[Video] Is Modern Chivalry Dead?

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This is part of a new video series that I shot with my friends at Three Day Rule, a national matchmaking service associated with Match.com. TDR sent a camera crew to my house to capture a dialogue between me and Kate Edwards.

For the next 9 weeks, I’ll be posting a new short video every Friday that should be a refreshing departure from the written blog posts I do on Mondays and Thursdays.

We kick things off with a video called “Is Modern Chivalry Dead?” Without giving anything away, Kate and I both agree that while it may be a little dormant with more passive men and aggressive women, many people still subscribe to the theory that men should court women.

In my opinion, men can complain all they want about how unfair it is that they’re supposed to call, plan and pay for the first few dates, but you’ll find few women who prefer passive men. Kate gives a simple explanation why in the video.

Thanks for watching and be sure and share both the video and your comments.

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Comments:

  1. 41
    Henriette

    Poor Evan.   Every time he dares post about chivalry, Red Pillers come out of the woodwork (or, rather, their moms’ basements) to lambaste him.   *sigh*

    1. 41.1
      AAORK

      Your comment reeks of condescension, ignorance and  bitterness. And it’s rather pathetic to preface with a disingenuous overture. I’m pretty sure Evan can manage fine  without your fake sympathies. #TotalFail

      1. 41.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        No, AAORK, she’s right, and I appreciate her speaking up on my behalf. It’s tiring getting yelled at by men who only sympathize with men and women who only sympathize with women. I sympathize with everyone – but that doesn’t mean that everyone is “right” in every instance.

    2. 41.2
      Henriette

      Of course Evan can manage ~ heck, do better than manage: thrive! ~ without my words.   But my sympathies and overture are quite genuine.   It must be tedious to battle the same 5 or 6 irate posters each time he writes about how men can date more effectively.

      1. 41.2.1
        Chance

        Hi Henriette.   I don’t agree with a lot of what these irate posters have to say, or at least, I definitely don’t agree with their approach.   However, it isn’t readily apparent that these posts were written for men (e.g., this post and the two other posts that I cited in a comment above).   In fact, two of these three posts dealing with courtship were clearly not written for men.   As a result, the tone of many of the male commenters is naturally going to be more irate in response to posts like these as opposed to a post that is clearly written in a way that shows the author is coming from a place of sincerely trying to help men.   Ain’t rocket surgery 😉

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          I will remind you that my blog is for women. The fact that men read it is incidental to its purpose.

        2. Chance

          Yes, we all know this, which proves my point.

    3. 41.3
      Buck25

      Henriette,

      Thank you for your utter condescending arrogance. However, I haven’t lived in my parents’ (or anyone else’s) basement (or house) since I was 16. That’s about 51 years worth of NOT being the “worthless loser” YOU only WISH every man who contradicts you and your “messiah” here was.   Thanks all the same for the gratuitous insult to every man who dares disagree with your personal POV.   Thanks also for tarring every male here who doesn’t toe the ” women good, men bad” line with the same broad brush. If you read the posts, there are quite a few contrasts between the comments of a number of the male posters here, myself included. You might have seen those, if you cared to actually read and think critically, rather than simply emote; but then, it’s easier to dismiss any man who dares complain of any female behavior as “MGTOW”, “Red Pill” and so on, and therefore irrelevant, than to take a long hard look at your own attitude and behavior, as seen by men…isn’t it? I’m not here to pick a fight, personally, but I will raise questions where I think those are appropriate.   Neither I nor any other man who posts here, is required to validate your personal attitude, or feminist agenda. We’re certainly entitled to question, and state our opinions, so long as we do it in a courteous manner. Your only response is a lame, nasty stereotype? Just who’s being ugly and without substance again?

  2. 42
    Henriette

    Gosh, @Buck.   I’m a Methodist so Evan Marc Katz is certainly not my messiah.

    And I don’t consider every man who contradicts him a “worthless loser” (your words, not mine).   For example @Adrian has at many times disagreed with or questioned EMK’s theories and yet everyone here seems to see him as a bright guy with valid concerns who makes thought-provoking points.

    However, those who come onto EMK’s website, spewing irate ramblings attacking him and his posts, ranting against “Western(ized) women” certainly do seem “lame and nasty.”     Their goal is clearly not to learn, or to add to the understanding between the sexes but rather to vent long-pent frustration.   So who is choosing to “simply emote,” again?

    1. 42.1
      Buck25

      Go back, read my posts, and tell me again where I was”Ranting against “Western(ized) women. I never said that, nor indeed anything close.   Also, find anything I said that suggested men NOT courting/being chivalrous. I   didn’t say that either.   My “crime” here, if there is one, is that, (1) I DID offer up some sympathy to Obsidian (his situation within his own ethnic community is a bit different ( and more difficult) than what most other American men deal worth) (2) I’ve had a less than positive experience, as an older man, with online dating, and said as much (that’s simply the ground truth of my own experience; I clearly labeled   it as such, and possibly not applicable to other age groups)(3) I admitted to “shit testing” some women, who lied (and lied rather extensively) in their profiles, even as those very profiles contained harsh denunciations of men for (surprise, surprise) LYING ONLINE-see just a tiny bit of hypocrisy in what they did?   I sure did! The concept   of “I can do it, but you better not!” doesn’t fly with me, no matter who’s saying it, male or female. Now, if you, Evan or anyone else, can’t see the distinction between that, ( combined with the rest of what I posted in this thread), and what Russell, Mclovin and Obsidian posted, you have a reading comprehension problem, (or like Evan did on another post of mine (something clearly labeled as Satire, for heaven’s sake!), you glommed on to one or two key “Buzzwords” that raised your ire, assumed what you wanted to, without reading the rest, and decided to attack). Then instead of argumentation, you offered up a lame stereotype. You’re smarter than that; but you just lazily tarred everyone with a broad brush, which seems to be common practice here. Oh well…some of you here can be more than a little overzealous, when it comes to “enemy identification”. I just wanted to clear that up.

  3. 43
    Karmic Equation

    In response to my post at 25.1.2, Christine wrote:

    “Either party can either choose to stay, or walk away, at any given time.   In my own relationship, I don’t really see my boyfriend as having “power” over me.”

    Your boyfriend has power over the relationship. While you can both walk away, if you want marriage, and he doesn’t propose, you can’t get married. Or you can propose, but if he doesn’t say yes, you can’t get married.

    So while both people in the relationship has “walk-away” power — and usually, it’s the woman who wants the deeper commitment — the man controls how deep it gets if the woman is unwilling to walk away when he doesn’t deepen it in a reasonable timeframe.

    And because of a woman’s unwillingness to walk away from a relationship where he’s giving “ambivalent” vibes about marriage–he doesn’t propose, but he says he’ll consider it “some day”; (generic) you and he have been living together for 5 years and he knows you want to get married, but still hasn’t proposed; yet he tells you every day he loves you and can see  spending the rest of his life with you (but still no proposal) — women are unwilling to walk away from this kind of ambivalence. And men know this. That’s why they play that card so often.

    That’s the relationship power that men have. Women can end a relationship, but she doesn’t have the power to deepen the commitment.

    1. 43.1
      Christine

      Thanks Karmic for the reply.   However, I have to ask, why would (or should) a woman want to deepen a commitment with a man who doesn’t want to do that with her?   If the man has that many doubts about marrying her (after a reasonable amount of time getting to know her), then I think she should also have doubts about marrying him too. Then at that point, the woman should walk away, to free herself up to find the man who’s more sure about her.   It’s too bad more people don’t exercise that “walk away” power more often, for whatever reason.

       

  4. 44
    Caroline

    Hello all.   I’ve never commented on this blog even though I’ve been reading it for years and have read one of Evan’s e-books.   I really have enjoyed and appreciated his advice and have grown from it.   I just wanted to ask Buck a question. I just got to wonder why you “invited” these women on a second date if they turned up obviously not being in the shape they declared in their profile?   Perhaps you thought you should “teach” them a lesson? I dated for years online and it was rare that a man who indicated he was athletic showed up that way! But I also met some very kind and sincere men who were just so insecure they misrepresented themselves online to get a date. But I certainly wasn’t so rude as to accept a second date to prove my dissatisfaction.   I’m sorry but it just makes me wonder about your motive.

     

    1. 44.1
      Buck25

      Caroline

      I grew up in a time and place where the values I was taught, were quite different from what is “accepted” today. Honor and integrity were not optional; they were expected.   There was no place for the wannabe, the phony, or the slacker.   I know it’s considered “obsolete” now, but in my day, most colleges and universities   (yes, not just the service academies)actually had an honor code, which usually went something like this: “I will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor will I tolerate those who do”. Note the last part; if you knew someone broke the code, and did not report it, you were as guilty as they were.   Those standards are NOT obsolete, nor are they “too strict”. I still believe in them.

      I’ve discovered it’s a different world today. Today, a lie, if it’s wrapped in something bright and shiny enough, is preferred to the humble unadorned truth. People prefer to lie about their insecurities, rather than accept the ones they can’t change, and fix the ones they can. Never mind the substance, it’s the image that sells! Even love, it seems, is reduced to consumerism and advertising (in fact, that is the premise that drives the whole idea of online dating; If you haven’t got the goods, then be the biggest and best fraud you can be (somebody might not notice!). I don’t suppose I should be surprised. Carefully crafted falsehood and fantasy is far sexier and more attractive than truth; at least, in the short run. That fact is the stock in trade of every one of those “players” some women are   drawn to, then complain about. The attitude will persist,   I suppose, until and unless the consequences of dishonesty outweigh any potential gain.  The first time I came to this blog, the first discussion I encountered was about lying in online dating; there was no debate about whether lying was OK; the only question was how much!   The excuses I hear, are “But I HAVE to! “(no, you don’t) and “But, everybody does it!” (uh, no, EVERYBODY doesn’t).

      What I thought I saw, with these women, was a “teachable moment” ; a chance to impart a lesson as to why lack of personal integrity is not something to be desired. Whether it worked, I couldn’t say, although I did notice that a couple of them took their demands for “a fit, active man”   and their comments about their “very active, fun lifestyle” out of their profiles, so perhaps they learned something about what they really wanted after all. This also had the added bonus of having these same women self-select themselves out of my life, without me having to say anything “rude” or “hurtful”, so maybe that’s something.   I did not say one negative word to any of those women when they couldn’t keep up; I didn’t have to.; I let them show themselves who they weren’t, wishful thinking notwithstanding. How you can call that “rude”, I have no idea. I really don’t care. Obviously, your standards are not my standards, and that’s fine. Anyway, it’s a moot point now.

  5. 45
    Caroline

    Buck,

    Thank you for the reply.   I found it rather interesting you went out of your way for as you call it a “teaching moment”.   I gather it may have given you a sense of power to “right the wrong” or conquer the “injustice” of it all?   I am also from the south and would have been in your search range online being 54.   But in our home we were taught “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.   We were also taught by example.   Our parents, teachers, elders all strived to empathize.    “Put ourselves in the other person’s shoes” so to speak.   I personally never felt any need to lie to that date I met by asking/accepting another date under the guise of a “teachable moment”.   Yes, it was enlightening to find that a self proclaimed traditional man would go out of his way to rudely prove his point by leading these women (plural?-really) on a military hike.   I never treated the man who stated he was 46 (used old pics) but showed up in his 60s. I didn’t feel the need to shame a man who showed up 35 lbs heavier   and who had to bring his special pillow to put in the small of his back while we ate dinner who proclaimed his active lifestyle online with pics of him waterskiing.   I’m sure an intelligent man as yourself realizes taking the high road instead would have proven to be just as effective.   Btw,   I also was much more successful dating organically as you have.   I think we are all so much more genuine and would most likely not impose such limits/laundry list of ideals   on others as is done in online dating. Online dating sets the dater up to do this just by their questionnaire. I dated men (oldest was 66) both online and offline. I found your remark about women setting their age limits to one year above their age rather odd. In my many years of dating, most men set their limits at 1-5 years under their age.i actually dated the 66 year old for awhile. Our first date was a tennis outing but I didn’t feel the need to make it an all out competition to show him a thing or two.   It was a date. To have fun and possibly connect with another human being. That’s what dating is all about.   Connecting. Not “teachable moments”.

  6. 46
    Buck25

    Caroline,

    You know, I don’t think I was ever able to get past the feeling I got from the online dating environment. It always felt cold, remote, impersonal, and more than a little calculating; a catalog shopping experience of sorts. Real life doesn’t feel that way; there’s some “being on one’s best behavior”   of course, (early stage dating always has a small element of artificiality about it); but overall, the experience is far more personal, authentic, and for lack of a better word, human.   I’ve never had that “on trial and presumed guilty” feeling with women I met in real life. I find it hard to be natural, “connect”, or feel empathy, when I feel like I’m the subject of an inquisition, and that’s how the majority of my online “dates” felt. When I go to dinner with a woman I meet in real life, I’m pretty sure we’re at least going to have an evening of pleasant conversation, instead of a game of “Gotcha!” I know at least something about her that’s real, as she does with me, and we’ve already interacted face-to-face. I can get more cues to who a woman is,from a two minute face-to-face conversation, than I could from 10 emails and an hour on the phone, much less an online profile. The problem is not men,   the problem is not women; the problem is the online medium itself, and its profound limitations. I think sooner or later, it tends to bring out the worst instincts in people; certainly, it did with me. I thought I’d better leave, before I started thinking that the women I meet in real life, might be like the ones I encountered online

    Incidentally and just for clarity, my daily walk is not a “military hike”. I live on a big lake that was once a river valley, so the surrounding roads are hilly. Military cadence (counted off silently) is just a natural (for me) way of maintaining a brisk walking pace; about 5 miles an hour. You speak as if I invited these women on some equivalent of the Bataan Death March, or invited someone to join me for PT at 0 dark-thirty. A reasonably fit man or woman of 75 can do that walk without any problem; I know, because I have several older neighbors in that age range who do it, regularly. The women in question were simply invited to join me on my daily walk (individually, not as a group, in case you thought that, too).   As I said, several of these women chose (for whatever reason), to accept; but in no way did I lie to them, deceive them, or promise anything, directly or by implication. I simply invited them to come along on my walk   I suppose you would also insist that the “do as I say, not as I do” attitude of these “ladies” was appropriate. Now yes, I took out a tiny fraction of my frustration with the online cesspool on them, but I’m equal opportunity; you would have been well within your rights to walk out on the guy who used those old picture, and in my book you should have. If everybody did that,   we’d soon clean up the mess, and drain the damn swamp.

    I make no judgment about where women set their age limits; that’s for each of them to decide, without regard to what anyone else thinks (specifically including myself). I merely recount what I have experienced, in my area. As for me, I’ve “dated” (if you can call meeting someone you encountered online a “date”) women within and without my target age range. I’ve dated women in their forties: some charming dates, but not realistic relationship prospects-different life stage, different goals, different almost everything. I’ve “dated” women older than me, several of them.   The oldest, as an example, was 72, looked more attractive than most in their early sixties and quite pleasant. Different lifestyle, different expectations, even different relationship goals (at least, I find the idea of a permanently asexual, “strictly companionship” LTR something I’m not ready for yet). It appears some women believe any man over 65 must be as sexually disinterested/nonfunctional as they say they are;   (before you ask, I didn’t bring up the subject; in each case, I was taken aback when the woman brought it up herself). I suppose you think it awful of me to consider that just plain weird.

    In any case, like I said, it doesn’t matter, I’m with someone, and however that does, or doesn’t, work out, I’m leaving the dating market, permanently. In case you were wondering, I’ve been ill, so I’m whiling away time here while I recover.

    Thanks for the lecture.

     

    1. 46.1
      Nissa

      I was curious. I Googled. Also, phrasing is important. I consider ‘a walk’ a stroll where we observe stuff and can speak without puffing. A ‘brisk walk’ is one where we are on a mission to burn calories, no talking necessary.

      Here are the results of a study done by the Road Engineering Journal to help determine the timing of crosswalk signals.   Pedestrian Walking Speeds

      Of the 7,123 pedestrians observed, 3,665 were 65 or older. Some of the findings were:

      * The average walking speed for older pedestrians was 4.11 feet per second, compared with 4.95 for younger pedestrians. (that’s 2.8 miles per hour for older pedestrians and 3.4 miles per hour for younger pedestrians).

      1. 46.1.1
        Buck25

        Just to be clear, I never called it “a stroll”; it’s not, its a brisk walk (though I can comfortably carrying on a normal conversation while doing it). I get most of the benefits of jogging/running, without the wear and tear on my joints. Is it a fast walking pace, at almost twice the average for people over 65 in the study you cite? Yes. Then again, this is a sedentary nation, where obesity and lack of exercise is rampant, so I’d expect the “average” pedestrian to walk slower.

  7. 47
    Caroline

    Buck,

    First, I hope you are recuperating well.

    I however was disappointed with how you seemingly, in my opinion, skirted the issue of motive for asking those women on your “walk”. IMO, an appropriate answer would have been “because I wanted to get to know them better”. Not, uh I don’t know why they accepted the invitation?! So, I’m wondering why a seemingly intelligent man would go out of his way to an invite a woman (who showed up overweight or not) to walk where he silently counts to keep up his pace. I read online that a brisk walk is 3-4 miles per hour. It also said that once you get over 4 miles per hour there’s a question as to whether one should walk or jog. I seriously doubt those women realized this was at as fast a clip as they thought. Now, don’t get me wrong, I never condoned them for lying in their profile. As you put it, “you must insist it was appropriate for these ladies to do as I say not as I do”-or something to that effect.   To clarify, I inferred that it may be best to courteously just move on. What you experienced in online dating is pretty universal-yes people lie. But is teaching the “cesspool” a lesson really a good idea? Btw-if a woman on here claimed all guys online were scum and losers, would you think that a bit over reacting? Because you dated online, are you then scum and a loser?   I dated online, I am not in the cesspool of humanity. I by far met mostly sincere, good guys; I just didn’t find one for me. Although I did date a guy from online for 8 months (he had a “ghosting” habit). Funny, we get together around the holidays for a drink to catch up though. We’ve remained friends. I didn’t have to teach him a lesson to quit his disappearing act, I moved on. I was able to keep my attitude about both myself and the opposite sex high because I realized what he did was more about him than me and that I had no idea what he was going through to act so rudely to me.   I retained my self esteem and sanity   while being available at my very best for the next man. Not stewing in indignation and anger.

     

    1. 47.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Well written, Caroline. Agree with every word, but stopped posting because it seemed futile.

    2. 47.2
      Buck25

      Caroline,

      Thanks for the well wishes; I’ll be fine in a couple of weeks.

      Out of curiosity, how long had you been single before you tried online dating? I gather from an earlier post that you tried the online thing for several years. I ask because I went into that after the end of a 16 year marriage (and I’d been essentially out of the dating market for three years before that, so almost a 20 year hiatus). I wonder now, whether a year or two of conventional dating before ever trying the online approach would have put me in a better position to handle the online experience. Do you think your previous conventional dating experience, helped you deal with the online challenges better than if that had been your first experience in a long time?

      1. 47.2.1
        Caroline

        Glad to hear you’re on the mend Buck.

        I jumped into online dating quickly upon my divorce and jumped right back out realizing I just wasn’t ready emotionally to date.   It was a big transition after 23 years of marriage with the full responsibility of my two sons squarely in my lap. I actually started with online first realizing the only way to maintain my sanity was to take breaks from it as needed. As my social life and career started to fall into place, I began dating more organically as I met more people socializing, tennis league and various enrichment classes. I probably became more successful dating wise as I gained more alternatives in how I met people. I’ve been dating my guy now for almost 5 years ( we didn’t become exclusive until year 3). I guess what I’m trying to say is it was better when all my eggs weren’t in one basket and my life was socially fulfilling enough to be happy without a romantic relationship but still desiring one.

  8. 48
    Buck25

    Caroline,

    Thanks. I’ve since thought, in hindsight, that I would have been better off gradually easing back into conventional dating as my life rebuild slowly expanded. As it was, so I jumped into the online fray.. It was a trial and error process I knew my age would likely be a limiting factor (though I had no idea how much), so I felt some need to move fast, and online seemed the most likely way to do that. Of course, it was a trial and error process (most of the advice available to men, is more aimed at the 20-40 age group)in the beginning, but I tried to glean whatever information I could, and with the help of a woman friend, scoped out the competition. At first, this looked promising; (I was amazed how many well-educateed professionals can’t write well at all) . Writing a profile and emails that would stand out actually didn’t look so daunting. What was a lot less evident, was just how age driven the searching is; much easier to see on Match, for example, than some other sites. The other thing was that women50-65 seemed to be as visually driven as I remembered from my thirties and forties, perhaps even more so (probably the medium exaggerated the apparent effect); that was a bit of a surprise to me. Anyway, the result was, that I drew interest from everywhere BUT my target range. Most interest came from women older than me (late sixties, seventies) and much younger (forties). The cold, impersonal, catalog shopping nature of the beast quickly became apparent, along with the pervasiveness of deception ( I would have expected more authenticity, if only out of self-interest. On top of that, there was essentially no feedback so now way to tell why anything was happening the way it was, so it was a constant process of invention and re-invention. I think, if I were twenty years younger, I might have simply enjoyed the challenge; but then I noticed that each time my birthday came, the profile views dropped precipitously in both numbers and quality. the situation deteriorated fast. After I hit 66, I found myself largely invisible. Fortunately, by that time, my expectations for any meetings I did get had become practically non-existent; I had learned not to build up any expectations for women I know next to nothing about. The only good news was that in the real world, things were improving as my circle of friends expanded, and that was providing a lively, if very casual social life that was far more pleasant than the awkward, stilted, often inquisitorial meetings from online encounters. I’m sure it was an illusion, but it felt as if women online were hellbent on making sure I knew I was, above all else, just plain OLD, in the most negative way. I don’t think it would have felt quite that way, were I your age, but obviously I’m not. For me, I have to rate the experience as a complete waste of time, that ultimately was poisoning my beliefs about women; that bit of self-knowledge told me it was time to strike the tent and move on   so that’s what I did. The irony is, that both the quality and quantity of women (in my desired age range) I eventually began to meet in real life were dramatically better, than I found online; still don’t know whether it was the age thing or whether some personalities (like mine?) simply don’t project well/accurately under online conditions.   Given some communications SNAFU’s here, I suspect both. I know I irritate Evan here, when I say online “dating” doesn’t work for everybody, (I think he sincerely believes it does), but what am I to make of my experience? Pretend it didn’t happen? Pretend I was trying to date women half my age, when I wasn’t?   Pretend I was only willing to meet the best looking women within my age group, when that’s not the case? Pretend I wasn’t willing to date down as far as I could humanly stand? Sometimes, whether anyone likes it or not, truth is truth.

    1. 48.1
      Christine

      Buck, I’m in a different demographic than you (a 36 year old woman) but I really do understand what you’re saying about online dating being so age-driven!   I can’t call online dating a complete waste of time, because I did eventually meet my boyfriend online (when I was 35 and he was 41).   However, it was sure a long and painful road to get there!   I experienced something similar to what you did, being largely invisible to my peers and mostly being contacted by people way younger or older than me.   I wondered, was it really too much to want someone reasonably close to my age, who I could relate to?   Before online dating, I never thought that a woman in her 30s was too “old” for men her own age, or in his 40s.   I found out the hard way that I apparently am, for most of them.

      I’m really lucky that I somehow, miraculously, found an exception in my boyfriend–someone within a reasonable age difference, who didn’t mind my age.   But boy, it did feel a bit like I grabbed the last train out of the station!   If things don’t work out, I really don’t know if I could take the online dating jungle again.

  9. 49
    Sally

    Osidian says “No, every woman isn’t — but DNA evidence tells us, that down through human history, 80% of all women who ever lived was able to pass their genes on into the future, while only 40% of men did. That’s due to a number of factors, but one of them was the fact that far fewer men were deemed attractive.”

    I suggest you head to the library and do some reading in the areas of anthropology and history. The reason most women passed their genes on and most men did not is that the strongest most dominant men in the tribe monopolized the women. How was that women’s fault? Please remember that these were primitive male dominated societies. What power did women have, even to say no to sex? Men were stronger. Yes it’s a sad and uncomfortable discussion for those who study human history but the reality nonetheless.

    The advent of legalized marriage evened things out. The normalization of monogamy and prohibition of sex outside committed relationships allowed all men the chance to find a mate and father children.

    It also allowed women more power to choose to mate with a man or not.  Our modern courtship behaviors are rooted in this custom, where men display their fitness as a LT partners   for women in very physical public displays. From gladiators to bull running to modern organized sports, this cultural trend seems imprinted on us.

    Women chose strong partners, and vice versa, because it gave their offspring the best chance for survival in harsh conditions. Understand this. It was not a matter of women feeling entitled to be picky, it was a survival mechanism and the reason humans persevered and that you and I are here today to have this discussion.

    Once land ownership and complex economic systems became the norm, a woman’s parents became the primary relationship/marriage gatekeepers in order to use marriage to advance the families finances and position in society. Then men began competing for women or more accurately competing for approval of her parents based on their assets and ability to make a good living. Once again this trend remains in current courtship, where men are expected to pay for dates and display their ability to provide.

    What is the point in all of this? It’s that by and large women didn’t make or enforce these rules you hate so much. The men who have run virtually every society since the dawn of time did. I’m all for times changing and for the record, I don’t feel entitled to have men spend tons of money on me. However before  you chalk up modern dating dynamics to women’s arbitrary pickiness and angry feminists, you might want to do some historical research.

    Before you attack me asking for sources, there are thousands in any library and they’re free. My argument here was based on years of study and a degree in anthropology.

    1. 49.1
      Sally

      Obsidian,

      I didn’t say women were not choosier than men, but saying that the females of most species are choosier does not equal female domination of social dynamics among humans, because it ignores the development of complex social structures in which norms were imposed on mating that are not biologically advantageous per se but socially advantageous, such as marriage. There is a difference between biological motives and social motives.

      Women are choosier because women get pregnant and must raise the children. Being pregnant means you are out of commission so to speak for 9 months and women only have so many opportunities in a lifetime to bear children. So all it means is that casual sex was a bigger gamble for women and finding a suitable mate is and was a priority over satisfying sexual urges with the first available man.

      I know it’s a common belief among many men that marriage was created to serve women’s interests. It wasn’t. It was created to legitimize children and thus heirs and to stabilize society around family units. The point is that as much as you would like to believe these social structures are proof of women’s dominance in society throughout history, they are not.

      Besides if socialization doesn’t trump biology, then women can’t help being attracted to the best men available can we? Why get angry if you believe its inherent and out of our control?

      On another note marriage was invented long before the 1920s so I’m not sure why you chose to randomly bring that into the conversation.

      My last point, your snarkiness doesn’t make you seem smarter, it just makes you seem like a jerk.

      Oh yes and “sources please?” I don’t have time to create a literature review for you on hundreds of years of history, biology, and sociological research and theory, but if I did I can guarantee Wikipedia wouldn’t be on the list.

       

       

  10. 50
    Rachel

    I showed appreciation and still got burned!   After many e-mail exchanges, “Doug” finally asked me out for dinner on Saturday.   Unfortunately it was the only day I was not available.   My response was, “I would love to continue our conversation in person!   Unfortunately, Saturday is the only day that doesn’t work for me.   Would you be available another day so we could have dinner?”   His response was, “Rain check on the dinner. Awesome. People get scared off when I ask. I can understand.”   Then gave me his personal e-mail and phone number and told me to call anytime.   WTF!?   Wow!   I have your online program and started following you before joining match.com, Evan.   Thought I had a good one for a moment.   But this is ridiculous – like trying to find a needle in a haystack!

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