The End of Friends With Benefits

303 Shares

I’ve written a bunch on hook-up culture (here, here and here to start).

Each post receives a lot of play  in the comments below (82, 105 and 118 comments to be precise.) Because every time I write about this, it’s some version of the same thing:

I was an active participant in hook-up culture for nearly 20 years.

I never judged women who did the exact same things as I did.

Numerous studies show that women (on the whole) don’t enjoy hookup culture as much as men, but yet they still participate in it.

They participate in it because they’re trying extremely hard to convince themselves that they do enjoy it. Or they participate because they feel they don’t have a choice. If this is what all the most desirable men want, maybe it’s just the cost of doing business.

This dissonance is what causes women so much pain and frustration – blaming men for having low standards for sex, instead of understanding that this is common and that the only person responsible for who you hop into bed with is you.

When I point these observations out, a conversation breaks out about slut-shaming and double-standards, when, in fact, the studies are merely reflective of women’s opinions on hook-up culture. Too often, women (my clients!)  feel used, undervalued and discarded by men – mostly because they tend to associate sex with feelings, while many men will  sleep with virtually anybody regardless of emotions or long-term intentions.

This dissonance is what causes women  so much pain and frustration – blaming men for having low standards for sex, instead of understanding that this is common and that the only person responsible for who you hop into bed with is you.

Enter this piece by Leah Fessler in Quartz.

This paragraph powerfully sums up the internal ambivalence of the sexually liberated woman who has been forced to come to terms with the fact that she doesn’t like hookup culture:

“While there was a major gulf between my public self and my private one, the one thing that remained consistent were my politics. I told myself that I was a feminist, despite subjecting myself to unfulfilling, emotionally damaging sexual experiences. And I believed it, too.”

Fessler continues:

“It wasn’t just the social pressure that drove me to buy into the commitment-free hookup lifestyle, but my own identity as a feminist…The idea that sexual liberation is fundamental to female agency dominates progressive media. True feminists, I believed, not only wanted but also thrived on emotionless, non-committal sexual engagements…

While various academic studies tout the damaging effects of hookup culture, I came across them much more infrequently. Besides, the alternative seemed to me to be abstinence–an equally unfulfilling option. I decided it was time to ditch my antiquated desire for monogamy. As Taylor’s article suggested, I would “play the game, too.”

So she did. As do so many women who remain momentarily sexually gratified but feeling hollow inside – almost against their own wills. This isn’t a “conservative” position. This isn’t a 1950’s position. This is what studies show and women have continually told me.

This is what Fessler studied in her senior thesis.

“After interviewing 75 male and female students and analyzing over 300 online surveys, the solidarity was undeniable: 100% of female interviewees and three-quarters of female survey respondents stated a clear preference for committed relationships. (My research focus was on the experiences of heterosexual women, although of course many non-heterosexual relationships happen at Middlebury as well.) Only 8% of about 25 female respondents who said they were presently in pseudo-relationships reported being “happy” with their situation.

The women I interviewed were eager to build connections, intimacy and trust with their sexual partners. Instead, almost all of them found themselves going along with hookups that induced overwhelming self-doubt, emotional instability and loneliness.”

This all-too-common experience is why I have a job, for better or worse. It’s also why I’m going to articulate how you can still partake in physical activity  without getting as hurt:

Stop sleeping with men who aren’t your boyfriend.  

Simply put: if he doesn’t respect your boundaries (that you won’t have sex without commitment) and he doesn’t step up to become your boyfriend (after around six weeks of foreplay), you cut him loose and move on.

No, it’s not a perfect solution, but it’s a good work-around for women who want to fool around without getting  too attached. Simply put: if he doesn’t respect your boundaries (that you won’t have sex without commitment) and he doesn’t step up to become your boyfriend (after around six weeks of foreplay), you cut him loose and move on.

This is not the only way to handle sex, obviously. If you like hookup culture, I am not attacking you in any way. This post is specifically for women who are sick of feeling used by men and are trying to figure out how to date, have fun, and not get their hearts broken.

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

Join our conversation (298 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 21
    Stacy2

    The problem with this whole thing, I think, is that you may still be having “casual sex” under the guise of a “relationship”. The “boyfriend” title in itself is quite meaningless. He can call himself your boyfriend today and break up with you in a week. How is it going to be that much different from casual sex? Because you called yourself boyfriend/girlfriend for a couple of months? To avoid this conundrum we, as women, should look for guys whose “light is on”. Hate to quote SATC here but it’s true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRNX9HwneeU

    I have seen this play out so many times in life. A guy whose light is on will give out totally different vibe vs. the one that is simply cruising. The cruising guy is still “figuring things out”. His ambivalence will come through in many ways. It will be clear that he just doesn’t know what he wants in life and in a relationship.  And the mere fact that he is willing to wear a “boyfriend” title for a month means nothing. Just a waste of time and self respect.

     

    1. 21.1
      R.

      I think in those situations . . . the emotional/mental/spiritual connection isn’t as strong as one may have thought.   When it is a real relationship, neither person will be able to walk away so easily.   They will want to work on whatever issues come up as issues inevitably do in relationships.

      The men that can break up with just like that never had the right intentions to begin with.

  2. 22
    John

    Stacy2

    You are describing serial monogamy. You are right that it “feels” like a serious commitment, but it’s not. It’s a great way for a person to fool themselves. I have a female friend who won’t do casual sex, but has a new boyfriend every three months. Casual sex/serial monogamy is like eating a Big Mac. Sex with real love is like eating Filet Mignon. I totally agree with you Stacy2.

  3. 23
    Lisa

    The best way to get through to women is to tell them it’s a physical thing, oxytocin.   It causes you to bond to men you have sex with, men don’t have that.   Can a woman hook up once with a man and have no feelings sure but on a regular basis no way and any woman telling herself she can is lying and In for hear break.   But we women think we should be able to as we are mens equals and we are except   physically we are still different.   Women giving up sex too easy is keeping women out of relationships or maybe better put women giving up sex without commitment.   I know this is unpopular nit its true.   10 years ago the women who gave up sex so easily were seen as slutty or desperate and although men may have had sex with them they did mot want relationships with them.   Nowadays though the majority of women sleep with men early on with no commitment and they are not seen as sluts.   Men have 100s of choices and 98 of those women are going to give it up by date three committment or not. If you are one of the two other women you will never get past date three because the man will find another women who gives it up.   He knows he can.   A pretty successful intelligent woman.   See In order to get a relationship you have to have casual sex or you won’t have a shot in heck of meeting anyone.   Are there flukes sure but it’s rare.    So you have sex hope for the best and usually end up hurt but what’s a woman to do!

    1. 23.1
      Tom10

      @ Lisa #23
      “Women giving up sex too easy is keeping women out of relationships or maybe better put women giving up sex without commitment. I know this is unpopular nit its true.”
        
      I’ve seen this sentiment a lot here  and across the internet in general, and at first glance  your point  makes logical sense; if guys can have sex with no investment, women who want relationships no longer have any leverage to encourage guys into relationships.  So if there’s no sex forthcoming the guy will simply move along to the next woman.
        
      However, when I flipped the analogy using a (very) simplistic “men mostly want casual sex “and “women mostly want relationships” parametric framework; one would expect that the guys who only want casual sex would be equally annoyed/frustrated with all the guys who are in relationships. I mean if all guys refused to enter relationships so easily then women would then simply have more casual sex, right?
        
      But I’ve never actually observed this sentiment here or elsewhere. So why doesn’t the inverse dynamic hold true? Why do women blame other women (the ones who have sex without commitment) for men not wanting committed relationships nowadays, whereas men don’t similarly blame other men (the ones in relationships) for women not having more casual sex; in fact, they often blame women for this too!
        
      Although it’s an interesting phenomenon I’m not sure if investigating the reasons for this double-standard will be of any practical use; what’s more useful is to identify which attitude is more effective, analyse one’s own perspective, and then adjust it if necessary.
        
      So if I’m looking for casual sex why don’t I blame the guys in relationships for a dearth of women available for casual sex? Because even if all those guys suddenly became single, it’s unlikely that all the resultant single women will suddenly start having lots of casual sex. One major reason being, that those women don’t actually *want *casual sex.
        
      Similarly, when women looking for relationships lay the blame for the dearth of relationship-minded men on other women, they are missing the point, as those casual-sex seeking guys mightn’t have  be relationship material anyway. One major reason being, that they mightn’t actually *want* a relationship.
        
      Therefore, the more effective perspective is to stop blaming the behavior of others, accept that some guys want committed relationships (as evidenced by guys in committed relationships all over the world) and some guys just want casual sex. So if you want a relationship all you have to do is identify which guys want casual sex and which guys are open to relationships and then choose the latter. It actually seems quite simple!

      1. 23.1.1
        R.

        Unfortunately – just because one guy wants a committed relationship does not automatically equate that the woman and he will actually “mesh” in a relationship.   Personality, values, perspectives, interests, etc.

        I am in a situation where I am talking to two men.   The man I have more in common in with is the one who is pushing for casual sex.   I am not going to settle, though.   It’s just a disappointing conundrum.

        But, I do agree with you that people can’t blame the behavior of others.   I think it is more complex than what you suggest, though.   I think people fall into the trap (as I have) of feelings of inadequacy, not being good enough, when that one person with whom you think you could have a loving and deeper relationship does not feel the same way.   Hopefully, from reading these encouraging comments, more of us will get over that.

        1. Tom10

           
          @ R. #23.1.1
           
          Thanks for your response.
           
            
           
          Yes you’re correct; these issues are more complex than I suggested, as can be testified by the sheer volume of blogs, magazines, websites, novels, poems etc. dedicated to exploring these themes.
           
            
           
          “I am in a situation where I am talking to two men.   The man I have more in common in with is the one who is pushing for casual sex.   I am not going to settle, though.   It’s just a disappointing conundrum.”
           
            
           
          I think I understand the dynamic (conundrum) here but I’d be interested to hear a bit more from you if you don’t mind.
           
            
           
          When you say that you have “more in common” with the guy pushing for casual sex, what do you mean exactly? What do you have in common that’s making you even consider him as relationship material? If he’s pushing for casual sex whereas you want a relationship surely you don’t have much common? What is it about him  that makes you reluctant to cut him off?
           
            
           
          “I think people fall into the trap (as I have) of feelings of inadequacy, not being good enough, when that one person with whom you think you could have a loving and deeper relationship does not feel the same way.”
           
            
           
          Why do feel you could have a “loving and deeper relationship” with a guy who has indicated that he doesn’t feel the same way and is pushing for uncommitted sex? Surely his behavior is indicating that you *couldn’t* have a loving a deeper relationship with him?
           
            
           
          I suppose my overall point is that one of the biggest dating mistakes I often see people make is spending time with those whose goals/intentions don’t match our own. See Kyra (#18.3.1) above; she spent 11 years of her life with a guy who never even wanted a girlfriend or to get married from the very start. I see this situation all the time.
           
            
           
          Therefore, if women want a serious ltr, spending any amount of time with a guy who doesn’t want the same is a grave mistake.
           

        2. Caroline

          I can absolutely see how feelings of inadequacy would come into this. I hate being harsh but in general, wouldn’t you think a good few people tend to claim situations are out of their hands/lay fault on external circumstances or others?

      2. 23.1.2
        Jess

        Actually, men who have trouble getting casual sex AND relationships do in fact blame other men ( and the women as well). Men who are getting what they want have no reason to blame anyone.

    2. 23.2
      Kyra

      Amen to TomR’s comment. It took me a decade to understand that you may have off the charts chemistry with someone. You may love the same bands and music. You may finish each other’s sentences. You may enjoy one another’s company so much you sit right next to one another 5-out-of-7 days of the week. You may have similar family history. You may have the same speech or writing patterns. You may make the same jokes. You may have the same religious, spiritual or political beliefs. You may compliment one another in ways that are downright astounding and comfortable. You may be the best friends and best lovers in the world.  But, if one of you wants to be married and the other doesn’t, walk away ASAP.

      I had to grow and understand chemistry is wonderful, but compatibility and life goals is what creates relationships. And, the sad thing is, we may not always have amazing chemistry with those who are compatible for us.

  4. 24
    Ruth

    I wanted to add a final note after reading some more ideas. Where I’m coming from is that I personally feel that no human being should be used and discarded as a part of hookup culture and that it creates a sense of objectification of bodies rather than intimacy. My own few experiences left me feeling hurt and vulnerable and unsure whether I could trust men because I was very naiive a few years back when I entered the dating world after long term relationships. I was burned and I even felt less connection with my own body because I knew that I had been naiive, I felt perhaps I had trusted too much, I questioned my intuition and protection capacities. I worry that sites like Tinder devalue people, that all the values of love, intimacy and courtship are wasted away in the midst of a growing culture that diminishes the values of patience and cherishing the beauty of each human soul. Yes, I’m a die-hard romantic with old-fashioned values who has struggled with modern culture.

    On the other hand, when I read some women’s comments who say that they enjoy this culture and that perhaps they are finding a meaningful connection in the midst of it, the side of me that values inclusiveness and freedom kicks in and I realise that I can’t be ‘against’ the culture as such, even though it worries me on many levels, but I can only use this to know myself more fully and not subject myself to this culture. Gracefully back out and stick to the values that I want. Choose with my own body.

    I like how the journey of love and expressing ideas always helps us to empower ourselves and learn what it is that we want. In the midst of cultural trends I have sometimes worried that I would not find the gentleman that I want to be with. But for some strange reason, reading about hookup culture and becoming stronger in myself and in reclaiming my body through tantric practices, I believe that he is out there, just as I am here. Because I’m clearer about what I want and do not want and I can see things more clearly-the men I need to stay clear of vs. those who I can open my heart to because they are treating me well. In fact, I’m starting to feel that this hookup culture is making the polarity clearer…as these hookup guys won’t invest with you-when you don’t offer sex straight away, they weed themselves out.

    The gentlemen of the world are easier to spot now thanks to hookup culture : ) This realisation has been inspiring! We really are empowered through our own choices, not by following or believing in cultural norms. We can always do what’s right for our own bodies and choose from the heart. Everyone else can please themselves and be empowered in their choices.

    1. 24.1
      Lyra Ling

      I adore your post. Yes hookup culture does bring more clarity to this whole dating bonanza! Years ago where sex was still condemned men had to do “more” before they could get any type of hanky-panky. Nowadays, since it is so widely available, commitment becomes a novelty, rare item. However, this is a part of evolutionary process. It doesn’t always have to be either good or bad; it just is.

  5. 25
    R.

    @Tom10

    Just because someone (male or female) wants to engage in casual sex does not necessarily negate the rest of who they are.   Of course, it can speak volumes on one’s character and certain values.   But, I caution to demonize anyone for making certain choices in their own life as long as they are honest about their intentions and do no harm to others.   I myself had gotten out of an LTR and didn’t want to jump right into another LTR.   But, of course, I did miss the sex.   So, I did engage in sex with no commitment for awhile. However, I also had the other parts of my self such as my hobbies, interests, political and social views, etc.   – That is what I have in common with the guy pushing for casual sex. We share the same hobbies, interests, tastes in music, food, art.   We also share similar views on political and social issues.   We have similar backgrounds.   I respect what he does for a living.   He appreciates my own career background.   Both of our last LTRs were unhealthy relationships, and we chose very similar paths on how to learn from those experiences.   And, there are other facets of “connection”, too.   So, yes, admittedly, it is more difficult to let him go because of all that.   Whereas with the second guy, there are surface interests, but the same connection just isn’t there.   But, because he is looking for an LTR and willing to take things slow, I am giving it more of a chance than I normally would. And, talking to these men has made me realize (I was a little naive) how men will engage in casual sex with someone while actively pursuing an LTR.   Both men said their last LTRs was a few years ago – but, they haven’t been celibate for that long.   I get it – I can’t fault them for that. And, since there is discussion that it has become easier for men to engage in casual sex, because women have made it easier – well . . . that’s the way it goes.   I don’t think many men can be celibate for very long – as another poster said, they may put it under the guise of having a girlfriend, but it’s really serial monogamy.

    Ultimately, I do agree with you.   There is an obvious, fundamental misalignment between someone wanting casual sex and someone who wants an LTR.   And, it can be a grave mistake for someone to choose to engage in a casual situation when they want more. Unfortunately, I think some people might have to engage for them to realize that.   For my situation, I told the guy that we seem to have a good connection, but we are just not looking for the same things.   I offered to remain friends as I do have platonic, male friends.   In fact, I have been friends with a guy for years who I had sex with no commitment with.   At the time, neither of us wanted an LTR.   Now, he has a long-term gf most likely leading to marriage.   He has provided me a platonic friendship that other female friends have not been able to (they’re busy raising children, haha).   It is frustrating and heart wrenching to hear these stories about how men (and women) use and discard each other.   But, it’s not like that in every situation nor is every person who engages in casual sex a horrible human being.   Although, some of these Tinder stories just make me go, “Yeesh.”

    Because I’ve been on both sides, I choose not to devalue a whole person just because they are in that stage of consciousness (if it is a stage).   I try not to devalue people in general, haha.   I consciously choose to not see the way this particular guy is pushing for casual sex as a statement of my own self-worth. Whatever his reasons are for not “choosing” to seek an LTR with me are his own.   I will not let it bring up feelings of inadequacy or “not good enough” for me.   I choose love and kindness for myself and others, which can mean wishing the person well and walking away.

    1. 25.1
      Tom10

      @ R. #25
      Thanks for your considered response.
        
      “Just because someone (male or female) wants to engage in casual sex does not necessarily negate the rest of who they are.   Of course, it can speak volumes on one’s character and certain values.   But, I caution to demonize anyone for making certain choices in their own life as long as they are honest about their intentions and do no harm to others”
        
      Wholeheartedly agreed. Hey he’s a guy, of course he’s gonna try have sex if he can, haha. 🙂
        
      “Ultimately, I do agree with you.   There is an obvious, fundamental misalignment between someone wanting casual sex and someone who wants an LTR.   And, it can be a grave mistake for someone to choose to engage in a casual situation when they want more”
        
      So in principle we’re more or less agreed; unless one’s actual goals are aligned then the whole situation is pointless.
        
      Where we differ is how we behave once we have established that the other party has a different goal to our own. I tend to cut people off immediately once I’ve conclusively established that we’re want different things.
        
      The second biggest mistake (the first being the aforementioned misalignment of goals) I witness people make is hanging onto people/situations for years secretly hoping that the other party will one day have a change of heart and suddenly want what we want; it almost never happens, therefore one might as well cut it from the start.
        
      But either way, I hope it works out well for ya 😉

      1. 25.1.1
        R.

        Thanks, Tom10.

        Yeah – the whole sticking around for years is disheartening.   But, I suppose it is not so easy to walk away.   A friend of mine told me his gf “warned” if he didn’t propose within 2 years, she was going to leave him. . .I think they’re past their 3-year mark.   Maybe she got that advice from Evan’s blog!

        He claims that it’s his career (or the start of a new one) that is holding him back from proposing.   I know enough guys who feel that way.   I appreciate Evan’s blog.   But, sometimes – things aren’t so black and white.

      2. 25.1.2
        Sarak

         

         

        “Where we differ is how we behave once we have established that the other party has a different goal to our own. I tend to cut people off immediately once I’ve conclusively established that we’re want different things.”

         

        When does this happen though?   After you have had sex with that person several times, or after you have been fu–ing for a few months?   I laugh at your comment Tom.   I mean in reality this is where your comment falls short, because this is WHAT the men that are proponents of fwb are doing on a regular basis.   ” I knew she wasn’t for me, but she didn’t mention anything about a relationship until this point.”     Throw up.

         

        Yeah, I suppose that’s probably where some of your other comments fall also.   There are far too many situations that do not fit into the man telling the woman outright from the beginning that he wants a FWB.   Why would a woman think that that is what the man wanted when he is “actively dating” on a site????   Don’t you think that most people are going to think that is probably a man that is wanting to find a partner?   Sure you can say all day long, the woman should not have sex with someone unless he is a boyfriend (Evan said it better).   But since WHEN!!!!   is it not the man’s responsibility to outright say I do not like you like that, I do not want a relationship with you before sex, My mother is an overbearing —- and is going to decide who I end up with.   (Sorry some built up, but deserved feelings with that one.)   It is, Tom.   If he is a man, he can do these things, as well as realize that when he didn’t do any of them and hurt the woman’s feelings, it was only his fault, he needs to handle the mess from lying for so long.
        “Wholeheartedly agreed. Hey he’s a guy, of course he’s gonna try have sex if he can, haha.”

        But a man with an ounce of respect for a woman won’t do this.   I think Evan’s point was that you’d be hard pressed   to really find a woman who wanted the fwb that you think they might.   To those men, not necessarily you, GROW UP.   And, wear a badge that says I am ONLY interested in ffwb, in case you get desperate and forget to mention it.

  6. 26
    James

    “Numerous studies show that women (on the whole) don’t enjoy hookup culture as much as men…”

    Well, unless they discovered a way to read people’s minds, these studies can only show that women CLAIM not to enjoy it as much as men.     Which is not surprising, because other studies have shown that both men and women lie about sex in order to conform to expectations for their respective genders.    In other words, men boastfully embellish their escapades while women falsely under-report their sexual history:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/29/lying-about-sex-common-men-and-women_n_3353446.html

    “…but yet they still participate in it.”

    Yeah, imagine that.   It’s almost as if women might actually like it a little more than they are willing to admit.

    “They participate in it because they’re trying extremely hard to convince themselves that they do enjoy it.”

    Yes, I’m the same way.   I always try to avoid participating in activities that I love, whereas I’m CONSTANTLY participating in activities that I hate because I’m trying extremely hard to convince myself that I do in fact enjoy them   /sarc

    “Or they participate because they feel they don’t have a choice.”

    I just love these types of narratives which would have us believe that women only engage in naughty activity reluctantly because they are forced to do so against their will, or because they are making a dutiful and selfless sacrifice, or because they’re doing it only as a way to gain something else.   Call me crazy, but maybe, just maybe, could it be possible that women might actually enjoy naughty activity for its own sake, and participate in it willfully, happily, and eagerly?   Naw, couldn’t be.

    “If this is what all the most desirable men want, maybe it’s just the cost of doing business.”

    No, I don’t think most women would consider it a “cost” at all, but actually more like a windfall profit.

    1. 26.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      A long post claiming that you know the minds of women better than the women themselves. Got it.

      1. 26.1.1
        Callie

        Indeed. It seems despite his disbelief that they’ve discovered a way to read the minds of women he actually can.

  7. 27
    Nissa

    What is odd to me is the confusion people seem to have about people’s intentions when they are online dating. Isn’t it right there on everyone’s profile? I get that men might *ahem* overstate their interest in an LTR because HE is equivalently fine with an LTR with the right person or casual with women who don’t quite make the LTR cut.

    But when a woman states right in her profile “LTR/marriage”, why would a man  assume that either 1) she doesn’t know her own mind; 2) she won’t be able to resist his hotness in particular; 3) that she (a la James above) is “hiding her real intentions & desire to bone every available man but can’t say so due to conservative paranoia”; 4) he might be able to hide his intentions long enough to get her to sleep with him without his making any actual promises or 5) that the woman will disregard her own desires for a relationship to settle for casual sex? Why not just skip over that woman and go directly for a woman who has marked she’s willing to consider casual?

    Now, I get that some men don’t know what they want, and some women do settle for less than what they want, but I still find it odd that the process would start with the man assuming those as givens, rather than exceptions, especially for daters over 30. Again, I can see a man who is open to the idea of that women going on a date, then discovering that the woman doesn’t make the LTR cut. But I would then expect the man to never call that woman again, and that doesn’t appear to be what women are experiencing.

    All of which leads me to believe that the men are, in actuality, looking for an LTR, but taking several months to figure that out – at which time he claims ‘he was just looking for something casual’, because that allows him to keep sleeping with her without looking like he’s taking advantage of her fantasy that he’s still interested in a relationship with her.

    1. 27.1
      Sarak

      Sooo   Well said..

  8. 28
    Lyra Ling

    Hookup culture is fun. Sex is fun. I think about sex almost all the time. I enjoy flirting with hot men and I talk about men like they are decadent deserts. I take pride in my boudoir skills. I also want love and companionship. Romance. Growing old together and building a family. I am a nurturing and passionate partner and I am an avid believer of marriage despite the sky high divorce rates.

    In my experience, I often enjoyed the courtship phase more and “want” the completion; but rarely I “really, really want” it. Perhaps because I am a woman who wants strong and genuine connection prior to physical intercourse. Sometimes I just don’t think about it and I still had fun.  Somtimes I get hurt and whine for days after being ghosted post coital.

    I am still trying to figure this out and I tend  to follow Dr.Ali Binazir’s advice; have sex when you “really, really want to”. A lot of people (I am included) often engage in hook up rendezvouz for the wrong reasons, and most of the time we have deeper issues. I believe in working on those issues rather than obsessing whether that Bumble match is going to make your bedroom messy anytime soon or not. Life would be too boring if we don’t have spiritual awakening here and there.

  9. 29
    junie

    Hi Evan.   I totally get what you’re saying about only sleeping with guys who are your boyfriend.   But it is kind of a catch 22 – he probably isn’t going to become your boyfriend before you are intimate.   A sad but true fact.   Even you pointed out that a man is looking for sex and finds love – right?

    I am going to share a little situation which works for me.   I have lovers.   Yup.   They are gorgeous men (3 of them) with whom I share mutual respect but with whom I have no intention of sharing anything more than a physical relationship.   I have been seeing these men off and on (between relationships/boyfriends) for over 3 years.   We trust each other.   We respect each other.   We know where we stand with each other.   And we are friends.   Still.   After all this time.

    The point I would like to make is that women can play like men.   Its gratifying (and safe) to have the purely sexual relationships with these men.   AND – most important in my mind – it keeps me sane and keeps me from hopping into bed with the wrong man just because Im attracted to him and I am craving sex.

    Please don’t judge … this works for me.

  10. 30
    JustAGuy

    Evan,

    There is a lot of ground between first-date sex and one night stands and six weeks.   Physical intimacy is as important to men as emotional intimacy.     Asking him to wait six weeks before you explore physical intimacy is something you need to do very carefully if you don’t want the guy to feel used, led on or think that your sexual drive is far below his that  it may just not work out even after six weeks.

    I’m not sure what the fix is for avoiding the love ’em and leave ’em guys, and finding the love ’em and stay guys.   A worthwhile guy who is going to stay will want both emotional and physical intimacy.   He’s going to be exclusive with you once you share  such intimacy.   But asking him to commit prior to such mutuality, could well make him think you are high emotional maintenance; and not someone he can share the good times with and  a partner  in life, but rather a women who will expect him to” make her happy.”   A worthwhile guy wants a reciprocal relationship where you make each other happy.

    My only suggestion would be transparency and honesty, a partner worth having long term (man or woman) should respond well to this.   Let them know what you are thinking and feeling, listen well to why they may think and feel different.   In the end, both people have to trust, becoming truly intimate requires trust.   No amount of having him wait is going to make him more trustworthy.   Frankly, I can easily see guys you don’t want waiting six weeks, ones who are insecure and feel they have no options and are settling or the liar who will agree and just see others in the meantime; as well as the guy who thinks you are the one.

  11. 31
    Johnny Boy

    This is what modern dating has come down to now a days unfortunately. As explained here:

    http://blogs.davelozinski.com/dating/modern-dating-in-2016

    you used to go out on a few dates and if you liked someone, you’d consider having sex; now people have sex the first few dates and if it’s good, they then start to consider dating that person.

    It’s ok if that’s what you want; but if not, as you stated above, the only person you have to blame is yourself.

  12. 32
    Persephone

    Why is it that every interaction with the opposite sex has to be about marriage, or even a permanent relationship. Why can’t we just enjoy life right now, until our circumstances change?

    I just ended a bad relationship. My husband of nine years was emotionally and verbally abusive to me, and it was starting to borderline on physical violence.   I was about to do the fifth   police report, when he finally decided that he would agree to leave my house. It is mine from a separate estate). I was definitely not ready to fully trust someone enough to have a serious long-term relationship.

    But I didn’t want to miss out on   enjoyable   male companionship, either. It shouldn’t have to be all one way or another. Not every   sexual encounter must be with the end goal of marriage. A sympathetic shoulder   can be quite healing. I found someone who is probably unsuitable for me as a long-term partner. He was very supportive of me emotionally, when I really needed a friend. He’s from a different culture, and my life will be enriched and greatly from this experience. The chances of him remaining in this country for one year are excellent, but permanently,   very poor.    In my marriage, I lost my pregnancy and was never able to conceive a child again.   My current fella   wants kids one day, but doesn’t want to have them   unless   he’s living in his own country, with someone from his own culture. I feel like I am not “marketable” to someone who wants children, but I am an ideal fit for someone that doesn’t want children right now.

  13. 33
    Linda

    Absolutely fascinating reading on the latest youth culture. Well, I was too young to actually be a child of the free-love hippie culture; now I’m too old to be a woman of the hook-up culture. Funny how life works. One person up there in the comments did say for women to learn about how men think and for men to learn about how women think – consider those comments “priceless,” as that is the key. No point in trying to act like the opposite sex, just learn what it is that makes them tick and come to an agreement that works for both of you. Negotiation is not a bad word, even with its connotations and link to “business.”

  14. 34
    Sylvana

    I cannot, will not ever understand why women cannot have sex without emotions. That is completely strange to me. Who cares if the man respects you? It’s sex. Why would you feel used or dirty – you used him as well (to get laid). Is this really how woman feel, or is this still a remnant of what was hammered into their brains by society (that women should not want to engage in sex that way).

    From a biological standpoint, this doesn’t make any sense at all. Most species in nature would go extinct if females formed an emotional connection just because of sex, or felt bad after a “casual hookup”. Why would human women (and it’s just women, not men – if it was both we could excuse it as being human) be so different? It seems to me that even in hardcore feminists, some of the outside “programming” still comes through. That whole stigma of being called easy (or worse), or being unnatural for a woman,   that ends up leading to guilt or bad feelings.

    I’m a woman, and I don’t get it. Sex is sex. Feelings are feelings. One does not lead to another. I’ve not once in life ever had any sort of bad feelings relating to a hook-up, one-nighter, friend with benefits, fulfilling a fantasy, etc. If I want sex, I want sex, not emotional intimacy. One is a physical craving, the other an emotional one. Big difference.

    I do believe that sex gets better in a relationship (usually), since both partners get to know their likes and dislikes better. That does not mean that a woman can’t have fantastic, guilt free sex during a one-nighter with the right partner(s).

    That being said, the men I consider for casual sex are generally men I would never date. They basically serve one purpose, and one purpose only. Maybe that’s why I have no problem with it?

    I’m not criticizing anyone or trying to say what they’re feeling is wrong. I’m just trying to understand WHY women would feel that way. I doesn’t make any sense to me.

    Then again, as I’ve mentioned (likely too many times before), I am a high testosterone woman, and as such, tend to think/feel like a man. Is this just another way in which I cannot relate to women? I always thought it was just residual pressure from society, but is this truly how women feel nowadays? Looking back over time to ancient civilizations (Romans, Egyptians, etc.) women certainly did not have qualms about enjoying sex (despite society’s outlook). In a lot of more recent cultures, and even some current ones, there are plenty where women do not connect sex with emotions. So why us? Christianity?

     

     

     

    1. 34.1
      Dawn

      Sylvana,

      I’m in the same boat as you, a masculine gender woman who has trouble with the concept of being “used” for sex. If someone has truly been used for sex, that’s typically referred to as rape, and can happen to both sexes. Otherwise, if you agree to having sex with someone, then you are both benefiting…you get laid, he or she gets laid, it is a two-way street. I have never had a committed relationship in all my 33 years of life, but I’ve had 3 FWB relationships, all of which are ongoing. One guy I’ve been with for 9 years (he was actually my first sex partner), one for 6 years, and one for 2. They are all aware of the fact that I have the other two partners, and they also inform me when they have sex with other women. I do not share finances or cohabitate with any of them, we are all single. I’m not the type to enjoy casual sex or one night stands, and I do of course care about each of these men… you can’t be friends and not love each other, after all. But there’s a big difference between loving someone and wanting to get married. Just ask any guy who has a long-term drinking and fishing buddy, lol.

  15. 35
    Dawn

    After interviewing 75 male and female students and analyzing over 300 online surveys, the solidarity was undeniable: 100% of female interviewees and three-quarters of female survey respondents stated a clear preference for committed relationships.

    I wish I could know when and where to get included in these surveys and interviews. I’m 33 so couldn’t have been interviewed unfortunately, but would at least have offered that (apparently) 1% of interviewed women who prefer FWB relationships, and part of the 1/4 surveyed who do. Whenever I hear about these kinds of results, I’m amazed at how little diversity there is in the responses. Please note that I do not think the author has cherrypicked the answers for her own use, but I do wonder if there was a true attempt to get a large section of the demographic.

    Only 8% of about 25 female respondents who said they were presently in pseudo-relationships reported being “happy” with their situation.

    I’m unsure of what the author meant by “pseudo-relationship” but am guessing she simply meant uncommitted. Make no mistake however, just because a relationship is FWB and/or uncommitted doesn’t mean it is any less real. Our relationships are simply different, not fake. It is understandable that many women (and men) prefer to follow the typical life script of dating-marriage-children, but for those of us who are childfree and don’t want to be tied down or share finances, FWB is actually a great combination of healthy sex and close friendship/companionship.

    1. 35.1
      Clare

      “FWB is actually a great combination of healthy sex and close friendship/companionship.”

      It does not offer monogamy, however, which is what many people long for most of all, human beings being innately jealous and territorial.

  16. 36
    Michelle

    I just turned 46, and am a healthy single woman with a healthy sex drive.   I love men.   However, I rarely come across a man who I like enough to be my boyfriend and who also has reciprocal feelings towards me.   This puts me in a quandary.   I am not a serial monogamist.   I enjoy being single, and although I date frequently, it has been years since i’ve had a “boyfriend.”   I agree casual relationships are less than ideal, but the other option does seem to be abstinence which is also not a desirable option for me. What am I to do?   Lower my standards so I can settle for some man to be my boyfriend?   Get cobwebs up in there?   Neither sound good to me.   As far as playing around without intercourse, well, that is the same as having sex to me.   Doing “everything but” has no significance for me, and some acts of foreplay can seem even more intimate than actual penetration. I may as well be having sex as far as I am concerned.   It is a situation I have been trying to figure out for years – how does a single woman get meaningful and satisfying sexual connection without settling for some boyfriend she doesn’t really want?

    1. 36.1
      Clare

      Michelle,

      I absolutely hear you and was in that situation for such a long time. I have a high sex drive, so for me it is horrible to go weeks or months without sex. Like you, there were very few men whom I liked enough to commit to in a meaningful way. Overwhelmingly what would happen to me is that I would meet guys who were “nice enough,” or who lacked something I was looking for, or whom I could never see myself falling in love with. I have friends who love to be in a relationship and who will give the boyfriend title to just about anyone who is willing to wear it, but I am just not like that. Very far from it.

      Anyway, I frequently had arrangements with guys where I had sex with them and where it was understood that it would not go further than that. It’s not a perfect system, but I really didn’t know what else to do. Sometimes feelings would get hurt – sometimes they would be mine, sometimes they would be the guy’s. But it all seemed preferable to me than no romantic/sexual involvement at all, or than settling for guys whom I only had tepid feelings for just for the sake of having a boyfriend. I too agree that certain sexual acts, short of intercourse, are just as intimate if not more so than sex itself. Stopping short of intercourse also seemed to punish me.

      It’s not a perfect system. Sigh. My advice is to work it so that it works best for you and continue dating until you meet the right guy. Some tips I would suggest if you are going to have a FWB is to choose someone with a very calm and emotionally stable disposition and someone you actually like as a friend but won’t be in danger of falling in love with.

      1. 36.1.1
        Michelle

        Thanks, Clare!!   Finally someone who understands:):):).   And thanks for the advice about who to choose.   I usually have an arrangement with one of my friends – a “back door man” so to speak – who is a good lover and a nice person but lacking something so that there is no danger I would fall in love with him.   However, my most recent one moved away, and I took to sleeping with an ex-boyfriend who I was in love with but who broke up with me to be with someone else.   What a mistake.   It was fun while we were together, but a week or so after each time, even though he would be in touch, I would get the blues. I want more than just sex from him, and I have told him as much. Just ended it with him again for the umpteenth time.   Time to take some time to heal my broken heart.   But I continue to date through all this, and if another not-quite-boyfriend-material-but-cute-and-nice-enough guy shows up before I meet “The One,” (or one of The Ones – lol) well, hey 😉

        Seriously, tho, I appreciate your insight and sharing your experience.   Thanks!

  17. 37
    Jasmina Loulova

    I believe the tem”Friends with benefits” was created by a man. The only bene-

    fits are for the man: free sex and guaranteed hookups at his own convenience

    without any emotional involvement or consequences. What a great deal for

    all the jerks. It’s women’s responsibility to not agree to this degrading arrange-

    ment. I am not a feminist, but women have to show some value and not let

    themselves being used and abused.

    1. 37.1
      Dawn

      Jasmina,

      I am also not a feminist, I’m an egalitarian, but am wondering about what you find degrading about sex. As a woman who has 3 long-term, ongoing FWB relationships with great men I care about as friends/lovers, I don’t see how imI being “abused”. Just to give you an idea of my perspective, I get to have 1) close friendships 2) STD-free sex 3) no threat of pregnancy since two of them are vasectomized and one is just naturally infertile and 4) no worries about any of them pressuring me into marriage or cohabitation since we all have our own lives. Honestly, my FWB relationships are much better than many of the dating relationships I see and read about.

      So long as everyone is aware that you are in an uncommitted relationship with numerous people, and everyone practices safe sex, is vaccinated from HPV, and gets yearly checkups, I don’t know what kind of consequences you are referring to. However, I would like to know and discuss this further if you are interested, since I enjoy learning about other viewpoints.

      1. 37.1.1
        Jasmina

        Hello, Dawn,

        I see your point of view. It’s fine to have sex without strings attached, if
        you enjoy it. But I believe since it is friends with benefits relationship, you
        are entitled to some benefits – money, help from the men involved, other-
        wise it is just free sex and the woman feels being taken advantage of.
        When you give away sex and you get nothing in return, your self confidence
        takes a major hit, you share the most vulnerable part of yourself and will
        eventually get hurt emotionally.In every relationship, committed or not
        there should be giving and receiving, otherwise the giver will get burnt
        and become resentful.
        Men are famous to want a no strings attached sex, it is in their DNA,
        but we, women should not give it away for free, because we are the prize.

  18. 38
    No Name To Give

    The only way to win that game is not to play.

  19. 39
    Dawn

    Hi Jasmina,

    Thanks for your reply. You have quite a unique perspective (or perhaps not so unique…it would be interesting to hear from other commenters) on this topic. I’d like to point out two things from your comment, and maybe get some further dialogue or clarification.

    First, you say that since it is FWB, that I should be entitled to some benefits like money or help from my partners. However, it has always been my understanding that the “benefits” portion of being friends with benefits is the sex itself. After all, friends do normally help each other… and yes, since we are friends I do help them with things like driving them to the airport, watching their pets while they’re away, lending them $10-20 if they left their wallet at home, assisting them with moving, etc. and they have done the same for me. But again, that’s typical friend stuff. The guaranteed sex is the benefit, and one I enjoy and reap the rewards for just as much as them.

    Secondly, you say that every relationship should have giving and receiving. I absolutely agree with that. You also say that the giver will become resentful if it is not balanced. I agree with this sentiment as well. But the part where I lose understanding is that you make it sound as though sex is…I don’t know. Oddly transactional. Something that only women are capable of giving, and only men are able to receive? Am I getting that viewpoint correct? The way I view it is quite different. I give orgasms, and receive them. I give intimacy, and receive it. I give sensual massages, and receive them. I give passionate kisses, and receive them. There is absolutely an equal amount of give and take when it comes to sex. Though really, if I’m being completely honest, I actually end up receiving a lot more since I have a ratio of 4:1 orgasms compared to them. The only way for me to get “nothing” in return would be a strange scenario indeed, where I would have to be unconscious on sleeping pills or something while they have sex with me…in that case, yes, I suppose I’d be “giving” without receiving. But that definitely doesn’t happen.

    1. 39.1
      Kenley

      Dawn,

      I think you are fortunate in that you really do seem to have a true FWB relationship – you are doing the friend stuff and the benefit stuff and it is working for you.   I feel the dynamic Jasmine is describing is a fuck buddy relationship.   Sometimes people use the terms interchangeably but they are different.    For fuck buddies there is no friendship.   It is just sex. And it often feels like the guys call the shots.

      But, it does sound like Jasmine is saying, that sex can’t be the only thing women get out of the deal, they should get money or something else    Well, if they get money, isn’t that called prostitution?

       

  20. 40
    Lauren

    I do wait for a boyfriend to become intimate – if I think a guy is boyfriend material then I definitely wait! However, sometimes, during particularly long stretches before a worthy suitor has presented himself, I will indulge in a one or two (max) time hook-up. The way I see it is this: You’re hungry. You’re craving a nice meal. What you want is a steak dinner, with a white tablecloth, candles, red wine, a Caesar salad, dinner roll, baked potato, etc. Or whatever you’re dream dinner is (I’m actually vegetarian  so mine would be fancy pizza!). But, sometimes that meal just doesn’t come along anytime soon. And then you see a hamburger. You know if you eat the fast-food you’ll probably feel a little bloaty after, it won’t really satisfy you but, you won’t be STARVING anymore. So, sometimes you say, “you know what, I’m going to wait for the nice meal, I’ll feel better if I do,” And sometimes you say, “F-it!” and eat the hamburger. As long as you know what you’re doing and you don’t delude yourself into thinking this one-time thing could turn into something substantial (it’s possible, but not likely) – then go ahead, get something to eat. I prefer to hook up in this way with people I either meet on vacation (and therefore will never see again) or someone who I’ve already identified as not being a good match for me, so, therefore, I won’t go ga-ga over them post-hook up. Despite this, I do still usually develop feelings or think, “Maybe I was wrong about him?” and I have to remember it’s just chemicals taking over my brain and pre-sex I didn’t think they were right for me, so I have to stay strong and eventually the dopamine, oxytocin, etc. wears off and I’m happy I cut it off. But, you know, women like sex just as much as men! And sometimes you just gotta eat 🙂

    1. 40.1
      MilkyMae

      I don’t understand this style of waiting.   You are withholding intimacy from potential boyfriends but you occasionally sleep with men in between.     This sounds backwards(waiting without waiting). Waiting for a bf may work and having sex while hoping for a bf may work. But holding out for a bf while hooking up with a horny man seems like the worst of the three options.   Personally, I think waiting is a perilous strategy.   You have to move closer to your goal while time marches on.   Waiting can take too long.   Waiting can be like waiting for the perfect job offer while you are collecting unemployment and living with parents.   Eventually, waiting is really just letting the others or the universe make the hard decisions for you.

      1. 40.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @MilkyMae

        This sounds backwards(waiting without waiting). Waiting for a bf may work and having sex while hoping for a bf may work. But holding out for a bf while hooking up with a horny man seems like the worst of the three options.  

        You are correct.   That pattern of behavior is backwards.   It is amazing how many women do not realize how damaging it can be to a potential relationship.   Women can claim that they like sex just as much as men, but there is one big difference; namely, men are not the gatekeepers to sex.   Men have to work for sex (i.e., there is no such thing as a female incel). When a woman withholds sex from a man from whom she desires commitment, she better not have the bimodal hookup with guys who do not matter while making guys who matter wait approach to sex because it will come back to haunt her in spades.   When a woman takes that approach to sex, she cheapens the value of a guy’s commitment while simultaneously lowering his rank within the male social hierarchy.     Like it or not, time to sex is part of what establishes a man’s rank within the male social hierarchy, and men are conscious of where they land within that hierarchy.

        Women can complain about the male patriarchy as much as they want, but it pales in comparison to what men have to endure on a daily basis when interacting with other men.   Men are highly competitive and purpose driven because they need to obtain status in order to attract women.   Men constantly size themselves up against other men.   Even though they may not be physical, battles for dominance occur on a daily basis.    When a woman hooks up with some men while making others wait, she is unknowingly lowering the status of the men she makes wait.   She thinks that she is elevating a man’s status because she desires a relationship with him while he is thinking the exact opposite.     While retroactive jealously affects men and women, men are usually focused on a woman’s past casual sexual partners whereas women are usually focused on a man’s past relationships.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          YAG, like most of our bright commenters who have a point, you seem to overstate it and have it diminish in power. From my perspective:

          “Like it or not, time to sex is part of what establishes a man’s rank within the male social hierarchy, and men are conscious of where they land within that hierarchy.”

          This isn’t a fact the way “I have two arms” is a fact. This is a very strongly held belief of yours. And it may be a very strongly held belief of insecure betas who are constantly fretting about where they fall in the “social hierarchy” and whether other men are getting laid faster. But that is not all men. It’s certainly not me. I never ever thought about whether other men were getting action faster than I was; I was focused solely on how much I liked a woman for a) hookup potential, b) girlfriend potential. If the hookup was going nowhere after a few dates, I might bail early. But if I REALLY liked her and we were fooling around, going around the bases, flirting, connecting? I did not spend ONE SECOND thinking about how fast I’m getting laid or who else she may be getting it from.

          So, again, you have a point if your point is that men want to get laid fast. You lose me (and probably most of our readers) when you talk about this primate-like hierarchy which everyone is tapped into and drives all of our behaviors. It doesn’t. Maybe if I were in a village of 150 in the Trobriand Islands or on the Bachelor. But in real life, I have no concern with anybody else’s sexual behavior or drives but my own. And if I meet a woman with girlfriend potential, I respect the fact that she is not sleeping with me while I’m still active on Tinder. Any guy who doesn’t respect and understand this should immediately be discarded.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Evan

          You missed the point.   A woman who is hooking up between relationships is no different than the guy who is on Tinder.   Why should he have to commit to her for sex if she is not making other men commit for sex?

          As far as to the male social hierarchy, I have to say that you are the outlier here, not me.   Shawn T. Smith outlines how it drives most good men fairly well in his book entitled “The Woman’s Guide to How Men Think: Love, Commitment, and the Male Mind.”   As a PsyD who specializes in relationship behavior, I would believe that   Mr. Smith is better qualified to comment on the universal nature of this behavior.

           

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          YAG – No, you missed the point.

          You have NO IDEA who she is sleeping with. That’s the nature of dating.

          So I go out with a woman and I really like her and she makes me wait until we’re in a relationship to have sex because she respects herself and doesn’t like sleeping with sexually active men. I’m 100% fine with this. You, somehow, are not.

          You seem very caught up in male competition – spending an inordinate amount of time worrying about who she’s fucking behind your back. I never ever worried about that because I’m secure and naturally assumed that it was up to ME if I wanted to be her boyfriend.

          So instead of repeating yourself and sending me (of all people) a book on how men think, how about you listen for a second?

          If a woman is NOT hooking up on Tinder. If she’s dating you in those first few weeks, it’s getting hot and heavy, and she says, “I’m really attracted to you, YAG, and I’d love to sleep with you, but since we’ve only known each other for three dates, I’m gonna have to stop here. If, in a few weeks, we both determine that this is a relationship worth investing in, you’re in for the night of your life.” You like this woman. You are considering her as a girlfriend. Are you telling me that:

          a) You’re actually thinking of the fear of her being with other guys at this moment?
          b) You should have the right to sleep with her because she MIGHT be sleeping with someone else?
          c) You would bail on a woman you liked simply because she doesn’t sleep with men who are not her boyfriend?

          My answer to all of the above is NO. If you say yes to any of them, it says everything about the differences between you and me.

        4. Emily, to

          YAG,

          men are usually focused on a woman’s past casual sexual partners whereas women are usually focused on a man’s past relationships.

          A man cannot disparage a woman’s sexual past if he himself   has been a himbo, male bimbo. It is ridiculous.

        5. Lauren

          I think we all do what works for us. And to clarify – I have a one-night stand typically when I’m either taking a break from dating or very casually dating (like maybe I have a handful of first dates scheduled). Never when I’m actually actively dating someone and NEVER when I’m being exclusive to someone. It’s only during dry spells. Also, I agree with Evan that you’re missing the point. I never sleep with anyone I think could be a potential boyfriend. I usually pick guys who are younger, fun but not bf material. And I’d also like to say – I’ve spent more than 12 months at a time single – during some years this was by choice and other times it was not. For example, I lived abroad for four years. The first year I could barely master the language. It seemed inappropriate to sleep with someone when I could barely ask them about themselves. So, I focused on the service work I was there to do, learning the language, and dating took a back seat. I went 14 months without a relationship or sex. So, yes, when the opportunity came along to hook-up with a nice young man, I took it! He’s still a friend to this day. I would say I would have “a hamburger” maybe 1-3x a year typically. So, it’s not like each month I’m having a one night stand. I joke that I’m a “sex camel” just getting enough sex to last me a potentially long time. If I’m dating someone and we’re not exclusive yet, kissing, rounding the bases, etc. this is enough for me to feel sexually satisfied and there’s the *hope* of sex on the horizon – with someone who may actually be worth a darn! So, I’m certainly not looking for a one-night stand during that time period.

          I wrote all this out to expand your understanding but let me clarify, no man, woman, or non-binary person needs to defend how they relate their sexuality, sexual preferences or habits to anyone. I do what works for me and you are free to do what works for you. Good luck!

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @Evan

          You are re-framing the discussion to fit your thesis.   There is nothing wrong with a woman making a man wait for sex until he commits.   However, there is everything wrong with a woman making a man in whom she is interested wait while she is hooking up with other men or hooked up with a string of men before she met him.   Sure, she is entitled to make him wait until he commits.   However, he is not obliged to do so, and he has every right to balk.

          As far as to a woman’s sexual behavior not being known,   I have to disagree.   I live in a town of a little over 100,000 people within a large metropolitan area.     You would be amazed by how quickly information spreads, especially when it comes to fifty-something women having NSA sex with men half of their age while expecting peer-age men to court and commit for sex.   Very little is secret in the day of social media.     I am part of single male social network.   It exists mostly to organize activities.   However, we all share our dating stories.   It is amazing how many women have unknowingly dated more than one man in this network.

          In the end, the reality is that neither you, nor I are average guys.   The average American man has at most 14 partners in his lifetime and struggles to obtain dates on dating sites.   The average American man could not do your job.   He would not have a clue as to where to start.

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          “However, there is everything wrong with a woman making a man in whom she is interested wait while she is hooking up with other men or hooked up with a string of men before she met him.”

          My quick response:

          a. I have no idea who else she’s dating when I’m dating her. Neither do you (for the most part) So I don’t spend any time thinking about it. I’d suggest the same to you and other men.
          b. Who she hooked up with prior to meeting me is irrelevant. As irrelevant as all the people I hooked up with prior to meeting her. I may have been a slut, but I’m not a hypocrite.

          Again, I think you’re a bright guy and a valuable commenter, but this strange obsession with a woman’s past exploits or comparing the time it takes to have sex between you and a bunch of unknown, unseen men seems, at the very least, to be counterproductive. That’s not a judgment of your character but rather a more objective statement about things that should NOT get your panties in a bunch.

        8. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, to

          “A man cannot disparage a woman’s sexual past if he himself has been a himbo, male bimbo. It is ridiculous.”

          The reality is that the average guy is not a himbo,at least not the average American guy. The average American man has at most 14 partners in his lifetime. Sure, there are guys who get around, but they are also usually guys who are not willing to commit for sex. Why would these guys wait? They have options if a woman is unwilling to give them what they desire. While I often choose to wait for sex because I do not want to have to worry about potential emotional fallout, I never have to wait for sex. However, my situation does not nullify the reality that the sex scale is tilted in favor of women; therefore, the average woman can control when she has sex. The average guy is not that fortunate. That is why a lot of single guys develop porn addictions.

        9. Yet Another Guy

          @Lauren

          Your are entitled to live your life as you see fit. However, you should not be surprised when a man is not willing to commit to you before you will have sex with him. Every time a woman has hookup sex, she cheapens the value of her sex just as every time a guy commits quickly and easily cheapens the value of his commitment. What we are looking at is a quid pro quo situation between gatekeepers that is based on perceived value. Each gatekeeper is looking to maximize her/her outcome. Men desire women who are easy for them, but hard for other men. Women desire men who commit to them, but will be difficult for another woman to pry away. These two scenarios make the respective partner feel special. They also meet primal needs. A man gets a woman with whom he has a bit of paternity assurance (i.e., she will not have sex with other men behind his back). A woman gets a man with whom she can enjoy the safety and security that a relationship provides without fear of female interlopers. That is why retroactive jealously is experienced differently between men and women. Men worry about a woman’s past hookups. Women worry about a man’s prior relationships (i.e., in like are there still feelings). Both of these worries are based on the lost of security.

        10. Jeremy

          It matters much less what we believe than it does why we believe it.   If we’ve got our reasons for belief firmly rooted, we can find evidence for almost any viewpoint.   With this in mind, here’s my question for you, YAG.   Why does this issue matter so much to you?

           

          When I was dating I likely would not have considered a woman who’d had a history of casual sex.   But that’s because of what sex means to me, what I needed it to mean to my partner, and what compatibility means to me.   I did not expect anything of others that I didn’t do myself.   But yours is a different story, isn’t it?   So why does this issue mean so much to you?

        11. Lauren

          @YAG – So far, no man who has ever become my boyfriend has balked at delaying sex. In fact, since I took on this method of dating (at Evan’s suggestion) I actually have never had to say, “I don’t sleep with someone until we are exclusive,”. In both instance (two boyfriends during a four year period – one lasted 3 months the other for almost two years) – both men were too busy having fun with me for it to be an issue. We were rounding the bases and having fun getting to know each other. My long-term bf actually was the one who said he’d rather wait! He didn’t want sex to cloud his judgment about making a decision about starting a relationship! So, all I had to do was respond that I was on the same page. We did other things, and certainly, at this time I was not hooking-up elsewhere. Also, no boyfriend (who was worth a darn) has ever judged me for my previous sexual encounters, in the same way, that I don’t judge them. Good luck to you!

        12. Yet Another Guy

          @Jeremey

          “So why does this issue mean so much to you?”

          My response is grounded in primal instinct that was selected under pressure between seventy and one hundred thousand years ago; namely, instinct that exists to prevent a man from being made a cuckold (I can assure you that your beliefs are grounded in primal instinct when you strip away the veneer).   You have to ask yourself why women seek commitment in a time when they no longer need provisioning? After all, why would a woman need commitment today? Is it not enough just to have sex with a man a woman likes without commitment?   The reality is that securing a man via commitment is also grounded in primal instinct that was selected under pressure for a woman’s safety and security during the same period of time.   What modern men and women are dealing with is what is known in science as evolutionary lag.   We are not biologically designed for modern times.   Men are driven by instinct to identify chaste women.   Women are driven by instinct to secure commitment from a man with status.   When a man balks at having to wait for something that other men obtained easily, what is really occurring is that his inner caveman is saying that he is unwilling to invest the future of his genome in a woman who has a history of promiscuity because he cannot be assured that any children that that woman bears are his own.     When a woman will not have sex with a man without a relationship,   what is really occurring is that her inner cave woman is saying that she is unwilling to jeopardize the future of her genome with a man who cannot be trusted to stick around.     The crazy thing is that our behavior is controlled by primal instinct long after we pass normal child bearing age, and this behavior is very difficult for most people to override.

          The TL;DR version is that a woman should not be surprised when a man does not want to commit when she thinks that it is okay to hookup with men.   Men are getting what they want without committing and they do not have to risk committing to a woman who they believe presents a higher probability of making them a cuckold. You can see this dynamic in play in the manosphere.   The reality is that women who desire a man who will commit needs to dial back the promiscuity, and men who desire a non-promiscuous woman have to learn how to make and keep a commitment.

        13. Marika

          YAG

          Emily wasn’t referring to ‘the average guy’, she was referring to you. You’ve had sexys on stand bys in the past, admitted to treating women as disposable in your 20s, stolen your friends gfs back then etc etc.. If any woman judged you on your past that would be an unfair reflection of who you are with them, right now. But it would also be fair in a way, so you’re not a hypocrite.

          I’ve been on hundreds of dates, met hundreds of men. Your approach to dating is far from typical IME. You are, let’s say far more careful.  Way more rules, way more hoops to jump through to date you. In some ways it’s good, but you are a lot more mindful & concerned about various things to do with your dates, their past etc than most guys.

          I think these opinions have way more to do with your personality (and possibly age) than your gender.

        14. Jeremy

          YAG, I actually agree with some of this.   But it’s interesting your perspective versus mine.   Do you remember the interview Evan posted a while back with Bret Weinstein?   Where he talked about evolved human sexual strategies?   That historical women selected male partners based either on their likelihood to support any children they fathered or on their genetic potential.   That if they found a man who’d be a good dad, they’d vet him for his provisioning ability and then demonstrate their chastity.   But if they found a man whose genetic fitness was high enough, they’d throw vetting out the window and have sex with him because obtaining his genetics for her children was worth raising the children alone.   Cad strategy for the high-value men, dad strategy for the lower-value men.   It’s not what modern women who practice this are thinking at the time, but it’s where the algorithm comes from, all post-hoc justifications aside.

           

          And while birth control wreaks havoc with this schema, its meaning remains in our evolved psychology.   A man sees that a woman makes him wait but has sex quickly with others – he believes deep down that she must value those others more.   Else, why would she do something as evolutionarily stupid as have sex (risk pregnancy) with those others without promise of commitment?   The more a man has to offer commitment before a woman agrees to have sex with him, the more of an issue this becomes.   Not the fact that he has to offer commitment (which many men are happy to do), but that she didn’t require it of others.

           

          All this to say, I get what you’re talking about when you speak about evolved primal instincts, and why you are correct when you write that in my case it is the underlying motivation behind the veneer.   But that’s because I qualify for “dad” strategy.   As a high-income male, if I commit marriage to a woman who isn’t terribly attracted to me and later shows this in her behavior, I then am left with the choice of a miserable marriage or a lifetime of indentured servitude (no exaggeration).   But you, YAG, are single, and by your own admission qualify for   “Cad” status.   Not looking for monogamy, not offering commitment, sampling from the sexual bounty entitled to your genetic heritage.   So again, my question: Why does this bother you so much?

        15. Emily, to

          YAG

          Jeremy wrote:  

          When I was dating I likely would not have considered a woman who’d had a history of casual sex.   But that’s because of what sex means to me, what I needed it to mean to my partner, and what compatibility means to me.   I did not expect anything of others that I didn’t do myself.  

          THANK YOU, Jeremy. That’s exactly what I was saying. Expecting a woman’s sexual past to be, shall we say, toned down when you yourself, YAG, have admitted to test driving almost every car on the lot is RIDICULOUS. It’s like the man who is 50 pounds overweight expecting a supermodel.

        16. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, to

          YAG, have admitted to test driving almost every car on the lot is RIDICULOUS.

          That was in my past, not my present.   I am not talking about a woman my age who had colorful sexual history in her twenties or thirties.   I am talking about today.   I am quite conservative when it comes to sex today.   Due to the rampant growth of HSV and HPV infections in my age cohort (a condom only provides partial protection against these viruses because they can be spread via skin-to-skin contact), I no longer have sex outside of a relationship, and I expect any woman who is interested in me to share the same mindset.   You would be surprised by how many age 50+ women are hooking up on a regular basis, most often with age inappropriate men, while seeking a peer-age man who will court them properly and commit before sex.   I was shocked the first time I discovered this behavioral pattern.   Nothing peer-age single women do fazes me now, which is why I always do my homework when I meet a new woman.

          Women are free to behave as they wish.   They just have to realize that actions have consequences.   If a woman continues to hookup while looking for a guy who is commitment material and then plays the chaste until commitment card with him, she should not be surprised when he balks at the idea.   Nothing one does today remains a secret for long due to social media.   That is how I discovered a woman who was playing the chaste until commitment card with me had a twenty-something FWB.   When I confronted her about it, her response was “A girl has needs.”   My response to her response was “A guy has needs too, thanks for playing!”   To say that she was pissed was an understatement.

        17. Emily, to

          YAG,

          “Due to the rampant growth of HSV and HPV infections in my age cohort (a condom only provides partial protection against these viruses because they can be spread via skin-to-skin contact), I no longer have sex outside of a relationship, and I expect any woman who is interested in me to share the same mindset.   You would be surprised by how many age 50+ women are hooking up on a regular basis, most often with age inappropriate men, while seeking a peer-age man who will court them properly and commit before sex.”

          If you’re not asking a woman to do anything you aren’t — AND THAT MEANS NO Physical CONTACT OF ANY KIND WITH ANOTHER WOMAN — NO SEXIES ON STANDBY, EVEN IF ALL YOU ARE DOING IS SLEEPING IN THE BED — and no pursuing of other women), then fine. If you want a committed, monogamous relationship and are asking the woman to follow the same rules you follow, that’s totally reasonable.

          What I suspect is that these women are coming out of bad marriages where the sex went to pot, and they’re grabbing at opportunities. The candy store mentality as you so subtly refer to it.   It’s possible the men they are dating for commitment they see as long term prospects and want to wait, but I’m not having this conversation again because we’ve gone back and forth with it endlessly, and I don’t have the energy for it. And, yes, it’s possible also they find the men they are “dating” to be less appealing than the young dudes so they are making the dating prospects wait. Hard to say. I don’t know any woman who is doing that.

        18. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, to

          What I suspect is that these women are coming out of bad marriages where the sex went to pot, and they’re grabbing at opportunities. The candy store mentality as you so subtly refer to it.   It’s possible the men they are dating for commitment they see as long term prospects and want to wait, but I’m not having this conversation again because we’ve gone back and forth with it endlessly, and I don’t have the energy for it. And, yes, it’s possible also they find the men they are “dating” to be less appealing than the young dudes so they are making the dating prospects wait. Hard to say.

          The behavior is fairly common in my peer age group where I live.   It baffled me the first time I encountered it.   I am not exactly certain why it is happening other than the preponderance of younger men in my area who are willing to engage in NSA sex with older women.     If what you mentioned about their peer-age dating prospects being less desirable sex partners is true, why are they bothering to date peer-age men?   If all they are seeking is companionship from a peer-age man, that is why friends exist.     If they are looking for more than companionship, why withhold sex? That just messes with a man’s head.   I do not want to hear about a woman withholding sex to protect her heart when she is having NSA sex with a guy half of her age.   That is total BS.   If she can disconnect her heart with a guy half her age, it should not factor into the equation with a peer-age guy.   If sex is just sex with the younger guy, sex should just be sex with the peer-age guy.

        19. Emily, to

          YAG,

          The behavior is fairly common in my peer age group where I live.   It baffled me the first time I encountered it.  

          As I wrote, I personally don’t know any women who are doing what you wrote about. If you don’t mind me saying this, your comments are usually peppered with one person trying to get one up on the other or give something to one person and f*** over another. I don’t know women who date like that or who think like that. I’m not saying they are saints and don’t perhaps behave selfishly at times, but they aren’t Machiavellian. And the women I know want to date men their own age. I only know one who dated a younger guy, and she was with him for 2 years. It wasn’t just a hookup.

             If what you mentioned about their peer-age dating prospects being less desirable sex partners is true, why are they bothering to date peer-age men?

          Ah … the young guys won’t commit. But, again, I don’t know any of the kind of women you are describing.

        20. Nissa

          YAG,

          While I have disagreed with you on many points, I’m not sure I disagree with you on a few of your ideas here. Such as, men prioritize sex to a greater degree than women do. I don’t see that as either good or bad, just factually true as an average. I would also agree that people usually take actions to secure things that they value or prioritize. For woman, that is usually commitment (and sometimes money), and for men it’s usually sex.

          If I agree to those things as givens, it would make sense for there to be common arrangements where both parties get their needs met. Both prostitution and marriage meet that description. I would even say that if having a healthy, regular sex partner is a priority, marriage is a reasonable solution to that problem. It does land in the “pro” column when one is counting pros and cons when deciding whether or not to marry. But, for most people, there are enough cons to that solution that it ends up being not the primary reason most men marry.

          And I agree that it feels like the men that are having non committed hookups with women are being “rewarded” in some way, in that they get what they want, without having to give that which feels costly to them.

          In my dating history, men have never directly asked for my partner count. I have been asked things like “You haven’t been dating?” or “How come you are still single if you’ve been divorced so long”? These might be hidden attempts to discern partner count (to which I was completely oblivious).

          However, I would say that such is life. Surely all of us have seen others receive that which we desired for ourselves, without understanding why the other person qualified for that benefit while we did not. There’s always someone younger, prettier, richer. I have found only pain in putting focus on what I didn’t have, instead of gratitude for what I do have, or have received. It’s just more effective.

          Another way to think about this is in terms of power. From your view, YAG, the power belongs to the woman, who determines your social value by virtue of giving sex to the “best” man. By Evan’s view, the power belongs to the man, who chooses each woman as being what he wants / values / enjoys. Why would you choose the view that puts the power in someone else’s….hands?

      2. 40.1.2
        ezamuzed

        I couldn’t agree more with YAG. Making potential boyfriends wait for sex while having quick sex with near strangers makes no sense. If I was in that situation it would be downright offensive. If my girlfriend had made me wait for sex and I found out she had random hookups with other guys in recent history before me I would feel like she wasn’t physically into me as much as these other guys so I would end the relationship.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @ezamuzed

          If my girlfriend had made me wait for sex and I found out she had random hookups with other guys in recent history before me I would feel like she wasn’t physically into me as much as these other guys so I would end the relationship.

          A lot of women on this blog seem to be unable to grasp this reality.     They think that they are elevating a man’s status because he is so special that they want to wait when the man is thinking he is less special because he has been made to wait when other men in the recent past received a fast pass.   If we replace “sex” with “commitment” and switch genders, you will find more than one letter to Evan lamenting how the situation made the letter writer feel less special.   The reality is that women get wrapped around the axle when they are made to wait for commitment from a guy they want who committed to other women quickly before or after they entered the picture.   They cannot possibly grasp the idea that making one guy wait while hooking up with other guys in the recent past could possibly affect his self-esteem.   They attempt to shame men by claiming that they are insecure.   Yet, you never she guys attempting to shame women by claiming that they are insure when it comes to time to commitment.   Men are not that petty.

        2. Clare

          YAG,

          “Yet, you never she guys attempting to shame women by claiming that they are insure when it comes to time to commitment.   Men are not that petty.”

          When did you become on what  all  men do or what all men claim?

          Since you don’t date men, I hardly think you’re in a position to comment on what they say to us when we want a commitment. Plenty of men make women feel awkward and needy for wanting a commitment or a relationship – luckily, for a woman with healthy self-esteem, such men weed themselves out.

          I don’t want to get into a relentless back and forth with you about this, but honestly, I have to wonder if this is a cultural thing. The experiences of the men in your singles group in your small town are not representative of men everywhere. Like Marika, I have dated  lots  of men (somewhere around 6o or 70, not including the guys I dated before my marriage when I was in university) since my divorce 9 years ago, and not one of them has expressed the slightest bit of interest in how quickly I slept with other guys. Not one.

          Only one guy has ever even  asked  me about my sexual history, and he turned out to be jealous as all hell, insecure and emotionally unstable. The vast majority of the guys I have gone out with (ie. almost all of them) convey the impression that the very last thing they want to hear about or picture is me having sex with another guy, hence, that topic of conversation is out of bounds. In other words, in my experience, guys do not care about my relationships (sexual or otherwise) with other men.

          So, yeah, I really have to wonder if this is a cultural thing, in which case, please refrain from making sweeping generalizations about how  all  men think and behave.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Clare

          First off, I live in the middle of one of the largest metropolitan areas in the United States.     While I agree that it may be local culture thing, that does not explain ezamuzed’s response.   He lives on the opposite coast.

          No man wants to feel less desirable just as no woman wants to feel less desirable.     We can claim that it is a self-esteem thing.   However, I argue is that it is a human nature thing.   Men and women date with different goals.   As Evan has mentioned many times, men look for sex and find love; therefore, men place a higher emphasis on being sexually desirable than women.   It is not that women do not need to feel sexually desirable.   It is that sex is cheap to women.   They do not have to work at it.    Desirability is a means to securing commitment for women.   Desirability is a means of securing sex for men.   Just as women do not see anything wrong with hooking up with guys who are not relationship material while making guys are who relationship material wait, men will commit to a woman with whom they have no intention of having long-term relationship if it will allow them to gain access to sex.   I do not know if it has happened to you, but I know very few women who have not had a guy commit to them to have sex only to dump them after the deed was done.    Once again, this phenomenon may be a culture thing.

          The TL;DR version is that commitment does not mean the same thing to men as it does to women just as sex does not mean the same thing to women that it does to men.   Very few men crave commitment.   What they crave is steady sex.   Commitment is the price of securing a steady sex partner.    Men do not experience emotions like women, which is in large part due to the fact that men are raised to be expendable.   Eggs are expensive while sperm is cheap because one man can impregnate multiple women.   Our genome bears this reality out.   There is more genetic diversity in the mitochondrial DNA that men inherit from their mothers than in the nonrecombining region of the Y chromosome that men inherit from their fathers.      In fact,   our genome tells us that twice as many women have given birth as men have fathered children over the history of mankind.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          You cant feel “less desirable” if you have NO IDEA who else she is seeing or having sex with. Everyone else is saying they have NO IDEA. Except for you, YAG, because you’re…what? Omniscient? A private investigator? Who has the time, energy or desire to dig deep into the amount of time that the woman you’re seeing has sex with OTHER men? You sound like someone who is still investigating Benghazi.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Also, the idea that men get married for access to steady sex is laugh out loud absurd. Sex is 5% of a good marriage. Anyone who treats it as 95% is an idiot and deserves both his miserable marriage and painful divorce when his wife discovers he married her for her genitals. Please YAG, quit while you’re behind.

        6. Tron Swanson

          I agree with you 100%, YAG. From talking with other guys, it’s clear that most of them get into relationships (marriage or otherwise) for two reasons: the women said no more sex if they weren’t somehow official, and the guys were tired of constantly having to go out and “earn” sex with new women. It’s baffling to me that anyone would try to downplay the importance of sex when it comes to men’s motivations for getting into a relationship. Look, I’m hardly a masculine or traditional guy, but the idea that I’d get into a relationship because of primarily non-sexual stuff…yeah, um…alrighty. I used to want relationships, and I remember why I wanted them.

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          All the more evidence that you, Tron, are a man for women to avoid. Nothing personal. I’m just surprised that men who don’t like women or see value in them besides sex frequent a site designed to steer women far away from you.

        8. Clare

          Tron,

          I’m not going to dignify your comment with a response because you have made it abundantly clear on this site what kind of man you are. You are  not  representative of the guys I date or would consider dating.

          YAG,

          If you continue to insist that you and your pals have extensive inside knowledge about who the women you date are sleeping with and have slept with, I can’t contradict you. But I will say that from my experience, this is absurd. As both I, Marika and Evan have stated, and a point you have failed to address, is that the guys we date have  absolutely no idea  who we have slept with, haven’t asked and DO NOT CARE. Either because their “self-esteem” (as you put it) is miles higher than yours, or because they see it as entirely irrelevant. Which… it is.

          If my mom chooses to buy my much younger brother a car that costs a few thousand more than the one she bought me when I was his age, sure I could choose to feel slighted by that. I could choose to see it as a sign that she loves him more than me. But frankly, I’ve moved on and it’s irrelevant to my life now. Much like the sex I’ve had with the guys yonks before the guy I’m currently in a relationship (and regularly boinking).

        9. ezamuzed

          @Evan,

          You cant feel “less desirable” if you have NO IDEA who else she is seeing or having sex with.

          But you might feel “less desirable” if you found out later. Say a few months into the relationship. Even without asking, things like sexual and relationship history do come up in conversation.

          I’m just perplexed by the thinking of woman like Clare. I just cannot fathom why she is making potential boyfriends wait for sex but willing to hookup with strangers she doesn’t know. If you are going to hookup (an I’m all for this) why not hookup with potential boyfriends instead?

        10. Evan Marc Katz

          You clearly don’t understand women, EZ. Maybe that’s why you’re here. To listen, instead of telling women how insecure guys think about sex.

        11. ezamuzed

          I’m here because I have what seems like a  insatiable curiosity about relationships and intersexual dynamics. I’m mostly listening and occasionally contributing.

          I feel like I do understand a lot about woman but clearly not as much as you do. So fill me in and tell me why woman do this. Or maybe point me to some other post or link.

          But I’m not even sure what you are arguing. Because you suggest in the blog post that woman set the boundary: “you won’t have sex without commitment” but here in the comments you seem suggesting that boundary but only for potential boyfriends. Is that right? If so then the boundary really should be communicated honestly: “I won’t have sex with potential boyfriends without commitment” Then the guy can make a decision if he wants to continue pursing or not.

        12. ezamuzed

          @Evan,

          I don’t see anything on that link that suggests that woman make potential boyfriends wait for sex while simultaneously hooking up with other guys.

          Only an insecure guy would accept such an arrangement. Secure guys will drop a woman to the curb who don’t find them physically attractive enough to have sex with compared to some random hookup guy they met at a bar a few nights before.

        13. Evan Marc Katz

          This is a waste of my time. Please, Go Your Own Way.

        14. Clare

          ezamused,

          If you’re going to be “perplexed” by me, at least get your facts straight.

          I have a boyfriend whom I am sleeping with on a regular basis.

          I am not hooking up with random strangers.

          Where in God’s name did you get this idea?

        15. ezamuzed

          @Evan,

          Please, Go Your Own Way.  If that somehow means I should join MGTOW No thanks, I have a wonderful girlfriend of almost a year now and for the 4 years before that I was happily out there dating  and had lots of fun and met some fantastic woman.

          I happen to think MGTOW is full of lazy men who just want to complain. Rather than complaining they should work on becoming better man so they can get more of what they want out of life.

          As for your advice on boundaries for women if it is:  “I won’t have sex with any man without a commitment” I think that is solid. But if it is: “I won’t have sex with potential boyfriends without a commitment but will with other men” I think that is awful.

        16. Evan Marc Katz

          You mean she doesn’t have the right to do whatever she wants because it doesn’t suit YOUR needs? Got it.

        17. ezamuzed

          @Clare

          I am so sorry, I got you mixed up with someone else.

          Really it was  Lauren’s comment. Perhaps she will comment one why she thinks it is right to make boyfriend material men wait for sex but not other guys.

        18. ezamuzed

          You mean she doesn’t have the right to do whatever she wants because it doesn’t suit YOUR needs? Got it.

          Is your ego that big that you need to disparage me for disagreeing with you? This has nothing to do with rights or MY needs. I just think it is bad advice that will hurt people in the long run.

           

        19. Evan Marc Katz

          This isn’t about ego. This is about truth, logic and integrity. You come to my website, make some harebrained statement to women readers that while men can have sex with whomever they want whenevr they want, women cannot because each and every man deserves to get laid faster than the previous man… but I have no right on my own site to rebut that nonsense to women? Please. If you don’t like when someone contradicts your hypocrisy in a public forum, then don’t post hypocrisy in a public forum.

        20. ezamuzed

          @evan

          … You come to my website, make some harebrained statement to women readers that while men can have sex with whomever they want whenevr they want, women cannot because each and every man deserves to get laid faster than the previous man…  

          Well that would be a terrible and misogynistic statement to make and would deserve ridicule. But I never made any such statement and looking back on my messages I cannot see anywhere were I might be inferring that.

          I’ve only ever said that making potential boyfriends wait for sex while simultaneously having NSA sex with other men is a bad idea. It is bad idea if you are hoping to land that boyfriend. And it is a bad idea for the long term health of the relationship if you end up turning that guy you made wait into your boyfriend.

        21. shaukat

          that while men can have sex with whomever they want whenevr they want, women cannot because each and every man deserves to get laid faster than the previous man…

          Difference being though, the vast majority of men will not have a separate time table in terms of when they sleep with a potential gf vs a hook up. Most men would be happy to sleep with someone they could see committing to on the first or second date.

          Just to add my thoughts to this topic, I couldn’t care less (from an ego standpoint) if the woman I’m dating slept with me on the fifth date but the guy before me on the second–any number of factors or variables could explain that difference. However, I will say from experience that if a woman generally doesn’t mind sleeping with guys quickly but is making you wait six weeks or something it’s a bad sign–usually means she not that into you but is hoping the physical chemistry grows with time. In such a scenario I would pre-emptively terminate.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *