Should Women Ask Men Out on First Dates?

Should Women Ask Men Out on First Date

Dear Evan,

What’s the truth? Should women ask men out on first dates? Is it true that a man is “really not that into you” if he’s not asking you out?


Dear Danielle,

You asked me a question, but you really asked me two different questions which have two different answers:

1) Should women ask out men on first dates?

No. No, they should not. Women asking men on first dates can be taken as aggressive, desperate, and masculine. At the very least, it can signify a loss of power. So I wouldn’t recommend that you ever utter the words, “Would you like to go out with me?” to any men.

This doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said before, because God knows, I’m not an advocate of women acting like helpless, shrinking violets. Not at all. But there’s a difference between asking a man out and getting a man to ask you out. I vote strongly for the latter.

There’s a difference between asking a man out and getting a man to ask you out.

So let’s get this straight:

Women asking men out? No.

Women using all their feminine wiles to get men to ask them out? Yes.

So what are these feminine wiles of which I speak? Besides your everyday, run-of-the-mill flirtation, there are TONS of things a woman can do to aid in her own dating process.

Let’s say you’re at a party and you see a cute guy across the room. Your friend tells you to go up and ask him out. But you’ve read this article and you know that he probably won’t respond to such a direct approach. What are you gonna do? How can you take action to make HIM take action?

So, if you see a man  you want to meet, how can you meet him? By putting yourself in the position to meet him. You can cross the room, park yourself seven feet to his diagonal, turn and smile. Now that he’s in your line of sight, he has an opportunity to make eye contact with you. And when men make eye contact with you when you’re smiling, that’s their invitation to come over and introduce themselves.

Result: Woman takes action. Man makes a move. Woman stays in control and keeps her feminine energy.

It’s important to understand this dynamic when we get to Danielle’s next question.

2) Is it true that a man is “really not that into you” if he’s not asking you out?

Yes. Kind of…. See, we men know, and have been conditioned, and may even have the biological imperative, to be the “aggressors”. For better or worse, this is the way society is set up. Men ask out women. We ask them to prom. We ask them to go steady. We ask them if they want to have sex. We ask them if they will marry us. Women are the gatekeepers to what we want. When that energy shifts, it often throws us for a loop.

This is why women shouldn’t push men for sex. Or ask men to commit. Or ask men to marry them. It’s not that they shouldn’t desire these things; it’s that generally, the man asks and the woman says yes/no.

But there are some men who don’t embrace these traditional roles – not because they’re iconoclasts or neo-feminists, but simply because they’re shy or insecure. Unless you give them the key to your heart and half-way unlock the door, they’re never going to get inside. Mostly because they’re afraid of rejection and don’t want to put themselves out there.

If you have the hots for the cute, quiet guy in IT, he may be totally into you, but be too shy to do anything.

So where does this leave a woman with a crush? Depends on the guy. With guys who are alpha male types – confident, secure, good with women – yeah, if he’s not asking you out, he’s just not that into you. Type A men know that they need to ask out women, and are usually adept at doing so. However, if you have the hots for the cute, quiet guy in IT, he may be totally into you, but be too shy to do anything.

That’s when it’s your job to make it easier for him. Not to ask him out, but to make it clear that you’re amenable to being asked out. Being flirtatious, hanging around his desk, joining him for lunch… As long as he knows that his advances will be well-received, he will probably make the advance.

And if he doesn’t?

Just ask him out.

It’s only rejection. Guys deal with it every day.

(And yeah, I’m contradicting myself, but only for shy guys!)

Join our conversation (418 Comments).
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  1. 301

    TOTALLY agree. I really encourage men online to converse, because I go on the possibility they might be shy/not into electronic communication. Sometimes I straight up give them my number, and if they don’t call…well, ok they aren’t into it. I have also asked out guys and usually get rejected, LOL, but it’s worth a shot. My first love, well I asked him out. We had the best relationship I’ve ever had.

  2. 302
    jason cole

    I disagree, but who am I. What does it matter who ask who out? Male or female. Women are going to have to let the ammale know they are interested. Giving signs so forth. What’s the difference in asking someone to go for a walk or expressing your feelings, that means speaking, body language and signs can be hard to read sometimes. I see nothing wrong with a female asking a male out. Or at least verbal saying she is interested in him.

  3. 303
    Jason Cole

    I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t even bother asking women out. To much trouble. Lets say I’m at work. I have to worry about a harassment complaint being filed, possibly resulting in job loss. The hand book is clearly discriminating against men, saying sexual harassment can be in the form of leering at a person. What? If I see something I think is beautiful. I can harass it by looking at it. Okay so I don’t look at women period while I’m at work. I walk around all day with my head down. Especially when a pretty women comes in I go the opposite direction.  ;)…..I’ve tried dating sites. They are horrible for me, I’m not sure about others. Never can tell who I was talking to. One time my mom tricked me, made a fake profile. Needless to say that didn’t go so well. Church isn’t a good place either. I’ve talked with a few women there they seem to think its not a good place. I don’t go to bars often but have heard that’s the worst place to find a good women. Back to the point. Id rather a women verbally say she is interested in me before I ask her out.

    1. 303.1
      Karmic Equation

      Then you are going to die a lonely bachelor.
      The reality is that men get rejected up front (e.g., girl says no to a date) whereas women get rejected after dates (guy disappears). As much as it may sting for you to get rejected up front, at least you have closure. Most women yearn for that, but few get it. So men are lucky in this sense.
      Just as men need to be attracted to a woman to ask her out, women need to be attracted to a man before she accepts a date. You don’t mention your looks, so I’m going to assume you’re average looking. My suggestion is that if you’re thin, buff up; if you’re overweight, lose it. Head for the gym and put on some muscle and develop a six-pack ab and those lovely hip flexors that only men can develop. lol.
      If your face is plain, you can get plastic surgery, too, you know. Men can have PS just like women. This might be better than a six-pack ab, because, for most women, we need a face we can envision kissing.
      And then you’ll face rejection less, both online and IRL. Women don’t tend to reject lunch dates with cute guys from work. And online, good looking guys get approached by women (e.g., written to) whereas the average looking guy, not so much. And in the meantime, while you’re working out to get in shape, write a better profile. You should use Evan’s e-Cyrano service. I highly recommend it. Most men’s profiles are poor. And the ones who like to write tend to write wayyyyyy tooooo much!
      And lastly, if you DON’T want to go to the gym or get P.S., then you need to evaluate your own league and approach women within it. If you’re really a 5 but knocking yourself out trying to date 8’s you’re not going to be successful. Start writing to 5’s and keep dropping the number until someone responds. If 5’s respond quickly, you can try for 6’s. Works in both directions. You just need to find out which women find you attractive and then go date those women. There is a lid for every pot 🙂

      1. 303.1.1
        Jason Cole

        Karmic I squat 450 and bench press 300. I have a 6 pack of a Greek God. So really don’t think the GYM is going to save from my loney exile.

  4. 304
    Jason Cole

    Plastic surgery please. You shouldn’t even say something like that to someone. God made my face my body. If a women can’t love it done it. No one should have plastic surgery. Shame on you for pushing it!!!

    1. 304.1
      Karmic Equation

      Women very rarely accuse good looking men of sexual harassment — even if he were oftentimes, unless he’s a douche. So if you’re afraid of being charged with sexual harassment, then you need to connect the dots.
      It’s not shameful for women to have P.S. if she wants to. Most celebrities do, male and female. So it’s ok for guys too.
      So let me clarify further, IF you have a great body BUT your face is less than optimal then EVEN great body may not get you the chicks you want. You need to have a kissable face OR you need to date within your league. It’s all within your control.
      Love your one liner, Evan. Made me laugh and spit out my tea.

      1. 304.1.1

        Me too Karmic 🙂

        1. Karmic Equation

          Great minds think alike, eh, Tom?

  5. 305
    jason cole

    We are total off subject. The subject was should women ask men out. Not can Jason get a date. Excuse me for explaining why I don’t ask women out and feel it wouldnt be awkward for a women to ask a man out. 

  6. 306
    jason cole

    Excuse me I didn’t read the hole article Evan wrote. This site is not good for a not so smart phone.

  7. 307
    Jason Cole

    Karmic all I can think about is Ric Flair chopping you in the chest and yelling wow. If you are a male? So I must go blog elsewhere.

    1. 307.1
      Karmic Equation

      I’m all woman, hon.
      Ric Flair is no match for me! hahaha
      I just have this uncanny ability to think like a guy. And I have full access to all my emotions, like most women. So not only can I feel all my emotions, I can also analyze them. And I’m hot (or so I’ve been told, IRL, not just online) So I’m quite lethal. Beware! 😉

  8. 308
    Ric Flair

    Nothing funny at all about what Evan said. 

    1. 308.1
      Karmic Equation

      Welcome back from the dead!

  9. 309
    Ric Flair

    Well thank you for clarifying that. I appreciate your help with my relsationship status. You should be more confident with those I’m hot remarks though. Have a good day

    1. 309.1
      Karmic Equation

      Well, “hotness” needs 3rd party corroboration. If I think I’m hot and no one else does, am I really hot? The answer would be no. I would be delusional.
      And we all know that men online will tell a woman she’s hot to try to get dates 🙂 
      And we know that both men and women often photoshop their profile pics, sometimes so much so, they don’t even resemble them IRL upon meeting. — Men I’ve had dates with have disclosed this…and I myself have experienced it with men, although, most men don’t shop their photos, per se. The most deceived I’ve felt was when a man used pics of himself 50# ago or have pics with dark hair and when I met him he was all gray. NONE of their photos were recent, but since they both had MULTIPLE photos, I thought they were legit. Not cool.
      Hence, I qualified my hot statement to show that I’m not being delusional 🙂

  10. 310
    Ric flair

    Well my mirror qualified me so. :p

    1. 310.1
      Karmic Equation

      But you could be delusional. Remember, women like ABOVE the neck looks more than BELOW the neck bods. I can’t tell you how many not-hot men post close ups of their hot bods and then when I see their face go, not good. Jowly, craggy faces. Even Led Zeppelin like beards. Not for me. Might be for other women, but doubt it. Bods were rocking though. But the face couldn’t save it. There is NO equivalent in women-speak for “But-her face…” Great bods help an above average face. But won’t help a below-average face. In this sense women are lucky. But that woman needs have really good guy-dar, or she faces being used and becoming embittered or end up in the wrong kinds of relationships.

  11. 311

    Evan and to everyone else-Why does it seem like so many men online are complaining about women NOT making the first move? For every article that says that men should ask women out (which I agree), there’s someone else saying that women should ask men out.  I came across an article saying that men are lazy, why should men do all of the work, and that a woman asking a man out shows confidence. But, I’ve seen so many examples of women chasing men that don’t work.  When men say that they like it when a woman asks them out, they don’t tell you that they will actually commit or fall in love with that woman. If you’re getting hit on a woman that you don’t like, you’re just going to feel awkward.  At least a man asking the woman out shows that he genuinely likes her, and put enough energy into it.

  12. 312

    Speaking as a man, I am not emasculated in the slightest when a woman demonstrates enough interest in me to ask me out.  Quite the opposite, in fact; it is a major turn-on for me because I know for certain that she is into me, she’s likelier to be compatible, and I will be bolder as a result.  I like decisive, assertive (not domineering) women.

    To be frank, I think encouraging women to “lead” men into asking them out reinforces social roles based on deception that are quite poisonous, and  stereotypes that we should be trying to dump.  In my view, a society that is truly based on equality is one where either gender is free to initiate a relationship. 

    Men who have a problem with being asked out have insecurities (such as issues of control) to work out, in my view.  And for the record, I have asked women out who have interested me, as well.  I think it’s only fair that women take the initiative and ask men out. too.

    1. 312.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      It’s not about being emasculated, Geoff. It’s about the simple fact that most men got the memo that if they are attracted to a woman, they should ask her out. If he doesn’t ask her out, that would usually be an indicator of his lack of interest. Thus, it’s not that women can’t ask out men; it’s that, for the most part, they shouldn’t HAVE to.

      1. 312.1.1

        This is a bit of a re-hash of a disagreement I had with Evan on a related topic of women offering the first kiss.
        Evan, I have a ton of respect for you and the advice you offer, and I agree with much of what you write.  But I think you are off-base here.  You are committing what is known as “apex fallacy,” wherein you assume that the behavior of the top 10-20% of men is indicative of the behavior of 80-90% of men.
        The top 10-20% of men, the “alpha” men, the men who have effortless success with women (as you seem to have had in your younger days) are the ones that “got the memo” that THEY should be the ones to initiate.  The remaining majority of men are more self-conscious, and would LOVE it if women would occasionally initiate or show overt interest.
        Let’s temporarily flip the script.  Rather than asking whether women should ask men out on dates, let’s ask whether women should ask for raises at work.  “Men” seem to have gotten the memo that if they want something (like a raise at work), they need to ask for it.  However, many women have not gotten that memo.  Instead, they adopt a passive attitude and often get passed over.  Lesson learned – if you want something, ask for it.
        I believe the same applies in the world of dating.  If a woman is interested in a man, she need not adopt a passive attitude.  She can take risks and act overtly.  And 80-90% of men will not see her as too masculine (though I admit, the 10-20% that might see her so are the ones SHE is most likely to be interested in…)

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Blind spots are funny. You’re going to this length to defend the beta worldview – and you use the example that if women want raises (or men), they should ask. The onus is on them. You’re right.

          And the onus is on your 80% of men to ask as well, instead of saying that feminine women who get asked out all the time by men “should” ask them out instead. Doctor, heal thyself.

        2. jeremy

          I don’t understand your argument here, Evan.  The onus to ask is on the one who “wants”.  In the example of work, the woman who wants a raise asks for it.
          In the example of a man who wants to ask a woman out, he should ask (I agree with you).
          In the example of a woman who wants to ask a man out, she should ask.  I agree with what you wrote in your article that she might first try to position herself such that he might do the asking, but in the absence of success in that regard, she should ask, rather than feel rejected because he did not pick up on her covert messaging.

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          And yet, the easiest thing you can do as a man is to start asking women out, instead of complaining that they’re not asking you out. You keep coming back to me with what women are doing wrong; doesn’t that sound a bit like women complaining that men have sex without commitment but that they “shouldn’t”? This really isn’t that hard.

          Women WANT you to ask them out. They don’t like having to be the aggressor, put themselves on the line, all the uncomfortable stuff that guys have to do. You’re telling them that they “should”. I’m telling them that there are enough guys who will ask them out that they don’t need to start approaching men. I stick with my assertion. A woman can go her whole life without asking out a man and be perfectly happy. You’re pretty much saying that you want women to act like men, instead of accepting the idea that they WANT to be courted.

          My message remains the same to men and women: try changing to more effective behaviors instead of complaining that the other gender should change to accommodate your insecurities.

        4. Tom10

           @ Geoff #312
          “Speaking as a man, I am not emasculated in the slightest when a woman demonstrates enough interest in me to ask me out.  Quite the opposite, in fact; it is a major turn-on for me because I know for certain that she is into me…”

          Yes, but does she know for certain that you are into her?

          To be frank, I think encouraging women to “lead” men into asking them out reinforces social roles based on deception that are quite poisonous, and  stereotypes that we should be trying to dump”.

          I don’t think Evan has any interest in reinforcing deceptive social roles or stereotypes; rather what are effective dating techniques for women.

          “In my view, a society that is truly based on equality is one where either gender is free to initiate a relationship.” 

          But in our society either gender is free to initiate a relationship – who is stopping women initiating relationships? What concerns this blog, however, is not social equality; rather what are effective dating techniques for women.

          I think it’s only fair that women take the initiative and ask men out. too.”

          It might be only fair, but unfortunately fairness has no place in dating. Effectiveness, however, does.

          @ Jeremy #312.1.1
          I normally agree with your comments Jeremy but I have to agree with Evan on this issue.

          Here’s the problem: let’s say that women get your memo and start asking men out en-masse. Take a guess at which guys they’ll ask out? Well, most likely they won’t go for the self-conscious “beta” guys; they’ll go for the hot 20% of course. And what will these guys do when faced with all these women asking them out? Rather than perceiving them as masculine or feeling emasculated, most likely they’ll simply sleep with her for a while, whilst still looking for the woman he really wants; the woman he wants so much that he’ll ask her out himself.

          The reason men and women should take different approaches to dating is because men and women behave differently. Women, usually, don’t string men along for sex the way that men often do to women. Therefore when a guy asks out a women and she responds positively she most likely considers him as relationship potential. When a woman asks a guy out she has no such assurances.

          As Evan said, instead of hoping for women to change and start asking guys out; the 80% of guys would be better served forcing themselves to come out of their shells and ask women out (or, “up the alpha” as I think you put it before).  

        5. Nathan

          Overall, I believe it’s healthy to offer people the opportunity to experiment with all this stuff. Frankly, I don’t care if the majority of men do the asking, and the majority of women do the accepting. If some strategy isn’t working, then break the damned script and see what happens. If a woman is really into a guy, and the positioning herself to get asked out hasn’t worked, then flip the script. This happens more than some of you think it does anyway, it just doesn’t get much attention. The same goes for men who are shy or not outgoing. If all your efforts to get asked out are failing, then start asking women out. Again, the arguments that a given approach works for the majority, and therefore everyone should do what works for the majority, doesn’t fly for me. I’d encourage experimenting for those who aren’t having success, not conformity. If the experimenting happens to go along with the majority, that’s totally fine. But the experimenting framing, in my view, is very different from telling people to just act like other women or men do.

          “Therefore when a guy asks out a women and she responds positively she most likely considers him as relationship potential. When a woman asks a guy out she has no such assurances.” Tom, in my experience, this isn’t true. I had literally dozens of 2nd and 3rd dates over the years, and there were plenty of times when the woman I was out with either wanted nothing more than a causal relationship, or didn’t have any idea what she wanted, or simply wanted to date, but never had any clear “you’re relationship material” notions. While it might be true that women are overall more “relationship oriented,” this doesn’t easily translate into the conclusion you’re offering here. In my view, the reality is that there are no assurances that getting a positive response to an ask will translate into the other person “really being into you” or seeing you “as relationship material.” Asking is a risk, no matter who does it.

          What I find interesting is that there are a couple of men at the end of this thread disagreeing with the suggestion that men should be the ones who ask women out. In one case, Jason has tried asking women out in different places, and it hasn’t worked. Telling him to keep doing the same thing and suck up the rejection is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Maybe he could try expanding his activity circle, or a new online dating site. Maybe if he’d let go of the past rejections, and have a more positive attitude about the whole thing, he might have better luck (whether or not he asks women out). Who knows. In the other case, Geoff and Jeremy are  saying they like women asking them out. Now, if both of them are having a hard time finding a woman who will do this, then perhaps it’s time to experiment with doing the asking out.

          Overall, after nearly a decade on and off of online dating experience, I find a lot of these hard and fixed conversations kind of funny. The fluidity and flexibility of the internet has broken down a lot of the formalities. One can argue that it’s gone too far, but that’s not the point here. What is is that it was totally easy enough for some woman I sent an e-mail to through dating site X to write back and suggest meeting up. This happened to me plenty of times. At the same time, it’s also true that shyer men can do the same without feeling the same level of fear that comes with an in person ask. I used to be shyer, but got to the point where I didn’t fear it much anymore. However, I still had women sometimes stepping up and asking me out first. While much of this applies to just online dating, I think some of it has also seeped into the rest of the dating world. Younger folks are just as likely to ask each other via text and/or IM as they are in person.

        6. Tom10

          @ Nathan
          “Tom, in my experience, this isn’t true. I had literally dozens of 2nd and 3rd dates over the years, and there were plenty of times when the woman I was out with either wanted nothing more than a causal relationship….In my view, the reality is that there are no assurances that getting a positive response to an ask will translate into the other person “really being into you” or seeing you “as relationship material.” Asking is a risk, no matter who does it.”

          Fair point Nathan; in dating there are no assurances. But there are odds, and getting good at dating involves learning how to play the odds and tilt them in our favor. Tilting the odds decreases potential risk (and hits to our self-esteem), whilst simultaneously increasing potential success (and boosts to our self-esteem).

          You have agreed that women are overall probably more “relationship oriented” than men. So when a guy asks a woman out; the odds are high(er) that she is at least considering a potential relationship by saying yes.

          Conversely, although men are less relationship oriented, they are more sex oriented (in the initial stages at least). So when a woman asks out a man; the odds might actually be quite low that by saying yes he is at least considering a potential relationship – as the guy is initially considering the potential sex on offer. These odds are not in the interest of a woman looking for a relationship.

          Nathan, although I admire the way you advocate different approaches to dating, I do think dating is a game of odds that are based on real gender differences; which is why I usually agree with Evan’s dating strategies. I know that there are no assurances, but we can form sound dating strategies based on broad generalizations.

          @ Karmic
          Thanks, I love ya too 🙂

        7. Nathan

          “Nathan, although I admire the way you advocate different approaches to dating, I do think dating is a game of odds that are based on real gender differences; which is why I usually agree with Evan’s dating strategies. I know that there are no assurances, but we can form sound dating strategies based on broad generalizations.” Tom, I tend to think differences in-group are much wider than those between group. Dating advice usually gives far too much attention to differences between men and women (actual and imagined), and not nearly enough attention to in-group differences.
          Some broad generalizations can be useful early on in the dating process, but they can’t take you very far into any actual relationship with someone. In addition, I don’t think it’s much of a “win” if you have more “success” getting a foot in the door with a lot of people you aren’t really a good long term match for. If your seeking a long term relationship, just having more and more options isn’t really the goal. The goal is to be attractive to someone in a much smaller pool of matches that actually fit you. If learning to ask someone out helps a person be more successful in that smaller pool, then I’d support that strategy. 

          For me, a man in the middle of the alpha-beta spectrum, it was useful to learn how to ask a woman out. At the same time, I didn’t always need it. Especially when doing online dating. For a much shyer, more passive man, it actually might be better in the long run if he either learns to offer a soft ask (such as through e-mail), or develops other traits that a more alpha woman who wants to lead (yes, they do exist, my grandmother is one of them) will be attracted to enough to take a risk on. Go read a blog like Dr.NerdLove and you’ll see plenty of men who fit this profile. If I were to answer the question “Should women ask men out on first dates,” I’d say it depends upon what you seek in the long term. Women who seek a relationship leader probably shouldn’t ask men out because the kind of men they seek usually will do that already. Whereas if a woman seeks an equal playing field in terms of leadership and/or wants to lead, then perhaps asking men out sometimes is a good idea.

          Regardless, in my experience, what made me a better dater (regardless of long term outcome) was developing the skills to better connect with the individual I was dating. So that even if we weren’t a long term (or even short term) match, the experience of going out was a positive and enjoyable one. Basic kindness, respect, being a good listener, sharing about yourself, having humor and lightness, paying attention to specific details about your date – all of this in my experience trumped things like who asked who out, who paid for dates, who called or wrote who first after a date, etc. What I’m saying is that once I put more of my energy into developing the skills and qualities that make a great long term partner, I found my overall experience of the process much more enjoyable. And the quality of dates I met much higher.


        8. Michael Ejercito

          Here is something that does not make sense. tom claims that women would only go for the hot 20% if they were the ones asking men out on dates. And yet, in real life, how do women outside the hot 20% manage to get into relationships, if men only ask out the hot 20%?

        9. Tom10

          @ Michael
          “how do women outside the hot 20% manage to get into relationships, if men only ask out the hot 20%?”
          Michael, why is there a necessity for a blog for women looking for love? Why do women need relationship coaches? Why do we read about so much angst here from women looking for relationships?
          Newsflash: women outside of the hot 20% struggle to find satisfactory relationships because they have deal with so many men lusting after the same hot women.
          But this is where it gets interesting: the top 20% of men don’t behave the same as the top 20% of women. The top 20% of women only want their male equals (and will reject men they consider beneath them), whereas the top 20% of men are often more than happy to sleep with plenty of women who they don’t consider their equal (i.e. women in the 80%). Which is why I don’t think it’s sensible for women to ask men out for the first date. Make sense now?

        10. Michael Ejercito

          Tom,  are you implying that, on average, women are more judgmental than men?

        11. Tom10

          @ Michael
          “Tom,  are you implying that, on average, women are more judgmental than men?”
          Well “judgmental” is the wrong word, rather that they are more discriminating. And yes, I’m saying that when it comes to understanding extramarital sexual behavior that men *are* more indiscriminate when it comes to casual sex. And there are scientific studies to prove my claim. And this is the reason that women asking men out is a poor dating strategy in my opinion.

      2. 312.1.2
        Karmic Equation


        I’ve said it before, but I feel I must reiterate. Men are the ones who control the depth of the relationship. He’s the one who gets to decide whether the relationship is “sexclusive”; he’s the one who gets to decide if they marry.
        The “price” of being able to control that decision is to be the one who “has to” ask the woman out first. That’s a very small price to pay for that kind of control. If a man is a player (or wanna be player) he can ask a woman out, have sex with her, give her the feeling that they’re exclusive, but because that talk has never taken place, he continues to date others, while the woman feels that she’s on track to–or is already in–an exclusive relationship. And when a “relationship” is in this phase, the man gets the benefits of being treated as a bf without actually having to be sexclusive. He lies by omission. And all he had to do was ask her out. That’s a lot of benefits for a small price.
        Let’s say a woman DOES ask a man out first. She has NO CLUE if the guy is accepting because he likes her or because he just wants to get laid. And this ego-stroke to the guy, ultimately cedes over to him her ONLY power at the beginning of a relationship, which is decide if she likes him as much as he likes her. We all know that once a woman accepts that first date (if they met IRL, online dating is a different animal), odds are she is interested enough in pursuing a relationship with him. EVERY man knows this. So once a woman accepts, she’s played the only card she has.
        What men like you, Geoff, are asking women to do is play that card out of turn, just because it would help you play yours. There are rules in poker for a reason. There are “rules” in dating for reason. To assure that there is an even-playing field for all the players. And giving up the ONLY control she has in a relationship, which is whether one can begin at all, is like a woman showing her cards out of turn, which helps everyone else at the table except herself. I think you will agree, that is playing poker extremely poorly and assures that she will lose. A woman asking a man out on a first date is equivalent to showing her cards out of turn and for no reason. 
        Believe me, if a woman could ensure that she “wins” if she shows her cards out of turn, e.g., control the depth of the relationship, whether the relationship becomes exclusive, whether the relationship becomes marriage—you can bet that women wouldn’t have any issues showing those cards whenever the mood strikes her.
        You and I know that she’ll NEVER win at poker playing this way. So why are you asking her to play poker this way? Because YOU want to win.
        Sorry, that’s a stupid move for women. And it’s not even a fair thing to ask. You would never ask a table full of men to play poker this way. Why would you ask a woman to play poker this way? Do you need to win that badly?
        For a man to ask a woman out first is just playing fair. Anything else, and the man is asking to change the dating rules to his advantage, when ALREADY has practically ALL the advantages.
        P.S. Tom10, I love ya. This statement is it in a nutshell:
        “Rather than perceiving them as masculine or feeling emasculated, most likely they’ll simply sleep with her for a while, whilst still looking for the woman he really wants; the woman he wants so much that he’ll ask her out himself.”


        1. Geoff

          Thanks, everyone, for your views.

          @Karmic Equation:  I found this sentence interesting, because it has not been my experience:  “We all know that once a woman accepts that first date, odds are she is interested enough in pursuing a relationship with him.”

          When I was in university I did manage to  score a series of dates with a handful of women (i.e., getting to a second or subsequent date – as background I was one of those well-mannered nice guys who had lots of female friends, but had great trouble parlaying that into relationships), and each time I thought I was doing well. 
          I was wrong, of course.  In one case the woman I was dating was also dating someone on student council, and dropped me after four or five dates (she was open about it, at least).  In another, she decided she wasn’t into me and ended it.  Regardless of my own role in how those relationships ended, the lesson I took from that (those were my first dating experiences) was that just because a woman agrees to go out on a date with you, that doesn’t necessarily mean she’s *really* interested in you.  You might just be a stand-in until someone better (to her) comes along.  This is why I do appreciate being asked out by a woman.
          Just to be clear, I’m not trying to shoot you down or anything.  Your remark made me think, it dredged up some memories, and gave me an opportunity to clarify why I believe what I do.  Now that I am single again after a 15+ year relationship, and determined to find a better match, I’m trying to develop a more open mind to approaching dating.  These discussions are helpful.

        2. jeremy

          Gotta say, I don’t agree with your argument at all.
          You wrote: “We all know that once a woman accepts that first date (if they met IRL, online dating is a different animal), odds are she is interested enough in pursuing a relationship with him.”

          Respectfully, Karmic, this isn’t true at all.  If a woman accepts a man’s request for a date, the only thing this signals to the man is that she considers him attractive enough to consider dating him – not that she is necessarily interested in a relationship with him, nor that she necessarily will want to have sex with him.  She would need to get to know him first to know that.  Which is EXACTLY what a man can assume if a woman asks him out – that she considers him attractive enough to ask out on a date, nothing else.
          You write “Men are the ones who control the depth of the relationship. He’s the one who gets to decide whether the relationship is “sexclusive”; he’s the one who gets to decide if they marry.”

          This is also patently untrue – or at least incomplete.  Men and women each control the aspect of the relationship to which their default answer is “No.”  For (most) women, that aspect is sex.  For most women, the default for sex is “no”, while for men the default is “yes.”  Thus, WOMEN control the depth of the relationship in the dimension of sexuality – they control what happens and when.
          For (most) men, that aspect is commitment (ie. marriage).  For most men, the default for commitment is no, while for women it is yes.  There are many obvious reasons for this (which I won’t get into unless you want me to), but the fact is that the ONLY aspect of relationships that men control is whether or not they want to get married.  Once they commit to marriage, they totally lose control in that dimension.
          This is not a game of poker, Karmic.  It is not a zero-sum game.  It is simply a question of who wants what.  If the man wants a date with a woman, he asks her – and he assumes the risk that she might say no.  If a woman wants a date with a man, she can either ask him (as I suggest), or flirt passively (as Evan suggests) – either way, she takes some risk of rejection. 
          But the question of who asked whom out first is completely and totally irrelevant to the power structure of any future relationship that may ensue.  What IS relevant to that power structure is the default position of each individual on any particular aspect in question.  The one who controls sex is the one who wants it least.  The one who controls marriage is the one who wants it least.  The one who controls sexual exclusivity is the one who wants it least.  And what makes a good match?  When both parties want all of these things in somewhat equal measure.


        3. Karmic Equation

          You’re arguing semantics. Few women date to “just date”. Most women date to get into relationships. So, I stand my by words, if a woman agrees to a date with a man, she sees you as potential relationship material. That said, if while dating you she finds out you’re not actually relationship material, then the fact she doesn’t want a relationship with you is because she deems you’re not relationship-worthy, not because she dated you to “just date” or bed you without having any relationship thoughts in mind.
          Men date to get sex. We all know that one doesn’t need a relationship to get sex. Sometimes “dating” a woman often enough will get him sex. But we all know that just because he’s dating her and having sex with her, doesn’t mean they’re “in a relationship”. That only happens when HE agrees to sexclusivity. (Sure some women don’t want relationships, but those are the exceptions, not the rule).
          With regards to my statements about men controlling sexclusivity and marriage, again, you’re arguing semantics.
          Women can’t have sexclusivity if the man doesn’t agree to it. He controls whether they’re sexclusive. (Again going by the rule, not the exceptions).
          Most never-married women want to marry, but just because she wants to, does it mean he will marry her? Nope.
          So if we agree that sexclusivity and marriage are the goals of most women, and she can’t reach them without his consent, she doesn’t control how deep that relationship goes. He does.
          Yes, women control access to sex. But we all know that having sex doesn’t equal “relationship” to men. So women controlling access to sex only means she controls access to sex within whatever type of relationship or non-relationship she’s in. The GUY determines the DEPTH of the relationship as defined by sexclusivity and marriage. Women control the TYPE of relationship she’s in: booty call, f*ck buddy, sex-in-relationships only. Sex is sex. “Depth” has nothing to do with it, well, yeah, physically it does, but that’s not the type of depth we’re talking about here.

      3. 312.1.3

        Well, I disagree with you Evan. I am a woman and DON’T LIKE to be asked out. First because many are players and second because I’m not interested on the guy who is interested in me. It’s my nature.

        It’s annoying, uncomffortable, I’m shy but at least tried. The worse is to be passive and acting like a damsel in distress waiting for the guy to make a move. I’m a person who has feelings and will, I’m not a pretty submissive doll needing a guy who wants a trophy girlfriend. No sir. If I like someone, why not try it? If I keep waiting, I could be end alone or stading with a guy I don’t want/like/love/ feel nothing.

        I can’t stand players but I don’t like being courted either. Most friends I had I made the first move in 90% times, if I waited, I would be friendless forever and wouldn’t talk to anyone. Most of times men don’t come to me, a few that did I wasn’t into them, people don’t go talk to me into being friends either, so I come to them. That’s simple. Why I have to be passive just because I’m a woman?

        I know I’m an exception but I don’t care. I like being me. I don’t like this stupid gender rule.

        I don’t think I would be happy being asked out or an annoying guy chasing after me just for his ego (I won her heart! Ha!), I want to be with the man I like not the guy who plays a role or a game to me. This isn’t love to me,  it’s just ego game.

        Jeremy is right, women can’t have feelings and conquer a guy she wants? She must to play like a trophy girlfriend for a guy to win her? She must be with a guy who plays the best game not the one she’s into? Come on!

        I don’t know other women but I seriously hate it. Some women think being asked feeds their ego, I don’t.

        Unless the guy I like do it (so the luck works). Otherwise, a big no.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Great. Keep doing what you’re doing. As long as it’s working for you, I am 100% on Team Carrie.

  13. 313
    Perry Rose

    I’m sorry, Evan, but you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried.
    There are  a lot of men, including me, who would love it if a woman approached us for a change.
    “I was going to go over to (insert place here) sometime this week. Would you like to join me?” is all it takes. 
    Ladies, DO approach us. DO start a conversation. DO ask us out.
    Only little boys wouldn’t like it.   

    1. 313.1

      Thank you. I’m glad to see a man who’s secure enough in himself not to feel threatened by being asked out on a date. I’m sorry, but that’s just sad.

      1. 313.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        Men who won’t approach women are LAZY not secure.
        Being not turned down by any man you’ve asked out affirms that you’re an attractive woman. And straight single men will rarely turn down dates with attractive women. But if you ask him out, you’re already telling him you want to have sex with him.
        I don’t agree that men have to “earn” sex with a woman, but he doesn’t need it handed to him on a silver platter either. A little mystery goes a long way. You ask a man out, he believes it’s a done deal. Assuming you’re asking out alphas, that is. For betas, this would work better and they’re less likely to think you’re going to bed them, as they are insecure to start with, which is why they don’t ask you out first.

        1. Al

          I don’t play games with men. I tell them what I’m interested in, what I hope to give and gain from our association and I expect them to be mature enough to do the same. If I want to sleep with someone I will be clear about that. If I want to wait I will be equally clear and they’d better be able to comprehend what I’m saying.
          I think all of this hinting around, pretending, assuming and side stepping talking about relationships is juvenile and I simply don’t have time for that. Luckily, most men I encounter seem to feel the same way.
          Also, sex is not the only way a woman can have an air of mystery. Some women are very capable of seducing a man sexually while remaining a force to be reckoned with in their own right. I’ve found that to be far more effective in keeping a man’s interest than all this simpering and eyelash fluttering. I’m passionate, strong, straightforward and independent and I expect men to rise to the same level. Shouldn’t we all expect adults to be able to effectively communicate this stuff?

        2. Al

          Sorry, that last post should have said “Denying sex isn’t the only way for a woman to maintain an air of mystery.”
          Maybe I’m unusual in this (though most of my friends are pretty much the same) but if I want to have sex with a man I intend for him to know that. Why would I want to pretend otherwise? How else are we supposed to get the deed done? I’m really not in favor of the whole, women should pretend not to want it so the man can feel like the big studly predator. That’s too close to “Your lips say no, but your eyes say yes” for my taste.

        3. Karmic Equation

          HI Al,
          You’ve obviously never read any of my posts in other threads. I’m an advocate for women having sex whenever SHE wants to and not wait until she’s “extracted” commitment from him. All my relationships, with the exception of with my first bf, all began with NSA sex. One even began with ONS.
          Mystery is definitely more than about sex. But you don’t have any, Al. You put it all out there. He doesn’t get the FUN of peeling your layers and discovering a new you every few months. While mystery is certainly NOT about sex, it definitely is NOT letting a guy know where he stands every minute of every day. You turn a fun process into a business proposition. Not fun. And you end up setting a not-fun precedent the guy. But maybe you’re ok with that and the guy is ok with that because you’re both fuddy-duddies.
          But I seriously doubt that. Courtships are supposed to be fun for both genders. Skip it and bypassing something special.

        4. Al

          Oh, I think you’ve misunderstood me. I’m usually told I have more than enough mystery because I’m somewhat inscrutable. Men often complain that they don’t know where they stand with me. I most definitely don’t “put it all out there,” it’s just that what I hold back isn’t necessarily the sex act itself. That’s just surfacy stuff. It’s the deeper layers that matter. A man can get sex elsewhere and he will if a woman denies him long enough. If you get him wondering about what’s going on in your head, worried about how you FEEL about him, that’s when he’s hooked. I don’t do this on purpose, by the way, I’m just guarded, but I have noticed the trend.
          The bottom line is that no one likes desperation, but that’s very different from being sexually available, especially if you tend to be a very sexual person by nature. Sex isn’t necessarily intimacy. I may want to have sex with a man but that certainly doesn’t mean I want to be committed to him.

  14. 314

    1) Should women ask out men on first dates?
    No. No, they should not. Women asking men on first dates can be taken as aggressive, desperate, and masculine. At the very least, it can signify a loss of power.”
    Any woman who doesn’t have the nerve to risk rejection is not worth dating in my book.

  15. 315

    Nancy, I met a wonderful  man and gave him my number. After a couple of months, he called and asked to  meet for a drink. I had a wonderful time. Some time past so I called and asked him out. He said “yes” immediately.  2 years later were still in contact growing. I was the aggressor and it worked out for me. He said he was flattered I asked him out.

  16. 316

    Evan, I love your advice.  It makes so much sense to me and it frustrates me to see so many women resist it.  The men who want the women to do the heavy lifting ” let her do the work. Always hint that you are interested. Never confirm it. Let HER wonder”- that just makes me laugh!  I guess we weed each other out because if a man doesn’t make it VERY clear he is interested in me I cut bait quickly.
    I used your advice and the great guy I’ve been dating for 6 weeks and I had sex for the first time 2 nights ago and last night he asked me to be his girlfriend!  So thank you

  17. 317

    So how do you know if they are type A or shy when you find them online? I almost never initiate conversation online or ask guys out unless it’s someone I really really am interested in. Sometimes I feel like guys are dropping the hint but they take forever to actually ask.  

  18. 318

    This makes the prospect of meeting “the one” very scary, I read the story, I read some the comments, and now I am sufficiently confident that I will indeed remain a eunuch for the rest of my life. Matters of the heart can be very sensitive, and I found that the world of dating/courtship is very unstable, what works for some will not work for others… Am I going to subject myself to the risk of heartbreak every time I notice someone and they don’t reciprocate my feelings/attention? I can’t say i have tried every avenue to get someone to notice me, but at this point I am exhausted… 

  19. 319

    Oh good grief! Are we living in the 50’s? Seriously? I ask guys out whenever I feel like it and I’ve never been turned down. Not once, ever. Most guys totally appreciate a woman who doesn’t play stupid head games. Besides, if a guy “wouldn’t respond well” to being asked out he’s a weak POS that I wouldn’t want to date anyway. Grow a pair for crying out loud and don’t be so afraid of women!

    1. 319.1
      Karmic Equation

      Just curious.
      How long were your relationships with the men you asked out?
      How many of your relationships of more than 3 months started with your asking a guy out?

      1. 319.1.1

        Well, my 17 year marriage began with me both asking him out initially AND being the one to propose marriage. Most of my relationships prior to him lasted between one and two years. However, I was fresh out of college and wasn’t terribly committed to anyone before I met my ex husband. All of my prior relationships were ended by me, not because the guy was upset that I’d been the one to ask him out.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Al, you have masculine energy. It’s not a bad thing. Just know that the best fit for you guy is the passive/feminine guy who prefers that you ask him out/propose, instead of expecting confident/masculine guys to feel good that you’re doing their job.

        2. Al

          I can appreciate that Evan. I have always been assertive, though I don’t think that necessarily equates to “Masculine.” I look very feminine and am extremely nurturing. Nobody who actually met me would say, “Oh, she’s butch” by any stretch. I like short skirts and manicures too much for that.
          I prefer men to be neither Macho nor Passive, but intelligent and mature, equals so to speak. Maybe I shouldn’t be wasting your time on this site, since I generally have no problem finding men to date, though I DO admittedly get frustrated just like everyone else. I’m well aware that I’m very choosy but I’m OK with that for now. I’ll change my approach when/if I need to. I just think this forum is really interesting and some very relevant things get discussed here.

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          Appreciate it, Al. You want what everyone wants: the nice guy with balls. But there are tradeoffs. It sounds to me like you and I are the same: 65% masculine, 35% feminine. These are made up numbers, but bear with me. Feminine has nothing to do with skirts or manicures. It’s a way of being. Masculine energy is DOING. Feminine energy is RECEIVING. Masculine is about control. Feminine is about letting go of control. Masculine is about winning. Feminine is about getting along. Masculine is about ego. Feminine is about supporting others. Of course you have feminine energy – just not as much as you think. Your best fit, therefore is a guy who is more laid back, passive, and agreeable, because you’re very direct and assertive. That doesn’t mean you are a guy. It DOES mean your masculine energy predominates. The women who argue with me most on the forum – often the brightest, most analytical, critically thinking women – are often the most masculine. Masculine energy needs feminine energy.

        4. Karmic Equation

          Hi Al,

          Thanks for the reply.

          1) You have great guy-dar for the guys that are compatible with you, so keep on keeping on 🙂 I really mean this in a non-snarky way. Believe me, if I wanted to be snarky, I wouldn’t be denying it, even sarcastically.

          2) Building the mystery is FUN, i.e., being courted is FUN. And I don’t mean building it by “playing games” — why is it that women who consider themselves “forthright” always believe if you don’t “put it all out there” you’re playing games?

          I think the reason is simple, and, again, I don’t mean this is a snarky way.

          As Evan has pointed out you have masculine energy. You go out and get what you want. You got the men you wanted, but eventually you didn’t want to keep them, right? You said you ended them all, as well as started them all. Have you ever analyzed why?

          My quick guess is that they eventually bored you or exhausted you. You found men who liked your taking the lead (aka your masculine energy). But 1-3 years or even 17 years later, weren’t there times where you wished HE would take initiative every now and then instead of letting you do all the work in leading?

          If I guessed correctly, then while you successfully BEGAN relationships with men you desired them with, and who were fine with your masculine energy (which usually meant that he had more feminine energy than you) — that the times when you were in YOUR feminine energy, they didn’t know how to make you happy. And over time this may have hurt you or annoyed you in turns, to the point where you had to end the relationship.

          The courtship dance, when you build the mystery as I call it — but perhaps the more learned would call courtship the time where both of you are setting the bars for your masculine and feminine polarities — is what will help sustain the relationship beyond the 3 years. I mean once it’s decided who wears the pants in the family, so to speak, it’s hard for both parties to accept pant-wearer as the skirt-wearer when she changes her mind.

          So the courtship dance as I call it is when the woman deliberately lets the guy wear the pants (even though she’s just as comfortable in them)…so that further down the road, when you feel like wearing a skirt, he knows what to do.

          But wearing a skirt when you’ve been wearing pants all your life is a scary thing. I know this because, physically, I only wear skirts/dresses maybe twice a year. All the other times I’m in slacks or jeans. It feels weird to PHYSICALLY wear a skirt. I’m sure it feels just as strange EMOTIONALLY for masculine energy women.

          But the caution is that it’s IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to stay in her masculine energy for the duration of her relationship. For example, I’m sure pregnancy and motherhood really messes with her masculine energy. And those are the toughest time for a masculine man who has a feminine wife to handle, so how difficult do you think it would be for a feminine energy man to handle his now suddenly feminine-energy wife whom he’s used to only seeing in her masculine energy?

          Let the guy be the guy during courtship and he won’t forget how to be the guy later on.

          And it’s FUN to be chased. It’s ego-boosting to CATCH the fish. But it’s more fun to let the fish catch us and think it’s all HIS idea. However, there IS more angst for the woman when she lets the guy lead in courtship. Which brings me to my third point:

          3) I believe that masculine energy women hate feeling anxious or they really hate having to exert self-control (most people do). They can deal with rejection better than they can deal with anxiety or exert self-control. Hence asking men out for them are no big deal. Ultimately, I wouldn’t have a problem asking men out. But I don’t want to set the pant-wearing precedent, where he forgets how to put them on somewhere down the line.

        5. Al

          Thanks Evan. You and Karmic have given me another way to see this. I agree that it’s important for me to look at how the energy I am giving off translates to the man. Perhaps it would benefit me to let my softer side out a little more in the earlier stages rather than waiting until I trust someone more to show vulnerability.

      2. 319.1.2

        Karma: There’s sure a lot to think about there. That’s why I enjoy this site so much. For sure, you have a point about sometimes wishing my ex would step up to the plate and stop being so apathetic. However, this wasn’t a behavior he evidenced in the beginning or I wouldn’t have been interested. I am absolutely not attracted to weak, passive men.  Most people found my ex to be quite intimidating. He certainly had “Presence.”
        My marriage ended primarily due to my ex’s refusal to seek help for a drug addiction that he fell into several years after we were together, not because I got bored with him. Quite the contrary, I loved him deeply (still do) and begged him to get help for over a decade before throwing in the towel because I finally realized that I couldn’t force him to help himself.  So, while I appreciate the thought that went into your assessment, I believe it’s unwise to paint people as so one dimensional. Masculine/feminine, aggressive/passive. Most people have rich inner lives and are capable of being multi-faceted.
        I also think it’s patently false to equate strength with “Masculinity.” Women have had to be tough cookies from the beginning of time so let’s not forget that our inner power has always existed. I am a strong woman. That does not make me “mannish” or overbearing.  I actually prefer to wear skirts over pants and am very feminine in appearance. I prefer to make decisions by discourse and consensus rather than laying down the law or taking the reins. There’s a huge difference between bravado and true inner strength, whether you are male or female. Part of legitimate strength is understanding your own emotions and being able to express them openly. I’ve never been afraid to be gentle, soft or nurturing. I see no problem with people  having and expressing the full range of human emotions.
        I agree that courtship is FUN. For me that entails getting to know someone, great conversation, those first blushes of attraction. I just don’t think there needs to be all this manipulation involved, because that’s what these tactics really are. “Play hard to get, don’t let him know you’re interested, always act busy,” etc… That is the definition of playing head games.  You can get to know a smart, funny, cute person without having to pretend you’re something you’re not. In fact, I honestly think it’s better not to dissemble because then you are setting up false expectations.

        1. Karmic Equation

          Hi Al,
          I’m sorry about your ex’s addiction. I had to end a 6yr relationship with a man I could have happily lived the rest of my life with because he became a raging alcoholic. I know exactly where you’re coming from. He was definitely more emotional (feminine energy) than I who am more logical (masculine energy). We were great complements and that’s why the relationship worked.
          I have a lot of masculine energy myself as indicated in the way I normally express myself on this site and in the direct way I communicate. No holds barred.
          But I know distinctly the difference between masculine strength and feminine strength. They’re both not the same, and it’s perfectly ok for men and women to have a combination of both types of strength. However, I always feel that women who have masculine strength object to categorizing anything as masculine and feminine, as if there was something wrong with being either or both. There isn’t.
          Having feminine energy is more than just LOOKING and dressing femininely. It’s ok to have masculine energy as a woman. There is nothing wrong with that, except its denial.
          This site explains the differences best:
          I agree with your definition of playing games. But that wasn’t what we were discussing, so don’t change the subject 🙂
          The more masculine (in energy) (generic) you are means the less masculine he has to be to make a harmonious relationship. There isn’t any right or wrong in the kind of energy a person has. It just means they need to be aware of what their own energy is so as to better choose a mate whose energy is complementary to hers, rather than a duplicate. To that end, you can’t deny the existence of masculine or feminine energy because then you eliminate a way to evaluate your potential mate’s compatibility with yours.
          And getting back on topic, Tom10 in his replies to posts in 312.1.1 best expresses why it’s not in a woman’s best interest to ask men out on dates. There was an article that I used to have bookmarked on my  but can’t find. It basically summarized that when a girl asks a guy out, she’s giving him a “get of of jail free card” when he wants to end a relationship, after all it was HER idea, not his, right? You can’t blame a guy for not refusing to spend time with an attractive woman who asks him out, right?

  20. 320

    Karmic: Thanks for the sympathy. You have mine as well for having loved an addict yourself. It’s a tough road to travel when you want the best for someone and just can’t break through.
    But anywhoo… Ok, now I get the whole masculine/feminine energy thing cause I read your link. It helps to know what philosophy you’re referring to because there are other ways of looking at the topic, plus some folks (like me) who don’t really feel the need to label strength in terms of masculine v/s feminine. I think strength just IS and anyone, regardless of gender, is capable of evidencing it in it’s many forms. Still, we are in agreement, I think. Using the definitions on that web page, I’d say I’m pretty evenly balanced between the two sides (I’m very concerned with the well being of others) which is probably why I’m drawn to men who have a equal amounts of both as well. My ex was actually really low on the feminine energy as described there. I will probably lean toward men who are imbued more with the gentleness and kindness this next time around just because I got so burned by my ex’s Narcissism. But he can’t be a total wimp either. 😉
    As for the idea that asking a guy out first gives him some kind of “get out of jail free card?” I just can’t get behind that. I’m only interested in intelligent, grown men who can take responsibility for their part in a relationship. Anyone who would see that as giving them an “out” is emotionally stunted and THEY are the ones in dire need of relationship coaching.

  21. 321

    It’s going to be end of mine day, but before finish I am reading this fantastic piece of writing to increase my experience.

  22. 322

    Evan, your advice about the shy guy is spot on.  I am now (nearly) dating a dream man.  He needs a lot of encouragement (There’s something about a close fitting dress that brings out the man in a shy man :o)

    We work on the same floor in the same building (but met somewhere else, yep!) and told me himself that once bitten, twice shy.  So far, I’m making slow but sure progress.

    I have given him many opportunities, and he has taken most of them.

    If it helps someone else, it also seems to be important to him that it’s on his own terms (as in, I may be shy, but I make my own decisions).

    Well ho hum.

    Keep you posted.

  23. 323

    I just recently, while intoxicated, invited a guy to call me, and gave him my number through text. I hope he calls. But if he doesn’t, or he is not that interested, than so be it. No big loss.

    I have to say that before I made this move, I was already getting ready to be a little more bold, as I felt an attraction with him and we had been flirting in the office and well, I felt comfortable to.

    Many a guys ask for my number, or try to, and on occasion I will give them my number, but many a times, I am not that interested.

    Sure I could have been more coy. and I had been, but I thought it would be a pleasurable thing to be honest and up front. I am not confessing my undying love, which really doesn’t exist at this point. But being honest about my feelings.

    People like to have guidelines to follow to make things more orderly and comfortable, but sometimes, it can be important to break the status quo, to create something really meaningful.

    How he chooses to answer to my last move, will tell me something about him and will also let me know whether it’s worth my time or not. I work with the guy and while, it might be a little awkward, it ain’t that big of a deal. Thankfully, I don’t hinge my self worth and identity, on these momentary experiences.


  24. 324

    I asked my husband out. It worked out pretty well.  He was always flirting with me so I knew he liked me, but he never asked me out which was becoming increasingly frustrating. Turns out he was just scared of rejection and I’m a pretty closed person and men just have trouble reading me because I’m shy and just act like I want nothing to do with men who I am crazy about.  I’d had too many experiences where guys who I was crazy about but never asked me out admitted to me years later that they had a huge crush on me but were convinced that I couldn’t stand them or had friend zoned them, so I just bit the bullet and asked him out.  Two kids and 10 years later it seems like it was a good idea.

  25. 325

    PS.  I think this is just advice for “alpha males”.  You know the kind who want to spread their seed across the earth and for whom the word commitment brings terror and rage.  I think most marriage material men who are yes “less masculine” being more nurturing, open hearted, better communicators and in short better fathers and husbands, would have no problem being asked out.  I read somewhere that in most long lasting and successful relationships the men develop lower than normal male levels of testosterone and the women develop higher than normal female levels of testosterone and the roles become less black and white.

  26. 326

    Most of what Evan says is pretty well the reality.  I’d just like to add after decades of soaking in and up TONS of dating stimuli, that since females are suppose to be long since Liberated thus Equality is suppose to be exercised, then Equality should not be only include Equal Opportunity For Careers (which is the case), shouldn’t it apply to not mattering who asks who out?  That’s true Equality. Yet this is not, the Reality.  What’s real is this > today, women have just as much Income as men especially younger women AND separated/divorced EX wives can be doing better than men too.  So, whoever is doing the asking, not only will have to pay on first date, but in setting this precedent of usually the man, it will be expected that HE put out more than her from then on.  This is not right or moral.  It may be instinctive or natural that men USE TO ALWAYS to the asking and thus pay when they became the sole bread winners however, those days are long gone for so many out there.  In fact, a huge reason why so many younger men don’t date is because of the Income problem.  Same for many older men who are damaged goods after a split when children are involved.  They’ve often given up the home to the EX where the children spend most of their time, and he pays child support.  A father in that position isn’t about to feel like asking many women out while licking his wounds.  I’m an advocate of going dutch for sure. Having shared  these concerns, the dates I had in the past where the women initiated, did not work out well even though it was always easy for me to sit back and let them come to me because there were so many.  if I were to do it over again knowing what I know now, for certain it would ME doing the asking.  IF I received a no, on to another woman I would go and forget the shyness or rejection.  Easier said than done in your 20s and green under the collar.

    Men, through the years with its ups and downs with females, do not get hung up thinking that there’s only ONE for you so IF she says no, you will be depressed for the rest of your days.  BAD move.  Carry on with other prospects who tickle your fancy so to speak.

  27. 327

    I agree with Evan for the most part accept for YES, a woman should most certainly ask a man out even if he isn’t taking that step.  Why?  Firstly, a woman can tell if a man likes them and of so, most men (more than women) will then say YES. How does that make the woman feel?  Wonderful.  Secondly, that man likely wouldn’t ask you out (like so many will not do today) for so many reasons most people already know.  Economic – academic Status is one big reason and of course the initial fear of rejection.  There’s also, she is just too attractive so will say NO.  Once you are out together, he will soon come into his own and thereafter, who asks who out is forgotten.  

    So many women who do not ask a man out get left hanging for sometimes years with regrets such as IF ONLY I had asked say David out.  Time waits for no-one.  I have had women ask me out and have always said YES.  I have had tons of women who have take interest but I rarely asked them out, which on my side of things like you, was a mistake.  Equality, which BTW I don’t believe in, surely has given women what it takes to ask a man out?  It doesn’t mean you are taking control or that he’s not a man.  Men can be very shy too.  AGAIN, most men will say YES and pay his way too, while more women as stats show, will say no.  Rejection therefore, comes more from men asking women out, which is yet another reason why more and more today do not.   

    1. 327.1

      Great point,John! I have NEVER asked a woman out, never  really knowing if she is really interested. When she asks ME out, I pay and we do the town,since I can KNOW that  she is actually interested. I cannot imagine ANY other way!

      1. 327.1.1

        I see what you mean. If there’s ever a date for me again, I will do the asking because every situation wherein she asks me out, it has turned into her power-tripping me Greg.  So it could be that the people herein who say a man should do the asking and face rejection, are right.

  28. 328

    I strongly disagree that women shouldn’t ask me on dates ever. I prefer women to ask me on dates. It is the 21st century, time for complete equality.

  29. 329

    Some part of me feels like this is sound advice but another part of me, the independent woman, the goal oriented woman, the woman taught to go after what she wants and never to stop until I get it rejects this advice as antiquated. First lets discuss how men’s gender roles have changed in modern times. Men are now taught that they should have women throwing themselves at them. This is there new ultimate goal and they are no longer taught to pursue a woman they are interested in. Women now are more independent than we have ever been in history. Even women who struggle financially and don’t have the best education still find that they have to do everything to support themselves and their families. They don’t have time to wait on any one to give them the OK to go after what they need, they have to take what they need and want. Men nowadays are taught that they have little accountability. They no longer feel the pressure to provide, many feel as if it is perfectly fine to let the woman work and support them. These are the same men that let women come to them, put them down and make them feel insecure so the woman won’t wake up and realize that she could be fine alone. No matter how well a woman’s feminine wiles work, they won’t be enough to change today’s dynamic.

    This is the scope of dating today. Women have to decide if they want to turn off their alpha female, we have to decide if we should shut off our heightened hunter sense and become the pursued. How in the world can a woman dial back her daily hustle to be that shrinking violet that men want? In today’s world of dating, women’s gender roles have changed so drastically that we don’t know how to be pursued when all the men in our sphere have been taught that they don’t have to work hard to pursue the things that they want. We have to show so much assertiveness and initiative to make our dreams come true or simply to just survive and we look for that in our equals, for a man who is doing the same thing that we are meeting your goals and making your life better. But you all are so few and far between. We women are asking you to step up! Work just as hard as we do. When you see something go after it instead of waiting for it to come to you.  If you are naturally wired to be the hunters and pursers than do that to the best of your ability. We women are not going to wait for you forever.

  30. 330

    Seriously?  Women asking us men out?  God forbid if they did.

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