Most Women Don’t Dream of Dating Nice Guys


I love infographics, even when they’re based on silly, not-peer-reviewed, not-statistically significant, research, especially if they prove something illuminating.

That’s why I’m sharing this infographic from a site called Dating Metrics. I’m not sure what they’re selling, so don’t worry about it. Just pay attention to the part about women preferring bad boys to nice guys. It’s amusing and a good leaping-off point for a discussion.

In short, this guy looked at lists written by women about the 53 “sexiest TV characters” and realized that:

40% of women’s “fantasy TV boyfriends” are cold blooded murderers!
21% are vampires…
And only 14% are nice guys!

Now, it seems to me that this was a question that had a very predictable answer. Because the question wasn’t about “what kind of man would you like to marry?” In fact, the question was about the “sexiest TV characters” and “fantasy TV boyfriends”. When you frame it like that, whoever says that her fantasy is to marry Jason in accounting, who is kind, stable, consistent, communicative and relationship-oriented?

It seems patently obvious that damaged, rebellious, mysterious and brooding are pretty much the OPPOSITE traits that one would look for in a life partner.

As a result, this infographic is amusing, but much ado about nothing.

To me, the real question is why we glorify the traits associated with the bad boy: damaged, romantic, manly, rebellious, mysterious, smart, brooding.

It seems patently obvious that damaged, rebellious, mysterious and brooding are pretty much the OPPOSITE traits that one would look for in a life partner, yet women still undeniably find them attractive and sexy.

I am not even friendly with anyone who is damaged, rebellious, mysterious or brooding, so I’m not the most objective judge, so let me ask you: what is it about these exciting inscrutable bad boys that continues to have a pull on you? Is being with someone “nice” really all that bad or boring? And do you know of any dark, damaged bad boys who have turned into happy, healthy, stand-up husbands?

Your thoughts, below, are appreciated.

Join our conversation (317 Comments).
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  1. 41

    I think there’s a misunderstanding regarding what the result of such polls really means. Ask a random guy what he thinks about Dexter, “He rocks!” will be the probable response; Now ask about Sawyer, the response will be similar. Men, just like women, won’t respond this kind of question from a moral point of view. The aforementioned villains are fascinating characters, and they happen to inhabit fantasy tv series that abstract what people like them would be in real life.

    I like to think this way: which profession is more interesting, a white collar worker or a foreign legion soldier? The answer is easy, right? Now stop to think how many people would choose to live such a risky lifestyle over a comfortable office position, there is a dissonance between what catches people’s attention and what people choose for themselves. As a guy who was the quintessential bad boy in many relationships, it’s easy for me to see how unsustainable being a jerk is in the long run.

  2. 42

    This post was not directed at me, obviously. I must be the exception here, but I’ve turned down more than my share of bad boys. I would love to find a nice, stable, successful man with whom I could build a loving, solid relationship. I’ve never found bad boys attractive, and will turn down a second date with one if I even catch a whiff.

  3. 43
    vas alexander

    Here is the thing Evan,women are shallow superficial individuals simple as that.Nothing else.You have said it yourself that people want what they want regardless if it is right or wrong.
    We all have done one important mistake,we ar valuing women’s opiniontoo much hence their opinion is overestimated since women’s role is very important today in relationship game.
    To sum up they are making huge as well as ridiculous mistakes themselves they are far from being perfect.  
      To me is very clear but again that’s only my opinion.

  4. 44

    I wanted to refine my comments from earlier on this thread, because I think I may have been unclear with all the cognitive psych terms.
    It seems clear to me that women and men generally mean different things when we use the word “nice”.   Women use the word to mean “kind, but within boundaries of roles.”   Men use the word to mean “putting the needs of others before one’s own, irrespective of roles or boundaries.”
    For example, take a situation where one spouse (gender irrelevant) tells the other that s/he wants to move to a new neighborhood, and the other spouse does not want to do so.   A man would look at the request and consider himself as being “nice” if he acquiesced, irrespective of his own desires and arguments.   A woman would consider acquiescing to be a sign of a lack of backbone.   If the man were to acquiesce to the woman, she would view him as less attractive.   If the woman were to acquiesce to the man, he would view her as MORE attractive.
    Women want men to be kind to them, but within boundaries.   And they expect that men want the same, and would better respect (and be attracted) to women if women occasionally declined their requests and showed boundaries (rather than constantly prioritizing the desires of their partner).   And this does not work for men, because men crave emotional receptivity from their women, and view this form of “niceness” as such receptivity.  
    Men want women to be nice to them without boundaries.   And they expect that women want the same, and would better respect (and be attracted) to men if men never declined their requests or showed boundaries.   And this does not work for women, because women need to RESPECT their partner’s strength of will.
    This is why men believe that women do not like nice guys, and women look at them like they are crazy and say that of course they like nice guys…..but not the type of niceness that men think.

  5. 45

    I liked bad boys when I was in college.   The ones who smoked (cigarettes and pot), who partied, who did things they weren’t supposed to and didn’t do things they were supposed to. . . .   It was all because I was a pretty sheltered kid who wasn’t allowed to do much, and I saw these guys as my wise guides in mischief-making and pretty harmless rebelliousness.   It wasn’t enough anymore to NOT do things because my parents said not to do them.   I needed to cause a bit of trouble and figure out on my own how much of that I could handle, and go through some experiences first hand.   I had some major, major crushes on those guys, and was head over heels for one (a little less bad than the others but way cooler).   It wasn’t until my mid 20s when I got in my first real relationship though, and that wasn’t with a bad boy.   It was with a really decent guy.   He called when he said he was going to call.   He didn’t play any head games.   He was totally clear about how much he liked me and wanted to spend time with me as often as he could.   He was average looking by conventional standards but I had nothing but warm fuzzies for him.   I felt really comfortable around him, and for such a shy guy around other people he was never shy around me.   I stayed with him for over seven years.   Since that ended I’ve had a few flings but what I’ve been looking for in a long-term companion hasn’t changed.   I want the stand-up man.   A “nice” guy?   Sure.   I don’t want to date a guy who’s passive aggressive, immature or rude.   But I’m certainly not looking for someone damaged or someone who’s actually violent.   I want someone who’s a high level communicator, easy to be with, gung ho for whatever random activity I want a partner for that weekend, who’s sexually compatible with me, and can handle my big Italian family.   The loner dangerous guy doesn’t fit into my fantasy.   About the only one the loner dangerous guy fits into is a sexual fantasy, and that’s only because they do the chasing, and they’re hot.   As seen on TV, not as seen in reality.

  6. 46

    I would like to see a similar article from the female perspective

  7. 47
    jenny ravelo

    There are to extremes: the bad boy and the nice guy. One is utterly sexual, the other is the opposite. When looking for someone for a LTR, women are attracted to less masculine faces and less agressive behaviors, which means that someone in the middle would be MUCH more desirable than both.

    Women who are constantly attracted to guys too nice it’s because they have self-esteem issues that makes them feel afraid of more masculine men, while women who are attracted to bad boys are not looking for a relationship or have their issues as well.  

    Movie characters are just character are just that. They are attractive because they are a fantasy, they have the charm and mystery, but we feel safe cause they won’t hurt us. It’s the same as rape fantasies. Some women find rape fantasies appealing, but doesn’t mean that actual rape would be a good experience.

  8. 48

    The best way to understand the whole idea of the bad boy and nice guy is to think of this issue from the point of view of economics. More specifically, the “revealed preference theory, in economics, a theory, introduced by the American economist Paul Samuelson in 1938…The theory entails that if a consumer purchases a specific bundle of goods, then that bundle is “revealed preferred,” given constant income and prices, to any other bundle that the consumer could afford.” In other words, what Samuelson is saying in plain language, is that no matter what the consumer says or doesn’t say, his actual preference is for what she actually buys. Not what she should buy or surveys say she should buy or what psychologists say she SHOULD buy or some other piece of nonsense. What she actually DOES buy. In the case of women, a smart man ignores what she says and looks at what kind of guy women ACTUALLY sleep with and ACTUALLY date.
    Women have almost complete control, collectively of the dating market. If women, collectively decided that they didn’t want to sleep with and have relationships with jerks, a-holes, abusive guys, bad boys, etc., these would disappear practically overnight. If being a gentleman really worked to attract and keep a woman, they would have to adjust and change their behavior to fit this model. But with all of the women that throw themselves at these bad guys, there is ABSOLUTELY no incentive for them to do so. Again, not ALL women prefer this but MOST do. Women collectively bemoan the rise of pick up artists, but all pickup artists are essentially, are guys who got sick to death of being rejected by women and began to simply emulate the bad boy behavior which so many of you find attractive.

  9. 49

    @ Jeremy, you stated:

    “For example, take a situation where one spouse (gender irrelevant) tells the other that s/he wants to move to a new neighborhood, and the other spouse does not want to do so. A man would look at the request and consider himself as being “nice” if he acquiesced, irrespective of his own desires and arguments. A woman would consider acquiescing to be a sign of a lack of backbone. If the man were to acquiesce to the woman, she would view him as less attractive. If the woman were to acquiesce to the man, he would view her as MORE attractive.”

    Most women I know would appreciate this, and I am being honest. In fact, when I discuss moving out of an apartment to a house, and my boyfriend sees no reason to move, as it is close to the bars downtown and to HIS work, and offers the amenities that HE wants, it turns me off. When my boyfriend grunts and moans if I ask him to walk my dog, it turns me off. When he huffs and puffs about helping me move out of my apartment, it turns me off. When he’d rather ride his motorcycle than help me wash our apartment carpet, it turns me off.

    “If I were to say I believe in monogamy, want a family one day, I have a good job, am continuing my education during the evenings and regularly attend church and actually believe in cherishing my woman and not verbally abusing her or playing games, this could be all quite shocking and she would probably run away. “

    In my eyes, who is the only woman who would run away from this? A 21 year-old who is still looking to have fun.

    1. 49.1

      Noemi, the points I described reflect a nice, “safe” guy. A lot of women aren’t turned on by this. I don’t understand why this is, it just is. The traits I described fit one of my good friends to a T. He loved his girlfriend to pieces. He had a good job, went to church, was the “perfect boyfriend.” She ran away to sleep with a bad boy.

      When I was younger, I saw numerous cases of women running after bad boys and avoiding good guys. Why is this? Who knows? As a guy I don’t know why it is. But as Evan pointed out, this is the way things are and guys just need to learn what women want and adopt this behavior. It seems like the sense of unpredictability and danger turn women on. These traits can be faked, just look at the case of the students who had recently graduated college with honors who were dressing like gangsters and playing loud music at a party, probably in an attempt to impress women. The neighbors were so alarmed by these “bad boys” they called the police and that is when their deception was uncovered.But isn’t that crazy. They are honest student, who just graduated a prestigious university and have gotten law degrees, yet, they feel like they have to dress like thugs and act like idiots.

  10. 50

    @ Adam, you said: “I am not envious, but I do admire the guys you described. They not only are able to sleep with whatever women they want to sleep with including your sister, they will also have no trouble when the decide to settle down and have a real relationship with a woman who actually loves them and they actually love.”

    I have to disagree with the above statements. Yes, these men are sleeping with a vast number of women, but you fail to recognize that these women are shallow. When these men decide to settle down, they will find it more difficult to attract the right woman. Why? Those notches in their belt and their fancy house and cars just won’t do it anymore. The techniques used on the shallow women don’t work on the real women. These men don’t have the depth that real women want because they didn’t have to work hard to attract women.

    Case in point: I knew a guy named Frank since middle school. Boy, was he a hottie! We attended different high schools, but I saw him again on my college campus. We made eye contact a few times, but I really wasn’t interested. After college, I ran into him at a bar, and he approached me. We talked, and I gave him my number. He was excited about me, and told his friends about how pretty I was (as they told me afterward).

    I met him and a group of his friends at a restaurant for dinner and drinks. I had a good time, as I enjoyed the company of his friends, but something was off. He didn’t converse with me much of that night. Although I made an effort to be receptive to him, I realized he was expecting me to do all of the work. I later found out that he was banging our waitress at that time, and after she saw me with him, she went home and cried her eyes out. That was the last time we saw each other. I politely declined his subsequent invitations (late night texts to “hang out”….eew).

    Fast forward a few years, and I now realize that this guy was boring and uninteresting. Because he had girls flocking around him, he didn’t have to do any of the work. He didn’t have to practice his conversational skills. He didn’t have to appear interesting to women. All he had to do was look good. All that you have left is a good-looking guy who is good in bed, but with no personality–a dud. I bet he’ll have a hard time finding a good girl when the time comes! A good girl knows there’s more to a guy than his good looks.

    “Women will consider all of their bad boy womanizing a major positive and she will love him just that much more. Women love former players. They all dream of being the one who captures his heart and they also love the idea of other women wanting to sleep with their man and not being able to.”

    This may describe many women, but not all. As we grow older, we realize that a player with a horrible track record is a questionable boyfriend, much less husband. If I knew that a guy I was dating had slept with many women, I would think “what’s stopping him from continuing that behavior now?”

    “Nice guys are essentially the equivalent of fat, unattractive women. They like them, might marry them because they are nice, respectful and provide stable income, but they don’t really get their motor running like players, jerks and other bad boys do.”

    It’s not the niceness that repels women–it’s the lack of balls so prevalent among nice men. My problem with nice men is that they have a difficult time conveying their interest in a woman beyond a polite hello and smile. A woman can be as receptive as she can and lay out all the indicators of her interest in him, but it is frustrating for her to wait…and wait for the nice guy to pull the trigger and ask her out.

    Why is it that the men we want to talk to don’t approach us, yet the obnoxious ones often do? A while ago, I was interested in a man who moved in across the street to me. I knew he was interested because I caught him staring at me a few times, and often looked at me a little longer than usual. So, I would make a point of walking my dog by his house and saying hi. He would also say hello when he saw me…yet, the day he moved out I ran into him again…he had the look of desperation in his eyes because he knew he’d never see me again. To this day, I wished I had initiated a conversation. I only know his name…Brian. I regret not having the guts to do anything. I LOATHE “what if’s” in life. Yet, today, I had some dude in the neighborhood holler at me from his car about wanting to walk with my dog and me.

    Here’s a lesson to all you nice guys: Gather whatever is left of your ego and approach her! What’s the worst that could happen?

    “It seems like the sense of unpredictability and danger turn women on. These traits can be faked, just look at the case of the students who had recently graduated college with honors who were dressing like gangsters and playing loud music at a party, probably in an attempt to impress women. The neighbors were so alarmed by these “bad boys” they called the police and that is when their deception was uncovered. But isn’t that crazy. They are honest student, who just graduated a prestigious university and have gotten law degrees, yet, they feel like they have to dress like thugs and act like idiots.”

    Neither I nor any of my girlfriends have ever been interested in a man who dresses and acts like a thug. Hell, I’d be impressed to know the object of my interest has a law degree. But I’m just speaking for those within my social circle and myself.

    1. 50.1

      Noemi, I am a former nice guy, you make some great points. They do need to approach more women and be more direct. Not being more direct was a major mistake I made when I was younger and I see how that would be frustrating to women. One thing I encountered over and over again when I was a nice guy, is girls who seemed to be attracted to me, would become disinterested and seem to drift away if I was nice to them. They would just suddenly lose interest. Everything would start so promising but their interest just seemed to fall apart. On the other hand, I would see bad boys around me having their pick of women. I didn’t understand it.

      I was SO depressed about this, I talked to all my female friends, I was told I was a “great catch,” to be myself and to continue being nice. I always ended up in the same place following their advice. A total failure. I remember in my darkest hour many, many years ago, thinking to myself, I have to change. At the time, I was the only virgin in my circle of friends. So I had many things going badly for me. Being a nice, shy guy is bad enough, but if women didn’t get turned off by personality, they ran and ran fast when they discovered I was a virgin. Somehow they were able to figure this out, even though I didn’t tell them. It was pretty horrible. Everyone knows that one of the top things that turns off and repulses women are male virgins. And a nice guy one, was just frankly disgusting. It is the male equivalent of a four hundred pound woman — in spandex. Not sexually attractive at all and actually disgusting.

      Anyway, from that moment on, I decided to change things. I started getting counseling to handle my anxiety and depression and really put a major effort into improving this area. As part of that I began to study the art of pickup. I am not a master pickup artist unfortunately, but I am much, much better than I was. I have learned so much, but one of the first thing that helped me get into my first long term relationship, was a concept pickup artists call this the “empty restaurant phenomena.” In other words, a man that is successful with women can be compared to a “full restaurant.” It has a lot of business and attracts more business because people figure it is busy because it is good. Success feeds on itself. On the other hand, an empty restaurant may be better than the full restaurant, the food may be better, the service may be better, everything can be better, but people avoid it because it is empty. It is one of the reason why nice guys struggle with relationships and bad boys and jerks don’t. Basically if a woman perceives a guy has lots of options (a full restaurant), she is more likely to go with him, be a good girlfriend and stay with him. If she perceives that he is a typical nice guy, who doesn’t have so many options, she either won’t date him, or if she does she won’t value him so much. He is an “empty restaurant” and therefore he must not be very good. Others have mentioned this phenomena and told guys to simply “improve themselves” and “get better” over time. However, the pickup community has a far better solution, one that I employed that helped me lose my virginity, so many years ago and get into my first relatively long term relationship. Deception. If the “restaurant is empty, deception is absolutely necessary and must be practiced. What does this mean? It means that any means must be used in order to convince the woman that the “restaurant is full.” What does this mean in practice? It means not changing who you are, but absolutely lying about your sexual history. It means taking whatever actions are necessary to fool the woman into thinking you are attractive to other women. There are many ways and means of convincing her of this. And when I noticed how well this worked, I was hooked. And by doing exactly the opposite of what all my female friends had told me to do. And at that moment, I began my recovery from being a nice guy, to a guy who is actually effective. It is crazy, I am currently single, but if I tell girls I have a girlfriend, they are FAR more interested. The minute I told her “I have a girlfriend,” she was all over me and we ended up going home together. Another thing I learned from pickup. Honesty is certainly not the best policy. And what women say they want is certainly NOT what they want. Don’t be angry with me. I don’t make the rules, I just live by them. Once I rack up enough experience, THEN I can be honest. But not until that point.

      The guy you describe, Frank, who was cheating on some poor girl was simply a jerk. There is no reason to tell a woman you are exclusive if you are not. There is no reason to play with her emotions. In my view, a true alpha male, a true player, wouldn’t hide this fact. He would be upfront and straightforward and women would STILL want him. A great book on this subject is called Mode One: Tell the Women What You Are REALLY Thinking by Alan Roger Currie. Again, on the flip side, if a man wants a REAL relationship, he should be open and direct about this as well. And women need to be upfront, honest and direct as well.

      1. 50.1.1

        You’re right about the “empty restaurant phenomena.” This seems to work with men as well, however. Men are attracted to the pretty girl who obviously has options. They feel good when she wants them over other guys who are vying for her.

        I’ve read a few books about pickup artistry, and I have to say that most of that stuff works. It’s based on neurolinguistic programming, which is effective in influencing and attracting people: Increase your value by acting like you have other options. Never be afraid to walk away from a target of interest. Be original. Don’t use the cheesy pick-up lines that all men use.

        We all want what we can’t have, and the woman who went home with you after you mentioned your girlfriend is a sucker for getting what she perceives she can’t have, and her moral compass is skewed a bit.

        Yes, pickup artistry works for attracting women, but it’s missing something crucial, I.e. how to keep them.

        1. Adam


          As a man, I’m attracted to woman, even if other men aren’t into her. I am not attracted to some women that tons of men are into. For example, a lot of men are attracted to the “huge booty” (actually obese) women. This turns me off, I don’t want some chick who is obese. You don’t have to be super model skinny, but if you are 100+ pounds overweight, this is simply disgusting.

          Yes, pickup does work. Making women think you are a player with a checkered history does work. The advice women have given for countless years, of being nice, of being yourself, of being “real,” of “opening up,” to your woman, is a complete and utter failure. That is why I am advocate what I advocate. I have been depressed. I have been at the bottom. I know what was keeping me there. My own depression and anxiety and beyond that, all the bad advice I got from my female friends and relatives.

          As to keeping women, in a long term relationship, it is essential that the woman know that you have tons of options and always be on her best behavior. If she thinks you are too nice and too devoted, she will leave. Always be willing and able to walk away. Always have a prenup. A pickup artist is more likely to keep a woman than a kind, nice respectful guy. Once again, the nice guy finishes last.

          What I have described is 100% opposite of what young men are taught. And that is the problem with male female relations today.

        2. Karmic Equation


          I dated the nice guys in my 20s, was married to a nice guy through my 30s, then was the gf of a reformed bad boy for 6 years, and then the gf of a “major” player (as a girl warned me) for about a year, and dated a wanna-be player for 9-months. And in that same 9 months I dated some nice guys for one to three dates.

          So I think I have a good basis of comparison on between bad boys and nice guys.

          One nice guy had been a friend for over a year before he finally asked me out. I knew him to be a really good person and already recognized that he would have been a devoted, loyal, and kind boyfriend. The problem was I was undecided about how attracted I was to him. He was slightly overweight, balding, but not ugly. I just wasn’t sure if I could see him being my lover. So while I was still ambivalent about my attraction to him, he started offering to come over and cuddle with with me during a snowstorm. He called me the day of the storm to see if I needed shoveling out. His offers came from a good place, but he was putting pressure on me to decide whether I was attracted to him or not. And since it wasn’t a no-brainer YES! I had to go with no. If he had given me time to date him some more to see if my attraction could grow, it might have been different. But his pressure forced me to make a quick decision. He and I are still friends, but I kinda sorta had to do a vanishing act on him for a little while.

          I had one date with another nice guy who was divorced for about a year, after having been married to his HS sweetheart for over 20 yrs. I gave him a very sexy good night kiss after our first date when he walked me to my car. And in a text a day or so later, he says “I thought you were going to pull me into the car with you!” — In the meantime, I’m thinking, “Wow, he’s been deprived” because while the kiss I gave him was hot, it was definitely NOT the “I want to jump your bones” kind of kiss he interpreted it to be. Again, my attraction to him was probably about a 5-6 and I was open to dating him some more to see if the attraction would build. So after about a week, he texts, “Can I assume you’re not interested?” From that I surmised that he was used to women texting or contacting him regularly after a date, while I was in do-nothing mode waiting for him to ask for a next date. I don’t remember how I replied to him. I was friendly but probably not friendly enough in his mind because he never contacted me again. His loss.

          The moral of the stories is that “nice guys” don’t seem to know how to handle their sexual attraction and inadvertently push too fast for a decision from the woman on that attraction before the woman is ready to make it. The reality is that most “nice guys” are NOT hot. And if a guy is “not hot” a girl needs time to get to know him to build that attraction. And, luckily for guys, there’s an alternate way into a girl’s pants when he’s not-hot. Unlike for girls, who don’t get any chance at a guy if she’s not hot (to him) to start unless he has beer goggles on.

          When you force a woman to make a decision about her attraction to you before she’s ready, it’s going to be no. And this is coming from a woman who’s has no probs with ONS and NSA sex.

          I think one of the reasons PUA tactics work is because it teaches a guy to NOT pressure a girl on a decision about her attraction. It’s no different than how men will say “no” to a relationship if a girl pressures him for a decision before he’s ready. Both genders need space to make those decisions. And pressure forces both sexes to the NO side.

          So nice guys, take heed. Just as Evan advises women to not pressure guys for commitment and let him offer it, men need to do the same about attraction. Don’t make us make a decision about our attraction to you when we’re on the fence.

          But this is the paradox, though: Bad boys won’t ASK to kiss a girl good night, he’ll just do it. He doesn’t ask if he can touch her, he just does it. But he pays attention if she moves his hands somewhere else. No means no, even if not orally spoken.

        3. Adam

          Karmic Equation:

          You said: “The reality is that most “nice guys” are NOT hot. And if a guy is “not hot” a girl needs time to get to know him to build that attraction. And, luckily for guys, there’s an alternate way into a girl’s pants when he’s not-hot. Unlike for girls, who don’t get any chance at a guy if she’s not hot (to him) to start unless he has beer goggles on.”

          Completely agree with your point. You are 100% right. And you make other great points in your post above as well.

          That is WHY guys need to learn pickup, definitely lie about their past and actually pretend to be long term players. They need to fake it until they make it. They need to pretend to be the promiscuous, hot, player, bad boy and as they pretend this, they will eventually become this. And at that point, if they want a long term relationship, they can have it and not only that, the woman will love them FAR more than if they had simply been a nice, respectful guy who appreciated them. Most women don’t consider that attractive.

          Women are much more likely to stay around if they know you have had lots of women in the past and you can get more women at any point should you decide to do so. That is one great way to keep women around. This can be done many ways. The best way is to have a promiscuous, womanizing past and for her to know about this. She should also know that you lover her dearly and you should never cheat. But she should know that you can find another woman in about five seconds if she breaks up with you.

          As to “getting to know” a woman, these nice guys are usually too straightforward and honest with women, especially about things that women consider unattractive. They are not sexually aggressive enough. So again, they need to learn what kinds of subjects and discussions women find exciting and interesting and engage in those. For example, describe the last fight you got in, or make up something if you aren’t the kind of person that fights regularly. They will love that.

          They need to hide and lie about things which instantly turn women off. For example, I stay in regular touch with my mother. I don’t call her every day, but I call her at least a few times a week. I try to help her with money whenever I can. Her phone was acting up a while ago so I bought her a new one. A nice guy might mention this to a woman he was dating. I am wise enough to know that this kind of information would TURN OFF a woman, so I don’t mention it. If I were to mention this fact to a woman or she were to discover it, it would TURN OFF the woman and she would LEAVE. So nice guys need to avoid this subject and avoid many other subjects which turn women off.

    2. 50.2


      You stated: “you fail to recognize that these women are shallow.”

      Noemi, the overwhelming majority of women ARE shallow. So are most guys.

      You have to play the game with the cards you have, not the ones you wish for.

  11. 51

    “Yes, pickup does work. Making women think you are a player with a checkered history does work.”

    “As to keeping women, in a long term relationship, it is essential that the woman know that you have tons of options and always be on her best behavior. If she thinks you are too nice and too devoted, she will leave.”

    “A pickup artist is more likely to keep a woman than a kind, nice respectful guy. Once again, the nice guy finishes last.”

    The pickup artists can have the foolish girls. Checkered history? No thanks. Nice and devoted? Yes, please. If approaching and making the first move is what it takes for me to get a great guy without some shady past of being a player, then I am game! Grabbin’ these cojones and off I go to do some approaching! ;-D

    1. 51.1

      Pickup works on all girls, not only foolish girls. Good girls, bad girls, girls in between. They love it and eat it up. If it didn’t work, we wouldn’t do it.

      1. 51.1.1

        Emphasis on “girls”.

    2. 51.2
      Nhuan Van

      How do you manage to do that? Nice men like myself have been burned many times and I do have a backbone and treated my ex like a queen and she think I am not good enough for her. Become a gentleman with a backbone that are the same as been a nice guy and they still dump the guy.

      1. 51.2.1

        Being a nice man (or woman) is no guarantee that you’ll never be dumped.   But if your end goal is a healthy, mutually-respectful relationship, the only way to achieve that is to be a nice person and to pick a partner who is also a nice person.

        1. Al

          Nicely said Henriette.   I’d go a little further even and say that, just because someone breaks up with you, that doesn’t mean that they are not a nice person. It just means that they recognized the two of you were not compatible. There are often seems to be a knee-jerk reaction   to demonize anyone who rejects us. It can be a difficult process, for sure, finding someone who is both a kind person and also a proper fit. Sometimes personalities simply do not mesh through no fault of either party.

        2. Nhuan

          Hi Henriette,

          I agree with that part but Henri, I went through an abuse relationship where my ex don’t see me like a human even I stand up to her. I try compromise with her and yet she see this as a game. let just say “The grass is always greener on the other side”

  12. 52


    Pickup works on some women. NOT all women. But you need to have the package– hot, attractive, sharp-wit, great sense of humor, confidence to pick up women.

    Now, keeping a woman in a LTR with all the lies and pretenses is another story. Goodluck! Nic

    1. 52.1

      “Now, keeping a woman in a LTR with all the lies and pretenses is another story.”

      When the alternative is to be totally celibate, guys will choose short-term all day long.

      The vast majority of women don’t want LTR’s these days, anyway…unless they are with high-value men who are mostly unavailable/uninterested in said LTR.

      1. 52.1.1

        Completely agree.

        I know multiple former bad boys who decided to settle down and they have wonderful relationships with women who absolutely adore them. Compare that to the “nice, respectful” guys like I used to be. The “nice guys” are usually walked all over by women and treated like sh*t. One of my “nice guy” friends was cheated on by his girlfriend over 10 times that I know of. The total was probably much higher.

        1. Karmic Equation

          Hey, if a guy or girl remains in a relationship with someone after that someone has cheated more than once, then that guy or girl created their own misery.

          What incentive do cheaters have to straighten up if they’re continually forgiven for cheating.

          Either the guy really didn’t care that she was cheating, cuz she was hotter than anyone else he could ever get, so he let her get away with that crap. Or he didn’t care that much about her cheating as long as she “came home” to him. I suspect she finally dumped him instead of him dumping her. And that’s when he started to harp on her cheating.

          Guys need boundaries too. It’s his own fault he got cheated on that many times. He could have stopped it at 1.

  13. 53

    You are right. I don’t know if he was aware of her cheating but he was certainly aware of it after they broke up. And I don’t know if he dumped her or vice versa, but whatever the case, he was being too nice to her.

    But my larger point is these “nice” guys don’t have many options and they end up putting up with disgusting behavior by women, instead of exhibiting the abundance mindset like a player would.

  14. 54

    Unfortunately, many nice guys end up ‘missing the boat’ on dating/having sex with younger attractive women as these women are busy chasing bad boys in their prime years. It’s not until these women pass their prime (early-mid 30s) that their interests tend to reverse.

    All is not lost for nice guys though… confidence, and not being clingy are the real keys to a [hot and young] woman’s heart.

  15. 55

    From an emotional perspective, rather than a scientific perspective, I’ve become aware that I tend to fall for the “bad boy” when I’m lacking something emotionally–needing emotional closure from childhood or traumatic event, lacking emotional self-worth, or was emotionally illiterate. “Bad boys” or the kind of “males” you describe, will tend to create a reflection of your “bad” behavior if you let them, and it’s “easier” to process and recognize another person’s flaws than one’s own flaws. And since our brains process information emotionally first, then rationally, it seems one’s emotional intelligence is not fully developed or was “wired” differently from the start.

    1. 55.1

      I think that is on the right track. Most of the stuff I have read says our “wounded inner child of the past” is drawn to certain people, as they seem to symbolize that parent(s) with whom we had a bad relationship or none at all. We are attracted to that unavailable type for a few reasons. But none of them the right ones.

    2. 55.2

      Kristie and Starthrower68:

      We are attracted to who we are attracted to. I wouldn’t want to marry a woman I am not massively turned on by and I wouldn’t expect a woman to marry a man who she is not massively into as well.

      But having said that, we both, men and women, need to face reality. Not reality as we want it to be, but reality as it is. We need to stop being so politically correct with each other. Men need to communicate, observe and really understand, really what women need and want deep down inside. We need to strive to be the kind of man that attracts and keeps a woman happy and satisfied, not only physically but emotionally as well. That is what we should do. As men, if we are not this kind of man, we need to work to change ourselves so that we are this kind of man. That kind of man is NOT described as “nice” and “respectful.” He is not the “good guy” who will make a “great catch for someone.”

      A problem with men, is we are so caught up in Disney movies, romantic comedies, advice from well meaning but totally wrong friends and family and our own wishful thinking, we aren’t observing what women are actually attracted to. That is our problem.

      Trevor is right in that men need to be confident, but it goes far beyond that. Men need to read a variety of sites, not only this site, but pickup sites as well, to learn what kinds of behavior attracts women and then they need to exhibit this behavior. They need to stop “being themselves” and “being nice guys” and “great catches,” and actually start being effective with women. They need to emulate the guys that women sleep with. They need to lie about and hide things in their background that turn women off. For example, as I mentioned before, I call my mother regularly (few times a week), give her money when I can and bought her an Iphone when her old phone died. Am I going to tell a woman who I want to attract about this. Hell no.

      1. 55.2.1

        And, Adam, I’m curious about what you think women need to do and how we need to change. I’m not snarking; I’m genuinely interested in what you think about this. If good guys are all pretending to be players and to not take care of their mothers, what should the good girls pretend to be?

        1. Adam

          I don’t think women need to change or do something different. I love good women and I dream of marrying a nice girl one day. I have always dreamed of meeting Ms Right and getting married in a beautiful wedding and having kids. I have always dreamed of making a girl super happy and taking care of her and loving her forever. When I was a little kid and some of my female friends were playing house, I would play the father to the little doll. I have a very close relationship with my parents and always will. I am not “exciting” and “thrilling.” I have a good job and go to church regularly. That is really who I am and how I feel.

          But through many years of trying and failing and seeing bad guys and players get the girls, while I lost, lost and lost more when women I decided I needed to make massive changes in my life. At the time of this decision, I had been stuck in a deep depression and I would regularly cry to myself at night about why women seemed to not be attracted to me at all. They liked me as a friend, but not as any kind of boyfriend, although they said I would make a great girlfriend for someone someday.

          Of course, as someone who has some basic training in sales, I know that in selling something, the prospect is not going to change. You have to change how you market yourself and the image of the product. In other words, I needed to change women’s image of myself. And that is what I view PUA stuff as. Things you can do to become more attractive.

        2. Traveller


          Women need to learn to be honest, and to communicate in a style that men can understand. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Don’t guess; ask, straight out. Volunteer information, don’t wait to be quizzed. Don’t expect anyone to read your mind. Say what you need. Offer to help. If you can’t help, stay out of the way. Don’t play games. Don’t demand the impossible. Think before speaking. Be careful what you ask for, because you might get it. Don’t humiliate him. Never threaten. Don’t play hard to get. Treat him with respect, even when you’re pissed at him. Listen. When he asks you what you want, tell him, and be specific. Don’t ‘hint’. Never reward bad behavior. Don’t put him in impossible situations. Hear what he actually says, not what you want to hear. Don’t ask him to fix your life for you. Never accuse; ask. Don’t cheat. Never stay with a cheater. Don’t hold grudges. Respect yourself. Don’t make him afraid to be honest with you. When he apologizes, accept it. Ask all the same things of him; he’ll thank you for it. And when he gives you his heart, don’t break it.

        3. SparklingEmerald

          Henriette asked Adam ” If good guys are all pretending to be players and to not take care of their mothers, what should the good girls pretend to be?”

          Well, while boys were being schooled in the art of PUA, we were being schooled in the art of playing hard to get.

          I suppose these things “work” for people who like to play games, but as for a genuine relationship, I don’t really see how.

          It saddens me to see Adam talking about what a good, genuine, family guy he is, but he feels the need to be some bad boy player. He might meet his dream girl some day, and she won’t even recognize him as the great guy that he was, because he has become some caricature of a bad-ass player. (Do you wear a purple fedora Adam ?)

          In my youth I have been told MANY times that I need to play hard to get. That I let on that I like a guy too early on (also have told that I’ve been too picky). I’ve read “The Rules” and thought it was dumbest advice in the dating advice Universe. I was beginning to think playing hard to get really WAS the key, because the guys I was attracted to, didn’t seem to want me, and the guys that I WASN’T attracted to wouldn’t stop pursuing me, even after I told them in no uncertain terms that we weren’t a match. But I can’t hide my feelings if I really like a guy, and even if I could play that game, there would be NO satisfaction for me in a relationship, if I couldn’t safely express myself.

          I think finding MUTUAL attraction, affection and compatibility takes time and lots of rejection along the way. Pretending to be something you are not (as Adam is doing) might get you a lot of no strings attached booty calls, and maybe Adam plans on trying to turn a booty call into a real relationship if he meets a girl that he thinks he could fall in love with and marry. But a girl who would fall for his PU schtick might not be the marrying kind, and the marrying kind might not fall for his pick up schtick. I know the snake oil salesman peddling this crap say that this works on 100% of the women, but that’s just salesman crap-talk.

          I didn’t do anything or change myself in major way and after 3 lonely post divorce years I met my match. I didn’t play games, I didn’t “train” him to follow “The Rules”. I didn’t chase him, but he pursued me, and I was very responsive to his pursuit. He says he loves how affectionate and playful I am. If I had let those 3 years of being rejected by men that I liked, and being practically stalked by men I rejected, convince me to start playing silly hard to get games, I might not be with the great guy I am with now. I doubt that he would have tolerated such nonsense.

          And yes, my guy is a GOOD MAN, who takes care of his grandchildren. He told me from the beginning that he picks up his grandkids from school on half days, to help out his daughter. He takes his neighbor/biking buddy to his doctor appointments. He has served food in homeless shelters. He and I have a “date” to do community service for a children’s organization together next month. (He asked me about my volunteer work, and asked if he could join me) NONE of his care taking for his family, friends and the community was a turn off TO ME. It just confirmed for me, that I had found my match.

          Adam and all the other guys here who are looking for an excuse to be a bad ass might say that I am some sort of exception, but I don’t believe that I am.

          I just don’t see how pretending to be something you are not works. You might get into a relationship, but then you have to spend the entire relationship being a fake version of yourself. Totally not worth it in my opinion. I would opt for being un-coupled over living a lie.

        4. Traveller

          @ SparklingEmerald:

          Bravo, Emerald. Seriously. Based on what you say, you exemplify exactly the kind of woman I have always wanted to meet. Sadly, I have found very few who live up to your example.

          But I keep hoping.

        5. Adam

          SparklingEmerald: Thank you for your kind words. No I don’t wear a purple fedora. I dress normally. Primarily what I deal in is deception. Honestly, I don’t have the heart to be as bad as I need to be to REALLY attract women, so sometimes I engage in lies and deception to bridge the difference between as bad as I feel I can be comfortably and the level of bad I need to be in order to really attract women.

          For example, I hate cheating and cheaters. If I am with someone, I am with them. If I am not with them I am not with them. It seems cowardly to cheat on your woman or for a woman to cheat on her man. But having said that, tons of women are extremely attracted to men they perceive as cheating on their girlfriend or wife. Many women find single men a turn off because they think that if a guy was really attractive he would be with a woman. A lot of women get extremely turned on by the idea of sleeping with a guy with a girlfriend or wife. I am currently single, but there have been times where I have told women I was in a relationship just for this reason. I have heard of single guys going to the next level and actually buying fake wedding bands. On that note one of my married friends told me that he had to stop wearing his wedding band at work because it caused so many women to come onto him. Once he took it off, the number of women coming onto him dropped sharply. Another successful tactic, is coming to venues with one of my attractive friends. The women in the club think that the girl and I are dating, a wrong impression, which I don’t bother to correct.

          A girl I am attracted to and want to have a real relationship won’t fall for any PUA tricks. But the fact that I have a long history of bedding other women, will, in her mind, be a major positive. In other words, even the good girls want a guy with some bad in them.

          SparklingEmerald, you are a good woman and your husband is definitely lucky to have you. But younger women, in their 20s and early 30s, just don’t work that way for the most part. I don’t understand why this is, but they don’t. You talk about being rejected for two years. I was rejected by women for over ten years. Let me say that again, TEN YEARS of no sex, no relationships, no real affection. Ten years of being told what a great friend I am. Ten years of being told over and over again what a great catch I would make for some lovely girl. Ten years of following advice from my friends and family. Ten years of total and utter failure. Things didn’t begin to change until I was in my mid 20s and even when I decided to turn things around, it has taken years go get to where I am now.

          Even after I decided to turn things around, I STILL had a lot to learn. My first real girlfriend, shortly after my epiphany was a girl I met through some friends. She was in her late 20s, maybe a 4 or 5 on the 1-10 scale, but she seemed devoted to church and devoted to family which were major positives in my book. Even though she wasn’t 100% my physical type, I decided to date her and for a while we were happy. She had a daughter and her daughter really liked me. I thought to myself, ready made family, this is perfect. Perhaps we will end up getting engaged and married down the line. When we first started dating, she said she wanted to wait for the sex, so I waited for a month and a half until she felt “comfortable with me.” Everything seemed to be going on well, that is, until, I found out several months after we started dating that my girl who seemed like such a “good girl,” and such a nice, respectful, church-going, God fearing person, had had sex with over 100 guys. Not only that her daughter had not been fathered not, by “her former fiancee” but buy some random gang member from Compton. And before we started dating, she had a LONG history as a c*m dumpster who would go to parties where she would let guys do anything and everything with her. I mean literally, none of these guys had to wait at all before doing stuff with her. Before we got together she was just disgusting. And here she is, trying to play the good girl. I was shattered. I spoke to her about this calmly and respectfully. She started crying and eventually admitted everything was true. Here I was, buying this chick dinners and trying to form a relationship with someone who is essentially a born-again whore. And even beyond that, she didn’t understand why I would find this upsetting. That was what drove me crazy. And THAT is the fate, in my view, of the guy who is nice and respectful. At the end of the day, you might get lucky and find someone like yourself. Or they might end up with some girl like my ex.

      2. 55.2.2

        That’s sad. I have always helped my parents with finances, and I imagine I always will (grew up in poverty with blue-collar working class parents, and had the guts to pursue higher ed). I hope a man would find that endearing.

  16. 56

    Adam, you don’t have to explain to me. First, I’m not a member of the PC camp, secone, as reader of this blog, I’m well aware of the realities of dating. You wanna do the PUA thing, then have at it. Folks gonna do what they gonna do.

  17. 57

    The more comments I read, the more I realize that no matter what I try or do I’ll never get a kiss let alone a relationship, sex, or marriage. I’m 41 and yet I’ve failed spectacularly to do what many do at 14. I’m been called nice so much, but it’s meaningless. It’s not sexy to be nice and that’s clear as day. I don’t have a backbone, but have tried to have a backbone. It’s unnatural and I come off as mean and cruel. A positive, hard to find one, but at least I won’t be cheated on. A myth is that I wont have a broken heart. It’s permanently broken. I’m resigned to the fact. I have a nice house in the burbs, a nice car, a nice stable job. Could be worse.

    1. 57.1

      I TOTALLY understand where you are coming from. While I was never a 41 year old virgin, I really feel for you. The exact same thing happened to me when I was younger. Guys who are “perfect” on paper, generally don’t get the girl. “Nice guys” nearly always finish last. Women settle for “nice guys,” they generally aren’t the first choice.

      What you have to do, is start changing yourself. Start with small things and build up to bigger things. Rome wasn’t built overnight and your change from beta to alpha won’t happen overnight either. You have to fake it to make it. As to coming off as mean, women are more attracted to the mean guy than they are to the “nice guy,” but personally I hate being mean to women. You just have to stick to your beliefs and not bend.

      Even at 41, you can still get women, provided you lie about your history and why you are single. As long as you change your personality and lie about your history, it is never too late.

  18. 58

    @NASHWC: No its not all up to men? Really? It’s not within your power to chose to date women who are average or slightly above average (she didn’t say obese anywhere)

    I’ll agree that crazy and bitchy comes in all shapes and sizes but I think what Karmic Equation is saying that is that average looking women are often overlooked by these men always pursuing the supermodel types (apologies if I’m wrong on that, don’t want to put words in your mouth). It’s not the supermodel types are all bitchy, it’s that there’s nothing to check their bitchy behavior because there will still be men lining up for them regardless of what bitches they are.

    The same can be said of men who are very attractive or rich who are also assholes (not mutually exclusive, by the way). If they are assholes they know there are women who will still want them so what’s their motivation for changing? They may be with them DESPITE the shitty behavior not because of.

    Yes some women chose to be with a severely flawed man because he’s hot or rich (or they want to fix him or get some short term thrill) But to believe that women are biologically programmed to lust after the worst of the gender is just stupid. That’s projection at its most extreme. You all are just not noticing the millions of average girls out there dating decent guys because that’s not noticeable or fodder for a bitch fest about how illogical and hypocritical “all” women are.

  19. 59

    Well, fantasy is all about excitement, right? Why do men drool over the sexy, mud wrestling vixens of the world? Do they think that type of surgery enhanced sexually aggressive woman would make a great wife and mother? Doubt it! We aren’t all that different. Those “bad boy” characters are confident, aggressive and overtly sexual. They have the same appeal as artists like Lil Kim do for a lot of men. There’s a reason women who behave in a tough, promiscuous way sell more records. Miley Cyrus may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but she sure is wealthy.

  20. 60

    Vampires yeah!!! Love them 🙂
    But in real life I like good guys,they are much more straight forward about what they want in a relationship.

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