69% of Men Get Rejected Before a First Date

If you look at the top of the page under my name, you’ll see two short sentences:

Understand Men. Find Love.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that if men understood women, they’d do better with women. Nor is it surprising that women who understand men do better with men.

That’s the entire essence of this blog; rather than complaining about why men should change (which they should!), it’s more powerful to understand the people you’re trying to date.

If you’re going to understand the male dating experience, a great place to look is online, where, generally, as in real-life, men are the pursuers and women are the pursued.

According to this juicy infographic, 69% of men got rejected before the first date.

Here’s a quick breakdown of how these men were rejected when asking a woman out:
• 24% got friend-zoned
• 29% were rejected and the woman did not suggest an alternative day
• 47% didn’t get a reply (she didn’t text back)

Which means the most likely way a woman will reject a man is to ignore him.

Rather than complaining about why men should change (which they should!), it’s more powerful to understand the people you’re trying to date.

Furthermore, out of the 2,454 men surveyed, only 13% made it to a second date

As a man who dated online prolifically, I got rejected over 50% of the time before meeting. Conversely, most of my clients are ready to quit online dating if two or three cute guys don’t write back. So yes, men should know what it’s like to get horrifying dick pics or threats from angry rejectees, and women should know what it’s like to get more widespread rejection in a month than most women get in a lifetime.

Instead of comments that tell me how 85% of men are awful, creepy, stupid, perverted, old, short, and poor (when the number is actually 80%), I would love to hear you offer a sentence of sympathy for what the average man must go through to get a second date.

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

Join our conversation (705 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.


  1. 31

    1. Ask questions about the woman

    2. Make a nice comment about how she looks

    3. Don’t Gawk at other women around you

    4. Don’t talk about your exes and how your “ex was crazy”

    5. Don’t get wasted

    6. If you feel chemistry, make some sort of gesture like touch her hand or something.

    95% of my first dates never result in a second date because the man talks about nothing but himself and asks no questions about me when I am always prepared and interested and ask questions about him. fML

    1. 31.1
      Yet Another Guy


      I believe that Evan has mentioned this behavior many times, but guys who fail to ask questions are trying to impress you.   They are attempting to demonstrate that they are high-quality mates.  I believe that this behavior is grounded in reptilian instinct because it occurs across species. Look at how a male peacock displays his plumage during mate selection.  Granted, this behavior does not come across as is intended, but the guys you date who want to be with you the most are going to try their best to impress  you.  Nine times out of ten, the woman determines if there will be another date if a pair is well-matched SMV-wise.  If the guy knows that he has a higher SMV, he will not display this behavior because he is busy running game on you.  His only goal is to get you into bed.

      Men do not come out the womb knowing how to lead a date.  You can be assured that a man who asks a lot of questions on a date is a) a very experienced dater, and b) probably a player.  Very few men are naturals when it comes to dating.  Being able to lead a date is an acquired skill that often requires having the internal fortitude to crash and burn quite a bit before things click.   Only men who are shooting for player status have the tenacity to endure this level of pain.  Most guys are not willing to deal with the amount of pain/rejection that occurs to get to this level of proficiency in dating, so they are horrible at approaching and dating.  My advice is to beware of men who know how to ask all of the right questions and smoothly lead a date because these skills were earned by running up the numbers in the courting/mating game.

      1. 31.1.1
        Emily, the original

        I believe that Evan has mentioned this behavior many times, but guys who fail to ask questions are trying to impress you.  

        Or he’s a narcissist. They are a lot of people, both men and women, who never actively listen and engage in a conversation because they are conducting a monologue, not a dialogue.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          However, I do not believe that most guys who fail to ask questions are narcissists.  A lot of guys do not want to feel like they are interviewing/being interview by their date.  I personally get that nonsense out of the way before I decide to meet a woman. That way, we can concentrate on having fun.  I have still had women attempt to fall back on the question and answer format after we had exchanged the a great deal of information before deciding to meet.  I politely end the date because she clearly was not listening when we were having our telephone conversations.

        2. Emily, the original

          But on dates where you do not know someone that well, you need to ask basic questions about each other. It’s not interviewing someone. It’s just making conversation. I went out with a man a friend had introduced me to. He knew very little about me. He did not ask me ONE question. And he referred to himself in the third person. It was very bizarre.

        3. KK


          “I have still had women attempt to fall back on the question and answer format after we had exchanged the a great deal of information before deciding to meet”.

          Yeah, because you’ve only told her what you want her to know, whereas you’ve thoroughly data mined the shit out of her and know way more about her than she’s chosen to share with you. Duh. LOL

        4. Marika

          Agreed Emily.

          Most people I interact with in all contexts are terrible at asking questions. I typically come away from most social interactions knowing more about the other person than they do about me. Because I am a question-asker (I already know all about me, I’m interested in learning about others).

          I believe most people on dates have reasonable intentions. There may be circles where you need to worry about a guy’s ‘game’ or ‘player status’, but those aren’t circles I want to move in. Most people on dates don’t go in thinking about smv and how to play you.

          Questions are good. What impresses me most about my current beau is that he listens when I talk, remembers what I say and asks about it later! Sounds normal, but it so rarely happens that the first time he asked a follow up question from something that I had talked about at the previous date I nearly fell off the chair. That’s impressive. Not thinking you’re too cool and talking about yourself ad nauseum.

        5. Emily, the original


          Most people I interact with in all contexts are terrible at asking questions. I typically come away from most social interactions knowing more about the other person than they do about me.

          Me, too.

          I believe most people on dates have reasonable intentions. Most people on dates don’t go in thinking about smv and how to play you.


          What impresses me most about my current beau is that he listens when I talk, remembers what I say and asks about it later! Sounds normal, but it so rarely happens that the first time he asked a follow up question from something that I had talked about at the previous date I nearly fell off the chair.

          Does he have a single brother? 🙂   What you described is what I look for in friends and in men. I’m a pretty good listener and have a good memory, so, like your boyfriend, I will ask follow-up questions. People rarely give that back, unfortunately. I was talking to a friend at work and for one of the first times in our conversations, I was talking about me. After I was done, he didn’t say a word about what I’d said and started talking about himself! I stopped him and said, “Now, wait. This is the part where you say a sentence or two to make me think you heard a word I just said.” He stared at me blankly. I enjoy talking to him because he has a good sense of humor, but his listening skills stink.

        6. Persephone

          Dear Emily, quite the opposite. Men with narcissist personality disorder are amazing at  knowing how to charm someone. They know how to make a woman feel so special. They know how to ask her questions, and make her feel like he’s being so attentive toward her. What he’s really doing, is picking her up as high as he can, so he can prepare her eventually for a great big fall.

          YAG got it right. Beware the man who tries to give you all this fake attention. The man who acts like he is so interested in you. He’s looking for every little Nuance, reading your reaction to it, well hiding who he is. He wants to know who you are so that he can find the best way to take advantage of you.

        7. Emily, the original


          Men with narcissist personality disorder are amazing at  knowing how to charm someone.

          I’m not talking about charming someone. I am referring to basic conversational skills and the ability to express interest in another person and listen to what that person says.

      2. 31.1.2
        Karl S

        Statements vs Questions on a date.
        “Creating threads of conversation through statement is far more powerful than questions. This is because it assumes rapport. Friends speak to each other in statements, not questions. Questions are a polite way of requesting information of someone. They create the frame that you desire something from her and she is obligated to fulfill your request. But statements make it so that you’re constantly giving away information and value to the other person.” – Mark Manson.

        Now a guy can very easily misunderstand that making statements means talking about himself, but what it should mean is that he uses statements that invite a response and a sharing from the other person while simultaneously showing who he is to his date (Eg – opinions and observations about love, life, culture, family, work, dating). By revealing who you are, you make yourself vulnerable to being criticized. But vulnerability is a powerful way to connect with someone when it works. Questions don’t make you vulnerable in the same way.

        1. Marika

          It’s an interesting point and definitely worth considering. Thanks Karl.

          I like Mark Mason a lot. He’s wrong about one thing though, women ask their female friends lots of questions. It’s how we show caring and interest. In a female friend conversation, most of my statements would arise from questions they’d ask me about work, family, dating etc.

          There are certainly ways to ask questions where it feels like a conversation & not an interview. Follow up questions from what the other person says, for instance.

          I understand that men don’t like to be given the 3rd degree. But equally women don’t want to just sit and listen to you talk about yourself and we’d really appreciate y’all asking us a few questions!


        2. Emily, the original


          I like Mark Mason a lot. He’s wrong about one thing though, women ask their female friends lots of questions. It’s how we show caring and interest. In a female friend conversation, most of my statements would arise from questions they’d ask me about work, family, dating etc.

          I like Mark Manson, too, but I agree with you about female friends. If, in the last conversation we had, a female friend said she was concerned about her sister and explained why, the next next time I saw her, I’d ask about her sister. Asking questions may not show vulnerability in the way making statements does, but it demonstrates interest in the other person and the ability to listen. In the example I gave, asking questions shows that I care about my friend.

        3. Yet Another Guy


          I use a statement-based approach to communicating.  I hate being asked questions and I hate asking questions.  I consider that format to be an intrusive way to communicate.  I can communicate with a woman who I do not know for more than hour on the telephone without resorting to the question and answer format and not talking about myself non-stop.  I had a telephone conversation with a new woman today that lasted over an hour and half.   The women with whom I had the telephone call later sent a text stating how much she enjoyed our conversation.  The few men are willing to be so open on the telephone.

          Marika, contrary to your opinion of me, I have a fairly high EQ.  I am just not here to do the “White Night” thing.  I read people very well.  I grew up with a bunch of sisters.  I know how to put a woman in whom I am interested at ease.  What do I do?  I share information about myself that women are surprised a man would voluntarily share with a woman in whom he is interested.  It is easily for a man to talk about his strengths, which I do; however, more is gained by a man exposing his weaknesses, which I also do.  Allowing a woman to see the whole man, upfront, unmasked, saves her from having to pry information out one layer at a time.  It is a risky move that can result in sharing too much information, but so be it.  I am a very open and honest man.  That is the way my parents raised me.  If a woman believes that I am sharing too much information, she is not the right woman for me.  What I have learned is that if man is voluntarily willing to share information that makes him vulnerable, a woman will return in kind, and a bond is made.  This way of communicating builds intimacy and trust in addition to rapport.  I have women that I dated who continue to call me because they appreciate the intimacy in our conversations.   As harsh as my filtering process may appear, those who pass it get treated well because I am looking for a woman who I can trust and respect.

      3. 31.1.3
        Sum Guy

        I think asking or not asking questions is more related to your sense of security and personality type.   Also think it is the wrong way to go about a first date.

        A few questions always come up as easy ice breakers, otherwise I don’t “ask questions” I attempt to engage in conversation.   A discussion that can elucidate our ideas, humor and interests.   Connection in short

        I hold in abeyance many personal questions for later, once there is some comfort level.

      4. 31.1.4

        This is spot on I wish women were more aware of this, they wonder why they’re stuck dating the same kind of players because it is precisely those who have endured the practice of learning how to perfectly lead a date!

        1. Yet Another Guy

          It is a damned if you do, and damned if you don’t situation.  The problem is knowing when to turn it off.

  2. 32

    Elle (comment 30) and Clare (comment 30.1), I’m an empath, too ~~ and my trouble is empathizing too much with the experience of the other.  Just last night, a sweet-looking guy I’d never met before put his arm around my shoulders as an introduction (I like hugs, so that much felt okay).  He seemed like an overly affectionate puppy, but he moved in very fast and was kissing my face before I knew what to do about it.  The bartender and bar manager (a friend of mine) swooped in to pull him off, and I’m so glad they did.  I eventually would have pushed him away, but I was too slow in response, all the while trying to understand the guy’s state of mind and his real intentions (thinking that maybe he didn’t know how socially awkward his behavior seemed).

    I’m on a learning curve, tho, improving at discerning sooner and including my own feelings in my balance of empathy.

    My point is one can have too much empathy and getting to a workable balance is the best place.

  3. 33

    Hi Marika,

    Glad to hear you found someone and that it’s going well. I hope it continues to blossom.

    1. 33.1

      Thanks Shaukat.

      We’ll see. There are some red flags. The main issue is the disconnect between the wonderful way he treats me and the other people we interact with together (wait staff, mutual friends etc), and the lack of empathy he shows at times when talking about other people. It’s confusing. And due to my bad boy leanings, I need to be mindful.

      But, question askers don’t come along everyday, so I’m giving him a chance!

      From a man’s perspective, why would a man regale me with stories of times he’s been nasty / unthoughtful? That makes no sense to me.

      1. 33.1.1

        Watch out Marika. This sounds a lot like a man with NPD!!!!!!!!!

        1. Persephone

          Answer to Mara 33.1.1 absolutely. One of the things about narcissists, is that love to push boundaries. Once they charm You by asking you all sorts of questions, and making you feel very special, then they start destroying any boundaries that you have someone coming up and putting his arm around you he’s trying to remove those boundaries. He’s testing you to see if he can get away with it.

      2. 33.1.2

        Marika, I second Mara and urge you to proceed with caution (but it sounds like you know that).  He sounds exactly like someone I dated before.  In hindsight, the “nice” behavior was all an act to lure me in and the “nasty” self he told me about in stories was his real self.

        Looking back on it, I think he told me those stories as a control mechanism–giving a subtle warning that yes, he’s being nice now, but is capable of nasty behavior.  So if I didn’t do exactly what he wanted, he’d eventually direct the nasty behavior to me (and boy did he, later on).

        By contrast, I never experienced this confusion with my husband, whose actions and words always matched up with one another.  Truth be told, I don’t know anyone whose happy marriage started off like this.

        Obviously I don’t know this person.  I really hope this person isn’t like the one I encountered.  But I still thought I’d share my own experience in case it might help you sort things out.

      3. 33.1.3


        You got good advice here and I’d like to add that TRUE personality is clear by the way a person treats others – basically, when he has nothing to gain from the relationship, that’s when you see who the person really is. When a man is trying to date you, he has something to gain (for most men, it’s sex).  So if he is treating you well but treating everyone else (sorta, kinda) like crap, I would believe that his real person is the one who treats others like crap. That means that when the newness wears off with you, he will probably revert back to ‘him’. I wish you luck all the same.

      4. 33.1.4


        From personal experience I can tell you, a person who is mean to others will be mean to you too when it no longer behooves them to be on their best behavior.

        1. Marika

          Thank you Stacy, Christine, Mara & GWTF. I value and recognize your opinions and the truth of them. The thing is, though, he’s only ever been kind & thoughtful to me and those I’ve seen him interact with. It’s stories I’ve heard (from him) which I’ve never witnessed that concern me. And the fact he would share about those as it paints him in a not great light. Makes no sense to me.

          But I don’t feel I can reject a man for what he might do / has done..so I need to wait it out for now and see what happens. Dating is a process of discovery!

          I just wondered if any of the guys could weigh in on why they would share negative things about themselves on dates? It happens a lot that guys will unnecessarily reveal negative things quite early to me (my friends have experienced this too), and I’m not sure of the motivation for that.

        2. FG

          Several aspects…
          Trying to show / demonstrate guy has evolved from past mistakes / unpalable (but abandoned) behavior
          Reaction observation / tolerance test
          “The worst of me would be…”
          It is possible that some of these behaviors or sayings might be universally condemned, but also possible that they are subjectively bad only in your eyes.

          Will not repeat what had been said by a woman one evening, but when I brought her coffee the next morning, I told her that had  Ibeen my 25 or 30 self,  I would have thrown her out w/o further ado. People say strange crap w/o thinking of the ramifications.

        3. Jeremy

          Marika, in terms of why a guy would mention past misdeeds…In the book “Attached” the authors describe strategies of avoidant men.  Their goal is to create distance while pursuing – to create an aura of high value so that women (particularly anxious women) will find them attractive, while creating psychological “back doors” from which to exit, should intimacy ensue.  One such tactic is to mention past misdeeds – that way, when they shut down emotionally, they can say, “well, I told you so.”


          Of course, this may not be the case here.  This guy might just be trying to tell amusing stories, or to show he has changed (as FG suggested).  I just might keep an eye open for signs of avoidant attachment.

        4. GoWiththeFlow


          Thanks for the clarification.  I had read your original post as he is rude or mean to others when he is with you.

          I think in a good relationship or friendship you should be able to share your stories about when you did something mean or foolish.  None of us are perfect angels!  But it sounds like this is a form of oversharing too soon in the relationship.  I have a very good woman friend I’ve known for ~15 years.  She just recently told me about something she did long ago that she’s ashamed of.  Honestly, if she had told me this when we first met, it would have been a lot more impactful on how I think of her.  But now, it’s just one of those things, since I know all of her, including the very good that balances out the few instances of bad.

      5. 33.1.5


        It depends on the content of his stories, but it’s possible he’s employing a certain version of ‘game’ which teaches guys to cultivate a not-so-nice image in order to build attraction. Way back when I bought into that pua nonsense I used to do the same. Just a possibility.



  4. 34

    In another post (19,2 or subsequent), I started delving on that 69% failure to get to 1st date. Revisiting that stat, is it 31% conversion rate for attempts made at contact BY guys, or for actual guys? Those numbers are intertwined but quite different in significance.
    Using a normal distribution, whether we wish to apply it to IQ or wealth, such as in…
    …what do we find? Standard deviations from the mean or median (in the case of equal probability, they correspond)will play an enormous role.

    Under – 0.5 Std.Dev., we are unlikely to find any people on dating sites (that would be roughly  under 90 IQ). Typing, owning a computer, or having access to one is decidedly more challenging in that range.
    From -0.5 to + 0.5, the guys are likely dismissed as having little savvy, potential, or interest. The flip side, dismissing women in that range, may also be true, but MAY often rest more on questions of superficial appeal, looks, perceived beauty, than on intelligence.
    And 0.5 Std.Dev. and above? Lo and behold! That is pretty close to that 31% success rate, isn’t it? There will be a strong correlation between income and IQ. Not perfect, due to danger money on some blue-collar jobs, and also from “old money”.

    Is there anything inherently wrong with a Wal-Mart cashier? No! She makes a living, pays her bills, and may even be working towards something more rewarding / satisfying. Would I date her? No. Our lifestyles, expectations, histories, interests, education (etc., etc.) are too different. She might be a knock-out and a pleasure to behold, but that does not a relationship make! A whole LOT of guys might be tickled pink to date her, though, so I hold little worry for her love life if she can apply even but a dash of wisdom.

  5. 35

    @Fleurdl123  (19.2 or so)
    Gleeful hostility? Frankly, I’m one or the other, but not gleeful AND hostile simultaneously. Hostile would suppose antagonistic towards women. My train of thought is really more one of cautionary tales. And if I didn’t LIKE women, instead of taking a moment better wasted elsewhere, I might remain silent in a “screw you, jump off a bridge” attitude. Or had that not crossed your mind?

    My comments about the effects of menopause do not seek to demean women. I’m saying “Wake up and smell the coffee!” before you get stuck trying to meet your “man” at the bingo game under assisted-living / permanent care. The diluted message, were I subtle, would fail to jolt.
    I try to show how quickly (and sometimes devastatingly, in terms of outward appearance) menopause strikes. Now you may be aware, but women dawdle unconvincingly. Let’s just say it is better to grow old WITH someone than it is to meet after the depredations of time. Saw a bit from Corden with Nicole Kidman and Kit Harrinton. Kidman (50) is getting noticeably older. Sooner or later, we all do! But imagine! This is a gal who has an unlimited budget to battle the onset of aging. Creams, doctors, trainers, you name it! Just saw Blind with Baldwin and Demi Moore (54). The years are piling on! Both women are still notable, attractive, elegant, but their prime is long gone.

    There is a significant difference between dating or entering / being in a relationship, and talking about these same topics. Would I, on a first date, tell a gal, 50, that she is on the verge of menopause? Not a winner or closer move! 🙂 Does that preclude my tackling same in a forum specifically dedicated to dating and relationships?

    Recounting anecdotes of “disasters” fulfills the same role. We grasp that if you recognize your own behavior patterns in one of those stories, you might feel judged. Freud wrote “Presenting the patient with truth and facts is a threat to their identity eliciting anger and resentment“. That statement lies at the very core of talk therapy. You talk. Until you get sick of paying, perhaps. And then have an epiphany about things you likely knew before the first session. The reaction phenomenon to truth and fact is known as backfire, but I prefer the term blowback. And it is prevalent in society due to often unsubstantiated “beliefs”, possibly the result of education programming or indoctrination, clashing with hard facts. In The Curse of High IQ (sold on Amazon), the author denotes the difficulty of an average IQ person (100) having a conversation with a moron (IQ 70; the term has fallen in disfavor from political correctness, but it was a descriptor before it ever was an insult). Transpose that to a 130 IQ person talking to the average Joe (100). You get a similar disconnect.

    “Unheard / unseen by women” hardly qualifies my life 🙂 What ripple I produce MAY actually catalyze positive action for a handful of people. In OLD, some women in the 45-59 range may have had a lonnnnggggg relationship, and find themselves dating again. Or trying. Some are hesitant to even talk on the phone (can we be ironic? A woman afraid to talk on the phone? 0_o ). Being pragmatic, I reply “Here’s my number. Use *67 before you dial”. A few adamantly refuse. At which point I can only say “Good luck with that!” Many regular posters are much more savvy, or experienced.

    The number of prospects, in terms of population percentage, depends on a number of factors. Using very basic criteria, location, age, disqualifiers that most would agree with (want to date an alcoholic?), availability (I see little point in having an affair w a married woman), lifestyle compatibility and some psychological factors such as secure versus insecure attachment styles, the numbers are solid in the 25-35 range and then drop. The dating pool population later on is best described as an ever dwindling number as we age.
    Availability is quirky. It is much greater from middle-class downwards than upper-middle class upwards. And divorce rates in relation to wealth and education also play a role in that.

    Some behaviors I’ve described disqualify many women. As a man who might say “Out of 168 hours in the week, I spend 60 at/to/from work, 56 sleeping, 20 on chores and 30 on fly-fishing and TV. I really want a relationship!!!” would be disqualified save by a microscopically small number of female fly-fishing .fanatics. Is that not easy to see?

    1. 35.1

      Save it for your stand up, Woody.  Overstating your points to jolt us women into action? Seriously? Gleeful hostility is routinely justified with “I’m just being honest.”

      You are in love with your own pontificating, and if you have a couple of thoughtful suggestions, they are lost amidst the rambling.

  6. 36
    Yet Another Guy

    Many of the comments to this blog entry reinforce my recently developed belief that men should be required to pursue, plan, and pay is an anachronism that has no place in a society where women are liberated.  Comparing perceived passive rejection to active rejection is a folly.   If we reverse the gender, men are passively rejected 99.999999999999999999999% of the time.

    To our female commenters, when was the last time you initiated a first date?  I bet that the answer to that question for many of you is either “never” or a Sadie Hawkins dance in high school.  Women want to be liberated and reap all of the rewards of the producer world, but they do not want to accept the risks that traditional producers (men) have had to accept since the beginning of mankind.  Having to deal with active rejection is one of those risks.  So, ladies, put on your big girl panties and ask a man in whom you are interested out.  Unless you are engaging in hypergamy, I bet that he will find himself momentarily stunned and unable to speak.  The odds that he will say “yes” after he regains his composure and realize that you are serious are very high, laying to rest the myth of passive rejection.

    The cold hard truth is that men target only the most attractive women on dating sites because they have to deal with rejection.  A man would rather get rejected by a woman with a higher SMV than one with an equal or lower SMV.  It stings a lot less because he knows that he is reaching.

    1. 36.1

      Did you take dating tips from Stacy2?

      You’re currently the male Stacy2. You make the occasional good point, but it’s so drowned in overwhelming hypocrisy, bitterness and one -sided accusations against the opposite sex that you’re constantly shooting yourself in the foot. Anyone who knows your dating attitudes would be well advised to discount your advice.

      In answer to your question, I used to initiate catching up with men online. I stopped doing it after reading this blog where Evan explained the benefits of letting a man pursue (for both parties). And I’ll take a happily married dating coach with women’s best interests at heart’s advice over yours any day, thanks.

      If you want to have any credibility, try a bit of humility and self-reflection from time to time. You’re an intelligent guy, YAG, but you show very little EQ. Maybe try the book How To Win Friends and Influence People.

      1. 36.1.1


      2. 36.1.2
        Yet Another Guy

        I am not here to make friends, nor am I hear to make enemies.  I am here to share what it is like to be a man in the game of love.

        Passive rejection is a somewhat ridiculous notion.   Just because a woman desires to be asked out by a man who does not do so does mean that he is passively rejecting her.  Rejection requires one to passed on by another who actively considered the prospect of a date.  There have been times I learned years later that a woman who was not even on my radar was interested in me.  That is not passive rejection.  Quite frankly, I did not know that this woman existed because she was not in my field of view.  In her mind, I passively rejected her, which was far from the truth.

        What I am attempting to say here is that if women are not happy with the men who approaching them, then either they have an unrealistic view of their SMV, or maybe, just maybe, it may be beneficial to make the first move.  Not all guys are going to treat a woman who pursues poorly or take her for granted.  You mentioned that all people are different.  Well, all men are different; therefore, no single approach is going to work for all men just as you claim that no approach is going to work for all women.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          *here to make enemies.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          *does not do so does not mean

        3. Marika

          That is fair, YAG. And yes, it’s worthwhile to try various approaches if things aren’t working. I understand that. I’m willing to try things, but the fact is, most men don’t respond well to being pursued by women. They don’t value a woman as much who makes all the first moves. Including yourself. When a woman approached you online, you were skeptical and suspicious of her, Google stalked her and then refused to go out with her.

          You give advice that may work in theory, but we women have learned doesn’t work in practice (like women telling men just to ‘be nice’). You also don’t follow your own advice to women about widening your own search parameters & about being mindful & empathetic of the the challenges of the opposite sex.

          No one is interested in following the advice of someone who doesn’t walk their talk.

        4. Marika

          I’m glad to hear you’re a kind, open and honest dater, YAG. That’s a relief.

          Remember that all I know from you is what you post on here. So if a negative opinion has been formed, it could maybe have something to do with what you write & how you present yourself in this forum.

          Women typically like asking questions. Women also like being asked questions. Men often tend to dominate conversations and don’t ask enough questions. You don’t have to ask or answer questions, but it’s not sinister or a red flag, it’s just a common female way of communicating. So no need to take it personally or end a date over a few questions.

      3. 36.1.3



        I’ll say something to you which I said to KK about Chance not too long ago. I love your posts and I agree with you the vast majority of the time, but I think you’re wasting your time with YAG. He is willfully and blissfully oblivious as to how nauseating his arrogance is.

      4. 36.1.4

        OMG…Marika, I think you’re my girl crush.lol

      5. 36.1.5

        I’m with you on this one, Marika. I’ve also approached men in person, at singles events and emailed them online. Either they did not respond, responded by asking me to call, plan and pay for dates (which I also tried) or responded with sexual invitations (I’m assuming they thought I was desperate or sexually aggressive). None of these ever worked out to a relationship. On the other hand, when men have pursued me, it often turned into a dating situation that the man in question didn’t want to end. Evan’s point is “do what’s effective”.

    2. 36.2

      Its not really necessary for women to ask men out. All they need to do is be able to signal their interest and availability through body language and some mild flirting, and let him take it from there if he’s interested and willing. Some women seem to balk at this, that its making it too easy for men or something, but trust me here few men are able to go up to a complete stranger who isn’t showing any interest and just ask her out (which is probably a good thing, given how many women complain about getting too many unsolicited approaches as it!)

      1. 36.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        The problem with body language is that it does not apply to online dating.

    3. 36.3

      “…that men should be required to pursue, plan, and pay is an anachronism that has no place in a society where women are liberated.” You are not grasping the situation at all, YAG.  You just don’t understand the economics of dating. This is not a literal quid pro quo — it’s about true, substantive equality.

      If a woman has to spend hundreds (thousands?) of dollars on skin care, hair, clothes, makeup, constantly removing all the hair from everywhere on her body but having a beautiful head of lustrous hair, work out a safety plan, etc. (All the things that go into conforming with current standards of personal appearance and basic risk management), a man can spend time doing a little planning, and he can pay for dinner and a movie. That’s true dating equality for you.

      1. 36.3.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        The women primp, men pay argument is a nonstarter. Just say you want a man to demonstrate chivalry and generosity as an indicator of how much he values you, and men may listen. Otherwise, how much you spend on self care is your own business.

        1. Yet Another Guy


          How does a women demonstrate that she values a man?   Chivalry and feminism appear to be mutually exclusive.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          Finally, a good question from the right side of the aisle, YAG!

          You already KNOW how women demonstrate that they value men. You’ve just probably never thought too much about it or articulated it before:

          Acceptance – 100%. Not trying to constantly change him to be who she wants him to be.
          Appreciation – Constantly letting him know how much she values his time, energy, generosity, consistency, kindness, patience and selflessness.
          Admiration – Words of affirmation – about whether you’re smart, funny, sexy, or sweet go a long way.

          If you are consistent, kind, selfless, chivalrous and generous of spirit…and she accepts, appreciates and admires you… doesn’t that sound like a GREAT relationship?

          If so, you finally understand what I’m teaching here. I teach women to accept/appreciate/admire and, for any man who listens, I encourage consistency, kindness, selflessness, chivalry and generosity – the very OPPOSITE of the MGTOW movement. 🙂

        3. Maria

          For the record, my reflections about the economics of dating are not something that I would ever discuss or share with a man that I am actually dating. It’s just something for this forum to be aware of, but it is a crass argument to have with someone during a courtship, and I won’t have it. In this sense, you’re right, Evan — it’s a nonstarter, even if it is true.

          I always offer to pay my share while on a date, but I am disappointed when it is accepted. Going Dutch is not romantic, it doesn’t honor the spirit of the occasion, it disrupts the flow. A minute ago we were potential lovers, now we’re two strangers scrambling for pennies and trying to decide who ate more of the appetizer.

          You are correct that it’s about generosity and chivalry or lack thereof — but again, it’s not a conversation I will have with the clueless suitor. I just remain disenchanted and move on to someone who gets it.


        4. Persephone

          Maybe it’s because I have dated / married men from Arabic and from Hispanic cultures that I think a little bit differently about your comment, Evan. In Arabic / Muslim cultures, they generally recognized that it’s the woman’s job to look pretty, and the man’s job to pay. I don’t have time to put all the little details, but this is really a big deal. Even after marriage, it’s traditional, and it’s enforced that a woman is allowed to work, but that she’s supposed to use all of her money on her personal grooming such as clothing, Nails, waxing, Hair Etc. Even the men will tell you that. It’s because they view it to be such a burden to be a woman, with menstrual pains, child-birthing, efforts at men to try to dominate women which comes from a man’s nature, etc…. if it woman wishes to voluntarily contribute to the household, it makes things run better. I find that to be the norm. If a woman wants new curtains, she can go out and get them because that is her prerogative to spend her income as she wishes. I can personally tell you that this system works very well.

          Spain was a Muslim country for 900 years, until the Reconquista in 1492. Some of these same traditions bled over into the Spanish culture, which of course was imposed upon the Mexican people by The Conquistadors. So the women are supposed to try to look very feminine.  A proper caballero would nevwr allow a woman to pay even so much as for a glass of Coke. It would bring insult upon himself and shame to his entire family.

          A man from Egypt must buy a full apartment’s worth of furniture, and purchase the condominium. This is in case there ever is a problem, so that the wife always has a place to go to in case tje husband bevomes full of rage. There’s a lot of empty beautifully furnished apartments sitting around in Cairo  with nobody living in them.

          In North America we cannot even get a man to pay for dinner. Maybe we have a whole continent of self-entitled man-children who do not want to be an adult. Men, you should prove to a woman that you are an adult. If you cannot pay reasonable amount for a dinner for your beautiful date and treat her like you are truly blessed by her presence, then grow up and learn how to work. Becuase the children she has after you impregnate her are expensive.

          And a $200 dinner? You can find a more reasonably priced restaurant than that if it is too much for you to afford.  That expensive meal should be reserved for special occasions. My man fed me $5 worth of Mexican chicharrones in corn tortillas–yes he literally hand fed me–and it was the most special and memorable thing. No, I do not exaggeratw. This is how lucky my life is.

      2. 36.3.2
        Yet Another Guy


        You are attempting to justify a skewed reality. You act like guys make zero investment in their appearance.  At my age, maintaining a pleasing appearance requires a significant investment.  I spend five days a week in the gym.  That is a huge investment in time.  I spend money on clothes and grooming (manscaping is a requirement).  I used to get a haircut every 6 to 8 weeks when I was married.  Now, it is every 3 to 4 weeks.  Much to my chargrin, I learned that guys have to BSC (back, sack, and crack) wax today at a minimum.  A man has to have a manly car, which is an additional expense.  One of the first things that had to go was my “dad” car.

        I spent over $7,500.00 on dates in addition to quite a bit on attire and grooming in one year.  I would wager that I incurred over $10K in total dating expense.  I seriously doubt that my dates spent a comparable amount on clothes and grooming for their dates.  Women can attempt to justify men pursuing, planning, and paying all they want, but the total outlays are not remotely equal.  As ScottH often mentions, it does feel like I am spending my children’s college fund dating.

        1. Tyrone

          Because it’s polite.
          Not if you have no desire to pay and will hold it against the man if you actually pay, as you expressed you do.

          Because assuming that someone will give you a free lunch or dinner is presumptuous and entitled.
          But you do expect them to pay and are disappointed when they don’t. Them allowing you to pay takes them out of the category of potential suitor, as you explained.

          Because if a guy is not in a good position financially, I’d rather not make things worse for him.
          You offering to pay, not really wanting to pay, and holding it against him if he allows you to make good on your offer doesn’t have anything to do with his financial situation.

          Because by offering to pay (genuinely offering, I don’t “fake reach”, I have paid in many occasions) I am actually giving him the chance of being magnanimous by saying: “No, allow me — my pleasure”. Which is a very different scenario of making him feel like he HAS to pay.
          No, you are offering to do something that you don’t really want to do and that you will hold against him if allowed to proceed. I didn’t say you did the fake reach,. You offered to paid. And when you’ve done so, you lost interest in the man, per your statement.

          But likewise I could ask you, Tyrone: Why pay if you don’t want to pay? Why contribute to a dating practice that is (in your mind) “gamish” and designed to trip you up?
          Why pay? Because if I don’t, women say things like:
          “I just remain disenchanted and move on to someone who gets it.”
          That wouldn’t be an effective dating practice.

        2. Persephone

          YAG, You can go to the dollar store for just a few bucks, and a simple trim is good enough. Forgo the nasty waxing. It’s gross on men anyway. Please no spray tanning or penis enlargements.  They are also gross. Maybe you’re overplaying the need for a fancy car, also. I’ve got the hottest caballero on the planet, and he has a $1,000 corker that has over 300,000 miles on the odometer. But then if materialistic women are what you want to attract, I guess you have your bait.

        3. Yet Another Guy


          I am just voicing what I have learned through experience.  What flies in your neck of the woods will not fly in mine.  I live in an extremely liberal area that has the highest percentage of graduate degree holders in the nation.

          I was actually surprised to discover that there was such a thing as the “Six Sixes” that DeeGee mentioned.  One of the “sixes” is that a guy needs to drive a manly car.  That was my experience when I first started to date using the “dad” car that I had from my marriage.  Apparently, it was the car equivalent of wearing “dad” jeans.  I had one woman (a J.D. holder by the way) tell me that I needed to get my man card back by trading that vehicle in a more manly car.

          By the way, I eat a clean, balanced diet that is free from the garbage that is injected into factory farm animals.  I can assure you that I look better at my age then you will look at my age.

        4. Persephone

          Yag, if you want mice you put out cheese. If you want to catch catfish on your hook, the bet you use his stink bait.  If you want materialistic women you get a supposed manly car. Some of us women joke that men get certain kinds of cars to compensate for small penis size. If I want a man who might come across  as the type looking to settle down and get married,  I probably would look for the kind that drives a dad car. Maybe it’s because he wants to be a dad. Is a Chevy Malibu a dad car? Maybe you should trade it in and get the dad car back, so you get a little bit better quality women. I have a JD, also, and the $1,000 dad card that my hottie drives is okay with me.

        5. Yet Another Guy


          You are just demonstrating what I mentioned earlier about having a parochial view of the world.  You are assuming that I purchased a sports car or some other big gaudy looking vehicle.  I purchased a stylish vehicle that a single professional man would drive.   I am not looking to get remarried, and I am already an experienced father…next.

        6. Persephone

          YAG, with his last comment I’m confused at what you’re even doing on this blog. You are like the guy that walks into the hottest strip club on Bourbon Street New Orleans, and the best looking dancer goes up wanting to dance for him and he says I don’t like to look at naked women. Well then why is he there?

          Or you’re like the guy that goes to the Mercedes-Benz dealership looking for a used pickup truck to haul garden manure.

          You do realize the purpose of Evan Marc Katz’s blog don’t you? Evan is marketing all this stuff tour word women who are looking for long-term relationships, or marriage. So, yes. I was correct in assuming that you, as a male, were perhaps on here to give your perspective on how women could achieve those kinds of goals.

          Remind us all again why you are here? We don’t need advice on how to pick up men who just want to stay single and have fun. We can find plenty of those. This whole Evan Marc Katz thing is for women that want to find something more than that, more than what you seem to have to offer. Therefore we want a man who has a different type of advice to offer than what you have.

        7. Yet Another Guy


          Believe it or not, if you read my early posts, I was one of those chivalrous guys who believed in commitment.  I was the guy who called ScottH out for being cheap.  It was though reading and contributing to this blog that a metamorphosis occurred.  Reading this blog opened my eyes to how archaic the way I was taught to court is in the 21st century. It exposed the logical fallacy in traditional gender-based courting in a day when woman have all of the rights that used to be reserved for men.

          I was raised by parents who married when men and women still had traditional gender-based roles, so they were my role models with respect to courting. However, the world is not remotely the same place that it was when my parents married, which is especially true for the United States.   Yet, I am supposed to live by the same code that was in place when marriage was a completely different social contract.

          I think about what my high school-educated mother would say if she read what is written by well-educated, well-heeled women on this blog.  She would just shake her head, and ask the same question that I asked Evan earlier; namely, what is a man getting in return for his effort?  I cannot begin to imagine what my grandmothers would say, but it probably would not be pretty. What my father and grandfathers received in return for their effort was a woman who cooked, cleaned, grocery shopped, did laundry, and raised the children in addition to being a loving wife.  All these men had to do was produce and handle the maintenance chores.  There were no power plays like one sees in modern marriages.  The Knight’s Code applied here because these women were helpless without their husbands.  Today, household chores and child rearing are more egalitarian, so why have we not made courting egalitarian?  If someone can answer that question in a way that is not just a smoke and mirrors logical fallacy, I will be a believer because a man is required to do all of the things that Evan enumerated when I asked the question earlier in addition to pursuing, planning, paying.  The man is required to take the financial hit in courting.

          The Red Pillars and MGTOW are gaining members, and men are becoming less chivalrous because they too see the logical fallacy in the argument.  Men are also becoming less commitment oriented because they do not see an upside to committing to just one woman.  The reality is that women no longer need men. Men have become sperm donors.  Wanting a man is not the same thing as needing a man.  Men need to feel needed.  Men need a purpose in life.

        8. Maria

          YAG — Oh, and by saying that shopping for food and cooking it at home is not monetarily equivalent to the expense of dining in a restaurant, you are making the old male chauvinist assumption that domestic work (traditionally done by women and still on women’s shoulders for the most part) is worthless.

        9. Persephone

          “in a day when woman have all of the rights that used to be reserved for men.”
          This discussion mentioned gender roles and dating. I say that one thing has nothing to do with the other. We can still have defined gender roles at the same time as feminism. This means a woman can still be a mom, wife, and nurturer, while still being able to vote, drive, get an education and get a job with fair pay. And having pretty earings, shoes and nail polish on as she goes to the voting booth! And no-o-o-o-ne of this is standing in the way of a man stepping up to be a man! It belps men by giving them more options.

          If the husband drops the ball through sickness, the wife can pick it up and carry the ball for a while, if this is a real man, not a little boy like some of you whiners seem to be. Grow up! Being a man does not mean beating the crap out of a woman to make her “obey” so meals will not be late. Being a man means being responsible. Prove it!


        10. Maria

          Thanks for your comments too, Persephone. To answer your question, I think some people are here to expose the putrid decrepit remains of the Western patriarchy.

        11. Yet Another Guy


          Oh, and by saying that shopping for food and cooking it at home is not monetarily equivalent to the expense of dining in a restaurant, you are making the old male chauvinist assumption that domestic work (traditionally done by women and still on women’s shoulders for the most part) is worthless.

          You are continuing to expose the logical fallacy that is modern courting.  If an American man were to do the same thing, instead of planning and paying for a night out on the town, he would be branded as being an undesirable cheapskate.  Most men who do not live with their mothers are self-sufficient.  They can cook, clean, do laundry, iron, and grocery shop.  All men need women for is sex, and more and more men are perfectly happy to set the table for one in that department.

          I was reading an article about how feminism has changed marriage so much that it is no longer about love.  Modern marriages are co-parenting arrangements.  These types of marriages are referred to as “HIP” (High Investment Parenting) marriages.  I can attest to the fact that my marriage fit this model to the letter.  The problem with marriages based on parenting is that they rarely last beyond the last child leaving the nest; therefore, this model does not produce a sustainable marriage.

          HIP (High Investment Parenting) Marriages Are the Future

        12. Persephone

          Yeah, I’m sure we can find all kinds of articles that say all kinds of crazy things are good ideas. I think your only purpose for being on this blog is to tell all us women how horrible feminism supposedly is.

          You can speak for yourself as far as saying all men need women for is sex. I know a lot of men that want women for far more than that. I know a lot of men that love being married, my sister and her husband being one of them. They just love the institution of marriage. They are very happily married. It’s about companionship. They genuinely enjoy shopping together, cooking together, attending events together…

          And they don’t have kids!


        13. Yet Another Guy


          They just love the institution of marriage. They are very happily married. It’s about companionship. They genuinely enjoy shopping together, cooking together, attending events together…

          And they don’t have kids!

          Watch what happens when children arrive and it is time to grow up.  Cooking together is not something that I nor any of my friends see as romantic.  None of us mind cooking for a woman, but she needs to stay out of the kitchen.

          I have no desire to continue to debate you.  You are still operating with rose-colored glasses.  I will be willing to continue this discussion in twenty years after having to maintain a multi-decade relationship renders your lenses crystal clear.  There is the Disney version of marriage, and then there is the real-world version of marriage that is full of stressors that battle test a marriage.

      3. 36.3.3

        A woman doesn’t owe a man a free dinner, regardless of how much money he spent on Sweedish penis enlargers over the years.  Though she might offer to pay for his dinner to entice him to show her the results.

        1. Maria

          Regardless of what Yet Another Guy and you, Jeremy, are now revealing in regards to the expense of  male genital prosthetics, geriatric maintenance and such, my dating experience has been that a man will throw on the less rumpled t-shirt that he can find in the laundry basket and a pair of long shorts — and that’s it. He’s ready to date. In Australia, beach footwear is not unusual for men on a date (flip-flops in the US, thongs here — it’s complicated).

          In the past I’ve had situations where the man would pay if we were going out and I would cook (and provide the food) if we were staying in, and that seemed fair  — and perhaps goes some way, YAG, towards answering your question to Evan of how a woman demonstrates that she values a man. We both had opportunities to feel and be generous AND to feel and be valued and cherished, by doing what came most naturally to each of us, without impeding or disrupting the romantic flow.

          One thing, YAG, if you care to take advice from this chivalry-diggin’ feminist: do not EVER discuss your crack/sack waxing with a potential romantic interest. Have it done if you must — or don’t. An unwaxed crack is preferable to a smooth one owned by a man who will give you a blow-by-blow of the procedure.

        2. Yet Another Guy


          First off, I am still a few years away from being a geriatric. 🙂  However, I am old enough that being in shape takes a considerable amount of effort.

          Cooking at home is not remotely equal to incurring the cost of a date at a restaurant.  If alcohol is part of the meal, a date at nice restaurant where I live is easily $200.00 with gratuity.  I can assure you that if we were to reverse the genders in your scenario, a lot of American women would think that the guy was being cheap.  Having to shoulder most, if not all of the cost of dating in age were woman have wage equality is what made me rethink what it means to be chivalrous, or even if chivalry is warranted today.  It sets up the dynamic where her money is her money and my money is her money.  I know so many couples where the woman is a professional and the man picks up most, if not all of the living expenses. I would rather be alone than be in that situation.  One thing that I truly appreciated about my ex is that she had no problem splitting the cost of dating.  In fact, she was the first women I dated who picked up the check.  I stared in disbelief when she did it the first time.

          There is this trend for women to be feminists when they are the beneficiaries while attempting to maintain traditional gender roles when the downside of feminism rears its ugly head.  A woman cannot be a little pregnant. She is either pregnant are she is not.  A woman is a feminist or she prefers traditional gender roles.  Attempting to game being a feminist when it benefits a woman and resorting to traditional gender roles when it does not only serves to frustrate men.  That is why women are seeing so much push-back when it comes to chivalry today.

          By the way, the BSC wax was not my idea.  It is something to which I finally consented as part of the modern dating experience after several women mentioned that they like men who do it.  Thankfully, I am not an extremely hairy guy. 🙂   It still sends shivers down my spine.   It took a while to get used to the pre-puberty look on women as well.  It is not my preferred look; however, as they say, “it is what is.”



        3. Persephone

          Gross. I am perfectly happy with my man’s natural body. I have no need for a bionic man. He plays soccer, so that keeps him in shape without need of a gym. See why brown men have the advantage? They play sports, and act chivalrous to women. (I jave never jad a Latino guy get all machismo on me.) Meanwhile, other, (nonbrown) men watch sports and eat some rotillo fake cheese product with chips and beer, and complain about feminism.

        4. Maria

          @YetAnotherGuy: So many things wrong with your answer… I shall put it succinctly for you, there are way too many verbose contributors around here.

          Women don’t have pay equality with men. Nowhere near. Pay equality, or thereabouts, exists in some specific dating couples, and of course there are also individual cases where the woman makes more money. In this case yes, the dating expenses should be split fairly evenly.

          I still think that men penny-pinch at their own expense and risk, in dating situations. Especially in the beginning, when the man is usually more attracted to the woman than she is to him. As I explain down-thread, many women accept dates with men they don’t really like, just to see where it all goes. So you skip dining and wining and wooing and seducing at your own risk.

          You don’t understand what feminism is. Being a feminist means that I get to CHOOSE how I position myself regarding gender roles. I can totally be a feminist, and have a partner (a man) who is a feminist too (or at least feminist-friendly), and we can decide that within the relationship we are going to preserve SOME ASPECTS of traditional gender roles, if that is what comes to us naturally. I still have my bank accounts, my career, my vote, you understand. And he has a substantively equal partnership with an educated woman who can take care of him financially should he need it.

          Within the context of a fundamentally and substantively equal partnership, my feminist man and I may very well decide that we are going to have nights, or indeed whole parts of our relationship, that are going to look very much like an old-fashioned courtship. This is all by negotiation, not something I can impose. He cannot impose anything either. Feminism is not about reversing traditional gender roles, it’s about all of us being individuals and consciously positioning ourselves along the gender spectrum and its attending roles.

          I mentioned the crack waxing thing, YAG, because you are so focused on money (and so vulgar and crass, it seems) that you are clearly at risk of bragging about this to a date. And well, it’s really gross, you see? Not very romantic.

        5. Persephone

          Maria, thank you for your last comment. Awesome! What is the purpose of spme of them to even be here in the first place? How are they contributing to we women’s insight on dating with intentions of finding marriage? It seems to me that their purpose is to get on here to shame woman and all of the institution of feminism.

          To quote my favorite politician, “Women’s rights are human rights.”

      4. 36.3.4


        Why offer in the first place if you have no real desire to pay your own way? Especially if you think that him allowing to do something that YOU OFFERED TO DO takes him out of the running as a potential partner.

        Seems a little silly and game-ish to me.

        I certainly can’t speak for every man, but I don’t particularly enjoy having to pay for woman’s – especially a woman I barely even know – food, drinks and entertainment, simply because I have a penis. But that is the way life is. I do it because it’s a generally effective dating practice that I don’t expect to change anytime soon.

        I can tell you that I’ve lost interest in women that have done things like that in the past- the fake reach for the check immediately springs to mind.

        I’m not a fan of shit tests on dates.

        1. Maria

          @Tyrone “Why offer in the first place if you have no real desire to pay your own way?”


          Because it’s polite.

          Because assuming that someone will give you a free lunch or dinner is presumptuous and entitled.

          Because if a guy is not in a good position financially, I’d rather not make things worse for him.

          Because by offering to pay (genuinely offering, I don’t “fake reach”, I have paid in many occasions) I am actually giving him the chance of being magnanimous by saying: “No, allow me — my pleasure”. Which is a very different scenario of making him feel like he HAS to pay.

          But likewise I could ask you, Tyrone: Why pay if you don’t want to pay? Why contribute to a dating practice that is (in your mind) “gamish” and designed to trip you up?

      5. 36.3.5


        The issue of the economics of dating has been discussed ad nauseam, but it should be pointed out that you don’t engage in all that primping for the men you date. Even women in committed relationships or who are married dress up and go through all those rituals before going out with friends. They do it because of a combination of self-satisfaction and maybe societal pressures.

        Also, the guy who goes on a date with you, who pays for your dinner and movie, doesn’t necessarily get to reap the benefits of all that primping. You can still decide that it’s not going anywhere. At an any rate, if you don’t owe him sex after the third date just because he pays for your dinner, he doesn’t owe you dinner because you choose to get dressed up.

        You’re also ignoring all the economics of male self improvement, such as fitness, style, etc, but that’s a separate issue.

        1. Emily, the original


          but it should be pointed out that you don’t engage in all that primping for the men you date

          YES WE DO. Have you ever been to one of those very liberal colleges where the student body is mostly women? I did. Many of the women stop shaving and doing their hair and make up while they were there. There was no point to it.

          That being said, my whole perspective has changed about who should pay for dates. I have two girlfriends on match.com and they sometimes go on several dates a week. Neither has a problem paying for her way on a date and that seems fair. I think it would get too expensive for a man to always be expected to pay.


        2. Maria

          Shaukat, you may have read about the economics of dating before, “ad nauseam”, perhaps, but you still don’t get it.

          Male fitness and self-improvement efforts and expenses are matched or exceeded by those of most women. So you have nothing on us there. When women go on a date, we go above and beyond with hair, makeup, nails, clothes, waxing, skin care, perfume, etc. YES, it is for the man, it is for the date. We don’t look like that to go grocery shopping or to hang out with friends. It is a big investment of money and effort for a woman to go on a date. And then… he shows up in shorts and t-shirt (has he even showered?) but he wants to go Dutch,  “put it in the middle” when the check arrives. Wrong move.

          Reaping the benefits of a women’s primping is not just about having sex with her. If the date doesn’t lead to sex, you have still enjoyed the company of a beautiful, well put together woman. There is pleasure in that for most men, there is an ego boost somewhere in there. There is affirmation of your own value.

          I am too much of a feminist and an independent woman to not try to even things out a bit. For example, if he has paid for dinner, I may get the movie, or I may offer that we go to a different place for coffee and dessert, and I will graciously take care of that. But when a man disrupts the romantic flow of a date out of cheapness or ignorance or a wrong sense of what gender equality is, I just don’t like it. It turns me off. Sue me.




      6. 36.3.6


        Lol, sorry, but this sentiment is outlandish:

        Reaping the benefits of a women’s primping is not just about having sex with her. If the date doesn’t lead to sex, you have still enjoyed the company of a beautiful, well put together woman. There is pleasure in that for most men, there is an ego boost somewhere in there.

        Yeah, I’m sure that the guy who paid for your dinner and who you never called back is nonetheless reaping the benefits of the ego boost you provided him by blessing him with your company. Can a guy use the same logic then? The terrible date you had with that man at the sporting event, if you were attracted to him you can always rest easy knowing that for a short period, you were in the company of a handsome man, even though he insisted on going dutch, no?

        Btw, I could match all the grooming rituals you listed above, minus the make up. Also, there are certain factors you aren’t taking into account. Since men approach, they may have to weather several rejections before finding you, would you compensate them for that trouble by footing the bill?

        I understand that women have their own set of issues and challenges when it comes to dating, but please, this isn’t one of them.

        1. Marika

          I think that’s right, Shaukat.

          Maria, when you expanded further on what you meant (in terms of the lack of effort some men put into dates) in response to my comment below it made a bit more sense.

          But the more outlandish we are in our list of grievances and our expectations of the opposite sex, the easier it is for them to dismiss us as ‘high maintenance’ or ‘entitled’, and to ignore our more reasonable expectations and concerns.

        2. Persephone

          To Shaukat and Marika,

          The sentiment that Maria expresses is quite compatible with the culture my Egyptian ex-husband came from and with the Hispanic culture my fiance comes from. It’s not too far off from old Southern Culture, either, although the south is changing. It’s all based on the expectations of Society put on to women. It’s not outlandish in cultures where gender roles are clearly defined.



        3. Maria

          You’re wrong again, Shaukat. See, first of all: the ungracious journalist wasn’t handsome. I wasn’t physically attracted to him at all. Had he been Sam Heughan, you bet: I would have hanged out with him for the whole duration of the Olympic Games. I would have paid for plane tickets, hotels, the whole nine yards. You wouldn’t have heard me complain. Not a pip.

          What many of you guys fail to understand is that it’s very common for women to accept dates with guys we’re not attracted to, just to see if their personality shines in a way that creates chemistry later. Basically, we give you guys a chance. We try to do the right thing, the mature thing, based on the old adage that beauty is only skin deep. It is true that a guy with a solid character, with charm, humor, integrity, can gradually become handsome in my eyes. It’s been known to happen.

          But not in the case of this guy. He shows up early for the first  date (which as far as I was concerned was a pity date to begin with), announces a change of plans based on a sudden work assignment, we get there, he gets his free ticket since he is “the press” and makes me pay for mine. You malady know the rest.

          No, I wouldn’t compensate guys for doing the approaching, because, as shy as I am, I have approached guys in my life too, and I have also orchestrated introductions through friends — some of which have resulted in rejection.

          The difference between me and a man in this sense is that most guys feel that they have to have a sex life going on at all times — hence the constant chase. I don’t feel that I have to have a sex life going on at all times. I did for a brief period when I was younger, but that was wrong for me. Now I would only have sex with someone I love and who loves me back.

          So, drop sex as “a need”, and you can kick back and relax, and wait to be approached, or wait for you and your soul mate to recognize each other across a crowded room.

        4. Maria

          You are on the right track, Persephone. I am from Spain originally, born and raised there until I was 19, when I went to live in Russia. Gender roles have changed A LOT in Spain in just one generation, but most men still understand the concepts of courtship and chivalry, and can apply them to practical situations.

        5. Maria

          I just realized that in my previous response today, Shaukat, I was referring to a dating story that I told further down this thread. I don’t know if you’re read it or not.

          Even if you haven’t, my answer still applies: we women accept dates with guys we are not attracted to all the time. (I no longer do this but I certainly did it a lot when I was younger). Sometimes out of pity, or out of generosity, sometimes to meet people in a new place, sometimes because we read Evan’s advice about giving a chance to guys who are into us (rather than only going for the ones we’re into), sometimes because we don’t like to chase guys and therefore we limit ourselves to the ones who chase us, sometimes because of our mother, or because we would like to be mothers ourselves. There are innumerable reasons why women accept dates with guys they are not attracted to at all.

          A Puertorican friend of mine used to say to me: “Remember that men are the ones who choose”. I’m not sure that I agree with the sentiment here, it’s kind of disempowering, but this kind of womanlore may be one more reason why women limit their prospects to those who ask them out.

          The point is: when a woman accepts a date with you, Shaukat, you should not assume that you and the woman are even in terms of attraction to each other. She may not like you at all. So, if you are really interested, this is your only chance to get her to see how great you are. Show your good side, not just physically but in terms of wit, intelligence, attentiveness, generosity, etc. Do you get it now?

      7. 36.3.7


        Ha, thanks for that comment where you deride my supposedly metro-sexual ways (it looks like the moderator deleted it, but he need not have bothered, I found it entertaining). I have no idea what it means to walk around with a ‘spinner,’ nor am I too familiar with the other attire you mentioned. Also, the fact that you think I wax my moustache probably didn’t need a separate post. I do find it ironic that you claim to be a die hard feminist and yet take no issue with berating me for supposedly engaging in effeminate behavior. I also find it interesting that you apparently can’t recognize the cognitive dissonance between your praise for cultures where traditional gender roles are rigidly enforced and where women are expected to spend all their income on buttressing their sexual appearance and your denunciation of the Western patriarchy. You’re not a feminist, hon. Stop kidding yourself.


        In your last response you’re simply pointing to a phenomenon in dating that everyone already understands: When chemistry is strong enough, one party will throw out all the rules and do anything to try and win over the other. This is not how you initially framed the issue, you talked about a quid pro quo based on what women spend on their appearance. I’m also aware that women will go out with men who they feel meh about to see if something develops, and I’m pretty sure that no man in such a position has ever won the woman over by ‘chivalry,’ though it goes without saying that a man should always try and be witty, charming and funny on a date. It’s precisely this sentiment that creates so many chumps on the dating market, chasing after beautiful, emotionally distant women and trying to win them over by throwing hundreds of dollars at them in gifts and dinners.


        1. Persephone

          Shaukat, what is a “die hard feminist” as opposed to a “feminist”? More than anything else, because of the simple fact that you know almost nothing about me, you are not qualified to determine whether or not I am a proponent of human rights for females, a.k.a. “feminism.”  I find your tone to be quite nasty toward all the female gender.  You do not appear, from your posts, to understand the basic concepts of human rights.

          I am not a proponent that  traditional gender roles are rigidly enforced” and you are being overly dramatic by characterizing my words as such. No one should be forced to be a certain way.  We should also make the choice on how we wish to present ourselves. That is one of the basic concepts of human rights. No one is forcing a woman into little tight dresses, or to have long hair to her waist with curls at the end.  No one is forcing a woman to stay home and be a house wife. By the same token, men are free to try out some of the seemingly silly fads that have come along recently, and I am not proposing them from being forced  either way.  But they are fun to watch and comment on, aren’t they?  If you have not seen the spinners and other fads I referred to, Google it.  It’s quite fun.  I enjoy watching  how marketing makes efforts to push the envelope on what is acceptable for men and women.  They have even tried to market make-up for men. I am not going to berate you personally for it, but it’s fun to watch.  It’s fun to be silly. But those are not the kinds of things that have a lot of influence over whether a man is a “real man” or a “grown up.”  They are just plain ol’ fun silliness is all.  What defines a man is his inner character and his actions.  

        2. Maria


          The reason I had to point out to the phenomenon that you say everyone understands is that, from the tenor of what you were saying, you clearly didn’t. And you still don’t. You assume in many of your responses that, when a woman is there for a date with you, she is as interested in you as you are in her. This is a fallacy, and you have to rework your thinking and your behavior to accommodate the fact that it is up to the person who asked for the date to win the other person over. The date is the opportunity.

          You are seriously clueless about the chivalry thing, Shaukat. Chivalry wins women over all the time. The whole history if Western romance is about men winning women over with chivalry. History goes on, even in these post-modern times.

          Chivalry is not about splashing cash. It is about making a woman feel respected, safe AND wanted. If you can tap into your masculine energy of protector and provider, many women will respond to that. Money is a symbol of security and excitement for many people, so yes, small treats will aid your cause.

          I am not advising that you throw away thousands of dollars on unresponsive women. I am telling you that most of the dates that you initiate are a challenge for you to win that person over. She is there but you don’t have her. Not yet. So it’s about creating a good initial experience and accessing the better man that you have inside you.

          Ultimately, that’s what love is about: chemistry, alchemy. Transformation. Bringing out the best in ourselves and each other. If a man cannot demonstrate that he hears this higher call on a date, things are not likely to develop.

    4. 36.4


      There is a lot illogical about your answer too. You are taking issue with my offering to do something that I don’t want to do and being turned off if it’s accepted. While all along, you are doing the same exact thing.

      I stand by the reasons why I do what I do; they are all very solid reasons. Your reason seems solid too. If you like the woman enough, you will go on courtship mode and you will accept the expense. And if I like a man enough, and he has enough going for him in other areas, I may overlook the awkward fumbling over the check.

      As I have explained down-thread, most dating situations begin with the man being more interested and attracted to the woman than the woman is to him. So you are doing the right thing by showing yourself at your most gracious, attentive and generous. Good for you, Tyrone.

      To keep your expenses within reasonable parameters, I suggest that you focus on one woman at a time. I don’t know if it’s an American thing or what, but I don’t understand this nonsense about dating several people at the same time, and later having to have the conversation about “being exclusive”.

      Romance is about presence and intention, Tyrone. Remember that. You cannot fake it. You cannot dilute yourself 15 ways and expect to succeed.

      1. 36.4.1


        Prior to online dating, dating multiple people wasn’t the norm in Australia. Having dated online prolifically over the last few years, I can assure you that now, in that forum, it is. You’re welcome to only date one person at a time if you prefer it, but I would be surprised if the men you go out with are doing the same (if you date online).

        It’s a little confronting at first, but given that these people are complete strangers, dating more than one person (in the early stages eg first few dates) is a useful strategy. It stops you getting too hung up on one person, or expecting too much from someone you don’t know. It’s your choice, of course, but increasingly it’s becoming the norm.

        1. Maria

          I know that things are the way you describe, Marika. I would never be able to date a man who is dating other women at the same time, though. I wouldn’t even need to ask him, I would just know from the level of presence and involvement that he is spreading himself too thin.

          Romance is about presence and intention. People dilute themselves at their own risk. It may not be such an effective strategy as they think.

          I dated online years ago but I no longer do it. Throughout my whole life it’s been very rare for me to meet men I like enough to be bothered to date them, online or off. Most of the time I cannot think of one single man I know that I’d like to date, let alone half a dozen.

      2. 36.4.2

        Thank you so much for pointing that out, Maria! Every one of your points was valid, but the one about dating several people at the time really hit home.

        I’ve decided I’m way too old fashioned to date these days. If all I’m looking for is sex or maybe a friends with benefits situation, I see no point in even bothering with an actual date. There are plenty of other, casual ways to go about achieving that goal.

        And if I’m actually looking for a relationship, I prefer focusing on one man at the time. Both parties should put some effort in to the date at that point. And I would certainly expect that both parties are there under the impression that each is looking for an “exclusive” arrangement (as their ultimate purpose of dating), whether they actually end up having any sort of chemistry or not.

        I think this whole dating multiple people at a time has giving dating a bad reputation (or a whole new meaning). Or rather: No meaning at all. I can see how it would get expensive, having 3-4 dates per week lined up. Likewise, I think it creates an atmosphere where it is hard for either person to feel at least a little special. After all, you’re just one out of a bunch the other person is “trying out” for a partner. It puts one in a constant state of competition.

        For me, there has to be something I see in a man that makes him more special than others in order for me to go on a date. I certainly wouldn’t expect him to feel too good about the date, or put in too much effort, if he knows I’ll be going on dates with 2-3 more men the same week, And I wouldn’t bother putting in too much effort if I knew he was meeting a few more women that week. Why bother?

        I’m very open-minded when it comes to sex. But I have no need to “date” my sexual partners. We can be friends, go out, each pay or own way, just have casual fun together without too much effort. There’s really not much need to impress each other.

        But I also draw clear lines between those kind of partners, and people I would consider for a potential relationship. Called me old-fashioned, but I cannot imagine dating, possibly even having sex with multiple people at the time to see which one suits me the best for a relationship. How would you even decide? This guy is nicer, that one funnier, the third better in bed. But wait – maybe the guy I’m going on a date with next week will be better than all of them?

        No wonder no one is ever satisfied with anything anymore, always looking for the next better thing.

        For me, when you date, you put a bit of an effort into it, even if you end up not liking the person. That includes the men paying, and the women showing some appreciation for his efforts.

        Maybe if women expected it more, men would become a bit more picky about who they go out with, and stick to casual encounters otherwise.

        1. Maria

          @Sylvana, I agree with you on everything except on the “friends with benefits” or casual sex practices. And even here it’s not so much that I don’t agree with you  — I pass no moral judgment on it. It’s just that this kind of thing doesn’t work for me at all. I’d much rather spend some quality time with a Hitachi wand than risk complicating (ruining?) a friendship or using a random stranger as a masturbatory aid.

          But yes, the current dating practices are turning those who submit to them into disposable trash. There is a psychological price to pay for this, not to mention the ever-growing STD epidemic.

    5. 36.5

      YAG, you say all that men need women for is sex. You are so wrong. That may be YOUR case. No self-respecting woman will hang out with a guy that makes such statement.

      You are trying to bamboozle women into giving you free sex. You offer zero emotional investment on your part  AND you are misusing feminism for the purpose of being cheap about even paying for dinner and entertainment. And you are frustrated because it’s not working for you. How could it?
      You just need to hire prostitutes, dude, seriously.  Go pro. That way you will know in advance exactly how much you pay and how much sex you get.


      1. 36.5.1
        Yet Another Guy


        You are in denial if you believe that the men you date are initially drawn to you for anything other than the desire to conquer you sexually.  That is why women who are not considered to be sexually attractive are not pursued as aggressively as women who are considered to be sexually attractive.  A man’s brain is wired very differently than a woman’s brain when it comes to coupling.  While women tend to couple for safety and security (a relationships fills that most basic female primal need), sex is what drives men to couple.   It is a known as the primal urge to pursue and conquer females.  If you take away a man’s sex drive or his ability to perform sexually, he will lose the the desire to couple. A huge part of man’s self-esteem is derived from his sexual prowess.  You can Google it. It is a well-documented fact.   Evan puts it in much simpler terms; namely, men look for sex and find love.

        I do not have to bamboozle women into having sex with me.  In fact, I no longer even have to put much effort into it.   That is the beauty of being in one’s fifties and not looking every year of it.   The curse of looking younger than my age when I was younger has paid dividends now that I am older.  All I need to do is wait a little longer than the average guy (which is all that long these days), and the woman I am with starts to wonder if find her sexually attractive.  Fifty-something American women can be irrationally insecure when it comes to body image.

        I am not misusing feminism.  I am merely stating facts.  Women earn as much as men.  Yet, men have to take the financial hit in courting. That sets up the wrong dynamic in relationship.  What  I am questioning is why women’s liberation has not liberated men when it comes to dating.  I do not believe for a minute that men would not enjoy being pursued.  I do not have a problem with it when I desire a woman.  Millennial American men also seem to have no problem with it.   If a woman pursues a man, and he runs away, it is because he does not desire her.  That lack or loss of desire has nothing to do with her pursuit.   It has to do with the fact that men will pursue women for sex to whom they have weak attraction at best.  Women do not date down for sex.  Men do it all of the time.

        1. Maria

          YAG —  Women do not earn as much as men. The pay gap still exists in many occupations. How about you google “gender pay gap”? Plus women lose many work years and wages to child rearing because many men refuse to step up and do their share. Many more women are single parents than men, and  even if those children have fathers (which of course they do), many of these fathers are not in the children’s lives or support them financially.  This means that those women have to lose wages to care for those children on their own, and spend money they don’t really have on raising those children. All this contributes to lower overall remuneration for women.

          You are the mansplaining champion of the western world, YAG. I am aware that the initial attraction that draws a man to a woman is sexual, and that all the men who approach me do so for sexual reasons. You’re dumbing down this forum by overstating things everyone knows, trying to lecture me in the same old cliches and truisms.

          I know that men and women have different angles in what makes a prospective mate sexually attractive. Some of that is biologically determined, but this connection has been exaggerated. Research “the appeal to nature fallacy”. Or stay ignorant.

          You contradict yourself all the time, to the point that I am beginning to wonder about your cognitive capacity. Here you complain that women don’t pursue men, in a different post you said that you were turned off because a woman pursued you online.Which one is it?

          Regarding sex as motivation, what you stated in a different post was something very different from the commonplace banalities you are spewing  now. What you said then was that ALL that men need women for is sex — and that more and more men are choosing to go solo even in this area. That’s when I suggested that you should hire prostitutes. I cannot imagine an amateur woman wanting to have sex with someone as misogynistic as you are.

          Being motivated by sexual attraction INITIALLY is not the same as not wanting anything other than sex ever. You are changing the story now, but I actually believe the first thing you said: that all you want from a woman, EVER, is sex.

          So… I can see that I am going to have to line up the dots real close for you here, if you are ever going to connect them.

          I am very doubtful  that you get laid at all because the numbers are not in your favor. See if you can follow this:

          Since all you want from a woman you are dating is sex, that means that if she has sex with you, she is giving you 100% of what you want. Let’s say that for this woman you are dating, sex is 20% of what she wants, with other things being friendship, support, intimacy, openness to love, etc. Since you are not willing or capable to give those things (because of your recalcitrant misogyny, materialistic outlook and emotional retardation), you are only able to satisfy 20% of this woman’s needs (IF THAT), whereas she satisfies 100% of yours. She has a terrible deal with you, and you are still counting pennies and resenting any money spent on dates, demanding that she contributes her “fair share”.

          But again: you are shortchanging her massively by giving her only 20% of what she wants while she is giving you 100% of what you want, you see?

          You are not stating facts, YAG. You’re peddling bullshit. I trust the women you pursue will see this as clearly as I see it.


        2. Clare



          “What  I am questioning is why women’s liberation has not liberated men when it comes to dating. I do not believe for a minute that men would not enjoy being pursued.”


          You really still cannot understand this, after your droning on and on about how the only thing men get out of relationships is sex? Your inability to create logical connections within your own argument is staggering. So what you’re saying is, the only thing men get out of relationships is sex, and you cannot understand why women do not pursue men for this, even when that’s not all that they want out of relationships? You’re not questioning why the women’s liberation movement has not liberated men in dating. You’re stomping your foot like a petulant child wondering why you don’t get everything that you want. Women whom you can use for only sex, and being spared the effort of pursuing her for it.


          Holy jesus. The mind boggles. Like Maria said, anachronistic, misogynistic bullshit.

        3. Maria

          Yes, @Clare, I think YAG needs to be done posting here, or risk to continue exposing himself for the sad lowlife and the illogical twit that he is.

          YAG: “I do not have to bamboozle women into having sex with me.  In fact, I no longer even have to put much effort into it.  […] All I need to do is wait a little longer than the average guy (which is [sic] all that long these days), and the woman I am with starts to wonder if find her sexually attractive.  Fifty-something American women can be irrationally insecure when it comes to body image.”

          So yeah, he says he doesn’t have to bamboozle and then he immediately regales us with an example of his behavior that is the very definition of bamboozling.

          YAG is manipulating aging women with low self-esteem into feeling worse about themselves to get them to have sex with him. Charming, ain’t it? He cannot rely on his own attractiveness to get laid, so he relies on the woman’s desperation, resorts to mind games to get her to give him what he wants. Come to think of it, this is not so much bamboozling as borderline sociopathic behavior.

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Clare and Maria

          What you are failing to recognize is that I am speaking of men in general, not myself.  Men and women date for very different reasons.  Men definitely date to get laid.  That is an uncontested fact that even Evan himself has mentioned numerous times.  Love is a side effect of a man’s pursuit to spread his genome, not the driver.  They only time in a man’s life where sex is not the primary driver is when he is looking to settle down and start a family.  A man has little reason to commit to one women on other side of that event.

          I personally do not care if I ever have sex with another woman.  I am perfectly content with setting the table for one in that area.  I have mentioned that fact numerous times. I rarely date a woman more than a couple of times by my own decision, and I do not sleep with a woman until I am exclusive and we have both been tested because it is stupid to do so in a day where one in four women and one in five men carry genital HSV.

          Contrary to Maria’s assertion, I do not have to trick women into having sex with me.  The women who date want to have sex as much, if not more than men at my age.  Trust me, when one is a fifty-something man with a full head of non-gray hair and a muscular physique (i.e., “alpha” packaging),  it does not take much effort to get a woman into bed.  That is not my goal.  If  that were my goal, I could have sex with at least one new woman every week.

          I go into every date questioning why I am even dating.  I mentioned that men need to be needed and that men need a purpose in life, which historically has been providing for a family.  I have already raised my family; therefore,  I am now having to redefine what it means to date.  What is the purpose in dating as a self-sufficient divorced man whose child rearing days are in his rear view mirror?   That is for which I do not have an answer (I am certain that there are a lot of women my age who are asking the same question).  I attempted to turn a few of my dates into platonic friends with whom I could do things; however, that did not work because these women held onto the hope that I would come around (by the way, I was not having sex with any of these women, nor was I pursuing it).

          So, in the end, I am questioning why dating has not been liberated while every other aspect of daily life has been affected.   That realization hit me like a ton of bricks a couple of months ago.  If I seek another life partner, I sure as heck do not want to start out with the false premise that her time is more valuable than my own, and that is exactly the dynamic that the man pursues, plans, and pays paradigm creates.   It creates the dynamic where I have to prove my worthiness while all she has to do is be present.  As a man who was married for a long time, that is the wrong way to go about selecting a life partner.

        5. Maria

          OK, so let me get this straight, YAG.

          You have told us that:

          – Men date for sex, not you — just men in general

          – You now say that you don’t date for sex, but you have also told us in the past that you date only for sex

          – You told us that getting women to sleep with you is very easy: you just wait a little longer than other men to ask 50+ insecure women to have sex with you. The slight delay is the trick that ensures that they will put out immediately, as they begin to wonder whether you desire them at all. This is not an assertion of mine, this is something you have told us you do. Exploiting women’s vulnerabilities in this manner is nasty and misogynistic. You fail to realize that and you still sound put upon, like something is owed to you that is not being given.

          – You now say that you are confused about why you are dating at all

          – But you don’t want to stop dating, you want to keep to go on dating except you don’t want to make any effort or put in any planning or spend any money

          – You want women to pursue you for the pleasure of being conned by you, tricked into believing they are less desirable than they are so that you can have easy sex with them, without having to rely on demonstrating any good qualities on your part (since you are so short of these)

          – And you wonder why dating is not liberated.

        6. Maria

          YAG: Stop exploiting people. If men date for sex, ask yourself what women date for and whether you are giving it to them. You will find that you are not and, in that case, do you really expect them to give you more of what you want, e.g, “liberation” in the form of perks, money, planning, effort?

        7. Persephone

          YAG, you have an “unorthodox” view of liberation. It seems consistent with the kind of things said by men who mock the term Women’s Liberation AKA Feminism. They want to attach the word Liberation to all sorts of things that they have complaints about. I can imagine one of them saying they went to liberate prostrate cancer so that women can get it too. I also imagine that these are the kinds of men that can’t stand it that a women welding or turning wrenches next to them will get paid the same that they would. Oh the thought of it!

          You aren’t going to liberate dating because you can’t liberate human nature, and you can’t liberate biology.




        8. Clare



          “What you are failing to recognize is that I am speaking of men in general, not myself.  Men and women date for very different reasons.  Men definitely date to get laid.”


          Speak  for yourself there, sport. You cannot speak on behalf of all men any more than I can speak on behalf of all women. And please spare me the links to the studies that supposedly back up your view. I couldn’t give a fuck, because I know and have dated many men who derive far more benefit from dating and being in a relationship than just sex. The men that I have dated and count among my acquaintance date for companionship, friendship, connection (emotional and mental), domestic bliss, having someone to care for and be cared for by, having someone to share the burdens of life with, love, romance, and and and… I could go on. I will even venture to say that I know men who prefer to postpone sex with a woman until they know her better. I find it sad that you have such a low opinion of your own gender or that you surround yourself with men like those you describe.


          “If I seek another life partner, I sure as heck do not want to start out with the false premise that her time is more valuable than my own, and that is exactly the dynamic that the man pursues, plans, and pays paradigm creates.   It creates the dynamic where I have to prove my worthiness while all she has to do is be present.”


          No wonder it doesn’t make sense to you, since that’s not really how it works. The woman’s time is most certainly not more valuable than the man’s, and I defy you to point out one commenter who has said so. She also does a hell of a lot more than be present.


          And as for initiating and pursuing, almost every female commenter on this blog has pointed out that that they have tried that, with mostly negative results. I know I have many times and it has almost never worked out well. And before you say “oh well, the guy didn’t desire you to begin with,” I have asked my guy friends and brother about this. Many of them have told me specifically that, while they appreciate a woman showing her interest in them, they do not like to be chased or pursued. They find it stalkerish and a turn-off. I have also never, not one single time, had a man complain to me about being the one to ask me out or make first contact.

        9. Yet Another Guy


          We are going to have to agree to disagree on the subject of pursuit.  Men will pursue up to a point, after which most will break pursuit if the woman does not start a carry a share of the load. I have been pursued by women, and I have been stalked by woman.  In fact, I was recently stalked by a woman. There is a difference between pursuing and stalking.  The first behavior is acceptable, even flattering.  The second behavior is disturbing just as it would be for a woman who is stalked by a man.

          No wonder it doesn’t make sense to you, since that’s not really how it works. The woman’s time is most certainly not more valuable than the man’s, and I defy you to point out one commenter who has said so. She also does a hell of a lot more than be present.

          I beg to differ.  That is exactly how it works from a man’s point of view.  If I fail to pursue, plan, and pay, nothing happens, even if a woman knows that I am interested.  Women generally refuse to make the first move.  Yet, most will complain about not getting the men they desire.  No effort produces no result.  Guys date women that the desire because they are willing to put forth effort.

          An opinion that I have seen voiced here by woman many times that makes absolutely no sense is the one where a woman will allow a man to pay if she is interested while splitting the tab with a man in whom she is not interested.  A woman should either require all men to pay or split the tab with all men; otherwise, it sounds a lot like she is making the man in whom she is interested pay for it.  The reason why I continued to date my ex is because she was not afraid to pickup the tab; therefore, I knew that she was dating me for me.  She was not making me pay for it. We were equals.

          I do not know if you have been married or for how long, but the qualities required to make a marriage stand the test of time have nothing to do with a man’s willingness to pursue, plan, and pay.  The number one quality in a man is fidelity.  No other quality comes remotely close to a man’s ability to keep his fly buttoned and remain faithful to his family.

          You and Maria know nothing about me.  You only know a few opinions that I have voiced.  However, I seriously doubt that any of the men with whom you have been involved would endure what I did to hold my marriage together and provide a stable home for my children.  In fact, not many men would be willing to endure what I endured for half as long.  I lived in a marriage that was completely devoid of intimate contact for a decade.  I am not talking about just sexual intimacy.  I am talking about all forms of intimacy.  Yet, I did not cheat.  Why? I made a commitment to my ex when I took my vows and my children when they were born.  From that point forward, it was not about what made me happy.  It was about remaining faithful to those commitments.

          Fidelity is followed by integrity and honor.   A man who does what he says, can be relied upon, and conducts himself with honor are critical to maintaining any long-term commitment.  Once again, neither of these qualities has anything to do with pursuing, planning, and paying, and filtering men based on the “pursue, plan, and pay” doctrine will not reliably yield men with these qualities.

          So, you, Maria, and Pesephone can continue to pass judgement, but what I know is that I am one of the better men in the dating pool.  When I make a commitment, I do whatever it takes to keep that commitment, and that extends to everything I do in life, not just romantic relationships.

        10. Marika


          Wonderful to hear you were a devoted husband and father. Those must’ve been some tough years.

          You’re right that none of us know you, we only know what you express here, which is relentlessly one-sided against women. Given your history, it must be the case that you are still angry at your ex and taking it out on all womenkind. By being on dating sites while not really wanting to date (dating sites are not for making platonic friends) and being a regular commenter on a dating site for women who want to find love, when you are so clearly uninterested in women finding love.

          I went on a date with a man whose philosophy after a divorce from a woman who cheated on him & ran off with his friend was: ‘have fun, do no harm’. I thought that was brilliant. It’s a good way to live, too. He had a painful marriage  (as many of us have), but came out of it with empathy for others. He didn’t want his dating legacy to be hurting others the way he was hurt.

        11. Clare



          Yes, I have been married. And ex-husband most certainly was the type of man who would have remained faithful and would have honoured our commitment until death did us part. He was a wonderful man, he adored me and I loved him. I broke it off for quite different reasons – we were going in different directions and I knew we couldn’t make each other happy. I stand by my decision, because he is now blissfully wedded to a woman who does want the same things as him and has two beautiful children.


          You’re right I don’t know you. But your argument is a straw man. It looks at one tiny piece of the puzzle to the exclusion of all other elements and insists on being bitter and twisted about it. I don’t know why you stayed in a marriage which was absolutely devoid of any physical touch and intimacy for years and years. I wouldn’t have. But here again, it is a nuanced argument – why was there no physical touch and intimacy? You don’t need to tell me the details, and I would rather you didn’t. But it has been my experience that physical affection and intimacy flows as a consequence of emotional connection, and when the one is absent, so is the other.


          You say you stayed out of fidelity, honour and integrity. I’m glad to hear you stay true to your vows, but it takes more than dogged commitment to stick it out no matter what to make a good partner. And so I say, your argument is a straw man. You say that you doubt that the men I know have the kind of commitment you possess. I say I know all kinds of men who have exactly that level of commitment. I know wonderful men. I also know men like my father, who would never have cheated on or left my mother, but who was physically and emotionally abusive, stingy, selfish and cold. Again, nuance. Hopefully you can see that it is not as simple as a man who is willing to initiate, pay and pursue initially = a man who cannot honour his commitments. You might have fidelity and honour, but so do plenty of men who are happy to pursue a woman to be in a relationship with her.


          And finally, this part of your post is utter and complete bollocks. It is a straw man. You are talking out of your arse:

          “Men will pursue up to a point, after which most will break pursuit if the woman does not start a carry a share of the load.”

          Utter horseshit. I have not seen one single female commenter on here say that they refuse to show a man any interest or carry a share of the load after the initial pursuit. I personally start to offer to pay and show my interest from the first date, and I start to initiate contact in a relationship which is gaining momentum from about two weeks in. I kiss on the first date, I offer to pay (and am happy to do so), I don’t wait an unreasonable length of time to have sex, I send cute texts, I cook, I drive, I call occasionally, I do a host of other things, and I’m sure many of the other female commenters on here do too, so I’m not sure where this bullshit about women sitting back and doing nothing comes from.


          And your argument about the difference between pursuing and stalking is another straw man. Every single person on here knows the difference. You can feel the difference. And yet I stand by what I said. The men I know prefer to make the first move. They don’t like being chased. This has been proved to me literally hundreds of times in my dating life. This does not mean that I do nothing. (See paragraph above.) I take a nuanced approach to dating. And I can only say that it is sad that your anger towards your ex has made you see things as so black and white.

        12. Jeremy

          @Clare, I agree with most of your comment and very much disagree with YAG.  However, one thing you wrote stands out, “But it has been my experience that physical affection and intimacy flows as a consequence of emotional connection, and when the one is absent, so is the other.”


          This is a belief that is so common among women, so ubiquitous, and so FALSE that I felt the need to respond to it.  None of us desires sex for the sex itself.  We all have subconscious goals that we hope sex will give us – these are “meta-goals” – and most of us are consciously unaware of our meta-goals, thinking we just want pleasure.  But for some, the meta-goal is novelty, for others it is validation, for others it is emotional connection, for others it is securing a relationship.  The list goes on and on.


          The only people for whom physical intimacy flows naturally from emotional connection are those for whom that connection is their sexual meta-goal.  Please note, I did not write that it holds for people who like emotional connection, I wrote people for whom connection is their SEXUAL meta-goal.  This is a minority of people – even a minority of women.


          For some people, the sex drive dies because there is no more novelty, even though emotional connection persists.  For others it dies because there is no more validation (eg. the partner is not as attractive anymore).  For others, it dies because a relationship has been secured and the children have been had, so there no longer remains any sexual meta-goal, no reason to have sex, despite the persistence of emotional connection.


          We must dispel the belief that emotional connection is the key to sexual desire – not because it is never true, but because it confuses the hell out of people who find themselves without desire (or with a partner who lacks desire) and they can’t figure out why.

        13. Clare



          Interesting point. And I admit, my choice of words might have been better. “Emotional connection” is perhaps a rather narrow way of referring to the broad phenomenon which I was talking about, where a husband and a wife become distant from one another. I agree; sometimes they can love each other very much, and yet not desire to have sex with each other (or more usually, one of them does, and the other doesn’t). I only meant to say that, in my experienceand I don’t claim to have the last word here, there is usually some element missing from the relationship which is driving the distance – be it fun, understanding, lack of effort into physical appearance, stress… what have you.

        14. Jeremy

          So I agree with you here, Clare, but I think the wording is very important because it signifies the direction of causality.  In most cases where one partner loses desire, the couple will find themselves with emotional distance.  But did the emotional distance CAUSE the lack of desire, or was it the result?  I would submit that in many cases, the latter is true.


          I’ve written before about sexual “on” and “off” switches, and how comfort qualities deactivate the sexual brakes, while arousal qualities activate the sexual accelerator.  The assumption that a lack of emotional connectedness is the cause of a lack of desire places the blame on an excess of OFF switches.  But more often the problem is a lack of arousal – a paucity of ON switches.  Sex is not desired because the individual feels that there is nothing “in it” for her/him.  That something missing is the meta-goal.  And to simply call it emotional connectedness is to mis-identify the root cause.

        15. Yet Another Guy


          For others, it dies because a relationship has been secured and the children have been had, so there no longer remains any sexual meta-goal, no reason to have sex, despite the persistence of emotional connection.

          From a post-mortem analysis of my marriage, what you wrote about this sexual meta-goal makes the most logical sense.  Intimate contact did not stop abruptly. The physical decoupling of my marriage did in fact start after our twins were born.  It was a difficult pregnancy that left my ex absolutely certain that she was done with child bearing.   I even underwent vasectomy to ensure that there we no more pregnancies.  As the years passed, our focus became one of providing opportunities to our children that we could have only dreamed about as children while maintaining a peaceful home.  To be completely honest, living that way became normal.  There were temptations along the way, but no dalliance was worth throwing away what I had sacrificed so much of my life to achieve for my children.  I am the first man in extended family to graduate from college and the only member of my generation to graduate from graduate school, and I did it without a dime of support from my parents from the age of 18.

          Contrary to what has been assumed,  I am not bitter from my marriage.  My ex and I are still friends. We were excellent financial partners, which more than I can say about many marriages.  I played a part in the lack of physical contact department.  I stopped caring about it.  I stopped investing in that part of my marriage.  Franky, it was not worth the effort.   I know a lot of couples that have what are basically sexless marriages.  It was not until I left my marriage that I realized how odd it was for a married couple to go that long without any physical contact.


        16. Jeremy

          @YAG, yes, that particular meta-goal is the most insidious, especially in relationships where there is no good, logical reason for loss of desire.  Here you are, still looking the same, still prioritizing the needs of your partner, still doing all the right things, yet your spouse’s desire has tanked completely and you don’t know why.  You see her spending time on the kids, on her friends, her family, her gym membership, her facebook groups, but she has no time for you.  And worse, doesn’t WANT to want to have more time for you.  Sex, for such a person, has become a chore.  One more thing to do in an exhausting day – no matter how many times, once the sex is happening, the person is surprised to find herself enjoying it, the memory of the enjoyment just doesn’t stick post-fact.


          It’s because the meta-goal is gone.  The relationship and kids have been secured, so what’s the point in having the sex, if the point in having sex was always about securing a relationship and kids?  Insidious.  Can not be solved by working out and getting buff, or getting a better wardrobe.  Can not be solved by better tending to your wife’s emotional needs or following her instructions for the various excuses she invents and believes.  Can only be solved by introducing just the right amount of instability back into the relationship to re-establish the meta-goal of securing a relationship.  Because if that’s the person’s meta-goal, no other meta-goal will magically take its place.  Oh, and following that same strategy of introducing instability will fail completely if you mis-diagnose the meta-goal, especially if the meta-goal is actually validation.


          This should be taught in grade-school.  Amazing how no one seems to know about it, and how long it took me to figure it out.

        17. Persephone


          As to Loss of Libido:  declining hormones, job stress, relationship issues, and other problems.   A recent study showed that nearly one-third of women aged 18 to 59 suffer from a lost interest in sex, and it’s not all in their heads. Mental illnesses such as depression, or medical conditions, such as endometriosis, fibrosis, and thyroid disorders, impact a woman’s sexual drive both mentally and physically.

          What is a “meta-goal”?  Is that some new kind of bait for spotted bass or something to do with androids and doe-in-heat urine?  (Sorry, I live in the south where a lot o men love to fish.) Maybe it’s something these newfangled life coaches came up with.  Y’all know my objection to all this metricizing of love affairs.  Meta-goals sound like another form of this stuff. Let’s just all put on lab coats and get laid on stainless steel gurneys.

        18. Tom10

          @ Jeremy
          “It’s because the meta-goal is gone.  The relationship and kids have been secured, so what’s the point in having the sex, if the point in having sex was always about securing a relationship and kids?”
          Great comment Jeremy, and I think this touches at the very core of why a certain percentage of men delay making the ultimate commitment either a) at all or b) indefinitely: they worry that once he makes such a commitment and kids are on the scene then the woman’s meta-goals are fulfilled and she has no motivation to consider his needs anymore. Furthermore, not only are her goals fulfilled he now has no leverage in the situation at all (assuming leaving the marriage isn’t an option).
          Stalling on making the commitment leaves her meta-goal dangling; therefore, she has motivation to prioritize his needs until her goal is achieved.
          “Can only be solved by introducing just the right amount of instability back into the relationship to re-establish the meta-goal of securing a relationship.”

          This is fascinating, plus, I’d imagine, very difficult to execute delicately.
          The traditional trick here was to subtly remind one’s partner of what a catch they are and what options they have, maybe by mentioning how someone attractive in the office is flirting with them. Is that what you mean by “introducing just the right amount of instability back into the relationship”?
          @ Persephone
          “What is a “meta-goal”?”
          I interpret it as one’s secondary goal. So each individual is driven initially on their primary goal, however, it’s not until one has achieved both primary and secondary goals that one can be completely satisfied.
          So, for most men, their primary goal is sex whereas their secondary/meta goal is to invest his resources (time, energy and money) into only the most deserving woman.
          And for most women, their primary goal is to acquire the highest-quality male genes they can (chemistry), whereas their secondary/meta goal is to subsequently access said male’s resources (time, energy and money through commitment).
          It’ll be interesting to see what Jeremy means by it though…

        19. Jeremy


          A meta-emotion is the way a person feels about an emotion.  My ill sister feels annoyed by people calling her and inquiring as to her health.  But then she feels guilty about feeling annoyed.  The guilt is the meta-emotion, and it is far more harmful that the emotion.  Failure to recognize a meta-emotion for what it is leads to an inability to deal with it.


          A meta-goal is, in the same way, the goal behind another goal.  And failing to recognize it is just as harmful as failing to recognize a meta-emotion.


          And regarding your short list of reasons why a person might lose interest in sex – I am very well aware of those.  If that list was comprehensive, there would be no need for this discussion.

        20. Emily, the original


          “Can only be solved by introducing just the right amount of instability back into the relationship to re-establish the meta-goal of securing a relationship.”

          You wouldn’t be talking about doing something inconsistent to ratchet up the dopamine reward centers in the brain, would you? I thought that wasn’t your thing.

        21. Jeremy

          @Emily, yes, that’s exactly right.  And it’s not my thing.  Doesn’t work when someone does it on me.  Because my sexual meta-goal is validation – being found attractive and desirable by a high-quality partner whom I desire in return.  The worst thing you can do for a validational person is to introduce competition anxiety – competition is the antithesis of validation.


          But although it’s not my thing, one does what works.  If my wife needs a bit of instability to maintain desire (ie. to activate her arousal “on” switches via a dopaminergic pathway) then that’s what I need to do.  And as Tom wrote, one needs to do it gently.  Because as much as the Red Pill guys like to talk about dread game – and as much as dread game does work to generate arousal – the goal is not to introduce anxiety or to give the person a complex.  It is to maintain a good and loving relationship.  And so it can involve telling my spouse that someone tried to flirt with me.  Or letting her see me in an environment where I am admired and complimented by others.  Or refusing to do things she asks when I find them to be over-the-top.  The notion that the relationship is not totally secure re-activates the dopamine pathway to arousal….in people with that meta-goal.

        22. Marika

          Something’s not adding up, YAG. You’re not bitter towards the woman you claim took away your ‘man-card’ (amongst other things)?

          Why so relentlessly negative towards women (and your ex’s marital behavior) if you and you ex are great friends and there’s no bitterness?

        23. Emily, the original


          Because my sexual meta-goal is validation – being found attractive and desirable by a high-quality partner whom I desire in return.

          What are the other sexual meta goals and what if your goals are vastly different from your partners?

           Or refusing to do things she asks when I find them to be over-the-top.

          That made me laugh. Years ago I acted in local theater. We were in the middle of a production and I was done with my scenes. I was talking to a fellow actor in the show, who was trying to prepare for his big monologue. I was rambling on (frankly oblivious to his attempt at concentration) and he looked at me and (slightly) jokingly said, “Emily, will you shut up.” All of  sudden I saw him in a new light! Point taken. I was getting on his nerves, and I thought it took balls to tell me that.

          The notion that the relationship is not totally secure re-activates the dopamine pathway to arousal….in people with that meta-goal.

          Yes, because attraction is based on feeling slightly off balance.

        24. Jeremy

          Emily, a meta-goal can be anything, really.  It’s what you want to “get” from having sex.  The common ones (that I’ve observed) are:

          – Validation (do you derive more pleasure from sex depending on the appearance/ status of your partner and how into you they are?)

          – Novelty (do you tire quickly of sexual partners?)

          – Pleasure (would you derive as much from masturbation as from sex, given that the pleasure can be the same or greater?)

          – Obtaining a relationship

          – Having children

          – Establishing an emotional connection


          Something important to note is that very few people are aware of their meta-goal, they just know they are horny (or not).  Very few women are consciously out to “trap” a man into a relationship by having sex with him, nor are they using sex as bait.  They legitimately want to have sex, and are far more willing and often more orgasmic when they feel there is something in it for them – a goal.  And when the goal is missing, they aren’t usually conscious of why, they just know they aren’t into it.


          What if your goal differs from that of your partner?  Doesn’t matter.  As long as you both are willing to give the other what they need.  My goal is validation.  My wife’s is obtaining a relationship. Works just fine as long as each of us feels we are getting what we need.

        25. Yet Another Guy


          Why so relentlessly negative towards women (and your ex’s marital behavior) if you and you ex are great friends and there’s no bitterness?

          To be quite honest, this blog has exposed a level of female entitlement that I never knew existed.  My ex was a lot of things, but she never exhibited the princess-like attitude that many women on this blog exhibit.  In many ways, she was an anti-princess.  Did she use my children to emasculate me? Absolutely!   Was she mean spirited at times? Absolutely!  However, I would take her over most of the female commenters on this blog.  She never once exhibited the level of entitlement that I see exhibited on this blog.  She never once thought that I owed her a thing for her company and attention other than my company and attention.  Setting thresholds for a man’s interest is a losing game after age thirty.  That is when the power dynamic skews in favor of men.

        26. GoWiththeFlow

          Jeremy & Tom,

          Very interesting and understandable explanation!

          I’m like you Jeremy, a partner introducing instability into the relationship would not work for me.  If he does it enough my reaction is likely to be, I’m getting off this drama rollercoaster.  I’m not entirely sure if my sexual meta-goal is validation or connection or some combo of both.

          Funny, Jeremy, that you mentioned Red-Pill dread game.  It’s closely related to the PUA technique of “negging” or a man giving a woman a back handed complement, or a dig that’s disguised with humor or mock concern.  Back in the day I was at a concert with friends and met a man.  He was cute and interesting, and the conversation was going real well until he made a comment about how on most women my hairstyle would look bad because it’s not very feminine, but it looked fine one me.  That killed it for me.

          It wasn’t until several months later that a male friend cracked up when I recounted this story for him and said, “Wow, he was trying to neg you!  And poorly at that!”  That was the first I ever heard of the PUA community out there.  After that I paid close attention to some of the conversations around me when I was out.  I came to the conclusion that negging worked well on insecure women prone to theatrics.  Much later after I read “Attached” I wondered if what negging does is trigger a woman with an anxious attachment style.  She then engages in protest behavior that can bee seen as pursuit behavior to the man.  It all feeds back into the PUA and larger manoshpere narrative that all women are crazy.  It’s a vicious  cycle 😉

          So I wonder too, if a person has a sexual meta-goal of validation, if that could indicate they may have an anxious attachment style.  When I took the self-assessment tests in “Attached” my dominant pattern was secure, but I also had many yes answers to the anxious questions.  In my past, I have had entanglements or episodes in relationships where anxious behaviors were triggered in me.  Usually these involved distancing behavior by my love interest.

          So yes, the creating insecurity and distance does not work for me, in fact it’s a huge turn off.

        27. Evan Marc Katz

          GWTF – we’re on the Love U More call waiting for you…. 🙂

        28. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFLow and Jeremy,


          So yes, the creating insecurity and distance does not work for me, in fact it’s a huge turn off.

          That actually works with me, although I get tired of it if done too much. It’s the validation goal I would have a problem meeting. Or maybe I’m overly sensitive to it, but the last guy I dated seemed to need constant validation. It was never enough, and it started to make me feel drained. In particular, sexually, he wanted me to tell him what to do, which I found to be a turn off.

        29. Jeremy

          GWTF, that is an interesting thought. As much  as I’d like to think of myself  as secure, I have a history of anxious attachments. I wonder how much a meta – goal of validation is related to insecure attachment style…

        30. Marika

          Thanks for your honesty, YAG.

          While I see a partial truth in what you say, you still are drawn to the entitled type comments in a confirmation-y bias kind of way. Not all women on this blog are entitled princesses.

          Just like not all men are relentlessly negative, critical and suspicious of women.

  7. 37

    @ Jeremy,

    Since you replied to my post about being an empath, I am going to respond from that framework. So I am writing this reply as a form of education for all the readers of these posts.

    First, being empathic (i.e. a person who is an empath) is not the same as being empathetic (a person with the capacity for empathy). The roots of the two words are the same, so it is easy to conflate them.

    Imagine if you had to initiate and had no idea whether he wanted you to or not…

    An empath would have a very good sense of whether initiating was wanted or not because they can feel the person’s actual feelings about them.

    you can not know the internal feelings of someone else, and that your intuitive cues may be wrong (though they hardly ever are).  That the feelings we imagine others feeling may be inaccurate or blown out of proportion.  

    For non-empaths, this statement could be true in various situations. But empaths are not using their imagination or intuition to deduce or try to understand how someone is feeling. An empath is clairsentient, which means they feel the feelings of others. It is a sixth sense ability.

    In other words, empaths accurately know what someone is feeling because they are actually feeling that person’s feelings. So I fundamentally disagree with your statement that it is not possible for one person to know the internal feelings of another.

    Here is an analogy just for illustration purposes. Imagine that most people did not have the sense of smell, but a small subset of people did have the sense of smell. A group of people are sitting in someone’s living room waiting for coffee. The people with no sense of smell have no way to know for sure whether the coffee is ready yet. They might accurately deduce that it is ready because of the time that has elapsed since their host went to make the coffee.

    However, the people with the sense of smell can smell when the coffee is ready. They know it is ready because they smell it ( i.e. they are not guessing based on intuition or past experience). So maybe one non-smell person is convinced the coffee is ready, but the person who can smell coffee can’t smell it, so they know for sure it is not ready.  A friendly argument ensues. Non-smell person: “What do you mean it is not ready because you can’t smell it? That makes no sense!” Smell person: “I don’t know. I just can sense that it is not ready and I can’t explain it to you.”

    How could you explain the sense of smell to someone who has no idea this ability exists, or who doesn’t believe in it because they themselves do not have this ability?

    Empaths are sixth sensory people living in a predominantly five sensory world – a world in which those who believe in or display extrasensory perception may be disbelieved, ridiculed, shunned, or even persecuted. Empaths are innately wired differently. We feel and sense the emotions of other people in a sixth sensory way.

    That means I can sometimes feel the emotions of someone I know and care about who lives 500 miles away from me, that I haven’t talked to for months. Out of the blue, I will feel their feelings of depression or hopelessness, call them, and sure enough, they are going through a major crisis in their life, and all the feelings I have been feeling related to them are accurate and verified by them.

    This is an example of clairsentience. All empaths are clairsentient (and more), but there are people who experience episodes of clairsentience from time to time who are not actually empaths in the sense of possessing most of the characteristic traits of an empath.

    For a more detailed explanation of the characteristics of empaths, please read The Basic Traits of Empaths and Empathy at https://www.thoughtco.com/traits-of-empaths-1724671, and 30 Traits of an Empath https://theknowing1.wordpress.com/2011/07/01/at-a-glance-30-traits-of-an-empath/

    @Claire 30.1 and @Rampiance 32: Thanks for your suggestions and support.

    1. 37.1

      Ah.  My apologies then, Elle, as we were obviously talking about two very different things.  I can’t comment on a mystical world-view where words like “clarisentience” have meaning – I admit that to be outside my realm of experience.   I can only comment on a world where words like “biases” and “heuristics” have meaning – to describe the same phenomena from a different perspective.  To use the heuristic of MBTI personality types, it is the different outlook of an INFJ versus an INTJ. :).

    2. 37.2


      Empaths are excellent BS detectors; except when they’re targeted by a sociopath. Sociopaths seek out empaths and if they’re intelligent enough, they can deceive even the smartest empath.

      1. 37.2.1

        @ KK,

        I’ve read the internet article that I believe you are basing your comments on. The person who wrote this article makes a lot of broad statements based on some personal experiences generalized to the entire category of empaths.

        I believe there are a lot of low value men in the world (sociopaths, con artists, addicts, players, etc.) and a lot of high value men (honest, kind, trustworthy, faithful, stable, etc.). Most empaths will cross paths with a variety of people from both categories. The degree to which low value men cause problems in an empath’s life or target them are probably much more related to variables like self-esteem, trauma or abuse in childhood, naivete vs. streetsmart, relationship history, and current life situation than solely their empath nature.

        Anyone, empath or not, can be deceived if they are not consciously seeking or receptive to the truth about someone. I personally believe that the truth is always there in front of you, if you are consciously seeking it and are open to it.

        But empaths, like anyone else, can choose not to look deeper, or can rationalize away the little niggling things that indicate there is a problem there, or get swept off their feet by a charming wolf in sheep’s clothing because they are lonely.

        The number one thing that every woman, empath or not, should be evaluating about a man is his character, and that takes time. All that glitters is not gold. All women, empath or not, should always do reality checks throughout the dating process.

        If you think you have found Mr. Wonderful after only two dates, slow down, and ask your intuition, your higher self, your empath self, your angels, or God or whatever you believe in, these two questions: What is the real truth about this man? Is he really a high value man? Then wait a week or two. One way or another, you’ll receive the answer, and it may not be the one you were hoping to hear.

        This is when your “plenty of fish in the ocean” mentality needs to kick in. Have character standards, and throw the ones that don’t meet your character standards back into the ocean. Period, end of story.

        As a more mature empath, I have learned not to waste one minute of my empathic nature feeling badly about unmasking, rejecting or dumping a low value man. They cannot manipulate me with their feelings or by hiding their feelings or true intent or mounting a charm offensive.

        Consequently, it’s been a long time since the sociopath kind of low value man has tried to form a relationship with me.

    3. 37.3

      For Jeremy ~~ I knew a male empath intimately.  (As an aside, an empath-empath r’ship is uber-intimate!) He was a pursuer and he could feel a wall against him from a woman or feel a path toward her . . . he didn’t have to initiate “in the dark”, so to speak, because he had “night vision” to give him an idea how to proceed with her.  He got a lot of action with prospects he chose.  Sometimes his “pursuit” was to let them pursue him.  Anyway, I wanted to clarify that as an empath, I can feel a wall of energy that says “leave me alone” before a guy’s body language has indicated anything, even when his words say the opposite.  It was the same for the male empath I knew.  It isn’t the specific horror you imagined it to be, which seemed like stumbling around in the dark until ramming your toes against the walls.

      For Elle ~~ 🙂

      1. 37.3.1

        Stumbling in the dark and ramming toes against the walls is how most initiators learn, Rampiance.  Most men have evolved to care more about their own desires than those of others, likely for this very reason.  Those like myself who have not evolved that way are more sensitive to rejection for this reason.


        You and Elle claim that mystical walls or energy draw or repel empathic people.  I see no evidence of that, but I don’t claim to know everything about the world.  My comments stand for men who are highly empathetic.  I have no experience with the type of empathy you describe.

    4. 37.4



      Thank you for saying all of this. Yes, yes and yes again. It’s what I would like to have said.

  8. 38

    Dating is hard. There’s rejection all around. You have to hang in there and keep going on. Don’t take first dates seriously. Take the 2nd and third dates more seriously.

  9. 39

    Tell you what, FG:

    Show your green eyed girl your posts on here. If she finds the coherent, logical and useful, then you’re golden.

  10. 40

    @Fleur in 35.1
    Fascinating. In both cases, you lament and criticize, but fail to address the primary concern, namely WHAT specific points you disagreed with, or what sentence set you off. In terms of argumentation, you instead set up strawmen.

    As to rambling, I’ll grant you lenghty, but hardly confused or inconsequential. “Gleeful hostility” appears to be the idiom of the day in lieu of argument because you have none?

    Most of what I have lent the ongoing discussion seeks to show a few deal-breakers, at least imho. They are partly subjective (others might not find fault or impasse with some of these cases), and partly objective (most men would take a pass). Never “all”, as that would be erroneous generalization. That is also why I throw in caveats.

    Suggestions? Some of those I tender may apply to you or not! Many tidbits address concerns or situations involving older women.

    @Marika (addressing YAG in 36.1)
    Nothing wrong with YAG’s EQ. He is forthcoming and direct, though you may not like what he has to say. Shooting himself in the foot? He’s not trying to date you.
    “…drowned in overwhelming hypocrisy, bitterness and one -sided accusations against the opposite sex” ?  Does that apply to other YAG comments under other articles?
    “… humility and self-reflection…”
    Meekness and abasing himself to below his own worth? Can’t see the point. In my own experience, people who clamor for another to be humble seem to reveal their weakness, their self-confidence issues, their lack of argument.

    Men tend to agree that women do not take responsibility and fail to be accountable. We do! Mostly. Or I do. I’m sure YAG stands by his opinions and writings, as do I with my own. I do not seek to troll, flame or annoy. But will not apologize for lending reality to a seemingly coddled world, in spite of the bluntness of said reality.
    If you can pinpoint what you object to, instead of vague, general statements, I’m sure either YAG or myself will comment with pleasure. Or is it that saying things you disagree with makes us unpalatable?

    @ Marika in 39
    How about telling us what you find incoherent, illogical, and unusable? 🙂  I’ll be happy to mansplain it to you (teasing). Unemotional, overly rational and factual may be better descriptors, but who knows. Others might disagree.

    1. 40.1

      FG, you wrote, “Meekness and abasing himself to below his own worth? Can’t see the point. In my own experience, people who clamor for another to be humble seem to reveal their weakness, their self-confidence issues, their lack of argument.”


      I am not naturally a humble person….but humility is the natural progression from intelligence to wisdom.  We create logical models for ourselves, and congratulate ourselves on our understanding.  We wonder how it is that other don’t see our sweet logic and agree with us.  We don’t account for what we fail to see.


      An example from the book “Black Swan:”  A statistician was asked the following question – a coin was flipped 99 times, and each time it landed on tails.  What is the chance that on the 100th flip it will land on tails?  His answer – 50%.  And he defended that answer with well-accepted statistical truths.  The same question was asked to a street hustler, and his reply was that the chances of the coin landing on tails on the 100th flip was at least 95%.  His reasoning?  The chances of a fair coin landing on tails 99 times out of 99 are astronomically low.  The odds are overwhelming that the coin is not fair.  Therefore all the statistical facts in the world won’t apply to this coin.  The world is not a casino, we don’t control for all variables.  And so all our sweet logic may prove wrong, if only there is a little fact we are failing to account for.


      That’s why I can read comments about mystical empathic energy and not heap ridicule on them, as I might have done in my younger days.  I don’t know everything.  It’s how I can understand, when Evan asks women for empathy for the male experience and many women fail to care, that these women are not necessarily uncaring, they just can’t see beyond their own models…..or even into their own reasoning.  The same applies to many men, myself often included.  How often do we accuse others of being emotional……as we write long diatribes that others are unlikely to read or agree with?  What, other than emotion, could possibly drive such behavior? 😉

      1. 40.1.1

        Humility : the quality of having a modest view of one’s own importance.

        Humility and ‘meekness’ are two different things. We could all benefit from recognising the relatively low importance of each of us (and certainly our opinions) in the grand scheme of things.

        1. Jeremy

          Thank you Marika 🙂  As someone who has been guilty of writing long esoteric posts, it sometimes gives perspective when someone else does the same.  It is much easier to see narcissism in others than in one’s self and to learn by negative example.  That can be the value of some posts, and I can understand why Evan allows them for that reason.  I’ll try not to do the same, keeping your comment, in mind.

  11. 41

    Sympathy for men sounds nice but isn’t sympathy a little condescending to men especially coming from single women who are looking.  Poor men and their inability to attract us.  There’s not enough decent men out there so therefore men lose at finding love but what about women.  I don’t get it.

  12. 42

    Jeremy, good post in 40.1

    Oftentimes, I find the words humble and modest are confused. Humility is an abasement close to a belittlement of self. I am neither humble nor arrogant, but I can see how others can perceive me as overwhelming. Or as great thinkers have put it, attack the idea, not the man.

    Wisdom comes in many forms. Your comment about logic models matches a thesis of mine (I wrote a book, once). We (meaning most of us) suffer from tunnel-vision and boil everything back down to elements we can comprehend or puzzle pieces we can fit within our own experience. Wisdom, in a (or one) sense, is to exteriorize and express. Sometimes to walk in another’s shoes, but not always.
    In that sense, we both understand that Marika and Fleur are put off by some of YAG’s comments or my own. Can you give me specifics that you grasped? Or are you, like I am, wondering what throws them?

    Having written A book usually means we may become repeat offenders. Your take on emotion and behavior is an interesting one. Yet, try a different theory: as an occasional writer, I welcome the opportunity to write. Expressing ideas is the goal.
    For instance, my earlier statistical exposé shows useful facts. Shocking? I think not! Confirming what has been discussed elsewhere on this blog? Likely. Boring to some? Sorry, but stats show us how to interpret a population, its opinions, reactions, etc. Stats teach us something about society and the world we live in. The close match of the 31% success rate (at the very center of this article) with the upper-end (above +0.5 Std.Dev.) of normal distribution could be meaningless. Or revealing!

    A diatribe is, by definition, an attack. I attack no one. My statements, views, anecdotes, may challenge some world-views, models, or beliefs.A rant, as Fleur put it, would be wild, impassioned vociferation.

    Marika writes she now has a relationship. Its continuance may be compromised by her current guy’s odd behavior or choices, or as she says in 33.1, ” red flags”, ” lack of empathy”, tales of “nasty / unthoughtful”. But he treats her well. Wishing her it all comes up roses. She suggested my dating life might use quality improvement. I’m not convinced I would be party to her current relationship. Tastes, colors.

    I’ve been dating for longer than some of our fellow posters have been alive (and that’s neither demeaning nor a put-down). This means I may possibly have encountered situations not experienced by others. Ex: last time I was in love, a few years back, my brilliant Russian doctor eventually fell out of love due to a cultural disconnect. Russians seem to be ALL in, or completely out. We (North Americans and western Europeans) tend to be more tentative / progressive. Conclusion? Interesting. Nothing more. Is there a lesson or suggestion therein? Maybe that cross-cultural differences in dating and relationships are not immediately seen nor understood? Is this relevant to dating? Yes. To the 69% rejects? No.

    1. 42.1

      Wisdom.  Yes, it can mean different things to different people.  My personality is such that I seek understanding – but not abstract understanding, rather understanding ways that I can make my own life better.  For example, I learned in the context of my marriage that when someone gets offended by what I’ve said (when I feel that what I’ve said is rational), the problem is less often my content and more often my context/technique.  If I disagree with my wife, I can tell her I disagree, look her in the eye, and affirm that I love her and respect her opinion nevertheless.  She may or may not come around to my way of thinking, but she won’t get offended.  Dialed in differently, this technique also works with others, keeping in mind that people remember how you made them feel far more than they remember what you’ve said.  People don’t like to feel stupid.  They like to feel that their opinions matter, even if they might be wrong.


      My father in law has written 5 books, each one exquisitely researched.  His statistics are impeccable.  Yet he believes that President Obama is an ISIS collaborator and that John Kerry is secretly an Islamic radical.  He believes this based on the way he interprets his statistics and fails to look at information that does not confirm his biases.  When I challenged him on his beliefs, he told me that he was the gold medal winner in the history dept at his university, years ago, and don’t I think that means anything?!  My reply (having also been a gold-medal winner in my own various departments) was that it does indeed mean something.  It means that of all the other students, he and I were most able to regurgitate the opinions of our professors in a form they were most willing to accept, leading them to judge us as superior regurgitators.  What it does not mean is that we are smarter.  Different ways to interpret statistics….

      1. 42.1.1

        Thanks Jeremy. Being spoken down to by certain older gentlemen is certainly part of the issue.

        The other part is this: the value of Evan’s advice is that he doesn’t ask anyone to follow advice he hasn’t followed himself. Find someone who makes you happy, accepts and loves you, & has similar relationship goals, with disregard for things like age, profession and religion.

        And he’s humble (but certainly not meek, no one would ever describe Evan as meek) enough to admit he’s made some bad dating choices and then learned from them and come out the other end in a happy marriage. That’s useful, wise, valuable advice.

        Dolling out advice you don’t follow yourself and with no basis to be actually giving advice (you’re not in a solid, committed, loving relationship yourself) is like being a minister who preaches purity and then visits prostitutes.

  13. 43

    One thing I noticed in my interactions with meeting men for the first time.

    If we have a pleasant conversation and if he asks for my number (often I notice when he feels especially nervous about striking up and carrying the conversation with me), I’ll give him my business card (or write out my number if out of cards) and he walks away happy.  Most of the time, nearly always, I never hear from him again, but the interaction left him satisfied.  This is my way of empathizing with initiators.

    I can pretty much tell when he will never call ~~ they are the most nervous and least socially suave.  But if getting my number makes their day ~~ cool.

    1. 43.1

      What a sweet post. Made me smile.

  14. 44

    Then there was the guy who wanted my number for getting together to make music (flute and guitar).  He asked if I had a boyfriend and I said I was taking a break at that time and that I wasn’t dating.  He never set up a time to get together that he didn’t cancel himself … for 2 or 3 years.  Yesterday he says yeah it’s his fault we never got together for music, but he saw me with other guys and feels resentful when women tell him they’re not dating and then he sees them with other guys.  I said, well, you can view it that way if you want to, but I have lots of friends that I go out with, but I haven’t been dating (using the definitions he seemed to be using).

    His degree of anger, resentment, and overall negativity sent up so many red flags, I don’t think music will work either.

  15. 45
    Yet Another Guy

    I decided to tell a woman who contacted me on a dating site that I was not interested today.  I usually just ignore women who contact me that fall into the inability to invoke primal urge bucket.   Well, I decided to write a gentle response thanking her for interest while recognizing that approaching a man is not something at which women are practiced. I told her that I did not believe that we were a good match.  Oh my, that was a mistake I will never repeat because she responded with a message asking me how I knew that we were not a good match. I was not prepared to say that I was not attracted to her. I just could not bring myself to write it, so I told her that nothing would to be gained from that discussion.   She was not unattractive facially. She was also in good shape, but short women are a complete turn off.   There are so many things that are awkward with a woman in the 4’10” to 5’3″ range that I just say, “no” to women under 5’4″ these days, and 5’4″ is still a little awkward when it comes to missionary sex.

    By the way, I just do not get why short women refuse to date height-appropriate men.  Short men are more faithful than guys my height.  A woman her height could date a 5’5″ or 5’6″ man, and he would be more than tall enough to allow her to wear 3″ heels.  I received an earful from a 5’8″ woman the other day about short women fishing in her pool of men.

    1. 45.1

      Oh God, YAG, what was the point of that rant?


      Do you have any idea how pompous it makes you sound?

      1. 45.1.1

        There îs nothing pompous about what he says.

        Women shame and encourage men to date ‘age-appropriate’ women. He just encourages women to date height-appropriate men, with the same vocabulary and arguments women use. ‘I feel protected by taller men’ is mirrored by him with ‘missionary with women around my height looks better’.

        It seems many women here get mad when men have and can afford to have standards regarding the women they date – even if tbose standards are less than half of what every plain menopausal Jane demands

        1. Theodora

          Anyway: this thread was comedic gold to read – particularly the hysterical reactions of Marika and a few others.

          (I know some doubt my identity, but I am truly a straight woman from Eastern Europe. It’s funny-tragic to see how some egotistical snowflakes with cognitive dissonance try to ostracize and finally ban perfectly reasonably men like YAG and Chance. Probably they will succeed, like they succeeded with two other interesting, intelligent posters -Tron Swanson and Buck25. Marika particularly reminds me of the Bolshevik commissars who used to send dissenters to jail în this part of the world în the name of humanity, decency and justice – code words for ‘Truth scares me’).

        2. Clare

          I really can’t speak for what middle-aged plain Janes “demand” – because I am 34 and not plain – and I doubt very much whether you can either.


          You’re right about one thing though – I do doubt your identity.  You’ll notice that none of the other women on this forum feel the need to say “oh no no, really, I really am a woman, promise…”

        3. Persephone

          “Menopausal Jane”? What a creepy guy you are, Theo.


          And, YAG, were you trying to be tongue-in-cheek with that height appropriate stuff? I hope so. Height is simply not appropriate for how to choose dates. Height is certainly not an indicator of how faithful on man would be.

      2. 45.1.2

        Point of order: if the topic is OLD rejection and getting to the first date, he is bang on! And detailing his reasons to refuse, although a rationalization of dating through height is a bit of a reach (pun). Maybe the gal only ever dated tall men before. Few men or women bother to be that specific, he does. Fair enough!

        I did see a 5’4″ gal specifically state in her profile that she preferred 6′ men. Sent her a quick message to state that no, dear, there is no size correlation, if you see what I mean.  And one 5’6″ gal who observed I was too short for her tastes (at 5’10”).

        Wonder who was pompous?

        1. Clare



          People are entitled to their preferences.


          Well-bred people usually quietly turn down people who don’t meet those preferences, without a great deal of fanfare. To me, someone who rambles on at length about how woefully misguided and below his standards the opposite sex is, is pompous. Perhaps you find his posts enlightening and charming! Have at it. Can’t say I have much in common with your other viewpoints either!

        2. Yet Another Guy


          I have several male friends I that I turned onto this blog who read it for entertainment.  All of these men are graduate degree holders. The most common conclusion the men that I turned onto this blog have is “What do these women have to offer a single man that would make him give up variety? What is in it for him?” I have to admit that I agree.  Women complain about men being the gatekeepers to relationships, but I have yet to see one woman elaborate on what a man gains from being in a committed relationship with her versus continuing to seek variety.  If women on this blog started to take an inventory of what a man gains that he would want by giving up variety for them, they may be on their way to landing the committed relationship that they desire.  As Even has mentioned many times, men look for sex and find love.  Sex is ridiculously easy to obtain today; therefore, a woman needs be prepared to offer a man something that other women are not giving him, and it needs to be significant.

        3. Jeremy

          YAG, I answered that question for you months ago.

        4. Rampiance

          @ Y.A.G.

          I TOTALLY agree with the notion that a prospective partner has to offer enough ~~ of whatever the desirable terms are ~~ in order to gain a committed relationship (however that is defined by the participants).  This isn’t restricted by sex, btw.  So many men have complained that I wouldn’t commit to their desired restrictions of some style of monogamy, but they didn’t offer me what would attract me to commit to them.

        5. Clare



          “I have several male friends I that I turned onto this blog who read it for entertainment.  All of these men are graduate degree holders. The most common conclusion the men that I turned onto this blog have is ‘What do these women have to offer a single man that would make him give up variety? What is in it for him?'”


          How nice for them. Can’t say I could care less. There are plenty of men in my sphere who seem to think there is a vast deal to be gained from being in a relationship with a wonderful woman. If I wanted a man who who wanted to commit to me and marry me, I could have it tomorrow.


          I also know several guys who love “variety” and for whom no amount of wonderfulness in one woman would be enough. Guess what? I leave them to it. I wouldn’t touch them with a ten-foot barge pole. I’m not here to convince you or them. You love variety and basking in your own self-importance? I wish you joy with it! I hope your single life, filled with a revolving door of slender, 5 years younger women is everything you dream of.

    2. 45.2


      Oh my! Where to begin. . .

      I’m a hair under 5’3″ and have gone out with men who have ranged in height from 5’4″ to 6’3″.

      Why do short women date tall men?  Duh!  It’s because they pursue us, LOL!  Because apparently they can figure out the mechanics of sex with a woman who’s shorter than them, or are flexible and/or creative so “awkwardness” isn’t a concern.

      Seriously YAG you never miss an opportunity to complain that women don’t ask men out and just sit back and play the passive role.  And now you state that short women “refuse” to date in their range?  We date who asks us out, and that includes a lot of men who happen to be tall.

      As for your silly warning that women should date short men because they’re more faithful than tall men, my 6 foot dad and 5’1″ mom were happily and faithfully married until death did they part.  Ditto for my 5’6″ grandpa and 5’4″ grandma.  It’s character that matters not height.  Unless maybe you were warning women that they shouldn’t date you since you are prone to cheat on them due to your height(?)

      I don’t have a height preference which has worked out well for me.  More men for me!  The 5’8″ lady whining about short women fishing in “her” pool of men should open her eyes to the wonderful  shorter men around her that it sounds like she is excluding, instead of trying to police who taller men ask out.

      As for you, no advice.  You’re hopeless.  Carry on!  LOL!!!

      1. 45.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        I appreciate that you are open to men of all heights. I can tell you without reservation that 75% of the women on Match have 5’10” listed as the shortest height for man.  That is an inch above average male height in the United States.

        I am not making up the shorter men are more faithful than taller men claim.  That is a well-studied phenomenon.  As Stacy mentioned, a man is only as faithful as his options.  Whether you choose to accept that reality is up to you.  If given the opportunity at the right time, most men will cheat.  They may regret doing so afterwards, but men are polygamous by nature. We are not living with the same set of morals to which our grandparents or even our parents where bound.  Women were not liberated in those generations.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG & FG,

          YAG asked why short women date tall men, like he was sincerely confused.  I answered.  Nothing more, nothing less.

          YAG is free to set any dating parameters he wants.   Just like women who list 5’10” as their minimum height for men.  If it limits their options, that’s their choice.  As long as they’re content with their options.


          “Bolshevik commissars”

          Oh geez!  My family is from Eastern Europe.  They don’t talk like this. LOL!!!


  16. 46
    Yet Another Guy

    The point of the rant was that I do not believe that I have actively rejected a woman in my life. It was not a pleasant experience.  I am going back to ignoring woman who contact me that I do not desire to meet.

    As far as to being pompous, have you ever examined the rejection list that the average woman has for a man?  We are talking about ridiculously trivial stuff.

    I added the bit about women and height-appropriate men because women are always complaining about men not seeking age-appropriate women.  If a woman is  shorter than 5’7″ or 5’8″, so does not need a man my height or taller.  She desires a man my height or taller.  Older men desire younger women.  Want does make either desire a good choice.  Just as their are advantages to dating age-appropriate women.  There are advantages to dating height-appropriate men.

  17. 47


    If you’re interested in men like those you mentioned, go for your life, they’re all yours.

    Give Evan some credit, btw, this is his blog, not mine. If he felt Buck and Tron (& you forgot to mention Stacy) in anyway contributed positively & meaningfully to this site, he wouldn’t have asked them not to post.

    If you’re into their version of ‘the truth’, visit any mgtow site and knock yourself out reading about how women are only good for one thing & hit the wall after 30. It’s clearly your type of thing. Good luck to you.

    1. 47.1

      You supported the man-hating braindead vile despicable Stacy2 until the very end în the name of fighting against Patriarchy or something, and only opportunistically slowly turned against her after she accused Evan of being an autistic asshole on his own blog. It seems you saw something ‘vulnerable’ în that vile moron în the name of sisterhood. Never ever Tron or Buck insulted the host blogger or other posters în the manner she did. Spare me your self-righteous diatribes. Too much hypocrisy to take (ironically, from someone who always accuses others of hypocrisy).

      1. 47.1.1

        Completely untrue Theodora. I disagreed with Stacy2 many, many times. A lot more times than I agreed with her. Check your facts, hon.

    2. 47.2
      Tron Swanson


      Evan asked me to leave because I’m not seeking a relationship, and most of his posts are about getting relationships. I don’t think it had anything to do with me not being positive or meaningful.

      And now back to your regularly-scheduled Tron-free comments.

      1. 47.2.1
        Evan Marc Katz


        That is not true, nor fair. I didn’t ask you to leave because you’re not seeking a relationship. Many people are not seeking relationships and read here. The reason I encouraged you to stop posting was because you were relentlessly negative about women and relationships. And since this is, in general, a site for women who want to find love, your angry, borderline misogynist screeds were becoming more hurtful than helpful. It’s not that you had nothing of value to say; it’s that you couldn’t help making everyone around you feel bad. Thus, your criticism ceased being constructive and ultimately became destructive. There aren’t many people who are discouraged from posting, but the common thread for all of them is a relentless negativity – whether it’s about dating, the opposite sex or yours truly. They don’t deserve a home on my website.

        1. Tron Swanson

          Wow, I’m really surprised. I could have sworn that you asked me to stop posting because of the relationship angle. I personally don’t think that I came off as “angry” or “negative” at all–I certainly don’t feel that way.

          Anyway, thanks for letting me post as long as you did. I’ve been continuing to read your site–and the comments–because I’m seeking sex (albeit on a very low-key level), and the more I understand women, the easier it is to get.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          That’s fine if you use your powers for selfish purposes. The issue here is that this is a site that is PRO-WOMEN and PRO-RELATIONSHIPS. That doesn’t meant I’m ANTI-MEN or ANTI-SINGLEHOOD, but rather, I’m helping single women who want to find love to achieve their goals. So every time you post your anti-woman/anti-relationship stance, it’s a dig at all the women here who are looking for more. No, it’s not your obligation to want what they want, but on this site, it’s your obligation to at least be sympathetic to their cause. Otherwise, you’re the equivalent of an atheist, trolling a site for Christians.

        3. McLovin

          My ears were burning.


          Miss you, Evan. <3

  18. 48

    @Jeremy 42.1
    Remembering the 1st time I ever heard Kansas with their “And if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don’t know”, I told myself back then to always hang on to that line. There was truth in it! 🙂 Not directed at you, but rather at myself.

    Your statements ring true, but context also plays a role. In interpersonal relationships, I fully agree with you. In a blog commentary, the idea is to convey (hopefully pertinent) meaning and not to run around in circles. I deal in large volumes of information, so I am overly detailed and often nuanced. Writing a comment does not always allow the inclusion of the level of analytical nuance I favor. Or my brand of humor may not be yours. I find certain things ironic. Seems some people find them offensive.

    As to relationships, life is strange, and so are people. Ever befriended a couple who have been together for a long time, seem happy, you see and understand their modus operandi, but it simply would not work for you? Either you wouldn’t put up with what you see as the female half’s BS, or you wonder as to how she endures the guy’s special brand of nonsense.

    Is YAG trying to sell anyone on anything, or is he exposing his views and and what works or no longer works for him and why? Is he, by that same token, giving relationship advice? In that same vein, am I? It might be more accurate to state that I study the field, tell stories, correlate to fact when available. A chronicler, of sorts. 

    Based on Marika’s views (in 42.1.1) , you can ONLY express opinion IF and ONLY IF you are in a stable, long-term, committed relationship. I see it as distortion of reality (see next paragraph). Dating leads to relationship, but dating someone does not instantly a relationship make. Although some essential components are (allegedly? Supposedly? But not always) present.

    Many relationships end due to divergent objectives, or circumstances such as life pressures. That could be the fault of one party, or it is happenstance. Is that a personal failure?
    Taking Marika’s logic to its natural extreme, we might find a happy male or female half of a single. lifelong enduring success, and only those people might comment on relationships. That would hardly account for the wild diversity we find out there. Many lessons tendered by the “enduring success” could be extremely useful, but such advice could just as well be unhelpful, or even disastrous, when other people are thrown into the couple mix.
    We can derive certain rules. And generalize behavior to be applicable in all cases. Other bits, even your most cherished approach, are fine in your specific relationships and its two participants, but may not work. My parents had a 65 year “thing” (5 dating/engagement, 60 marriage)  before my mom’s passing. She had a rational mechanism that I have seen in few women, if  ever: when confronted with a situation, she would have a short burst initial emotional reaction, quickly recuperated by a rational approach. Kind of like a cat twisting and landing on its feet. Very pragmatic, highly intelligent, rooted in common sense. Were they happy as clams? They were mostly happy.
    What is the metric for clam happiness? Low expectations? Hmmmm

    1. 48.1

      I happen to disagree with the notion that being in a successful relationship is necessarily a factor in one’s ability to give good advice (though I generally agree with much of Marika’s other writing).  I agree with your take on the matter, frankly.


      Happiness, now that depends on 2 things (according to modern psychology): the intersection of expectation and perception.  If we are not happy we have 2 choices – lower our expectations or perceive our reality differently.  But who wants to lower their expectations?  Our intuitive minds are wired to believe (wrongly) that lowering our expectations will make us unhappy.  And re-wiring our perceptions (eg. through cognitive behavioral therapy) is ever so much work.  Much easier to externalize the blame…


      YAG, for example, often complains that he is an attractive guy who takes good care of himself, yet has a hard time finding a woman in his desired age-range who does the same.  One solution is to continue looking for a unicorn.  Another would be for him to stop going to the gym.  As his own weight increases, his belief in the sort of partner he deserves will decrease, and his chances of finding a match will increase.  Now, how likely would he (or anyone) be to take that advice (or equivalent advice that does not involve increasing fats, and hence reducing free testosterone)?


      Given that dating advice is not a protected act, any of us can render our opinion without qualifications.  I know that none of my degrees are in psychology, yet here I am 🙂  Yet we must consider our goals in communication – do we seek to be the keepers of some secret truth, or do we seek to communicate with others?  If the former, we can proclaim our truths from a mountaintop and let the wise ones hear us while the others continue to worship their golden calfs.   But if we seek to communicate with others we must understand that people seek to be heard and valued.  That we can’t trounce their opinions with our own.  That there is no value in dissecting their opinions, down to their chosen vocabulary and syntax – that will only get people’s backs up.  Realize that there is some value in the opinions of everyone, but that most people will eventually tire of debate if they feel attacked, and that will rob us of the opportunity to learn from them.


      “Who is wise?  The one who learns from every person.”

    2. 48.2
      Yet Another Guy


      YAG, for example, often complains that he is an attractive guy who takes good care of himself, yet has a hard time finding a woman in his desired age-range who does the same.

      I have never complained about being unable to find a woman in my desired age range who takes care of herself.  I mentioned that I have experienced overly plump women who do not quite grasp that they lead non-compatible lifestyles.  I do not see myself as motivation for a woman to take better care of her health.  That motivation has to be intrinsic. How is that any different than a fit woman turning away fat guys?  Women have a code phrase for fat guys need not apply in their profiles; namely, “active lifestyle.”

  19. 49

    Theodora (East Euro) waded in, and was instantly rebuked by our friend Marika. Remembering my former gf the Russian doctor, I understand Theodora. Her attitudes are healthy (imo) and reflect her culture. Generalization: they view North American and Western Euro women’s attitudes as self-defeating, and even “crazy” (I’m quoting, not affirming). Elsewhere on Evan’s blog, I mentioned a convo between “Russian doctor” and her Georgian friend, also high-caliber, hily intelligent, highly educated. I’m sure some participants would have bristled at the tenor of their “why men are better than women”, but I was not the instigator, I just listened. Their exchange had nothing to do with “feelings” and relied on rational argument and construction. Enough said!

    From the former East German border going East, people will (in my understanding) issue brutal, blunt, direct truth, as they perceive it! If they err, they expect correction. Fat is fat. Dumb is dumb. Etc. We admittedly used to be more diplomatic than their approach, but are now in “tiptoe through the tulips” territory. While at first shocking, the East Euro mentality becomes refreshing to a point: you know where you stand and what people think. It is neither mean nor cruel in intent, just disconcerting. Not politically correct in the slightest.

    Being forewarned, spend an afternoon with 2-3 of these women over tea, and see if you feel like crying after 5-10 minutes. It may be a cultural eye-opener.

    On vacation abroad and crossed paths with a stunning, tall, buxom Russian gal from Moscow. Her English, though imperfect, was already an indication of sorts. Reflects education, thus, not the bottom of the barrel. I was then as yet unaware of Russian bluntness. Having flirted a bit, I jokingly said that she might help me work on my Russian. The whiplash comeback? Considering how little I knew (true, a handul of words picked up from movies, menus, TV), it would be  pointless to even try! Still managed a pleasant date, though!

    1. 49.1


      There is a reason why several women and men on this blog have questioned whether Theodora/Theo is truly a woman on this blog.  Her/His language usage and positions taken are universally masculine.  S/He has made laughably stereotypical comments that are manosphere talking points crossed with western style anti-communist tropes, and red-pill male fantasies of Eastern European counties filled with thin, beautiful, submissive women.  One Theo(dora) comment literally went, “In my country we women are all thin and pretty.”

      I was raised by some, as you say, blunt speaking Eastern European women who fled the Nazis and communists around WW2.  Later the American continent of our family grew when many cousins immigrated after the fall of the Soviet Union.  They are tough, resilient women who know how to figure out what people in authority want to hear while holding their feelings close to the vest.  Their survival depended upon it.  As for the bluntness, it’s usually motivated by love.  I can’t tell you the number of times a friend of mine’s eyes bugged out when they heard my Aunt or Grandma say to me, “You look terrible!  Those pants make your rear end look huge!”  As I was changing my outfit I would tell my friends, “Yes it’s harsh, but they make sure I never leave the house looking less than my best.”  Theo(dora) just flings stereotype based insults.

      Their beliefs and feelings about men, gender roles, and relationships are so much more varied and nuanced than the flat, one-dimensional picture Theo(dora) presents.  Some of them run their homes, their families, and their marriages.  Others are more quiet and   gentle.  Some love American and Western European men whom they consider more progressive and flexible.  Others, mostly the older ladies, want to go back to a time when “men were men.”  Fun fact:  Stacy2 is from an Eastern European country.  I don’t doubt for a moment either her gender or her country of origin.  Her persona rings true and is consistent with some of the women in my family.

      1. 49.1.1

        What you say rings true from my experience living and working in Poland (and travelling all throughout Eastern Europe), GWTF. The women I met were amazing go-getters. Resilient, educated, impressive, goal oriented. And yes, to my mind, quite blunt. Definitely not submissive!! If men think they will find gorgeous, submissive women who will throw themselves at them all hanging around Eastern Europe, I have to say, I didn’t see that at all.

        I would say Aussie women are more ‘submissive’ (at least in terms of being easygoing and not as direct or argumentative) than any Eastern European woman I’ve ever met. Just my experience.

        Theodora seems to have an agenda. She’s not the only one though. There seem to be a few people on here playing some role of being extreme caricatures of a certain type of person. Weird.

        People give Evan a hard time for asking a couple of the worst offenders not to post. I think he’s actually very liberal in his tolerance of some very odd and unhelpful contributions.

        1. GoWiththeFlow


          I’ve been reading Evan’s blog for ~4 years.  In that time, Theodora is the only commenter who’s identity has been questioned, and quite consistently at that.

          That’s amazing that you lived and worked in Poland.  The huge majority of my family is from Poland, although some are ethnic Germans.  There is also a branch of the family in Russia.

          I’ll never forget how excited my Jaja was when he finally obtained a visa to travel to Poland and Russia back in the 1980’s and got to spend time with family members.  His daughter, my Aunt, has the photos from that trip and is planning on turning them into a video for everyone.  I’m so excited to show it to my kids.

          My brother has an audio recording of our great-aunt, made a year before she died.  She was a teenager when her family fled western Poland months before Germany and Russian invaded and partitioned the country in 1939.  They literally locked the house, gave the keys to a neighbor and left with only what they could carry in suitcases.  Her seethe, the man who became her husband, was left behind.  Three weeks after the German invasion there was knock on his door and he was forcibly conscripted into the German army because he had a German last name.  He escaped from his unit, joined the resistance, and eventually made his way down to Italy where he joined up with the Polish Free Forces under allied command.  You are correct, they are resilient, industrious people!

          But FG down below thinks I need to be educated on how hard their lives were.  BIG EYE ROLL HERE!


        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Spell check fail:  Sweetheart, not seethe. . .

        3. FG

          Thank yo uFlow for the  history lesson, and when my grandma was born, there were no airplanes, and the Wright Bros hadn’t give not a whack, yet! The relevance of which is… nil! 🙂

          My point, which seemingly escaped you, was that all your older family members knew the havocs of that region at a moment in time (not denigrating their woes, challenges or suffering, btw). And got out before later chapters. Whereas the women of which I spoke were around for those, struggled with same, and even still ahd skin in the game.

          As to older peopel in those situations, they tend to batten down the hatches and not go forth in the world all that much, as their “time” is behind them. My dad, for instance, is not a primary source, as he gets his info and impressiosn 2nd hand. tends to be an inaccurate mishmash of hearsay, seen through  a slightly distorted lens.

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          No FG, you don’t get it.  (And you also forget I have cousins who immigrated to the west in their early 20s after communism fell in the 1990’s) The communist regimes were just one more in a long line of brutal authoritarian regimes that Eastern Europeans have lived under over hundreds of years.

          The coping/survival mechanism of telling people, especially those in authority, what they want to hear while holding your true thoughts and feelings close in is an adaptive skill that has been used for several generations.

      2. 49.1.2

        “More progressive and flexible” can be great. It can also mean completely subjugated / indoctrinated.
        Here’s the tack I got from non-Americanized East Euro women: they do what they do. Feminism is BS. And the West is going to Hell unless things change. The 90s (in Russia, and a number but not all surrounding countries) were hard. Really hard. As in “men died in droves” kind of hard.
        Many of those people lived (or should we say somehow survived?) the socialist era. They can spot Cultural Marxism. Unless the precious snowflakes, they know where it leads. Never forget that Nazi IS socialism. And Stalinism another branch of the same ideology. Best avoided.
        I simply can’t stand the feverish pitch bitching and moaning, plus the hypersensitive “I feel I’ve been triggered”. It brings to mind a rather sarcastic and pre-PC meme of a kid in a tantrum and a parent reacting with “Want to scream and cry?” Whack! “Now you can scream and cry for something real!”
        Like I said, East Euro males 35-60 would simply shrug and not bother.
        If that individual were in fact a male, I would feel sorry for him. For what little I’ve read, quirte plausible as a female, though obviously not in agreement with you. FYI, not do I believe your set of beliefs would fit well with your forebears, but that is conjectural.
        Fun Fact: Stacy2 was from out there? Really> I thought she was Black and from some Caribbean country! Wow. Got that one wrong.

        1. KK

          “Fun Fact: Stacy2 was from out there? Really> I thought she was Black and from some Caribbean country! Wow. Got that one wrong”.

          Stacy2 said she was black and grew up in another country; don’t recall her specifying where.

        2. FG

          My assumption of black was from attitudes I seemed to recognize. I thought she had eventually “revealed” that as fact. But a logn time ago already.

          Black and  East European sounds improbable. Not impossible, but improbable.

          Her challenges in meeting a perm / “father of her kids” bf were compounded. Attitude, a reluctance for the majority to embark into interracial fatherhood (fact, not fiction: men will date interracially but few cross into permanent territory), 2 master’s degrees (odd, as one would usually go M.Sc to PhD, but whatever),, and stellar income that made her look down on anyone else. Enough barriers w/o adding to a difficult mix 🙂

        3. GoWiththeFlow


          I believe it is Stacy (no 2) who is Caribbean.  Stacy2 mentioned a few times she was from Eastern Europe and it always made a light bulb go off in my head because once I knew that, some of what she said made sense from a cultural prospective.

          For instance, Stacy2 said she was focusing on high status divorced men in their 40s who wanted a child/children.  That her plan was to flatter them, be pleasant, flexible, and feed their ego.  Of course there was a collective scream from the male and a lot of the female commenters when she shared this.  She was slammed as being dishonest and mercenary.  Her come back was if the guy was getting what he wanted what was the big deal.

          In the last few days, I noticed on the side column where recent comments are posted, that Evan had made what looked like a snappy reply to someone on an older blog post.  So of course I had to see that 😉  Anyways, the poster Evan replied to was extolling the virtues of Ukrainian women and he said this:

          “Now if you go to dating sites in Ukraine. . . the profiles read much differently…most all of them…above 90% say things like this…” I wan to look beautiful for my husband” ” I want to take care of my family and make a cosy home” “I want to give my love and affection to him ” I want to cook tasty meals and enjoy spending time with my man” and many more upbeat and supportive comments….but the one most often listed part of a Ukrainian woman’s dating profile will say something like this..” I am a woman and I need a man to be a man so I can be weak in his arms” and it’s true… “

          Ironic since I had just commented to FG on Theo(dora) that my EE women family members “. . . are tough, resilient women who know how to figure out what people in authority want to hear while holding their feelings close to the vest.  Their survival depended upon it.”

          I think a lot of Western women (and maybe some men) would look at Stacy2’s husband hunting plan and what Ukrainian women seeking Western men write on OLD profile and say “Wow they’re really playing the guys for chumps!”  And maybe some are.  But probably, the majority of them are just dispassionately drawing up a plan for what they want and how to get it.  And when it comes to relationships, a big part of that is figuring out what the other side wants and then accepting that and being prepared to give it to them.  For the women, within that framework, there is still room for love, respect, and affection.  So they don’t consider this plan a horrible thing.  To them it’s logical, both people are getting what they want.


  20. 50

    Truth to be told, what you call ‘Red pillers’ in the Anglosphere, we would simply call ‘men and women’ here. That’s why I never felt insulted as a woman when I read manosphere/ Red Pill/ MRA blogs. I mostly consider them common sense.

    Men accused of ‘misogyny’ here would be considered just average Joes, even on the Beta side, in my part of the world.

    Take the much maligned YAG, for example. A fit man with a great job in his mid 50s bashed incessantly because he wants to date non-obese women 5 years younger. And he has to explain himself for his preferences. WTH? Why?



    1. 50.1


      You said, ‘Take the much maligned YAG, for example. A fit man with a great job in his mid 50s bashed incessantly because he wants to date non-obese women 5 years younger.’

      LITERALLY no one has done this on this blog. You just completely made that up.

      1. 50.1.1


        And YAG is hardly “much maligned.”  He gets a lot of eye rolls though.


  21. 51

    I have met Eastern Euro women with impressive resumes, and key positions (institutions, R&D, etc.). Thought it may be worth mentioning: East Euro women are not oppressed, not held back. Just in case…

    Having taken a look at Red Pill and MGTOW, there is certainly a number of layers of truth. And some quite extraneous / irrelevant / nonsensical or cognitive dissonance bits. Again a case of finding the wheat and discardign the chaff.

    There was a tidal wave of criticism regarding Cassie Jaye’s Red Pill movie last year, and still a few echoes this year. Before issuing condemnation, watching the movie (w/o covering your ears and making infantile noises) would be sensible.  One university professor was on the news in Canada almost in tears while spewing nonsense. Didn’t sound like she had watched the movie.

    And we just had the Google firing of Damore. And beofre  anyone weighs in with HEARSAY, read his memo.

    1. 51.1

      No, we are not oppressed or held back, LOL. Ironically, in spite of the reputation of mail order brides or hookers, my impression from my travels is that on average the Eastern Euro woman is more educated than her Western counterpart. A lot of women in STEM and entrepreneurs, plus in humanities, more classic, solid education as opposed to Women’s Studies or whatever studies (mostly grievance porn without any academic value).

      I can say the same about the Asian women I met. You can be educated without the feminist baggage.

      I read Damore’s memo. Again: common sense. He was too good for Goolag anyway.

      1. 51.1.1

        Hey FG,

        Here is a great example of how Theo(dora)’s comments are full of manoshere talking points:

        “A lot of women in STEM and entrepreneurs, plus in humanities, more classic, solid education as opposed to Women’s Studies or whatever studies (mostly grievance porn without any academic value).”

        Reality check:  Very few Americans, men or women, get degrees in Women’s Studies.  Very few colleges and universities even offer degrees in Women’s Studies.  In the U.S., nursing, education, and social work degree programs are dominated by women, and they prepare them for actual well paying jobs.

        “grievance porn”

        LOL!!! Straight off of the top red-pill sites.

        1. FG

          Social studies / gender studies / snowflake-trigger training center? You too can go SJW and be unemployed  / unemployable for life.

          Gender studies? Nobody offers that… Oh wait, close to 300 undergrad programs in US. Almost 10% of total U campuses.

          Truth is U campuses need a good cleanup. Education and its guidelines, the education programs, are profoundly ill.

          Back on quotes: Russian and many East Euro countries still have cultural values. They know art, classical music, ballet, opera, theater, literature, and not just from hearsay, they actually read the books. A few such people are kicking around North America, and the rest listen to Miley Cyrus, or worship Madonna. Whatever!

          I know several female engineers and PhDs from Russia. I’ve read their work, talked to them at conventions and events. Why is it that I have NO complaints about their work or their style? That is an interesting point, no? They don’t complain, nor demonstrate. I keep thinking people clamoring for equality do so because they really are subpar.

        2. GoWiththeFlow


          You just made my point:  90% of Universities DO NOT offer degrees in women’s studies.  It would be interesting to add up the total enrollment at the 10% of Us that do and the 90% that don’t.  I would bet that the number of students enrolled in universities without women’s studies degrees is greater than 90% since it’s small, private schools that have most of the WS degree programs.

          “Russian and many East Euro countries still have cultural values. They know art, classical music, ballet, opera, theater, literature, and not just from hearsay, they actually read the books. A few such people are kicking around North America, and the rest listen to Miley Cyrus, or worship Madonna. Whatever!”

          Typical cultural snobbery and resentment of Americans. “But, but, but we know ballet!  We’re better than you!”  Europe and Eastern European countries are free to stop consuming American pop culture at any time they like. The fact is, 99.9% of life is work, paying the bills, rising children, maintaining a house and what not.  Not discussing art and literature.

          For all the art in Russia, their population is declining, they have more children being raised in institutions on a per capital basis than they did after WW2, alcoholism is rampant, their economic output is dwarfed by that of California, and they have slid back from a fledgling democracy to a violent authoritarian regime.  As you said, their lives are truly hard.  Maybe they should spend more time protesting and less time at the ballet and opera to try and change that?

          “I know several female engineers and PhDs from Russia. I’ve read their work, talked to them at conventions and events. Why is it that I have NO complaints about their work or their style? That is an interesting point, no? They don’t complain, nor demonstrate. I keep thinking people clamoring for equality do so because they really are subpar.”

          FG, they don’t complain to you.  They very well may go home and complain about you.  It’s a survival mechanism.  You keep your true thoughts and feelings to yourself.  As for your EE women friends who tell you that feminism is a crock, they may, A)  just be telling you want you want to hear B) rejecting the label while taking advantage of the gains women who went before them made, ala the female news anchors at Fox News.

  22. 52

    I did not state I agreed with all of YAG’s comments or views. Just that I could see his point.
    It goes w/o saying that you would not share my viewpoints , but I doubt you would have the experience to support them. Or a penchant for denying fact. Opposed to normal-distribution, are you? 🙂 That being said…

    We can assume posters on E van’s blog range from average to superior. Below average likely makes contribution difficult (you must type / write, have a computer, and an internet connection, combined in active rather than passive mode). Not seeking to undermine or demean anyone. The point is someone will be average, slightly above average or greatly above average, as dictated by wide-sampling in an equal-probability distribution (see Post 34).

    In a context of rejection, 1st dates, and getting to 2nd date, posters wade in with beauty / handsomeness / attractiveness, height (or lack thereof), writing proficiency for OLD, SMV, disclosure (though it was not stated as such), clear problems (and I’ve issued ample personally subjective vs a theoretical other’s possible acceptance), and a few readjustments along the way. We’ve heard about “being used for sex” and “pump and dump”, which raises an eyebrow as I find sex to be of mutual benefit. If not, why bother? I’ve indicated at least one case where there was no post-coital tomorrow for cause.

    Do they / you / I know where we stand? 🙂  Where you in terms of IQ? Assets? Age? Looks? Life experience?
    Did you have life objectives? Are you pursuing them, or did you achieve some of your goals? Do you have a career or a job? Are you interesting and/or particular in some way? Set aside the much vaunted “we’re all unique” and try to objectively determine if you really are, and whether you can lend any proof to that assertion. Be aware that what you think of fun or desirable may be perplexing to others. For instance, you might make national news for your pumpkin growing talents and prize pumpkin over 1,000 or 1,500 pounds. Errrrr, ok! Great! Talk to you later!?! STOP! Not trying to ridicule anyone. Merely stating on a 1-10 scale of my interests, that scores a minus 5.

    Ask yourself this question: without going overboard on an impossible wish-list, can you roughly define what you (whether male or female) are looking for? Can you state what works for you or not? Capable of stating what really bugs you? And analyze it? Able to project to the future?

    People seem to be lost in a haze, and many remain incapable of voicing their need / want, but they’ll know it when they see it! As though some miraculous power will grant complete spontaneous understanding and full disclosure. Quest for self-understanding? At 20? OK. 30? So-so! Older? Smell the coffee. Get with the program!

    You found someone and they make you happy (and vice-versa)? Terrific! Can’t argue with that!

    Still looking? Warning: the following is not meant to charm posters in dating me, nor does it reflect my attitude from within (or at the edge) of a relationship. A good-looking lady, 2-3 years my senior, a professional (by her own take) messaged me on OLD. She said I made her feel like a 2nd-rate citizen and maybe even mentally ill. A profile is meant to attract, but also repel improper candidates. Why was she taken aback? Mentioned elsewhere: “have a minimum $150K net worth”, Unmentioned: an accumulating pension counts! So she’s a professional and failed to accumulate reasonable assets throughout her life? Or is so financially confused as to not know the meaning of net worth?
    As to “mentally ill”, I do state “no psycho cases eternally buried under the wreckage of failed relationships, of too often repeated bad choices, or after-effects of unpleasant experiences. No self-worth issues. I can commiserate, but have no obligation nor interest to pick up the pieces of other people’s past. Fine if you have consulted or completed therapy.”

    Brutal? Possibly! But also realistic. I’m not a shrink looking for patients. I’m looking to date and maybe build a future together with the person I’m going to meet. Remember Crazy People (1990), where a marketing executive tries truth? I don’t believe in selling with lies. Shoddy construction! Nor do I bellieve in overpackaging! And I am not willing to spend 3 months in basic discovery. Though a lifetime (or what’s left of it) for extended discovery and new experiences together is quite appealing.

    Is a pretty, kind, average woman of 50-58 a good match for me? My question: “what makes her interesting?” Again, there is nothing wrong w average, but does that create a good fit (for me)? Not really. A full overlap in interests or life history? Impossible! Would you (insert Claire / Marika. Fleur or other) WISH to date an average guy? Average looks, median income, 100 IQ, main interest TV football (or similar)? Nothing wrong with that guy! For one of you, he may be a quite decent fit. But do ask yourself the question.

    On a different note, are you aware that the average sexual encounter is 8-12 minutes of foreplay + 5-7 minutes of coitus? Is that your regular menu? Sorry to go TMI, but while that program is occasionally OK, I’m looking for gastronomy, not just a snack! Have your circumstances allowed you to spend 12-16 hours in lovemaking? Not to be confused w constant drilling (apologies for the slightly vulgar imagery), but an ongoing smorgasbord over that time? Does that disturb or bother you?  And yes, it is best done with a partner as opposed to a “ships go bump in the night” encounter.

    I might keep going about my hopes / requirements 🙂  I know they DO exist, as I have come across them at various times. Reasons for exit? Various. Quite another story.

    We hear about rejection due to sexual innuendo. Now, there are cultural or messaging faux-pas, but there is also room for teasing, and humor does include said sexual innuendo. Risky business. But if a woman 45-58 (see? Just dropped the bar on age lol) is not capable of good-humored,  playful interaction done tastefully, case closed. Are you saying you had a strict, highly inhibited very religiosu upbringing that stifles you in that department? Sigh! I commiserate, but if you have not overcome this at “our” age, I doubt I can help, and we will not be well matched.

    Already discussed: no flashing signs on forehead revealing of serious issues. Try this one: gal smokes 3 joints every night. That goes well beyond “420 friendly”, which she had mentioned in pre-date convo. Does this justify rejection in your book? Is that now wee(d) bit heavy?

    Was I spewing gleeful hostility herein? I think not! Pleasantness and agreeableness? Probably not! A reasonably decent recap of what we’ve been covering? I hope so!

    1. 52.1



      “It goes w/o saying that you would not share my viewpoints , but I doubt you would have the experience to support them. Or a penchant for denying fact. Opposed to normal-distribution, are you?”


      Support what? What makes you think I have a penchant for denying facts or am opposed to normal distribution?


      As for the rest of your post, God almighty.

    2. 52.2

      After my last conversation with my paranoid father in law, I resolved to never again talk about anything other than family with him.  Engaging him in meaningful conversation was useless because despite his stated willingness to debate, his actual willingness was only to convince, to display the brilliance of his arguments.  To him, a smart man was one who agreed with him; a stupid man was one who did not.  “Convince me,” he said, “and I will change my views.”  But convincing him was impossible, because in spite of his insistence to the contrary, he was dominated by emotion, not rationality.  As are we all.  I had spent hours refuting him point by point, and in the end had made  no lasting impression.  I was wasting my time.


      FG, one final idea for you – it’s something I learned back in university.  Whenever I thought that an exam question was a trick question that only I would understand, that only I had the intelligence and insight to pick up, that no one else would get – 9 times out of 10 I’d be wrong.

      1. 52.3.1

        It was an attempt at recap / review! 😉

    3. 52.4

      No, I agree that I wouldn’t want average as you describe it, but I am willing to accept average in some areas (height, math ability, handyman skills, baldness) for excellent in other areas (humor, kindness, integrity).

      Gleeful hostility means criticizing something unnecessarily harshly to prove a point, not being mindful of your audience.   (Your stating that for you a short woman doesn’t work in the missionary position doesn’t come under that category, but describing a menopausal woman’s skin as crinkled wrapping paper does. )

      1. 52.4.1

        I made no such comment about height and missionary. Must have been YAG. I wrote wrinkled, but granted, they are close 🙂

        Integrity? yes. If you fear the infamous “How about you tell us what you really think!?!”, beware integrity! 🙂

        I may have overdone it a bit on menopause. But there’s a point to that above and beyond the actual comment…

        Perhaps it is a generational thing. My lot enjoyed Bambi vs. Godzilla. A rather sarcastic extra short animation. It feels like the current generations wants to start a Bambi protection fund at the mere mention of the title 🙂 If “feeeeelings” are to be the order of the day, it “feeels” as though we have to mollycoddle you all the time, like toddlers and preschoolers. It offends me! Profoundly! I have neither the time nor the inclination. And many boomers and Gen Xrs are baffled. We know it has to stop or there are serious dangers dead ahead, but we just can’t seem to find the proper way to get people to grow up. We do not think in terms of “everything is a minefield” whenever we say something amongst ourselves, unless someone has been browbeaten into indocrinated submission. Why must we watch every single step around you?

        As things currently stand, some trend experts are predicting an eventual segregation of men and women in the workplace. Some even call it inevitable. As things now stand, I do know that some of my colleagues will welcome that change. It’s not that they dislike women. They are sick and tired of working with them. Too much grief! Dating may become much easier if some irritants can be reduced in scope. I’ll be around for the outcome. That’s the next 10-15 years!~:-)

        1. Fleurdl123

          Yes, YAG made the comment about the shorter ladies.

          There is a world in between mollycoddling and being emotionally tone deaf.

        2. FG

          I’m not emotionally triggered by anything I read on a blog. I may sometimes think a person a fool, uninformed or misinformed, lost, or irrational, and the list goes on.

          I, again, remind you of a key caveat: A woman doing “whatever” does not indiccate ALL women would do the same. Nor does it indicate a majority of women would follow the same course of action, thoughta or repeat specific behavorial pattern.

          I included an excerpt of my OLD profile. Many women mention travel, to which I say (in same) “Do you mean solely spending time at a resort? Whuch is occasionally fine. or travel per say?” and add “Are we going to hear “The water was wet, there was salt in the ocean,  the sun was too hot, the sand was grainy, or abrasive?” Some women survive my profile. Some have said “I don’t meet you requirements, but wish I did. I cracked up reading your text!”, a few complained, others said I had balls!

          Different strokes ! You get that leaving the median of the normal-curve will land us on very different grounds. You saw my Freud quote, and allusions to backfire / blowback. This is not, imho, the place to be my caring, charming (and no, no fake affectations) self, but in my mind, rather an opportunity to take the bull by the horns. I could use “It seems to me…” and follow by affirmation. I am detailed, so I try to cut down 🙂 I also attempt to cover much ground.

  23. 53

    @Stacy in 50.1… read Marika in 36.1

    As to Theodora’s gender, with my limited but apparently more extensive than most sampling of East Euro culture, I have no doubt that she IS female. Know why? 1) Her views reflect what I’ve seen and heard, and 2) Males would not bother at all!

    @Clare in 52.1  Btw, sorry, I believe I mispelled your name earlier.
    Irony: Thank you for recognizing my divinity…. Oh,  that was NOT your point? Shucks! 🙂  Darn, was looking to start a cult 😉 Irony off. Yes, I got the exclamatory exasperation.

    Apparently, you want men to comment but only if their opinions confirm and validate your world view. Now I DID ask a few questions (to female participants), and you answered none of them.
    Do you know where you stand? (And feel free to enlighten us).
    Would you date the average Joe?

    Jeremy is right! Your opinion matters, but you must verbalize it / write it! Eye-rolling comments don’t qualify!

    1. 53.1



      All of my ex-boyfriends have been average Joes. Nice looking (but no Brad Pitt), successful (but no Rockefeller), and intelligent (but no Einstein). As for height, I have dated a range. From two guys who were 6’3″, to one guy who was 5’7″ (he was one of the ones I was most heartbroken over and sorry to lose), and everything in between.

      1. 53.1.1

        Your very description puts the guys you describe in quite a different category than Average Joe. Take a look at that Gaussian equal-probability normal-distribution (or bell) curve from the link in #34..

        Median / average household income in the US is $51K, but (just Googled)…
        According to the U.S Census Bureau “The per capita income for the overall population in 2008 was $26,964; for non-Hispanic Whites, it was $31,313; for Blacks, it was $18,406; for Asians, it was $30,292; and for Hispanics, it was $15,674.”

        We humans tend to rework “average” in terms of our “line of sight”, meaning our neighborhood, social circle, workplace, hangouts, activities. I sometimes joke that the average guy at the yacht or golf club is not average.
        “Nice looking” sounds like 6-7? That curve would have a “5” as a center-value.
        Successful would men what? $45K a year as an individual is almost a household income, not single. $70K? $80K? WAY above average>
        Intelligent (and success is a strong correlate) at IQ 115 would likely be +1 Standard Deviation. Maybe more. So that is better than 70% of men (in the whole population) and 20% above average.

        “American upper middle class consists, strictly in an income sense, of professionals with personal incomes in excess of $62,500, who commonly reside in households with six figure incomes.”
        The definitions seem to trip up and get defined as “white collar workers” / professionals, but the truth is there is a wide swath of blue-collar workers in that income range (craftsmen, such as millwrights, technicians, electricians).

        Then we might introduce considerable nuance from urban/rural, and which specific city. I find it fascinating! Not everyone does!

        1. FG

          PS sorry, ” Successful would meAn what”

          I can take a guy with a high disposable income from San Antonio and drop into NYC to struggle financially. CA has wonderful climate, but high taxes, high rent (actually abominable near or in the Bay area and Silicon Valley), (mostly) unaffordable real estate.

          The variatiions and what they mean can be quite surprising.

        2. Clare



          I’m afraid the majority of your descriptions are lost on me as I live in South Africa.


          I’m not going to even attempt to explain what an average Joe is here, as I suspect that would just be poking the bear.

        3. FG


          Nice looking is still better than Average.
          Success is usually above average
          Intelligence normal distribution is pretty Earth-bound Universal 🙂

          South Africa… Guess I never spent 3x 6-weeks in Secunda, never been to Capetown, etc. JoBurg? What’s that? Windhoek? No clue! Brai? Why? Is it not a vegan country? LOL
          You’d be surprised

          Cheers 😉

        4. Clare



          I still maintain that my expectations are perfectly realistic and working for me as far as the guys I date, hence my unwillingness to debate you on this.

          I’m impressed that you know the word “braai” 😉

          Windhoek is in Namibia, however. (I lived there for a while too.)

        5. KK


          Your constant posting is starting to sound manic.

        6. FG

          Never questioned the validity of your criteria. Was simply pointing out they are unlikely to equal Average Joe, and are likely to be much more stringent 🙂

          Somebody has to liven things up 🙂
          I’d been away for a while. Just catching up!!! LOL

        7. Persephone


    2. 53.2

      Some have said, “I don’t meet your requirements but wish I did”.

      Genius! The ability to reject an undesirable without him ever realizing it. Will have to remember this line. Lol

      1. 53.2.1

        Perniciously cute, but your tack assumes I initated contact. I hadn’t. In 3 cases, I received unsolicited messages from women who had kids, and specifically state in profile I don’t date women w kids.
        Unsolicited, I have received messages stating I was interesting or had an interesting development, or had compelling ideas.

        My “$150K net worth” minimum and/or pension is also pretty reasonable for the 50-58 range. I am way above that. A little too real?

        As to undesirable, you should be so lucky! 🙂

  24. 54

    Guys, read what Evan wrote in blue above. If anyone feels ‘much maligned’, perhaps it’s because they are the ‘equivalent of an atheist trolling on site for Christians’. You likely fit this category if every time anyone points out that your comments are superficial, egotistical &/or hypocritical, your kneejerk response is ‘but women..’, or you do a word dump designed to show how very brilliant & knowledgeable you are.

  25. 55


    I am certainly looking forward to finding out how you will entertain a relationship without a man (well, there’s always the possibility of changing tems). have a kid w/o a man (there is artificial insemination, but I sure as hell would not donate, nor should anyone), “and all that”!

    What, exactly, sets you off in my post? Again, it is direct. Guilty.
    Discussion of sexual matters?
    My poor opinion of talk therapy?
    Requesting that a woman have something to show for her labors?
    I might summarize point by point. But you can easily and surely focus on ONE element. Fleur did! On my cavalier treatment of menopause. I commend Fleur, by the way. She took the time to at least respond to the “Average Joe” question.

    Thank you for “very brilliant and knowledgeable”. You forgot “experienced” but I guess it is assumed. As to “word dump”, do you seriously imagine I spend my whole day doing this? That is why there are typos. Reading something is assumed to be a 300 words/minute rate (college average). I can do much better if I concentrate (and so can you). Really putsing with TV in background? 200 wpm. So I provided 1.5 to 5 minutes of seethign entertainment 🙂  Has it occurred to you that some peopke do puzzles, and others might simply write as a coffee break?

    I’m sure that reading through my various posts, especially where I mention how one woman did X, or another said Y, you must sometimes agree the exhibited behaviors were… untenable? Some of them? None? All? I do NOT write fiction here. And reality is stranger than fiction. Take the pot-smoking gal. If she had been smoking weed when I was absent, until we consider living together, not an issue! Traveling together? Big problem (maybe). Her consumption rate? A deal-breaker. My consumption? Zero, but I have a tolerance to others. That was a major issue for that brief interaction. A guy might do the same and you yourself might dump him.

  26. 56


    Of course a woman needs to ‘give’ a man something in a relationship (and vice versa). I also understand that there are women out there who believe that their mere presence should be enough. Maybe a lot of those happen to live in the Washington and that’s why you’re so against relationships. Who knows?

    What I do know is this: if after however many months of being on this blog you still think the point is for Evan to help women force non-committal men into commitment by being better or giving more than other women, you’ve entirely missed the point. I’ve bought a few of his products and am currently enrolled in Love U. So I know I’m more familiar with his work that you are. Evan would caution us against trying to force men like you and your work-friends-with-degrees-who-want-variety into relationships and say a fond farewell if we happened to get mixed up with them, to seek out commitment-minded men. I know you think such men don’t exist as they don’t exist in your circles, but everyday people are entering relationships and getting married, so I know they do.

    If you want variety, go for your life. But leave those of us who do want healthy, happy relationships to find them.

  27. 57

    Marika, how old is YAG? Roughly my age? No, people in our social circles are not getting married, if you make exception of family (went to 2 weddings, in May and 2 weeks ago).
    I AM relationship-oriented, but I will likely never remarry. Hmm, scrap the likely. But common-law / cohabitation is not out of the question. YAG has thrown in the towel. I haven’t!

    There was a lot of hoopla about pump & dump, which is after the fact rejection (where the fact is sex).
    We likely agree that a very few lost souls are intent on hurting other people (but very few are that disturbed), many may hurt others unwillingly due to lack of awareness, some want to be players, and if disclosed, there is nothing wrong with  that, while springing it as a surprise is, in my view, unethical, and finally, the balance are seeking a connection, and may not find it, so they move on!

    There is an EIQ / maturity/ self-knowledge and awareness aspect to that equation, and there are links to experience as well. So accusatory finger-pointing CAN miss the point! The guy mistook his lust for something more! And naught but dust was left the next morning.
    From a high of sorts, to a stark realization that you do not belong with that person and it’s not going to fly. Both parties are disappointed by this state of affairs. In my observations and listening to the tales, a cursory escape with little or no explanation is not a lack of compassion (though it could be), nor meant to be hurtful, but mostly a lack of words to express the tenor of the situation.

    Funny thing about OLD. Each meeting gets imbued with a sliver of hope. And people get worn down, leaving little or nothing in their “hope jar”, usually temporarily. For a few, no such regeneration, or longer process.
    We’re close to mail-order catalog partners. Like a Sears item, color ain’t right, fit is wrong, doesn’t look like the picture, false advertising (doesn’t work as promised), smells funny, stitching is wrong, longer / shorter than expected, button missing, etc. So we return it to Sears. Or Amazon.

  28. 58

    Great to hear you’re relationship minded and don’t pump and dump. Kudos, FG.

    Beyond that, this discussion is getting all a bit long winded, meandering and, frankly, tedious. So I’m cutting it off at this point.  All the best to you and hope it works out with your lady.

  29. 59

    Oh goodness Jeremy

    i never meant to imply you lack humility. Not at all, quite the opposite. I personally greatly enjoy your posts, learn from them and am consistently impressed  (& somewhat jealous) of your empathy & ability to make your points without insulting anyone. Thank you!

    1. 59.1

      That’s very kind of you, Marika, I enjoy your posts too.  But regardless of whether your message was directed at me or someone else, it was a good reminder.  I have several narcissistic people in my family – all of whom seemingly inherited the trait – and I when I see it in myself I try to eradicate it (and my wife is always happy to help me with that 🙂  ).  I often wonder how others fail to notice it, even when pointed out.

      1. 59.1.1

        Hahaha, yes partners are like that! Siblings are a good preparation for marriage, both love to point out your flaws 😊

        My guess is that not everyone thinks narcissism is a bad trait. Growing up in a big Catholic family, in a country with the tall poppy syndrome, the worst thing you could do is big-note yourself. Very much not tolerated in my neck of the woods. It’s a useful reminder for me that that’s not everyone’s experience!


    2. 59.2

      “There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy”, and with that, Jeremy, Bill the Bard and myself agree! Likely Bill the Cat as well! Empath? Settled topic!

      While we bandy words like narcissism and conceit, what comes to mind is “extraordinarily unproductive” and shortsighted. Hardly thought expanding or enlightening. A psychobabble take on triggers?

      “…people’s opinions matter…” is only partly true and even flawed. What I think of you is irrelevant. And I really don’t care what you think of me. Thus, for that opinion, it matters only to you. I make no money posting here. I do, however, sometimes have a (paying) public. Say $2,000 or $2,500 for 3-5 days.  I care about the opinions of paying customers. As does Evan, I am sure. “So why write this anyway?” Not all readers post. Some will grasp that it’s not about me, it’s not about you, it’s about ideas, causes of rejection from either gender, relationsip pitfalls.

      I will venture that Theodora probably found my posts, or some of their contents, interesting. Could be wrong. The point? Some MAY find value therein. Others, not! Some may come upon situations (absurd as they may be) previously unseen. Ten years down the road, a vague memory may creep up and a thought of “Oh yeah! The guy on that blog was right! It is a red flag!”
      Insulting someone is abusive. It alludes to scorn and contempt. Neither of which I heaped upon anyone. Intellectually, I hear or perceive attacks on the person as opposed to the ideas. You may criticize the tone. Fair enough. But grab a few points, and express opinion on those. I do respond to attack, whether overt or underhanded.  
      Seriously. Go to Youtube, search for Jordan Peterson, and listen to his videos. ALL of them. But you can select the order by topical interest. Also, please read The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck.
      Stop making yourself weak. Stop being weak. Stop imagining that moaning is an expression of strength. You will thus have a better, happier life and a better career.

      Just finished reading Weapons of Mass Instruction by Gatto. Not recent but still relevant.

      Only 31 percent of college-educated Americans can fully comprehend a newspaper story, down from 40 percent a decade ago. — National Commission on the Future of Higher Education, August, 2006

      2 striking items: how do you even get though college with such limited comprehension? While the ’06 figure is appalling, ’96 was far from stellar!
      And this is for a news story.

      Dated (single event) a PhD. Let’s say 7.5. Oddly destitute. But I quickly came to understand that she almost viewed any kind of success as a flaw. Reconvening was not desirable, but I procured and read her thesis. Fluff! It served a purpose: my consideration of doctorates changed, and so did my opinion of the university that gave her the paper. 

      Wrote one 1150 words post (too many words). As an essay, that would on average require 4-4.5 hours. I did this in… 25 minutes (noted because I have a timer on some software, relevant for paid work). The formation and expression of thought is an exercise. If within the past year you had read 500 webpages, white papers, and a stack of books on a topic and filtered through them, applying critical thinking and bending over backwards to avoid confirmation bias (and altering a number of views along the way, which I find a sign of openness instead of arrested development), you might have ready references on hand.
      I try to convey info and experience and have fun doing it! And I’m the only or one of the few who seems to be dating women 50-58. Recent adjustment 45-58 YAG might, but he seeks younger. That said, Evan has many clients in that range. He preps them. Not knowing the process, I know not if he gets the full feedback of their experience. And as a coach, he is fully dependent on the client’s disclosure, just as a therapist might be. Coach (or therapist) may be unaware of things the dating partner found out.

  30. 60

    Evan, I wish you wouldn’t engage with the negativity on here.    They feed off your attention.   You’re way better than that.

    Separetly, I really do feel bad for the men who get rejected.   I’ve rejected so many, but as nice as I could (except the one guy who said the “P” word at least 50 times during our first date. OMG.).

    I agree with earlier posts – the guys need to spend some time adding pictures to their profiles, and actually filling out their profiles.    Most write “non emails”, just “hey whussup”.    So an Evan for the men would be great.

    I could use some actual language, how to I coach a guy to CALL ME rather than email.

    I could use some language that’s nice to let a guy down after a first date.

    1. 60.1

      Simplicity itself! But it works best on a slant!
      Since a large % of women prefer to maintain control of their phone # before they get a sense of who the guy is (which is a good idea), you ask for the guy’s # for a one-time talk, and use *67 before dialing his number.

      Accomplishes the same objective 🙂

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *