Do Tall Men Get Laid More?

Do Tall Men Get Laid More
8 Shares

Read enough relationship on the Internet and you’ll often hear a strain of men who complain that women are too focused on height. Their belief is that all women only go for the tallest, hottest, richest guys around – and that no one else even stands a chance.

And let’s face it: it IS harder being a shorter guy. Go to any online dating site, put that you’re 5’5″ and listen for the crickets. But, thankfully, online dating isn’t the only way to meet women, and thankfully, we have studies that can either confirm or deny our hypotheses.

Well, in an Elle/MSNBC Sex/Love Survey of over 60,000 people, the old trope that tall guys get  MUCH more action than the rest of us  has summarily been put to rest.

All things considered – it’s seen as advantageous to be tall, in practical terms, it seems like shorter than average guys end up doing just fine.

Per Susan Walsh at Hooking Up Smart:

The man who is 5’2”³ has a mean number of 8 sexual partners. The 5’4”³ guy has 10. And all the guys between 5’7”² and 6’2”³ have 11-12 partners.

Taken further, Walsh (and Mona Chalabi at 538) concludes that the mean  number of sex partners is consistent except for men under 5’4″.

So while – all things considered – it’s seen as advantageous to be tall, in practical terms, it seems like shorter than average guys end up doing just fine. Which makes sense, given that someone has to father other shorter than average guys in the future.

Join our conversation (304 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 41
    Emily

    Obsidian,

    I get a lot of flak for turning down dates, too. It unnerves people if you aren’t grabbing at whatever’s in front of you or would rather be alone until you meet someone you are genuinely interested in. Heaven help you if you are just going through a period in your life in which you are just not interested in dating.

    1. 41.1
      Adrian

      Emily,

      I can not speak to your experiences, but from what I have observed, the only people who “get a lot of flak” for turning down dates and are called too picky are the people who complain about being single all the time, but whenever a chance to go on date arrives, they refuse it.

       

      I am not saying you are doing this, I am just saying that like Karl R’s story about his wife, sometimes the things we refuse to compromise on are seen as petty reasons to reject a potentially good date by others. It is okay to be picky, others just don’t want to hear that picky person always bemoaning their loneliness.

       

      I have to say though, from your post on this site, I can tell that you are willing to date outside of your desirability range, and you have given chances to men whom you were not attracted to. So maybe in your case when you catch flak it is because people expect you to live by the “do as we say not as we do” method.

       

      What I mean Emily is, from what I have observed, almost every man and woman will not seriously date (or give a chance to) someone whom they have no physical attraction for, but when they are in a relationship, they forget this and expect their “picky” single friends to forget about physical attraction and just focus on an attractive personality. They want us to do what they refused to do, fall in love with someone whom we have no desire to even kiss.

       

      The other possible option is (and remember I don’t know you, I am just mentioning a possibility), people give flak to those who turn down dates because they feel that someone whom is not that attractive should be happy to take whatever they can get. Again, I am not saying this is true for you, I am just pointing out a reason why people do this.

      1. 41.1.1
        Caroline

        @Adrian and Emily,

        I agree with Adrian on his point about most folks giving flak about being single to the ones who constantly bemoan their situation.

        But I also recall reading that most people perceive themselves as 7s when in reality they are 5s. It’s math. And in reality they most likely are 7s when you factor in personality but unfortunately initially one is not judged but by their appearance and body language.

        I know as,a woman, I’ve found that just by the more interaction with say a co-worker; I find him substAntially more attractive if he’s witty, personable, charming, etc. It’s like a slow burn after each interaction whereas if we just passed on the street I may not have even noticed him.

      2. 41.1.2
        Emily

        I probably am too picky, but here’s a question for men: Do you want a woman to say yes to a date with you if she knows going into it that she has no attraction for you? Are you glad she has given you a chance or would you rather she said no?

      3. 41.1.3
        Karmic Equation

        Emily,

        I’m not a guy, but I”m going to answer anyway.

        I wouldn’t suggest your saying “yes” to a date with a man you know you’re definitely not attracted to.

        However, I would suggest your going out with men who you’re not sure you’re attracted to.

        You shouldn’t hold out to date only men  you know you’re attracted to.

        A date is just a date, not a lifetime commitment. If after a date or two or three with a “not sure” guy, one you become sure you’ll never be attracted to him, then don’t agree to another date.

        I had a date with a cute guy and thought he was nice, we had a good time. So I agreed to a second date. I had an ok time and made out with him in the parking lot before driving home. We went on a third date. While I thought he was still cute, it took me until that third date to decide that I would never be happy in a relationship with him.  So I said no to a 4th date.

        He was still cute, but our three dates spanned 7 weeks and in that time he had changed jobs 3 times. And it  seemed to me  from the way he described how he quit his jobs that he had a problem with authority. He was negative about a few things, too, that I didn’t like. So it took three dates for me to learn enough about his character to make a decision if he was boyfriend worthy or not. Physically, he was still attractive, but compatibility-wise, we weren’t suited. So I declined the 4th date.

        OTOH, when I was in college, there was a guy who I thought was “ok” looking. Then as we grew to be friends and l learned more about his character, he become “very handsome” in my eyes. Objectively, he was cute, but I was neutral about his looks until I got to know him better. We never dated since he had a girlfriend.

        The point is that attraction can grow if you’re attraction-neutral about guy to start. You don’t have to wait until you’re sure there will be fireworks to date someone. In fact, I would highly recommend dating mostly men you’re attraction-neutral about. Because then you’re not blinded by chemistry on those dates and will pay more attention to his character and behavior.

      4. 41.1.4
        Karl R

        Emily asked: (#40.1.1.3)

        “here’s a question for men: Do you want a woman to say yes to a date with you if she knows going into it that she has no attraction for you?”

         

         

        As a man, I’ll save myself some time with this answer.   I agree completely with Karmic Equation’s answer (#40.1.1.4).   It’s also  advice for men too.

      5. 41.1.5
        Not Again

        @Emily — I’m not a man but wanted to weigh (if you don’t mind) because it got me thinking about another frequent topic  that comes up about men and women and  their differences in how they view attraction.

        I agree with Karmic Equation. FWIW, when I first met my husband, the attraction was there but minimal. On a scale of 1-10 (since we love numbered rating systems here) let’s say a 6 , maybe a 7.  Enough to want to see where  it went but not so much that I was swooning.  Over the course of a few  months, the attraction grew a lot stronger.

        Many women have referred to him over the years  as  handsome. I certainly thought so, that  was never the issue. But I found my attraction to him grew in proportion to experiencing  his personality and character.

        I believe this is the difference. We’ve all heard the OKCupid study where women rated all but 20% of the of men as unattractive.

        This is shocking, I think, to many men, because attraction  is about  beauty and a nice  personality (I’m generalizing of course).

        For many women,  attraction is as much as if not more about his intelligence, character,  and let’s be honest, his position in society.

        The former can be assessed pretty quickly. The latter takes some time to assess.

        As much I dislike people attributing EVERYTHING to  evo psych, this is one I  pretty much  agree with. It does make sense from an evolutionary perspective.

         

        In  other words, many average looking men with great qualities can become very attractive to women but it can take some time.

        Just my opinion.

      6. 41.1.6
        Buck25

        @Emily,

        My short answer to your initial question, is NO!   If you know you feel zero attraction to me, I’d rather you didn’t “give me a chance”; it’s a waste of time for both of us. If it’s more of a “not sure” thing, then I agree with Karmic and Not again, simply because the initial information you get from online is limited; take a chance; I (or you) might be more likable/attractive in real life, and the only way to know is to meet.

        @Not again,

        I absolutely concur; a lot of things that a woman might find attractive in a man, beyond looks, don’t necessarily come across online. intelligence, you can usually get a pretty good read on; but the other qualities you mention are another matter. Unless a man’s profession is something that automatically confers some status in the community (a surgeon, for example) it’s almost impossible to convey one’s social standing without appearing crass, or bragging. The more successful a man is, often the less he can convey that online without looking like a conspicuous displayer of wealth/status, no matter how he uses that wealth in the community. Let’s just say there are a lot of positives about me, that I would NEVER put in an online profile, because it would actually have a negative impact in that context. I f there’s any way to do that in good taste, I haven’t found it yet. Same with character; anyone can talk about it, but you have to know someone to know if it’s real or fake. All that sometimes makes me (and I suspect some other men), feel like, online, we’re competing with one hand (if not both) tied behind our backs. Quite frustrating, because unless we get to a meeting, we have no way to showcase what may be some of the best things we have going for us, and that makes it harder to get to that meeting in the first place; damned if we do, damned if we don’t. There are likely some functional equivalents for many women, I would think.What I don’t see, is any way around that dilemma. Any further thoughts on that, from your perspective?

      7. 41.1.7
        Not again

        @Buck, good points. I’m far from a online dating expert. I wonder if it’s largely in the presentation. A surgeon who includes simple “I’m a successful doctor”vs a teacher who talks about how fortunate he is to learn as much from his students as he teaches them will screen for different types of women. But again i know little to nothing about online dating so don’t take my word for it 🙂

        also when I say status/position, job is only part of that. For example, an office drone with a go nowhere boring government job may project stability. A man who is taking a risk by quitting his boring job to start a business doing something he loves while less stable demonstrates ambition and a passionate approach to life (generally). I can’t speak for all women but for me ambition, passion and willingness to forge something of his own sets  a man apart from the others.

        To be clear, I’m not saying a man who’s not taking risks with his career is not attractive to women, I’m just saying it’s all in how you look at it. So I would say Buck that if you take pride in what you do, be it your job, your volunteer work or whatever, and you coney that, it can’t be a bad thing. That’s just my opinion.

        PS That said, I don’t begrudge anyone who plays it safe in this economy. I myself have a boring government job, for now, LOL.

    2. 41.2
      Emily

      Obsidian,

      As long as you are making it clear to these women you are not interested, they should leave you alone. I usually say, “No, thank you. Thanks for asking, but no” to turn down a date. It leaves no room for ambiguity. It’s not “No, I have a boyfriend” or “No, I don’t date people I work with.” In other words, there’s no room to think I might change my mind.

      Some people (notice I said “people,” not “men” or “women”) enjoy the attention and will allow the flirtation to go on but know they have no intention of accepting a date if one party asks. This kind of behavior sends mixed signals. I’m not saying you are doing this. I’m just saying I have experienced it.

       

       

  2. 42
    Caroline

    Emily-I know you want men’s opinions but I totally agree with karmic and not agains views. Don’t go out with someone who you just get that gut feeling like “he’ll no” but if you feel neutral go for it! What’s the worst thing that could happen? You might just get a friend out if it.

    1. 42.1
      Emily

      Thank you for your responses to my question. The logical side of me agrees: A woman should take the time to get to know (and give a chance to) men she is either neutral about or has a marginal level of interest in. The romantic side of me disagrees, and that therein lies the problem: Once you have dated people who you were extremely interested in, it becomes difficult to get excited by anything less.

      1. 42.1.1
        Caroline

        Emily-can you not wait for the attraction to build? Or is romance like fast food to you? You won’t wait for the steak dinner to be cooked so you run through drive thru and gotta eat it in the car? So far has this approach worked for you? Have you never met a person who initially you didn’t think much of but turned into a wonderful friend.? Relationships build and mature over time. Maybe like many you’re confusing love with infatuation. By no means, am I saying settle-just give a new approach a chance. What do you got to lose? Give it a chance . It doesn’t mean you have to pursue a relationship with someone who you don’t feel anything for. Best of luck:)

        1. Caroline

          You know Emily-maybe instead of trying to create attraction you might need to cast a wider net by changing your routine up. Try that new place for lunch, alternate coffee shops, learn a new sport, go across town with one girlfriend Friday night instead of meeting all the girls at your regular spot, take a class, change your grocery shopping habits, volunteer, join some kind of group you might be interested in/you get the idea. Make yourself available to wider range of men.Update your online profile. When I was on match, I took a new picture of myself all dressed up for each new date I had and put it as my main pic (deleting an old one). I also had lots of responses from different men when I used that “what’s your idea of a great date”. It shows up before the main body if your profile pretty boldly. I got lots of responses from my idea to have an afternoon of tennis (usually just see how many volleys -not a match), hit a bucket if balls at the golf range, stroll the artists walk on every 2nd Thursday, bocce ball at a place called public, oh and if you’re in a big market-they may have Topgolf (really fun).

        2. Emily

          Caroline,

          I do need to shake my routine up. I am in a bit of a rut, but, to be honest, I am not really in the dating market right now. I am certainly thinking about it and considering things to do to meet more men when I am ready.

          Yes, I have met a person I initially didn’t think much of but then became a good friend, but that person did not turn into a boyfriend. I think there has to be some initial attraction. Attraction can grow as you get to know the person or die out if you find you don’t like the man, but I don’t know that it can be created.

           

  3. 43
    Caroline

    Emily-I get it.   There’s an article in psychology today online by the phd who wrote deeper dating.   It’s about developing attraction. Very interesting! He makes the case that lasting relationships are born out of the mid range of attraction. He says that the attraction where you feel huge chemistry are the ones who crash and burn. (Many of us have experienced this).   It’s based on the theory that the people you feel the most attraction for are whichever parent you have issues with/ because you’re seeking the approval you never got as a child. I personally faced this in therapy after my divorce. It was a good read. You might enjoy the article.

    1. 43.1
      Karmic Equation

      I agree with Caroline, Emily.

      You should read “Attached” by Amir Levine. He’s the one who writes about “activated attachment systems.” Very interesting.

      The other books I found fascinating were “Mating in Captivity” by Esther Perel, and “Sex at Dawn” by Christopher Ryan.

      I would highly recommend the Ms. Perel’s book if you’ve found that when the sizzle leaves your relationship, the relationship ends. Her theory that “total transparency” in relationships kills the romantic spark between couples is dead-on in my opinion.

      1. 43.1.1
        KK

        Ms. Perel also condones cheating.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          I haven’t read the book, but I would guess that Ms. Perel doesn’t encourage “cheating” – unknowingly going behind someone’s back for a sexual affair. What she probably advocates is what Dan Savage advocates – an open, commonsense approach to keeping sexual desire high despite the normal waning of desire in a long-term relationship. That may mean an occasional “hall pass” or threesome or porn use – something to keep things spicy so neither party feels the need to stray or stay in a sexless marriage. Now I didn’t read the book, so I may be misinformed, but that is would I would assume her message would be.

        2. Karmic Equation

          In Mating in Captivity, she does NOT condone cheating. Perhaps she is coy when she is presenting on this topic live to audiences?

          What she DOES say in her book is that cheating may not necessarily need to cause a relationship to end.

           

        3. KK

          Hi Evan. I wasn’t referring to her views on open relationships. Only her views on cheating. Maybe a better choice of words would be that she is a cheater apologist. Dan Savage falls into that category as well. I haven’t read books by either but I have read some of their articles. Esther Perel glorifies cheating as if the cheater is somehow this worldly, evolved individual and their hurt spouse is just a simpleton that is unable and unwilling to understand their spouse’s needs. There’s lots of gray in this world but there is also plenty of black and white. Cheating is wrong under any circumstances. (Again, I’m not talking about open relationships). Cheaters cheat because of selfishness and a lack of empathy towards their spouse.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          I agree and am firmly against cheating. But you’d have to be blind and deaf not to realize that humans are not wired for 50 years of monogamy. So if we choose marriage, what’s the best way to keep the sexual relationship in tact? I’ve written about that before over the years, but I don’t think it’s always as simple as “try harder! try a hotel! try role playing! try a new position!” Attraction wanes over time. Newness is always exciting. Perel smartly acknowledges this instead of pretending it’s not true.

        5. Christine

          I haven’t read the book, but out of curiosity I googled a few of Ms. Perel’s articles on “rethinking infidelity”–and in those, I got the same impression as KK that she justifies cheating.   In a nutshell, she basically encourages us not to condemn cheaters on moral grounds, but thinks they’re just poor lost souls (well, someone who knows more about her can correct me if that’s wrong but that’s what I thought).

          I’ll take a pass on her book. However, the other books do sound interesting so thanks for the suggestions Karmic.

           

        6. Emily

          I have read articles about Esther Perel. She advocates that cheating doesn’t necessarily mean the relationship is over or that something is fundamentally missing in the relationship. She says people cheat not because they want to trade in their partner but because they don’t like the person they themselves have become. It’s not about sex but about desire. In the affair, they are reintroduced to a part of themselves they’ve haven’t experienced in a while or a part they never knew existed.

        7. Christine

          Thanks for that comment KK, I also got that same impression from reading her articles (I tried to be openminded but got truly repelled by them).   If, as Karmic said, she were just saying that it is possible to overcome cheating and rebuild a relationship, I am all for that.

          However, she just goes too far for me in the way she seems to put affairs in a positive light (even calls them acts of “exuberant defiance”–or how they’re the cheaters’ evolved ways of reconnecting with “lost parts” of themselves).

          I can understand feeling unfulfilled or lost in a relationship at some point.   But affairs are not the way to resolve such feelings.   You can “reconnect with lost parts” of yourself through other ways besides cheating.

        8. Karmic Equation

          Christine & KK,

          The Bible as a whole is pretty hmmm…stupid? Who really believes that humans were created on the 7th day of God’s life.

          That said there are good things within the Bible. You just can’t get hung up on the irrelevant parts or parts that you don’t believe in.

          I read Ms. Perel’s  book and, found that overall, it was an enlightening read. it was not focused on cheating. Cheating is an aspect of relationships she had to touch upon.

          I don’t believe in cheating, but I’m open to the idea that it can be forgiven.

        9. Christine

          Karmic, okay, I can see your point not to get hung up on one particular point and miss out on other parts of something that could be more relevant and/or useful to me.   Maybe this will turn out to be like the Lori Gottlieb situation (I hated one of her articles yet found her book to be more nuanced and helpful–this could be the same thing)

           

        10. Evan Marc Katz

          It’s EXACTLY like the Marry Him situation. People pull a soundbite out of context and dismiss an entirely well-researched book because they disagree with either the conclusion or the perception of the conclusion. It was like the NRA reacting to Obama’s executive order on gun control before it even came out. It didn’t attack the Second Amendment. It just insisted on background checks for gun sellers and enforcing laws instead of allowing loopholes. That’s it. But 50% of the population doesn’t want to hear it so they turn it into a straw man to knock down.

    2. 43.2
      Emily

      I have read the article you mentioned before. I thought it was interesting.

      I probably need to be more honest with myself about what I’m looking for. If I am ready to get serious and look for a commitment-minded man, I need to weigh other qualities more heavily than attraction.

      I would like to have some hot sex before I get off this planet.   🙂   And I have always had the hottest sex with the people I’m most attracted to. But, yes, the people to whom I am most attracted tend to not be good long-term partners. Therein lies the issue.

      1. 43.2.1
        KK

        @Evan,
        Maybe I am just a freak that is hard wired for monogamy. Or maybe it’s something I’ve consciously chosen. I completely understand that in a long term relationship, attraction fades, etc, etc. That does not mean that I will be hopping into bed with the hot, new guy at the office because I find him attractive. It’s called self control. I don’t want an open relationship and I don’t want to cheat or be cheated on, so what’s the solution if I find myself attracted to someone else? Put aside my convictions, indulge, and let the chips fall where they may? Or deny myself the temporary pleasure which will surely result in pain and (most often) irreparable damage? I’m not an animal. I have will power. I choose to remain faithful.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          As do I, Kristi. Humans are not wired for monogamy, yet most of us choose it anyway. My point is to acknowledge that instead of pretending otherwise. I have never cheated. I will never cheat. But in an alternate universe, I wish I could have my cake and eat it, too. Unfortunately, the consequences are too great. Thus the title: Mating in Captivity. Marriage is wonderful, but it’s also not biological. So how can couples navigate this tricky space together instead of growing apart?

        2. KK

          Obsidian,

          You’ve completely missed the point. I disagree with what you said, but let’s just say you’re right (for arguments sake). What do humans have that other animals do not? Willpower. The more you exercise self control, the more human you are. The more you give in to any and every temptation, the more animalistic you are. THAT was the point.

      2. 43.2.2
        Christine

        I do get it Emily–I really have been there and done that!   I do understand that that intense attraction is a very powerful feeling, almost like a drug (and often, just as bad for you!)

        However, then I always inevitably had a horrible crash-and-burn afterwards.   There was never any sex hot enough to be worth it.   I mean, even that climatic moment lasts, what, a few seconds?   (or who knows, maybe it should have been longer and I did something really wrong LOL)   But a steady relationship will last longer than that, so it needs to be based on more enduring qualities.

        The good long-term partners often don’t give you quite that same level of “high”.   However, they also won’t give you the horrible “lows” either.   After getting burned too many times by the crazy-inducing attraction, I finally had enough (sort of like how I overindulged during the holidays like most people, and am now munching on carrots to get back on track).   Then I managed to find the right fit for me, with just the right level of attraction and a lot of compatibility.   I think you’ll do the same.

         

        1. KK

          Bravo, Christine! Well said! 🙂

        2. KK

          Wait, Evan… That is my question for you! Lol!

          Please give us the secret 🙂

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          The secret: try reading Mating in Captivity with an open mind instead of dismissing because you don’t agree with her conclusions. 🙂

        4. Tom10

          @ Christine #43.2.2
          “The good long-term partners often don’t give you quite that same level of “high”.   However, they also won’t give you the horrible “lows” either.   After getting burned too many times by the crazy-inducing attraction, I finally had enough”
            
          It’s fascinating to read of your experiences from the other side Christine. Guys have to weigh up this attraction dichotomy as well, except with the short-term/long-term attraction intensities flipped.
            
          As a lot more guys want casual than women do, more often than not, we have to/are prepared to, sacrifice that “crazy-inducing attraction” feeling to get it. Which partly explains why we chase/require it so much when seeking our long-term partners.
            
          I’m not sure which side has it worse/better. Hmm…

        5. Not again

          makes sense Christine but for many people accepting a life without that passion is just too difficult. Ideally people who can’t just wouldn’t get married in the first place. Problem is everyone gets married thinking they’re different and can’t imagine their feelings will ever change or that something will change that will make them incompatible.  Despite much evidence around them that it’s likely it will.

          @Tom, I see the problem as less about people resigning to marry people they aren’t attracted to in exchange for stability, and more people being crazy attracted to each other in the beginning and not wanting to acknowledge or even being consciously aware that it probably won’t last forever. My guess would be a much larger percentage of divorces fall in the second category.

           

        6. Emily

          Normal
          0

          false
          false
          false

          EN-US
          X-NONE
          X-NONE

          /* Style Definitions */
          table.MsoNormalTable
          {mso-style-name:”Table Normal”;
          mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;
          mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;
          mso-style-noshow:yes;
          mso-style-priority:99;
          mso-style-parent:””;
          mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
          mso-para-margin:0in;
          mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;
          mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
          font-size:10.0pt;
          font-family:”Times New Roman”,serif;}

          Christine,

          That’s funny that you mentioned eating carrots in your post. I was thinking of a food analogy as well. The crazy-inducing attraction choice (a diet high in sugar, salt and caffeine) versus a dependable, reliable partner (a healthy diet where the blood sugar stays constant). Makes sense, and what you wrote is true: Everyone must find the right balance.

          Tom,

          Are you saying that men sacrifice the crazy-inducing attraction feeling for the opportunity to have casual sex? Meaning that you don’t have to be all that into the person physically to have sex with her? However, you require the crazy-inducing attraction only for long-term partners     ?

        7. Tom10

          @ Not again
          You’re probably correct that your second category summarizes how a significant proportion of the dating population met/got married/got divorced.
            
          @ Emily
          Yes, I believe that’s how a significant proportion of men operate when dating.
            
          Do any other men agree/disagree with this position?
            
          (P.S. did you copy n paste your text from somewhere else into that last comment? Lol.)

        8. Emily

          Tom,

          Yes! 🙂 I did copy and paste my text from someplace else. I like to run it through a spell check.

          Women do the same thing, though. Have casual sex with men they aren’t all that moved by physically. One’s standards tend to be lower for one-nighters, and just because a woman goes home with a man doesn’t mean she’s ga ga over him. Sometimes it’s just that   he is available and willing.   I had, however, thought the general consensus on Evan’s blog in the last few posts was not to look for the crazy-inducing attraction for either short or long-term prospects. To make choices based more on personality and character.

        9. Caroline

          Agreed- very well said Christine. Everyone is on their own path at their own pace. Regrets are the worst. Experience and fulfill what you desire most. Just realize what you want today will probably not be what you want in the future but you gotta experience those things first to realize what’s most important to you. That doesn’t mean sex can’t be hot with someone who sticks around 🙂

      3. 43.2.3
        KK

        @Karmic,

        I won’t even comment on your interpretation of the bible in order to not start a new debate. Lol.

        But I do get your overall point. And I agree you shouldn’t always throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak.

        However, in Perel’s case, I just don’t care for her. I have read her views on relationships and they just don’t ring true for me. If they ring true to others, go for it. As a rule, I try to stay open minded when reading anything a psychologist has to say, then I put it through a filter of, does this make sense to me or is this just a theory that is filled with a bunch of psychobabble? I realize she is very popular and held in high regard by some. I just don’t buy her theories. Just my personal opinion, of course. 🙂 Take care.

        1. KK

          @Evan,

          You’re recommending the book you haven’t read? Okay, fair enough, I guess…

        2. KK

          @Evan,

          Will do 🙂

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          It’s actually on a LOOONG to-read list I have so I can be a more informed coach.

  4. 44
    Emily

    Obsidian,

    “I’m sorry Emily, but what you’ve stated here simply does not comport with the facts scientifically. David Buss, among a great many others, have doucmented repeatedly throughout the Western world’s cultures in particular, where women have been much more likely to engage in short term casual sexual encounters the more physically attractive the man in question is. Indeed, women during their ovulation cycles are more apt to do this than when they’re not ovulating.”

     

    I have personally gone home with men I wasn’t that into physically and I know my girlfriends have, too.   I heard their stories on the morning of the day after. It happens.

     

    1. 44.1
      Karl R

      Emily and Obsidian

      I believe you are both correct (except to the extent you claim the other is wrong).   Women are more likely to have a one night stand with a more attractive man than with a less attractive man … assuming equal availability of both.   And I believe I’ve even seen the study that indicated that it was more likely to be true during ovulation.

      But the term “more likely” implies that women do have one night stands with less attractive men also.

       

      Obsidian,

      Are you actually going to claim that if a woman really wants sex on a given night, and the only men who are interested & available are not particularly attractive, that she’s definitely going to forgo sex since she can’t get it from a hottie?

      She might still prefer a hottie, but you have to play the hand you’re dealt … or fold and go home alone.

      1. 44.1.1
        Emily

        Karl R,

        I haven’t read the particular study you are referring to. If it is referring to a man’s purely aesthetic appeal? I was writing about men I wasn’t particularly attracted to or felt much chemistry with. That can be a completely different person from the man who by traditional standards would be considered attractive by a large percentage of women.

         

  5. 45
    AllHeart81

    “We’re only talking about this weird thing that women have in their heads which states that if he loves you, he should think you’re the most beautiful woman in the world.” – Evan Marc Katz.

    Considering the fact that so many women express this same universal need, how can you suggest that it’s ‘weird’ or somehow ‘off’   in some way? Women aren’t ‘weird’ for wanting their partner to validate their beauty in a way that shows he is willing to circumvent other women. Women have had drilled into their heads since the day they were born that their beauty, or lack of, is extremely important to men. Beauty standards that men continually re-enforce while at the same time expecting it to not matter to his own partner. Many men play into all the stereotypes of society, continually re-enforce beauty ideals in women and place a lot of importance on it; and then turn around not expect their own partners to desire to be validated in ways he’s been validating women since he hit puberty. I’ve had past boyfriends lecture to me about my perceptions of beauty as a woman and then within the hour, are engaging in some activity that totally buys into those same standards. It’s not right for him to expect her to be fully comfortable and accepting of him validating other women’s beauty, to repeatedly indulge in these nuances to society, while expecting her to carry the brunt of the weight and deny her own needs in the face of how he wants his needs met.  

    Most women are not even asking the entire world or other men to validate us. And the women that are? They are posting pictures of their bodies for male validation, or flirting with men out and about..or doing any number of these things seeking confirmation of their beauty. If your partner is eager to confirm the beauty of other women while being ‘honest’ about your own looks, a woman is going to seek confirmation of her beauty with other men. Because being seen as beautiful is intrinsically part of the female experience, for better or for worse. It’s intrinsically a need most women have.  

    Men enjoy feeling masculine in their relationships every bit as much as women enjoy feeing feminine. The world does a really great job of emasculating men and de-feminizing women. All women are asking for here is for men to recognize their need to feel valued and appreciated for her brand of beauty, in a way that won’t leave her having to second guess or stand in the shadow of other women or find fulfillment that at least she is a nice person. If so many women are expressing the same universal need, can we not acknowledge that clearly there is a common thread here that maybe men would be wise to pay attention to?

    In another article, Evan talked about ‘bids’. It may not be the end of the world if your partner thinks other women are more beautiful then you, however, it does play into feeling that your emotional needs are being met with his ‘bid’ or lack of his ‘bid’ here. Over the course of a relationship, if every time an attractive women comes into focus, and every time the same question and answer play out again and again, and you’re repeatedly re-enforcing to your female partner that you find other women attractive, those ‘bids’ add up. They may not be the most important or serious aspects of a relationship, but if you put enough pebbles in your pockets, eventually it’s going to look like you stuck a boulder down there.  

    As far as height in men, I’ve been attracted to all kinds. I have never personally found Brad Pitt very attractive. Even when he was younger. Although obviously I’m socially aware enough to know he objectively posses the elements that are considered attractive by society. On the other hand, I actually find Peter Dinklage rather hot, I am more attracted to him then I ever was to Brad Pitt. I feel chemistry for him even though he doesn’t meet society standards. If you don’t know who that is, goggle him. He is on Game of Thrones. I don’t even watch Game of thrones. But he is married to a woman who a ‘normal’ height.  

    But while I find certain men hot, I’m also not seeking out images of them online, or masturbating to them in my off time. I direct my sexual attention to my partner. Unfortunately, in this day and age, many men, on top of wanting to be brutally honest to their partners about their looks, are seeking out images of very beautiful women and then telling there average looking partner to basically just deal with all his needs while wanting her to retain greater emotional control over her own feelings.  

    A woman wants her partner to think she is beautiful. But when a man is eager to validate the beauty of other women, and the gives his own partner lectures about how she needs to not be so into her own looks or just understand she’s just not as hot as other women, whether said in nice ways or mean ways, that is going to cause some negative ‘bids”.  

    1. 45.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I’m not gonna get into a long thing with you, but I stand by my words. You say: “Women aren’t ‘weird’ for wanting their partner to validate their beauty in a way that shows he is willing to circumvent other women.”

      What you’re missing is that he IS circumventing other women. He’s your BOYFRIEND. He’s attracted to you. He loves you. He tells you you’re beautiful. I’m merely objecting to the idea that he has to lie and say you’re the MOST beautiful or act like there are NO other beautiful women in the world but you. That’s a lie. You know it. I know it. And it’s unfair to expect your partner to play some bullshit game based on your own insecurities.

      Take a listen: https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/the-love-u-podcast/does-your-boyfriend-have-to-think-youre-the-most-beautiful-woman-hes-ever-seen/

    2. 45.2
      N

      I suspect you are projecting this from your own relationship experience.   Men and women in general notice attractive people. I notice a shirtless runner with six-pack and chiseled hamstring. Men do the same with hot women in varying subtleties. Some look at images/porn to masturbate to it. I used to be indifferent to porn until I walked in on my BF. I told him “don’t stop now darling,   keep doing what you’re doing”. Once he’s done, it’s done.

      Now any extremes i.e. ogling hot women and watching porn more than sharing intimacy with you is another issue.

  6. 46
    Remy

    Personally, I think a man’s SMV in terms of physical appearance should take into account both looks and height. The way I see it is that if you look like James Dean or Brad Pitt, your height is irrelevant if you’re anywhere from say 5’7 to 6’2. If you think girls would reject a 5’7.5 heartthrob (think James McAvoy for instance) for a 6’1 guy who’s only a 5 facially, you’re simply not paying attention. Just because all those 6’3 rowers walk across the dance floor like they own the place, dominating every girl in sight doesn’t mean that’s who the girls necessarily desire the most. Girls, left entirely to their own devices, want pretty boys the most. Plain and simple.

    Now for guys who are a little shorter, say 5’5 to 5’7, who are exceptional facially, maybe you can dock a point from their SMV, but I wouldn’t go much further than that. So Dave Franco, being 5’5/5’6 range with a 9+ face is maybe overall a strong 8 at his height. If you’re like 5’2, then yeah, maybe good looks would be for nought, but not at 5’5-5’7.

    In all honesty, I think a lot of short guys write themselves off before they even enter the pool, having listened to conventional wisdom, and that lack of self-confidence will put them at a distinct disadvantage regardless.

    1. 46.1
      jister

      “Girls, left entirely to their own devices, want pretty boys the most. Plain and simple.”

      Couldn’t agree more. And I believe that left entirely to their own devices(no patriarchy, monogamy, capitalism, etc.), women would mainly be sleeping with guys under the age of 20. Literally, “pretty boys.” Take a look at the news and notice how 13-14 year old boys, who lack height, money, social status, dominance, etc. often score with the hottest 20something and 30something women. A short, scrawny, broke, shy 30 year old man can’t even get the ugliest women. This is very telling about the nature women’s sexual preference.

  7. 47
    Remy

    I know many will go to the mat challenging me on this, but based on what I observe “in the street”, I don’t really notice 5’6/5’7 guys being at a massive disadvantage vis-a-vis the 5’10+ cohort. I do, however, think a lot of tall men walk around with a sense of entitlement and are therefore more aggressive in their pursuit of women, which is a mitigating factor resulting in more sexual partners, “mitigating” since it’s unrelated to female desire itself.

  8. 48
    Remy

    Another thing to consider is there are far more men who are 6’0+ regardless of looks and/or who make six figures than there are men who look like James Dean at any height from 5’4 to 6’2. So it’s understandable that most men would harp on whether or not they’re tall enough, rich enough, and so on.

  9. 49
    jister

    The importance of height is way overblown. If height was so important, there wouldn’t be so many attractive grown women risking their careers and freedom just to have sexual relationships with boys as young as 13-14. Go check out the average height of boys at that age. What’s important is cute looks. A “cute” 5’4″ 14 year old is much more likely to get laid than the vast majority of 6’0″ guys.

  10. 50
    Jacen Solo

    I agree with Emily and Karl, but perhaps we can all come to some sort of compromise that prevents any further conflict between the genders. Maybe if we all pretend that we all live in a world where sexism doesn’t exist, then the few of us that don’t believe in sexism will respond more positively to each other.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *