Is Sex on the Third Date the New Normal?

Is Sex on the Third Date the New Normal?
Evan, to say I’m frustrated with dating right now is an understatement! During the past six months, almost EVERY man I’ve gone out with expects sex by the third date. Seriously! It doesn’t matter if it’s a man I’ve met on an online dating site or if it’s a blind date through a friend. And the ones that don’t expect sex just kind of fade away. I’ve asked these men WHY they expect sex by the third date. Their response is that they have heard that if they don’t get it by the third date, the woman isn’t into them. Of course, I’m not sleeping with them… and they fall off the face of the earth.

I’m so fed up with this! I’m 45 now and I never experienced this type of scenario until just this year. Is this all there is now? Now that I’m older, is this all I can expect from a man at this stage of my life? –Patti

Dear Patti,

You’re certainly not the first to feel this way, my friend.

I’m sorry you’re frustrated, but in my experience as a dating coach, frustration usually results when someone’s expectations are out of line with reality.

The way to mitigate the frustration is not to change reality but to change your expectations.

The first thing you can do is understand that men look for sex and find love. We are driven by attraction and have zero trouble separating the physical act of sex from the feelings of love.

In this case your expectations are that men should not be interested in having sex on the third date.

And reality is showing you that this is something that men are interested in.

What’s a slower-moving, more traditional woman to do?

Well, the first thing you can do is understand that men look for sex and find love. We are driven by attraction and have zero trouble separating the physical act of sex from the feelings of love. We’ll have sex with women we don’t like and women we’re barely attracted to. Especially if we’re lonely and sex-deprived (sex is always much more important when you’re not getting it!)!

I’m not saying you have to like this facet of men, but at least, at this point, you can stop getting surprised or upset at it. It’s like getting angry at rain or nightfall. Your opinions of it don’t matter much; it’s still going to keep on happening.

Next, you have to forgive these men for their ignorance. They know not what they do. Even if you believe their ridiculous statement, “If I don’t have sex by the third date, she’s not into me,” it doesn’t matter. What a man wants is not necessarily to have sex on the third date, but to have some physical contact that may, someday, lead to sex.

Men are like sharks that needs to keep on moving.

What a man wants is not necessarily to have sex on the third date, but to have some physical contact that may, someday, lead to sex.

If he’s been talking to you for a week, plans a date, picks you up, takes you out, grabs the check, drives you home, and is also attracted to you, you can be sure that if he’s at all confident, he’s going to make a first move.

How far he gets is up to you.

Then there’s going to be a second date. Same thing’s gonna happen. You can’t be surprised by this or blame him for this. All you can do is figure out how much you like him, how much you trust him, and how far you want to go. There’s no right or wrong. Your boundaries are your boundaries. You just can’t get too upset when he tries something.

Then there’s a third date. Same thing’s gonna happen. If you want to avoid sexual contact, you can make sure your third date takes place over a picnic in a park, at 5:30 after work, or at a crafts fair, but understand, he’s still driven by his attraction to you. He doesn’t know that he wants you to be his girlfriend yet.

So as I scripted, word by word, in Why He Disappeared, your job is to a) figure out if your man is interested in you or interested in sex, and b) figure out how to make it fun for him to slow down. Sex isn’t all or nothing and as long as you can take him around the bases slowly, you can buy yourself enough time to figure out if you want to be exclusive with each other. Play it right and he’ll stick around.

Make him feel like a sexually perverted sleazebag for making a move on you and you shouldn’t be too surprised if he doesn’t feel good about his prospects on the next date.

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  1. 151
    David T

    @Karmic Equation 155
    My main point is that by training myself not to respond to sex emotionally, or by responding and ignoring or remaining unaware of that response over and over again, I would make it harder for me to develop an intimate connection with ANYONE. That is why I resolved not to have sex without an existing strong emotional connection, and is perhaps what RW was referring to in 106 when she talked about “cheapening” the value of sex. Sex is fun, but it is also very serious and important.
    It is all a matter of degrees and it is going to vary from person to person.  I think I can hug, hold, cuddle, make out within reason, etc without doing harm to my attachment machinery.  I am dubious that anyone can have sex with many partners throughout their life and still completely preserve their ability to connect/attach through sex in a monogamous relationship or maybe attach at all, but hey, anything is possible.  I point it out to encourage people to monitor themselves carefully if they choose to have sexual adventures.
    Each person has to decide what works for them where they draw the line.
    Aside: “straight woman” was a rephrase of “straight man” who is the person in a comedy duo who generates openings for the comedian to crack a joke. These days the phrase is sometimes used for someone who says something that gives an opening for the responder to smoothly move into what they want to talk about.

  2. 152

    @ David T #156
    Very interesting viewpoint from a man. Thank you for sharing that. Are you left-handed by any chance?

  3. 153
    David T

    Yes, why?  I do know a teen who has experienced this. He didn’t have sex, thankfully, but did become fairly physically intimate with a young woman whose name he does not know and will likely never see again. They did not talk. She offered and he took her up on it. He was upset about not knowing how to see her again. This is attachment through physical intimacy in its rawest purest form: in someone young who has little to no relationship experience with hormones running hot. This is how I think we are all made at our core being.  I am thankful he learned this lesson to tread carefully now, instead a far harder one later.
    He will get over this, and be “tougher” the next time. He will be able to train himself to indulge in these activities if he chooses and not feel attachment if he chooses.  Is that good?  I am not so sure, because as that happens more and more, will he be able to tap into attachment when he wants to?   I hope he chooses a different route and keeps his powder dry for relationships that matter. They will be richer for it.
    Maybe he and I are unusual for males, perhaps because we listen to our hearts more. I think those who don’t suffer emotional dissonance quietly and unconsciously and it slowly saps them of their ability to connect.  He is right handed, btw.

  4. 154

    @ David T
    I was referring to the anatomical differences in the brains of men and women, and also right-handed men and left-handed men. The left hemisphere (logical, thinking, verbal) and the right hemisphere (feeling, sexual, sensual) are connected via the corpus collosum and the anterior commissure. It has been found (lots of refs on the internet, so I will not bother giving specific refs) that the corpus collosum and the anterior commissure are smaller in right-handed men than in women and left-handed men. MRI research has shown that the corpus collosum has about 30% fewer connections in men than in women. It has been suggested that that is why generally right-handed men act from either the left -OR- the right hemisphere, but rarely from both at the same time. It is also claimed to explain why women and left-handed men are better at multi-tasking, which is very difficult for right-handed men, although right-handed men are better at focusing intensely on one task – they do not get distracted as their right hemisphere is inactive when their left hemisphere is active. It is also considered the reason why men generally can separate sex and love – when they are having sex they are operating from the right hemisphere (lust, sexual, sensual), while love/LTRs include to a large extent assessment of compatibility of values and goals (thinking, logical).

    You wrote above “Sex is fun, but it is also very serious and important.” – this combines sexuality/sensuality and logical thinking, and not many right-handed men would do that at the same time, hence my guess that you are left-handed. 
    Please note I was not referring to the ‘attachment through sex’ you were talking about. It has been found (ref Helen Fisher) that that is linked to the level of vasopressin, which acts in a similar way to oxytocin in women, and that men with higher levels of vasopressin attach more easily. I have not come across studies on connection vasopressin levels and right- or left-handedness.
    I would also venture a guess that Karmic Equation has longer ring-fingers than index-fingers.

  5. 155
    Karmic Equation

    Yup. I’m right-handed and ring fingers on both hands are longer than my index fingers.
    I vaguely remembering reading something about this having some significance, but I honestly didn’t pay attention to the article.
    I’ll google it now 🙂

  6. 156
    Karmic Equation

    Hmmm…Interesting. My low 2D:4D ratio would explain one of my guy-friend’s observation that I’m like a dude inside a female body.
    My male-brain would also explain why I understand my player friend’s need for variety and not be offended or as horrified by it as most other women here find it.
    I suppose my male-brain gives me an edge in understanding how men think (and therefore how to push the right buttons), to help me get what my woman’s heart wants. It certainly would explain my penchant for wearing “stud” earrings when I’m in a relationship, but prefer wearing hoop earrings when in-between relationships ( LOL — Guess my “male-brain” was helping me out 🙂
    I guess some biology you can’t fight, but certainly you can make it work for you.
    Thanks, Sacha.

  7. 157
    Karmic Equation

    @Dave T

    It is all a matter of degrees and it is going to vary from person to person.  I think I can hug, hold, cuddle, make out within reason, etc without doing harm to my attachment machinery.  I am dubious that anyone can have sex with many partners throughout their life and still completely preserve their ability to connect/attach through sex in a monogamous relationship or maybe attach at all, but hey, anything is possible.  I point it out to encourage people to monitor themselves carefully if they choose to have sexual adventures.

    Not sure, but you might be mixing cause and effect. Like saying “gray hair CAUSES old age” when in fact gray hair may be a SYMPTOM of old age.

    Maybe you can’t attach because you’re lacking practice, More importantly, it’s possible that if you don’t practice attaching, when you finally do attach, the feelings will be so overwhelming, you may blow the meaning of the attachment out of proportion with reality and become either a suicidal mess or a stalker.

    Also, I disagree in your thinking that the capacity for love/attachment is finite. That would be so sad if it were. If we waste all the attachment on boys (or girls in your case) in our youth when no one really appreciates it, and then run out of love/attachment when we get old…Wow, why bother continuing to live after you’re 25?

    I believe a lot of people think that abstention is “better” than promiscuity, that NOT having sex makes them better, more moral, more loving people. I don’t agree, both can leave you being less capable of forming healthy adult relationships. In you abstain, you may be giving sex MORE meaning than it deserves. If you have too much, you don’t give it the meaning that it does deserve. As with all things, moderation is best, even sex. You have to have just enough to ensure you see it for what it actually is and you can’t see it for what it is if you treat it like it’s the Holy Grail.

  8. 158
    Evan Marc Katz

    Hey Karma – appreciate your participation, but please, no triple posts – it keeps other people out of the discussion. Consolidate your replies into a few paragraphs in one post, if possible. Thanks!

  9. 159

    I spent too much time concerned about men making a move too quickly. I told myself that I wanted someone who “respected me.” However, after dating someone for four months who never made a move on me (yes, I know – not a shining moment in my dating life), I realized how important it was for a man to express his interest by trying to connect physically. I know I am not obligated to respond, but I do need to know that the interest is there. I’ve learned to appreciate this interest. It’s normal for men.

    For me, the time you spend dating someone before becoming sexually involved provides a wonderful opportunity to get to know the other person while keeping a level head.  You’ve offered some great advice: your job is to a) figure out if your man is interested in you or interested in sex, and b) figure out how to make it fun for him to slow down. 

    So is sex on date 3 the new norm? Not in my world!

  10. 160

    Thanks for responding to my question, Evan!  I do appreciate a man’s perspective of this.  I also appreciate the responses.  For a while, I thought maybe I was abnormal in not being ready to “put out” until I got to know the man. 
    I would like to add, however, that it’s the approach to sex, as well.  I had two dates with one man from a dating site who, while we were sitting in an ice cream shop, asked me what my “number” was.  He then proceeded to ask me how much I weighed and after I responded, told me that 20 lbs of it must be my boobs.  How romantic is that?  And then he calls me at 3 am to schedule the third date, which he knows I will be asleep at that time.  This man was actually a police officer and was pushy towards the subject.  By his actions, I figured that this was the ONLY thing he was looking for.  Before we even met, he was asking me how my 19 year old son would feel about him sleeping over if we were in a relationship.  My guard wasn’t up at the time.  I guess I wasn’t fully prepared for online dating.
    And then I had a blind date.  The first date was wonderful!  He picked me up on his bike and we had pizza at a bar he liked with no drinking (I’m not a drinker).  Second date … no.  He picked me up after work, he knew I hadn’t eaten, by what he said I thought we were going to dinner.  No!  He took me to a bar, asked me if I liked to party, and asked me what type of birth control I used.  I should have just had him leave me there and I could have called for a ride home, but I went on to the next stop with him hoping it would get better … maybe dinner and the situation would change.  It didn’t.  We went on to another bar, I had another beer with him (two total) and when the waitress came around again, he started to order another beer for me (again, I hadn’t eaten and he knew this), so I told her I wanted a burger, which I was prepared to pay for since I already knew this situation had gone sour.  Afterwards, we got on the bike and he asked me if he could take me home … his home.  No!  Because of the circumstances, I felt that he was only out for a lay.  And I felt that he was attempting to get me drunk when he knew I wasn’t a drinker.  And this was a teacher!
    Since then, I dated a man for about six weeks from an online site.  It went a little better.  He wanted to spend a lot of time with me and things were progressing, but then he started complaining about his ex wife and the things that happened during the course of their marriage, and then I realized he wasn’t over his divorce.  But yet, that very night, he made a move on me.  If I hadn’t just heard about the problems with the ex, I may have considered it, but what went through my mind was that he wasn’t over her … and he was seeking sex to feel better about himself.  He dumped me a few days later by text, telling me he was talking to another woman online that he wanted to meet. 
    This is all I’m finding out there.  Men who I feel are just looking for another notch for their bedposts or men who are looking for a warm body to replace their ex for a while.  None seem to actually want a relationship.  And this is why I’m unwilling to jump right in.  I’ve been divorced for some time and I’m ready for someone who is going to be around for a while.

  11. 161

    Broken picker.

  12. 162

    Well, I’m not sure that your “picker” is broken, but it does seem like you might not be thoroughly screening these people before meeting. Do you exchange a few emails, and chat with them on the phone first? I also feel that intrusive questions and comments by a relative stranger are reason enough to end the date immediately, no explanations are necessary. I’d also have a chat with the person who set you up on the blind date. Is this someone you know well? It does take some effort to weed out the multitude of weirdos and damaged souls out there.

  13. 163

    In the case of online dating, I do message with them a week or two and talk on the phone a few times.  The incident with the police officer was the worst I’ve had so far … I don’t know if it was his vocation or what (yes, he was, in fact, a police officer … a captain actually), but he had a way of intimidating me.  I can’t explain it.  He’s the only one I’ve actually been afraid of, which you would think would be strange since he’s a police officer.
    The one who set me up with the blind date is also a teacher.  They work together.  But my friend admitted afterwards that he had only known him for a year and only spoke to him on a few occasions.  My “date” had just recently started working at that school, so, no, my friend didn’t actually know him all that well, but he thought he was a decent guy.
    I don’t know.  Maybe I’m not using proper screening techniques.  To be honest, I never thought I’d ever do the online dating thing.  In the past, I lived in a smaller town and I dated local men, and it seemed that someone I knew either knew the guy personally or had a friend who was friends with him.  I guess I haven’t really prepared myself for online dating.  I’m actually so burned out from it right now that I’m depressed from it.  A friend told me that part of my problem was that I wasn’t enjoying the dating process.  How can you enjoy the dating process when 95% of your dates turn out to be bad ones?

  14. 164

    Wow, some women on this site (i.e. Margo) are looney.  Evan, I have no idea how you can continue to try and help people who are so against everything you say and against men in general.  Margo, I have better advice for ya.  Skip men totally.  Just immerse yourself in reading books until you don’t need sex anymore.  It is probably the best path for you. 

    Mia, who are you to be giving advice to anyone or to complain about any wrong doing done to you by men?  Lest we forget, you are the one who had sex with married men in the past and have no remorse for it even today.  You even made fun of their wives.  Count your blessings they didn’t have any crazy and vengeful wives or you would have been one sorry SOB!  Anyone with your level of classlessness has no right calling anyone a sleazebag (look in the mirror) and is not entitled to give advice to anyone in my book.  Dispicable!

  15. 165

    And a friend just sent me an article that states the Midwest is like a desert for single women.  As if it’s not hard enough to find a man who is actually interested in developing a long-term relationship, the area in which I live has less single men to begin with.

  16. 166

    Locutus, chill out. I’m perfectly entitled to post something in the comments here, and no one has to listen to my advice. By your reasoning, I should just lock myself in a closet and never deserve happiness just because I made a few mistakes when I was younger, and have some perspectives which I’ll admit can seem offensive but are things I vent about on the Internet rather than say out loud to anyone but my best friend. At least I am trying to learn from  my mistakes at a relatively young age rather than being one of the middle aged women on here who still Chases chemistry and sleeps with guys on the second date. Following a variety of mistakes, I have accepted that I can’t sleep with a man unless we are exclusive- unless it’s an occasional ons or out of town fling where there’s no way I can get attached. So after a series of mistakes and humiliations I am developing much firmer boundaries and have decided I am no longer going to continue in situations where I can’t win, and I expect that will considerably cut down on my venting.

  17. 167

    Hi Patti #168:
    “A friend told me that part of my problem was that I wasn’t enjoying the dating process.  How can you enjoy the dating process when 95% of your dates turn out to be bad ones?”
    First, thank you for your initial question to Evan who in return gave such a wise answer, and for getting back to the thread with more information on your situation. I have no experience with online dating and do not expect to have any in this lifetime, therefore I’m not speaking from a place of knowledge. However from what I learned from women dating online, it looks like although it can work, it’s also a very frustrating path to a relationship. On paper (whoops, on screen) it looks like you widen your options, and maybe you do. But you widen them within a pool that attracts a disproportionate amount of broken, confused, bitter, and player men. After all online dating is “lazy”: you leave your fishing line in the pond and wait for a catch. It’s heaven for men who do not want much more than a booty call. There sure must be serious men in the online pool as some of them comment here and seem respectful of women’s needs and genuinely interested in LTRs, but I believe from reading all the negative feedback that these great men are lost in a sea of clueless or confused ones that might sadly look more appealing from their photos and profiles.
    For men, it is easier to “merchandise” and rationalize the process, and that’s what online dating is in the end. You market yourself with a photo, a description and some tick boxes. For women, this is much harder to be at peace with a “market-based” system as we tend to be more sensitive and more romantic. 
    My suggestion to you to “enjoy the dating process” more is to focus on real life interactions where they are no tick boxes and where men have to make a real effort to connect with you (and you too!). What do you like to do or makes you curious? Social dances? Volunteering? Hiking? Art classes? Find a couple activities close to where you live or work and go have fun. If it’s not fun, change after a couple of months. You’ll discover new interests, develop new female friendships, and eventually will meet men organically. Men who have a life. And even if you do not meet interesting men initially, at least you will enjoy your life!
    Good luck!

    1. 167.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Fusee – Thanks for your contribution. But, for what it’s worth, “real life” is overrated. Online dating is underrated. Your suggestions: Social dances? Volunteering? Hiking? Art classes? You know who you’re going to meet, for the most part? Other middle aged women. Or couples. Or nobody because most people don’t go hiking to make friends. So sure, go out and have a life and do things you find fun. If you meet a guy organically, great! And if not, go back home and spend a half hour a day browsing profiles on To advocate a proactive dating life without online dating is like advocating fitness training without a gym. It’s possible, but it sure is a lot harder.

  18. 168

    @fusee I can go days on end without meeting single men IRL, its not a winning solution. I guess I can *hope* that Mr. Right stops me on the street when I am leaving the gym but I am not putting all my eggs into the hope basket.

  19. 169

    @Evan #173:
    Sure. I agree that the most effective is using both approaches if you have the time, energy, and the resilience to frustration.
    However I can’t stop wondering how come I’ve always easily met men in real life, before I even wanted to. Especially at social dancing where more men show up than women because they know this is where to meet women easily. Yes, older men too. It’s even been frustrating at times since I was going there to dance, not to be asked for a date. I also can’t stop wondering how come after years of prolific online dating, you married a woman you met in real life. Same for Karl R. I may underrate online dating, and as I said @172 I do not have any experience with it myself, but real life being overrated? Seriously?
    By the way, and you may have guessed it by now, I also avoid the gym. For my fitness needs I walk, run, swim, do yoga, go hiking, etc. I breathe fresh air at the same time instead of the sweat of others. Works great for me.
    Now, I’m not advocating against online dating or the gym. But when I hear people expressing their frustration with these avenues, I definitely want to remind them of old-fashionned ways to meet people and be fit. That’s all.

  20. 170

    @Fusee I am assuming you were speaking to me because you talked about the gym. I go to an all women’s studio so I don’t have any illusions I will be meeting men there, I go there because its challenging and makes me strong.

    As for social dancing, I don’t even know what that is….. 

  21. 171

    But the truth is Mia, I can forgive people when they make mistakes and are sorry for them.  You stated that you do not regret any part of having affairs with married men and you even made fun of the wives like they were losers and deserved it!!  The point is you have no remorse- even today!!!  You said yourself that you are not sorry for any of it.
    So, it’s NOT just a mistake of the past.  It’s something you still think is totally fine.  For that reason I would emplore anyone reading these posts to not listen to you. 
    The part about you laughing and making fun of the wives is repulsive to me. 

  22. 172

    @Julia #176:
    Ooops, sorry for the misunderstanding. No, I was not talking to you in my previous comments : ) @172 I was replying to Patti, and @175 to Evan who made a parallel between online dating and the gym, for dating and fitness effectiveness respectively.
    I was definitely not recommending the gym to meet men. Not sure men would hunt for dates while working out, but who knows? No idea, I’m not going to the gym : )
    Again, nothing again online dating per se to find a partner, or the gym to keep fit. If it works for you, go for it. My comments were addressed to Patti and other women for whom online dating might not work that well.
    Side note: social dancing is not everyone’s cup of tea, but if you would be open to try it, I’d recommend Lindy Hop (or any swing dance) or Argentine Tango. Those classes are full of intelligent men who at least 1. are not afraid of learning something new, 2. know they will have to develop the courage to ask a woman for a dance, 3. will be able to touch a woman appropriately without expecting more at that point. Oh, and you will directly find out how their embrace *feels* and how they are doing in the hygiene department. It keeps you fit too : )

  23. 173

    With years of online dating experience, I have to say it’s been a mixed bag at best. Certainly, plenty of people meet their partners online, but plenty of others toil away into frustration and bitterness. It’s not just because of attracting players, broken folks, etc. A fair amount of folks seem to have similar experiences to myself. I’ve met many really nice, intelligent women doing online dating, and yet every one of my long term relationships has happened organically. The longest I have dated someone I met online was about two months. After at least 100 online dates over the years, I can count the number of really messed up/difficult women I’ve met on my hands. It helps to be good at screening and weeding out, but I have to say that there have been many times where we have “looked good on paper,” but just didn’t click in person for whatever reason.
    I think Evan is correct that including online dating in your approach is worthwhile. However, I think some folks place too many eggs in that basket, and then find themselves drained and disappointed after awhile. Perhaps the smartest thing is to learn how to be open to meeting someone anywhere, so that the weight you place on “real life” or on the internet isn’t driven by unrealistic expectations or desperation.

  24. 174

    I have had similar experiences to some who have posted. On-line dating has never worked for me and I have no reason to believe it is magically going to start now. I am rapidly reaching the conclusion that I am wasting time, energy and money on it.  All of my previous relationships started in real life through chance meetings or introductions by friends. I expect that I will just need to see if that happens again when the time is right or not. I am still online on the off chance that it may yield some benefits but I doubt it.

  25. 175
    Karmic Equation

    I know of two colleagues who met and married their current mates through online dating. So it works.

    Personally, I think that if online dating is not working out on meeting “the one” for you, I still think that it is worthwhile, assuming cost of doing so is not putting unnecessary strains on your bank accounts, for the primary reason that you learn how to date and screen people IN PERSON, and become a better conversationalist and more comfortable with men in general. If it’s straining your bank account, that could cause an artificial sense of urgency and desperation.

    Had I been in Patti’s shoes with the guy who talked about her boobs, I would have put him on the spot…”Ok. Let’s put our cards on the table, are you looking for sex from me or is this your way of flirting?” Let’s say he stammers, “Er…both?” I would have said, “That will never happen with anyone if you don’t learn to flirt with more finesse….Like instead of saying what you just said, which I was actually offended by, you could have said “You are just gorgeous.””

    Then change the subject to ask him how many dates he’s gone on and how they went…Bet you would already suspect…And you might actually have good conversation with him and learn more about him…And guess what? You might bring out the “real” man in him instead of the player/jerk. While you may have already weeded him out as Mr Right, you made a great impression, deftly changed the subject and showed your “value” (intelligence and honesty)…confidence and kindness by giving him the benefit of the doubt…and learned more about another human being. You’ll feel good about yourself and you may have helped a clueless guy. Let’s say he’s a jerk and not simply clueless, so what? You still came out of that experience a better person.

    There’s a blog post somewhere that hypothesize men are so adept at the  “plaything / keeper” triage because they date so prolifically (this assessment is subconscious for men)… I think online dating has merit fot this specific purpose: for women to get to date A LOT of men and learn their own likes and dislikes and learn to quickly triage men into “Mr Right / Mr Right Now / Mr Maybe / Mr Not on Your Life”), and then spend time only on the Mr Right and Mr Right Nows and even Mr Maybe (whether online or IRL).

  26. 176
    David T

    @Locutus 177
    So, it’s NOT just a mistake of the past.  It’s something you still think is totally fine.  For that reason I would emplore anyone reading these posts to not listen to you. 
    I often disagree with Mia’s perspectives. Nevertheless they are her perspectives and one more glimpse of piece of the panorama of different dating styles and peronalities out there. It is a mistake to dismiss everything someone says just because you disagree with specific points they have made. Note, for instance, that I said often and not always. (For instance Mia53  I also       have had enough stress in recent years wondering if a man likes me after sex that I want to wait a little longer for my own emotional protection).
    Also there is real value in hearing an opposing point of view,  For me it helps remind me why I believe what I do and sometimes strengthens my resolve to stick to my principles. I implore people to read everything here (hmm… not some of the labyrinthine, torturous discourses that don’t go anywhere 😀 ). Hold it and think about it and how you relate or don’t to it. Whether you agree with it or not you will  learn something.

  27. 177

    I learned a lot about myself, the dating process, and what others are looking for doing online dating. It’s a good development tool, as Karmic points out. And some people do find their long term/life long partners online, so it does have some merit in that respect as well. However, I do think that some of us hit a wall where we’ve done our share of “learning,” and aren’t finding anyone we connect strongly with. And for those folks, focusing on other options – or simply enjoying the rest of your life without too much fussing about finding someone – might be more appropriate.
    I see an awful lot of what amounts to endless self improvement advice online for daters. It boils down to the idea that you aren’t really “good enough” right now, and that’s why you’re failing at online dating (or dating in general). There’s something way off about that attitude. Which doesn’t mean people shouldn’t make an effort to become smarter daters. But if you don’t think you’re “good enough” now, you’ll probably keep feeding that story even after you find someone. How many relationships get undermined by lousy self esteem? If more of us treated dating like an experiment, or an adventure, instead of a confirmation or condemnation of personal worth, maybe there’d be less collective misery.

    1. 177.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Nathan – I respectfully disagree with you, my friend. And it’s probably because I have the privilege of working intimately with women on a daily basis. The most amazing women learn something new EVERY SINGLE TIME we talk on the phone. Yesterday, one client was shocked to learn why a man might send a text instead of calling. Or why he could cancel a date and still be interested. Or why he could hook up and have it not mean anything. Or why his online dating emails seem so impatient, even if he’s a nice guy. Or why good men don’t pick up the whole check. Or why quality guys still get nervous and try to sell themselves on first dates.

      My job is not to tell women that there’s something WRONG with them; it’s to shed light on the things that they don’t see, can’t understand or wouldn’t acknowledge because they’re a) not as experienced as I am and b) not men.

      Very little of my profession is telling women “what’s wrong” with them, which is why I get so bent out of shape when people come to that conclusion. Men need to understand women better. Women need to understand men better. I’m just the translator.

  28. 178

    David T,
    Hey, you can listen to perspectives of any types of people if you want to, even repeat criminals.  However, it is a little ironic to hear someone make compaints about men being jerks or sleazebags when suddenly they are even worse than what they are complaining about!!  From Mia’s comments you would think she is an innocent woman who has had men treat her poorly.  The latter may be true, but she acts just as poorly or worse than the men she complains about.  Nobody is perfect, but I don’t accept hypocrites.  That is the underlying characteristic that bothers me.  It’s like a Jerry Springer show when both parties have cheated.  One gets all upset and then halfway thru starts telling how they cheated themself.  Utter non-sense and ridiculousness.  When someone is a hypocrite their credibility goes right out the window!!

  29. 179

    One thing the struck me about dating again (was married very young at 24), is how casual everything is. Now mind you, I haven’t dated since I was 19, but you may meet someone, have a great time, and for some reason never hear from them again. You can go on 6-8 dates, truly feel like you are on your way to building something with someone, and puff they are gone. So for me, I think waiting for 2-3 months, with enough rounding every other base, makes sense. Emotionally, i don’t like the aftertaste of casual sex. I am too fragile in that regard. Unfortunately, not everyone is at the stage in their life where they can be emotionally open for a relationship of the depth I would like to have one day. 

  30. 180

    Liz you are right about the state of dating today.  People have become rude, inconsiderate, and basically careless.  They see no issue to simply blow someone off or stop talking to you.  I have had 4 dates in a row all recently just blow me off.  2 out of the 4 women even called me a few days before the date to say how much they wanted to meet me since they liked how I came off over the phone and complained to me that their previous dates were losers and jerks.  Then 2 days later….they blow me off- no call, no e-mail, nothing.  It’s detrimental to everyone.  I have become a worse person for it too- I no longer trust or believe anyone when they tell me things.  I totally agree with your assessment.  However, these types of people would probably do the same thing at any given point in time.  Unfortunately, I think waiting 2-3 months is no guarantee to improve this situation.  What it really comes down to is what type of person you have really met.  No way of knowing that until they display their true colors and obviously yo urealize you have wasted your time.

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