You Have Two Choices: Choose Better Men or Treat Men Better
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Paul is 41-years-old, never married, but it’s not obvious why. He’s cute and boyish. He’s charming and successful. He’s fun to be around and is well-liked by strangers. Most importantly, Paul knows how to treat a woman – he’s interested, he listens, and he’s infinitely patient. Paul undoubtedly has good husband potential.
Unfortunately, Paul’s radar for picking women is a little off. He’s constantly drawn to the holy trinity of youth, beauty and intelligence.
As a result, he tends to date 29-year-old women who are way into their careers, their friends, and themselves. His latest girlfriend is named Kim. Paul fell for Kim because she’s so attractive and impressive, but Kim isn’t fully reciprocating.
Paul’s radar for picking women is a little off. He’s constantly drawn to the holy trinity of youth, beauty and intelligence.
They go out as a couple, they spend time together, they sleep together – and Paul loves every second of it – but he’s not quite sure if Kim does. Yes, she’s Paul’s girlfriend, but she doesn’t make him feel sexy, doesn’t make him feel needed, and doesn’t make him feel safe.
They fight too often. The silences are sometimes unbearable. The entire time they’re together, Paul walks on eggshells, hoping that Kim doesn’t break up with him.
Until, predictably, she does.
Paul couldn’t have been a better boyfriend. He was always generous with money, he always understood when Kim needed alone time or needed to cancel a date because of work. And now she’s gone, and Paul is not just sad, but PISSED.
He did everything in his power to treat Kim right and THIS is the thanks he gets?
In that moment, Paul concludes that he’s done with this crap. The next time he meets a woman, he’s not going to do ANY of that.
No more calling consistently.
No more paying for every dinner.
No more putting up with the demands of her career.
From now on, he’s not giving anything to a woman until she proves she’s worthy.
Believe me, Paul doesn’t want it to be this way, he just has no choice.
He can’t expend any more energy on unappreciative women for one second longer.
He’s done being a chump.
Now remember, Paul’s a good guy. A great boyfriend. He’s just been burned one too many times by a selfish woman. So he withdraws. Says he’s done with dating. And if he does date, she’s going to have to work very hard to prove she’s worthy, because he’s not going to give the way he did in the past with Kim.
Imagine you’re the next woman who meets Paul. He’s attractive and intelligent, all right, but he’s bruised. He wears it like a badge. He makes it really clear – whether he wants to or not – that he’s not going to be taken advantage of by a woman ever again.
How does this make you feel about Paul?
Certainly Paul is entitled to his pain and frustration, but YOU’RE not the one who caused it. And now you have to pay the price because KIM was selfish to him?
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79 Comments »Filed Under Dating, Relationships
Allison 1
I am addicted to this blog, Evan. Lately it seems like it’s having some tech problems, though– taking much longer to load than usual.
Ellen 2
You give good advice Evan but it presupposes everyone has the stomach to churn thru endless dates/relationships to find “the one”. I am as resilent as they come, but if you’re a giver like me you run out of gas eventually with men. I’m not paranoid or ready to whup ass on the next one, just tired.
My last online bf said to me early on “you’re not manipulative are you?” so I knew he had a wall or two. He was strange in that he would treat me well when we were together, but apart, not so much. Would ignore texts. Emotionally withdraw from time to time. Needed to be in control as to scheduling. Together we were dynamite though- always.
Part of the reason we were dynamite together, other than our great chemistry, was I did accept him, was playful, fun, non-judgmental (am in real life anyway). I could be affectionate and even loving with him in person, but by text or email and I think seeing it in writing scared him or something.
I knew I needed to move on, but he was my “respite” relationship. You know, put up with it ’cause it’s better than dating, starting over.
What I’ve learned over the years is 1) very few people are aware, truly aware. Very few men are into self introspection. Easier to just watch the tube, sports.
2) not everyone has love. People want to be loved sure, but not everyone has a real capacity for it. Some just can’t accept what you are giving either, just can’t. It’s a gift from God. Those who have it give it to those who don’t, basically. Transference.
Men I’ve noticed don’t really treat you all that well til they are in love. Just in my experience. So tough order…..
Online dating gets me beyond my karmic tribe and I have to wade thru the hoi polloi, so to speak, to find a decent boyfriend. It’s brutal. My karmic circle mostly consists of people like me- super loving, kind, respectful– so to participate in online dating where anything goes is a bit shocking, like being thrown in a cold lake on a winter’s day. lol
So I can either churn thru lots of men (and the emotional and possibly very negative health consequences of that) or try, hope! to interest a “good enough” man with the power of my love. ‘Cause my love is very powerful I think. Ellen in SC
Kimberly 3
Too sad that this happens often. Although he had a right to be angry at Kim and the next woman can choose to work at it or not, he also needs to look at why this is happening outside of himself. They are young, focused on their careers… Obviously not looking for a LTR but just for companionship. He needs to ask himself what he is looking for in a woman besides the attractiveness and impressive. He wants affection and reciprocation in generosity and feeling needed. Maybe it’s time to date someone older who is where he is in life…
Melissa 4
I definitely agree that being a giver is better. I have been divorced and dating for a year and a half now. I have encountered both types of men. Givers and takers.
While the taking men appreciate my giving and understanding, they do so only when it’s convenient for them.
The giving man appreciates me all the time and reciprocates my generosity.
The takers are desirable, but aren’t good relationship material. These men are good for casual flings if that is what you are into.
I’m much happier with the giving man. One that is consistent, loving, and trustworthy.
The right man will appreciate what you give to him.
What I’ve heard from the men that keep returning….is that no one makes them feel as good as I did. Evan is right…..it’s all about making the right man feel good. Emotionally…. Not in an sexual way…although that is important…most women can make a man feel good sexually. Emotionally is a different story altogether.
Jennifer 5
The title of this post says it all…it couldn’t be more true!!! Love this post Evan.
Trouble comes when you try to change a ‘not right for you’ man by treating him better- it just doesn’t work that way.
It’s so important not to become bitter- it only hurts you. My motto is don’t get mad, get gone!
Michelle 6
Excellent post Evan and 100% true. Apparently we are a rare breed, us women who get it and have learned and look for a quality man that we can be like this with.
What’s the definition of insanity? TRY something different, even if it’s out of your norm AND/OR out of one’s Karmic circle (love that term!)
Sorry to be so blunt Ellen, but when I read your post, I think the onus is on you, not on him (assuming he’s a man of good character and masculinity, and you’ve said nothing to the contrary). I think because of lack of patience, understanding of men and lack of empathy, you may have lost out on something that had potential. It sounds to me like you didn’t really accept him, sounds like he wasn’t one to communicate electronically, and you couldn’t accept that about him. He was really good to you when you were together, but that just didn’t meet your expectations, so therefore, there’s something wrong with HIM (not that your expectations were unreasonable given the person/MAN he is). Your post doesn’t say how long you dated, or if you communicated to him in a caring, loving, non accusatory way what your needs are, at an appropriate time in the relationship.
Finally, there’s a HUGE difference between being a ‘giver’ (nuturer is another word used) and being a ‘mother’, consistently invading his boundaries. Most women over function because they are doing it with an expectation to receive something back, they are not authentic, trying to get the man to see how valuable she is to him. Then they blame the man and get pissed at him for ‘all that she does for him’. Ironically, this is what the man in Evan’s post is all about as well. He’s trying so hard to get a woman to love him, he doesn’t even care about who she is or how she’s treating him–poor boundaries on his part.
Ultimately, we are all on our own path of growth and learning
, we’ll get there when we get there. I can honestly say though, thank God for all the resources out here that help us along the way–they present the reality of the world, it’s up to us to choose to accept the reality.
Ileana 7
Oh.My.God…. I read this post. And then re-readed. And re-readed it again. I’m gobsmacked. This information here… it is simply briliant. For me, a girl who doesn’t have so much experience with men, this blog post was an eye-opener. Maybe it was obvious for others, maybe it is common sense… i don’t know (but, who cares?). you just saved me from some terrible mistakes I would have made in the future.
Evan, you’re receiving loooong thankful virtual hug from me!
Laura 8
Love this post! I work hard to appreciate, adore, and show my boyfriend respect every day and I work even harder not to punish him for past boyfriends. I think it’s extremely important, like you said, to be a generous, playful, giving person. You just need to be selective about who you allow yourself to open up and give to. If a man doesn’t deserve the amazing and giving person you are, then find another who does. This is one of my favorite posts!
Helen 9
Honestly, I think Paul’s reaction in this (hypothetical?) scenario is rather silly and overly dramatic.
In almost every human relationship, one person cares more than the other about the relationship. It doesn’t always fall along gender lines, nor is it always static (although many times, who cares more vs. less is established fairly early). That doesn’t mean that one should immediately typecast the other person by gender, race, position, etc., and then vow to treat EVERYONE else in that same category carelessly so as to avoid getting hurt. That’s immature. Each individual should be taken for himself/herself.
And we should acknowledge that truth that in some relationships, we’re the more caring party, and in others, the less caring party. Sometimes this can hurt - but if we accept that this is just how things are, we have a better chance of not taking things too seriously or mistreating others through resentment.
Panda 10
Completely agree with poster 2 (Ellen) on her pov as I’m exactly in same situation.
Ileana 11
Whoops, i ment ‘re-read’
concentration lapse
Ray 12
In situations like these.. it is the ‘trust until you are given a reason not to trust’…
I give a new man I’m attracted to and appear to be compatible with the benefit of the doubt on many things… But life experience has shown me I’m also very good at sifting through BS.
all one can do in the dating world, business world, or any other world is offer one’s gift like a beautiful buffet. And if they choose not to partake or decide to be a dishonorable guest, you kindly show them the door.
Ray 13
… one question to Evan though. Why did you choose the 29 yr old vs 41 yr old dynamic? to create more drama on the posts? Of course, I’d argue that the 41 yr old guy was knocking himself out precisely because he valued her age and so-called beauty over any of her other qualities… so he needs to ‘man up’ (or woman up if the situation is in reverse) and realize that going for someone out of your league is naturally going to be a very high bar…. and in that scenario the best way to handle it is with a sense of humor. Like, K… that was a stretch… all I have is myself to blame for going after the 29 year old…
Jennifer 14
@Michelle #6
I see your point about Ellen’s post, but I came away with a different thoughts about her relationship. Even if the guy was no ‘wrong’ for the way he communicated when they were apart, it was wrong for her, and if she kept on giving while not getting what she needed, she would’ve felt increasingly used and unhappy (even though that probalby wasn’t his intention). So because she wasn’t happy with him, I don’t think there was any potential there.
@Ray #12
Exactly! I had a relationship where, when he did things that hurt me or that I felt were wrong, I tried all sorts of talking, convincing, cajoling, crying- and none of it worked (permanently anyway). With my last boyfriend, when I found that there were things that were going to make the relationship untenable for me, I didn’t try to change him. I simply said ‘no thank you’. Didn’t even have to raise my voice.
The end result is the same (relationships ended) but the lack of stress and bad feelings about it is completely different! I much prefer that to the ‘how can I try to change him’ drama.
Ann 15
Ellen@2: That was my experience, too, when I did OLD back in the day. So many men who seemed just into a very superficial existence, which translated into their dating behavior (deplorable). I couldn’t take it for very long–a few weeks tops, before I’d get off. And I’d go out with lots of guys from just a few weeks of being online, so it wasn’t just some small random sampling. I’ve always met better guys in real life, in a context, which maybe kept bad behavior in check. Even then, though, dating was simply brutal. No question.
EMK: Like the role reversal in the post. Very effective!! I also liked it when in another post you asked “would you want to date you?” Similar idea. Also, takes it out of the annoying gender wars. Being a decent person and treating people decently (rising above the dating fray) is good advice for all of us. Even those of us who are in couples, because in a way a relationship is like one great big long date.
Michelle 16
#14 Jennifer
Unfortunately, we don’t know how long they dated. If they made it through to an exclusive relationship (where they actually decided they were both in an exclusive relationship, not assumed), and she had calmly communicated to him that she enjoyed hearing from him inbetween their dates, that she noticed he doesn’t seem to be into electronic communication, and ask how could they stay in touch–and he ignored her–then I would agree, he’s not the right man. If he was the type of man to ignore her in general and not want to make his girl happy, then that would come out in other ways, and she said he was good to her and they had a great time when they were together. So things are not jibing…
Most people are poor communicators, especially women. I have a lot of sympathy for men.
There’s definitely something that she’s doing to have the impression that men don’t treat women well until they are in love. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Again, it’s a woman’s expectations and lack of patience. MATURE men don’t commit easily.
For some reason, that post really struck a cord with me. She doesn’t want a decent boyfriend, she wants a perfect boyfriend–and there’s a lot of lonliness in that.
#15 Ann
Great point on treating others like we would want to be treated, and it is a big long date! I’m a relatively new couple, so good thing to keep in mind.
I agree that on line dating can be frustrating and discouraging, but it’s the BEST way to bring up the numbers and meet people you would normally not meet. Keeps you in the game. It seems worse than what it is because we’re exposed to that many more people, so the ‘bad’ expereinces are going to be more. I’d rather have that though then JUST relying on meeting someone organically (and I’ve done both over the past 5 years). It only takes one.
Michael 17
“Bruising” happens a lot–but I have to say that far more women than men are bruised. Just study the online profiles. SO many women listing demands: NO PLAYERS NO CHEATERS NO this… NO that… NO NO…
Laura S. 18
I believe the secret to not becoming burnt and bitter is to not give more than you can emotionally afford to give. If it’s not reciprocated, then stop it! Why make yourself emotionally exhausted over a person who does not give back?
Seek balance.
Goldie 19
Thank you Evan, I needed to see this post. Early on in my marriage, I gave, gave, and gave (like most of us do when we first start out). Boy was I shocked when, first, I got nothing in return, and then, I started getting yelled at when I could no longer give enough (having two kids 2.5 years apart can do this to you). Since then, I’ve been having a hard time giving it all, getting emotionally attached, and otherwise making myself emotionally vulnerable. It is pretty scary to keep giving when you were already punished for it once. Your post reminds me that this is something I need to continue working on. I’m changing my attitude now, though. Through my own experiences this year, I’ve come to the same conclusion you’re telling us about in this post – give the man the benefit of the doubt, be the best you can be, take it one day at a time, and enjoy the experience. And if I see that, because of the way he treats me, the experience is not enjoyable, then I wish him the best, and walk. I probably couldn’t have walked early in my marriage, at least not that easily — there were young kids involved; first I was out of work, then he was; we had no money and couldn’t afford to split up, etc etc. — but now, with the men I date, I do not have any of these problems.
The first time I tried to be giving and generous, since I started dating after my divorce, it ended badly. I got played. But, surprisingly enough, in the end, that was where most of my learning came from. I asked myself, if I am giving, open, etc. to the man, what’s the worst that can happen? — I get taken advantage of, right? — so, the worst that can happen, already did, and I survived it, even though I was completely unprepared when it hit me. So I figured, if I live in the moment, take it one day at a time, do not plan too far into the future, but at the same time do not ignore the red flags when they’re staring me in the face (like I did with my little player friend), I’ll do fine in the end. So far, this has been working better than I’d expected. I met a few people that I really liked, but it was evident from their actions that they’d hurt me if I stayed with them, so we parted ways, very amicably I must add. I also met someone that I didn’t have wild chemistry with at the beginning, but the person treated me like gold, and we consistently had a great time together, so we’re still together as of now
@ Helen #9 — I’m pretty sure “Paul” is doing it unconsciously. He’s just putting up defenses so he doesn’t end up being hurt again. He may not even realize he’s doing this. Though, as a responsible adult, of course he should.
Goldie 20
Apologize for the double comment, I wanted to reply to Ellen’s:
I just stopped and asked myself — if my player can have tons of fun meeting new women every week, why can’t I? I’ve got to be a better people person than he is! I know I have respect for people, and genuine interest in them — time to start living it out.
“to participate in online dating where anything goes is a bit shocking, like being thrown in a cold lake on a winter’s day. lol So I can either churn thru lots of men (and the emotional and possibly very negative health consequences of that) …”
That was another learning I took away from my bad experience earlier this year — not to think of dating as, you know, an icy bath on a winter’s day, “churning through lots of men” etc. — instead, I started looking at it as a process of meeting new people, hearing their stories, learning about their lives, their interests, what makes them tick. Even if we never make it past the first date, it is an exciting experience, because everyone has something cool to share. Looking at dating this way, you end up with a rich tapestry of dudes
Another thing is, I like to write as a side hobby (when I have time), but new stories and ideas, and characters, are so difficult to come up with. Dating provides you an enormous amount of material. All you have to do is show up, pay attention to the guy, and listen to what he has to say. Even if he is a horrible match, at the end of the night, you come home with a new story. My guy friend (who’s also been out dating this year) and I, made a pact that we’ll both write our dating stories down. And then, who knows? Maybe one day we’ll combine a few of our dates into one character, add a few of their life stories, put a good spin on it, and come up with a new bestseller! Anything is possible.
helene 21
Maybe its an age thing, but I have to say I don’t recognse this portrait of the selfish, withholding diva-like girlfriend in any of the women that I know. Traditionally, women are brought up to be givers, wheras men are not. This is not men’s fault, but I think there is some truth in it. Thus, I have to say that I agree with whoever said that generally men do not treat women particularly well until they are in love. Because of this, although I agree with Evan that it is important for us women not to become, supicious, mistrustful and withholding, I think in general we are in more danger of going too far the other way. For me, the key to giving is to offer an appropriate level of openness, support and generosity for the level of the relationship, and always ALWAYS to proceed on the basis of recipricocity. So on a first, second or third date, a woman should “give” in the sense of expressing appreciation for the food and the venue he has chose (even if its not very good) but should not be offering immediately to cook him dinner and parcel up the leftovers for him. Once into the early stages of an exclusive relationship, it is fine to help him pick out a birthday gift for his sister if he requests your help – it is NOT ok to offer to go off and trail round the Mall yourself to get her gift while he stays home and watches sport on TV. For that’ you’d have to be married(!) and even then, don’t make a habit of it! At this time of year, how many women do we see running ragged around the stores buying gifts for the entire extended family – including HIS side? I have NEVER received a gift from my brother in law that HE has gone to the trouble of choosing and shopping for – and my brother in law’s a nice guy!
Ann 22
Goldie@20: This is great– “I’ve got to be a better people person than he is!”
Helene@21: Sad, but true. Very true.
Mr. Right 23
Yeah… I hear ya about the pillows. Once you get married, it’s like they breed like rabbits.
SJZ 24
Wow Ellen #2
Could not have said it better myself!
Daisy 25
I am naturally a giver, however I tend to complain and criticise my exes & dates a lot. My current boyfriend recognises this, and thankfully, rather than simply run away like what my exes did, he told me about it and would remind me every time i complain too much and become unappreciative of him. We’ve been together for almost 2 years now, and over the last year I have become a much better girlfriend by being a giver & by being thankful and appreciative of him
This turnaround actually made him want to do so much more for me, like buy me or make me some sweet little thoughtful gifts, cook me dinner, etc. Lately we’ve been in a long distance relationship (him in new zealand and me in southeast asia), and he never fails to write me a letter (yes, snail mail!) every single week!! Im so grateful & so lucky to have him!
cherry 26
maybe she’s not the right girl for you..don’t be hard on your self..what if the next girl will be your destiny?or serious in having relationship on you?not all people are like your ex- girlfriend. hurting is always connected to love.i know that it really hurts but you can overcome with this when you find your true love.
vallleyforgelady 27
There is a big difference between age 29 and 41. Do you think this guy could be a attracted to a 41 year old single Mom with a couple of kids, a demanding job, and 10 extra pounds? No…..he goes out of hiis league and complains that it did not work. Duh!
The girl is probably complaining that he is so scattered, immature, not rich. cool well dressed, and not dying to give her a couple of credit cards , a big house, and two kids in the best suburb.
Get Real!!!!!
Ria 28
But l have a question – what if Paul is not attracted to *givers*? What if Paul is one of those gus who say: “At the end of the day l cant help who lm attracted to?”
monica 29
Your relationship between you and your wife reminds me of my own relationship with my boyfriend. He always takes me to nice dinners, walks me to my apartment even when he invited me to eat to at his place, and constantly tells me how lucky he is to be with me. I, in return, help him study, buy tickets for hockey games, make him dinner, and send him sweet cards to work.
I had to be patient though, it had been 6 years since my last relationship, but I kept dating and putting myself out there because I knew it was just a matter of time.
Ellen 30
not that I care that much, but for the record-
Michelle above wrote: “Sorry to be so blunt Ellen, but when I read your post, I think the onus is on you, not on him (assuming he’s a man of good character and masculinity, and you’ve said nothing to the contrary). I think because of lack of patience, understanding of men and lack of empathy…..”
I clearly stated I did accept him in every way EXCEPT ignoring my texts, going awol for days at a time, despite 7 months together, STEADILY dating I might add. That is insulting, cold behavior and I couldn’t tolerate it the second time it happened. To be successful, most ldrs require near daily contact…..So I am not a doormat: we broke up once over this issue (so the little jerk knew it was important to me), got back together, but the second time he was that brutal to me I left.
So I am following Evan’s advice in terms of not putting up with bad behavior, but I always (which may be a mistake, but hey, I have patience! I have empathy in spades, always have) give the man PLENTY of time to prove himself, am very patient imo, always give them the benefit of the doubt (maybe he’s busy, tired, needs time to emotionally bond, etc. ) before deciding he is “a good man, but not a good boyfriend”. To that effect I gave this man 7 months! And as one friend put it “you must have been doing something right to get a man to drive over 2 hrs. round-trip to see you for 7 months despite a new job, moving, overseas travel, etc.”. Plus he was 17 years my junior…..
To say I was accommodating is perhaps THE understatement of the 21st Century folks. But I don’t allow myself- ever- to become a doormat. Know too many women who do.
Men seldom return the favor btw (give ME the benefit of the doubt or try to understand MY emotional needs). So, yeah, I am a giver and most of the guys I’ve been dating have been takers I guess. In this world, that is not at ALL unusual….I am going out this weekend with an age-appropriate counselor, so maybe at long last I’ll have a sympathetic ear.
And yeah, I will admit I am this close- say, 1/4 of an inch folks- from becoming bitter.
Also, another long-term, mostly online (IM, texts, phone calls, lots of phone calls) friend (3 years! Wonderful, strong character, good heart, hugely successful in government) has been back in touch and ready to take me on as a long distance (3 hrs. drive) girlfriend. We emotionally bonded a long time ago, but logistics have kept us apart, though business takes him my way occasionally. So apparently I have the patience, empathy, love and all the rest to keep another man interested in me for THREE years, if only at a distance, platonically for now. He texted me yesterday “I have HUGE respect” for you Ellen.
Finally, re patience, empathy, understanding men* etc., have you been in two long-term relationships like I have, once for 9 years, the other for 25!? I think I’ve more than proven I can hold my own in LONG TERM relationships, thank you very much. lol
*PLUS two older brothers AND I was my Dad’s favorite, so yeah, I understand men fairly well. I recommend Louanne Brizendine’s (USC, Harvard I think, brilliant woman) books on the male and female brains btw. They and Evan’s blog have helped me so much.
Greg 31
@Helene
Many men ARE givers. Women should reciprocate. If a good man is really interested in you than he will want to give his best and provide. My mom can’t believe that some women bend over backwards buying things for men, and giving men all of their time and energy while the man shows little real initiative or interest. Most of these women are being foolish thinking that by giving the man everything he will want them. It never works. Let the man show that he cares about you first. Then reciprocate it by showing appreciation. That works best. Women who complain that men aren’t giving are always the ones who are still single, giving their all chasing after unavailable and selfish men.
Greg 32
@Ellen #2
My mom would tell you to stop chasing men who don’t love you. Meet lots of men like Evan has always suggested, but let them show that they love you. Otherwise you will just be disappointed and end up feeling used. It’s pretty clear that your last online bf didn’t love you. He wouldn’t withdraw emotionally if he did.
And even if your love is as powerful as you claim it to be, you can’t use it to “interest” a man. Save your powerful love for a man who shows by his actions that he loves you 1st. Then you will be able to reciprocate and have a wonderful relationship, and you won’t run out of love gas!
I love Evan’s blog because he gives the same advice that my “old fashioned” mom gives. My parents are still married and very happy so the advice does work. It’s funny how all the women who get angry when they hear the truth from Evan are still not getting any better results.
Dan 33
Last night, I was at a holiday party. I talked to a guy, probably 38-41 who had his own ad agency business. He told me that he sees young hot models all day because that is his business, but he was not interested in them. He wants someone he can talk to intelligently. Then he says his last girlfriend was 23. She was a hot model, but they had nothing to talk about. Then he says that he’d like to get married and have kids some day. Then he adds that he’d like a woman that does not use him for his money. I picked up a lot in the time we talked. He sounded like a real life “Paul” from EMK’s blog here. He also sounded like he has a huge check list.
I think if a woman treated the guy I met last night the way EMK recommends, he would come around and be interested in marriage and family and all. That’s my gut feeling as a guy. So EMK’s comments are pretty well spot on there.
But I should add that my gut instinct about the guy I met last night also tells me that while he had a lot going for him financially and in style and confidence, he might have some issues of his own that could make a relationship with a woman challenging. So you could do all the right things and still find the wrong person.
Just sharing a real life situation that relates to this blog, and from a guy’s perspective.
Joe 34
@ valleyforgelady #27:
So because Paul is 41, he needs to limit his dating pool to 41 year old single moms?
Ellen 35
PS: While we are on the topic, my favorite Meher Baba quotes on Love and living in the moment:
Happiest is he who expects no happiness from others. Love delights and glorifies in giving, not receiving. So learn to love and give, and not to expect anything from others.
Real happiness lies in helping others. (my all time favorite and how I try to live)
Love and happiness are important.
LOVE is essentially self-communicative: those who do not have it catch it from those who have it
Live more and more in the Present, which is ever beautiful and stretches away beyond the limits of the past and the future.
Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach for Women Over 40 36
This is a great post because it addresses people who over-give and then get angry. Giving is important Evan, I agree. And so is Receiving. A lot of women are so busy giving, they forget about reciprocity until they get to the super angry point. Why give to someone who doesn’t appreciate your efforts?
@valleyforgewoman#27
I also think ValleyForgeWoman has a good point. This works both ways – for women who insist on trying to date the top 5% of men AND for men who insist on dating only the top 5% of women who are younger. For singles of either sex, if you can widen your criteria and aim for 7′s and 9′s, not 10′s, you will find a warmer pool of wonderful human beings who are ready for love, good at relationships and serious about commitment like you are.
Heidi 37
THANK YOU. I’m sick of hearing “Good guys finish last” from really bitter guys who have been treated badly by women. Of course, women are equally guilty of saying something like that too. Different guy friends that I’ve had know that when they say anything like that to me, my only response is “No, your picker is just broken.”
Ann 38
Dan@33: If the guy is 38-41 and he says he wants to get married and have kids “someday,” then he is not seriously thinking about marriage and kids. By the time he gets around to picking someone to create family with, a guy in that age range would have to go seriously younger. So maybe he’s right to be hanging out with the younger crowd if he isn’t ready. Risky, of course. Because maybe the hot young thing wouldn’t want to settle down with a guy 20 years older than she is. She probably has a lot of options.
But I disagree with one thing you said–no female behavior is going to get a guy to “come around” and ”get interested in marriage.” A person either wants it or he/she doesn’t, and it is completely that person’s choice and responsibility.
Blonde 39
Hi there!
I have a question for Evan, at what point in a relationship/after you begin dating a guy do you start displaying such characteristics/actions? I’m naturally a very giving and thoughtful person, I love bringing a smile to someone’s face, be it a surprise coffee or coming across that something I know someone would love and gifting it to them ‘just because’. The last guy that I dated for any length of time was for about 7 weeks. From the beginning we would touch base everyday and we hung out a few times a week. So after about a month when I noticed he really needed something for his home, I just got it for him (a bit of a bigger gift than the odd little things up to then, batteries, lighters etc, just what I would notice he would be out of). This seemed to make him uncomfortable as he wasn’t comfortable with getting such a gift, I convinced him to keep it though and he was very happy. However, soon thereafter it turned out he “wasn’t ready for a relationship”.
My beef is the following: I feel like if I hold back on my giving nature then I’m not really being myself and therefore “he”‘s not getting to know the real me. I don’t like this whole tit for tat and I never do anything expecting something in return, I do it for the joy of giving. I know you say to let the guy chace you, would that include in the generosity department too? Should we hold off on giving until he shows this first? Somehow that still feels like a game…which I’m not very good at. I don’t play hard to get, I’m very upfront and honest, which recently I’ve been told is intimdating, that it may scare guys since they think if I’m like that at the beginning it’ll only get worse the more comfortable I get. This isn’t the case however because I’m me no matter what (worked hard to get there) and now it seems I have to pull back to not scare them off? [[as a side note, I get a lot of interest from the opposite sex, attracting them isn't a problem, but having only ever been in long relationships in my 20's, and those became exclusive etc very quickly, I have no idea how to go from the first date to boyfriend/girlfriend, that seems to be where things fall apart, perhaps Evan, you might simply say I haven't met the one? However I just want to make sure I don't scare him off before he sees how awesome I am!! I have this on good authority
]]
Laura 40
Blonde: “Never travel faster in love then he does”. Meaning, let him be the first one to gift you, call you, ask you on a date, say I love you, etc. I wouldn’t buy gifts for a guy until a while into an exclusive relationship (except birthday and Christmas of course). In the beginning, you give in non-material ways such as showing appreciation, admiring his masculine traits, cooking him dinner once in a while. Don’t give more than he does though until you’re in an exclusive relationship. Just let him set the pace in dating and give to you (and then you can give back to him).
Saint Stephen 41
@Valleyforgelady (#27)
It’s awkward to say john is dating out of his league, cos i really don’t see any much difference between 41 to 29.
And what makes you assume that a 41 yo extra pounds single mum with a demanding job and probably some baggages from failed relationships will be a better marriage/relationship prospects for Paul?
If Paul is interested in starting a family, he’ll still be chasing the younger herds of women till he finds one mutually interested/compatible.
@Ann
While is very true that a hot twenty something yo woman has a lot of options, you seem to be forgetting that exercising that lot of options also includes getting married to a successful 40yo man if she wants. And believe me it does happen.
justme 42
Goldie (19).
I also was the giver in my 18 year marriage. I gave and gave and gave. He wasn’t a giver. When I finally was reaching my breaking point in giving, he found a woman who claimed she could give him more, he left and we divorced. Interestingly, she doesn’t give at all. He does the giving in their relationship. I struggle too because I am sure I can do that again. I didn’t give to keep score and keep track – I gave because I loved him. When it became apparent that my giving was for naught, I was . . . so sad. I suspect that the next time around, I will hold back a little.
Laura 43
Ladies, it’s not about holding back your giving when you’re in an exclusive relationship, it’s about committing to a man who is capable of giving to you just as much as you give to him. If you’re doing all the work and he is not lifting a finger, then you need to question why you are committing to this man. A good man will be giving to you in not only material ways, but in time, affection, love, and making sure you are protected and happy. If he’s not doing that, then you shouldn’t be committed or giving to him. Be selective of who you allow yourself to be open and vulnerable and giving to. Once you find a man who’s good and has committed to an exclusive relationship with you, then you are free to give to your hearts content. Don’t hold back on giving in your next relationship because you chose a man who wasn’t capable of having a healthy and mature relationship and just took from you. That’s not a grown and masculine man, that’s a “peter pan” man who wants you to mother him.
JB 44
As Evan states, dating is a market, there is no point aiming for the top percentile unless you are in that percentile as well. It isn’t that hard to figure out. The problem is women most women want a man who is taller, stronger, smarter, wealthier, funnier etc. There are only so many to go around. If you want to date out of your league you have to do the pursuing and deal with any rejection(like men do).
Just my two cens
Blonde 45
@Laura, Thanks for your advice! Definitely not very natural for me, but I’m also not one to keep trying the same thing and hope for different results, so I’ll try that.
Just to note since I didn’t specify, we were exclusive the whole time and seeing each other regularly and touching base everyday, so I thought we had reached that point. I guess not, I’ll work on my patience
SS 46
Blonde,
I think what Ronnie said in #36 is the message that you should take from this experience, giving is great, but receiving is equally as good. People who like to give, give and give some more (not just romantically) often find themselves being drained or being continually expected and asked to give more because that’s the expectation that person has set. That’s not healthy… a natural giving/receiving cycle is much more healthy and beneficial to both partners.
Just reading your post, I felt smothered by all that you did for this man and I’m not even him! You came off like his mom, looking around his house and seeing things he needed and buying them… this wasn’t even your boyfriend. I can understand why he put a stop to the progression of the relationship because it was just too much… he might have ended it anyway, but I find that when guys feel that a woman is acting too motherly or too girlfriend-y before they’ve had a chance to make up their minds about their feelings, they’ll cut ties simply to get out of an uncomfortable situation. All that giving makes them feel that their hand is being forced.
And please, stop with the “I don’t want to play games/I’m just so nice and giving by nature” thing. There’s a reason they call this the mating dance… anytime two people interact, no one is going to be putting their cards on the table or being completely upfront at the very beginning, nor should they. The dating process should constantly be one of discovery, one in which the person is learning new things about the other each time they see each other. All of this gift-giving and “openness” does is scare people off, because it can come off as an act of desperation.
I’m not Evan, but I think you just need to dial it waaaay back and take things down more than a notch. And learn how to be a receiver… having a giving nature should not always be portrayed as a positive thing, which I find many women (and I am one) tend to do.
Laura 47
@Blonde: Even when you’re exclusive, I wouldn’t buy him little things right away. Give back to him in more feminine ways like cooking him dinner, picking up theater tickets, helping him clean, and buying a round of drinks or something like that. I personally wouldn’t be gift giving (except for birthday/holidays) until half a year together or more. It’s super thoughtful of you to buy him little things like batteries and stuff, but hold back on that. Instead lavish him in admiration, attention, respect, and domestic things like cooking.
helene 48
For those who find it hard to hold back on giving, think of it like this: sometimes NOT giving can be the generous thing to do . If you buy a guy lightbulbs or batteries or whatever things are missing at his apartment, whilst you might see this as helpful, he might take it as a criticism: “Oh no, she noticed only one of the bedside lamps has a lightbulb in it! I was hoping she wouldn’t notice that. She must think I’m useless at looking after the place!” Buying things that are lacking at a guy’s place (or ANYBODY’S place) is a no-no…. If you were invited to some friends’ house for the weekend and they had run out of soap, or salt, or didn’t have very nice towels laid out for you in your room, you wouldn’t buy them some as a thank you gift, would you??! That would just be tactless. Think of it this way and it may help you curb the urge to buy things and do things for guys that they don’t seem to be managing to get round to for themselves. Channel your generosity into showing appreciation for what he DOES do and DOES have “Wow, what a cool…. nintendo DS consul…/dvd collection” and he will feel much more warmly towards you and a lot less smothered.
Greg 49
These responses prove that my mom was right. Let the man give first and then show genuine appreciation. If you do this you won’t get burned out or hurt. All the women I know who are the givers in their relationship eventually get dumped and hurt. The men were just using them until they found something better. Men don’t need your gifts. All my female friends in successful relationships were eagerly pursued by the man, who wanted to give them anything he could. The women reciprocated and showed how much they appreciated it by being kind and supportive These women are now happily married. If a man really wants you he will take the lead.
Raina 50
Women know when a man is attracted to them because of their youth, so they don’t need to give anything to this man. I don’t fault the woman who Paul dated for dumping him. If he’s just blindly following his biological imperatives to choose younger women, that doesn’t necessarily warrant my sympathy for Paul. And it shouldn’t make him think that women are untrustworthy. Instead, Paul should think this: I am a man and therefore I am attracted to younger women based on pure wiring reasons. It does not make objective sense that anyone I know should be sympathetic to this. It’s just a fact of life, and everyone should accept it like we accept that the sky is blue. Women want to be chosen and appreciated for more than looks, so I shouldn’t really feel that pissed when a woman who I chose for looks doesn’t feel like she needs to do more in return for me. After all, she is doing enough by allowing me to be in her presence. My choice was to share my resources with her, and if she didn’t want them, it’s not her fault. I should really learn how to deal with my wiring so I can make better choices if what I’m really seeking is nurturing and empathy. If I’m seeking beauty, then by paying to be around a woman who is beautiful, I’ve gotten what I wanted from her, her beauty, and that was a fair deal.
Women should learn how to show men their true value apart from looks. You don’t dump guys who treat you like a burned version of Paul (who is a baby is my book). You should retrain their brains to make them appreciate your qualities more than they initially can based on their biological limitations. Following advice like ‘dump the guy’ will only leave you alone and single, unfortunately.
Blonde 51
Hi all
So first off I want to thank you all for the time you took to respond to my dating woes/questions. I really appreciate you taking time out of your day, it’s really opened my eyes in a new way!!
@SS I think you are right in saying I may not be great at receiving, I have to admit I’m not overly used to it and do love when it happens. Thank you for your honesty and bluntness, your message did make me laugh! Rest assured, I don’t snoop around people’s homes to figure out what needs fixing, it’s more if a couple times I see the guy getting annoyed cause he can’t find something (said batts), then next time I’m at the grocery checkout and see them, I pick some up! These small things were very appreciated! (And I’m careful re the item that it doesn’t point out me having noticed some sort of potentially embarrassing short coming!) It’s not something that takes much effort on my part, nor stresses me. I disagree with your last statement that being a giver isn’t a positive thing, but that’s ok, to each their own!
@Laura, thank you for the suggestions
I think it was partly bad timing because his bday just so happened to be around that time and I had just come back from a trip (one where, to my surprise, he called everyday), so it was probably too much all at once as well. Definitely noted, no “gifts”, rather gestures (he didn’t let me pay for much when we went out though). It’s interesting because I thought helping him around the house would be more personal than giving a purchased item, but I can see what you’re getting at as in, play up the feminine side and let him be the provider.
My main challenge with this dating stuff is figuring out how the guy “should” behave/treat you in those first few months, should I call him after a few weeks too or is it all on him still etc. My previous bf’s were guys I already knew in some capacity so the route was very different than with a guy I’ve just met and we know nothing about each other. I think you’ve all given me some great advice to implement whenever the next time is. I will try being generous by letting HIM do more first and letting him pursue me more. Thank you all !!
Sarahrahrah! 52
@Blonde and other “givers”:
I am a woman, but I get turned off by a lot of giving by guys, too. While I like a moderate amount, I run whenever it seems out of proportion to our relationship level or takes away from my agency.
Here is an example: a guy that I have regularly dated frequently gets me things that he thinks I need. This is uncomfortable to me because it makes me feel like I’m “lacking” in some way (another poster commented on this) and it also makes me feel like a loser to some degree. In other words, he keeps beating me to projects. I grew up with a (s)mother who overdid things and didn’t allow me to make a lot of decisions growing up. I had to do a lot of cord cutting in order to grow up and establish firm personal boundaries as an adult. Even now, she buys gifts for me that she assumes that I need (I rarely need them and I do not like her taste) and then checks in with me about them! I find it to be annoying. So if I have a boyfriend that starts to do anything like this, it is a huge turn off for me. This also goes for gifts that are useful that I could buy for myself. If one can afford to buy something useful oneself, then I assert that others shouldn’t buy something like that for him or her. The individual is the best person to know what he/she needs and likes. Everyone has different tastes and priorities and when we assume to know what other people want, we are overstepping healthy relationship boundaries, imho.
I share all of this because I know that I’m not the only one with (s)mother issues. I think moms are actually more likely to (s)mother their sons, so I would really err on the side of caution with gift giving, esp. with guys. Also, the more a guy feels empowered in a relationship, the more sexy he will feel with you. This is the central premise behind the “why men love bitches” books. While I don’t think we have to go so far as to be “bitches,” I think there is a lot of wisdom in making sure that your man never confuses you with his mother! ;)
nathan 53
This whole let the man set the pace in giving argument is just another game being offered to try to help women not get hurt. Furthermore, it really just adds to the list of things guys are “supposed” to do first, with the underlying assumption that those who aren’t doing all these things must be defective, manipulative, or some other rotten thing.
People need to take responsibility for themselves in relationships, and stop relying on old gender narratives to protect them. Men who expect women to give and support them constantly need to grow up. And women who expect men to jump through some set of giving hoops to prove they’re worthy need to grow up as well.
Ann 54
St Stephen@41: Yes, it does happen, but not as often as the 41-year-old guys seem to think it does. As in–not that often. Acc to US Census, most people marry someone who is within 2 years of their own age. Which to me is the same age, basically.
Ann 55
Kudos to Raina@50 and Nathan@53!!!
AQ 56
I agree and am about to find out – thank you for such a great article. Again.
Michele 57
The thing that’s upsetting about Paul is that hypothetically he won’t give a woman age 30 and up a chance. I know a “Paul” like this in real life and I would want to be with him (or a man close to this description), but I’m 36. He likes younger women more. I can understand the fertility issue, but why don’t men like this give good 30-something girls like me a chance.
Ray 58
Only in the fantasy world that is online dating do men persist in believing they can get women more than a few years younger than them. Sure, they might get the ‘young thing’ if all they care about is age. She will likely come with a host of behavioral ‘daddy’ issues or just want him for his money. If he’s ok with that, then go ahead.
The best of any ‘crop’ of men or women want someone close to their own age. And when I say ‘best’, I say people who are looking for genuine compatibility, who are mentally, physically, and emotionally healthy. All of my long-married friends are married to people very close to their own age. Within a few years.
When I was doing OLD, I never responded to emails from men outside of my posted age range. Either above or below.
So, men like Paul can keep knocking themselves out for much younger women who see them as GFN (good for now) guys. Or they can take a look in the mirror and realize they aren’t ‘all that’ and find happiness with a woman their own age… and also realize that their breeding days are coming to a close. Just like 41 year old women are forced to do.
Michelle 59
#48–great way of framing the issue! Buying things like lightbulbs and batteries is being motherly, men don’t want mothers (like was stated, she’s sending a message that he can’t take of himself). This is where women need to really examine their behavior–are they being motherly to make the man see how indispensible she is? How could he ever get along without her? How could he ever leave her? If I do this for him, then he’ll do that for me. This will get him to love me. It’s invading his boundary and more importantly, it’s controlling. Often we’re not thinking outwardly that this is what we’re doing, but if one looks deeply, treating an adult man like this has something to do with one or more of the above. And please don’t use the the excuse that about being caring and nurturing. There are plenty of women in their 40′s and beyond who have done this time and time again, and are still single.
#49–Greg, excellent post and right on! Took me a long time to come to terms with this, and to be PATIENT to first find a man that would do that for me, and let to actually let him do those things on his timeframe, not mine. While everything is playing out, I’m busy with my own life.
SS 60
Blonde… glad you weren’t too upset with my message! I felt a little bad after I wrote it, but I was thinking about women I know (NOT like you) who go even more overboard and accept totally jerky behavior from men and STILL want to help those men when they get in a bind. They say things like, “I guess I just have a good heart/kind heart.” And I’m thinking, oh geez, stop it… stop trying to make yourself into this noble person when the real deal is that you’re letting yourself be a doormat!
)
(I just don’t want you to get into doormat territory later on, Blonde!
So that’s what I meant with my last line. But hey, that’s just my opinion and we don’t have to agree. Best of luck with your next relationship!
(And no, I didn’t think you went around snooping trying to find flaws with your boyfriends’ apartments/homes)
SS 61
@Michelle 59
It’s invading his boundary and more importantly, it’s controlling. Often we’re not thinking outwardly that this is what we’re doing, but if one looks deeply, treating an adult man like this has something to do with one or more of the above. And please don’t use the the excuse that about being caring and nurturing.
Yes! This is the point I was trying to make in my post @46 when I said that having a giving nature should not always been seen as a positive thing. While one could say that the giver typically means well (I think Blonde is one of those women who do), giving could also be a manipulative and controlling move… or it could be a way for someone to excuse his or her tendency to be a pushover and a doormat… I know a lot of women who put up with bad behavior and try to explain it away by saying they just have giving natures. But if you really talk to them, you find that many of them are hoping that by giving, the man they want will respond with more “love.” (These are people I know.) That’s not a healthy response.
In my case, I find that my husband isn’t all that big on getting gifts. (He prefers other methods of showing appreciation, caring and concern.) However, he likes to get gifts for me. I will get him gifts, but often he’ll just tell me something he would like and I eventually will surprise him with it… but just seeing a random item at the mall and buying it for him doesn’t really do much for him. I found too with other men that I dated that they really didn’t care that much about receiving things from women, but liked giving things to women. I think as long as the special woman in their lives (an actual girlfriend or wife, not someone they were just dating) gave them a gift every once in a while — and one that was meaningful — then they were fine. But to be showered with gifts? Not really… and they got very uncomfortable when a woman they were just dating casually would buy them something (especially in those first 1-3 months of dating). Even if his birthday or Christmas fell in the early stages, if the gift was something that was expensive or large, the man typically felt way uncomfortable.
Greg 62
@Michelle
And what’s really sad is that some dirt-bag guys revel in the fact that they can get a woman to run all over town doing everything for them buying them food, medicine etc. It’s really embarrassing to me how pathetic some of the women are making themselves look. Yet these men will admit that they have absolutely no plans to commit to the woman. One person I know had his drivers license suspended and had a woman offer to drive him all around town (she wanted to be his GF). She should have made him take the bus or get a ride from his friends. Needless to say he didn’t want her and she got very upset and hurt. So yes Michelle I agree with you 100% especially when you said “please don’t use the the excuse about being caring and nurturing.” If a woman wants to act like the guys mom then she must be interested in dating a boy. Actually when I think about it all the dirt-bag guys who employ these tactics are very immature and terrible relationship material. Of course they knew how to push all the emotional buttons that made the women want to be with them anyway.
As a side note, the women who pretended to be the most “independent” were usually the ones who fell for this trap the most. I really loved this quote from Michelle
“This is where women need to really examine their behavior–are they being motherly to make the man see how indispensible she is? How could he ever get along without her? How could he ever leave her? If I do this for him, then he’ll do that for me. This will get him to love me. It’s invading his boundary and more importantly, it’s controlling.”
These woman are usually afraid to get hurt so they want to control the relationship by having the ability to withdraw all “helpful giving” when things go south. However it backfires. They get emotionally involved and when they finally “put their foot down” and threaten to leave one of two things usually happen. Either the man doesn’t care and the woman gets super upset that he “didn’t even notice all she’s done for him”, or he misses the freebies enough to offer a lame apology and pretend to change for a few weeks and she takes him back. The women eventually resent the men for this and then usually go on to accuse all men of being selfish.
So please don’t waste your resources on men who don’t show how much they love you first. I know plenty of men who are willing to show love and be unselfish givers (father, grandfather & friends)!
Saint Stephen 63
This give and take action also goes both ways. If you are a man who’s giving and the woman doesn’t show any sign of reciprocation then you should dump her fast. She’s just into you for the freebies she receives.
I’ve seen a lot of men getting burned for being chivalrous and then decides to be miserly as a form gauging a woman’s level of interest in them.
Goldie 64
@ St Stephen, it is not about the material form of giving. It is more about, can I count on him being there for me if I’m hit by a truck tomorrow? can I count on him being there for our children if they’re born next year? that type of thing. If I’m busting my arse around the house, and he just sits there watching TV, and this happens every single day, then how can I rely on this guy to support me if things get tough?
I like Laura’s comments on this one, esp #43. I think it’s important to see, not how much he gives to you, or how much you give to him, but how well the two of you are working on things together as a team. Otherwise, you can just end up with each side making sacrifices that the other side doesn’t want and has never asked for. Like those batteries. Sorry to use you as an example Blonde, and FTR I do not think you were being intentionally controlling — I think you meant well and were trying to help. It’s just, the batteries can send the wrong message, like you don’t trust him to remember to buy his own batteries when he needs them. Being in awe of his amazing housekeeping skills, and not questioning his ability to buy batteries as needed, is also a form of giving, BTW
mellie charnalia 65
I have a question to contemplate in response to the blog and all the responses. And it has to do with me being a giver.
So, from Evan, I’ve really learned a lot about how important *consistency* is. At the same time, I’ve read a lot of experts (like John Gray, or various others who are legit, praised by other quality dating experts like the Claire Zammit, Katherine Woodward Thomas, Arielle Ford) who describe this dynamic where men will be consistent but then withdraw, or withdraw at the beginning and then be consistent. They talk about focusing on oneself and not asking the man where he went but letting him work out whatever and coming back to you. It is being overly giving to “wait” for a man who has disappeared in a sense but then comes back? Or does Evan mean that the man has to ALWAYS be consistent and present from the very beginning ?
I think it’s really hard sometimes to figure out if I’m making an excuse for men or being patient, giving, and non-needy. Is it a “time will tell” situation, or do I need to quickly kick someone to the curb if they fail to always be there from the very beginning?
Flurry 66
I think what happens most often, at least to me, is that the man tries really hard and gives at the beginning, and then once he thinks you’re solid committed to your relationship, withdraws hard and stops doing everything he did before. This is confusing and hurtful, because essentially, you fall in love with the person you met at the beginning of the relationship and spend the next part of your relationship wondering if the guy you’re dating is the person you knew at the beginning of your relationship, or the schmuck you’re stuck with now. It’s kind of like being a frog in a pot of boiling water, sometimes it happens so gradually you don’t realize when you need to jump out!
mellie charnalia 67
@flurry, yeah! Or, the withdrawing is at the beginning and then it’s strong, then withdrawing again…It’s very confusing, isn’t it? Many friends in very solid relationships have discussed with me at length how there were so many periods of uncertainty because their husbands/bfs would sort of disappear emotionally or literally, leaving them very confused…but they stuck with it and things turned around. Hmmm, how does one know if there is patience required, or if one is engaging in some romanticizing wishful thinking? Interested to see what other folks think….
helene 68
I remember once reading a comment from a woman giving dating advice saying that she would rather “walk over hot coals than go out with a guy who blows hot and cold for me…” and I can see what she meant – the sort of behaviour where a man seems to be constantly changing his mind about his level of interest in the relationship can be torture. That said, I think its important to remember that no one can be entirely consistent all of the time. This is unrealistic. Many people, men AND women make a huge effort at the beginning of a relationship to be positive, well groomed, accommodating etc..etc..etc… but even if we WANT to keep this up indefinately, most of us just can’t! In the same way that you as a woman cannot maintain the “legs permanently shaved, always in perfect makeup, my home is always warm welcoming and immaculate, I always have a lovely bottle of wine and some tasty treats to hand”etc..etc…, neither can a man maintain his early superhuman efforts to be always on time, endlessly attentive, etc… either. My view is, however that when a man becomes a bit distracted or less available at some point in the relationship, deep down as a woman you KNOW whether this is just a normal, non worrying temoporary absence or an ominous sign that THINGS ARE NOT GOING WELL. Sure, its always a little bit hurtful and creates a little anxiety when a new man suddenly acts a bit distant or busy with other things, but generally you know inside you whether you’re just being a bit silly to worry or whether this is a bad sign. Listen to your gut, I say.
Jane 69
@Evan – I really needed to see this article today. Thank you!
@Goldie – Thank you for the new outlook on dating. I’ve been burnt a few times over the last two years that I have been divorced and dating again. I needed a new perspective on the whole thing. My new year’s resolution: Look at dating the way Goldie explained it. Sincerest gratitude!
HappFace 70
Realistically how much you give or do not give doesn’t matter if he was up front with wanting to have a relationship with you. We often go I shouldn’t do this or that but at the end of the day you can do all sorts of stuff. If someone is into you it doesn’t matter.
Blonde 71
Sorry it took me a while to respond, but just wanted to again thank the commentators re my posts. I was really touched that complete strangers took the time to provide advice and cared enough about someone they don’t know to try to help
The posts have given me a lot to think about and I think I’ve identified ways in which I can improve my approach to this whole dating thing, and challenge myself in some ways. Change is good. Been reading some of Evan’s previous posts too.
@mellie charnalia, I did a search through Evan’s blog with the keyword “time” and have found some useful material, perhaps it’ll help you too when it comes to figuring out if you’re being too forgiving etc. I know I question myself on this too. Sometimes my friends tell me I’m too nice, other times they say my expectations are too high, however I think the common factor usually has to do with time. Me not being very patient doesn’t help when it comes to the opposite gender which seems to need more time.
All you guys rock, I feel like I’ve stumbled across a gold mine by discovering this online community here and have shared it with friends. All the best in the new year!
starthrower68 72
@ Ellen #2, spot on!
I am proud to say that I did not tolerate ambivalence today. The guy that was boiling hot until he got what he was pressing for (and yes, I take responsibility for having instasex) two days later didn’t want what he was so sure was the real thing. I kept it light though. Told him I saw it coming, that it was fun meeting him, and wished him luck on his search. He responded that I could think whatever I wanted (code for, damn, she was right and he had nothing to comeback with) and that he was done searching. I said that I had no dog in the hunt and it wasn’t mine to deal with. Cold? Perhaps. But I don’t suffer ambivalent men. I didn’t expect him to be in love, far from it. I had not even made an emotional investment yet. He is a flake, and his “feelings” for me were all about the hormones. He threw out the L-word not me. I ignored it when he did. He gave himself cold feet.
Starthrower is back….
SalsaQ 73
@Sarahrahrah! 52
I wish I had your problem of a boyfriend who gave too much. If he is a naturally generous man you will see it in the gifts he gives to family, friends, charities, etc. If he is a controller like some other posters said some givers are, that won’t be there.
Did you ever directly tell this boyfriend of yours that you were feeling smothered and why? A giver will give you what you ask for; a greater sense of independence and being able to care for yourself.
You said you are sensitive to this because of your experience with your mother and having to do a lot of cord cutting. Did he know about this? Did you clearly articulate and more importantly why and how his behavior made you feel badly (I think you said like a loser)? If you did this and he persisted, then he is being manipulative. If you didn’t do this and you kicked him to the curb, send me his contact information, please!!
jbv 74
This can definitely be a big thing for a guy. As a natural “giver” myself I was very frustrated with the last girl I was seeing who not only didn’t really give back, she wasn’t very thankful for things that I did do. Sometimes even a simple “thank you” goes a long way. I pointed it out to her several times that she didn’t seem to appreciate me but things didn’t really change much. Buying a coffee or ice cream for a guy can go a long way to show that you really care instead of saying you have no money and than going and buying yourself clothes or whatever. Being unappreciated also stopped me from opening up because I was always trying to judge from her actions what she thought of the relationship.
DMC 75
I thought this article was interesting but did not agree with a few points
1) Paul is portrayed as a wounded animal, but the case could be made he is just smarter and is adapting. Yes he may be waiting a long time for a woman, but that’s only b/c he’s no longer settling for pure takers.
2) This also presupposes that all people desperately want to be in committed relationships, even married. Many of us do not. Sure, maybe if the perfect wave comes along you take it, but it’s not a life’s mission for everyone
3) A key distinction is giving respect and kindness when it is earned, not by default. Society seems to condition women to think they are entitled to it by nature of being a woman. Paul should not just blindly give in hopes it’s returned. The woman should exhibit signs that she reciprocates and is not selfish.
doug 76
haha, I LOVE this post. This is exactly what happened to me.
I was a classic nice guy. I bought flowers for my girlfriends. I made things for them like heart shaped pillows, home made valentine cards.
I even asked a girl to marry me (she said no).
So, now that I’m playing the tough guy, you know what? I get 100x the attention from good looking women. This is why I believe that women don’t want to be treated well. When I was nice, the girls all left. Now that I don’t care,they all want to go out with me.
Of course I REALLY don’t care anyomore so it doesn’t ever go very far.
John 77
Sigh.
So many of you missed that Evan was turning the table, and rather than presenting a woman with these behaviors, presented them in a man.
This way it’s much easier for people on this blog to criticise him for his ineffective behaviors, rather than defend a woman who’s been treated unfairly by men.
What Evan was saying was “see these behaviors, they don’t work for men, so why should they work for women?”
Evan’s presented almost this exact same story before, but with the central character being a woman. The comments are much different then.
(Evan, I don’t mean to say you “make up” the situations you present, just that this is naturally a common theme).
Kurt 78
I think that it is odd that so many women are all over Paul for dating a 29-year-old. He is 41, but Evan indicates that he is very boyish, which probably means he looks young for his age. If that is the case, then the women his age may not have even wanted him when they were younger because he was too boyish.
I have a boyish look myself and am in my mid-30s and I get attention from women in their mid-late 20s. I seem to get more attention from those women now than I did from women in their mid-20s when I was in my mid-20s. I have found that younger women often tend to be much nicer than the ones who are in their mid-30s. Maybe it is because I live in a big city, but I have found that a lot of women in their mid-30s just don’t treat men very well because they are emotionally broken and have played the dating game so long that they are extremely jaded.
I think that there are some women in their late 20s who are very mature and appreciative of a man 5-10 years older even if a 12 year age difference like that for Paul is a bit of a stretch.
lila 79
From what I have seen and from my own experience—significantly older men who consistently want to date women in their 20s feel so lucky to have their “ideal” (a 20 something year old) that they tend to go out of their way to show how lucky they feel, to cater to them, give too much, too soon etc.
Most people I think tend to give more slowly and gradually more intensely, the more they see that the other person is worth it, the more their own feelings get stronger, the more they feel that the connection with the other person is important and worthwhile.
But an older guy who really only cares about having a 20something female doesn’t need to do this. He has what is the most important thing to him–a woman who is a lot younger—and isn’t interested in some deeper connection, or finding out whether or not it exists between them. So he just gives too much too soon. Of course women do this kind fo thing all the time too.
There is something really superficial about this. I mean, I think that what people like this are after is superficial and kind of impersonal too, based on a limited checklist of sorts And because of this, they do end up with people not that interested in them, who tend to dump them. This is because the relationship was never based on some special connection but on the fact that their partner has some characteristic that’s really valuable to them—youth, wealth, power etc.
I think the reason they can’t treat someone who DOES love and care for them well, isn’t because they’ve been burned before, but because they only really treat those who embody their “ideal” well (whatever that ideal is and no matter how superficial). Someone who doesn’t embody the ideal won’t get the good treatment–because they simply are not seen as “worth it”, or “valuable enough”.
I have been the partner who was a lot younger, the wife of someone the same age and also a partner of someone six years younger.
By far, and I mean by far, I was treated the best by the man who was a lot older than me. I left him though because there was something impersonal about the relationship. I felt that he wasn’t really interested that much in me, for who I was. I was kind of a generic, attractive 20 something year old to him. That was enough for him, but not for me.