Is it Okay to Love Someone But Not Be “In Love”?
- Chemistry, Chemistry, Dating, What You May Be Doing Wrong
My girlfriend of 2 1/2 years just put all our plans on hold, including buying a house together and getting married later this year. She says she loves me but she’s not “in love” with me. What is the difference?
Fernando
Dear Fernando,
It all depends on how much value you put on labels.
Being”in love” is a pretty cool feeling. But it can also be an illusion.
Being “in love” is the most commonly used phrase to describe the feeling of “chemistry”. People who are “in love” with each other have obsessive thoughts about their partners – huge highs when things are good, deep lows when things are bad. People “in love” say things like, “you just know when it’s right”, and believe that they found their true soulmates.
Being “in love” is a pretty cool feeling. But it can also be an illusion. What people who are “in love” often forget is that the passion that brings them together is often the very thing that drives them apart. This isn’t always the case. Some people, like the ones in Helen Fisher’s brain chemistry studies, stay “in love” for an entire lifetime. And because of those few people, we all think that the only way to find happiness is to hold out for being “in love”.
That’s what it sounds like your girlfriend is doing to you, my friend.
If she’s asking herself, “Do I love my boyfriend?,” then she’s chasing a higher high, a greater feeling, something that you can’t provide for her, no matter how much you try. You can’t blame her, exactly. She wants what she wants, and she may not feel as strongly in love with you yet. But she quite likely might be throwing away an amazing partner in pursuit of that “in love” feeling.
I recently read a thought-provoking book called “The Post-Birthday World” by Lionel Shriver. The novel consists of two parallel stories – one is what happens if the protagonist, Irina, stayed with her solid and steady boyfriend of nine years; the other is what happens if Irina cheated on him and left him for a more passionate affair that turned into a marriage. Without giving away all that much, her passionate marriage doesn’t provide her nearly as much comfort as the safe relationship she left. She just traded in one set of problems for another.
When it comes to love, I might sit here and give advice every day, but there’s not a “right” and “wrong.” All I know is that the majority of people who have been “in love” with each other and “just knew” that they were meant to be have since broken up. That tells me all I need to know about the deception of passion.
I feel for you, Fernando, but you can’t hold on to your girlfriend. You should probably have a heart-to-heart with her, find out if she thinks she needs to be “in love” to get married, and reevaluate your life.
Because if she’s always going to be longing for a more passionate relationship, you’re never going to feel safe with each other.
That’s too bad, because relationships should be safe. Not just for her, but for you as well. If she needs to be “in love”, wish her the best of luck finding it, and go invest your energy in a woman who loves you unconditionally – no matter what label she puts on it.
Helen says
My gut instinct, upon reading Fernando’s letter about what his girlfriend said, is that she has found another man with whom she IS in love. She has put things on hold with Fernando because she wants to see if things will work out between her and this other man first (which probably will not – she would likely tire of him after a while, too).
Kenneth says
Helen,
I agree with most of what you said except that would like to add a correction….
“…is that she has found another man with whom she thinks she IS in love” 🙂
rawr says
no sane man would stay with a woman who “thinks” she’s in love with a stranger after being in a commited relationship for 2 years with someone who’s treated her well.
ColdTruth says
If she’s gorgeous, I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Some men prize looks over any other quality.
Ntchwaidumela says
you are absolutely right I was once in that situation but thankfully I got her back
ZMN says
How, do you mind sharing the story?
Jennifer says
I think you can care about someone a great deal, love them, but not necessarily be sure that you should be life partners. Chemistry can be one reason for that, but there can be a host of others as well. Maybe as time has gone on she’s seen some incompatibilities between the two of you that she’s not so sure she can live with. She still cares about you, but may not be willing to sign up for a lifetime of x. Doesn’t mean she’s chasing something elusive, she could just be sparing both of you worse pain down the line.
The end result is unfortunately the same- it likely won’t work out for you two. Which is sad but better now than after you’ve bought property and married.
I have to say- with all of the work that people say is needed to maintain a marriage, why marry someone you don’t at least start out feeling passionate about? It makes good sense to me to hold out for some passion- why are people so often derided for that?
p.s. I’m glad to see the old commenting system back 🙂
jayqueue says
One thing I’ve always wondered is if we used to be concerned with such things as “true love” for most of human existence (before big cities came about).. as I understand it, for tens of thousands of years, people would marry someone from their village and that was ok.. part of me is torn between thinking that either
1. the “dating” lifestyle has killed our ability to develop true love with someone unless they are constantly stimulating us, or
2. the requirements we now need from our life partners has increased due to the complexities of our lifestyles, or even
3. the (relatively) large number of partners people now have leaves them emotionally scarred and unable to be receptive to true love except in rare cases..
Mikko Kemppe says
Jennifer, I agree with you. I believe you can love someone with all of your heart and still have a knowing that you are not meant to share the rest of your life with this person. It is a new concept that I think we are just beginning to understand.
Jayqueue, I think you bring up a good point. Our society has definitely changed. I think people were not as concerned with finding “true love” as couples in the past were often more concerned with day to day living and survival. Marriages were formed primarily to survive, couples were loyal and there was love, but finding personal fulfillment and forming life long passionate relationships were probably not as important.
I think the signs that we are more discern today than ever before could be also interpreted as a positive development. As most of us have had much more time to develop and learn about ourselves than ever before, in a sense we also have more love to share than ever before. Therefore, naturally we also want to take more time to find the right person to share all of our love with.
Now while I believe this is a positive development, at the same time, of course, we are facing brand new challenges, such as our changing male and female roles. So while I strongly believe it is possible for us to find our soulmate and to be “in love” for the rest of our lives, I think it would be naive to think that this would be possible without also developing ourselves and up-dating our relationships skills.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..Is Masturbation Good Or Bad For You? =-.
Haya says
totally disagree , day to day life is the true and real place to show true love, how you look at morning, how you get angry, living and caring and pampering one another in daily life and difficulties is more important that illusion love , the Hollywood and ferytiles story love is nothing more than a suffer and pain and most of times it would end with hate so where is love ?? in history love was associated with suffering and suicide and this is not love but strong lust or strong desire to posses the other person sole , i think a true love is that of two people who have deep commitment and realistic love ,building family and staying together, i hope TV stop promoting that fake destructive love and yes what our parents had is more valuable and true that TV love , love in movies is only a high feeling that manipulate the brain point where drug affect , so its kind of drug , drugs make you happy , but eventually destroy you, love make you happy but then destroy you and the relation and the other, healthy relation based on realistic caring and sharing make you better person, give you stability, deals with daily routine, its not high, nor hurtful , i know this doesn’t sound attractive but its the truth
Stefanie says
Now THAT is a good point!
val says
beautifully expressed
imaqt says
I agree!
Marcy says
I agree ..it’s not fair to say there is someone else. Its absolutely a compatability thing..or at least it is in my case that and a lot of past failures and deep pain that make me want to take time to make sure before jumping head first.
John says
You have found him. He’s right there.
Aishwarya says
I completely agree Jenifer. I have had a long term relationship for 7 years n I love my bf way too much now also. Past 4 years i spent in confusion whether to marry him or not but eventually settled not to having discussed with my psychotherapist.
I have never had any other crush or liking towards other man. .just dat eventually i discovered me and my bf are incompatible n by not marrying him I am helping both of us in d long run as I cannot live in this relationship ambivalence. This is so stressing and taxing …took me a decade to understand that y im confused to marry someone whom I love so much. Like what world does not mean a women is being mean. Still I am single as im still not over with him but because heart us your it is better to go by your gut.
Believe me to be in this state of confusion n indecisiveness is do taxing that you forget to b happy. There is a brilliant book …”too gud to stay; too bad to leave”. It’s abt people like me and helps you tackle these issues …
Betty Ann M Coville says
I think your response is the correct one.
Honey says
I agree with Jennifer, #2 – while passion/chemistry is one possibility, there are also incompatibilities that surface only after a lot of time together, and you have to decide if you’re willing to deal with them – AFTER you care a great deal about the person. For example, if the BF had told me on our first date that he wanted to own numerous assault rifles, I would never have gone on a second date. Easy. Finding that out after two years in, when I’m very anti-gun? Now I have to ask myself – can I compromise in such a major way?
Although the lack of specificity here and the specific language his GF uses…it makes me think Evan’s PROBABLY right.
A-L says
I’m very interested to read others’ comments on this topic as they pop up, but I think a key element of Fernando’s letter is that he and his girlfriend have been together for two and a half years. They’ve gone past the honeymoon/passionate/intense chemistry phase (which researchers say generally lasts 6 months to a year, I think) and gone into the next one which is traditionally associated with married couples. Whether or not that means they should or should not get married I’ll still leave up for debate though (or whether she ever felt “in love” and has now stopped, or if she always just felt love for him).
P.S. Jennifer, how did you get the old commenting system back, because I still seem to have the new one!
Jennifer says
A-L, you know before I posted I was reading some of the comments from previous posts and they were numbered, like the old commenting system. Then after I commented on this post everything looks like the new system again. So maybe I just went crazy there for a second 🙂
Steve says
You got my hopes up!
Postus Interruptus!
Selena says
A-L,
It’s the 2.5 yr. mark that also made me think this situation is about more than missing the high of infatuation. Presumably, they know each other pretty well by now (particularly if they have been living together ?), and understand what life together would be like. It’s when “the pink cloud” has worn off, you are in a better position to evaluate the relationship realistically.
You brought up an interesting point: maybe she never felt “the high” with him at all? And is realizing she shouldn’t marry someone she thinks of more as a friend?
SC says
Selena,
But what’s the difference as to how “high” things initially were if it all ends up in the same place of friendship rather than passion anyway? What’s the difference long game wise? Can’t live a life from memories of when you first got together alone surely?
Eathan says
Too much emphasis is put on labels. Loving someone and being in love with someone can be two different things. I’m sure after 2 yrs she has love for you and an emotional connection. She probably cares about you, is concerned with your happiness and well being. But it’s also possible that she doesn’t see you as the man she wants to build a family with any longer.
Jennifer is on point with her comment.
.-= Eathan´s last blog ..Dirt Bike Boy – Summer Camp Edition =-.
Andy says
I will say that with every woman i meet i go through this dilemma. I’m a person who wants that chemistry along with that “friends comfortable” feeling. Sometimes i think i might be asking for too much but it’s very difficult to hide or ignore your feelings.
I have been reading Evan’s blogs for over a year now and do agree with most everything he says. I know it’s irrational to expect every relationship to be a movie type happy ending. It’s not that i’m looking for miss ubermodel to come knocking on my door, but i know what i want (one of the few men who do) and would like that relationship that lasts forever. I do feel better when i’m in a relationship. I do like that one on one monogamy but am finding it increasingly difficult for meet anyone i’m really interested in.
I have taken some of Evan’s advice and dated women that i wouldn’t usually go for but that doesn’t work either. I guess the moral of the story is that some people are
perfectly happy not having that fairytale ending. The meet someone their compatible with and build a nice life together. I just wish i was more flexible in my wants and desires but i do also need to be true to myself and not try to kid myself. It only leads to backing out of a relationship i probably shouldn’t have gotten involved with in the first place!!!
Katie says
Andy, I totally agree with you. I am also in the same boat of looking for that person where I want the ‘chemistry’ and friendship to be in the same package. I recently broke up with a guy because while I felt I really cared for him, I was never ‘in love’ with him. It was dull for me from the first day until the 1.5 year mark at which I said I couldn’t do it anymore. I felt it was more fair for him too, as he both loved me and was ‘in love’ with me.
It is difficult to find anyone whom I’m really interested in though, so I totally understand how you feel! I feel that I know the type of guy that I want and I know how I want to feel about him, but it doesn’t happen overnight for sure. I don’t think that people like us need to compromise though. From people I have known and anecdotes I have heard, I do believe that people always find that which they look for. Those who long for a deep love do eventually find it. Others are too scared to be alone and settle for something they’re not truly happy in. I’d rather hold out for a little while and get what I feel 100% comfortable in 😉
Jonathan says
Being too scared to be alone is what is used as an excuse to leave a relationship more easily. They keep this line in their head when in DOWNS of the relationship. The initial passion/lust fase naturally wears off.
YOU can stimulate this again though. The more you invest in a partner the more passionate you become about them. Especially if they reciprocate. Not a lot of people know this and I think this is key.
Furthermore if you look at the big picture, western societies birth rates are so low that in a generation or two-three there will be little left of it. So I think it is about time that people learn this.
starthrower68 says
Some are not going to like my response, but here it is anyway: I’ve been that girl and probably could have saved my marriage except for one thing. I was spiritually dead insided. I was looking for anything to make me fee alive. Now that I am divorced and started getting that part of my life in order (not that I have arrived, but I keep pressing on), I look for different things in a partner and I find that if I don’t have that fulfillment without a guy, I’m not going to have it with him, either. I don’t deny that there are those that are “in love” all of their life. But I think there’s more to it. They might never lose their passion for each other, but I’m sure there are days when they don’t feel passionate. Then they make the decision to stay. Love is often a decision, and they have the maturity and character to stay commited to the relationship rather than chasing after a high. I’ve experienced that high, and for me it was scary because I understood what true obession felt like and I didn’t like it. But that’s just me. I always ok to agree to disagree agreeably.
crazyred says
In a sad way, im glad that the feelings that I have are not just shared by me alone. I too, always feel dead inside…its like I am always searching for something more. I want passion m desire, yet am settling to stay unhappy in my 20 plus year marriage. He is a good man, just doesnt fully understand or accept my idiosyncrasies. I also married him for all the wrong reasons 🙁 I know I am only hurting him n myself by staying, but I feel obligated. Somedays id even go as far as saying trapped. I know its all in my head n I should feel very lucky, but I dont :(. Oye, life sucks sometimes!
Lynn Young says
Very good.
somegirl97 says
Oh I love this!!!!! Helpful to know obsession doesn’t feel good because when I was younger I would get that “in love” high all the time and now I’m in a relationship that feels very stable and loving and it’s very different haha… sometimes I worry it means we aren’t compatible, but I probably just need to get used to being comfortable and stable.. like I feel like we go together nicely but who knows if I would or wouldn’t go together even better with someone else? I don’t have enough experience to know yet :/ I read the book the 5 love languages (HIGHLY recommend) and he talked about true love is making the decision to love the person, and what we call the “in love” experience is just an obsession… what gives me doubts in my relationship is how I never felt the in love because we had talks about conflicts early on… we worked them out but it definitely killed the obsessive vibe…
WithLove says
Fernando….this is my take on this…just an observation but it seems your GF is not willing to take the full commitment on. She seems like you have become more of a good friend than
romantic interest. I love my guy and girl…friends…but I LOVE
my MAN! Love my son and family……but the LOVE I have for
that partner is different.
She might even not completely know what has changed. She may have met someone that turned on something inside her and inturn she is questioning your relationship. Do you want all of her or just part of her. I would rather have someone marry me that is completely into me and have NO doubts at all.
Hard to accept sometimes but things can change on us without any real understanding. At least she is being honest.
Clarify this for me though…..when she said she is not in love with you does that mean everything is off with you too…or is this just hanging in the balance?
Get clarity…..you deserve and need to know. She needs to figure out whether life without you will be better or life with you. Are you in it for the long haul? Are you sure she completes
the majority of what you need….? Just ask yourself some questions too……hang in there….we are all in progress whether we like it or not but remember does not mean life is over!!!! It’s more like a kaleidescope…always and ever changing! 🙂 Wishing the best!
Isabelle Archer says
Oh wow, I loved the Post-Birthday World. It was one of those intense and almost disturbing books that left me dreamy and a little upset for days afterwards. Lionel Shriver is a bit wicked. Highly recommended.
BUT – I think you’re only half right to say that “her passionate marriage doesn’t provide her nearly as much comfort as the safe relationship she left. She just traded in one set of problems for another.” True, she loses comfort, but she gains in many other dimensions through her passionate marriage … and the comfort of the stable relationship proved to be only temporary anyway.
I think the major lesson of the book is actually that you just can’t predict the rewards and wounds that will emerge from any relationship choice — and that ultimately, making a “moral” choice is never going to guarantee your own happiness; or that you’ll be paid back in kind; or that your supposedly moral choice will really lead to the best outcome for all involved. Shriver is essentially amoral, I think.
Selena says
“I love you, but I’m not in love with you.”
Very simply means, “I care about you as a person, but not someone I see spending the rest of my life as partners with.”
Painful when YOU don’t feel the same way.
At least it’s honest though. And less painful than someone who might lead you to believe otherwise because…uh…you’d be good at paying the bills; putting up the swingset in the backyard. Then…they actually do fall in love with someone else, or find the marriage so unsatisfying they leave “to find themselves”.
Better she told you now Fernando. Sorry for the hurt.
Steve says
Amen.
I have a friend who is in such a marriage. He pays the bills and being married to him means she doesn’t have to face her fear of being unmarried after 40 (gasp!).
Neither of them are happy people.
Steve says
Fernando;
It means she loves you like a member of her family and that she doesn’t love you like a woman loves her husband/lover/BF.
The relationship has come to a full stop. It is time to start looking for a new GF.
I know it sounds callous, but at least this is coming out now before you are married and entangled. You just dodged a costly and painful divorce.
I know that isn’t any consolation.
Be well.
vino says
Lucky Fernando. He got spared years of anguish and financial torment.
I’m going to translate Fernando’s letter
“Dear Fernando,
It’s been a wonderful 2 1/2 years with you, but I met someone who makes my ‘gina tingle. You don’t.”
girl-with-glasses says
I agree 100% with Evan, that the high one gets is usually an *illusion*. But even so, does that even matter? It may be an illusion, but the effects are very real, meaning it hits the brain where it wants it.
It could very well be a sign of the times. A lot more women have high libidos now. For me, maybe another side of the story is that the man usually takes the woman for granted in a LTR, or what is presumed to be a LTR.
I’m for fidelity, but it just seems men assume that ‘their’ women should be faithful, and it’s usually the woman’s role to excite her mate rather than the other way.
Just a sign of the times, relationship between the sexes are alot more complicated now days, with alot of misconceptions about ourselves and the other party.
Steve says
I don’t think Evan wrote that the romantic high is an illusion, only that it is fleeting ( scientists say it last 1 – 3 years tops for most of the population ). If you feel it, you feel it, its not an illusion.
Men and women have been cheating on forever. People like to think it is a new thing or that one sex does it more/less.
Both men and women in LTRs let themselves go, both take the relationship for granted, both claim — falsely — that they can’t control themselves.
As the pretty blond cylon says “All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again”
mic says
Women do have higher libidos these days, by all indications. And many who don’t seem to think that they should, that passion should drive them. It puts more pressure on males to look good, when perhaps there wasn’t enough such pressure before, though it needs to be said that women’s looks will always be somewhat more important due to wiring and sexual performance issues.
Whether Fernando’s girlfriend is operating too much on chemistry or not, it seems that he is being dumped in a very murky, hurtful way and maybe should see what he can do in the future – say, improve his style and avoid immature good-looking women – to have a better outcome.
vino says
I don’t know that *more* women have high libidos, so much as the freedom (read: lack of social stigma) to pursue them.
“For me, maybe another side of the story is that the man usually takes the woman for granted in a LTR, or what is presumed to be a LTR.
I’m for fidelity, but it just seems men assume that their women should be faithful, and it’s usually the woman’s role to excite her mate rather than the other way.”
I disagree, and I’ve see a few articles to support that. I can’t remember where, but I read that 60% of both spouses in a marriage are cheating. The point being here is that women are equally likely to cheat.
I think both sexes assume their partner should be faithful. that said, there is this myth out there that men cheat far more than women, which doesn’t seem true based upon several things I’ve read.
It’s each partner’s job to try and excite the other.
Also, you gotta wonder with that infidelity rate… look around. Every other person is cheating on their spouse.
Miss MatchMaker says
It sounds to me like she is confusing “in love” with the feelings of a new relationship…the newness wears off and off she goes chasing the high for more newness! Very unfortunate…
.-= Miss MatchMaker´s last blog ..The porch swing test =-.
Not Jerry says
You said it! It’s impossible to keep that “newness” going long term.
At some point reality sets in, and that’s what separates us, the men from the boys, and the women from the girls.
Expecting that new relationship high to persist is just naïve.
casualencounters.com/blog says
Love intoxication: overrated, and usually ends in heartbreak and disaster.
The thing is, this shouldn’t be news to anyone. It has been figured out since as long ago as there were people around to do figuring. Why does it come as a revelation to so many? Maybe they need to start teaching EQ classes in schools.
mic says
Yes to EQ. Yes to relationship skills, perhaps integrated with sex ed. Appearance management, too, of course 🙂
zann says
Chemistry-shmemistry. Chemistry is not passion. Chemistry is that sexually-charged little la-la land we go to when we meet someone new (“our eyes met, across the room”) and we could swear that voltage is being generated, just by being in the same room. It’s a great high, and it’s fleeting. Maybe that’s why we crave it so much. But why, WHY do people still use that tired, empty non-explanation of “I love you but I’m just not IN love with you.” As if that somehow makes being dumped so much more palatable. Not only is it lame, it’s meaningless. It’s her way of saying no thanks, while still saving face and convincing herself that she’s still a good person. Which she may be … but she’s not for you. Like Evan says, who wants to head out into life with a doubter? You deserve more than that, and maybe the best thing to do is to walk away with your head up and with the knowledge that she just forfeited something very valuable. I’m truly sorry for your pain. Be good to yourself.
FrogPrincess says
I totally agree with Selena that this is girl code for, “I’m just not that into you.” Whether or not it’s because the chemistry is gone (or was ever there), or she’s started to see little red flags popping up everywhere is beside the point. She just doesn’t dig him, and who wants to be with somebody that doesn’t dig you?
I do believe that love, and being in love, is a choice. I do believe that you can, and must, work to create passion and keep it alive. I do not, however, agree that you should just go for the safe, stable thing necessarily. I think there has to be SOME kind of connection, chemistry if you will, from the very beginning. Otherwise what’s the point? You might as well just grab the first person that offers to marry you.
Compatibility is about more than just things in common and acceptable lifestyles. It’s also about being attracted to someone on a physical, as well as emotional, level. Nope, doesn’t last forever if left to it’s own devices, but it can last forever if you put some work and effort into it. I think that’s where most people screw up. Where they confuse “love” and “being in love” and “chemistry” and all that other stuff. They think that if it’s the “right” relationship (their “soulmate”… GAG!), they shouldn’t have to put any thought or effort into it. And that’s a load of, um, poo. Every relationship requires care and nurturing and most especially a romantic relationship. Even simple friendship will die a tragic death if time and effort isn’t given to it on a regular basis. It’s just that most of us do it naturally, subconsciously. I don’t get why we think romantic relationships don’t need the same attention.
Which leaves me wondering just how much effort did Fernando really put into his relationship? And how much did his GF? Or did they just sit on their laurells and figure they didn’t really need to do anything to keep the passion going? We’ll probably never know, but it’s food for thought…
.-= FrogPrincess´s last blog ..He’s Just Not That Into You =-.
Selena says
I’m not convinced “chemistry”, or lack thereof, is the reason. I think it’s entirely possible that after 2.5 years together she does love him, but isn’t sure for whatever reason, the relationship will last a lifetime. Perhaps the reality of the wedding and buying a house forced her to acknowledge this. She surely wouldn’t be the first person to get “caught up” in plans for the future, only to reconsider the gravity of the commitment.
Andy says
Zann you couldn’t be more correct. It was just a nice attempt at dumping him without feeling bad herself. Yeah it’s going to hurt for a while, but better to know now than really get entangled and then looking at a mess to try to get out of it.
Curly Girl says
Here come the gender wars again: It’s amusing to me how when a woman says she isn’t into a guy she’s to be put down for that as if there is something wrong with her–especially if (as many are assuming here) it’s because she doesn’t feel the sparks–meaning, she isn’t feeling the hots for him. But if a guy isn’t feeling the hots for a woman, if he isn’t into her, if he isn’t attracted to her, it’s completely understood that it’s a non-starter.
Here is my theory: I believe this double standard derives from the notion that male pleasure is more important in a relationship than female pleasure, and that women are supposed to just suck it up (pun intended) because they are getting “other things” out of their romantic relationships. Meaning, material security. I believe this outmoded belief system is still hanging around because people don’t want to put it together–to acknowledge that historically women have been in a bad situation in this regard–having to give up what they want in a relationship in order to barter for what they need to survive, given that they were barred from certain areas of accomplishment (education, work in the world) that would have led to their financial independence from men. (The reasons for this exclusion may have been/still may be justified or not; that’s another discussion.)
This is why you get that specious “wiring” defense of male s*xual behavior. If “nature” ordains it then we don’t have to look at our beliefs about these things (or our wrong-headedness about what “nature” is), and we blog in a way that supports the idea that it’s OK for a man to dump someone because she doesn’t do it for him anymore, but it isn’t OK for a woman to do the same.
And so the outmoded belief system gets reinforced here, and no one has to change. Except those of us who are highly motivated–those of us who believe that our pleasure is just as important as a man’s and that our work costs the same to deliver and that our minds are our own.
Isabelle Archer says
Brilliant analysis. Eventually we will provide an entire feminist deconstruction of the dating self-help industry on this blog.
Steve says
and that is why Senator McCain got away with brazenly admitting he would not support equal for equal work during the 2008 elections.
It is also why reproductive rights are being eroded away and the ERA is still dead after 40 something years.
Too many women focusing on everything else.
Isabelle Archer says
Ummm, what is your point? That we’re being frivolous by applying feminist analysis to dating blogs? First – you’re making a huge assumption that nobody here is involved in other areas of activism. Second – the personal is the political.
vino says
Perhaps the biggest bunch of hooey I’ve read in some time…
Andy says
I do believe that your assessment is correct. Men expect to sit around and be pleasured by their woman without the expectation of giving anything in return. What makes women any different than men? I have come to learn that women are not different than men, they have the same wants and desires and i like that. It turns me on when a woman is in touch with her sexuality. That’s why men who live in the “traditional” manner don’t do well on modern dating sites.
But i think we all struggle with the “passion vs content” argument. It does take work on both parties and the expectation that the “fire” will die down a little is normal but it also doesn’t mean the fire has to be put out. We do live in an entitled society and everything should come so easy. Why can’t we seem to grasp the concept that the most rewarding things in our life are often the most difficult to achieve!!
A-L says
Oh, dear.
There are men (many alphas) who want what they want and always put their desires first, with less concern over what the female wants. Part of their reasoning may be that they’re paying for the predominant amount of the couple’s expenses (dating, marriage, or otherwise).
Then there are women (high-maintenance divas, princesses, etc) who expect the man to do and buy them whatever they want, and who has to check in with them for the smallest thing. Part of their reasoning is that they have what men want and can milk the men for the pleasure of access to them.
There are bad apples among both men and women, but I’d say that they’re the minority for each sex.
But as Vino said, it’s each person’s job to try and excite the other (or make the other happy if excite is too sexually connotative). It’s not one gender’s fault that there are difficulties with romantic relationships.
Sharon T. says
IMO, you hit the nail on the head!
JB says
@FrogPrincess this isn’t “girl code” sweetie this is everyone’s code for “I’M NO LONGER ATTRACTED TO YOU” and now you’ve been demoted to the dreaded FRIENDS ZONE. I used that line on my girlfriend 20 years ago and tons of men & women use it every day when they figure out “I care about this person’s feelings,I just have no desire to kiss them or have sex with them ANYMORE. I know it’s tough but it’s almost impossible to get someone to change their mind back again so you have to walk away and ………dare I say it………start all over again.
Helen says
Curly Girl – you are so right. You are so, so right. You’re awesome!
Just this morning I was thinking the same thing (but not as articulately as you) that in sexual relationships, society emphasizes much more that the man should get what he wants, rather than the woman. Your point about women thinking they’re compensated through material gains is logical; I think your unspoken statement is that now that we can provide for ourselves, we no longer just want to make sure a man is pleased, and want to make sure we get something out of a relationship (including sexual pleasure) as well.
This isn’t meant to be a man-hating comment, because I love men. But it is true, and society is changing, and we should change our expectations along with it.
Diana says
While it’s typical for the “not in love” comment to signify that the “intense” passion and initially strong attraction are no longer there, assuming they were to begin with, the only real way to truly know what her statement means is to ask her.
I believe passion in a relationship can continue to thrive for countless years beyond the stage of intense fireworks, if it is continually cared for and tended to, like seeking out new experiences in life, and growing as individuals. I have experienced this. It’s also incredible when the passion of one person ignites the passion of another, such as fulfilling a life-long dream. It makes you incredibly irresistible to each other.
It is only natural for the infatuation stage of relationships to subside, typically between 18 – 24 months, and either real love will bloom or it doesn’t.
Selena says
Comment by FrogPrincess
2009-07-17 02:47:18
“I do believe that love, and being in love, is a choice.”
I believe this is bullshit.
For one, love starts with attraction and I believe we have zero choice in to whom we are attracted. We have choice on how we ACT on that attraction however. We may find ourselves attracted to someone inappropriate, or at an inappropriate time in our lives. Perhaps we are in a committed relationship and become attracted to someone else. Or we are single, but become attracted to someone who is married. Maybe we are attracted to an alcoholic. Or a player. We can choose NOT to fall in love with any of these people by practicing prudent avoidance.
Being “in love” is not the fluttery, sexual excitement of “newness” with a partner. That’s infatuation. Delightfully, sometimes infatuation leads to falling in love. Sometimes not. Being in love means feeling an emotional connection so deeply with another person, you can’t envision life without them. THAT apparently, is what Fernando’s gf is finding lacking. Doesn’t make her fickle, chasing a “high”, or some kind of heartless whore. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t love Fernando, or is *choosing* not to love him. Just means she realized she might not love him enough to sustain a lifetime partnership. Should she be stoned for that?
If love were a choice, then we all could be happily partnered to anyone – logically. But we find it’s not possible. You don’t have to look very deeply into yourself to see this is true.
Comment by FrogPrincess
2009-07-17 02:47:18
I do believe that love, and being in love, is a choice
Marcy says
Selena…you are so right..period..nailed my thoughts.
adak says
Humans follow their primal instincts of intersexual selection, which is in my opinion falling in love. It’s a choice for us to search for it. Because otherwise, a hard fact to take in is that we are not monogamous by nature. Not being able to envision life without a partner would also take a lot of work to create a relationship in the first place. Learning to love someone does take time and is up to said person to decide if they are content of being with a specific someone. It took a friend of mine over a year, who originally said they would never date me, to say they now love me and in doing so decide to sabotage my recent relationship. Love is a loose term because you can have it for many people in your life, it’s just that for your partner you would also want to be intimate with them. When you know someone too well and you live the future that you envisioned with them, there’s nothing to fantasize about. And then youuu grow bored. That may be why people choose to divorce and start over chasing that in love feeling bullshit. Or they realize that it is bullshit and choose to remain single. It is something I feel people shouldn’t constantly chasing. It has become a narcissistic phenomenon in our society to think that we constantly need it to exist, but reality is not a movie. If it was needed, the divorce rate would be much higher than 50%. If you’re happy enough with what you have then why ruin it.
Evan Marc Katz says
Selena,
Sustaining a lifetime partnership IS a choice and it’s unfair of you to criticize FrogPrincess because she disagrees with you.
I’d recommend you check out Reva Seth’s “First Comes Marriage”, an amazing book which discusses the virtues of Indian arranged marriage. You would never want to forgo Western-style choice, but I’m pretty sure that there are hundreds of men you could be married to – if you made the choice.
Really, it ain’t that tricky. Find someone who treats you like gold. Treat them like gold in return. Somehow that gets lost in all this gauzy talk about being “in love”. Building a life together is not about that feeling, which invariably fades. It’s about your ability to be there for each other through thick and thin for 40 years.
Our inability to see past the first two exciting years to the rest of our lives is a perfect example of short-term thinking.
Married couples always make the choice. Sometimes it’s easy, sometimes it’s hard. But that’s what keeps them together.
Curly Girl says
40 years? That’s all? Way the actuarial tables are looking we’re all gonna be hitting 100. You and your wife might make it beyond 60 years, EMK!!
Hmm…wonder what your blog would read like 60 years from now? “I’ve written a new book–First Comes Online Dating–which discusses the virtues of a more traditional approach to love and marriage, an approach that has worked for decades but has now fallen out of favor. There are hundreds of people you could be married to–if you are willing to make the choice…” 🙂
Selena says
All due respect Evan, re-read my post; I don’t confuse that gauzy feeling for being in love. I wrote being in love means not being able to envision a life without your partner. Which if you think about Evan, IS what couples do in building a life together, in sticking with each other through thick and thin for 40 years. I’m fortunate to have examples of this in my own family.
And I don’t doubt that in all the world there are hundreds of men I could be married to – if I so chose. But could I LOVE each of those hundreds of men just by “deciding” to? Highly doubtful. And just because they treated me like gold, it doesn’t automatically follow I could love them so much as to not be able to envision my life without them. I might love some of them less, “as a friend” for example, rather than lover and partner.
If it were possible to “choose to love” someone then it should be possible for a heterosexual to choose a homosexual as a partner. After all, if you find someone who’s smart, kind, funny, financially responsible and treats you like gold, why not? But it doesn’t work that way, does it? It doesn’t work because there is that “something is missing” factor. Something that also happens in both hetero and homosexual relationships sometimes.
Believing you can convince yourself into loving someone is as much an illusion as mistaking the gauzy feeling of new lust for love.
Selena says
Let me add:
How far off is the belief “Love is a choice”, from “I can make him love me if I try hard enough – be patient – don’t give up”?
Isn’t a premise of HJNTIY philosophy really that it isn’t about him “choosing” not to love you, it’s accepting that he just doesn’t and moving on?
Now if you want to talk about people who are missing out on potential loves because they set their parameters so narrow…..I’m right with you.
A-L says
Selena wrote How far off is the belief Love is a choice, from I can make him love me if I try hard enough – be patient – don’t give up?
When Evan’s talking about First Comes Marriage and people are talking about love being a choice, it has to be a choice that BOTH people make. If both people aren’t committed to it, then it’s more of a HJNTIY phenomenon. But if both people are intent on making a relationship work, that’s the “love is a choice” idea playing out.
Selena says
A-L,
If there was a referrence to something called “First Comes Marriage” anywhere in this thread I missed it. In any case, I haven’t read it.
Diana says
To me, the “choice” is the action that one takes in the relationship, based on the love they feel. I don’t agree with the wording that love is a choice. It implies that you choose who you love and that is not true. But what you do to act upon that feeling is definitely a choice.
Selena says
Ah yes, Evan did mention that book in a later post. Did not know that was what FrogPrincess was referring to by saying she believed love was a choice.
Adele says
The discussions on this forum made me think of this quote
“Marry the person that you love, then love the person that you married.”
So love is both a choice and also not a choice. You don’t choose who you develop feelings for, but you can choose to stick with a person through thick and thin. Both of these are love, the latter, a deeper love.
-NN- says
I disagree
I could have been that girlfriend – and I NEVER EVER will put myself into that situation again.
I had a boyfriend 7 years ago, whom I “loved”, but I NEVER was “in love” with = I cared for him, but no I never lusted after him, he lusted after me… and I believed people like Evan – “that it comes with time, you don’t know”
No it doesn’t – and he got over his lust, and made me regret for not falling for him.
I find it irresponsible of you all to say that woman should settle. What it leads to is that there will be 2 unhappy persons in the end.
Sex is a primal thing.. it has to work FOR BOTH partners. I may love a man – it means unsexual thing, then he is like a brother – That love will never be like I would love a man, even if he lusts after my body.
I have been single for 7 years after my ex. I have also fallen in love after that, but it didn’t work. But I learned the difference and I will continue to looking, until someone whom I actually am IN LOVE with comes to my life, HE is IN LOVE with ME, and wants to build up a life with me. I have fun looking though, and meeting new men =).
If that “falling in love” won’t happen, then I die “an old maid”, since I don’t sell my principles, or my sexuality to a man, just to get companionship.
Buck25 says
Good for you.Never compromise yourself; in the end it’s all you’ve got! Evan will disagree with me, but let the compromisers, the settlers and the “satisficer”s convince themselves they’re better off with half a loaf: I’ve tried that too, and it left me empty. NEVER compromise, never settle, ever! Go for broke, cause if you really want to live, it’s an all or nothing game! Understand what that means; it means being willing to suffer a thousand disappointments and a thousand failures, for every moment of complete fulfillment. It means watching others seem to have what you think you want, while you may be alone; and in the end it may mean complete failure. If you cannot endure that, settle for what the rest of the herd does; they claim to be happy and maybe they are. All I know, in the twilight of my life, is that I have a thousand regrets for every time I settled, and not one, for the times I refused to. If it helps any, when all seems lost, I think of Teddy Roosevelt’s “Man in the Arena”, “…who if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place will never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”
Joe says
Hey Fernando, count your blessings at least you aren’t on the hook for alimony or child support yet!
JB says
The sad part is sooo many spend sooo much time “looking” for something that doesn’t exist or isn’t possible that they’ll look back and realize they’ve spent thier life alone most of the time chasing rainbows they can’t catch. Who in thier right mind would want to be in relationship with someone they’re not attracted to just because they’re a good “friend” ? That’s not romantic love,that’s FRIENDSHIP. I wish I could count the number of female profiles that say “I’m looking for my BEST FRIEND”. Huh ???
Steve says
The second part of that is assumed by the context and left unwritten.
“Im looking for my BEST FRIEND[ and my romantic interest ]
Jennifer says
That’s it exactly Steve. I’d like for my significant other to be my best friend.
Ruby says
Romantic love comes in many ways. Sometimes there’s immediate lust, sometimes it develops with a wonderful person or a “best friend” that you grow to love. But 2 1/2 years of dating is enough time to know. Sure the LW’s girlfriend may be throwing away an amazing partner, but then again, maybe the strong romantic feelings never really developed for her, or she hasn’t been able to sustain them.
I say, give the girlfriend space. Maybe once she has to deal with the harsh reality outside of her comfortable relationship, she’ll realize she’s going to lose a good thing. Maybe.
downtowngal says
I disagree that being in love is an ‘illusion’ or a ‘sign of the times’ in this case. It sounds as if she gave him a chance but is really not romantically into him.
I know many women in Fernando’s GF’s position who meet a great guy and are told by their friends & family to stick w him & wait for something to develop because a good guy is hard to find, and instill a fear of being single for the rest of your life.
So these women end up marrying these guys and wake up in 5 years miserable because they’ve married for the wrong reasons. And the guy’s confused & feels cheated, wondering ‘wtf’ has gone on, I gave her everything/treated her well, etc.
Fernando, as much as this hurts, take it as a good sign now and cut your losses. If she’s not feeling it by now she likely never will.
-NN- says
What I believe – based on my OWN experience is, that it is the sex that doesn’t work – but how to say that to a man, when it just isn’t his fault as such (no chemistry).. or if it is, he just can’t change his ways. It is just one of those things, that is soul destroying for a man to hear, and therefore hard for a woman to say to a man. Then it is her fault again…
But there is no way to fall in love with someone who gets his O, but I don’t.
That is the settling you are trying to sell, and that is what I hear you say GF should do – (like 50% of women do, according to research, they never get an O with a man they are married with)
Settle to get a “good man”, when men never ever would do that.
That is most likely what is there in the background. Simply put you don’t leave a good man if physical side of relationship works
– if it doesn’t then you love/care for someone, but you’ll never be “in love” with him.
Andy says
Yes NN you do have a point there. I have been in a relationship where the sex just wasn’t there for me and i do believe it is an important part of a relationship. I know it’s best to be honest with someone but how do you look someone you care about in the face and say “you just don’t turn me on”.
This woman was obviously at a crossroads, getting serious enough to talk about combining finances, getting married and being together for ever, and she felt she had to do something. Yes you can love someone but not being “in love” enough to want to spend the rest of your life with them. And it is a good possibility that sex has a key role in that decision. I guess we can say that “in love” is code word for “sexual compatability”.
Karl R says
Andy said:
“I guess we can say that ‘in love’ is code word for ‘sexual compatability’.”
That’s the way you and -NN- are using the term. That’s not the way EMK and several others are using the term. And we have no idea how Fernando’s ex-girlfriend was using the term.
Our opinions of what she meant are biased by our own experiences. -NN- spent 7 years in a relationship with no sexual compatability, so she sees that circumstance reflected here. I bailed on a similar relationship after a few months, so to me it seems unlikely that they would have stayed together for 2 1/2 years if there was no sexual compatability.
Regardless of what Fernando’s ex-girlfriend meant, she’s clearly telling him that she’s no longer interested in pursuing a romantic relationship.
Mary says
It seems unusual that she would have made plans, however I’ve read that the being in love stage fades after 2 years and then changes into a more stable love. So if someone is just chasing the feelings then they might have to change partners every couple years.
-NN- says
How can you say that she has been talking, there are only his words of it – when it can be that HE has been talking about buying a place, getting married – by voicing those hopes, he has been pushing her forward towards something she feels would be a prison for her.
You don’t realise how bad it is, when you are in the situation, because you have to live in it.. and you promised..
My experience:
My ex wanted to move in with me – since I was moving into a bigger place, he wanted to get rid of his flat, and move in at the same time.
He decided it, because it would have been sensible (much lower rent) for him etc. That is how it ended, I couldn’t promise, because I didn’t want to, I felt there was something wrong.
Then he decided that since he wouldn’t get anything out of it, there was no point for him to help me to move, and he ended the our relationship.
In short: when I would have needed to go forward because he pushed me forwards living together, I realised that I couldn’t just let it happen.
That is why it ended.
Only then, I realised how suffocated I had felt – before that moment I was just not aware of it.
I felt so relieved after he said we were over – like someone opened the prison door – the sentence I had got for my mistake, was over and I finally got out.
And what happened in my lifecan be happening to her too. You can’t know what is in the background, and telling women “to settle” ..
Do I really need to tell what I think of that idea?
Joe says
Then he decided that since he wouldn’t get anything out of it, there was no point for him to help me to move, and he ended the our relationship.
Actually, you ended the relationship when you decided you didn’t want to move forward with it (by moving in together). After that, he was right there was no point in him helping you move.
Selena says
For the sake of argument, suppose you do decide that “the feeling” (chemistry, whatever you want to call it) IS over-rated, and fades out within 2 years anyway. So your new search is to find someone who treats you well and will stick around for 40 years, doesn’t matter if you’re super attracted to them. AND…you don’t come from a culture of arranged marriages.
How easy do you think it would be to find someone who feels the same way? Seems to me, it’s hard enough to find Mutal chemistry. Let alone to find someone who would be willing to marry YOU without it feeling it themselves.
Karl R says
Selena said:
“Seems to me, it’s hard enough to find Mutal chemistry. Let alone to find someone who would be willing to marry YOU without it feeling it themselves.”
You aren’t getting the point. By opening yourself up to more people, you increase your dating pool … even if those people don’t relax their standards at all. This is true regardless of the standard you’re opening up about.
For example:
I’m sure J. Howard Marshall felt lots of lust/chemistry toward Anna Nicole Smith. I’m fairly certain she didn’t feel the same amount of attraction toward him. There are plenty of women who would refuse to date someone like J. Howard Marshall due to lack of lust/attraction/chemistry. By being willing to forgo that, Anna Nicole Smith expanded her dating pool to include J. Howard Marshall.
J. Howard Marshall just had to accept that she didn’t find him attractive (or delude himself into believing she did).
Just because you decide to forgo chemistry in search of compatibility, it’s not a given that you need to find someone who has done the same.
The trouble is, most people want to find a partner who has lower standards, without having to relax their own standards. (i.e. “I’m a three and she’s a ten, but I like what I like.”)
Curly Girl says
You’re suggesting that Anna Nicole Smith was doing something that we should emulate? Hmm. I have to think on that one. For about a micro-second.
Uh, no.
A-L says
In terms of the exact scenario you posted, I think Karl’s thinking is right.
But also, I don’t think people on this board are saying to go for the person you’re not attracted to but treats you well and will be around for forty years. It’s saying that instead of waiting for the 10/A+ on the chemistry scale, you take the person with whom you have a B in terms of the physical aspect but who has all of the other important qualities. It’s better than average, it’s pretty good, but it’s just not a knock your socks off, house-shaking, fireworks exploding extravaganza. Sure it’d be nice to have the whole enchilada, but in this situation we’re willing to compromise, but not settle. (I’d say settling is a D or an F, or maybe even a C.)
Selena says
“… knock your socks off, house-shaking, fireworks exploding extravaganza”??? People actually find that? And marry it? LOL. Lucky them. Or maybe not.
C’mon. I don’t think most people on this board are holding out for that, are they? Could be a very long wait.
The majority do seem to want *some* passion though, rather than “ho hum”.
Point I was trying to make is: it seems hard enough to find someone who is as “into you” as you are to them period. ( If this blog is anything to go by.) I think it might be even harder to find someone willing to marry you without “feeling it”, just because that might be a sensible thing to do.
As far as your example goes Karl, you actually make my point. You’re assuming J. Howard Marshall did “feel it” for Anna Nicole. What if he didn’t? Think he would have married her anyway?
Karl R says
Selena asked:
“You’re assuming J. Howard Marshall did ‘feel it’ for Anna Nicole. What if he didn’t? Think he would have married her anyway?”
I still think you’re missing the point. Even though we like to talk about “unconditional love” in romantic relationships, just about every relationship has a lot of quid-pro-quo in it (parent-child relationships are usually an exception).
Anna Nicole Smith brought sex to the relationship. J. Howard Marshall brought staggering wealth to the relationship. Without looks & sex, Anna Nicole Smith was just a dumb, sloppy drunk. Without wealth, J. Howard Marshall was just an octagenarian who liked strippers. I think it’s rather obvious what attracted them to each other.
But look at what they both compromised in order to get that one thing. J. Howard Marshall gave up on intelligent conversations, someone who shared interests with him, a partner who was an equal. Anna Nicole Smith gave up on looks, someone who shared interests with her, someone who would see her as an equal. I don’t believe either one felt that they had settled.
And I’m sure there are other couples out there where she’s the wealthy one and he’s the good-looking one.
But in a more realistic sense, there are any number of widows/widowers/divorcees in their 70s and 80s who date and fall in love with their peers. Somehow they manage to achieve that when none of them are particularly hot or sexy.
Maybe they compromise.
Curly Girl asked:
“You’re suggesting that Anna Nicole Smith was doing something we should emulate?”
I wouldn’t recommend emulating either Anna Nicole Smith or J. Howard Marshall. But they do serve as examples of how much you may need to compromise if you’re seeking an extreme degree of anything.
-NN- says
I’m not talking about “knock my socks off” attraction
– I have met a man whom I really fancied sexually, but no, I never did anything with him, since we weren’t ethically compatible (he thought he was entitled to say anything, insult and have rage fits because that is how he felt – and I don’t want to get involved with a man like that.)
Simply I want to be attracted to an attractive wholesome man who has his act together – I don’t want to live a half of a life like this woman talks about her choice:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/19/AR2009071901816.html
The Ann Nicole example makes an other good point, what a woman will do to get security and company..
“to widen the search” and I’ll be a happy woman – right!
Selena says
Thanks for sharing the link -NN-.
It should be posted whenever people try to rationalize how it’s a good thing to marry someone you’re not “in love” with.
downtowngal says
Folks, when you know you know. I don’t know how old Fernando & his GF are, but it could be her first major relationship and perhaps she’s not ready. Also, we’re only hearing his side of things.
Bottom line: if someone tells you after 2.5 years that they’re not feeling it, it won’t happen. If the woman’s not happy in a relationship it’s doomed. Whatever her issues may be, we don’t know. Or there may not be an issue, he’s just not the ‘one’.
Alison Ozer says
Well Fernando et al,
We really do not know what exactly the girlfirend is feeling or thinking. If she is willing to reflect and share, Fernando could pose some of these questions for both to consider. He could also propose a break time before continuing or discontinuing their engagement. Is doubt coming from the fact that the infatuation and romantic phase has past? Is there no chemistry- or just fleeting feelings? Are there real concerns she has for long term happiness besides the coming and going of passion? Are there things he could do that could create more of a spark for her, and vice versa? Things they both could do to become better lovers together? Sometimes however the thoughts and feelings behind a decision (and act) may not be so clear. I have found that passion can die when one does not sense a satisfying future with a particular partner. This might have more to do with the actual scenario one imagines can or can’t evolve, rather than the qualities of the person. Only the two could sort this out, and that said if one partner – the girlfriend is unwilling to explore this together, then it is just time to move on. And yes, it is better to discover this now than after marriage and financial or familial attachments have grown. Marriage is really a process of growth and discovery together that requires commitment. We can love or have love and respect for many persons, but living with each other and deepening that love, having children, is a choice and opportunity for two to make.
hunter says
The only chemistry for men is an erection, plain truth….
vino says
And here I thought beauty was a light switch away….
A-L says
knock your socks off, house-shaking, fireworks exploding extravaganza??? People actually find that? And marry it? LOL. Lucky them. Or maybe not.
C mon. I don’t think most people on this board are holding out for that, are they? Could be a very long wait.
I have close friends that are holding out for that. Heck, I’ve been in that very same boat myself. I’m getting myself out of that boat, however, into a happy but more realistic situation. But when people are posting about wanting the chemistry or not having chemistry with someone, this is what comes to my mind. And when I talk about compromise in terms of the chemistry factor, I’m talking about not holding out for the extravaganza but instead going for something that’s good and nice.
So if people are not referring to the fireworks extravaganza when they’re talking abut chemistry (or sexual compatibility) then what are they talking about?
Selena says
They’re talking about sexual compatibility that is a bit more passionate than “nice”.
I don’t know how long people expect “fireworks extravaganza” to last, but “just nice” can become just boring in as short amount of time.
Or shorter.
Andy says
Selena, you’re absolutely correct! Anyone who say sex is not an important part of relationship is kidding themselves. If that is the case then they need to find someone who feels the same way. It’s not a coincidence that sexual reasons are a big part of why relationships end. It mat not be “fireworks” all the time but both parties need to feel satisfied and happy with each other!!
A-L says
Maybe this is just a semantics issue. For me good/nice/enjoyable are all interchangeable whereas passionate/fireworks/knocking-socks-off are in the same category.
Selena says
A-L,
Have you had sex?
A-L says
As you may be aware from other threads, I have not. But I’ve done most things in the “everything, but” category (and no, I don’t feel like going into a debate about why most but not everything). Granted, I may be speaking from a position of ignorance, but I’ve gone out with guys where I haven’t even felt like doing anything physical, to where it’s been “ick,” to “enh/okay”, to being “better than not,” to “really very good” to “dang.” I don’t think one extra position is going to change my impression of our physical relationship.
But I was just rereading my previous post and in case it wasn’t clear I was saying that good=nice=enjoyable and that passionate=fireworks=knocks your socks off. I was not saying that enjoyable=fireworks.
Selena says
A-L, I wasn’t sure. I thought I had read a post of yours last year regarding that, but didn’t know if it was true or perhaps had changed.
To me, “good/nice/enjoyable” are words I would use to describe playing minature golf.
And sometimes sex when I wasn’t really into it, but enjoyed the connection anyway. Like morning sex when I was still sleepy, not overly motivated and my partner and were trying to spare each other our bad breath. Or we were tired, stressed, but still felt the “need.” Or were using sex in a kind of “touch base” kind of way.
If it was always like that I would be disappointed and dissatisfied because I’ve had much better. Not “fireworks extravaganza” every time, but better – more intense, more connected sometimes almost spiritual in nature sex.
Hard to describe, but certainly words like “nice”, “enjoyable, “okay”, fall far short. Which is why to me, someone willing to settle for just “okay” with a partner is cheating themselves, AND THEIR PARTNER.
I don’t know whether or not you can equate “doing everything but…” with a sex life that includes intercourse as an integral part of it. Maybe some of the others have an experienced opinion as to that.
A-L says
I’ll let someone else who’s has the experience of sex & everything but comment about the differences.
But I think I was right about the semantics difference. For me, describing the physical aspect of a relationship has its own standards. Good in sexual matters is not the same as good in putt-putt.
I might say that a high school play was good. That does not mean it was anywhere near the same caliber as a Broadway play that I also described as good. I use that adjective based on what that category is supposed to be, not as a universal/means-the-same-in-every-case word. So if I say that the physical experience was good, for me that does indicate that the connection/intensity you mentioned is there, because it’s supposed to be within a serious relationship. Those just aren’t words that I would naturally gravitate towards using myself.
I guess my teacher ways show here. But for a grading/equivalency scale
A=Excellent=Fireworks
B=Very Good=Really very good
C=Average=Better than not
D=Below average=Enh
F=Failing/Unsatisfactory=Ick
Does this make sense?
P.S. I don’t know if this will work because it says it won’t nest, but yours was able to nest, so I’ll try it too. Evan, I want the old commenting system back!
Buck25 says
A-L ,
One word, settling. In my opinion, that’s what a “relationship” (I wouldn’t call it that myself) without the attraction, actually is. A relationship like that , for me anyway, is not a relationship, it’s a simple friendship, and that is ALL it is, or ever will be. And friendships are fine, as long as we remember that’s all they are.
I’ve had relationships without passion; I’ll never have another. Some things are worse than being alone, or dying alone. Life without passion? That’s just a slower way to die.
@ Karl,
I don’t know my friend; at this point in life, emulating J. Howard Marshall seems like a far better option than anything I’ve got a chance at. I’ve found that being old sucks; but being old with an old unattractive woman I wouldn’t want to even touch sucks worse. As for the “settle or you’ll die alone” thing that gets mentioned here a lot…ultimately we all die alone anyway, so what’s the big deal?
Karl R says
Buck25,
Just to set things in perspective, A-L and I have both ended up with spouses that we find attractive (though I expect A-L, like me, doesn’t consider her husband the most attractive possible man out there). Both of us have sex lives that we enjoy.
So we needed some attraction, but not drop-dead gorgeous. We needed a good sex life, but not the best sex of our lives. By being willing to compromise some on those two things, we didn’t have to compromise at all on the things we believe are more important.
It’s not entirely clear whether you consider a life of good sex with a rather attractive woman to be a life that “has passion” or a life that is “without passion”.
Buck25 said:
“at this point in life, emulating J. Howard Marshall seems like a far better option than anything I’ve got a chance at.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think you’re wealthy enough to emulate him.
Buck25 asked:
“I’ve found that being old sucks; but being old with an old unattractive woman I wouldn’t want to even touch sucks worse. As for the ‘settle or you’ll die alone’ thing that gets mentioned here a lot…ultimately we all die alone anyway, so what’s the big deal?”
I was happily single for years before I got back into dating (and eventually got married). If all your dating options are worse than being single … well … there’s your answer.
There are lots of happily single people out there. (You don’t see them on this blog, for the exact same reason you didn’t see me on this blog before I decided to get back into dating. I had better things to do with my time.) I support people who consciously make that decision.
The people I give a hard time to are the ones that feel obliged to tell everyone (in interminable, boring detail) why they are single (dating sucks, the opposite sex sucks, the attractive people who get all the attention suck, it’s everyone’s fault but theirs).
From what I’ve seen so far, I have every reason to believe that you’re more likely to end up in the former category, not the latter. If that’s what will make you happier, stop worrying about dating. Free up some time for your hobbies.
Buck25 says
Karl,
Drop dead gorgeous? No; in fact I’ve had the best chemistry (and sex) with women a couple of notches ( maybe a bit more) below that. Once again, I don’t mind dating a grandmother…I just am not the least bit attracted to someone who looks like my grandmother. Great looks? Not necessary. Great sex? Absolutely essential! Just being honest. I guess it’s fair; I mean, since virtually every woman thinks any man my age is completely unattractive to them, I don’t suppose they can resent it too much that I find the majority of women over 50 to be equally unattractive to me. The dating options available to a 67 year old man , even one who is successful, active and extremely fit, are next to non-existent. The comparatively few still attractive women now all want younger men, and the others…I would rather be shot by a firing squad than kiss something like the mounds of blue hair, wrinkles, blubber and cellulite that email me(unsolicited); no amount of torture, including being burned at the stake, could induce me to be seen in public with that on my arm; and the mere thought of having sex with one of these creatures (if they even still do) has a distinct emetic effect on me (I can feel the bile rising in my throat just from writing about it). Most of them wouldn’t look remotely attractive if I were 80 (an age I personally hope to never see)
If I had it all to do over again, I’d have never married, never had a relationship longer than six months, learned every player trick in the book, had a life of booze and women, said to hell with the rest of humanity, and shot myself at 61 like Ernest Hemingway (who I think had entirely the right idea of how to live like a man, instead of a woman’s lap dog).
As for old J. Howard, I’ve done well but not quite that well; even so, I’m not sure I wouldn’t like to try a scaled down version of what he did; there are lots of women I’m more attracted to than the one he had anyway, and a lot of them come cheaper. Given that women find us all equally worthless after 55 or so, (based on what I read here), I guess I’d rather be loathed by a cheap gold digging slut on my arm, than hated by an aging hag in my bed. (Besides, doing the former openly annoys the hell out of every fundamentalist Bible thumper down here, and since we have entirely too many of those down south, I consider anything that irritates the type to be a delightful sport, as I cordially detest their sorry species). I dunno, maybe we ought to put women in charge of it all; since they consider us old guys so completely worthless, maybe they could at least do for us what we do for a sick dog, and put us put of our misery, but then again,I guess there’s too much misandry for that, so maybe not. As it is,I’m sure some of the distaff set here is reading this with sadistic glee. Might as well give them their laugh for the day I guess; I don’t really care anymore.
Karl R says
Buck25,
I guess I was mistaken. You are the kind of person who is going to linger around here and whine interminably about women being the cause of their desire not to date.
Buck25 says
Karl, Think whatever you %$#$%#@ please. I said what I had to say. Just remember one thing; you haven’t made it to the age where you’re in that group so many women here love to hate, and yes, from what I’ve seen written here, “hate” is the operative word. That is all.
Buck25 says
Oh, and by the way Karl, if you’re not seeing all the man-hating directed at older men on this forum, then you and I must not be reading the same posts. At any rate, I find it toxic, and I refuse to consume any more of it. I’m outta here!
Ruby says
knock your socks off, house-shaking, fireworks exploding extravaganza??? People actually find that? And marry it? LOL. Lucky them. Or maybe not.
Is it a bad thing to want that? Is it always illusory? Granted, passionate feelings may burn out quickly, but they also may last last much longer than lukewarm feelings will.
@ hunter
“The only chemistry for men is an erection, plain truth.”
Good point. Perhaps women are supposed to be more complex than that. If women are guilty of over-thinking whether a guy is into them or not, I think we often also over-think whether or not we’re really into the guy.
Mary says
Usually when I meet a fireworks guy, I know that I’d be in for trouble, cause a lot of other women want them also. Competition gets old after awhile. Also some times they have a type of baggage from when other women have spoiled them and such.
-NN- says
>Author: Joe
Comment:
Then he decided that since he wouldn’t get anything out of it, there was no point for him to help me to move, and he ended the our relationship.Actually, you ended the relationship when you decided you didn’t want to move forward with it (by moving in together). After that, he was right there was no point in him helping you move.
……………
That is what I said, I felt that I got out of prison =).
Simply because it hadn’t been working – he just thought he did the deed, but our relationship had been dying for last 6 months – he just finalised it. Last 6 months every discussion we had had, had ended to the uncomfortable silence and he felt “suffocated” near me. At that situation I wasn’t ready to let him move in with me, since we couldn’t talk about anything.
So why would he want to move in with me? The only reason what I see, was that my rent would be pretty cheap as my parents owned the flat.
Since he wasn’t going to get that, his interest was over.
And I felt so relieved – I still do.. and that is the reason I would never do as Evan suggests – if I don’t feel physically attracted, I don’t let that go further.
Andy says
Once you go down that road, it’s very difficult to back peddle. I’ve done that a couple of times and vowed i would never do that again. I did try to build a relationship with a couple of women with whom i wasn’t all that attracted to, trying something different as Evan suggested, and it doesn’t work for me. I did feel bad, kind of like i was leading those women on, allowing them to develop feelings for me and then finding myself not wanting to be in the relationship any longer. It makes for tv like drama. Not good!
So now i have learned my lesson and stick to dating women that i have an attraction for. Sure i go on less dates than i used to but the absence of drama more than makes up for it!!
Ava says
I’ve tried it too, and I’ve had a guy or two try it with me. I agree, it’s a recipe for resentment and guilt. Nothing worse than a person thinking that someone is into them sexually/romantically, and then finding out they really aren’t – ouch! A basic physical attraction needs to be there.
Selena says
-NN-
Sounds like the guy was more into having cheaper rent than he was into you, yes?
So it goes.
Hot Alpha Female says
I totally get what you are saying Evan. I do. I’m not sure whether I agree with it though.
I think this guy needs to take on board that there are things he can do in that relationship to keep these fresh upbeat and sparky.
Being in a long term relationship and having chemistry are not two things that are mutually exclusive from eachother.
All im hearing from this chick, is that yes, she does love this guy, but feel the passion, the chemistry is no longer there.
Basically she is bored. And dam bored and she is wondering, if she is this bored and safe NOW … what will it feel like in 10 or 20 years time.
No doubt that when you enter into a long term relationship the dynamic changes, BUT i think its the responsibility of BOTH partners to keep the spark alive.
If they both can’t do that … then maybe its just not the right match.
Hot Alpha Female
The Only Women You Should Take Dating Advice From
.-= Hot Alpha Female´s last blog ..The "Hes Just Not That Into" Rules. Do They Really Apply? =-.
Mary says
I agree with you in this. I think also that people have different personalities so while one might want to go out and party all night, the other might not want to go out at all. If it’s like the wrong match there’s perhaps no making it work, however if it’s close then there’s a possibility.
Amy says
It’s so tough. I’m 37-years-old and have been dating a great guy for 8 months but I’m not attracted to him. I feel like better for most of the guys I date than they are for me. They have financial problems, don’t have a real job, or don’t want kids. Now I’m with a real man who treats me very well. We have fun and have great conversation. When I met him, I wasn’t attracted to him. I’ve stayed with him because I know chemistry isn’t everything. Kissing him is very difficult. It simply doesn’t feel natural and I don’t have any desire to be intimate with him. My friends say to let him go, but I’ve had the chemistry in the past but most men weren’t marriage material. So, now I have the guy who would make a great husband and father, but I don’t want to kiss him. It’s not an easy choice for me.
melissa says
You are not alone Amy. I am 100% in this exact situation. I am 38, he is 44 and he treats me like no man in my life has ever treated me before. Such respect and admiration and I know he has the attraction for me that I do not feel for him. I am ‘a good person’ and have the ability to like personality over looks, but it’s hard; because I’ve had ‘passion’ and it’s very exciting. But the passion does fade and often comes with a guy that doesn’t treat you well in all the ways you want. I also find it very difficult to kiss and be intimate and spontaneously touch this guy, but I stay with him because I am 100% emotionally fulfilled and we ‘get’ one another. It’s hard – to know you’re actually completely compatible with someone but not physically attracted.
Everett552 says
Sounds like #91 is settling.
Subtle says
I am going through the same thing with my bf. But I am that woman. I am only 26 and him 25. We moved in together after a little over a year, have a child, but this child is not his biological son, but he is still his daddy. We have been together for 4 years. Great first 2 years and the last 2 years not so great. We never do anything together, we work, take care of our son, have a nice apartment together, etc… but he wants to sit at home on weekends, watch hockey, have friends over who are also my friends, and drink. I take blame for some of it, as I let it happen. After speaking with him about this for a very long time, I have decided to call it quits. I have opened up to him one last time, crying in the process. Nothing seems to work. We have even been in discussions about marriage, another thing he does not want and I would at least like to have the hope of one day having. He truly is an amazing person and I love him, but we are just too different and we want different things. So maybe this is how Fernando’s GF feels? That’s all I got. It’s hard to let go, I know and I am that girl.
Andy says
Well Subtle, as the song goes, sometimes love just ain’t enough!!
Subtle says
LOL so true…. but still we are finding it very hard to part. How do you convince another that it is the right thing? I find there is a lot of denial from his point as if this isn’t happening, but from where I am it is happening. My hope for this situation is gone, but maybe not his?
All Carrion says
I’m also stuck in a “passion vs comfort” situation. I’ve been with my wife for 10 years total. Married for 3 of those. We’ve been separated 7 months. We did an in-home separation for a while, but she moved out about 3 months ago.
I love her very much. I know she is a good person and I trust her. I know how big those factors are. However, the passion is gone from the relationship. She is not very aggressive sexually, but I wish she was. I would like her to be more outgoing in general. In fact, I couldn’t even reach orgasm over the last couple of years without thinking of another woman or having some sort of fantasy in my head.
That’s not to say that’s she’s not attractive. She is, but more than just looks factor in.
It’s confusing to me why all of the sudden these issues have come up based on how long we’ve been together. I’m a very passionate person in many facets of life. I love discovering more about myself and trying new things and she seems content to sit on the couch and doesn’t really have many interests of her own.
I was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes a couple of years ago and I wonder if that’s factored into the change.
A year ago, I was on board to have a baby. When she stopped taking her birth control, reality set in and it became clear to me that I was not ready. I reevaluated everything.
We tried therapy, but it didn’t make much of a difference. I’ve taken a long, hard look at myself and seen some things that were not very easy to expose. I guess I thought that after she moved out, it would be clear to me which path was the correct one, but unfortunately I’m still just as confused.
Maybe that in itself says something?
If anyone has any thoughts on the situation, I’d love to hear them.
It’s hard to walk away from that history and comfort and into the “unknown”. But I don’t want to be unhappy with my marriage and resent her. I think we’ll both end up miserable.
Queen says
I love you but not in love with you, If someone ever tells any of you that, RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is game!
LS says
I just found this site. Read this post. I can see all sides of this logically and emotionally. We all are very different and different things are important to us. I was married for a long time and left because there was no passion. Security, be there for me… it was there. I married 29 years ago because, he brought lots of things into my life that I did not have but he never “felt chemistry with him, nor did he really turn me on”. It was always missing. So.. .I can see not settling. Since then I was in a relationship that was so passionate and sexually/emotionally ( satisfying and that we were compatible in so many other ways ) that I knew that I had found the man of my dreams….he called, wrote me love notes in my lunch daily, we communicated, we were there each other…. but one day after 2 years he just stated pulling away away and said “I am not “in love with you”… via text! Since then and pulling myself up and making several internal adjustments, I meet a man whom there was immediate mutual attraction. We have so much in common it is almost scarey, compatibilities, tastes, styles, preferences, faith, …. you name it it was on the same plain. He is in my life and leaves… “sighting that I dont turn him on, or look the part, have real sexual chemistry with me”…. OK go. But he has come back repeatdily we have these “breakthrus”… and thing are great. Then it repeats itself again. Ok… what is up here? If you are not “into someone, leave them alone”… and why come back?
I have lived on all sides of the gammit. Relationships that offered Saftey, security,, be there unconditionally… to passion, awesome sex life,…. and recently find a person that life glides with but is totally rejected ” real sexual chemistry”. Yes I have been told to my face… you dont turn me on! In this last case he would be open for a short time but would not invest himself in creating any chemistry. he was like a cold wet fish… but attraction on multiple levels was there. I still cant figure that out.
It is quite confusing and frankly and heartbreaking too.
Relationships take work, and yes there is choices involved. Feelings come and go and they are stronger than others at times. We often do trade one set of problems for others. The grass is not greener on the other side, it is just different grass with weeds too.
Because of my personal experience and living thru what I dont know if I will get it right. I dont think that we will find everything in one person. Committment is not a popular word anymore. We live in a bump and dump , convenience society. The longer I live the less I feel I know.
ange says
“loves you undconditionally” Is romantic love unconditional? I have to strongly disagre. the only unconditional love is the love of a dog for its owner and possibly monther’s love with some extentions. In romantic love conditional part is what separates its from everything else. You have give many advices on how women can improve their love lives, and somehow there were always conditions for the ladies. No woman is going to love a man just because he is a man, he has to have and keep/evolve certain qualities that keep her interested. that’s the only way romantic love works.
JDlover says
Hello,
I just had the same problem I am a female and I had this boyfriend for 3 years. We broke up last year and during our 5 month breakup I dated one guy, we broke up and then I found this amazing guy that treated me with so much affection and passion than my bf of 3 years. Well, he came back wanting to be with me and I thought I could too., But I realized while being with him I couldnt stop thinking about passionate guy and the things he made me feel like “in love” feeling. So eventhough I got proposed too, I told my bf of 3 years I couldnt be with him and I went off to resume things with passionate guy. For now, things are good.
Tia says
sometimes the way to fall in love with someone is to love them. i know we can’t fake chemistry or the euophoria of being in love, but that natural high generally wears off in about 2 -4 years!
phenylethylamine.oxytocin, dopamine all play a major part in this process, supposedly it is to create a bond long enough so that a man and a woman will want to procreate together. that can’t be exact for everyone, im sure some combos of people produce stronger reactions than other
that aside, wev’e evolved in several ways, we don’t all want children or “need” to have someone in our lives, but who can deny a wonderful relationship is the icing on the cake.
I haven’t been in love ” like that” since i was about 25 or so. and alotof that being in love was naivete, and need. i’ll admit it! i saw qualities in others i wanted, the idea of love was intoxicating, being older and being the level headed virgo i am now, things are different. sure he may not make my head spin everytime i see him, or keep me up all nightthinking about him, but yes,sometimes i’d get the butterflies, and the idea that he is there when i need him , the he accepts me for who i am, and is my friend seems 100o times more wonderful than what it would have been 10 years ago.
Samantha says
I have been reading all these posts for about an hour. I was trying to get answers or a get soemone to shake me up so I could move on. Me and my BF were together for 2 years and 3 months. 2 years were great, we were called a “perfect couple”. Then his sex drive started to go down every month and he said that he wasn’t happy with himself, that he was a mess and that he needed space and that he didn’t know weather he was attracted to me anymore and if it will change. I moved out because we both thought that we will miss each other phisically. We kept seeing each other, talking, phoning and everything just got worse. After 2 months in a limbo I spent a week without getting in contact with him at all. Then he wanted to try to start all over again, he said he missed me and that he loved me more than anything. However, the make-up part went wrong as well, we didn’t get close, he didn’t offer to spend the night together and wanted to take things slowly. It only lasted two weeks and I got all insecure and paranoid. Now we are apart again. We still hope to fix it. We decided to be out of each others reach for another two weeks and we picked up a place and time to meet after. If one of us won’t show up, that means the end. If we both will show up maybe we will be able to start from scratch again. I don’t know.
starthrower68 says
Samantha,
I would encourage you not to go to that meeting. If you are left feeling paranoid and insecure, this is not the relationship for you. If you’re looking for someone to jar you into reality, then I think you already have your answer.
Selena says
Why don’t dates show on posts anymore? Some of these threads are years old and people new to this blog may not realize it when they comment.
Bring back dates please.
Cat says
Selena, to quote Evan on this matter: “Sorry, kids. No more time stamp. It made conversations from 2007 seem really dated and I want new readers to embrace old posts as if they were new…”
Cherie says
This makes me sad. For seven months I dated a man and I felt that we really cared for each other. He would say being with me felt natural, he felt comfortable and enjoyed the time we spent together. The relationship seemed to be growing stronger, I just felt content and safe and happy. His kids liked me, his friends liked me … they even said I was the best gf he’d had. He seemed proud of me, he seemed happy. But sometimes he would be distant and the topic of his ex-girlfriend came up .. how he felt so emotionally drained with her … up and down, highs and lows. Then the final few weeks we were together I felt him pulling away from me … and then it came, so unexpectedly. He loves me he said, but he’s not in love. He’s not feeling the “rush” he had with her. We broke up. I decided No Contact was best and so I don’t know if he went back to her.
Ray says
When I was in my teens a girl I was dating did say to me, “I love you Ray but I’m not in love with you”
That statement did hurt, because I just didn’t fully understand it, I asked her what she meant, she replied that her love for me was like love for a dear friend. She enjoyed dating with me but did not have feelings for me that would develop into a romantic relationship.
She also thought that we would remain close friends for many more years than if we became lovers.
35 years later we are still friends!
Keri says
I really hate that sex is so important. My bf of 5 years and I had instant amazing chemistry when we met. This euphoria lasted for 3 years. By the year 4 we had sex once in a blue. Now it is basically non-existent. Marriage is looming in the horizon and, being that he is my first, I have no idea what is going on. I am just not in the mood. I think he is an attractive man but…I don’t know if I’m just not a very sexual person or if he’s not doing it for me. He is older than me, has a great job, and is pretty stable. He has some growing up to do, but he is very financially responsible. I am trying my darndest to establish myself in my field, am pretty ambitious, and have a lot of responsibilities with my family (we dont live together). He craves the physical intimacy, but I just cant provide it. We even discussed an open relationship for his benefit, but he says he only wants me.
I know he’s a rare find, and though I’ve proposed breaking up many a time given the fact that this relationship may be doomed, he won’t have any of it. He says Im the love of his life and that he’s going to stick with me no matter what. I don’t know what to do…If I’m physiologically asexual, I’m throwing something wonderful away. If I’m not…
Denise says
#108
Sounds like this is a turning point Keri in your life.
He says Im the love of his life and that he’s going to stick with me no matter what.
Although that may be flattering, and you enjoy this type of attention (as we all do Keri), each person ALWAYS comes to a relationship voluntarily, stays in it voluntarily and can leave voluntarily. We do not owe anyone anything. (I would also argue he is invading your boundary by making this kind of statement, even if it’s not exactly quoted. And your allowing him to invade your boundary. I am NOT saying either one of you are bad people or of low character!!)
Not every relationship we start will last our whole lives.
I don’t think anyone but you can determine what may have changed in regard to your feelings, maybe you won’t know for some time, after having more life experiences. However, the bottom line is that you don’t have that sexual desire for this man any longer. It’s sad, but true. Him making a good living and being good looking does not equal sexual desire on your part–those are just superficial things. Sexual desire is deeply emotional.
Based on what you wrote, I do NOT think you are physiologically asexual, the evidence proves otherwise–your post said that for 3 years it was euphoria. Maybe it’s just that you’ve changed…that’s what humans do! Try not to be too hard on yourself or intellectually overanalyze this–ultimately it’s what you feel that counts.
Kim says
I married my best friend fifteen years ago because I loved him. We are divorced now because I was not “in love” with him. Then I met someone whom I was “in love” with, but alas, in the end, he just didn’t feel the same way about me, so that one didn’t last either. I think both partners have to feel roughly the same way about each other, at any given stage of the relationship … infatuation, deepening and commitment … for things to last. If you start dating and you both feel good about each other, but aren’t “in love,” and then love grows over time and suddenly one day you wake up and realize you are “in love,” then thats good … that relationship may last. Or you can both start out in high passion and then as things mature and deepen over time grow to love. That may last too. Also, I think it is important to realize that love can be nurtured and developed by both partners, or killed by one. It takes both partners to make a good relationship work, but only one to destroy it. Thats just my take on it anyway.
Margo says
@Vino#15 made the best comment on this situation. That’s it in a nutshell (no pun intended).
Cherry says
I feel like I’m having a similar problem with my current boyfriend. We’re on the very edge of breaking up because he believes that he doesn’t love me anymore. We’ve been dating for two years. I feel as if our relationship has left the “limerence” stage rather than what he feels…. Extremely troubled… I hope all goes well for you..
moon says
I feel the same way… i been going out with my bf (fiance) for 6yrs we are high school sweet hearts… i have never been in a serious relations ship with any one.. he was my (first) and me on his too… now im 23yrs and feel like i love him but no longer in love with him.. its been 6months cense i stared filling like this… i want to LOVE him but i just can’t… i just want to be alone… dont feel like dating anyone… ive never been single… i dont think (14,15 Yrs) count been single… so i really want to be alone… but he LOVES me Alot and he wants to marry me… (We r engaged) but i just dont feel right about this whole thing… i feel Horryble cause i want to make him happy but i want to be happy too… this is not easy… not easy….
Laney says
I’m so in love with a guy who is not in love with me I cry everyday because I’m so upset. I even quit my job when my friend told me the news that he were engaged. I couldn’t face going into work everyday upset and in such a state. I can’t blame him though because you can’t make someone fall in love with you.
I didn’t even have a serious relationship with the guy but all I know is, is that when you do fall in love it’s the real thing!
He is currently not with the girl he had fallen for because she does not love him but to make things worse she is now expecting his child.
He still loves her soo much that he gets upset when out with friends and its written all over his face.
I’m crushed as I have to pretend my feelings are no longer there for him and as he sometimes uses me for sex and once made out he had feelings for me too because I said I would no longer have sex with him because of my feelings are getting in the way. But what I really felt is used.
I never want to fall in love again I just want to enjoy my life as I have wasted so much time.
artemis says
I agree starthrower68
I have recently entered into a casual relationship that provides me with that “high”. I played online for a long time and recently went off to gain that spiritual/high feeling you describe. I know it is wrong and will eventually end but it is addictive and I can’t stop. My marriage has been rocky for a long time and I use that as an excuse to justify “playing” which I know is wrong….thanks for posting it gives me some insight I needed…
Vicki says
Helen at #1 nailed it with the first comment.
Probably, she has met someone else, and is letting Fernando off the hook. She might or might not be dating the other guy, but she’s experiencing a strong attraction for another man who is not Fernando, which is making her question the whole chemistry/foundation of the relationship with Fernando.
They probably have settled into a non-romantic brother-sister type of relationship that lacks passion.
I’d refer the guys reading this to David Shade’s book “Select Women Wisely.” In “Select Men Wisely” (the version of the book for women) he states women need to feel 4 things: appreciation for her uniqueness as an individual/to feel special and that you are supportive of her; to feel a deep emotional connection with you; to feel beautiful/sexy/feminine; and to have hot passionate sex (whether her tastes are extremely vanilla, or extremely the other end of the spectrum – passion needs to be there).
In Fernando’s case, one of those 4 elements is probably missing in his relationship with his girlfriend.
Also, “Laws of the Jungle: Dating for Women Over 40”, by Gloria MacDonald, states women have 4 components they need for chemistry to be present. If one is lacking, the chemistry will be impaired, and the relationship will fail: 1) liking/respect for the man; 2) the possibility the relationship will continue, that the man is a suitable partner for a permanent commitment; 3) the man is willing to commit to a monogamous relationship (he’s not still involved or emotionally connected to an ex or wife or girlfriend); 4) there is at least some mutual physical attraction (or: no turn-offs that undermine the attraction).
Women can limp along in a relationship for a while if it’s missing one or two of these elements, but eventually they have to find somebody else to fulfill the missing pieces.
If they had a nice, but largely asexual, relationship, her need for passionate sex (as David Shade describes it) or mutual physical attraction (as MacDonald calls it) will be unfulfilled. It can’t stay that way. She will have no choice but to move on eventually.
In addition, I’ve dated men I thought were good-looking, guys whom I respected and who were available, but I just couldn’t visualize myself sharing my whole life with them, waking up with them every day, doing our tax returns together every year, etc etc. It just wasn’t “visualizable” (is that a word? probably not… lol).
So, it’s possible she just couldn’t see herself “with” him forever until she died and was being honest in letting him off the hook so both of them could find that partner they could spend the rest of their lives with.
I don’t think anyone is the villain here.
I’d also recommend a book called “Relationship Strategies: The E & P Attraction.” A lot of people who are “physicals” tend to gather in the same places (i.e. the gym, the sports bar, etc), and date other physicals. They all enjoy the same activities. They are all quite outgoing. The problem is that while they will experience initial attraction to each other, it fizzles quickly into brother-sister non-passionate relationship that’s more like good friends than romantic partners. So, while it is tempting to say the passion will always die in every relationship, I think it’s more accurate to say, the attraction of opposites will remain, on a slow burn after the initial flame-up, whereas the attraction of sameness fizzles out faster and becomes just plain non-existent.
It could be Fernando and his girlfriend were too similar, and didn’t complement each other’s personalities enough. Opposites attract. Some similarities are important for making a relationship work (i.e. you both want kids or you don’t; you both want to live in the city or you don’t; etc). The the surface similarities like having an outgoing personality or not, or sharing the same hobbies, etc, are less important, and can be a “decoy” in dating that keeps you locked in a pattern of dating the wrong people.
Peter says
WE all change throughout our lives. Marriage is about adapting the relationship to those changes. it is about coming back from ferocious confrontation or a decade of glacial coldness and rebuilding. I agree with Evan that it is about choice and will. “In Love” is the most stupid way to chose a partner imaginable. Develop after you are married. If you can’t develop it then it is your lack of commitment to to any relationship that requires work on your part that is coming out. Marriage is hard work, not pink mist. The Christian injunction to married people to have a lot of sex is very good advice. Waiting for spontaneous sex is never going to work after 2 or 3 years.
Da Virg says
@ 116…that’s the most foolish thing I’ve heard.
No wonder you get up to your mid 40’s and try to get married only to enjoy a few years of marriage. B E I N G P I CK Y
I thought only Lori Gottlieb lived that kind of life….oops 🙂
Da Virg says
110 – That’s called Karma 🙂
Elizabeth says
I’m in a similar situation at the moment. My boyfriend and I have been together for three and a half years. We laugh a lot and muck around, snuggle and watch our fave shows or movies, both enjoy nice food and travel but in many ways we’re not compatible. The sex has never been great but it’s often been different, exciting and very enjoyable. He seems to have certain hang ups and I thought it was fair enough, I have some hang ups too. So I stayed with him and tried to communicate and to suggest ways we could make our sex life even better. Maybe the chemistry was never that great though I do find him attractive and he regularly gets erections but I guess after the first year the passion had subsided quite a bit. Anyway…he is now saying that he’s not sure if we’re more than very close friends and we’ve broken up, gotten back together, discussed what we want etc. All in the last few weeks. There have always been other problems apart from the sex not being as great as it could be, mainly his financial situation, he’s a musician who works in a cafe and teaches a bit on the side so he never has a good solid stable income and is often borrowing money from me etc. I see this as a problem if we were to stay together and marry. I need someone I can depend on, I have always supported myself and worked and earned ok money but if I want to have kids one day I need to know my partner can pull his weight too. The other major problem is he is five years younger than me. He’s 27. He says he’s not sure that he’d want to start having kids etc in about 5 years, he may not want them for another 10. Well as I’m 31 that will be too late for me…so I guess anyone reading this is thinking why are these two together?? I think because we are best friends and we are very used to being together every day. Being without each other seems so strange and sad. I guess I know we won’t make it and though I’ve cried a lot because of this in the last couple of weeks I’m slowly coming to terms with it. Even when he said he didn’t know if we were more than friends he said he didn’t want to lose me and I feel the same way but not wanting to lose each other isn’t enough for the relationship to last. I love him but I’m not in love with him any more and I think he feels the same way. Maybe neither of us has the guts and we’ll stick it out until we really stop liking each other. I hope whatever happens that one day we can still be friends and look back and laugh at how petrified of being alone we were.
Daphne says
This is a very interesting subject and one that has played a huge part in my personal Life. In my opinion, the difference between loving someone and actually being in love is actually simpler than most would rather admit. When you love someone, it would crush you if anything happened to them. In addition, you can love someone and want to spend your entire life with them, build a family together, accomplish goals together, grow old and even pass on. When it comes to actually being in love, it really comes down to their being fireworks!, a spark in your relationship that is incredibly intoxicating and something you can’t get enough of. IMO, Being in love is a feeling I have had – when the very sight of someone causes me to have butterflies. When I go out on a date, I never want the night to end. I yearn for their touch and when I don’t get it I’m deeply effected. More examples of being in love with a person is as follows : you can’t stand to be without the person, You want to make sure you leave that person satisfied – mentally, physically, compassionately, sexually and even spiritually ( many woman have changed their religious beliefs solely on their love – or being madly in love with their mate )… other examples of being in love are: if a person you merely love buys you a 5 karat diamond ring – you feel terrific but it’s more about the actual gift rather than who actually gave it to you.. In my own experience, when in love, a person can stop at the store to pick up something as small as a card or a piece of chocolate and I’d be blown away – because I am so in love with them. Being in love requires passion, compassion, a mutual respect for one another, lust, sex, a desire to always have that person in your presence and a certain feeling you get moments before going on a ride at an amusement park…. Being in love is Fantastic but often fades with time. Loving a person is beautiful and states that you have deep feelings for that person that do not involve the thrills and non-stop excitement that comes with being madly in love with someone. In my life, I have had boyfriends I was in love with – to only find out that the stage inevitably ends and you’re left asking yourself, do I even know this person,,, and I have also have had experiences where I love someone ( my own husband as we speak ), I Love him with all my heart, I respect him and look forward to living our lives together – however, I’m not IN LOVE with him – I once was;however, to be IN LOVE your entire relationship is somewhat unrealistic IMO
christine says
I am in that situation at the moment, i am 58 and my male friend is 56, we do not live together. After 11 years of going out he went to cambodia, Yes he got mesmarized by the femails over there. He came back and said that i was like a sister to him. We did not have sex for the last 4 years, but as he is a drinker i put that down to that. Yes we had sparks for a year or two then it just got comfertable. NOw he said that we are friends. I am hurt but deep down i knew it was over years ago but i was just kiding myself to think it would work out. I am trying to be strong but he is now phoning me every day whanting for me not to be mad with him.I am not answering the phone or tex. YES IT HURTS. being in love or just love as a friend is difrent
gay dating says
Love love and love is a universal for all human being. Its not only human but also for all animals. I want to say with you “But it can also be an illusion“. Thanks for your post.
BostonRobin says
All this speculation, and to what end? If this girl has made her decision, YOU DON’T WANT HER (credit to Evan for pounding that wisdom into my head). If she wants to leave you now, when everything is awesome, when you’re at your best, imagine life with her if things went bad? She’s not wife material if she will bail on you now. I’m sorry, but she’s doing you a favor.
We all have to go into relationships hoping that the other person has the same ideas about love and commitment, but really only time will tell. This letter sounds a bit unclear about her ideas though, like maybe she wants to live together a bit longer just to be sure? You might still be able to work this out, but this kind of talk just sounds suspicious to me. Maybe she just doesn’t have good internal filters and is sharing feelings she should just process quietly.
Darwin says
Fernando should cut his losses. Do not invest anymore time, money, effort, or emotion. Break things off. If she wants to come back, think carefully and make her wait.
Virginia says
Love is a word that few have very little understanding of. I was married 31 years to my husband before he passed on. I can tell you this, true love comes with time. Going through trials, tribulations, committments, devotion, honoring, charishing and giving your all to a marriage. Being in love is a fantasy, a myth. it is a sparkle you want instantly, and you will only get that sparkle after years of true committment. Choose your choice (spouse) and love your choice. There in is true happiness, being devoted to one another totally and completely and none else, though hell and high water, through the good times and the bad. Learning to become one flesh. When you truly love, your spouse is your LIFE. When you lose your love like I did, it would be like cutting both your arms off. Love is a something you can not replace. Like arms. Your spouse iin true love becomes a part of you and when they die it is losing a part of you. True love takes a long time to grow and it takes committment, devotion and the will to make it so.
Paul says
Fernando,
I totally empathize with your situation. After 8 years together, lots of fun together and an over the top engagement, my girl just laid down the same “I love you, but I’m not in love with you” cliche. I answered back that I’m not “in love” with her either, but love her very profoundly. When I asked when she started to feel that way, she pinpointed after 1 and a half years into our relationship. I was dumbfounded by finding that out. And she told me 6 and a half years later??? Just last year she said yes to my marriage proposal, accepting the ring I was offering her, she proudly showed it off to all her friends, etc… We were a couple that never argued, very compatible, highly looked upon by others who thought we had such a rare thing going for us. I realized none of us are immune from this type of situation. I was never controlling, let her be who she was, dedicated my life to her as my #1 priority, and gave her all the love that a man could possible give a partner. I’ve been staunchly loyal, took on most of the daily home responsibilities (so she would never feel overwhelmed), and always took care of her during long difficult times (surgeries, etc). I do not regret anything I’ve ever done. But this still happened to me.
I’m still quite a bit hurt by this situation… My heart is still freshly open wounded. But I acted as I always did. I let her do what she wanted to do. I would never force her to be with me and drive me insane on an emotional roller coaster ride. As much as I still love her deeply, she free to pursue her “rockstar” and go chase her illusive life-long passion… Whatever that may be or mean.
I personally think she confused “lust” with “true love.” It’s unfortunate that she is willing to throw away an amazing 8-year long partnership… Best I’ve ever had.
Hold your head up high, my friend. Some things we cannot control (what ticks in some people’s heads). You seem like a great catch with a good heart… Ladies out there will be lucky to have a great guy like you newly available for them. From the bottom of my heart, I wish you the very best of luck, Fernando!
rosie says
I left my marriage of 23 years because I wanted a better life. I felt our love had slipped away early on and that I deserved more. And there were problems…..a lot of them….but on the outside we appeared to be living the idyllic life. If I could go back in time, I’d have a sit down with myself and look deeply and honestly inside and ask: What do you want? Because whatever it is you can find all of it while remaining in your marriage. The intoxication of passion and mind-altering chemistry is no match for deep love and intimacy and belonging.
karisma says
i think what your girlfriend actually meant was that she still cares for you, and somehow you have already become a part of her that she could not just leave you like that..but she is no longer excited about you, the passion has died down…she maybe exploring her options right now, looking for the excitement she once felt with you..the excitement of a new relationship…she could not give you up completely because she might be needing a fallback when things with other men dint work out after all..or maybe she is still weighing what’s really impotant to her, the safety and security with you or the excitement she’d feel with someone new.
Ana says
Well im engaged but not in love nor do I love him. Not even sure if I can stand sex with him. My heart is elsewhere and elsewhere’s heart is with me and his marriage is also the same. Life can suck. But it beats being alone and this someone wants to marry and take care of me when the other one cannot, you sometimes have to take it.
Mark says
Some very illuminating personal insights here. For what it’s worth, I will share my own experience. The strong ‘electric’ attraction of initially being ‘in love’ with someone can last longer than many people have indicated here. For myself, 8 years in one case, 5 years in another case and 4 years for another one (but I am very picky as to my partner at the start, sometimes travelling 1000s of miles to find ‘the one’). After that, various outcomes can occur, albeit invariably, a common theme is a complete loss of interest in continuing sexual relations with the person (after that period of being ‘in love’ ends). The subsequent feelings range from ‘complete indifference to the fate of the other person’ to (at the other end of the scale), great love and care for the other person, even to the point of being really happy when she laughs at something (and to the point where I feel very confident that, in some sense, we will be soul mates for ever). That said, once the ‘in love’ period expires, the search for the highs of being ‘in love’ begins again in earnest. So, in a nutshell, there are very different types of love here – and feeling very ‘closely attached’ to someone does not stop you also being ‘in love’ with someone else. In my humble opinion. Mark
Lex says
I can respond to the “love” vs. “in love” phenomenom. She is more than likely what is known as either aromantic, demi-romantic or grey-romantic. What does all that mean?
Aromantic; Having no romantic attraction to another person, means you will never, “fall in love” or “be in love” with someone else. The romantic spectrum, yes, there’s an actual spectrum and an orientation that goes along with this spectrum.
Demiromantic: Only develops romantic feelings and attractive toward someone as to they have a strong platonic relationship with. However, it doesn’t mean that every strong platonic relationship will this develop, it just means it can develop when such a condition exists.
Greyromantic: This is a blanket term that describe many other parts to the romantic spectrum outside and away from aromantic but not alloromantic (normal romantic people, where your romantic orientation lines up with your sexual orientation, yes, both orientations are separate).
The reason why I can talk about this is because I’m aromantic and have seen people confuse, “in love / romance / limerance” with actual love. Being in love, romance, isn’t actually love, as much as people want to call it that.
A good example to ask yourself.
1. What is dating for?
To find the right one to settle down with and possibly start a family.
2. What is romance for?
It just happens with people whom are grey-romantic or allo-romantic but never happens for aromantics. It’s for initimate bonding for a short period of time, it never lasts. Perhaps it has something to do with the survival of the species but I can’t be certain at this time.
3. What is love?
Basically, it’s deep understanding, acceptance of self and others. Through gestures of fondness; hugs, cuddles / snuggles, etc.
Is being aromantic normal? Sure! Everyone on this planet is different from each other, some people will identify different than a large group, “Allo-romantic and allo-sexuals” (what you guys n’ gals call normal, even though there is no such thing).
I look at this stuff from a clinical sense; internal medicine, psychology, sociological and psychiatry. There is no expert on whether a said relationship is right or wrong, if never being in love is wrong either. Because it’s not wrong, it’s just different, however, being different scares the Hell out of people.
Just so you know, I identify as an aromantic hetero-demisexual man with wide heteroaesthetic attraction.
What in the Hell is that?
1. I don’t fall in love and never will but I do have empathy, therefore I’m not a Cluster B personality type with associated disorder. Which means I’m not suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) or Anti-Social Personality Disorder (ASPD); sub diagnosis are sociopath and psychopath. I’m not in the autistic spectrum, therefore I’m not suffering from Asperger’s Syndrome either. Believe me, I’ve been labeled all kind of bullshit over the years by armchair medical doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists, none of them actually have any schooling to back their assertations up, however, I do. Another quote from people is if you’re not romantic, you’re a slut. Humorous enough; the people who say that are themselves, slutty. Aromantic doesn’t mean slutty / promiscuous, this is just social programming, the guilting mechanism kicking in because people fear what they don’t understand.
2. Heterodemisexual; I don’t have sexual attractions to women unless I have a deep and profound platonic (friendship) relationship with them. More specifically, I don’t get it every time with a really good lady friend, it’s only happened 3 times in my life and I’m 42 years old. Yes, I’m single and proud of that fact. Sexuality comes in two forms; mental / emotional and physical. While I may have sexual attraction, if it develops from a lady friend, it doesn’t mean I want to physically act or want to actually have sex. Many people haven’t fully articulated their sexuality as of yet to really understand what they are.
3. Wide heteroasthetic attraction; This is another orientation outside of sexual and romantic. It means; I’m attracted to many different physical features and body types. People confuse this with sexuality but they are different. It’s essentially, the measure on what I consider beautiful and pleasing to my eye. As I don’t follow the social programming of humanity.
Here’s something to read, it applies to people that are aromantic and/or asexual, too. Not all asexuals are aromantics, just as not all aromantics are asexual. However, it is possible to be aromantic and asexual at the same time.
https://www.wattpad.com/71760739-what-not-to-say-to-asexual-aromantic-people-for
If a lady asks me if I want to grab some coffee, lunch, dinner, to me, that’s just that, a friendly gesture. It’s not a romantic date, perhaps it is to her but I wouldn’t know one way or the other, unless she actually said so. If it was based on the latter, I would kindly decline her invitation, because of my previous experiences of this kind of situation always ended badly for me.
Wahtevah Beech says
The primary, or root cause here is this:
Women do not mean what they say. She is trickle truthing him because she is cheating.
If you idiots could understand: If you start a relationship with good intentions, you NEED to end it the same way. Golden rule applies. Start practicing it, or I foresee a good deal of domestic violence by men in the future.
You love to toss around the word abuse. Well, lying and cheating is abuse. Not meaning what you say is manipulative. It’s gaslighting. But it’s ok for women to do it, right?
pirate anny says
I just got told by someone they love me but are not IN love with me. im getting too old for this crap. I told him good luck find miss perfect. im DONE.