Are There Ways to Improve Compatibility in a Relationship?

My boyfriend and I are both 31 years old and have been dating for 3 years. Recently I moved back to my hometown to finish school. I only have 8 months to go, during which my boyfriend and I have a long-distance relationship.

After this is over, we are both ready to settle down, get married and have kids. He is a great guy who treats me well and will do whatever it takes to be with me. My issue is that I am scared of committing to him. Our relationship is a classic case of high chemistry, low compatibility. What I mean is that we have great sex, but I sometimes feel like he doesn’t “get” me. I guess I’m scared to let him go because I know he’s a catch, but I’m worried that he’s not right for me. Can I improve our compatibility somehow? Or is this doomed to stay as is?

Thank you!
Sabrina

This is kind of a trick question, Sabrina.

You’re not really asking me to improve your compatibility.

You’re asking me if I think you should marry this man.

I don’t.

You’re asking me if I think you should marry this man.  I don’t.

Nothing about it sounds healthy.

  • Long-distance relationship.
  • You’re scared of committing.
  • You have “low compatibility.”
  • He doesn’t “get” you.
  • You’re worried he’s not right for you.
  • You think things are “doomed” if they stay as they are.

To be fair, there’s a lot of information you certainly left out of your query, but what you put in is quite revealing. Your gut is telling you that this story doesn’t have a happy ending.

But you want to ignore your gut – or, maybe ask a dating coach how to rewrite what your gut is telling you.

Sorry. Your gut is telling you the truth. I’d be lying if I said otherwise.

Sorry. Your gut is telling you the truth. I’d be lying if I said otherwise.

By your estimation, you don’t feel “safe, heard, and understood,” your relationship doesn’t seem solid, you can’t relax, and you have little faith in your future unless he changes.

Not to give away the punchline of my free online training, but the #1 way you can tell a man is right for you is a lack of anxiety.

So what’s keeping you here? Great sex? A guy who treats you well? The perception that he’s a “catch” even though he doesn’t get you? 3 years of sunk costs?

Please, spare yourself from being another divorce statistic.

Instead of “trying to improve your compatibility” (a skill that can be tackled if he were a healthier partner), go find another guy who doesn’t trigger your anxiety so much.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Yet Another Guy

    I am curious as to if high chemistry/low compatibility is a common ailment that you encounter as a dating coach. While I believe that life experience tends to dampen the need for “wow” level chemistry, it is still fairly common at my age.  Bobbi Palmer refers to this type of woman as a “FemiType #4: The Wow-Me Women.” I believe that Emily refers to this chemical response as the “gina tingles.” 🙂

    1. 1.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      It’s always a matter of correcting for whatever isn’t working. Some women have settled for safe/boring their entire lives and need more excitement. Some women have chased excitement and are open to the idea of something healthier. My policy is everything in moderation, to avoid overcorrection. That’s where the idea of 7 chemistry/10 compatibility comes from. It’s a crude way of expressing a formula for relationship success that I help clients strive for instead of 3 chemistry/10 compatibility or 10 chemistry/3 compatibility. If that makes sense.

      1. 1.1.1
        Christina

        I agree with the idea of a 7 chemistry. The guy I have been seeing for the past few months is definitely a 6 to a 7 on the chemistry scale.
        So far it has seemed to last.

    2. 1.2
      Emily, the original

      YAG,

      While I believe that life experience tends to dampen the need for “wow” level chemistry, it is still fairly common at my age.

      It depends on the woman. I have two divorced friends about your age. One has a boyfriend who I suspect she wasn’t that into in the beginning because she kept breaking things off, but things seemed to have worked out. They’ve been together for 9 months. She wanted someone safe but was struggling with it at first (?), I’m guessing. The other met her “wow me” man at 50. It was high chemistry and the best sex she’d ever had. So after that, meeting guys from dating sites was disappointing.

      1. 1.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Emily, the original

        I am not a fan of wow-me women.  I actually prefer to be the un-wow guy in this situation because being the wow-me guy means that a man is going to have difficult time getting rid of a woman.  I believe that I have finally gotten rid a wow-me woman that I met almost a year ago.  See was a little too much on the Glenn Close spectrum for my comfort. 🙂  Now, I start to get cold shivers down my spine when a woman’s pupils start to dilate immediately when we first meet.  While it may be a false alarm, I am not taking any chances.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          *She was a little too much on the Glenn Close spectrum for my comfort.

        2. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          She was a little too much on the Glenn Close spectrum for my comfort.

          Well, if I hear something on the news about an attack on a muscly, fifty-something, full-haired male who was found with a computer with a litany of dating site profiles and emails to women, all methodically categorized — “wow me women,” “sex buddies,” “potential sex buddies,” “emotional support,” “stay away from,” “not 7.23333 years younger,” “too old-looking,” not correctly proportionate,” “has grandchildren,” etc. — along with numerous charts, graphs and studies about dating and his homepage set to this website, I’ll know it was you.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          A much earned touche’. 🙂 Live by the sword, die by the sword

          With that said, I believe that I may be reaching the end of my online dating experience.  I believe that it may be time for me to truly fly solo. That way I can avoid “Glenn Close” moments while not having colorful language associated with my name. Trust me, no man wants to be referred to as a “dick head.” 🙂

        4. Emily, the original

          YAG,

           

          Trust me, no man wants to be referred to as a “dick head.” 🙂

          Really? I didn’t think being called names fazed most of your people. 🙂

      2. 1.2.2
        Buck25

        Emily,

        I dunno. From what I’ve read here, being the guy women settle for as “a safe choice” looks like a pretty dubious “reward” from my personal POV. I guess I better amp up my lifestyle some more, cause online, especially, I attract way, way too many of those women looking for “Mr. Dependable”. I think I’d happily trade for YAG’s “potential stalker”; it’s problematic, but it beats being bored to death. I’m not sure what some of these women found “chasing excitement” (if they ever actually did), but from the way they act now, whatever it was, it was somewhere in their dim and distant past, cause to know them now is to know women who don’t have an adventurous bone in their entire body in any aspect of life. Their idea of high adventure  is a shopping trip at the mall, and playing bridge. They proudly display pics of them on a zip line; I find out they did it once, four years ago, and “never want to do that again!”. Zip lining is someone’s idea of a daring adrenaline rush, anyway? Seriously?? Give me a break!! Must have been the last profile I did; it drew one heckuva response level, mostly from exactly the women I don’t even want to know; a date with them is like watching paint dry. Note to self: never, ever, use anything like that again! Think I should maybe take a few years off my stated age, go back to skydiving, get a little “work” done, and maybe go run with the bulls in Pamplona (with photographic evidence of the latter)? Think that might make me look wild and crazy enough to get rid of these seemingly ubiquitous ‘comfort seekers”? I’m not ready for the old folks home just yet, but those women are half way there or better, at 60! What else do I have to do to attract the “wow-me” type (if there are any left) in my age group? Climb the North Face of the Eiger, perhaps?

        1. Emily, the original

          Hi Buck,

          I’m not sure what some of these women found “chasing excitement” (if they ever actually did), but from the way they act now, whatever it was, it was somewhere in their dim and distant past, cause to know them now is to know women who don’t have an adventurous bone in their entire body in any aspect of life. Their idea of high adventure  is a shopping trip at the mall

          I got a new job a week ago, but almost everyone at my previous job was like that. Worked at the same place for 30 years. Lived in the same town their entire lives. Went to the same place for vacation every summer (the same place everyone else went to). One male coworker told me who his celebrity crushes were. They were so vanilla! Even his fantasies were dull!

          What else do I have to do to attract the “wow-me” type (if there are any left) in my age group?

          A lot of men don’t like “wow-me” women. They upend the usual dating process. They can’t be won over, and their ambivalence can’t be changed with attentiveness and courting. They are waiting for a visceral, physiological, hormonal response to a man.They feel it or they don’t (usually don’t), and they can be very dismissive.

           

        2. Buck25

          Emily,

          I think you describe those women well; it’s like they have an “off-on” switch, that’s usually stuck in the “off” position, and it takes an extreme visceral response to flip it.  Connecting with one is a total crap shoot, as far as I can tell; pure luck of the draw. A man can increase his chances of losing, no amount of self-development, self-improvement or strategy applies;a pure numbers game, ten thousand contacts to find one. Be the best possible lightning rod, and pray for thunderstorms.

          That post was half in jest, but brought on by a real situation. You know how the churn rate on Match produces a mostly different group to chose from every two-three months? Well, in my areas the bulk of what showed up this winter have been been a particularly rum lot. I don’t mean looks (I gave up on that; anyone who isn’t “worst of the worst” at least gets a look), but couple that with all the personality of a concrete post, and the apparent intellectual capacity of a gnat, and you get the idea). Fifteen minutes into a meet and greet I’m looking for the exit. I don’t even want to get into the insipid details; the same cardboard cutouts with essentially the same two or three line profile who live up to the promise of such. All play bridge, seriously(which I utterly loathe), and their chief ambition is (surprise) travel to anywhere and everywhere (traveling with them as a companion? Should a man have to endure torture, cause that what any extended period of time  with that for company would be)? This latest batch are the living dead, literally.

          I am out of ideas. I’ve always believed in making my own breaks; it always worked before. Maybe here there’s just no more to be done. I am beginning to understand why they shoot horses…

           

        3. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          I think you describe those women well; it’s like they have an “off-on” switch, that’s usually stuck in the “off” position, and it takes an extreme visceral response to flip it.  Connecting with one is a total crap shoot, as far as I can tell; pure luck of the draw. 

          I know them well because I am one! Well, one in recovery. Yes, we’re a crap shoot, but if you beat the odds, we’ll be so thrilled we met someone who rings our bell (it’s so rare), once we get you alone in a room … well, you won’t survive the experience! Er, you like a more romantic woman, so maybe that wouldn’t like that.

          Do you live in a retirement community? How about a college town? You need to be around more sophisticated people.

        4. Nissa

          Lol, Buck25, I would not pass your test either. I suppose I was dead in the water after not being able to pass the 5 mile hike test either. Bah.

          Just a little teasing *smile*. I think you are right on track with posting pictures doing whatever it is you enjoy. Perhaps you could hook up with one of these ladies: http://www.adventurewomen.com/

           

        5. Nissa

          Ok, now I’m wondering. Is being adventuresome something men are looking to find? And why is liking travel not considered adventuresome?

          I mean, I’m an epic fail on that score. I consider investing in crypto being ‘adventuresome’, lol. Kidding aside, people have always considered me somewhat adventurous due to my being willing to travel solo to countries where I did not speak the language, but you couldn’t pay me enough to get me on a zip line. So it appears that there is some difference in definition.

        6. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          And why is liking travel not considered adventuresome?

          Oh boy. I don’t know when you started posting on this site, but there was a LONG and very redundant conversation on one of the posts about how “likes to travel” signals to men that the woman wants him to pay for her expensive trips. It was a surprise to most of the women, who assumed “likes to travel” just meant likes to travel. I guess men are always look mercenary double speak whereas women are looking for weaselesque playa speak.

        7. SparklingEmerald

          ETO said “Oh boy. I don’t know when you started posting on this site, but there was a LONG and very redundant conversation on one of the posts about how “likes to travel” signals to men that the woman wants him to pay for her expensive trips. It was a surprise to most of the women, who assumed “likes to travel” just meant likes to travel. I guess men are always look mercenary double speak whereas women are looking for weaselesque playa speak.”

          That “likes to travel” = “buy me a plane ticket” connection always puzzled me, because I do like to travel, but I expect to pay my own way.  I wonder if “likes to cook” translates to “pay to have my kitchen re=modeled” or “buy me an expensive set of pots and pans” .

          BTW – Love your phrase “weaselesque playa speak.” 🙂

        8. Emily, the original

          Sparkling Emerald,
          That “likes to travel” = “buy me a plane ticket” connection always puzzled me, because I do like to travel, but I expect to pay my own way.  I wonder if “likes to cook” translates to “pay to have my kitchen re=modeled” or “buy me an expensive set of pots and pans” .
          I sometimes feel I need a Male Hetero Discourse translator. I was told years ago by a male friend that the question “Are you spontaneous?” by your date really means: “Are you down to do me later because you’ll just go with it without giving it too much thought?”

        9. Yet Another Guy

          @SE

          That “likes to travel” = “buy me a plane ticket” connection always puzzled me, because I do like to travel, but I expect to pay my own way.

          Sadly, I get where Buck25 is coming from on the travel thing.  My friends like to label women who have the word “travel” anywhere in their profiles as “go fund me” women because a man knows that he is more than liking going to be on the hook for all or at least a disproportionate amount of the cost of travel.  It is kind of the pursue, plan, and pay doctrine applied to travel. After all, that is the chivalrous thing to do. 🙂 I think that I am going to start a male movement to bring back chastity to counterbalance the female movement to bring back chivalry. After all, they are flip sides of the same anachronistic coin. 🙂

        10. SparklingEmerald

          ETO. When I hear someone describe themselves as “spontaneous” (male or female) my experience has been that they are flaky and unreliable.  Usually bailing at the last minute because something better came along.  It’ s like they are trying to spin their undependabilty as a positive by calling it spontaneity.

        11. Nissa

          ETO, *LOL**

          Women. We are all so horribly literal. *coversface*

           

        12. Emily, the original

          YAG: PLEASE don’t open the conversation again about travel. It has been covered to death. We KNOW your thoughts on it.

          Sparkling: Very possibly. I hadn’t thought of spontaneous like that.

          Nissa: We women ARE literal. 🙂

        13. Buck25

          How about a college town? You need to be around more sophisticated people.

          @ Emily,

          Actually I’m in a mid-size metro area that’s home to a major state university. The area is somewhat sophisticated, somewhat just plain redneck; very much a mixed bag. Lots of professional people in my neighborhood, from physicians and attorneys to college professors. Some other parts of town are more suited to those who “like their women a little (sometimes more than a little) on the trashy side”

          I guess men are looking for mercenary double-speak, like women are looking for weaselesque playa speak

          That’s about the size of it. To most men, nothing on an older woman’s profile screams “GOLD DIGGER! quite like the phrase, “MUST love to travel!!” followed with copious allusions to her most recent itinerary and plans for the coming up “in a few months”, and topped off with her travel photos(she can’t provide even ONE full length pic, but she can post 20 travel snapshots showing where she’s been). I hope that some of you ladies here can tell me why so many women seem to think a man who’s a “world traveller” is such a “superior” man? Do you seriously think that having been to Europe or wherever makes them somehow a better man than the rest of us, who just happened to be too busy supporting a wife and kids, and building a career while serving our communities to have time to travel for pleasure? Or is it just another wealth signifier?  I know which I think it is.

          @Nissa

          Is being adventuresome something men are looking to find. And why is liking travel not considered adventuresome?

          My definition (and that of a good many men) is more along the lines of something that gives us an adrenaline rush (see my reference to running with the bulls in Pamplona). That’s adventure. Simply sightseeing is a diversion, that women like to call an adventure (I guess because that makes it sound exciting).  To a man like me, it’s as exciting as watching kudzu grow. Another example: actually climbing the Eiger, is an adventure; simply looking at it, is a sightseeing diversion. See how that works?

          Bottom line: If I’m going somewhere, it’s to actually do something, not travel just for the sake of travel  and admire the scenery. I consider the latter a complete, boring waste of time and money. One more example of how women are about feelings and men are about action.

          P.S.  You’re actually scared of a zip line? The way they let you do it, it’s a safer than riding a roller coaster. I go zip lining occasionally, if I’m with a woman who wants to think she’s doing something daring (it isn’t, but feels that way, to a novice).

        14. Emily, the original

          Buck25,
          Actually I’m in a mid-size metro area that’s home to a major state university. The area is somewhat sophisticated, somewhat just plain redneck … very much a mixed bag.
          That sounds like the area I just moved away from. There were plenty of very cool, professional women in their 50s and 60s, which I believe is your preferred age range. Have you tried meet up groups? Seriously, there were SO VERY FEW men and hordes of women.
          Some other parts of town are more suited to those who “like their women a little (sometimes more than a little) on the trashy side”
          Maybe a trashy woman is what you need. 🙂  On the flip side of that, there is certainly nothing wrong with a decidedly masculine, downtown man.
          That’s about the size of it. To most men, nothing on an older woman’s profile screams “GOLD DIGGER! quite like the phrase, “MUST love to travel!!”
          Make. It. Stop.

        15. Buck25

          Have you tried meet up groups?

          @Emily,

          I thought of that. The social scene here is a little peculiar, in that groups like that are almost non-existent. I’m not sure why. What seems to happen here, in my age group, is people introducing others to their friends. I’ve gotten a lot of dates like that.  Unfortunately most of them are relatively recent widows, who haven’t gotten through their healing process. They make nice dinner dates, some of them, but not girlfriend material; they’re a couple of years away from that. Interestingly enough, they’re almost as possessive of a male friend, as they would be with a boyfriend, minus any hint of romantic interest. They don’t actually want to date a guy, but want to lock him down as a sort of exclusive companion whenever they want to go to dinner, a movie, or the like, and get overtly jealous if he goes to dinner with anyone else; that side takes away from the otherwise pleasant (if unproductive) social aspect. One somewhat story will amuse you,  I think. An older male friend of mine (mid seventies), lost his wife a couple years back. He was immediately besieged by a veritable army of seventy-something widows (he calls them “casserole ladies”), who were always bringing him casseroles and other food. Somewhat like the ones I described, these did NOT want to actually date him; they simply wanted attention and a dinner companion (each solely to herself, of course). To discourage this mob, he placed (I kid you not), a prominently labeled empty Viagra sample box on his foyer table, which they could not fail to notice when they dropped by bringing their “gifts”. This worked, apparently, as the “casserole ladies” somehow suddenly lost all interest! I guess it shows that there are quite a few older women looking for permanent relationships of the completely asexual variety. They seem quite perplexed that these do not interest most of us men…

          What I need, Emily, is a 65 year old version of you. I might not survive the experience, but what a way to go, lol!

        16. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          What I need, Emily, is a 65 year old version of you. I might not survive the experience, but what a way to go, lol!

          HA! I’m a bit aggressive. I’m not sure that’s your cup of tea. In my recent move/transition period, I rented a room from a woman in her late 60s and she was as you described: interested in a male companion but not sex.

          That Viagra story is funny. Now, I do have a friend who is 55 and still very interested in sex. We have made a pact that we will be having hot sex by the end of the year. We have been on the sidelines for too long.

        17. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          Have you tried meet up groups? Seriously, there were SO VERY FEW men and hordes of women.

          That has been my experience with meetup groups.  Men sign up for the groups, but never attend the events.   That makes things awkward for the guys who do show up to events.

        18. Buck25

          We have made a pact that we will be having hot sex by the end of the year. We have been on the sidelines for too long.

          Emily,

          I wish you and your friend much success in that endeavor. It is a shame when good, sexually vibrant women languish without that fulfillment, as it is when men who might be good lovers do the same. One of the ironies of our place and time is that such men and women have such a difficult time connecting with each other.

          On a parenthetical note, It is not so much that I object to aggressive sexual initiation on a woman’s part, as it is that I rarely encounter that in the age group I date these days. If I wish to catch a wily trout, and the trout are feeding on a mayfly hatch, I would likely do better to tie on a fly to “match the hatch”, than I would if I tied on a steamer that mimics a minnow. It is less a matter of which lure I like best, than what the fish are biting today. Just so with women. If the majority of my target group of women respond best to slow,romantic seduction, it seems apropos to give them what they desire; “keep the customer satisfied”, and all that. A good fisherman always carries not a single favorite lure, but a good assortment, and the best can even tie something improvised on the spot, as the fish and the conditions demand.:)

        19. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          Maybe a trashy woman is what you need.

          What is it with you and dirty birds? You need to get out more often. 🙂

        20. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          I wish you and your friend much success in that endeavor.

          It may be too ambitious a plan on my end. I’ve been in this new town for less than two weeks and now a second man has invited me to his church. Ugh.

          “keep the customer satisfied”, and all that. A good fisherman always carries not a single favorite lure, 

          You should be yourself. Do what you like. Tbh, I don’t like when a man repeatedly asks me what I like and I can tell he is tailoring the seduction to me. Does he have no preferences of his own? That’s what sexual compatibility is. Finding someone who likes what you like.

           

        21. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          That has been my experience with meetup groups.  Men sign up for the groups, but never attend the events.   That makes things awkward for the guys who do show up to events

          Or you could look at it that, because you are a man, the odds are really in your favor.
          Maybe a trashy woman is what you need.
          What is it with you and dirty birds? You need to get out more often.
          I consider “trashy” to be a compliment. My very uptight stepmother used to call trashy women “saucy.” Remember in “Gone With the Wind” where Scarlett O’Hara tells Rhett Butler that he is not a gentleman? And he says, “And, you, miss, are no lady. Don’t think I hold that against you. Ladies have never held any charm for me.”

        22. Nissa

          Buck25,

          It’s not that I’m scared of a zip line per se. It’s that the adrenaline rush is not pleasurable for me. I have a higher baseline of adrenaline and cortisol, so it affects my body differently. So the same stimulus that is fun for others is too high for me. If you’ve ever had chafed nipples from distance running, you know what I mean – something that is routine becomes overstimulating.

          I was just surprised with the idea that men were seeking ‘adventuresome’ as a desirable quality, because it’s not appealing to me. I’m not opposed to a man that ‘seeks adventure’ but I would have assumed that he planned to do those things with his guy friends. In fact, it’s a bonus to me if he has guy friends so that he can play basketball, watch sports, etc without dragging me into it. I wouldn’t mind if my sweetheart wanted to climb mountains, but I’m thrilled to be his cheerleader…from the comfort of home.

        23. Buck25

          I consider “trashy” to be a compliment. My vey uptight stepmother used to refer to trashy women as “saucy”.

          Emily,

          I think we’re working with very different conceptions of “trashy women”. What you mean by ‘trashy” is a spitfire, a woman who’s not afraid of being just a little different; get right down to it, she’s not only strong, and strong-willed; she’s actually pretty courageous, in a way few women are. She’s stormy, she’s passionate, and often more than a little defiant. She’s not classless, by any means; she just has some sass and brass to go with it. She ticks off a lot of more conventional women (though I suspect many of them secretly admire her, even if they wouldn’t dare act like her) . A well-behaved woman she is not, which isn’t a bad thing, for if it’s true that “well-behaved women never make history”, it’s equally true that well-behaved women are usually not the most memorable of lovers either.

          Really “trashy”, as I define it, is something else again; to quote some song lyrics, “..where she wears her clothes too tight, and her hair is dyed; Too much lipstick and too much rouge…” or “She’s got tattoos on her backside, a Harley-Davidson in the den; she’s got an open door for the Marine Corps; she’s lookin’ for a few good men! She goes out to her mailbox, in her see-through pink tube top; if it wasn’t for all her biker friends, somebody woulda called the cops!” (for a more urban version, think “Snookie” from Jersey Shore). That’s my idea of “trashy”. Now, imagine the sixty-something version of same, and you might understand why I have a slight problem with that.

           

          You should be yourself. Do what you want.Tbh I don’t like it when a man repeatedly asks what I like and I can tell he’s tailoring the seduction to me. Does he have no preferences of his own.

          Emily,

          I don’t ask. I don’t have to. I can read most women’s responses pretty well; and I know when to keep it slow, and when I can speed things up, sometimes considerably. What I’ve found is that one very effective way of getting what I want (eventually, if not immediately), is to do what I can to really “rock her world” from the beginning. Do bear in mind that these are women some fifteen to twenty years or more older than you, so what works for you is not necessarily what works for them. It’s not uncommon for me to encounter women who essentially haven’t been sexually active since their divorce, sometimes years before. Meanwhile they’ve gone through reinventing themselves as single women, been through menopause, seen their bodies and hormones change. They’re not always super confident or even super knowledgeable about who they are now, and many of them simply don’t warm up the way they might have 20 years before. With some, what they need is almost “foreplay before the foreplay”. Not that this is selfless altruism on my part; often I’ve found them so appreciative, following the “reintroduction” they need, that they are far more willing to experiment with what I might like later. There’s nothing so giving (or so I’ve found) than a throughly satisfied woman.

        24. Emily, the original

          Mr. Buck25,

           A well-behaved woman she is not, which isn’t a bad thing, for if it’s true that “well-behaved women never make history”, it’s equally true that well-behaved women are usually not the most memorable of lovers either.

          Or as Joan Crawford said, “If you want the girl next door, GO next door.”

          They’re not always super confident or even super knowledgeable about who they are now, and many of them simply don’t warm up the way they might have 20 years before. 

          Gothca. We’ve all got our hang ups. But what’s interesting is that when I was younger, I thought I would want slow and romantic … sometimes you don’t even know what you like until someone introduces you to it.

          Also, I’m thinking some of these women may barnacle themselves to you! If you reawaken something in them they haven’t felt in ages.

  2. 2
    Adrian

    Heyyyy Emily,

    You said, “I got a new job a week ago

    YES!!!! Finally!

    I’ve been missing your office stories of guys who still rock the mullet chasing you around the printer machine asking for dates him mom will pay for (^_^).

    1. 2.1
      Emily, the original

      Hi Adrian,

      The atmosphere at the new job is very professional. I’m on day 8 now and not even a hint of innuendo. I kind of miss it.   🙂

       

      1. 2.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi Emily,

        Remember the job I had fresh out of college all the way up until Feb of last year when I got a HUGE promotion and moved to a new state?

        It was the job I spoke of with all the closet swingers and sex parties… Anyway after all that I thought I would be so happy to be in a strictly professional environment but now after almost a year of working here I admit that it is very boring…

        Friendly yes, productive yes, but boring and very impersonal-strictly a professional work environment. I would be curious to see your views on your new job 6-9 months from now, since like me you seem like you wouldn’t like a boring work environment.

        1. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          Friendly yes, productive yes, but boring and very impersonal-strictly a professional work environment.

          That exactly describes my job, minus the friendly. There is one supervisor I like. He’s the only person with a personality. There are actually people on the other side of the room who have never said as much as hello to me.

          I would be curious to see your views on your new job 6-9 months from now, since like me you seem like you wouldn’t like a boring work environment.

          I plan on doing a year here and then looking for something else. I needed the job experience to put on my resume after starting over with my fall college courses, but it’s not a job I’d want to do for too long.

          I moved again to a new state. I went to look at a townhouse to rent. The owner was pretty cute. Went up the stairs in front of me. I was cruising his butt, and then he invited me … to his church. Talk about a lady-boner crusher.

        2. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          You said, “The owner was pretty cute. Went up the stairs in front of me. I was cruising his butt, and then he invited me … to his church. Talk about a lady-boner crusher.”

          You probably won’t remember this but a long time ago (about 3 years ago) we had a conversation about awkward things people bring up on the first few dates to filter out people like asking if a person watches porn and do they go to church.

          Back then you and I weren’t as known in the comments as we are now so we were able to have a lengthy conversation without interruptions. Anyway I think we kind of agreed that the porn question was a way for people to say “I would like to be with you but I don’t want to compete with fantasy women in the bedroom” and the church question was a way for people to say “I would like to be with you but I need you to be okay with and support my faith.”

          So in my opinion it is possible that the owner was attracted to you and he was using the church thing as a way of qualifying/filter you. I know you don’t want someone who is too religious so maybe you could talk to him and let him know that you would be interested in a date but you haven’t decided on a church yet.

          Honestly the whole religious thing is very tricky-and I speak as someone who was raised very religious as a child. Because he could talk to you for 5 minutes about god and then take your hint that you want to talk about something else, or he could ignore your attempts to steer the conversation in another direction and keep going for hours.

          I am not sure where you fall on the whole religion issue but if you are like me and Evan then it is best to just avoid any guy who would invite you to church without knowing you.

          …   …   …

          You said, “There are actually people on the other side of the room who have never said as much as hello to me.

          I honestly don’t know how you can take it! Do awkward people realize that they make others feel awkward?

          I am not shy or insecure but being around people who make talking to them feel like a military obstacle course causes me to lose confidence. At least mean or rude people not wanting to talk to you is understandable… it’s just their character but the awkwardly shy ones…

        3. Emily, the original

          Adrian,
          We had a conversation about awkward things people bring up on the first few dates to filter out people like asking if a person watches porn and do they go to church. … Anyway I think we kind of agreed that the porn question was a way for people to say “I would like to be with you but I don’t want to compete with fantasy women in the bedroom” and the church question was a way for people to say “I would like to be with you but I need you to be okay with and support my faith.”
          I don’t remember that conversation, but if we had it today, I’d say both topics were shit tests … the porn topic (or sex in general) is usually brought up by men to see if the woman is down to do something. The religion topic is similar. Either party who brings it up is testing to see how the other person feels about it.
          So in my opinion it is possible that the owner was attracted to you and he was using the church thing as a way of qualifying/filter you. I know you don’t want someone who is too religious so maybe you could talk to him and let him know that you would be interested in a date but you haven’t decided on a church yet.
          The church thing killed it for me. Several years ago, I ran into I guy I worked with at my former apartment complex. Unbeknownst to me, he lived there, too. He was with his two children and on his way to a Christian music concert. I heard through the grapevine that he wanted to ask me out but I knew just by that brief interaction that we had nothing in common.

        4. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          I honestly don’t know how you can take it! Do awkward people realize that they make others feel awkward?

          To be honest, the atmosphere isn’t very friendly. It’s the complete opposite of where I used to work, where everyone was in your personal business. I like the two older guys who sit near me, the gay dude next to me. (It’s my usual demographic.) The younger dudes (sorry) and the women I can do without.

          But it’s probably best to keep work and personal life separate. Has your close friendship with a coworker ever waned, and then you realize there is someone walking around your workplace who knows personal information about you that could embarrass you? What if they are vindictive and blab? It’s a discomfiting feeling.

        5. Nissa

          I too enjoy the ‘friendly flirt’. It’s fun, especially with married people who know you won’t ever go after a married person. For example, I was in class last week, & happened to sit down next to my married friend. I’ve known him for 3 years and know his wife, they’ve been married for over 20 years. So it’s very clear that he’s very married, and I respect that.

          So my friend starts shrugging out of his jacket. I leaned over and helped him by pulling the back, where couldn’t reach. Then as he turned toward me, I leaned forward and said in a low voice, “It’s true, I do enjoy undressing men” with a smile in my voice. Boy did he smile back at me!

    2. 2.2
      Emily, the original

      Adrian,

      Also, how are you? Any more stories of a woman trying to set you up with her twin but you preferring her instead? 🙂

      1. 2.2.1
        Adrian

        Hi Emily,

        I have actually been doing a lot of dating and now I understand what you meant by people who text all day none stop (-_-).

        I am focusing on one girl in particular who I asked Jeremy about in the podcast comments section with Lori Gilbert…

        I am curious to hear his answer. No need to ask you because I know what you will say (^_^). I listened to Evan’s and Lori’s conversation about Evan’s wife 5 times before I decided to accept this woman’s date request.

        You and I have talked about these type of situations before the person who is attractive, and a good on partner but you just don’t “feel” any excitement for them.

        …   …   …

        On a side note: I don’t know how YAG and others do it! I mean going on more than two date a week with different women. It’s so exhausting to me, I mean at first the boast to your ego is AMAZING!!! But it quickly wears off.

        1. Jeremy

          Would I go out with a woman who thought I hung the moon?  Probably yes.  What does a date cost you?

           

          Having said that, I understand your thought process – how do you deal with unrealistic expectations?  If a person puts you up on a pedestal, where’s there to go but down?  You worry that you won’t be able to live up to someone’s unrealistic expectations of you, and being a validational sort of guy, that is quite the opposite of the way you’d prefer to be seen.  You want to be someone’s pleasant surprise, not their unpleasant one.  The look of disappointment that you imagine in her eyes is more than a boner-shrinker, it’s a validation killer.  Am I in the ballpark?

           

          Years ago, when I was in school, there was a period that I was the most popular person in my program, and very desired by many of the girls.  One, in particular, was quite enamored with me and pursued me.  Wherever I was, she’d be there twirling her hair and flirting.  I was flattered, but also nervous.  After all, I got to be the most popular guy in school by doing the exact opposite of what I’d normally do.  The man she was attracted to, the qualities she was attracted to, were not how I perceived my real self to be.  And being a validational sort of guy, I did not want to see a look of disappointment when she discovered the real me.  But I decided to ask her out, and she and I ended up dating for several months.

           

          In the end, I was right.  The qualities she liked in me were not the qualities I admired in myself.  Discovering the real me led to a reduction in her attraction.  But guess what?  Discovering the real her also led ME to reduced attraction, and I had no pre-conceived notions.  We weren’t compatible, that was all.  Do I regret dating her?  No.  I learned a lot about myself and relationships from that experience.  Did her eventual disappointment crush my soul?  No.  And I went out with other girls after that who had crushes on me, and although everyone eventually comes down to earth when reality sets in, relationships can still be good.

           

          So what does a date cost you?  You’ll either be compatible with this woman or you won’t.  And if she discovers the real you and is disappointed, you’ll survive. And you might learn something.  And if she discovers the real you and isn’t disappointed, you might learn something else.

        2. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          You and I have talked about these type of situations before the person who is attractive, and a good on partner but you just don’t “feel” any excitement for them.

          Why do you keep dating women you aren’t attracted to? Are there women you meet you are attracted to who you would want to date, women who don’t see you as the guy they would marry but they guy they would date/hook up with (I remember you posting you were tired of dating women who saw you as safe)? So don’t be safe. You’re being safe because nothing will happen if you don’t find these women that appealing.

        3. Adrian

          Hi Jeremy,

          You asked, “Am I in the ballpark?

          You are 100% on everything (especially the perspective of a validation guy part).

          It’s one thing to have a person think you are a great catch-it’s another entirely to have a person think you are a flawless rare work of art in the dating world…

          I wanted your opinion because I remembered a conversation you had with the female commenters about women who go after men in certain positions because they respect or even views them in awe because of those men’s’ status and yet when those women are with them for a few years the awe wears off and they stars losing respect for those men; which is the same as losing attraction for them.

          Obviously you are right… it’s just my fear.

          …   …   …

          All these years I use to think that women didn’t like being put on a pedestal because it made men seem weak which killed their attraction for them… I never once considered that perhaps some women don’t like being put on a pedestal because they fear not being able to live up to those men’s ideals of her… especially if she truly likes him also.

        4. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          You said, “Why do you keep dating women you aren’t attracted to?

          Remember attractive (she looks desirable physically according to societies standards); attraction (I have a strong feeling or emotional desire for her).

          So to answer your question I am looking for more than just sex. You and I differ on this I know but I’m okay with sacrificing strong lust in exchange for attractive with great character.

          That’s why I am so invested in Evan’s teachings, he never felt any strong or crazy lust for his wife and yet he still recognized that she is an attractive woman; after over 300 dates it was the easiest he’d ever been in… 10 years later he is very happily married while many other people his age who refused to compromise on strong “emotional” attraction are either still single, still dating, or divorced.

          Honestly this relationship I am in now very closely mirrors Evan’s and his wife… except I don’t think Evan’s wife thought he was the perfect guy but as far as it being the easiest relationship I’ve ever been in; it’s a 100% match.

        5. Emily, the original

          Adrian,
          “So to answer your question I am looking for more than just sex. You and I differ on this I know but I’m okay with sacrificing strong lust in exchange for attractive with great character.”
          I have to be careful how I respond to this because I am in a competition with Tom10 and I will sacrifice the quality of all my future comments to win! I wasn’t implying you should just want this woman for sex, but you have repeatedly described your dates as women who bore you and see you as husband material. And I was asking you why you do that if that’s not what you want.

  3. 3
    Adrian

    Hi, Emily,

    You said, “Now, I do have a friend who is 55 and still very interested in sex. We have made a pact that we will be having hot sex by the end of the year. We have been on the sidelines for too long.

    Sorry Emily but 55 seems WAYYY too old for you! And making plans instead of spontaneous sex doesn’t seem your style either. Why not just get a young guy you can have fun with and then throw away never to see again?… In addition you seem to be the type who doesn’t like when guys get attached, this old guy whom you know that hasn’t had sex in years seems like a good candidate for getting attached… Which you will hate!

     

    You said,”I don’t remember that conversation, but if we had it today, I’d say both topics were shit tests ….”

    I completely agree-which is why I used the words qualify and filter instead of your more colorful word choice (^_^). Personally I don’t envy you being in a religious area. The porn topic is easy to tell people you are against (though telling people you enjoy it could have negative consequences), but the going to church/religion thing is more like a powder keg. If you say yes I believe in a higher being then they try to indoctrinate you, and if you say no you don’t believe/don’t know if there is a god then you are either blacklisted from being a dating prospect or they are always secretly trying to “save your soul”…

    So I agree avoiding those men is your best option.

     

    You said, “To be honest, the atmosphere isn’t very friendly. It’s the complete opposite of where I used to work, where everyone was in your personal business.”

    I wish we could find that balance… I hate when everyone is in my personal business but at the same time I don’t like the stilted atmosphere. With my current workplace I can tell when people are saying and doing nice/friendly things not because it is naturally who they are but because it is what they think nice people do-like they are trying to imitate what they think friendly people would do so it comes off as very hollow.

    You said, ” Has your close friendship with a coworker ever waned, and then you realize there is someone walking around your workplace who knows personal information about you that could embarrass you? What if they are vindictive and blab? It’s a discomfiting feeling.

    Funny because I was just about to retort to your young dudes remark but then realized that at 21 I was a inexperienced young dude when it came to the work environment. Now that I am old and seasoned I never reveal anything too personal unlike I did in my early years because I know most work friendships rarely last and are not real outside of work. Yes that did happen to me all the time when I was younger because I thought that it was okay to share about yourself with people you talk to every day for 8 hours.

     

    1. 3.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Adrian

      Sorry Emily but 55 seems WAYYY too old for you!

      While I agree that Emily should seek someone close to her age (which I believe is forty-something), you do know that people start to age differently around age 40 or so?  At age 50, the difference in aging rates from person to person starts to become very noticeable. I guarantee that you would not be able to accurately guess my age if we were to cross paths because very few people do.  Men and women who draw the short stick genetically can look pretty damn old by age 55. Men and women who win the genetic lottery can pass for younger than their chronological age well into their senior years.  People who work high-stress jobs tend to prematurely age as well.  If you do not believe me, create non-paying male and female accounts on Match and perform searches on men and women between age 50 and age 60.

      1. 3.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi Yet Another Guy,

        You said, “Men and women who win the genetic lottery can pass for younger than their chronological age

        I’m actually glad that you said this because I have a hypothesis that I would love your opinion on; namely the talk about men preferring younger women.

        Now I have read the research so I know that it is a true fact but I personally feel that the honest reason has more to do with looks than a desire to have children… As you said if a very attractive 55 year old women was interested in a 55 year old man I just can’t picture none of the older men I know skipping over her to go to a 25 year old… Hell I’m 31 and I think 25 is a child so I know a 55 year old has to think that-plus people in the same age group are similar emotionally, intellectually, and financially..

        …In my scenario I am assuming that both women are equally interested in him…

        …   …   …

        You said, “which I believe is forty-something

        I honestly always forget this when I speak to or about Emily… I guess the vibe she gives off is always so fun and energetic that I always assume that she is my age… Now you have me wondering about Tom10… I assumed he was also my age…

        1. Emily, the original

          Adrian,
          You said, “which I believe is forty-something
          I honestly always forget this when I speak to or about Emily… I guess the vibe she gives off is always so fun and energetic that I always assume that she is my age…
          Thank you for saying that. I have also done everything possible to avoid responsibility, which I think keeps you young.  🙂   Yes, I agree, 55 is too old for me. I’ve never hooked up with anyone older than early 40s. I’ve become a man. I’ll age … but my sex partners will stay the same age. 🙂
          Now you have me wondering about Tom10… I assumed he was also my age…
          He’s in his early 30s.

        2. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          …In my scenario I am assuming that both women are equally interested in him…

          But they won’t be. The 25-year-old can have any guy she wants. I remember being 25. Fifty-five seemed ancient to me. There was only one older man I found attractive when I was in my 20s, and every woman found him attractive. He had “that thing.”

        3. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          You said, “But they won’t be. The 25-year-old can have any guy she wants”

          …   …   …

          So… something else that you won’t me briefly mentioning in our early days talking but I hypothesis that 99% of the things men say especially the bitter things about women who wont’ give them a chance is about Hot women… not average women.

          So yes the hot 25 year olds can have any guy but the average looking 25 year old will struggle dating like average men do (though I am sure most guys won’t believe that).

          …   …   …

          Anyway I have digressed so getting back to the original subject I made both women equally interested in the guy to focus on the fact that most men (at least men I know) would not pick a HOT 25 year old over a HOT woman his same age. The men you always hear talking about women over 35 being unwanted and 25 year olds being the prize are usually men who don’t have options to date attractive women their own age (in my opinion).

          Or maybe it’s just me… I would honestly be really embarrassed if I was 55 (even if I did look young like YAG says he does) and I was out with a girl that looked to be my granddaughter… And what would we talk about? Plus I would be really insecure about her leaving me for a stud her own age…

        4. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          Sorry I accidently clicked post before proofreading that last comment…

          Also I wanted to give you props (do people still use that phrase… I’m so old) for calling YAG out about attacking people’s appearance… Like you said no one has ever said anything negative about his looks even though he talks about his looks in ways that those who saw his picture may disagree is the reality … It would be good if he gave that same respect to women when he describes them…

          Anyway I just wanted to acknowledge what you did.

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Adrian

          It would be good if he gave that same respect to women when he describes them…

          I am entitled to talk about women who I believe are attempting date out their league.  These women are as delusional as men my age who think that twenty-something women are interested in anything other than their money. Women complain about men attempting to date more attractive women all of the time on this blog. In fact, a large percentage of the comments on this blog are made by women who find the bulk of available men to be unattractive. I am willing to bet that most have of these women have an SMV of 6 or less au natural (i.e., sans waxing, hair color, nail polish, flattering clothes, and other forms of female camouflage). I am older man who does not claim to be able to compete with younger men; however, I take care of myself, and I have a right to want to spend my time with a woman who takes care of herself.  It is that simple.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @Adrian

          Or maybe it’s just me… I would honestly be really embarrassed if I was 55 (even if I did look young like YAG says he does) and I was out with a girl that looked to be my granddaughter…

          I constantly hear that the lack of available guys in my age cohort is due to delusional men chasing younger women.  I am on the ground, and I just do not see it.  There is not a single large age-gap relationship in my social circle.  What there is is a gender imbalance between single women and single men in my age cohort, especially college educated single women and single men. The gender imbalances are greatest in large metropolitan areas where women tend to migrate, the places where women who read this blog are most likely to live in the United States.  The map on the page linked below highlights what is really behind the lack of available men.  One can select on age range and basic educational attainment level as well as zoom in and hover to obtain local ratios.  Where I live, the ratio of single college-educated women to single college-educated men ranges between 1.4:1 to 2:1 in my age cohort (46 to 64), and that is before one factors that women find 80% of men to be of less than average attractiveness into the equation; therefore, increasing the difficulty of finding a peer-age man.  The real problem is not delusional older men seeking younger women. It is a lack of available men who meet even the most basic requirement needed to advance to the level of being evaluated against a woman’s list of other requirements.

          http://labs.time.com/story/see-the-ratio-of-single-men-to-women-where-you-live/

        7. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          Or maybe it’s just me… I would honestly be really embarrassed if I was 55 (even if I did look young like YAG says he does) and I was out with a girl that looked to be my granddaughter…

          No matter how good someone looks, you can’t look 25 at 55. It’s not possible. And this topic is ludicrous. You’re in your 20s. Would you date a 55-year-old woman? Why would you want to? It’s no different when the sexes are reversed. Why would a young woman want to date a man as old as her dad? It’s not just about appearance. It’s about emotional maturity, where you are in life, etc.

          And what would we talk about? Plus I would be really insecure about her leaving me for a stud her own age…

          Well, yeah.

          Also I wanted to give you props for calling YAG out about attacking people’s appearance… Like you said no one has ever said anything negative about his looks even though he talks about his looks in ways that those who saw his picture may disagree is the reality … It would be good if he gave that same respect to women when he describes them…

          I would never say something negative about someone’s appearance. First of all, I think it’s tacky. Secondly, there are many different people in the world and many different types. What I may find appealing, another woman may not. For example, I remember Karmic Equation (where did she go?) mentioning the handsomeness of the Hemsworth brothers in another post. Pretty boy, muscly does nothing for me. And on a personal level, I’m not arrogant enough to think I’m every man’s type. No woman is.

        8. Adrian

          Hi Yet Another Guy,

          First off thank you for responding to my comments with such grace… I know that in text without the ability to hear tone and inflection it is very easy to misinterpret an innocent comment.

          You said, “I am entitled to talk about women who I believe are attempting date out their league.

          Yes this is all true and yes as you said many women complain about their lack of attraction for me on this site… All I and Emily are asking is that when you describe single mothers, overweight women, older women, etc… that you be a little more conscious of your adjectives.

          If you say that women are often very shallow on this site then be the better person and not stoop to their level. I think you have a lot of great points in your arguments that are overshadowed by some of your bombastic rants about women.

        9. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          No matter how good someone looks, you can’t look 25 at 55. It’s not possible.

          Why would a 55-year-old person want to look 25?  I am a lot happier at fifty-something than I was as at twenty-something. The lack of uncertainty as to how my life will unfold is priceless.  Plus, the world is radically different today than it was 30 years ago.  I will admit that I am shallow when it comes to looks, but there is no way that I would want to date a woman half of my age.  First off, most have at least a small amount of body art, and body art is a huge turnoff for me.  However, more importantly, what would we discuss? I just do not see this kind of age-gap dating in my area.  The more common age-gap is 5 to 10 years when we are talking older man/younger woman noticeable age-gap matches.  What I have been noticing lately is a lot of large age-gap older woman/younger man pairings, usually a forty-something woman and a twenty-something man.

        10. Emily, the original a

          YAG,

          Why would a 55-year-old person want to look 25? 

          I would love to look 25 again. It’s true that youth is wasted on the young. I couldn’t even begin at that age to understand what it was I had. But to have it now, with what I know now. What power! 

           What I have been noticing lately is a lot of large age-gap older woman/younger man pairings, usually a forty-something woman and a twenty-something man.

          I don’t get that. The young ones don’t even turn my head. They’re not even on my radar screen.

        11. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          I don’t get that. The young ones don’t even turn my head. They’re not even on my radar screen.

          I believe that it being driven by younger men who watch too much porn. There is a lot of older woman/younger man (MILF/GILF) porn on the Internet.  Couple that phenomenon with forty-something men not desiring forty-something women and a lot of forty-something women coming out of sexless marriages, and we have the perfect storm.  Most of the large age-gap dating that is successfully occurring between older men and younger women is occurring between forty-something men and younger women, not fifty-plus men and younger women. Fifty-plus men may want to date much younger women, but it is not happening to a great extent.  Young women think that fifty-something men are creeps.  I dated a woman a few times over the summer who was thirty-seven, but that was just too weird for me.   I cannot wrap my head around the idea of dating a twenty-something.  I cannot get past the body art that most of them sport.  Body art is so unfeminine to me.

        12. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          I believe that it being driven by younger men who watch too much porn. There is a lot of older woman/younger man (MILF/GILF) porn on the Internet.  Couple that phenomenon with forty-something men not desiring forty-something women and a lot of forty-something women coming out of sexless marriages

          I know this is going to blow your mind, but there are a lot of “older” women who are very attractive.  Maybe some of the younger guys really like the older women. It IS possible. Maybe there are men out there who want to date women their own age. It IS possible.

          Most of the large age-gap dating that is successfully occurring between older men and younger women is occurring between forty-something men and younger women, not fifty-plus men and younger women. Fifty-plus men may want to date much younger women, but it is not happening to a great extent.  Young women think that fifty-something men are creeps.

          If a man my age is talking to me because younger women won’t talk to him, he needs to keep steppin’.

        13. Nissa

          Emily The Original,

          Thank you for saying that, about the older woman / younger man porn thing! I had no idea was a thing, but that totally explains the experience I was having when I did online dating. I was completely perplexed by how many emails I got from unsuitable younger men. I assumed at the time that they were just emailing everyone (which might still be true) but that makes so much more sense, put in that perspective.

        14. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          I had no idea was a thing, but that totally explains the experience I was having when I did online dating. I was completely perplexed by how many emails I got from unsuitable younger men. I assumed at the time that they were just emailing everyone (which might still be true)

          Maybe they have a Mrs. Robinson fantasy. I mean … between bland girl-next-door Katherine Ross or sexually voracious Anne Bancroft, is there really a contest?

      2. 3.1.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Adrian

        I know a 55 year old has to think that-plus people in the same age group are similar emotionally, intellectually, and financially..

        Things get more complicated than you assume as one ages. The delineation line at my age has to do with grandchildren. Some people in my age cohort married and started their families early where others delayed marrying and starting their families until later in life.  The former have launched children who usually have children of their own, many of which are already in elementary school.  Their children have been off of their payrolls for years.  The later are still active parents. I can assure you that I am at a very different place lifestyle and life stage-wise than a woman who married straight out of college, started her family a few years later, and is now a grandmother.  I cannot even relate to such a woman as my children will be starting college later this year. One of my children wants to attend medical school, so she will be on my payroll for years to come.  Most of the peer-age women that I have met since re-entering the dating pool who delayed childbearing feel the same disconnect with men who married and started families at a young age.  Basically, men and women who married and started their families later in life want to be with people who married and started their families later in life; therefore, we have affinity grouping within an affinity group.

         

      3. 3.1.3
        Karl R

        Yet Another Guy said:

        “Men and women who draw the short stick genetically can look pretty damn old by age 55.”

        Don’t forget the influence of personal habits.  Smoking, sun exposure, heavy drinking, and lack of exercise can have even more influence than genes.

         

        Adrian said:

        “I have a hypothesis that I would love your opinion on …”

        Adrian,

        That’s going to depend on the individual.  I’m married to an attractive woman who is 16 years older than me … and my preference was generally toward women my own age.  But my wife and I worked better as a couple than any of the other people we’d previously dated, even though it was the biggest age gap for both of us.

        I also dated two women who were 11 years younger than me.  One was sufficiently mature for me, and the other one wasn’t even close.

        But if someone is seeking a relationship where they’re dominant over (or subordinate to) their partner, large age differences can create a power imbalance (as can income disparities, personality types, etc.)  For those individuals, the lack of maturity might be a bigger draw than the physical appearance.

         

        Adrian said/asked:

        “I would honestly be really embarrassed if I was 55 (even if I did look young like YAG says he does) and I was out with a girl that looked to be my granddaughter… And what would we talk about?”

        Being embarrassed about an age difference is up to you.  My wife and I don’t care about our age gap, so people take their cue from us and see our relationship as perfectly normal.  If we acted embarrassed about our age difference, people would also take their cue from us and see our relationship as being weird and unhealthy.

        What do we talk about?  Dancing.  Work.  Her dad’s health.  The pets.  Renewing our passports.  Current events.  Things we find funny.  (Lots of overlap between the last two)  And that’s just the last couple days.

         

        Yet Another Guy said:

        “I constantly hear that the lack of available guys in my age cohort is due to delusional men chasing younger women.  I am on the ground, and I just do not see it.”

        “a large percentage of the comments on this blog are made by women who find the bulk of available men to be unattractive.”

        These are two sides of the same coin.  For the most part, they’re excuses that people lean on to explain their lack of success in dating … so they can avoid focusing on the factors under their control.

        If a woman refused to date me because she found most men unattractive, she decreased my pool of available women by one … but she decreased her pool of available men by 80% or more.  And if a man won’t date a woman because she’s close to his age, he decreases her pool of available men by one.  He decreases his available pool by a far greater number.

        But pointing fingers at the opposite sex is easy.  Changing your own selection criteria takes more effort.  That’s why most people take the easy way out.

         

        Nissa said:

        “I was completely perplexed by how many emails I got from unsuitable younger men.”

        It probably had less to do with MILF/GILF porn and more to do with casual sex.

        There’s a perception, supported by some facts (such as OK Cupid’s “The Case for an Older Woman”), that older women are more likely to engage in casual sex than younger women … particularly if they’re going through perimenopause.  I would say that there’s too much individual variation for this to be a general rule, but as an overall trend, it has some merit.

        In other words, most of these men are contacting you because they think you’re attractive, they’re looking for casual sex, and they’re not hung up on the age difference … because it’s just casual sex.  They’d be equally willing to have casual sex with someone their own age.

        1. Emily, the original

          Karl R,

          In other words, most of these men are contacting you because they think you’re attractive, they’re looking for casual sex, and they’re not hung up on the age difference … because it’s just casual sex.  They’d be equally willing to have casual sex with someone their own age.

          How easy it is for a man to set an ongoing casual sex situation? I ask because men seem to (I’m guessing ?) spend a lot of time chasing casual sex. Wouldn’t it be easier to have steady partner already lined up?

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          I ask because men seem to (I’m guessing ?) spend a lot of time chasing casual sex. Wouldn’t it be easier to have steady partner already lined up?

          In my humble opinion, the difference in sexual habits between men and women has to do with the female preference for “mind blowing” sex.  I have never heard a guy use that term to describe sex he has had or sex that he seeks.  What is mind blowing for a lot of guys is to get a woman into bed who they thought was way out of their league. They do not care if there is no possibility of a repeat performance. In essence, men tend to practice sex as a sport, especially when they are younger. What challenge is there in repeatedly sleeping with the with same woman? Instead, deep down inside most men want to pursue and conquer the women that other men desire, but cannot have, and they want to do it on a regular basis. That desire is what drives guys to the PUA sites.  The quality of the sex does not matter as much as the hotness of the woman.  If she is freaky, that is a bonus.

          A huge problem with which I had to come to grips after re-entering the dating pool was that I was past the sex as a sport stage in life, which meant that I had to accept a new normal. Quick frankly, sex has lost a lot of its luster to me. It just seems like a lot of unnecessary work in order to get off. I routinely meet women my age who are looking for mind blowing sex after having been in less than satisfying marriages. While I will play along, sex is nowhere near as satisfying as it was when I practiced it as a sport.  Regaining pleasure from the act is going to require a huge paradigm shift on my part. I have reached the point where I believe that practicing sex as a sport and having a high partner count when one is younger can ruin things for people later in life by robbing one’s partner of that special status in one’s mind, so I find myself telling frustrated younger guys to be careful with what they wish for.

        3. Jeremy

          That is a very astute comment, YAG.  Evan’s post from a few weeks ago, the one where he wondered what man marries for sex, got me thinking a lot about this very subject.  I think that men who have sex with the goal of validation through novelty ultimately set themselves up for trouble later in life.  Because if you hook up with dozens of women as a form of self-medication (ie. hooking up makes you feel good about yourself when you might otherwise feel down), that etches a pathway in your brain, both of how you expect to feel better when down, and what sex means to you.  If that is the case, what happens when you marry?  Ultimately, on some level, married sex becomes a form of self-denial.  Rather than the ultimate form of connection, it becomes a reminder of what one can not have.  How could the libido not decrease in such a case?  How could one not view sex as a minor part of marriage, when marriage requires a sublimation of one’s sex drive rather than an expression of it?

           

          I remember very well a discussion with Tom10 about this – he began to realize that his years of “debauchery” (as he put it) might have set him up for future unhappiness because his future life could never be as novel or exciting.  I agree with him.  Being good at anything requires practice – marriage most of all.  How can we expect to be good at marriage when we spend our youth practicing its antithesis, etching pathways of validation in our brains that run contrary to how we hope our lives will turn out?

        4. Karl R

          Emily, the original asked:

          “How easy it is for a man to set an ongoing casual sex situation?”

          “Wouldn’t it be easier to have steady partner already lined up?”

          I’m going to assume that you’re using the term “steady partner” to describe what I would call a serious or committed relationship.

          Based on my personal experience, the ongoing casual sex relationship seems slightly easier to arrange.  This makes sense logically, since there are fewer requirements.

           

          Minimum requirements for…

          … ongoing casual sex:

          1. Mutual sexual attraction.

          2. Both willing to enter a casual relationship.

          … a serious relationship:

          1. Mutual sexual attraction.

          2. Both willing to enter a committed relationship.

          3. Compatibility.

           

          In general, I’ve seen people who were primarily interested in serious long-term relationships, but were willing to enter ongoing casual relationships if no good prospects for serious relationships were available.  The reverse is not as likely to occur.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “In essence, men tend to practice sex as a sport, especially when they are younger.  What challenge is there in repeatedly sleeping with the with same woman?

          Really? That’s not been my experience.  Nor have I ever heard a male friend make that claim.  We’ve always talked about sex as entertainment, not a challenge.

          Even my most sexually active male friend, who has had hundreds of sex partners, is happy to have sex with the same men again … provided he enjoyed the sex the first time.  (He’s gay, so he’s having sex with men, but the same principles should apply.)

          I also recall a similar quote from an episode of “House”.

          Chase (to Cameron): “When two people have had sex, unless it sucks, if they can do it again, they’re gonna do it again.”

           

          Having sex is easy.  If you’re having problems finding a partner, lower your standards.  If you’re still having problems, lower them further.  There is no challenge.

          The whole concept of a “conquering” a woman is ludicrous.  The woman is a willing partner.

          The idea of a woman “that other men desire, but cannot have,” is also laughably broad.  For every woman out there, some men can have her, and others can’t.  My wife had other boyfriends before me.  If I die before her, I’m sure she’d find boyfriends afterwards.

           

          Yet Another Guy,

          It sounds like your younger self was pursuing sex with a self-delusional worldview, seeking and finding imaginary accomplishments.  And maybe that’s relatively common among certain segments of the population.

          If so, I’d recommend that the men grow up and get a grip on reality (like you have) … and I’d recommend the women avoid having sex with any man-child.

           

          Jeremy said:

          “I think that men who have sex with the goal of validation through novelty ultimately set themselves up for trouble later in life.”

          Anyone who has low self-esteem is setting themselves up for trouble … generally sooner instead of later.  And anyone who requires validation from an external source lacks self-esteem … by definition.

          If someone is using sex with multiple partners for validation, then they could end up with the problems you describe.  But if someone has a different view of casual sex, then most of what you said just isn’t going to apply.

        5. Emily, the original

          Karl R,
          I’m going to assume that you’re using the term “steady partner” to describe what I would call a serious or committed relationship.
           I meant the exact opposite. You enter a casual situation where you hook up, no strings. I think we were talking about other why young men would message much older women. If you have a sex partner lined up, you can focus your energies on other things. You don’t want serious. You want to hang out with your friends, do well at your job … whatever it is young men do.

        6. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          In my humble opinion, the difference in sexual habits between men and women has to do with the female preference for “mind blowing” sex.  I have never heard a guy use that term to describe sex he has had or sex that he seeks.  What is mind blowing for a lot of guys is to get a woman into bed who they thought was way out of their league.

          I can assure you “mind blowing” exists and the difference between it and even ” very good” is vast. I’ve had mind blowing with only two of my partners. I have a 50-year-old friend who’s had one mind blowing partner. It’s very rare, but once attained, is a comparison point from that moment on. And in my case, both men commented on how good it was from their viewpoint, and they were both in my league.

        7. Yet Another Guy

          @Karl R

          It sounds like your younger self was pursuing sex with a self-delusional worldview, seeking and finding imaginary accomplishments.  And maybe that’s relatively common among certain segments of the population.

          It was never about self-delusion or imaginary accomplishments. It was about the chase. The chase is normal male response.  It is about accomplishing things that one thought were beyond one’s abilities. It is no different than a man who chases success in business.  In fact, those who do not exhibit the drive to chase when they are younger are not normal men. Lack of the drive to chase is a sign of low testosterone.  Men stop chasing as hard when they get older because their testosterone level drops while their estradiol (E2) level rises.  In effect, men become more feminized as they age.

          If so, I’d recommend that the men grow up and get a grip on reality (like you have) … and I’d recommend the women avoid having sex with any man-child

          I would not call it growing up.  I would call it a normal progression of life that has to do with the hormonal changes that I outlined above.  Young men effectively compete for breeding rights with hot women. That is on display in clubs and bars where young people gather. We may not want to think of it that way; however, that is what is actually occurring, and it is perfectly normal behavior that ensures the health of the overall gene pool.  In fact, the health of the gene pool is only as good as the selectivity of the women in it. If you look at every masculine trait, it is the result of female preference, including average male penis size.

          You have to consider that you are the exception to the rule, not the rule. While I give you props for having the guts to do it, how many men are in touch with their feminine side enough to dance formally? That is by any definition a feminine activity.  One does not see men dying to sign up for formal dancing.  Most men have to be dragged to formal dance lessons.

        8. Nissa

          Karl R,

          I think you are right. It’s another case of “it never occurred to Nissa”. Since I had clearly indicated that I was only interested in LTR/marriage, I thought that meant they were responding on that basis (of casual sex).

        9. Nissa

          Karl,

          Also because I’m like:

           

        10. Karl R

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “The chase is normal male response.  It is about accomplishing things that one thought were beyond one’s abilities.”

          What part did you think was beyond your abilities?  Having sex?  Having sex with an attractive woman?

          I’ve done some moderately challenging things.  I never believed that sex would be challenging … and my first sexual encounter confirmed that belief.  Are there are actually men (or boys) who sit around thinking, “I’ve had sex once, and it was pretty easy … but I’m not sure that I’ll have the ability to have sex again….”

          My second sex partner was an attractive woman, desired by many men.  I don’t think it requires genius-level intelligence to figure out that if one attractive woman wants to have sex with me, there’s bound to be a few more attractive women who share her opinion.  It’s clearly not beyond my abilities to have sex with them.

          Where’s the “thrill” of this chase?  It seems as challenging as flipping a coin.  Either the woman wants to have sex with me (and the outcome is a forgone conclusion), or the woman doesn’t want to have sex with me (and the outcome is a forgone conclusion).

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “It is no different than a man who chases success in business.”

          So … you’ve gotten successful by changing careers every few months and pursuing something completely different … jobs where you’re not sure you have the ability to succeed?

          I’ve built a successful career off of capitalizing on my proven strengths.  (Proven to me.  I keep surprising other people with them.)  I may be tackling things that I haven’t done before, but they’re within my capability to learn.

          And if you’re talking about building and running a business, look at Warren Buffet’s rules.  I’d take him as the expert, and he seems dead-set against the “thrill of the chase” concept.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “In fact, those who do not exhibit the drive to chase when they are younger are not normal men. Lack of the drive to chase is a sign of low testosterone.”

          That sounds like a made-up fact to me.  And you didn’t cite a source.  Why don’t you go hunt down a credible source for that “fact”.

          Testosterone increases a man’s sex drive.  It also causes impulsivity.  But I’ve seen nothing to suggest that it creates this “drive to chase” as you suggest.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “Young men effectively compete for breeding rights with hot women.”

          If those young men perpetually believe that sex with attractive women is beyond their abilities (as you claimed), then I’m going to question whether they’re competing “effectively.”

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “You have to consider that you are the exception to the rule, not the rule.”

          I don’t think a guy has to be that exceptional to figure out that sex can be rather easy to get.

           

          Yet Another Guy asked:

          “While I give you props for having the guts to do it, how many men are in touch with their feminine side enough to dance formally?”

          Locally?  At least a couple thousand have taken enough classes to be reasonably skilled.  Probably many, many more, but I’m not tied into all of the various dance communities.  (Just to be clear, that’s the number who dance formally.  I wouldn’t count on more than a few of them being in touch with their feminine side.)

          But if you want to make my day, I’d love to see you walk up to Ken (one of the locals, in this video) and tell him, to his face, “That [dancing] is by any definition a feminine activity.”

          Ken is 6’5″ or so.  (The woman he’s dancing with is 6’1″.)  Ken’s also a laid-back guy, so he probably won’t hurt you for saying that.  Probably.

          (Here’s another video of Ken, just in case the previous video gave you the mistaken impression that he’s thin.)

          And I didn’t even pick Ken because he’s the epitome of masculinity in the dance community.  I picked him because he’s been winning contests lately, so I knew I could quickly find a video of him.

          If you’re really feeling suicidal, walk into a Latin dance club and tell the guys that dancing is feminine.  It will definitely be more challenging than making a pass at a woman.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “Most men have to be dragged to formal dance lessons.”

          Your post just keeps getting more hilarious.

          So which is it?  Are they masculine testosterone factories?  Or are they pushovers who keep getting dragged around by their wives (or mothers, or whatever)?

        11. Shaukat

          It seems as challenging as flipping a coin.  Either the woman wants to have sex with me (and the outcome is a forgone conclusion), or the woman doesn’t want to have sex with me (and the outcome is a forgone conclusion).

          I actually disagree with this analogy. The outcome of flipping a coin is a random statistical event-flip it enough times and you’ll get a roughly equal landing of heads or tails. Having sex with an attractive, or even above-average woman, requires a certain level of skill (or ‘game’), in addition to requiring investment and work in one’s appearance. An average chump may occasionally get lucky and land an attractive woman, but he’s likely stumbled upon a statistical anomaly, it’s not necessarily the case that there are several or many other attractive women who would want to sleep with him, and he shouldn’t draw that inference. I’ve heard of guys who put no effort into their appearance, yet who send out thousands of messages online, approach thousands more irl, and yet keep getting rejected.

          That said, I completely agree with you that most men don’t find any ‘challenge’ or thrill in the ‘chase.’ It’s the outcome, either sex or a relationship that matters.

        12. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          Having sex with an attractive, or even above-average woman, requires a certain level of skill (or ‘game’), in addition to requiring investment and work in one’s appearance. An average chump may occasionally get lucky and land an attractive woman, but he’s likely stumbled upon a statistical anomaly … 

          Assortative mating has been written about before on this site, but it bears repeating: Most people attract someone who similar to their level of attractiveness. Look at the engagement photos in The New York Times. Not only is the couple often matched in terms of appearance, but they often even look alike.

          Secondly, while everyone wants to be attracted to their partners and attractive to the opposite sex, there’s something disturbing about the idea that landing an attractive partner increases a man’s .. what … bro standing? Validates him as a man. I guess it’s no different than a woman validating herself by landing a man with money or status. It’s shallow.

        13. Emily, the original

          Karl R,
          Anyone who has low self-esteem is setting themselves up for trouble … generally sooner instead of later.  And anyone who requires validation from an external source lacks self-esteem … by definition. If someone is using sex with multiple partners for validation, then they could end up with the problems you describe.  
          But wouldn’t a person who lacks self-esteem and seeks validation from sex, whether it’s from casual sex with lots of partners or committed sex with one partner, be setting themselves up for trouble. Either action is looking for an external source.

        14. Gala

          @YAG

          While I give you props for having the guts to do it, how many men are in touch with their feminine side enough to dance formally? That is by any definition a feminine activity.

          This is by far the most ignorant statement from you in this thread. In most cultures (and more so in patriarchal and traditional cultures actually) dancing is by definition the masculine activity. In a dance, females are passive and just walking around male dancers being pretty, if they are even present at all. Being a good dancer is a point of pride and a part of one’s identity as a man; a way to win women’s attention and show off. Boys learn to dance from their peers at an early age.. Being that I hale from one of these places, I am comfortable saying that challenging these men’s masculinity would be very, very bad for your health.

          I will offer a few examples from around the globe:

        15. Yet Another Guy

          @Gala

          In American culture, dancing is considered to be a very feminine past time.  My daughters studied multiple styles of dance when they were younger.  There were not a a lot of boys signing up for those glasses.

          Karl R comes across as being a very feminized man from reading his posts. He does not even think like a man. What kind of competitive man marries a woman fifteen years his senior? That is just as creepy as a man marrying a woman 15 years his junior.

        16. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          In American culture, dancing is considered to be a very feminine past time. 

          Bullshit. How many have you heard that women watch to see how a man moves on the dance floor … to see how he moves other places. Dance awkwardly? Well ….

          Plus, why do you think women love pop/rock stars? THEY CAN DANCE!

        17. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          What kind of competitive man marries a woman fifteen years his senior? 

          This reveals YOUR mindset, not his. Competition and shallowness.

        18. Gala

          @YAG

          …In American culture

          I think it is time you realized that your perception of what constitute the “american culture” is no longer “american culture”. The POV of an “misogynistic old white male” is rapidly becoming obsolete as diversity rises. In my city in America people like you are a  disappearing minority, while all of the above referenced groups are present and visible… sorry to break it to you but you don’t own or define “american culture”.

        19. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          there’s something disturbing about the idea that landing an attractive partner increases a man’s .. what … bro standing? Validates him as a man. I guess it’s no different than a woman validating herself by landing a man with money or status. It’s shallow.

          It is shallow, but it is reality for most twentysomething to mid-thirtysomething men.  While we can discuss assortative pairing until we are blue in the face, being at the same SMV level as a woman looks-wise in this age range does not cut the mustard due to the tendency for women to display hypergamous behavior when selecting a mate (i.e., a guy has to be at least +1 social hierarchy-wise). It also requires a serious amount of game to land an HB8+ in addition to being attractive.  I watched a lot of guys crash and burn during those years. Heck, I suffered my own fair share of nasty crashes.  It was painful to both watch and experience, but I learned a lot in the process. I learned to lie my ass off and do it in very cold and calculated way. That is why I say that guys do not come out of the womb behaving badly.  It is learned behavior.

           

        20. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          Bullshit. How many have you heard that women watch to see how a man moves on the dance floor … to see how he moves other places. Dance awkwardly? Well ….

          You do know that you just confirmed my thesis? It does not matter what women think about dance.  It matters what men think about dance.  It is women who like to dance in the United States, not men; therefore, dancing is by definition a feminine activity in the United States.  Most straight American men hate to dance. They learn to dance because it leads to women.  Have you ever witnessed a large group of men dancing together in an American dance club?  It is very common to see large groups of women dancing together in American dance clubs.

          https://books.google.com/books?id=qoTNpVQXql8C&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=dancing+is+considered+to+be+a+feminine+activity+in+the+United+States&source=bl&ots=HO6ATQThn7&sig=XDt_LgR75Q6d3isTZgQfqqEZND8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirlYb-9u7ZAhUkp1kKHQz6AnsQ6AEINjAB#v=onepage&q=dancing%20is%20considered%20to%20be%20a%20feminine%20activity%20in%20the%20United%20States&f=false

          As Basow and Rubin (1999) explained, gender refers to the meaning attached to being female or male in a particular culture, and meanings vary with ethnicity, social class, and sexual orientation. For example, in the United States, dance is considered a feminine activity

          Q.E.D.

        21. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Most straight American men hate to dance. 

          It’s fine if you want to be one of those joyless guys hugging the wall. Women notice that. And they also notice how a man moves. Trust me.

        22. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          It is shallow, but it is reality for most twentysomething to mid-thirtysomething men. 

          This behavior (and Karl R made reference to it about something else) is looking for something external to validate and fullfill you as a person, and it will never happen. It sounds new agey, but it’s true, and it has take me SO LONG to figure this out. The happiest, most well-adjusted people are centered, with a strong sense of self.

        23. Yet Another Guy

          @Gala

          You are the most delusional woman who posts to this forum. You do not know the first thing about what it truly means to be an American, to have deep historical roots in this country.  You are an economic mercenary with no allegiance to anyone other than yourself. You are merely here as an opportunist to skim the cream without giving back. When you make a real sacrifice for people other than yourself, we can talk.  Until then, you are just another clueless spoiled foreigner to me.

        24. Karl R

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “What kind of competitive man marries a woman fifteen years his senior?”

          YAG,

          When Gala claimed that your previous statement was “by far the most ignorant statement from you in this thread,” she meant it as a criticism … not as a challenge or competition for you to try to win by making even more ignorant statements.

          Let’s assume that marriage is a competition.  People compete for a prize.  If there’s a competition and the “winner” has to drink a gallon of raw sewage, I’m going to play to lose.  You can win the “prize”.  Thanks.

          I married a woman whom I want to have sex with and whom I want to live with for the next few decades.  That’s a prize worth having.

          But the most utterly ignorant part is where you draw conclusions about my wife … without ever meeting her.  Your opinions are not shared by anyone who has met my wife.  For example, a few months back I was chatting with an Eastern European ex-model, ex-actress (who’s about 15 years younger than me and 30 years younger than my wife).  When I mentioned my wife’s age, the ex-model blurted out (in disbelief), “But she’s so cute!”  (To which I responded, “I’ve noticed that too.”)

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “[Men] learn to dance because it leads to women.

          “It does not matter what women think about dance.  It matters what men think about dance.”

          Who are you dating?  Men or women?

          I have to admire your raw, Machiavellian, underhanded competitiveness.  If you’re not able to compete with the men who dance well, you’re going to lose to them … especially since that’s a trait that matters to women.  But as a second-best strategy, it’s fairly cunning to try to create “alternative facts” claiming that these men are somehow “feminine.”

          If you can’t beat them in a competition, stab them in the back.  All’s fair, yada, yada.

           

          I also like how your source cites to 20 and 30 year old publications to define contemporary “masculine” behavior.

          Times change.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “My daughters studied multiple styles of dance when they were younger.  There were not a a lot of boys signing up for those glasses.”

          So … you’re basing your concept of masculinity on the behavior of young boys?  Seriously?  Aren’t those the same boys who believe girls have cooties?

           

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “Most straight American men hate to dance.”

          Most straight men are afraid to dance, because they might look foolish in front of women.  They hate looking foolish in front of women.

          Do you believe timidity is a masculine trait?

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “It also requires a serious amount of game to land an HB8+ in addition to being attractive. […] I learned to lie my ass off and do it in very cold and calculated way. That is why I say that guys do not come out of the womb behaving badly.  It is learned behavior.

          How admirable of you.

          I learned to dance instead.

          (Actually, that’s a bit disingenuous of me.  I’d mastered cold, calculated deception by my preteens … and I largely gave it up before turning 20.)

          In addition, I like how you subtly blamed women for your learning to lie.  That was an extremely manly way to take responsibility for your own choices.

           

          Yet Another Guy said:

          “[Karl] does not even think like a man.”

          Well, at least I think.

          And before you spout off again on this topic, I’d recommend that you do the same.

        25. Evan Marc Katz

          Sorry, YAG. Karl is my long-time proxy for this comments section – and he provides even more logical eviscerations of bad arguments than I do.

          Game. Set. Match.

        26. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          It’s fine if you want to be one of those joyless guys hugging the wall. Women notice that. And they also notice how a man moves. Trust me.

          I can assure you that I know how to dance and dance well.  It is just that dancing has always been a means to an end (meeting or pleasing women) for me like it is for most straight men. It is not something that we do for the hell of it.

          The reason why a lot of men cannot dance well is because they cannot find or follow the beat, known as having a sense of rhythm (a lot of women do not have a sense of rhythm as well).  I have been a musician most of my life.  One cannot play in a gigging band without having a sense of rhythm, especially when playing against the beat in a syncopated piece of music.  Syncopation is what makes it easy to dance to a song because it makes you body want to reconcile the syncopated parts.  Two classic syncopated tunes are “Good Times” and “Le Freak” by Chic. These songs were sold as disco tunes, but they are actually syncopated funk tunes.  All of the threadbare bar band and wedding tunes that fill a dance floor such as “Play That Funky Music” and “Brick House” are syncopated tunes. If one listens closely, one hears bass and guitar percussive elements in between the drum beats.  The bass and guitar parts are syncopated, and a musician has to have a solid sense of rhythm to play these parts.  The time signature for “Brick House” is 4/4, which is your basic rock beat.  Without the syncopated bass, guitar, and horn parts, it would not be anywhere near as danceable.

        27. Nissa

          I have to say, nothing grabs my attention more than a man who can dance. It’s a pleasure to watch a graceful man in motion – probably why I had crushes on Danny Kay, Bing Crosby and Gene Kelly from the time I was a kid.

          Gene Kelly is a great example of how masculine dance can be – how it shows off the man’s power and strength. Karl and Emily are quite right that women equate the ability to dance with ability in the bedroom, and rightly so. (Let me take a moment to cool off here. Hubba!).

          However, I would agree with YAG that the number of white males willing to dance is lower than the number of similar women willing to dance. As Karl pointed out, it gives those men a tremendous sexual advantage. It’s also one of the very few ‘safe’ ways to break the touch barrier in a way that shy or non sexually adventureous women will allow, since the presence of others makes it a more ‘safe’, socially appropriate touch.

          Any man who is willing to dance with me in public gets bonus points. If he’s graceful, he gets even more.

        28. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Syncopation is what makes it easy to dance to a song because it makes you body want to reconcile the syncopated parts.  … .  All of the threadbare bar band and wedding tunes that fill a dance floor such as “Play That Funky Music” and “Brick House” are syncopated tunes. If one listens closely, one hears bass and guitar percussive elements in between the drum beats. 

          Everything is so scientific with you. Studies, graphs, charts. You wring the joy out of everything. If a man can dance, yes, that’s good. But it’s supposed to be FUN. No woman wants a man who says, “I’m sorry. I can’t dance to this. It’s not correctly syncopated for human dance polyrhythmic feet/hip-rhythm vibrations.” A woman also likes a man who isn’t so damn self-conscious that, despite his lack of rhythm, he’ll get out there and shake it. I can’t dance worth shit. A couple of shot of vodka and I’m think I’m Beyonce.

        29. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          It’s a pleasure to watch a graceful man in motion – probably why I had crushes on Danny Kay, Bing Crosby and Gene Kelly from the time I was a kid.

          Really? I don’t see those men as remotely sexual. Yes, their talent is amazing. I was talking more about maybe James Brown or Mick Jagger (who mimicked him).  In my generation, Terence Trent D’Arby, who also mimcked James, the splits, the microphone grab … the ripping his shirt off. Yowsa!

        30. Emily, the original

          KarlR,

           I have to admire your raw, Machiavellian, underhanded competitiveness.  If you’re not able to compete with the men who dance well, you’re going to lose to them … especially since that’s a trait that matters to women.  But as a second-best strategy, it’s fairly cunning to try to create “alternative facts” claiming that these men are somehow “feminine.”

          It’s typical. If all else fails, insult the other guy’s sexuality.

           

        31. Theodora

          . The POV of an “misogynistic old white male” is rapidly becoming obsolete as diversity rises. In my city in America people like you are a  disappearing minority, while all of the above referenced groups are present and visible… sorry to break it to you but you don’t own or define “american culture”.

          I’m always amused by women celebrating the extinction of “misogynistic white males”, the embodiment of Patriarchy. While one may find exceptions in every group, in my experience, white Western men – and men from the Anglosphere/English-speaking countries in particular – are the least misogynistic, most respectul to women,  tamest, most beta men on Earth.

          I don’t know how many men from non-white, non-Western countries you have met and talked to. Working in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in my country, I met and worked with a lot of men from Arab countries (both Muslims and Christians), South-American men, Indian men, Asian men. Most of these men (otherwise very educated men with careers in diplomacy) would be called unapolegetic misogynists in the West. They have high standards for what they consider feminine – in looks, behavior, manners, they don’t give AF about “double standards”, “objectification”, “patriarchal attitudes”, ‘male privilege” and shaming doesn’ t work with them – if you try to accuse them of sexism and disrespect, many of them will probably laugh in your face. The kind of men who, as soon as they visit a foreign country, would ask what are the best strip clubs or brothels and when someone suggests that it’s disrespectful to ask these questions with women in attendance, they would answer “they should stay at home then”.

          So, when you celebrate the extinction of those vile, patriarchal white males, be careful what you wish for. I’m pretty sure many American women won’t be able to handle the upcoming diversity, which in reality doesn’t look as idyllic as an official assembly at the United Nations. But maybe it’s for the better, because these women need a dose of reality in their joyous celebration of dead white males.

        32. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          You said, “YAG… Everything is so scientific with you. Studies, graphs, charts.”

          I completely disagree with this… He uses it as a distraction when he is losing an argument or when he is up against someone that knows the difference between peer reviewed facts and Wikipedia facts…

          Karl R, Evan, Jeremy, GoWithTheFlow… people who know how to actually read data spread sheets. Again I think he has a lot of good points in many things he says but they always get over shadowed by all the Manopshere crap that he spits out as pure fact…. I believe this is also why he avoids direct conflict with Jeremy because Jeremy is very versed in that whole world.

        33. Karl R

          Emily, the original said (to YAG):

          “Everything is so scientific with you.”

          Adrian said (to Emily):

          “I completely disagree with this… [YAG] uses it as a distraction when he is losing an argument”

          Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!  And we have a winner.

          What YAG said about dance music was mostly correct, but it added nothing to the topic being discussed.  (It had a bit more subtlety than pointing and yelling, “Look at the squirrel!” … but only a bit.)

          When someone’s trying to distract me with a squirrel, I find it’s far more interesting to look at what he’s trying to distract me from.

           

          Emily,

          There was something even more interesting in what YAG said about dancing … as it relates to women.  He has claimed to “know how to dance and dance well”, but he also claims to hate dancing.

          Years ago, Evan posted an article titled, “What Makes a Man Attractive to Women.”  To summarize the article, it’s the combination of passion and proficiency that attracts women.  Even if YAG trained and practiced until his skill with dancing exceeded mine, he would still be less attractive on the dance floor … as long as he continues to hate dancing.

        34. Gala

          Theodora:

          So, when you celebrate the extinction of those vile, patriarchal white males…

          I think you misunderstand. Nobody is celebrating the extinction of white males. What is being celebrated is the extinction of the specific mentality. These guys’ mentality is not at all different from what you’ve described. They just don’t have as much resources as your average sheikh 🙂

        35. Emily, the original

          Hi Karl,

          Years ago, Evan posted an article titled, “What Makes a Man Attractive to Women.”  To summarize the article, it’s the combination of passion and proficiency that attracts women.  Even if YAG trained and practiced until his skill with dancing exceeded mine, he would still be less attractive on the dance floor … as long as he continues to hate dancing.

          Yes, passion and proficiency are great. Women love when a man really enjoys something and lights up when he talks about it. But dancing, in particular, is great because it gets a man out of his head … and into his hips … if you get where I’m going with this.  🙂   It shows a woman he’s got a physical side even if he is also very smart.

          Adrian,

          I completely disagree with this… He uses it as a distraction when he is losing an argument 

          Yes, it is a distraction, but my point was … put down the charts and actually FEEL something. Years ago, I attended a family wedding and my stepmother approached me. She couldn’t find my father. We later found him sitting in the car in the parking lot. He thought the music was too loud. Would you want to be married to that? But inside, on the dance floor, doing the “white man’s overbite” (“When Harry Met Sally”) was, bless his heart, his brother.

        36. Adrian

          Hi Gala,

          You said, “I think you misunderstand. Nobody is celebrating the extinction of white males.

          Since you are new to commenting on here I thought I would just let you know not to waste your time responding to “certain” actuations “Theodora” makes since 99% of us believe that this person is actually a male commenter from one of the MGTOW groups pretending to be a Romanian woman.

          Sometimes he/she has some really good comments and sometimes he/she gets a little too passionate about defending us American males when it comes to dating for a person who lives on the other side of the planet and dates the opposite sex…

        37. Evan Marc Katz

          Theodora is an Eastern European woman who generally takes a pro-male view. No need to impugn her in this space.

        38. Adrian

          Hi Karl R,

          You said,”but it added nothing to the topic being discussed.

          Yeah Karl I know it is wrong of me to say so but I actually laughed out loud hard when he called you a feminine man because of your comments… My first thought was man he definitely hasn’t read most of your comments when you were more of a regular commenter on this site…

          Anyway Karl I know I asked you this question a few years ago when you would debate Obsidian but I forgot your answer so I need to ask it again…

          Why do you entertain such people?

          I guess I see people who once shown proven facts they still are unwilling to change their mind as a waste of energy… There comes a point when you are no longer learning anything new or useful and the conversation is just going around in circles…

          Chance and KK are a good examples of this. They went back-and-forth with each other for almost 2 years in the comments section about the male and female points of views on money. However after so long their debating deteriorated into an annoying squabble that was no longer educational or entertaining to the readers…

          Karl you have been gone for a while but trust me the commenter Yet Another Guy is not the type to admit he is wrong when shown reason about certain topics; so why engage someone like that?

        39. Theodora

          I retract my statement and apologize to Theodora

          Don’t worry. I skip about 90% of your comments anyway, because I feel like I’m losing brain cells. I read the other 10% for the involuntary comic effect of moral posturing, virtue-signaling and white-knighting.

        40. Karl R

          Adrian asked:

          “Yet Another Guy is not the type to admit he is wrong when shown reason about certain topics; so why engage someone like that?”

          Do you ever listen to “Intelligence Squared” on NPR?  Four panelists debate a current topic; the debate is scored; one team is declared the winner.  They never change the mind of the opposing panelists.  The score is determined by a before/after poll of the audience, and the points are gained by getting the audience to switch sides, or by converting the undecided.

          I’m not trying to “win” the debate.  (There’s no way to track who may have been persuaded.)  I’m definitely not expecting to change YAG’s mind.  But I am trying to communicate certain facts, thoughts, opinions and ideas to the rest of the audience.  Responding to YAG (or others) is a convenient vehicle.

           

          YAG is reasonably intelligent, and he’s fairly articulate.  If someone is already inclined to agree with him (and therefore not examining his statements critically), they’ll be nodding along in agreement.  He’s good at “confirming” what some people already want to believe.  If someone lies to women in an attempt to get someone hot, I’m sure they’d prefer to see that as “a serious amount of game” and “learned behavior,” rather than just “behaving badly.”

          But it doesn’t take much illumination to show people just how transparent YAG’s statements were.

           

          Another potential goal is to get someone like YAG to defeat his own arguments.  If you look at the first statements that I responded to, YAG’s claims weren’t all that irrational.  But as I (and others) began pointing out the flaws in his arguments, YAG kept doubling-down … and his statements became extreme enough to be indefensible.

          YAG isn’t the most extreme example of this.  I’ve seen a few people unintentionally turn into their own straw man argument.

           

          As a side benefit, debating here provides low-risk “practice” for me.  Eviscerating arguments (as Evan described it) is one of my job duties.  Every so often it’s nice to sit down and type out an argument when there’s not millions of dollars riding on the ultimate outcome.  And in this environment, I’m a lot more likely to get third-party feedback showing which of my arguments resonated, and which fell completely flat.

        41. Shaukat

          @Adrian,

          since 99% of us believe that this person is actually a male commenter from one of the MGTOW groups pretending to be a Romanian woman.

          You mean yourself and several of the female posters who you take your cue from? The label ‘feminine’ could accurately be applied to you actually, not Karl R. Your e-persona at least gives the impression that you become BFFs with every attractive woman within five minutes of meeting her, and I’m not trying to be offensive. It’s also ironic that you accused Theodora of being a man shortly after Karl made his post about the type of tactics people use to detract from the argument being made.

        42. Clare

          Theodora,

          “Working in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in my country, I met and worked with a lot of men from Arab countries (both Muslims and Christians), South-American men, Indian men, Asian men.”

          I can add to this list. I live in South Africa, and Zulu culture is about the most patriarchal that you will find anywhere on earth. I could list the reasons why, but I would be here all day. To start with, men are allowed to take many wives, but women are not allowed to take more than one husband. Rape and physical abuse of Zulu women would put rape and assault statistics in the west in the shade.

          “Most of these men (otherwise very educated men with careers in diplomacy) would be called unapolegetic misogynists in the West. They have high standards for what they consider feminine – in looks, behavior, manners, they don’t give AF about “double standards”, “objectification”, “patriarchal attitudes”, ‘male privilege” and shaming doesn’ t work with them – if you try to accuse them of sexism and disrespect, many of them will probably laugh in your face.”

          Yeah. As I say, I often suggest to people so ready to accuse “vile white males” of misogyny that they come and live in Africa for a while. The silence at this point is usually deafening. White, western men treat women better than most other cultures, and it hurts me to hear them constantly accused of misogyny because of the many wonderful, respectful and gentlemanly ways have been treated by white men.

      4. 3.1.4
        SparklingEmerald

        YAG said

        You have to consider that you are the exception to the rule, not the rule. While I give you props for having the guts to do it, how many men are in touch with their feminine side enough to dance formally? That is by any definition a feminine activity.  One does not see men dying to sign up for formal dancing.  Most men have to be dragged to formal dance lessons.

        YAG – For someone who seems to think he is God’s gift to women, your obsession with what other MEN think about yours sexual prowess, and your blatant hostility towards women smacks of latent homosexuality to me.  And your response to Karl R. is very childish.  Also shows that you know you are losing all credibility when you have to result to basically telling Karl he is a girl.  But that’s what little boys do, when they are losing to a man, childishly attack the man’s masculinity.  Your ranting to Karl say more about you, than they do about him. This is the first time in along time I’ve seen a male basically call another male a “wuss, pussy, girly-man, a sissy, ” etc in a long time.  The last time I saw this when my son was in Jr. High.  The little boys called each other those names constantly in their quest to climb to the top of the teenage food-chain.  By high school, most of the boys were over that behavior.

        I have seen vid’s of him dancing with his wife.  She is very attractive. Maybe he married her because he LOVES her, and she just happens to be older than him.  Of course marrying a woman for LOVE, and not to signal your “alpha-ness” to other males is probably a concept you’ll never be able to wrap your mind around, as you seem to be all about competition  proving yourself to other men.

        1. Adrian

          Fair Enough Evan…

          I retract my statement and apologize to Theodora

    2. 3.2
      Emily, the original

      Hi Adrian,

      Sorry Emily but 55 seems WAYYY too old for you!

      She is a female friend. We aren’t having sex with each other. We made a pact that, separately, we would take our who-has out of the freezer.

      And making plans instead of spontaneous sex doesn’t seem your style either.

      I am very calculated when it comes to sex. At least with the initial seduction. I don’t walk around wearing thigh highs and a lace teddy under my clothes all the time, for the hell of it. I’m planning that something will happen, though I try not to signal that to the man too early on. I’ve also usually set the stage in my room if I plan to bring him home. Now, what I will actually do physically, yes, that is spontaneous, though I may have a few things in mind ahead of time …

  4. 4
    Harlowe

    Why did it take Sabrina 3 years to discover that she’s not compatible with this guy?  They’ve made plans to get married and start a family, and now she’s going to drop “I don’t think we’re compatible” and “you don’t get me” on him.  It’s bad enough to hear that after 3 months, but 3 years, wow.

    And are they really incompatible or has she convinced herself of it?

    1. 4.1
      Sabrina

      @Harlowe I know right?! 😣 Thanks for your question. It shouldn’t have taken me 3 years. Sadly enough, I had doubts from the beginning about our compatibility which led us to break up about 1 year into it. I should have followed through with it then, but I knew he was a great guy and I got scared of losing him and asked him to come back. He did. I guess I just wanted it to work so badly because he essentially ticked all my boxes; trustworthy, great family, good with money, great job (engineer), loves to travel, wants kids, etc. On top of that, at 6’4 and with nice hard and dark eyes he is LITERALLY the epitome of “tall dark and handsome”!! We also had great sex of course which just added to it.  But throughout our whole relationship our convos often felt kind of empty and one-sided. Perhaps that’s because of our personalities being so different (Im a creative introvert who loves deep random convos and he’s a logical introvert who prefers talking about the here & now). This was a big catalyst for me feeling like I couldn’t express myself and wasn’t growing in the relationship. But i constantly hoped it would change and tried a lot of different tactics to see if it would. It didn’t. He knew about my concerns to a certain extent and it caused us to argue quite a bit. Probabaly because it was always about the same issues. I guess with true incompatibility it’s hard to change? I don’t know. I feel bad for dragging it on for so long but we actually broke up right before Evan posted this.    So all that to say.. I don’t think I convinced myself that we were incompatible.. I think i was in denial and hoping it would change for a long time. We loved each other but I think Evan was right… had it continued we would have been another divorce statistic. Lesson here: When you know a fundamental need is not being met, MOVE ON! 

  5. 5
    Sabrina

    Hi Evan,Sabrina here! I just wanted to follow up and say a big THANK YOU for answering my question!! I have been following your blog for years now and I was so excited and somewhat star struck to see my question up there. Especially because this situation has been weighing on me for a long time and it was sooo good to get a solid perspective from a total stranger. In short; you nailed it! I understand I didn’t give much context to my post, so I responded with a bit more info in my response to Harlowe above. To update you, I actually read your post about one week after I finally broke up with him. The break up was brutal, but reading your response helped me so much because you explained exactly how I was feeling without me even having to say it. More specifically, this quote was so dead on it was crazy:By your estimation, you don’t feel “safe, heard, and understood,” your relationship doesn’t seem solid, you can’t relax, and you have little faith in your future unless he changes.You were so right about all of this – even the part about not being able to relax and having some anxiety! And believe me – I am pretty much as relaxed as they come so this feeling is quite rare for me. How did you know?! Is it really that common? I definitely think you’re right about it being a gut feeling. That voice had been in the back of my head questioning things for too long and rather than listening to it, i was trying to compromise with it. I guess good relationships don’t work that way 😛 Anyways I just wanted to say thanks again for your response. This break up has not been easy, but your response has really helped me see things from a logical perspective and essentially it has helped me start to move on. I really appreciate that. Thanks again! Sabrina

    1. 5.1
      Karl R

      Sabrina asked:

      “You were so right about all of this – even the part about not being able to relax and having some anxiety! […] How did you know?! Is it really that common?”

      It’s common enough that many (most?) seasoned daters have experienced at least one relationship like this. From our own experiences, we can extrapolate some.

      It’s common enough that Evan hears similar stories from many of his coaching clients.

      But if you look closely, Evan mostly just paraphrased what you said. That’s how he knew (rather than taking an educated guess). You told him what you felt.

       

      Years ago, Evan gave a piece of advice that I used as a benchmark for my relationships: “Evaluate your relationship, not your partner.”

      Because of that advice, I had no regrets when I left lousy relationships with great people. It’s also the reason I ended up marrying my wife (with no concerns over whether it was the right decision).

      1. 5.1.1
        sabrina

        Hi Karl,

        Wow – fantastic advice. And so simple! I feel it totally rings true in my situation as well; the guy is great but the relationship wasn’t. Looking at it from that perspective makes the decision much clearer!

        I’m glad to hear this same advice worked out well for you. Thanks for sharing it with me… I’m definitely going to remember it and use it in the future.

        Sabrina

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