[Video] Is Modern Chivalry Dead?

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This is part of a new video series that I shot with my friends at Three Day Rule, a national matchmaking service associated with Match.com. TDR sent a camera crew to my house to capture a dialogue between me and Kate Edwards.

For the next 9 weeks, I’ll be posting a new short video every Friday that should be a refreshing departure from the written blog posts I do on Mondays and Thursdays.

We kick things off with a video called “Is Modern Chivalry Dead?” Without giving anything away, Kate and I both agree that while it may be a little dormant with more passive men and aggressive women, many people still subscribe to the theory that men should court women.

In my opinion, men can complain all they want about how unfair it is that they’re supposed to call, plan and pay for the first few dates, but you’ll find few women who prefer passive men. Kate gives a simple explanation why in the video.

Thanks for watching and be sure and share both the video and your comments.

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Comments:

  1. 21
    twinkle

    In response to comments like those of Russell #19, I’ll point out that there have been times we women called out and criticised the viewpoints of women who were overly negative/cynical and making unfair blanket statements about men; I have done so, I’ve seen other women do so, and certainly Evan has done so many many times. Similarly, there have been women who pointed out that very often successful women are turning men off with their attitude, Not their good jobs; again Evan has said this many times.

     

    But this is a blog with comments primarily written by women, and unsurprisingly the majority of foolish or overly-negative comments are written by women. There are a Lot of those comments, and we don’t have time or energy to reply to all. We just hope those women read other reasonable comments on this blog that will get them to rethink.

  2. 22
    Sarah Lund

    What about all the flirting that goes on between residents in residential homes/nursing homes? That’s an even worse situation, because some are only there for rehab. They are there to recover, and then suddenly, one of the residents tries his smooth talk on her. The same for men. You can’t avoid it, because you’re forced to mingle with the other residents in a communal lounge. And even though the other residents witness it going on, they don’t say a word about it to the staff. I’m not saying we should start having nursing homes for separate genders, but when you’re in a very limited, closed-end environment, it’s hard to know how to escape that. And if you live with them, it’s that much harder to break free of it. Then it’s hard to look the person in the eyes, because he’s made a fool out of us. Do, actually, consider that not everyone is in an easy environment anyway.

    1. 22.1
      Buck25

      My mother spent the last 5 years of her like an an assisted living facility. She wanted that; a lot of her friends were there, and they enjoyed each other;s company more than living alone. Yes, Sarah, I saw a lot of flirting between some of those old men and old women, most of them well into their eighties or nineties. Most of them seemed to thoroughly enjoy it, and with some of them, there was little doubt that it led to more; it didn’t appear to hurt any of them, and the staff just smiled and pretended not to notice.

      Of course, I suppose that if one is inclined to take their own bitterness/indifference/disinterest toward the opposite sex all the way to their deathbed, they certainly have the right to do so.    I would think (based on my anecdotal observations) that those NOT so inclined soon find enough like minded company who enjoy their advances, to not waste time on those who don’t. Of course, your mileage may vary…

  3. 23
    judy

    I am still treated with chivalry but maybe that’s because I expect it and because I behave well with men too.

    However, should a man NOT treat me right, he will either be told (by me) or I will just dump him.

    Life is WAY too short for bad manners.

     

    1. 23.1
      Buck25

      Agreed.   It just seems more and more people (both genders) have come to see good manners, thoughtfulness, kindness and even common civility, as only as a means to a desired end. If it’s not rewarded, why bother? Why bother? I don’t know; maybe….BECAUSE IT’S RIGHT? Or does that not matter anymore?

      1. 23.1.1
        judy

        Buck25 – because being polite and courteous always helps others and makes society much kinder and warm. for yourself.

        It’s not rewarded? I think there is a reward in being polite and courteous, including not letting yourself down and downgrading yourself.

        Another thought.   I recently met guy number one – slim, well groomed, and attractive (a 5/6 out of 10).   He had equal qualifications to man two.

        True story I’m afraid.

        Guy 2 is seriously overweight but has a lovely personality, is courteous, fun and kind.

        I decided to not bother with guy one and will give guy two the break he probably needs.

        Had it not been for the courtesy, good manners and fun/intelligence, I would have looked past guy two.   But he was interesting and a gentleman (and yes, he can swear and curse and so can I – but there are times when it just is not appropriate)

         

        1. Buck25

          Judy, I think you misunderstand my point. I was reflecting in that post, an attitude expressed several times in this thread by some (I assume younger) men, and suggesting that instead of looking to be rewarded for good manners. etc. they might consider practicing some measure of chivalry without any thought of reward, simply because it’s the right thing to do. That’s why I put the words “because it’s right” in all caps. I don’t know if   “because it’s right” is a fashionable reason these days to do anything(or refrain from doing it), but once upon a time it was, and at least for some of us, it still is.

          Let’e take an example from outside the dating world, to help clarify the point. Suppose I encounter a wino on the street, down on his luck and hungry, and I offer him a kind word, and get him something to eat. He has nothing to give in return, and there’s not a soul around to see what I did, much less give me any sort of credit or reward for the act. By the reasoning some have expressed here, I might as well have just ignored him, and walked on by; there was nothing in it for me, after all.   Tomorrow, he won’t even remember it; a week from now neither will I. All it represents is one simple act of decency, in a world often too preoccupied to bother. Why would I do it then? Because it was right.

          I don’t know how many people would agree with me, in a world where we parse each word and phrase for nefarious hidden meanings, where all motivations are suspect, and many people can’t simply receive an unexpected gift, or even a compliment, without silently asking “Where’s the catch?”

          I can only give what I can, whether that’s manners, or a kind word, a compliment, a thoughtful gesture, or speaking the truth as best I know it. Whether another chooses to reward that, censure it, or ignore it is out of my hands. The only motivations and actions I control at all are my own, and I only know one standard to guide those: “Because it’s right”.

  4. 24
    Buck25

    Sarah,

    Chivalry, as it used to be practiced anyway, isn’t quite dead, but depending on which age group you’re in, you may not be likely to   have experienced it.

    We have evolved into a culture of “I want it all, and I want it now!”; in which, for most, it’s all about results, and the quicker the better; the process takes a distinct back seat. I know there’s been a lot of progress, but it’s hard to argue that society and social norms have become increasing coarse, crude, and yes, selfish, too.

    My own viewpoint comes from an earlier and simpler time, when young men were taught that manners, chivalry and courting weren’t optional in dating; it was expected of us, to do and be less was unseemly, and rude. This was not something most of us even questioned; we knew no better. It’s not that there was no angst in dating; there was, for most people of both genders (as it always has been and will be); but there were “rules”, and and a process, which I remember as being more enjoyable that it seems to be today. I’m sure it wasn’t all idyllic. of course, but it was different.

    I hope those practices, which I think still do provide a sort of social lubricant to the dating game, will not find their last refuge among those of us who, with more yesterdays behind us than tomorrows ahead, simply aren’t comfortable acting any other way. I hope there are men among the younger generations, who can still see chivalry simply as a gracious gift, rather than part of a mating strategy that seems devalued to them, in a world where the way of the “bad boy” and the player seems the easier and more likely way to win, in a world where “winning” seems to be everything.

    Sometimes I read here, that for a man to be authentic, is foolish; that honor and integrity are naive, that even modest empathy and kindness are the marks of the weak and second-rate among men; that in this age of the the anti-hero, the man who shows any of that will neither be desired nor respected by the women of today. Deceit, a false image, manipulation, “fake it til you make it” seems to be the new order of the day.   I think I’ll pass, not because I’m too virtuous (I’m not) but because that’s just not a way I know how to be. At 67, I don’t feel old, but all that does make me feel as obsolete as a fountain pen, or a mechanical typewriter…

    1. 24.1
      judy

      Buck 25 – post 24

      I just read your comment and understand what you mean and can empathise.   However, I would still like to repeat (bang on :o)????) that just because you’re 67, doesn’t mean that good manners don’t count!

      I’m also in your age group and quite frankly, a younger man would probably not be the kind of man I would consider (and I’m honest enough to know that he probably would not be interested in me either) but I would certainly listen/while away a coffee/tea/glass of wine with a younger man who is courteous.

      If he’s rude at whatever age, just how attractive is that? Seriously.

      Some guys don’t even have good manners outside of the bedroom, let alone in it.

       

  5. 25
    Tom10

     
    Interesting debate with some fine comments, particularly from Adrian. I suppose what we are witnessing here is evolution and survival of the fittest in action in front of our very own eyes.

    Having read this blog for a few years now my understanding is that women seem to have two instinctive mating drives: the first is to acquire the highest quality male genes they can (and they feel ‘chemistry’ when they find it) and the second is to acquire the necessary resources to raise the resultant progeny. Ideally these two drives would be fulfilled by the same guy, thus ensuring that he has the requisite motivation to invest his resources into the child, and by extension, her.

    Traditionally, as women had no access to their own resources and were bound by social convention (shame was a handy way of controlling paternity prior to the invention of contraception and DNA-testing) they were often prepared (or rather, forced) to make a trade-off on the high-quality genes to access resources. And that was what courting and chivalry was about: demonstrating the ability to provide resources.

    Nowadays, however, as women have access to their own resources and are free from stigma they have no necessity to make a trade-off on high-quality genes, therefore, logically, they won’t.

    But as a result the guys — like Obsidian – who don’t have those high-quality genes lose out. So these guys are effectively being filtered out of the human race. No matter how hard he works to accumulate resources/improve himself it just doesn’t matter, as women have already decided that his genes don’t cut the mustard.

    To compound matters, from his viewpoint, not only do women want their high-quality genes, but they still want to access the resources too! Therefore, his bitterness is understandable. And I do feel for him.

    Until…he says that he has plenty of options but that they’re simply not good enough for him. Then I lose all sympathy and realise that he’s just like the rest of us: he’s a toxic maximizer desperately trying to date out of his league.

    1. 25.1
      Theo

      Tom10,

      Your analysis is exactly correct and confirmed by science, I believe. It is also in accordance with the experience of my male single friends and myself. Looks and  physical appearence are the main, close to only, factors of attraction, while status and money might have some minor importance for women with limited economic resources. If a woman does not find a man physically attractive early on after meeting him, no amount of chivalrous courting will make her want to have a romantic relation with him. However, if she finds the man hot and sexy, she will desire him and do anything to start a relationship with him, even if he does no courting whatsoever.

      1. 25.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Let’s make something clear:

        Women PUT up with poor treatment, lack of chivalry, and inconsistency from men when they’re attracted, the SAME way men put up with a ton of bullshit from attractive women.

        So, if your complaints about women are that they are selfish, emotional, difficult and always trying to change you, your advice to them would be to stop being that way.

        Similarly, my advice to men is that they treat women better, be generous and chivalrous and act consistently.

        In other words, just because you can get away with being an asshole and people put up with you doesn’t justify you being an asshole.

        That’s a gender neutral statement, by the way.

        1. It's you

          Evan, it always amazes me how often people’s so called problems in dating and relationships simply stem from the fact that the were never taught basic respect and decency for others. I cannot imagine that 50 years ago a person would publicly state they feel they have to in a sense “get paid up front” for treating their fellow humans with kindness, respect, and empathy because ” what’s in it for me.” This blog and most others are overrun with people who see others as disposable commodities for Getting their needs met but see a gross injustice in being treated the same way themselves.

          On on another note, I see Obsiditroll is back. You are a patient man. I’d have blocked him a long time ago.

      2. 25.1.2
        Karmic Equation

        “If a woman does not find a man physically attractive early on after meeting him, no amount of chivalrous courting will make her want to have a romantic relation with him. However, if she finds the man hot and sexy, she will desire him and do anything to start a relationship with him, even if he does no courting whatsoever.”

        Agreed.

        However, your advice to men is stop courting. Period.

        Evan’s advice, my advice, and the advice of all the other women on the blog is to stop courting women who are out of your league.

        Court women in or below your league and you’ll have better results.

        And your league is NOT defined by what YOU think you are. Your league is defined by the women who are willing to date you. If most women whom you ask out aren’t interested, then it’s safe to say they are out of your league and you need to aim a league lower. And keep readjusting until you find the league where most women will date you.

        This is not different than the advice MEN give to women. A woman’s SMV is NOT defined by the league of men who are willing to sleep with her. A woman’s SMV is defined by the league of men who are willing to COMMIT to her.

        Different sides of the same coin. And both men and women are both loathe to acknowledge this.

        1. Tom10

          @ Karmic Equation 25.1.2
            “Evan’s advice, my advice, and the advice of all the other women on the blog is to stop courting women who are  out of your league.
          Court women in or below your league and you’ll have better results.”
            
          Er Karmic, you know I love ya, but why on God’s earth would a guy court women in or below his league? Sure, he can sleep with them without courting; therefore, he has no motivation to court her.
            
          The only reason to court is so that a guy can access higher-quality women: i.e., so that he can date out of his league. So, in his mind, if he can demonstrate his ability to provide resources, he can access women with higher-quality genetics.
            
          But this only works if said woman, simultaneously decides to compromise on chemistry to access his resources. But women won’t do that anymore because they don’t have to.
            
          Which is why we’re here arguing. Gosh, isn’t debating modern dating so much fun 😉

            

        2. Theo

          Karmic Equation,

          I agree, it is important in dating to be realistic about your SMV, even though it might sometimes be slightly painful. This is certainly a gender neutral statement, that we all need to think about and accept, if we really want a lasting relationship.

        3. KK

          Haven’t you ever met a man that you really never thought twice about (ie., no initial attraction), but through certain circumstances (work, school, socializing), you actually get to KNOW this person a little bit, and start to feel an attraction? They might be very average looking but they have an amazing personality or maybe they’re well versed on a variety of topics, which makes them fun and interesting to talk to. There are so many qualities to consider besides just looks it’s hard to believe that grown adults would rule out someone of the opposite sex based on looks alone. I realize that most people aren’t going to give a hideously unattractive person a chance no matter how great of a person they appear to be.   I’m talking about average looking people with very attractive qualities. I’ve found a lot of these men to suddenly become more physically attractive to me after I’ve gotten to know them a little.

        4. Karmic Equation

          “Er  Karmic, you know I love ya, but why on God’s earth would a guy court women in or below his league? Sure, he can sleep with them without courting; therefore, he has  no motivation  to court her.”

          Tom10, darlin’. You have to know you’re  a man coming from the land of plenty. Tall, good looking (assumed from how and what you’ve written in other posts), well-to-do, if not stinking rich (also from indications   from other posts), so while you’re a guy, you don’t see it from the life of the “not-hot” guy, like Obsidian.

          I gave this some thought and have come up with this theory.

          Women don’t like “numbers” because women typically don’t grade men on a numerical scale. Most of us just triage a guy into “Hot” and “Not-hot” categories. Similar to the way men triage women into “Do-able” and “Not do-able” categories. It’s binary. As demonstrated by the OKC survey, basically most women believe 20% of men are hot (equivalent to 8-10 rating) and the other 80% are not-hot. However, within the “not-hot” category, women DO have distinctions, as in “never in a million years” (a 0-4) or maybe, if some of her other criteria such as wealth, status, personality, and/or education are met, which would make him a 5-7. He is still “not-hot” but she’ll give him a chance IF he courts properly. And THEN he can “grow” to be hot in her eyes. That “not do-able” chick never gets that chance. (+1 for men).

          The problem is that most men believe they are “at least” average looking, whether they are objectively so or not. Remember, women don’t have an “average-looking” scale. It’s just hot or not-hot, a binary scale. So any man that doesn’t fall into a  woman’s “hot” category will HAVE to court her whether SHE is hot or not. That is just how women are.

          And yes, the hot guys get special treatment. Just like hot women get special treatment.

          So, Obsidian, I’m not being cruel, just stating reality. The 80% of not-hot guys out there need to court to have a chance with any woman who is 5+. Because HOT MEN created those unrealistic expectations. That hot guy *will*  slum and bang a 6 and lower when he’s desperate or drunk or both. Leaving that 6 and lower woman to think she has a chance to land a “hot” bf, because golly gee, a few 8s, 9s, or 10s slept with her at least once.

          So for all ye men (generic men, not you Tom10 from the land of plenty) who blame women for creating the “bad boy” who doesn’t commit, why don’t YOU tell those “hot” men  to stop slumming so “unrealistic, entitled” women who think they can get a man several leagues above her to commit to her aren’t created?

          Back to courting.

          Agreed. >= 8 men don’t need to court. Women throw themselves at them.

          Men < 8 need to court because most women have slept with 8+ men and think that she can land an 8+ guy for a relationship.

          And so < 8 men have to be the ones who take risks (almost strictly financial as in paying for dates and making the effort to show he values a woman) during the dating/courting phase BEFORE exclusivity.

          But what most men FAIL to acknowledge is that once a woman agrees to exclusivity, he ends up with most of the relationship power, because most women lack the courage to walk away from men who will not or cannot make her happy. She tries continually to make him “change” instead. Most women put up with a LOT of B.S. from men once she commits to him (hence all the bitter and broken-hearted women on this blog).

          The fact is that BEFORE commitment, women have the power. AFTER commitment, men have the power.

          So I really, really hate it when men complain that women have “too much” power during the dating phase. My ears are deaf to those whines. Because men do have power, but ONLY after they commit. So if they refuse to commit, then whose fault is it really that they “have no power” over a woman?

          It’s true the women have the power in STRs and NSAs. But MOST women don’t want STRs or NSAs. They want LTRs. And MEN control access to that.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Agree with everything you wrote until the end. “The fact is that BEFORE commitment, women have the power. AFTER commitment, men have the power…because most women lack the courage to walk away from men who will not or cannot make her happy.”

          That is accurate…but it doesn’t have to be. My entire business is about reminding women that they DO have power within the relationship. And anyone who thinks that the opposite sex has all the power is only speaking from a place of disempowerment. Your power is always to walk away.

          If a woman walks away from a man who is not courting her properly, or treating her well within a relationship, she may be single, but she won’t be powerless.
          Same with the Obsidians of the world who think that women have power and is taking it back by opting out of things like courtship and commitment.

          The difference, of course, is that the women who choose to exercise their power will end up in happy relationships with men who treat them well…while the MGTOW crowd will die alone, all because of the false belief that all women are bloodsucking leeches – instead of equal relationship partners.

          I have to admit, I am BAFFLED by the people on the extremes – the man haters and woman haters. I do think it’s hard to find someone you want to spend the rest of your life with – but not enough to hate an entire gender and rule out the possibility that there are good folks out there.

        6. Christine

          Well, you need two people to form and maintain a relationship.   So to me, each person in that relationship has an equal vote, since they’re both an equal, 50/50 part of it.   Either party can either choose to stay, or walk away, at any given time.   In my own relationship, I don’t really see my boyfriend as having “power” over me.   I could always walk away from him if I ever wanted to, as easily as he could walk away from me.   I have always managed to get good jobs and support myself, so don’t need his money.   I have a great group of friends and family I can turn to for emotional support, with or without him.   I don’t even necessarily need him for sex either.   I got plenty of offers for NSA sex while I was online dating and could still get them now, if I was seeking that out (as I’ve posted on other threads I’ve had men hit on me recently without even trying–there isn’t exactly a shortage of horny men!) It would be nice to have a wedding but, I’m also not so desperate for one that I’d stay with just anyone, just for a ring and fancy dress.   In fact, when my boyfriend lately has asked what kinds of ring and wedding ceremony I’d like, I actually stumbled over the words because I hadn’t even given it much thought!

          My being with my boyfriend truly is a choice I’ve made.   I’m with him because I want to be with him–not because he has some kind of power over me that makes me be with him.    I’ve walked away from dysfunctional relationships before, and would do so again here if this situation ever stopped being a happy one (just as it would also be well within his rights to walk if he stopped being happy with me).   I would encourage every other woman to do the same.

           

        7. Tom10

          @ Karmic Equation
          Fantastic response. I really like the way you took my comment, had a think about it, and then absolutely nailed it in your response. Which is why I love ya 😉
            
          “Tom10, darlin’. You have to know you’re  a man coming from the land of plenty.”
            
          I guess this is a fair point: I’m suppose I’m a bit guilty of sitting in my ivory tower at times. I’ll admit I’m tall and good-looking but I don’t ever remember writing anything about being well-to-do and “stinking rich”.  It’s funny what one can infer from simply from the tone of another’s post.  The truth is I come from quite a poor-ish background and don’t earn big bucks; a lot less than you in fact. But due to an unusual quirk in the real estate market where I live and good timing (or canny judgement), I have an unusually high net-worth for someone my age (i.e. my house is worth a lot due to a fluke in the market). So women think I’m rich whereas, in reality, I’m not really. But this distinction doesn’t really matter in dating I guess; as all that matters initially is the impression one creates.
            
          My main strength, however, is demographics: I simply live in a city with a disproportionally high number of single educated women between 20 and 35. Bars and clubs often have a 70/30 female to male ratio so I simply have to be better-looking than average to do well. Additionally, women in my country far exceed their male peers in educational and career achievement; therefore the market is very lopsided for smart, attractive women looking for their equal. And whereas it’s great for me: my younger sister really struggles even though she’s better-looking and smarter than me.
            
          But your analysis was excellent. I always thought the dating game was a linear scale: where the 8 guys hook-up with girls who are 6s but then commit to the 8s when he’s ready, the 7 guys hook-up with the 5s and commit to the 7s, the 6 guys hook-up with the 4s etc. However, having read here for some time it seems that in practice it’s more like a logarithmic scale: the 5-and-below guys get almost nothing, the 6s and 7s get some action, but the 8s and above really clean up and get more than they can handle. So I guess if one is an 8 or above they have no way of appreciating what it’s like for regular guys.
            
          Except that I do. Because a significant proportion of the 8s and above weren’t always 8s: some, possibly most, start off as 5s but build themselves up to 8s over time. And I’m one of them. I’ll admit that I’m blessed with a build and face that women like. But the rest I did myself through sheer drive, determination and bloody-mindedness: women are much more complex than simply being turned on by a smiley face and long legs. Much like you did Karmic: you used your sheer intelligence and female guile to transform yourself into a woman that guys love. As confirmed by so many male contributors here.
            
          As a few female commenters pointed out, Obsidian’s main problem isn’t his height or class: it’s his attitude. Whatever about the difficulty of transforming ones appearance; it’s far more difficult to transform one’s disposition, attitude and personality so that it appeals to a large proportion of the opposite gender. But it can be done. And I’m sure all of the successful daters who post here like you, Fusee, Karl R, (when he was here) Sparkling and of course Evan himself! did the same necessary introspective work to successfully adjust their personality to one that attracts a large proportion of people. Many people, including some super-smart people who post here, can’t seem to achieve this.
            
          Your analysis in your reply, along with Evan’s adjunct, was absolutely spot-on so there’s no need for me to add further: there should really be a subject on dating in the education curriculum so that young men and women know how it works before entering, as it is just so complex!
            
          @ Obsidian
          Now that I think a bit more about your dystopian prediction of the Western world’s Roman-Empire-esque collapse due to a dysfunctional dating environment that you’ve opined here a few times I actually think that, in fact, it might be going the other way: as our population become ever richer and entitled, thus always selecting for the only the fittest genes when procreating, the population as a whole, and thus our civilization, is actually continuously improving. Through natural selection the population is actually becoming ever taller, more beautiful and more intelligent. Thus future generations will actually be superior to ours.
            
          Your thoughts…?
            
           
          PS: I’m still eagerly awaiting your vision of a fair dating environment btw…

        8. Adrian

          Tom10 and Karmic Equation, I agree with most of what you both said (Karmic Equation I love your theory on women and looks), but I don’t know how much income can affect your Sexual Market Value.

           

          I still think looks and height are main constants in the dating equation, whereas income level will be a variable. Because if a women is not attracted to you then you can’t even get a first date, regardless if you make 6 figures or not, especially for women who also make 6 figures or who don’t care about your being rich.

           

          So I think the you should do all you can to improve your looks, dress nice, look and smell clean, then focus on improving your personality. In my opinion looks have a ceiling, but personality doesn’t. Both women and men like being with someone who makes them smile and is fun to be around.

           

          Evan always talked about confidence being more important than looks and for the longest I thought he was full of B.S, just catering to possible clients trying to sell them the dream of being average looking and still being able to get a guy or woman who is a 7 or higher.

           

          But one day while reading the comments (I can’t remember which post it was, but I know) the female commenter was bemoaning that fact that a guy she loved left her and she thought it was because she wasn’t as attractive as the type of girls he normally dates. I thought about that for a few days and the answer hit me.

           

          The the guy didn’t leave her because of her looks, he left her due to the way she acted and carried herself because of how “she thought” she looked. He would not have asked her to be his girlfriend if he didn’t find her attractive. Upon re-reading her post it was clear that she thought he was out of her league and did not act with confidence, so I began to think about confidence and what was attractive about it.

           

          A confident (not arrogant) person is happy, and being around them makes you happy because they always have positive energy, they say and do positive or fun things. They make you smile, WHICH! Makes YOU feel good about yourself and makes you feel good hanging around them, so you want to be around them more and more. Being around someone who you always feel warm, and are always smiling, and laughing out loud with, is more fun to be around. You feel comfortable, relaxed, not guarded or on edge around them.

           

          For most of us regardless of if we are a 10 or 2 in looks, once we find someone who makes us feel that good just being around them, we won’t care about their looks or as many women on this site have said, that 5 will start to look like a 8 to us. This is why I now say that we men should look for women who love themselves and know how to put themselves first (in a none egocentric way), because a person who loves their self more will not let you mistreat them, but it also means that she will be emotionally healthy enough to do all the things Evan advises like, choosing the man who is a 7 in chemistry (looks) and a 10 in compatibility (your values and goals are insync) over the guy who is a 10 in chemistry and only a 7 in compatibility.

           

          So first off sorry Evan, you were right about confidence being more of a aphrodisiac than looks. Secondly, I am not saying that if you are confident, fun, and a positive person   but you are a 3 on the dating Sexual Market scale in terms of looks that you can get a 10 to commit to you, what I am saying is that, if you are a positive confident person, who loves yourself; you have a better chance of getting a person who is on a higher level in looks than you. But remember looks fade, personality and the way a person treats you is a constant.

           

          Regardless of what people like Russell, Obsidian, and others say, I see older women, overweight women, and women with kids, all with good looking men that have good jobs, and I can tell from the way they interact, that these men aren’t just using these women for sex. Being confident, not arrogant, and being a fun person to be around is something that I have started to work on more, whereas in the past, I just focused on improving my looks and my wealth, but I was still single.

          The reason I will not reply to someone like Obsidian is because he gets angry when women who are 6s and higher overlook him because he is a 5 but he said that he would be Stupid to date a woman who is a 2, because she is beneath him!!! Really!!!! To say you aren’t attracted to someone is understandable, but to think another human is beneath you because of the face they were born with (something for the most part they can’t control) is just…

          Anyway, I refuse to engage him, this was a great post by Evan that got mutated by some people who didn’t come to learn, but to attack and vent their anger with dating.

          Evan, since you have a women in the video with you, have you ever thought about doing scenarios instead of just talking? Since watching you talk is pretty much like just reading what you write, maybe you can get a few more miles out of these videos with acted out examples of what you mean… Just a thought.

           

           

    2. 25.2
      Tom10

      @ Obsidian #25.2

      “The flaw in your argument is that you presume that I want your or anyone else’s sympathy; I can assure you, I do not. Indeed, I am of the view that such overtures are highly overrated. Justice will suffice.”

        

        

      Well, what do you perceive as justice? When the women who spent their prime years sleeping with the “Mr. Bigs” come looking at you, you are well in your rights to ignore them. Is that not justice? Why the bitterness though; just keep it moving.

      “Anyway, and more to the point: what good would it do for me to, for example, attend the highschool prom with one of those homely, goofy looking girls my mom and sisters were trying to foist on me — given that I had no sexual attraction to them in the least? What would be the upside to that? How would that be fair, decent or humane, to any of them? I did them a huge favor of telling them outright that I had no desire to be bothered with them; we all know quite a few men and boys who would have done the deed simply because a warm body with a pulse in their minds, beats a blank.”
        
        
      Well I suppose this is what marks you out as an outlier. Many, if not most, guys I know would rather have sex with a “homely, goofy looking” girl rather than have no sex at all. In fact the relative ubiquity of prostitution world-wide would lend me to believe that a significant percentage, if not most, guys would be prepared to compromise on sexual attraction (or ‘chemistry’) in order to have sex. Clearly you differ.

      It’s just very difficult for me to understand your complaints about women refusing to compromise on chemistry, when you are guilty of the very same thing yourself!

      “Moreover, if you have no sympathy for my position, then surely you have none for the scores of women who are in similar situations, yes? I would think even moreso, since I’m a relative outlier among guys.”

      Well, for consistency, I guess I don’t really. The “scores of women who are in similar situations” also have options, but they don’t want those options, for the same reason you don’t want your options.

      But Evan has consistently advised women to compromise on chemistry if they want to find meaningful relationships. But they really struggle with it because this involves fighting their biology.

      “One thing no one wants to admit is this: if “leagues” and “scales” are real, with the higher numbers representing higher mating quality, then the inescapable conclusion must be, that the lower numbers have to represent by definition, lower mating quality — less sexual satisfaction, less companionate satisfaction, just less of nearly everything.”

      Well, yes, it seems harsh, but that’s how I see how dating works in today’s brutal world. In fact, that’s how I see how nature as a whole, works.

      “How is that “right”?”

      Non-sequitur. What has what is “right” got to do with dating? Who said it has to be “right”? The same could be said about anything in life; sports, intelligence, music etc. Some people are lucky and just born with certain attributes and that’s life. What matters, however, is how you play the hand you were given, rather than complain about the actual hand, per se.

      “I think this will be one of the fundamental questions humanity will have to honestly grapple with in the 21st century, and I just may be ahead of the curve in this regard.”

      I think this is a reasonable point: due to the demographic, societal and technological trends over the last half-century, dating behavior has irrevocably changed. Darwinism has been, in essence, fast-tracked and there seems to be casualties, whose plight we are only finding about here on the internet.

      “We cannot say that ours is a better, more actualized age, when so many people are so woefully unable to achieve it.”

      Not with a straight face, anyway.”

      Churchill’s phrase “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried” springs to mind.

      What do you propose would be a fairer dating-world in the 21st Century, Obsidian? Should women once again be deprived of the opportunities to have an education and employment? Should women be forced, by some sort of government decree, to compromise on chemistry, so that it’s “fair” on the guys who can’t generate it? Would you like if a government forced you to compromise on chemistry?

      So, Obsidian, what does your dating utopia look like, where it “fair” for everyone? I’m all ears…

      1. 25.2.1
        Christine

        I have to ask, just how would the government force people to “compromise on chemistry”?   Would government officials be armed with mind-reading technology, to make sure women are really compromising?   Now I’m getting curious about how this utopian (or perhaps, dystopian) society would work!

         

  6. 26
    Buck25

    Tom, Let me preface what I’m   about to say with this disclaimer; I’m no longer in the dating game, online, or otherwise. I recently found a relationship in the real world; I hope this means that I have left the dating scene for the last time; given my age, and my experience over the last three years, there would be nothing there for me to return to. So personally, I don’t have a dog in this hunt anymore. I can only relate what my experience has shown me.

    I do think it should be pointed out, that you and Adrian are not exactly average guys. Both of you, by your own accounts   and statements, firmly fit into that fortunate 10 to 20% of men who do not have the dating problems most men do. My congratulations on whatever combination of work and good fortune placed you in that select group that all women, from the most beautiful to the homeliest, can be and are physically attracted to. I would point out that it is a good deal easier to be gracious, and understanding of women, from your position; I hope you will acknowledge that position is quite different from that of the other 80 to 90% of men, whose dating life is one of nothing but rejection, and whose best hope is that with enough effort, some woman might actually come to “love” them (though never in the same way she would love a man she is really attracted to). No woman, in short, can or will give to them the unconditional love and passion she would so eagerly bestow on you. It’s not just women who are “out of their league”, they have no hope of ever having ANY woman feel for them what she would feel for you! That is precisely what the women here have revealed about how they really feel about men, and I have no reason to doubt either their sincerity, or their complete inability to feel otherwise. In addition, you have stated ( and Adrian has implied) that you both live, dating-wise, in what we might call a “target rich environment” where you not only have that gigantic advantage, but a copious supply of eligible women to boot; the best situation you could be in. The “unlucky 80%” of men (Obsidian, who you and Evan have savaged here, being a case in point) enjoy NEITHER of your and Adrian’s rather considerable advantages. I’m not judging that, just clarifying that your view is the one from the mountaintop, rather than from the bottom of the abyss. I hope you recognize there is a distinct difference.

    The average man’s view of this may not be your reality; once upon a time when I was young it wasn’t mine either. In my thirties, I didn’t have the height (I’m average, at 5’9″) but I was a very fit physical specimen, and that was enough to get the rest of what I had going for me a foot in the door. I didn’t get to date 10s, but I wasn’t trying to, and I had some pretty   attractive women actually pursuing me. I mention that only to illustrate that I too had my time of abundance; and I am grateful for having had it, as it’s something most men will never know (most of them because of factors beyond their control).

    When I emerged back onto the dating scene at 64, things were very different. My personality hadn’t become less, neither had my accomplishments; and if I was no longer a defined mass of young muscle, I still had a flat stomach and a pretty decent level of fitness for a man my age. I was more realistic than to try to date much younger women; I was quite content to leave the under 50 women to their own age group. What I swiftly found, online anyway, is that I was completely invisible to   most women, even in their fifties and sixties, except for the ones who had so let themselves degenerate into obesity, that, even if I could have forced myself to be somehow attracted, they could not have kept up with me on my morning walk, much less my usual activities. (Try imagining a 50+ woman some 50 or more pounds overweight on a zip line or a downhill ski slope, much less a ten mile hike over mountain terrain to a scenic overlook; routine activities for me; impossible for them).   I’m not in a major metropolitan area, so try to imagine the limited pool of potential dates available. Unfortunately, those few fit and active older women haven’t changed what attracts them visually, and since a man my age can’t be that, my end result was not so different from Obsidian’s experience. There is virtually no market for a fit, active man over 65 online (with pictures to prove it); doesn’t make any difference what one puts in a profile, no matter how well-written, if no woman fit enough to enjoy life with said man will even bother to look   at it. A personality, however evolved, is worthless as an attractant if never even seen. So excuse me if I have some real empathy for the average schmuck, now that age has put me in his shoes for three long hard years.

    I’m a lucky one. Not only did I have my day, even now I got lucky meeting a wonderful woman in real life, where a man who doesn’t have perfect looks still has a slim chance to shine, if he can. Personally, I have nothing to be bitter about. I can’t help but wonder, though, about the average man my age who loses a life partner, through death, or divorce. With all due respect to you and Adrian, and Evan, his prospects,   especially online, are bleak to non-existent, and the more fit and active he is, the worse he will feel it. I don’t see any way to alter that. In the end it doesn’t matter who’s to bless, or who’s to blame; it is, what it is.

    1. 26.1
      Karmic Equation

      Buck,

      Women don’t value “fit” in a man as much as she values “handsome face”.

      For example, men have the term “butter face” for women with great bods but less than appealing faces. Women don’t have  an equivalent term for men. He’s either hot or not-hot in totality.

      And for most women, “hot” starts at the face, not the bod. So if a guy has what she considers an attractive face, she can usually overlook flaw in his body: lack of fitness, e.g., beer belly; bald; too much body hair; too little body hair, etc.

      However, if he doesn’t have an attractive face, no matter how fit the bod, she’s going to have tough time feeling attracted to him.

      So if I could counsel men in one thing, it is that he needs to make sure that his face is attractive. So groom those unibrows, nasal, and ear hairs. Get a nice hair cut. Bald graciously, as in go totally bald or get a nice trim on what hair you do still have – don’t wear baseball caps to cover up the baldness. Find a hair style that works with your male-pattern baldness. Get rid of the double chin — at my dermatologist’s last week I saw a poster about an injection that gets rid of “sub-mental” fat (double-chin fat), etc. Fix crooked  or yellowed teeth. Dermabrasion. That kind of thing.

      A nice bod doesn’t hurt, but it’s the nice face that gets you in the door with women.

       

      1. 26.1.1
        Buck25

        Karmic,

        Insightful and kind, as I have come to expect from your posts. I see I must be really getting obsolete, as I had not heard the “butter face” term before; as I recall, the term from from my younger days was “brown bag” meaning the girl was doable, as long as you put a paper bag over her head; I suppose that one lost currency with the coming of plastic grocery bags 🙂

        If it’s mostly face I guess that explains it for me; just not the right facial symmetry, I suppose, since I still have most of my hair (slightly receding), stay pretty well-groomed (yeah including the nose, ears and eyebrows), still have my teeth (relatively white, too) and no noticeable acne scars ( I do have a couple other scars from halfway round the world a long time ago, but not terribly disfiguring; at least those didn’t   seem to put off women in my earlier days.   My current girlfriend   doesn’t mind so I guess it doesn’t matter anymore. I think, in the online environment, it was more calendar age than anything else; reverse match searches showed few women under 70 interested in a man 65 or older. I never found one woman over 60 who could come even close to keeping up with my activity level, and I can’t adapt to a sedentary lifestyle, or a celibate relationship, which a lot of women my age and up seem to want. It’s ok; in that milieu, I’m   an apparent oddity for my age, one that makes   me simply a product without a market. In my case, I don’t know that some reconstructive work would have mattered much. When most women of 62-63 cut their preferred age off at one year older than themselves, well, I have to wonder if the slight improvement would have made any significant difference, since I was being effectively screened out anyway. Thanks for the suggestions all the same, and perhaps they may help someone else a year or two below the magic number. 🙂

        1. Karmic Equation

          Butter face = But her face 🙂 — as in, She’s got a hot bod, but her face…

          The first time I heard it was on a Law & Order episode. And I had to ask a male friend what it meant.

          And yeah, if you looked like Sam Elliot or Sean Connery, you’d probably have had your pick of women.

          Facial symmetry is an attractant for women the way hot bods are for men.

    2. 26.2
      Tom10

      @ Buck25 #26
      Some reasonable points Buck, although I thought I’d addressed most of them in my previous comments. It’s interesting to read from the perspective of someone who has dated from a time and place very different to my own.
        
      “It’s not just women who are “out of their league”, they have no hope of ever having ANY woman feel for them what she would feel for you”
        
      But is this actually true? Obsidian mentioned that there were women he could have dated. But that they were “one of those homely, goofy looking girls”. This is what struck me. If I was in his boots — and I was — I would have considered one of those girls, as I would have had no choice.
        
      He seems to be annoyed with women for spending their prime years sleeping with the “Mr Bigs” and then coming to him once their time begins to run out. Yet he spent the very same time looking for his “Ms Big” ignoring the women who wanted him, becoming bitter and upset with the ones who ignored him. Buck, as a reasonable and balanced commenter, can you not see the logic disconnect?
        
      If he doesn’t want to date these women once they’ve given up on their Mr Bigs he doesn’t have to: no-one is making him. What’s he so bitter about? Well it seems he’s bitter that women can sleep with Mr Bigs whereas he can’t sleep with Ms Bigs. But that’s not the fault of women, that’s the fault of nature. Don’t blame the playa, blame the game and all that…
        
      As an aside, with women now changing their dating behavior and filtering for looks/genes/chemistry like never before, I wonder if the proportion of good-looking guys will steadily increase from that oft-repeated 20% statistic into future generations? Thus, things might be a bit rosier for the majority of guys in the future? Hmm…just a thought.
        
      “In addition, you have stated ( and Adrian has implied) that you both live, dating-wise, in what we might call a “target rich environment”  
        
      But could this strength not be achieved by anyone/everyone? I’m always amazed at how many people comment here about the disadvantageous gender ratio is where they live. And I always just think, well, um, why don’t you MOVE then, to somewhere with a ratio that’s in your favor?
        
      Or is that being simplistic? I realize that people have lives built where they are, but for such an important aspect of life could they not move — even for a period of time?
        
      “I can’t help but wonder, though, about the average man my age who loses a life partner, through death, or divorce.”
        
       
      Well it’s very difficult for me to respond as it is way out of my zone of experience. All I can say is that it appears — from comments here – to be more difficult for their female contemporaries due to gender ratios. Therefore, if guys at that age can get their act reasonably together they should have no problem finding a partner. I’ll report back in 40 years 😉

      1. 26.2.1
        Buck25

        Tom

        In no particular order, some thoughts on your comments.

        Move? Not in the cards for me. Maybe if I was 20 years younger. I live on a large, beautiful lake; water, sky and nature all around. I’ve been an outdoorsman all my life; the concrete jungle of a city, exciting as it is, makes me feel closed in after a few days. I can exist in that environment; I can’t LIVE in it. I made my home here on purpose; I live on land my ancestors walked 250 years ago. I’m Southern, Tom, and some of us have an attachment to the native soil that’s just visceral; if you’re not of our culture, you wouldn’t understand, and that’s ok.

        As for Obsidian, yeah I see the disconnects; but bear in mind that as an African American, he lives in a subculture where Black men as a group have been demonized, shut out and marginalized in a way you and I could never imagine, and not just by the larger society, but by (especially by) women of their own ethnicity. Lots of reasons; a matriarchal culture, (in part because of a welfare system that long encouraged absentee fathers),   low expectations, and so on; it’s a sad reality for those men and difficult to overcome. Degrade himself further (in his own eyes) or opt out; from his vantage point, that’s his choice; either way he still loses

        That’s an interesting theory you have about generations to come. Of course, we have to remember that one’s physical characteristics are not absolute predictors of the genes he/she will pass on to offspring, so I suppose genetic testing to determine which individuals and couples were most likely to produce the new generation of Ubermenschen might work better, if that’s the desired goal.   I   have to say that in my mind, that has some unpleasant associations; I do hope everyone recalls, that some 75 years ago, the Nazis tried to produce the perfect new Master Race,   by breeding their most physically superior appearing SS troopers with their most physically superior appearing “Aryan” women. As I recall, neither the experiment, nor the ideology that prompted it, worked out very well. Which raises this question: is this current iteration “progress”,   or proof that no truly bad idea ever dies? That’s for you young folks to sort out; I won’t be around to see the result, good or evil.

        On your last point, the overall population demographics, SHOULD shift the balance in favor of men. At least in the online environment, that does not seem to happen. It could be that the gender distribution online is skewed in the older age group, with fewer women and a higher percentage of men electing to participate. I do know there’s at least anecdotal evidence that women in that age group are less likely to remarry after death of a spouse, where men most often do , and often within a year or two. That could represent either a scarcity of men in the age group, OR, the possibility that older women handle being alone and single better than older men. in part because of a support network among their female friends, for which men have no counterpart. In other words they have less emotional need for a man in their lives than a man has for a woman in his. Of course, I believe even you or Evan would acknowledge, that while a man my age can easily find a woman that looks at least vaguely (in many cases, very vaguely) female, that’s of little use if she’s simply not fit or healthy enough to share the man’s lifestyle,   whether or not he forces himself to settle for what she looks like, if indeed he can.. When I was dating online, I had a simple test for this. If the woman had any positive attributes on first meeting, and showed interest, I made the second date joining me on my daily walk- five miles, up and down hills, no stops, at military cadence. I find that quite easy; I’ve been doing it for years, and can carry on a conversation while doing it. The oldest woman I met who even completed it, AFTER I slowed down and waited for her, was 55 years old at the time. Not one woman over 60 made it even half way, despite claims from several that they “work out every day”. Never mind “chemistry” , attraction, or lack thereof, that’s someone who couldn’t even be a companion to me, let alone a sexual partner. Still think I’m too picky? Nice to know women online consider me “genetically unfit”, all the same.:-)

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          “I made the second date joining me on my daily walk- five miles, up and down hills, no stops, at military cadence. I find that quite easy; I’ve been doing it for years, and can carry on a conversation while doing it.”

          If you’re using a 5 mile hike as a “shit test” to vet your women, Buck, despite all your eloquence, I’m afraid you’re still missing it. Your uphill hike test is as narrow minded, short sighted and shallow as a woman asking a guy to fix her sink or see if he gives her a fancy piece of jewelry for Valentine’s Day as a means to determine whether he’s worthy.

          In other words, you can have a perfectly happy marriage if your wife doesn’t walk with you every day. It’s exactly what I tell fit women about guys with a bit of a gut. But everyone is so narcissistic to think that they deserve someone just like them but better (and without your flaws). Again, not how relationships work. I used to think my wife had to read literary fiction because I did. She doesn’t. I used to think that I needed to be with a liberal, Jewish, atheist like me. My wife is none of the above. So stop looking to date your clone, my friend. Choose a woman who accepts you, appreciates you and admires you – and treat her like gold. That’s a happy life.

        2. Tom10

          @ Buck25 #26.2.1
          Thanks for your well-considered response.
            
          “I’m Southern, Tom, and some of us have an attachment to the native soil that’s just visceral; if you’re not of our culture, you wouldn’t understand, and that’s ok.”
            
          Fair enough; I’m from a culture with a long history of travel and emigration, so spending large periods of one’s life in different places all over the world is almost the norm. Therefore you’re right, I probably wouldn’t understand.
            
          “bear in mind that as an African American, he lives in a subculture where Black men as a group have been demonized, shut out and marginalized in a way you and I could never imagine”
            
          Okay, another good point: I have no way of appreciating his experiences. Perhaps, on second thoughts, my tone to him was a bit harsh (yikes I didn’t mean to sound “savage”) but I’d still like to see what his — or anyone’s – vision of what a “fair” or “right” dating world looks like.
            
          That said, I certainly don’t come from a position of privilege either, and despite having a few “dating” advantages, I have had other severe disadvantages to deal with in life. However, I refuse to allow them hold me back. In fact, I see over-coming obstacles as a strength, rather than a hindrance
            
          Now that you say it, my theory about mating selection does have a slight taste of eugenics and other unpleasant associations. Perhaps I should keep one that under wraps from now on. Hmmm.
            
          “Which raises this question: is this current iteration “progress”,   or proof that no truly bad idea ever dies”
            
          Well I guess that’s one of the themes worth exploring here on this blog. I guess time will tell…
            
          Having thought about it for a while I think it goes in cycles. Another fatal STD could appear in a generation and suddenly sexual behavior and gender dynamics will quickly change. Or another war. Or another political/religious ideology. When one looks at the frescoes in Pompeii it becomes clear that we’re no different to people who lived a long time ago…
            
          As an old man once said: “the thing with you kids these days is you think you’re the first ones to ever discover sex”
            
          “When I was dating online, I had a simple test for this. If the woman had any positive attributes on first meeting, and showed interest, I made the second date joining me on my daily walk- five miles, up and down hills, no stops, at military cadence”
            
          I dunno man, that doesn’t seem like much of a fun date to me. Although I guess I’m still at an age where I’m trying to bed her asap, therefore a 5 mile military hike would be the last thing I’d consider doing on a date. But I’m glad it worked out for ya 🙂

        3. Karmic Equation

          “If the woman had any positive attributes on first meeting, and showed interest, I made the second date joining me on my daily walk- five miles, up and down hills, no stops, at military cadence.”

          Well, there’s your first clue they’re desperate. Unless the woman is a fitness fanatic, I don’t know too many women who would agree to that on any date, never mind a 2nd date.

          And if you DON’T tell those women that’s what you’re planning, and instead say something like “How about we go for a little stroll on our date?” Then wouldn’t you be guilty of lying to them? Wouldn’t that be an indication of some nefariousness of YOUR character?

          Anyway, the hike test is silly. And you pretty much guaranteed that you wouldn’t find a mate that way. And since your current gf used to be morbidly obese (perhaps when you met her? or had she already done the work and was slimmed down by the time you met her?) — If she had been morbidly obese when you met, wouldn’t she have failed your test? Or perhaps died while trying to pass it?

          And if she didn’t pass that test, wouldn’t you have missed out on the wonderful woman you have as your partner now?

          That is the point Evan’s making. Shit tests are just shit tests.

          The only way to get to know someone is to spend time with them and being open to who they are.

    3. 26.3
      Adrian

      Buck25, I apologize for replying to late to you, ever since I went back to  grad school to get my PhD, I’ve been overwhelmed and had little time for my guilty pleasure  that is  visiting this site.

       

      I’m not stating that men do not face hardships in dating, especially if he isn’t that attractive. But when you commented on my and Tom10’s looks, it seems you neglected the parts of our post where we both mentioned that our looks didn’t help us much in the dating world.

       

      It was only when I (and I assume Tom10 as well) started to actively make an effort and put in work to get dates and girlfriends, that things started to change in my dating life. The work I’m talking about is what Evan and Karmic Equation keep defending… courting.

       

      Looks aren’t a magic solution to the problems of dating, they are only a part of a set of tools needed to be successful in the dating   game.

      1. 26.3.1
        Buck25

        Adrian,

        Looks may not be a “magic solution”; one does need a little more; confidence and some semblance of charm , for starters. Those aren’t that difficult, really. I’ve seen plenty of guys very average in intelligence, and pretty deficient in real character, courage and achievement do just fine., IF they had height, (6’+), a handsome face and a modest amount of confidence and charm. However, I have seen many men who had everything BUT those first two characteristics have difficulty even getting a date with average to slightly below-average women. There, character, achievement, integrity, impeccable dress and grooming , a background in actual leadership, and even charm seems to be second(or lower) order characteristics which even mature women did NOT appear to notice, if there was any handsome man over 6 feet tall around. So whatever else you do or don’t do (don’t know you, don’t judge you), if you pic is drawing 8.8 ratings, you ARE at a considerable advantage over any of the rest of us, who don’t look like that,   and you (and any similarly advantaged man) retain that advantage, even if another man is your unquestioned superior in every other respect, but your “inferior” in height and looks alone. I don’t begrudge you your good fortune, like I said before, but don’t act like we’re all playing on a level field, because we obviously are NOT.

  7. 27
    Karmic Equation

    @Tom10,

    You know, your compliments are going straight to my head…as well as my heart. Thank you, dear Tom.

    A male friend of mine who’s divorced but now has been in a happy relationship for 3 years, says to me one. “You smell so good!” And I looked at him and said “Thank you. I think R (my bf) can’t smell anything. He’s never told me I smell good.”

    Him: Doesn’t he know the rule? Do something nice and say something nice every day to your girl. She’s happy, you’re happy, right?

    Me: Yeah, that’s right. You should tell R that rule. He didn’t get that memo!<with a laugh>

    You compliment your future wife with fulsome, heartfelt compliments like that regularly and she’s going to adore you for the rest of her life.

    1. 27.1
      Buck25

      Karmic,

      I couldn’t respond directly to your reply above, but just to clarify, those women who I gave the “walk test ” to, ALL CLAIMED (operative word) in their profiles, and subsequent conversation via email and phone, to be athletic, active women who worked out regularly and enjoyed a high energy lifestyle. ALL had comments in their profiles about “NO couch potatoes wanted” and similar, and most if not all made some reference to being tired of men lying about their height, weight, activity level, etc.. That last is especially interesting (and I can think of a few other words, as well) considering, that,   in each case, the woman who showed up for the first meeting was obviously not as she had described herself (in fact, these had done in their own profiles, exactly what they had berated men for doing).

      Evan already pointed out   that virtually everybody lies online; there’s just one little problem. I don’t. I guess that makes me stupid, not to add a couple inches to my height, take six or seven years off my age, but I’d feel like a fraud doing that, so I didn’t. I never put anything in my profile that wasn’t true.

      Now Karmic, if these women had been who they said they were, that little walk would have been just pleasant exercise for them; as I said, it’s part of my normal routine. The point, my dear Karmic, was less about obesity/lack of fitness; than it was about deliberately (and pretty extensively), LYING about it.

      Actually I hadn’t met my girlfriend back when she was going through her struggles with her weight. By the time we became acquainted she was working at a firm I do business with, she was still losing weight, but all of the worst of it was behind her. Neither of us was even available to date; I had recently separated from my now Ex, and she was just beginning the divorce process herself. We became friends who occasionally chatted over a quick lunch or a cup of coffee; and for almost two years, that’s all we were. She knew I did a lot of active stuff, and would ask me about it in conversation; what was it like to do some of the things she hadn’t been able to try before; to ski, to parasail, to zip line, or go rafting: And so I told her, as best I could, and eventually, this year, I started showing her, one thing, and then another. She had a blast…and so did I! As the months went by, we started enjoying each other’s company more and more, and you can guess the rest.   Now true, she had already lost most of the weight when we first met: I only know that part of her life from the story   and old pictures she’s shared with me; but unlike those woman who would rather lie about their weight than try to change, she had the courage to actually DO something about it, and she did. She dared to do the work to become the woman she wanted to be, and became more than she even imagined. I love the way we enjoy all the fun we have now, but she is without a doubt the toughest, most determined, most courageous woman I’ve ever known;   and yet, she’s as utterly feminine and gentle as a woman can be. She’s one pretty amazing package. Oh, and the walk? She’s done it with me many times. The first time, she wanted to just see if she could do it… and when she made it, she had the biggest smile on her face; just utter joy in accomplishing something that for most of her life, she couldn’t have done at all; but then, that’s how she is, every time she conquers a new challenge. Sharing those moments with her, is just…awesome!

      1. 27.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        That was a long explanation without answering my question:

        Did YOU lie to those women?

        I think you did.

        So if we applied that “liars have no character” filter to you, then you have no character, then, right?

        Why were you so angry at those women? Other than lack of self-awareness and suffering from hypocrisy, did those women do anything to YOU to deserve that lesson you decided to teach them?

        Would teaching those unfit, lying women a lesson really have punished the women you were truly angry at? The good looking, fit ones, who bypassed you on their way to someone younger and better looking?

        Karma doesn’t work that way, Buck. Do good and be good and good things come your way, eventually.

        Take it upon yourself to punish other people for whatever unforgivable sin you think they committed? Karma looks askance at that and punishes the punisher.

        So don’t do it. Have pity on them instead. Avoid them if you can. Because hypocritical and un-self-aware people can be  toxic and very likely will never find happiness.

        1. Buck25

          Karmic,

          No, I most certainly did NOT lie to those women, not a single one of them. I had told every one of them, both in my profile at the time, and directly   again when I issued the invitation, that the walk was part of my daily routine (100% true), that I found it easy and enjoyable (100% true) that I usually finished in an hour or less (100% true) and the distance. Whether they believed what I told them, I can’t answer for, but I clearly was not joking. In several cases, I was frankly surprised they agreed to join me, but they did; what motivated them to do so is a matter for speculation; for all I know, perhaps they thought they could do it.

          Interesting, all the same, that you pretty much called me a liar, not because of any indication of dishonesty on my part, but simply because I used a method you disapprove of   for dealing with proven liars.   Do note, that every single one of those women had every right and opportunity to decline my invitation. I note a lot of hypocrisy on this issue of lying, among the population of women online; I saw a constant stream of righteous female indignation, often in all caps in their profiles, condemning men in the harshest terms for   (of all things) LYING , in their profiles, emails, etc.   That’s fine, except those same women were willing to condone the very same behavior   by other women, and indeed, in most of the cases we’re discussing my response to at the moment, by THEMSELVES! I’m sorry, Karmic, those who demand total honesty from the opposite gender, while asserting for   their own gender and themselves an absolute right to lie whenever it suits their fancy, have neither a leg nor a moral compass to stand on, and if they fall on their face (with or without my assistance), have no one to blame but themselves.

          As for anger at the younger, fitter women who didn’t respond,   you’re assuming that, but why?    A few did; there was simply no mutual attraction,   but that’s neither my fault nor theirs. As for the rest, the word would be disappointment, and some frustration, that more didn’t respond, but that’s all. I’m not privy to their decision making process, or their wants, beyond what was expressed in their profiles. Since there’s no feedback, I can never be sure why, nor does it really matter why, they chose as they did. I think about the worst you could say, is that I took out some of my frustration on some obvious, deliberate liars.   I make no apologies for that; not to them, and certainly not to you; I’ve not wronged you, nor for that matter, anyone else who didn’t clearly deserve it.

          I have to wonder, whether you’d be quite so outraged at a woman who similarly “shit tested” men, who appeared to be less than congruent with their claims for themselves. Given the well-known and very widespread prevalence of women “shit testing” men for all sorts of reasons (damn near universal, in my experience over many years), I’d be very surprised if you were in fact so outraged.You have every right to do it, and men, likewise, have every right to comply, ignore…or dish it right back at you! Isn’t equality fun?

        2. Karmic Equation

          I’ve called out one poster for shit testing. She denied it was a shit test. As we were debating she went into an ad hominem attack because she couldn’t defend her position so she decided to attack the debater instead.

          And I called out another OP for doing a shit test on a guy.

          So yes, I’m an equal opportunity shit-testing-caller-outer.

          My opinion is that shit testing is for people who don’t know how to read their fellow human beings. The shit test is their proxy for patient  observation. Instead of taking the time to get to know someone’s character, they shortcut the process and administer the shit test so as not to waste time.

          I believe that developing a good people-reader is better than shit-testing. No animals are harmed that way.

          Have a good Thanksgiving 🙂

  8. 28
    McLovin

    For all the bashing and piling on you just did, Evan and Karmic, you didn’t answer the question.

     

    Why should I pay for what this same woman has given to other guys for free?

     

    I seriously want an answer, if you can muster it.

    1. 28.1
      Karmic Equation

      Let’s answer a question with a question.

      Why do you DESERVE what others got for free?

      1. 28.1.1
        McLovin

        I didn’t say I deserve it, simply that I refuse to pay for it. And why should I?

         

        I find this is usually a good question to gauge people’s stance on dating culture.

         

        You still haven’t answered it, BTW.

         

        But getting down to the meat of things: this is exactly why I have adopted my current strategy that you and Evan call weak, wimpy, beta etc. There is absolutely no reason to try to ‘grow to be hot in her eyes,’ because that doesn’t happen. Courting will only prove that you are an acceptable “beta bucks.”

        Since women are the decision-makers in the dating market, there is no reason to  court (i.e. dance like a clown for her begrudging approval). If a woman isn’t crazy  enough about me to  throw caution to the wind and pursue me,  then she isn’t worth dating. She certainly isn’t worth having a relationship with.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          “Acceptable beta bucks” get married and live happily ever after.

          Your stance: “If a woman isn’t crazy enough about me to throw caution to the wind and pursue me, then she isn’t worth dating. She certainly isn’t worth having a relationship with.”

          If that doesn’t sound a lot like the passive, feminine, entitled women you decry, I don’t know what does. Your way is simply INEFFECTIVE to achieve your stated goals – unless your stated goals are to rant on women’s message boards, and maybe convince some low-self-esteem women to chase you for the reward of not getting a commitment.

        2. Karmic Equation

          “I didn’t say I deserve it, simply that I refuse to pay for it.”

          That is called hair-splitting. You are implying that if others didn’t pay for it, you should also not pay for it, so, in effect, you’re saying, “If others get it for free, so should I.”

          So, I’ll ask the question YOU refuse to answer: Why should YOU get for free what others got for free? Why should you?

           

  9. 29
    McLovin

    “He is still “not-hot” but she’ll give him a chance IF he courts properly. And THEN he can “grow” to be hot in her eyes.”

     

    Karmic,

     

    Do you understand why a lot of guys don’t see this as a good deal?

    1. 29.1
      Karmic Equation

      Nope. Not-hot guys can get a girl above his league if he courts her.

      While a guy will sleep with a girl lower than his league, he’ll never be her committed bf or husband.

      So men get a better deal, because he CAN get what he wants if he courts her and grows to be hot in her eyes. No matter how many times the ugly chick bangs you, she’s not going to be hot in yours.

      So stop. Men get the better deal in relationships if it ends before kids.

      Yes,  women get the better deal if a relationship ends after kids.

      So the moral of the story isn’t to “stop courting” — It’s either “Don’t have kids…ever” or “Choose a confident, secure, quality woman to commit to”.

      If you’re can’t get confident, secure, quality women to date you, then you’re doing the right thing, just date the ones who will date you  and then dump them when they want commitment.

      The pseudo love that comes from a sexual relationship is not the same as the love that evolves  from a committed relationship based on compatibility beyond just sex.

      1. 29.1.1
        McLovin

        Sorry, Karmic. I just reject your premise completely. A guy who gets put on the “not-hot” list will never, ever, EVER make the “hot” list.

         

        He may make the “acceptable, for now” (I.e. beta bucks) list.

         

        Love…hahaha. How quaint.

        1. Karmic Equation

          You can accept or reject whatever your little heart desires. But it doesn’t change reality.

          Once a woman falls in love with her “not hot” guy. He is hot. To her.

          My current bf falls into that category. I considered him attractive, but “not-h0t”. However, now I consider him very hot. My eyes drink him in whenever I see him wearing dark blue. He’s balding, but slender. Doesn’t manscape, which I had grown accustomed to with my other bfs.

          The bf before him. 6ft 260 lbs with a big beer gut. I couldn’t bang him enough. Drove me wild with a particular cologne that just complemented his natural scent like you wouldn’t believe. But he was a successful player, so he had confidence and charisma unmatched by any man I’ve ever met. He was also a narcissist and temperamentally volatile. But still hot as heck, not just to me, but many other women. I thought he was “attractive” when I met him. Didn’t think of him as “hot” until after we’d been an item for several months. But once he crossed over to the “hot” category, he remains hot.

          I’m sure other women have similar experiences.

      2. 29.1.2
        Buck25

        Well Karmic, I guess I must be some kind of freak then, because I won’t “bang” an ugly woman even ONCE.   Quite honestly, I’d rather pay a hooker (some of whom don’t look that bad) than ever even kiss a repulsive woman, much less go to bed with her.   Yes, I know a lot of guys don’t care. Then again, and I’ll try to put this politely, I have known one or two fools who would abuse the livestock down on the farm; a practice I never cared to experiment with either. Now that I think on it, there’s not much difference, at that, in the worst cases. In fairness, maybe that’s more a problem in my age group; I’ve found aging badly and obesity can make for some really nauseating combinations., that no personality could possibly make up for. Please try to understand that for the few remaining years I have, total isolation would be preferable to waking up to looking at something like that each morning . I know it’s rare for you, but have you never seen a man so ugly that the mere thought of even touching him (non-sexually) made you cringe? If so, you might have some slight inkling of how the very sight of a repulsive woman (which is about 70% of women over 60 in America today) affects me; can’t tell where the wrinkles stop and the folds of blubber begin.

        I noted your suggestion in an earlier post, that we men should keep the “Hot guys” from “slumming” with average women. Now, since those guys get far more than their share of sex, and we all know it, I think that’s a wonderful idea; that is, if you can tell us exactly how (within the laws imposed by this now rather aggression-phobic society) you expect we can do this; I’m all ears on that one, really!

    2. 29.2
      Evan Marc Katz

      Because you’re so concerned with “being right” that you don’t consider the option of “being effective.”

      You’re hung up on the idea that she doesn’t see you the way she sees Brad Pitt. Big fucking deal. How about you be the best McLovin you can be and land a woman who appreciates what you do bring to the table. It starts with you acknowledging that you’re no Brad Pitt, she’s no Angelina Jolie, and yet you can still have an amazing life as a couple. My advice to you is EXACTLY what I tell women. Don’t worry if you’re the hottest person he’s ever dated. Just be glad that he chose you and only you.

      I’d much rather have a woman who thought I was a 6 and grew to love me like a 9, than to spend my whole adult life alone and railing against the opposite sex.

      1. 29.2.1
        McLovin

        Sorry, Evan it just doesn’t work this way, at least outside of rom coms. You operate on the “just world fallacy.”

         

        Passive, feminine? Ehh, if that’s your opinion, I don’t care. I have given an example of how I work this before, and it’s far from passive, but I don’t care to go over it again.

         

        What is the difference between me and the entitled women I decry? I don’t whine and stamp my feet when it doesn’t work.

         

        My stated goal is to extract what I want while expending as little effort and resources as humanly possible, and shielding myself from the drama, hassles, tantrums and bullshit  that I’ve come to know as “modern woman.”

         

        BTW, none of you has answered the question yet.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Dude, none of us remember your question. Nor do we think that if we did answer it, it would make a dent in your peculiar selfish world view where dating is a power struggle between men and women and the only way for you to win is to make sure she loses. Healthy relationships are based on generosity, selflessness and compromise. I see no indication in your posts that you have any interest in any of these. So remind me: why are you here again – on a blog designed to give advice for women on how to make healthier relationship choices? Is it to remind women what NOT to look for in a man? \

          That’s not even an indictment of your character. You may be a great guy. But everything indicates that you’d rather be single, complain about women, fuck the hottest women you can with the least amount of effort. Great. Go do it. Just stop complaining about the life you’ve chosen. I would guess that “acceptable betas” are much happier with the outcomes in their life and don’t see the need to do what you and Obsidian are doing – preaching pro-man, anti-woman rhetoric to a bunch of women. Talk about a waste of your breath.

    3. 29.3
      Noemi

      Not so quick, McLovin–  think about the fact that at least a not-hot man can grow to be hot in a woman’s eyes, whereas a not-hot woman will NEVER  grow to be hot in a man’s eyes.

  10. 30
    McLovin

    The question is: why should I pay for what she’s given/will give to hotter men for free??

     

    Seriously, Evan. Sell me.

     

    The fact of the matter is that sexual empowerment has poisoned the well in a way that is never going to be reversed. The marriage rate is in freefall, so is the birth rate. These are not things that are going to change.

     

    You’re probably right, though. Those “beta bucks” probably are happy…..for now. Until the wifey decides she needs to “find herself”  and goes  Eat, Pray, Love and leaves him with the bill.

     

    I’m just feasting on the  carcass of a dead ideal, Evan,  and taking advantage of the ensuing chaos  before something “new” takes its place.

     

    I’ve told you why I’m here:  To read the  enemy’s playbook and get an occasional LOL.

     

     

    1. 30.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      McLovin,

      This is really simple, man.

      Life is not about right or wrong. It’s about effective and ineffective. It’s about what works as opposed to what doesn’t work.

      I tell women what works: if you’re an alpha female, choose a more beta guy. Appreciate his easygoing and flexible nature. Don’t overvalue selfish, narcissistic alphas who don’t treat you well. Similarly, don’t get too hung up on chemistry or education or height. Judge a man for his kindness, consistency, communication, and desire for commitment. Look for a relationship that’s a 7 in chemistry and a 10 in compatibility and you’ll have a very happy life together.

      I’m not sure if you want to argue with any of that, but if you do, you’re fighting a losing battle. That’s what works. That’s what’s most effective. That’s what I did. That’s what all of my happy clients have done. That’s what I recommend women do, and that’s what I recommend you do as well. So, to your questions:

      1. Why should I pay for what she’s given to hotter men for free? Because life isn’t fair. Because life isn’t a meritocracy. Because being cheap and aloof is pretty much a losing strategy for everybody except for the “alpha fucks” type…and even for those guys as well. Unless your actual GOAL is to never have a real relationship, then, by all means, keep treating women like shit. It’s just a losing strategy if you want a QUALITY woman in a COMMITTED relationship. Women who commit to alpha assholes are committing to them IN SPITE of their poor treatment, not BECAUSE of it. Regular guys for the most part, can’t get away with it – no more than the average looking woman can get away with being crazy/bitchy. Why is this hard for you to grasp?

      2. The marriage rate is not in freefall. Nor is the birthrate. If anything, different communities are being affected differently – people with less education and income are FAR more likely to have kids out of wedlock and never get married. But for my audience of college educated women? Life is still good. Here are a bunch of facts from my upcoming webinar:

      – Fact: 96% of people eventually get married. (Statistical Abstract of the United States, 2012-2013)

      – Fact: College-educated women who marry over the age of 30 have only a 20% divorce rate. (New York Times)

      – Fact: The likelihood your man cheats on you is less than 6% per year. (PsychCentral).

      – Fact: Men fall in love faster and need less personal space than women. (Match.com)

      – Fact: 65% of men are open to remarrying after divorce, compared with 49% of women. (Pew Research)

      – Fact: One-third of marriages in the past decade started online. (University of Chicago).

      – Fact: Women in the top 15% of earners are more likely to be married. (Council on Contemporary Families)

      – Fact: An educated single woman at age 40 is much more likely to marry in the next decade than her less educated counterparts. (Wharton Business School)

      So, just because you and your MGOTW friends are opting out doesn’t mean the rest of the world is following. People still want love and always will. Both men and women have to adapt – men to more masculine women, women to more feminine men – but pretty much anyone who wants to find a partner can (and does) find a partner. You are just so surrounded by negative reinforcement that you forget that there are a lot of people like me out there. Sounds like Karl Rove on Fox News who couldn’t believe Obama won because no one he knew voted for him. Your whole world is confirmation bias. You’re entitled to surround yourself with angry likeminded folks who want to think that love isn’t real. But you’re wrong. Me, my clients, and pretty much everyone I know is living proof that couples can be happy.

      3. I’m not a fan of the Eat, Pray, Love phenomenon either. But it’s really no different than the middle aged guy who leaves his wife for a younger woman. People make bad decisions when they’re young. They get married out of passion at age 25 but have no idea who they’ll be at 40. Then they want out. Take your time. Live your life. Get some experience. Learn how to be an adult and communicate. Figure out what works and what doesn’t. THEN get married. Most people who do it this way end up married to a good partner.

      4. “A dead ideal”? Only according to you and your ilk. Virtually everyone I know is married because I moved to the suburbs and my wife is the head of the PTA. So all we see are couples just like us. All you see are guys like you. I’m not denying you exist. Why are you so intent on denying that people like me (and the women mentioned all over my site) don’t exist, aren’t actually happy are ultimately doomed? I’ve got an answer for you: it’s because our very existence challenges your entire worldview. In other words, my worldview doesn’t crumble because a bunch of angry guys pop off about how much women suck. But your worldview depends on you being RIGHT – that women are the inferior sex, that nobody’s happy, etc. Because then you don’t have to look at yourself as the common denominator in your own failure. We see this from women as well. I’ll say something like, “Trust men,” and they’ll come back with “you CAN’T trust men! Men are pigs!” It’s easier for them to believe this than it is to believe what’s patently obvious to anyone else: they CHOSE pigs. That doesn’t represent all men. You’ve CHOSEN the wrong women – selfish, entitled, critical, etc, etc. I don’t deny they exist. I’m saying that if you stop being so guided by your dick and choose a woman who is a little more average looking (like you), you can still have a really great sex life AND have a woman who treats you like gold. They exist, but not if you give up on finding them.

      Now that you’ve been thoroughly debunked and eviscerated, you have two choices:

      1. Tell me I’m wrong, and continue trolling my site – as if earnest, kind people who want to find love are any sort of “enemy.” Waste of everyone’s time, but hey, knock yourself out.

      2. Admit that I’m right. I encourage both men AND women to compromise on the outside stuff to get the inside stuff – but not to the point that anyone should lack attraction in his/her relationship. Admit that you are angry that life is unfair and instead of working with what you’ve got, you choose to rail against reality and put up a futile fight that doesn’t even make you happy. Admit that there are just as many people like me as there are people like you – which is evidence enough that being happily married does not make me some sort of unicorn. Finally, admit that you’d rather be alone for the rest of your life than concede my points – because to have your worldview crumble would be akin to giving up your religion. And you would rather be RIGHT (according to your cadre of fellow unhappy MGOTWs) than to be EFFECTIVE (and find someone who loves you, accepts you and appreciate you).

      You’re entitled to do whatever you want, but this is the end of your free coaching. I prefer working with people who are open to learning.

      1. 30.1.1
        Adrian

        WOW!!! This gets a standing ovation.

         

        For what’s it’s worth Evan. When you come hard like this, it  DOES help  many  of your readers  of both sexes  who  are  feeling angry at how unfair the dating world is.

         

        But as you continually say, it’s not about fair, it is about doing what is effective. This applies to both genders. We can be stubborn and single or adaptive and in a loving relationship.

         

        As much as I know how the  comments section irritates you at times,  I also hope you  know that every time you reply to  one of your dissenters,  you DO help other reader grow.    You answer so many more  “specific  and challenging”  questions in the comments, then you do in your normal blog post.

        So for what it’s worth… Thank you.

  11. 31
    Buck25

    @ Evan. Well, well, well, look who’s sore. Did   I strike a nerve by suggesting that it’s ok for a guy to do to women, what every single woman on earth does to every single man she meets? Don’t quibble, don’t use weasel words; you know it, I know it, and every man here who’s ever dated a woman knows it. Sorry, I call Bravo Sierra on that one!

    Look, as far as your relationship, I don’t try to tell you who or what you should like, be attracted to, love, or whatever. That’s your business, and if you and your wife get along, in spite of (so far as I can see from your comments,) not having very many attitudes, activities, or even beliefs and interests in common, then fantastic for you both,   and I wish you a lifetime of happiness together, OK? But just because that floats your personal boat, doesn’t mean that can or will work for everyone else. Now, it’s not enough for you that I accept a woman no matter whether her appearance is completely nauseatingly repulsive to me; if she wants me, I owe her my love and devotion, right, because she’s a female, and she has the right to everything she desires, while a man (except you, naturally)   has no right to expect anything? Well, that’s a big reach, but iff I can’t hope for any chemistry, or sex, I can at least expect some sort of compatibility, right, or is any woman who is interested the sole judge of that, too? That’s essentially what you’re saying, isn’t it? that I have no right to discover whether a woman can share my lifestyle and activities? I have a right to say no, just as a woman has. I have a right to test, for compatibility, or anything else, the same way a woman does. I don’t lose that right “because Evan says so”. You may not approve of my methods (I don’t care), but are you seriously going to suggest that you, or any random woman who wants something from me, are a better judge of what’s compatible with my lifestyle, core beliefs, and values, than I am? Because if you’re saying that, you’re saying that you and your sacred cows (er, women), have the right to tell me what to think, too! I hope I misunderstand, because if that’s what you’re advocating, you are far, far across the line. I should want to spend the rest of my days with someone I have exactly NOTHING in common with, because that’s what SHE wants? What on earth for?

    I hope you let this part in, because it’s a valuable tool for combatting the common tendency (both genders) to lie in online profiles, etc. Not fudge, not fib, LIE! I don’t do that, and I don’t appreciate anyone who does. I tested those women, because every single one of them indicated on her profile that she was “athletic”,    “works out five times a week” and wanted “a fit athletic man”. There were pics (i’m convinced some had to have been five years old). Needless to say, the woman who showed up at the first   meet, was…a little less than congruent with that description. Oh what a tangled we we weave, and all that, so, I decided to neatly wrap these liars in their own web. Not only did I get the pleasure of making them actually get off their lazy fat backsides; I’ll bet they thought twice about telling the same lie again. I know a couple did, because they changed their profiles. That’s mean? Not half as mean as many things I’ve seen women do. Turnabout’s entirely fair play, whether you personally like it or not, Evan. Equality is a two-way street!

    In any case, It doesn’t matter now. I’m in a relationship with a woman I met in real life. I’d have been there sooner, except she’s two years younger that the minimum age (50) I set, and after all the nasty things I’ve heard (primarily from women) about older men/younger women, I wanted to be extra cautious. My profile is down, and I’m out of the online madhouse. Best of luck to you, your clients, and all who choose to play the game. In closing, I think OLD works great, for a younger crowd; I don’t think it works for a man my age, honestly, but then, I’m not typical, and a more sedentary, slower, less active guy my age might find what he needs. I’m just not there yet, so for most of that audience, I’m a product without a market. Thanks to you and your readers for allowing me to share some final thoughts here.

    1. 31.1
      Buck25

      Evan, just one more thing. It’s probably something you won’t understand simply because of the stage of life you’re in. You’re still at an age where you may be thinking of having a family together; most of your life, and hopefully whatever relationship you have, is ahead of you. My life, is mostly behind me. That’s not so bad, actually. I’ve had my ups and downs, good times and bad; I’ve lived hard, but thoroughly. Put it another way, at your age, you have far more to either gain or lose, than I do. It’s a pretty fair bet that I’m not going to have thirty or forty years with anyone. So this time for me, is not a desperate search for a mate; I’ve had that. It’s not even a search for love, I’ve had that too. This part of my life, basically is a bonus, extra gravy, or the icing on the cake. I have every incentive to maximize whatever I can get from whatever time I have left, and that’s what I’ve tried to do. One thing I decided early on, is that I would not settle for something that didn’t feel real, whole, and right. The odds of getting that at my age, weren’t very good, but would I really have been so much worse off, If I didn’t get it? At least, I gave myself a chance, and now, in an unexpected way, I may just have lucked out that final time. If that’s how it ends up, I’m a very very lucky man; if not, well, it’s still been a great ride!

      1. 31.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        My friend, that’s perfectly fair. There are different incentives at different ages. At age 43 with two little kids, I’ve made the right decision for me. If don’t want love or a mate – and simply want a warm, firm body every other week – that’s your business. I would just urge you to be as ethical as you can be without stringing along a woman who desires more of a commitment. Men who do so are far more character deficient than women who check the fit and toned box but are really “average.”

        1. Buck25

          Evan,

          Completely agree with you on stringing a woman along; that isn’t right…ever. It’s why I try to go slow with any new relationship. I think, if we’re honest with ourselves, we usually know pretty soon(maybe not after two or three dates, but pretty soon) whether we feel something that’s just OK, or something we’d seriously want long term, and if it’s not the latter, it’s time to bow out. I don’t have an exact timetable, but after two or three months, if it doesn’t feel like something I can see myself committed to for the long haul, it’s time to move on.

          One clarification, though; I’m not just looking for “a firm body every other week” just because I enjoy a lot of active physicality in my life; I simply want a partner who can (and wants to) share my lifestyle, because that feels good to her too. I wouldn’t describe my girlfriend as a “firm body”; she’s distinctly curvy (some who prefer the reed-slim type would call her slightly overweight) BUT, she’s very active, pretty darn fit, and enjoys physical activity as much as I do. After all, she’s enjoying doing things now that for most of her life she simply couldn’t. Before I ever met her, she made the effort to transform herself   from a woman literally crippled by obesity since childhood into the healthy woman she always wanted to be. It took her years to do it, but she made her own miracle. She didn’t do it for someone else, she did it for herself. Can you imagine the sheer joy of being able to actually do the things   that for most of your life you could only sit and watch others do? That’s what she has! Now, she wants to grab on to every active, wonderful moment her new life holds! A woman reborn, at an age when many are slowing down, and an old warrior hanging on to every last bit of gusto life has left; two admittedly unusual people, and both a little extreme for some tastes; a man and a woman who came by very different paths to a passion for enjoying every moment of life to the max. I think we just might make it together.

    2. 31.2
      Evan Marc Katz

      So many misreadings, so little time.

      1. I don’t advocate shit tests or games for anybody of any gender. I am remarkably consistent in my willingess to call out ineffective behavior in both genders. Your take is “two wrongs make a right.” You’re 67 years old. Do you really believe that?

      2. I didn’t say that I have no activities or interests in common with my wife. You said that. I said that I’m liberal, she’s moderate. I said that I’m an intellectual snob, she’s more of the sitcom/pop fiction type. I said that I’m a non believer and she’s Catholic. I used to think these things defined me, just like you think being athletic defines you. It doesn’t – unless you make it that way. If you raise the bar so high that only women who run 6 minute miles can pass, that’s your right. It’s also your right to be alone forever. I don’t care. Just know that no marriage ever survived because of low body fat. Marriages thrive for the aforementioned reasons: consistency, communication, kindness, compromise and commitment. Yes, you have to be attracted, but you don’t have to be perfect clones. My wife and I are both extroverts; we like to talk and laugh and watch TV and films and plays and throw parties and raise our kids. Who gives a shit if she and I like the EXACT same things? Only single people say crap like that. So don’t put words in my mouth – you all or nothing thinker. I didn’t say have NOTHING in common or NO attraction. I said to let go of your hiking test. It’s dumb. Period.

      3. I don’t edit people’s comments unless there’s a direct insult of me or another reader. Say whatever you want if you stick with the argument itself. Notice that in the same paragraph that you complain about women being cruel, you participate in cruel behavior. Two wrongs make a right. Third grade stuff. You must be proud.

      4. Glad you’re happy with your relationship. I don’t advocate for games or madhouses. I’ve had many clients in their sixties find love. If you did it in real life, good for you. No hard feelings. But please, for your own sake, don’t delight in bad behavior, don’t wish ill on another gender, and please don’t base your relationship on how much you have in common – rather, how she TREATS you. Good luck.

  12. 32
    Buck25

    Evan,

    In my experience, anyway, when a woman “shit tests”   a guy, it’s usually to see whether how he responds is consistent with the image he is presenting . It’s part of a woman’s B.S. detection circuitry, and they are usually very, very good at it; they have to be, given how guys will say or do almost anything to get laid. Now, in real life a woman can put up a phony front, too, but there, anything we can deduce from her appearance, and demeanor face to face is in the open. Online, where all we have is pictures and a profile, women can and do believe they can lie with impunity; in fact, many of them will lie, when the truth would serve them better. So they demand a fit active man, describe themselves as athletic when in fact their lifestyle is sedentary. Maybe they see it as their only chance to attract a “hot” guy, maybe they just figure it’ll get them a free dinner; I really don’t care what the motive is. It really shouldn’t matter. Tell me, Evan, does it seem reasonable to you, that   someone who purports to want a long term relationship ( a thing in which trust is maybe just a little important, no?) would elect to start out by lying to a prospective partner (especially in an area which said prospective partner’s profile indicates is of some importance)? Let’s try it the other way round, shall we? If a woman’s profile says she’s into triathlons, and really wants a man who can be a training partner for her, would it be ok for a man to say he’s a marathoner and distance runner, when in fact, he can’t do a 10k training run on his best day? I don’t think so, do you? The way I see it, if I present myself to a woman as being “X”,   then I had damn well better be prepared to show that I am in fact “X” if called upon. If I can’t, then I shouldn’t take it ill, when my lie is exposed. And when a woman   tells a man that she’s active, and “athletic”, she needs to be sure she both looks and acts the part, or not be upset when her lie is exposed. Evan, if a woman told you that, and showed up for a first meeting looking like she hadn’t gotten off the couch in the last ten years, you can’t tell me that wouldn’t peg the needle on your own B.S. meter. Neither a man nor a woman needs to apologize for “shit testing” an apparent liar; it could be even considered generous to give them a chance to prove otherwise, if it’s really obvious, That’s not playing games, Evan;   no man or woman who’s been truthful and authentic need fear it. It’s not “two wrongs make a right” at all; how can it be “wrong” to expose the truth as efficiently as possible, in an environment where lying is very prevalent, among both genders? Tell me, if a man’s a proven liar, would you suggest to your woman client that she waste any more time on him? Somehow, I don’t think you would. Incidentally, please don’t put words in my mouth, either, I didn’t complain of women being cruel; I simply said that I’d seen them do things at least as mean as my little “walk test”, and that as anywhere else things are purported to be equal, turnabout is fair play; I didn’t say it was “nice”, I said “fair”,   and it certainly is, by any objective standard. I don’t expect to deliberately lie to a woman to get her attention, without being called out on it; neither should a woman expect to lie to me, deliberately, and not be called out on it,. Once again, avoiding the whole issue in the first place is simple, for men and woman alike: Just TELL THE TRUTH in the first place, dammit!. How difficult is that? You might not get a date, or get your email answered, but at least you’ll still have your integrity. I happen to think that matters.

    By the way, on the HOW SHE TREATS YOU thing; that’s nice; now tell me,   if   woman lies to me, blatantly and deliberately, just how well is she likely to treat me otherwise? Once again, would you tell a woman that a man lying to her, blatantly and deliberately, was no indicator of how he would treat her otherwise? Am I wrong to think that a woman who’s perfectly ok with out and out, unambiguous lying to me on a matter of substance, most likely has little value or respect for me (or a potential relationship)? It appears so, to me. I don’t know whether this is a regional, cultural, or generational difference of some kind, but man, where and when I come from, the adage “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!” is sound advice, ignored at one’s peril. So is the concept that “if you lied to me about one thing, what else are you willing to lie to me about?” Goes for both genders, by the way.

    1. 32.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      “If a woman’s profile says she’s into triathlons, and really wants a man who can be a training partner for her, would it be ok for a man to say he’s a marathoner and distance runner, when in fact, he can’t do a 10k training run on his best day?”

      I would say that this woman is silly. She may want a husband who is a training partner, but she doesn’t need one. So it’s not wrong for her to desire a fit man; it’s somewhat foolhardy of her to make his 10k training time into some sort of litmus test as to whether he’s a good partner.

      “Evan, if a woman told you that, and showed up for a first meeting looking like she hadn’t gotten off the couch in the last ten years, you can’t tell me that wouldn’t peg the needle on your own B.S. meter.”

      Buck, I went on 300 online dates. If you think you’re going to teach me something I don’t know, you’re gonna have to try harder. Online dating is advertising. Men lie about height, weight, age, income, education, career. Women lie primarily about age and body type. We should cease being surprised at such transgressions. When a woman showed up 20lbs heavier than her photo, I just had an extra drink, made the best of the night and didn’t come back for a second date. No need to “teach her a lesson,” which is, objectively childish, not the humanitarian mission you make it out to be.

      “if woman lies to me, blatantly and deliberately, just how well is she likely to treat me otherwise?”

      That’s an erroneous slippery slope. When a 5’7″ guy says he’s 5’9″ to try to procure a date, he’s doing so because he knows that women are judgmental about height and he wants to get his foot in the door. He probably won’t get a second date, but, to him, that’s besides the point. He wanted to get a FIRST date. To suggest that this insecure short guy is somehow a pathological liar, prone to mistreating women and cheating? A bit of a leap there, Buck. People lie online because they’re insecure that telling the truth won’t work. 67 year old fit guys shave 7 years off their age to get the attention of women in their 50s. I don’t think it’s cool. But I also don’t think it’s an indicator of poor character that you think it is.

  13. 33
    Chance

    I’m afraid that these blog entries about how men need to court miss the mark because they fail to provide women with valuable advice on what they need to do to separate themselves from other women during the early stages of a relationship.   I’m not sure that I even understand the point of them, to be honest, because they don’t seem to be consistent with the idea of helping women succeed in dating.

     

    I keep hearing that the woman’s job is to be “receptive” and “appreciative” during the courtship phase.   However, a woman isn’t really doing anything by being “receptive”.   It’s simply common sense to be kind and warm when one is socializing with others, regardless of gender.   Furthermore, it isn’t like women are suspending their desire to pay their own way for the purpose of “allowing” the man to showcase his masculinity by demonstrating that he can lead and provide.   Most women expect the man to plan and pay regardless of how independent they claim to be.    Finally, to show your appreciation for a man who calls/plans/pays is to exhibit basic manners and common decency, but it does not give a woman an edge over other women in the courtship process.   It’s a good start, but it simply demonstrates that you’re not entitled and/or socially inept.   A woman should always express her gratitude and appreciation to a man who takes the time to call/plan/pay – even if she isn’t interested in him.

     

    It’s often said that the reason why women like men who court is because the man is demonstrating that he can be a good provider and protector.   In fact, the lady in the video said the same.   So, if this is what you want from a man, then a great way to separate yourself from the pack is to show that you can be a good nurturer.   Listening to my parents talk, they would mention that it was common for girls/women to cook for the man that they just started dating to express their interest and to show that they can take care of their man (similar to how a man is showing that he can take care of his woman when he calls/plans/pays/walks on the inside of the sidewalk, etc.).   Even better, perhaps she would bake him a cake or brownies.   Why not do something like that?   That is something a lot of women don’t do these days.

     

    Also, why not make sure you support the man in his leadership when he’s taking you out (think of the girl in “A Bronx Tale” who unlocked her date’s door on the driver-side after he opened the passenger door to let her into the car).   A good example that I can think of off the top of my head was when I picked up a women a few years ago on a first date, and she just pulled out her phone to punch in the restaurant that I was taking her to because I was new to the area and I wasn’t immediately sure how to get there from her place.   I was going to do what anyone would do, which would be to punch it into the phone myself, but she beat me to it.   It was a nice gesture to show that she wanted to help me out as I was leading.

     

    1. 33.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Posts like this – even reasonable posts from reasonable guys like you, Chance – exhaust me.

      This entire blog is a testament to a guy telling women how to do things better from a guy’s point of view. The fact that so many people are harping on literally ONE thing that I told guys to do better means that I was right for getting out of the business of coaching men. Seriously, get a thicker skin.

      Telling you to court women is the ONLY point of the post. It would not make sense to write a post on how men should court women AND how women could do XYZ better. Seriously.

      The advice you gave above – be a good nurturer, actively appreciate his efforts, etc, is the core of my business. I should not have to mention it in the ONLY post I’ve written for men in ages.

      1. 33.1.1
        Chance

        Evan, thanks for your response, but get thicker skin?   Lol eeeeeeeasy there, man.   You’re preaching to the choir in my case with all the “what works” business.   You’ll get no push-back from me on that point.

         

        Your response addressed the source of my confusion.   To be specific, it is not readily apparent that this blog entry was written for men, especially in light of this very recent post written for women that basically deals with the same subject:

         

        https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/online-dating-tips-advice/is-tinder-that-bad/

         

        …and this relatively recent post directly dealing with the same subject that was written specifically for women:

         

        https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/understanding-men/why-men-need-to-court-women-again/

         

        These two posts were clearly not written for men, which was why I was always confused with the advice to some of the unreasonable male dissenters in the comment section.   This advice was always along the lines of:   “Look, you should court because that’s what works”.   That’s true, no doubt, and it’s about the best advice one can give.   However, it wasn’t consistent at all with the apparent theme of those blog entries.

         

        So that brings me back to this current post.   You gave excellent advice, brother, and the general premise of the folks who disagree with your advice is that women in their 30s/40s/50s still respond to men in the same way that they did when they were 21.   However, I think you can now see how one might see this blog entry as a variation of a theme from previous blog entries dealing with the same subject that were clearly written for women – especially when it isn’t really that clear that this blog entry was written for men.   Without clarity, posts like this run the risk of coming across as a benign attempt to establish credibility among a female client base to counter the fact that you do challenge them in other areas.

      2. 33.1.2
        Shaukat

        ”  The fact that so many people are harping on literally ONE thing that I told guys to do better means that I was right for getting out of the business of coaching men. Seriously, get a thicker skin.”

        I don’t think that the push back you’re getting from a lot of guys is necessarily because they don’t like to be told to do things differently,   Evan. After all, there is a  flourishing industry of PUAs who pride themselves on telling men what they believe  guys  should do differently with women in order to be more effective at dating, and men flock to that industry by the hundreds of thousands, and many make changes based on that advice.   I understand you don’t agree with it, but I think the disconnect has to do with the fact that a lot of guys genuinely don’t believe that courting is that effective.

        To be clear, my dissent on a previous thread to this idea of courting was based on my mistaken assumption that by ‘courting’ you meant fancy, expensive dinners on the first date. If courting means calling, planning and picking up a $40-50 dollar drink tab, then I do that and have always done it.

        I   will say a few things, however, based only on my own observations and experience.   While 99% of women will not  take the initiative in calling and initiating dates, I believe that many successful, modern women have nonetheless thawed when it comes to one component of the courting process, namely paying their share. In fact, I’ve noticed that many prefer to chip in a little at the early stages because it allows them to assert their independence in a sense. Of course, there are still many who do not, but I don’t think either stance has anything to do with low self-esteem-the women who sometimes insisted on pitching in  did not at all strike me as the type who lacked confidence.

        I think  the reason many women have adjusted in this one area has to do with technology.  Many men and women now go on a several to sometimes a dozen dates in a matter of weeks.  One female acquaintance of mine once told me that she went on ten dates in a week and  turned down a second date with all the guys who asked because she didn’t feel any chemistry.  I think most women who date like that-if they have a conscience-contribute to the bill because they realize that it would be a tad unfair to expect  to have such  a dating approach   fully subsidized.

        1. Karmic Equation

          “I think most women who date like that-if they have a conscience-contribute to the bill because they realize that it would be a tad unfair to expect  to have such  a dating approach   fully subsidized.”

          I’m not sure about other women, but as contrary as this sounds, I’ll insist on paying if I’m NOT attracted to the guy. I want to be free of any obligation to see him again.

          However, if I like the guy, I’ll offer to pay and just thank him nicely when he inevitably says, “No, I got this.”

          My reasoning is that if we see each other again, I’ll pay one of the upcoming tabs…or eventually if we end up in a relationship, he’s going to get the better end of the deal.

          Because frankly, after courting is over, and he’s your bf, most guys just sit back and absorb the nurturing, and rarely put in any effort that even comes close to his courting effort. Yes, I’m saying men get lazy after he gets the girl. And the girl ends up putting in most, if not all the effort, AFTER commitment.

          I’m not saying I mind doing the nurturing. In fact, I don’t mind at all. It comes pretty naturally. What I am saying is that men don’t appreciate that nurturing after the relationship has started and often take it for granted, and they forget, except on  Hallmark occasions (and often they even forget those), to make any effort at all.

        2. Chance

          KE, kudos to you if you nurture  at all.   

           

          That immediately puts you at an advantage to the vast majority of millennial women.   I can’t speak for Gen-X or Baby Boomers, but I suspect this is the reason most of those MGTOWs are young.   A young woman can easily separate herself from the pack because her peers have set the bar so low.   A woman wouldn’t even have to do a fraction of the nurturing that a typical man does of the providing/protecting, and she could still be ahead of the pack.   It really is that easy.

        3. Karmic Equation

          Thanks, Chance.

          But I think men don’t appreciate the nurturing women DO do that’s “not obvious”.

          1) Laundry – my bf does sweaty work all day and he stays with me 4-5 days of the week. And only has 3 changes of work clothes. It took me a while to get him to bring over 2 changes of clothes. I was washing his work clothes every night he stayed with me for about 3 months before “I” took the initiative and grabbed two changes of clothes from his house to put in mine. So now I do his laundry every 3 days. Does he see this as nurturing? Probably not.

          2) Junk food and cereal at my house – I don’t eat junk food and I don’t eat cereal. But he’s a midnight snacker. Whenever I grocery shop, I make sure I restock the snacks he likes. Does he see this as nurturing? Probably not.

          3) Tums and Advil in my purse  – He suffers from heartburn and headaches more than I. I’ve taken to stocking Tums and Advil in my purse. Does he see this as nurturing? Probably not.

          4) We go places in my car instead of his. He has gas guzzling trucks that he use for business. So he gets to write off mileage, as well as the gas. But instead we put mileage on my car and I pay for the gas, which I can’t write off. He gets a benefit, but I don’t. Do I complain? No. Does he appreciate this? Not that I can tell.

          I’ve only cooked for him once. He probably saw that as nurturing, but I only did it once.

          So to him, I may not seem like a nurturing person. But I am.

          I’m sure other millenials and “smart, strong, successful women” DO nurture, but not in the traditional “cook for her man” way.

          Men just need to appreciate the nurturing that they DO do. But not expect the same kind of nurturing their moms did for them.

        4. Chance

          Hi KE, that is excellent that you do those things, and it should be recognized and appreciated.   The examples you provided are exactly the kinds of things I’m talking about. Millennial women often take pride in not doing those types of things.   No one has ever done laundry for me in my adult life.   Most guys do all of the driving, or at least the vast majority of it.   Same goes for the medicine.   Like I said, you don’t have to do very much to put yourself ahead of these women.

  14. 34
    KK

    Courting IS effective if a man is marriage minded. He might have to go through the process repeatedly to find the right woman for him. Doesn’t mean it isn’t effective. Same for women. We have to be willing to date, be courted, by many men before we find a fit.

     

    PUA’s are trying to get laid, not have meaningful relationships. So, they either end up in a FWB situation with a low quality woman or they have to lie about their intentions with the high quality women. No integrity in deception, intentionally hurting others just to get your jollies.

  15. 35
    McLovin

    “Now that you’ve been thoroughly debunked and eviscerated, you have two choices:”

     

    Lol. You’ve done nothing of the sort. All you’ve done, condensed into it’s shortest form, is release women from their gender role while strictly enforcing men’s gender role, and advising women to do the same. It’s what you do, ad nauseum.

     

    And, again as always, you dress it up under the guise of “effective,” thereby absolving women of any and all responsibility. It’s the same reason yourself and Obsidian can’t have a conversation, you simply refuse to engage the subject matter.

     

    Chivalry and courting were for women who were chaste and who followed a gender role. Now that they are not and do not, there is simply no reason to observe these archaic traditions. The fact that they refuse to pick a side, and instead cherry pick the good from both sides  is the central issue in the manosphere/gender war etc, and it’s a topic that you, again, refuse to broach at all.

     

    Other than that, I’m not really sure to engage someone who says, ‘the marriage rate is not in freefall,’ this is an objective fact that will not yield to your retort of ‘nuh uh.’

     

    There are other methods that are effective, and do not require me to prostrate myself repeatedly, at great cost to myself, for the approval of my supposed ‘equal,’ who expects me to call, plan and pay hahahaha. I’ve become an expert at one of these methods. The way that women are taught these days to be entitled monsters only makes it more effective. I can identify them easily.

     

    Thankfully, as I move into my later 30’s and my sex drive wanes, I only need to play out the seduction a couple of times a year, for a couple of months each. 2-3 months is the ideal length for these types of relationships. I bat about  .500 with these women, meaning I only have to engage 2 to get one relationship out of it.

     

    So, it works for me. I’m in a relationship 4-6 months per year.

    1. 35.2
      judy

      McLovin 35 – you might be in a relationship – but I betcha she isn’t.

      1. 35.2.1
        In Not Of

        I guess if being a serial monogamist is your goal….

      2. 35.2.2
        McLovin

        Judy,

         

        So much the better. She’ll have someone else to glom onto right away.

  16. 36
    judy

    Well said Evan.

    I hope that your beloved reader heard it this time.

    Yes I agree with Adrian – these comments do make us grow.   For what it’s worth, I recently met one of the most disagreeable persons ever who sent me the email from hell rejecting me (which was pretty weird, considering that he had invited me out and the date had not taken place!!).

    Coming from a place of dignity, I thought, the hell, he doesn’t have any manners – I won’t even bother to answer.

    Silence can be so eloquent too!

     

     

     

  17. 37
    Stillsingleat40

    I couldn’t agree with you more Evan. I would say that old fashioned courtship is a good start because it is easier to appreciate a man who does something to be appreciated for than a man who wants to be appreciated for doing nothing. I would also say that it is easier to understand the intentions of a man who courts in this way than a man who does not. At my age I have tried to be a bit more open minded as there are still some unmarried men in my age category who don’t have the best social skills and just don’t get it. However, I am not sure I want to keep going through that.

    I speak from the perspective of having been introduced to a friend of a friend recently on the basis of him wanting advice about living in a place I have lived before. After one coffee meeting that went on all day and one spa meeting (in a place where I am member and he asked to come along) which also went on all day (and involved no real discussion on the topic I was originally asked to help with) I was really confused what this guy wanted from me and I don’t really want someone taking up whole days if he isn’t interested in me.

    He was then desperate for me attend a talk he was doing as part of a work project last night which I went along to (purely to support him as I have zero interest in IT technobabble), and after lots of emails from him on the subject. I caught sight of him from a distance in the beginning as he was coming out of the talk before but the talk I was in he handed over to his intern to handle and I didn’t even see him when I came out as he wasn’t there. No call, no email, no explanation so I walked thirty minutes in the rain to listen to something I have no interest in. Needless to say I am not overly impressed and in future will only make time for men who make an effort to court as you say. If he isn’t making the effort to court me, I have to assume he isn’t really interested as was clearly the case here.

    I feel disappointed but as this friend of a friend didn’t actually follow dating protocol, I also accept I set myself up for the fall.

  18. 38
    D_M

    Karmic Equation,

    “Because frankly, after courting is over, and he’s your bf, most guys just sit back and absorb the nurturing, and rarely put in any effort that even comes close to his courting effort. Yes, I’m saying men get lazy after he gets the girl. And the girl ends up putting in most, if not all the effort, AFTER commitment.”

    Therein lies the problem with the courting game. It sets false expectations for a number of folks and leads us down the “you don’t do this or you don’t do that anymore” path. That’s why the win me over philosophy is so problematic.

    1. 38.1
      Karmic Equation

      Well, if a guy giving you compliments or trying to make you laugh is just a show, that’s sad.

      I’m not talking about dinner out or spectacular take-my-breath away date nights. (I never got any of those btw from current bf).

      But for example, he courted me by playing pool with me. He’s a 7, I’m a 4 skill level gap is huge. He’s an expert, I’m just an intermediate beginner. So when we used to shoot 8-ball, he would shoot his balls in rotation, e.g., 1-7, or 7-1, while I shot 8-ball the normal way. This put my odds of giving him a competitive game to 80/20 and my chance of beating him to 60/40. He doesn’t do that anymore. We play “regular” 8-ball and kicks my ass everytime.

      So tell me, was his  courting behavior really that tough to upkeep? C’mon.

      I guess you could say that what I miss is the consideration and the feeling that he was doing something for me just because he liked me. Cognitively, I know he likes me. But that little bit of extra consideration…that I really miss. I don’t hold it against him. But I miss it. You know?

      Men don’t need to keep putting in “take your breath away” effort after the relationship starts. But a little extra (just-because-I-like-you) effort, once in while goes a long way to making your girl happy. It doesn’t cost any money. Just a little bit of thought.

      1. 38.1.1
        D_M

        Karmic Equation,

        I think I get where you are coming from. I know it’s a fine line, but hopefully you tell him that those little things keep the nurturing side of you going. I don’t know, but maybe he might have transitioned to the “honey do list phase”. The phase where we do everything you ask and assume that it is enough.

  19. 39
    Rebecca

    Chivalry isn’t dead.   I only dated briefly between my grieving-psycho-divorcee period and my current boyfriend, so this is certainly small-sample data, but all but one of those men called, planned and paid.   My boyfriend holds the door for me simply because he wants to treat me well, and I say thank you because I want to be with a man who makes an effort to treat me well.   His kindness provokes me to be good to him in return, leaving both of us continuously looking for ways to charm and delight each other.   I’m pretty sure he’s not regretting the effort, expense or emotional risk of dating me.

    Is it fair?   Nope.   I feel for men who aren’t tall or wealthy and I feel for women who aren’t young or beautiful – oh, wait, that’s me!   I’m one of those hateful 5s who didn’t “settle” for another 5.   But I want to be with the smartest, sweetest, funniest, best-looking man who’ll have me, so I’m not going to renounce my good luck in the name of fairness.   And I sure as hell wouldn’t see it as a kindness to “settle” for a man could probably tell that I saw him as a charity case!

    Someone above commented that women will have to take men’s resentments more seriously or even more men will choose to drop out.   But what if women don’t mind that exodus?   Bitter and resentful is not what we’re looking for anyway.   My boyfriend’s marriage ended when his wife found someone she liked better, and that wound runs DEEP, so I would understand if he treated me with suspicion, but I’d also leave over it.   I’m not in a position to “fix” anyone’s past hurts and I don’t really want the responsibility – I’m busy enough working on me.

  20. 40
    Adrian

    Karmic Equation,

    Let’s confer for a moment. I was all poised to give Buck25 and all the others one last reply regarding looks being the most important quality women look for in a man but after re-reading the comments, your responses have thrown the proverbial: “monkey wrench into my plans”:-). I can tell that you don’t support their argument, though I can not tell if you do not agree with their views about looks or do you just not agree with their bitterness toward the advantages and selectivity of women in dating?

     

    They argue facial beauty and height are the most important things to women when they first meet a man, and women will not accept a date with “most” men if they do not possess both qualities or at least a high level of facial beauty. It seems you agree with this, as long as they acknowledge that after the initial attraction is accepted, most women then place more weight on his effort to court, and his effort to show his value as a long-term partner, and you say most men are paid double the effort of courting back from the woman after she becomes his girlfriend.

     

    In my opinion what they don’t understand is that looks vs effort (courting) depends on the Market Value of each person. Basically to a woman who is a 8, the looks of a man who is also a 8 or maybe even a 7 does little to impress her. So to her his effort to win her and display his long-term value as a life partner is more important. To a woman who is a 5, a man who is a 8 will have more sway, and he has to put in little effort.

    If the man who is a 8 has more going for him than just looks, then most likely he will just sleep with the woman who is a 5 but not commit to her. The man who is a 8 in looks but lacks in every other category (living in his parents basement, 5 different baby mothers, working as a bagger at a grocery story , etc…) then he would commit to a 5 because all he brings to the table is looks, so he gets a better deal out of their dating,   (I have personally seen this many times).

     

    So a man who is a 5 should either focus on only dating a 5 and below or at least not sulk that he has to put in double the effort to only get a shot with a 6 and maybe, just maybe a 7. Again I think it is a looks vs effort thing only in the context of how they each match up.

     

    Karmic Equation back to you, how does your hot or not-hot theory count for celebrities? I ask because I was looking in a magazine and saw a article about Hiedi Klum and it got me to thinking about why would a beautiful woman like her, Kendall Jenner, and so many more that I can’t count date ugly guys? In this case I don’t think either of our theories about attraction work. Because each of these women have money, and fame like the men whom they date.

     

    Anyway, I’m curious to see what you agree and disagree with about what I have stated, also I look forward to hearing your theories. Helen Fisher says that genes (physical beauty) are most important to women, than, wealth, so I can see a women with kids trading her looks for wealth and the support that comes with it, but why would a single women?   If this was true, then, the myth about just being rich getting you hot single women is false.   A single hot woman would rather exchange genes with a hot middle class man than with a average rich guy right?

    My final question: If these guys put aside their pride and dated a woman who was a 5 like them, do you think after some time and sex they would eventually start to feel some attraction toward these women?

    1. 40.1
      Karmic Equation

      Disclaimer: The following are my theories only 🙂

      “I ask because I was looking in a magazine and saw a article about Hiedi Klum and it got me to thinking about why would a beautiful woman like her, Kendall Jenner, and so many more that I can’t count date ugly guys?”

      I suspect most starlets are aware that the hottest male celebs get chased by and propositioned by women groupies everywhere he goes.

      So the hottest women know that if she dates the hottest guy she can, she’s signing up for a challenging relationship. Blake Shelton/Miranda Lambert; Ben Affleck/Jennifer Garner; Justin Timberlake/Jessica Biel (although I would say that with the exception of Jessica  Biel, the female in those relationships were not as hot as the men). — Because those women groupies will shamelessly and without conscience try to seduce her man away. And the men being men, have to have iron control to withstand that limitless cornucopia of temptation. And the men fail, time and again. I mean seriously, if Halle Berry’s (ex)husband(s) will cheat on her what chance do us mortal women have of keeping our guys faithful, right?

      And the female celebs know this. So many Female Celeb 10s will choose men in the 7 and lower rating in looks, but who may have something else like exceptional talent or sex appeal to make him sexy to her. Christie Brinkley/Billy Joel (talent); Angelina Jolie/Billie Bob Thornton (sex appeal/bad boy); Julia Roberts/Lyle Lovett (talent?); Heidi Klum/Seal (talent); Elin Nordegren/Tiger Woods (talent); Sandra Bullock/Jesse James (sex appeal/bad boy). So her being a 10 and him being 7 or lower in looks, gives her some sense of security, possibly. She gets to be the “gorgeous” one in the relationship without question.

      And, let’s face it. The hottest woman celeb will outrank the hottest guy celeb in hotness. So that means a 10 female celeb’s only pickings are always lower than hers in the SMV scale. So, couple that with the fact that hot celeb men face too much temptation and often fail to live up to their promises of monogamy, those female celebs would be wise to choose the LEAST objectively handsome man that she’s attracted to have a relationship with. And odds are that man will adore and value her more than the hottest guy ever could or would. (Of course there are exceptions, but they were from a different era: Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward for example).

      I agree with your theory “In my opinion what they don’t understand is that looks vs effort (courting) depends on the Market Value of each person.”  

      “Helen Fisher says that genes (physical beauty) are most important to women, than, wealth, so I can see a women with kids trading her looks for wealth and the support that comes with it, but why would a single women?   If this was true, then, the myth about just being rich getting you hot single women is false.   A single hot woman would rather exchange genes with a hot middle class man than with a average rich guy right?”

      Well, with the availability of contraception, that hot single woman can ALSO have her cake and eat it, too. Just like a guy. She bangs the pool boy when her rich hubby is at work. With no consequences unless caught.

      “If these guys put aside their pride and dated a woman who was a 5 like them, do you think after some time and sex they would eventually start to feel some attraction toward these women?”

      Within each rating, there is a continuum, imo. So a male 5 should try to date the hottest 5 he can, and hopefully, they work out. Looks get you in the door, it’s personality and character that keeps a man or woman coming back. So if you have a nice-guy-with-balls 5 dating a an-average-but-sane-and-nice-self-aware-girl 5, they could have a happy relationship. As long as both of them are satisficers, and not maximizers, it will work (and does work. Look around you when you’re shopping at the mall :))

      I’ve been in 3 LTRs that lasted more than 3 years and 2 STRs that lasted about year. And the reality is that after 4-6 months, that “passionate sex” just turns into “nice sex” or “ok, we both need to get off before we go to sleep sex” — so as long as your partner and you are willing to have quickies as well as longies, sex is a necessary COMPONENT of a good relationship but it’s not the BASIS of a good relationship, which comprises of compatibility and genuine liking and wanting to spend time with the other person that has nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with how you feel when you’re with them.

      In other words, you want to have a partner you enjoy having sex with. And a lot of times, once you genuinely LIKE someone and care for them, as long as they have the right equipment in approximately the right place and everything functions normally, how “hot” they are doesn’t even factor into the sex. What matters more is what your relationship is like when you’re NOT having sex.

    2. 40.2
      Christine

      I think Karmic might be right that those beautiful female celebrities might not want the hassle of dating men who every other woman will also seek out–even when those men are within their reach.   I read an interview with Sophia Vergara, who actually said that she initially did not want to date Joe Manganiello because she thought he was too good-looking for her!   She thought, every other woman would also want him (especially after Magic Mike’s release) and she didn’t feel like competing with them.   She actually said it seemed like “too much work”.   He had to do a lot to convince her to give him a chance. Maybe there can be such a thing as too good-looking!

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