I Want My Date to Pick Me Up. Does That Make Me a Princess?

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First, let me say that you have changed the way I view men and dating! I can honestly say that I’m having fun dating and have a newfound confidence in myself. But I’m not sure what to do about Chris, a nice guy I met on Match.com. He’s gone out of his way to make me laugh, he follows up via text after a date, and he’s smart, secure, and successful. We’ve been seeing each other a month and will soon have our fourth date. He’s a man with a plan, which I like.

Following your advice, I try to go with the flow and emanate receptive female energy. I like being the catch. However, Chris just texted me that I should meet him at his favorite restaurant for our next date, in his area of town, nearly a half hour drive away. I love the idea of mulligans and looking past our checklists, which I got from “Why He Disappeared” and your newest book, “Believe in Love”. This was a new concept for me. I looked past the sporty jersey Chris favors (I’ve always expected men to dress up for me), but I’m old-fashioned and want to be courted. I want to be picked up, not drive to a part of town I don’t know to meet a man. Yet I’m afraid of coming off as a princess. I’m torn. I like this guy but don’t want to ruin things by insisting he pick me up, yet I don’t want to drive to meet him either. I don’t want to overthink or overanalyze like I used to before I found your advice, yet I can’t seem to shake this one or figure out the best next move. Any thoughts?

Kate

Brian is tall, cute, sane, stable, and relationship-oriented. Even though he’s relationship-oriented, he’s still a man. In other words, he is driven by attraction, likes sex, and tends to move faster because of this. On the third date, he expects you to sleep with him, because that’s what everybody else does and if you were really attracted to him, you would, too. When you refuse, because even though you are attracted to him, you don’t like sleeping with guys who are still active online, Brian tries to negotiate for sex. Eventually he gives up. He says good night. He never calls you again.

Is Brian “wrong”? Well, not in his version of the story. In his version, you seemed really into him, you fooled around a bit, but you were ultimately a tease who had major issues around sex.

In your version, Brian was the guy who didn’t respect your boundaries, who felt entitled to getting his way, even when it didn’t feel comfortable to you. His inability to understand and respect your very valid needs is the reason you’re not seeing him any longer.

Brian acted like a petulant child who didn’t get his way. Don’t be like Brian.

In this hypothetical situation, I’m much more sympathetic to you than I am to Brian. Brian had a vision of how things were “supposed to go” on the third date and when they didn’t go that way, instead of going with the flow, he decided to put bail, and make up some story about how you were a tease to justify his behavior. In fact, Brian acted like a petulant child who didn’t get his way.

Don’t be like Brian.

By the time this blog post comes out, this situation will have already resolved itself. You will have either decided to go with the flow, because it’s no big deal that he asked you to meet him out for your fourth date, or you will have pulled the princess act and decided that this was a dealbreaker.

The major problem most people have in dating — as we can see — is that they have a script in their head about how things are “supposed” to go, and when it doesn’t go according to this script, it becomes problematic. But really, that’s just a form of selfishness, or narcissism or social autism — as if every one in the world has to do things your way or they’re “wrong.”

Men would much rather be appreciated than taken for granted. You’re a modern woman, not a princess.

In successful relationships, 95% of things are no big deal and you let them go, so that when you do speak up on the 5%, he pays attention. Which is why — if he’s a great guy, nagging him about his jersey is pointless. This 4th date chivalry thing is in the same category. If Chris has done everything right for three dates — calling, planning, driving, paying – this is exactly when you should be OFFERING to pick up the check or cook him dinner.

If that’s hard to fathom when I talk so much about feminine energy, it’s really quite simple. Men would much rather be appreciated than taken for granted. You’re a modern woman, not a princess. He’s a man, not a manservant and not an ATM. So really, help a guy out, will ya?

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Comments:

  1. 21
    Katie

    Okay surely it should be working both ways, but I would do this (go to his area by myself) if it’s saturday morning activity, a brunch, anything that ends before 7pm. I did live in a dangerous neighbourhood and i am precautious now and ever even if it would be the safest area in the world.  

  2. 22
    morgan

    This is an interesting one to respond to because Kate describes herself as “old fashioned” and I’m definitely not that. I’m big on equality – each party in a relationship contributes equally.   I also know that different people have different means of contributing, some of which is based on their gender.
    The traditional (heterosexual) concept of courting is very one way effort-wise.   The man does lots to prove his worth and the woman accepts or rejects, with the assumption that she has inherent worth without effort.   It seems out of wack to me.   It also seems like it sets up expectations of a relationship where the man is expected to do all/most of the heavy lifting and all the woman needs to do is be herself.  
    Both parties in a relationship, male or female, have inherent value.   And both should be putting in effort to build and maintain the bond.   Sure this effort may manifest differently but my question to Kate is….
    What are you DOING to win Chris over?
    and p.s. just consider the idea that maybe he doesn’t like your dress sense either
      
      

  3. 23
    Karl S

    One other thing to consider is that he may have deliberately asked her to make her own way there because, being the 4th date and on his side of town, he intended make an offer after dinner to invite her back to his place for sex.

    If I were in his shoes, I’d find a “no” answer much easier to deal with knowing we could say goodnight at the restaurant and let her drive back to hers while I just mozy on home.

    1. 23.1
      JB

      Exactly Karl, we all like to open the season(first time sex with someone) with the “home bed” advantage. There’s too many things that can go wrong on “the road”(at her house). Just sayin’………..

      1. 23.1.1
        twinkle

        @JB: “Home bed advantage”–omg that’s hilarious. We women sometimes don’t see the efforts that men make to seduce us properly, lol. It’s oddly touching when we find out.

    2. 23.2
      Sunflower

      LOL…..I think someone just hit the nail on the head.

    3. 23.3
      Fleur D.

      Maybe he’s not being SO  hot-bloodedly calculated, but asking her to drive 30 minutes for a date (where she likely will be drinking) could beg the question of where she’s going to stay.   My first thought when reading the question was not “why isn’t he picking me up?” but “is it going to be sensible for me to drive home/am I going to stay at his place and what’s going to happen if I do?”    The answer (as usual) comes down to knowing yourself, generally trusting in a guy’s better nature, and being comfortable expressing yourself without drama.   It’s fun to mix it up: driving 30 minutes for a nice date with a guy you like in a new neighborhood, having two glasses of wine over a 3 hour dinner and then driving home is not a big deal.

      1. 23.3.1
        Karl S

        I’m more thinking along the lines of Karmic Equation, where having the car on hand gives her greater power to choose to stay or to leave at any time because the easy exit is right there on hand. Of course, if she drinks more than the limit, that makes things more complicated.

  4. 24
    SeaChangeSeeChange

    Honestly, it sounds to me like Kate doesn’t quite understand why making a compromise in this scenario is better than toeing the hard line. Either that, or she isn’t truly interested in Chris for who he is as a person and doesn’t see the value in giving her time and effort to him in return for all his [showing up and looking pretty is not a fair trade, despite what many appear to think].

    Chris has been consistently making the effort despite the very same distance that gives  her  pause; why should he be the only one putting forth the actual effort? Sure sure, I know it’s “early” in their dating relationship but after three weeks and three dates, it’s perfectly understandable  — and a positive sign! —    for him to want to (1) show her where he lives, (2) share with her his favorite restaurant, and (3) expect that she begin acting like a partner by sharing the burden of driving.  
    Granted, there’s a lot we don’t know here but it sounds to me like she really doesn’t understand (at this point) the balance required for a healthy dating relationship — maybe she hasn’t sussed that out from the books yet.  Sometimes the focus seems to land on “he’s doing everything right so it must mean he’s a good match for me” rather than evaluation of their compatibility.  

    As with anything, it’s all a learning process but it just sounds to me like Kate is choosing the wrong battle to fight. I’d love to see her express her concerns to him about not knowing the area, etc, and then see what happens from there (and maybe even try to find the compromise!). This would tell her FAR more about Chris as a person than him simply showing up because she demanded it.

    Chances are that if he’s TRULY interested in her and values her the way he should if considering a LTR, he’ll do the driving and show her around so that she can feel safer next time.

  5. 25
    Karmic Equation

    I don’t get the big deal about driving to meet someone.
      
    I myself prefer to drive to new-places-to-me for first dates. Or if the guy doesn’t mind driving, driving to meet him some place closer to me than to him. What I don’t want is some almost-stranger picking me up at my place. I would even say that until after I’ve slept with him at his place, he doesn’t get to sleep with me at mine.   
      
    Think about it, if you’re driving your own car, you can opt out of the date at any time if you’ve driven to meet him. If the date goes well, you can feel a little naughty by giving him an unforgettable good night kiss or light make out “in the open” and then ride off into the sunset, so to speak 🙂 That PG exhibitionism is something guys seem to enjoy. Makes them feel naughty too. And the fact that you can kiss him and leave him without looking back leaves him wanting more.
      
    If you decide you need more privacy, you can always follow him to his place, and then leave anytime you feel like it, with an excuse “I have to get to work/have to be somewhere early in the morning”. Whereas if he goes to your place, and HE leaves when HE feels like it, then you might feel “abandoned” if you don’t want him to go yet and/or you have to find a nice way to get him out of your place when you’re ready for bed, but don’t want to share it. I like “abandoning” the guy after making out with him at his place…Because, frankly, if you leave without sleeping with him or when he’s sleeping, he’s not used to it. I do this even with bfs sometimes. Keeps things interesting 🙂 Men are used to women wanting stay to over and wake up cuddling in the morning. When you leave in the middle of the night, they feel a little odd. It’s not a bad thing to keep a guy a little on edge like that.
      
    Women need to embrace her independence to come and go whenever she pleases and not be at the mercy of a man to come and go, especially during the dating phase. I feel having a guy pick you up for dates should happen once you have some sort of relationship going, e.g., 6 or more dates.
      
    However chivalrous being picked up may feel to you, the reality is you’re at his mercy for the duration of your date. I don’t want any man I’m dating to know where I live until I’ve determined I think he’s the kind of guy I’d like to have as my friend. A lot of first, 2nd, third dates don’t pan out into relationships. I’d rather those guys never know where I lived. Better safe than sorry. There’s plenty of time for him to be chivalrous once you’re friends.

  6. 26
    LC

    If she doesn’t want to sleep with him, inviting him over for dinner sends the wrong message.   I’d drive to the restaurant and meet him, but I wouldn’t go home with him this night just in case he’s decided that he’s going to pump and dump me for not sleeping with him yet.   Plus, any time I’ve ever reciprocated by cooking for a man or picking up the tab so early in the relationship, I have gotten dumped.

  7. 27
    goldstreet

    Ladies Ladies Ladies-   Up your standards and don’t be fooled.   During courtship, the man comes to the woman.   The man must be willing to do what makes her comfortable.   The man must be willing to go out of his way and come to HER.   Does the egg go to the sperm? I think not.   Any man who does not want to pick you up for a date—for each and every date— is either too comfortable/confident, not trying to impress, or not invested.   BOY BYE.   Do you want your marriage to be like that?   Do you want your future husband to put his needs before your own?   If you ask “am I being a princess for wanting him to come to me?”   Well turn it around ask yourself- is he being a princess for asking you to come to him?   Between the two- who really should be a princess?   Not a man! Fllow your gut instincts and female nature, miss.   You know you want to be treated like a princess, so go ahead and enjoy a man that loves to give.

    This is very typical American guy behavior- want women delivered to them like pizza.   Men from other countries (I have lived abroad) do not do this. They wouldn’t dare ask a woman to come to them. I have had men drive back and forth to come see me and drop me off, take long train rides across town, heck even borrow friend’s cars to pick me up.   You only have to require it, and they WILL do it if they really like you!   I have had men tell me that its refreshing that I ask them to.   It is FEMININE behavior to let the man lead and take care of you and the details while you show up, ready to act like a lady, look good, dress well, and be pleasant company.   You will enjoy it, appreciate it, and the ying and yang works better this way.   That is all.

      

    1. 27.1
      Noemi

      I’m Romania. As such, I often meet many other Romanians, especially those who are new to America. Yes, they’ll come to you. They’ll take care of you. They will be the man in the relationship. But you better cook and clean for them, and care for their children that you bear. You can’t have your cake and eat it, dear. Relationships are all about give and take. It’s up to you what you choose to give and to take.  

    2. 27.2
      AllHeart81

      I got a good laugh out of , “Does the egg go to the sperm…” Lol. 🙂 Good one.

      Do I want a man who puts his needs before my own? No. Do I want a man that supplements to every little need I have and have no expectations for me to be giving in the relationship in turn? I don’t want that either. I have relationships not just so I can see what I get, but so I can expand what I give. And while I very much like to be the receptive energy, I still want to be able to do things for him in return. This seems like a small thing to do for a man in return.

  8. 28
    Karl S

    <i>This is very typical American guy behavior- want women delivered to them like pizza.   Men from other countries (I have lived abroad) do not do this. They wouldn’t dare ask a woman to come to them.</i>

    You’re welcome to limit your dating pool, if you so choose, to men from other countries. Good luck if you happen to live in America though.

    1. 28.1
      JB

      You’re right Karl. I’ll take my beautiful down to earth compromising woman I’m falling in love with any day over any of this high maintenance game playing bullsh*t. My girl took her profile down yesterday and we’re now exclusive. We’ll take turns driving to see each other just as we have or god forbid we might actually use communication and common sense and let it depend on what we plan on doing and where it is…..lol

  9. 29
    Henriette

    “You know you want to be treated like a princess…”   Well, I prefer to be treated like a woman, not a princess.   It sounds as though this guy has been making a consistent effort with her and now it’s her turn to make a bit more of an effort.   Keep observing how he behaves in the weeks & months to come.   It he begins to make less and less effort with her, THEN it is time for her to cut her losses.   For now, his request seems perfectly reasonable.  
      
    “Go ahead and enjoy a man that loves to give!”   Men have to be careful they don’t fall for women who “love to take!”   Evan is right; this is a lovely opportunity for Kate to show that she has no interest in being a petulant child who expects the man to wait on her hand and foot.  
      
    “This is very typical American guy behavior…”   Haha.   Lots of men come to this site recommending overseas brides in place of entitled, selfish American women.   They are not warmly received.   I do not appreciate American male-bashing, either, especially when the guy in Kate’s post sounds like a genuinely attentive, thoughtful fellow.   If you prefer overseas men, please date them but refrain from disparaging good local men.
      

  10. 30
    AAORK

    I’ll sum this up with the simplest explanation possible: she’s acting this way because he’s not HOT enough (the definition of which is purely defined by her). It’s really as simple as that. In other words, if this guy was in the top 5-10% tier (the ones all women trip over each other to be noticed by) she would do whatever was needed to see him again. Because he is not top-tier, she’s just “shit testing” him to discover his boundaries while loading up on potential excuses for rejecting him. In the end, guys like Evan are the only real winners because women like this eventually end up in the client pool of lonely, frustrated and somewhat bitter 30/40/50-somethings carrying the “Man Up!” banner while wondering “Where are all the good men?”. You’re welcome.   

    1. 30.1
      Karmic Equation

      Most men aren’t hot enough, AAORK. lol — So that just makes this man the average man most women date.
        
      I’m not sure if she’s shit-testing him, but she is under “old-school delusions”, IMO. Picking up women for dates are great when you’re in high school, when typically the boy has a car, but not the girl, it made sense. But in this new world of online dating, where where both adults have cars and might live “far” from each other, it really should not be a big deal. Both parties need to make the effort to meet for the date. Make sure it’s something interesting and worth traveling to. If it’s just drinks or dinner, meet half-way.
        
      If being picked up means that much to the OP, she needs to date people within 15 minutes of her.

      1. 30.1.1
        AAORK

        Oh she is definitely shit-testing him; its what women do, and that’s OK. What’s not ok is when she and other women deny it for what it is, or worse,  wield it as weapon instead of a shield. This will run it’s course and like many other women like her, she’ll  eventually become a client of  Evan’s (unless she already is) or some other ‘Dating  Advisor’ and .. the cycle continues ..    

        1. Karmic Equation

          You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to 🙂
            
          Shit-testing isn’t this. This is being a diva at worst. Misguided at best on what types of “effort” she should evaluate in men. She’s putting the emphasis on the wrong kind of effort.
            
          But we do agree that if she retains misguided expectations like this, she will not ever find love. In this world of online dating, the divas get chucked unless she’s hot. Then she gets chucked after she’s been pumped.
            
          She’s probably afraid that’s what’s going to happen: she makes the effort. He woos her to bed. Then he never calls again. And her take on this will be “I tried to make an effort for him and he dumped me anyway; so I”m never going to make the effort again.”
            
          That would be solving the wrong problem. The problem wasn’t her effort, the problem was her diva-ish attitude. Get rid of the diva attitude and she’ll have a better chance with the next guy.

    2. 30.2
      JB

      You are correct he probably isn’t “hot” enough, tall enough, rich enough, or  high status in general ie: education, job title, income etc…. enough or she would do whatever it takes to keep him interested just like those wonderful gals on The Bachelor who can’t “demand” anything because they will be eliminated by the high value male with many options that they see right in front of them.

    3. 30.3
      Henriette

      Funny how differently we can perceive things, AAORK & JB.   As a woman, I generally assume that a hot, successful, charming man has many options and knows how to treat a lady well.   So, if he acts in an inconsiderate manner, I figure that he’s not terribly interested in me and I pull back/ start to lose interest.   However, when a more “normal” guy is inconsiderate, I tend to cut him some slack because I figure he might not be “smooth” enough to know how to properly court a woman and I imagine he doesn’t have 20 other women waiting in line for him so why would he purposely blow his chances with me.   HAhaha.   I know – it’s messed up (although, no more/ less messed up that your fictional women who will bend over backwards for the Hot guy).     As a result, I’ve probably blown off many more hot guys and accepted crap from many more   “regular” guys than I should have.   Most of my friends are the same (wary and quick to cut losses with rich popular men and patient with geeks).   And no, none of us is ugly, obese or desperate 🙂
        
      So, while there are ~ no doubt ~ women who will do anything for a date with a hot guy, I suspect this is less common than you imagine.   Other ladies reading this… what do you think?!?
        
      And, oh, just for the record, I don’t think the guy mentioned in the OP’s letter is inconsiderate for asking her to drive on the 4th date.  

      1. 30.3.1
        JD in LA

        No use to waste time, efforts, and emotional energy on the hot guys when they show you that they are not that interested in you.

        I am not sure though how many women have that level of self-awareness.  

          

      2. 30.3.2
        JB

        “although, no more/ less messed up that your fictional women who will bend over backwards for the Hot guy”
        The women on every season of The Bachelor are not “fictional”. They’re all too real and sad. They cry after being dumped by a guy who some of them have never even gone with.

        1. Henriette

          @JB – I’m afraid I shouldn’t have used the word, “fictional.”   As I mentioned in my post, I do think there are women of the ilk you & AAORK describe, who’ll do anything for a hot guy who isn’t making an effort for her.   (I used “fictional” but should have used a word more along the lines of “hypothetical” … these women exist but we’re not talking about any specific women that we know).   I just don’t think they represent the majority of women, especially not attractive women with healthy self-esteem.
            
          Also, while I agree that some of women accept shoddy treatment from hot guys in “real life,” I hope you realise that “reality” television has little to do with real life.   You do know that the Bachelor ~ and similar programming ~ is heavily scripted, right?   And that producers talk to the women off-camera to whip them into emotional frenzies, etc.     And that they select women who will help them create entertaining tv (hint: calm, well-balanced women are less amusing to watch than neurotic messes).   So, please, don’t paint all or even most of woman-kind with the Reality TV Woman brush! 🙂

  11. 31
    SparklingEmerald

    I think I have read most, if not all of the comments, and so far I have not seen anyone address this part.
      
    “We’ve been seeing each other a month and will soon have our fourth date.”
      
    I think only 3 dates in a month is a bigger problem than the driving arrangements.   Seriously, 3 dates in a month averages to about 1 date every 10 days.   If a man is really excited to see a woman, I would think he would want to see her more often.   It almost sounds to me as if this man is a student of “Dr Love”, that cheesy love guru who advises men to wait 10 days to call a woman.  
      
    So we’ve had all sorts of speculation that this woman is a “diva” and that’s why she is making this a big deal, but for every dating guru who would call this behavior “princess” behavior, there is a another dating guru who will tell her that she must make a man “work for her” or else he will see her as “low value”.
    Perhaps the OP isn’t some snooty little Diva feeling entitled to the princess treatment, but perhaps she is sensing that this guy just really isn’t that into her, and she is picking up on that from the minimal amount of face to face time they’ve have actually spent together. And his asking her to drive out to meet him is just re-inforcing that for her.
    Personally for me, since I typically meet out for a first date, I really can’t “walk it back” and start insisting on being chauffered by date 4. So I personally haven’t made it a deal breaker.   If a guy asks me to meet him out somewhere, that in itself doesn’t signal much of anything to me.   I have offered to meet my boyfriend halfway many times, but he won’t hear of it, he always picks me up.   I think I have made a drive to see him exactly once.   The fact that he chauffers me everywhere despite my offers to meet halfway does make me feel special, but at this point in our relationship, if the driving were more of a fifty-fifty thing, I wouldn’t be offended by it. Believe me, his driving for me is something at this point isn’t EXPECTED, but it surely is APPRECIATED.
      
    Anyway, I don’t know the OP personally, and I don’t think there is enough information in her letter to speculate on what type of person she is, but here is my speculation, along with the admission that this is ONLY a guess on my part, only the OP really knows her motivations.   2 years ago, I wrote and EMK answered my question about how to make sense of all the different dating advice that is out there.   Honestly, when it comes to dating advice, you could ask 3 different dating “experts” a question about   who should pay, who should drive, when to have sex and if a woman should ever call a man, and you would get 10 different answers.
    Maybe the OP honestly is torn between wanting to be seen as “high value” while not coming off as a princess.
    As to the tired old accusations of “shit testing”, for all we know, HE could be shit testing her by asking her to meet him, to be weeding out “the Divas”.   Or maybe they are just two people who are honestly trying to navigate the world of dating, in a world where the once clearly defined gender roles are constantly changing.
    Anyway, I would have more of an issue with less than one date a week, than with who drives and who pays.   Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary.
      

  12. 32
    goldstreet

    Ladies DO NOT listen to these men or be discouraged by these men and PUA types who disparage treating a lady like gold.   Men these days will try to get women to lower their self esteem and expectations in order to have their way with women more easily.   This is the fantasy.   Don’t fall for it. The men I mentioned in my post, who treated me like gold, we had A LOT of respect for each other and they lingered around for years-everyone was happy and enjoyed each others’ company.   Nothing wrong with that!   I respected them and treated them well too!   They got home cooked meals, surprises, etc….all the normal stuff.   I should also mention that these were chaste courtships (no sex involved whatsoever).   Letting the men come to you- well this is also the advice that my FATHER gave me so I’ll listen to that before I listed to these PUAs.  There are cultural differences between the US and other countries I think primarily due to societal changes negative images of women in the media, video games, porn, etc (freely available for sex with no effort required).   There are some good ones in the US- like my neighbor who properly courted his now wife (also with no sex involved until they got married).

    Noemi- Where does it say in my message that I won’t clean/cook/raise children?   I have no problem doing that at all.   I love the mom role!   This blog is about dating so that is what I am commenting on.  

    1. 32.1
      Noemi

      @goldstreet, it sounds like you have a “what can a man do for me” attitude. You seem to think that men should throw down the red carpet for a women. Maybe so, but my point was the following: if you expect a man to treat you like a princess, you better treat him like a prince. Meet him halfway. Giving him your time, feminine charm, and excitement is not enough:
      “You are giving him your time (time is precious for a woman who wants to have children), your feminine charm (I hope you act like a lady), comfort, advice if asked for, excitement, you are dressing nicely (you paid for the outfit), you are appreciating his efforts and making him look good, and so on.”
        
        
      In today’s times, we women have largely achieved the equality we fought for.  

  13. 33
    goldstreet

    Ladies let me also add that when you allow a man who is courting to to give what he wants to from his heart, you will respond in a way that is pleasing to the guy!   Ying and yang.   You are giving him your time (time is precious for a woman who wants to have children), your feminine charm (I hope you act like a lady), comfort, advice if asked for, excitement, you are dressing nicely (you paid for the outfit), you are appreciating his efforts and making him look good, and so on.   These things are indirect and more passive things, but they all are of value.   Dating is much more high risk and high stakes for the female.   Any man who doesn’t appreciate this isn’t worth your time.   No matter what anyone on here says, you should be respected and not have to go out of your way.   Good luck to everyone!

    1. 33.1
      Karmic Equation

      goldstreet,
        
      You’re giving women BAADDDD advice. While what you state may have been true in the 80’s and maybe 90’s, for 20 and 30 yo’s then, that is NOT the case for women in their 40’s living in the 21st Century.
        
      Men had fewer dating options in the 80s and 90s. There was no internet. Flying about the country was not a regular thing, not even for executives.
        
      Please, if you truly want to help your fellow sisters, give them advice for modern dating. Not advice for dating in the 80s. The advice you’re giving will ensure that they remain alone. not help them get into relationships.

  14. 34
    goldstreet

    Oh really?   Then please explain why I and many other women who take this approach have gotten proposals from good men?   Married, and happily so…in the 21st century?   Times change.   Basic male/female human nature does not. And ladies- NEVER let fear of being alone cause you to lower your standards, because men will try and use that fear to try and get their way with you with the easiest and fastest route possible.

  15. 35
    Kate

    Update: Thanks, Evan, for the advice!  Indeed, as predicted, this night (and relationship) is over, but I have learned a lot. I think the real issue here–one that I failed to even identify when I wrote this letter–is that we had not, not even once, spoken on the phone. We had texted for months, but I just didn’t feel comfortable with him. Not comfortable enough to go to an unknown part of town (I’m a very urban girl, and he lived out near the boonies), and not comfortable enough to invite him over.  

    If if we had had a phone conversation, I might have said, hey, I don’t know that area. What’s it like? Or can we meet halfway? But because we only texted, I didn’t know what to do. That’s a mistake I won’t make again. Every guy I have dated since I have actually spoken to on the phone. It’s made a big difference! I will drive if I know you or know where we are going.

    So here is what happened after I wrote this letter: I did text him the night before and just asked what was going on, as most guys do pick me up for dates. I was just honest. He responded immediately that he would love to pick me up, and that he has daughters and was trying to be respectful of my safety. I was surprised by this. He picked me up and we did have a nice date. We even kissed. But he talked a lot about his ex-girlfriends, and how they’d taken advantage of him. He stated numerous times that now he had a “checklist” and process he had dates go through. Uh oh. I sensed that I was being tested! And that was a big turn off. In the end, I never saw him again.

    I said I would like to talk on the phone, but then he texted me several times saying he would call, but, disappointingly, did not. Did he not call because I wanted picked up? I doubt it. He seemed so wrapped up in past relationships and his checklist, I’m not sure he really even saw me.

    Finally, I do think relationships should be even. I’m happy to drive to a guy after we are exclusive. But before even one phone call? I want to be courted. And I’m ok with that. Here’s what I’m doing differently now:  Talking on the phone before a first date. I know Evan has preached this for some time but I ignored it–I was too busy! But now I see it saves time and creates intimacy. Maybe even enough so that I would go out of my way on a 4th date. We will see.  

    Thanks again! It’s great to hear so many perspectives.  

    1. 35.1
      Lin

      You rather jump in a stranger’s car, then drive yourself for only half an hour when you have the opportunity to leave when you don’t like the situation… Has nothing to do with your safety I think

    2. 35.2
      Karmic Equation

      “We’ve been seeing each other a month and will soon have our fourth date. He’s a man with a plan, which I like.”



      Kate, I think you’re doing some rationalization here. In your letter you never mentioned that you hadn’t shared phone calls which were important to you. You implied that he was behaving in a manner to your liking. You didn’t make mention of the fact that you ONLY TEXTED for the duration of your short relationship. Had you put that VERY IMPORTANT (in hindsight) piece of information in your letter, you would have gotten different responses from most people, which is, “Why are you dating a guy who doesn’t want to talk to you on the phone when it’s something you indicated you needed/wanted?”
        
      With this piece of information, I would now have to agree with AAORK that you were indeed shit-testing him.
        
      Next time a guy disappoints you time and again during the dating phase, just dump him. Don’t put him through the shit-test first to stroke your ego and THEN dump him. Not cool.

      1. 35.2.1
        AAORK

        Yep, I detected a TON of rationalizations in her response. The “Shit-testing Rationalization Hamster” strikes again .. he didn’t get off cheap, but he did get off easy.

    3. 35.3
      twinkle

      Sorry it didn’t work out Kate; better luck next time.
        
      It’s interesting how u and Evan both emphasise the importance of phone calls, even a phone call before the first date. It’s not something I ever viewed as important before reading this blog and WHD. I’m still not totally convinced it’s super-important (or maybe I don’t want it to be, because chatting on the cell phone gets expensive, lol), but it’s given me lots of food for thought. Maybe I/we should incorporate more phone calls into rships.

        1. twinkle

          Thanks, Evan, I liked the video a lot. I agree with your general principle of making online dating more like “real-life”, like meeting someone at a party, being a good conversationalist, stepping outside together where it’s quieter and building a connection.
            
          I liked your suggestion of Scheduling phone calls, so that u don’t end up playing “phone tag”–that was one big thing I disliked about phone calls, and I’m sure many pple dislike that too. I’ll try that. =)

      1. 35.3.2
        SparklingEmerald

        Hi Twinkle – I used to try and follow the 2-2-2 rule and didn’t want to meet up in person until I got a phone call.     But after awhile, I had so many enthusiastic e-mail exchanges seem to go completely off the rails when we got to the phone convo.     It’s like   some of the guys HATED talking on the phone, would clam up, and then we wouldn’t meet.   My foray into online dating forums (besides this one ) revealed to me that many men HATE talking on the phone.   After giving and getting lot’s of “bad phone”, I came to hate it. And really, (for me) it’s harder to talk on the phone to a total stranger, than it is in person, because in person, you can be engaged in an activity, and you have the shared surrounding to spark conversation.   I don’t think a guy being bad on the phone necessarily makes him a bad relationship partner, or means he won’t be a good in person conversationalist.    
          
        So after some really excrutiatingly bad phone calls I decided to try going from e-mail to an in person meeting , UNLESS a guy completely initiated a phone call.   (Usually phone calls would happen because a guy would ask if I wanted to meet in person and I would give him my phone # and suggest that we arrange it by phone, or I would somehow manuever us to phone from e-mail)  
          
        Well after I made THAT decision, the very next guy that I had a good e-mail exchange with, set up an initial meet and greet by e-mail.   We had been having a very nice e-mail exchange (via personal e-mail), I liked his profile and pics, he seemed relationship oriented, etc.   We continued to communicate after we set up our meet and greet date, and I decided to just try an in person meeting withOUT the phone call.
          
        That was in December, and we are now a couple and so far, I am extremely happy in this relationship.   He is very good to me, I NEVER wondered where I stood with him, he pursued me from minute one, and claimed me as his exclusive girl early on, and it all felt very natural and organic.   I feel very loved and adored, and not only did I never wonder “where is this relationship going”, I never felt like I had to convince myself to be attracted to him or give him a chance.   (But there is more to us than feeling attracted)
        I think we have had ONE phone call in our relationship, but we spend enough time together in person, and we e-mail and facebook in between, that I really don’t feel like that anything is missing or that he is withholding anything from me.   My guy just doesn’t like to spend time on the phone, but he sure love spending face to face time with me. (and vice versa)
          
        So I let this one thing go.   Or rather, it just faded into irrelevance for me, because my sweetheart goes way above and beyond in every other aspect of our relationship, that I just will not make an issue out of the lack of phone calls.  
        So if phone calls aren’t that important to you, you might already be one step ahead, because it seems a lot of guys (mine included) really don’t like talking on the phone.
          
        JM2C, YMMV.

        1. twinkle

          Hi Sparkling Emerald, I remember being worried that u sounded discouraged about dating a few mths ago, and am so happy that u’re in a fulfilling rship now. 🙂
            
          I think the way u suggested a phone call to set up dates is a good move, though it didn’t work for u. I may try that in future.
            
          Yeah your bf sounds great overall, Evan himself says “Don’t hit on 20” in dating, like in blackjack. I guess for better or worse, many of us have greatly reduced our phone calls thanks to more time spent on social media. If u 2 spend a lot of your free time together, lack of phone calls isn’t a dealbreaker IMO.
            
          Despite our lack of phone calls, I’m actually happy with my bf and we think highly of each other. I’m grateful for Evan’s WHD book and I esp LOVE the regular email advice he sends to those who bought the book because I find they really speak to the heart and are v helpful   <3…The main ‘problem’ with my bf is he’s a middle-aged alpha-ish male bachelor. Hmm. It’s only thanks to this website that I even know it’s a red-flag. Yet he loves me, treats me well and prioritises me. I guess I’ll give it a try, (I tried leaving before and he stopped me) but it’s scary. As another commenter joked, maybe Evan’s next product should be a crystal ball. :p

        2. Gabri'el

          Hey Emerald, like Twinkle, I’m also happy to hear that you have found someone and that you are back with us, I always loved your comments.
            
          Twinkle, if you tried to leave your boyfriend but he stopped you  –  I’m guessing you allowed him to stop you, because you said he treats you good-  , why did you want to leave if he is doing all the right things?
            
          I know how much Evan hates texting (he backs it up pretty good in his Ted-Talk video), but I’m curious, why he doesn’t include skyping in the 2-2-2 rule? You wouldn’t have to worry about fake or old pictures if you skyped… or I’m I missing something???

        3. SparklingEmerald

          Twinkle, Michael — Thanks for your kind words.
            
          Twinkle – I am glad to hear that you are happy with you “alpha-ish middle aged” boyfriend.   I am a little concerned (ok, I know I am a total stranger and it’s none on my beeswax)when you say you tried to leave him and he “stopped you”.    
            
          If he “stopped you” by agreeing to change some bad behavior you called him out on, or if you were only leaving because you were getting cold feet, and he warmed up your cold feet somehow, then fine.   But please, if he stopped you with some sort of threats, or emotional manipulation, then please RUN !
            
          I only say this, because I have witnessed up close and personal a relationship where a “player” became obsessed with a woman, “fell in love” (or decided that he found “the one” and wanted to own her).   They married, and this player-turned-one-woman-man married was so obsessed with her that the relationship was unhealthy and downright abusive, mostly mental abuse, but occasional physical as well, with lots of threats of physical abuse, usually not carried out, but sometimes it was.   She tried to leave him several times, and he “stopped her” with tears, threats and using their children to keep her.   He succeeded in stopping his “caged wife” from ever leaving.   (The biggest threat was “I’ll see you dead, before you divorce me”)   He could go from blubbering cry baby (I can’t live without you – crocodile tears, he was just a bully)   to threats of violence.   He even beat one of his children black and blue with a belt on some trumped up charge when she tried to leave him.   Needless to say, the relationship was extremely dysfunctional.    
          Some players, when they finally fall for a woman, they fall very HARD.   Sometimes they will treat her like gold, sometimes they think she owes him some sort of worship like he is a God, because the player guy who could bed several women, has now picked her to be “the one”, and if she doesn’t worship and give him complete obedience there is literal hell to pay.   And of course, the ultimate sin in the eyes of these men who think they are owed being treated like a God, is to leave them.   (or try to, they are pretty good at “stopping” their woman from leaving)
            
          I hope his “stopping you” you is not with threats or emotional abuse.   I hope my fears are completely unfounded.    
            
          Please, be safe.

        4. SparklingEmerald

          Oops, my first sentence should have read ” Twinkle,Gabri’el, thank you for your kind words”.


          Sorry Gabri’el, Michael replied to me in another thread.

        5. twinkle

          Gabriel and Sparkling Emerald, thanks for the well-wishes. 🙂

          Gabriel, I felt uncertain because I’d seen pple on this blog (both Evan and commenters) say that alpha males, or guys still unmarried in their 40s, were generally not the best bets for LTR/marriage.   My bf was also quite different from men I’d dated in the past. Those were some reasons why I felt unsure.

          Uh not a lot of pple I know like Skyping unless it’s someone overseas. But I think Evan would include Skype as a type of phone call, if u wanna use it. 🙂

          Sparkling Emerald, sorry I wasn’t clear, he didn’t try to stop me in a bad way, but thanks for the concern. 🙂 He is a v good-hearted person, not like the borderline-abusive guy u mentioned, thank goodness. What happened was as u summed up nicely–i got cold feet and he warmed them up. I was wary as thanks to this blog, I read of many women who had unsuccessful rships with charismatic long-term bachelors. And things were moving slowly IMO, but that was a lot of my doing–I’ve had some big problems in the recent past to deal with, and couldn’t meet him half as often as he wanted. Partly due to that, we only became bf/gf and traded ‘I love u’s around the 6mth mark, which is like 3 mths later than Evan seems to recommend. (although he did tell him he wanted me as his gf around 3rd/4th date, we never officially did that then).

          Because he seems sincere and we do love each other, we’re gonna give this a try. I’ve to be careful balancing between being a sucker who waits 3+ yrs w/o a > permanent commitment, while not being a fatalist who thinks it’s doomed to fail and then creates a self-fulfilling prophesy.

          I’m happy u have a rship with a guy who never causes u to feel uncertain though. That is the kinda guy and the kinda rship many women want, and the kind I hope to have.

  16. 36
    Chance

    Hi twinkle, I think age has a lot to do with it.    Many folks (male and female) under the age of 35 prefer text over phone.

    1. 36.1
      twinkle

      Hi Chance, U’re right, age plays a part, but I think texting appeals to many pple above 35 as well, because it’s so so convenient, more convenient than calling. However, phone calls do have advantages in terms of building rships. Btw as a guy, u can really set yourself apart by calling occasionally. 😉
        
      Recently, I’ve had relatively few first dates but they almost all went very well. So at least in my case, phone calls may be less critically-necessary before the first date, although I will still try it out as Evan recommends. As I understand from the video, Evan recommends calls before the first date as a method of seeking quality first dates over quantity, which I’m already getting.
        
      What I really need is to have more phone calls to develop budding relationships, to increase intimacy once we’ve already decided to continue seeing each other. Now I have a boyfriend but we’re not in the habit of calling. 🙁 So I think depending on what each person finds lacking in their dating life, they should tweak that part accordingly.
        
      It may be easier to start the habit of phone calls early on, to set the precedent.

      1. 36.1.1
        JB

        Well Twinkle me and my gal of 9 weeks are about 50/50 on the text vs phone chat thing. we just have one rule with each other if we want to chat either of us just texts “can you phone chat?” first so we’re not interrupting anything and that works fine.
        For the record on this gal I’ve been seeing. I sent 1 initial email to her she replied with “I’d love to meet you for a drink” and I emailed her back “sure what’s your schedule like” and 2 days later we met and have been happy ever since. She did text me the day we were going to meet and said “do you want to talk on the phone?” and I text her back and said “that’s ok we’ll see each other in a couple of hours I’m sure we’ll be fine”. We had no shortage of conversation but it was a little weird. I know it goes against the norm and especially what Evan teaches but this time it worked. I don’t expect to meet most women after 1 email and 2 days. In fact it happens very rarely if ever. The 2 2 2 rule is great on paper but for a lot of us(men AND women)  that have been doing this a long time patience wears very thin. Sorry Evan. 🙂

        1. twinkle

          Hi JB, 50-50 for calls-vs-texting is really good I think. 🙂
            
          I guess u and that lady are very spontaneous people, which has many upsides. If u were both ok with things happening fast, I think it’s fine. As I understand from the video, though, Evan says many women in general are more comfortable with things moving a bit slower. That 2-2-2 guideline is a compromise between fast and slow. Just speaking for myself, I wouldn’t have wanted to meet a guy as fast as your gf met u–probably because I’m quite introverted and wouldn’t be sure yet if I liked him enough to wanna go out with him. But I’m very glad it has worked out so well for both of u. 🙂

  17. 37
    theOtherKindaMale

    Like skaramouche I’m from a large canadian city.
    The OP’s attitude would be a complete and utter turn off to me. I’m not particularly interested in chilvalrous behavior. I’m not opposed to gender roles in a general way but I’m extremely turned off by the whole idea of having to follow a script. A script that I don’t know and haven’t been raised with anyways.

    I’ve been on a few great dates with this woman. Because I’m absent minded, I often forget to open the door because she gets to the door first, since she walks more briskly than I do. No big deal! We laugh about it! She has mostly been paying for her own drinks. No big deal. She insisted and I let her pay for her drinks and so far it doesn’t look like I failed any test. Things are going very well indeed. She looks like the kind of woman who would rather pay her own way. That’s not a problem for me and I have no intention of making a big deal out of it.

  18. 38
    Norman Kaden

    Personally if you rang him and told him the truth about not feeling comfortable drive in a part of the town that your not used to I’m sure that he wouldn’t mind picking you up.    If he does mind then perhaps he’s not the gentleman you thought he was. If you had been to the place 2 or 3 times that would be different but as this is your first time there I think that it’s absolutely reasonable to expect him to drive you.   Besides if he truly likes you he won’t mind.  

  19. 39
    SparklingEmerald

    Gen’l Comment on this topic (and I know the OP has already moved on and for her this is moot)
    But speaking as someone who is   BOTH a nervous Nellie about driving and was a nervous Nellie about having a stranger pick me the first few times during the get to know each other phase, this is how I’ve navigated the situation.
    When it comes to driving I don’t like, driving at night, driving in a strange part of town, hunting for parking a spot, then having to walk 6 blocks to my destination.    
    Google maps are your friend !   After getting horribly lost on a first meet and greet at a very nice restaurant in the middle of nowhere, (where the date was very uncomfortable, awkward, no chemistry on my part, ) I have learned to limit those initial meet and greets to familiar areas, with onsite parking.  
    In my old age, unfortunately, places I’m willing to drive is getting narrower and narrower.   I wish it wasn’t true, and I do “force” myself to sometimes drive out of my comfort zone so I don’t end up becoming a hermit by virtue of not wanted to drive more that a block from home, in broad daylight, perfect weather.
    As a result, there are now some place I just don’t drive, PERIOD.   Not for a date, not for a MEETUP, not for an audition, not for a special event that looks interesting to me.   I even missed one of my son’s concerts, because the area he was performing was HORRIBLE traffic-wise, parking-wise, distance-wise, time of night-wise etc.   He was very understanding about it.
    So, after a few late nights of getting lost after going way out of my neighborhood into unfamiliar territory at night (whether it be for a meet up, audition, or intial meet and greet) I have started looking up EVERY new place I drive on GOOGLE MAPS.   Most addresses have a photographic view of the street available.   You can assess the surrounding street area and see if there is ample parking.   Usually the establishment has a website and sometimes they describe the parking situation.
    So, before I met my BF, I would limit those first and meet and greets to familiar territory during daylight or early evening hours, and research the parking and directions in advance, check the traffic report before going.
      
    In the OP’s case, perhaps after researching the place, if I thought it was daytime doable for me but not night time and say something like “I’d love to try this restaurant, but since I’m not familiar with neighborhood and my night time vision isn’t great, perhaps we can meet there for lunch instead.”
      
    If the parking is an issue, ASK him where is the best place to park.   (Men love to feel needed, maybe he doesn’t need to come drive all the way out to pick you up, but he’d be glad to advise you on the free-after 6PM parking garage and meet you there and walk with you to your destination)
    Communicate your specific concerns about the drive, location, parking, etc. and negotiate a solution.   It doesn’t HAVE to be the guy driving 2 hours round trip for a dinner date.
    Luckily, my sweetie and I complement each other very well.   He absolutely loves to drive, prefers road trips to flying (will only fly if there are time constraints to consider) and has turned me down several times when I have offered to meet him somewhere, or make the drive out to his place for our weekends together.   He won’t hear of it.
    In fact, I had to drive to his part of town for an errand straight after work, so he made dinner for me at his place.   I told him I had to get gas on the way home, and asked him for the nearest gas station, he drew me a map to the nearest station, and showed me how I could get in and out of the gas station   and home with nothing but right turns (I avoid left turns when driving also, silly, I know, but it’s just how I am)   When I got home, there was an e-mail from him waiting for me making sure I got home safely.
    He knows about my silly driving phobias and he never makes me feel stupid, spoiled, or incompetent about it.   Since he LOVES to drive (he has told me he does several times) I guess my weakness and his strength complement each other very well in this case.
      

  20. 40
    Irish Gal

    I’m with those who don’t think this is princessy-behavior. That early in a budding relationship is when men are supposed to be in   high courting mode, on their best behavior. They’re supposed to treat you like YOU are the prize, which you are. Women DO have other options – if a man doesn’t show that he’s trying to be considerate and impress me, I can stay home alone and have a better time, go out with someone else, or friends.

    My current boyfriend of 6+ months still does everything he can to make my   life easier, to be thoughtful and considerate. He insists on picking me up for dates, opening car /house doors etc. He makes himself useful, still won’t let me pay for much of anything (maybe a lunch or cocktails here and there)   even if I insist (he knows I have a kid in college and am a young widow). We were invited to a plush Long Island wedding back in January, and he insisted on providing funds to purchase an appropriate dress (which was outside my budget).   He entertains me well an often with theater or concert or sporting event tickets. He has the means to be generous with his money and his time, and I’m grateful for his kindnesses and consideration. My daughter refers to it as ‘it’s ok to BE spoiled, just don’t GET spoiled’. I think it’s an important distinction.

    I reciprocate in ways that I can / can afford. And it’s good enough for him. He wants to be with me and as he explains it, enjoy my company. He doesn’t care what I do in return. For him me continuing to pick up the phone when he calls, or to agree to accompany him places, makes him happy. And he makes me really happy!

     

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