Is Online Dating Different for Men and Women?

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Do women have it a lot easier than men, and do hot people in general have it the easiest? I know what you might be thinking: yes and yes. It’s hardly the unsolved question of the century.

However, it’s always good to back up hypotheses with facts, and that’s what Jon Millward did with this experiment, posted on his eponymous blog. Millward created 10 fake OKCupid profiles with similar sounding usernames, with the same written profile, personal stats, level of education, etc. The only difference? Each account had a different photo of a man or woman of varying attractiveness.

In online dating, we have the “perception of choice”, but not actual choice itself.

What he discovered isn’t particularly revelatory, but it does echo something I’ve said here repeatedly about online dating – we have the “perception of choice”, but not actual choice itself.

“The expanded horizons offered by online dating don’t equal unrestricted access to a ready and waiting list of beautiful people. Every man and woman online still has criteria that must be met by people who want to date him or her, and every guy and girl is still in direct competition with every other person of their gender… Whereas before a man just needed to be the best looking guy at work to get a date with a colleague, now he needed to be in the top 10% of all men to get a date with one of the women in his city.”

This is the double-edged sword of online dating. You have far more access to singles than ever before. But so does everyone else. Which means that there’s also far more COMPETITION.

Especially when it comes to men trying to write to women. For all the talk about “The End of Men” and how gender roles have been obliterated and women can write to men first, blahblahblah, here’s what ACTUALLY happened after four months:

– The women as a group received over 20 times more messages than the men.

– The two most attractive women received 83% of all messages.

– The two most attractive women probably would have received several thousand more if their inboxes hadn’t have reached maximum capacity.

– It took 2 months, 13 days for the most popular woman’s inbox to fill up. At the current rate it would take the most popular man 2.3 years to fill up his.

And what do men write? Well, you’ve seen this a few times before:

“Most men compliment the attractive women a lot, they make reference to something in the woman’s profile (you would not believe how many times men mentioned the party tricks and ‘Arrow’ the cheetah from the generic profile I wrote), or they ask a general question about travel or something equally boring.”

What SHOULD he write instead? In case it’s not obvious: Demonstrate creativity, intelligence and a great sense of humour

– Be totally different to anything she may have received before
– Be obviously unique and not a cut-and-paste job
– Show that I’ve read her profile and absorbed facts about her
– Not be needy!

I have dedicated an entire volume of my bestselling audio series, Finding the One Online to how to write emails just like this.

Online dating may be a jungle, but it’s a jungle with a LOT of single people, so it’s best to learn how to master the process.

As a woman, your takeaway is that while you may get frustrated at the lack of quality responses, put yourself in a man’s shoes. He has no idea what to write in his first email to you, and he’s competing with hundreds of men for your attention. Be patient, write a better profile, and learn not to get so frustrated with men, and you can enjoy online dating a lot more.

As a man, your takeaway is that the competition is fierce, and thus far, you have not been up to it. Stop blaming Match or women or your city for your failures and learn to market yourself more effectively.

If you’ve been frustrated with your online dating experience, click here and I’ll help you change your tune.

The full study can be seen here.

Join our conversation (290 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 81
    Julia

    @stepha @Pheonics makes a good point. I am a white woman but I have many black female friends who date online. They are attractive, educated, young and get more messages than you describe. Could the problem be your geographical location? I know the uphill battle both black woman and asian men fave online and being that you are young, moving in order to be in a better place to find a mate might be of value. The DC area, Atlanta, Philadelphia, NYC metro are all areas with large populations of all kinds of men and people tend to be much more open-minded. I would also urge you to open up your pool of men you initially write to. Men might mark “white only” but they see a stunning beauty writing them are well crafted message, they will probably respond.

  2. 82
    Nicole

    @Phoenics, you summed things up beautifully.   I unfortunately landed on the West Coast for work and yes, it is the ninth circle of hell for black women socially.   Many men of all races don’t date and have never dated black women, including the black men, and like you, when I’m in the Midwest, South, or East Coast, I get hit on.   I have the option of ignoring men.   Of all colors, and without being Naomi Campbell.   Ditto in Western Europe (mostly in France or Italy).   
    Men seem to be heavily influenced by their peers, so it’s interesting how in some parts of the country, men of all races will hit on you, and out here, even men who are my color will not.
    Black women I know who grew up here said that until going to school or working on the East coast, many just thought this was the way the world worked everywhere.   I have two who leaving here in the next two months.   Both are natives, but yeah, one connected with a man on the East Coast and even if they break up, she’ll be able to date as much as she wants there.  
    The other is returning to the East Coast city where she went to college, and again, she had lots of options there and coming “home” has just been depressing and demoralizing, so she just called me to tell me she had moved up her move date by a month, and I do not blame her one bit.   
    I doubt Kathleen knows what it means to be colorstruck…non-black people in the US don’t understand that concept, although it does mean that most non-black people have no clue what black men find attractive since many will deviate from their supposed ideals if the women is light enough or non-black.
    As you said, we can control what we can control, but I’m more likely to invest the money when I’m someplace where it will matter.

  3. 83
    Joe

    @Tim #62
      
    You said “Why are we supposed to pretend that the aim of all dating and sex is to find a lifelong, committed relationship and anything else is failure and meaningless?”
      
    We aren’t pretending – but on this site, it’s the agreed-upon goal, so discussions are geared toward that goal.
      
    If this was a PUA (pick-up artist) website, would it be surprising that everyone only talked about how to reach their goal of hooking up for the night, and disregarded advice about maintaining long-term relationships, or advice on finding “The One”?
      
    This is merely the context of THIS site and its discussions – though your reminder that life is a journey is certainly useful and helpful as we often “lose the forest for the trees”.

  4. 84
    Stepha

    @Kathleen I understood your intent and wasn’t offended. I live in NYC where the problem isn’t that I can’t date interracially, I can, the problem is that dates in general are hard to come by in a city like this were the gender ratio imbalance favors men – more women than men.   I’m considering a move to Austin TX next year since it’s the kind of quirky, liberal city that might agree with my personality very well and might have more dating options for me in general.

  5. 85
    Nicole

    @Julia, as I explained, there is no way I would write to a man who says “no black chicks” b/c he has already demonstrated that he has a lot of negative stereotypes about black women and it’s not a compliment if I’m somehow “special” enough to get a reply (or for him to contact me first). I’m guessing you are white and this isn’t something you can understand. And I’m okay with that, but don’t really need your advice on this subject.
    If a man has his preferences spelled out and I do not fit them, I check off his profile so it doesn’t show up in my searches again.   I’ve read too many of the male commenters here who are full of righteous indigination if someone who doesn’t match their preferences dares to “soil” their inboxes so I’m not going to waste my energy on someone who has decided they don’t want someone like me.   I’ll focus on men that actually like black men.   They are out there, just not where I currently live.
    People’s racial attittudes are deeply ingrained and things get ugly with people who think you aren’t like the “other” black people and they’ll feel comfortable making racist comments in front of you.   Hardly the markings of a good partner for a black woman who will give him black children.
    A person who is really open-minded will either list everyone or no one, although a lot of the men who list no preference actually do have one.   But they do at least have the sense to keep their options open, but like I said, if you meet someone who is mildly racist they’ll usually say something stupid early on so you know not to bother with them.
    They ones with crazy ideas never fail to say something offensive in their first or second emails.   It is uncanny.

  6. 86
    Kathleen

    Nicole I am white and can understand what you are saying
    Heres another example   I get contacted by guys who say in their profile ” If you are older than 50 do not even think of contacting me”   Then they contact me and say Ill be an exception cause I don’t look 54. They say they don’t want to be contacted by someone who looks 54 ..So i say “well this IS what 54 looks like ….goodbye ”
    The   same thing happens with ultra religious guys who must have a god fearing woman and then they write to me saying religion is now not important ……
    The way I see it all their qualifiers and criteria go out the window if they see someone they like.   These guys are too unsophisticated to date  
    Stepha 86 Thanks Good luck with Austin

  7. 87
    Goldie

    @ “Men might mark “white only” but they see a stunning beauty writing them are well crafted message, they will probably respond.”
      
    Um, I’m not even sure if *I* would respond to a man whose profile says white only! Not to mention if it said “no (my ethnicity)” and then he’d write to me anyway, cuz stunning beauty! – no. nonono. He cannot accept what I am, he cannot accept my family or my heritage, what am I supposed to do with this guy? What will he do with me once my “stunning beauty” fades, and I’m still that same ethnicity? I totally understand what Nicole is saying.
      
    I find it really sad that this still continues to be an issue in the 21st century. I know the majority of my generation is insanely xenophobic — almost every guy I dated, felt like he was reaching way outside of his comfort zone to date me, just because I’m not originally from here. I thought GenY did not have these issues, but here I see posts from people in their 20s saying that there’s the same damn thing going on. I hope at least my kids’ generation will be colorblind.

  8. 88
    Julia

    I think you all misread what I wrote, or rather that I wasn’t entirely clear. I guess Match asks racial preferences. If a man marks white as his preference you might still write him. If he wrote “whites only” in his actual profile then I would agree he’s racist. I’ve never used Match though, so I’m not sure if this is how it works.

  9. 89
    Julia

    The reality is if someone only searches “white” (or  Asian   or  Latina)   then they are missing you completely. I don’t think searching by racial preference means you are racist I think it just filters out plenty of women he might also be interested in. People don’t often know exactly what they want and a beautiful woman writing them will motivate to get to know women out of their typical comfort zone. Just like Evan tells us to get out of our comfort zone (like height preference)

  10. 90
    Cat5

    I wouldn’t go out or respond to a guy who specifies, “No [fill in ethncity],”   in his profile either since I know we aren’t a match just from that statement.
      
    I have a tendency to not contact or reply to any man who has a profile that contains negatives of any kind – no drama, no women shorter 5′ 10″, etc  — whatever it is.   If a guy’s leading of with his “no” foot, then he’s probably got issues I don’t want to deal with anyway.

  11. 91
    Tim

    @ Karmic Equation # 64
    “I think ATTRACTIVE women have more dating options than attractive men. I think average women don’t have the options you’re talking about.”
    .
    AVERAGE LOOKING  women have way more dating options than   AVERAGE LOOKING  men. Just do a an experiment yourself. Put up 2 profiles on a dating site of an average looking guy and an average looking woman. See who gets more offers. Alternatively message 100 people of opp sex from each profile and see who gets more responses..who has a higher success rate.  
    .
    Men are a lot more forgiving and have very reasonable standards   in online dating. It is a myth that only hot women get attention and offers on dating sites. It is only women’s prerogative to notice, show interest and initiate messaging with men who stand out in terms of looks and other aspects.   The results of the Jon Millward experiment also shows that the least attractive rated woman got more messages than average looking men. Why the heck dont you consider that?
    .
    Average looking women only compare themeslevs with the attention and mesages that hot women are getting. They dont compare themselves with the ordeal of the average looking men (their equals) who are almost completely invisible in online dating.

  12. 92
    Karmic Equation

    @Tim
      
    I may be wrong as I don’t do online dating, because I’m not photogenic 🙂 but attractive IRL.
      
    It could be YOUR idea of average is MOST men’s idea of hot. So while YOU may think you’re initiating with average women, other men are inundating their inboxes because THEY consider her hot. Just a possibility.
      
    I believe that women still expect men to initiate in online dating as they do IRL. So, that could be a reason why men in general don’t get emails from interested women.
      
    Now, if your complaint is that WHEN you do initiate, you don’t get responses, well maybe you need to experiment and initiate with less-than-average-looking women and see how fast you get responses. Bet you you’ll get more responses than you thought.
      
    And if I understood women’s replies here, as well as Evan’s advice, it’s possible that YOUR initial contact doesn’t stand out amongst the others these women are receiving and therefore, if women consider you an average guy with an average online-approach, they may overlook your emails. But if you’re an average guy with an above-average online approach, then you might have better luck.
      
    In the end, I’m sorry you seem disgruntled. In the same way that I will avoid online dating because of lack of photogenics, perhaps you need to avoid online dating if you’re not getting the results you seek. Venting may make you feel better, but nothing will change for you until you do something different.

  13. 93
    Kathleen

    I agree with Karmics points to Tim 94
    If Tim did an experiment where he ranked women’s attractiveness to him and wrote to those ranked “2-6    out of 10” I bet he would see an inversely proportioned corresponding response rate    Maybe the point of ranking where they drop off responding is the level he might want to try focusing on more.
    I will always appreciate a well crafted message even if its from an average guy   One of the best ones I got was 2 words but it was clever  
      

  14. 94
    Barb

    Personally, I think online dating is the only way to go.   It not only affords you with the most choices in a solitary location, but it allows you to weed out those that you would never date it if you had met them in the real world much more efficiently.  
    I’m in sales, and think everything in life is a numbers game.   Even if I went out every night, it would be highly unlikely that I would meet one man each night that caught my interest and reciprocated that interest.   Online, I had an endless supply of possible men to contact on Match.com and was receiving about 5 to 10 emails per day from men reaching out to me.   While I’m attractive and don’t look close to  50, as I actually am, I’m not a 20 something swimsuit model.   I’m about 20 lbs heavier than the tables tell me I should be at my height.   So, think slightly above average, with a great sense of humor and a career that brings 100k a year.   A decent catch for the men I was looking to connect with (47 to 57, highly intelligent,  active, attractive, financially responsible and a great sense of humor themselves).  
    What I found was that men were not great at writing profiles, so very little could be discerned without them  contacting them or me contacting them.   On the flip side, when I looked at some of the competition out there, most women were complaining about game players or listing all the things they didn’t want.   I read so many negative female profiles, I actually felt sorry for the men that they might eventually end up with.  
    As I mentioned, I was looking for a man with a sense of humor and there were very few profiles out there that even hinted at humor.   So to make sure that every man that contacted me could at least perceive humor, I had a profile that screamed this girl is funny.   My profile was a take off of a ShamWow commercial called GirlfriendWow.   I also had about 12 pictures of myself (not professionally taken) showing headshots, pics with friends, pics alone, a pic with my dog, and full length pictures.   That way, when someone met me they didn’t say…hmmm…no wonder you didn’t show those thunder thighs : )   But it was easy to weed out form letter emails and those that just looked at my pictures because they mentioned things like my profile showed I had integrity or that they could tell I put a lot of thought into my profile and that we had a lot in common.   Unless they were a fan of the Shamwow commercial, what could we possibly have in common from a quick glance at my profile?  
    But what to do about sending out emails to men when their profiles afforded me little to no insight as to who they really were or whether or not they had that illusive sense of humor  I was looking for?   It was a crap shoot.   So I had to come up with   criteria.   What turned me off, was a good place to start.   Men leading with their money turned me off.   So if someone had a bunch of pictures standing next to their toys (Beemers, Sports Cars, Jetskis, Boats, Motorcycles), they were a pass.   Also, a man who put his income of 150K plus in his profile was a turn off too.   Someone who posted a picture with his shirt off showing his muscular body…..denied.   Or that random high school picture in the midst of “current” pics that looked like a police artist’s set of age progression pics……who is this guy anyway and why do none of his pictures look anything alike?   So, I had my list of “don’t contacts”.  
    I reached out to very few men.   It’s easy as a woman because our inbox does get A LOT more attention than our male counterparts (sorry guys, it’s just the way it is).   However, I can tell you that I would have missed out on an awesome guy if I had just sat back and waited for him to come to me.  
    He lives a 50 minute drive from me.   He has an awesome sense of humor but his profile read like a cereal box, although not as exciting.   He is very intelligent and has a great career, drives a BMW, has a beautiful immaculate home, and has his act together.   He had not indicated on his profile that he was well off, he had not indicated on his profile that he had a sense of humor, he had not indicated on his profile any of the qualities that I was looking for.   He had written a profile without spelling errors (hints towards intelligence), he had written a profile that was more than just a few sentences, although dry (hints that he is taking this online dating thing serious), he had pictures of himself smiling….head shot, and full body, in a clean surrounding (hints that he isn’t full of himself and isn’t a candidate for the show Hoarders).   And when I got that first email back from him, he by the grace of God, had an awesome sense of humor.  
    Because “he” didn’t have anything setting him apart from the pack, he was not getting any contact from Match women and no response from the emails he was sending out.   Awesome for me because I had this gem all to myself in cyber dating world, but kind of sad for him.   Just goes to show you the disparity between the sexes in the online dating world.  
    So guys, you are always going to get less responses  and initial contacts,  so I would be a huge advocate for using EMK’s profile writing service.   It’s bound to help increase your response greatly and might even get you contacted first by some lovely lady.   And ladies, don’t be afraid to contact a man you are interested in, instead of just relying on what’s coming to you in your inbox.   When you take the first step, you are choosing someone YOU would like to get to know.   You might wait forevever for him to come across your profile and contact you.  
    And I was one of the lucky ones….I found my boyfriend in just two short months online.   From what I understand, that doesn’t often happen.   So hang in there, don’t get discouraged and keep trying.   It’s still the biggest solitary location to find your Mr. Right or Miss Right.  
    Oh, and I also bought EMK’s Finding The One Online.   I’d recommend that product to everyone who is considering online dating.   Lots of awesome advice ; )
      
      

  15. 95
    Tim

    Karmic Equation & Kathleen
      
    Its funny that you’ve conviniently overlooked every point in my posts and made it about how presumably I am not having success in online dating.
    .
    This article is asking whether women have it easier in online dating than men. I say absolutely yes. And I have presented evidence and arguments in multiple posts now. Why are you giving me advice how to do better instead of refuting that claim (you seem to have a problem with) ?
    .
    You know I am willing to go with YOUR defintion of whats AVERAGE LOOKING. go ahead do an   experiment. I am willing to bet that an average looking woman will 1.  get more messages AND 2. a higher response rate than an average looking guy.  
    .
    In addition, women who have really mediocre poorly written profiles ALSO get a lot of messages. Its just men who have to write interesting well articlutated profiles just to get noticed and get a response. Go ahead and do this experiment as well. Make a dummy regular woman’s profile. You dont need to write anything more than the fact that she eats, sleeps, poops. She’ll still get more offers than most men with well written profiles.
    .
    So as you’ must’ve noticed by now I am not disgruntled about my own failure, I am only interested in making a goddamn comparison here…a comparison between men and women.
      
      

  16. 96
    Karmic Equation

    @Tim
      
    Sorry. If that was your point, I did miss it. I agree that women have it easier in online dating, particularly if you look at NUMBER OF MESSAGES. IRL, women get more approaches than men, because it’s the TYPICAL male-female dynamic–man approaches, woman receives. My point is that dynamic DOESN’T change because the dating is now online instead of IRL. If you had different expectations, then you had wrong expectations of what online dating would do for you.
      
    So if your ONLY point is that women have it easier with being contacted, then yes, but it’s not a phenomenon of online dating. It’s just part of dating, whether IRL or online.

  17. 97
    Cybergal

    @tim
    i wish i had more luck than the average guy. I’m an average slim petite woman with a friendly profile and i get contacted maybe once a week. If i contact men they don’t get back to me. I have had a lot of chatting get to the stage where they ask me out for a drink or coffee, and as soon as i say yes I never hear from them again. This has happened countless times.  
    So where are you getting your statistics from?
    also perhaps women don’t contact men because like me they never get a response?  
    And can anyone explain what to say when asked out for a drink because obviously ‘yes’ isn’t the correct response. one guy, when i gave him my number, told me i was desperate. Okay.
      
    so Tim, be honest here, when women who are of average attractiveness contact you and show interest, do you reciprocate? Cause I’m getting the message that men WANT to be the ‘hunter’ and playing hard to get is the way to attract men.
      
    thanks.

    1. 97.1
      Blondie99

      I know EMK touts online dating but I’m with you.   I feel like about 90% of the men are interesting in 10% of the women on these sites within their desired age range.   So what that means is that 10% of women are getting bombarded with emails and have their pick, they go on dates 7 nights a week and rarely respond to men.   They probably never pick a guy because they can’t there are too many.   The men get pissed because they say no woman will answer them, or they do get an answer and it drops off or go on a date and she never calls, but don’t realize there are 80% other great women who rarely go out and get only a few messages.   The 10% of women are overwhelmed and exhausted and tired of getting nasty messages from men, the men are tired of being rejected and the 80% of women give up.       I don’t understand how this works for anyone?

      1. 97.1.1
        Z

        I disagree with the statement that 90% of the guys on dating websites go for 10% of the women on the dating websites. if that would be the case there would be no argument about women getting too many messages and needing to sort out. a guy sends a message when he has interest even if ist just about avarage interest he will send a message to not leave the possibility of something coming up out. id rather ague the opposite that women go for the upper 15% of the males. there was a graph of i think it was okcupid that showed the average ratings from one sex on the other where male have a normal curve settled around the middle two ratings while women find way less men attractive. alone that theres women that go for a specific height range from 1,90m upwards. that alone is a very small part of the population already. if you have more things on your list it drasticly reduces your target area. even dating specialists have frequently talked about women having too high standarts. so i dont get where YOU get that number of

        1. SparklingEmerald

          That OK Cupid study showed how men RANKED women in terms of looks, and it was distrubuted like a normal bell curve.   However, in terms of who they actually CONTACTED, it was only the upper echelon of women.   Women on the other hand rated women men more harshly, rated many men “below average” in looks, but went out with more men.   I saw the men that women had supposedly rated as “below average”.   I thought one of the men was “averagely pleasant looking” and the other men were really cute.   However, they were too young for me, and   I wasn’t part of the study so that point is rather moot.

        2. Karl R

          SparklingEmerald,

          You’re misstating the OKCupid study.   (So was Z, but that just makes you both incorrect.)   It said “2/3 of male messages go to the top 1/3 of women.”   Men contact all women, even the least attractive.   They just contact them a lot less frequently.

          The most attractive women receive 26 times more messages than the least attractive women.   But both end of the spectrum receive messages.   The most attractive men receive 11 times more messages than the least attractive men.   It’s the same curve for both sexes, just a little less steep when women are messaging men.

           

          If you flip it around and look at how men and women reply to messages, men are generally more likely to reply to an email than a woman is, regardless of the attractiveness of the sender, especially if you normalize based on the skewed differences in the attractiveness curve.   (Normalization is necessary for an accurate comparison, particularly at the low end of the scale, since 26% of men, as compared to 6% of women, are labeled as “least attractive”.)

        3. Emily, the original

          Karl R,

          26%  of men, as compared to  6%  of women, are labeled as “least attractive”.)

          I think there’s some truth to statement that men find a greater number of women attractive than the number of men woman find attractive. I worked with 400 people at my previous place of employment. I heard the men talking about some of the women, women I would describe as average, as being “cute,” whereas the general consensus among the women was a dearth of hunkazoids in full-time employees. There was also a consensus on the rare times an attractive contractor showed up. News of his arrival spread like wildfire among the women all over the building.

        4. Shaukat

          Moreover, there is no indication from the OK Cupid data that women actually ‘went out’ with the men that were rated average to below average. They may have messaged them, but anyone who has engaged in online dating knows that you can engage in cyber dialogue only to have it fizzle out before actually meeting. Additionally, the fact that men messaged women who were rated above average in large numbers is not at all surprising considering it was through a medium where factors such as approach anxiety are non-existent. They have nothing to lose from shooting out a message, and potentially everything to gain.

        5. Emily, the original

          Shaukut,

          They have nothing to lose from shooting out a message, and potentially everything to gain.

          It depends on which women the men were messaging. As Blondie99 wrote:    What I saw with most of my male friends is that the women they were emailing they were likely to have no chance in heck of ever getting a response from. …   And most would never approach her in person cause they knew that but as soon as they got online suddenly they expected things to change.  

          Simply making the approach doesn’t create an opportunity if the person doing the approach, be it a man or a woman, doesn’t have realistic expectations.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          Simply making the approach doesn’t create an opportunity if the person doing the approach, be it a man or a woman, doesn’t have realistic expectations.

          My experience with online dating is that women tend to go bigger than men when they make the first move.   Women who are willing to “open” a conversation almost always shoot for a man with a higher to much higher SMV, which is why my radar went hot when an HB8/9 hit on me several months ago.   HB8s and HB9s never have to “open” a man.

          I am not going to sugar coat it. The cold hard truth is that being part of the top 20% of men on a dating site is an amazing place to be.   It means the difference between deciding who a man is going to meet versus struggling to obtain a date.   The other 80% stands a better chance of meeting an equal in real life.   It is just a fact of life. Women are extremely selective compared to men, and that propensity is magnified on dating sites because women tend to treat profiles like pages in a catalog.

        7. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Women are extremely selective compared to men, and that propensity is magnified on dating sites because women tend to treat profiles like pages in a catalog.

          If this is true, then, yes, men would better spend their time being realistic. (Just as a woman should.)

        8. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          If this is true, then, yes, men would better spend their time being realistic. (Just as a woman should.)

          It is absolutely true. Women do in fact key on a very small percentage of the men on dating sites. I can enable my profile on Monday and have several dates in the works by Wednesday.   I have friends who have been on dating sites for years and rarely obtain a date.   It is all about looks combined with attributes and the ability to write/package well.    The right combo is like throwing “chum” into the water due the mail order catalog-like approach that women use on online dating sites.

        9. Shaukat

          Wouldn’t it be ridiculous for me to message the hottest 25-year-old guys? I can barely type that out with laughing.

          Depends what you’re looking for. If you just wanted sex, then yes, you likely could message several attractive 25 year olds and get responses. Wouldn’t work in the reverse if a man were to do this.

          I agree with you that people should have realistic expectations, however, the problem is that unless a man is experienced he won’t understand how women evaluate attractiveness, in the physical sense, online. You seem to think that the men who receive no responses online are messaging women 20 years younger than them, which often isn’t the case. It’s mainly average chumps who don’t know how to package themselves sending out mass generic emails, failing to realize that women tend to view 80 percent of men as below average. You’ve said yourself that you find most men unattractive.

          That said, I tend to agree more with Karl R on this point than Tom10. I’ve matched with, and gone on plenty of dates, with 7-8/10s while also being passed over by 3/10s on those swiping apps (I used to swipe right on everyone, which is how I know). I’ve also sat across the table from 7/10s and felt nothing because of a lack of chemistry. Looks do matter, you’d have to be clueless to deny this, but it’s more complicated than this binary reality that Tom seems to have created in his head, which I think he wants to summarize as “either in my league/or out of my league.”

        10. Emily, the original

          Shakut,
          It’s mainly average chumps who don’t know how to package themselves sending out mass generic emails, failing to realize that women tend to view 80 percent of men as below average.
          Yes, true. I don’t know that much about online dating. Just what some of my friends tell me. But that is what I meant about people needing realistic expectations. There’s no way 80 percent of men are below average. That doesn’t make statistical sense.
          You’ve said yourself that you find most men unattractive.
          No, I said I’m attracted to few men. There are plenty of men I enjoy talking to. I just don’t have that pull that makes me want to go to bed with them.
          I’ve matched with, and gone on plenty of dates, with 7-8/10s while also being passed over by 3/10s on those swiping apps. I’ve also sat across the table from 7/10s and felt nothing because of a lack of chemistry. Looks do matter, you’d have to be clueless to deny this, but it’s more complicated than this binary reality that Tom seems to have created in his head, which I think he wants to summarize as “either in my league/or out of my league.”
          I couldn’t agree with you more, and often I think, due to the shallow nature of online dating, someone you would have great chemistry with in person may be someone whose picture you would dismiss online.

        11. Tom10

          Shaukat
          “Looks do matter, you’d have to be clueless to deny this, but it’s more complicated than this binary reality that Tom seems to have created in his head, which I think he wants to summarize as “either in my league/or out of my league.”
            
          Lol. We’ve had this discussion a few times.
            
          I know that there are millions of intangibles and unquantifiables in dating leading to the conclusion my binary world is a ridiculous over-simplification.
            
          I just find it more than a coincidence that I’m never, ever rejected by those I couldn’t care less about; only those that I really really like. And this seems to be pret-ty common experience…

        12. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          I just find it more than a coincidence that I’m never, ever rejected by those I couldn’t care less about; only those that I really really like. And this seems to be pretty common experience…

          If, after a date, I think to myself: There are men I would pay money to hear from. This guy isn’t one of them. He will invariably call.     🙂

        13. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original
          “If, after a date, I think to myself: There are men I would pay money to hear from. This guy isn’t one of them. He will invariably call.”
            
          Chuckle. Well, Emily, that sounds suspiciously like a binary world where someone is either…well, you know the rest at this stage. 😉
            
          So it isn’t just me then…

        14. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          So it isn’t just me then…

          No. I recently moved several hours away. I’ll use an example of three of my former male coworkers to illustrate my point. One I consider a friend but don’t want to date. One I enjoy talking to and flirting with, but my sexual interest in him isn’t strong. One knocks me over. I had to get out my smelling salts every time he walked by. I think you can guess where I’m going with this. The first one has offered to come and visit me. The second texts me every blue moon to keep the door open for what he thinks is going to be an extended throwdown if I ever come back to visit. The third I haven’t heard from at all.

      2. 97.1.2
        Blondie99

        I am not relying on any studies just my personal experiences and those of my female friends, nothing scientific just my hypothesis. I was bombarded by men who clearly never read my profile and just looked at pictures while many of my other friends were lucky to get one email a week. Was I picky on who I responded to sure I was.   Why, because first of all I could be and second I received so many emails that the easiest way to pick was looks. I often thought that guys were screwing each other. See if only men who fit what I was actually looking for had emailed me, I would not have had so many emails from men who never even read my profile clogging things up and more men would get responses but that would not work unless all men were on board.    I always said if you think she’s hot so does every other dude on here. And the advice I gave to my male friends was only to email women they would actually approach in person. What I saw with most of my male friends is that the women they were emailing they were likely to have no chance in heck of ever getting a response from. To be blunt these women were WAY out of their league.   And most would never approach her in person cause they knew that but as soon as they got online suddenly they expected things to change. Funny thing is that guy likely had a better chance with the girl in person than he ever will online.   As a woman I knew when I was out of my league and never emailed those men.   Why waste my time? Why not instead look for men that are what I’m actually looking for looks aside?   So studies aside I say to men use that guide.   That 7 or 8 in your mind is likely a total no fit for you and that’s if you can manage to get and keep her attention.

        1. Tom10

          @ Blondie99 # 97.1.2
          “And the advice I gave to my male friends was only to email women they would actually approach in person. What I saw with most of my male friends is that the women they were emailing they were likely to have no chance in heck of ever getting a response from. To be blunt these women were WAY out of their league.   And most would never approach her in person cause they knew that but as soon as they got online suddenly they expected things to change.”
            
          Lol, I think this is a universal experience.
            
          I receive about a dozen emails a day on POF from various women; 90% of whom I would never reply to, 9% of whom I might reply to if I’m bored/drunk/lonely/horny and 1% of whom are actually of interest and worth a genuine reply.
            
          What’s staggering is that some women email again and again…and again; sometimes spaced only a few weeks apart. Do they not remember getting no response the first time?
            
          “To be blunt these women were WAY out of their league.   And most would never approach her in person cause they knew that but as soon as they got online suddenly they expected things to change.”
            
          Chuckle. It’s funny, one would expect that if someone is continually getting no responses that they’d figure out that they’re batting too high, recalculate their value and drop down a level in quality. Water finding its own level and all that.
            
          However, in practice, it seems that no-one really likes to accept their actual level so people just keep trying harder and harder, over and over, becoming more and more bitter/jaded.
            
          The problem isn’t with me over-estimating myself; the problem is with them over-estimating themselves!!!

        2. Karl R

          Blondie99 said:

          “I always said if you think she’s hot so does every other dude on here.”

          OKCupid did a second study about looks.   They proved that your statement is wrong.

          More interestingly (and counter-intuitively), the less men agree about a woman’s looks, the more  frequently men will contact her … particularly if the opinions are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

           

          Blondie99 said:

          “What I saw with most of my male friends is that the women they were emailing they were likely to have no chance in heck of ever getting a response from. To be blunt these women were WAY out of their league.”

          I suspect I could find at least six women whom you would say were way out of my league … all of whom I’ve dated … including my wife.

          Either a woman was my type, or she wasn’t.   Either I was her type, or I wasn’t.   There are no “leagues”.

           

          Blondie99 said:

          “As a woman I knew when I was out of my league and never emailed those men.”

          How do you decide which men are “out of your league”?   Just based on looks?   How do you know what  a man’s personal preference (their “type”) is?

          In the real world, I could read a woman’s body language to determine whether or not she was attracted to me.   Clearly, that option wasn’t available online.   The only way to find out was to send a message and see if I got a response.

           

          Blondie99 said:

          “And most would never approach her in person cause they knew that but as soon as they got online suddenly they expected things to change. Funny thing is that guy likely had a better chance with the girl in person than he ever will online.”

          How do you know the guys wouldn’t approach the same women in real life?

          I knew my odds were much better in real life.   Many other men feel the same way.   (Countless men have commented or complained about that on this blog.)

          In the real world men can read a woman’s body language (with varying degrees of skill) before approaching.   Online, that’s not possible.   That’s the primary difference determining whom I approached in real life vs. online.

           

          Blondie99,

          Most of your comments appear to be based on your preconceived notions of what men think, how they act, and how successful they are.

           

        3. Emily, the original

          Karl R,
          I suspect I could find at least six women whom you would say were way out of  my  league … all of whom I’ve dated … including my wife. Either a woman was my type, or she wasn’t.   Either I was her type, or I wasn’t.   There are no  “leagues”.
          Well, I think she meant staying away from the obvious impossibilities. For example, if an average-looking 45-year-old man is messaging the most attractive 25-year-old women. Might a small percentage of them be interested? Possibly, but flip the situation. I’m a 46. Wouldn’t it be ridiculous for me to message the hottest 25-year-old guys? I can barely type that out with laughing.

        4. Blondie99

          @tom10, so it is not just men that do that?   I cannot begin to understand why someone would repeatedly email you when you have failed to respond. I got that too, and the men were downright nasty.   “what you don’t have time for me?”   I mean really do you think that is going to get me to respond?     Personally I very rarely emailed men or made the first move, but when I did if he did not answer that was it, I let it go.

        5. Blondie99

          @KarlR as I said above this is based on my personal experiences with online dating, my discussions with men on dates, and friends who do online dating,   as well as many articles that I have read and women.   It is by no means a scientific study, it is just my opinion in my experience.

          I believe you that you have dated many women, even married them who others would have said where out of your league, in the real world, not in online dating.   As you note I mentioned that most of the men, who would never approach this woman in public, but would in online dating, actually would have a chance with her if they approached her in real life.   Online dating is TOTALLY different than meeting someone offline.   Offline you have the chance to make an overall impression. Online, looks matter a lot more.

          The reason I suggested to my male friends to use the “would I approach her in person test” is because with most men that worked.      There are some men that would approach any single woman with no care in the world about being rejected and I applaud those guys, seriously what do you have to lose in person.   That being said, most men will not approach women whom they think are going to shoot them down.

          Finally, how do I judge what is out of my leauge, well I do not think this is really rocket science.     In the real world most people can look at two people and say one or the other is out of their league.   Ever see a guy with a really hot girl and think how did that dude get her? Or vice versa?   Maybe you don’t do that but most people do.   If I am a 40 year old woman who is 50 pounds overweight, and average looking, to me a 22 year old man with pefect abs, over 6 foot tall, is out of my leauge.   We can say oh it does not matter and it’s all about personal taste, but let’s be real here.

        6. Blondie99

          @Emily the original, totally spot on.     The idea of me messaging a man so much younger than me that is gorgeous is actually quite ridiculous and that’s what I mean.

        7. Emily, the original

          Blondie99,  

          The idea of me messaging a man so much younger than me that is gorgeous is actually quite ridiculous and that’s what I mean.

          What irks me about the larger societal response is that   an older woman messaging a younger man is considered laughable and ill-advised, but an older man messaging a younger women is creating an opportunity.  

        8. Tom10

          @  Blondie99
          “so it is not just men that do that?   I cannot begin to understand why someone would repeatedly email you when you have failed to respond”
            
          Yep women are just as guilty at online malfeasance.
            
          I remember one in particular who sent three emails in a row without reply. Then she asked me to reply just once with random letters to check that her account was working because she was getting no responses from anyone.
            
          So I wrote back; “R T E” or some other random collection of letters, to which she replied “haha, you’re funny, what does that mean?” What!
            
          Others write really long well-crafted emails, clearly having read my profile in detail, and I just wonder do they not have any understanding of “dating dynamics” at all? (I’m afraid to use the term “leagues”). Such seemingly smart, well-educated people who have been dating for decades and they just seem to have no clue!
            
          It’s just the nature of the beast tho’ eh? 😉
            
          “Online dating is TOTALLY different than meeting someone offline.   Offline you have the chance to make an overall impression.”
            
          Right. Like night and day.
            
          “Online, looks matter a lot more.”
            
          It’s astonishing how looks and age are actually ALL that matter online. One great photo can lead to an astounding increase in interest.
            
          Your new house? Doesn’t matter.
          Your ‘round-the-world once-in-a-lifetime adventure? Doesn’t matter.
          Just finished your masters? Doesn’t matter.
            
          Hot new pic where you look just fabulous? Boom! Game on.
            
          “The idea of me messaging a man so much younger than me that is gorgeous is actually quite ridiculous and that’s what I mean.”
            
          You’d be surprised how many older women message younger men; I get them everyday. I have a theory that many do it to even up the playing field a bit; as they get so many messages from older men they try even the score by email younger themselves.
            
          And why not? 🙂

        9. Karl R

          Emily, the original asked:

          “I’m a 46. Wouldn’t it be ridiculous for me to message the hottest 25-year-old guys?”

          “What irks me about the larger societal response is that   an older woman messaging a younger man is considered laughable and ill-advised, but an older man messaging a younger women is creating an opportunity.”

          Blondie99 said:

          “The idea of me messaging a man so much younger than me that is gorgeous is actually quite ridiculous and that’s what I mean.”

          Emily,

          I would say any person who sends a message creates an opportunity … definitely more of an opportunity than doing nothing.

          Let’s assume (similar to Tom10’s numbers) that your chances of messaging a hot 25 year old is around 1% (though OKCupid indicates that even the least attractive women have a 6% reply rate from the most attractive men).   What are your chances of dating that hot guy if you don’t message him?   Approximately 0%?

          As long as you have a teflon ego, what did it cost you to message him?   One or two minutes of your time?   Did you have something better to do with those one or two minutes?

          Is there anything preventing you from messaging dozens, hundreds or thousands of hot 25 year olds?

          OKCupid’s published stats:

          For 45 year old women contacting 25 year old men, there is a 61% reply rate, as compared to a 40% reply rate when those women are contacting 45 year old men.

          Maybe the ridiculous people are the ones who refuse to try.

           

          Sending a message to someone  who is substantially  more attractive has  low(er) odds of success, but there’s still extremely little risk involved.   So the only question is, would you find it rewarding enough to put in that minimal effort?

          I found very few women online whose profiles generated any interest (mostly due to lack of content) … fewer as their ages diverged from mine.   But that was based on my preferences.   I didn’t sabotage my efforts by convincing myself a message would fail before I even wrote it.

           

          Blondie99 said:

          “In the real world most people can look at two people and say one or the other is out of their league.   Ever see a guy with a really hot girl and think how did that dude get her? Or vice versa?”

          “If I am a 40 year old woman who is 50 pounds overweight, and average looking, to me a 22 year old man with pefect abs, over 6 foot tall, is out of my leauge.   We can say oh it does not matter and it’s all about personal taste, but let’s be real here.”

          I really appreciate how you negated your own argument.   Your own examples of “leagues” existing shows that  some surprising match-ups  really happen … and then you try to claim that it doesn’t happen in reality.

          Your argument lacks internal consistency.

           

          Blondie99 said:

          “I believe you that you have dated many women, even married them who others would have said where out of your league, in the real world, not in online dating.”

          Are you just making random guesses?

          One of the six women I was counting was through online dating.   (I excluded a seventh — another online date — because she turned down a second date.)

           

          Blondie99 said:

          “As you note I mentioned that most of the men, who would never approach this woman in public, but would in online dating, actually would have a chance with her if they approached her in real life.”

          How do you know that the men wouldn’t have approached those women in real life?   (Since you made random guesses about my life, I suspect you’re making random guesses about other men’s lives too.)

          However, assuming you are correct about those men, they need to become more bold about approaching women in real life, not less bold about approaching women online.

           

           

          Tom10 asked:

          “Do they not remember getting no response the first time?”

          Probably not.

          Non-responses aren’t that memorable.   Particularly not after the “Sent” message has auto-deleted  several weeks later.

        10. Blondie99

          @emily agreed. But I also think that women are more realistic.   I am reminded of a cartoon I saw with a woman who is super skinny looking in the mirror and seeing an overweight person and a man who is flabbier than ever looking in that same mirror seeing a perfect 10.   My fiancé and I watch 90 day fiancé and he will say omg look at that creepy old dude with the young girl and I say honey that creepy old dude is younger than you. I think each man has a story of a friend of a friend who dated and married a girl that’s 15 years younger and how great it is.    So they dream.   When I was in my late 20s and early 30s I could not for the life of me understand why men 15 years older were emailing me and repeatedly and getting mad when I did not respond!   So sure there may be some women in their 20s who want a man in his late 40s but they are not quite as common as men want to believe.   I don’t think it’s society I think it’s mostly men who create this idea, but it’s certainly changing. I mean as a woman in her 30s with a high sex drive, I do not want an older man. Online dating is not real life dating and you do have to be realistic about those you email or not get mad if you don’t get responses.

        11. Tom10

          Yet Another Guy wrote:
          “women tend to go bigger than men when they make the first move.   Women who are willing to “open” a conversation almost always shoot for a man with a higher to much higher SMV”
            
          Blondie99 wrote:
          “I also think that women are more realistic.   I am reminded of a cartoon I saw with a woman who is super skinny looking in the mirror and seeing an overweight person and a man who is flabbier than ever looking in that same mirror seeing a perfect 10”
            
          This is just too funny.
            
          Western dating in a nutshell.

        12. Emily, the original

          Tom10 and Blondie99,

          “so it is not just men that do that?   I cannot begin to understand why someone would repeatedly email you when you have failed to respond”

          I have a friend on match. She’s been on it for about 4 months. Some of the men message her twice … the second time, weeks or months later, not remembering they’ve already contacted her, and that she didn’t respond.

        13. Emily, the original

          Blondie99,  

          I think each man has a story of a friend of a friend who dated and married a girl that’s 15 years younger and how great it is.    So they dream.    

          Yeah, everybody thinks they are the exception to the rule, but most of us aren’t.

          I wouldn’t want to date someone more than about   5 or so years older. As I’ve aged, the men I find appealing have aged with me. Their image hasn’t stayed frozen in amber at age 25.

        14. Emily, the original

          Karl R,
          Is there anything preventing you from messaging dozens, hundreds or thousands of hot 25 year olds?
          Yes. I don’t have that disease! 🙂   I’m not interested in men that much younger than I am.
          For 45 year old women contacting 25 year old men, there is a  61%  reply rate, as compared to a  40%  reply rate when those women are contacting 45 year old men.
          Yeah, they’re probably down for sex if the women are ok with.
          Maybe the ridiculous people are the ones who refuse to  try.
          I’ll be sure to get that emblazoned on a T-shirt! Not being able to date people have my age is not keeping me up nights.

        15. Karl R

          Emily, the original said:

          “I’m not interested in men that much younger than I am.”

          “Not being able to date people have my age is not keeping me up nights.”

          If you don’t want to date someone that much younger (or older) than you, then don’t.   Nobody is forcing you.

          But it “irks” you “about the larger societal response  … that   an older woman messaging a younger man is considered laughable and ill-advised”.   But while you’ve been busy getting pissed off at society considering it laughable and ill advised, you overlooked one little detail.   The two people who called dating much younger men “ridiculous”you and Blondie99.

          Does your anger towards the societal response (and your mocking of those women) strike you as being a bit hypocritical?

           

          People who make the first move (of any kind, online or real world) create more opportunities for themselves.   People who date broader age ranges (both younger -and- older) create more opportunities for themselves.

          I created a lot of opportunities for myself.   I didn’t worry about societal response.   I didn’t worry about the opinions of the women who weren’t interested.   I didn’t worry “leagues” or about Tom10’s “dating dynamics” (since those change from one individual to the next).

           

          Blondie99 said:

          “I also think that women are more realistic.   I am reminded of a cartoon I saw with a woman who is super skinny looking in the mirror and seeing an overweight person and a man who is flabbier than ever looking in that same mirror seeing a perfect 10.”

          That’s your idea of women being more realistic?   The man and the woman in the cartoon are equally unrealistic.

           

          Being realistic:

          Based on my experiences, I’ve estimated that around 5% to 10% of women find me attractive.   Some of those women are ones that I also find quite attractive.   Therefore, the realistic strategy was to find relationships where there was mutual attraction … and gracefully accept the response (or lack thereof) from the other 90% to 95%.

        16. Emily, the original

          Karl R,
          an older woman messaging a younger man is considered laughable and ill-advised”.   But while  you’ve  been busy getting pissed off at  society  considering it laughable and ill advised, you overlooked one little detail.   The two people who called dating much younger men  “ridiculous”  …  you  and  Blondie99.
          I’m wondering if you pop in every now and then to correct other people.
          Does your anger towards the societal response (and your mocking of those women) strike  you  as being a bit hypocritical?
          We all want more power in the battle of the sexes, don’t we? Would I love to live as Cleopatra, sitting on my throne and fending off all the suitors until Richard Burton, a man many women described as hypnotic, shows up and directs all his attention at me? Of course! Would I have young male subjects bringing me drinks with umbrellas in them, while they wore impossibly short shorts? Yes! But it doesn’t work that way, does it? We all work with what we’ve got and who is available to us.

        17. Tom10

          Emily, the Original wrote:
          “Yeah, everybody thinks they are the exception to the rule, but most of us aren’t.
          I wouldn’t want to date someone more than about   5 or so years older. As I’ve aged, the men I find appealing have aged with me. Their image hasn’t stayed frozen in amber at age 25.”
            
          Ideally I reckon most of us wouldn’t want to date someone older at all.
            
          There’s a word for people who don’t compromise somewhere though Emily. What is it again?
            
          Single!
            
          I think very very few people actually want to date much older, however, some people find it an acceptable area to compromise, therefore, managing to obtain many other qualities they’d like in a partner.
            
          @ Karl R
          “People who make the first move (of any kind, online or real world) create more opportunities for themselves.   People who date broader age ranges (both younger  -and-  older) create more opportunities for themselves.
          I created a lot of opportunities for myself.   I didn’t worry about societal response.   I didn’t worry about the opinions of the women who  weren’t  interested.   I didn’t worry  “leagues”  or about  Tom10’s  “dating dynamics”  (since those change from one individual to the next).”
            
          I think one whole aspect of dating that you haven’t acknowledged here is managing risk/ burnout/ego/rejection etc.
            
          You seem to be able to handle rejection quite well.
            
          Many others aren’t so lucky. They take it really badly. It can hurt them. A lot.
            
          Multiple rejections can begin to eat at someone’s core, nibble away at their self-esteem. Their confidence drops and they drop out of dating. In extreme cases their mental health will begin to suffer.
            
          For you there is no cost to sending an email and receiving no response. For others the cost is the risk of pain and ego deflation.
            
          For those people it’s unwise to email those unlikely to respond (there’s no other way to write this other than those that out of their league), and wiser to email those more likely to respond.
            
          That’s why attractive women almost never email first even if it might lead to them meeting higher-quality men: they’d rather preserve their ego/confidence and choose from the men  who contact  them, than risk the pain rejection by contacting higher-quality men themselves.

        18. blondie99

          @karlr what I think you are missing here is that I am commenting based on my own personal experiences.   There is no wrong or right. You are commenting based on yours and so are others.    I can respect that you had different experiences than I did and than others did, but that does not make you wrong .   I find it odd that you are so strongly trying to say “I am wrong.”    I have never said that you are, and I don’t think that, just that my experience has been different.   It does seem as Emily states that you are angry and bitter about something and bent on taking it out on others that disagree with you.   Or maybe something we are saying sets off something or you personally, I   do not know.

          I do not contradict my argument.   I never said that there are not some couples that most people would perceive as a mismatch, there are.      All I said that those cases are in the minority and more likely to happen in the real world than in online dating.   How is that a contradiction?   What it does though when people see that is often give them false hope.   It’s like saying could I win the lottery some day, sure I could, but it’s not very realistic.   People that look for people out of their league say, I must win the lottery because other people have, and if I do not, I will be angry and bitter and never be happy.    It’s like women who want men like those in Hallmark movies, is that going to happen, VERY unlikely, but dreaming and reality are two different things.   THe problem is when you let unrealistic dreaming blur the line with reality.

          What do you have to lose in emailing men or women that are way out of your league?    Your ego, your self esteem and your time.   If these do not matter to you one way or the other, then go for it.      Just understand that by you sending emails to women that clearly have no interest in you meaning   a 25 year old woman   whose profile states they want a college educated man, who is between the ages of 23-30, over 6 feet, who enjoys sports and works out daily and is looking for the same, ad you are 40, with no degree, who hates sports and message her you are not going to get a response.    Since you don’t like my league reference, let’s use this.    She has specific criteria that she is looking for and the man totally ignores it. Men who read a profile and just think she’s hot and message her clog her inbox and frustrate her to no end.   And sure maybe there’s a 1% chance she responds, but don’t get angry and bitter when she does not. Most men do get angry and bitter, and that is known because of the nasty messages they repeatedly send.   I don’t say that as a fact i every case, I say that as exactly what happened to me on a repeated basis.

          If you met some women you indicate are “out of your league” online then I stand corrected, my apologies.    But in my opinion you are in the minority.    And what happens is other men think well if he can do it I can.    Then when they spend hours sending emails and get no response they say, wait if he can do it why can’t I and become angry and bitter because many women don’t even take the time to read his email, they look at his picture and say “next.”

           

          My comment on the different reactions to looking in the mirror by sexes does show both people are inaccurately perceiving their looks.   That being said when you under perceive your looks you are more realistic about the men you go after.    In online dating, again which primarily relies on looks, you could be an 8 in real life and a 5 in online dating.    My point is not that people are their numbers or their looks.   My point is that in online dating that is what it boils down to.    Knowing this can help people who do not have online dating experience navigate things better.   If you treat online dating like it’s regular dating you will be unlikely to succeed. I will say this could also depend on your age range.   I know some people in their 50s that do online dating in smaller towns.   Because the pool of people is smaller due to age and location, many people do act differently, but otherwise it’s just not even close to real life.

           

          I do not know a specific man would not approach   a specific woman in public.   However, what I do know again based on my personal experiences is that most men tell me that they would not.   They say that the men that approach super attractive women in public are arrogant jerks, who are indeed extremely attractive or men that have nothing to lose.   Sure there are some average guys that fall in between the two, but they are rare.    This has also been my personal experience.

          And when men send a follow up email, at least when they did to me, they clearly remembered that I had not responded to them, so it was “memorable.”   How do I know that?   Because their emails always said I message you several times already, or I messaged you on ___ date, why have you not responded.   So I disagree that non responses are not memorable.   And I have no problem in theory of men that maybe send a second follow up kind email.   What I do have a problem with is the nasty emails, and the badgering, that’s not okay.   If you read the comments on this and even some of EMK’s post this is what happens to many many women.   The men become bitter and angry and verbally abuse the women who don’t respond.    This turns a woman off and again makes it worse for the other men, who she may have responded to, because she just gets off online dating all together.

          So online dating is a lot different than in person dating.   Yes online dating does rely on looks a lot more than in person dating and it can be brutal. If you want to be successful you have to change your strategy online.   If a man is getting no responses then maybe he should reevaluate the women that he is sending emails to.   Maybe he should ask a female friend who also does online dating to look at his profile and the women he is messaging and be honest with them about how they think they should change things to get better responses.      And vice versa for women not getting responses. Most men and women do have egos, and repeatedly being rejected causes many to become angry and bitter.   If your goal is to actually get a response, why not send emails to people that you will actually get a response from?    and every person has a different unique experience that forms their opinions.   That does not mean that their experiences are wrong, just that they are different that others.      With my experience you can chose to ignore it if you want, other men and women may say hey that’s what I experienced as well, it’s not just me.   What I will say is when i did online dating, I often would show my male friends my inbox and they were flabbergasted.   They had no idea that women received so many emails, and how nasty and sexual men were.   They also had no idea how many men just simply did not read my profile.   Seeing it from the otherwise helped them understand why they were not getting responses.

        19. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          I think very very few people actually  want  to date much older, however, some people find it an acceptable area to compromise, therefore, managing to obtain many other qualities they’d like in a partner.

          Yeah, like money.   🙂

          5 or 10 years either younger or older isn’t bad, but I think most people want to stay in that window.

        20. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          That’s why attractive women almost never email first even if it might lead to them meeting higher-quality men: they’d rather preserve their ego/confidence and choose from the men  who contact  them, than risk the pain rejection by contacting higher-quality men themselves.

          Possibly, but some women will not make the first move, regardless of their interest.

        21. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original
          “Yeah, like money.”
            
          Yep some compromise in exchange for money. Nothing wrong with that.
            
          Others exchange age-preference for commitment/intelligence/status/visa…haha.
            
          To each  their  own eh?
            
          “5 or 10 years either younger or older isn’t bad, but I think most people want to stay in that window.”
            
          I’d say many people would prefer to play out of that window if they could…but they can’t. Those who can, do.
            
          In general though, I agree that most people prefer a range give or take a few years of our own age.

        22. Blondie99

          @tom10, @emily, the reason I did not email men was not to preserve my ego, it was because I was already receiving so many emails, I did not have time and did not want anymore!   On occassion if someone would catch my eye in the matches they emailed me I would shoot an email off to a guy, but that was rare and even rarer for me to search.   My entire day was spent weeding through emails!     I think that is why many women don’t email men.   Nothing to do with ego.

        23. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          Others exchange age-preference for commitment/intelligence/status/visa…haha.  What?! Oh, no no. It’s looks or money. You and I both know those are the only commodities that mean anything in the dating market.   🙂  I’d say many people would prefer to play  out  of that window if they could…but they can’t. Those who can, do.

          Statistically, most people marry, even for the second time, someone close to their age.

        24. Tom10

          @ Blondie
          “the reason I did not email men was not to preserve my ego…  I think that is why many women don’t email men.   Nothing to do with ego”.
            
          And in your comment immediately prior, you wrote:
            
          “And vice versa for women not getting responses. Most men and women do have egos, and repeatedly being rejected causes many to become angry and bitter.   If your goal is to actually get a response, why not send emails to people that you will actually get a response from?”
            
          I’ve no doubt you received thousands of emails Blondie, however, equally, I’ve no doubt that you had no interest in the vast majority of your online suitors and could quickly skim over and ignore their messages.
            
          I get it though; why take a risk when there’s no need to?

        25. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          I get it though; why take a risk when there’s no need to?

          How much of a risk is it if you are messaging a stranger? I’m not meaning that sarcastically, although I think everyone can agree that approaching someone irl is taking more of a risk.   I read your response to Karl R about rejection, and I agree that it varies how much a person is affected by rejection. I don’t know how it works. How many women are you contacting per week? What I’m asking is — How much rejection do you feel from not hearing back from any one woman in particular? All the women are strangers online. It’s different, of course, if you aren’t getting a response from any women you are messaging, but if a decent number respond (and you found that attractive in that you initiated the contact) …

      3. 97.1.3
        Blondie99

        @tom10 initially I did take the time to look at every persons profile.   But it was very time consuming. And match allowed people to see if you viewed their profile and so I would then prompt follow up messages of hey you viewed me, did you not like what you saw? So so many of these so I was cautious about it.   Truly for me the reason I did not send emails had nothing to do with fear of rejection. I said men and women feel rejected and may get angry and bitter but I never said I personally did.   Even when I began to weed through more quickly I tried to really pick men to go on dates with that I thought would click with me while still meeting more than just a few men.   I Have a hard time juggling men and I wanted to give each date a chance to get to know them.   If I for whatever reason had a situation where no one at all that I considered dateable contacted me then I suppose I would have done searches and emailed other men but that did not happen.   1000s of emails or not if only 5% are men I would consider that’s still a lot of men to go on dates with and get to know. So why would I look for more?    As Evan says date the people who want to date you. And yes there were a small percentage that I would consider. But that was generally   because they were way outside of my search parameters or sent nasty messages soliciting sex or ranting anger at me. Were there some men I totally dismissed based on looks, sure there were but that was not the majority. I suppose some women do not email men fearing rejection but I can’t speak to that because I can’t recall experiencing much   rejection online. In real life sure but I don’t recall ever sending an email that was not responded to. Of course again I did not send the first email a lot but for me to not contact men online out of fear of rejection would for me mean I would have had to experience it.   I never once thought let me not send an email because I might get rejected. If I wanted to send One I just did and if he did not respond to me oh well there are plenty more people to pick from which leads me to what Emily asked .

        @emily I do not know how or why people become resentful and angry over people they don’t know rejecting them or not responding. There are two things I can surmise . I think with many men they do just get rejected so much it finally gets to them.   I got a lot of “what does it take to get someone to respond on here?” I was called nasty names you name it.   I also think some men and women not used to online dating invest too much in people they don’t know. So it’s not just about volume rejection. It’s about people who have set their minds on a profile and have already planned a wedding and kids. So that rejection may hurt more.   To me I would think you don’t even know that’s a real person or picture ? Don’t invest so much! I also found that a lot of the men I interacted with were socially awkward and had low self esteem.   This played out more when you met them in person and they were extremely nervous, unable to hold conversations and just overall awkward. I heard from men that many women were like that too. They likely struggled with dating overall. So if you have low self esteem already you tend to be hurt more by rejection. That’s just my theory. I’m not sure you could ever get a guy who sends the nasty grams to admit it or say why.

        1. Emily, the original

          Blondie99,

          To me I would think you don’t even know that’s a real person or picture ? Don’t invest so much!  

          That’s what I was thinking. Now, if you’ve met up and the person says no to another date, then, yes, that would sting.

  18. 98
    John

    The men blaming is, once again, on the rise!
      
    There’s nothing more misleading than saying both genders have it equally difficult. But its simply not true.   Women have way more options than men, and yes, even ugly women do.
    There are many sites that give women special features that arent available for men. For example, POF gives women the button that easily sends a ” Hi, Im interested ” email.
    The online dating will be a easier if women put equal effort into finding their mates. most of them arent even cilivized enough to send ” thanks, no thanks” email.
      

    1. 98.1
      disgusted

      I agree. It is sad fact of life that many dating sites are heavily biased against men in favour of women. I came across many sites whose services are free to women but men had to pay hefty subscription charges.

    2. 98.2
      Karmic Equation

      When I was online dating, I sent nice 3 sentence “thanks, but no thanks” to men to whom I wasn’t attracted who took the time to write more than one sentence. Simple “Hi’s” from unattractive me were deleted without a reply.
        
      I believe in another thread, a few of the women said they did the same thing. And one woman, Henriette, even went so far as to say an unattractive man’s opening email was so good, she gave him a chance, fell in love with him, but alas the relationship didn’t last because he had to move out of state.
        
      There’s a fine line between writing too little and writing too much. You have to find where that line is.
        
      Women are as visual as men, so your online pictures have to look good to get a woman’s attention. Wear a suit instead of baseball cap and jeans.
        
      Also, most men who rate themselves as “average” are on the ugly side. I had a friend describe himself as an “average looking” guy, and I didn’t tell him I thought he was below average. But he’s tall, and he’s a doctor, and has an over abundance of confidence 🙂 So he didn’t lack for dates when he was online dating.
        
      Truth of the matter is, if you’re not a good looking man, then you do need to make good money. Because money IS the equalizer for men-without-looks. So men DO have it easier, because if a woman DOESN’T have the looks to attract a man, she doesn’t have ANY equalizers to get her foot in the door.
        
      It’s sad, but I’ve seen pix of overweight women pretty much marketing themselves for sex in online dating. They want to get dates so bad, they cheapen themselves. And I’m sure the men asking for dates are only going for the easy scores. But the women don’t realize that’s what’s going on, they think, “Ooohh, he thinks I’m attractive” and that she has a chance at a relationship with that good looking guy she has a date with. So she has sex with him on a first date. He might go back for seconds or thirds. But once she says “relationship” he’s gone.
        
      I know a guy friend who does this. To his due, he does find overweight women attractive. But he’s not interested in relationships with anyone at the moment. He’s not forthcoming about that, though. I don’t agree with his approach. However, if a woman is old enough to date, then she should be smart enough to only put out for the right reasons. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a woman acting on her attraction on a first date. But I think she’s nuts to think a relationship will result because of that. Unfortunately, for women who don’t have options, that’s what they do to themselves. It’s sad.

      1. 98.2.1
        johnny doe

        you are so, so wrong. I’m a below average looking attorney, no debt, good income for my age. Online dating is a nightmare.   Clever messages, even women complimenting the messages 1 out of 100, but none are good enough to meet up for a date.   Because I have never messaged any girl with any thing crude, I am very interested to see the percentage of messages in a women’s inbox that are personalized, well-crafted, and do NOT get a response.   I hear alot about crude messages, but I’ve sent well over 200 personalized message, and maybe two replies, some were rude as shit.

        1. Z

          I have the same experience as you. i didnt count how many messages i send until i got a reply. the opinions about me are very mixed as i encountered in the past especialy on the look part. some said i was ugly some found me hot as fuck and i myself say i am average because of that. there are different opinions but after reading through profile after profile carefully finding barely effort of women in their profiles so you have no exact starting point that you can write anything interesting but still try to be as creative as possibe i can safly say it doesnt matter what you do. sending about i dont know 50 messages a day? i’m lucky if i get a response after the 300th message or something like that. might rise the question if theres something wrong with the way i write which is a fair point if questioned that as well and countless times changed the way i approach it and still the same outcome. short messages. long ones, creative ones, personalized whatever you threw at them getting a response at all was a very lucky thing.

           

        2. Jojo

          There is good and a bad with dating sites. I have tried them more few times. Some people just want hook up,play field or etc. Now I’m just so done with dating sites. Because 45 year woman who don’t need play games teenager

    3. 98.3
      Same old song

      “There is nothing more misleading than saying both genders have it equally difficult.”

      You are so right.

      77 cents on the dollar, higher threat of domestic violence and sexual assault, doing most or all of the childcare and housework while working full time, and being sexually objectified and told we are useless after 35.

      Wanna trade?

      Didn’t think so.

      1. 98.3.1
        Buck25

        SoS,

        Bitter much? Methinks your man-hating is showing. Don’t worry dear, online dating is a great place to pay ’em back (or so the theory goes). Just ignore us while the email validation rolls in, and dream of the guys who’ll never commit to you, all while cloaked in the anonymity of the internet, and without ever leaving your keyboard. Good luck with that. I read something like your post, and it makes me glad for some of the responses I never get. I’lll take the few I do get from those women who actually like men.

    4. 98.4
      SparklingEmerald

      When I was in OLD, I intially sent out polite “Thanks, but no thanks” notes, but I got angry, threatening, rapey responses, so I just started ignoring responses if I wasn’t interested.   I realize that sucks for men who would NOT have responded back so rudely.   I also would get aggressive follow up e-mails within hours of the first e-mail, sometime during work hours.   Sometimes I would write back to those guys that they need to chill and give a girl a chance to respond, especially when their messages   are sent during hours when most people are sleeping or working.   One man did apologise for sending me an aggressive “Why aren’t you answering me ?” e-mail two hours after he sent the first one.   Then he explained that he was just so frustrated with the process, and I sent him a note back saying I understand his frustration and wished him luck.

      I do know a man who had experienced some flakiness with online dating.   He switched dating sites and the first gal he messaged, messaged him right back.   They enjoyed a very fun back and forth e-mail exchange and met for coffee.   That coffee date turned into a day of appetizers, wine, a movie and a second date, and another date after that . . . Fast foward to know, and he just recently celebrated a one year wedding anniversary with his beloved wife.   I couldn’t be happier for him, because that man is my husband !   There were times when we BOTH wanted to give up on finding love at “our age”   (I am in my 60’s, he is in his 70s’) I’m so glad we both hung in there, despite the overwhelming amount of flakey, unsuitable people we had to wade through.

  19. 99
    twinkle

    I agree women have it easier online.

    I had left my profile up for months, -without- any photos; I was contacted by some guys occasionally but not a ton. I didn’t mind as I only had time to date 1 guy anyway, who I’m still seeing.

    Well yesterday I decided to temporarily upload 3 photos to the website because a guy who’d emailed me requested I send pics to his handphone but I didn’t know how.

    Lol within like a minute responses started coming in, and within a day I’d probably received more messages than I had in the preceding months. And I’m not super-pretty. Now I’m trying to decide if I should leave the photos up. Feel a little shy about this.

    Thanks for the suggestion on getting pro photos in natural locations–I’m thinking of getting nice photos taken but only sending them to guys I’m already interested in. Plus it’s nice to have some specially-taken photos of yourself for future memories.

    I guess it’s true that guys are visual and lazy about reading profiles. I had written on my profile that I was considered pretty and pls email if u want photos, but the response was nowhere close to when I actually uploaded photos. o_O

      

  20. 100
    twinkle

    By the way, I wish people would STOP putting up fake profiles, I’ve read here of quite a few people doing this! Whether to run little experiments, or check if the men/women they’re dating are still looking around. I think it’s a rather silly unfair thing to do. Sheesh.

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