How Long Should You Stay With A Boyfriend Who Does Not Believe In Marriage?

How Long Should You Stay With A Boyfriend Who Does Not Believe In Marriage?
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Dear Evan,

First of all, I love your advice. In fact, it’s because of your advice that I’m in my first serious, long-term relationship. (We’ve been together a year and a half and live together.) Now, however, I’m confused about the state of my relationship.

See, ever since we started dating – even before we started dating and knew each other through friends – I knew this guy didn’t believe in marriage.

I know you’re going to say: “Why didn’t you pay attention to the negatives?” I can honestly say I didn’t realize at that point that it mattered to me. I’m fairly young (late 20s) and it is just beginning to dawn on me that I’d like to get married. Now I realize how much I do want to get married to the person I love. He still doesn’t believe in it. He believes in long-term commitment and family, but not marriage (his family history is pretty rocky). I said to him that I don’t want to wait, and if I weren’t engaged after a couple years together I would think of moving on.

This really hurts him – to him, BECAUSE I want to marry him and wouldn’t just want a relationship, it means I love him less. He’s offered the following compromise: in a few years, when we decide to have kids, then we can get married. I’m scared, though. Is it stupid to wait that long? And is it a bad idea to marry someone who is basically like “fine, fine, we can get married.” I know he loves me and is committed to me, but I wonder how healthy that is.

Now I feel that this big difference in values is constantly hanging over me, and is making me feel negatively about things.

For a point of reference: our relationship is pretty good. We rarely argue (I would say we’ve had about 3 large arguments in our relationship, and maybe a smaller disagreement every couple of weeks.) We both want kids. We both have our irritating habits but we accept them. —Katie

Dear Katie,

Thanks for your kind words. I’m thrilled that you found a serious, long-term relationship using my advice, and I’m candidly delighted that you even quoted the advice you ignored about “ignoring the positives and believing the negatives”.

It would be easy for me to tell you to run from him. But I’m not so positive that you would be closer to achieving your goal that way.

Except now the chickens are coming home to roost. Or something like that.

Listen, I can’t tell you anything about your relationship that you don’t already know.

I think it’s unfortunate that he has such a distorted view of marriage that he’s given up on it as an institution.

I think it’s great that you’re trying to understand where he’s coming from — how it hurts him that he feels that HE’S not enough without a ring on your finger.

I think it’s telling that he attempted to come up with a mutually agreeable compromise, especially since it’s one where, apparently, you get exactly what you’ve always wanted: a husband, a ring, and a baby

So you’re faced with the timeless dilemma that all women face — should I stay or should I go? This very question was the topic of an hour long FOCUS Coaching call so believe me, I’ve got a lot more to say about it than I can compress into a single blog post.

It would be easy for me to tell you to run from him. I’m sure some of the other readers will say just that. But I’m not so positive that you would be closer to achieving your goal that way. And what we’re always trying to figure out here is effective vs. ineffective — what’s the best way for Katie to achieve her dream of marriage and kids with a man she loves?

So here’s the reason I think you might want to stay and make things work:

As Dale Carnegie pointed out many years ago, people don’t want to be sold; people want to choose.

You meet a pushy car salesman who wants to give you a great deal and won’t let you off the lot until you buy…and you’re not gonna buy from him.

That same car salesman takes the time to ask you what you’re looking for in a car: speed, price, mileage, safety…and you WILL buy from him, because you’re getting to choose on your terms, without any pressure.

The way you have the greatest leverage over your man is if he can’t imagine his life without you.

This is what women routinely forget when they’re angling for marriage. The more you pressure him to know that he wants to spend every day of the rest of his life with you and give you half of his income if he’s wrong, the less he’s going to want to do it.

So your arbitrary timelines: six months, nine months, one year, a year and a half… they don’t mean anything to your boyfriend. They’re arbitrary ticking clocks that you’ve created to justify your insecurity about investing time in one man. If you push for marriage too soon, before he’s ready, you will not get married to him. The woman who does get married to him will be the one who is patient enough to let him choose her.

The way you have the greatest leverage over your man is if he can’t imagine his life without you. One and a half years into knowing my wife, I could easily imagine life without her. Three years in, and I would be a hopeless, lonely, drooling idiot without her.

Your age, Katie, is a considerable factor. If you invest two or three more happy years in your boyfriend and decide to have kids at age 32, then you will likely get everything you want.

If, for some reason, your live-in boyfriend of 4  ½ years — a man who is virtually a common law husband — a man who says he loves you and wants to be a father someday — if, for some reason, he balks at marriage before kids, THEN you dump him.

However, unless your boyfriend is a liar, such behavior would be entirely illogical and inexplicable. And since he’s your boyfriend, I’m not counting on him being a liar.

I think he’s a good man who loves you, wants to be a dad, but wants to make sure he’s not making a huge mistake like so many others he knows.

Enjoy your relationship, become indispensable to him, and he will voluntarily want to lock you in for life when you’re both ready to have kids.

Remember, men act in their own self-interests and it’s in his self-interest to keep the woman he loves the most.

If I’m wrong, you would still be 32 and have your prime dating years ahead of you.

This woman and this woman gave their relationships 2-3 years to fully cement and ended up getting the marriage they always desired. It just took a little more patience.

If you think he’s “the one,” then I think it’s worth the risk. Good luck.

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Comments:

  1. 121
    Angela

    I said yes when my now husband “asked me to marry him”. Three years later!! It was the biggest mistake I’ve ever made, and it has made me into a pathetic woman who I hate!!

    I never so much as mentioned the word marriage, because I know that as soon as you utter to word from your mouth it’s over, ruined, you will never know if he ever wanted to marry you, or would have asked. I was shocked when he didn’t ask on our one-year anniversary, and I said I’d give it one more year. Throughout that year I told him all the time that something was wrong, and something was missing, and left several times. He still didn’t ask.

    I left again, we broke up for months. Finally, he asked me if I wanted to get married, casually, and I looked at him like he was an idiot. He said he always thought I would say no, and that I was always leaving, which is why he didn’t ask. But I was leaving because he didn’t ask.

    Then he pretended to propose in an elaborate, on one knee thing, with a ring, I said yes and we were married, but I knew it was a joke. I had to rush to plan a wedding, and we did it privately and invited no one because it’s ridiculous to invite people if you have to wait that long. It was so hard to get excited about what should have been one of the happiest days of my life. Now we’ve been married seven months and I want nothing more than to leave. I feel so stupid – everybody knows we were together that long, everybody knows that he never asked for that long. I feel like a failed myself and didn’t love myself enough to want more.

    Women – if a man waits more than two years tops, leave him. Don’t tell him why you’re leaving just leave. You will know for the rest of your life that he didn’t want to marry you. And never, ever, stoop so low as to even say the word marriage to him, or ask if it’s something he is interested in. It is not a woman’s place, it is a man’s.

    Take it from me – if it takes three years to get married, you should not be getting married.

    1. 121.1
      starthrower68

      I am curious why you accepted his proposal?

    2. 121.2
      Clare

      Wow, Angela.

      I know of two separate couples where the man took 9 years and 10 years respectively to propose, and they are two of the happiest couples I have ever seen.

      There is nothing humiliating about a man taking 3 years to propose… perhaps it didn’t work for you, and it was your prerogative to leave. But I think the fact that you didn’t feel good about it when he finally did propose says more about your relationship than the fact that he took 3 years.

      There is so much more I can say here, but I feel exhausted just thinking about it. And I really, really feel for you that you finally got what you said you wanted and all you can feel is humiliation, sadness and disappointment. May I suggest that deep personal work would benefit you a great deal.

      1. 121.2.1
        Angela

        I have confessed to my husband how this made and makes me feel and he is deeply sorry. I want more for our children. He suggested we get married within six weeks of meeting and I was hesitant so he, in turn, was hesitant. He says he always wanted to ask but was afraid if leave him, especially when I seemed dissatisfied. I was very wild when we met and had broken many hearts, including that of the man I left for him. We will have to work through this but it will always taint how I feel about our relationship and be a source if sadness to me. Luckily, I have some time to figure out what I’ll tell our children. Still I strongly believe that if it takes 3 years to get married, you shouldn’t be getting married.

        1. marymary

          You probably need to let this one go rather than letting one year of extra waiting for a proposal taint a marriage of 50 years.
          And it seems your husband never got the memo that three years was your deadline.

        2. Clare

          Agreed, marymary. I cannot understand for the life of me why Angela is still eaten up and bitter and twisted because her husband took 3 years to propose.

        3. Clare

          Also, newsflash Angela: It is healthy to be hesitant about getting married within 6 weeks of meeting each other.

        4. starthrower68

          I personally don’t think 3 years is unreasonable. I will not say you are bitter because I can’t make that call. I would say, however that your husband is deeply sorry which should be enough reason to let it go. I am also not sure it will make a bean’s worth of difference to the kids as long as their parents are together.

      2. 121.2.2
        Evan Marc Katz

        “I know of two separate couples where the man took 9 years and 10 years respectively to propose, and they are two of the happiest couples I have ever seen.”

        And yet this is a terrible bet and one of the greatest predictors of divorce there are. Your two separate couples are EXCEPTIONS. Far more healthy couples get married within 3 years or so… In general, if a guy doesn’t propose in that time, it’s because he doesn’t want to get married.

    3. 121.3
      SparklingEmerald

      Angela – I have had a few relationships go off the rails from what I call “Pre-mature proposal”.   In 2 cases, I got a proposal in what I thought was way to early in the relationship, but I didn’t say “no”, I just didn’t say “yes”.   I just communicated that I was happy the relationship was progressing in that direction, and I’m very happy to be asked, and that we should continue as a couple, and talk about this again in the near future.   In both cases, when I said I was ready to talk about the original proposal, one said he had changed his mind, the other denied ever bringing it up.

      So when my my ex-husband popped the question at the 6 month mark, I was THRILLED, but I was 50/50 on the fence about saying a “hard yes”.   (I could see the proposal coming, he was dropping hints)   I really had mixed feelings about becoming “officially engaged”.   I did think it was a tad too soon, but because of my past experiences with delaying an answer on too early proposals, I decided to say yes to avoid the problems I had previously.   I thought about going for a long engagement, but he wanted to get married soon AND, I was in my early thirties, we wanted a family, so between my past experiences with not saying “yes” the first time I was asked, and my ticking biological time clock I said “yes” to the engagement, and “yes” to a short engagement period.

      I can’t call it the worst mistake of my life, because we WERE very happy for 10 years (married for 23) and we have one son who is AWESOME, and we both continue to have a good relationship with him.

      I wish I had the answer to how to handle a “pre-mature” proposal, but really I don’t.   However, if your ex brought it up 6 weeks into the relationship, and you “hesitated”, you were actually in the clear to bring it up at a more reasonable time, since HE already brought it up first.   I would say that breaking up with a man who proposed early in the relationship and you rejected him, and telling him that “something is missing” does not inspire a second proposal.

      You also said ” And never, ever, stoop so low as to even say the word marriage to him, or ask if it’s something he is interested in. It is not a woman’s place, it is a man’s.”   I agree, the man should bring it up FIRST, but once he has brought it up, him being “first” doesn’t expire.   Once he has brought it up, you are free to re-visit the subject, as he has already opened the door on that discussion.   And if he gets on one knee and gives you a ring, don’t regard that as a “fake proposal”.

      As I said, I really don’t know if or how to handle a “pre-mature” proposal if marriage is what you want, and you really think he could be the one, but it’s too soon to officially say yes.   Who knows, maybe that where the concept of “pre-engagement” rings came from.

      I hope you can let this go and build a happy marriage with your husband.

      Good luck to you.

  2. 122
    Angela

    Because I love him and always wanted him to ask. I thought I could get over it, but I just associate him with sadness and disappointment.

  3. 123
    Aislen

    ‘The woman who does get married to him will be the one who is patient enough to let him choose her.’
    Choose her? What the…? So wait…what…she has to wait to be ‘chosen’???
    To hell with that. She’s already chosen him by the sounds of it. He’s happy to stay with her, have a family with her but not to ‘choose’ to give her the legal security?
    A history of bad family marriages isn’t a good enough reason (my parents haven’t seen each other since i was 6 months old and I still value it) marriage/legal partnership is still an important part of a relationship. If it’s important to one it should be important to both. Some growing up needs to be done on his part I feel.

    Sorry. Rant over. x

    1. 123.1
      starthrower68

      A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

  4. 124
    Lorraine

    women are hard wired to want to marry.. to say she just needs to suck it up and face that facts, its like saying to a man,” You can live with me as long as you never look at boobs again or butts”
    That is not going to happen unless the guy is GAY.. so lets face it IF you cant get a proposal LEAVE. ASAP…ITs going to drive you nuts. THIS is where I am right now,, been living with a great guy for 10 years and no proposal… my family think I have gone to the dogs for putting up with this.
    I am not saying family opinion is paramount.. I am just saying MARRIAGE is important to making me feel like a whole woman.. sorry if that offends.

    1. 124.1
      Karmic Equation

      No woman is “hard wired” to want marriage. We’ve been “enculturated” to want marriage and to believe we’re not “whole women” without marriage. HOGWASH!

      You’re a complete woman with or without marriage. You might believe you would be HAPPIER married or more SATISFIED if married. But you’re a “whole” woman (unless hermaphroditic) whether or not you’re married.

      Don’t buy in to societal pressure.

      If want to get married, find a guy who’ll marry you. But please don’t denigrate yourself for not being married. If anything, denigrate yourself making such a poor choice of partner…one who doesn’t have the same values about marriage that you do.

  5. 125
    trish

    I’m not in the same position I don’t really want marriage myself but hurt that my partner just never considered I might be the one. He’s been married but for all the wrong reasons…babies making his ex wife happy …but now he hates marriage because he never loved her…it is not a testimony of love I assure you. She still holds on to him and has his name and it’s constantly smeared in my face. Now what I am saying don’t force him…it could ruin a lot of lives in the end. I love my partner but his past his ex wife is smoothering and needy and that may rob him of a woman that loves him for him. I fell for a man that thought he was doing the right thing…now he lives with the consequences for as long as he lives….she got kids too.

    1. 125.1
      twinkle

      Trish, I sympathise with u, but I have to say, it’s like u absolve him of responsibility and blame everything on the other woman. That’s just his side of the story, and personally I don’t blindly trust when someone acts like everything is someone else’s fault, those pple may just have victimist’s mentality.

      I myself am dating someone for about 6 mths who seems a bit wary about marriage because he’s seen a lot of his friends get screwed over in divorces, but he and I both know that everyone has to take responsibility for our own decisions. He doesn’t expect me to date him for 5 years without a proposal just because he can’t make up his mind or because he’s scared. If a man wants u to be his wife, he will propose, end of story, and u can’t blame his non-proposing on his ex-wife.

      Lastly, if u’re not happy in the situation, pls leave with the faith that u will be happier and in a situation that makes u happier. Life is too short for so much negativity.

  6. 126
    noodles

    First let me say that I have really enjoyed reading all the comments.   I found this blog (undated unfortunately so I do not know how old it is) when searching for a similar topic.   I am 35, have been in my relationship for 5+ years.   I consider it a lovely relationship, I have deep respect and admiration for my boyfriend. I also started a successful small business with him (documentary film production).   About 3 years ago I realized I wanted to marry him.   For two years I made it known slowly over the course of a few conversations here and there.   After 4 years the visa he had to live here in the states was going to expire and I had mentioned in the past that it would make me feel very badly if he waited until right before the visa expired to propose.   Well he did, only he didn’t propose because with two months left I spoke up, in tears.   

    What shocked me was how much it hurt me.   I had been willing to wait it out and hoped that by being a great, loving, true partner that he would “come around”.   But the whole time it was sending me a message about love (or lack thereof in someway).   We decided to refile for his work visa and go to counselling.   I really was able to weigh all of the things both Katie and Evan and other wise commentators have expressed here. The big problem was that for all my intelligent reasoning on what was important to me and how to actually achieve my goals, the thing that remained was that it caused a deep pain inside me which I could not shake.   

    1 year later, we are still together but it feels like its falling apart.   I love my boyfriend, we still get along fantastically and support each other in life.   But in addition now I am plagued by fear that 35 is too old to start over (and maybe its not too late EMK, but the fear is REAL). I am plagued by fear that my financial security is wrapped together (not because I’m dependent but because we literally have the same source of income and it may not be able to be done if we aren’t together).   And most importantly I feel crappy every day when I look in the mirror.   The very rational, lawyerly, brain in me used to win most days in evaluating what was important to me, but the very little girl needs-to-be-loved part of me is winning more and more these days.   

  7. 127
    dd

    I waited 18 years, no kids and now I am 50. I wasted my time. I am not angry anymore because It was my fault too. I really look forward to finding a great guy now , but I won’t have kids and I cannot be around them as its too many reminders if all the time I wasted loving a man to whom I was an option. Good luck waiting, but if I had to make the same choice again with what I knew now, I would leave him.

  8. 128
    Tabitha Maxwell

    Don’t do it!

    Don’t stay with him! Don’t take second best to what you are looking for!

    I have been with a guy for nine years….nine! In the beginning he said he would get married when it felt ‘right’, then he said when he could afford a ring, then he brought me a ring and took it back to the store and told me he couldn’t do it…Then he brought me a ring for $400…yes thats right $400 and told me it was the biggest ball ache of his life….Then he told me he would get married when we had kids, then he would get married after we buy a house….Then after we had enough money….Then after he went to his sisters wedding in UK.

    My pint, the carrot was forever dangled, and in the end, nothing has changed, I am still sitting here 9 years in and not married. It makes me sick now to think of even marrying him, my resentment toward the man is HUGE. He told me that he only said it because he didn’t want me to leave him, he felt I gave him an ultimatum when I said if we weren’t going to ever marry I felt it best to move on and find a relationship I would be happy with….It wasn’t an ultimatum I simply just knew I would resent him in the end and it wouldn’t work out anyway, and now that is EXACTLY where I am, no marriage, and a lot of resentment.

    Don’t do it, trust your instincts, if you believe in marriage, and he doesn’t that is the same as wanting children when the other doesn’t, it takes a very strong love to get through that, as basically you are different people, with difference wants and need’s and there are plenty of people in the world with the same wants and need’s as you.

    Don’t settle.

  9. 129
    M

    We met on an Internet dating site and spoke on and off for a few years. I really found a connection with him and wanted to meet him in person to see if there was an attraction. There was and we became inseperable after 3 years. I moved to his rural community because he had a good job and it would be easier for me to find one because of my education and work experience. Before we got together he was just starting to get back on his feet. He lost all of his possessions and his beloved pets in his divorce a few years earlier and filed for bankrupcy. When we found a place it was furnished with what I already had or what I purchased. He buys tools and pays for auto repairs, or boy toys. If we ever split he could fit everything he owns in his small car, with the exception of his horses and small horse trailer. Recently I realized that I have made great compromises, I moved across country away from my children, grandchildren and other family members and friends. I lIke where we live and the life we have built together, but if we were to ever split I would likely not have the financial or phisical resources to either move or live on my own here. I love him very much and I believe he loves me but he does not want to get married again. He claims he made this decision when he was seven years old and didn’t want to be married the first time as he believes marriage ruins the relationship. But I feel vulnerable, I also know he has communicated with other women on line, but claims it’s not inappropriate. Recently he angrily agreed to marriage but I don’t want to deal with the inevitable resentment that would come with it. I just don’t know what to do, we started couples therapy but we quit because he said he felt pressured. I feel like I am in a no win situation. Aside from my insecurities we do have a loving, caring relationship; we rarely argue and genuinely enjoy being together. I just feel sad and discounted based on the decision of a seven year old…

    1. 129.1
      Karmic Equation

      M,

       

      He doesn’t want to marry period or he doesn’t want to marry you. It doesn’t matter if he decided this yesterday or when he was 7.

       

      If marriage is THAT important to you, then you need to break up with him and find a man that WILL marry you.

       

      Or you need to accept that what you have now is all you’re going to get if you stay with him…and give up the resentment and drama.

       

      Getting him to change his mind and be happy about it is not one of your options.

       

      If I were you, I’d dump him.

       

      You can’t rewrite history, but you shouldn’t ever have moved so far away from your family without an engagement ring.

       

      You can’t unring the bell. All you can do is trudge forward.

       

      Best of luck to you.

  10. 130
    judy

    I think that if he doesn’t believe in marriage, she should look somewhere else.   He has been honest about it and chances are, if he loses you, he’ll come running back anyway.

    It’s up to the woman to decide if she really wants a man who cannot meet her half way with her desires, if marriage is what she wants.

    Personally, I would explain that it is important to me that my needs are met too, and if he disregards that, you know that he is just completely selfish.

  11. 131
    Miss Nene

    Don’t agree with that. Too much advice is geared towards how WOMEN need to change THEIR behavior, when it is the man, ultimately, that needs to change.

    Women have every right to put a timeline on a marriage proposal. Whether or not he likes it or ignores it doesn’t matter. You have that right.   Also, we don’t have to ‘prove’ to a man that he can’t make it without us. You forget that there are men who are quite content the way things are. They are getting what they want.. you in their life.. without having to man up and make a marriage commitment. It is a fact that it takes a man, not a boy, to make a marriage commitment. It is one of the things that separates the boys from the men.

    You could be the sweetest, kindest, most physically beautiful woman, and some men will not marry you. It is all about them, not you. Rather than working on how   women need to make themselves indispensable to men so that someone will marry them, perhaps it is more practical for women to concentrate on making their OWN money, buying their OWN house, and finding someone worthy of them.

  12. 132
    Miss Nene

    Here is perhaps the hardest thing of all for women to understand and accept : Despite all the true stories, true stories that became films, movies, songs, and books, women CANNOT change a man! A man changes by his own CHOICE!   There is no missing ingredient that you need to have to get a man to change his behavior. It isn’t about being more supportive, kinder, nicer, gentler, or quieter. Or prettier. Or thinner.

    The famous men who touted that ‘she changed me’ or “After I met her,   she saved me”, is not true. That woman was an INFLUENCE on you. She helped you but, ultimately the behavioral change came from within you.

  13. 133
    Anonymous

    You can’t only think of his feelings ,, if marriage is what you desire then you shouldn’t settle for less just because you love him.. If a man can get wifely benefits while just being a boyfriend then he has no need to marry, and you don’t want to end up being the woman that stays for four plus years and gets nothing at the end, then he finds a new relationship and proposes within a year,

  14. 134
    Julie

    @EMK 30.1, Dan makes a strong point.   I would have expected a more convincing argument than a curt dismissal of someone you are not able to answer.   It ends up making you come across as a highschool fellow who hasn’t grown up to expand his world view. People make mistakes and admitting to them or opening oneself to different points of views is a healthy mature way to debate.   If someone is coming to you for advice, it’s all the more important that you give them possible alternatives so that they can make a sound, informed decision.   There’s no way you or any other person can give 100% accurate replies by a blogpost(even if this is your JOB). It’s okay to acknowledge that.   A relationship is made of two people, without knowing both viewpoints/motivations, one cannot make projections about someone who has not even communicated with you.   OP would get better results by going to a well-trained counselor so that both people can have a healthy dialogue, express their points of views fully and communicate face-to-face the sticky points for both of them. She will know where she stands.

  15. 135
    Marie

    Pretty late in this game.   It’s hard when men and women ARE different. I’m divorced, I have a child and I’ve been with my boyfriend for 5 years, who said he knew the moment he married that he shouldn’t have done it, knew he would never marry.   Logically every point he makes – makes logical sense but I’m a woman a I feel those emotions and do not try to define the logic of them.   He’s always said I have to accept that if I want to be with him.   You have to respect someone’s wishes and decisions.   I admire him and I respect him.   I believe he’s the most amazing man I’ve ever known.   But my heart feels and it does hurt.   Women will take it as a rejection of their love and devotion to not have him want to marry you and give you the joy of having the last name of the one you love.   It would be a honour for me to have his last name. I’d be proud to be his wife. My son would have a home where mom and (step) dad are together as a family.   We will always live separately as he built a micro home made for one and does not plan to add to it.   He does go out of his way to show he loves me.   But at the end of the night when you want to go to sleep next to the one you love with all your heart and wake up next to him and all you get is that loneliness and distance instead it hurts deeply as we feel deeply.   I can’t imagine life without him, I truly honestly can’t, but there is always that constant hole and emptiness that you want to fill to complete who you are together.   My heart breaks to remain with someone who doesn’t see the value of what I can bring to a marriage to be able to take that chance. Someone who ultimately has his best interest.   I’m a mom, putting the needs of my son carries into my relationship.   It’s so natural to take care of him.   My heart would break without him and my heart breaks with him.   I believe in marriage.   I believe in completely sharing your life, to wake up every holiday together as a family.   He’s truly a great man that I can speak and have done so about how I admire him for so many things that I can list page after page.   He’s a good man with a good heart and I love him plsin and simple.   But it hurts to not have my belief in marriage acknowledged.   Year after year I get electronic gifts that I have been so appreciative of but knowing I’ll never be that woman who gets anniversary flowers or a keepsake piece of jewelry that would outlast a TV.   I still don’t know if I can sacrifice what I want in my life and living separately to give him what he needs and expects of a relationship.   Women feel, men think. There’s as much to support the woman’s view and much to support the mans view but bottom line it’s the ‘feeling’ of rejection to never be good enough or great enough for him to bend,   and face the fact that we want that perfect romantic movie moment of being asked to marry him. It’s like having to give up that happy ever after dream and settle for his happiness and needs above your own.    There is no right answer in this discussion. I feel for all of you who want to feel the ultimate commitment of happy ever after and know you love him more than your own dreams that will never come true without even being met halfway.   It’s a painful life for the sake of love.    I wish you all well in any decisions you make.

  16. 136
    Matilda

    Evan, just wanted to tell you I’m facing something similar to this. I googled and thought when I first read this,artucle, you’d be telling her to dump him immediately.

     

    Instead you gave me, a middle-aged woman something to think about.

     

    Right now, due to some crazy financial commitment, my SO doesn’t want to marry. But he wants me in his life, the rest of his life. He spoils me rotten and is a very good man.

     

    I in turn am afraid of marriage but I fear a man scared to have ties financially doesn’t love me the way he claims.

     

    We’ve been together 6 months. Thank you for writing this I’m still deciding   what to do. But maybe a few years isn’t such a bad idea.

  17. 137
    DissafectedWithDating

    Reading the comments from women it has once again been proven that women do not view men as the end goal in itself, but they view us rather as tools to achieve something – whether is to get married, to get children, buy a house, etc. – this, basically, seems to me that is their true end goal and they are using intimacy and sex to get that. Meanwhile  we, men, very often come view women as the end goal in itself, meaning that we want intimacy, sex, spend quality time with then, look at their smiles, etc as out primary goal when we try to attract women and enter relationships.

    Yup, like manosphere has said, it is US, men, who truly are romantics in dating. And women are, to be honest, basically prostitutes. They care more about status that are being provided for them by men (marriage, family, children, money, house and whatnot) than about men themselves.

    F*ck that. I have bought a “RealDoll” (look it up. You will be surprised at how hot a doll can be, hotter than 95% of women my age of about 32 years old…  Admitedly, it is not a perfect option, but, still, good enough, considering the alternative of being pressured into marriage, being potentially divorced, hence, losing our house, 401k, cars, kids, stuck paying alimony and child support and whatnot) and it made my life better. I did not have the need ask women out for a couple of years now since I have owned my doll, named Jenny, and after coming back from work instead of chassing tail, I am able just to relax, drink some beer, play video games, meet up with my buddies few times per week and be content with my life. Few of my buddies have noticed that I no longer have the anxiety and sexual *thirst* anymore, and had asked me about it. Now 3 of them are also enjoying this lifestyle. And none of them misses chasing tail anymore and they view modern marriage as a scam.

     

    What can I say, ladies… MGTOW

      1. 137.1.1
        DissafectedWithDating

        Yes, Evan, sad indeed, but thats their nature of hypergamy. Can’t really blame them, to be honest. We, men, have either to accept that to women we are going to be grunts and status providers, which is something we will have to provide in exchange of sex and emotional intimacy provided by them, or reject this conditionality and modern type of prostitution and reject women altogether, possibly in favor of aforementioned “RealDolls”.

        But yea, Evan, like you said, sad indeed.

    1. 137.2
      Karl R

      Evan,

      Dissafected has proven that he’s oblivious  to your sarcasm.

       

      DissafectedWithDating,

      Let me start by saying that I do not share your view of women in general.   There are some that treat intimacy as a means to an end.   That includes some women who post to this blog.   On dozens of occasions I have pointed out to these women that it is not in a man’s best interest to enter into a relationship with women who share that attitude.

       

      In my experience, most women treat intimacy as one of the goals of a relationship.   That has certainly been true of all of the women I have dated.

       

      DissafectedWithDating said:

      “they view us rather as tools to achieve something — whether is to get married, to get children, buy a house, etc.”

       

      My wife owned her own home long  before I met her.   My wife doesn’t want kids.   She got her tubes tied at least 20 years before I met her.   My wife and I were intimate long before we got married, long before we got engaged, and months before we explicitly agreed to date each other exclusively.

       

      My wife has sex because she enjoys sex.   That’s the same reason most women have sex.   She enjoys the friendship and companionship for its own sake.   That’s also true for most of the other women I know.

       

      However, I have to agree that a RealDoll is an excellent solution for you … and other men like you.   You don’t have to put up with women.   Women don’t have to put up with you.   Everyone benefits … including the manufacturers of the  RealDoll.

      1. 137.2.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Welcome back, Karl. You’ve been missed.

        Just a reminder to put one space between paragraphs – makes it easier to read.

        1. Karl R

          It’s a slow week at work.

      2. 137.2.2
        DissafectedWithDating

        I wouldn’t say Evan’s response to my first comment was sarcastic. I would say it was filled with pity. And  I was not oblivious to this aspect of his response whatsoever. I just chose to use the shallow ambiguity of what he meant for my own amusement. 🙂

        And when we talk about negative aspects that women possess in the dating world, once again I see the magical word “some” as in “not all women are like that”. And, honestly, yea, I agree. Indeed, not all women are like that. But I will dare to say  that most of them are. Why do I dare to state this? Because using sex and intimacy to gain status (financial, familial (is that a word?), social, etc) is in woman’s nature, just like it is in our nature to admire young women.

        I am also inclined to believe you when you say that your wife has enough money, has house, agreed to have sex with you early, yada yada yada. Still, that doesn’t change their hypergamous nature.

        1. Karl R

          Dissafected with dating said:

          “I agree. Indeed, not all women are like that. But I will dare to say that most of them are. Why do I dare to state this? Because using sex and intimacy to gain status (financial, familial (is that a word?), social, etc) is in woman’s nature, just like it is in our nature to admire young women.”

           

          First, familial is a word.   And you spelled it correctly.   Second, I assume that you’re basing your conclusions on evo-psych.   Is that correct?

          From an evolutionary standpoint, humans are one of a small handful of species that practices recreational sex.   Since we share that trait with bonobos, it is fairly likely that males and females have been engaging in sex for pleasure longer than we have actually existed as the homo sapiens species.   You seem to be conveniently ignoring any evidence of human nature that contradicts your conclusion.

          Furthermore, from an evo-psych perspective, using toilet paper is a completely unnatural behavior.   As a species, we’ve been practicing monogamy far longer than we’ve been wiping our asses with paper.   However, I think the overwhelming majority of modern American women use toilet paper … and the same women would be totally repulsed by the idea of using their hands instead.   Going a bit broader, scientists are slowly moving toward a consensus that nurture is as influential as nature.   You’re completely discounting the fact that we (for generations) have grown up in monogamous households, frequently with parents who met in college, or high school, and therefore are of equal age and social status … and through observation have been innately conditioned to believe that is the natural order of things.

          You appear willing to ignore any evidence that contradicts your conclusion.   That reminds me of a quote.   DissafectedWithDating, you may find your claim “daring”.   I don’t.

           

          Evan, it may be easier for you to read this with single spacing, but that’s not true on my browser.

      3. 137.2.3
        Christine

        Well, this RealDoll sounds strange to me but I have to admit, Karl R might be right that it could benefit certain men.

        There’s even a product sort of like this for women–a “boyfriend pillow”.   I never had one but saw one advertised in a women’s magazine years ago (yes, it’s an actual thing).   Personally, I never got one and I prefer human contact (especially my flesh-and-blood boyfriend).   But if anyone wants dolls instead, to each their own.

         

  18. 138
    Erika

    I just lost a hour of my life or more reading through all these comments. I’m dying to know what came of Katie and her dude.

    All those statistics in the comments section around area 2 and 3…. YAWN.   What was her freaking argument?   Booooring.

    My 2 cents…

    If you’re with someone who doesn’t want to get married, and you do, either stay with them or don’t. You stay, you accept that you might not get married. You don’t stay, you will probably find someone out there who will.   However.   Even partner’s who say they want marriage DON’T always put a ring on it… there’s a silver lining to the honesty given by either partner to this crazy question.

    Some of us marry the absolute wrong guy and have his beautiful children and give him their life.   I would recommend strongly against this.   Do this with the RIGHT guy.   Know who you are and what you want. Go after that exactly.   If you’re willing to settle for less,   that’s your own damn fault.   Life is too short for the wait and sees.

    I’ve been with the best man I’ve ever known for almost 2 years… we have lived together for 1.   We both were getting divorced when we met. Do I want to marry him?   Sometimes, yes. Does he?   Probably not…. his divorce was worse than my own.   But honestly,   I just want to be happy. And I am. I have children though so I’m not really tied down by that dreaded time clock.   He has no kids… he’s deciding to stay with me… if I can’t give him children when he decides he’s ready,   that’s his fault.   Not mine and it’s an issue that has been aired.

    Good luck,   sweet Katie.

  19. 139
    Clare

    Hi. I gotta chime in.   I believe in marriage.   I also believe in divorce if the situation becomes so broken that the marriage does not  function.   Would I recommend marriage or divorce……no.   My point is, it is such a personal decision.   In my case, I actually need to be married to the man I love and want to be with on a long-term basis or ’til death.   I can’t exactly explain that.   It just makes me happy, makes me feel secure and loved, and makes me want to be even a better partner.   Would I do it for a public reason…no.   Would I do it because of my religious beliefs…yes.   So, if I met someone and they didn’t feel or think as I do, but say they love me and want to be with me, I say that eventually, this issue will cause a breakup if you can’t resolve it within a year of dating.   That is a reasonable amount of time to decide if a partner is a long-term partner or not.   It is not that complicated.   So, if you can’t come to a decision by the one year mark, and you want to get married and the other doesn’t, you stay in the relationship at your own risk.   And, there may never be a happy ending.   You have to face that and face the consequences.   FYI – I am speaking from experience and also based on my own therapy.

  20. 140
    Angela

    Im amazed to find this, really.   I’m Angela.   I forgot I’d even written it and not because it was so ing ago but so removed from my current experience.   He proposed, it didn’t feel right, I married him, I left him within a year.   I moved to a very foreign country and began the process of healing and what’s shocking isn’t just that I wrote such angry things but that I’d deluded myself enough to think that this tiny issue of a marriage proposal was so pertinent to the things at hand.   What I’ve found since instead, was that my husband was mean.   He was mean and oblivious to what I wanted and who I was before I married him.   The energy, the feeling of it, was wrong, and instead of trusting my inherent voice and my instinct, I wrote in to this forum and I rationalized and I told myself it was such a small issue as the years it took for a proposal when it had nothing to do with it and it seldom does.   It’s not what we do but how.

    I feel so much better now – more whole, more alive and free and comfortable with myself and excited about my future.   It’s been ten months now since I left him, and it took a full eight to get to this place, but now, I’m so much lighter than I ever could have been.

    It wasn’t that he didn’t ask me to marry him, but that he made me feel bad, sometimes in subtle ways I couldn’t quantify or put my finger on but they were just as real and in some ways more so.   That was what I should have shifted my attention toward.

    And I’m so glad, I’m so so so glad I left.   It was the hardest thing I’ve done, a rebirth, a agonizing, horrible wretched year, but now, from here, the skies are so damn bright.

     

     

     

     

     

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