How to Have a GREAT First Date

10 Shares

Are you sick of going on dating apps, swiping right, texting a million guys, and having horrible coffee dates? If so, you have the power to have a completely different dating experience and go on great first dates. In this Love U Podcast, you will learn to do the opposite of whatever you’re doing now and ensure that your first dates involve dinner, drinks and romance.

Watch: YouTube

Enjoy the Love U Podcast? Please leave a short review on Apple Podcasts.

Hi, I’m Evan Marc Katz, Dating Coach for Smart, Strong, Successful Woman, your personal trainer for love. Welcome to Love U Podcast. 

Have you been on a lot of bad dates? Have you discovered that bad dates are both life draining and soul-sucking? Have you considered that the reason you’re going on bad dates is actually your fault? Probably not. 

In today’s Love U Podcast, I am going to show you how to have a great first date and expect better treatment from men overall. 

So this is going to be a longer podcast today because this is something I’m really passionate about; something I’ve been thinking about for a really long time. My view of dates is informed by 17 years of coaching. Ten years of dating. And it doesn’t mean that I’m right and you’re wrong. Anything you’re about to hear that sounds like I’m disagreeing with you is certainly not a personal attack. But yours is probably informed by years of terrible dates, which is obviously going to impact the way you view dating overall. 

The problem and this is a Love U principle that we teach in week one, it’s not about right or wrong. It’s about effective and ineffective rants. I never anytime I say anything that pushes your buttons or challenges you, I’m not trying to suggest that I’m right and you’re inherently wrong for feeling differently. 

The goal is to have success. 

And there are better ways of doing things than others. I think we can all recognize that. 

So if you’ve ever gone on a bunch of dates where the guy’s a half-hour late, then reach for the check, tried too hard to get laid, bitched about his ex for two hours, you have very valid reasons for being wary of dating.

And so what I’m about to propose today is sort of radical. I don’t know anybody else who gives the exact advice that I give. And I like that for a very specific reason. Most people stick with the surface. We’re going a level deeper not to just figure out why, but what to do differently, to get a different result. So my proposal is that your solution to bad dates is actually the problem of creating more bad dates, which is hard to digest. Right?

But if you’re using a dating app, you’re swiping right and you’re texting and meeting guys as quickly as possible for coffee A.S.A.P.. Very specifically to avoid wasting time, that’s the primary reason that dating sucks so much. And the only way to get a different result is to do something different instead of complaining, “wow, this sucks.” So that’s what I hear. I hear a lot of dating sucks. Dating apps suck. Texting sucks. But I don’t see anybody trying to get away from their way of doing things. 

I have a maximalist view of dating.

So understand, as a dating coach for smart, strong, successful women who have everything but the guy, I have a maximalist view of dating. A maximalist view for our purposes is something that results in a best-case scenario. Minimalist approaches usually are in fear of the worst-case scenario. 

So consider me. I’ll pretend to be a guy. My best-case scenario is I go for dinner and drinks on a Saturday night to a great spot near her home atmospheric. Not too expensive. And we talk for three hours until the restaurant kicks us out. There’s another bar we could walk to within a couple of feet that I already scoped out. We go there afterward for drinks on a Saturday night. Closed down that place. It’s 1:00 in the morning. I drive home, walk her to the door. She invites me inside. 

That’s great. The first date for me. Not saying it is for you. For me, that’s a great first date. 

So how do I make that happen? That’s going to be my question. How do I make that happen? 

I’m certainly not going to be by swiping right and going to Starbucks for a 20-minute interview. We’ll get back to that. 

So it’s my worst-case scenario. I guess to go on that same date where the conversation is like pulling teeth and it’s two hours of brushing up against each other’s sensitivities and just talking past each other and not wanting to be there. And then, you know, picking up the check at the end of the night for someone that I decidedly don’t like. I guess that’s the worst-case scenario for a guy. 

So imagine a guy who might be the male equivalent of you. He has a different experience. And we talked about your experience with the flakes and the guys trying to get laid and the negative guys. So imagine a guy who feels the same way you do about dating. So he’s burned out. He’s been doing this for a long time. A lot of volume, a lack of quality. His experiences, women who are really attractive have a million options and they’re going to flake out on you. Or if they’ve got something to hide, they’re going to wait a long time until meeting and then you’re gonna meet them in person. They’re not going to look like their photo or he’s got a crazy ex who’s sucked up all of his energy and his experience post X has been really negative and dating because, in his perception, women go out with you. Even if they don’t like you, they’re not attracted to you. They go for some taller, richer guy. They just want free dinners. 

A very negative cast on Dating. And that’s his experience. I’m not saying it’s good or bad. We can say what we want about that guy. But in his logical mind, what’s the point of trying to plan a nice date for a woman when 90 percent of the women don’t turn out the way he expects them to? Making a phone call. Planning a date. Spending money with a 50 to 75 percent chance that she’s not going to like him. 

Which, what percentage of guys do you like? So if that’s accurate, it’s a disincentive for a guy to plan a great day. And yet I would still recommend that a guy do it. 

But men aren’t listening to me. They’re not listening to me at all. So what do you see? Selfishly, guy swipes right. Texts, “hey, you want to hang out? What are you doing tonight? Want to come over?” It’s a minimalist dating method and it’s based on low expectations. He’s expecting nothing from you. It’s a volume approach. He’s trying to minimize the amount of time he spends, the amount of energy, thought, emotional investment, money. It’s a minimalist dating approach. And that’s where everybody’s at right now, is this minimalist dating approach. And you can understand his feelings. You can understand how Tinder is ideal for men. It’s not for women who want to be seen and want to be courted and want to be treated well. But if we just look at this like some sort of game theory, you swipe right. As a guy on a thousand women. She’s reasonably attractive. You text a hundred of them and you put in a little effort and you see who’s willing to meet as quickly as possible and hook up as quickly as possible. 

He might be a sincere guy who wants to find a wife. But it’s really hard to resist the pull of this, putting in as little effort as possible for the most possible reward. So there’s very little incentive for a guy to engage in courtship. That’s why you have to differentiate yourself. That’s why you have to sort of flip the script around and listen. This is what I see every day. I’m not in the interest of blaming women if they had bad experiences with men or men who’ve had bad experiences with women. 

But this is what my client’s do over the course of six months. This is what they’re complaining about. Men put in no effort. They’re so lazy. 

And so the solution is to reward them more for being lazy, for a lack of effort? The solution is to continue to swipe right and text and meet strangers for coffee? No, it’s literally the opposite. 

So here’s how we’re gonna do this. Let’s work backward just the way I told you about my ideal first date. Let’s work backward from the best date you’ve ever had. How could we recreate that every single time? And having done this for a pretty long period of time. Believe it or not, a lot of people’s idea of their ideal first date doesn’t begin with a half-hour in a plastic chair at two-thirty in the afternoon at Starbucks. It doesn’t. It’s what we’re doing to avoid wasting time, to avoid getting hurt, to avoid making an investment, to avoid it, to avoid, to avoid. But again, it’s a minimalist approach. How little can we do? 

So if you go with the minimalist approach, he goes with the minimalist approach. We just perpetuate more of this problem. There’s no screening mechanism. There’s no courtship. We’re assuming the worst. And I like to assume the best. That might sound crazy because 90 percent of guys are not useful to us. But we want to screen those men out before the date. 

So close your eyes and imagine you’re in a happy place. What’s an amazing date? Think back to the most amazing date you ever had. What steps can you take to reverse engineer such a situation so something like that could happen again? And how do you nudge a guy into treating you that way? 

So if I were giving advice to men and I did for the four, five years of my career, I would tell them to do this. Now I’m telling you to do this exact thing. 

Because if every other guy is doing this and you got one guy who’s like, hey, you want to talk on the phone? And I call you. And we talk on Zoom for an hour and a half and it goes really well. And I said it was a lot of fun. I’ll call you later this week. And we do that. We start to build up trust and report excitement and anticipation. And now there’s this one guy who’s pulled ahead of all the other guys who are just doing this. This is one guy who’s doing it just by putting in a little bit of time upfront to ensure that if we go on a date. If I take you out, you’re going to have fun and I’m going to have fun. 

So they will say that’s time wasted. No, it’s time invested to screen people and to avoid a bad date. So if your ground in the idea that dating minimalism is the way to go, guess what? You’re just feeding into the things that men are already doing that you don’t like, putting a little time, little effort, little ability to differentiate themselves all because we’re afraid of wasting time and getting hurt. 

And in order to turn that ship around, you have to nudge men into courtship to avoid texting, to avoid coffee dates. 

Why? And how does this work? Because they want to please you. You’re the goal. If he wants to get anywhere with you, he has to follow your rules. That’s the central premise of Love U. You’re the CEO and men are the interns. So how do you get the intern to follow your application process so that you get the kind of date that feels great? That closes down the bar at 1:00 in the morning if that’s your thing? That ends in a good night kiss instead of a handshake or a hug goodbye. You have the power to make that happen. 

And I go deep on this. I mean, this is just a podcast, but I go deep on this. The entire Love U course, month two is called Meeting Men. And we go through consecutive weeks, flirting, online dating, first dates, courtship. This entire week of material with coaching on how to make sure that if you have a first date, it’s going to be a good one. So check that out. 

Go below this page, read the description, learn more about Love U and I will talk to you there. 

My name is Evan Marc Katz. 

I want to thank you for tuning into another episode of Love U Podcast. 

If you enjoyed it and you learned something valuable, please subscribe, share an honest review on Apple Podcasts, and if you’re ready to find love now look for the link in that description below. Fill out an application to enroll in Love U. 

Thank you so much. 

Are you the woman who has everything except your man? You can have the relationship of your dreams and you don’t have to change to get it. 

In love U, you will gain confidence, let go of unhealthy relationship patterns, learn to trust your judgment, understand and attract quality men, assess long term compatibility and create a passionate, unconditionally loving relationship with a partner who puts you first, never lets you down, and always makes you feel safe, heard, and understood. 

Go to www.evanmarckatz.com and click on the ‘apply for coaching’ button to get started.

  1. Download my free special report, The 8 Massive Mistakes You’re Making in Relationships
  2. Get the man of your dreams fast by applying to enroll in Love U.

Join our conversation (208 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 21
    Adrian

    Hi ScottH,

    ScottH you have been a regular on this blog longer than anyone currently comment; even me. It is sad to see your outlook on women and dating get so bleek. I hope that whatever you are going through gets better because I always looked forward to your insightful point of view.

    __________
    ScottH said, “30% are pretty terrible odds against the male, if that is indeed accurate and it speaks to the prevalence of entitlement among women.”
    __________

    70% of women don’t. 70 is twice as big as 30; focus on the positive not the negative. 70% is an outrageously high set of odds! Every job interview, every medical checkup, every car accident, every attempt at trying something new, people would love to have those type of positive odd of being successful. At MOST people can guarantee 50/50 odds but you are saying that 70% of women that go on dates are sincere and are genuinely good people-Thanks for passing along that stat.

    __________
    ScottH said, ” Now that they have equality, along with it comes the associated rights, responsibilities, and privileges of EQUALITY…. women want the same promotion as men from 9-5 but from 5-9 they want chivalry. That is simply hypocritical bullshit.”
    __________

    False equivalence Scott. Wanting to be treated romantically by a man has nothing to do with wanting to be treated with basic human rights. Read Jeremy’s post, he constantly talks about wanting to be treated as if he is desirable at home, why isn’t he and every other man wrong for wanting promotions & equality from 9-5 but wanting warmth and kindness from the person who is dating them from 5-9?

    __________
    ScottH said, “You mention doing what’s effective. I believe that is doing what someone else wants you to do. Do you not have limits? Boundaries? What about what you and I want? What if I wanted and expected a bj on the first date? They would scoff at us for having such an expectation.”

    “Now let me ask you: are you doing what you believe in, or are you doing what someone else is telling you what you should think and do to get the desired results, people with vested interests?”
    __________

    Again false equivalency. We all have or should have boundaries but you can NOT compare men paying $50 for a meal in which they also get to eat and enjoy what is being paid for with a woman giving men a blowjob in which she does NOT get any particular pleasure out of it, and she risk contracting a possible STD from a complete stranger. Yes what you and I want are important; finding out how to get that while simultaneously giving her respect and freedom of choice is the core to my questions to Jeremy above.

    As far as me doing what someone is telling me vs thinking for myself, that is easy… I’m doing what someone who has what I want is telling me to do! Sorry I know most men don’t like that mentality but Evan is happily married with a great wife, good career, and he is highly respected-I want that. So listening to him vs listening to some random guys that are single, complains about not being able to find someone, and how lonely they are, is a no brainer.

    Though I am curious, for most of you men who feel that I am wrong I wonder… When you go to job interviews, or want to cook a meal you have never tried, or want to fix part of your car even though you are not a mechanic, or invest financially though you are not an accountant; do you all just do it and hope for the best or do you ask, read, and watch the advice of experts that have succeeded in doing what you want to succeed in?

  2. 22
    Adrian

    Hello Bbq,

    I honestly don’t think anything I say will change your way of thinking so I don’t really have anything to say in response to your comment.

    But I will say this, Evan has been on over 300 dates, he has coached hundreds of women for over 17 years. He has proof of both his battle scars and victories. I really do think you should listen to his advice vs some random guys online.

    EVERYONE can brag about having dated models and wild sex orgies with gorgeous women, it’s not like we can verify what they are telling us. But we know Evan’s results, he is an open book unlike most people you see online or youtube giving dating advice but they are still single.

    1. 22.1
      Bbq

      Adrian

      I’m basing my opinion on whether it’s right or wrong to pay entirely on my own thoughts and my opinion on whether or not you need to pay to be successful on dates on my own experience. From that I can conclude it’s not worth doing something I find illogical and gross when I can go on second dates with women without doing it, and like them the more for not showing any want of it.

      Nowhere have I said this was advice I was getting from some random guy or some Youtuber pick up artist (or even the brilliant Mr Katz). You made that jump to cast me as more pathetic because you disagreed with me, whether that was intentional or not I don’t know or care. But I do know that I need not pay and don’t like to and have yet to hear a single logical argument why I or anyone else should. But we can agree to disagree at this point.

      1. 22.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        The argument is simple. Women like it. If you want to do well with women, do things they like. All your diatribes to the contrary seem to avoid this most important of all points.

        1. Bbq

          Evan Marc Katz

          I fully understand that a large amount of women like it even in this day and age. My point is that the excpectation and therefore need to do it decreases with each passing year. You may not see it as a big deal but I do. You don’t advise women to do absolutely anything to get a man do you? There are some actions despite increasing their chances, you wouldn’t reccomend out of care for them aren’t there? This is all I’m doing here, you may not agree with that and that’s fine. We just don’t see it the same way.

          I find it ridiculous that there are working modern women here upset about the idea of a man not paying more for them than they pay on a date. Even many of those who are claiming they pay and seem reasonable like Lynx will then follow up with some kind of comment making it clear they actually do want men to do more for them on the first date.

          Sure tell me it works to pay for women or at least you won’t decrease your chances by doing so, but you must find the idea of women expecting it and becoming upset when they don’t get it ridiculous in this age where they earn their own money? Don’t you?

        2. Lynx

          Bbq said: “Even many of those who are claiming they pay and seem reasonable like Lynx will then follow up with some kind of comment making it clear they actually do want men to do more for them on the first date.”

          Of course it’s flattering when a man makes an effort to impress me. There are lots of ways that demonstrate making an effort, paying the check is just one of them.

          As I reflect on the arguments you’ve made to this blog post, the feeling I get from you is that it isn’t just about having to foot the bill, but that you resent making *any* effort. I could completely be reading that wrong, but in the context of the first few dates with a new woman, what kind of effort do you actually want to make?

        3. Bbq

          Lynx

          You can think this is about more than footing the bill if you want, but the feeling I get from you commenting that is that you simply want to ignore all the totally logical and moral arguments against footing the bill which show the entitlement of that excpectation and dismiss them in that way because you can’t really defend it on its own merits. Whether this is intentional or more emotionally based arguing because you feel you’ve been insulted I don’t know, but ultimately it makes no difference, your still resorting to it.

          Nonetheless I will answer your question with a question, what sort of effort do you think Men should make on new dates? What sort of effort should anyone make? Women don’t make the effort of footing the whole bill, so what does that say? Now if I don’t foot the bill what else what you have me do? Rent a tux? Wear a Rolex? Maybe find an open field and drive around with my date doing donuts like a teenager? Would those things be making enough effort?

          FYI, I don’t really think of “planning dates”. My first few “dates” with my gf were me and her going to the botanic gardens near by where we walked around for a bit and I played the violin for a while, then after that we had coffee (well I had tea). That’s stuff I always do anyways but I just invited her to come. Then we went to a Hitchcock movie that was playing in this old style cinema (this was pre corona). Again, something I would have done without her, but it was better with her there. Actually now I think on it, I think I bought her popcorn and drink, does that count as paying lol? It wasn’t out of chivalry or excpectation tho, just because it was such an insignificant amount it seemed pointless to pay twice. She has done the same for me.

          So you see it isn’t even the action of paying I have a problem with, it’s women who have modern excpectations for all else preferring when men pay because they are men, entitlement for which there is no justification imo.

  3. 23
    Adrian

    Hi Lynx

    Really quickly Lynx I wanted to say that you made a comment perhaps last year or the year before that I loved but never thanked you for. You spoke about your philosophy in dating (I think at the time the discussion was about looks or something) and you said you treat it like you treat running from a monster. You said you don’t worry about being 1st, you just focus on being faster than the person next to you; that way they can get caught 1st and when they are being eaten you can escape! (^_^)

    That was hilarious, but it was also really great advice. To much talk is about the top 20% this or the top that. We shouldn’t worry over not being at the top just make sure we are at the bottom. Basic hygiene and dressing nicely is a huge boost.

    __________
    Lynx said, “If I waited until I felt physically attracted to a guy to go on a date, then I would be single for the remainder of my days.”
    __________

    I can’t argue with someone’s personal experience; so I will only focus on the subject. Typically I still believe that something has to be there for a women to accept a date. Even you I don’t see accepting just every random guy who asks you out. There has to be something there to cause you to say yes. Perhaps the word attraction is too strong of a word, but there has to be some basic standards or prerequisites that a guys has to meet physically before you accept… Unless you literally accept every guy that ask you out.

    __________
    Lynx said, “As one of those 50-something women who’s probably in the 90-somethingth percentile for fitness compared to peers, few men my age, in my area, are physically appealing to me.”
    __________

    YAG (who is in your age range) talks a lot about all the women that chase him online. For the longest I thought he was just bragging (lying) but now I am thinking that he is telling the truth (though I’m not saying there is no exaggerating on his part). I’m not sure if you were around when he posted a picture of himself here but compared to most people your age he looks healthy. At the time when I first saw the picture I didn’t see the source of all his bragging but I think I was analysing his looks from the perspective of someone my age (I think I was 28 or 29 at the time); however like you said most people who are older let themselves go physically along with just the normal effects of aging.

    I looked at his face and thought he looked average but now as I look at most people in that age group they look less than average. From that picture YAG could have passed for mid-late 40’s, he says he is tall, and he is financially successful which I can see attracting a lot of women.

    Not focusing on him but on the subject. I am wondering if the reason women in your age range say they don’t care about a man being handsome is because looks to my age group mean something different to your age group? Since my age group takes being slender, muscular, and tight skinned, for granted but it’s more rare for those older? Or maybe it’s like how a girl who is average looking to me (33) is hot to a guy who is 53, NOT because older guys can see what I can’t but because youthfulness is rarer the older you get so someone that possesses it will automatically seem attractive?

    Just throwing out some hypothesis, what are your thoughts?

    1. 23.1
      Adrian

      meant * make sure you’re NOT at the bottom*

    2. 23.2
      Emily, to

      Hi Adrian,
      “There has to be something there to cause you to say yes.”
      I’m guessing (I asked her the same question) but she probably feels neutral about them. No red flags to put him in the “no” category but nothing really revving her up to put him in the “yes” category. I kind of … “why not?” I’m asking her how she does it because I rarely meet guys I automatically put in the “yes’ category. If that’s the case (as it seems to be with her), maybe you have to rethink things.

      1. 23.2.1
        Adrian

        Heyyy Emily!

        How have you been? The last time that we spoke you had just moved back to your old city with your old job; how is that going for you? You had started a movie review club how is that going (which came first the chicken or the egg: do movies and pop culture influence our perceptions and expectations on courtship & romantic love or do our ideals and experiences influence what movies tell us too want and expect from courtship & romantic love)? Have you made any new “real” friends?… Have you started dating yet?

        As far as the subject since its Lynx’s personal perspective I really can’t comment on it but what I will do is focus on the subject. I just watched Evans video on women letting hot looking men get away with more than average looking men. He coaches women of all age ranges so this let’s me know that at the very least more women do this than they’re willing to admit, even if there are outliers.

        As I told her I was not focusing on YAG specifically but on the concept that perhaps when women get older the definition of attraction changes, or more specifically the features of what defines attractive, chemistry, or whatever you want to call it… Or or maybe it doesn’t change and women just get better on compromising since there have been studies to show that both men and women physically desire youthfulness in a partner.

        1. Emily, to

          Hi Adrian
          “The last time that we spoke you had just moved back to your old city with your old job …”
          I moved again to another state. Got a new job. Had just started when covid hit. They sent us all home. I’m not cut out to work from home. I need to be around people. How is your new job? How are things going?
          “You had started a movie review club how is that going?”
          Disbanded it. Are you still doing yours? I don’t really like having to organize everything and be held responsible for facilitating the entire conversation, which members seemed to think was my job. I’ll kick things off, but these were grown adults. I have joined a few new groups in my new city. Fringe/weird groups. Strange people. I’m looking for the strangest people I can find. 🙂 And in-person events are being held. Covid be damned!
          “do movies and pop culture influence our perceptions and expectations on courtship & romantic love”
          Yes. Romantic love is much more intense in pop culture.
          ” Have you made any new “real” friends?”
          1 real friend, who is of course very busy. And a few acquaintances with whom I have far less of a connection who are more available. Isn’t that always the case?
          “Have you started dating yet?”
          I had a tacky fling. Does that count? How about you?
          “As I told her I was not focusing on YAG specifically but on the concept that perhaps when women get older the definition of attraction changes …”
          You were harsh with him about his physical appearance. You’re too hung up on looks. I don’t know if the definition of attraction changes but it sure isn’t all based on looks. There are plenty of hot guys who are dull as heck.

        2. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          Do you remember when Karl R talked to Marika and myself about feeling shameful for addmitting we wanted to date someone attractive? I have long since made peace with the idea that looks matter to me. The most important thing is that it is not hurting my efforts in finding love; I get plenty of dates. If you notice the majority of my questions on here are all geared towards understanding personality, character, and motivation. I don’t think I have ever really directly asked that many questions about looks.

          However, I am actually glad that you made that statement about me being too focused on looks because it offers me the opportunity to address something to you that I have wanted to for awhile. Remember I say all this out of my genuine concerned for you and a desire for your happiness so please do not take this the wrong way.

          Just as you have told me that you think I focus too much on looks I think you focus too much on instant chemistry. However the difference is that it doesn’t seem to be working for you. I am not saying having a boyfriend or husband is the solution to loneliness but I think having someone there with you will truly help alleviate a large part of that for you.

          Again I am only basing this off of what you have shown us here-you seem lonely Emily. You’re bemoaning getting older alone, you have no friends or close family ties yet what I don’t understand is why don’t you do the things that will help change this? Mrs Happy offered to pay for Evans love you course, Evan has given you advice about focusing less on seeking chemistry and has even offered to work with you on the price of his course, Tom10 offered to do a friendly dating competition with you offline to motivate you to date, Marika offered to be your friend offline; and you turned all them down but are lonely.

          I am just saying thanks for your advice about my focus on looks; I’ll review it and make adjustments if it’s hurting my finding love goals and I hope you will do the same.

      2. 23.2.2
        Lynx

        @Emily, to has it right, @Adrian.

        I am open-minded about middle-ground guys…neither a definite yes or no. I am trying very hard to resist falling for my same old type and figure the only way to do that is by giving a fair shot to different types.

        That said, in about 2 months of online dating, only two guys have been an enthusiastic !!Yes!!, and both are my type…fascinating texters and conversationalists.

        And I suppose, it is a lot easier to do the “why not?” thing right now with Covid-19, because it’s not like I have a busy social calendar!

        ———

        Aside to @Adrian: funny you remember the story about not having to be the best, just better than the competition. I still believe it is true. I get a TON of comments about how great my online profile is, and I have totally optimized it based on that philosophy.

    3. 23.3
      Mrs Happy

      Hi Adrian,

      it is lovely to see you on the blog, I have been hoping you were okay, and also I confess hoping you’d fallen in love, and that was why the absence. You know if you’d like to post specifics about your life experience, you have a wealth of kind regulars here who would offer advice (I write this because you seem to be looking but not finding, relationship-wise, and there are, cumulatively, centuries of experience here, but more specifics would result in better targeted feedback for you).

      Re your above, yes, YAG looks good for his age, and a photo he posted showed a muscle-bound body, and he is tall, positives for many women, but what is also attractive about YAG is his direct attitude, experience, confidence, life career variety and success, and egalitarian mindset. He is also a flirt, and that will see him go far.

      Thanks for the below inquiry at #24. I am well with no recurrence, so all is good. Yes the stimulating conversation side of my life has improved; I currently don’t have much at all to do with people who talk about things which bore me, and now spend my discretionary time with a handful of friends who really interest me, and this, for me, is a better way to be. I think I was trying to fit into a crowd that wasn’t a good fit, for the sake of my young children and their social lives. Throwing off those shackles has been liberating; I have returned to who I actually am, with little pretense, and I feel lighter and less stressed as a result. This is the background to many of my “just be who you actually are during dating” comments to others; I find being genuine an easier way to walk through the world. No point at all trying to spend too much time or energy with those who aren’t a good fit, or a positive, for you. We none of us have that much time to waste on this planet.

  4. 24
    Adrian

    Hi Mrs. Happy,

    How have you been? The last time we spoke you were talking about being sick; are you better now? You were also talking about the difficulty of finding real friends and stimulating conversation among those you speak with daily so you started filtering more prudently; how has that worked out for you?

    As far as the subject, I don’t think it has anything to do with money. I wonder if these same men would be complaining about paying if there was “mutual” attraction and it was clear that the woman was as into him as he was into her???

    1. 24.1
      Bbq

      Adrian

      Make no mistake I would be. Don’t think everyone would grovel just for the chance at a possibility of slightly increasing their odds of a second date by doing something they disagree with.

      It seems to me your trying to suggest guys who don’t pay are losers who actually would pay would women just give them the time of day. If you agree with paying in principal then to each their own, however I would say those that don’t agree and do it anyway are the desperate ones.

      1. 24.1.1
        Buck25

        Bbq,

        “Grovel”? I think that’s a little too strong. Look at it this way: 50 years or more on, we are still trying to figure out this whole “gender equality” thing, and its many ramifications (many of which no one really thought about until they came up).. Dating mores are just one of these, and it appears some of these are changing, especially among younger Millennials and Generation Z. Besides, I think we might be talking about a difference in dating agendas. Younger Millennials and Generation Z are mostly twenty-something, so more likely to be more into casual dating/hookups than looking more long-term(perfectly ok in that age cohort, IMHO). Combine that with the fact that most of them aren’t exactly financially well-established yet, and cost-sharing on dates makes sense. IIRC, you say you’re 30, so that would be the age group you’d be dating in.

        On the other hand, I would guess that Evan’s clientele is mostly 35-55, and with most women in that age cohort, I’d guess that paying on the first date will go over better than not paying, simply because most would be accustomed to that. Then too, by 35 and beyond, most people (both genders) are dating more seriously, and more long-term oriented. Generally that means such women are looking for a man with an established career who is at least financially stable. Paying for the tab for 2-3 dates a week should be doable for such a man (first dates don’t have to be high-end dinner dates). In fact, I always tried to keep first dates casual (especially with women I met online) and relaxed, and in a place quiet enough to enjoy conversation. Where I am, that’s not expensive. For example, I did some first dates as weekend lunch dates, followed by a walk in a nice public park. Total cost, about $40 or less. I got just as many second and successive dates as I would have any other way, I think, and even when I didn’t, I still got a meal where I didn’t have to cook, and usually some pleasant conversation to go with it. Then again, I was never trying to impress a woman; I was just being myself, hoping she was doing the same, and letting whatever followed from that just be. I didn’t keep an exact count, but over a six year period, I went on somewhere around 60 to 70 first dates, and only had 3or 4 bad ones out of the lot. The rest were fun, whether they led to subsequent dates or not.

    2. 24.2
      ScottH

      Adrian- you should pay attention to what Jeremy says. A while back, he said this little gem: “we ALL give something to get something. The only difference between us is what we hope to get. Believing otherwise is the worst sort of bullshit, so very harmful and so very common.”
      You apparently are much younger than I, probably a couple decades. Some people my age get tired of giving so much to people who take others’ generosity for granted and getting so little in return. If every third date was someone taking advantage of your generosity, you should get not just sick of it, but angry.
      This is my last entry in this discussion.

      1. 24.2.1
        Adrian

        Hi ScottH,

        Fair enough if you do not wish to speak on this any further I also will just say one last thing and be done with it.

        Yes I do listen to Jeremy and I like Jeremy but you cannot compare Jeremy to Evan. They both have different emotional backgrounds and more importantly for this venue they both have different experiences with women. Jeremy has admitted that because of the difficulties in his marriage he had to get counseling because he is struggling with the after effects of that which in my opinion has affected some of his views on women, dating, and courting.

        Again I am not picking on Jeremy I’m just saying that sometimes his advice isn’t as “neutral and unbiased” as he thinks it is-though it is exceedingly well crafted and presented very eloquently. Evan is right. Focus on the positives in dating, and unlike me Evan is probably close to your age range and he still advises courting and paying. He more than likely interacts with more women than you or I will ever get a chance to so I believe him when he says the vast majority of women are not trying to take advantage of men or use men by wanting to be courted.

        I hope your outlook on women gets better.

  5. 25
    Bbq

    Evan Marc Katz

    Why delete my comments after previously putting them up? I was only answering because this guy was implying I or anyone that didn’t pay for dates was a loser who couldn’t get women and would pay if they had the chance. Kinda weak but I get the message.

    Pay don’t pay, its yous party.

    Adios only dating blog I will likely ever be interested in.

    1. 25.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Nobody deletes comments.

      1. 25.1.1
        Bbq

        Bbq

        Lol, my bad, I’m an idiot, just something weird my iPad was doing.

  6. 26
    Adrian

    Hi Jeremy,

    Thanks for answering my questions.

    __________
    You said, “Yes, I definitely meant desire in the sense of being the recipient of a woman’s action rather than her state of being. It’s easy enough for women to understand, I think. You know what you want him to do for you? Do it for him. But in kind, not in substance. Words…

    Here’s what I mean. What we give is almost always what we want to receive. A person whose love language is words will give words of love, not only to express love to a partner, but also to teach that partner what to give back in return. What is desired. A man who courts a woman with outrageous courtship efforts wants such efforts back from her…in kind. He doesn’t want her to take him to dinner, to plan or pay – that’s his job. Her doing so takes away from his efforts. But he wants her EFFORTS back, not just her appreciation (though he does want the appreciation too). But the efforts should be in the realm he perceives as her realm, not his. Generally the realm of sexuality, though for some men it could be other things.

    Men don’t want to have to do all the sexual work. We don’t want to risk rejection every time we touch women. We don’t want to have to win a woman’s interest. We want her to express interest in us. A flirty smile. A sideways look across a room. A kiss, initiated by her. A touch on the leg. Sometimes more. Doesn’t have to be at the level of porn (in which women almost always initiate), but that’s the idea.
    __________

    1st story: There is this comedian we have here in the U.S called Bill Burr and he tells this story of a time when he just started dating this woman and she showed up to his house one day wearing a trench coat. When she came in and took it off she was wearing this sexy school girl uniform, then she started acting like a slutty young girl-it turned him off.

    2nd story: At the beginning of this year before the virus hit, my company acquired another smaller company and I was in charge of mediating the acquisition. The owner of the small company was a nice guy, a really nice guy BUT he was a horrible business man. He reminded me of those stories you hear from women about guys thinking all they need to do is be nice to succeed with women. Anyway he thought because he was a nice guy that he was a great boss, but after speaking to a few of his employees I realized that being nice to your employees doesn’t necessarily make them think you are a good leader or respect you though they agree you are nice.

    3rd story: This year I just started using the dating app Bumble and the core feature of the app is that women have to send the first message to the men. What I have been receiving are overwhelming short very generic messages. “Hey” “Hi” “Hello Adrian” “Nice pictures” “You’re cute, want to chat?” … No real kind of conversation or ability to hook my interest. These are the type of messages that women have complained for years about men sending, yet now they are doing the same thing. This tells me that writing a great first message is a skill and even though many women like the thought of being in control of who contacts them they also lack the skill to engage and honestly attract a guy with more than their looks. Most people think they are better at conversing engagingly than they really are.

    To me these three stories illustrate something fundamental about women and courting and that is women think being nice is the same as courting a man; which it is not (the 2nd story). And since women never learned how to court they have false assumptions about how to gain the desire of a man (porn). They apply what they “think” men want clumsily and awkwardly (the 1st story). Therefore, ultimately as much as women complain about men only being attracted to them for their looks, many lack the know-how to attract, get, AND hold on to a guy without it-though they don’t realize it (the 3rd story).

    __________
    You said, “Jo’s point is valid – some men get freaked out by too much of a flipped script. Not because they don’t want the desire, but because they are surprised and don’t know how to react. They are not used to being on the defensive, and they panic. But they panic because the experience is just so unusual. Were it not unusual, it would not be frightening.”
    __________

    I see your point but I think it only accounts for a small part of the reason men react this way. As much as it pains me to say I think the real reason men react that way when women approach first (even hot women), or initiate the desire for sex first is because it denotes her value. As Dan Ariely noted, there is research that shows that people place a higher value on potential partners who are harder to get. I think men unconsciously lose respect for or see as less of a catch, women who show they are too into him to soon.

    What caused me to ask the question is that I am trying to find that balance. Going beyond looks & kindness what are the signs of a woman being worth investing in over another? It has to be more than you feel good around her? It has to be more than her showing up to the date with a smile and enthusiasm because I get all of that from friends.

    However, I don’t believe a woman showing a guy she desires him should be limited to or mainly in the realm of sexuality either. I love the advice Evan, and many authors of dating books give women on how to treat a man but it is way to generic and broad (in my opinion). At least when a man courts a woman there are specific tangible things he must do to show he is worth investing in; I haven’t found that for women.

    I went on a LOT of dates before the quarantine and to be honest, character (at least for me) was the WORST measurement of which women to choose because ALL the women I went out with were kind, showed a desire to be there, were enthusiastic, replied to my text or calls in a timely manner, and generally just had great personalities.

    1. 26.1
      Jeremy

      What is it that you WANT, Adrian? Don’t rush the answer. This is among the most difficult of questions. A question that most men don’t answer at all when choosing a spouse, that most men don’t even consider later as their actions lead them to foolishness they don’t fully understand.

      I’ve written before that there are 3 fundamental pillars of a relationship – friendship (connection), attraction (chemistry), and compatibility (lifestyle). These things are all necessary – if any one of them is not present, the tripod will fall. But, much like the way our personalities tend to prioritize one element of PERMA when considering what will make us happy, so do our personalities prioritize one element of the relationship tripod above the others. And this both helps us make a proper choice, and also harms our ability to do so.

      It helps us make a proper choice because if we are the sort of person who, for example, prioritizes connection above the other elements, we will need to find someone with whom we really have a very special type of connection. Really a best friend type situation. If we tend to prioritize chemistry, we will really need a person we find more attractive or have more chemistry with than others we’ve been with. If we tend to prioritize compatibility above the others, we will seek a life-partner, a help-mate, a co-parent, as the primary factor. The knowledge of ourselves regarding what we prioritize helps us choose….

      …But also hinders us. Because of 2 things: 1) That we lose sight of the other 2 factors in light of the one that blinds us. We choose a co-parent without sufficient connection or chemistry. We choose hot chemistry without connection or compatibility. We choose a great friend to whom we’re not really that attracted. And we think that will be ok. Because we think we don’t need the other 2 factors that much. And we’re wrong. Because even if it were true that we don’t need all 3 factors (and it isn’t), our partner likely does. Our partner likely wants to feel the things we don’t from us. If we can’t give that to them, we are not a good partner to them. Even if we think we are, even if we think they are a great partner to us. This is blindness, and it leads to disaster.

      Which element do you prioritize, Adrian? What are you really seeking from a woman, in your heart of hearts? All 3, obviously, but which one? A special connection, above and beyond your other friends and family? A chemistry to warm you with its heat? A compatibility upon which to build a life? Discern which one your heart most desires and prioritize that. And find a woman who prioritizes the same thing. And don’t either of you let yourselves forget the other 2.

      Oh, and BTW, regarding your story of the woman who showed up wearing the trench coat and turned off the man…..see my comment to Jo, above, about men believing women to be low-quality for not needing to be won over, due to toxic messaging. It applies.

      All advice is biased, none is neutral. My advice on paying for dates is not different from Evan’s. We both understand the value of praxeology, what works. I tend to focus more on whys, he tends to focus more on how, what, where, and when (because that perspective is more actionable directly). Most people don’t focus on whys. Whys confuse them, they don’t make them happier. They prefer not to understand. But I have personally found, in my life, that only the understanding of whys was ultimately satisfying, was ultimately actionable. They don’t lead one to bliss….they lead one to balance.

      1. 26.1.1
        jo

        Jeremy, it looks as if we were writing our responses at the same time. Basically, I agree with you, but for one unfortunate point: I don’t think everyone derives as much satisfaction as you do by questioning Why. I sure wish more people did, and could set aside ego momentarily to focus on what makes sense from a perspective of both sides.

    2. 26.2
      Jeremy

      Oh, and to be clearer regarding your second-last paragraph about what women should show you…..If you want chemistry, you need a woman to show you that she feels chemistry for you, and that she communicates it in the way you need it to be communicated. If you need to pursue her in order to feel that you and she both have worth, she has to want to be pursued. If you need her to pursue you in order to feel that you have worth and she values you, you need her to want to pursue you.

      If you want connection, you need her to show that she wants to connect. To contact you about the things you and she both like. To want to share things with you, to have those things be the things you want to share. If you’re interested in books, for example, she will contact you with excitement and talk about books with you. Or music. Or a hobby. Or whatever.

      If you want compatibility, you need her to show that what she wants is what you do, and that she’s not just telling you what you want to hear. Look at her mother. She either wants to be like her mother on some deep level, or wants to be her mother’s opposite. Find out which. Don’t just ask her, look at her behavior.

      If all the women you dated were kind, wanted to be there, were enthusiastic and responsive, and had lovely personalities, what was missing? You’re a good-looking guy, you spend lots of time at the gym, you ego-invest in your appearance. Is what was missing from these women beauty? Hotness? Is that what you are missing? No shame if it is, you just need to admit it to yourself. And evaluate whether you want it to remain so. Because the issue of who pays for the first date has nothing whatsoever to do with money. It has to do with POWER. With who sets the paradigm and who does the majority of compromising. When you’re the hotter one, you’ll find women eager to compromise for you. At least at first, until they adapt. When the woman is hotter, men will compromise. That’s why they’ll pay for dates. That’s why they’ll wait for sex on her schedule. That’s why they’ll let her set the pace. They want her more than she wants them. Were that not true, she would not be able to set the pace. Would have to follow his. Not what most women looking for marriage and children will want, not at all, if they’ve thought it through at all. What do YOU want?

      1. 26.2.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        (Mic drop)

        1. Adrian

          Ok… I didn’t realize I was rap battling Jeremy

    3. 26.3
      jo

      Adrian, what you’re saying (as nicely as possible) exactly confirms my points earlier: that men don’t like it when women pursue, and perceive such women as lower value. Then based on what other men have written here, not only should the women not pursue, but when we’re asked out by men, we should expect to pay for ourselves if not foot the whole bill. What exactly do we get out of this arrangement?

      What’s been left unsaid too frequently is that EVERYONE enjoys pursuing on some level. It’s what we’re meant to do as animals – it’s how we survive, by being proactive, by pursuing. To tell women to push down that very natural side of all humans (not just men), and then to be told we must pay for ourselves on top of that or else we get heaped with the sorts of insults expressed here, is obnoxious.

      I’m not saying that you wrote all that. But that is the sum total of the message being conveyed here, and it is not a kind or considerate one to women as a whole.

      1. 26.3.1
        Jeremy

        If pursuing was natural to women, women would generally pursue. Most do not. If pursuing was natural to men, male fantasy would be chalk-full of men pursuing women. It isn’t.

        Your observation about some (many) men preferring to do the pursuit and shying away when women pursue is accurate. The reasoning of the why is not, IMO. There are men who crave novelty and love the rush of pursuit for the dopamine spike. These men make the absolute worst long-term partners, but whatever. Then there are men who pursue because they feel they have to. They believe about themselves that they prefer it, even as they fantasize about not having to do it, and don’t introspect about the dissonance in their own minds. So why would women extrospect about it? That question is suuuper rhetorical. They don’t.

        The advice (from me, at least), is not for women to pursue men, but to realize that men’s pursuit of you is something for which they want to be rewarded. It isn’t just what they want to do; letting them do it doesn’t even the balance of power. Men complaining that they don’t like the balance of power are not immature whiners. Their complaints are rational. You wrote that all people want to pursue. I’d posit the opposite, Jo: “All people want to BE pursued. By a desirable partner.” The fact that men squash down that natural impulse, and ALSO have to pay for the privilege of doing so, is at least as obnoxious as the reverse, and not terribly kind or considerate to men as a whole 😉

        The one who wants the other more is the one who will pursue. The one who will pay. The one who will do more of the compromising to the paradigm of the other. The woman might find herself doing the lion’s share of the future work….but it’s almost always the work of the paradigm she chose.

      2. 26.3.2
        Bbq

        Jo

        There’s nothing wrong with women pursuing just as long as they aren’t coming on like dracula or trying to be all cocky and rakish about it. It can seem very sweet.

        Nothing unkind has been written, unless it’s unkind to think it’s nonsensical and entitled for someone who you respect as an equal and see as capable as any man of making their own means and who you thought by their own words wanted the same to have a strong feeling of wanting to be payed for by men. From my point of view it seems the unkindness and lack of consideration in this regard is coming from the dinasour attitudes of the women who want to be payed for.

      3. 26.3.3
        Adrian

        Hi Jo,

        I don’t think pursuing is natural for women I think wanting to decide who attempts to courts them is-it is easy to conflate the two.

        Why do you think women on Bumble only say the bare minimum but then expect the man to take the lead even though the app was designed for women to be the pursuers?

      4. 26.3.4
        jo

        Au contraire Jeremy and Adrian: pursuing IS natural to women, as it is to all animals who want to survive. I wonder: who are you to claim that it is not, if you haven’t lived as a woman? How would you know?

        I pursue, and always have. That, rather than going against my NATURE, goes against my TRAINING – as a girl and woman – that we are not supposed to pursue, just because men don’t like it when we do. Do I think every woman is as much a pursuer as I? No, but then, neither is every man. Being true to myself has helped in both my job (why I manage many people older than me, and do a good job of it) and my love life now, with a man who accepts and cherishes the true me.

        While we as humans may differ in how pursuing or passive we are, it’s wrong to tell all men to pursue, and all women not to pursue. Not only that, but the ultimate burden is unequal in this case. Because to survive in this world, not just in dating, it’s absolutely an advantage to learn how to pursue, to be more aggressive. Ask and you shall receive. The asking part is what is difficult for a whole body of women who have been taught NOT to ask, but to hold back, shut up, and wait for someone to approach us or give it to us. Well, they won’t do that if they’ve snatched it up for themselves.

        So men, don’t whine about this! Thank your lucky stars that you’ve been pushed all your lives to pursue mates. Everything you learn in one realm of life benefits you in another. I really meant it when I said earlier that women are disadvantaged, if we know we must be bold at work, but have to completely turn that off in love. That’s why I say, ditch it all. Be your natural self. Ladies, there WILL be men who appreciate your initiative. Men, there ARE ladies who want to pursue you if you will just let us and stop sticking to archaic rules.

  7. 27
    jo

    Apologies that this isn’t directly related to the post, but is anyone else having difficulties loading new comments? I can see from a sidebar that people replied, but can’t see any of the actual replies. Thanks.

    1. 27.1
      Adrian

      Hi Jo,

      I am glad that you made that statement in this comment because I just assumed no one was replying. I’ll go and check my emails to see if there were any replies or new comments because now I just look on the site itself for new comments.

  8. 28
    Bbq

    Jo

    I’m having comments that show up then aren’t there then reappear later.

  9. 29
    Jeremy

    Jo, I haven’t been able to read your most recent comment, as the board is having technical issues (I assume). But I had a thought regarding the issue of men’s negative reaction when women pursue.

    One of the books I like to quote is “Come as you are,” by sex-expert Dr Emily Nagoski. In it, she discusses female sexuality, and the notion that women have a sexual accelerator and a sexual brake (as it were), and that in order for a woman to allow herself to be sexually turned on, 2 things are necessary: The brake must be off, and the accelerator must be on. Problem is, different factors affect the brakes and the accelerator. Brakes are deactivated by comfort, activated by discomfort. Accelerator is activated by arousal. Absence of arousal results in coasting – brake is off, accelerator is off, car coasts at minimal speed, getting nowhere fast.

    I have found Nagoski’s description of female sexuality extremely useful. But what she didn’t much describe is the fact that it applies to males just as much. The reason we tend not to think about male brakes and accelerators is that most of the time, for most men, our brakes are off, and it takes very little to activate our accelerators. We don’t think much about these things because we (largely) don’t need to. But sometimes we do….

    I have personally found myself in sexual situations where arousal was high and yet found myself reacting negatively (or unable to react), and I wondered why. After reflection, I realized it was because I didn’t feel emotionally safe. I was uncomfortable. My brakes were on. And when the brakes are on, it doesn’t matter how hard you push on the accelerator, the car isn’t moving. I believe that the same applies to some of the scenarios you mentioned, where men reacted negatively to women pursuing them. Woman comes to the door in a trenchcoat wearing a skimpy outfit, the man wasn’t expecting it, had a stress reaction of fight/flight (typical to men under stress), and his brakes slammed shut. And he didn’t introspect about why, likely because he was ashamed to – men being expected to be always horny, after all – and so he blamed her. Easy target. Would he have reacted the same if he’d been expecting it? If he hadn’t been surprised or stressed? Is it that men don’t like women to initiate sexually, or is it that men don’t like to be surprised and stressed? And that when women’s brakes are on they can still proceed with sexual activity which sometimes deactivates their brakes…..but when men’s brakes are on they can’t, and tend to get more stressed and shut down?

    There’s what we like, there’s what we want, and then there’s what we didn’t expect. Not the same.

    1. 29.1
      Emily, to

      Jeremy,
      “And he didn’t introspect about why, likely because he was ashamed to – men being expected to be always horny, after all – and so he blamed her. Easy target. Would he have reacted the same if he’d been expecting it?”
      But isn’t surprising him the whole point? Who is going to call and announce beforehand that she’s showing up in a trench coat? I think most women would be crushed if they attempted to seduce a man like that and he shot them down. That would be the last time they’d try that. You had written you like a woman to initiate … well, she’s initiating in this instance. And you wrote once that women don’t give men enough direction for what they like sexually. Well … watch how she seduces you. She shows up in a trench coat? She likes surprises. She’s aggressive with you? She wants you to be aggressive with her.

    2. 29.2
      jo

      Jeremy, while I like your explanation and think it sounds true, in the end, it makes no difference, eh? Whether the men really don’t like women initiating, or men just don’t like being surprised, the practical result is the same: his brakes will slam on, and he will reflexively blame the woman.

      That has to change if we want more equality in dating, including how dates are paid for. Women won’t tolerate this unfair notion of men not ‘allowing’ us to pursue, but then also wanting to stick us with paying for ourselves. Not to say that I haven’t fallen prey to first dates like that, but I rarely (possibly never) accepted a second date after a man acted that way: prodding me to go out with him even if it inconvenienced me, and then insisting on splitting the bill even if he ate and drank much more. If you are asking for a person’s time, you should be prepared to pay for it. Once when that happened, I pointed out that his portion of the bill came out to more than twice mine, and I’d only pay my part. I hate to grub like that, but that was nasty. It does nothing for moving a relationship forward – for women, that just makes it skid to a halt.

      Women’s brakes activate, per your analogy, in the presence of – 1) men having attitudes about women not being allowed to act in ways that they themselves are allowed to act (aka, double standard), and 2) grubbiness and argumentativeness or direct advantage-taking when it comes to paying. One exception: it is okay if the woman asked the man out, then we’d be happy to pay it all. But then you men have to release your brakes: see 1).

      1. 29.2.1
        Jeremy

        Ah, the comments are working again, thanks Evan. Hi Jo. I see what you’re saying in your first paragraph here, but I disagree. Or, at least, I think the issue is more nuanced than you’re implying.

        There is quite a difference between a man who does not want a woman to initiate, versus a man who hopes a woman will initiate sexually but doesn’t like being surprised when he isn’t ready. Saying that women should never initiate because a man’s breaks might slam on is no different than saying that men should never initiate because a woman’s brakes might slam on. Women and men both understand the folly of the latter – nothing would ever get done. Instead of simply initiating willy-nilly, a clever man learns what deactivates a woman’s brakes and does it. A clever woman will do the same for a man, is my point. Rather than relying on him to do all the work. Which he will not appreciate, and will eventually resent. Whether or not she knows it. Whether or not he understands it about himself.

        There is all the difference in the world between a woman jumping at a man and ripping off a trench coat as he walks in the door after a stressful day at work – a thing which he may or may not appreciate, as he may not be in a sexual headspace right then – versus a woman rubbing up against a man as they sit together on the couch cuddling, or in bed together. Very, very different.

        It is a cop-out in the most extreme sense to say that women should let men do all the work because men aren’t always in the mood. Again, seriously, women would never advise men to do the same. Nothing would ever get done.

        Regarding your last paragraph, it’s not that women are not “allowed” to act in ways men are allowed to act. It’s that with equality comes responsibility, and with privilege comes risk. Just as men can act however they want, but women will not always respond to it, so women can act however they want, and any given man may not respond. So she should learn what works for the given man. Not abdicate responsibility to him – and therefore all risk to him – because she doesn’t want to risk the rejection that he risks every day.

  10. 30
    jo

    Thanks to those who shared difficulties of loading comments too. I hope I can read what you wrote later, as this blog always has abundant fascinating comments!

    1. 30.1
      Jeremy

      I guess the comments made on this thread over the past week or so never appeared, since I saw several posted in the right column but was never able to see the full text. Shame. Was an interesting conversation.

  11. 31
    jo

    Jeremy, I completely agree with your last set of comments. Frustratingly, it wasn’t showing up (something is strange about this page), so I responded first to your and Adrian’s earlier comments in which you claim that it isn’t in women’s nature to pursue. I disagreed with that. But these last comments of yours, I agree with.

    The one thing I would ask you to understand is that many of us women not only are fine with taking the responsibility and risk that comes with pursuing, we are eager for it. You as a man may not know that, because you would not believe how strong the conditioning that we shouldn’t do that.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *