How Do I Get My 12-Year FWB to Want to Be in a Committed Relationship?

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There was a time in my life when all I wanted was a boy toy. I had an exceptional career with a lot of pressure that took up a lot of my time. Still during that period I wanted sex, what I didn’t want was all the work and time a relationship consumes.

During that time, I met a delightful man that is 9 years my junior and was a perfect lover. He was always a gentleman, and always very passionate and completely satisfying. We have been seeing each other for over 12 years. We get together about once a month although lately it has been a little less than that. Our times together are always well prepared for and we make them an occasion. I always dress well, bring something sexy for later. He loves to cook and so always prepares a wonderful meal. We have wine and drinks after and of course lots of flirting and great conversation. I have attributed the decline in our frequency to our ages. He was 40 when we first got together and I was 48. During that time we have dated others. Also during that time I have gotten to know him and we have become sort of friends.

I have now reached a stage in my life where I’m retired from the high-pressure job, relaxed in my lifestyle and while I have dated others I have not found anyone as satisfying sexually as he is. I also haven’t found a man I like and respect as a person as much as I do him. I have reached a point in my life where I would like a more interactive and committed relationship. Something beyond the “date night boyfriend experience” thing.

The point of all that is this, how can I take this to the next level without ruining what is already there that I really enjoy? I also wonder if there is anything on his side of the fence as far as feelings go. I need a man’s perspective on this from someone that doesn’t know me and wants to tell me what I want to hear.

Thank you for responding in advance.
Eve

I’m not sure I’ve ever told anyone what she wanted to hear, so you came to the right place, Eve.

I believe you’re shit-out-of-luck.

I believe that, over TWELVE YEARS, this man has established exactly the kind of relationship he wants to have with you — one where you get together for sex less than once per month.

I believe you’re shit-out-of-luck.

I believe that you’re misattributing the decline in your contact to age, because it’s easier to handle than the obvious alternative: that cooking you dinner in exchange for sex once every six weeks is the perfect amount of emotional investment he wants to make in you.

I believe that the fact that you can say, as a sixty-year-old woman, after over a decade of sex with the same man, “we have become sort of friends,” indicates a willful blindness, a sort of wishful thinking about the depth of your relationship. If you haven’t become friends in twelve years and you’re seeing each other less, what makes you think this partnership is due for an upswing in intensity?

I believe that you’re lonely and don’t know what real love is all about — which is the only reason  you would accept this relationship for as long as you did on these terms and think that because he’s sexually satisfying that he’d be a good committed partner for you.

You know what makes for a good committed partner? A man who wants to COMMIT to you.

This man has given no indication that he wants to do that.

So what we have here is a disconnect of epic proportions. Let’s use a metaphor to drive this home:

You know what makes for a good committed partner? A man who wants to COMMIT to you.

You were hired to do one job — that of a part-time intern who comes into the office once a month.

After twelve years at this company, you want to renegotiate your terms – and not just renegotiate, but take the leap from part-time intern to co-owner.

Let’s just say there’s nothing wrong with asking for a promotion, but I wouldn’t count on it happening.

Your best bet?

Cut this guy off and start dating in earnest instead of mistaking your booty call for your husband.

Was that honest enough?

Evan

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Comments:

  1. 21
    Jeremy

    Buck and YAG, you are correct that I have no experience dating as an older man.   I have not been divorced, and I’ve been married for many years – since I was 30 -though I dated quite a bit before then.   So while I can empathize with your experiences, you are right that I haven’t lived them and don’t directly feel the frustrations that you do.

     

    Having said that, here’s a thought that may or may not be valuable.   I’ve gone through a number of challenges in my life and dealt with those challenges with varying degrees of success.   I have found that, most times, there are 2 mistakes that I’ve commonly made which have led to poor outcomes.   The first mistake is allowing emotions to rule my decisions.   Of course, I always believe I’m being rational at the given time, but if I were to step back and examine what’s going on in my head, there would almost always be an undertone of anger, fear, or the tell-tale itch of dopamine in my brain, leading me to Neanderthal decision-making.

     

    The second mistake is trying to be rational and predicting what I think will make me happy in the future based on my memories of the past and my present desires.   Not taking into account how the future will change and how my own future self will change.   This is insidious and dangerous, and can lead to outcomes just as bad as emotional decisions.

     

    This is all very abstract, and may not speak to you guys.   I’m hoping that you are happy in your lives – if you are, then ignore me completely.   But speaking as a person who was not happy and was generally making decisions that ultimately led to poor outcomes, the thing that helped me most was understanding the pitfalls of “affective forecasting.”   The book “Stumbling on happiness” was especially useful.

  2. 22
    D_M

    Ladies,

    Take a look at YAG’ s 19.2.2 again. It’s about being self sufficient. It has nothing to do with wanting to some how control you. I think it’s a big misconception that some women have. As you all know, education gives you the ability to make more informed choices. Most of us want our daughters, sisters, mothers, and whatever other female variant to be financially independent. We are not afraid of your accomplishments, we applaud them. The problem arises when you put the career accolades ahead of the family unit. That’s part of what I got from Eve’s letter to Evan. She wasn’t willing to give up any of her career goals at the time to pursue a LTR with mister “do it right”. Now that the career is over, she is available. Male or female, nobody likes to knowingly play second fiddle.

    1. 22.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      D_M,

      YAG totally missed my point, and also doesn’t seem to have glanced  at the study.   Since Stacy2 mentioned the NYT’s piece,  and because the author cites the same study linked above, here is a paragraph from it and the link:

      “And like Mr. Trump praising his daughter’s business acumen, men want different things in their wives than in their daughters. Changing gender roles look less threatening when it’s their children who benefit. According to a survey published by Maria Shriver’s Shriver Report, American men listed “intelligence” as the top quality they valued in both a wife and a daughter, but then the responses split: More men said they wanted their wives to be attractive and sweet than said the same about their female children. For daughters, men ranked being independent, strong and principled as more important qualities than those same characteristics in wives. Two-thirds of men want an independent daughter, but only one in three wants an independent wife. Fourteen percent of men said they wanted a wife who was a homemaker; just 5 percent said the same about their daughters.”

      https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/opinion/campaign-stops/why-men-want-to-marry-melanias-and-raise-ivankas.html?_r=0

      The gist of it is women get different messages on what is important or what being a “good” woman is from the men in their life.   So when the primary male influence in  our childhood and young adult years, our fathers and grandfathers, praise our intelligence, encourage us to develop talents, and reward us when we achieve results, do you see where it’s understandable that a few hackles might be raised when we’re subsequently told that “Men don’t care about your education, achievements, or career”?   Just a few steps more and we’re at “Men don’t like/are uncomfortable with/resent your education, achievements, or career”

      Sometimes it seems that men view daughters/sisters and dates/wives as two unrelated species.   When I talk about having an integrated view of the opposite sex, what I mean is that I would treat a boyfriend/husband the same way I would want a woman to treat my son.   I would not want either of my sons to be treated as nothing more than a wallet by a woman.   At the same time, I don’t see the men I date as ATM machines, and I’m not searching for a husband to financially support me.   If one of my boys told me that a woman said she couldn’t be in a relationship with him because he didn’t make enough money, I would tell him she  is the one with the problem, her priorities are messed up.

      Both YAG and Buck made blanket statements that women their age are physically repulsive.   When their respective daughters  hit this this “ugly age” are they going to inform them that  no man will ever want to be with them because they don’t want to wake up in the morning next to a woman who is repulsive because lack of estrogen has made her  skin hideous?   How would they react if one of their daughters was upset because a man who was her age (or heck, 5 years older than her) told her she was “too old” for him, but hey, “biology”?

      1. 22.1.1
        Kenley

        I think you are making a really, really good point — one that I don’t think has been discussed before — that is it men who are giving women a mixed message concerning what they value in a woman.   Before, this article,   the suggestion seemed to be that   women told other women that men praised intellengence and independence, etc.      If fathers are indeed valuing achievement and indedpence that in their daughters, no wonder women are confused!

         

      2. 22.1.2
        KK

        “Sometimes it seems that men view daughters/sisters and dates/wives as two unrelated species.   When I talk about having an integrated view of the opposite sex, what I mean is that I would treat a boyfriend/husband the same way I would want a woman to treat my son”.

        GWTF, I agree. This is one area in particular where many men are highly hypocritical and most women are much more reasonable and fair minded. This double standard is so prevalent, it’s often the source of comedies and romantic comedies alike.

        Have you seen “What Women Want” with Mel Gibson and Helen Hunt? (It’s an older movie… 2000, maybe). Gibson’s character is a womanizing, egotistical ad exec that has an accident which allows him to actually hear women’s thoughts. It’s pretty funny. In one scene, he tells a colleague, “Guess what? Women don’t have penis envy! That’s a complete lie! Men do! WE have penis envy!” Lol. In another scene, he is completely distraught that his 15 year old daughter was invited to the prom by an 18 year old. When he tries to explain to his teenage daughter that boys only want one thing, he’s able to hear his daughter’s thoughts which are pretty unflattering about his womanizing ways. Anyway, if you haven’t seen it, watch it when you can. Funny stuff! 😉

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          KK,

          I have seen it!   Maybe I’ll check and see if it’s on Netflix.   I need something to laugh at while I sort and fold about 10 loads of laundry 😉

      3. 22.1.3
        Yet Another Guy

        @GWtF

        Both YAG and Buck made blanket statements that women their age are physically repulsive.  

        Physically repulsive is a bit strong.   Are women who have gone through menopause less attractive on average than women who have not, absolutely, and so are men who have traversed age fifty.   However, a man who looks good for his age should not have to settle for a woman his age just because she feels that she is entitled to a man from her peer age group.   That is pure nonsense.   No one is entitled to anything in this world.   From what I have seen, women my age who still look good for their age do not have a problem getting dates with men of all ages.     If a woman is not attracting men her age, she needs to work on her figure, hair, nails, makeup, and/or wardrobe (just as a man has to get fit and work on his grooming and wardrobe if he wants to attract members of the opposite sex).   If all of those feminine attributes are right, a woman will have no problem attracting a man.   When applied correctly, makeup can work wonders for a woman.   A large percentage of the fiftysomething women I meet have given up trying to make themselves attractive to the other sex.   They sport short gray hair styles, rarely wear makeup, have not had a professional manicure in years, and their wardrobe is what could best be described as “momware.”   Do you know what I do when I want to see that not all fiftysomething have given up?   I take my daughters to Sephora. 🙂

      4. 22.1.4
        D_M

        GoWiththeFlow,

        I can see where some of the disconnect comes from. I believe it stems from a particularly uncomfortable subject for some men to discuss with the women in their lives. As I write this, I’m even trying to tread carefully in order to avoid the reflexive, “typical male patriarchal bullshit” sentiment. LTRs and Marriages require some form of acquiescence on the part of both genders, but someone must lead. You must find someone that you are willing to let lead you or that you are willing to lead without resentment. The discussion about leading conjures up feelings of historical oppression among some women, so the subject can be rather touchy. Obviously, the leadership issue only matters if you are at the stage in life where combining lives are important to you.

        It’s safe to assume that we all are striving for harmony with the the least amount of friction while combining lives. I tried to find the referenced report, but I’m only finding commentary about the report, not the original report. I’ll try to address the independence, strong, and principled issue from my perspective. I see those three traits as fundamental tenets that are needed to navigate life in order to make informed decisions. The wife question was probably answered from the societal conditioned “head of household” perspective. Independence, strong, and principled can be easily extrapolated to mean confrontational when wife is viewed insularly from her interactions with the outside world. Rephrasing the question to focus on how the wife deals with the world outside the home, would probably yield the same daughter/mother/sister results.

        That is the exact double standard that you are referring to. Our cultural interactions are still heavily premised on men taking the lead. Until both genders are comfortable with the role reversal, we’ll be faced with the conundrum. Sweet and attractive are probably being viewed as being more amenable to the husband leading. I believe that’s the perspective from which “Men don’t care about your education, achievements, or career” are made from. Having to continually wrestle for control of the family direction with your significant other gets tiring. This dovetails back to independence, strong, and principled. Armed with those traits, young padawans should be able to select the right husband with the disposition she requires.

  3. 23
    Marika

    Evan  

    It’s such a shame you’ve had to make the exact same point here 5 times (and countless other times elsewhere). How is it not crystal clear that if you agree with nothing this blog and your work stands for, it’s best to move along rather than relentlessly press your point and create negativity.

    Appreciate your patience. Know that your advice and mindset are greatly valued by the majority of us.

    1. 23.1
      Just Saying

      Marika, that these people persist here with their negativity suggest a very very deep seated unhappiness and it is their subconscious way of imploring members of the oppposite sex not to inflict the kind of emotional and psychological damage on their romanitc partners that they themselves have endured. Evan’s clients who are strong and successful tend to just focus on their needs rather than that of their prospective partners. Most strong and successful people – men AND women. Were Buck, Stacy2, YAG et al always like this ? I don’t know but they sure didn’t wake up on morning and decided Hey, I think I will just hop onto a romantic advice blog and spew inventice against members of the opposte sex and keep re-iterating how much contempt and disgust I feel for them and for romantic relationships in general.

      I wish and hope these people will find some semblance of peace and happiness. I know many older men who like dating younger women (my dad was one of them) and women who dislike men and have no interest in them whatsoever (my sister due to my father’s behaviour). They are happily going about their lives. My father kept dating younger women without feeling the need to vent about older women since he was too happy and busy doing what he was doing. My sister went on to career success and if she was felt old, lonely and unhappy, you would never know about it. She is too busy travelling theh world to   infect others with her venom, if she had any. Peace to all.

      1. 23.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Just Saying

        To be completely honest, I was merely looking for answers to problems relating to social dynamics when I encountered Evan’s site.   I did not realize that things were worse than I ever imagined until I participated in few discussions.   There is common thread that fifty years of women’s liberation should be able to undo millions of years of evolution. The message is “men need to get with the program.”

  4. 24
    Selena

    I am genuinely puzzled by the part where Eve says over the years they have become “sort of friends”. How can you see someone every month for 12 years and feel vague about whether you are actually friends? And why would you want more from that “sort of” friend after all these years? Even if he were willing to give it, which seems less likely, you just don’t sound all that close.

    And then there is this: “I had an exceptional career with a lot of pressure that took up a lot of my time. Still during that period I wanted sex, what I didn’t want was all the work and time a relationship consumes.”

    How do you envision having a fulltime partner now that you are retired? Do you see the two of you being together all the time? A lot of the time, but with time off to do your pursue your own interests and have ‘alone time’ when you need it? What happens if your partner wants more of your time and attention than you are comfortable giving? Would it ever be the other way round, you want a partner to keep you occupied now that you don’t have work for that, and the guy doesn’t want that much togetherness?

    You managed to reach age 60 without desiring a committed partnership, in fact using work to avoid one.   EMK suggested you are lonely. I wonder if you have too much time on your hands and are looking for a person to fill it up for you when perhaps you should be looking for a new purpose.   Be open to finding someone you would like to see more than once a month, but I think you would be wise to truly consider what having an every day partner  would really be  like for you.   Even retired you could  resent all the work and time a relationship consumes. Maybe even more so than when you had a job to focus on.

  5. 25
    Selena

    Since this blog is primarily geared toward marriage-minded women, why do you fellows who  DON’T WANT  marriage- minded women spend sooo much time writing here? This is not your target audience. What’s the point? What do you get out of writing the same things over and over and over and over, co-opting threads that barely relate to the things  you  want?

    I find having to skim/scroll through so many posts justifying why you want to screw young, fertile women tedious. If you can actually get significantly younger women for casual situations, why aren’t you out doing it instead of writing about it to women who aren’t interested? You are not “educating” us; we’ve run into your kind every decade since we were in our teens.

    Go away. Find a forum where younger women are seeking out older men for casual sex. Blather away there.

     

  6. 26
    Emily, the original

    Selena,

    I find having to skim/scroll through so many posts justifying why you want to screw young, fertile women tedious. If you can actually get significantly younger women for casual situations, why aren’t you out doing it instead of writing about it to women who aren’t interested?

    Bingo.

    Say it loud: We’re old and we’re proud!

  7. 27
    Shaukat

    Emily, no one is attacking older women, at least I’m not and Chance wasn’t either. This side debate emerged in response to Stacy2’s comment that men seek younger women because they’re easier to manipulate. Chance simply stated that there are biological reasons why men are primarily sexually attracted to younger women, but that men override such instincts when seeking an LTE (and yes, it’s also true that most women in their 20s don’t want 40 year old men). MEL even agreed with that statement if I recall.

    So Selena’s defensiveness and insecurity are unwarranted.

    1. 27.1
      KK

      Shaukat,

      No argument from me that a lot of men are attracted to younger women. Like GWTF, I don’t believe it’s solely biological.

      “…,but that men override such instincts when seeking an LTE…”

      Not all men. There are men who do seek out much younger women for LTR’s. Not to mention the fact that men also pursue women the same age for ONS and FWB’s.

       

    2. 27.2
      Emily, the original

      Shaukat,

      Chance simply stated that there are biological reasons why men are primarily sexually attracted to younger women,

      Ok, and women, for biological reasons, are attracted to men who can provide for her offspring. That’s also a fact, but heaven help if we female posters write about that. Then we are gold diggers.

      NEXT topic. I agree with Selena. None of this has much of anything to do with marriage- or commitment-minded men and women, the focus of this site. It’s just stuff posted to intentionally goad women and get them riled up.

    3. 27.3
      KK

      “So Selena’s defensiveness and insecurity are unwarranted”.

      Ugh… Why is it necessary to say someone is insecure and defensive for pointing out the obvious. It just isn’t accurate. EMK pointed out the exact same thing to Buck, YAG, and Tron. Selena directed her comment toward the men who were claiming that older women (even if they’re younger than them…LOL) are unattractive.

    4. 27.4
      Stacy2

      Chance simply stated that there are biological reasons why men are primarily sexually attracted to younger women

      This is getting tiresome but i’d like to drive the point home. Nobody is denying that men are biologically attracted to women who have visible markers of fertility (and being under 25 isn’t one fellas, stop the bullshit. to illustrate: nobody is going after an obese 18 year old). Similarly, women are biologically attracted to tall and strong men with a lot of resources. However, we’re far too evolved at this point and both genders successfully override their purely biological urges when seeking a mate. This biological shit has long been buried under societal constructs and pressures. Factors such as physical attractiveness (regardless of age), values, religion, core beliefs, status, attainability,  etc. play by far larger role in the whole formula of attraction than a “drive to procreate” or a “drive to find a protector”. Come. on. now. Nobody wants to procreate. Everybody wants to fuck (as has been explained on this site, when men have sex with you they do not want to be fathers… ). So, when this biological urge is so reduced and suppressed, other factors are what really determines the attraction. And the perceived “easy prey” that a younger woman could be is one of them. Yes, a 23 yo who has just arrived to NYC from Nebraska is an easy prey for about a year or two because she can’t tell a 40-yo loser from a successful professional or a broke party promoter from a club owner. And THAT is the primary attraction, not the fact that she looks much more “fertile” compared to her 27 yo counterpart. She doesn’t, most men wouldn’t be able to tell their age anyway, and this is fully societal issue so please stop trying to blame your biological   urges for your pigginess. The only women you’d be fooling are those 23 year olds, and they’re not here on this forum anyway.

       

      1. 27.4.1
        Chance

        Stacy2,  

         

        “This is getting tiresome but i’d like to drive the point home. Nobody is denying that men are biologically attracted to women who have visible markers of fertility (and being under 25 isn’t one fellas, stop the bullshit. to illustrate: nobody is going after an obese 18 year old)”

         

        I’ll be honest with you… even the fat 18 y/o’s look better than the average 35 y/o’s to me (on average).

         

        “However, we’re far too evolved at this point and both genders successfully override their purely biological urges when seeking a mate.”

         

        This is pretty much exactly what I said in my initial response to you.

        1. Stacy2

          So, Chance, who would you rather fuck: a 46 yo Jennifer Aniston or an 18 yo Rosie O’Donnel?

        2. Chance

          You do  understand what “on average” means, no?

        3. Stacy2

          Yes and I consider Aniston pretty average, “girl next door” type.

        4. Chance

          Stacy2, Jennifer Aniston looks about as good as a 48 y/o woman can possibly look.   Were you being serious with that response?

      2. 27.4.2
        Shaukat

        Nobody is denying that men are biologically attracted to women who have visible markers of fertility

        Actually Stacy, you did seem to deny this in your original post to Chance. You stated that the notion that men are attracted to younger women for biological reasons linked to fertility was “utter bullshit.” At the time, you did not qualify this statement by claiming that social factors also play a role in subsuming biological urges.

        However, we’re far too evolved at this point and both genders successfully override their purely biological urges when seeking a mate.

        Exactly. You realize that with this statement you’re now aligning your position with the exact same point that Chance was initially making? He stated that men override their biological urges because they choose partners based on other criteria than pure sexual desire (of course, there’s more to it than just that, because many older men, 36+, couldn’t land a 25 year old anyways).

        Yes, a 23 yo who has just arrived to NYC from Nebraska is an easy prey for about a year or two because she can’t tell a 40-yo loser from a successful professional or a broke party promoter from a club owner. And THAT is the primary attraction.

        I’m sorry, but this statement is unbelievable and ludicrous on many levels. First, this hypothetical transplant to NYC would be targeted because she’s naïve, alone, and perhaps vulnerable, not due to her age. A 35 year old naïve,  socially clueless, isolated  woman arriving for the first time  from Nebraska to NY would be just as easy prey. It’s interesting that initially you claimed that age made it easy for men to manipulate certain women, but now, perhaps realizing that position is untenable, you  throw in all these other variables, such as a young woman, who spent all her life in Nebraska, and had never visited the big city before (moreover, in this digital and media saturated age your scenario is rather unlikely; most young women would have a good idea of city dynamics, regardless of where in the US they grew up).

        Finally, let me just say that the nit picking over fertility statistics is not that relevant, because as GWTF herself mentioned, fertility studies do not  replicate the conditions  under which early hominids and homo sapiens  evolved. Life expectancy throughout the hunter gatherer period was maybe 22 years or so (it was 29 during antiquity), and sexual reproduction would have been regulated by tribe or would have taken place  through nomadic interaction. Evolution works by incentivizing certain reproductive strategies. Why does sex feel so good? Why did women evolve to have multiple orgasms? It’s instinctual and primal, clearly no man was sitting back    then and wondering how steep the decline in a woman’s fertility would be in five years time.

        1. Stacy2

          These are not unrelated things. A young age equals inexperience. Men are attracted to inexperience because it gives them the upper hand and control, and that’s what they want. A 35 yo woman knows their tricks, a 22 yo does not. This is what men want. This is what men on this blog said they want, many times. Why don’t you go enlighten them instead?

          Humans have not been mating based on biological attraction since the days of living in caves. For the most of human history marriages have been arranged. It is time you drop that excuse.

      3. 27.4.3
        Yet Another Guy

        @Stacy2

        Similarly, women are biologically attracted to tall and strong men with a lot of resources. However, we’re far too evolved at this point and both genders successfully override their purely biological urges when seeking a mate.

        Have you bothered to read any female profiles on Match?   I can assure you that at least 80% of the profiles fall into this category.   I am a fraction of an inch shorter than 6′, and I was starting to feel like a short man because so many women have my height or 6’0″ set as the base height for a man.   That is an insane disconnect from male demographics.   Three quarters of the male population is shorter than 5’11”, which pretty much guarantees that there are at least two women who desire a man who is at least 5’11” for every man who meets this threshold.   Please do not start me on the disconnect when it comes to educational attainment combined with height.   The gender that is guilty of checklist mentality is women (by the way, every major female primal trigger is covered in Match’s attribute list).   The constraints that men place on women are minuscule compared to the constraints women place on men.    Men have one major constraint; namely, does she invoke the primal urge to pursue her as a lover.    When it comes to age discrimination, forty and fiftysomething women are as guilty as forty and fiftysomething men.   Show me a forty or fiftysomething women who looks good for her age, and I will show you a women whose upper age bound is her age (or younger) and   lower age bound is twenty years her junior.   No one is taking these women to task.   No, they are saying, “You go, girl!”

        1. KK

          YAG,

          “The constraints that men place on women are minuscule compared to the constraints women place on men”.

          That’s right!

          “I  was starting to feel like a short man because so many women have my height or 6’0”³ set as the base height for a man.   That is an insane disconnect from male demographics”.

          Most of what women want would qualify as an insane disconnect from male demographics.

          Let’s see:   attractive, age appropriate, character and integrity, emotionally available, emotionally intelligent, and financially secure.

          What percentage of men do you think possess those qualities, YAG?

        2. KK

          Should have said percentage of SINGLE men in any given age bracket

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          Let’s see:   attractive, age appropriate, character and integrity, emotionally available, emotionally intelligent, and financially secure.

          The better question is what does a man get in return for being all of the above the way that a woman interprets these attributes?   We already know that most men are emotionally unavailable from the commenters on this site.

        4. KK

          “The better question is what does a man get in return for being all of the above the way that a woman interprets these attributes?”

          Something that you don’t want. A mutually satisfying committed relationship.

          “We already know that most men are emotionally unavailable from the commenters on this site”.

          Thanks for answering my question.

           

        5. Stacy

          @YAG

          Puh lease. Women give men chances for their feelings to grow all.the.time. Any half decent looking and decently successful man with any kind of options has VERY high standards for physical looks. So  the major constraint (does she invoke the primal urge to pursue her as a lover) that you say men have involves MANY, many things for men. That requirement list for women usually include young, thin enough, shapely enough, fashionable enough, etc. Women in general would give a man a chance for a variety of reasons (especially if he has a sense of humor). Men do not bend on physical attraction. Of course, they don’t care if they are taking you as a lover (in fact, it’s easy to  be a man’s lover and that means absolutely nothing)  but they’re not gonna ‘bring you home’ if you don’t fit the standard (unless they can absolutely not get anything else). Even successful women who don’t need a man’s money will pair up with an average or below average looking man for other reasons (Heidi Klum and Seal, Jennifer Lopez and Michael Anthony, Beyonce and Jay-Z etc.)

        6. Shaukat

          Stacy, with all due respect, you might be watching too many ROM-COMS. It’s true that men have standards for physical looks, but so do many women, and often the standards are just as high if not higher. It’s not uncommon for an attractive woman to next a guy after one or two dates MAX if she isn’t feeling an 8.5/10 in chemistry. That’s ok; that’s their prerogative, and I believe that men who want to play in that  league have to work on themselves to up their SMV instead of complaining,  but let’s not pretend that a guy who is a 6 is going to be able to score an 8 with ease just because he has a sense of humour (I know, there are exceptions).  In fact, if what you were saying was true then EMK wouldn’t have had to create an entire business pitching a central message to women that they should look for a 7 in chemistry and a 10 in compatibility.

        7. Selena

          YAG:  ““The better question is what does a man get in return for being all of the above the way that a woman interprets these attributes?”
          KK: Something that you don’t want. A mutually satisfying committed relationship.”

          Since you  only want casual situations with women under 45 YAG, shouldn’t your better question be how to accomplish that?
          What keeps you coming back to this blog? What are you getting out of it  really?

        8. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          Let’s see:   attractive, age appropriate, character and integrity, emotionally available, emotionally intelligent, and financially secure.

          Okay, let’s see.   I have no problem whatsoever attracting women.   I may not be a 9 or 10, but I am definitely attractive.   I met over 50 women on the online dating sites as a separated man.   Almost all of these women had completed at least a 4-year program, more than 50% were graduate school graduates.   Most separated men give up out on the dating sites out of frustration.     The women I date are age appropriate to me.   Apparently, I am age appropriate to them as well because they date me.   Let’s not get started on “character and integrity.”   I am certain that I possess both of these attributes.    I spent five years on active duty in uniform.   When you have made that level of sacrifice, we can discuss character, integrity, and an attribute that you missed; namely, honor.   Emotional availability is currently a big “no go.”   I have made that one fairly clear.   As I have mentioned many times, the ride is not worth the price of admission.     As man who has already been married and has children, I currently do not see a purpose in being tied to a women who is not the mother of my children.     I am not saying that I may not change my mind on this subject; however, at this point, I do not see an upside.   Emotional intelligence is context sensitive; therefore, that one does not factor into the equation.   A man and a woman will never have comparable EQs when it comes to relationships.   Guys are not wired that way.     I am financially secure, and I plan to keep it that way.

        9. Yet Another Guy

          @Selena

          I am in my mid-50s.   My target age range is 40 to 50.   I have no problem meeting women in that age range.     As I originally mentioned, I discovered this site while researching topics in social dynamics.     It was not until I started to participate in discussions that I began to question my reasons for wanting a relationship.     It became painfully apparent that divorced women want the same level of commitment that they received from the fathers of their children without their associated flaws.   The woman to whom I made that level of commitment gave me my children.   No woman I meet at this age will be able to come remotely close to that gift.   Please tell me what a woman has to offer that makes it worth giving up my freedom?     I am serious about finding an answer to this question because no woman on this site has been able to elaborate as to what a woman has to offer a man that he cannot get from his male friends after he has children and does not need sex.   All I see from commenters is what they want from a man,   not what they have to offer a man.

        10. KK

          YAG,

          I think you misunderstood me. When you complained that women have outrageous qualifiers compared to men, I agreed with you and listed some of the most common (or most important) ones. I wasn’t asking which ones applied to you.

        11. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Please tell me what a woman has to offer that makes it worth giving up my freedom?     I am serious about finding an answer to this question because no woman on this site has been able to elaborate as to what a woman has to offer a man that he cannot get from his male friends after he has children and does not need sex.

          And no woman on this site will give you an answer. As has been stated repeatedly, this is a site for woman who want long-term relationships and marriage. You don’t.

        12. Kenley

          @YAG — prove why I should give up my freedom….

          My friend had a saying about religion — for those who believe no proof is necessary; for those who don’t, no proof is enough.

          You don’t believe that any woman is worth giving up your freedom so no matter what anyone says, you aren’t going to agree with them.

          The cool thing about the times we live in is that we all have so many relationshiop options.   If you want to get married, that’s fine.     If you want to live with someone, that’s fine.   If you want a LTR, but maintain separate homes, that’s fine.   If you want a FWB, that’s fine.   If you want want a fuck buddy, that’s fine.   If you want a series of one night stands, that’s fine too!   All these different types of relationships are totally acceptable today.    No one gets voted of that island for any of those relationships.   So, why do you want people to give you proof for something that you don’t want to do, and more importantly something you don’t have to do to get what you need from women?   Again, I am scratching my head.

        13. KK

          YAG,

          “It became painfully apparent that divorced women want the same level of commitment that they received from the fathers of their children without their associated flaws”.

          Right again!

          “The woman to whom I made that level of commitment gave me my children.   No woman I meet at this age will be able to come remotely close to that gift”.

          I’m not going to try to sell you on the benefits of a second marriage. That’s either appealing to you or it isn’t. For me, it’s appealing IF (and it’s a BIG IF) I find someone who is right for me. I understand where you’re coming from. I do. I’ve had friends who have come to me when contemplating divorce, and (when there wasn’t infidelity or abuse) I’ve strongly recommended doing whatever it takes to save their marriage. You get ONE SHOT at an in tact family. ONE. Your new spouse will never love your kids as much as their own parent. I have no interest in a blended family while my kids are still at home with me.

          All that being said, the reality is that I’m a divorced mom with kids that are almost grown and I don’t think my life should be over just because I married the wrong person the first time around. A different man isn’t going to give me children. I have the only children I want. But he can give me the love I never experienced the first time around. A love that is real and lasting. For me, it’s worth a shot. For you, it sounds like it isn’t and that’s okay too. But pay attention to what you’re saying. Your ex wife had your children but if you divorced her, there was something pretty big missing. What if someone else can give you that.

          “Please tell me what a woman has to offer that makes it worth giving up my freedom?     I am serious about finding an answer to this question because no woman on this site has been able to elaborate as to what a woman has to offer a man that he cannot get from his male friends after he has children and does not need sex”.

          I answered that question. A mutually satisfying committed relationship. I can’t elaborate because I don’t know what’s important to you. In addition to having someone who loves you unconditionally and is willing to devote herself completely to you, what do you want? If you want someone to cook for you, find someone that loves to cook. If you want someone who will go hiking with you or watch movies with you, find someone who likes those things. There’s no blueprint. And if nothing I said sounds appealing, keep doing whatever it is your doing. No one is going to condemn you for remaining alone the rest of your life. Not to be ugly, but no one really cares.

           

           

        14. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          And no woman on this site will give you an answer. As has been stated repeatedly, this is a site for woman who want long-term relationships and marriage. You don’t.

          I understand that this site is for women who want long-term relationships or marriage; however, what I have failed to see is at least one female commenter describe what she has to offer a man that is enough for him to commit to being only with her.     The women on this site routinely discuss what they want and how they want men to be more like women.   Jeremy gets praised, but he comes off as the kind of guy with whom a woman settles down because she knows that he will provide resources and split changing diapers with her while she secretly lusts after a more masculine man.     There is more than a grain of truth to the alpha fux-beta bux mindset.

        15. Evan Marc Katz

          I’d respond as a happily married guy who has never been mistaken for beta. But it’s not my job to convince you of the worthiness of an entire gender if you haven’t arrived at it yourself. Now go your own way and leave us to the business of helping women find men who want to get married – no arm twisting necessary.

        16. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Jeremy gets praised, but he comes off as the kind of guy with whom a woman settles down because she knows that he will provide resources and split changing diapers with her while she secretly lusts after a more masculine man.

          That was nasty, and totally uncalled for.

          Jeremy gets praised because he is highly emotionally intelligent, he LIKES WOMEN and he is a HAPPY PERSON.

        17. Jeremy

          YAG, I’m not offended by your comment but I can see that there might be something important you are missing.   There are women in this world who would consider being with me as “settling,” and there are women in this world who would consider being with me as the best thing that ever happened to them.   And many in between.   The secret to happiness in relationships is NOT being more alpha so that the hottest women will lust after you.   It is finding a woman who considers being with you – the real you – as the best thing that ever happened to her.   And feeling the same way about her.

           

          And when I say that a person should feel that their partner is the best thing that happened to them, I am not referring just to how hot they are or how good of a lay they are.   Those things are only a part of the equation.   Martin Seligman writes about the “PERMA” principle of what makes people happy in the long-term – positive affect, engagement, relationships, meaning, and achievement.   You asked the question “what can a woman provide if I don’t want kids and have a declining sex drive.”   The answer, according to happiness psychology, is long-term happiness due to having a good relationship, more opportunity for positive affect, and if you look at it the right way, an opportunity to develop meaning in one’s life.   All of this is contingent, however, on approaching with the right attitude.

        18. Janice

          @YAG – “Show me a forty or fiftysomething women who looks good for her age, and I will show you a women whose upper age bound is her age (or younger) and   lower age bound is twenty years her junior.  ”

          Not true.   Most?   Maybe, but I don’t stalk female profiles.   What I can tell you is this is probably close to 95% true for men’s profile settings that I’ve seen online (3 sites for 3 years now).   Heck, you already admitted that your target upper range is about 5 years younger, how about that lower age?   I see many  60+ year old men whose range on the lower end is ~35.

          I’m upper 50’s, and my lower range is usually at my age or 1-2 years younger, with the upper age up to 10 years.   I don’t really want to go that high as I’ve been there and trust me, it was fine for the first few years, but when I was 50 and he was 68, the differences really start to show up…but I’m still open to it.

          I list no height ‘requirement’, no income requirement, etc.   Surely I can’t be the only one?

        19. Yet Another Guy

          @Janice

          Heck, you already admitted that your target upper range is about 5 years younger, how about that lower age?  

          My target age range is 5 to 10 years my junior; however, my stated range is 45 to 60.   I am not one of those guys who married and divorced a peer to marry a younger woman.   I married a woman seven years my junior when I was in my mid-thirties.   I start to get out of sync family-wise when women are in their late 40s.    A large proper subset of women in their late forties are empty nesters.    Many are already grandparents.   By age 55, a large percentage of women are already grandmothers with several grandchildren.     My twins are in high school.

        20. KK

          “I start to get out of sync family-wise when women are in their late 40s”.

          Lol! Sorry YAG, but why on earth does it matter if a woman is a young grandmother or an older parent if you’re not even wanting a relationship? Seriously, why would that matter? Makes ZERO sense.

        21. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          I have learned to never say “never.”   While I am not looking for a relationship, I would not completely rule one out if I met a woman who gave me reason to pay the price of admission.     I am still searching for a reason to commit myself to one women.    I was researching why people re-marry after they have raised their families when I found this site.   Marrying the first time is about having a family.     Marrying the second time is not so clear cut.     It is clearly not about having someone who will have your back as you age, at least not for a man.    Far many too many women have made the “nurse with a purse” comment for me to feel remotely confident that I would not be dumped in a nursing home if I were become frail before my mate.

      4. 27.4.4
        Shaukat

        No way is Jennifer Aniston in anyway the “average” for a 46 year old woman. And that’s not a knock against women in their late 40s-most of them lack the time, resources, and motivation to look like that. Do you think “The Rock” is the average for a 45 year old man by any chance?

        1. Stacy2

          @Shaukat & Chance:

          I don’t think The Rock is average for any age. However Jen Aniston IS average, her entire career and image is predicated on the “girl next door” looks. And I think her husband (who is .. gasp.. a few years younger than her) is also average. I think Justin Theroux is an average looking man. I think they’re both attractive, but i think they’re average. In cities like NYC or LA if they weren’t famous they’d be your everyday average 40-something people. I see professional women in their 40-ies looking like that all the time, and I do consider it average. Look up on google some women who’ve been in the news lately: Marissa Meyers (41), Lynn Jurich (38), Jennifer Blumin (40), this IS what a normal average woman should look like. Some example of above-average include Sofia Vergara and Heidi Klum.

        2. Chance

          Sorry Stacy2, but female attractiveness is determined by men.   Not by women.   Jennifer Aniston may be just nice looking now (since she is in her late 40s), but she is a 10 for her age.   You would be very lucky to look as good as her when you are her age.

        3. Stacy2

          Well, Chance, in that case by your definition my office, building and gym is packed with “10s”. I should consider myself lucky, i guess. LOL

  8. 28
    Shaukat

    Sorry, I meant LTR and “EMK even agreed.” Auto-correct.

  9. 29
    Selena

    @ Shaukat # 27

    “So Selena’s defensiveness and insecurity are unwarranted.”

    Why did you not address Selena directly?

    Selena has had a co-habitating partnership with someone 15 years her senior. She loved him. The age difference didn’t matter to her.

    Selena has also had 2 casual situations with men similarly aged- her choice at the time.

    None of the above would have happened without  Selena feeling a personality connection on her part.

    I’m not defensive or insecure. I’m bored with men writing comments, especially essay long comments, about how they want women younger than themselves for casual sex on a blog geared toward women who are not interested. What the fuck is the point in doing that?

    Seriously, what is the point?

    Those who can, do fellows.

    1. 29.1
      Emily, the original

      Selena,

      But please understand, Selena, that unless you are 25, your long-term partner and the men you had 2 casual situations with were not “primarily” attracted to you. (Sarcasm intended.)

      1. 29.1.1
        KK

        Emily,

        It’s obvious your female logic and female emotions have once again gotten the best of you and clouded the truth that’s right in front of you. Don’t you get it? If a 60 year old with a beer belly and questionable hygiene desires a relationship with you, you should thank your lucky stars and latch onto that hunk! After all, he’s biologically much more attracted to 25 year olds. It’s only due to his personal evolution that he could possibly prefer or urrr… settle for you. After all, those 25 year olds are practically knocking his door down. But no, he is much too evolved to give in. Pffffttt!!!! (Sarcasm intended) 😉

        1. Emily, the original

          KK,

          If a 60 year old with a beer belly and questionable hygiene desires a relationship with you, you should thank your lucky stars and latch onto that hunk

          I will! I would be lucky if any man would want me at this stage of my life. I have been writing incarcerated men all weekend in hopes of making a connection.

          You know what kills me? How often have the male posters on here said that women stop wanting to have sex with their husbands because they weren’t initially, “viscerally” attracted to them. You know who I’m “viscerally” attracted to? THE HEMSWORTH BROTHERS! Yes, even women have to override their basic instincts when looking for LTRS.

        2. KK

          Emily,

          “I have been writing incarcerated men all weekend in hopes of making a connection”.

          A word of advice: Please be patient with all the letter writing. I’ve enjoyed much success by waiting almost an entire week after initially sending 7 – 10 letters. Invariably, you’ll go for days with no response and then bam! they all flood your mailbox at once. I’m just cautioning you about TOO MANY options given our hypergamous ways. Much luck, dear! 😂😂😂

        3. Emily, the original

          KK,

          I’m just cautioning you about TOO MANY options given our hypergamous ways.

          Well, I would gladly chuck a lifer over for a man who only has a few years left! A girl’s got to do what a girl’s got to do! I warned all of them in my letters to be prepared if I show up for a visit — my skin looks bad and my butt has hit the floor, but they were probably expecting that given my advanced age.

        4. KK

          “Well, I would gladly chuck a lifer over for a man who only has a few years left”!

          Emily! No no no! You WANT the lifer. Trust me on this. No competition. Visiting on YOUR terms. Pretty perfect. Lol.

          ((Sorry, Evan. I’ll stop now. 😊))

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the orignal

          How often have the male posters on here said that women stop wanting to have sex with their husbands because they weren’t initially, “viscerally” attracted to them.

          There are men who have done the same thing.   That is what I did with my ex.   I will not repeat that mistake.

           

           

        6. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          My point was that women can’t always land the men they are viscerally attracted to. Thus, the Hemsworth brothers reference.

        7. Emily, the original

          KK,

          You WANT the lifer. Trust me on this. No competition

          Until a younger woman starts writing him.     🙂

      2. 29.1.2
        Selena

        Sarcasm acknowledged.

        I was in my late 30’s when I met the older partner I loved. Under 45, with the casual sit’s. Wouldn’t have considered a man 15 yrs. older when I was 25.    Ick! is what I would have thought at that age about someone so much older wanting to date me.

        1. Emily, the original

          Selena,

          Wouldn’t have considered a man 15 yrs. older when I was 25.    Ick! is what I would have thought at that age about someone so much older wanting to date me.

          Me, neither.

  10. 30
    Shaukat

    @Selena,

    You’re right, perhaps I should have addressed you directly. I wrote to Emily because her comment seemed to suggest that men were insulting older women, and I wasn’t sure who she was referring to. I’ll acknowledge that I was too quick to throw out the the ‘defensive’ and ‘insecure labels, sorry.

    @ Emily and KK,

    I agree that it’s pointless and counterproductive for men to post statements that older women are not attractive or are useless. I haven’t done that, and I don’t think the debate Chance and GWTF were having on fertility was driven by such a motive.

     

    1. 30.1
      Emily, the originalaa

      Shaukat,

      You are a considerate commenter. I don’t agree with everything you write (and that’s ok!), but you are not mean-spirited.

      I don’t think the debate Chance and GWTF were having on fertility was driven by such a motive.

      On a completely selfish level, I don’t care about the fertility issue. I never wanted kids, but there was this implication that a man is having to deny the women he is really physically attracted to because he a.) can’t get them and b.) knows that less physically attractive women offer better relationship potential. It’s similar to the alpha fux/beta bux argument.

    2. 30.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Shaukat,

      Just for the record, because things can get shouty sometimes, on that thread neither you nor Chance said women past a certain age were unattractive or useless.   As far as I can remember, you two never have.

      Emily,

      “. . . there was this implication that a man is having to deny the women he is really physically attracted to because he a.) can’t get them and b.) knows that less physically attractive women offer better relationship potential. It’s similar to the alpha fux/beta bux argument.”

      I’m liking the AF/BB analogy.   Everyone understands that they aren’t perfect and their partner overlooks some things.   No one wants to feel they were their partner’s Plan D.   I do wonder however if for men it’s similar to the Travis Fimmel example I gave.   I can say a young male CK underwear model is the epitome of hot.   But it’s like looking at art in a museum I will never posses and probably wouldn’t want to, I just want to look.   It’s so far beyond the bounds of reality that there isn’t any real emotional power to it.

       

      1. 30.2.1
        Emily, the original

        Hi GoWiththeFlow,

        I think the alpha fux/beta bux analogy is perfect here. It’s the equivalent of being told men are attracted to younger women but override that when choosing a partner. How about women who hook up with alpha men? The alphas hang in their subconscious as some kind of sexual ideal but when she goes to find a partner, she marries the nice guy who keeps calling and showing up.

  11. 31
    ScottH

    I’ve found this discussion to be interesting.   Everyone is speaking their truth and many people have different experiences and truths and everyone is insisting that their truth is THE truth.   I can relate to what Buck and YAG are saying.   Navigating dating in mid-life is really really tough and that is demonstrated by all the opinions that show up on this page.   I’d just love to go on and on about my experiences being judged and criticized for not being   a billionaire superman and for having my heart shredded by the commitment phobes I’ve dated and I’d like to recite statistics that show how hard it is to find love in your 50’s and that it just might not happen but we all know these things.    (As an aside, I think Evan should go into the matchmaking business to pair up people who are interested in having a good relationship.   I’d like to fish in a pool of Love U grads.)

    I think the bottom line is that we are driven to satisfy our needs (of finding a loving partner).   That is programmed into us.   That is why we are here and arguing our point.   If we stop looking because we’ve been discouraged, we won’t get what we want.   Maybe we could all try being a little less defensive and a little more constructive.

    Piece out.

    1. 31.1
      Emily, the original

      Peace out, Mr. Scott H. Peace out. Word to the mother.     🙂

    2. 31.2
      GoWith the Flow

      ScottH,

      Since you mentioned LoveU, as a graduate, and an EMK blog reader for 3 years, all I can say is it’s easy to get discouraged and complain about the opposite sex.   What’s hard is looking in the mirror and owning your own part of it, and deciding to do something about it.   I know you worked hard to find your own answers and make your own changes after your divorce.   When the right woman comes along, she will love and appreciate you even more for it.

  12. 32
    Buck25

    All,

    Once upon a time I remember having a few age-group peers (or near it) of both genders on this blog. It seems they’ve virtually all gone away now, and I think it’s time   for me to do the same. For the record, neither Evan nor anyone else here, nor anything said in this thread, had anything to do with this decision. It’s a consequence of something I found out a few weeks back, and the reflection I’ve done since. My conclusion, after much thought, is that it’s time to end my search for a relationship. It seems the only right thing to do, and given that, there’s no reason for me to be here any longer. That the decision came after certain exchanges here is mere coincidence; it would have been the same, either way.

    I believe someone said I was a young asshole, who became an old asshole., but whether you believe it or not, I’m a benevolent asshole, and so,

    Evan, I wish you continued success in your business, and to the rest of you, I leave my sincere hope that you each find whatever it is you seek.

    1. 32.1
      Shaukat

      Take care, Buck. I hope you find some peace of mind.

    2. 32.2
      ScottH

      Buck- for what little it’s worth, whoever thinks a young asshole necessarily turns into an old asshole has a warped worldview (and I know that you know that).    Sorry for them that they think that way.   I’ve enjoyed reading your comments and I’ve learned a thing or two (or three) from you and wish I had the opportunity to know you.   Take care.

    3. 32.3
      Marika

      All the very best, Buck.

      While I disagree with your views on women, no one is one-dimensional, and I’m sure you’re a great  man in many ways.

      I wish you peace, fulfilment & happiness.

    4. 32.4
      KK

      Best wishes, Buck! Take care of yourself!

    5. 32.5
      Yet Another Guy

      @Buck

      You definitely made me re-examine my motivations for dating.

  13. 33
    Kenley

    Chance,

    I sincerely don’t understand why young guys think older women are a rejection buffer.    As a 52 year old who gets connected by guys in their 20’s and 30’s, I never say yes because I know    they just want sex and I don’t find it flattering at all.    Actually, it grosses me out a little.   So, if   other older women are like me, isn’t their rejection rate even higher than it would be with younger women?   Unless by rejection barrier you mean it hurts less to get rejected by an “old hag.”    I am really scratching my head on that one.   So, it would be great if you would elaborate.

    1. 33.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Kenley

      Even if he has to deal with rejection, it is much easier for a young man who is in shape to hookup with an older woman than it is for him to hookup with a woman his own age.   It is kind like what Chance said about fat 18-year-old women being more attractive than 35-year-old women.   While you are not interested in younger men, many older women are flattered when hit on by younger men.   Believe it or not, there is a surprising number of age 40+ women who are looking for sex.   I was astonished at how easy it was to get laid when I re-entered the dating pool.   I was actually taken back by it at first.

      1. 33.1.1
        Yet Another Man

        *taken aback

  14. 34
    Marika

    YAG

    A lot of us are here because we need help making better choices with the opposite sex. I know I have wasted time trying to convince non relationship oriented men to be more relationship oriented. It  doesn’t end well. So rather than women trying to convince you why you should be in a relationship with them, isn’t it better for you to try to find women who want the same thing (I’m not sure what that is, exactly, but presumably you do) as you.

    Unfortunately, the younger women you prefer are unlikely to be in the same boat and want the same things as you. If you choose a woman in her early 40’s who wants marriage, commitment and potentially a family (or step family), you’re likely to keep being disappointed & become disillusioned. You can only control your own choices and behaviour, not theirs.

    I highly recommend Finding the One Online.

    1. 34.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Marika

      I do not generally date women in their early forties.   Five to ten years my junior is my preferred age range.

  15. 35
    Selena

    @YAG

    If you are happy with your freedom what compels you to come to this  internet blog continually?

    You don’t want to be ‘talked out’ of your freedom, so why do you bother?

    As much as you go on about how easy it is to attain the casual situations you seek, if you were actually doing so, you wouldn’t be interested in writing about it. You’d be, you know, happily enjoying your freedom.   😉

    I think you may be like those guys who pop on this blog from time; the dudes’  gonna get  Asian brides because US women are soooo…… They aren’t going to do it. They don’t have the guts. Or the money, or both. They like writing about though. They like writing about it A LOT.

    Those who can, do YAG. Those who can’t…clog up the internet trying to get negative attention from women. Because negative attention is better than none.

     

    1. 35.1
      Yet Another Man

      @Selena

      I have no problem whatsoever meeting women.   Dating sites are considered to be a no-go zone for   separated men.   Most separated men give up out of frustration.   I met over 50 women as a separated man on dating sites.

      By the way, I did not join the party to crash it.   I came here out of curiosity.   I was looking for answers to research I was conducting on social dynamics.   However, what I discovered is that the disconnect between what women want from men and what men want from women is larger than I imagined.   That is when I started to realize that the ride may not be worth the price of admission.   In effect, what I read on this blog made me start to question my reasons for dating because I never see myself seeking what women here are seeking.   If the women that comment on this blog are representative of the general population, then I am done.

  16. 36
    Stacy

    Many of you are missing an important FACT.

    MOST men that I know that are 40 and up DO NOT WANT anymore children. As a result, they prefer women that are older. Additionally, older women are taking care of themselves in droves.

    Women that are older (35 and up in the media)

    Halle Berry
    Jennifer Lopez
    Kim Kardashian
    SOFIA Vergara
    Salma Hayek
    Eva Mendez

    I can go on and on and on. And these are NOT anomalies. I see average older women that are exceptionally more attractive than many women in their 20s still wet behind the ear. So while some of THESE men on this forum cant imagine dating an older woman, trust me, there are many, many men who just look at whether or not the woman is hot despite her age and NOT just for sex. I am not 40 yet but older and personal  witness to this (although I am currently off the market). And like I said earlier, most older men do not want to start over with a family.

    1. 36.1
      Malika

      They might find the younger women attractive and fun  but unless these gals are willingly opting to be childfree, dating them will be an exercise in frustration. And as you state below, I am sure that Ryan Gosling did not start dating Eva Mendez because of buffer rejection.

      A friend of mine is in his 50’s and starting over in the dating market. He said he tried dating the younger women and felt that the life experience gap was too great. When he met someone his own age who he was attracted to and still single, it was a hallelujah moment.

      1. 36.1.1
        Chance

        I don’t know how many times I have to say it, but my comments here have nothing to do with men’s preferences in a relationship partner.

        1. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          I don’t know how many times I have to say it, but my comments here have nothing to do with men’s preferences in a relationship partner.

          You’re basically implying there are two types of women: the ones you are most interested in sexually and the ones you can secure in a partnership. That is the female equivalent of saying there is one type of man you have sex with (and dream about indefinitely) and one type of man you marry. Or as Amy Schumer jokes,: You can’t marry the man you had the best sex with. That guy’s in jail.

        2. Stacy2

          Emily, i really wonder how much truth is there to both of these stereotypes. My guess is much less than we can be lead to believe. I married one of the guys i had “best sex with”. And the other one in the “best sex” category went on to marry someone else 9 years later. Both were normal professional men, not in jail lol.

        3. Emily, the original

          Stacy2,

          Emily, i really wonder how much truth is there to both of these stereotypes.

          My oh my, I hope not. I hope there’s not that much of a dichotomy between who you hook up with and who you marry.

        4. Chance

          Emily,

           

          “You’re basically implying there are two types of women: the ones you are most interested in sexually and the ones you can secure in a partnership.”

           

          Not so much.   That’s binary thinking.   There could be some woman who a guy finds to be the most sexually appealing, and she may want a relationship with him.   However, he isn’t crazy about her personality, intelligence, etc.   That doesn’t mean that he doesn’t find the woman whom he chooses for a partner to be sexually appealing as well.   Rather, he is choosing her because she possesses traits that the other woman does not possess (even if the other woman may be more sexually appealing).

           

          What I’m witnessing here is some pretty interesting stuff, indeed.   I’m essentially saying that many men choose to be with a particular woman despite the fact that she may not be the most sexually appealing woman who has ever wanted to be in a relationship with him.   This should be uplifting for women because it shows that these men value women for who they are beyond their physical appearance.   Instead, everyone is offended that a man might not find his wife/girlfriend to be the sexiest woman he’s ever been with.

        5. Shaukat

          @Emily,

          The categories aren’t always so rigid, but yes, of course there are women who men are interested in sexually who they wouldn’t enter into a relationship with. I seriously doubt that’s news to you at this point:)

        6. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          Instead, everyone is offended that a man might not find his wife/girlfriend to be the sexiest woman he’s ever been with.

          That’s binary thinking on your part. No female poster has written that that her man has to think of her as Helen of Troy. Read Evan’s response to you. It sums up why you’ve gotten so many responses to your comments, but something tells me you were very well aware that would happen. Write something incendiary, stand back and profess ignorance. Most women want to feel their man digs them both as a woman and as a person. Not that he’s made some big sacrifice and finds her only reasonably appealing.

        7. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          but yes, of course there are women who men are interested in sexually who they wouldn’t enter into a relationship with.

          I must be getting old. I just can’t get interested in a sex-only situation anymore. In my younger years, maybe, but now if I don’t really like the guy, the sex doesn’t make up for our lack of rapport as people. In fact, the sex turns out to be not that great.

        8. Emily, the original

          “No female poster has written that that her man has to think of her as Helen of Troy.”

          For this particular post it is. I’m not referring to “I think I hot … ” post.

        9. Evan Marc Katz

          A LOT of women defended her in the comments. More than a majority.

        10. KK

          “Write something incendiary, stand back and profess ignorance”.

          He does that all the time, Emily. Keyboard warrior, that he is. 😂

        11. Emily, the original

          KK,

          He does that all the time, Emily. Keyboard warrior, that he is

          We have some great male posters on here (Jeremy, Karl R — where are you?) but several who like to light a fire, stand back and let it burn. It’s exhausting. What’s funny is that they keep announcing they are going away … only to return again

        12. Emily, the original

          A LOT of women defended her in the comments. More than a majority.

          True, but this is a different post and I don’t think anyone feels like opening that can of worms again.

        13. Chance

          Emily, I haven’t said anything that is particularly incendiary.   It’s how you choose to interpret it.   Most of the irritated comments from women on here (and now, Evan, as well) have been in response to things that I haven’t said or implied.

        14. Evan Marc Katz

          If many people are inferring something, perhaps you are implying it.

        15. Chance

          It’s like four women who are inferring anything, over and over again.   The same four women who have a long, documented history of reading between the lines when it comes to comments that are anything less than exactly what they want to hear.

        16. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          It’s like four women who are inferring anything, over and over again.   The same four women who have a long, documented history of reading between the lines when it comes to comments that are anything less than exactly what they want to hear.

          Right. It’s not you. It’s everybody else.

        17. KK

          Chance,

          “The same four women who have a long, documented history of reading between the lines when it comes to comments that are anything less than exactly what they want to hear”.

          This statement is classic projection. It is you who cannot accept when you are wrong or acknowledge when anyone else has a valid point.

          On different posts, Tom10, Buck25, KarlR, and Evan have at one time or another agreed with a certain argument I’ve made and you continued to argue, question my intelligence, and berate me. On this particular post, when Evan agreed with GWTF by saying, “Touché!”, you argued against it.

        18. KK

          Emily,

          “We have some great male posters on here (Jeremy, Karl R”

          Yes! They are appreciated here and fun to engage with!

          “but several who like to light a fire, stand back and let it burn”.

          Wonder if they realize how transparent they are? Lol.

          “What’s funny is that they keep announcing they are going away … only to return again”.

          Pretty darn weird, if you ask me.

           

           

        19. Emily, the original

          KK,

          “What’s funny is that they keep announcing they are going away … only to return again”.

          Pretty darn weird, if you ask me.

          It’s like when the MGTOW participants announce they have given up on dating. Are we supposed to beg them not to go? “No! You have so much to contribute to the female community!”

        20. KK

          “It’s like when the MGTOW participants announce they have given up on dating. Are we supposed to beg them not to go? “No! You have so much to contribute to the female community!”

          I know, Emily. It’s moronic. Then they have the nerve to tell older women to get a bunch of cats and die alone. But you know what? I’ve known a few of those older ladies. Perfectly good women. Just done with men. Didn’t run men down. Didn’t start any hate groups. Just did their own thing. To me, that’s “going your own way”. Maybe they could take some pointers from some of those old cat ladies and really… you know… GO! 😊

        21. GoWiththeFlow

          KK & Emily,

          When I was going through the multi-year adoption process with my younger two kids I met and talked with many single women who were going through the process as well or contemplating doing so.   Virtually all of them had pulled out of the dating market with no plans to return.   You can debate whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.   But one thing for sure, they were done.   No hovering over the threshold with their handle on the door knob saying, “Oh guys!   I’m leaving now!   Sure there aren’t some large scale changes y’all want to make as a group to change this?   Because I’m not the only one, women are dropping out in droves!   You’ll be sorry when we’re gone!”

        22. Emily, the original

          KK and GWTF,

          Here’s one thing I don’t get: I work with a guy, early 60s, had been divorced twice, had been living with and taking care of his dad for years. After talking with him, I thought he had no interest in another relationship. He was happy doing his own thing and spending time with his family and kids. But then his dad passed away and he was married within a year. I was shocked. Is it so much the person or the timing?

           

        23. Shaukat

          Chance, having read your posts on this subject I agree that you haven’t at all suggested that older women are useless or that women lose their value as they age-in fact, you were arguing the opposite, that younger women have sex appeal but that older women have much more  to offer in terms of experience, wisdom, maturity etc.

          The problem is that when you frame your hypotheticals you tend to use charged language (i.e, “expiration date;” “insecure”). That can sometimes be an effective strategy when trying to get your point across, but on some issues (like this one) it generates more heat than light. I think most people (women and men) understand that, on average, their looks and sex appeal deteriorate as they age, but due to societal factors, women in general have their sense of worth and ego bound up with their physical appearance, and so don’t want to be constantly reminded of this reality. This also explains why Evan received so much push back on the thread where the OP compared herself to a celebrity. It’s also why I think talking too much about this can be counter productive.

        24. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          that younger women have sex appeal but that older women have much more  to offer in terms of experience, wisdom, maturity etc.

          How would you feel if a woman said to you,”Gosh, your younger brother is definitely hotter than you, but don’t worry. You have so much more character and depth.” ? Can you not see how the wording of that would be like a cheese grater on the back of your neck?

      2. 36.1.2
        KK

        Malika,

        “A friend of mine is in his 50’s and starting over in the dating market. He said he tried dating the younger women and felt that the life experience gap was too great. When he met someone his own age who he was attracted to and still single, it was a hallelujah moment”.

        Yes. Normal, emotionally healthy men seek women within an appropriate age range when looking for a relationship.

        1. Chance

          “Yes. Normal, emotionally healthy men seek women within an appropriate age range when looking for a relationship.”

           

          This is a classic shaming tactic that is used by insecure women who fear that they are past their expiration date.   If a woman is capable of offering a man anything other than her looks, she has nothing to worry about.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          You contradict yourself, Chance.

          You say “she has nothing to worry about” if she’s secure and brings something to the table. Yet most of your emails invoke a constant refrain of the unworthiness of women: “older women are useless,” “offers nothing but looks” and “has an expiration date.”

          Either older women have worth or they don’t. You don’t get to say women are, on the whole, worthless, and, at the same time, say that the good ones have nothing to worry about.

          My clients are generally 35-55. I can assure you they are not worthless. Every note you write to the contrary illustrates just how very out of step you are with my mission.

        3. KK

          Chance,

          You seem to have a very interesting take on “shaming tactics”. You have stated that younger men who chase cougars are insecure. You have stated that men should not court women who are past childbearing age. By your own definition, these would also be considered “shaming tactics”.

          My statement comes from my own observations; which is what most of us would call an opinion based on their own anecdotal evidence. But what I stated would be a “fact” according to the definition you used to define your own anecdotal evidence regarding younger men and cougars.

          But no, wise one, I am neither insecure nor do I fear I have expired despite YOUR ignorance. Nice try, though.

        4. Chance

          “Either older women have worth or they don’t. You don’t get to say women are, on the whole, worthless, and, at the same time, say that the good ones have nothing to worry about.”

           

          I’m sorry, Evan, but it appears that you have me confused with someone else.   I have, on this thread, been making the point – the entire time – that women have value for things other than their looks.   The women here just can’t get past the idea that they may not be as attractive as some 20-something who has nothing else to offer.   I know that I’m not as attractive as I was when I was in my 20s.   So what?

           

          “Either older women have worth or they don’t. You don’t get to say women are, on the whole, worthless, and, at the same time, say that the good ones have nothing to worry about.”

           

          No one said women are, on the whole, worthless.   At least, I didn’t.   I’ve never said older women are useless…. that is your quote – not mine.   Also, I never said women have an expiration date.   Rather, when women say the things that KK is saying above, it’s a shaming tactic for women who fear they have an expiration date.   I’m not saying that they actually have one.

           

          ‘My clients are generally 35-55. I can assure you they are not worthless. Every note you write to the contrary illustrates just how very out of step you are with my mission.”

           

          Preaching to the choir, Evan, which makes your comment so strange.   If you want to use me to grandstand in front of your clients, have at it if you think it will make you some money.   It’s your blog.   However, I can assure you that I did not say, or imply, that older women are worthless.

    2. 36.2
      DinaStrange

      Let’s not put the Trashian in the bunch. That creature is not a woman long time ago.

  17. 37
    Stacy

    Oh, and one more thing,

    Ryan Gosling is 36 and Eva is 42.

    And Ryan Gosling can probably get ANY woman he wants.

    1. 37.1
      Malika

      I will reiterate my favourite celebrity example of male celebrities willing to date the oldies:

      Daniel Craig (49)  married quite happily to OMGsoooold Rachel Weisz (48). Who is  nine years older than the girlfriend that preceded her. Because we all know that James Bond needs to  ensure rejection buffer and cannot get a sexual partner otherwise.

      My second favourite celebrity example and a big age gap: The French president and his wife. Because he definitely could not get anyone else, right?

      I’m all for dating whomsoever you want. My father was 18 years older than my mother and their marriage was durable and fun. So it works both ways. Demonizing the age group above or below you because it doesn’t meet the societal standards is just one of the many things that hold us back when we look for a partner we can have a happy relationship with.

      1. 37.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        My favorite story is my own. I broke up with a 25-year-old to marry a 38-year-old who was more mature, wise, and sexy. Doesn’t mean I’m not attracted to 25-year-olds in a magazine, but there are no shortage of women in their 40’s (I’m 44) that I find attractive.

        1. KK

          Gosh Evan,

          That’s so hypergamous! (J/K!)

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          Totally!

          Every day, I think of all the 25-year-old women I’ve yet to sleep with and how fulfilling it would be to throw away my happy marriage due to my biological imperatives. After all, my wife is almost 48!

  18. 38
    Stacy

    Correction: Eva is 43.

  19. 39
    Cathryn

    OMG, No.   Please don’t tell me you see this guy once a month, and actually believe he’s your boyfriend or ever will be. Um, no.

    I have a friend who always ends up in these kinds of relationships, six years with a guy she sees once a month or so.   It inevitably always ends up that the guy is actually married, has a girlfriend, and six other women he’s dating all at once.   Can I hear you say STDs?

    How can she possibly not know she it NOT the only one.

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