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I was at a speed dating event last night for the second time. Just like the first time, it was full of smart, pretty, successful women in their thirties and forties and men of similar ages with manual labor jobs (and a few running their own manual labor businesses) but no men of equivalent professional or educational status except for one doctor. Why he was there, I do not know, as he made it clear that he was not really looking to date anyone. He did however buy me a drink in the bar afterwards and asked me what I thought of the event. I said I would be unlikely to go again because I have nothing in common to talk about with the men that I have met at these events.
He proceeded to give me a lecture as to why I shouldn’t automatically dismiss dating the two guys who were responsible for service washes in the launderette as they may be perfectly nice people and that career women in their thirties get what they deserve if they don’t. I am just wondering how many other men think like this? For me, it seems plain common sense that, while professional women with masters degrees may be compatible with men in less successful professions, the guy that left school with no qualifications to work in the launderette is highly unlikely to be a good fit.
It is not the first time that I have come across the attitude that career women deserve to be alone if they don’t want to date men without any education, or men a generation older, or the obese. I am just wondering how many men really think like this.
Fiona
Fiona,
It doesn’t matter how many men think like this.
Just like KC’s email a few weeks ago about how she receives emails from disappointing men she meets online, you’re illustrating an amusing concern with men’s preferences in women.
Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.
My answer to you is largely the same as my answer to her.
Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.
If he is a dishwasher and he finds you pretty, he’s going to ask you out.
If you don’t go out with him because you intimate that you’re “above” him on the dating food chain, it’s predictable that he might lash out at you.
You may be technically correct that he’s not of your social station, but that’s of no concern to the man you’ve just insulted to his face.
Literally, the ONLY thing he can do when you tell him that you have nothing in common (without getting to know him) is tell you that you’re wrong for judging people and that this attitude may come back to haunt you.
Women tend to adhere more to their checklists, which usually call for a man who is just like you, but better. And without your flaws.
He’s right about that. This is one of the big blind spots that women have in dating.
Allow me to explain.
You painted a black and white world, Fiona. It wasn’t that he was less educated than you. It’s that he was a laundry operator. It’s not that a man is older than you, it’s that he’s a generation older than you. It’s not that he’s a few pounds overweight, it’s that he’s obese. All of your examples are extreme, but not all men are extreme examples of anything.
So, to be crystal clear: no one (besides the fat, stupid and elderly) is saying that you have to date the fat, stupid, or elderly.
Got it? Good.
What I am saying — and what these men are inartfully suggesting as well — is that you don’t marry a list of traits. You marry a human being. And if you never think outside the box, you may well find yourself standing alone at the end of the dance.
The reason that I call this a blind spot for women is because women tend to adhere more to their checklists, which usually call for a man who is just like you, but better. And without your flaws.
Taller. Richer. Smarter. Funnier. Saner. Sexier.
Alas, men don’t care if you’re taller, richer, smarter, or funnier.
We just want you to think that we’re amazing.
Which is why men can date ANYONE — regardless of education, income, and height – while many women can only date 1 in 1000 men who are 6 feet tall, with a masters degree and a $200,000 income.
So are some men unrealistic in thinking that they deserve a chance with you?
Yes, they are.
Are they also correct in pointing out that they are open to a lot more women than you are open to men, and this may hinder your ability to find lasting love?
Yes, they are.
To your original question, no one is saying (apart from the jilted men) that you deserve to be alone. But I would be remiss if I didn’t pull out the nugget of wisdom from the flawed logic of the laundry operator.
Fiona,
Reading between the lines of your post I got the impression that you are a decent just trying to make your way through the world like everyone else. Your choice of words, however, makes you come like a stiff snob. Being viewed (judged) like that is the reason why many men will not even go near a woman who earns even a little bit more than he does.
Steve
Thank you, that’s what I was thinking. What the doctor was saying was not that you are expected to date a man with less education then you, what he was saying, is don’t count a man out simply because he has less education then you. He was saying, that these men (and who says their professions are less successfull? Do you have any idea how much money a plumber makes? Yikes!) are good men to have in your life, regardless of whether or not they wear a suit to work. A successful life does not mean the same thing to all people. To some it means condiminiums and flashy cars, to others, it simply means all of their needs are met, and by the way, that is what success used to mean to everyone. That was the American dream. But these days it’s not good enough for people. Now everyone acts like if your not Donald Trump then your some loser. I think it’s sad.
right on !
Preach Anjilyn!
i completely agree with you about the individual meaning of success. although i believe that if two people have a different life vision, and a different idea of success, this might mean that they are just not compatible to spend their lives together.
both of them might be amazing, beautiful, caring people, but this issue creates a distance between them that might leave them deprived, and it would only get worse over the years.
Anjilyn: Using the word ‘yikes’ turns me off. Why don’t you become a plumber if you think they make so much?
Yes, here I am again! Years later, still physically beautiful and still single! When I asked a man recently (who had never met me) why he wanted to marry me, his first response was ‘Because you’re beautiful’!
If a man can’t take the fact that you want someone with a college degree, he needs to develop a thicker skin. There’s a reason it’s called MEN .
Like many women on this blog, I fall into the category of high-earning, intelligent successful women who have had the experience Fiona and others describe of feeling like I rarely met men my “equal” and got criticised for being too snobby or picky or dismissive when I bemoaned the fact that I got asked out on line by 55 year old overweight bus drivers who couldn’t spell.
After years of fruitless dating since my divorce, and thanks in no small part to Evan’s advice on this matter, I have now met a wonderful man who I am happily in love with, who wants to marry me. He earns less than I do, has little formal education beyond school and works in farming, so in that respect he perhaps falls into the category of men who for a long time I would have considered “unsuitable.” And yet – he is highly suitable! He is manly, confident, has intelligent and interesting things to say about all aspects of life, is the same age as me (48)sexy, good looking, has no ex wife and kids complicating the picture, has money in the bank…. He is also loving, committed, a good cook and great at DIY.
Where I think Evan’s advice has helped me is that it has somehow freed me up to give things a try with a man who is not exactly what I thought I was looking for but who has so many good traits that things work really well between us. It took me a long time to come round to the idea that I could potentially have a successful relationship with someone who wasn’t a professional, university-educated type, but through Evan’s repeated message about not looking for a carbon copy of yourself but looking for someone who was loving and marriage minded, I had reached a place where I was at least prepared to consider it when this man came along. He pursued me, he saw the potential in the relationship before I did, is not the least bit intimidated by my income or letters after my name and is very much the man in the relationship, which is important to me.
I suppose what I’m trying to say is that although its true a lot of the guys you meet at events will not be suitable for you, it is important to be at least open to the possibility that the laundry guy may be your ideal mate. Its hard to get your head round this, and in no way changes the fact that most of these guys (most guys, period!) will not be right for you, but it is possible that one of them might be. Does that mean you have to date every overweight, ageing laundry worker who comes along? Absolutely not! But if there was a less overweight, kinda cute, younger laundry worker… well, maybe…
Anyway, I’ve been looking for an opportunity to thank Evan for the part he has played in helping me to meet my soon-to-be husband, so this seems like a good opportunity: THANK YOU EVAN for opening my mind to this possibility and enabling me to meet someone I would likely have passed up had it not been for your wise words.
Thank YOU, Helene. Comments like yours make all the hate mail, criticism, and arguments with anonymous strangers worth it. Seriously. Congratulations on your happiness.
Evan, Do you realize what you’ve just done?
You’ve patted a woman on the back for finding a man that aligns with a larger portion of her “pro’s” checklist after writing an article about NOT to do that. And I quote:
Hi J – Are you trying to be funny, or did you not read Helene’s comments that the man she is in love with ” earns less than I do, has little formal education beyond school and works in farming, so in that respect he perhaps falls into the category of men who for a long time I would have considered “unsuitable.” ????
You are kidding aren’t you ?
Firstly, thank you to all.
Without repeating too much, I agree with the need to be open and to find a partner who compliments one, such as Helene has described. I too, fall into the professional university educated category of woman and would like to think I am reasonably emotionally mature. I thoroughly appreciate Helene’s description of the man she has found. I have a respect for men and have healthy communication and kindness in past relationships (a long marriage without sexual compatibility), so no complaints about men. However, having been in a relationship with a kind and witty man for around four years, I find that I am unable to commit properly. I feel the difference in education and general achievement runs deeper. That is, that there may be a mismatch of compatibility in the long-term. The main issue being a lack of intellectual curiosity and general curiosity in the world. I fell that curiosity drives action to a large extent. I would like this quality in a partner. My partner does have many good qualities (the reason we have lasted this long, along with his determination). He is kind and loving and we just get-on. However, I don’t feel we have much in common. Another big issue that holds me in the relationship is that we have built a hard-to-give-up sexual bond that I feel is quite ideal, and seems to keep growing (we are very compatible in this way). My dilemma is despite the good parts of the relationship, and despite my being open minded about differences in education etc, I still feel I cannot commit in the long-term. I have struggled from the start with what I believe to be a deep-seated incompatibility in the long-term ( but have also found it hard to move-on, due to the good things).
How can I go-about figuring out whether we are compatible in the long-term? I care deeply (there is quite an attachment), but I have been unable to feel that I could love this man completely. I do feel I understand the difference between ‘in love’ and ‘the commitment to love’.
Thanks again to all, and Evan for including the subtleties in discussion.
wow, very thoughtfully said. I can so relate and empathize with you.
I know that after a time, and looking within, you will know what to do. And I am speaking outloud for myself as well.
Wishing you good things!
Ann
Such an articulate way to describe the exact same predicament that I find myself in. It’s not snobbery to want a partner who matches you in intellect but a desire for full-filling compatibility. Whilst not a scholar, I am an intelligent and educated woman with a partner who has little formal education. Does this mean he is unintelligent? Of course not; just that his ‘smarts’ lie in other areas that I feel are mismatched to mine. This leads to extreme frustration at times and despite the fact that he is a lovely man I find myself longing for someone who stimulates me mentally. This was something that I never thought I would have to compromise on and as a result, despite all the good things we share, I find it hard to picture us in the long term. In response to Evan’s quote, I don’t want to be the one standing alone at the end of the dance and wonder if it’s worth sacrificing a trait that you thought was non-negotiable in a partner.
Sorry to tell you, but most of the time it’s snobbery.
Don’t take me the wrong way, being with someone where communication is harder is a pain in the butt sometimes, but unless the person is way below average it tends not to be an issue.
If the person is above “make america great again” or “I’m voting for Hilary because it’s about time we had a female president” then they are good to go.
And I’m from stem, which means the girl doesn’t even have to be dumb for communication to be sort of a problem.
There’s stuff I want to talk about that it’s stupid for me to expect someone (even if I was gay) who can talk about it.
The thing is, when you get smarter the world doesn’t. By raising your standards as you grow all you do is make things harder on yourself. Which doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it at all, just be careful while you do it.
Very wise woman, all the best to you!
I like your words of wisdom. It is a balancing act. If you are an intelligent, financially stable and successful woman it is understandable that you would also seek those with those traits. Likewise, physical attraction is neccesary. I am trim and fit and practice a healthy lifestyle. Being obese is something all men can remedy if they will. If they think that obesity does not matter to women’s sexual attraction of them they are wrong. Amazing how obese men go after fit women. Nowadays women are not looking to be a just a nurse and a purse. They do have criteria they want in man. They have to have respect for a man. What appeals to each women varies. Knowing what they offer, they are looking for something comparable to themselves. Remember highly successful men seek women who are attractive, wise, and intelligent too.
Helene: I only read the first paragraph or so of yours, but I think that is attributable to men wanting to be the center of attention when they are good looking and ‘educated’, so nowadays they tend to pick less-attractive women. That is why the less-attractive men with less education are messaging those of us who are well-educated and very attractive. Didn’t used to be that way in the early 1960’s and past decades.
(noyb3 is the OLD email address).
I disagree! Men are likely more willing to date a larger range of women because they are not as marriage oriented – they will date for sex, or short-term reasons more often than women will – 2) They are fussy in different ways! – They prefer thinner, more attractive and youthful women, and do not care so much about education and career, because they are not as concerned with intellectual interaction.
Yes, How dare men want to date someone they are attracted to! They nerve I tell you. The reason men don’t care about a women’s career or education is because a man supports himself and doesn’t look for someone else to take care of them.
Men are attracted to women they are psychically attracted to, not women they feel will provide for them.
How many young men do you see “dating” 80 year old rich women? Now reverse it, how many 80 year old rich men do you see “dating” young beautiful women.
Steve, how dare you preach this heresy. You are in severe danger of being burned at the stake if you continue with this course. Don’t you know that women who pursue careers and professional qualifications are not projecting their desires onto men. Whatever, we will just have to remake men to suit what the women want. Irony off. Over and out.
Oh Lordie, Oscar, that was rich!
I have a bachelor’s, two masters degrees; speak three languages very well (other than English); have visited or worked in more than a dozen countries; play classical, rock and jazz guitar; and did a brief stint as a professional soccer player in the USA.
To many men, it’s mostly about preferences–I don’t refer to a scorecard or checklist when deciding to ask a woman for an evening together. She merely needs to be kind, attentive, respectful, and speak one of the three languages if she’s not too good at English. So many women are refining themselves out of a shrinking market, especially since so many jobs occupied by men with higher educations have been or are continuing to be eliminated.
Steve, you are right that men support themselves but i had seen plenty of guys who are looking for women to support them.
Regarding women looking for someone to support them, u forgot that its’ women who give birth, so naturally they want to make sure that a man can support the child.
Ok, so you can go back on the kitchen. (which actually means you can conform yourself to the risk-less prospect of mediocrity.)
You can’t have both kid, If you want to be successful you have to understand that you give your kid to your husband right after you get out of labor.
And if he’s successful he won’t be as willing to give out his career and everything he worked himself to be as you are because if he does he actually loses everything, including you.
There are some younger men in their 20s who do date much older rich women. They’re usually called gigilos lol
Yes. Sad most women think they are above it when they aren’t.
It’s my first advice for women with dating problems, hire a prostitute and stop whinnying.
This is exactly the type of double standards men unfairly have that I HATE!!!!!!!
Several guys told me they only date good-looking (by their standards), slim women. When you tell them they should be open-minded, lower their standards (just like men tell us) they look at us like we’ve got 2 heads, like we’re crazy. HELLO????
There’s this guy, he only looks for extremely physically attractive women for sex/one night stands. Yet he condemns gold-diggers. When I tell him he’s a “sex-digger” he totally denies it and gets so indignant. HELLO, don’t you see you’re a sex-digger just like the gold-diggers?? He thinks it’s totally ok for him to only have one night stands with attractive women, but it’s so morally corrupt if women look for only rich husbands. Totally unfair double standards.
And the worst part is, they don’t REALIZE or ADMIT they have such unfair standards!
I think you go that confused. He’s looking for someone to sleep with. What he was saying was women look for someone to marry.
Stop with the bullshit,
Women have a problem with manwhores as well, just as much for a fact.
This was clear in the nineteen hundreds and it’s still clear.
It’s a double standards most people hold.
Steve – You just illustrated her point! You’re saying it’s okay for you to be fussy and judgmental about what you want to be fussy and judgmental about but, it’s not for a woman?
Fact: men are shallow with looks, women are shallow with status/money…and each judges the other sex unfairly and holds them to sometimes unrealistic expectations.
For men: Try giving a size 14 average looking woman with a good personality a chance.
For women: Try giving a man who adores you with an average paying job a chance.
For both sexes: Date people in your league! That does NOT mean if you are attractive as a man look for an equally attractive woman. Many men think this. NO! Dating in your league for a man means that if you have an average paying job, look for an equally average-looking woman. If you have a high paying job, you will attract more good-looking women. The more status you have and better provider you are, the more desirable you are to women. For a woman, it means if you are an average looking woman, look for a man who makes an average salary.
Women are shallow with looks, status and money, man are shallow with looks.
That’s a fact.
Most men would give a size 14 woman a chance without her having to be rich or ultra smart, most women wouldn’t give an average man with an average job, average appearance a chance.
Perhaps a smart man would date a women that is successful just like he is to both be even more successful and powerful as a team? 😉
I understand that this what you want to happen, but as you are aware, it does not always happen. I think this is what women seek out, but men do not…at least they don’t like women do. While a lot of men and women who have degrees marry each other, it has more to do with the fact that more and more people earn degrees, and also the fact that people with degrees tend to run into each other more often. While in college, you typically date other college people. You form a circle let of friends you went to college with. You live in the same areas of town.
But, the fact remains that most men with degrees, do not have that as a requirement for a wife. That isn’t going to change. Men prioritise different things. So, instead of wishing it were the other way, learn to prioritize different things. Stop looking at things that don’t matter. Look instead to whether a man is really in to you, and his character, and whether you have similar ways if expressing love. How you express love to each other is far more important. If you love to hold hands, and hug, etc, but he is not nearly as affectionate, you relationship is doomed to fail.
Most women who are complaining about not wanting to marry someone who isn’t their financial or intellectual equal make more than enough money to support themselves. They just don’t want to have to support their husbands, as well.
I know a lot of men who have really hurt themselves financially by marrying women who had no earning potential. The only thing that these men cared about when they got married was their wife’s appearance , and now their credit ratings are ruined, and they are bitter. However, the women never agreed to make money, or limit their spending, they only agreed to stay attractive, so the men have no right to be bitter.
Hello Steve:
I agree with you on some aspects of your post. Men that are successful and/or have a career and can support themselves, are not looking necessarily for a woman to support them. And men are much more into visually appealing stimulation then women are – it is a fact, I studies the difference in the sexes. Successful men want some type of eye candy, whatever that may be and of course it is different for each man.
And no, a lot of men, in fact many men, do not care about a womans education. they will marry a stipper if she is beautiful and sexy, but she may only have graduated high school. Do they care, absolutely not. But other men do want a woman who has a job and can support herself and is not looking for a guy to take care of her. They look for women with good self-esteem, who can have a conversation, and is independent to a certain degree. There are different preferences for different men and so we will never ever be able to narrow it down to just a few “kinds”. There are all kinds. And lots of heavy set women are married and happy because there are men who like larger women.
As a woman, my criteria are this: a guy who takes care of his health, has a job, a car, does not live with Mom/Dad, is clean, has a sense of humor, and can dress himself for different occasions, and has some sense of social manners.
LOL as a career man I married a career woman not because I wanted her to take care of me but because I didn’t want a hypergamic leech and well guess what if you don’t want a leech you gotta go for a career woman. “B-b-b-b-but she won’t have time for the kids” is B.S. that’s what home based businesses are for. Physical attraction is overrated – guess what happens when she gets old or the babies start wreaking havoc on her figure? Yeah men who marry for physical attraction will cheat based on it, too. A low maintenance frumpy woman who loves you for you and is good in bed is worth a thousand smokin’ hot babes.
I agree Kathy. I would say that 90% plus of men don’t seem to rate intelligence in a woman. I find that to be quite sad. For me intelligence is important as well as emotional intelligence.
well I guess stupid is as stupid does, shallow men get shallow women. Then they wonder why they are broken hearted from a woman who cheats on him or takes his money.
This is a common mistake: Equating intelligence with formal-education degrees. I find that many women project THEIR desires onto a man, and judge men by what WOMEN aspire to achieve. Further, I have found that some of the densest, irrational, inflexible, obdurate and unstable people to possess advanced degrees.
Plus, she assumes that just because a man does not insist that a woman have a degree similar to his, that he is shallow, and that the woman with the high school education, or something less than a bachelor’s degree is also shallow. In addition, she assumes that a woman who has a degree would never cheat on the man, or would not rape him in divorce court, given the chance. I would like to see the research that backs up that wild claim.
Well since we’re engaged in the rancor again, I have a Master’s degree. I briefly dated a man with 2 PhD’s who was a dolt. I fell for ones who didn’t have that. Did I date them to feel superior to men? No. I am better than no one. I always wanted an education. It has made me able to stand on my own two feet as a single parent. I am grateful for that but I come from common folk and that’s what I am.
SchadenFreudianslipper your last sentence made me giggle… I am surrounded by some of the people you mentioned.
Loving the name 🙂
Absolutely true. I love to rant and rave about hypergamic women and women who chase Chads. But equally as tragic are the men who pursue women based on their looks with almost reckless disregard for their moral character and intelligence. Good quality women who aren’t hot babes are often left in the friendzone. This needs to stop.
When we first meet a woman, we don’t have much to go off of aside from her looks. Once we start to talk we can get a sense of her intelligence, but for men it’s not about the number of degrees you have or the prestigious school you went to. It’s not about your income or your workplace achievements. While all of that may be very impressive, it’s not really what attracts us the way it might attract a woman. If I’m a Star Trek nerd I’ll be more drawn to your ability to discuss Star Trek than your Harvard MBA. If I’m into cars I’ll be far more interested in your ability to talk engines and such than in your salary. Most men aren’t looking for a provider. We’re looking for someone fun who can make us feel young and appreciated, interesting, and sexy.
Of COURSE you marry a list of traits! What do you think!? Otherwise, you’re marrying ‘just’ for sexual attraction and/or lust, and good luck with that over the long haul!
KATHY LOL! Not in the northeast and Midwest! Take a look around there!!! They are all married to overweight/obese women, which they prefer. And if men weren’t ‘marriage oriented’, you wouldn’t have marriage between a man and a woman STILL numbering in nearly 90% of the World’s population by the age of 60.
Sexual Attraction is on most women’s list of traits, whether she will admit it or not.
The problem is not so much with the list, but what’s on the list, and how inflexible many women are when it comes to that list. “Sense of entitlement” comes to mind.
Many of those things are not a predictor or whether the man will be a good man, good husband, or good friend for life. The reality is that you have bought into the marketing for colleges. To increase enrollment, they sold everyone on the idea that to be somebody, you have to have a diploma. The truth is, there are a whole lot of people who have degrees, and nothing but debt to show for their time in school.
Many women are very much the “Keep up with the Joneses” types. You are very very worried about your friends and family liking and approving of your man. You fear that without a degree, they will see him as a loser.
Well, the reality is, more women earn degrees than men do. And to add to this, men who have degrees don’t necessarily feel it important to marry a woman with a degree, furthering the imbalance. So, you can hold out for a man with a degree, and possibly end up with 50 cats instead, or stop seeing that as a litmus test for whether a man could be a good life partner, and maybe find the love of your life in the process.
But, unless you truly experience a paradigm shift on this matter, I fear for that man, because no man, or woman, wants to be the person who is “settled for.”
Congratulations Helene, I am pleased that you have found what you are looking for. All the very best with it.
@ Kathy: if you’ve read any of Evan’s work, you should know that men don’t care about your accomplishments or intellect–what they do care about is how you make them feel.
But is that really true? Because a good woman can make a man feel like a king and he’ll still kick her aside for something he perceives to be better. That’s what hurts the most when give with an open heart and make him feel like he’s the only thing that matters and it’s just not enough for him. Men do what they want and then often convince themselves that a sincere and loving woman is too good to be true. I’ve had this told to me several times and it hurts.
“That’s what hurts the most when give with an open heart and make him feel like he’s the only thing that matters and it’s just not enough for him.”
This is where you went wrong anonymous.
It not that your making him feel like he’s “the only thing that matters” which is “not enough” … but rather that your making him the only thing that matters is TOO MUCH of a burden.
A man wants to feel he’s “just as important” as other things in your life, but he does NOT want to be the MOST IMPORTANT thing in your life.
When you make a man “the MOST IMPORTANT” thing in your life, he loses respect for you.
He needs to know that you WANT him in your life not that you NEED him in your life.
Any man (or woman) who NEEDS to be the MOST IMPORTANT thing in their S.O.s life does not have an interesting life and is too dependent on their S.O. for too much.
When love crosses the line from gift to dependency, that love is no longer a gift.
Never ever lose yourself in a man. Part of the reason most women love “alpha” men is because of this reason. He maintains his individuality even while in a relationship. Women who lose their individuality in a relationship kills the spark in that relationship.
And there is a fine line between being an individual and being independent. A woman who knows how to navigate that line keeps the relationship strong and something that the man wants to stay in.
I agree Karmic Equation. I am not attracted to that either.
I, too, followed Evan’a advice and am very happy i did.
I have been in a relationship with a man one generation older than me and i am the happiest woman in the world, i am so grateful God sent me this wonderful man!!! Of course he is less educated than me (most people on this earth are), but who said education = intelligence? If anything, intelligence in a human being has often been hindered by his/her education…
My man is smart and generous. His knowledge of art has taught me so much about the beauty of life, nature, and human beings… and his approach to life, as a whole, is extremely inspiring. He has got integrity and he treats me wonderfully… when you encounter sb like this, who care if he does not have a PhD (or a masters, or a BA?)
DITCH tHE CHECKLIST !!! Take time to really meet and get to know the person behind the labels !!!
Again Soul, I am glad that you found what you were looking for. I think however that I am better judge of what is good for me than anyone else is.
Translation…I am stubborn and not open to change. I would prefer to remain unhappy with my unrealistic checklist.
This would be like that guy who is a pig, who insists that he will marry a Playboy Playmate, and he won’t ever settle for anything less. Meanwhile beautiful, worthy women come into his life and he rejects them because they don’t meet his expectations…what he feels he deserves…what he is worth.
Not to mention the fact that even if a guy who meets your expectations comes along, Mr. Wonderful just might end up having an affair with his secretary. Hey…very accomplished men often feel they are of high value and deserve whatever they want also, and often that is his secretary in his bed.
Meanwhile, a great guys are trying to get your attention. Hey lady, this is 2014. Stop listening to your biological programming that was not aware of what 2014 was going to be like. Your biological programming is geared for a time when a woman would be totally dependent on a man for her safety, material wealth, etc… That is no longer the case. Your biological programming is no longer working in your favor and is the root of your unhappiness. If you can’t learn to recognize this and learn to circumvent that obsolete programming, then you are looking at a lifetime of unhappiness. Good luck, you are going to need it.
I’m well-educated and have a great job. While I certainly prefer college-educated men, I have dated numerous men with only high school diplomas. The outcome was the same: they looked to me to be the provider. We had absolutely zero intellectual compatibility. A relationship is likely to last longer if there are shared experiences. A dishwasher with a high school education is not going to be able to relate to any of your experiences in college. Similarly, I’m not famous, so I cannot relate to the lifestyle of celebrities.
I find that it’s much better to date or marry someone with a similar level of education as well as similar views regarding religion, politics and money.
Dishwasher comment made me laugh! But I agree with you 🙂
I like the way you called out a “woman’s obsolete biological programming” here. Easier said than done, but well stated.
I am better judge of what is good for me than anyone else is.
How’s that working out for you? Unless I missed something, you’re still alone.
Mein Gott, Fiona. Is that the way you and your massively expansive educational accomplishments NORMALLY behave?
Exactly! No one should make you feel bad or guilty for having your own set of preferences or requirements for who you date. Why is it ok for men to hold out for their standards, but as a woman, you’re supposed to suck it up and date someone who you may not have as much in common with etc? Sounds like a typical double standard to me.
No double standards. This is about what WORKS, not gender specific. If all men held out for supermodels, the world’s population would die out because only 1% of women look like that. Evidently, everyone has to make compromises. The question is whether your compromises are reasonable or unreasonable. People who end up alone because of their refusal to compromise are pretty unreasonable, given that 100 million people at a time are able to make the compromises necessary to get married.
Yes! Well said Fiona!
I am willing to date a “larger range of women” because if I stuck with some checklist authored from my fantasies I wouldn’t get dates. Lisa Fremont won’t be walking in a door near me any time soon.
What, if anything, did you learn from my response to your question, Fiona?
Because I’m going to suggest that understanding what may be in your blind spot is far more important to you than “how many men think like” the man in your question.
If you were a great judge of what is good for you, you would probably not be asking the question. Most of us are very poor choosers until we get it right.
And people who chose to value intellect more than kindness, or money over character and consistency, often end up choosing educated wealthy men who either don’t want to commit or have trouble staying faithful. Worse, they bemoan their fates by saying “there are no good men” out there, having passed up the good ones for bad ones.
Great reply Evan!!
I dated an intellectual professor with 2 PhD’s. He was critical, arrogant, condescending, and bossy. I felt like I had to constantly “on” but could never quite measure up. And for all the head knowledge this man had, he had no wisdom. Later, I dated a fellow who worked in construction; I felt much more comfortable and able to be myself. Why that one ended I still do not know and probably never will. But I would still pick the guy who didn’t have the “resume”.
This is your view Evan it doesn’t make it a fact. You’re now making a judgment that you know Fiona’s situation/ life story.
Your article fails to recognise what higher education does to change critical thinking. For some, incompatibility in this area can lead to incompatibility in partnerships. Of course, as with all things in life there are exceptions to rules. However, most men I have dated have a lower education than I do and repeatedly this is one of the key factors that leads to our ultimate incompatibility. They have all ended on good terms, they were good men but we weren’t intellectually compatible (something a couple of them told me themselves – not something I ever have or would say to them).
It’s not a matter of superiority, it’s just person to person compatibility.
Hello Fiona #8:
Quite the contrary actually…. you might not be the best judge because of your blind spots (it is the same for everybody) …A little humility goes a long way….
Please receive a warm and friendly hug; I sincerely hope you’ll soon find what you are looking for!
Well Fiona, Evan just posted an excellent reply!!!
hugs
@ Kathy #4: I agree with you! Men are plenty superficial when they are just looking to casually date, which is the norm for them.
Actually, and ironically, it was the DOCTOR (who showed up at a speed-dating event not really looking to date anyone) who told Fiona not to dismiss the manual laborers. I do object to his comment “that career women in their thirties get what they deserve if they don’t” consider all types, and would urge Fiona to consider the source.
However, I wouldn’t rule out a man who ran his own manual labor business, or a self-made man with with less education, a shorter guy, or whatever. I’ve dated PhDs, but one of my smartest exes was a guy with a high school education. It really depends on the person and their interests and curiosity about the world.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having one or two must-haves. If a very intellectual man is important to you, that’s fine, but you my have to compromise on other external traits. Look for the intellect, but don’t neglect the deeper layers of kindness and integrity.
@ Ruby #12
You said, “I do object to his comment “that career women in their thirties get what they deserve if they don’t” consider all types, and would urge Fiona to consider the source.”
He was 100% right. But, that goes for everyone. We all get what we deserve when we try to go against what really works. If a 60 year old man thinks he is going to find love in an 18 year old girl, he gets what he deserves when 5 years later she leaves and takes him to the cleaners in the divorce, if it takes that long.
We could go on and on with that but what he was saying is that if the woman creates an unrealistic checklist, one that excludes the majority of men, then they have only themselves to blame when they are 45 to 50, no marriage, no kids, etc…
The truth is, there are many books and self help seminars for women that are downright damaging to women. I have seen some that actually encourage women to create lists and be so picky that they will never be able to find a man that fits the bill.
Here is a gem from Good Will Hunting. It has to do with the fact that none of us are perfect, but that the imperfections are the gems that make relationships memorable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPOpk-4AqZQ
Hey Rusty,
It is posts like yours that make me so grateful that I have chosen to exit the market at 53. Face it, you guys need us much more than we need you. I take care of people all day long in my job as a health care professional. I don’t want to take care of some effing loser when I come home at night.
Just because men are such losers does not mean we should settle for you. I never had kids (my choice) but I know many women who chose to go to a sperm bank because the quality of men in America is so woefully low. I applaud their choice.
Men do not have a clue in this country.
If that was supposed to make me feel bad, it doesn’t. If my post above yours made you that mad, thank you for doing the men of America a favor by removing yourself from the dating pool. If something in my other posts made you that mad, don’t know what to tell you. Life isn’t about men just killing themselves to please ungrateful women. So long before you were glad you chose to opt out, I had already opted out of marrying unrealistic, ungrateful American woman. Having a 6 out of 10 chance of divorce isn’t my cup of tea. I like better odds.
Oh, and I have to correct you. No, we don’t need you more. Thanks to feminists and how they have transformed this country, we DO NOT need you. We were raised to do our own laundry, cook our own food, clean our own homes, etc.. So there is only one thing we actually need you for…procreation. Sex? Sorry, don’t actually need you for that. Not in a relationship anyway. Yeah for women giving it away for free. Seems sexual liberation was actually to men’s benefit, not women’s. Companionship? We can get that from friends and family. Already covered the stereotypical women’s chores that are now no longer just women’s chores.
In exchange for rejecting you women, we now no longer have to worry that all of that work we put into it will one day be enjoyed by some other man as she divorces, and uses the kids to rape the man, taking his house, and a huge chunk of his money.
Plus…100% less drama. Nobody complaining because we want to do what we want to do. We can play a video game with some friends. We can go hunting, We can go to the races. We can go mountain biking and actually do the fun tails that offer a bit of scarey to get our adrenaline going. We can sleep in on a weekend as long as we want. No honey-do list that we are made to feel guilty about while her honey-do list has seen even less movement.
Face it, so long as women keep giving up sex before marriage, what incentive do men have to get married? Oh hey! I get to marry the woman who has had 30+ partners. No thanks. I like the fact that Asian women, so long as you don’t pick a prostitute, have had very few lovers.
Margaret, I agree with you and empathize b/c I’m going thru the SAME things. Very nice job verbalizing the epidemic of what’s happening with the attitude and quality of men lately!!!!
Wishing all of us good things.
Ann
Margaret, I find your response to be disproportionate to the point Rusty was attempting to make. Perhaps the wrong words, but to verbally assault men as losers–how bitter, how sad, how ill-informed.
Bitter, angry men could make the same assertion about women, for many men feel that women make no effort anymore. To assert that men need women more than men is, frankly, misplaced anger…and it’s dead wrong. Men and women need to be each others’ advocates, to retire the shaming and alarmingly hateful speech that serves no other reason but to destroy some part of another person or a group of people.
I’m sorry for whatever it is that happened to you to motivate you to behave this way, but I am absolutely certain that your roiling vitriol is an exception to the way women consider men to be.
Both Margaret and Rusty have issues with the opposite sex. Both are angry. I wish you both healing on this issue.
Margaret,
“…chosen to exit the market at 53.”
So in 53 years you were unable to meet one “quality” man? Based on your attitude toward men, rather than having exited the market, you likely submitted to your failure at attracting and retaining quality men.
And, if “men do not have a clue in this country”, why didn’t you pursue foreign men instead? Or were you unable to attract and retain them too?
Your comment speaks more of your failures than those of men. As does using the services of a sperm bank for -many- women whom choose to.
@Margaret: your comment made me laugh.
And what has made the quality of men in America so “woefully low”? In my opinion, feminism. Men have been disrespected and emasculated for years by women. What did they expect would happen?
Evan,
I do not understand one thing. You said:
“Alas, men don’t care if you’re taller, richer, smarter, or funnier. We just want you to think that we’re amazing. ”
However, these re the qualities most men look for in a woman, can you explain this??
Maria, I don’t understand your question. Can you please rephrase so I can clarify?
It’s pretty clear what she is asking…men don’t just care that we think they are amazing, that is far too sweeping a statement. Very often do look for “-er”s. Prettier, sexier, hotter, “cooler”, younger, richer, etc., etc. While Evan’s reply to Fiona had many great points to it, the reality is that there is a double standard. I am glad that others brought that up. Men are highly unlikely to give a real chance to women who are older, heavier, out of shape, or who work as laborers…
There is constant chastisement of women to be more open minded, or even to “settle” yet not a lot advising men to do either, so in general, very much a double standard. Settling is unfair to all parties. Open-mindedness is great, but not to the point where one disregards personal feelings solely to be open-minded. Just reaffirming what others have said. All that aside, she wants you to elaborate on your quote 😉
@Mis
Settling is the wrong word, because it implies that a person is giving up what they can have, and taking less than what they can have.
In reality, people want what they can’t have, and then “settle” for what they can have. Settle in quotations because they aren’t actually settling.
Evan has often said things such as if what you are doing is working for you, keep doing it, and it doesn’t matter who you want to date, it is who wants to date you…that is your dating pool.
So the idea here is that if you aren’t getting what you want in dating, you are likely wanting what you can’t have. I really want Jennifer Lawrence, but if she won’t have me, I guess I will just have to “settle” for one of you ordinary women. See how that works?
Maybe instead of saying that we settled, a better phrase would be that we woke up to reality and accepted somebody we could actually have.
That said, we often have very ridiculous standards and lists. If we aren’t getting what we want, the best thing to do is to take a long, hard look at that list, and start dropping the more ridiculous items. Maybe you can accept a guy who has less education, or doesn’t have hair, etc…
And one last thought. Why would a woman be advised to date a man with less education, while a man would not be advised the same thing? Easy. Women are earning 140 degrees for every 100 that men earn. Do the math. There aren’t enough men with degrees to go around for women with degrees. Add to this the fact that most men do not require a woman to have a degree, in order for him to date her. So not only do they not need to be given the same advice…the fact that they already do this means even fewer men with degrees for women with degrees.
I think the author was trying to point out that men are more concerned with being respected and admired by their partners than more physical attributes. For most men, physical appearance, intelligence (within reason), and personal wealth are going to come second to the feeling of being loved by someone we can respect or love. A man isn’t going to continue dating a millionaire supermodel if she’s constantly mocking/emasculating him.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and get Fiona’s back, at least a little. The doctor at the speed dating event who lectured Fiona sounded like an ass. A professional woman in her thirties does NOT need to date a service washer at a launderette if she doesn’t want to. And no disrespect to the service washer, but odds are, they don’t have much in common for all sorts of valid reasons. Socio- economics influence our cultural experiences, and consequently our interests. The things we have in common with others is what adds to our attraction of others. The doctor implied that she didn’t have the room to be picky in this department, based on her age. It was ridiculous of him at best. That aside, Fiona, don’t be afraid to date someone without a college degree. There are PLENTY of good men who are motivated, successful, intelligent, kind and sexy without that piece of paper. Soul is right: ditch the labels and get to know someone as a person before you write them off.
The problem with checklists is, it’s so difficult to find someone who matches all the criteria, that by the time you do, you’re ready to overlook this man’s personality flaws, just because he was so hard to come by and you may never find another MBA six feet tall, no extra weight, your exact age, that lives five miles from you and makes six figures. So you try to ignore the facts that he still hasn’t set his divorce date with his ex-wife, or that he’s a control freak, or that he is leaning the very opposite of you in politics and religion and you argue about that each time you meet, or that he’s a pretentious douche, or that he is boring as hell and you have nothing in common. (That last one, happens more often than you’d imagine.)
The first man I dated after my divorce, checked off every item on my list, up to and including the love of classical music. He also told me a story on our third date about how, when he walks his kids to school in the morning and sees someone run a stop sign, he jumps out in front of that car, stops it, and yells at the driver while his kids stand on the sidewalk and watch. Same date, he brought me home, parked in the driveway with his engine running, his headlights shining into my neighbor’s bedroom windows (at midnight), and tried to make out with the car still in drive and his foot on the brake. Charming. I stuck it out with him for another month because I was afraid I wouldn’t find another, six-foot-tall, liberal agnostic who’s working on his PhD. Then I finally came to my senses and ran off to date an old friend of mine, who never went to college, wasn’t liberal, didn’t like classical music, and carried about a hundred pounds of extra weight, and had an awesome time.
That got me thinking. I realized that matching every item on my checklist is not a guarantee that the man will have something in common with me or that we’ll have a good time together. Now my approach is that it is okay to have some kind of a checklist, but they aren’t carved in stone, and slight deviations from the list on one or more items are okay. Nobody says to date a bum off the street. But an intelligent, successful man who hasn’t completed his college degree is perfectly okay.
The man I’m seeing now, while exceeding my expectations education-wise, definitely missed a few items on my list, and I on his. (He probably hadn’t counted on dating an immigrant, for one thing!) But we have a great time together and that’s what matters.
Being too picky gets you picked over…not saying that you shouldn’t have standards, but the standards should be realistic considering all factors involved…
My husband has less education than I do, is from a lower-social-class neighborhood, is much less sophisticated in many ways than I am, is less ambitious, has no interest in current events or the broader world around him, isn’t well-read, has siblings who are unemployed or low-skilled workers — and yet, he and I are perfect together. He treats me like gold, makes me laugh and draws me out of my head, where I would prefer to live most of the time. We’ll be married 7 years this coming New Year’s Day. (Time flies, huh, Evan?) Evan is SO right about the “checklist” nonsense. Fiona, you might want to read Lori Gottlieb’s excellent book, “Marry Him” if you are at all interested in getting married and having a family one day. It’s a real wake-up call for us “perfectionists.”
@2, Helene, good for you, congrats! We’ve have a similar experience. As a result of Evan’s thoughts on broadening our horizons, I made a concerted effort to date all kinds of different men…from really good looking, to highly educated and successful and/or older. What that did is allow me to more clearly see why my current boyfriend is a good fit for me and why all those men were all good men, just not good partners/boyfriends–for whatever reason. He is a professional, I have a BA, he never went to college. I’m more interested in the world around me, he’s not, but can still talk intelligently, which I like. We both like sports, etc., etc. I really get this concept that no one is perfect…there is no perfect man, and there’s no perfect for me…there are just good men who can make good boyfriends that we can partner with perhaps in marriage.
If you want someone that’s more educated,. Be careful what you wish for and good luck!
P.S. I think that doctor saw exactly what you were about, and challenged you on it. He did you a favor 🙂
I agree with KATHY4 ” Men are likely more willing to date a larger range of women because they are not as marriage oriented — they will date for sex, or short-term reasons more often than women will — 2) They are fussy in different ways! — They prefer thinner, more attractive and youthful women, and do not care so much about education and career, because they are not as concerned with intellectual interaction””
Evan says men just want to date women who make them feel good about themselves. Hmm, now if a size 16 woman thought a man was wonderful I doubt she would make him feel wonderful. What would make him feel wonderful would be a a very attractive, size 8-10 woman at least 10, maybe 20 years younger.
I’d agree, though I would not condemn it. Truth is, if the other person doesn’t turn you on, it’s hard for anyone with a sex drive to want to be more than friends. Goes for men and women, even if what turns us on works differently.
A man’s sex drive doesn’t call for perfection, but a fat woman who treats me like a king still doesn’t turn me on. Can’t change that, and I won’t apologize for it. Same for a woman much older than I am, just doesn’t work. I could certainly be friends with a fat or old woman, but it’s not going to work as a relationship. In turn, I wouldn’t expect a woman to find me attractive if I let myself get fat and grew out a neckbeard. What kind of entitled jerk would I have to be to expect women to ignore my neckbeard and love me for my brain, when there are so many equally-smart men without repellant grooming habits?
You have to optimize what you’re working with – either find people who are into what you look like, or improve what you look like. A solid resume just doesn’t turn a man on, and there is nothing wrong with that (ask me in a few decades whether that changes after his sex drive dies; I’m not in a position to know yet).
[email protected] MaccAodh! Best comment ever!
I do understand what you are saying Evan and I am a bit flexible. Just about every man is taller than me so that is not so much of an issue and I don’t mind someone being a bit less successful, a bit less intellectual, a bit less well educated, a bit older (even all in the same package). However, it would be hard for me to accept anyone that didn’t at least meet those criteria. I do not value intellect over kindness – I do think that both are important. Nor do I think earnings are more important than character but I do think being able to have a reasonable standard of living is important. How flexible does one really have to be before feeling that you have settled for a man or a life you don’t really want?
@Catherine – I would think that it goes without saying that a man (or a woman) has to find his partner physically attractive in order to forge a relationship, so your point is kind of moot.
Give a man identical twin sisters and he’s going to choose the one who is fun, easygoing, and makes him feel the best about himself, not the one who is constantly criticizing him for his flaws.
@Fiona – “How flexible does one really have to be…?” Well, since there’s a lid for every pot, if you haven’t found a lid, you’re either not trying on enough or dismissing one that fits. Once I learned to let go of my list (East Coast, Jewish, liberal, Ivy League), I was able to find a life that I DID want. You don’t seem to be able/willing to do the same. So all I can say is that you should keep on dating and consider the wisdom of the women who posted on this thread…
Hi again, Evan: Baloney! I am living proof they don’t like ‘fun and outgoing’. They compliment fun and outgoing, they don’t marry it. MY personal experience.
You’re right. Most men prefer boring and introverted to fun and outgoing. I stand corrected.
I see the struggle you have in a lot of women who went to college and got a degree greater than a two year degree.
The problem is this: In college you’re taught from a syllabus, an assignment checklist, a course dossier. They’re used to thinking in a robotic, functional, and logical way about every little thing that they used to do, that it is all they know.
You have to ask yourself, is talking to your husband who has a degree greater than or equal to yours, about things that happened 12-15 years ago that have no bearing on your life now, over a 15$ breakfast more important to you that sharing a wholesome breakfast with a man who is more interconnected with the world and can produce more meaningful interactions other than;
“Hey honey, my old frat brothers that I used to bang sorority sisters with are coming into town, you know, Jack and Brian.”
“Yeah, the guys that tried to grab your ass and throw you into the pool during that wet t-shirt contest.”
“Can they stay for a couple days while they’re in town.”
No one is asking you to lower your standards, but you have to understand if your standards are based in reality, or the magical land of whothefuckknowswhere. You’re a woman. An aging one. You don’t fart rainbows, nor do you shit golden bricks. Past the age of 35 you can’t have children or start a family in a healthy or safe way. You’re beauty fades rapidly after your mid twenties. If you want a quality man, not a man who values money over your happiness, perhaps you should ground yourself in reality. Otherwise you should use that fancy degree you have and buy a ton of cats.
Can’t figure out if you’re the average guy mad at women for not picking you, or the hot guy who scoffs at women “beneath” him. Give us some context.
ps. why is this woman going to speed dating events that attract men without degrees? I would think most speed dating companies offer a variety of events according to age groups, interests, educational level etc
Why would they do that? You are looking at it from your perspective only. Remember…men don’t care if you have a degree. So would men be happy if they paid a company to attend an event and only educated women were there, and he didn’t feel any connection with any of them?
It seems the problem is that women are looking for somebody just like herself, but men are not looking for somebody just like himself. Women are looking for somebody who meets them on every level. Men are looking for somebody who compliments them on certain levels.
Women really are at a disadvantage. Their biological programming tells them to test every male and if he is not equal to her or superior to her on every level, he is unworthy. This programming serves a purpose. She has limited opportunities to get her genes into the next generation, so her programming tells her to make the most of those limited opportunities. Get the best she can. Those damaging seminars I mentioned above tell you to make those checklists. They tell you to approach getting a man the way you approach every other challenge. But that is horrible advice. Checklists make it harder to find a good man, not easier.
See, like I said, women are at a disadvantage, and those seminars do not address that disadvantage, they make the problem worse. The problem is that men don’t play by your rules, and the never will. You might go to lunch with a few of your equally accomplished female friends. An attractive male waiter about the same age as you might be the one who waits on you. He might find you very attractive, and smile warmly at you, in a manner that invites interaction. Your likely reaction? “Fat chance loser.” At best, if he is very very very attractive, you might want to slip him your number on the sly and keep an affair with him a secret, or you will make sure your friends know that it is just about sex because he is so fine, but there is no future because you are too good for him.
However, completely reverse the situation with single accomplished male at lunch with equally accomplished male friends, and an attractive female waiter seems open to interaction, he will be more than OK with getting her number.. Might even ask for it in front of his friends, and ACTUALLY BE PROUD that his friends saw him score the number. He isn’t going to be embarrassed to bring her around his friends if he starts dating. He isn’t going to feel like he has to make excuses for her lack of accomplishments.
So women really are at a disadvantage to men. They broke down the corporate boardroom doors, smashed the glass ceiling, and now graduate with college degrees at a higher rate than men. So right there, everything else being equal, they are at a disadvantage. More women with degrees than men means that some women won’t get a man as educated if they all find mates.
But men don’t ply by women’s rules. So now you can take a huge chunk of those men with degrees and remove them because they don’t require a woman to have a degree, so they as, or more likely to marry the waitress as a woman with a college degree. Look at any online dating site, and you will see that men often don’t list any educational requirements, while women almost always do.
To #21.1
Went straight to the point you are so right.
There are so many good, intelligent men out there who may not be highly educated (“book smart”) but are very street smart. And street smart men are just as awesome and sometimes even more intelligent than the book smart ones.
Character and spirit are the qualities that should top any checklist, if you choose to have one. And if you judge the book by it’s cover you’re likely passing up many good men who would have treasured and adored you in a way that your fantasy-inspired alpha, well-educated, well-earning man never could.
Well for once we can agree 🙂
Aside from the “laundry guy” there are plenty of professions full of intelligent good earning men that don’t have bachelors degree’s. All of these men are not idiots because they didn’t go to college but they may have went to trade school. Just as every person that does have a degree isn’t intelligent or have common sense. Hundreds of thousands of men!! Some (not all) of these men may be great matches for Fiona or others like her.
Mechanics
Electricians
Plumbers
Carpenters
Construction workers
Contractors
Heating/AC
And the list goes on………………….. and I know they’ll always be snobby women that say “Ewwwww, those men get dirty at work and do manual labor”. Yep, they do while making a good living some 80-100K.
I’ve been putting I have a bachelor’s degree for 3 yrs now in my profile even though I don’t. (Mainly because everyone “below” me at my profession has one and after years of being honest and putting “some college” and never knowing how many were’nt returning my emails because of it.) Not one woman I’ve dated from “some college” to “Master’s Degreed” teachers etc… in the last 3 yrs has ever asked me about it or known the wiser. NOT ONE!
I was married to an English major that didn’t like to get his hands dirty. I come from a more blue collar type family, so his mother never thought I was good enough for him. After we divorced, I did earn my bachelor’s and master’s, but not because I wanted to out man men, but as a single parent, I wanted to be able to get to a level in my career that I could provide for our kids on my own. He has since gone on to marry a PhD who leads him. I guess it works for them, but I am perfectly fine dating a man with or without degrees or letters after his name. There are good and bad actors with and without a college education.
I’m a lawyer, a partner at a law firm. In my mid 30s. But I was raised very poor in a blue collar family and people, men are often fooled by who they think I am. The professions you list above, make very decent livings, particularly plumbers and most don’t have the loans professionals do. I cannot do what a plumber does, or mechanic or electrican and I don’t know the first thing about construction work, I NEVER had an education requirement or income. For years I dated men of all backgrounds and educations, but it did not work and do you want to know why? The men, not me, the men. They were insecure. They constantly tried to find ways to feel superior. They put me down, they competed with me. It was horrible. And it happened time and time again. So you know what I won’t do it. If you lied about your degree and I found out, and I would because I background check all my dates you would not make it past the second date because I don’t date liars.
Your right, most of my education came through experience and military schooling. Funny how some women put such emphasis on a Masters degree. Ok, so what.. Real on the job skills and training can be very lucrative and can pay salaries more then average master degreed career. My home is paid for on 11 acres, have no debt and retired early at 58. Why? because I can! Now play in a couple bands and take vacations. I gave up on the entitled professional women…better off without them..lol
@Fiona, I don’t think you have a ridiculous list of wants. Especially as you seem more flexible about some things such as height, age and looks (I’m assuming on the last). I would suggest (and this is what I am doing) to just keep engaging in life (online and off) and keep tweaking things that matter less to you. I have a well educated and successful friend your age and she didn’t even care about the things that you care about and still struggled until this year. Even people who don’t care about successful men often struggle. She is now seriously dating an ex who has been a good friend for many years. The dating non-college men issue isn’t really relevant for me. I’m not sure of the age of the other commenters or where they live. Living in a highly educated area if I knocked on 10 random doors I would be hard pressed to find someone without a college degree. Luckily it is the bare minimum around here (that doesn’t mean everyone actually is a professional though). I read this blog not to do an entire overhaul on my view (I don’t think Evan did that either), but to question some of my wants and try to open my mind on some of them. I definitely am less picky that I was 5 years ago, although some of my wants are going to stay.
@Fiona
“How flexible does one really have to be before feeling that you have settled for a man or a life you don’t really want?”
I think you need to ask yourself if you had to choose between having a man who makes you feel good about yourself or having a life you feel good about, but not both, which would you choose?
Answer that honestly and you should have a clearer vision of what’s important to you and gameplan for that.
There is no wrong answer. But you really do need to be honest with yourself about what is more important to you. Life or lifestyle?
Well if I was at such an event and a doctor bought me a drink I’d be telling him I was having a great evening and enjoying meeting new people. And did he have any single friends who WERE looking to date?
Soul # 7
You said: “of course he is less educated than me (most people on this earth are)”
And then you tell Fiona (#11) that “a little humility goes a long way…”
Ha, that made me chuckle 🙂
JB #26
Women haven’t asked because they probably figured a 50-something year old man ( or whatever age you’re using on your profile these days) would not be lying about his degree. The fact that you’ve run across women that have given you the benefit of the doubt doesn’t mean that you should feel proud of getting over on them.
I am attracted to men with good character – but that is not receiving much airplay on this channel.
All people are attracted to people with good character. But if that were the ONLY reason people dated, then there should be NO pictures on ANY dating site… and you would already be in a relationship. There are plenty of fat ugly men with great character looking to have a relationship with you.
Celia! You are so right! Not that it matters, but just wanted to add an “amen” to a most important point.
I’ll chime in here as another woman who’s found happiness with a less-educated man. My husband is a truck driver with a bachelor’s degree (I have a master’s) The difference in education is just about completely irrelevant. He’d intelligent, a great conversationalist, and we never run out of things to talk about. I think it’s a mistake for any woman to rule a man out just based on his education. There’s way more to a great relationship than having a lot of things in common.
@Goldie #17: Your first paragraph summed up exactly how i feel about the list. I am so trying to fight my willingness to overlook personality flaws just because he meets most of the criteria. But it’s so dang hard! Whenever i put my foot in the door, there will always be this annoying little voice in my head saying ‘Well heck, you aren’t perfect either. So what if he is a control freak/arrogant snob/wise-ass etc’. I always end up feeling such remorse.
‘(He probably hadn’t counted on dating an immigrant, for one thing!)’
Ugh, i SO get what you mean by that! I’m happy it worked for you, but in my case… not so much. Or even better: not at all. It is so annoying. Every time i find a ‘decent’ guy (as in, someone who matches most of my things on my really reasonable checklist) and then he finds out i’m an eastern European immigrant, he either:
a)pulls away (although he was initially attracted to me)
b)immediately starts having the ‘my place or your place’ attitude (if you know what i mean).
This makes me so frustrated! I hate the awkwardness that always follows! What bothers me even more is that i haven’t figured out a way to deal with this yet! If guys in college behave like this, what should i expect in a few years time? Grrrrrrr!
I simply don’t understand that, but then, I can understand that not all men are the same. While I was very interested in getting out of my hometown to see the world, my brother in law actually passed up an opportunity to have his own business because he didn’t want to leave home. He would be happy if he never saw another state. I hated the fact that growing up, I hadn’t seen much of the world…my state (Ohio) and two neighboring states (Michigan and Pennsylvania). Now I’ve seen many many countries on every continent, and also seen 42 of the states. I’ve climbed Mt. Fuji, and Masada…places I never thought I would see as a child.
A woman telling me that she was an immigrant would actually be a good thing. Different cultures would not bother me. It would be about how we connected as people, two individuals. Maybe some guys simply fear what they don’t know, while for me, it piques my curiosity. One cat prefers hiding under the bed, in his favorite and familiar spot, while another sits in the window, wishing he could get out and explore. If you find a lot of men rejecting you for that reason, it might be odd luck that keeps putting you in proximity to the cats that want to hide under the bed, instead of the window cats.
Goldei & Ileana
Not to go too off-topic, but I’m curious: Can either of you please tell me what the big deal about dating an immigrant is?
I think the stumbling point for many of us, especially in online dating, is what is being too choosy and what is selecting out what you simply don’t find attractive? Sometimes I get so caught up in ‘not being picky’ that I look at the men who message me online and think ‘Really? Do I have to correspond with all of them?’. Where do you draw the line? Going out with men ‘just ’cause’ is when online dating gets old and frustrating really darn fast. I’m sure that men have a much easier time picking which women to write too without the social guilt of being acused of being too picky. Let’s face it, anyone who has married for love has done so because they picked one person above others.
Like Fiona, I’m also an attorney. If it happens that I’m dating another attorney, my position would be “I’m dating so-and-so, who happens to be an attorney.” My take would be the same if my significant other (assuming I had one, of course…LOL) were an accountant, an artist, a receptionist, a corporate executive, and so on.
The point is, at least for me, is that one’s occupation is one part of the person that I would be dating. I would be looking to choose the person, not their job.
Hope my three cents helps here.
“Why are women expected to date men with a lower educational level?”
They are not expected to, but they must to if they hold any degree above a Bachelor’s. That’s the logical consequence of:
1. equal opportunity of education for both genders, and the increase in number of women getting a higher education compared to men,
2. not enough single men with higher degrees available in the 35+ dating pool.
Finding a marriage-minded man who is also able to build and nurture a marriage is already difficult enough to not complicate things further with degrees, job titles, and income level requirements.
The best time for a woman to enter a marriage with a peer in terms of degree is while in the process of getting that advanced degree herself. After graduation, marriage-minded men with those rare advanced degrees are married or about to be, therefore older single women MUST change their expectations and requirements if they do want to partner up. It does not make sense to keep 28-year-old-style requirements while dating in one’s late thirties. When older, it’s time to be extremely flexible with the checklist while much more purposeful with the courtship process and timeline.
Ileana
be flexible in the stuff that doesn’t matter. For me that would be how he dresses, whether he has hair, his job, education, interests, politics (and no that doesnt equal date a nazi) , income, popularity.
stick to what does matter. For me it would be his religion, values, how he treats people, how he treats me.
the problem with the list is that as you excitedly tick off job, height, whatever, you can miss some serious red flags. And no I’m not saying poor fat stupid people are nicer. It’s that you may be focusing on the wrong things.
and be careful of seductive charming men. Making you feel good (temporarily ) is not the same as being a good person.
what is about these men that attract you. They sound like twits to me.
Oh Jennifer I don’t “feel” like I’m getting over anything on anyone I’m just pointing out how irrelevant it all really is. You either like and are attracted to someone or your not, assuming you actually meet them(like Fiona did at her speed Dating). It’s got nothing to do with degree’s. Honesty and integrity???….now that’s a different story.
😉
Mickey I would have thought that most women would see you as a catch so long as you treat them well. Where are you going wrong? Unless you are chasing supermodels, I don’t get it.
I think one thing underlying the original question was that successful women seem to think that the currency of dating = money, degrees, job, and other worldly accomplishments. We tend to look for those things in guys; and we typically think that those same traits are what should make us desirable as well. However, what I have learned from Evan is that we are totally wrong about this! The currency of dating is actually = making the other person feel good, happy, and cared for etc. Successful guys have already figured this out; it is successful women who have a hard time accepting this reality (I know I did!). But, if you can shift your attention to the quality of your relationship (rather than the characteristics of your man), you can choose a relationship that will make you much happier. I mean, who doesn’t want to be with someone who makes you feel good, happy, and cared for? That’s the best!
Fiona: The problem is that if many women see me as a catch, I haven’t heard about it lately. But as I said previously, admittedly, I’m also a little too jaded to care about it now.
@Ruby #34: “Not to go too off-topic, but I’m curious: Can either of you please tell me what the big deal about dating an immigrant is?”
My two cents, being also a Europeean immigrant… Dating an immigrant is no big deal. Plenty of men love how exotic it feels to have sex with an attractive woman who speaks English with an accent. Especially when it’s French : ) Marrying an immigrant is not for everyone though. Possible cultural differences, differently-sounding English over the long-term, long/expensive flights to visit family abroad, etc are all inconveniences to some people. Others are excited about the open-mindedness that such experience entails, the incredible language skills, the option of emigrating to Europe, etc.
I have not found my background being a big issue in general given everything I bring to the relationship table, but I certainly have had to sort out the men who would have intended to use me to get their exotic notch on their bed post. Making sure that – on top of being marriage-minded – they would see my background as another positive for the long-term was key in moving forward with the right man.
I don’t think a man needs to hold a degree in order for me to date him, however, in my generation you really have had to go to college to get a middle-class job. My father did not, he worked in a factory and made a decent living. Now a high school diploma usually means minimum wage or close to it. I am not so romantic that I believe the nicest, kindest man would be a great husband if there was always a financial struggle and I chose to work for non-profits so although not low-wage I certainly don’t make the kind of money to be a bread winner.
So if I met an amazing union plumber I would consider him but having grown up with those men, I know most of them married at 24 and already have 4 kids in my neck of the woods, so they are less available than their well-educated counterparts.
Fiona, I think many of us here really do feel for (& with!) you. (Okay… so there’s no such thing as to “feel with you” but you know what I mean, right?) I love this topic; many of my girlfriends, in a variety of countries, are facing the same challenges.
And, I must add, that doctor sounds like a total ass. He was probably a nerd who couldn’t get dates through college and his 20s and now that he’s finally an MD with ladies throwing themselves at him, he wants to kick the kind of attractive, bright women he feels might have rejected him in his youth. Imagine if someone had said to him, well if you don’t give the over-weight, gnarly-toothed women a shot, you get what you deserve! He’d have been insulted and cross, no doubt.
I want to share some random thoughts based on your letter, comments and previous posts.
1. Keep dating. You don’t have to go out with guys who utterly repel you but do accept the occasional coffee and dinner invitations with men who mightn’t seem like Mr Right right off the bat but at least make interesting-enough conversation, have a nice smile and seem kind. I maintain that being a good date is a skill that improves with practice and there’s an ease and comfort that we can lose when we sit out of the game, waiting for a date with someone close to an ideal.
2. Educated or reasonably high-earning is easier to come by than educated and high-earning. I know plenty of contractors who earn 6-figures (US$) and plenty of PhDs who don’t. The dream is to have both, but consider which is truly more important to you. Even then, you might well not even find a mate who fulfills it. And remember: high-earning people can fritter away all their money and there are an awful lot of educated fools.
3. I fell in love with several sweet guys who were kind and marriage-oriented but who didn’t have much money. One trouble with these relationships was that these lovely men slowly became comfortable living at my standard and expecting that I should provide it for them. The gratitude of Wow, I cannot believe how sweet you are to take me on a beach vacation! eventually became This room doesn’t even have an ocean view and Florida is tackier than California and next time we should not consider staying anywhere that isn’t a 5-star hotel. You can imagine how much I enjoyed that!
And yet, isn’t this what many women have done to men through the years and, in different ways, continue to do? Rather than be grateful when a man can provide us with nice things, we demand it. One of the reasons some of my high-earning guy friends go for relatively uneducated, low-income women is that they imagine that they will be delighted to live at a certain level that he can afford rather than expect it. (Of course, I remind my guy friends that entitlement knows no socio-educational boundaries! But for some reason, when they see a woman who can already buy her own house — rightly or wrongly — they believe that she won’t be as touched as the girl who lives in a basement studio rental flat when he can provide a nice home for their family).
We women with our own money have to realise we’re fighting this negative stereotype. Fiona, when you mention wanting to be able to take time off work to stay home with a child/children while not taking any kind of dip in lifestyle, realise that some men will interpret that as entitled, I deserve talk.
3. I have a friend with an advanced degree (earning mid 5-figure salary as an associate professor) who wanted to marry a good guy who could afford to let her stay home with the kids. She eventually did, but she was 43; by then it was too late for her to have biological children and he doesn’t want to adopt.
I have 2 other friends who wouldn’t settle for guys who they didn’t find appealing and went the sperm bank route; one is pregnant and the other has a gorgeous 2 year-old.
Both of these options are great in my books and show that sometimes you want to be married-with-kids but can be overjoyed with one or the other. Try to remain flexible both in looking for a mate and also what other options exist “out there” for bright, capable women. No one owes us anything but we deserve to find ways to make ourselves happy.
@Henriette
You touched on a great point about the “haven’t we done this to men all these years”. Its interesting because most men haven’t had the standards that women have when it comes to picking a mate. When they are the ones that have the job, money, and education – they look for the mate that can be domestic and makes them feel good.
As one of my female colleagues put one time “we have become the men that our moms wanted to marry”. There isn’t anything wrong with that, but why not change your objective for the mate. If you are the one with the advanced degree/money/etc why not look for someone that makes you feel good/is attractive.
I just don’t understand why a person would try to stick to the same ideals that existed before the gender gap started closing.
henriette,
Damn lady you NAILED it!
“. . .that doctor sounds like a total ass. He was probably a nerd who couldn’t get dates through college and his 20s and now that he’s finally an MD with ladies throwing themselves at him, he wants to kick the kind of attractive, bright women he feels might have rejected him in his youth.”
And yet, isn’t this what many women have done to men through the years and, in different ways, continue to do? Rather than be grateful when a man can provide us with nice things, we demand it.
Reminds me how one of the guys in my medical school class (a total sweetheart of a guy BTW) told me how upsetting it was that girls who would have ignored him a year before would now aggressively hit on him. I really feel for some of these guys. How horrible to wonder if the person you’re dating is interested in you as a person, or the lifestyle your job can provide them. While medical school did nothing for my dating life, in the way of more men being interested in me, at least I know the ones that come around are into me and not my job.
As for the doctor Fiona had a run in with, he was a judgmental ass. And Fiona had better manners than him. He apparently wasn’t interested in any of the women there, yet Fiona didn’t tell him he was too picky and should consider dating women he didn’t find attractive.
Some of my male colleagues (just a few, thank goodness) have a strange resentment towards, and are awkward around the female docs, and other women in “high” places, like the hospital attorneys and administrators. They do look for any opportunity to be a jerk. I have no idea where this comes from; mommy issues; feeling their role in society has been usurped; just being nasty people in general? I and the other women usually just try to not engage in any conversations with them that aren’t strictly about work. Anyway, a few of them have gotten divorced from their wives (all non-working, little to no career training or education) over the years, and then they just rage about how they were screwed in court and lost “their” house and “their” bank accounts.
I would tell Fiona though, to choose to look at the obnoxious doc’s “advice” as a gift. Since it was so harshly delivered, it resonates on a certain level, and you can’t ignore it. Fiona, I know you said that you could move on your standards little bit, and I wonder what that means. Would you consider dating an accountant who works from home, a mid-level government employee, or a teacher? How about an self-employed master carpenter, a police officer, or an artist? What would you think of a man who owns and manages commercial property, but is twenty years older than you with teenaged kids? I ask because I know women physicians that are happily married to all those men listed above. Look at the freedom that your career and the income it brings gives you to choose a man based solely on the criteria that he makes you happy? And that police officer, who met his ER doctor wife when he brought in a drunk who had a broken arm? Damn hot! I’m talking underwear model hot 😉
Maybe for 6 months you can try something a little different: Say yes to dates with men that are a little out of your comfort zone. Keep in mind, it’s just one date at a time, no one is expecting you to marry any one. See how it goes. you may be surprised.
@Ruby #34: “Not to go too off-topic, but I’m curious: Can either of you please tell me what the big deal about dating an immigrant is?”
I know you didn’t ask me the question but here is my opinion anyway! Dating an immigrant is not a big deal but if you expect the relationship to evolve into marriage, it is a big commitment for some. It means potentially maintaining the traditions of two cultures and some people just aren’t up for that. These things come up even while dating and in my experience there are those who prefer to play it safe and stick with what they know.
I don’t have any peer-reviewed studies to back up my opinion but I believe much of the desire/need to have a partner with certain attributes is cultural. I’ve known many woman who were raised to believe that husbands are providers and the more he can provide in the way of status and money, the better the catch he is. I’ve known some women who were told to find a man who makes you happy. I’ve known many more women who were to to find a doctor or a lawyer.
The pressure to marry well doesn’t necessarily end as women get older. I’ve had several women complain that their female friends immediately focus on their dates occupation and income. As a man, the questions I get tend to focus on attractiveness, age, age of children, and only occasionally occupation. There is some subtle and not so subtle peer pressure for both men and women to have a trophy partner. The only distinction being that the criteria is different for a trophy wife than a trophy husband.
Perhaps some of us just care too much what others will think of our choice rather than searching for what is truly important. I’m just as guilty as the rest — perhaps I’m just seeking validation when I’m so eager to talk about my date with the 32 year old hottie but rarely mention my dates with the 45 -55 year old ladies.
The great thing about this blog is it forces a little self analysis — the bad thing is that what I see about myself isn’t always too nice.
In reference to the blog post and your response I believe you’re totally missing her point. She (the lady who wrote or emailed you) only made those traits she listed “super specific” to make a point.
Men also have a checklist, they just aren’t that aware of it. It goes something like this: Much younger, submissive, giddy, etc., etc – This is with the exception of professional or more evolved men. These men are typically already married at around that age range so they aren’t available. Women who seek careers over marriage instead of careers end up with a choice of what’s leftover from the pool of men who don’t typically have their “crap” together.
If women were as picky as men say they are, there would be no stories of women crying over repeatedly being cheated on, domestic violence and the like. Women really aren’t picky enough and probably put up with Waaaayyyy more than they should just to be in a relationship because its the “thing to do”. This is why intelligent, professional women have less choices because they realize that they can survive without a relationship and value themselves and their time.
Every time I speak to a woman who’s been married for over ten years and I hear what she had to go through to maintain that relationship, I cringe.
No, I’m not a man hater. I love men and I had a really, really GREAT one in my life at one time. But I really think the cause of this issue is the fact that career minded women simply realize they have choices and are exercising them, and with choices come consequences and sometimes those consequences may mean being alone a little while longer until you meet another decent human being.
Fusee #37, well-said! I was trying to articulate the same idea, but did so poorly.
@Joe – I do read and hang on Evan’s every word. I just disagreed with the demographic analysis he did on this one. I know how you make a man feel is super important, I also know that a mans tolerance for bad behavior is often proportional to the hotness of the woman who is dishing it out. Men want pretty as much as woman want accomplished. the problem is that pretty wanes after 40 and accomplishment increases. Many men trade up for a younger model at this point, right? No judgments, this is the law of the jungle.
I think that it is important to be open-minded, and not exclude anyone based on their education level or income. It’s funny, I have dated rocket scientist turned brain-surgeon, and I have dated Mr. Fix-it. Fix-it was sexy as hell to touch and look at and brain surgeon was incredibly interesting to talk to. In the end, I dated sexy longer even though it was aimless, and I wish I had had enough attraction to brain-surgeon to get the party started. The reality is that having someone you respect and can relate to is what matters. I think that Fiona in this particular post entertained the conversation with that bitter dude at the event too long. I bet he wasn’t sexy!
a man does not need a degree to prove that he is intelligent. However, he must be street smart. After giving my recent guy a chance, it was the lack of street smarts and financial responsibility that made me get rid of him. THOSE are the valid reasons to get rid of a guy
Catherine at 23. Maybe the organisers could not find enough well educated, high achieveing men. so they had to expand their net to include the not so well educated. Which makes sense seeing that women are more highly represented in higher education. Does it mean men are stupid ? Or maybe smart enough not to want to go to college.
Intelligence is what matters. Some people aren’t as good at jumping through hoops.
Education means you’re more educated, not necessarily smarter or more intelligent.
Intelligence can be measured in MANY ways.
Peace!
Evan,
I wanted to understand better when you said that men are not looking for taller, richer, smarter, or funnier women. All they care is for women to think these men are amazing.
So my question is: How is this possible if all they look for in a woman are within those characteristics. They love fun, tall and smart women.
That’s why I didn’t understand your question, Maria. It’s built on a false premise. Men care about how you make them feel, above all. Qualities that are indicative of how you make him feel are feminine, optimistic, confident, understanding, self-aware, trusting, supportive, easygoing, and playful. Funny is a bonus. Educated is a bonus. Rich is a bonus (and maybe a negative if she has to work many hours to stay rich). Tall is irrelevant.
And that’s my point: YOU’RE looking for tall, rich and educated. We’re looking for the adjectives I mentioned above. Plus “attractive”, which goes without saying.
Evan So why dont mean date the over weight middle age women who will make them feel good? Even if she is a waitress single mother living in a one bedroom apartment? I love the myth that men have NO list. Tall, blonde, younger, educated women dont hurt for dates. I knew a guy who friends made fun of the fact he was dating a waitress. SHE had nothing to offer and they asked why he was dating her (seriously). Let’s be real. YOU believe men have a right to have a list. It is just a natural right of being male. BUT women should be grateful for the fact she has a person who is male in her life. When men loose the list women will loose the list.
Sounds like your friend needs new friends. I have never even heard of anyone I know going through anything like that. Not one time has anyone I’ve ever known, cared what the woman did for a living. Not care in that manner. And many of the men I’ve known throughout my life married women with little to no college education. Many of the men I know, who make plenty of money, prefer a woman who will not work long hours, preferably not work or work part time. Why? Because it makes life better for him. He doesn’t want to work 50 to 70 hours a week, then come home and share equally all of the household chores. Many people are unhappy and don’t even realize that the reason they are unhappy is because both people work long hours, and now they have to share all of the household chores. Compare that to a man who works the same hours, but comes home to dinner on the table and the majority, if not all of the chores done. He now has time to enjoy the fruits of his labor. He doesn’t come home to his second job. There is less strife in the house do to less arguments over who does what.
Many more men would love to have a life like that, but if you understand economics, the fact is, with women now in the workforce as much as men, the simple reality is that most men can’t have that kind if life. Where once, for the majority of families, one bread winner was enough to have a nice life, it now takes two bread winners. That’s how economics works. The more money the average person has, the more things will cost.
Perfect post. Spot on. I wonder what Rusty is doing on a dating site for women. I thought Evan was giving the advice?
I have a masters degree and a decent paying job. While I don’t make it a requirement that a guy has to have a certain degree or earn more than me, I am really big on him having his purpose in life set. Because I have mine set and to me that is more of a common value which is important in a relationship. I can be with a with one who isn’t quite where he wants to be but knows where he wants to be and is working towards it. But a lot of men these days are just way too over the place about what they want for themselves in life or plain unhappy with their career, and are doing nothing to change it. I dropped the laundry list of requirements in my early 20s, including things must have masters or phd. it definitely opened me up to more prospects and made realize that I don’t need certain things from a guy to be interested in him.
Many (not all) men who are high education/ high earners are also alpha, type A, and ambitious, list makers who like to check things off lists. I married one such highly educated, ambitious guy and after we married, I realized I was an item on his check list that he had crossed off. He never paid much attention to me after we got married because he had moved on to the next items on the list. At this point in my life, having an attentive, caring, if somewhat less educated guy in a less prestigious career sounds fine to me. i know a couple where the woman is a high powered career gal and her hubby owns a small house painting business, and they seem very compatible and happy.
Thanks for the feedback. I will reflect on it.
After following advice along EMK’s lines I just had a lovely relationship of about a year with a man in construction who was kind, attentive, attentive to my emotional cues, helpful with housework and children, attuned to my “emotional cues” as EMK would say – I very reluctantly finished the relationsip as he had a very sticky situation going on financially and the loose ends he had with his ex wife and (multiple) children would be pretty much unlivable with for the long term – I’m just glad that I have been able to redraw the paradigm of what I want/expect from a relationship in the future
@ Ruby #34: Not sure, but I found it scares a lot of people off, at least where I live. Almost every guy is kind of apprehensive at first. I guess they are looking for someone who is exactly like them. I’m guessing that people want you to get the same cultural references, to have had the same experiences growing up, etc. I’m pretty good on the references, mostly because my two teenage sons have lived here almost their whole lives. But there is no way I can ever catch up on past experiences, because, well, I wasn’t here then. Some of them (or their relatives) were also worried that I could be a scammer. Some guys also try to treat you like an exotic, which is quite annoying, but, after hearing what my Asian women friends have to deal with, I guess I shouldn’t complain.
I’ve had a lot more success with people who have moved here from other states, and have relocated one or more times in their lives. They are already used to living in different cultures and don’t mind being exposed to another one. I’ve had no luck whatsoever with the guys who were born, raised, and still live in the same area, same city where they went to high school. I never turned people down based on that, it just never worked out. I was too strange to them I guess. One of these guys freaked me out pretty badly when he asked, out of nowhere, in a phone conversation: “So do you like it here in the US or would you rather go back home?” Not proud of my reaction, I told him I had to go, said good-bye and hung up, because I really didn’t know what to say to this.
I think deep down we all really really want the total package. However, I think as we become more mature, we realize there is no real prince charming….at least not that as it ALL.
On the other hand, I think most woman are not willing to be honest about what they truly desire. Some actually do want the check list, someone they can brag about, someone other women would be jealous of …but they know it comes with a price and are not really willing to admit that.
Some, keep the list as a sheild against the possibity of something real.
Once you realize it’s the FEELING you get with someone that makes the difference, you are more willing to set aside the List. I know what I find most attractive, however, experience has taught me when I move to a man that is more in line with my “likes” he is less likely have have what my soul truly desires…
JB – It seems like you list a lot of things that aren’t true to get past people’s filters. So I ask . . .
Is it ok if a woman posts a picture of someone other than herself, someone better looking as her profile picture with no actual photo of her real self on the site? What about if she posts a picture of her from 20 years ago? Or 150 pounds thinner? What if she is only doing it to get past your filter? Is it the same thing or dishonest?
It almost looks like for some women their partner’s (external) features become a reflection of their own sense of worth. If they can not say that “he is a doctor/attorney/whatever fancy job title, he earns a six-figure income, he is good-looking, etc” it means that they are a loser. Or maybe it’s a class/status issue with an uncontrollable need to bring home someone perceived as “equivalent”, no matter how irrelevant these features are for a successful relationship and long-term happiness.
Of course I myself tend to be more comfortable/compatible with someone who has experienced what it is to commit to studying hard for at least four years and as a consequence who has access to more comfortable and interesting jobs. However I’m not hung up on a checklist of requirements, and instead simply live my life according to my values and preferences, which makes me run into the same kind of people without having to work hard at it. Therefore I can turn my focus on assessing men’s deeper qualities, the ones that are actually relevant to building and nurturing a happy and long-lasting relationship. If he happens to be highly educated, a high-earner, or better looking, it’s a bonus. But it’s just that: a bonus.
It can be challenging to explain this concept to family and friends, but it’s not impossible. It just takes a little bit of patience, and being okay with letting go of people who do not get it.
@Goldie #60: “So do you like it here in the US or would you rather go back home?”
Although I understand where it’s coming from, I so, so dislike this kind of question! I was already feeling at home after two weeks in the US, so after so many years of complete engagement in my local californian community, home is 100% here. Much more so than for many Americans actually. I visit my birth country, I’m not going home. People, if I wanted to go back to where I’m from, I would. If I’m here, it’s because I find it much, much better!
I guess it’s another concept I’ll have to keep explaining for the rest of my life…
“Like Fiona, I’m also an attorney. If it happens that I’m dating another attorney, my position would be “I’m dating so-and-so, who happens to be an attorney.”
That seems very odd to me, I would never think to introduce someone I’m dating along with their profession in the same sentence. Someone’s job/career has nothing to do with the type of person they are. And frankly, why put a prejudice in someone’s mind right away, let that person speak for themself if they choose to reveal their profession or do it in a way they feel comfortable. This smacks of ‘status’ seeking.
To the OP, if speed dating events aren’t getting you to the men you would like to meet, stop going to them! Choose other ways to meet men. Might want to consider focusing in on activities that don’t have anything to do with work since masculine energy we use at work is not really an attraction factor for men in romantic situations.
I also took Evan’s advice and kept myself wide open to many different types of men. I began to question that advice, and thought perhaps I had kept myself TOO open, not being selective enough (even though ALL the men I dated or had short relationships with were good men). There were really good looking men in there, engineer types and a wealthy, older man just to make sure I rounded out the selection. 🙂 What happened is a man I dated last year for 6 months re-appeareed into my life recently. What all that other dating did for me was to TRULY open my eyes to what he good match he was for me, and how generous and attentive he is, and how we’ve begun to move to that level of intimacy I desired in a relationship (that all those other men couldn’t provide). He’s professional as I am, however, he never went to college. I more admire his work ethic and perseverce to get to what he wanted/wants to achieve.
My four cents 🙂
Michelle:
When I said that “I’m dating so-and-so, who happens to be…” , I’m not presenting it as I would actually introduce my date by identifying what she does. My point was that what my date does for a living is only one aspect of the whole person.
Even if on the off-chance that I actually said “I’m dating so-and so, who happens to be a waitress” (for example), how exactly is that status seeking? Again, I’d be looking to date the person, not her job.
@ Fusee, my thoughts exactly. I’ve been here 15 years. Most of my relatives are here. My parents live a few blocks away. My children grew up here and do not remember living anywhere else. They can speak and read in my native language, but very poorly. They just learned to read in it last year, when they were 16 and 18, so as you can imagine, not very fluent. As for “back home”, we sold our apartment when we left, and my parents did the same. We only have one or two living relatives still living back in the “old country”, that we barely keep in touch with. We have no one or nowhere to go back to. We never even went back to visit. Maybe one day when time and money permits, I’ll go, but as a tourist. My kids would be lost there, and I would probably never find work. This is home. Going back there would be like immigrating again. Just like everyone else around me, there are some things about my life here that I like, some that I do not like, some that I plan to change, etc. I live here. I’m not constantly weighing my life here and now against my life somewhere else fifteen years ago to see if it’s still worth hanging around or I should call it quits.
Also, just because I may not be a 100% perfect fit for a midwestern suburb, doesn’t necessarily mean that I don’t fit in in America as a whole. So there’s that as well.
@ henriette #45:
IIRC Fiona has mentioned wanting children, but being unwilling to go the adoption or sperm bank route. She wants to stay home and raise this child, yet doesn’t want to lower her standard of living in order to do so, which logically requires a husband who makes nearly double what she currently makes. This may be a large part of what is driving her checklist.
@ Ruby #34: I ‘d love to tell you what the big deal is, but unfortunately, i don’t know for sure either. I can only make assumptions based on my past experiences, so it definitely isn’t a general rule here.
My conclusion is that some guys are simply skeptical of dating people from other countries, mainly because they can’t predict how they will react. Considering that some (if not most) men feel overwhelmed when dating women from their own group, imagine what it might mean having to add another ‘translation filter’ (ie. another culture) to the dating scheme.
Then there are others who are simply so committed to their prejudices, that they simply don’t want to give you the chance to prove them wrong. I’m not saying that these people are bad – by no means! Many are genuinely wonderful! I’m just saying that they will be friendly, but they won’t date you.
@Fusee #43: ‘My two cents, being also a Europeean immigrant… Dating an immigrant is no big deal. Plenty of men love how exotic it feels to have sex with an attractive woman who speaks English with an accent. Especially when it’s French : ) ‘
and #63: ‘I was already feeling at home after two weeks in the US, so after so many years of complete engagement in my local californian community, home is 100% here. ‘
I’m really happy that you’re pleased with your new home and your new community 🙂 But the thing is, most people in the US are known to be more open when it comes to interacting with other cultures. I also have friends living in the US (NYC and Boston) and i have been told that they were simply ‘absorbed’ by the community there. So immigrants might not be such a big deal, especially when they’re from Europe.
However, things look a lot more different when you’re a European immigrant in another European country. For instance, do you think you could have stated the same thing, if you were a French immigrant in, England (gasp) or … say, Germany? I bet you couldn’t. And it’s not because of you, but because of history and the conflicts between nations which go waaaaaaay back.
So, not that i want to hijack the comment section or anything, but i would really really like to have Evan’s input on this, mainly because i know it won’t come up any time soon (pretty please with cherries on top):
If guys who scored ok on my check list (it is really reasonable, i promise!) and initially were really attracted to me, but upon finding out about my ‘origins’ started becoming cold, is it worth while still trying to prove them that i am not the way they might have labeled me in their heads (which has always to do with the fact that i am an immigrant)? Or to what extent should i go? I know that you tell us to stop holding out for the unavailable men who don’t want us, but really… at this stage, my only option would be the dorky guy interested in other cultures and ‘ethnical’ food (hence interested in me mainly because of where i come from).
Ilena, people in western Europe get on just fine living in each other’s countries for the most part. I lived in Switzerland and the Netherlands, had no real issues and back in the UK I have friends from France and Germany who love it here so I think you’re incorrect to suggest that we all have issues. The main issue that I have seen is language.
BIG LOL @ “So do you like it here in the US or would you rather go back home?”
I have a story to share. A few years ago, I was on a GAP adventure in Central America. There were 6 of us from Canada on the trip (4 were caucasians and 2 — my friend and I — were not). On the same tour was a 70 year old gentleman from California. Nice enough as people go but a bit clueless. After spending 2 weeks together as a group (there were about 16 of us), we were in Costa Rica on the last leg of the trip. He and I hadn’t conversed extensively at that point but in general, after that amount of time together, we knew basic details about everyone in the group. My friend and I happened to be sitting across from him at a restaurant. As the conversation quieted a bit and we began to eat, he turned to my friend and me to ask casually – “So, how was the flight here from India? Must have been long.” I didn’t look at my friend because I was dangerously close to laughter but the other Canadians sitting across from us gave him a funny look and rolled their eyes. Needless to say, that didn’t register with him. One of us told him that we had flown from Canada. He went back to his dinner without even realizing that he may have given offence. I was more amused than offended but I can see how terrible this situation would be in a dating scenario. The worst part is that these people are trying to be friendly and don’t realize how impossibly clueless they are. Also re: immigrant, I have never understood that mentality. *Everyone* is an immigrant to North America, unless your ancestors were Innuit. But that is how it works. If you look caucasian and have no accent, you will not be labelled as an “immigrant” even though you may be one, first generation. On the other hand, even if our great grandparents moved to North America and YOU speak no Chinese but look it, you may get “Ni Hao” yelled at you by multiple groups of curious, giggling Spanish schoolchildren in Barcelona. True story….happened to my friend. I was there 😀 Again, harmless but kind of annoying. Also a bit more understandable if still rude in Europe because immigration is not as common. Anyway, the moral of the story for me is that some people are clueless. Will probably always remain so and in any case they don’t mean offence. Happily, there are plenty of others who are not this way. Thankfully, I have never come across this in a dating context though I’ve heard stories.
@Lleana #68: “However, things look a lot more different when you’re a European immigrant in another European country. For instance, do you think you could have stated the same thing, if you were a French immigrant in, England (gasp) or … say, Germany? I bet you couldn’t. And it’s not because of you, but because of history and the conflicts between nations which go waaaaaaay back.”
I agree with you that the immigration experience (and dating experience in the new culture) is going to be influenced by where you are from and where you are going to. Some immigrants are sadly not welcome, despite the great benefits they are bringing to their adopted country. I definitely believe that I’m unfairly priviledged in being a white Western European immigrant, and on the top of that from a tiny country that has plenty of issues within itself but not much with others (I’m originally from French speaking Belgium). Therefore I feel decently accepted wherever I go (I traveled around the world), and I had the same great experience when I briefly lived in Germany for two years before moving across the pond. However it’s not all about the names of the countries; how you manage your cultural integration will greatly influence locals’ perception of you as one of them or as an outsider. Basically the overall experience of an immigrant is going to depend on how successful their negociation between the two cultures is, and how open-minded the other party is at that level. You can’t control others, but you can control yourself! I certainly did a great job negociating between my own values and the US values, and it shows.
“… is it worth while still trying to prove them that i am not the way they might have labeled me in their heads (which has always to do with the fact that i am an immigrant)?”
I personally would not try to prove anything to a man who would have labeled me without knowing me, whatever that is, really. Dating is about finding out what would work and what would not. A different cultural background is certainly a lot to take, and I would not be upset at someone not willing to discover what I am really about and possibly take up the challenge of building a cross-cultural relationship, but there would be no point for me in trying to change someone’s mind who would be skeptical from the get-go, even if their skepticism is based on assumptions or predjudices. Dating is not activism. If my background is a relationship deal-breaker, fine for me. Next!
Fiona, Goldie, Ilena, Fusee
“the main issue that I have seen is language”
Right. I would be unlikely to date a non native English speaking immigrant for language reasons rather than for any xenophobic or cultural reasons. I really enjoy verbal banter, the subtle play on words, hints and innuendos etc. that you can only really engage in quick-fire conversation with a native English speaker.
An immigrant from another country is slightly less preferable in the long run because of the logistical reasons Fusee pointed out — it’s just so much less hassle to date someone from your own country.
It has nothing to do with ignorance, prejudice or racism.
Tom10,
That’s absolutely precious! I bet I, though being an immigrant, could have your head spinning trying to keep up with my wit, and undoubtedly would lose interest for your slow comebacks before you even thought “immigrant”.
That’s why I prefer to date someone who has been outside their backyard. At least once in their life. I also noticed strong correlation between being multi-cultured/speaking more than one language and intelligence, which usually leads to individual’s cultural or personal drive for formal education. Ergo, I’m a lot more compatible with those individuals.
@ Marie #68.1
“I bet I, though being an immigrant, could have your head spinning trying to keep up with my wit, and undoubtedly would lose interest for your slow comebacks before you even thought “immigrant”
Hmm I doubt it, but you can believe that if you want; I mean your response was just so witty that you had me doubled-over…
I mean an immigrant from another English speaking country is slightly less preferable because of logistical reasons.
Tom10 #72. Dude, are you reading our posts? You think we run them through google translate before copying them on here? It’s quite an interesting assumption that all immigrants, regardless of their background, language skills, the number of years they’ve been here etc. are slow to react, bad with innuendos, cannot carry a halfway entertaining conversation and so on. Cannot speak for the rest of our foreigner crew here, but it’s definitely not the case for me.
This takes me back to the original post. When you look at someone’s bio or online profile and, based on details like their place of birth, education, profession, assume things about this person that you cannot really know — like, I don’t know, “he’s a plumber so his crack must always be showing” — you’re cheating yourself out of meeting interesting people, one of whom may well be your match. Your loss. And yeah, hate to break it to you, but that’s prejudice. Being the foreigner that I am, I looked it up: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prejudice and here it is: ” a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge.”
@ RW: “even if our great grandparents moved to North America and YOU speak no Chinese but look it, you may get “Ni Hao” yelled at you”
True. I hadn’t even realized how bad it was, until my coworker, who was originally from China, told me that, after 10+ years here, he was taking his wife and kids (both kids born here) and moving back to China. When I asked for his reasons why, he told me: “Your children are white and have no accent, they will be fine here. But my children, just because of how they look, will always be treated like foreigners.”
@Fiona #69: I agree. Learning the local language – and learning it to as close as the native level as possible – is really a necessary first step to a successful immigration.
@Tom #72: with all due respect, your assumption that non-native speakers might not be able to delight you with “verbal banter, the subtle play on words, hints and innuendos, and quick-fire conversation” is kind of ignorant ; ) You would be surprised at how skilled some non-native speakers are with not only grammar and speech speed, but also their ability to play with words. It’s not just about native skills but a lot about personality and how you like using words to communicate. Amongst my all-American friends I’m the most playful with language – even if I can’t claim yet speaking English at a native level. Anyway it’s all about priorities. For casual dating, it might be too much hassle, but when it comes down to looking at values, character, and relationship skills, thankfully some men are willing to look outside of the all-American box : )
Sometimes your life-long partner does not look like what you (and your family and friends) had in mind. The more open-minded you are on irrelevant factors, the more likely you are going to find your special one. Ditch the education and cultural requirements and focus on what matters!
Fusee #75:
“thankfully some men are willing to look outside of the all-American box : )”
Here’s your opening for an innuendo, Tom. You have 30 seconds. Go.
PS. FTR I started learning English in 2nd grade at age 8. I went to specialized school where we had five English lessons a week in grades 2 through 10. Our teachers had all completed 1-2 year internships in England after finishing their degrees. But a guy that rules me out immediately based on my origin, will never know this, because he’ll never bother to ask — unlike, say, my boyfriend.
Goldie and Fusee
My apologies, I didn’t mean to offend: you are obviously two very intelligent women with language skills well above average. I just said I’d be unlikely to date someone for that reason, but of course I’d judge it based on the specific individual.
I just don’t like those conversations where I find myself slowing down automatically, but this doesn’t apply to either of you 🙂
@Fiona #69:First off, i didn’t claim that everybody has issues. I also didn’t say that people don’t get on well in each others countries. Nobody is going to kick you out or vandalize your car (although i could tell you a few stories about that). It is just that locals in these places are more inclined to still treat you like an immigrant and not be ready to take you in as if you actually belonged there. On the surface, everything seems fine and everyone is polite, but if you look deeper, the situation isn’t all that pink (especially with all the mutual resentment being built up now with the euro-crisis).
Your experiences as a UK citizen (if i understood correctly) in the Netherlands and in Switzerland had an overall positive outcome, because these countries never actually had any direct confrontation with each other. Your German and French friends might have had an overall food time in the UK, but that doesn’t make it a general rule (nor does it make it an exception). I live in Germany and frankly, i can use ONE hand to count the number of people who actually could recall an experience somewhere abroad, without being called a NAZI, being, made fun of, or looked at funny. Plus, you can’t deny the fact that countries from the west are more likely to treat people from other western countries somewhat different than they do the ones from beyond the former iron curtain. That’s why the US is different. They don’t have these issues we have.
To a great extent it depends, as Fusee brilliantly put it, on where you are from and where you are going to. I would add ‘and what you’re planning to do there’. I still maintain my belief that most people will be nice to you, but won’t want to date you.
However, i agree with you 100% percent that the language is the number one problem and the number one key to a successful integration. No doubt about that.
@Fusee71: Ahhh, Belgique! 🙂 Love the chocolate.
You really hit the nail on the head when you said that ‘the overall experience of an immigrant is going to depend on how successful their negociation between the two cultures is, and how open-minded the other party is at that level.’
I personally had to learn it the hard way. I had to overcome my shyness and go up and talk to people in order to socialize and actually make friends. German folks aren’t exactly the most talkative lot when it comes to dealing with strangers. I got used to that. They got used to me.
@Goldie #74: “Tom10 #72. Dude, are you reading our posts? You think we run them through google translate before copying them on here?”
Ha ha ha!!! I’ve been laughing my head off from that one in the last half an hour!!! Come on Goldie, let’s admit it: we actually write our comments in our native languages and Evan translates it all nicely for us. Sadly translating from French is starting to annoy him profusely, so I might have to keep going in German 😀 My Spanish is not good enough yet.
Kein Problem!
Tom10, no worries, I’m not offended. I’m just trying to help you guys realize that excluding people randomly because of uneducated assumptions or even possible “inconveniences” might not help in the long run.
@Lleana #78: Yep, some people will not date/marry someone different than themselves, whatever that difference is (citizenship, accent, skin tone, education, income, hobbies, etc). It can be frustrating to feel excluded, but the actual loss is for the intolerant one. As we can read from the comments, it’s the close-minded that remains single, and it’s folks like my boyfriend and Goldie’s boyfriend who win the whole package, no matter how different the package looks/sounds from the picture they had in their minds. They see the bright side of cultural competency, cute accent, regular international traveling, and the possibility of raising bilingual kids. What is a hassle to some is priceless to others!
I’ve dated mostly Northern European immigrants, not through any conscious choice but — I’ve recently realised — because I’m willing to give them much more leeway. When a Dutch guy talks about money or a French guy talks about sex in a way that I don’t really like, I find myself gently starting a discussion or simply letting it slide, vs. walking away (which is what I’ve tended to do with North American-raised WASPs, who I figure should know better…) Clearly, being gentle and forgiving attracts a lot more men than the cold shoulder LOL.
And, in my current home town (major Canadian city), it’s a total status symbol for the local white rich guys to have a hot immigrant wife: proof that they’re worldly and not white-bread. In fact, the super-expensive neighbhourhood close to mine seems to have 2 sets of wives: 1) beautiful immigrants (mostly from Hong Kong & India, though a few from South America, Eastern Block and Northern Europe) of whom the husbands are constantly boasting, “Women from —— are so much more elegant & feminine than Canadian woman!” and 2) pretty small-town girls whose husbands are proud and excited to take the Professor Higgins role and transform them into sophisticated metropolitan beauties.
Joe 67: You’re right – thanks. I did notice that Fiona didn’t want to take the Sperm bank or adoption routes but I thought I’d mention them as options she might wish to reconsider (just as many of us have reconsidered our dating choices). Most of my friends who did so never dreamed of being single mothers but eventually saw this as a valid option and are now thrilled to pieces with the choices they made.
I so wish education would serve to teach people how to be tolerant, open-minded, and to see past the labels (which is my personal definition of intelligence)…. but you do not learn that in books unfortunately…you do not learn how to be happy in books either…there is a famous song in French that says “what is it that they teach you in schools, if the most important is overlooked?” (my translation)
I did not know the expression “street smart”, but i love it!!!
Tom10 #30
i might have come off as a brat, but I was only stating the truth (and it was part of my argumentation). I said that I am more educated than most people (it is a FACT), I did not say that I am smarter than others though (which, of course, would not be a fact but a conjecture!).
Ileana, I won’t invalidate your experience. I spend a lot of time in other European countries including Germany and Italy. The fact that our countries were at war once makes no difference to me or them. I even dated a German guy for a while – no reason I wouldn’t again so my experience has been very different from yours. There are French people I know who have been in the UK for over 10 years. It really isn’t that dissimilar.
For too many years, I placed a strong emphasis on a woman being cute, intelligent and a little quirky. It appealed to me and made for very interesting dating. Although all my relationships had only a 9-18 month lifespan (when one or both of us got bored or frustrated), I looked down a little on my friends who married a bunch of Plain Janes, many with only marginal educations.
Recently I changed my view entirely. I now think a successful LTR or marriage is based on things like honesty, patience, and maturity. It’s also being able to stick with someone during long, boring stretches of ordinary life, chores and habits, from taking out the trash to picking someone up from the train station to watching the same sitcoms together on Monday. It’s also about being able to meet life crises, be they healthy, family, financial, or whatever. “Commitment” means sticking with something when the excitement is gone. Or even when danger rises.
Looking at my friends’ marriages from my new perspective, they seem to mostly about changing diapers, dealing with neighborhood, job or family issues, things like that–not collegiate debates about politics or art or culture. That’s how they thrive–not on biting satire (which I now thing is actually harmful to a relationship) or the ability to contrast competing global economic visions.
In retrospect, although I have two graduate degrees and own a small business, I think I had a very immature notion of relationships and marriage.
So although I’m just starting this new plan, I am grateful to EMK for his great advice here.
It’s very hard to be an educated, accomplished woman. I’m open to dating men who don’t make as much money as me or have as much education, but in the end, they cannot handle having a woman who is “better than them.” I’ve heard it a thousand times. They compare their success to yours, and if they come up short, they’re out the door (usually with some verbal abuse to cut you down to size). It would be so nice if people actually evaluated each other on their ability to love and provide friendship for their partner, but that is not the case most times. Women are judged on their looks and youth, and men are judged on their wallets. Any attempts to go against society’s rules usually end in much heartache and disaster. I keep hoping to meet that one exception to the rule–one guy who is loving, kind, honorable, and is happy/proud that I’ve worked so hard to be successful.
Speed #83
Good for you for expanding your criteria, but I think a woman can be cute, intelligent, and a little quirky, and still want an LTR. It’s not as if the only women wanting to settle down are “Plain Janes.” It’s more about looking PAST the exterior to make sure that the interior qualities are present.
Great post Speed 83.
Fiona said: (original post)
“He proceeded to give me a lecture as to why I shouldn’t automatically dismiss dating the two guys who were responsible for service washes in the launderette as they may be perfectly nice people”
“For me, it seems plain common sense that, while professional women with masters degrees may be compatible with men in less successful professions, the guy that left school with no qualifications to work in the launderette is highly unlikely to be a good fit.”
For generations, educated professional men have been marrying less educated, less successful women. If a successful, professional man wanted to hold out for someone who had his education and professional success, he was almost guaranteed to end up single. There weren’t enough educated, professional women to go around.
Despite this, my parents (and millions of others) managed to find a “good fit” who could be a partner for 50 or more years of marriage.
Men have managed to do this successfully for years. A few women claim it just can’t possibly work. If you’re our equals, you should be equally capable of making a relationship work when your partner has less education and less professional success.
Catherine said: (#21)
“Hmm, now if a size 16 woman thought a man was wonderful I doubt she would make him feel wonderful. What would make him feel wonderful would be a a very attractive, size 8-10 woman at least 10, maybe 20 years younger.”
I love how you’re trying to rationalize your own ineffective dating strategy by pointing out men who pursue an equally unworkable strategy.
When I got back into dating 6 1/2 years ago, the first woman I dated was a size 18, a divorced mother of two and a year older than me. I found her attractive, and it was a great relationship while it lasted. (She was in another serious relationship after things ended between us, and she’s now engaged to marry a third man.)
Even though she broke things off with me, she thought I was a great guy and was perfectly happy to say that to my subsequent girlfriends.
My fiancée is 16 years older than me. She doesn’t have to be a decade younger than me to make me feel wonderful about myself. (And I’ve dated a couple women 11 years younger than me, who also thought I was a great guy, so I have a basis for comparison.)
Of all the women I’ve dated, I’m not marrying the youngest, the hottest, the most fit, the most fashionable, the smartest, the best educated, the richest, the most successful or the funniest.
But she is the easiest to get along with.
Fiona said: (original post)
“It is not the first time that I have come across the attitude that career women deserve to be alone if they don’t want to date men without any education, or men a generation older, or the obese. I am just wondering how many men really think like this.”
Dating is not a meritocracy. This has nothing to do with what you “deserve”. It’s simple cause and effect. If you rule men out for irrelevant criteria, you’re throwing obstacles into your own path. If you put enough obstacles out there, you’ll end up alone.
I don’t care what kind of job she has (or can get). Unless she’s applying for a job in my office, I don’t care what her résumé looks like.
I agree with Fusee (#63). It sounds like status-seeking … wrapped in a rationalization of compatability.
I agree with speed.
I’ve been described as quirky, and have moments of intelligence, yet my relationship with the boyfriend is rather mundane and ordinary. I wouldn’t have it any other way. No more durm and strang for me.
It doesn’t matter if you’re a nobel prize winner or an oscar winner or a president, a relationship is mostly the ordinary bread and butter of life, the connection and intimacy that’s built steadily over time, with a few crises thrown in and some good times. When we accept that we’ll be ready to have a committed relationship, rather than throwing up reasons why he or she doesn’t make the mark. No person on this planet can save us from the fact that daily life is, mostly, often and, blessedly, if we are fortunate, not that exciting!
And that is very okay.
LC EXACTLY!!!!
Ladies, I think you’re being unnecessarily harsh on Tom10. If language is an issue for hm, he’s probably less likely to initiate relationships with immigrant women than American-born women, but if he meets someone and discovers that she’s colloquially fluent in English, I don’t think the fact that she’s an immigrant would stop him from dating her.
Karl 87 “Dating is not a meritocracy. This has nothing to do with what you “deserve”. It’s simple cause and effect. If you rule men out for irrelevant criteria, you’re throwing obstacles into your own path. If you put enough obstacles out there, you’ll end up alone.” I don’t think the criteria being put up by some of the women here are irrelevant. It’s the length of the list, and the lack of flexibility that’s the biggest issue. I fully support Evan’s call for more flexibility, and to realize that degrees and job titles don’t always equate with a happy partnership or one’s level of success and intelligence. At the same time, just dating anyone who is nice and friendly isn’t the answer either.
People rightly point out to the ways in which a lot of what constitutes a long term, committed relationship is everyday stuff. However, you have to have enough in common, enough shared values, interests, and also mutual respect, in order to make it through the slow, dull, and challenging parts. When I look at the marriages in my family from previous generations, including my parents’ siblings – the ones who stuck it out for decades on end – there’s more misery and conflict than love and respect. The best of the marriages were/are much closer to equal in terms of intelligence levels, common interests, and shared values. All three combined. The others had serious imbalances in at least one of those areas, if not more.
It’s seems to me that Fiona and a few others biggest challenge is to move past the idea that specific job X or financial level Y = both a successful person and also a good potential mate. Money and jobs can come and go, especially in the modern economic world we live in. Don’t throw away all your criteria, but look deeper than job titles and money in the bank.
Your brain during speed dating:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/07/love-at-first-sight-instant-attraction-brain-region_n_2087843.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003
Nathan I think you’re right.
Hmmm…I’m a Chinese immigrant, but I arrived here when I was about 6yo, so have no accent (imho) but some of my male friends, including my current boyfriend, tease me about my pronunciation of certain words. My exhusband is caucasian, too. So, personally, I’ve never had an issue with a man committing to me because I’m an immigrant.
That said, the other day, my BF and I went to a Chinese restaurant where the waitress had a strong Chinese accent and made a flirty comment to him. I think that if we had not been paired up, I think he might have asked her out, but I doubt very much he would become her boyfriend, because of her accent. Same thing with my exhubby. I don’t think he would have taken her too seriously because of her accent.
I don’t necessarily think that immigration status is what keeps some men away, but rather perhaps the TYPE of accent you have. For example, I personally HATE Arnold Schwarznegger and Jean Claude Van Damme’s accents, which, sad to say, make me perceive them less educated than they actually are. But I absolutely adore tonny British and Australian accents, which make me perceive those folks as *more* educated than they are.
So perhaps the type of accent you have may make someone perceive your intelligence in a negative light, which, in turn, makes it harder for that person to take you seriously. If that could be your problem, perhaps getting a speech coach could be of help to you. Just a thought.
Karl R wrote of women: “If you’re our equals, you should be equally capable of making a relationship work when your partner has less education and less professional success.”
Karl, your statement presumes that whether the relationship works depends only on the woman. It doesn’t. It also depends on the man. Unfortunately, many men are not okay with their women being more educated and professionally successful than they.
I have to agree with LC and Liz. Certainly not all men have problems with women being more successful in a worldly sense, but I have met many who have been hostile to the notion of a woman being more successful. Prior to marriage, I had the same experience as LC: dating at least two men who expressed hostility re: my education, despite my having no problem whatsoever with their being less educated.
At least one study from Columbia University shows that men prefer to date women who have lower intelligence and lower ambition than they. I’ve never heard of women having problems with dating men who had higher intelligence or ambition. These aren’t the same as educational attainments, but they correlate well.
It takes two to tango. If men want relationships, they’ll need to be okay with dating more highly-educated women, given that this is already the trend in America (more women graduating with bachelor’s degrees than men). Likewise, we women could realize this reality and lower that specific expectation. On both sides, we need to overcome stereotypes for relationships to survive in this country.
Your interpretation, Helen, is interesting. You conclude, “If men want relationships, they’ll need to be okay with dating more highly-educated women”. The focus is on men to change.
Wouldn’t you agree that it would be equally valuable for women to be okay with dating men who are less-educated and wealthy, given that this is the trend?
Agree with Helen and team. I practice law, and married someone for 8 years, with him 13, who had a Masters. Unfortunately it didn’t work, but we were well suited for each other. I speak on circuits, I am young enough, help run a charity, and basically run around doing stuff that makes me feel good about being a human being. I would love for someone to be like lets go out and conquer the world together, but mostly I get “wow,” followed by a weird silence once they figure all of this out by the 4th or 5th date.
I have been dating about a year, and I have dated from a BA to multiple Phds. I have dated someone in between jobs, and CFOs of multi-milion dollar companies. Innately its how I feel around the man I am with, do I feel safe, and is the affection honest and easy. My undergraduate and graduate work isn’t from Ivy League Institutions, nor do I expect my dates work to be. So being “open” to seeing someone seriously that is less educated than me, and less successful isn’t really a problem. Everyone gets a chance that I am attracted to, and I am not setting the bar at 6’2 and beyond handsome (but I workout constantly, take very good care of myself and to be honest I don’t feel moved by a lot of men online). But I can tell you from the trenches, that we may mirror all we want, set realistic expectations in all areas, and be the greatest, most loving, energetic and special person we can be, some men have no desire to consider Long Term Relationships with “their equal.” And I can’t really change my job, and my education. I am a complete girlie girl in every sense outside of my work, but I am still seen as someone in competition. So what is a girl to do?
liz I agree with you, and I hear you as am in the same boat! I am a doctor, and I am active and fit, and just like you I don’t feel ‘moved’ by the men on-line, esp. and particularly when they are only interested in physical sex as opposed to working on something awesome and “conquer” the world and do good!
Best wishes from a fellow single woman
ann
Helen said: (#95)
“Certainly not all men have problems with women being more successful in a worldly sense, but I have met many who have been hostile to the notion of a woman being more successful.”
Fiona said: (original post)
“I said I would be unlikely to go again because I have nothing in common to talk about with the men that I have met at these events.”
If Fiona said the men were hostile towards her (for any reason), I’d tell her to avoid those men. But that’s not the situation she described.
She said the men were “highly unlikely to be a good fit” because they were not “of equivalent professional or educational status” to her.
At the event that Fiona described, there were possibly some men who would be hostile towards her (for the reasons you described) and others who would have no issue with her level of success. Fiona wrote all of them off.
And that’s entirely on Fiona. The men had no control over her decision.
Helen said: (#95)
“If men want relationships, they’ll need to be okay with dating more highly-educated women”
That’s true. And as soon as those men show up saying that they want a relationship, I’ll tell them that they need to be more open-minded.
But Fiona (and most of the women here) are here because they want relationships. So expand your sentence to encompass women as well as men:
If a person wants a relationship, that person needs to become more open-minded about who they’ll accept as a partner.
I got a relationship because I became more open-minded about who I would accept … and it worked … even though most women remained as closed minded as ever.
If you want a relationship, you need to become more open-minded, even if most ment don’t change at all.
If my dating success had relied on women changing, I’d still be single. And therefore, I feel quite comfortable telling you (and Fiona) that you’re likely to remain single as long as your dating strategy relies on someone else changing.
When I think about what makes a relationship work, I sometimes think of the analogy of a car. For a car to work, all the important parts have to be functional.They don’t all have to be top-of-the range, but they have to be good ENOUGH, that the car actually goes. My ex-husband was an amazing guy in very many ways – good looking, highly intelligent, great cook, good income, common interests etc..etc… BUT our sexual relationship was hopeless – he just wasn’t really interested. In that respect, he was a like a high-end porsche with a wheel missing. End result: the car doesn’t go.
My current man is different – he’s pretty high spec in some ways: great looking, great in bed, loves me loads, very committed, extremely trustworthy… and pretty reasonable in some other areas too- decent cook,reasonable level of shared interests and values and plans for the future, interesting conversation, reasonably good listener, reasonably affectionate… and not quite so high spec (but good ENOUGH) in other areas – income, prospects. End result: the car goes.
Its easy to be drawn in by a few stellar qualities (particularly if they are on our tick lists) but its how the relationship functions across the board that is important. Sure, we all want a bit of wow factor – just important to make sure that the bits that aren’t so wow are at least liveable with.
Evan wrote: “Wouldn’t you agree that it would be equally valuable for women to be okay with dating men who are less-educated and wealthy, given that this is the trend?”
Yes, Evan, I do agree – that’s what I wrote in my second-to-last sentence in 95.
Karl: same thing. Both sides need to expand their notions of what constitutes an acceptable mate, given the changing reality of society, education, the role (or lack thereof) of children in a family, etc. We are all so stuck in our old-fashioned notions, maybe because of the literature we read, the movies we watch, or observing our parents and others who are older than us. Just as there is wisdom to be gleaned from past generations, so we need to constantly be aware of looking ahead (or at the present).
A man isn’t what he dose for a living, but who he is on the in-side. How he interacts with people around him, how he can bring out the best in you and your life. If you choose to look for love in professional men that’s your call. It’s sound like you need that security in your life. That’s not a bad thing. Though, if you’re turning men down because you think you’re better than them, well, think about hun. Would you liked to be judged by someone who knows nothing about you?
@ Speed 83:
“Looking at my friends’ marriages from my new perspective, they seem to mostly about changing diapers, dealing with neighborhood, job or family issues, things like that–not collegiate debates about politics or art or culture.”
From my experience (18-year marriage), for a marriage to work, it has to be a combination of both. I will agree that human qualities come first — the two of you are going to do a lot of hard physical work together, support each other through difficult times, and generally have each other’s back. If you cannot trust your partner, if he or she consistently does not carry their weight around the house, no amount of intellect and common interests will save your relationship.
On the other hand, you won’t be changing diapers forever. Kids grow up, move out, and you suddenly find yourself living in an empty house with a stranger. You’ve got to keep those shared interests alive while the kids are young, or else you’ll have a hard time reconnecting with each other after they’ve grown. A lot of them can be pursued together with the children, as a family. While few toddlers are interested in art, politics, or culture, many teenagers are. (As for toddlers, they are interested in learning insane amounts of new things and skills at a crazy speed. If that’s not being intellectually active, I don’t know what is!) I’ve gone to classical concerts, rock concerts, political rallies etc with my kids. Many of my friends have gone to art exhibits and classical concerts with their elementary- and middle-school aged children, together as a whole family. You don’t have to store your brain in a dusty box in the basement for 18 years till your kids are out of the house. You can still use it around them, in fact they will enjoy it. You can run a house, manage finances, raise children and still remain a well-rounded individual — again, your children will thank you for it.
I agree that, in our search, we need to keep our priorities straight and look for a good, kind person with integrity first. This means we’ll have to lower our expectations of intellectual connection, shared interests etc. But IMO these connection and interests still have to be there in some capacity, otherwise the marriage isn’t going to work out.
Lastly, since my own marriage didn’t work out for both of the above reasons (lack of mutual trust and support AND no shared interests), and since I met my (now-ex) husband in college, that we both graduated from, (a top-tier school in our home country, by the way), educational credentials do not automatically mean that you’ll have a connection with a person. This is one of the reasons why I didn’t filter my candidates based on their level of education. Assuming that BS or MA on a person’s profile automatically means you’ll click intellectually, gives one a sense of false security when choosing a candidate.
I have the same experience as LC and Liz.
I find EMK’s article insulting. Evan, do you really think that we highly educated women with a good career are so shallow that we are unable to look for the things that really matter? We know our value however and we are not prepared to enter a relationship with someone who is not in our league (contrary to some men who have such low standards that they are capable of hooking up with a monkey who wears a skirt).
I am flexible and openminded, and I have a lot of love to give. But for me it is also about how a man makes me FEEL. If he gives me the feeling that I had to settle for second choice, the relationship will not work! For the record, second choice is not necessarily about his degree or about his money but about the fact whether he can love me, education and career included.
I once read a comment about that Lori Gottlieb’s book in which a woman said that she was unable to live in a room of which the ceiling was too low. I think this metaphore expresses perfectly why accomplished women have a number of standards. Yes, maybe we will end up single but that seems way better than being miserable in a relationship with a man that gives you the feeling you never really wanted him…
@Reddy – “Evan, do you really think that we highly educated women with a good career are so shallow that we are unable to look for the things that really matter?”
Yes.
Go buy Lori Gottlieb’s book and thank me when you decide to change your tune.
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/about-evan-marc-katz/writing/
Women want status the way men want beauty. Women are shallow for status and men are shallow for beauty.
The difference is that while men “settling” for less than a supermodel is considered “the way it should be” in most women’s eyes; women don’t expect to settle for less than the status they seek in a mate. Why is the man wrong and the woman not wrong? I don’t get this.
I’m Ivy-league educated and make good money. I go out of my way to not seem like either when I’m out and about with friends or dates, not because I’m ashamed, but because those two qualities are pretty irrelevant to start off a relationship. A man isn’t going to love me more for having been Harvard educated. If he doesn’t know what I make, he can be himself around me and I can better evaluate whether he’s worth expending my relationship energy on.
@Reddy
I don’t think the fact that you’re well-educated or have a good career are what’s keeping you single. Your tone in your post is highly unattractive. I don’t think a man educated or not would want to be with someone who talks like you do for very long. If you’re hot they might bang you before disappearing, but they aren’t going to stick around to be with someone who seems so sour.
“. A man isn’t going to love me more for having been Harvard educated. ”
I agree Karmic Equation. I don’t really talk about my education and degrees much with men on dates, unless they ask me about these things, which they always do at some point. But making it the focus in all convos with guys or practically bragging is useless and it isn’t necessary for forming an emotional connection with a man. Talking about work is so commonplace and mundane, it’s what they do with other guys already. In the same way, I have my girlfriends, co-workers and professional networking to talk about such things already. Sure most men may admire and find my profession intriguing but they don’t care all that much. That’s just one part of my life, and there’s way more to me as a person than that..the same way there is way more to a man than his education and career. Unfortunately, a lot of us women, including myself at one point, have been mislead by society to believe that men nowadays sometimes fall in love for these reasons. i.e. “he should love me because I’m successful”
You also make a great point about how many men “settle” for non-supermodel looking women, and women expect them to “settle” for “less than supermodel”. Yet the same women are not willing to ditch the checklist that includes “must have a phd and make a 6 fig salary” I never thought of it that way.
I use to be one of those unaware, ultra picky women. I’m in my mid 30’s. My continued failure to find the right guy forced me to critically reevaluate myself. I realized that I had a lot of insecurities and low self esteem.
I didn’t really want anyone to truly get to know me- so those “nice guys” who were available seemed just never good enough and those hot alpha guys who were happy to sleep with me, but would never commit, continued to cause me despair.
I’m now in a place where I’m not bitter or frustrated by dating and feel confident I’ve found a great guy.
So how did I do it?
1. I made a greater effort to look the best that I could and stopped judging men for being shallow.
2. I started accepting dates from men whom i felt were completely not in my league.
3. I kept my focus on whether or not the guy would accept my worse traits and who would make me feel safe to be vulnerable.
This is why those three things worked in helping me make the shift:
1. I actually had quite a bit of cosmetic work done by a very skilled plastic surgeon. I look young and natural. Better diet and exercise also helped. I accepted the fact that men are visual creatures. If you are a successful professional with the means to buy your own house, eat at fancy restaurants, then you have the means to make your self look better. It’s a more effective strategy than bemoaning the fact that men want younger, prettier women. BUT, it is not everything and I also had to make other changes as well…
2. Though I looked better, I still had self esteem issues hidden under the guise of self entitlement. I started accepting dates from: men in construction, overweight men, men who were totally not my type, men who were shorter etc. etc..
At first, it felt like wasted time. But I needed to do things differently if I was going to get a different result. Gradually, I discovered that who I dated was not a reflection of me as an individual. I started to share my insecurities with the fat guys. I started to see that a lot of these guys had good hearts. And most importantly, I started to let go of my mental check list and was surprised to find myself having FUN with some of these men.
These so called “men out of my league” were the very ones who help me recognized that I could be loved, flaws and all.
3. Using what I learned from dating men I once thought wouldn’t be a match, I approached professional men in a totally different way. Their credentials didn’t matter anymore, but their integrity did. And I allowed myself to be vulnerable and authentic. I no longer cared about selling my most “impressive traits”.
The net result of all of this? Professional men my age became more interested in pursuing me. Doctors, Lawyers, Bankers….But by this point, I didn’t care so much about status. Eventually I did meet a guy- A Graphic Designer- and we clicked. He is a professional, but not pulling in 6 figures. But he’s cute, my age and most importantly he’s got a good heart. It’s still in the early stages of the relationship, but I am certain I would not have appreciated him 6 months ago, when i was still chasing the “perfect guy”.
As for Evan’s point about women being shallow, I would like to add that often this shallowness comes from insecurity issues. Until you address your vulnerability, you will never find true love.
.
Evan, sorry to hear that the highly educated women you met were shallow. Could this evaluation of yours possibly have something to do with the fact that these women were not interested in you? Or wanted an equal relationship without having to look at you in admiration and having to stroke your ego?
It seems to me that few things irritate men more than women who refuse to lower their standards rather than start a relationship with a man who does not appeal to them. Why this irritation? Don’t we have the right to decide on our own standards? You say: “Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.” Why should the same not be true for women?
Just to give a few examples of things I am not willing to compromise on and noone will convince me that these are shallow criteria:
– a man who is honest, faithful and reliable: that goes without saying
– a man with personal hygiene: taking a shower in the morning, using some deo, brushing your teeth. I expect a man in his 40-ies to know these basic personal hygiene principles. And yes, there are some who don’t know them.
– a man who is free from addictions (to drugs, alcohol, porn,…): if you drink 4 glasses of wine during a Sunday afternoon date which lasts 3 hours and then get in your car, you can forget about a 2nd date.
– a man who is in reasonable shape: I get that you no longer have the body of a 20 year old, the same is valid for me. However, although I don’t mind a few extra pounds, I am not attracted to a man who does not do any sport and does not pay any attention to what he eats. This comes from a lady in her 40-ies who is attractive and slim.
– a man who is financially independent: I have a job with a comfortable income and having to support a man is one of my biggest fears. Why? Because I have seen horror situations where a man managed to get alimony from the woman who had been his breadwinner. I don’t need a guy who provides for me, I am very good at doing that myself. But I will not provide for a man.
– A man with higher education: I have been with guys with less education than me when I was younger and it simply did not work. It feels like speaking to someone who has another mother tongue: you immediately limit your vocabulary. That’s OK for a 2 hours conversation but not for a life together.
– a man I want to make love to: He does not have to be a looker but I have to want to see him naked, maybe not at the first date but somewhere along the line. And this has nothing to do with being 6 foot tall. I just don’t want him to be smaller than I am (I am 5’57 so that’s not asking for too much). When he faces my boobs rather than my eyes when he is standing in front of me then he is too small :-).
– last but not least: a man who loves my heart, body and brain and does not expect me to be some 2012 version of a Stepford wife! I am no Plane Jane and it is impossible to turn me into one…
Now as for Lori Gottlieb’s book, I have no intention to read it as it is not inviting at all on the basis of the comments I read about it and the interviews I read with her. She does not come across as a positive happy person. Also, it is difficult to believe her approach since as far as she knows she is still single…
@Reddy: Your insults are ridiculous. But I will waste my time answering you anyway.
1. I didn’t say that all the highly educated women I met were shallow. I said that the women who expressed themselves like YOU were shallow. That’s a small, but meaningful percentage.
2. Candidly, the vast majority of women I met were interested in me. The ones who were not undoubtedly had their valid reasons, but that doesn’t make them shallow. What does make some women shallow (or short-sighted or difficult – choose your angle) is not their feelings about me, but rather their condescending feelings about men. Your utter lack of humility is astounding. And the reason you’ll struggle with men is not because no one is good enough for you, but because of that lack of humility alone. I mean, just typing this sentence out loud is absurd: “there are NO men who are good enough for Reddy. She is better than ALL of them.” That’s tacitly what you’re suggesting. Your list of good qualities is endless. You seem to have no acknowledged flaws and weaknesses. And you’re very quick to point out the many failings of men. We’re all clear. But don’t be too shocked if men don’t find that attitude attractive.
3. My wife and I HAVE an equal relationship. She looks at me with admiration and strokes my ego and I do the same for her. That’s what people in love DO! I know you’re too sophisticated and worldly to do something as awful as make your man feel good, but guess what, that’s all we want out of a partner. If you’d rather tell him what’s wrong with him because you’re “just being honest”, then, once again, you can’t be too surprised when men don’t find that appealing. It’s not “Stepford” to treat your partner like your favorite person in the world. It’s common sense.
4. I support my wife financially. So do millions of men. Why is it such a horror if you make more money than your husband? Oh, that’s right: because you want all the benefits of equality without truly believing that men and women are equal. Well if we’re equal, then you better come around to what men figured out years ago: you marry for LOVE, not for money. You marry because someone is pleasant and happy and supportive. You don’t marry for the laundry list that you posted above (even if none of it is particularly objectionable in its own right).
5. I have no idea how educated you are, but just because you have a masters doesn’t make you smarter than a guy who has a BA – or, for that matter, a guy who didn’t go to college. Unless you’ve met all of the men on the planet, it’s pretty arrogant to say that you are, de facto, a better conversationalist than anyone who chose not to pursue an advanced degree.
6. The irony of you refusing to read Lori Gottlieb’s book because she’s single and doesn’t come across as a positive happy person, well, I don’t really have to complete that thought, do I?
I want to add this. Instead of complaining about how women refuse to settle men should maybe up their game. Steve Nakamoto says in the following in his book “Men are like fish.”:
BECOME A BIG FISH: The path of self-improvement also applies to men. A smart man does all he can to become the kind of man that a woman truly wants. That means a man should: get a fresh start, maximize his talents, develop his game, play with more heart, and move up in class. Don’t get “thrown back” for not measuring up to a sensitive, intelligent woman’s standards.
We women throw men back because they don’t give us the feeling that they can make us happy…
@Essie: since when is mid-thirties so “old” that one needs extensive plastic surgery?
I agree many men don’t care so much about a woman’s income and job. However, I looked at Match.com recently, and was surprised by the number of men listing an income cut-off in their profiles, as well as at least a bachelor’s degree for their dates. I think that well-educated men listing at least a college degree is quite common. And these tend to be men who are doing well financially (most made 6 figures). So I think that, for many of these men, income and earning power do matter. Despite what’s being said here, many older men do not want to be financially responsible for a partner. I’ve also dated smart men who’ve told me that they wouldn’t seriously consider a woman whom they didn’t find intelligent enough. One male friend of mine told me that was because he didn’t want to have “dumb” kids!
“Alas, men don’t care if you’re taller, richer, smarter or funnier. ”
You are right, Evan, they don’t.
Men just care if you’re younger, thinner, prettier and physically fit. These are their main standards to determine if you are good enough to date. Women have their standards, too.
If a woman should be willing to date a guy with only a HS Diploma when she has an MBA, then a man should be able to date a “5” when he makes $200K per year. But we know that’s not likely to happen, don’t we? A guy who earns $200K is going to shoot for at least an 8. Heck, even poor guys shoot for hot women!
So I think it’s only fair to say that an educated woman is equally “entitled” to an educated man just as men who make a lot of money feel “entitled” to the most desirable women from a physical standpoint.
Reproaching this woman in indirect or subtle ways by subtly implying she should simply get off her high horse isn’t fair. She can get off her high horse the minute a wealthy guy starts dating a 5.
@DLR – Last I checked, this was a site that gave advice to women. As such, my advice to women is to get over their impressive bodies and credentials and realize that men will marry you for the way you make him feel inside. If I were to give advice to men, I would advise them on the same thing – get over your obsession with youth and beauty and choose a woman of character.
At the end of the day, there are the small percentage of men who get the women who are physical 10’s and a small percentage of women who get the men who are career 10’s.
And the rest of us need to learn to compromise. I’m presuming that you and Reddy need to compromise, just like I did. If you’d rather be alone than compromise, that’s perfectly fine by me.
DLR
I do know a wealthy man who, after years of womanising, married a woman who was a single mother in her forties. They went on to have two daughters.
another even wealthier man (think racehorse owner) married my friend who is a solid uk size fourteen, not plus size but certainly not thin, with severe acne scarring.
Reddy, you can get off that high horse. Must be lonely up there.
Ruby @110
I had a nose job, liposuction around the waist, an eye lift and injectable fillers. It wasn’t necessary, but it did make me look a LOT better. It’s not that I recommend it for everyone, but looking better got my foot in the door more easily. But ultimately, if I didn’t change my attitude, improved looks wouldn’t have made that much of a difference. At 35, I’m not that old, but looking closer to late 20’s gives me more options with men closer to my own age.
I agree with the opinion that in many cases it is perhaps more comfortable and easier for a well-educated woman to date a man who is a little less educated, intellectual, sophisticated, etc., because such a man, if truly interested in a woman, might appreciate her qualities much more than her equal and is therefore more persevering in courting her. As a result she can feel much more valued and safer in a relationship.
EVAN: When has a successful guy ever been *forced* to make a *major* compromise as far as a woman’s looks and age are concerned? By “compromise” I am not saying a 10 verses an 8, I am talking an 8,9,10 verses a 5? Successful men do not have to compromise, at least not by much. Even if he gets an 8, he is still with a hot woman. But we women have to be willing to compromise, some times to a great extent, or we will wind up alone or unhappy, is that what you’re saying? I have an MBA and I am delighted to date guys with a BA/BS who make considerably less than a six figure income. I have no have problem with a reasonable compromise. But will I date the guy with only the HS Diploma? I’ll never say never, but let’s face, probably not, just like a successful guy does not have to “tolerate” a 5, so therefore he doesn’t. And thank you for making me really think about this matter, because yes, I have concluded I would definitely be happier alone that making such a large compromise.
@DLR – Show me one place in 6 years of writing this blog that I’ve told any woman to make an unreasonable compromise. Until then, you’re only arguing with yourself and turning compromise into something black or white. He’s brilliant…or stupid. He’s rich…or poor. He’s handsome…or ugly. Never said any of them. So you’re fighting with a straw man, darling.
Reddy # 108:
Sorry to say, but YOU DO NOT come across as a positive happy person either….
EVAN: Implying that you might want to give give a laundry operator a shot if you are a successful woman with an advanced degree is an unreasonable compromise in my book, maybe not yours. Fair enough. Maybe you’ll go so far as to state you never intended to imply that. Fair enough, again. But it seems to me that such an argument would simply fall into the realm of semantics.
@DLR
I think you might be missing a key point.
Is a guy who has a BA/BS capable of loving you MORE than a guy who only has a HS diploma? How well and how much a man can love you is independent of his degrees.
Are you really sure that a guy who has a BA/BS is smarter than a guy with only a HS diploma? Please, we know plenty of career politicians who have degrees who are total idiots. I personally know know a carpenter who was a rocket scientist in the army (no formal degrees…but he did work on rockets!)
Maybe it wasn’t intellect or drive that prevented him from completing higher education. For example, how would you know if a brilliant man didn’t give up an education to take care of his family? You don’t unless you date him…And if you date a man without formal higher-education, and you find him lacking, that DOESN’T mean all men without higher-education are lacking in the same way. Higher education doesn’t equate to higher character.
Date the man…not his credentials. You’ll be happier that way…and dating is so much less pressurized if you date with the intent to get to know someone’s character as opposed to only dating those you already perceive as worth knowing based on their credentials.
Love is blind and oftentimes make less money than you if you are a successful woman. If that disturbs you, well, not much I say to help you there.
@DLR I agree with you. I’m fine with making reasonable compromises. I have had relationships with guys who have a college degree and make less than me. When that hasn’t bothered them I don’t care either. I’d love to meet someone in that range. I don’t hold my advanced degree/6 figure standard as a minimum in dating. But I do want someone with similiar life experiences and ability to afford the same kind of life today.
KARMIC EQUATION: If love is blind, then why do I rarely see successful men with women who aren’t very attractive? Are they dating the woman…not her age and looks?? If a woman should give a lesser education/lesser income man a shot, then a man should give a not younger/less good looking woman a shot, right? Wouldn’t we all be happier this way? I consider dating a guy who is much less educated like dating a guy who is 20 years or more older, just too far out of my range. It’s really nothing personal. The older could be a great guy, but I still don’t want to date my father!
(You’re still not listening, DLR…No one is asking you to date someone 20 years older…Stop with the straw man argument…)
From the original post:
“You painted a black and white world, Fiona. It wasn’t that he was less educated than you. It’s that he was a laundry operator. It’s not that a man is older than you, it’s that he’s a generation older than you. It’s not that he’s a few pounds overweight, it’s that he’s obese. All of your examples are extreme, but not all men are extreme examples of anything.”
K: Amen sister!
I must say that I am heartened by a number of female responses here, especially marymary, who usually makes a lot of sense.
I now feel somewhat vindicated in holding my views, despite the anger and lashback from women who will not face reality.
Thank you to Frimmel, who provided the link to a woman who has thought through the issues (owning your shit) and arrived at the same conclusion, and indeed has gone much further.
I am amazed at the audacity of some bloggers, who have no shame in proclaiming their sense of entitlement. Men recoil from the stench of this.
DLR “Men just care if you’re younger, thinner, prettier and physically fit”
Well if this is true, surely their ability to “win” women like this will depend on their level of value to the opposite sex, which you know to be educated, wealthy men.
BUT on your definition of equal it should be men who are younger and thinner. You know that isn’t the case.
It therefore follows that your educational and professional attainment in no way makes you an ‘equal’ to a man with similar credentials.
You women cannot get your head around this. Forgive the over statement, but they are WORTHLESS.
Keep repeating until it finally sinks in.
You are no more entitled to a successful man than a waitress is.
You are correct, a successful man doesnt have to compromise, and neither does a young beautiful women.
Everyone else DOES.
And I agree with Evan, those who are more mature, will increasingly value character. I have dated obese women, and I am quite successful.
DLR @ 123
To be honest, with the type of attitude you have, it’s not likely that a laundry room operator or a man 20 years your senior would think you are such a great catch 😉
And in that case, you would have no choice but to be alone.
Evan, although you argue that kindness is more important than intellect, as I understand it, although correct me if I am wrong., you are not arguing, as some would seem to understand it, that intelligence is irrelevant. Smart women are always going to prefer smart men – I would not say that is shallow but rather a sign of a deep desire to connect. Shallow for me would be smart women goes for cute but dumb guy and couldn’t care less about conversation.
Fiona, you’re watching the act of people putting words in my mouth because they’re afraid of compromising on ANYTHING.
No one said intelligence didn’t matter. Or looks. Or money. Or anything you think is important.
But, objectively, if Every. Single. Thing. can become a dealbreaker, then you’re gonna have a lot harder time finding a deal.
I compromised on what I thought I was looking for in terms of age, intellectual curiosity, religion, geography, and politics. Did I choose a woman who was 60, illiterate, goes to church every week, lives in Nebraska and worships at the altar of Rush Limbaugh? Not even close. I hit the fucking jackpot. But I compromised. I see no evidence that the DLRs and Reddy’s of the world are willing to do so, despite their protests to the contrary. Otherwise, would we even be having this conversation based on my original even-handed blog post?
So please, stop listening to the black/white fear-based worldview that compromising is dating someone entirely inappropriate for you. If anything, it’s about getting out of your own way and recognizing that you don’t need to be with the male version of yourself to be happy.
Evan, I sympathise. I think people misunderstand sometimes that things aren’t as black and white as painted. For me geography, politics (assuming we are not talking fascism or communism), religion (assuming no extremism) have never featured on my list and I am prepared to be flexible on age (give or take 10 years). I guess I am a less willing to compromise on education because in my generation university in the UK, unlike the US, was totally free of charge so it is hard for me to understand why anyone who was bright and wanted to get on in life wouldn’t have gone for it unless they were a successful entrepreneur. There are of course exceptions, but in the majority of cases, those who didn’t either couldn’t or weren’t interested. Either way, as a woman who got educated, lived and worked abroad, it is pretty hard to imagine spending my life with a guy who hasn’t been anywhere or done anything regardless of whether that is through lack of ability of lack of desire. It doesn’t mean those guy are bad guys. It doesn’t mean they aren’t loving. It does mean maybe they aren’t a good fit for me. For my faults I would probably rather date a guy from another western country that has travelled and been educated than a Brit who hasn’t.
BARRY: Are you stating that my educational attainment is worthless to a man? Correct me if I misunderstand. Because after recently meeting a guy, talking for an hour about our backgrounds before agreeing to a date, I asked him what he thought based on our preliminary get to you know you conversation. His response? “TWO degrees?? … BINGO!!” As if he’d hit the jackpot or something.
DLR, I’ll jump in for Barry. Just because a man is foolish enough to agree with you that two degrees matter does not mean that they actually do. It just means he’s under the same illusion that you are – higher degrees equal better partnerships. They don’t. Selflessness, generosity, sensitivity, high emotional IQ matter infinitely more. A PhD is merely icing on the cake, not the cake itself.
Evan, please tell me where I said that I don’t want to make more money than my husband. If you read my posts carefully, you will have to admit that I am not saying that. I am only saying that I want a partner who is financially independent because I don’t want to support my partner financially. The reason for that is very simple: I don’t mind taking the risk that my heart gets broken by a relationship but I want to keep my bank account intact!
I am glad that you are able to admit that nothing on my list is particularly objectionable because nothing on my list is. So where on earth do you get that I lack humility and where do I pretend that I have an endless list of good qualities. These are all things that you deduct from what I write but these things come from you and from your prejudices and hangups and have nothing to do with me. If there is anything I am not, it is shallow. I have always taken my relationships very seriously and have always known that compatibility and shared values are key. Consequently it is pretty unique to meet someone with whom things can work out. You cannot make no matter what nice guy your partner and then “start to treat him as your favourite person”. It is the other way round: someone first has to be your favourite person and then you can start treating him/her as your partner…
Fiona, if it is of any value for you, I want to tell you that I totally understand you. My advice would be to not sell yourself short. Speeddating events are not the best way to meet someone in my opinion. My experience with them was that in order to have the same number of men and women, the agency who organised the events sometimes asked men to come who did not belong to the targeted age bracket or not really looking for a relationship.
I think the dating sites are a better way of meeting people, but you need perseverance. For the rest I think it is best to go with the flow, enjoy your life and regularly do new things on your own, like taking a course or travel. I do many things on my own and I very often meet very interesting people. Not necessarily potential partners but people with good energy who inspire me.
Fiona
I cannot accept your value judgments. You are starting from the position of what you desire, and trying to justify your unreasonable expectations.
I am also from the UK. I did get higher education, but this was against my parents wishes. I came from a working class council estate, where my parents expected me to go to work to bring in money for them.
Any success I have is from intellect and determination and not education.
Also hard work and education are in no way guaranteed to bring you success. Luck plays a part.
I have been able to travel the world, but only because I was made redundant from my job.
In the real world, shit happens. What if you find the guy who is the right ‘fit’ and he becomes ill and cannot work again ?
And lets not forget that successful guys do not have such stringent requirements. They are not looking for you.
I find your rationale completely ridiculous.
And BARRY: speaking of audacious, it’s pretty dismissive and audacious to to state that education is WORTHLESS in all CAPS to those who worked their ass off working full time jobs while putting themselves through undergrad school and MBA school like myself.
DLR
I was being audacious, and it was an overstatement (which I acknowledged) to make the point.
With regards to a career, education is far from worthless of course.
But, if a woman works her ass off to obtain an MBA solely to attract a mate, she has completely wasted her time.
Barry, it doesn’t really matter whether you accept them or not. My values are my values. you are so hostile that I can only take everything you say with a big pinch of salt. I think it is perfectly reasonable to seek someone I have some things in common with. You have never met me and you do not know what men are looking for me so don’t tell me that successful men aren’t looking for me. You aren’t but that is no loss to me.
I like the idea that most of us have to compromise. It’s true but I think successful women might get the shorter end of the stick. I read above about successful men not having to compromise on youth and beauty yet successful women having to compromise on education and financial success.(Just for this post I’m defining success as education and income. I don’t believe this to be true.)
Like it or not we need to throw statistics in the mix. How many successful men are out there? How many young pretty women? To be blunt it shouldn’t be a surprise that successful men don’t need to compromise in this area.
How many successful women are out there? … it’ doesn’t really matter. They want a successful man. The same man that has plenty of options. You may or may not fall in the pool of women those successful men want to have a relationship with.
What I’m trying to say is. Successful men have already created a large pool of women to date. Successful women need to do the same. It might be hard to swallow but numbers matter. And in this case they don’t work for successful women wanting only successful men.
Reddy
“Don’t we have the right to decide on our own standards?”
Your list of requirements in a man is actually perfectly reasonable.
DLR
“His response? TWO degrees??… BINGO!!! As if he’d hit the jackpot or something”
Unfortunately this is the oldest trick in the book. He just said what he thought you wanted to hear. Men really don’t care if you have ten degrees, but we let on we do, because we know that women care about their achievements.
“men should give a not younger/less good looking woman a shot, right? Wouldn’t we all be happier this way?”
I agree with you 100% here, however, this is a blog to advise women not men. As Evan keeps saying, you can’t change the behaviour of men; you can only change your own. In fact if I was going to advise other men, I would simply say: get better educated!
I don’t think Barry meant your education is worthless in itself, he meant it’s a worthless trait when trying to attract a man (although ‘worthless’ might be a bit strong).
REDDY & FIONA: IMO, reading over your posts (and mine), it seems people who are defensive and very critical over your posts are pretty touchy about the subject. Maybe they were passed over or perceived themselves to be passed over due to not having enough education or income by some woman’s standards at some point in their lives. Who knows, just speculating. A lot of guys judge *themselves* against education, income and occupation requirements and if they fall or fell short at some point in their lives, they might become rather touchy and defensive about the issue.
TOM 10: “Unfortunately this is the oldest trick in the book. He just said what he thought you wanted to hear. Men really don’t care if you have ten degrees, but we let on we do, because we know that women care about their achievements.”
I admit I suspect you are correct, at least in this case. After he expressed delight over my two degrees, I never heard about it again – not once! Instead, he told me I was gorgeous many, many times during multiple dates. Maybe he thought I’d want to hear that, too, but if he also thought I wanted to hear that my degrees are awesome, what made him stop telling me after just one exclamation? Why not tell me repeatedly? He was preoccupied with my looks, not my education!
The reason why there are a lot of insulting comments being launched between the EMK and women who ‘don’t want to compromise’ is because I think that EMK has not specifically defined what would be a reasonable loosening of a successful woman’s standards if she’s serious about attracting a mate. To be honest, as a woman with a Masters degree, I would never date a laundry operator, either. I don’t think Reddy’s list of requirements is all that loathsome.
Reddy, read Rachel Greenwald’s book about how to find a husband after the age of 35 (I don’t know your age, but her advice is great no matter how old you are). Only you can define how much you are willing to bend your standards. You can set a floor of what you’d be willing to accept, your ‘sweet spot’ (as it were), and then your ceiling (this is a more aspirational and perhaps ‘shallow’ goal) and then you will be able to date more men than those who just fit a narrow list.
Unlike EMK, I don’t agree that you should entertain all comers. Time is limited, and you absolutely need to use the guideposts of educational and income attainment to help you navigate what type of person would be right for you – so definitely never ever discount educational achievement. But set the minimum educational attainment you are willing to accept and the maximum that you’d like, and date within those parameters. After all, people do judge you all the time based on your achievements, and they are a part of you. So this means if your potential man is a machinist, is he the best? If he’s a nurse, is awesome at what he does? If he’s not formally educated, is he still ambitious and wants to learn or be a pioneer in whatever he does? So, I think dating an alpha plumber, electrician, or someone willing to be the best at what he does (even if he makes less than you) would have the ‘alpha’ energy most women are looking for.
I did date a man who was a very successful screenwriter with only a high school education, but what I liked about him was his drive and willingness to be successful in his field. He was very alpha despite lack of education.
I also dated a bike mechanic who was younger than me, no education, and it was boring as hell after a while. He was shorter, but fit. He was super sweet and treated me like gold, but intellectually, I was beyond bored. I lived in LA for a long time, so you’re always meeting guys with good hearts without a penny in their pockets. Honestly, these are not good relationship material kind of men. You’ll end up forgiving their lack of achievement and if it doesn’t work out, maybe you had some nice times, but this kind of man never made me feel like a woman. I’m married now to a creative type man, and I like him because he’s alpha. The betas didn’t keep me that interested after a while.
So, even if he has less formal education than you, it’s important that he’s striving, not just surviving and wants to be great at what he does. I love supporting a man like this, but my bike mechanic boyfriend was a mess, and I do not do well with betas with no direction or ambition, and thus, didn’t marry one. You don’t want to marry a puppy because a man has got to make you feel like a woman. Some of the betas just feel like adoring children, and that can never be sexy over the long haul because inside every alpha woman is a woman who wants a man strong enough so she can let go and be vulnerable, and unfortunately, the more successful you are as a woman, the man who’s strong enough for you has to be accomplished in whatever field he’s in so you can feel like you can relax – that’s why women seek out alphas. We need their strength in a way so we can know that we’re okay, he’s in charge, and we can be vulnerable and let him take the lead. With my bicycle mechanic buddy, I could never relax – he just wasn’t alpha enough, and I did not enjoy paying for his dinners and entertainment. He didn’t make me feel like a woman. I would rather treat an aspiring alpha to a meal and feel that it was time and money well spent. Plus it’s more exciting to encourage the dreams and ambitions of an alpha than to have a puppy dog waiting for you at home. The puppy has no ambition and being with them gets old fast.
So many guys can fill this role of alpha if you just get beyond the simplistic thinking of ‘makes more money than me = alpha”. If he’s the kind of dude into nutrition, he’s got to want to be the next David Wolfe; if he’s into construction, then he’s got to have his own business; if he’s into nursing, then he’s the go-to nurse that everyone admires; if he’s a teacher, he’s a kick-ass teacher. Even if he doesn’t hit his goals, he needs to have them and he needs to be stretching himself. So, regardless of the money he makes, he needs to be strong enough in his own direction so that you can let go. But betas who don’t know how to step up so you can relax are not a long term recipe for happiness imho.
Tom10 #140, you brought up a good point that I hope doesn’t get lost in the shuffle.
We women shouldn’t care about educating ourselves for the purpose of getting a man. We should do it for every other reason in the world that an education is important: expanding your mind, improving your skill set, and increasing your chances of financial security and an enjoyable career.
Why should it matter to anyone whether a romantic prospect is interested or not in our degrees? I don’t think a man would care if a woman didn’t pay much attention to his having a master’s degree. Why should a woman care if a man doesn’t notice?
It makes me wonder if we women in general care far too much about men’s approval. Let your degrees, your accomplishments, your talents, your hobbies be their own reward to you. Don’t make it a requirement that men like you more for them. You’ll be doing yourself and men a favor.
Barry #137
“But, if a woman works her ass off to obtain an MBA solely to attract a mate, she has completely wasted her time.”
Do you honestly think that’s why women get advanced degrees? Seriously, Essie’s (#115) extensive plastic surgeries would be cheaper and easier than that.
I am reading this thread and thought I should throw in my 2 cents based on my experience with dating. Evan is right. Men do what they want to do. I dated an attorney in his early 40s. He wants athletic, driven and motivated (he wasn’t specific with degrees, income and such) and someone he is physically attracted to. And since I do what I want to do. I dated him for a year. Not once we spoke about degrees and accomplishments. I decided to move on and we stay friends. Our fondest memory was at Walmart buying $2 flip-flops 🙂 Then I got asked out by a 55 year old, short, overweight plumber by trade who owns his own plumbing company. And since I do what I want to do. I went out with him and had fun. No second date but we are friends and he does my as needed plumbing work :-). Then I met my current beau at the running trail across the hospital I work. We laugh, talk, wide-eyed I gab over stuff, he listens and laughs until his jaws hurt, we had smoothies, coffee, brunch post running. We kept seeing each other at the running trail. Perhaps 3rd week into it he said he has proven he is not a running trail stalker 🙂 can we have a real meal. And since I do what I want to do, I said yes to dinner and that is when I found out he is a Neuro-surgeon. Nothing has changed. Our jobs, education, income, accomplishments are perks, icing on the cake just like what Evan said. Have fun, be flexible, be open to possibilities. N. =)
Nic 146
yep
if you had been qualifying your running friend even subconsciously he would have likely run off. you might not have been as open and fun if you’d been holding him up to the checklist. Or thinking that all men are bastards.
Enjoy the men you actually meet rather than complain that you’re not meeting wonder boy. Ironically, that’s your best chance of meeting a wonderboy, when you’re enjoying yourself and being interested and warm to others. It’s no loss.
Plenty of love to go around!
a good man really is less impressed by your achievements and even looks than he is with your heart and soul. Extend the same courtesy to him. Yes there are shallow people but they are quite easily avoided if you don’t buy into their thinking, if you can call it thinking.
I compromised, my boyfriend compromised. We are not a pair of poor, fugly, pathetic, losers, really. I think he is a catch and vice versa.
Still, a neuro surgeon!
Ps and even poor fugly losers manage to couple up. lid for every pot.
Women really have got themselves into a complete mess.
They have grasped the opportunity to rise to the top of professions which in the past were just the preserve of men.
They define self worth in terms of what they have achieved in their careers.
In the past they may have valued themselves in the reflected glow of the achievements of their husbands. They still want that too.
What you see in these posts is a dawning sense of horror that those attributes that conferred value in society, may have little or even negative mating value in the eyes of the opposite sex.
When you pride yourself on being an 9 when you are actually a 4, you can understand the reluctance to accept what is being suggested to you.
Its just too much for the ego to take.
Recently I had a stay in hospital. I enjoyed chatting with the female doctors as an intellectual peer. I knew that they had undergone years of intensive study to get where they were. I admired their self assurance.
That did not make me go ‘Wow’
There was however another group of females that did elicit that response – the nurses.
Their kindness, gentleness, dedication, hard work and obvious desire to bring about a recovery in their patients. Wow.
They work long hours for poor pay. Many are not from my native country.
Who cares – I thought they were lovely, and I told them that.
Evan has said it often enough. These are the traits that men look for in women. Why are we still arguing ?
I think that Tom is right in that men generally don’t care all that much about the degrees that a woman has. I have found in general though that intelligent men do tend to prefer intelligent women. If I look at my male friends in my profession I haven’t seen one that married a hot young waitress for all Barry’s suggestions that being hot and being young are all that matter. They have all married intelligent women in a similar age bracket that also happen to be well educated. Even my intelligent male gay friend have settled with other intelligent guys. We all need to learn what we are prepared to compromise on and what not.
I might relax my education requirements a bit although I am not going prepared to throw it out of the window altogether nor to lower the intelligence requirement at all.
It had never occurred to me that things could be so complicated. Now I wonder why a man would want to date a so-called “successful” woman?
Most men are attracted to feminine qualities: radiance, light heartedness, beauty (in all its aspects), peace, and fun! If education has ripped you off of your beauty, you are not attractive any more, and it is almost certain that you are not attractive for an alpha successful man… Even if you look good, he will quickly find out that you are not *beauty full*, and he will be gone after 1 or 2 dates!!!!
PS: On a funny note, EMK, I now understand why “successful” women need a very special dating coach!
#Nic 146
Great story !!!!
…. and full of philosophical/spiritual wisdom: let go ! let your hair down and have fun! in the end, you may very well end up with what you wanted ! (but it will not be the most important, only icing on the cake!!!)
I remember about 20 years ago asking a male friend to tell me honestly if he met me what would be his take? He said he would enjoy being with me as I’m fun and that I’m attractive but he would be concerned that I was not on a “career track”. I was/am, a part-time musician, self employed with stable work in another professional field yet his fear objectively was that I did not seem like I would have a steady, stable career with a large corporation. I still laugh thinking about that one…although it slightly hurt my feelings at the time.
I think some men DO look for high achieving, high earning women so they don’t have to assume the burden of provider, as that can be quite stressful. The truth is, I am financially secure but my male friend (speaking objectively) did not seem intrigued by my somewhat alternative lifestyle. He wanted a bread winning partner with company benefits! The truth is, I am quite financially secure as I have lived fairly frugally throughout my life, despite being self employed.
I recently had two dates with a guy with an MBA. He’s very nice, fun and VERY interested in me, he’s 4 years older at 55, twice divorced. He’s not what I would call attractive but I decided to give him a chance. He kissed me on both dates, and I wasn’t into it. I want to be attracted to the person I end up, and I don’t think I can compromise on this….he has contacted me and I’m not sure how to handle this. This is why I usually choose not to date men I don’t feel at least some physical attraction to. From a lot of posts I have read here, men “do what they want” and don’t feel they have to date women they are *not* physically attracted to. Yet it seems we women have to “settle” in this department in order to find a partner. I don’t know, I guess I’d rather be alone.
Oh dear.. *chuckle*
Love your blog Evan. Will keep dropping in for more dating insights.
Soul how on earth can having an education rip someone of all their beauty?
Barry, you clearly have an issue of sorts with successful women so don’t date them. We don’t want to date men that resent us anyway. The mistake you make is assuming that all successful and intelligent men resent successful intelligent women. That just isn’t true. In the last year I have dated a university professor, an accountant, a teacher, a risk manager, an environmental consultant, an aerospace engineer and a nuclear physicist. They all approached me! Being successful doesn’t make me less pretty, loving or caring than a nurse. It just makes me more successful – that’s it.
There is some truth to Raina # 143
I am submerged in the process of letting myself go on dates with all kinds of guys, and trying to open up to all men that I meet, after my break up. It’s not really a finding Mr Right mission, although that would be wonderful if it happened.
What’s becoming clear to me is that education and income are not important to me, but confidence is *really* important to me, that sense that a guy is his own person, has a mind of his own. I need to, as Raina said, feel safe, be able to be vulnerable and let go. I can’t do this if a guy is always in my energy and desperate to please me by any means necessary. It just makes me annoyed!
Fiona 154: Exactly.
I had to laugh reading #148. If I were a doctor, then, while I was at work in the hospital, I would act like a DOCTOR. I wouldn’t act like a romantic sweetheart. As a patient, I’d run away (if I could) from a doctor who acted like a romantic sweetheart. There is a time and a place for everything. Thoughtfulness is always important, but anyone who expects female doctors to act like receptive sweeties WHILE THEY ARE BEING DOCTORS really needs to get their priorities straight (including their own health care).
We women have other roles in society than to cater to men’s fantasies and to be men’s playthings. Nietzsche may have thought otherwise, but he did go insane, and this is 2012, not the 1800s. Thankfully, to most of the men I know, a happy and fulfilled woman is immensely attractive – it doesn’t matter how successful and strong she is. In fact, women who try TOO hard to please men are the ones who tend to fail.
If my significant other has Pd.D. and I have a Master’s Degree, the credential count would be 3-2 in her favor. If both parties have graduate degrees at that point, is that really a deal breaker?
Helen, the picture you paint is hilarious and it works both ways. If a male doctor were to ask me out while I were lying in a hospital bed I’d be very worried about him as a professional. It sounds like something from a “Carry On” film. I have been asked about by two taxi drivers this year while driving cabs late at night where I was the sole passenger and I was more frightened than flattered to be honest as I was in a vulnerable situation. I wasn’t being receptive by taking a cab – I wanted to get home safely.
Two of my aunts are nurses and they didn’t enjoy advances from patients much when they were doing their jobs either, they weren’t being receptive – they were just doing their job and couldn’t get away! They might have been flattered if a man were someone they found attractive but most of the time those weren’t the guys doing that. We’ve all been there. in my twenties I had a few sleazy older business colleagues make some very inappropriate comments – one along the lines of wanting a blow up picture of me on their wall while another felt it ok at business drinks to ask which man in a bar I would like to give it to me the hardest. Yet another was attempting to play footsie under the table while I was stuck sitting next to him at dinner. On each occasion i wasn’t flattered – I went home feeling very upset. Fortunately, I don’t judge the vast majority of men by the standards of a few sleazy guys.
Mickey, not at all.
There’s none so blind as those who will not see
It seems to me Evan, you have an impossible job.
The characteristics men find attractive in women include compassion, nurturing, supportive, gentleness, happy. Men are not interested in whether women possess degrees in bitchiness.
I do disagree that the views expressed above represent a minority view. To me, they appear entrenched and pervasive and are already taking their toll on relationships.
Only a minority of people are successful. If successful men are happy to date women who are not successful, and successful women will only date successful men, it follows that most successful women will go without. Logic.
Enjoy spinsterhood girls.
True true – theres definitely none so blind as those who will not see.
Thats leads me to men making assumptions about successful women too often and ditching them without even attempting to ask them out or as soon as he thinks his manhood is threatened for some reason.
It all boils down to a mans confidence – way too many times I see joyous pretty loving nurturing and caring women, who forget their work as soon as they close the office door, staying single exactly because a man can’t handle his envy /resentment and whatnots, even if a woman is not concerned about his status whatsoever (and many times in cases when she is not some kind of a CEO, just makes a decent living from what she does).
Since my divorce, I have kept the house we bought 15 years ago. It is a nice 3 BR 2 BA with a LR and a family room with a big spacious yard. We got it for a really good price 15 years ago, and I re-financed during the divorce down to a lower rate. So in actuality, my big house is less expensive than an apartment. Also, I rent out 2 rooms to one room mate, so this house practically costs me nothing.
But I see that uncomfortable look on a man’s face when he comes to pick me up at my house, especially if he lives in an apartment or a smaller house. I couldn’t care less about that, but it obviously makes men uncomfortable. What’s ironic, is there are times when I tire of having to deal with lawn maintenance, house repairs, and upkeep of such a big place, and would like to just move into into a smaller apartment, but I it’s better for me financially to stay in this house. But I am sure the guys I used to date would have felt less uncomfortable if I lived in a smaller apartment alone, than in my big spacious house with a room mate, even tho’ the later is financially cheaper for me.
It is not true that men don’t care about a woman’s educational credentials.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200401/the-new-trophy-wife?page=3
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200630/Not-just-pretty-face-Modern-men-prefer-women-brains-beauty.html
This confirms what I see around me. I live in a European city and I rarely meet couples with a big gap in education level. I don’t think men here like to be with a woman who has less education than they have. It is also very rare that women stop their career when they have children. They prefer to hire a nanny and keep working. If a woman stops working, it is perceived as something negative.
I even wonder if there have been so many times where men were the providers and women stayed at home. I come from a family of entrepreneurs who run small businesses. If I look at the women of the generations before me, they were all active in the business of their husband in one way or another. So I don’t know when these Stepford wives ever existed but it sure was not in my family.
Sorry, Reddy, but if you’d actually read the article you linked to, there were a handful of anecdotes about men who were wowed by smart, strong, successful women. Count me among them. But this isn’t a study that shows that men care about women’s education. It validates everything I say: Of COURSE men like smart women. But that’s not why we STAY with you. And your BRAINS don’t equate to a happy relationship. And that’s what’s amazing about you posting this. You managed to ignore the conclusion on Page 3 of the article, which is all I’ve been talking about:
“Difficulties most often arise not because a man feels emasculated by his wife’s star power (“No one can emasculate you except you,” avows Pak), but because the woman grows disappointed with her partner.
“If a woman is powerful, smart and ambitious, her expectations for her husband, and for the relationship, rise,” says Nando Pelusi, a New York City psychologist who has counseled plenty of alpha-alpha pairings. McCarthy says it’s the primary reason that middle-class marriages fail in the first five years: The woman feels her spouse is not keeping his end of the pact.
And when women feel that their husbands aren’t reaching their earning or emoting potential, men may decide they’ve gotten more than they bargained for. “Men truly want brighter, more articulate, aggressive women. They want to be seen in the world with them. But they also want these women to leave some of it at the doorstep,” says Real. “These guys love their wives. They just haven’t figured out what to do when that strength is channeled toward them.”
Evan, in my opinion these quotes say in the first place that men have to take responsibility to be able to keep up with their accomplished, smart, intelligent women! – “no one can emasculate you except you” – “the woman feels her spouse is not keeping his end of the pact” – “these guys haven’t figured out what to do when that strenght is channeled toward them” So I read this totally different than you. I don’t see flaws of women mentioned here but flaws of men which prompt women to end a relationship. In the couples I know with both an accomplished man and an accomplished woman are couples where the man definitely ALSO loves his woman for her brains. No smart woman will be pleased when her hubby says: “Darling, I love you but I don’t care that you are smart.” We want to be loved as a package, with everything in it. I can only repeat Steve Nakamoto’s advice to men: “get a fresh start, maximize his talents, develop his game, play with more heart, and move up in class.” I read so much frustration here by the men and I think it is basically because so many men have low selfesteem and expect a woman to build it up. But no one can do that for you and I think an accomplished woman simply does not want to try that because it is mission impossible anyway. The guy who preferred the nurses over the doctors is a good example of this. Why does he prefer the caring nurses? Because it is all about him and about women who confirm his value and by the nature of their job, nurses play a more caring affirmative role for a patient. But he is not interested in them as persons, he is just interested in what they can offer him. The thing is that in a hospital the responsiblity of the doctor is bigger so she probably has less time to give him a smile and provide some human interaction. A confident man understands this and does not have a bruised ego when an interaction with a woman is merely professional. Ultimately, men can keep wanting and needing what they want and need. If you are financially independent as a woman, you are not obliged to give that to them if you have the feeling that it means playing the obedient wifey who looks up in admiration to her hubby. This is 2012.
Reddy, I will remind you that I give advice to women. You keep telling me what MEN can change. That’s not what I’m here for.
So you’re wasting your time telling me what men can do. You may be right. It’s not my mandate. What can YOU do that will help you find true love?
And I’ll tell you for the final time: the second you start showing admiration and caring to your man is the second you will connect with him. You seem to look down on nurses and, by extension, women who admire and care for their husbands. Yet, I’m telling you, this is PRIMARILY what we want in a partner. You can’t tell me that I’m wrong. You can only tell me that YOU don’t want to be this way, even though it costs you NOTHING. You can BE educated and successful and ALSO admire and care for your husband. That point seems to have eluded you.
Reddy #163
Either you are arguing just for the sake of arguing (which is extremely annoying and totally unattractive for a (smart))
or….
you just don’t get it, i.e. you do not understand the nuances….
Evan, once again you read things in my post which are not there so these things come from you, not from me. I don’t look down on nurses at all and that is nowhere written in my post! I look down on the man who automatically presumes that the nurses are so much kinder and warmer than the female doctors on the basis of how they interact with him in an environment where both are simply doing their – different – job.
I get that you give advice here to men but I and other women are telling you that it does not work for us. I know most “dating doctors” are speaking to women about what they have to do to make a man love them, which is because women are more inclined to look for advice and to do some introspection. I think every mature human being is capable of introspection and change, also men, so why should women do all the heavy lifting?
A man has to earn my admiration and caring and unfortunately I meet very few who do. I read what you wrote on the website of Rory Raye and it made my hair stand up how you listed all your bad characteristics and went on to tell how your wife was cool about them. I can more or less imagine what kind of person you are, you are probably very witty and entertaining but also pretty selfish and arrogant. Now your wife is cool about it. But when I meet a guy like you he does not awaken admiration and caring.
I think men often don’t get admiration and caring because they don’t make women like giving it. I will in any case not give it to a man who comes across as selfish.
@Reddy – This is the last I’m going to post in response to you. You will not be allowed to respond in return:
You said a few things that were completely wrong, but one thing that was completely right.
What you got wrong:
“Why should women do all the heavy lifting?” I’ve not once said that there aren’t a hundred things that men can do to improve in relationships. But if we go down that road, what exactly does this mean? It means understanding women – what they want, what they need, what makes them feel safe, heard and understood. Right?
So my advice to you is how to understand men – what they want, what they need, what makes them feels safe, heard and understood. And the evidence is in. Men want women who MAKE THEM FEEL GOOD.
Which is why your sarcastic statement, “But he is not interested in them as persons, he is just interested in what they can offer him” is literally the ONLY thing you have gotten right so far.
Kudos.
Now, as for the insulting part of your last post: “I read what you wrote on the website of Rory Raye and it made my hair stand up how you listed all your bad characteristics and went on to tell how your wife was cool about them. I can more or less imagine what kind of person you are, you are probably very witty and entertaining but also pretty selfish and arrogant. Now your wife is cool about it. But when I meet a guy like you he does not awaken admiration and caring.”
You can’t imagine anything about me, you ignoramus.
I was up since 7am with my two year old daughter while my wife slept.
When she woke up at 10, I held my newborn son for a half-hour while my wife put on her makeup.
Selfish, I know.
The only way I’m arrogant is in presuming that I know what men want from partners – and yes, I get pretty pissy when a woman tells me that I’m WRONG – that men ACTUALLY want women who are difficult, cold, argumentative, and clueless about how to make a man happy. I’m arrogant about doing what I do for a living because I’ve been doing it for ten years and I’m really successful at it. And then, I’m supposed to be a bigger person by accepting your insults on my blog? Please.
But before I go (and you do, too), one piece of dating advice:
My wife – by accepting and loving me despite my flaws – gets the most passionately devoted husband and father in the entire world. She feels safe, heard, and understood. She feels loved, cherished and beautiful. She knows that I’m never going to leave her and that I will do anything in my power to provide for my family. This is what you clearly don’t get, Reddy – that the key to connecting with men is to love, accept, and support them – not endlessly criticize them because they don’t meet up to your standards.
I’m in a happy marriage and I give relationship advice that has helped thousands of women around the world find love.
If you don’t want to listen, go find a blog that validates your world view that the secret to relationships is for men to start valuing difficult women, which seems to be all that you’re advocating.
Once again, no need to reply. This is my house and you’ve been impolite to your host and his wife.
Evan,
You’re a frickin’ badass.
I am a pastor who’s still learning to disintegrate her pride and continue to love my husband for who he is. It’s an ongoing battle-pride and self-centerdness are destructive things. But there is hope and I appreciate the no-nonsense way you monitor comments and defend your stance.
Keep up the good work!
PS. Though it is a distinctly Christian perspective, the first chapter of the book The Meaning of Marriage by Timothy Keller is one of the most insightful reflections on why so many of us don’t find lasting love. That book is the reason I decided to marry my very “off the checklist” boyfriend. I still can’t believe I almost missed out on him.
Peace!
Thank you. Being called a frickin’ badass by a Christian pastor is about as high a compliment I can ever hope to receive. Appreciate your worldview and believe, despite my atheism, that religion has a lot of great lessons for us, especially in terms of humility and compassion.
Reddy, I think the point that Evan is making is that we all have flaws and in the end we all have to compromise somehow. It is up to each individual to decide what they are prepared to compromise on e.g. an ultra religious person may have stringent requirements on religion, a smart woman may have stringent requirements on intelligence but be a bit more relaxed about age, nationality etc.
Reddy. I think you’ll continue to believe what you want to believe. However in my circle of friends successful men are not having problems finding women to date or marry. So much so that a good deal of them are not in a hurry to marry even as they approach their 40’s. I don’t think men or women are at fault. But if things aren’t working it would seem you can do one of two things. Somehow change the mindset of everyone else to get your desired result. Or change your own.
I asked a successful friend if he would marry an alpha female. (He’s married to a Montessori teacher.) He said no. He wants someone to complement him. Someone that brings something different to the table. Someone he won’t have to schedule time to be with. I think that’s part of the problem. Successful men are looking for their better half. Not their mirror image.
So much of this discussion has centred around “success” and “successful women”. I know success is subjective and different for each person but in general, I’m curious to know what most of you define as success. Annual income over 100K? Over 200K? More? Having advanced degrees? I’m just trying to establish a general baseline for the discussion surrounding successful women.
@RW – There is no general baseline except for this:
If a woman makes $100K, her husband has to make more.
If a woman makes over $200K, her husband has to make more.
If a woman has a Masters degree, her husband has to have at least a Masters degree.
And so on.
Men are not burdened by these problems, because we choose women not for their degrees or money but because of how women make us feel – trusted, noble, sexy, funny. And if you give TED talks and rake in a million a year, it’s just an added bonus.
Morris, I find such comments simply unhelpful. As a successful woman I am a little tired of being told successful woman aren’t going to bring something to the table. Utter nonsense I’m afraid and for every successful guy that automatically assumes we won’t without trying thankfully there is one that doesn’t make silly assumptions.
@Goldie #60 “So do you like it here in the US or would you rather go back home?” Not proud of my reaction, I told him I had to go, said good-bye and hung up, because I really didn’t know what to say to this.”
This seems to me to be a natural interest, if somewhat awkwardly worded question. I’d probably just answer it in a matter-of-fact way: “I’m now an American citizen so I think of the U.S. as my home. I’ve lived here for 15 years [or however long] and I plan to spend the rest of my life here but I visit [birth country] every three or four years [or whenever] Is all of your family from?[guy’s city]
Evan I think 172 shows just how subjective success is. I know some women who do define success that way.
My definition is probably a bit wider as I tend to define success by reference to the general population e.g. I would see an army captain as a fairly successful educated person although he probably earns a fair bit less than me and is less likely to have a Masters. My definition of success does not mean that someone should be a CEO.
I would love to say that all that should matter is how a man makes you feel. Perhaps I am just practical but money issues do seem to be the main cause of divorce and I just can’t see how people make things work on very low incomes without a lot of worry.
Fiona, there is no advice in the world that would apply to every person in the world. Sorry you don’t find it helpful. But just to be clear. I never said successful women don’t bring something to the table. They clearly do. All I’m saying is that to many successful men your degrees and financial success don’t play nearly as big a role as successful women think it should or wish it did. That’s just the way it is.
It’s the OTHER things you bring to the table that will attract him. If you have the other qualities he desires I’m sure your degrees and financial success will just be icing on the cake.
I think it irks many successful woman that given two kind, loving, funny and intelligent woman. If one was also young and pretty while the other was financially successful with a degree from a prestigious college. A successful man would probably choose the young and pretty one. Men and women value many of the same things. We also value some different things. Deal with it.
I would never ask you or any other successful woman to compromise. I would never ask a successful man to compromise either. Heck I wouldn’t tell anyone to compromise. Know your competition. Know what your ideal person wants. Know supply and demand. If for some reason your criteria creates a small pool of eligible people. Man/woman-up and live with results. If you want to change the results you can either change so YOU have the values THEY want. Or you can change your criteria to expand your pool of eligible people. It’s not rocket science.
#110 Ruby– re: men on dating sites who list the education level they prefer in women, yeah I do think men are more wary of being seen as a financial caretaker these days. It is also possible these men would choose a woman with a degree who embraces her feminine energy over one who isn’t educated and equally embraces her feminine side, since they would see the education as a bonus. But they won’t fall in love with women because of their degree. So there’s still a chance that the guy who says in his profile that a woman must have her masters and a certain income could end up with one who has her bachelors and lower income, if he feels better around her than the one with the masters, even though his profile asked for a “masters”.
Re compromise: I don’t feel it’s necessary to date whomever regardless of profession so I really don’t see myself ending up with a laundry guy. But think of it this way, one of my friends married a construction worker, while she has a high profile federal job as a civil engineer, and manages several projects for the city. But she lets him be a man, and he lets her be a woman, that’s why they are still together. She doesn’t try to run him like she runs things at work and he makes her feel safe. The guy also happens to be pretty good looking, plus he has the alpha masculine energy that most of us women desire, intelligent and he’s hardworking. His income is lower than hers but he doesn’t leave it up to her to take care of everything. And despite the fact they have different education levels, they have a lot of shared values and support each other. She’s the type of woman who never had trouble finding a boyfriend despite her success and large income. She didn’t have to do the “dating game” a lot because while she’s extremely confident and successful, she’s open and naturally knows how to embrace her feminine playful side around men.
the point in compromise is to just see how things turn out when we let go of some of that “checklist”. Compromise doesn’t mean we have a masters degree but should settle for the chronically unemployed dude who plays video games all day, lives in his mother’s basement and has no direction in life. lol There’s the the grey area between the black and white..which seems to be missed in a lot of these posts. I’ve seen it happen so many times, that once we test the waters and try men they wouldn’t have dated because of that particular item on the checklist, we are more likely to find someone meant to be.
I don’t understand why it’s to so difficult to understand that men want to be loved and cherished. That’s what I want for myself. I find that message reassuring, not threatening. If I love and cherish my boyfriend we will build a connection that can’t be just thrown away and replaced.
if someone is with you for your looks, or job or whatever, surely that puts you in a very insecure position. There will always be someone more intelligent, more beautiful, more successful, or younger. If not today, tomorrow. If not tomorrow, then ten years.
why fight for that? (and so unpleasantly!)
Can’t help but wonder what Evan’s take is on the whole General Petraeus affair. The younger woman is not only beautiful, but an overachiever and reputedly very aggressive and ambitious.
There’s not much that anyone can say about the Petraeus affair because a) we don’t really know anything and b) one incident doesn’t necessarily mean much of anything.
However, this aggressive, ambitious woman fell in love with the general and presumably made him feel like a Greek God. One review of the book said just as much – something to the effect of “It’s not whether Petraeus was perfect, but whether he was super perfect!” Then again, after 37 years with one woman and years abroad, one can certainly make logical sense of a 60-year-old man being receptive to the advances of an impressive, beautiful younger woman.
Either way, it’s unfortunate that a man who appeared to have such upstanding morals is just like the rest of the big name politicians/athletes/actors/rock stars.
I don’t think it can/should shed much light on this argument – which has already been twisted beyond recognition by a few posters. Yes, men DO like brilliant, accomplished women. I spent 15 years chasing them myself. Then I realized that it didn’t MEAN very much in terms of my happiness. Same way a rich, charismatic man isn’t necessarily a good HUSBAND. Who IS a good husband? The guy who picks up on his wife’s emotional cues and helps with the housework and the childrearing – not the guy who necessarily is the most impressive. This isn’t even a debate at this point. Which is why it’s so tiring. Looks and money are just attractive shiny qualities; they say nothing about what kind of partner someone is. And if you chase them – whether you’re a man or a woman – at the expense of values and ethics and sensitivity – you’re aiming for a heartbreak.
Anyway, I get depressed reading this blog/comments. Not because of Evan, who I believe is a very kind person, but because of the mostly male and some of the female comments here. I have seen how they have beaten up on the 30-something Fiona. I can only imagine how they would bea t up on me at 50+! LOL Has anyone here really tried to think outside the box? Some people look great at 60 and some are old at 25.
Nic, I admire your openness. But I envision you as a hot blonde 20 or 30 something. Hence, the neurosurgeon. No offense. It is not your fault
I still don’t think reddy was in any kind of wrong. Maybe banning her from responding is a way of not listening to what her legitimate points were. Basically, American men don’t care about education level from what EMK says – but I don’t think that’s really true and I find that to be very insulting of men. Trust me, in East Indian communities, it matters a lot – yes, even the woman’s educational attainment. So, the men just wanting cute, feminine and uncold is more of an American and Western thing in my experience than it is a catch-call description of all men. Besides, I met my husband without doing online dating; he was 37 when we met and I was 33 (I’m now 35).
@Raina – If I didn’t tolerate dissent on here, this blog wouldn’t have 37,000 comments on it. No, the only thing I don’t tolerate are personal insults…
Reddy to Evan:
“Could this evaluation of yours possibly have something to do with the fact that these women were not interested in you? Or wanted an equal relationship without having to look at you in admiration and having to stroke your ego?”
“I read what you wrote on the website of Rory Raye and it made my hair stand up how you listed all your bad characteristics and went on to tell how your wife was cool about them. I can more or less imagine what kind of person you are, you are probably very witty and entertaining but also pretty selfish and arrogant.”
Evan to Reddy:
Goodbye.
Morris the fact that you have a successful friend who is married to a Montessori teacher and says he wouldn’t have married an alpha female is irrelevant. The guy is married and it may surprise you to hear that I couldn’t be happier that guys with such attitudes are off the market. Why would I want someone who doesn’t like successful women anyway?
Where Evan I think gets it wrong is to think that money is not important. Only people who have money or come from money usually think that. I have seen what happens to people with no money first hand. Many lead utterly miserable lives and I don’t want that for myself ever hence the fact that I have worked hard to avoid that. Call me shallow if you wish – I call it practical.
In all seriousness I see no evidence that the majority of uneducated men are more interested in me than their educated counterparts. Many of them are of course interested in a sexual way as are a lot of men but that is about it. They usually figure out after about five minutes of conversation as do I that we are incompatible.
Finally, yes we all try to make men feel good – this is a no brainer, My point is that this has nothing to do with being more successful. A really good man in my view isn’t gong to have an issue with a woman being successful either. Of those that do, I would suggest they aren’t worth bothering with and the less successful women they end up with had better watch out if one day they decide they want to do more with their lives.
EMK
I totally agree with you
@ marymary 177, exactly I don’t understand the women who act like they are making themselves “weak” by making a man feel loved, respecting him and being supportive, so they rather criticize his every move rather than encourage him. These women feel entitled to a man who makes them feel like queen but making a man feel loved strikes a nerve with them. It goes both ways.
@Aisling, Reddy, Fiona
You’re not getting it. It’s not that men don’t “don’t care” about your degrees or success, it’s simply that they don’t VALUE your degrees and success the same way YOU value them, whether in yourself or in the man.
What a man VALUES is how he FEELS WHEN YOU ARE WITH HIM. Do you make him feel GOOD about himself? Or do you DRAG HIM DOWN? Do you truly APPRECIATE him as a HUMAN BEING first rather than the as a “successful man” first? Do you see his humanity? Do you understand his vulnerabilities? Do you NURTURE him with positive emotions and attitude, so that he feels that only with you can he be free to be himself AND also conquer the world — and if he doesn’t succeed, you’ll still “be there for him”, that he is still your hero?
That is what a man VALUES. Your success and your degrees don’t help him feel this way.
This doesn’t mean playing games and kissing up to him (althought it does sometimes mean stroking his ego – just woman-up and do it. Men cater to our need for romance the same way). It means really and truly seeing through to the heart and soul of the man. If and when you do, you’ll find that MOST men are worthy of your appreciation, admiration, and respect, whether they are alaundry worker or a CEO.
Whether the man is an alpha, beta, or omega, you will earn his undying devotion if you can make HIM feel safe, appreciated, admired, respected, heroic even. And if you make HIM feel all that, you win…his heart, his mind, his devotion, his commitment.
It’s kind of a Murphy’s Law, the more you need a man to admire YOU, the less likely you are to get it; the more YOU admire a man, the more he admires you. The hardest part is to make him feel all that without becoming a clingy doormat.
Aisling. No need to get depressed. At least for my post I was referring to people who arbitrary limit their dating pool to 1% of the population and get upset that that 1% isn’t interested in them.
Fiona. At the end of the day the men you seek are out there. I just wanted you to understand you’ve made it hard on yourself with your criteria. The small dating pool of educated, successful, attractive(to you at least), kind men have their pick of just about any women they want. If you don’t have children and want a family you’ll have to consider said man will also be considering age in his criteria as well. You’ll have to be his ideal woman as much as he is your ideal man. Good luck.
Fiona, I have to disagree with you on the money issue. It’s not nearly as much about the amount someone makes, as how they handle it. I’ll out myself for example. I have a Master’s Degree, and yet have never made more than 30K a year. Now, you might say I’m unsuccessful and that my finances are a red flag. But consider. I’m currently the head of one non-profit’s board or directors, was a founding member of another non-profit, and am a published author. Yes, I’m not the norm, but let’s move past that to look at the more important issue here. Being on the lower end of middle class doesn’t equal living miserably. I’m not in debt, nor do I fritter money away needlessly. Most of my friends are doing just fine as well, despite not making anywhere near six figures. My guess is that the majority of those you see as living miserable lives are folks with poor financial habits, which is entirely different from not having a high income. You’re selectively ignoring the fact that plenty of folks who have high power jobs, or are well off through inheritance, also burn through money like there’s no tomorrow.
That’s one of the more subtle points of what Evan is talking about here. It’s not money that’s important; it’s about how one spends it and takes care of it. If you are concerned about divorce, it’s a hell of a lot more important to look at someone’s spending and saving habits. But that takes time, and frankly, the majority of folks are so in a rush, that they’d rather use faulty filters like arbitrary income cutoffs than take a risk on someone who might be an excellent partner.
Fiona
You want a man who is rich and well-educated. That’s your perogative. But as you’ve said yourself, you can’t seem to find such a man (who is suitable. Evidently, you’ve dated a few such men but it hasn’t worked out their attributes notwithstanding). We suggest widening the net and refocusing on things that are “obvious” and a “no-brainer” such as his character, integrity, and kindness (which apparently are so abundant there’s no need to specifically search for them). You think we’re telling you to date a poverty stricken illiterate who is a nice person.
I’m at a loss as to what you want us to say to you. But I’m intrigued as to what it might be.
We should not confuse successful with educated, and this thread was about educational level. Educational level does not equal success in life but it often comes with it. But not always. I personally find the educational level important, apart from the being yes or no succesful of a man.
I think that a woman who makes let’s say 60 K prefers to be with a guy whose standard of living is not too much below hers because she knows that if it is, it will make her poorer (just like having a woman who earns significantly less makes a man poorer) coz before she had her salary for herself and now she has to share it. Will she still be able to have 2 holidays a year and regularly have dinner in a nice restaurant if she has to pay for her man as well? OK, men have been supporting women but 1) most of the time they earn a lot more than women 2) the woman usually cooks and cleans for them, does their laundry, raises there children. I know couples where the woman has to support the man and on top of that she also has to do all the household chores. That’s modern slavery in my eyes.
Fiona is right: money is important. It is a difference to find a partner who has his/her own home than one who doesn’t (I am not talking about 25 year olds who are to young to possess their own home) for example. If you have a partner who is in serious debt, it will certainly affect your relationship.
@Foxie
Money isn’t important, but rather, as Nathan has indicated, make sure that you and your partner are responsible with money. If neither of you are, then yes, I guess, one of you will need to make lots of money.
However, why would you even choose a partner with poor money habits? Or actually, I would say that, don’t marry anyone with poor money habits. They may make good boyfriends, but certainly not good marriage material.
If you make more money than your partner, then make sure you have an ironclad prenup to protect your wealth.
There are ways around the money issue that doesn’t require a man to make X amount of money. In my opinion, if this is a deal breaker, then you are mighty shallow indeed.
Where did this delusion, that women can have it all come from ?
This whole topic has hit a raw nerve, because so many have bought into the lie.
And yes it really is just about the money. Education is merely a cover.
What is does mean is that there is no longer “a lid for every pot” because so many are rejecting the lids that fit in favour of waiting for one that is covered in gold.
This is a tragedy of epic proportions.
Two thumbs up, Barry.
Evan,
Will you consider censoring Barry please, or have a chat with him? His language towards women is so attacking, I’m not sure how the other women on this blog can stand it. For me, it’s making the blog kind of an unpleasant place and I’m considering leaving.
I was going to delete your post, Clare, because it’s not your place to police my blog comments. But I let it through for the obvious purpose of being a teachable moment.
You want me to censor Barry for saying too aggressively that women are too hung up on money – even though he hasn’t attacked you personally or insulted you personally. Sorry, no can do.
The same tone that you’re receiving from Barry is the one that I get from dozens of women in this comments section – you know – the ones who complain that men are the problem, men should change, men have no integrity, men are too interested in sex, youth and beauty, men are cheaters, men are liars, men are poor communicators.
I don’t recall you asking me to censor those women’s posts as they attacked men (including me).
I can either censor EVERYBODY who speaks in one-sided strongly worded tones or I should censor ONLY the people who turn attacks into something personal. I’ve been doing the latter for years. But the former is the debate that keeps this blog compelling – however much you (and I) find it agitating.
Personally, I think Barry can stand to soften his tone, but I don’t disagree that much with his message.
And I’ll observe what you’ve probably already observed, Clare: you’re far more attuned to insults directed at women than you are at insults directed at men.
Evan,
I don’t think Clare was wrong in her request. I find your response to her to be unnecessarily harsh. Plus you are making assumptions about her being more attuned to insults directed at women without considering what we as readers see/experience on this blog. I happened upon this blog by chance and I was shocked at how unkind some of your words and the words of many of the male posters were to these women who have been unsuccessful at love. I think you guys are taking advantage of these women’s situations. You feel like if they haven’t or can’t find husbands then its okay to beat up on them because they don’t agree with you or they simply don’t understand your point of views. When you were “insulted” you defended yourself and also censored the poster, so Clare doesn’t need to ask that you censor that person; you are clearly capable of defending yourself. You are also missing that Clare is a “woman” and we respond better and see the “good” in advice when it is communicated with gentler, kinder words and Barry’s was not. Many women do not like to be compared to inanimate objects such as his “lid and pot” comments. It is insulting and sad you thought you needed to censor Clare but not Barry. Lastly, Reddy didn’t actually insult you with her post you only decided to take offense to it. She stated she “imagined” what you were like, and said what you were you were “probably” like. Based on your responses to Reddy and Clare I feel you are way too sensitive to insults directed at you and really do have some of the selfish, self-centered characteristics and probably the arrogance your were accused of. Those aren’t really insults but characteristics that I agree you are displaying with some of your posts. It may not be “who” you are but your comments at times make it seem like it “could” fit. Maybe you didn’t like them being pointed out but that does make them untrue. You even mentioned that you think taking care of your own kids in the mornings so your wife can sleep disproves this, but no, not necessarily. You can be a good father, maybe a good husband while also being selfish, self-centered and arrogant. Good father/husband does not have to be mutually exclusive of selfishness or arrogance. Your wife just tolerates you or better yet accepts you and loves you still. So to sum up what I’m saying, perhaps you should do what you are asking these women to do; do not totally dismiss/censor what people are saying to you and understand that some people are harsh, crude and kind of rude. If you would censor a poster because you believe they are insulting to you then please also censor some of the posters that are insulting to women because more so this blog is to help WOMEN find men not help men to insult the women that can’t find men. The insults that women hurl at men are appropriate to be viewed here but if she is in fact wrong, correct her don’t censor her. Men’s insults to women have no place on this particular blog. If this was for men needing help finding women then their utterly disgusting complaints, analogies and comparisons and insults should be placed there. Yes, I understand that these women are here looking for “help” and you are not but if you are helping them you have to know that they will also want to share their experience of you as well and this might also help you learn how to get through to them. Some of them seemed like they could use more patience and encouragement to “understand” where they are going wrong. Just like you, if the women feel insulted or verbally attacked they will feel like most of what you say can be dismissed and not considered any further because it coming from an arrogant, rude person. Being honest with women does not mean beating up on them. This is another way that women in fact are different from men; brutal honesty is not as good as kind honesty. And if it matters, I am an educated, successful and married woman and while I am not looking for a husband I found this blog very interesting to a point. Thought I could share this blog with a couple of my unmarried friends but I can’t because I think the way this blog presents men by their comments and insults is bitter, insulting, uncaring, selfish and underachieving. My friends too happen to be successful and educated women and there is quite frankly no way I could convince them to lower their “standards” for date-able men if I spoke to them so crudely or showed them a blog that helped to perpetuate their already low view of most of the so-called available men. Good luck to all you women out there 🙂
AliPat said:
“The insults that women hurl at men are appropriate to be viewed here but if she is in fact wrong, correct her don’t censor her. Men’s insults to women have no place on this particular blog.”
I just wanted to highlight the blatant double standard. I think it does a good job of refuting itself without any additional input from me.
@Fiona
Finally, yes we all try to make men feel good — this is a no brainer, My point is that this has nothing to do with being more successful. A really good man in my view isn’t gong to have an issue with a woman being successful either.
EXACTLY. Your success has nothing to do with making a man feel good, so your success matters little to a man seeking a mate. You keep forgetting that what matters to YOU may not matter to a man.
Of those that do, I would suggest they aren’t worth bothering with and the less successful women they end up with had better watch out if one day they decide they want to do more with their lives.
Dream on, Fiona. A man who marries a woman for her beauty isn’t going to wake up one day wishing she were successful. What he may do is dump her if he married her for her beauty and he wakes up one day thinking she looks like a hag. Again, you are projecting YOUR fears and desires into a man. A man doesn’t want what a WOMAN wants, a man wants what a MAN wants.
Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus is more than just about communication styles. Men seek and value qualities in a woman DIFFERENTLY than what a woman values in a man. If you don’t get this as “intelligent” and as “educated” as you tout yourself to be…you are actually proving a point, though unintentionally. A person can be intelligent and educated and be male-female-dynamic-stupid. So don’t you think that leaves open the possibility that someone not “having gone to university” can be smart and intelligent? Male-female dynamic-wise or just about life in general?
Be real and call a spade a spade, what you may want is to marry someone RICH, someone SOPHISTICATED, someone ATTRACTIVE. The problem is that guy, while he exists can doesn’t WANT OR NEED a successful woman to make him happy. Most likely, he wants, young, nubile, sweet, and supportive. Even if you were to qualify for the sweet and supportive qualities, young and nubile you are not.
And lastly, all those alpha men, who ARE rich, sophisticated, well traveled, but already married…Guess what? He didn’t come out of the womb that way. Once upon a time, he may have been a laundry worker and the woman he married believed in him and supported him to become the man he is today.
Evan, thank you for being on top of the comments and your approach towards “censorship”. As an aside, I’d be very curious to read some of your hate mail (emails or deleted comments).
Apologies Evan, I did not mean to overstep, I’m very sorry if I was coming across as trying to police. It was not my intention.
I guess it got to me a little and felt a little personal because I am a woman and I feel Barry has us completely wrong, and because of the language he uses.
Guess I could stand to toughen up a little, or maybe not come here so much 😉
Sorry again.
By the way, sorry, for what it’s worth, I feel very sad when women attack men here too.
Those type of women are very Ignorant anyway.
I don’t think that commenters disagree that much in the end. Yes we want a partner of compatible intelligence and lifestyle. Duh! Such couple fare better indeed. However, when common sense becomes a rigid list of requirements it’s no longer a preference issue but a character issue. The preferences might be legitimate, but the underlying problem is the attitude behind justifying them. Entitlement, shallowness, unflexibility, judgement, etc. are NOT compatible with a life-long relationship. It will fail before the fifth anniversary.
Now, when I read some commenter’s “checklists”, I found myself nodding. The thing is, I never had to define those preferences as requirements. No man of low-education ever approached me. Very few of very low-income level have. Of course manual laborers eye me (hey, men are looking for sex…), but they do not approach me and are unlikely to desire forming a relationship with me. They indeed have their own requirements for “lower-educated, not too ambitious, fan of video games” kind of women. They also look for the lid to their own pot.
Regarding the debate about what men prefer. A hot waitress or an educated woman? Well, first off, it’s getting tiresome to think of men as “one kind”. They come in all kinds of flavors. Like women. Yes, they have some commons traits. Most men are driven by lust and therefore look for sex first. But ultimately some will not want to enter a marriage, some will, some will prioritize looks, some will prioritize earning potential, and others something else. Just like most women.
However, the most desirable man who want to be married has options, just like the most desirable woman has options as well (What makes them desirable to the other gender is just different). In the 1950s, the best option for a successful man was a good-looking young lady from a good family, definitely virgin, and decently educated in homemaking skills. He would go for the best of what was available at that time. Nowadays the same man can also add advanced education, income level, and personal realization to the list. Women have access to education and more career options, and some can offer modern qualifications on the top of more traditional skills.
Therefore, what do men prefer? Well, in order to ask you out, he wants you to be hot enough. In order to date you, he wants to feel good around you. To marry you, he needs you to be hot enough, to make him feel great, and he wants you to bring other things to the table, things that will depend on his individual preferences.
There is no way around looks and making him feel good. That’s the only way to get the foot in the door. But for marriage to a desirable man, you got to bring much more to the table. So yes, education will matter at the point.
Good luck with trying to make your education credentials or wealth compensate for average looks, older age, and poor attitude. But good luck as well trying to marry a successful man if all you bring is a young hot body and a feel-good-anout-himself feeling. The most desirable men want the whole package. Some women can offer it.
Karmic equation # 194 said
“Once upon a time, he may have been a laundry worker and the woman he married believed in him and supported him to become the man he is today.”
Yes, Yes, Yes !!!
Clare #193
I am a female, and I do not feel insulted by Barry’s comments at all. Sorry. Coming from a lower middle class background, I, as a human being, feel more insulted when someone says he or she wouldn’t consider dating a laundry guy/female (and I have a 6-figure income).
@ Fusee #199: I disagree slightly. I don’t really think it’s education that matters as much as intelligent. Being formally well-educated doesn’t necessarily make one intelligent, and one needn’t be well-educated to be intelligent.
@Joe #201: I agree with the distinction. Please replace “education” by “intelligence” in my former comment #199. However I believe that some men – exactly like some women – overvalue education credentials and equate them with intelligence, which is of course foolish. (in the last 12 years I’ve spent 8+ hours/day with PhDs or future PhDs , therefore know very well that degrees do not correlate with intelligence, and even less with wisdom!)
+1 @Joe 201 and @ Soul 200
Fusee said:
“Yes we want a partner of compatible intelligence and lifestyle. Duh! Such couple fare better indeed.”
Exactly!
Marymary, I have only been settled back in the UK for a year after years of moving around abroad so it may take a bit longer to find the right guy than that. i know that kindness, character and integrity are important. I would say this is a prerequisite. I do not however think that a guy who is kind, has character and integrity but lacks intelligence or ambition is right for me. I don’t enjoy spending time with unintelligent men so I am never going to marry one. Contrary to what you think I am not looking at men who are “rich” but I am not considering men who are poor with few life prospects either. i have a good life. At times it has been hard and rarely uneventful but I wouldn’t have it any other way. I’ve been to places and done things I never even dreamed of being able to do growing up – that spirit of adventure will always be there. It would be nice to have a likeminded partner to share new adventures with (especially if I am not able to have children for any reason) but better to venture out into the world alone than not to venture out at all.
Clare, I find what Barry writes on this blog hostile too (mainly towards me). For that reason, I try to keep my dealings with such men to a minimum in real life because frankly I don’t enjoy being berated by people for the sake of it and also i can’t win. I can tell him smart men approach me often (which suggests I am not a 4) and he will insist they don’t and that I’m a 4.
Karmic, i absolutely understand that what men care about is how I make them feel. As I feel better around smart men myself it is a lot easier for me to make smart men feel good because I am not having to pretend.
Soul, some people will always be offended that a lawyer doesn’t want to date a laundry man. Such is life – you can’t please everyone. The laundry guy in question was not the man for me. I wish him well.
#179
Hi Aisling, Don’t get depressed. Neuro-surgeon and I are both 30-something. I am not blonde. I do, however, fantasize being statuesque blonde sometimes (I think they have more fun =) ) But I have learned to embrace my multi-racial roots (half Asian, 25% Castillian Spanish and 25% French), brunette, dark eyes, petite frame at 5’2″ 95 lbs. I always wanted to be taller and broke my ankle wearing one of those 4″ stiletto. I gave them up. Now when someone says “There. Is. Little bit,” I smile and take it as compliment. Dating a neuro-surgeon is a compromise. His job is his lifestyle. He works 60-80 hours/week and on-call every other weekend without much sleep. I have to ask myself, is this what I want for the long haul. I don’t know the answer to that yet.
On that note, prompted by this thread, I asked current beau (neuro-surgeon) and my ex-BF (attorney) both well educated and successful (agree on Evan’s definition above), why me? Neuro-surgeon states, because “when I have a challenging case you are outside the OR cheering me on, telling me I am brilliant!” And the attorney who calls every 2 weeks to check if I am happy, reports, because every time I break a bone car racing or something, you are always there with orthopedic consult and you watch out for me. Does it mean I am a doormat? i asked. They both said, oh no! You are a one liner. That is it. Now, why do I keep reading Evan’s blog. The allure of a badder Alpha Male is. Sometimes. Irresistible. Was it Woody Allen who once said– the heart wants what the heart wants. Evan keeps me in line.
I gotta go with EMK on this. I dated a less educated, less “successful” guy for a few months. I grew to love him. It didn’t work out but I would have built a future with him, had he wanted it.
Thank you for the support Soul.
Also congrats to Marymary whose comments are inspirational.
And to those who cannot, will not lower their demands for success in a mate, I ask the question I raised before, and which was conveniently ignored.
What happens when the successful man you marry becomes ill and cannot work ? Or whose skills are no longer required ?
Karmic #186 wrote: “It’s kind of a Murphy’s Law, the more you need a man to admire YOU, the less likely you are to get it; the more YOU admire a man, the more he admires you.”
Um, with all due respect, no.
I agree with the first part – it never works to try to force a man to admire you. But admiring him, putting him on a pedestal, does not lead him to admire you. It makes him look down on you. Evan wrote about that himself in another entry (“The Pedestal Principle”), and I’ve seen this borne out again and again in my workplace.
Although I don’t believe it’s possible to “force” men to do anything, I do see that what makes a man more likely to admire a woman is if she does NOT fawn all over him, but is confident and assured in herself, and pleasant company. If he tries irking her or pushing her buttons, he’ll admire her if she responds with calm self-respect and a refusal to be belittled. Self-respect and good manners, no matter what degrees or accomplishments one has and no matter what one’s gender, are universally admirable.
Fiona, what does it mean for a guy to lack ambition?
Which guy lacks ambition more: the CEO who spends all his time at the office, or the middle manager who comes home every evening to his wife and kids?
@Fiona
I didn’t know you were an attorney. That kind of changes what I think about your requirements.
My best friend (male) is a partner in a lawfirm and we talk regularly. I think that lawfirms are one of the last bastions of the “good ol’ boys club” — and a woman being successful in that particular profession deserves many kudos. You have to be twice as successful to attain half the respect that a man would.
Before I knew your profession, I started a glib post that you should just be happy with the handsomest boy-toy you can handle. But if you are a lawyer that is out as an option. Image is part of the profession, right?
So, here’s a new thought…If you can, you should try to date men in “manly” professions that your colleagues would envy…e.g., race car driver, captain of the green berets, a professional athlete, etc. This would satisfy both your need for an alpha male and have someone to go to functions with that could hold his own with your colleagues. The problem is, could and would any of those guys marry you?
Honestly, I think a successful female lawyer in her late 30’s who isn’t already in an LTR is going to have a very tough time. A lot of “successful” men get successful having sometimes done something on the outer edges of the law and having a lawyer GF would be uncomfortable for them. Other men would probably be intimidated by the specific kind of intellect that belongs to a lawyer.
Were I you, I think you might just want to readjust the checklist from “intelligent” to “sharp-witted” from “successful” to “male-enviable profession” or something like that. I think you’d both expand your dating pool and have a lot more fun 🙂
Good luck.
Women are not expected to date men with lower educational level. But, you are encouraged, to be open to other horizons.
I have met plenty of people that have attended uni, are none the wiser, use like in every other sentence and dig the tabloids.
I have also met plenty of drop-outs who are fascinatingly very smart, love the news, current affairs, and conversing with them is fabulous.
I have also met scholars who ended up working in trades because it would give them a better income.
Moral of the story: Do not judge a book by it’s cover. (Read: Do not judge men by what they appear to be on a piece of paper. Get to know them instead.)
This is what happens when women are way too picky and take too long to decide. All the men who have there shit together will eventually get married and couple up with a women. The only men that are left are the ones who are less successful than them.
At the end of the day we all know successful women want it all the problem is they can’t get it all. They often times wait too long and the men they would of settle for is gone.
@Helen 208
Well maybe admiring a man doesn’t garner his admiration. I would admit that is a poor choice of words. It would have been more accurate to have said admiring a man FOR THE RIGHT things can help forge a connection.
You can admire a man without putting him on a pedestal. Forgot where I read it, but the problem is not the admiration itself but WHAT it is that you admire about the man. You need to admire what a man works hard for…or, more specifically, admire the hard work he puts in to accomplish his goals. “I admire you for working hard at a job you hate so that you can provide for our family” or “I admire the hours and hours you put in on the golf course to become a good golfer” are the good kind of admiration…but “I admire your haircut” or “I admire your house/car/taste” not so much.
I think you mean men RESPECT women “if she responds with calm self-respect and a refusal to be belittled.” – I agree.
Several people have suggested that Fiona should lower her bar and seek less successful and less educated men. There have even been several ladies who have shared their success with such relationships. However, every now and then people have shared articles that have indicated the challenges with those relationships. I would like offer up another example that highlights the difficulty of those types of pairings — and that’s African American Women and African American men.
The imbalance between educated and successful African American women and African American men is way bigger than it is for white men and women. The result is that African American women have been trail blazers in terms of marrying men who are less educated and/or less successful. Unfortunately, the divorce rate of those couples is much, much higher than it is for couples with whose education and income are closer or where the man’s income and education is somewhat higher. To be honest, I don’t know why the divorce rate is so much higher and I certainly don’t think only the men are to blame. I think women have play a big part too. Still, it is the case that successful, educated Black women with less educated, less successful Black women don’t stand the test of time. Will the dynamics be different for white men and women? Maybe. Maybe not. However, the point is that at least for one group of women marrying less educated less successful doesn’t seem to be such a great solution. Unfortunately, the result is that well over the majority of educated and successful black women are single — and I happen to be part of that statistic.
So, what might this mean for Fiona or any woman who widens her pool of acceptable men? I think it means these women need to be aware of the risks that might be involved and they need to be proactive about addressing them in order to improve the odds that they will have marriages that last.
For something that is so important and critical to our happiness and well-being, I think we enter relationships with so few tools and skills to make them work. How much compromise is too much compromise? How do I tell my partner what I need in a way that that isn’t hurtful. How do I really listen to my partner and get them to listen to me? I whole heartedly agree with everyone who says that the starting point for a great relationship is that both partners make each other feel loved and cherished. The challenge is how do you do that over the long haul when you will have needs, desires, and priorities that are at odds.
Kenley #214
You raise an issue I had been thinking about also, although not specifically relating to African-Americans. I’ve also dated men who were less successful or struggling with their careers, and that had its own challenges. Some of these men felt trapped in their jobs, didn’t have many options, and weren’t very happy. Especially if you are bright, that struggle or lack of success can be very frustrating and discouraging. Although they might have admired my accomplishments, I sometimes sensed that it made them feel inadequate, and maybe even envious.
I now think it’s important to find a partner who is happy in his career, first and foremost, and I’d like to find someone with the smarts to be able to achieve the success that he desires, whatever that is. I’m less concerned with degrees or income (although, of course, he needs to know how to support himself!).
@ Barry #148: Not sure about the UK, but where I am in the US, you have to have a college degree to be a registered nurse. If you said the nice, hardworking women on the cleaning crew made you go Wow, I’d be more likely to agree with your point about a woman’s education and intellect not being worth much in the eyes of a man. As it is, looks like you were still seeking out your intellectual peers. (I don’t count “not being originally from your country” as an intellectual impairment, either — but most regulars on here probably already know that about me, lol)
Apologies for double-posting, there’s a lot to catch up on…
@ Barry #207:
“What happens when the successful man you marry becomes ill and cannot work ? Or whose skills are no longer required ?”
This is an interesting question, because it can be changed to apply to anyone, anyone at all. If a woman chooses a man for his intellect, what happens when he gets into an accident and becomes brain damaged? If a man chooses a woman for her looks, what happens when she ages 20 years and gains a hundred pounds? If a man chooses a woman because she’s caring and supportive, what happens when she becomes ill and can no longer support and take care of him? What happens if a nice woman comes down with a serious illness that completely changes her character? I don’t know, you tell me.
All I can see is, people are looking for a partner they can have a connection with. (Yes I know that there are men who look for arm candy, women who look for a walking ATM and so on, but I’m talking normal, decent humans here.) What if your partner changes so much that he or she is no longer the person you originally met, and the connection you two had no longer exists? Don’t know, don’t want to know, hope to never find myself in this position, because this is a tough one and probably beyond the scope of this blog.
@ Bill #212
“This is what happens when women are way too picky and take too long to decide. All the men who have there shit together will eventually get married and couple up with a women. The only men that are left are the ones who are less successful than them.”
That may be so, but what happens when women aren’t picky enough? Then they get married in a rush, get divorced a few years later, look around, and all the men who have their shit together are gone — they went and coupled up with someone else while the woman was married.
@ Bluew #211 — agree 100%. After reading the 200+ comments on this thread, I still think that your partner has to be in your intellectual league for a relationship to work. But I agree with you that educational credentials, or salary, or job title, or any other external indicator of success, cannot tell us whether someone is compatible with you intellectually or not. You cannot find out till you’ve met the man in person and interacted with him yourself. You cannot just go by what he’s listed in his profile or what he tells you about himself over email and phone.
I once dated a guy whose profile said he was a successful software architect with a six figure salary. We talked for about a month, met several times and he kept telling me how good he was at his work, how much he enjoyed his work, etc. I believed him to the point where, after he played me and cut off contact, I was actually worried and upset with myself for having lost a valuable business connection. But IT is a small world. Shortly after losing contact with the architect, I met a new coworker in my own office who’d worked with that guy before coming to my workplace. I asked him about his old job and the architect’s name came up right away. Apparently, the quality of his work was horrible — it actually the reason why my coworker left that place (“they had this guy running the place who called himself a software architect, but was more like a junior programmer.”) I could’ve dated that guy for years thinking of him as a successful professional based on his own words only, when in reality he wasn’t even close to being one. Another reason why you cannot judge a book by its cover and have to get to know a person to find out for yourself — the cover, in addition to being irrelevant to what the person is like as a date and a partner, may be counterfeit as well.
Helen writes: “If he tries irking her or pushing her buttons, he’ll admire her if she responds with calm self-respect and a refusal to be belittled.” I don’t really understand why you have to reply with calm self-respect if someone irks you or pushes your buttons. If in my relationship, my man would irk or push my buttons on a regular basis I would start wondering if he actually loves and respects me.
Men want to be loved as they are but how loveable are they? In this thread I read a lot about how men want women to care for them, to accept them, to trust them, etc… But don’t they often want a woman who will not request that they become a better man and grow as a person? Who does not call them out when they are behaving badly? And I really don’t think that by putting up with bad behaviour a woman gives the right signal to a man.
I see very selfrighteous reactions here from men towards women just because some women have the nerve to have some preferences. What makes it so hard for you to agree to disagree? Why do you want to have the last word? Don’t tell me it is because you are a man. Your core must be more than this selfrighteousness, no?
Also, why does it irritate you so much if a woman would want it all? Why do you take it personal? If a woman or a man wants it all, why not just let them pursue their dream and come sooner or later to the conclusion that this is realistic or not.
Ultimately we all want to love and to be loved, that’s not only true for men but also for women. It is repeated several times here that it is important for men how a woman makes him feel. Yet I don’t get the impression that a woman is granted the right to find a man on the basis of how he makes her feel.
Karmic Equation, you write that a woman would have to say: “I admire you for working hard at a job you hate so that you can provide for our family” or “I admire the hours and hours you put in on the golf course to become a good golfer”. In my ears this honestly sounds like buttering up. Don’t get me wrong, I am totally in favour of expressing positive feedback and very generous with it. Genuine feedback that is. Ultimately I think that both men and women should start to find satisfaction in doing what they do without the need for constant affirmation for another person. Of course we all like some encouragement but we are adults so we should be able to stand on our own. Otherwise you put a heavy burden on your relationships and this might harm them.
@Foxie:
“Men want to be loved as they are but how loveable are they?”
If you don’t love him, don’t go out with him. Duh.
“In this thread I read a lot about how men want women to care for them, to accept them, to trust them, etc… But don’t they often want a woman who will not request that they become a better man and grow as a person?”
Who anointed you the personal growth police? Do YOU want a man telling YOU how YOU need to be a better woman and grow and change? Wait – don’t answer that. Because clearly the answer is no. I’M telling you how to better connect with a man (warmth, patience, acceptance, positivity, affection) and YOU’RE getting angry. See how it feels when someone tells you to change?
“Who does not call them out when they are behaving badly? And I really don’t think that by putting up with bad behaviour a woman gives the right signal to a man.”
Show me one place where I told a woman to put up with ‘bad behavior’. You can’t.
“If a woman or a man wants it all, why not just let them pursue their dream and come sooner or later to the conclusion that this is realistic or not?”
Because my job is to give dating advice to women. They have been pursuing their unrealistic dreams and coming up short. I try to steer them in the right direction. Are you saying that I should not give advice to these women, even though it’s my profession?
“Yet I don’t get the impression that a woman is granted the right to find a man on the basis of how he makes her feel.”
You are absolutely given that right. Problem is that most women don’t use it. My clients and readers often choose men who are tall, dark, handsome, educated, charismatic, and successful. That describes HIM. But how does he make her FEEL? Unimportant. Second-best. Low priority. Stupid. Crazy. Difficult. Yet, she’s STILL holding out for him instead of choosing a man who is devoted to her happiness.
That’s what I mean by choosing a partner based on how he makes you feel. That’s what men do as well – and no matter how bright, rich, or hot you are, a good guy with self-esteem is gonna kick you to the curb if you don’t give him the affirmation that seems to irk you so.
In answer to Barry’s post at 207 if I were with a man I loved who got ill and could not work I’d deal with it when it happened which is all we can do. It is a bit like being asked how you would handle being in a train crash – you don’t know unless it happens. I don’t see this as an argument for choosing someone you don’t love.
@Foxie
Most of my friends are men. About 95% of them. I can tell you that all my male friends really like me and the simple reason is that I’m generous and giving of admiration that COSTS ME NOTHING to give or to acknowledge. I admire their skill or hard work because I truly do. Sometimes, if I think they’ve had a bad day, I go out of my way to affirm them. It’s part of being female and a good person.
As long as the admiration is genuine it’s not buttering up. If you express admiration because you know it will make him glow inside, what is wrong with that? If you’re FALSELY admiring him to forge a FALSE connection, yeah, that is totally not cool. And most men can sense this. They have gal-dar the way we have guy-dar. And quite frankly, I think most men’s gal-dars work much better than women’s guy-dar, because men aren’t blinded by external qualities when it comes to listening to their gal-dars.
Men would rather be acknowledged, respected, and admired, than “loved.” And men show their love with ACTIONS not words. (Forgot where I read these two tidbits – but it’s true) – When I text my man, I’ll acknowledge little things he does to show his love for me…and when I do that he ends up doing those things more often and even try to MORE and GRANDER things for me. It’s an awesome positive feedback loop.
I think most women perceive the idea of “unconditional love” as loving someone or bing loved regardless of their flaws or their actions. I think of unconditional love as giving love to someone without expecting anything in return. And by not expecting, I get so so much back.
Try it. Find something GENUINE to admire, respect, or appreciate in each man you date next and don’t be shy about expressing it. Use the words, “I admire … I respect … I appreciate… These words work wonders on. Men can glow, too, bet you didn’t know that. And they are so awesome when they do because they can’t do enough to try to make you happy when you admire, respect, and appreciate the qualities and actions they feel proudest of themselves.
If you feel this lowers your value, nothing I can do to change your thoughts. All I can say is that men in my life, friends or BFs, all are so good to me. It costs me NOTHING to make them feel good, so why not do it?
“Why is it such a horror if you make more money than your husband?”
It’s not a horror to us women.
It’s a horror to men.
LC and only a few other commenters here seem to want to address this or deal with it.
Helen
“Thankfully, to most of the men I know, a happy and fulfilled woman is immensely attractive.”
Well said, I couldn’t agree more. It’s funny; I always mentally picture how attractive people here are according to the tone of their comment.
Fiona
I just want to thank you for answering all the questions and comments even when some of them were quite hostile to you. You have received a lot of heat and I’m impressed with the way you’ve handled it. I’ve been itching to put quite a few thoughts to you myself but have refrained as I don’t want to be just another man taking shots at a single woman. You seem like a genuinely lovely woman and I wish you the best with your search.
I just hope you don’t sacrifice your dream of having children for the sake of meeting a man with particular attributes who may or may not appear. That’d be an awful pity.
This is a sufficiently interesting article — with some points that still aren’t being discussed here in comments — that I’d like to post a link to the whole thing.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200401/the-new-trophy-wife
Evan, I am not angry. Not at all.
I am surprised about your last sentence: “aa good guy with self-esteem is gonna kick you to the curb if you don’t give him the affirmation that seems to irk you so”. If he is a guy with self-esteem why would he need my affirmation. And why would he kick me to the curb for not giving it since he does not need it to feel good about himself.
If you think that just because someone has high self-esteem that he doesn’t want to hear nice things about himself, you really don’t understand human nature.
I have (notoriously) high self-esteem and it always means the world when I hear from my wife that I’m funny or smart or a good father. Who doesn’t like a compliment?
Oh, and Foxie? I told you to stop posting here after you insulted me under the name Reddy. Changing your name/email address doesn’t make it all better.
“My clients and readers often choose men who are tall, dark, handsome, educated, charismatic, and successful. That describes HIM. But how does he make her FEEL? Unimportant. Second-best. Low priority. Stupid. Crazy. Difficult. Yet, she’s STILL holding out for him instead of choosing a man who is devoted to her happiness.”
Tall, dark, handsome, educated, charismatic, and successful men make women feel excited. Such men initially make their hearts (and other parts) all aflutter. This is the “chemistry” that I have seen in the many thousands of online dating profiles I have read. Such exceptional men make life exciting, they create drama that women seem to thrive on, they validate a woman’s attractiveness.
These men also do put their women low on their priority list because they are well aware that there will always been another woman to effortless charm and impress. Such men have “soft harems” of women. Sure, these guys will lead the relationship in exciting ways (“Keep this weekend open and make sure your passport is ready”) but if the woman commits the slighest infraction, she’s swiftly replaced with little regard for her heart or her expectations.
Here comes the dilemma. A man who is devoted to her happiness is too often weak and supplicating. He’s a doormat and that generates neither chemistry nor respect. He must lead in the context of dating and relationships but he must be perceptive enough to know her subtle and unspoken wants and needs so that her happiness is a high priority. Men tend to be rather binary. A large group ends up being doormats because “If momma ain’t happy, no one’s happy” and that kills attraction and respect. The flipside men are the charming cads happily bedhopping and destroying hearts. Someone needs to give that first bunch of men some lessons that women loathe supplicating doormats.
A couple of points regarding “personal growth”. That’s strictly an individual thing, no intimate partner can force it nor should they. Such pressure slays relationships. Besides, if a man acquiesces to such pressure, that shows he is not strong.
I think the women who understand the actual reality of dating and relationship situation past a certain age are the most emotionally healthy and happy. They have internalized in a positive way that they must bring something to the dating and relationship table, something that men actually want. Evan talks about this all the time. His testimonials speak to it, as well.
Many women resist and the irked tone of many comments shows this. They have been taught that femininity is something bad, something to fight against in their own natures. Such women can certainly “date” (code word for pumped & dumped) but why would a man of quality commit to a woman who resists her femininity?
LOL oh Foxie, Foxie. Shouldn’t a smart woman be able to figure out how to change an IP address? Oh the irony.
Evan, I think I am beginning to understand how tough you have things on here. If everyone wants to be right all the time that means that everybody else has to be wrong all the time. I guess I am realising that it is OK to be wrong.
Karmic, I always enjoy reading your posts. I genuinely don’t think that being a lawyer makes me more special than the next woman. I know that all that should matter is being kind, considerate and caring. I wish I could say that were enough.
Thanks Tom. That is nice of you to say. We’ll see what happens. I hope that you decide to take the plunge and enter into a meaningful relationship one day. You might be surprised.
Thank you, Fiona. That’s a good observation. And I have no problem with anyone expressing her opinion on here. Tons of dissent abounds. It’s when it turns into “Evan, you’re wrong” or “Evan, you’re a jerk” that I get agitated. Because a) I’m not “wrong”. I have way too much experience and wisdom to be “wrong”. If anything, you can reasonably say that you disagree or that my specific advice doesn’t apply to you, personally. Which is fair. And b) I’m not a jerk. I work hard to tell women what they need to hear (how to understand men) not what they want to hear (validation that men are the problem). If you’re coming here for validation and not a solution then you’ve got the wrong blog. And, in general, there are only two solutions to relationship problems: be a better girlfriend or dump the guy who’s disappointing you. I say both, in equal measures, but I only get shit when I tell women where to take responsibility instead of assigning blame.
The common thread between women who fight with me on here are that don’t want to admit that they should take any responsibility for their predicament. It’s men. Stupid men. Lying men. Perverted men. Slacker men. Online dating. Big cities. Small towns. You name it; it’s everyone BUT you. Problem is that you can’t change ANY of that. You can move to a new city. Try a new dating site. Take a break. Give up. But at the end of the day, you’re the common denominator in your own life. Pointing fingers never gets anybody anywhere. It’s clear as day for me. And I’ll keep on fighting so that more and more women get the message – choose men who treat you well first and everything else is just details. If you refuse to choose men who treat you well, I’ve got nothing for you.
@EMK
LOL LOL LOL! I did wonder if you were tracking IPs and if someone did just what Foxie/Reddy did. I have my answer. *chuckle*
@Goldie
I think I know that architect 😛 😛 He was endlessly annoying and I had the misfortune of working with him on multiple projects. Thankfully I have changed jobs and haven’t thought about him until now. Funny how the same personalities recur in completely different geographical locations.
@Barry
What Fiona and Goldie said. I would 100% support my husband if he couldn’t work for some reason or if by mutual decision he decided to pursue higher education, etc. Anything else would be unthinkable. But what on earth does that have to do with my desire for a “successful” mate?
@Foxie ” I don’t really understand why you have to reply with calm self-respect if someone irks you or pushes your buttons. If in my relationship, my man would irk or push my buttons on a regular basis I would start wondering if he actually loves and respects me. ”
If a guy pushes your buttons it’s more effective to act calmly. If you react like a psycho to every little thing, it’s a sign of being emotionally unstable and he’ll think he has to walk on egg shells all the time. Sometimes guys push our buttons unintentionally. they do things that they don’t know will bug us. Would you like it if a guy overreacted to every misstep you made? What if you weren’t trying to offend him? If he does something disrespectful on a regular basis, then of course you shouldn’t be with him. But if he realizes it bothers you and stops, it shows he cares. He isn’t perfect but messed up and will take your feelings into account.
@Karmic Equation #221: spot on!!
Until I turned 30 or so, I was just a regular girlfriend. I had good “credentials” (thin, blonde, highly educated, etc etc) and decent character qualities (honesty, responsability, etc). It was just enough to have so-so relationships. Sadly I was self-absorbed and more critical than appreciative.
Once I learned what Karmic Equation wrote at 221, I started to become a much more pleasant girlfriend. You know, someone you really want to be around, someone you connect emotionally effortlessly. As she said, when it’s true, why not telling him? This willingness to express appreciation truly is necessary for happy relationships. Men and women need that kind of respect, validation, and appreciation. If you do not appreciate him, leave him. If you do, tell him on a regular basis.
The key in giving a real compliment is to be specific like the examples that Karmic Equations gave. Find something true that you appreciate and express it specifically: “I really appreciate that you did the dishes especially since it’s my least favorite chore” or “I really admire your ability to endure a stressful job so that you can provide for our/your children”, etc. Say it, write it, whatever! Do it often, for small stuff and for big stuff.
And you know what? This quality is as essential to other meaningful relationships as it is to your partner. I now also regularly express my appreciation to my friends: admiration of their special qualities, gratitude for the time invested together, appreciation for listening to my venting, etc.
It’s simply telling the truth! It’s not praise if it’s true. How come you would not have any problem saying what you find wrong or bad, but would hesitate validating what’s good about a person?
And since we’re talking about appreciation: Evan, I really find your tolerance amazing, and I appreciate your patience in educating us, straight to the point, logically, repeating as often as needed, and yet with awesome humor thrown in there!
Way back @ JustMe #62
It seems like you list a lot of things that aren’t true to get past people’s filters. So I ask Is it ok if a woman posts a picture of someone other than herself, someone better looking as her profile picture with no actual photo of her real self on the site? Etc…………..Is it the same thing or dishonest?
It’s not “ok” and it’s NOT the same thing because online dating is still 98% what you actually look like right now or when you show up at a meet & greet and no matter what statistical bullshit I “embellish”. I show up looking just like or better than my posted pics on Match and that immediately puts a woman at ease along with my personality. I’m also fairly well spoken and intelligent for a man without a “degree”. In other words (and especially for men) if you don’t look like your pics nothing else will matter that you put in your profile truth or otherwise because it will be over and done after 1 drink. For men if we’re not physically attracted to you we could really care less if you’re a surgeon or a cashier, if you make 200K or 25K, have 3 degree’s or a GED. We’re men!!
It seems very strange to me that the women who have degrees seem unable to do simple math. National Statistics on demographics clearly point out that there is simply not near enough tall, successful men with degrees to go around. Just going by height alone, Men over 6′ comprise less than 15% of the population. Removing those out of the checklist range ( too old, too young, married already) you are getting down to about 5% of the general population. When you add things such as degrees and incomes over $200,000, we are getting into the “Sighting of Unicorns range”. Of men in this tiny category, they tend to be High Alpha types who do not make good marriage material because they can have their choice of attractive women, regardless of education.
@Fiona 220
Karmic, I always enjoy reading your posts. I genuinely don’t think that being a lawyer makes me more special than the next woman. I know that all that should matter is being kind, considerate and caring. I wish I could say that were enough.
I don’t exactly think that being a lawyer makes you a more special woman 🙂 but rather that the profession sets more stringent/special (unspoken) requirements on women and by extension to her choice of partners. In other words, IMO, the PARTNER/HUSBAND of a woman lawyer is judged by a *higher* set of standards than the WIFE of male lawyer. E.g., “Unsuccessful” female arm-candy for the guy is ok, but unsuccessful male arm-candy for the lady, not so much. Moreover, any NEGATIVE judgments on the HUSBAND will reflect negatively on the female lawyer. And negative judgments of the wife don’t usually reflect on the husband. Just my opinion. YMMV.
Hence, I don’t fault a female lawyer for having more status-conscious requirements for a mate than successful women in other professions.
@ Highlander #236, you’re ending up with the “Sighting of Unicorns range” because you’re adding criteria that are not relevant to Fiona’s letter, such as minimum 6′ height and minimum 200k/year salary requirements. To say that it’s impossible to find an educated man because men over 6”² comprise less than 15% of the population, is slightly illogical, no?
No Goldie the education requirement was a smokescreen
It was only ever about money – do please read what is actually said.
It is very relevant because it is a common perception by a great many women with degrees that enough of such men are out there that keeps them looking for these unicorns and not considering much of anyone else. All one has to do is look at online dating statistics provided by companies such as OKCupid and others to see this is true. It’s not until many single women hit their 30’s that they start to even question their choices and even then it’s becomes a matter of “Where have all the good men gone” rather than doing the grade six math required to figure it out.
Gimme a break Barry. Fiona is a lawyer. Why would she need a man to support her? The letter doesn’t even mention the word money, income, or salary once.
I’m not sure if this is the thread with the “lawyers shouldn’t be expected to marry mechanics” comments, (I looked it up on my cellphone, but couldn’t respond). I wanted to say that it may depend on where you live. I live in the midwest and a successful female attorney in my area is happily married to a policeman. I know a lawyer who would gladly date me, but is so socially inept and awkward to talk with that I find even a coffee date with him to be unbearable. I think women should stop looking at education level and his career. I know I have. I’ve met several well-educated men with great jobs who can barely spell.
To all the women on this thread who are looking for a highly educated man, there is a professor who lives near me, he has multiple degrees, single, owns a beautiful home, no ex, no kids, and the school he works for is one of the top private colleges in the country. He makes a lot of money there. So, why is he single, you ask? Probably because he’s very socially inept, kind of weird (as in creepy). But, hey, if education is so important to you…
Goldie
Sorry Goldie, but if you read the threads you would know.
This thread is an offshoot from another thread this month.
She has stated that she is looking for a man to keep her in the luxury she has become accustomed to if she were to give up work to have children.
She is not willing to subsidize a man.
Thank you Goldie. I don’t need to be using men for money. I would rather be with someone who is not struggling financially but that is not the same thing.
I read the comment you’re referring to Barry. Fiona says she is worried that, if she marries a man with a significantly lower income, that in event of divorce he may make her pay him alimony. This is a POV one may or may not agree with (personally, I think a decent man with integrity won’t do that to his ex-wife, no matter what his income), but it’s a far cry from “it’s all about money”.
Not to take sides, Goldie, but isn’t alimony pretty standard practices for women who divorce their husbands? Do you believe it should be abolished entirely? Or do you just believe that it should be only for women who marry successful men?
And Fiona, I agree that your desire is normal, but isn’t it a little hypocritical to suggest that it’s fair for a man to take care of you while you take time off, but be unwilling to take care of a man if you have the financial capacity to do so? I’ve written about this extensively, but there’s a strong disconnect that modern women haven’t quite squared. If a man makes $300K/year and the woman makes $50K, it’s expected that she won’t lift a finger to pay. If a woman makes $300K/year and the man makes $50K, women are afraid that he’s going to be a leech, a taker and a user. I don’t see my stay at home wife as any of the above, so I would highly encourage you to stop looking at men who make less as drains on your finances. Once you can do this, you will have achieved equality. Until then, you can’t take it too personally if others think that you sound entitled. I really don’t understand why men are expected to take care of their wives, but wives who make more money see something wrong with taking care of their husbands.
Barry – How old are you? Why are you not married? Maybe that would be a more productive use of your time than deliberately misinterpreting everything I say and then attacking me for something I never said. I have met your type before – never dated one because I wouldn’t want to.
To be clear to others I am not expecting anyone to keep me in “luxury” – I said if I had children it would be nice to be able to stay at home in the first few years to look after them rather than to support a man to stay home and look after them That’s it! Pretty normal woman when it comes down to it.
Evan, I hadn’t thought about alimony myself but now that you mention it, it is a good point. Whole new thing to worry about? Maybe I really should stick to me on my earning level.
Evan, who gets pregnant? Who goes through childbirth? Who breastfeeds? When the man starts doing that, I will happily be back in the office the next day to support him so that he can stay home and be a good mother. Until that day, I think I’d rather be the mother and that means hopefully someone will be the father. What you are suggesting is that I tolerate a male/female role inversion – that is not at all the same thing as accepting a relationship with a man who earns a bit less but who can still support a family for a short period of time for the sake of his children. A role inversion is a deal breaker for me.
Perfect, Fiona. I’m glad I helped you clarify that you can go out with a man who makes less than you as long as he can support a wife and a child.
It only takes about $50K to do so, millions of men make that, so you should have tons of dating options. Congratulations.
Uhh, Fiona, I could swear I’d seen a comment from you listing that concern; guess not. Then I have no idea why Barry thinks you’re all about the money in your requirements. I just did a search on all your comments in this thread and didn’t see anything of the sort. Puzzed.
Evan: um, not in my neck of woods it isn’t. I have only heard of one woman who *tried* to get alimony — not sure if she succeeded. Everyone else just gets very modest child support. Some women I know don’t even get that, or they get in on paper and the man manages to get out of paying one way or another. I think alimony is a great way to compensate for a loss in earnings that a woman has taken due to being married and raising a family, i.e. if the couple was married for a good number of years, and if the wife, at a mutual agreement, left her job and stayed at home with the children for a number of years, or switched to part-time work for a number of years, which affected her earning ability, then I think it’s only fair for her to be compensated, because she will never have the career and income she could’ve if she hadn’t sacrificed it for the family. In general though, I think alimony is a relic of the 50s, when dad was a sole provider, mom stayed home with the kids, and mom would be broke should dad walk out on her. I can only speak for my socioeconomic circle though. I have no idea how the 1% works things out in that regard. Whatever they do, it must be working for them, because hey they’re the 1% and I am not.
@ Fiona, I still think this needs to be approached on a case-by-case basis. I mean, show of hands, ladies, who here wouldn’t want to marry Nathan? amirite? 🙂 Instead of concentrating on a guy’s income before you’ve even met the guy, why don’t you give any man who’s a decent human being a chance, and see what happens? (believe me, “decent human being” would narrow your selection enough — there aren’t that many of those!)
I always find the income discussions difficult because the cost of living is very different over here.
I think we also should take into account that the people who stay home and look after children are making a valuable contribution to their children rather than sitting at home as “entitled” women taking from the earner. I was lucky enough to be brought up by a mother that gave up work to look after me and my siblings (which was the norm in the 70s). My Dad was lucky enough to find a wife that to date still does all the housework, the laundry, the shopping, the cooking and the ironing. I don’t think he sees her as an entitled woman that has been a drain on his resources all these years either. They just have different roles – her role has not been any easier than his.
What Evan says !
Evan
yes my brother makes about that much and has supported his wife and children gladly for ten years. he’s an engineer. He does have degree. He works for a top company you’ve heard of. He just got promoted.
he also has the time and energy, as he’s not long hours, to spend time with his family, including whole days regularly.
that’s a big part of being a father and husband. Many will tell you that bringing home the bacon is not enough.
He can’t afford a big holiday every year or private school.
you can,t have it all on one salary for any length of time unless he is rich. Yes there are rich men. they tend to be popular.
Even I’d date one. I like nice houses, gardens, designer stuff, holidays and financial security as much as the next person.
It,s wonderful to have all of that and a good husband and a good father who is loyal and will love you when youre no longer young and pretty. No woman would turn that down. Why don’t we all have it?
if I had two degrees and were more intelligent would i know the answer to this conundrum?
Goldie I did make a comment about financial disputes being the main cause of divorce although I hadn’t thought much about the financial consequences so much as the emotional ones. Barry wants to believe that I am all about the money so he can think what he likes. I know that I am not all about money. That doesn’t mean that I want to be a man’s financial support though. I doubt that most decent men would want that any more than I do.
I never said you were all about the money, Fiona. I think you’re expressing a very valid and common concern. I do believe, however, that there is a double standard that says that it’s okay for a man to support his wife but not for a wife to support her husband. We have many threads that provide evidence of this.
Love depends on compromise. So I can’t tell you what to compromise on; I will say that you’ll have to compromise on SOMETHING.
Evan, I agree and I am starting to compromise on many things.
I know that you never said that my preference was all about money. That was just Barry who genuinely seems at a total loss as to why smart women connect better with smart men.
My guess is that Barry and Zaq are the same person, based on writing style.
Fiona, don’t let yourself get drawn into a conversation in which you feel you must defend yourself along the lines of “I’m not all about money.” From the start, you never said you were, and I for one believe you.
Now I’m going to backtrack from something Goldie and I debated on a previous post (Goldie, you win). I do think having similar educational levels is important, so that the couple has something to talk about and so that there can be a true meeting of the minds. Educational level is not always measured by degrees, though, and certainly the person’s character is far more important. That’s why I feel some sympathy for the laundromat owner in the original story, whom Fiona passed up. Giving other people a chance to prove their true colors – whether beautiful or ugly colors – is always a good thing.
I absolutely love this thread; it’s brought a wide variety of fascinating sub-topics to the fore. Evan: thank you for giving us a venue to discuss matters that are too-rarely frankly explored in “regular” life. And Fiona: a sincere thank you for sending a letter that has sparked such a vibrant discussion while making you a lightning rod. I might be writing Evan a letter of my own, soon, and don’t look forward to the stream of criticism that will no doubt follow, should he decide to publish it!
Regarding Alimony… Goldie: I am pleasantly surprised you know few cases of alimony. I am surrounded by them: 1%ers as well as those with far, far less money. In fact, I know one professor who comes from a very wealthy family but doesn’t have vast riches, himself; his soon-to-be ex-wife is suing not only him but also his parents for alimony, since his parents occasionally help him out financially (eg. bought him a house in central London when he & his family moved there for his job). The sense of entitlement and viciousness never fails to astound.
Evan, I actually do believe that alimony should be overhauled (not obliterated, mind you, but thoroughly changed). I don’t think any woman, or man, should be given half of what a spouse earned. The word “alimony” links to “food, nourishment” and the idea was that neither spouse should starve after a divorce: not that one person be allowed to take half of another’s money. I do believe that children are better off raised by a parent than handed over to daycare/a nanny at birth, but how much would one pay to a ’round the clock, educated nanny/housekeeper? At most, $120K/year. So, if a spouse stayed home during to raise children, I believe he/she should either receive the equivalent of half of what he/she earned in his/her most recent job, or $60K/year (half of the $120k), as well as any child support that might be required.
And Evan, I do think that if a man earns $300K and his, $50K that she should put most of her money into their communal expenses. She’s living at a much higher standard of living than that which she could ever afford, herself; why shouldn’t she be happy to put most of her money towards this? I know plenty of wealthy men (1% kind of wealth) and those who are not control freaks are touched and impressed by people with less money who insist on paying their own way… or, as much of their own way as they can (and the majority of 1%ers I know are control freaks, but who wants them, anyway?!).
My oh my. I can not believe some of the posts on here, specifically from Reddy, DLR, and the OP- Fiona. I’ll tell you something, you might have a lot of degrees, but when it comes to dating and relationships….you’re all dumb as a rock!!! Clueless. And yes your education definitely makes you not pretty, as was stated by somebody prior. What is not pretty is not the fact that you have a high level of education, but how that high level of education has suddenly turned you into stuck up, cold and arrogant. How come people like Karmic Equation and Soul can easily see the whole picture and what the real important things are? I am not sure what their levels of education are, but they are clearly far more intelligent than any of you. In fact you 3 are so arrogant that you disagree with Evan every single time he has tried to advise you. If you’re so smart and successful about relationships and pretty much everything (according to you) then why are you here?
Reddy, we saw your true colors come out when you insulted Evan and even brought up totally different discussions that had nothing to do with the topic. You also made incredibly major and really insulting assumptions about Evan. Wow, and this is intelligence? Do you make wild assumptions like this at your job? If so, I wouldn’t expect you to last long. And lastly for Fiona, what in the world makes you think the guy who was the Laundry operator has any interest in dating someone like you? You may not be in his league.
To Soul and Karmic, it’s useless to continue to try to explain and rationalize things to people like this. They are not capable of understanding.
Locutus, thanks for your comments. That sort of attitude really inspires me to date men with lower education. Where can I find soemone like you? I can hardly wait to be berated like that all night. You might want take a look at your own insulting attitude before launching into others.
Locutus they will get it eventually….the Wall cometh ;~) Once they do the math I mentioned earlier, they’ll see the point… whether thye can force themselves to accept it is another thing entirely.
Good luck to you too Highlander. Bitterness is not an attractive quality so guys like you and Locutus had maybe better figure that out. I don’t know too many women looking for men that will accuse them of being ‘dumb as a rock’ so I think you may struggle a bit.
Locutus
Excellent observation.
@Fiona
That was just Barry who genuinely seems at a total loss as to why smart women connect better with smart men.
Education DOES NOT equal “smart”. And being smart in one area doesn’t necessarily make you smart in others. You are obviously “booksmart” but relationship-smart, not so much, else you wouldn’t be late 30’s without an LTR partner.
The definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. I think you’re not getting this.
If you continue to think GONE TO UNIVERSITY = SMART, you are bypassing a HUGE pool of dating prospects.
I couldn’t post the link to the article I wanted to from Chateau Heartiste (http://heartiste.wordpress.com/) site — but I think you should go there and search for the HOT GIRL CRAZY article. No disrespect, but I think that might be part of your “issue” (perhaps more applicable to you in your youth than now, but there seems to be some lingering effects). I loved the phrasing “hot girl’s problems are ugly girl’s wishlists.” A well-turned phrase, imo. Unkind but not untrue.
Sorry for double post…I should have put a disclaimer on my link. The Chateau Heartiste site is not for those easily offended. And if you already have a poor opinion of men, you really SHOULD NOT read it! This is a blog for “players.”
I don’t agree with the tone (with is pretty misogynistic) but the concepts in some articles, if you can ignore your feelings of offense, are eye-opening and, unfortunately, sometimes hit a nerve.
I agree that the author is misogynistic – and is not indicative of the kind of man that my readers want. If he truly values hundreds of women over one lasting love, it doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy; it does mean he’s a bad potential partner. Yet just because someone is not a good potential partner doesn’t mean he doesn’t have something valuable to contribute.
If you can get past his impossibly arrogant writing style – filled with 5 dollar words that are meant to impress – there’s a few kernels of truth in here:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/hot-girl-crazy/
But as Karmic wrote, it’s not for the easily offended. Nor does it apply to the OP, Fiona, who I’m guessing isn’t “hot and crazy” but rather smart/educated and having trouble finding a reasonable compromise point for her partner.
For all the people on here who have felt the need to personally insult me, I don’t stoop to lows of issuing personal insults because I have no idea how painful it would be for the person on the other end to receive them. Resorting to personal attacks for me just means that you lose your own dignity. It doesn’t add anything productive to a discussion.
To be clear the laundry guy I met at the speed dating event was unattractive and inarticulate. I actually felt sorry for him and spend the whole time trying to put him at ease. I did not tick him afterwards because I did not want to date him. I did not insult him to his face or be rude to him in anyway because that isabout the kind of person I am or that I aspire to be. I spoke to the doctor afterwards when people had already left when I said that I doubted I would go to another such event.
At the end of the day I know I behaved with common decency which is a lot more than you have shown me. I only hope it makes you feel good about yourselves. It makes me quite sad to think how people throw insults around so easily with no thought about how it might make the other person feel.
(Agreed, Fiona. People should offer constructive, not destructive criticism of your position. Constructive is designed to help. Destructive is designed to hurt. Sorry to put you through what I go through every day. It gets tiring, doesn’t it? – EMK)
It does rather. Don’t worry – in my line of work I’ve been called worse things…it goes with the territory.
Why is it when somebody point’s out the obvious they are attacked as being bitter? All I’ve said was that demographics point out that the type men being sought after by professional women are in very short supply. If these women are so far superior in their education, I find it puzzling they could not have figured this out. One can Google this information up in about five minutes, if you don’t believe me I suggest you do the research. If you reside in the USA, the US Census Bureau is a good place to start.
@ Highlander, I am still confused re: your “simple math” post above. you started with limiting the pool of available men to 15%, because that’s how many of them are six feet or taller. You then calculate how many of these tall men are single, available, looking to date women, college educated, make over 200K and sure enough come up with a tiny number. May I gently point out that you were the first person on this thread to mention the height requirement. No one here said that a man must be over six feet tall or else. Mine isn’t, and I’m doing just fine. By throwing in an irrelevant criteria right away, you immediately limit the numbers. Going by level of education alone, according to the 2009 census results, 27% of men between ages 25 and 34 have a bachelor’s degree or higher. That’s not a unicorn sighting range as you said, that’s more than one in every four. Only thing Fiona was asking about in her letter is whether she has to date men with a lower education level. Height, wealth, girth, etc are all good criteria (I guess) but not relevant to her letter. Education-wise, the numbers are good. It did take me five minutes to google it, just like you said.
@Goldie – Instead of focusing on height, you should concede the validity of Highlander’s claim:
27% of men have a bachelor’s degree. But how many have a masters or a doctorate? 10.9% As we’ve heard here, many women who have advanced degrees want a man who has one, too.
Similarly, if you make $100k and want a man who makes the same thing or more, that leaves you with 5% of the population or so.
Of course, that 5% has to overlap with the first 10.9%.
We haven’t even talked about body type, personality, sense of humor, religion, politics, common interests, geography, age, desire for marriage and children and all the other variables that prevent people from connecting. So when Highlander points out that insisting on a certain level of education lowers the number of options you have, he’s absolutely right. Anything you make into a dealbreaker becomes a dealbreaker. Anything you won’t compromise on, you won’t compromise on. Those who do compromise on any of the above have a greater number of options.
Highlander, Barry, and the rest – I think you’re all coming at this in an entirely too black or white, all or nothing mindset. The women you speak of are small subset of all women. In all my years of dating well educated women with decent to higher paying jobs, I can recall only a handful who were so fixated on money and perfect 10 looks that they rejected me and every other guy they met. And frankly, none of those women would fall into the financially successful category. From what I have seen, both in reading online and in my own dating life, the issues for women are more about having a few too many fixed expectations about men in general. What those things are vary from woman to woman. But it’s the sense of not knowing what things are most important to having a great, healthy relationship, and what things are just extra. Overall, men aren’t that different. We may not have the long lists of “requirements,” but many of us sure seem to struggle to let go of the supermodel who showers our ego with love fantasies of our teen and early 20 years.
Karmic – there are countless reasons why people are single or not in LTR’s in their late 30s. Fiona’s responses have demonstrated flexibility and a willingness to listen, a rare quality online. I don’t agree with every last point she makes, but I think you are lumping her in with a crowd she doesn’t belong in. This issue of smarts, for example. I didn’t hear her outright reject men without college degrees.
I think it’s fine to be open to dating people regardless of university education level, but also know that the majority of good candidates will come from those who have degrees. I have an MA. I have dated a few women without college degrees in recent years. It can work. And as Sara wrote somewhere above, some well educated folks have such poor social skills that they struggle to be attractive to anyone. (Go hang out in academia awhile if you need examples of this.) So, I’m open, but I also think it’s just fine to have some filters you usually use. There’s only so much time in a life. Going on dates with anyone and everyone may be fun when you’re young, but eventually it gets tiring.
Wow…every time I come back here the insults keep getting better. The sad thing is some of you actually have valid points to make but they get lost in the accusatory language and terrible tone of the post. There’s a reason they say “you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar” – it’s true!! I find myself more willing to listen and accept things that are outside my current set of beliefs if they are presented in a rational, non-attacking manner. I also appreciate tempered sarcasm but again, wow. To be clear, I’m talking about posts from both men and women – I started skimming Reddy’s after the 2nd one because the content was ridiculous and the tone extremely abrasive.
Fiona, a big hug from me. It’s never pleasant to be the target of a witch hunt.
@Fiona 258
Evan, I agree and I am starting to compromise on many things.
Just started to re-read some posts and this one sentence stood out.
Maybe I’m reading into it, Fiona, but the way this sentence sounds, you are not happy having to compromise. Almost like you’re being forced into it. While that may be the case, I really would suggest changing the word “compromise” in your head to a positive word like “shifting your perspective” or something like that. If you feel you’re “compromising too much” you’re going to like whoever you end up with is someone you “had to settle” for. And that subconscious negative thought/feeling is going affect your relationship.
Better to re-start your search by “optimizing the criteria” or whatever positive phrases work for you so that when you date those folks meeting the new criteria, you don’t have subconscious negative feelings brought on by the term “compromise” which, when it comes to men, obviously gives you a negative feeling.
I wish you the best.
Fiona #262,
Insulting huh? Hold a mirror up to yourself. You are nothing, but arrogant and insulting of people in the supposed ‘lower realm’ than you. I am a lower education level than you? Really? I have a masters degree in Engineering from a reputable school. You assuming again?? I’ve dealt with people who have high school degrees to people with doctorates in particle physics from MIT. I’ve dealt with floor workers to CEO’s to company owners that are worth 9 figures. I don’t really care what level of education or intelligence you claim…it’s meaningless in a relationship compared to a persons character, how they treat others, and what type of person they are.
Evan, good point. There are enough real deal-breakers out there (serial player, drug addict, violent abuser with anger issues) to add new variables, like specific degree requirement or income cutoff, to the equation.
With that in mind, I do not like the term compromising. Or settling. How about instead, we call this process setting our priorities straight? Because, to me, that is what it really is. I don’t settle for a man who makes 95K where before my cutoff was 100, I ignore that part entirely (as long as he can support himself and a family) and look at his human qualities instead. These human qualities might include being a responsible worker and enjoying what they do for a living to some degree. Still work-related, but sounds different than “I need a man to make six figures or else”. This will also help filter out the douchebags that would’ve otherwise made the cut just because their salary happens to be in the six figures. Kind of along the lines of what Karmic Equation #276 is saying.
@ Helen #259 – Oh my! What did I win? 🙂 Glad that we could find the middle ground!
Fiona, I think you’ve done a great job expressing yourself and being open to listening (especially #250). There’s nothing wrong with having preferences in dating…so what if it narrows the field? Simply having a man is not the goal in my mind, it’s finding someone we’re compatible with and recognizing there’s no such thing as having 100% and I have also come to believe there’s no one that’s even ‘perfect for us’. There is just no perfection in this world.
I’ve dated a lot of different kinds of men, and being a professional woman, led me to honing my preference to a “professional” man. He could be the owner of a construction company or a sales person in high tech…it was that kind of life experience, lifestyle and type of conversations I like to have and these are the kinds of men that I found to be most attractive to me. I had plenty of men to choose from who fell into this category, it’s a world of ABUNDANCE not scarcity.
Ultimately, in my experience, dating a lot of people and different kinds of people in a conscious way, leads us to what we really find attractive, makes us feel good and shows us what is really important to us.
If it can help (I know it did help me), 10 years ago, I read a piece of dating advice from a psychologist that really helped me: if you are smart and serious in finding the right man for you, when looking for Mr. right, you are only allowed to have 3 non-negotiables (i.e. 3 dealbreakers on the checklist), and most of them should be on personality/character. That’s it. 3. not 4, not 10. And they must be based on your assessment of a man’s personality (i.e. that takes a little bit of time).
So i know my non-negotiables were (and still are):
– He has integrity:he does what he says and he says what he does
– He is Smart: my definition of smart is how acute and tolerant he is with people’s differences/cultures/personalities etc.
– He really loves ME and I love HIM (i.e. who we really are): I want him to care for me as a human being, I want him to still love me if i lost everything material
Those are my personal non-negotiables. What are yours? they will be different from one person to the other. But they need to be related to moral qualities. For instance, instead of requiring financial success, you might say that you want a man you can trust knows how to make things happen when he sets his mind to achieving something, who is a go-getter and does not quit until he has reached his objective (hhhmmmm, now that’s attractive!!!), and so on…. now this man could be a laundry man of any our profession, but you’d still feel secure and protected around him…
Goldie, you girls certainly like avoiding certain terms like “Settling” at all costs, Settling is something few women will admit to until after the divorce ;~) “Setting our priorities straight”, well I guess we’ll have to settle for that …
Sorry i meant “now this man could be a laundry man or any other profession”
I agree with Karmic Equation @276 and Goldie @278 about adjusting the choice of words. It indeed comes down to the question of your relationship goals and priorities.
(Generic you):
What is your #1 priority? Showing off a “successful” partner? Being taken care of by a good provider? Life-long marriage and children? All of these might sound good to you, but it’s useful to define the TOP priority and focus on that one first.
Then, before even “compromising”, it would be beneficial to understand the correlation between must-have qualities and external factors that seem to reflect them but may actually not. If you’re really after an intellectual connection, then go on dates with someone who shares the same top priority goals and who is reasonnably attractive and ask questions that will reveal your ability to connect intellectually as a couple. Do not make assumptions based on education level and therefore miss out on valuable prospective partners. As multiple commenters have explained, there is no correlation between degree and actual intelligence or even the ability to connect intellectually with YOU. Sure, having attended college shows some intellectual curiosity, can give hope for some better verbal/writing skills, and demonstrate some ambition. But all of these qualities can be developed in other ways, and having obtained an advanced degree is not the only sign of ambition. It’s important to be honest with yourself. Is it REALLY intellectual connection that you’re after? If yes, then it’s not even compromising to lower your educational requirements since doing that does not mean compromising on intellectual connection. It’s understanding how things are related and how they are not. It’s being intelligent! Now, if what you are after as top priority is maintaining/increasing status, fine. But be honest about it. It’s unhelpful to lie to yourself and pretend that you want something deeper such as an intellectual connection when what you truly want is the flashy external characteristics.
(End of generic you.)
Now, Fiona, after reading your last comments as well as your comments from previous threads where you wrote about how much you wish to be a mom, I’m still unsure of what you truly want. At times I have to admit that you came across to me as someone looking for a high-status partner while trying to justify your preferences as a need for “compatibility”, whereas at other times I thought you simply did not understand how the external qualities you’re after do not overlap at all with what you actually need. Once you figure out what you TRULY need by order of priorities, you will know better what kind of men to give a chance to and see what nice-to-have would come as part of the deal.
And finally, dating a man with a lower educational level is indeed pretty much necessary for a women with an advance degree, given how few men have such degrees. But it does not mean giving up with intelligence and intellectual connection. It also does not mean going on dates with manual laborers when you are a lawyer. Anyway such men do not usually seek highly educated women as partner, so it should not be too much of a concern.
Good luck, Fiona!
Locutus I can only assume that your mean spirited attacks on me make you feel big. I hope one day you overcome it because I can assure you the only people it will impress are those that are equally mean spirited. I am not nasty and mean spirited towards those that are less smart or less educated. I simply choose to date men that are on a similar intellectual level which is hardly the same thing.
Karmic, with respect, I really don’t owe you an explanation of what compromises I am prepared to make. I will no doubt by ‘happy’ to compromise when I find a compromise that I am happy with. It is for me and me alone to decide what that compromise will be and if I am not ‘happy’ I shan’t. I think the the term ‘compromise’ is fine. After all every relationship involves putting what you as an individual really want for the overall good of the relationship. I do ‘get it’ – getting your point and agreeing with you are not however the same thing. I did not appreciate the ‘hot and crazy’ insinuation nor do I appreciate your suggesting that I know nothing about relationships just because I am still single. You have made compromises that I would never entertain and that many would regard as unwise e.g. Non-exclusive relationships. It is not for me judge you for that. All that matters is that you are happy with the compromise you made. The same applies to me.
@Nic, #205. Thank you for your kind response. I was wrong about you being blonde, but you sound gorgeous, nonetheless. I don’t know that I necessarily want to date a neurosurgeon. But, I am in the medical field as well (oncology physician assistant). I find that I require lots of alone and down time, so would do very well with someone who works alot. As long as I could trust hm. Unlike General Petraeus. <grin>. Refreshing that you and your beau are similar ages.
Best of luck to you and your guy!
@Fiona: You do not need to justify your criteria and choices to anyone. Everyone’s experiences and interpretations are their own.
I was married when I was very young, never had kids. I do not regret the marriage, wrong as it was, because it showed me that there are far worse things in life than being single.
At my age (51) I mostly attract men 10+ years older. I wouldn’t mind if they were in good shape. But the odds are that I would be taking care of them. I won’t do that unless I have a history with them, and was recipient of some of the good times. Men mostly wouldn’t date women 10 years older than them. Double standard. John and Yoko were an outlier. John left Cynthia for a woman 7 years older than him.
Anyway, you do not come across as snooty or unrealistic to me.
I hope you do find what you want. But if you don’t, you are better off alone than settling. You can have kids via sperm donor or a willing friend. That’s probably what I would do if I was younger and *really* wanted kids.
I agree with Fusee at 283. I’m confused too by what Fiona actually wants as well. Sorry to be treating you like a case study Fiona!
Many comments ago, I did suggest ways to meet successful men but you then said you weren’t looking for a relationship. If you don’t want a relationship then all our ways of telling you how to get into a relationship are going to be perceived as pushy and unhelpful (though some are pushy and unhelpful).
And you dont’ have to take any of your negative experiences personally. I’ve been asked out/approached by pimps, drug dealers, someone on day release from a secure mental health unit, the homeless, teenagers, men over 40 years older than me, young offenders, and lesbians. I dont’ feel that I’m expected to date them. I’m not insulted. I don’t defend my position. It’s kinda amusing, even touching sometimes.
You don’t have to date the laundry guy. I think your only error there was to voice your dissatisfaction. When you’re out and about and looking to connect just alway be positive unless it really is diabolical (eg if there’s rats, cockroaches, or a loud Elvis impersonator). Complain afterwards in the safety of your own home.
I run networking events for lawyers and IP professionals. At a recent event of mine a woman your age turned up. Within minutes she was surrounded by men. It’s a male dominated field. It can happen if you don’t get sidetracked by the negative. I don’t think you should date the laundry guy either. I also don’t think it’s any of your concern if he’s unattractive or inarticulate and you don’t even have to put him at his ease. You dont’ owe him any favours.
I’m also puzzled as to why it’s so difficult to meet your intellectual equals. I’ve never found that to be a problem and I was the most academically successful pupil in my year at school. (I did go off the rails though so I probably wouldn’t meet your criteria if I was a man! )
I wonder if this is a red herring and is there’s a deeper issue that is beyond a dating advice website (if Evan doesn’t mind me saying so).
You are still young enough that “sperm donor” and “single for the rest of your life” are not your only options. Those are good options if they work for you. If not, you can choose different. It’s your life.
Is my boyfriend smart? Yes he is. He doesn’t have a degree because his parents pushed him into something he didn’t want to do. He rebelled and travelled around the world, working in various countries. If I said “must have a degree” I wouldn’t be with him now and I would have missed out.
I got talking to the errand boy at an exhibition in Geneva. Turned out his father was a top Swiss surgeon and he himself was on holiday from university and just earning some pocket money.
Just be careful of having a fixed idea of what the man should have achieved, look like, earn, do, and what lifestlye you will have. That person and that life is only a fantasy. The funny thing is that reality is better.