Women Who Earn More Than Men – And The Men Who Resent Them!

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From the New York Times

For Whitney Hess, a 25-year-old software designer in Manhattan, the tension that ultimately ended her recent relationships was all right there, in the digits on her pay stub.

The awkwardness started with nights out. She would want to try the latest downtown bistro, but her boyfriends, who worked in creative jobs that paid less than hers, preferred diners.

They would say, “Wow, you’re so sophisticated,” she recalled. A first look at her apartment, a smartly appointed studio in a full-service building in TriBeCa, would only reinforce the impression. “They wouldn’t want me to see their apartments,” she said, because they lived in cramped surroundings in distant quadrants of Brooklyn or the Bronx.

One of them, she said, finally just came out and said it. “Look,” Ms. Hess recalled him saying, “it makes me really uncomfortable that you make more money than me. I’m going to put that out on the table and try to get over it.”

But he never got over it, she said.

“The sad thing is that I really liked the guy,” she said. “If that hadn’t been an issue with him, we’d probably still be dating.”

Ms. Hess’s quandary is becoming more common for many young women. For the first time, women in their 20s who work full time in several American cities – New York, Chicago, Boston and Minneapolis – are earning higher wages than men in the same age range, according to a recent analysis of 2005 census data by Andrew Beveridge, a sociology professor at Queens College in New York.

For instance, the median income of women age 21 to 30 in New York who are employed full time was 17 percent higher than that of comparable men.

Professor Beveridge said the gap is largely driven by a gulf in education: 53 percent of women employed full time in their 20s were college graduates, compared with 38 percent of men. Women are also more likely to have graduate degrees. “They have more of everything,” Professor Beveridge said.

The shift is playing out in new, unanticipated ways on the dating front. Women are encountering forms of hostility they weren’t prepared to meet, and are trying to figure out how to balance pride in their accomplishments against their perceived need to bolster the egos of the men they date.

A lot of young women “are of two minds,” said Stephanie Coontz, director of research at the Council on Contemporary Families, a research organization. “On one hand, they’re proud of their achievements, and they think they want a man who shares house chores and child care. But on the other hand they’re scared by their own achievement, and they’re a little nervous having a man who won’t be the main breadwinner. These are old tapes running in their head: ‘This is how you get a man.’ ”

YOUNG affluent women say they are learning to advertise their good fortune in a manner very different from their male counterparts. For men, it is accepted, even desirable, to flaunt their high status. Not so for many women.

“Very, very early in a date,” said Anna Rosenmann, 28, who founded a company called Eco Consulting LA, in Los Angeles, and earns up to $150,000 a year, “a man will drop comments on how much his sales team had made for the year, which meant his bonus was blah, blah, blah.”

But, she said, “that’s not how we were raised.”

Instead, she said, she starts out dates being discreet. “I don’t talk about myself,” she said. “When people ask me, I’m going to be very honest. But I definitely don’t say, ‘My name’s Anna, I’m 28 and I own a business.’ ”

Ms. Rosenmann said that dating considerably older men helps her avoid innuendos from younger men who feel threatened by her professional success. She said that when she has gone out at night with men her own age and has to turn in early to be fresh for work, they have commented , “Oh, Anna’s an adult, she has a real job.”

So as not to flaunt her own salary, Lori Weiss, a 29-year-old lawyer in Manhattan, has found herself clipping price tags off expensive clothes she buys on shopping binges, or hiding shopping bags in the closet just so men she was dating would not see them lying around and feel threatened by her spending power.

“A lot of guys don’t want to admit they have a problem with it,” she said, referring to income disparity. “They don’t want to be ‘that guy.’ But I think it’s ingrained.”

She said one boyfriend “wasn’t too comfortable with me paying for things” on dates, so to make him feel better, she would surrender to his wishes. The two would just “stay home and cook, or just get something cheap,” she said. “We’d skip a movie.”

Women said the income disparity becomes obvious in all facets of dating: where you live, what you like to do for fun and how you travel. It often comes down to minimizing who they are – successful, focused women – with their dates, who may be lagging a bit behind.

Although these women often say it is men who have issues around their higher salaries, sometimes it is the women themselves who are uncomfortable with the role reversal.

Hilary Rowland, 28, bought her first condominium when she was 18, using money she had earned from an online business started when she was 15. Last spring, Ms. Rowland, who lives in New York, started dating a 34-year-old musician.

“I usually always fly business or first,” she said in an e-mail message. “The one trip where he paid for the flight – we stayed at a friend’s place – he didn’t tell me the details, then flew us economy on a 6 a.m. flight with a two-hour stop-over, from Salt Lake City, to save money. I would have rather paid myself and flew business at a regular hour.”

“When we broke up,” she added, “he was upset that I gave my ‘ex’ more gifts than I gave him. Meanwhile, the only gift I’d gotten from him was a small notepad.”

Ms. Rowland, like some other women interviewed, said that she has come to the conclusion that it would be easier to date someone in the same economic bracket.

“I love traveling, going to the opera and good restaurants,” she said. “It doesn’t have to be Per Se, but good food is important in my life. It’s sometimes hard to maintain the lifestyle I’m used to when I’m in a relationship with a guy who makes less than me, since I don’t want to be paying for the guy I’m with all the time.”

The discomfort over who pays for what seems to be not really about money, plain and simple. Instead, it is suggestive of the complex psychology of what many of these women expect from their dates (for him to be a traditional breadwinner) and what they think they should expect (Oh, I just want him to be a nice guy).

On a first date at a lounge in Hell’s Kitchen, Thrupthi Reddy, 28, a brand strategist in Manhattan, watched her date down several cocktails to her one, then not even flinch when she handed the waitress her credit card. Initially miffed, she recognized her own contradictions.

“You wonder if you’re being a hypocrite,” she recalled, “because all date long I’m telling him how independent I was, and how annoying it was that men wouldn’t date strong independent women.” (The relationship ended after six months.)

Michael R. Cunningham, a psychologist who teaches in the communication department at the University of Louisville, conducted a survey of college women to see if, upon graduation, they would prefer to settle down with a high school teacher who has short workdays, summers off and spare energy to help raise children, or with a surgeon who earns eight times as much but works brutal hours. Three-quarters of the women said they would choose the teacher.

The point, Professor Cunningham said, was that young professionally oriented women have no problem dating down if the man is secure, motivated in his own field and emotionally supportive.

At least, that’s what their responses are in surveys. Talk about the subject with women a bit older – those who have been out of college long enough to be more hardened – and what you hear is ambivalence, if not downright hostility, about the income disparity.

Jade Wannell, 25, a producer at a Chicago ad agency who lives in a high-rise apartment building, started dating a 29-year-old administrator at a trucking company last year. “He was really sweet,” she said. But “he didn’t work many hours and ended up hanging out at home a lot. I was bored and didn’t feel challenged. He would finish work at 3 and want to go to the bar. The college way of life is still in them at that age. All they want to do is drink with the boys on Saturday. I was like ‘Let’s go to an art gallery’ and all he wanted to do was go to the bars.”

TO her, his lack of income masked a greater problem: a lack of drive.

“I have to say that I didn’t like his career, I didn’t think he had the goals of someone I would eventually like to be with or have respect for,” she said, adding, “It wasn’t the job, it was the passion.”

Unyi Agba, 27, an advertising executive with a small firm in Boston, almost always dates professional men, but when she goes out with someone earning less money, there is tension. “This is a topic that’s traveled in my own female circles a lot in the last year,” she said. Across a restaurant table with a man who earns less, “it’s never explicitly said, but there are nuances,” she said. “Things are said like, ‘Boy I’m going to be really broke after this dinner.’ “

And her response?

“Silence.”

Okay, guys, what are YOUR thoughts on this thorny issue?

 

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Comments:

  1. 21
    verbosity

    I’m not so sure I agree with the notion of “Women get more emotional satisfaction from being with men who make more money than them because they feel ‘taken care of’ “ Perhaps on some level, but I believe women are conditioned from childhood to expect to be ‘taken care of,’ not that they receive more emotional satisfaction from it.

    As a literary criticism, I believe this story to be poorly written in that it is completely one sided (only interviewing the higher earning women), neglecting the point of view of men who have dated women that earn more than themselves. As they say, there are 2 sides to every story, not just the conclusion that men resent women who earn more than themselves. By the way, have you noticed that by asserting men resent these women the author has made these women victims? Curious coincidence? Doubtful.

    Several things in the story caught my eye…”The awkwardness started with nights out. She would want to try the latest downtown bistro, but her boyfriends, who worked in creative jobs that paid less than hers, preferred diners.”

    Also, “Ms. Rowland, like some other women interviewed, said that she has come to the conclusion that it would be easier to date someone in the same economic bracket. “I love traveling, going to the opera and good restaurants,” she said. “It doesn’t have to be Per Se, but good food is important in my life. It’s sometimes hard to maintain the lifestyle I’m used to when I’m in a relationship with a guy who makes less than me, since I don’t want to be paying for the guy I’m with all the time.”

    Lastly, “On a first date at a lounge in Hell’s Kitchen, Thrupthi Reddy, 28, a brand strategist in Manhattan, watched her date down several cocktails to her one, then not even flinch when she handed the waitress her credit card. Initially miffed, she recognized her own contradictions.
    “You wonder if you’re being a hypocrite,” she recalled, “because all date long I’m telling him how independent I was, and how annoying it was that men wouldn’t date strong independent women.” (The relationship ended after six months.)”

    Sorry for the lengthy quotes. However, do you see a pattern emerge? These women are successful and have earned the right to go to nicer restaurants, travel, etc. I do not dispute that. However, do you see the resentment in these quotes when they pay more than the guy? The first 2 quotes reveal ladies who resent sharing their lifestyle of nicer restaurants with men who may not be able to afford them as frequently, if at all. At least the third quote represents a lady who understands the hypocrisy of such a position (but still feels the resentment nonetheless). I think the conclusion is that these women are selfish, in that they resent sharing their lifestyle. I would also submit that a truly strong independent woman wouldn’t care if she paid more during the dating (and marriage) process.

    Now reverse the genders, do you think there would be articles in the NYT about how women resent men who earn more than they do in the dating arena (and therefore taking women to the nicer restaurants, travel, etc.)? Of course not.

    I respectfully submit that the women referenced in the articles, and those who share the same viewpoints, are selfish hypocrites. I know this language is harsh, but the behavior is selfish, and the resentment definitely hypocritical.

    Women like Jamie are wonderfully emotionally intelligent. However, in my experience, they are also very few and far between.

    One man’s perspective…

    1. 21.1
      Dr. K

      When the lady wrote that her date downed several cocktails as opposed to her one implies that she might have either felt taken advantage of or that he was doing it to spite her for declaring how independent she was. Either scenario is not the beginning of loving feelings towards one another. The truth is that women who earn substantially more do end up paying more and this may produce some feelings of resentment because one may feel taken advantage of especially if he is not making it up in other areas like the bedroom or cooking/cleaning.   It’s hard to be a breadwinner because what the said breadwinner were to lose their job, then the livelihood of the entire   family will suffer. It’s better to have both working parents contributing the same percentage of their incomes.

  2. 22
    verbosity

    Just to throw some more information into the mix….

    http://biz.yahoo.com/wallstreet/071214/sb119760031991928727_id.html?.v=1

    Essentially, it says that 74% of 30-something American women say they would marry for money. It further states:

    “The survey polled 1,134 people nationwide with incomes ranging between $30,000 to $60,000 (squarely in the median range for nationwide incomes). The survey asked: “How willing are you to marry an average-looking person that you liked, if they had money?”

    Fully two-thirds of women and half of the men said they were “very” or “extremely” willing to marry for money. The answers varied by age: Women in their 30s were the most likely to say they would marry for money (74%) while men in their 20s were the least likely (41%).

    “I’m a little shocked at the numbers,” says Pamela Smock, a sociologist at the University of Michigan who has studied marriage and money. “It’s kind of against the notion of love and soul mates and the main motivations to marry in our culture.”

    Still, Ms. Smock has found in her own research that having money does encourage people to tie the knot. “It’s more likely that a couple will marry if they have money, and if the man is economically stable,” she says.

    Women aren’t the only ones with the gold-digging impulse. In the Prince & Associates study, 61% of men in their 40s said they would marry for money. Ms. Smock says that as men get older, they become more comfortable with women being the bread-winners.

    The matrimonial price tag varies by gender and age. Asked how much a potential spouse would need to have to be money-marriage material, women in their 20s said $2.5 million. The going rate fell to $1.1 million for women in their 30s, and rose again to $2.2 million for women in their 40s. Ms. Smock and Russ Alan Prince, Prince & Associate’s founder, both attribute the fluctuation to the assumption that thirty-something women feel more pressure to get married than women in their 20s, so they are willing to lower the price. By their 40s, women are more comfortable being independent, so they’re willing to hold out for more cash.

    Men have cheaper requirements. In the Prince survey, their asking price overall was $1.2 million, with men in their 20s asking $1 million and men in their 40s asking $1.4 million.

    Douglas Freeman, a tax and estates attorney in California who works with wealthy families, says the men’s numbers are lower because they would feel threatened by women worth several million dollars. “The men aren’t going to say they want $10 million, because they wouldn’t be comfortable with a woman who’s worth so much more than they are,” he says.

    Whatever the case, the prices for both men and women seem surprisingly low, given the new landscape of wealth. While $1 million or $2 million may sound like a lot to people making $30,000, it’s hardly enough to transform someone’s life or make them “rich” by contemporary billionaire standards. No one in the survey quoted a price of more than $3 million.

    Of course, when the mercenary marriage proves disappointing, there’s always divorce. Among the women in their twenties who said they would marry for money, 71% said they expected to get divorced — the highest of any demographic. Only 27% of men in their 40s expected to divorce.

    Says Mr. Prince: “For these women, it’s just another step on their journey to the good life. They want to be paid what they think they’re worth and then move on.””

    This article, based upon the survey results, shows why it is precisely not in men’s interest, generally speaking, to marry. As this relates to the original post regarding women who earn more than men, I think the theme still remains the same…. that women, no matter what they earn, actively seek men who earn substantially more in order that they may benefit from his higher earnings. My cynical side says this is so predatory and rapacious….

  3. 23
    m

    “Men need to demonstrate more of the gentle leadership they were made to show, and ladies need to spend a lot more time looking up to, and respecting, their men.”

    I’m sure the latter will happen when the former happens. Not before. (After all, as you tough-o men say, “You gotta EARN respect.” Right? Right??)

    My mother taught me to earn my own living so I — and my children — would never be caught in a bad spot just because some man flaked on his responsibilities. I don’t see why men take such umbrage with this.

    All these men ranting about “it’s the women” COMPLETELY IGNORE the men making bitter comments to their SOs in the article and comments.

    “So the next time your man seems a little funny with you making more than he, remember, you have an option of not having a career and being successful…he doesn’t.”

    Based on what the MEN WHO FEEL THEY’RE UNDER-EARNING have been quoted saying in these articles, clearly they’re feeling they can take that “option” of “not … being successful”.

    “I place the blame squarely on the womens movement”

    Why am I not surprised?

  4. 24
    verbosity

    I just love comments like the ones from “M.” Her comment is one big shaming tactics, an emotional devices meant to play on a man’s insecurities and shut down debate. Her comments also demonstrate a disingenuous use of comments out of their context or a gross lack of understanding of the posts on this topic.

    Her tactic is simply to demonize men who ask hard questions which is basically an ad homimem attacks. Oh, by the way, it also argues nothing logically.

    M essentially uses 2 tactics that do nothing to address the valid issues posted, but are simply designed to shame men and shut down debate.

    First, she essentially calls the posters crybabies. – “You gotta earn respect,” and her unsurprised sarcasm at placing the blame on women’s movement (which by the way, is out of context).

    I submit that M’s post and similar ones indicates a happy, callous lack of understanding of the point these men are making. That point is women want men who make substantially more so that they (women have options (have kids, not have kids, stay home, pursue additional education, etc.) M and similar posters ignore this fundamental imbalance – that women, no matter what they earn, see having these options as their right (via men who earn more), but that men have no such option….it is simply their job to earn. I grant there are exceptions, but they are so few & far between so as not to be mentionable. The simple point is that we as men are just to earn so she has options.

    I actually had this conversation with my mother recently when she questioned why I do not want to marry. When I made my point about how I have no options but that women do, she said “That’s what you’re supposed to do as a man.” (Yes, even she knows the deck’s stacked in her favor.) I said, “Mom, they banned indentured servitude 200-plus years ago. It seems a better option for me to keep my freedom and options.” Her response…”Well, I don’t want to argue about this anymore.”

    The beehive analogy applies….the queen bee is served by the worker bees (drones, I think they are called). What M and the other women ignore is the divorce rate (see earlier post). This factors into things also.

    The second tactics M and similar posters use is to call men cowards, which is related to calling them crybabies. In doing so she essentially tells men they have an irrational fear of dealing with women. Specific examples are:

    “… or hiding shopping bags in the closet just so men she was dating would not see them lying around and feel threatened by her spending power.”

    “A lot of guys don’t want to admit they have a problem with it,” she said, referring to income disparity. “They don’t want to be ‘that guy.’ But I think it’s ingrained.” (Note – Do you notice how they’re saying it exists even where there is no evidence of it?)

    “Women Who Earn More Money Than Men – An The Men Who Resent It”

    ” . . .but men find my education to be threatening if they don’t at least have a master’s degree.”

    “You want to be respected by a woman? Earn it.”

    I would respond to such a tactic by stating much the same thing as above – that there is a difference between courage and and stupidity. And blindly being the “worker bee” would fall into the stupidity category. Furthermore, in taking any risky action (such as dating and marrying), a reasonable person take only calculated risks. In taking these calculated risks, you weigh costs and benefits, and in doing so, many men are finding out that many (arguably most) women fail a cost-benefit analysis.

    Insofar as the stated sentiment of “You want to be respected by a woman? Earn it,” I would state that men have increasingly less respect for women on the whole the more they realize that women want their wallet for their own options, not for them as people. In other words, you gotta earn it too, ladies.

    One man’s opinion….

  5. 25
    verbosity

    Apologies for a few typos. It’s laborious enough to type, let alone proof…

  6. 26
    hunter

    ……myself and many, many men, would like to date, more women, that, pay more tax revenues, than men do….we keep hearing that they are out there……

  7. 27
    verbosity

    Funny how I do not hear any contrary evidence how women do not seek men who earn more. In other words, women in general therefore seek men who can give them ‘security’ and ‘options.’ In other words, money or its equivalent.

    Hmmmmm. Companionship for money. I wonder what that’s called?

  8. 28
    Jamie

    Hi Verbosity,

    I would avoid absolute statements here. This is a very small community (if I would even call it that). It hardly represents everyone, in every situation, at every time… What would you call a man who pays for such companionship? Is he better or worse? Is he contributing to the “problem,” is he a victim, or did he cause it? Ironically, not too many posts above we had men calling women who supported themselves the cause of all social problems -rather, women should stay at home to be supported. Now, we have others that condemn women for wanting to be taken care of. Mind spinning, huh?

    Bottom line, we don’t live in a vacuum. We live in a social structure with a history. So many factors brought us to this place. Among this structure we have individual preferences/characteristics. Your synopsis of events: a woman that is supported by a man is a prostitute -her husband/boyfriend is a Jon. I see how you got there, but you left out a lot of the story along the way.

    Best to you,
    Jamie

  9. 29
    verbosity

    Jamie,

    Thank you for your comments. I did not use an absolute statement. If it comes across in that manner that is not its intent. However, I, and most other posters do speak in generalities and ‘more often than not’ situations. Reading any of my previous posts clearly indicates that.

    My mind is most definitely not spinning. The theme of this thread is, however, about women who earn more than men, complaining about it and the challenges they supposedly face in dating. Those challenges include expecting men who make less than them to still shoulder the financial burden of dating. Mine and other posts above have already pointed out the hypocrisy of such a perspective, so I won’t restate them.

    You further wrote, “Ironically, not too many posts above we had men calling women who supported themselves the cause of all social problems -rather, women should stay at home to be supported. Now, we have others that condemn women for wanting to be taken care of. Mind spinning, huh?” Sorry, but that’s not an accurate paraphrasing of the points, and lumping in ‘the cause of all social problems’ into your point needlessly exaggerates the point to an illogical conclusion.

    An accurate paraphrasing is that women who can and do earn more than men are not condemnable for what they earn. However, women who expect to receive money (or its equivalent) for being with men are contemptible, no matter what they earn, particularly when they are unwilling to do the same for men in return (generally speaking). Even one of the women interviewed for the article acknowledged the hypocrisy of this. You, unfortunately, do not.

    Further, I wonder why it seems so difficult for the majority of female posters to acknowledge that women more often than not demand money for their company (not the best phrasing, but go with it). Ignoring it and blaming men that are dumb enough to do it (which are most men) does nothing to solve the issue. Of course, ladies have no vested interest in changing that rule of the game, since it favors them so…. It is a ‘pay to play’ game.

    I would again state that there still has been little to no contradicting evidence how women do not seek men who earn more. Yes, I know there are rare exceptions, but even a broken clock is correct twice a day. If you have read the previous posts you will notice an alarming lack of responsibility by most women for approaching dating in such a rapacious manner, just pointing at men for being dumb enough to do it, a tacit admission of rapaciousness in my book.

    Lastly, if you are trying to call me rude or impudent for my posting in order to shut down debate on the point, I must take issue with that. I provided article and survey cites that support my posts and conclusions. I have seen nothing to refute it. Simply attacking the messenger of a painful message does not make the message vanish.

    1. 29.1
      Shannon

      Hi please see my posts above regarding biology in dating, women want men who are stable because they bear children and oftentime the need arises to stay home to take care of kids even though she makes a good amount of money, men look for women w youth and beauty (fertility) ….on avg of course , so I myself as a highly educated and higher than average earner would still like a man to earn above a certain amount (I don’t ask for as much as me or expect him to pay all the time or that, but first date or few dates yes, especially when women spend more time and effort and money getting ready for a nice date 🙂

      (Hey, Shannon, you’ve made 6 comments on the same blog post in a half hour. Maybe take a breather… – EMK)

  10. 30
    Jamie

    Hi Verbosity,

    I hardly would call my sentiments illogical -but that’s your POV. I have no desire to “shut down” this debate. That’s kind of funny. I don’t think you’re rude. This is an online forum -not something I would waste a lot of time writing a dissertation in a response. There’s nothing in it for me. I do see many holes in your argument and detect some misapprehension of my post -as in mind spinning to us all not you personally -and the blame I see positioned toward women for having a movement toward liberation (I wonder why they would do that if life was so cherry between the sexes…hmmm ). Anyway, I would not condemn women -and I would not condemn men for getting into an adult relationship while having their full faculties about them -irrespective of whom earns what. I do not need to manufacture some general conclusions about the ways things are. Take an evolutionary psychology course, sociology, gender….. It’s been done.

    To each his own. I’ve explained before that I earn more than my husband and no biggy -it is our money. A number of my friends are in similar situations. You and I have very different worlds -I suspect.

    Best to you,
    Jamie

  11. 31
    verbosity

    Jamie,

    I must respectfully point out that whether you believe you and I may or may not be in different worlds, is irrelevant. Again, this forum is to discuss the posted subjects, not to speculate about the posters based upon nothing.

    Additionally, I will kindly point out that I did not call you or your sentiments illogical. Simply put, the words you chose (“Ironically, not too many posts above we had men calling women who supported themselves the cause of all social problems . . .”) grossly exaggerate previous posts to an illogical conclusion. There is no personal attack at you or your sentiments. You offer nothing to contradict my assertion of an illogical conclusion but to mischaracterize what I said.

    Further stating that I am calling your sentiments illogical therefore is clearly either a mistake or intentionally done to misstate things. I would like to think that it is the former.

    Additionally, you addressed that post specifically to me, therefore, it is most reasonable to assume the ‘mind spinning’ crack was directed to me, not the board in general. So, I disagree with your characterization it was directed to the board.

    Respectfully, if you do see holes in my hypothesis, then by all means, discuss them, not me or other posters personally. As I have stated before, I have provided articles, surveys and the article upon which this thread is based as support for my posts. A cursory look at previous posts by you and others reveals a shocking lack of contrary evidentiary support.

    Even further, your statement “Take an evolutionary psychology course, sociology, gender….. It’s been done” is rude, patronizing, condescending and without merit. I do not make cracks about the personal details that people reveal as personal anecdotes for the points I make here. I can make several here, but won’t.

    You further wrote, “I do not need to manufacture some general conclusions about the ways things are.” just before the above evolutionary psychology crack. While you may not need to manufacture general conclusions about the way things are, that is precisely what the majority of people in this country must do. Business owners and managers must make decisions (ie. – conclusions) based upon the best available information to raise prices, produce more, etc. Judges have to make decisions (ie.- conclusions) based upon the evidence presented to them. Doctors must make conclusions about the symptoms and injuries that present based upon the symptoms and pathology. Potential homebuyers must make conclusions about the market in their area based upon the way things are to buy now or wait for further prices falls. I could go on, but I believe I made my point. It may be you do not like the conclusions I or others posit. That is fine. Please refute these conclusions with something. Do not make an ad hominem attack on me or anyone else simply because you do not like the conclusion absent contradicting evidence.

    I do not know that you like or dislike what I write. I do not care. However, I can say with certainty that your posts specifically directed at me are rude and condescending (as shown above). Where they have logical flaws or misstatements, I have also pointed out said flaws or misstatements, not attacked you personally. However, any poster should be aware that I do not tolerate personal rude attacks toward me. Let us discuss the subjects fully, thoroughly and vigorously, but without personal rancor which is unsubstantiated.

    Lastly, you have repeatedly stated on several posts in this thread you make more money than your husband. That is fine and kudos to you for career success. However, I submit that as a counterpoint to the assertion that the vast majority of women seek men who make more (see above references), it falls woefullly short. As I said, a broken clock is right 2 minutes of the 1440 minutes in a day. Those 2 correct minutes do not invalidate or refute the other 1338 ones, which is what I am talking about.

  12. 32
    lorelei

    Hi, Jamie –

    I didn’t find your comments rude, patronizing, condescending or without merit. That is a subjective assessment, one which, frankly, also has no place in a discussion if the goal is rational and respectful discourse. On the contrary, you are intelligent and witty and no more irreverent than Evan can be in his writings, which is a feature of this blog that keeps us coming back for more.

    I don’t believe your financial situation makes you as rare as the 2 correct minutes on a broken clock. I don’t feel I need to refute the assertion that the “vast majority of women seek men who make more” because that is an overgeneralization, but I will quote the Professor who was interviewed in the article cited by Evan:

    Michael R. Cunningham, a psychologist who teaches in the communication department at the University of Louisville, conducted a survey of college women to see if, upon graduation, they would prefer to settle down with a high school teacher who has short workdays, summers off and spare energy to help raise children, or with a surgeon who earns eight times as much but works brutal hours. Three-quarters of the women said they would choose the teacher.

    The point, Professor Cunningham said, was that young professionally oriented women have no problem dating down if the man is secure, motivated in his own field and emotionally supportive.

  13. 33
    J

    Not sure if this is best to post under this particular blog topic, or another – maybe the “Should the man pay for the first date?” In any case, this was on http://www.ican‘tbelievehesstillsingle.blogspot.com and is a real profile or personal ad from a guy. I’m sure there are some real doozies from women too. This one is for the amusement of whomever will get a kick out of it. I will not presume to assume I know who of our posters, male or female, that this will amuse.

    Subj. heading on I Can’t Believe He’s Still Single was:
    Be careful what you wish for…

    Posted Monday, January 7, 2008
    Older for Younger
    Age: 55
    Location: Tennessee

    Seeking younger woman…..if you ….are 25-40 SWF…petite…..like to sit around all day in your flannel nightgown stuffing your face with chips watching Judge Judy, Springer, and Oprah…..smoke at least two packs a day…want to live off my nice income….never do laundry…cant boil water and wouldnt know a sauce pan from a poodle….have five kids from five different men all within four years of age…couldnt handle a vacuum if your life depended on it….have no clue how to make a bed…owe more on your credit cards than I make in a year….havent balanced your checking account in years….dont own a car but want me to buy you one…want to travel the world at my expense…prone to cheat with the neighbor while I’m at work….will use my razor on your legs and not tell me….havent brushed your teeth in months…..have no clue what feminine hygiene refers to….if you can give swearing lessons to sailors….and would make a priest blush at confession….if you fear your bar will start to charge by the pound to get in…and certainly if you drink cheap wine….then you may be the woman for me. I can promise you the most erotic, wild, passionate, and pleasing 8 seconds of your life twice a week.

    Now, if you find humor here. Please send a picture at least five years old prior to your unexpected weight gain and a letter filled with nothing but lies about yourself and I will get back to you. It just might work for us. Serious inquiries only please.

  14. 35
    verbosity

    Hello all,

    Lorelei cited Professor Cunningham’s survey of COLLEGE (emphasis added) women, and his conclusion “that young professionally oriented women have no problem dating down if the man is secure, motivated in his own field and emotionally supportive.”

    This does not refute the things I cited at all. In fact the very next paragraph of the article reinforces my (and others’) point..”At least, that’s what their responses are in surveys. Talk about the subject with women a bit older — those who have been out of college long enough to be more hardened — and what you hear is ambivalence, if not downright hostility, about the income disparity.”

    If anything the articles and surveys I cited augment the article’s thrust. Unfortunately, the “vast majority of women seek men who make more” is a fact borne out by surveys of POST-COLLEGE adults. Believe me, I wish it were not an overgeneralization.

    I cannot make anyone acknowledge that women more often than not demand money (or its equivalent) for their company. Oh well. Simply put, men have to realize that 7 out of 10 women they meet have money on their minds, and to act accordingly. While 30% aren’t great odds, they are better than zero.

  15. 36
    J

    Not all of us live our lives based on statistics, polls and surveys. Many of us were never personally questioned to base empirical and statistical data on, nor were we polled on these subjects or have we subjected ourselves to taking a survey on such.

    I am totally cool with it if you do do that or you use it to prove your points. Or perhaps this is what you have found to be true in/from your own personal experiences. Your opinion, your interpretation of the facts as you see them. Your right to express them.

    And I have no reason to argue with you as I can’t win – not because I don’t have any valid points, but because I believe you have a very strong opinion on these matters and will not be swayed. This is how it/you appear to be, in any case.

    Everyone else here also has a right to their feelings, opinions, and interpretation of the facts as they see them. And a right to express them here in a respectful manner.

    Again, I have no beef with that – but knowing that seems to be the case means I have no reason to try to persuade you to see anything otherwise. Nor does anyone else, if what appears to be true is.

    As to refuting your argument(s) – you can engage in that all you want to in court and here too- with anyone who wishes to do so. You have implied that we don’t refute your arguments because we can’t prove we are right or you are wrong.

    Some of us don’t g.a.r.a. about that. Isn’t why we read Evan’s blog and comment. Most of us are looking for less conflict and better ways of talking, debating, and relating that help us get more of what we want out of dating and out of life more often and that make us more giving in return of what others are seeking.

    There is a difference between friendly debate and exchanging of ideas and maybe hearing or learning a new or different view from you own that gives you new insight and/or new facts to go on to further your own knowledge and become more of the successful dater and potential partner you’ve always wanted to be, and sort of getting up in someone’s face and striving to prove them wrong about whatever is or isn’t their opinion.

    Yes, some people do that here and that too is your right. I don’t have to care for it, nor do I have to agree with you – though I won’t say I always disagree with all of your points either. Neither do I have to waste your time or mine anymore trying to prove you incorrect in the generalities you keep making about women.

    I and other ladies have tried to show a different perspective and state that specifically, we are not all like the women you and a couple of others make a point (pointedly) to NOT espouse (in both senses of the word ; 0 ). Sometimes we have put forth a better effort than others, me included.

    I personally don’t care to be called on the carpet if I chose not to respond to another’s comment and be told that I didn’t respond because I knew I was wrong or I couldn’t support my argument. Or be told that I am incorrect in my logic and facts and be subjected to a major rebuttal for stating my opinion or what I know or feel to be true.

    I am me – and I don’t fit a lot of the stereotypes. Some yes, but not a lot of them Nor do a lot of other quality women out there.

    I know, Verbosity, that you will continue to post and that’s cool, and I will continue to read the comments sections of Evan’s entries and post if I feel like it too. But I am not going to justify how I feel or what I think to anyone because he or she says I have to or says that I can’t.

    You are welcome to your facts – and they are your facts, because they are true for/to you. Some of us have found the facts to be a bit different in our own lives with people we know. There is room for both – we don’t all live the same lives or know the same people. And welcome to state them as well. But your facts don’t have to be my facts because they are not all inclusive for me.

    There are men out there whom I wouldn’t date if they paid me. I am dead certain there are women out there that you all would gladly pay to go away ; ) – some of you may even think that would be me. No amt. of money or status turns a “personality” sow’s ear into a silk purse.

    I wish everyone the best of luck in finding both who, and what, they are looking for in dating and in life.

    On a separate note, I do appreciate the opportunity to hear from all of you and to learn and grow. I appreciate the fact that while yes, Evan does promote his books, services etc., he does also give real answers to questions for free without leaving people hanging and just saying “buy the book”. I was appalled, Evan at how many people were really harsh and belligerent in the yahoo comments towards you and your efforts.

    I may not agree with everything said by everyone all the time here, but I still appreciate that the people who comment here can state differing opinions without being ugly about it. And they do. Thank you all for that.

  16. 37
    J

    Sorry for the less than wonderful grammar and punctuation in my previous post. Proper commas and such often go out the window when I get long winded.

    Also understand Verbosity, that I was not trying to call you out in my previous post, just decided that one post to respond to some of your others and to some of your assertions would cure me of the need to leave a whole bunch of them stating a lot of the same things.

    Things I believe, feel, and know to be true from what I have read and experienced. May not be so for you.

    In any case, have a good one and thank you all for letting me have an opinion and the right to state it.
    J

  17. 38
    J

    Re: Verbosity’s statements:
    “I cannot make anyone acknowledge that women more often than not demand money (or its equivalent) for their company. Oh well. Simply put, men have to realize that 7 out of 10 women they meet have money on their minds, and to act accordingly.”

    Not going to try to prove or disprove this, but would like to acknowledge that I do think it is more likely that men in certain fields are targeted by women who are very interested in his income and earning potential (and would bet this also is true of men who target women in same fields for same reason). I think a lot of people, and women especially who are concerned with the man’s wallet are likely to go for lawyers, doctors, stock brokers, famous sports stars – men who they believe make the big bucks.

    Not saying that is the reason all women chose to date men in these professions (or vice versa), just acknowledging that it does happen in the dating world. And I do believe there are also good guys out there who might not get a fair shake if their income is a great deal lower than the woman’s. I believe a big disparity or extreme difference in anything – whether it is money made, personality highs and lows – yours vs. your partners, ambition, education – can make having a successful relationship more of a challenge. One person is bound to feel the difference a great deal at times, if not most of the time. Sometimes both feel it.

    This is as true of women making more than men as it would be if he made a lot more and felt like he was paying for everything all the time. Or if he makes a lot less, but still feels that way.

  18. 39
    sensical

    To those of you who keep moaning about how women dig guys with bucks, give it arest already. Yeah most do, though I don’t happen to be one of them.

    I just don’t think it’s particularly productive to focus on that point. I concede to it. And still find it no less unfair to judge men as mates by their wallets than to judge women by their hotness. Life is unfair, right?

    I think the people who complain about the rules the most are the ones who are losing the game.

  19. 40
    Hadley Paige

    To J: “Neither do I have to waste your time or mine anymore trying to prove you incorrect in the generalities you keep making about women.” “You have implied that we don’t refute your arguments because we can’t prove we are right or you are wrong.
    Some of us don’t g.a.r.a. about that.”

    OK, guys I want to issue an apology. I am not hung up on statistics, it just seems that way. It appears that comments here to fall into 2 categories. (i) what people have experienced as individuals and statements of what they want; and (ii) people making generalized statements about populations (successful women, short men, etc).

    I would never question the validity of a person’s personal experiences, BUT when people start making generalizations, then we have to be very careful that both the facts are correct AND the inferences drawn from the facts are valid. This is a great challenge as there are many logical pitfalls. So I will from time to time point out these errors of logic. I hope it doesn’t get too tedious.

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