How Can You Take Your Pants Off Without Having Sex?

How Can You Take Your Pants Off Without Having Sex?
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Evan,

In your book “Why He Disappeared,” on page 63, you write. “just because you invite him inside doesn’t mean you have to sleep with him, just because your pants are off doesn’t mean you have to sleep with him.” (!!!) (What???) I was a virgin when I married at twenty years old. My ensuing 40-year marriage was completely monogamous, but I was widowed three years ago. At this point in my life, *Virtue* is the one quality that I am so sure of, I feel I no longer have to “prove” it. I am 65 years old but continue to very much want and appreciate sex. I don’t know — with my long and “perfectly virtuous” life — what I need to do as far as “waiting” to have sex is concerned. Your ideas on page 63 of “rounding the bases” makes more sense than anything I’ve ever read. *But* “HOW” can your pants be off and you still won’t have sex? —Carol

Dear Carol,

I chose this question because what you expressed is a real common sentiment. And it’s a complete and utter fallacy.

“How can I invite him inside without having sex?”
“How can I kiss him without having sex?”
“How can I take my pants off without having sex?”

As if neither of you possesses any measure of self-control about whose penis goes into whose vagina.

Just because you’re both naked and he’s reaching for the condom in his wallet doesn’t mean that you have to have sex.

Honestly, people.

I’m not going to count the number of people I’ve “hooked up with” without having intercourse, but let’s just say it’s more than 50 and less than 4000. How did I manage to pull off this stupendous feat of full-frontal fortitude?

Well, sometimes, when we were making out on her couch, she’d say something like, “I’m so turned on right now, but we have to stop.” And I’d kiss her for another fifteen minutes and reach up the back of her shirt again, and she’d move my hand back to somewhere she felt appropriate. And I’d take the hint.

Sometimes, she’d declare that she was having fun, but that she had an early morning the next day and that I had to go.

Sometimes, we’d have our shirts off and I would reach for her belt buckle and she’d stop me and grab for mine.

Sometimes, we’d dry hump until it was painful and both go home sexually dissatisfied.

Sometimes, we’d both have our pants off and perform various permutations of oral and manual stimulation.

Sometimes, there were orgasms. Sometimes there weren’t.

But in each instance of participating in foreplay with a woman on Date 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5, I would always leave with this feeling:

That was AWESOME. I can’t WAIT to do that again.

Refuse to do any of these things (because you don’t DO that), and you’ll find that most men who take you out and make a move on you will feel embarrassed, rejected, emasculated, confused and dispirited.

(Except for maybe the blue balls. Or three straight dates with nothing but kissing. That was a little frustrating.)

Foreplay — as we all used it back in high school before we had intercourse — can be fun, exciting, hot, and yes, even gratifying.

Used as a means of establishing a physical connection while you assess his relationship-worthiness, I think it’s a great tool that women can use to their advantage.

Refuse all forms of foreplay because you don’t DO that (which is within your rights, of course), and you’ll probably find that most men who take you out and make a move on you will feel embarrassed, rejected, emasculated, confused and dispirited.

But to be very clear — you, as a woman, have total control of what you want to happen. And just because you’re both naked and he’s reaching for the condom in his wallet doesn’t mean that you have to have sex.

It’s called self-control, y’all.

And as the rare man who DIDN’T have sex with anyone who wasn’t a girlfriend from 2004 until I met my wife in 2007, I can assure you that providing sexual pleasure while still maintaining some boundaries is an effective and powerful stance.

If you can’t see the line between oral sex and intercourse, I understand. But most people I know can count how many people they’ve slept with. Not so much with the oral sex tally.

Yes, it’s arbitrary, but I’ve used this method (and coached it) to great success over the years. Hope that clears things up a bit, Carol.

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Comments:

  1. 21
    JB

    This is another great topic with an obvious myriad of opinions above me. First let me say that as a guy I do agree with about 99.9% of the advice Evan gives on this blog and in his practice. What absolutely blows my mind is the amount of TV shows there’s been on this summer with so called “Match Makers”, “Dating experts”, and other advice type shows filled with goofballs(“Miss Advised” anyone…???) and they don’t hold a candle to Evan and his expertise. What I’m trying to say is Hollywood is missing the boat. Evan should have his own TV show. They even gave Steve Harvey one starting today because of his so so book he wrote. Evan, you need a better agent!

    Anyway the topic at hand…. As someone that’s been dating ohhhh about 32 yrs now Evans’ right men just want to see things “progressing” over time. Every couple has their own “timetable”… depending on age, life circumstances, beliefs, goals,   etc… and that’s fine.

    @ KTR #10 brought up a good point about making a commitment to someone BEFORE you’ve had intercourse only to find out that you have bad chemistry like I did last year and had to end it after 15 dates  because of  no sexual chemistry. We waited about 12 dates. Like someone above me said it’s different for different age goups. She’s in her 40’s and I’m a little older so I’m no hurry and don’t have any “timetable rules” per se it’s always different depending on a lot of variables. Suffice to say at my age I haven’t had intercourse on a third date or earlier in many years nor have I wanted to but I love to make out.  (except for  one incredible one night stand with a woman from out of town but that doesn’t count…lol that had nothing to do with “dating”) Sure anyone can wait until you’re exclusive to have intercourse but there’s no guarantee of KEEPING someone after you’ve made that pact. You still have to have something to sustain it.

    You see what’s rarely talked about is the “skin starvation” factor meaning sometimes people at my age can wake up  and figure out….not only have I not had sex in months I can’t remember the last time I actually made out with someone or passionately kissed someone whether I was wildly attracted or not. So it’s not always about the “orgasm” which we can all give ourselves, sometimes it’s just about the affection/foreplay that we all crave and love. Pants on or off!

  2. 22
    Karmic Equation

    @JB 22 You see what’s rarely talked about is the “skin starvation” factor meaning sometimes people at my age can wake up  and figure out….not only have I not had sex in months I can’t remember the last time I actually made out with someone or passionately kissed someone whether I was wildly attracted or not. So it’s not always about the “orgasm” which we can all give ourselves, sometimes it’s just about the affection/foreplay that we all crave and love. Pants on or off!

    Well said. There’s no age restrictions up or down for the “skin starvation” factor. I would absolutely agree that that is why we need to have sex. Orgasms can be self-delivered. Skin on skin, yeah, we need another body for that!

  3. 23
    Wendy

    @Karmic Equation #20 (and anyone else who insists people can  quickly and easily determine  good guys from bad guys), I give you this:

    The BTK Killer, Dennis Rader, killed 10 people in Wichita, Kansas over a 30-year period. He was married with two children, a Boy Scout leader, employed as a local government official and was the president of his church congregation.

    The Green River Killer, Gary Ridgway confessed to killing 48 women over a 20-year period in the Seattle, Washington area. He was married, held the same job for 32 years, attended church regularly and read his Bible at home and at work.

    Robert Yates killed 17 prostitutes in the 1990s in the Spokane, Washington area. He was married, had five children, lived in a middle-class neighborhood and was a decorated U.S. Army National Guard helicopter pilot.

    Please stop telling us our goodguy-dar is defective just because you’ve been lucky. As someone who has been raped, I can ASSURE you–it’s not as simple as you think, and caution is never a bad thing.

  4. 24
    Julia

    @wendy if you think every guy is a killer just never leave the house. You can know a man for years and he can kill you, hell you could get in your car to leave work today and die on the way home. Fear can’t be something that controls you, period.

  5. 25
    Almita

    @Wendy #24     Thank you for the  reality check.

    I recently went out with two different men. At the end of the first date with each man, I  said goodbye by  kissing the man on the mouth (not an open mouth French kiss, but a kiss on the mouth). Both  men asked me for second dates.

    On the second  dates, both men were constantly trying to kiss and grope me, even though we were in very public places (in a restaurant,  on a sidewalk in  front of open shops, in a parking lot, in a city park where there was an event with hundreds of people).   I felt that if these men had such  little sense of  boundaries in terms of  access to my body  when we were in a public place then they would have no sense of boundaries if we were in private.    

    In the end,  the first  man did not contact me again.   The second man did ask me for a third date, which I declined.                    

  6. 26
    Heather

    @ Wendy,

    As a fellow rape and domestic abuse survivor, I can totally understand your caution and pain.

    It’s easy for others to sit and judge when they have no clue what it is like.   Sure, we should not let our fears and our past ruin our future.   But still, some caution and nervousness is hard-wired, and for good reason.  

    It is perfectly OK to be cautious with men you don’t know.   No, we don’t have to interrogate each guy we come across, but using wisdom and caution is never, ever a bad thing.   I learned valuable lessons from the nightmares I endured and I am much more thoughtful, careful, and pay a LOT more attention to red flags now, than I ever did.   I was so blind to caution flags certain guys would send up, and I got hurt.   Now, I watch and pay attention.   I’d check in with a friend on a first date.   Go to a public place, and say, “NO!!!” if a guy tried something on me that I was not comfortable with and it scared me.

  7. 27
    Wendy

    @Julia #25: I’m not saying every guy is a murderer/rapist and we should all stay at home with the doors locked for the rest of our lives, for heaven’s sake! I’m responding to the folks on here who claim to be able to know a person within 15 minutes of meeting him/her. It’s ridiculous and potentially dangerous advice to tell someone to get therapy to “fix” themselves because they’re cautious-types and choose to be aware of their surroundings. I guess you think women who take self-defense courses are nut jobs, too. Someone is sexually assaulted in the U.S. every TWO MINUTES. That equates to approximately 208,000 per year, and almost 40% occur at the hands of someone the victim considers a friend or acquaintance. Do you think these THOUSANDS of women all just have broken goodguy-dar? I pray it never happens to you, but it is a possibility that shouldn’t be so blithely dismissed.

    Those of us who exhibit a reasonable amount of caution are not crazy phobics, and frankly I’m tired of being called one because I don’t jump in the sack with somebody before I even know his name. Good luck to you.

    1. 27.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      What a shame that this thread has devolved into a discussion of rape, instead of the genuinely useful topic of what to expect sexually from the dating process. No one is minimizing rape or sexual assault here. But you can’t make every discussion about sex come back to the perceived threat of violence. I mean, you CAN, but it’s just an endless loop for the vast majority of men who have never assaulted a woman. So please, if you have something to add about the original post on how you can use foreplay before having intercourse, I’d love to hear what you have to say. If you’re going to continue to imply that foreplay can’t be used – because some douche called you a cocktease and therefore men are scary and dangerous – well, then you can probably keep those comments to yourselves. You’re entitled to your feelings, but it’s not remotely constructive to continue to instill fear in a conversation about the 99% of dates where foreplay/sex occur without any violence.

      1. 27.1.1
        snooki

        the fact that you are surprised that your advice turned into a discussion about date rape shows your blind spot as a man. maybe you don’t know women as well as you think you do.

        maybe you are unaware that the most common defense used for rapists is that she was asking for it because she was drinking and/or consented to engage in some form of sexual activity sans penetration. this still happens today. see karmic equation’s ignorant comments on the next page telling a woman poster her friend got raped because she was drunk and wearing the wrong thing.

        maybe you are also unaware that everyone has the right to have their own boundaries. if a woman is uncomfortable with petting etc before she’s ready for sex, thats her right. please stop assuming she’s so stupid she doesn’t understand that a conservative approach to sex might turn off some good guys, that she needs to be reminded to get naked or else. it’s still her right,

        no one is calling all men rapists. the fact the you had to come back with uncited statistics to convince women that rape rarely happens so drop those panties, girl! says a lot about you. there is huge area between trusting no men and trusting all men.

        no one is questioning that petting and foreplay without sex can be fun (and most of us have known that since we were 13).

        the point is everyone has the right to have their boundaries respected and adopt whatever sense of caution they choose to feel safe.

        now given your propensity to censor comments that question or disagree with you, i don’t expect to see this in the comments section. but for once try to listen instead of insisting your answers are always right and must fit every women because after all we are all alike right?!

  8. 28
    Sel

    As someone who has just recently joined the online dating world and just started coming to this site, I would say that Evan’s comments are right on.   Sex, like relationships should be a progression.   I don’t believe in any set number of dates or rules for it but go by how I feel  about the other person and how well I know them.    Of course trust is a given because I will not go on multiple dates with anyone who seems “off”. I’ve been in a serious relationship where we didn’t have sex (but built up to it) for months and one where we had full sex on the third date.    It also  depends on how the dates go because I’ve had  good dates go for  4-6  hours, most of it talking, learning about each other, and enjoying each other’s company.   It’s only natural that at the end of a great date, you want some physical contact and want more as time goes on.   I only have sex when I’m ready and don’t do casual sex.   Most men know the drill and try the the normal progression across multiple dates of light kissing, making out, a little groping, clothing removal, intense contact, and so on. I’ve always felt like I could set the pace though, even if some men are more persistant then others, and never felt unsafe.    I also think men find the build up fun and exciting,  even if they are a little  frustrated.   And, I believe that skill in foreplay is an indication of how good and giving a man is in bed.  

  9. 29
    Karl R

    Wendy, (#24)
    If you treat a man like he’s a potential serial killer (or a rapist), all the decent men will dump you. We’re accustomed to being treated much better than that.

    Two of my most serious relationships were with women who had been raped. They didn’t treat me like I was a potential rapist.

    You can try to justify your paranoia all you want, but the decent men won’t cut you slack. If you went on a first date with a wealthy, successful man, and he treated you like a gold-digger, would you go on a second date with him? No matter how many times he’d been ripped off by women (or how much money he’d lost), you would see no justification in him treating you in that manner.

    I expect common-sense precautions, particularly in online dating where you start out as strangers. But if you can’t move past that stage quickly, you’re sending out all sorts of negative signals.

    Almita said: (#26)
    “I felt that if these men had such  little sense of  boundaries in terms of  access to my body  when we were in a public place then they would have no sense of boundaries if we were in private.”

    That’s correct. This isn’t rocket science. If a man doesn’t respect your boundaries, he’s not one of the good guys. He’s not a safe bet to be alone with.

    And it took you less than two dates to discover this.

  10. 30
    Wendy

    Karl R #31, I’m assuming you haven’t read my response (#28).  

    I am not, nor do I advocate, living in fear because  I KNOW all men are not  murderers/rapists. I am not paranoid and I honestly don’t understand what in  my posts is giving people  that impression.  Do you lock your house before going to bed at night? Does that make you paranoid? I have had good dates, bad dates, GREAT dates, and several turned into quality relationships (including the one I’m in now). I could not have accomplished any of this if I was so fearful and mistreating. Just because I pointed out that there are certain risks a single girl takes when going out alone  with a guy she’s never met, and  that I don’t think 15 minutes is enough time for most of us to know for certain that a man is safe to get into a car with, doesn’t make me a bad person.    

    It was never my intention to  focus on rape, but I don’t appreciate being  misunderstood and need to make sure my message is clear.

    Now, can we please  get back to the post at hand? I think one of the things that’s been missing from many of these posts is simple conversation. If you have a few great dates and things seem to be progressing down that physical path, why not have a talk? Let your date know about your expectations. Ask him  about his.  The  objective is to make sure you’re both on the same page.  Whether  you’re a girl who likes to jump into sex quickly or hold off until he’s officially a “boyfriend,”  why keep him guessing or make him try to figure out your body language? Men aren’t mind readers and often have no idea what we want from them. Just because the last girl they dated had sex on date three doesn’t mean you will (or should) if that’s not right for you, but how else is he going to know that if you don’t tell him? I personally think these conversations can be almost as much fun as the foreplay that follows, and  definitely lets the guy know that I’m interested without undoing so much as one button until we’re both ready.

  11. 31
    Maggie

    Karl R-
    Why is using common sense precautions (like you yourself suggest) “treating a man like a serial killer/rapist”?? I don’t think Wendy suggested she was doing this, you are just jumping to conclusions. And further, do you think that wealthy men are not cautious and observant of ALL new women they date? Of course they are, let’s not be naive! That does not mean that one has to be demeaning. And if a guy is not happy if I don’t want to take my clothes off by the third date for a full-on heavy petting session, then good riddance! The bottom line is that some people are fortunate enough to be asked on a lot of dates, and even if a woman gets a feeling a guy is “a good guy”, one may want to go on more than just 3 dates before going to second or 3rd base- there are just too many options and other guys to explore possibilities with, and also some women are just not comfortable with going to 2nd and 3rd base with simultaneous people. But this is totally off- topic. Can one have their clothes off and not have full-on sex? To me the answers is obviously yes (it’s called 3rd base in case we forgot our HS vocabulary) and (to me) it can happen before commitment but not before the first 6 dates or so. Second base after the 4th date or so. All the boyfriends I’ve had (including the current one) have been top notch in the looks and success department but without the douchebaggery and sense of entitlement some men like them have. So this formula works for me.

  12. 32
    Daphne

    Interesting that I have never met a guy I perceived as disturbed or dangerous on about 30 Match dates. The two most offensive guys were 1) a man I went to college w (and knew slightly, many years ago), who got very harmlessly drunk during the date; and 2) the gazillionaire private equity guy who took one look at me in the foyer of the restaurant **and walked out**.
    I got involved w my ex boyfriend too fast and became a booty call, but never felt in danger going to his house etc.   But as all EMK readers know- that’s what happens w first date sex. I’m sorry that this has turned into a discussion of date rape.

  13. 33
    RW

    @Karl R: I don’t think anyone was actually suggesting treating men like potential rapists.   It’s a given that any man would and should run away if treated with that suspicion from the get-go.   I think the only point being made was that the line between yes and no is a fine one and even after 3, 4 or 5 dates we don’t know how a man is going to react if we fool around for a while and then decide we don’t want to go any further.   Not suggesting he will rape us, just that it might have been better not to go so far if you had no intention of seeing it all the way through.   All depends on the circumstances, I guess.

    Also, “move past that stage quickly” is very subjective.   Not to state the obvious but that is the takeaway here.   If your definition is different from that of the general populace you’re going to get passed over many times before you find your Prince Charming.   BUT, as long as you’re okay with the consequences there is nothing wrong with being different.   I make this point only because the tone of some of the posts above seemed to suggest that the women who were different were silly for not changing themselves and towing the party line.

    I can’t believe that I just read the “having sex is like eating” bit yet again.   Seriously?   No, Paula, they are not the same thing.   You may think they are but they are not.   Believe it or not, it is possible to get through many, many, many years of your life without having sex or even a self induced orgasm.   Not a happy situation maybe but quite a possible one.   The same cannot be said for eating.   Yes you’ll go somewhere else if someone won’t cook for you but you HAVE to eat if you want to survive.   You do not HAVE to have sex.   Yes, it’s healthy, it makes you feel good, blah, blah, blah but it’s still a want.   Nourishing yourself is a need.

    I apologize for the sarcasm but really, I didn’t know how else to respond. I should know better but I can’t resist replying.   I think I deserve some credit for being nice the last time I wrote a rebuttal to that comment 😀

  14. 34
    Evan Marc Katz

    @Wendy #32

    “Let your date know about your expectations. Ask him  about his.”

    You try that and let me know how it goes. Normal people don’t state their expectations on the first date. “Hi, I’m Evan. I’m an intellectual snob and I’m hoping that you read the New York Times cover to cover like I do. I’m also a pretty outspoken liberal who is culturally Jewish but I’m really more of an atheist. Hope that’s cool with you – especially when I want to raise our children Jewish. Oh, and I’m used to going pretty far on first dates, so what do you think? Are we a match?”

    There are people who date like this. They are not the ones you want to see a second time. They’re trying to read the last page of the book without reading the book.

    You don’t discuss what’s going to happen physically on a date. You go on a date. You make a move. You see where it goes – both parties consenting, or not. The idea that you can negotiate this stuff at dinner is tone deaf to normal conventions.

    As for those who feel men are “entitled” like RW, Maggie, and Heather: please pay attention to what I actually wrote. You can do whatever you want physically. No one is judging you or keeping score. Really. Men don’t think, “I’d better get to third base by date 3 or else,” especially if they like you. So I’m encouraging you not to assume that men who try to move faster physically are “bad”, anymore than you should be termed “frigid” for wanting to move slow. They’re both unfair labels, and your inability to see the grey areas between “rapist” and “man who reaches for your belt buckle on Date 4, but is okay if you say no” is the only reason I’m prolonging this conversation.

      

      

  15. 35
    Wendy

    Evan #36: I didn’t say do this on the first date. I said, and I quote: “If you have a few great dates and things seem to be progressing down that physical path, why not have a talk?” For me, this usually happens at home or in the car, not on a public date, and I never said that it did. All of my best relationships have incorporated quality conversation, and all of my failed relationships have been lacking in this area.  Communication is as important to me as compatibility in the bedroom,  so I don’t think there’s anything wrong with  finding out of we can talk effectively early-ish in the dating phase, just like  most everyone else  is making sure they can have good sex early-ish.    

    And by conversation I don’t mean approaching it so matter-of-factly as you have implied. Of course you wouldn’t have made it to the second date with me if that had been your first! I’ve always had so much fun with this part–why is everyone so afraid to talk to each other?  I’m sure we all know by now how women can  overthink things, so body language and mind-reading alone can lead to big misunderstadings.  

    Here’s an example of what I mean, for clarification: I believe it was on the third or fourth date with my current boyfriend (only a few goodnight kisses had been exchanged by this point), I said something along the lines of, “So…what do YOU like to do?” stated with a sly smile. He replied with a big grin and it went from there. We talked that night for about four hours (JUST talked) before he went home. We waited another two dates before having full-on, but we continued that original conversation and added in some physical contact. By the time we actally had sex, the build-up  made it AWESOME.

    Now, a year later, we STILL talk like we did. In fact, I often use this blog for material (“So, what would YOU do if….”). We have FUN with this, and it usually leads to great FUN later in the bedroom.  If no one can see the difference between having some fun sexual banter and  an interrogation, then we really are in trouble!

  16. 36
    Heather

    @ EMK:

    I think you have grossly misunderstood and unfairly judged women like me and Wendy.  

    Please, tell me exactly where and when I said that men are “entitled”?   Seriously?  

    Women can, and damn well SHOULD use common sense precautions when meeting someone new.   I’m not saying that you have a conversation within 10 minutes of meeting “yes, hi there, I’m Heather and I expect sex only after we’ve been dating for a little while.”   Not at all.

    What I AM saying, is that we women do have the right to be careful, cautious, and if we feel it’s unsafe to put ourselves in a situation where we feel uncomfortable, then by all means, we should do so.   We women have control over ourselves and our dating lives, and isn’t that what you’ve been trying to get across here in this blog?   So to use that logic, then doesn’t it make common sense to go, “OK, Heather.   You’ve been raped and abused in a marriage.   Think about what happened.   Learn from that.   Set better boundaries.   Watch men more, don’t just blindly trust after 10 minutes.   If you don’t feel comfortable having foreplay/intercourse on the first date, then don’t PUT yourself in a situation where that could happen.”

    THAT is all I am saying.   I find it quite commendable that people like Wendy are moving on with their lives.   We have a choice, we can sit and hide in fear or we can get out there and move on.   She and I have chosen to do that, but do so with a bit more caution than before.  

    Maybe you’re one of the guys who are fine with a woman stopping you if you guys are rounding 3rd base and she’s not liking it/getting freaked out/what have you.   But there are “some” guys who are not.   And it’s better to get to know a guy a little bit, IMO, before going there and then finding out the hard way.

  17. 37
    Ruby

    EMK #36
      
    “Normal people don’t state their expectations on the first date.”
      
    What Wendy actually said was, “If you have a few great dates and things seem to be progressing down that physical path, why not have a talk? Let your date know about your expectations. Ask him  about his.  The  objective is to make sure you’re both on the same page.”
      
    Why is this a bad thing? Notice that she didn’t advocate grilling the guy on the first date, which, I agree, would be hasty. Since it’s usually men who do the pursuing in the beginning, women are generally the ones setting limits.

  18. 38
    L_M

    Having been a longtime lurker but never commented, here’s a few things I feel has to be pointed out. The reading inability and logical fallacies are teeth-gritting.
    @ Aimita re comment #02 – In the original post, Evan mentions that only kissing for 3 dates is a little frustrating. He did not say anything about it being a golden rule that had to be followed, or encased in stone, The 2nd paragraph of your reply gives your POV and a minimum timeframe of what YOU reckon you’re not comfortable with. The problem arises, when you extrapolate your POV and the validity of situations based only on your POV, in your subsequent replies.
    Your 3rd paragraph is the kind of reply that makes eyes roll/glaze over in any serious debate/discussion and immediately induces the urge to dismiss you as a candidate for measured non-exaggerated discourse (It’s only the 2nd comment, and we’re already at the Godwin’s Law equivalent of discussing foreplay/date progression ie rape).
    “I know that I can control myself, but I can’t control the other person.   If  a woman doesn’t know the man  very well, and  she engages  in  foreplay, I think she is putting herself in danger of date rape.”   
    I always took it that Evan was giving advice to those who were either unsure or didn’t know what he speaks of, and that he always treats his audience with the respectful premise that they have a certain amount of caution and commonsense, but just need that extra edge. According to you, a woman has to know a man VERY well, before engaging in foreplay. So what’s your definition of knowing the man well, and how long will it take? Can you seriously put a concrete time limit on such things? Having dated men and women, I can tell you that I didn’t need to know them VERY well, before having foreplay. It depends on where I’m coming from, and how I suss out the comfort zones and stop short at any major red flags, as I go along.  
    Maggie in #04 also seems to have a similar misunderstanding. Evan is mentioning that only kissing for 3 dates is a bit frustrating. He’s stating his viewpoint, which I can say is quite valid for most of my friends (some are experienced daters who’ve done everything from one-night-stands to more, and are now married). How it becomes twisted and exaggerated in interpretation, as a rule to allow men to manhandle boobs and more within- Here’s Evan’s original lines:
    “Or three straight dates with nothing but kissing. That was a little frustrating.”
    Maggie, you say the timeline in this post is aggressive. Please point out where Evan insists on a fixed timeline for how and what things are supposed to happen, and then we can see what aggressiveness you speak of. As I understood, he was giving his feelings and viewpoint, not rules. I read a post that tries to illustrate progression in steps and examples, but I don’t see anything fixed in gold. Your reply implies you do. Please, point it out.  
    I would also like to point out that if one’s approach is ultra-conservative from a religious/cultural/safety POV, that’s fine FOR YOU. One would do better with ultra-conservatives (eg. one must know the other person VERY well, before foreplay of any sort is allowed). But please keep in mind that there will be a reduced availability of people to your liking. If (generic) you are going to make your moral stance crystal-clear on the first date, you’ll have to be very careful HOW you do it, such that your firmness doesn’t translate into aggressiveness. Because if the other person gets the impression that your mindset and morals must extend to your partner, then you’re making them think you are likely going to be difficult and inflexible when you don’t get your way (which may border on ridiculous), then I have no interest in going further with somebody like that. I respect boundaries, but having YOUR law laid down on me like a drill sergeant, wet nanny or arrogant child does not make people hang aorund.
    I don’t agree with everything Evan says, but I can agree with most of what he says. His stance is that he is catering for the masses. Given what I know of my male and female friends, most of them would identify with more than half of what he’s saying, mindset-wise.
    @ Wendy re comment #28 – I read your comments 24 and 28. And I’m not surprised at Karl R’s or Julia’s responses. You cite statistics and examples, especially in #24 and give me the extreme impression that you are driving a point home that you are intent on tarring the entire forest as ash. You also seem to be missing the point of what you’re trying to advocate VS the actual impression your words are giving. I quote 2 examples below:
    I’m responding to the folks on here who claim to be able to know a person within 15 minutes of meeting him/her.

    Who are the folks here, who claim to be able to know a person within 15 minutes of meeting him/her? Not Evan. Not Karl R. Not I. Not Julia.
    Those of us who exhibit a reasonable amount of caution are not crazy phobics, and frankly I’m tired of being called one because I don’t jump in the sack with somebody before I even know his name. Good luck to you.

    You’re implying that you’re being called a crazy-phobic, because you don’t jump in the sack with someone without even knowing their name. NOBODY here is asking or telling you to jump in the sack with someone without knowing their name. I wouldn’t call you a crazy-phobic. But I might call you crazy about other things, and stay far away from you, because you seem a little too keen to prove that evil men exist out there and it’s almost impossible to be safe… not to mention a disconnect from what is being said Vs what you’re interpretting and putting out there.  
    People, being traumatised by rape is horrible. And scarring. But extrapolating not knowing a man well enough by YOUR definition = foreplay = likely rape should not be used as it is here because frankly speaking, that’s doing a real disrespectful disservice to rape victims.
    And frankly, regardless of gender, that’s where the problem lies with several posters here. A questionable reading comprehension obviously clouded by assumptions, flawed logic, an inability to recognise and step outside of the limitations of their mindset that they don’t realise (and recognise another POV as valid, equally valid or being more valid), hence leading to the impressions given in the wording.  
    Evan is obviously giving flexible and respectful advice (which he has acknowledged before in earlier posts, does not extend to everybody but is for the masses) based on the premise that the readers are mature enough to apply what they will as they wish, to their own situations. He has also added his POV about likely consequences and limiting factors. He is not ramming golden rules down your throat here. Some replies however, imply otherwise. Some readers, obviously, are not returning him the flexibility and respect.

  19. 39
    Wendy

    @L_M #40: To clarify, AGAIN, I was responding specifically to Karmic Equation who stated in post #20 that she usually knows within 15 minutes of talking to someone if they are a good person. My statistics were meant only to show that this is not always the case. If I’d simply said “Yeah, well, some good guys are actually bad, so there!” without backing it up with facts, I’d have been called out on that. And to suggest someone get counseling because they exhibit common-sense caution with men they don’t know is insulting. And AGAIN, you’re misinterpreting my suggestion that getting to know a man before going off into the night with him is the same as “Treat all men like they’re murdering rapists!” How are you coming to that conclusion? Honestly!
    It sounds to me like the OP had the kind of lasting, loving, faithful relationship that I (and many others) are hoping to one day find. That being said, since she’s been “virtuous” to the point of no longer needing to prove it, I hope she now gets the chance to have some fun with her new single status, sex and all.

  20. 40
    Karmic Equation

    @Heather 38 Maybe you’re one of the guys who are fine with a woman stopping you if you guys are rounding 3rd base and she’s not liking it/getting freaked out/what have you. But there are “some” guys who are not. And it’s better to get to know a guy a little bit, IMO, before going there and then finding out the hard way.

    There’s no guarantee that the guy will be ok with stopping if you don’t indulge until the 100th date, when you’ve gotten to know him super well. When you indulge is not the determining factor if a guy will or won’t be ok with stopping. It’s the character of the GUY himself. If he has issues he will have them at any date. If you find yourself with more guys who are NOT ok than ok with stopping when you say so, you have a broken picker. If you only have an N=1 experience, then this is not statistically significant to worry about. I’m sorry it happened to you, but it’s still not statiscally significant, and you can’t paint all men with the same brush.

    If you’re just IMAGINING this happens without any actual experience with this, then you need to stop the negative thinking. You are what you think. There’s a study (forgot where I read this one) – that the unconscious mind does not know “good” thoughts from “bad” thoughts, just simply that you have the thoughts. But whatever you think is what your mind moves you towards. So if You think men are potential rapists and every “stop” will engender negative reactions from men, you mind will keep helping you find those kind of men.

    @Maggie33 and Wendy37

    When you have sex or sexual activities is not the determining factor but rather the MAN HIMSELF. If it takes you 8 dates, then it takes you 8 dates. Some of us can get there on 1-3 dates. some of us can filter/decide faster than others. There’s no right or wrong.

    @Wendy37

    Great clarification. Bantering and communication is a good way of getting the sexual info across in a fun way. This is what I meant by having the kind of conversation that helps you get to know the guy. If your guy wasn’t a good bantering type whom attracted you, you wouldn’t have indulged and would have moved on.

    You’re actually doing what EMK is advocating just with a little delay in the action and a little longer on the conversation/getting to know stage.

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