If Some Doomed Relationships Succeed, Couldn’t Mine?

Doomed relationship

Hello, Evan:  

I loved your recent email about hanging onto a doomed relationship. Yes, I have been hanging on to a cheating casanova for FOUR YEARS!! (But Evan, he’s SO devastatingly handsome, and SO charming, and SO romantic, and SO attentive. He says ALL the sexy/sweet things every girl wants to hear. I practically swoon every time I get a text, a call or an email . . . . sigh.) Your emails have helped me enormously; with your no-holds-barred monthly reality checks, I am (gradually) extracting myself from his considerable pull on my heart (and libido :)).

Here’s my question: Do you think a compelling reason smart women hang on to guys who don’t put them first is because there are SOME instances — and, alas, we have all heard about them — where a guy DID reform, because he DID truly love his girlfriend, and when she gave him an ultimatum, or even just stopped giving in and started respecting herself and setting boundaries, he behaved better — because SHE took over the direction of the relationship in an assertive (but demure) way?


I must admit, this scenario is what keeps me hoping against hope that if I could only conduct my own behavior in a firm yet loving manner, I could change HIS behavior and guide him toward treating me right. It IS possible, no? Unfortunately, because it IS possible (though not probable, I “know,”) I keep on trying. Maybe today I won’t cave in and have sex with him. Maybe today I will tell him he didn’t call for a date early enough and I’m busy Saturday night. Maybe today I will say, “I don’t believe a word you just said. Call back when you can be respectful.” If I can only stand my ground and respect myself, he will respect me and we will live happily ever after — RIGHT??

I would dearly love it if you would address this strongly-held belief — a hope we women in love with cheating guys hold so dear to our broken hearts. Thank you!! You are amazingly insightful and wonderfully wise. I really look forward to your emails.



No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.


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  1. 61

    Evan has said many times that being a nice guy, on its own, is not enough. Evan says that it’s a nice guy with balls who tends to get the girl.
    As a woman, I have to agree.  I am somewhat weary of nice guys bemoaning their fate that women only want bad boys and friendzone them and won’t give them a chance.  It would be like a woman who contented herself with having zero sex appeal complaining that men were not approaching her.  You may be a nice person with many wonderful qualities, but attraction takes that “something something” which all of us have a responsibility to cultivate. It’s not enough to be nice. You have to have “game” in the sense that you have to be able to flirt, not be a pushover, and cultivate certain things which are attractive to the opposite sex.
    For a man, it might be a certain “take charge” attitude which makes women feel attracted; for a woman, it might be flirty, feminine mannerisms and a way of speaking that men tend to be attracted to. These are just examples.  The list is endless of what people could potentially be attracted to, but I think most people know deep down that not enhancing your attractiveness somehow and resting on being a nice person isn’t quite enough.
    Attraction is really not a meritocracy. It’s just that, attraction. It’s not a game, but it’s only smart to know what the other sex finds attractive.

  2. 62

    @Karmic 52.
    I like your comment very much. Besides saying things that are very true, it lacks the implicit (or explicit) “how can you be so stupid” element that some of the other posts contain. This type of shaming distracts attention from the fact that such a relationship can be meaningful in itself if the OP is very clear about her own needs and the limitations of trying to change another person (which it seems to me she intuitively knows but probably needed to hear once again).
    The very charming Casanovas I have met in real life end up married to women who are very accepting and happy to turn a blind eye. I personally could never live with that (too big of an Ego myself) so I married a less charming person. Cest la vie.

  3. 63

    I get the sense that when someone mentions “game” what is heard is “Lies and manipulations so men can pump and dump a lot of women.”
    I’m using it more in the sense of “productive game” in a more useful and detailed description of “Have masculine energy.” The corollary is the difference between “have feminine energy” and “mirroring.”
    Without dates there are no serious relationships. Without game there are no dates.

  4. 64

    To a woman, the word swagger might be better understood. A little attitude, a little confidence, a masculine stride. 
    Nice guys with swagger….Yum. 

  5. 65

    Karl R in #55: Frimmel said: (#51)
    “So what you’re saying is that without game your wife wouldn’t have noticed or cared you were a nice guy.”
    My wife’s first impression was that I was a nice guy, and she certainly appreciates the nice guys she interacts with. However, my wife knows at least a couple hundred nice guys. She’s never dated most of them.
    If I didn’t have game, we probably wouldn’t have ended up in the short-term fling that led to a long-term relationship.”
    That is entirely what I’m getting at and Clare is echoing in #61.
    I also think we’re getting a bit caught up in jerk/alpha/having game which I’m being a bit fluid with because there is a bit of overlap and ambiguity. 
    This guy is only a jerk because Elizabeth isn’t getting what she wants and she is defining his behavior. A guy who has been friend-zoned by Elizabeth only hears her complain about him and how she caved and let him come over after a swoon inducing text. So from friend-zoned guy’s perspective he’s a jerk for not making her “happy.” But the jerk is getting sex from Elizabeth so friend-zoned guy is getting conflicting information. But after a bit of thought it isn’t conflicting at all for friend-zoned guy is it?
    Of course since he is learning this guy’s behavior through Elizabeth’s filter and not Elizabeth’s guy’s own mouth he gets it wrong. This leads to “bad game.”
    Of course his texts probably only make her swoon because she can’t tie him down. Because he isn’t hers. Which would be the other reason the answer to this is “No” is even if she “wins” and ties him down she’ll lose because he’ll cease being what it was she wanted.
    “Having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting.” –Spock

  6. 66

    Clare # 61
    Spot on!!  There is a big difference between a nice guy who puts himself out there and cultivates the masculine traits that are appealing to women and the “nice” guy who is timid and afraid to make an effort.  
    As a woman I know that men are visual so I do what I can to look my best.  I don’t whine about how men only see the surface because I know that it is not true.  Looking my best as well as treating people with kindness, living a life of integrity, and being feminine makes me a better partner for someone (as well as happier with myself).  Sure there are men who only care about the outside, but I have no interest in them anyway so why should I care that they will only chase youth and beauty?

  7. 67

    Frimmel #63
    This comments makes sense to me, its not exactly the tune you were singing previously. Before I knew what “Game” was I knew when men had game. I get that, its confidence and the ability to charm. Its basically knowing how to interact with people. Plenty of nice men have game but not all men who don’t have game are nice. I think if you want to do well with women, you should be confident, act masculine but also treat her with kindness and consistency. If you just do the first two, women of quality won’t stick around.

  8. 68
    Sparkling Emerald

    [email protected] – To put it another way, if you can conclude something about ALL women from this ONE woman’s experience, then let’s flip it around.  Why can’t women conclude that ALL men are jerks from this one post, and treat them accordingly ? 
    I realize that MANY people end up in BAD relationship with VERY ATTRACTIVE people.  By bad, not just cheating, but inconsistency, verbal abuse, physical abuse, domineering (different than dominant), etc.  Ever see a man who is totally  whipped ?  I have seen men who are whipped by plain janers, but usually it’s the totally hot women who PW guys.
    I think the real issue is ATTRACTIVENESS, not niceness vs not niceness.  People tend to fall for very attractive people.  People who are very attractive are used to having the world handed to them on a silver platter, and being allowed to treat people like dirt, and those people will come crawling back begging for more.  Of course not ALL attractive people are like that, but when most of the world gives someone on a pass on unacceptable behavior, well, human nature being what it is, that unacceptable behavior gets re-inforced.
    I admit that I am not immune to extreme attractiveness either, I have to FORCE myself to stay away from good looking, charismatic a-holes.  But there is a whole world of people who are attractive enough, and who’s attractiveness is largely self cultivated, through confidence AND good manners, and wasn’t handed to them by mother nature herself in the form of perfect good looks, and then a jerk-like personality that was forged by a society that showers people born with perfect good looks with a sense of entitlement.  
    Also, I have seen a lot of guys moan about how girls reject them because they are “too nice”, and getting to know these guys, turns out they are very nice at all.  Or there is some other major thing going that is a turn off, that has nothing to do with “nice”.
    I prefer guys who aren’t drop dead handsome, but are attractive enough to be desirable, but not so ga-ga in the looks department that they have an arrogant sense of entitlement.

  9. 69

    I think people are making this complicated.  Men and women are attracted to people who have a strong sense of self and can enforce their personal boundaries.  Sometimes this can come off as bitchy or being an asshole when that’s not the case.  Game is just one way of showing you are in control of your boundaries.  People who have strong boundaries are seen as respecting themselves and their value is increased in the eyes of the opposite sex.
    Sometimes women get confused between being attracted to a guy with strong personal boundaries and a true asshole (a guy who is purposely lying and using people for his own gains, a narcissist) who also happens to exude the same confident qualities.  For “nice guys” who are upset at being passed over, the answer is not to go out and hurt other people (become a jerk) but to cultivate stronger personal boundaries.  Learn to say No.  I run into men at work all the time who are drowning in busywork all the time because they say yes to everything even when they know they shouldn’t.  Yes they are known as the nice guys but who gets promoted?  The guys who are selective about what they do and therefore have results.  Don’t do the equivalent in dating.

  10. 70

    Marie 69,
    “For “nice guys” who are upset at being passed over, the answer is not to go out and hurt other people (become a jerk) but to cultivate stronger personal boundaries.  Learn to say No.”
    AMEN!! It is actually a much bigger problem than most people think. I’ve been doing somewhat of a relationship inventory recently, in the sense that I went over the three biggest relationships I’ve had in my life (including my marriage) to see if there was anything in common that made the relationships go bad and ultimately end. Sure enough, all three of these men were unable to say “No”. For the “nice guys” on here who feel that they have the same problem, this is what the ramifications of it are for your partner, in my experience at least. I’ve seen one of the two things happen. In one case, the man kept saying yes to people who used him in a whole variety of ways and made his life hell. Because I was involved with him at the time, my life, and my children’s lives, would’ve become equal hell if we’d gotten closer, included our children in our life together etc. I actually ended it with him for that exact reason – I did not want to see my kids dragged into the nightmare that was his life. He has since learned to put his foot down and establish boundaries, and life has improved significantly, both for him and his close ones.
    Another thing, which is what I’ve seen happen most of the time, is that the man keeps saying yes to everyone and everything, but there really isn’t enough of him to go around, and eventually he comes to the point where he has to say No to someone. And when at that point, he usually chooses the one person that he feels most at ease to say No to – his wife or girlfriend. What eventually happens is that he bends over backwards to keep his friends and relatives happy in every way, in the meantime his partner’s needs are not being met, and when she complains, he makes it look like it is all in her head, or it is all her fault. Been there, done that, went for seconds. Never again. Next time I’m dating, I’ll be looking for a man with a backbone. Because as I have already found, if he doesn’t have one, then down the road, there’ll be hell to pay for me.
    So I plead with you, nice guys: if you don’t know how to set boundaries or say no, learn. It’s not the matter of you ending up with less money, promotions, dates etc. which I am sure most of you will tell me is something you can live with. It is not about you. It is about the woman you’re with. You will hurt this woman unless you learn to say no. And I am sure none of you want that.

  11. 71

    @Lia #58: Soooo happy you’re back! Congrats on joining Focus… You sure walk the walk! Good luck with dating, and keep us posted : )
    @Marie #54 and Clare #61: Spot on! I totally agree!
    My husband is a nice and respectful man who has integrity. Yet he pursued me, seduced me, and took charge of our early dating relationship. After over two years, his texts still make me swoon, and he still make me feel like a tigress in bed. We never had crazy chemistry, the initial excitement of the beginning wore off after two months. There is such a thing as a middle way.

  12. 72
    Karmic Equation

    @Kiki 62

    Thanks 🙂

    I wonder if “jerk”-shaming of men is equivalent to “slut”-shaming of women? Both are to control that sex’s access to the opposite sex or expression of sexuality.

    The first person in this thread who used the term “jerk” to describe OP’s guy, interestingly, is a guy, not the OP. And if I remember correctly, Karl T @ 23 is on the shorter side and may have some resentment of men who easily live the casanova lifestyle that is harder for him to achieve. After that a lot of folks (some of the women posters, and practically *all* the male posters, interesting, no?) jumped onto “the OP’s guy is a jerk” bandwagon.

    OP doesn’t view him as a jerk. Her term is the more benign “casanova”, which speaks to her perception of and feelings towards him as an entire person, not just his one behavior. The only “jerky” thing he does is (maybe) cheat — and I say maybe because it’s not uncommon for a woman in a lower league than the guy to think the guy is her bf simply because they’re sleeping together when he’s never given her the label.

    Whatever the case may be, the OP doesn’t consider him a jerk. In fact she really digs him for the way he DOES TREAT HER when he’s with her — “he’s … SO charming, and SO romantic, and SO attentive. He says ALL the sexy/sweet things every girl wants to hear” — Where in that is he “treating her badly” and acting like a “jerk” ?

    Some women can tolerate cheats. Jackie Kennedy did. Hilary Clinton does. (and some don’t ala Elen Nordigren, but she’s actually a higher league than Tiger) — Particularly if those jerks have some coveted status, such as fortune, fame, or power. In the case of the OP, it’s his handsomeness or his skills as a lover. There is nothing wrong with her wanting that. None whatsoever.

    I don’t think she’s wrong for wanting his positives. And for her, seemingly, those positives have outweighed his one negative for FOUR YEARS. By her own tolerances she’s putting a higher value on looks and sexual gratification than monogamy. There is nothing wrong with that.

    What’s wrong is her hoping that he’ll change. Maybe what’s wrong is her desire for him to change (not because that’s a dealbreaker, because she’s been ok with it for FOUR YEARS) but possibly because she feels she should want him to change because society, like most people on this board, is telling her that good looks, good treatment when he’s with her, and sexual gratification aren’t enough for a relationship: “Monogamy is king!”

    I actually do believe in monogamy. But I also believe in being happy. And, honestly, if I have to give up one, I’d give up monogamy.

    @Karl R 55

    “At best, casual sex will provide short-term fun without long-term consequences. At worst, casual sex creates long-term consequences with less short-term fun than you hoped for.”

    Agreed. And the key word is “hope”. If one doesn’t hope for sex to signify something else, there are no long-term consequences, assuming one practices safe sex.

    And I fully agree with your other two points.

    @J 56

    I don’t agree. She’s been ok with his “cheating” for four years. She can probably tolerate it infinitely…unless her clock is ticking. In which case, she should bail now to start looking for a man more suitable to be a faithful husband.

    Notice I didn’t say good father. I know of at least one proliferate dater (maybe cheater, not sure of that) — who married and is now a great father. In fact, I believe fatherhood turned him into a faithful husband because he didn’t want to risk losing access to his children. That and possibly he’s gotten chasing out of his blood.

  13. 73

    “Game” is not good or bad.  It has no volition; it just is.  People (men, in this case) who use game can be good or bad, or use game for good or bad intentions.  The guy who wants a real relationship with a woman usually needs some game to get her attention.  The guy who just wants to bang her also uses game to get her in bed.  In most cases the game is the same, just the intentions and ultimate result are different.

  14. 74

    Karmic- no doubt that some women could be happy in those situations but not the letter writer, by her own admission. She starts by saying she’s been ‘hanging on’ to a ‘cheating Casanova’ later states that she hopes against hope that he can reform and ‘treat her right’ (Implying that he is not doing so now). And the biggest tell of all, she started reading Evan to learn how to leave the relationship or change him.
    she sounds like she’s been trying to wrangle something different from this guy for 4 years and now she’s writing a dating coach. She says she’s ‘in love with a cheating guy’ and her heart is broken. That’s why I think this situation with this guy is not for her.

  15. 75

    @ Karmic Equation (#72):
    “I wonder if “jerk”-shaming of men is equivalent to “slut”-shaming of women? Both are to control that sex’s access to the opposite sex or expression of sexuality.”
    I think you’re on the right track.  While I think that you’re spot-on about the jerk-shaming, I don’t really see many guys engaging in slut-shaming.  I know there are a few women on here that swear up-and-down that men do this, but from my observations, it seems to be much more common for women to do this to other women.  I think the motivation behind this is actually to control their own sex’s access to the opposite sex.  I see it as a defense mechanism to reign in the competition.
    Now, back to the guys: I believe that their shaming tactic of choice is to try and make women feel guilty for not liking “nice guys” (as they put it) and going for the “jerks” (as they put it).  Of course, we all know that those “nice guys” aren’t always really all that nice and that the “jerks” are really just more confident.  Perhaps the term that we can apply to this tactic is “reverse jerk-shaming” hehe.

  16. 76

    evan, thankyouthankyouthankyou for the most perfect response to this craziness!
    there is absolutely no excuse for letting someone treat you this way!
    “…we have all heard about them — where a guy DID reform, because he DID truly love his girlfriend…”
    that only happens in movies! step away from the television and don’t believe the hype!

  17. 77
    Sparkling Emerald

    Frimmel #40 – “The new person you’re dating is not the last person you were dating. But that doesn’t make you blameless.”
    What ?????? I have read the whole post and I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.  So everyone who is dating someone new is to blame ?  To blame for what ?  The new person you are dating is not the last person you are dating PERIOD.  That holds true for both.  So if the last person played  with your emotions, doesn’t mean that this person will.  If the last person you dated physically abused you, doesn’t mean this person will. If the last person you dated never let you know where you stood or disappeared, doesn’t mean this person will.  Are you trying to say that if the last person one dated did something awful, then the next person you date is still somehow to blame ?  If the next person you date isn’t blameless, what are you blaming them for ?   I am not trying to be dense here, just not understanding what you mean by this, and what you are blaming the new date person.  
    NO ONE is perfect of course, but I take that to mean that we all have some sort of general short coming.  I didn’t think dating started out with the finger of blame pointing squarely at everyone for their human-ness though.

  18. 78

    Marie #69
    I appreciate your comment – It is one of the most concise and helpful things I have read on the subject of boundaries in relationships. For many, it can take years to reach this point but knowing it makes all the difference and reaching it is one of the most liberating experiences in the world! 

  19. 79

    Sparkling Emerald in #77: re reading comprehension difficulties/my communication failure.
    Were they the wrong person, were you the wrong person or did you or they just do something wrong?
    If I go into a new relationship unaware of which of my behaviors contributed to the demise of the previous relationship I am being as irresponsible as going into a new relationship with the assumption that the new person is going to treat me the same as the prior one or placing blame on the new person that is not the new person’s to carry.
    Also, if I am unaware of my own behavior it is very possible I will end up in a relationship with someone very similar to the last one because I will choose someone based on my un-analyzed contributions to the problem. A man who doesn’t understand he wants to rescue women will continue to end up with women he feels need rescued for example.
    I was suggesting that one needs to be careful that even though it is someone new that they aren’t also the “last” person you were dating. It isn’t the players’ fault you keep getting played.
    Also if you’re not getting the results you want it is smart to look at the people who are getting the results you want. I was pointing out this is why men end up with “game” in the pump and dump a lot of women sense. They short circuit the deeper introspection of what they want in total for getting ONE thing they REALLY want. 

  20. 80
    Karmic Equation

    @Chance 75

    Yes I did mean that jerk- (or reverse-jerk- 😉 ) and slut-shaming are to control *their own sex’s access* to the opposite sex. That is actually what I wanted to to say, but didn’t. Thanks!

    And I agree with you completely. I’ve actually had this discussion about slutshaming with my bff, who’s a hetero male, who said in an are-you-high tone of voice, “Of course, men don’t slutshame. Men love sluts. It’s women who slutshame.” I had to laugh at his incredulous tone as well as his words.

    @J 74

    If you read her words at face value, then yes, you’re right. But the whole tone of her letter is not “I’m heartbroken, please tell me how to leave this guy, Evan.” It was more like, “Please tell me how if I hang in there, my guy will eventually change for me. Please, Evan, tell me that!” — That’s the subtext to which Evan responded. He’s not telling her “No, don’t leave him” but rather “No, don’t stay. No, he won’t change.”


    What did you do with the real Frimmel? I’ll have second Goldie and agree with you 100% on your posts.

  21. 81
    Peter 51

    But he’s HOT! She may never attract such a hot man again.  Everyone else will be an anticlimax.  He’s even an exciting bad boy!

  22. 82

    Karmic- I get all that. Our difference here is I think she is upset and you don’t.  You think, at the end of it all, she’s enjoying herself with this guy and I dont. We have a different take on her tone. Your advice could work for her if she were a ‘cool girl’ but, at least with this guy and at this time, she’s not. Trying to pretend she is satisfied with a slice when she has been angling for and wants the whole pie won’t serve her.

  23. 83
    Karmic Equation

    J @ 82

    Yes, we do disagree on whether she’s upset or not.

    But we’re not that far apart on the possible solution. You just limit her to one option and I’m offering an alternative, with your option being one of them.

    The solution really depends on what she wants *MORE*. The relationship of her dreams or the man of her dreams. She can’t have both with this man, that’s the reality.

    If she wants the relationship of her dreams, then she needs to next the man. One of my solutions; but your one and only solution — presupposes that a monogamous relationship WITH a hot guy whose a great lover who treats her well when he’s with her will be easy to find.

    If she wants the man of her dreams, then she needs to next her “monogamous relationship hopes”. She already has her dream man, right? — This non-conformist solution presupposes that a hot guy who treats her well when he’s with her and who’s also a great lover is harder to find to than monogamy.

    With your one and only solution, she may have to settle for a less hot guy to get monogamy; with my non-conformist solution, she has to settle for non-monagamy with the guy she has.

    Which is more likely? I don’t know what OP looks like, so I can’t say for sure if your solution is possible.

    What I do know is that monogamy doesn’t guarantee happiness and isn’t guaranteed for long-term. The divorce rates are testament to that. Monogamy doesn’t even guarantee monogamy, cheaters are testament to that. Sounds hopeless when put that way, doesn’t it?

    But I’m not saying the OP’s situation is hopeless. As long as OP keeps HER OWN options open and accepts a non-monogamous relationship with this man, she can keep looking without giving him up. The only thing she has to give up is her HOPE for monogamy with this man. And the truth of the matter is, she doesn’t have monogamy now. So she’s NOT giving up anything real with the non-conformist solution. She gets to keep the man she has. He IS real. While she keeps looking. That is key. And of course, NOT allowing herself to fall in love with him. If she actively dates other men while she’s with this guy, she’s not likely to fall in love with him.

  24. 84

    Ooh Karmic, radical!
    Should she tell him that she’s seeing other men? And what does she tell the other men?
    How about, “I’m seeing someone but it’s not serious”.

  25. 85

    Karmic #83…
    So well thought out. One of the best posts I’ve read on this blog. Kudos.  🙂

  26. 86

    Well,  I will have to be the voice of dissent here, although I admit in most cases these are the “doomed” type situations.   I think often of a couple I know in which the man was very handsome, very much the ladies man, very much about town etc etc etc.  Then he did meet an English girl, she played it cool, he pursued her and –according to his own words to me, a colleague and friend–that he THOUGHT he was going to cheat in their marriage but ten years in, had not once.   So this can happen.  

    And ps, an additional thought on all of this, though not directly related. If the so called “nice guys” (who are not always so nice) weren’t, overall, so damn charmless and lacking in true confidence then women wouldn’t be “driven” to the so called bad boys. Maybe women feel this kind of insane attraction to the smooth, charming men for an actual reason–and not just irrational fantasiziing. When Nature says Wow, it is Wow for a reason. How you handle yourself thereafter–which is where most women trip up– is the problem. Not the attraction itself.

    1. 86.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Hey, Christoff, I remember you as the voice of dissent when you wrote this to me:

      “On occasion, Mr. Katz, you are truly crude. There is nothing funny about this, but totally depressing. This is the result of homosexualized media drivel contaminating male-female relationships; the death of masculinity and femininty (or, almost) and just plain cynicism–ugly, rude and crude. And, uh, no, I am not a provincial “rube”… In fact, I am the woman you say does not exist: the “supermodel” type in looks, History degree from an Ivy school, two foreign languages, and brilliant cooking skills. I came on this site as a young widow, looking to learn about dating. I will not be staying any longer.”

      What brings you back? Your passionate 10 year relationship come to an end? Nod once if I’m right.

  27. 87

    Karmic 83,
    Your solution could definitely work, and probably be the most fun and most painless solution for her, IF she is able to let go of this idea of having a serious relationship with this man. If she can truly maintain a level of emotional detachment and distance from him, and fully accept the relationship as casual, and not hold out hope that it’s going to turn into something more, then yes, I think this is the perfect solution.
    I think it all hinges on her ability to emotionally detach from this man to quite a large extent.

  28. 88

    As you say you’re a widow I surmise that’s the reason your relationship ended?
    I can’t pretend to understand how that feels but you need to be in a place where you’re not comparing men with your husband.  I’m going to hazard that would take at least two years.  No advice can circumvent that and I can imagine that it would even irritate you.   Some things you have to sit with yourself and let time pass.
    I’m not driven to bad boys. If I was, that would be my problem to solve. I wouldn’t blame anyone else for it. I don’t even see this type as bad, but rather impulsive, immature, silly, and show-offy.  Yes that can be fun, it gives us permission to let our hair down and be “bad” ourselves, but I wouldn’t build a life on it. We call them boys and not men for a reason.
    Your example is different, the husband didn’t cheat.  The OP’s partner is cheating. No point giving her false hope. Karmic has nailed what the OP’s options are. Not that I think the OP will like them but that’s the reality.

  29. 89

    Did any one see the Daniel Craig version of “Casino Royale?” Bond is playing poker with the bad guy suspect. Andhot Solange (so hot she tries pre-teen boys to early puberty) comes in and he’s a jerk to her. Bond seduces Solange and in the midst of their making out says, “So many nice guys. So many chances to be happy. Why can’t nice guys be more like you?”
    “Then they would be bad.”

  30. 90

    Karmic- I deinitely see your point. And I’m not against a non-conformist view! She is already in love with him though, so there is the matter of that. That’s why I said she couldn’t shift anything with him, if she was going to try that, without some sort of break first (time apart/space).

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