Letters From Men Who Go to Strip Clubs

Journalist Susannah Breslin has started a compelling site called Letters From Men Who Go to Strip Clubs.

Yes, that’s all it is.

Here’s what a few big media outlets have to say about it. Salon: “A new blog gives voice to guys who empty their pockets just to see naked flesh, and reveals a lot about male desire.” Newsweek: “Gives men a chance to write anonymously about the complicated reasons they buy sex.” TIME.com: “[A]n online collection of purportedly real letters from sex workers and their customers.”

I’m sharing it with you because, as I see it, my job is help you understand how men think. Of course, every time I tell you how men think, somebody writes back and tells me that I’m wrong. I’ve always found it interesting – the concept of shooting the messenger – but as far as I can tell, I get shot mostly because a) you don’t want to believe that I’m telling the truth or b) you are an exception to the rule, which, of course, doesn’t negate the rule. I can say that it generally gets colder in the winter, and the fact that it may be 79 degrees in LA one day doesn’t mean that it doesn’t get colder in the winter.

In any case, Letters From Strip Clubs is a really entertaining read, right from the horse’s mouth, about why men go to strip clubs. I didn’t find any of it particularly surprising, because I’m, you know, a man. But it’s definitely a worthwhile read.

What resonates most to me is that all of the letters seems a little sad, which describes the state of a lot of men who are just looking for some sort of female connection. These men aren’t to be scorned. Pitied, maybe. But mostly, I hope you understand their loneliness and understand why I spend a lot of time trying to get you to give men a break. You don’t have to like strip clubs, but you can’t deny that their prevalence fills a temporary need for millions of men – not all of whom are scornful perverts, I assure you.

Your thoughts are appreciated, as always.

Join our conversation (141 Comments).
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  1. 31


    My main point was addressing Ann’s comment, about men who visit women to use them for sexual titilation, then devalue these women for the very reasons they use them.And then you make a strange comment that men don’t need to marry these women. No-one said they needed to marry them, Anne called out the hypocracy of men who will devalue that which they are willing to use.

    These are men, that women should stay away from as this is a HUGE red-flag. 

    You are obviously quite welcome to dispense advise, but it’s not always going to be good or healthy for women and I hope you are capable of being challenged rather than suggesting other’s just “be quiet and let you dispense advice”. In this regard, your advice, imo is very poor. 

    Accepting that men like to look at women, is one thing. Accepting the we should support an industry that objectifies women and damages them, their children and society is another issue.

    Both you and your wife, are making a mistake, in supporting this industry. I wonder how you will end up feeling when your daughter turns 12, and is asked by boys at school, to dance like a stripper for their pleasure?

    I come from a country with legalized pretty much everything, and that is exactly what is happening to young women.

    There is being easy going, and then there is being foolish. 

  2. 32

    Evan, if strip clubs are just like a night out at a baseball game, then why wouldn’t men choose the baseball game? My guess is they don’t choose the baseball game because they get something from a strip club that they don’t get from a baseball game. So it kind of worries me that you are asking me to view the two as the same thing. Please don’t mistake my intentions. I think male bonding is really important and completely encourage it! But wouldn’t a better environment be a baseball game and beer with the guys? What’s the need for a strip club as entertainment if baseball games are the same to men? I can only logically determine that there is something men take away from a strip club that is different then a baseball game right? 
    I want my guy to be himself. I want him to pursue the hobbies he enjoys. I want him to have fulfilling relationships with his friends and family. I want him to be happy with work and not feel discouraged by it. I don’t think it’s asking too much to not make strip clubs part of his life style. Are strip clubs that important to men that they define who men are, who he is?
    I want my guy to want me to be who I am too. And I’m not a girl that is comfortable with men in relationships that want to take a brief vacation for a couple hours from their relationship to have fun with other younger more beautiful women. I’m 30. I’m not stupid. I know men like me less and less as I get older. I know men want 18 year olds. Why do men have to throw it in our faces and then act like these things should make us more vulnerable and loving toward them? Why I’m expected to welcome him home with open arms, an open heart and spread legs when what he wanted to do was take a brief vacation from me and our relationship? It’s like I’m expected to congratulate him for having sexy time with other women. 
    No woman wants to be a killjoy. I certainly don’t. But I don’t think it’s fair that men put women in that position to begin with. We are told that men want us for more then our bodies. Except when they are bored with our bodies and want to take some time with sexy younger bodies. Having to be the dutiful loving girlfriend while he wants to indulge himself with other women doesn’t feel very good.  And I feel like there is a lot of shaming going on in your advice to get women to accept something that really, if we are honest with each other, is probably one of the hardest things women regularly have to deal with. Their man’s regular lust for other women. And I do take it personally. I give everything I can in my relationships. That includes controlling my own feelings and emotions when meet with things my boyfriends have done that hurt my feelings. I have never once told a man I thought he was disgusting for liking porn or strip clubs. I never told a man he couldn’t look at porn even though it hurts my feelings that they do. I think it’s unfair to tell women that we need to understand that men like us for so much more then our bodies but we also need to be accepting of his need to use other women for the bodies they have that are probably better then the real women in their life. That’s feels like a lot of pressure and expectations to put on women. 
    I totally get that men want to be accepted. And I want to accept my man. I except their flaws. I don’t have a boyfriend right now but I have accepted alot.  But I can’t think of anything that makes me feel less accepted as a woman for my heart, mind, body and soul then when my man wants to use porn and strip clubs. these things make me feel less loved, less understood and completely judged. Just as my feelings toward these things can make a man feel those same things as you illustrated. So who is right and who is wrong? Am I wrong? Because I have the same feelings he has just from a different vantage point? 
    I don’t want to sublimate a man’s fantasy life. I really don’t. Again, no woman wants to be a killjoy. But no woman enjoys the idea of her husband getting lap dances from 18 year olds then coming home to her old tired butt and it having to be a big sacrifice for him to be with her. But I don’t think that asking a man to use some self control sometimes and skip out on the strip clubs is really that big a demand if I am working hard to keep our sex life open and fun and fresh. Some boundaries in a relationship shouldn’t be seen as a detriment to a man’s sexuality. His feelings and sexuality aren’t the only think at stake here. 
    I am really happy for you that you have a wonderful lady. I am well aware that men give accolades to women that are cool enough for approvel of strip clubs and porn. What’s not to like about that? He can have his cake and eat it too. That’s kind of how I see it. It’s a win win for a man. But as a woman, it’s a daily struggle. Sometimes men’s sexuality is a really wonderful thing. And other times it’s a really scary and threatening thing. I wish more men would understand that and have some kindness in their heart for how hard it can be for women. And not just chalk women up to trying to be killjoys, or prudes, or trying to stamp him down when a lot of women feel beat down by expectations they have to live up to be as sexy as the kind of fantasy women men  repeatedly will turn to. Yes, I know I am insecure. But I think my opinion is still valid. And I think that if men need acceptance from their partners, we can admit that men have their insecurities too.
    Just like men can’t deny their feelings toward things like strip clubs and porn, I can’t deny my own feelings about how these things make me feel. They make me feel unaccepted. Just like men can feel. So how do I rectify my feelings of unacceptance with his own? Are mine worth less then his? 
    I know this is a long post but those are my honest feelings on the subject. If we want men to be honest about their feelings, then we need to let women be honest about theirs too. Thanks for listening. 

    1. 32.1

      You don’t have to accept a man who enjoys the occasional visit to a strip club.  That’s on you.  However, many good men enjoy strip clubs, some for the naked girls, some for a night out with the guys, some for bachelor parties, etc.  If you can get past the fact that he enjoys naked women (and has absolutely no intention of crossing agreed upon boundaries) and are cool with his occasional strip club visit, you’ll make him a very loyal and happy man.  On the flip side, he should be open to you enjoying your own porn, strip clubs, kinks, or whatever else gets you off.

  3. 33

    As a married woman, I agree with both Evan and AnnieC, strange as that may sound – because there are at least two different discussions going on here.  And both of them center around that we make too big a deal out of sex in the US.
    On the one hand, I don’t see men attending strip clubs as any worse than women indulging in chick flicks and romance novels. In fact, it’s unfair to men that we happen to stigmatize sex but not romance in our society, so that women can get our kicks by watching Colin Firth on the screen but men (and strippers) get shamed by their preferences and choices. Now, whether this stigmatization originated from men or from women, or both, I’m not sure, so am not trying to assign blame here.
    On the other hand, I completely agree with AnnieC and Ann that the hypocrisy surrounding men vs. women who participate in strip clubs is intolerable – that men will watch strippers but would never marry them. Again, it boils down to our making too big a deal out of sex in society. Think of it in economic terms: there is a demand, there is a supply. Both sides get their needs met. Why should the suppliers (strippers) be shamed by the demanders (men) as not being worthy of LTRs? I wouldn’t automatically write off men who supplied me a washing machine, research funds, food, or anything else I demanded. @25: It’s not analogous to women supposedly not wanting to marry rockstars or poets because: 1) women do want to marry these guys, and 2) these occupations are not stigmatized to any degree approaching that of strippers.
    The sooner we shed Puritanical notions toward sex, the easier all of this will be. But it won’t be for centuries yet, perhaps.

  4. 34

    So like every other woman on this thread, you’re going to ignore the fact that there are women who go to strip clubs to ogle hot men, and that those clubs are not hurting for customers?  

    Or are we back to acting like only women can be vulnerable and damaged and that stripping when done by men is acceptable b/c men are just animals and love taking off their clothes?

    For the record, I don’t know any woman who goes to strip clubs who would want to date or marry those men either.

    So the hypocrisy and exploitation of the opposite sex goes both ways, but no one here will EVER admit that.   

    As a woman, I get really tired of the insistence that all men are bad and shallow and all women are helpless and exploited by big mean men… 

    1. 34.1

      How many male strip clubs actually exist in comparison to the 100s of thousands of female strip clubs nationally n internationally? Hmmmm let me think….practically none. So let’s get real. That’s why ppl r ignoring the point ur attempting to make. Women r far more hypersexualized than men in modern society ranging from media to strip clubs. Stop reaching.

      1. 34.1.1

        There are a few, usually in cities. Gay clubs are also spots where you can find male dancers and yes, women do go there to look.  Just as men might exploit women for their young bodies, do women not exploit men for money and status?  I know many women who would gladly accept gifts and money from men yet never marry or date them.

  5. 35

    Nicole, you clearly misunderstood me entirely (reread 37, if you will), as I never once insinuated that men were mean or exploitative or that women were the only vulnerable ones.  Nor is “every other woman on this thread” saying that either. 

  6. 36


    You are far more couragous, and secure in yourself, than you give yourself credit for imo. I’ve mentioned something similar myself during these types of discussions, about the “baseball” game, vs strip bar. Of course they are not the same, otherwise, they’d go to the baseball game. Asking us to see it that way, doesn’t make it that way and we all know it.

    I don’t quite have the same insecurity issues around younger womens bodies, although I probably have some experiences that perhaps you may not. (I’m a bit older than you). Men ultimately prefer an authentic, creative enthusiastic woman, despite the fantasy of one that is younger. But your authentic heartfelt view,  is very much how many many women feel, and you have not allowed yourself to be shamed into pretending differently.Kudos to you.

    You made some really great points.


    I think there is a reason that people actually “want” to view sex in a more puritanical way. Puritanical views towards sex, didn’t just appear out of nowhere. Most of society had to agree with it(or they would have rebelled). The only society that has ever successfully negotiated a free-for all sexual society over thousands of years, are matriachal societies. It’s a very complex issue. Add our biological drives, our massive population and our struggle for civility, and it gets even more complex

    Making sex something that is sacred, is far more beneficial for a civilized world than allowing it to become a free-for all. I agree with a lot of what you said though.


    No-one said here that women are always victims, and that men are always perpetrators. In fact I honestly think many men(and women), are very ignorant about the truth of this industry. They want to be liberal, cool, hip relaxed. Because being open minded and accepting of people is often a really wonderful thing and has allowed for many fair and equitable advancements.

    My current partner has watched a lot of porn.  We have talked about this a great deal, and I have made sure in every conversation that he does not, and will not feel shame for his sexual desires. I have however, asked him to read literature, and really really watch porn and what he knows about female sexuality, and pay attention to the industry. He now say’s, that I have ruined porn for him. Good. When the average decent bloke, really pays attention they begin to see the harm.

    I really do not see, that men that are strippers, are in the same situation as women. That may sound hypocritical, and if I am shown to be wrong, then I am all ears but I have yet to hear about a male stripper, at least in western society that is being “exploited”. Women simply do not have the same sexual drives that men do.

  7. 37

    I applaud very very loudly what the women have said on this thread! So glad that you are being honest and speaking out!!!

    I know men who have lost their marriages because of their use of porn and strip clubs. And I know one stripper (relative of my SIL) who was practically destroyed by her experiences in that work. And I know professionals who have lost their reputation because of their after-work shenaningans with clients at strip joints.

  8. 38

    Yes, these letters are sad, but mostly I just find these guys pathetic (esp. the fake huge boob fetishist), and are the type that I would laugh at. They don’t really “deserve” any sympathy. I’ll save that for cancer patients and victims of felony crimes. Losers.

  9. 39

    Hi Evan & Everyone – I, too, do not really “approve” of guys going to strip clubs because:  1)  they make me feel insecure about myself/my relationship and 2) I don’t like the blatant objectification of women, in general.  

    But as Evan stated earlier, I would be able to “deal with it” for the sake of letting my man indulge occasionally with his friends (just looking though – no lap dances!).
    However, I believe that if I’m willing to give my man a “free card” to look at women who are younger, fitter, and prettier than me, I should be able to do the same.  That is, I should be able to hit a “Chip n Dales” for a night out with the girls on the rare occasion.  I would be doing this to fulfill my own fantasy (which is as important as his), curiosity, and also I’d be interested to see how he reacts.  Does he feel the insecurity I do?  If so, we should both talk about it.  If he doesn’t, then I can partake in it as freely as he does.   

    Evan and everyone else – would this be unreasonable in your opinion? 

    1. 39.1

      Not at all unreasonable and a good man would understand that you too, as a sexual human being, have desires and fantasies that should be fulfilled within certain boundaries.  I would be all for my gf having a girls night out at such a place.  Hell, if I wanted to go to a strip club, I’d love for my gf to join me.

  10. 40

    @Pat, Chip n Dale are cartoon chipmunks…but hey, if that is your ultimate fantasy, go for it.  

  11. 41


    You said “Evan and everyone else – would this be unreasonable in your opinion? ”

    The question I have for you is, are you sexually aroused by these men?

    If so, then yes it would be a fair trade, sort of like an open relationship. If not, then no.

    Women are not looking to become aroused by men, when they go to strippers for the most part. They tend to scream, giggle and get ridiculous, but the men are a joke and not even remotely a turn on.

    Men are looking to be aroused by females, when they go to strippers.

    It’s a difference, between male and female sexuality. And it is a pitymore women do not understand this because they are trying so hard to be fair, hip, cool…and like “one of the guys” that they think they are one and the same.

    Big mistake. 

  12. 42
    Saint Stephen

    @AnnieC (#45)
    So the real motive behind you not wanting men (your SO) to go to strip clubs is because you don’t get to benefit from it as much as men do. That sounds selfish to me.

    Since you explicitly understand the disparity between male and female sexuality, why can’t you just work with that? Men are wired to objectify women so you should just get over it.

    If u’re a woman who gets excited and aroused by reading thrills & booms and your SO asked you to quit or he ends the relationship, would you feel happy or resentful and bitter about it? And if you feel resentful towards him do you think the relationship would be a happy one?  

  13. 43


    @AnnieC (#45)
    So the real motive behind you not wanting men (your SO) to go to strip clubs is because you don’t get to benefit from it as much as men do. That sounds selfish to me. 

    I indicated that a man and woman going to a strip club doesn’t MEAN the same thing to men and women, therefore it cannot be compared as the same thing. If I wanted the same sexual titillation as a stripper does for a man that would require an affair on my part. That, is what is equal in terms of our female, male sexual states.

    You said

    “Men are wired to objectify women so you should just get over it. ”

    The first part of that, is the nail on the head. The 2nd part, is the issue.

    Women are not objects. women are not a sport, or a means to an end, They are people, with thoughts, feelings, ambitions, their own identity. 

    Thanks for saying that. That is actually the entire point. It is far too easy for men to objectify women sexually. It isn’t entirely men’s fault, because it comes down to their early sexual experiences with arousal. IE..something gets aroused..and the young boy..objectifies his penis, because it doesn’t “seem”like it’s a part of him. And in turn objectifies that which his penis seems to “light up” over…female body parts.

    The mind, doesn’t quite yet comprehend what is going on. So objectification is VERY VERY easy for a man to do. That IS THE POINT!!

    And I accept that. What I am saying is that it is not okay to objectify women just because men want to, and men need to learn how NOT to do that, rather than us women support.

    Because wether you like it or not, women are not fools. When they are no longer respected and they are used, they will use you back. You will be sperm, you will be money, you will be ego. It’s all fun and games, when you claim another must accept their objectification, it’s highly offensive when it happens to you.

    I accept that you objectify. I’m asking you not to. Because it hurts women and a social belief that treating another like a means to an end, hurts everyone.

    And when you ask me for help, in the family courts, the DV brigade and the false rape establishment along with alimony and unfair child support..IE the objectification of men..I will help you.

    I ask you for the same respect. Do not support anything that objectifies women and do not accept it. A lap dance is never just a lapdance. And sex is never “just” sex.

  14. 44

    @AnnieC (47)

    I agree with most of what you said.  My question to you is, given your viewpoint, how would you handle the situation of a boyfriend/husband wanting to go to strip clubs or watch porn by himself?   

  15. 45

    Blame it ALL on feminism!
    Yes, you got that right. Feminism has messed up the normal relationship that ought to exist between men and women. Instead we have this convoluted mess. Both men and women are trying to meet their needs at unsatisfactory outlets. Men use strip clubs, massage parlors, and porn; women use antidepressant pills, sex toys, and provision of easy sex to get male love or its substitute. It’s a really messed up world.

  16. 46

    @Pat, I know this is an old thread, not sure if you are still reading,

    I won’t tolerate porn watching or strip club going-ons. It’s a choice that he makes. And I make a choice, in choosing not to be with him.

    The difference between myself( I think) and other women who struggle with it is that society has women convinced that when they take issue with porn, it is THEIR problem. This is so bad, that women are now convinced to act like strippers and porn stars to turn on their men. Of course, they will get tired of this in a marriage, and will no longer try and then the men will complain. It’s ridiculous. They say men are just exhibiting their natural male nature and women shouldn’t be so “prudish” and “silly” and “emotional”.

    But of course when you come across the natural female nature, which is to create babies and have some-one care for you and pay for you while you raise them, men complain and say they are being used.

    Nobody wants to be treated as a means to an end. Men will say, that sex and sexual stimulation is no big deal. I say to them, if it’s no big deal, then you will have no issue, not supporting that industry. 

    Of course sex is a big deal to men. It’s why it is the 3rd largest black-money market in the world, and why human trafficking of women and children is on the increase.

    So any man that say’s it’s not a big deal, it’s “just like a sport” is kidding himself and lying to you. He wants his cake and eat it too. No go, sorry.

  17. 47
    Saint Stephen

    Has it occurred to you that men watch porn to learn new sex techniques and become better lovers? What about taking care of his male desire and in return he takes care of your female desire? Talk about a win win situation. 

  18. 48

    [email protected]

    Using porn to learn new sex techniques is like watching a movie to learn how to drive a car.  And besides, porn isn’t about women’s pleasure. Never has been.   I sincerely doubt that you are concerned about the woman’s ‘pleasure’ while you are watching porn… and men who do it routinely get a distorted image of both women’s bodies and women’s sexuality.  We aren’t here to be cum dumpsters.

    [email protected]

    I won’t date men who watch porn or go to strip clubs either…  I’ve watched porn before and went to at least three strip clubs in various locations before I came to this conclusion.  I agree that there is nothing ‘healthy’ about it for anyone.  

    I found it all rather pathetic and sad…  I don’t feel threatened by it in the least either.  It just makes me lose respect for the man.


    1. 48.1

      So if you found your faithful man had a fetish for licking sweaty feet or liked to be tied up and spanked, you’d be down for satisfying those desires?  Or would you tell him he’s a pervert and dismiss his sexuality?

  19. 49

    [email protected]

    I probably wouldn’t confront a guy I was with… or tear him down about it.  I wouldn’t feel jealous or threatened either.  I’d just fall out of love with him and find something else to do (or some other man to ‘do’).  And when we are in bed together, I’ll remember that to him, women are mostly just orifices and ‘sport’… and I will act accordingly.  He will not get my full love.  There will always be a wall there, no matter what else he says or does.  

    Porn and strip clubs are one way that men kill the love their partners have for them.  Silence doesn’t = acceptance.  These are slow but steady withdrawals that men are making from their ‘love’ bank… and every time they engage in it, they are draining the life from their relationship… drop by drop.

    75% of divorces are initiated by women.  Wanna know why?  Neglect.  Lack of respect for her feelings.  Compartmentalization. 


  20. 50


    Sex is not about technique. It is about 2 people, who are choosing an intimate act, that can be an expression of love, fun, acceptance, friendship and desire.

    Sex, is also…the act of pro-creation. Sex = a Child.

    How can you learn about sex, from porn? How can a woman learn about romance, from a movie that ends in a wedding ring? You can’t.

    You say that you watch things to learn technique, I can guarentee you, you are just learning mechanics. This does not teach you to be a lover of women. This does not teach you how to get a woman interested IN sex with you continually and consistantly throughout your life. It just teaches you “some” technique(and poorly at that) IF the woman is interested.

    Do you k now how to get her interested in the first place? and more importantly, do you know how to KEEP her interested?

    Think about this…Women can masturbate and orgasm, therefore why do we really need you sexually if we just want to “come” through pornographic techniques.?

    Sex isn’t about technique, that can be learned and everyone is different. A great sex life, relies on a great relationship. And that is what porn/strippers/prostituties does not teach. It provides a reward that is supposed to be the end result of something that takes work, Ie a relationship.

    Intimacy cannot be bought or sold. It must be earned, through human relationship, not $$$ 

  21. 51
    Saint Stephen

    I say this as a guy who don’t do casual flings.
    I started watching porn at a young age and still do. When i eventually get married I’ll tell my wife why I watch it and how it has been a part of my life for long and is no different than a favorite genre of movie or music. It has also helped me learn many techniques in bed that will keep her satisfied and make our sex life more satisfying. I have a whole box of new tricks now.
    When someone wants to learn to workout, they watch workout videos. When you want to learn to cook, you watch Food-Tv programs. People who are learning to dance watch dance videos for new tricks. When you want to learn to have good sex, you simply watch porn, period.Saying or thinking that watching porn is a sub form of cheating or makes someone  an advocate of female objectification is just like saying watching a serial killing movies makes you an accomplice or an endorser of murder.
    Watching porn is not cheating and most men actually use it as a tool to improve their sex lives. A lot of women think men watch Xrated movies for whatever reason, and just because “They” think it, it must be true. But just because something is how you “Think” it is, doesn’t mean that’s how it is.  

  22. 52
    Saint Stephen

    I respectfully disagree with your comment @54.
    Lots and lots of women have stayed in abusive relationships/marriages due to a healthy dosage of good quality sex.

    If what u said happens to be actually correct we wouldn’t see women gravitating towards jerks who possess sexual prowess. They would be dating the nice guys. Your looks and attitude first, will get a woman interested in you and afterwards good sex will keep her around.

    If I’m going to spend the rest of my life “making love” to one woman it needs to be exciting with everyday seeming like a new day or else it just gets boring and begins to feel like a chore.  I want a woman that will be open minded for us to explore our sexuality together (trying out new patterns we (or I) learn from porn).

  23. 53

    [email protected]

    …and one more time… porn isn’t about a woman’s pleasure.  What you are ‘learning’ there is absolutely bogus.   Even worse, you are internalizing expectations of reactions from the female ACTORS… But I suppose that never occurred to you.

    I predict your partner will be having lots of fake orgasms, just like the porn stars.  LOL.  and that you won’t even know the difference.   Even funnier…

    and about the analogy to horror movies… yea, I don’t date men who like violent movies, and especially not horror movies.  The latter is actually a deal breaker with me.  It doesn’t make him a serial killer, but anyone who enjoys watching something suffer and calls it entertainment is sick and not to be trusted.  Same goes with men who watch porn. 

    They usually are narcisstic to the extreme and couldn’t care less about pleasing a woman.   To them, women are just orifices and a ‘prop’ in their little sex play.  Women are there for their pleasure, just like in their favorite porn movie.  They aren’t human beings… notice the absence of a plot or any real dialogue in porn? (other than the b*tch, c*nt, sl*t name calling perhaps)… There is a reason for that. 

    Yea, you aren’t talking to some naive little waif who goes on assumptions.  I’ve seen what you guys watch… and have been to where you go.  It’s a laugh riot.

    1. 53.1

      Horror movies are a deal breaker???  You really think people who enjoy them are sick??  Wow.

  24. 54
    Saint Stephen

    Ray @33

    Women initiate divorce for lots of reasons. Emotional and physical abuse being the majority. I’d also argue that these women got into abusive marriages partially or completely by their own making. But i wont go into that now to forestall the thread from derailing. 

  25. 55

    [email protected]

    to get back on topic… One could argue that if it weren’t for women willing to be prostitutes, porn stars, and strip club dancers, then men wouldn’t be ‘tempted’.  THat doesn’t exempt men from their personal responsibility to make other choices. 

    Not sure what you mean by ‘of their own making’.  My observation of abusers is that they are skilled in the pathology of dependence.  I think everyone has witnessed this… either in their job by a particularly abusive boss, a partner, or a friend.   I used to work for a company that I could swear had this technique down to a science in order to keep their employees loyal… and literally destroy those they no longer wanted or lwhom wanted to leave.  

    First, they isolate you

    THen they slowly whittle away at your self esteem

    … until, ultimately, you start to believe you can’t possibly live without them (their company, their companionship, their ‘whatever’ it is they want you to accept).


  26. 56
    Saint Stephen

    @Ray (#57)
    By your response, I presume you must’ve been watching the wrong types of porn or haven’t watched a variety and therefore u’ve run to premature conclusion based on the few ones you watched. You should Try watching Karma Sutra.
    Oh and for the last time there is nothing wrong with watching porn. Many perfectly normal relationship oriented men i know – watch it. Some of them are even married

    The reason you disagree with me is not because I’m wrong about my assertions that men use porn to develop their sexual skill, rather is because of your insecurities born out of not being able to compete or compare with the porn actress in terms of looks and prowess.

    Judging by the premise of your entire post on this subject I’ve come to the following conclusions that;
    1)Virtually every man would have to pass through the eye of a needle just to be with someone like you.
    2)The type of man you would want to be with is either someone who developed his sexual skills by experience, and when i mean experience I’m talking about a man who had slept around with so many different women – and this type might eventually cheat on you and leave you for some other woman.
    Or a man who is lame and inexperienced in bed and isn’t interested in improvement – And on this one you would be the one to eventually resent and dump him. 

  27. 57
    Saint Stephen

    Ray @59

    You can’t control the actions of other people – You can only control yours.
    I don’t endorse abusive behaviors in either genders, but I’d rather avoid getting into one than waste my life whining about it.

    I’ve never seen any woman who screened for a man’s character first and foremost and still wound up getting into an abusive marriage. But again, I said i won’t veer the premise of this thread.

  28. 58


    You are the end result of a culture of porn and you don’t even realize it.

    Your belittling comments as to why women dislike porn(we can’t compete yadda yadda yadda), is another attempt to shame women into submission. It doesn’t work. Not all of us are that easily manipulated. We know why we dislike it, if you’d like to know..then ask us. Don’t assume.

    Your views on experience are also wrong imo. Men who sleep around with many different women are not good in bed. They are usually horrible at it as their sex lives are a result of seeing sex as an act of self-gratification. Same with those that watch porn. Women don’t go for these bad-boys because of their sexual prowess for goodness sake.

    And you will not learn about how to get and maintain a long-term healthy sexual relationship from watching porn. If men are doing it for that reason, then they are making a mistake. How many of these men, who are learning from porn simply watch it and don’t masturbate to it? Please..it’s about self-gratification. At least be honest about it.

    Experience with ONE person, learning over time through talking, sharing, playing and being very deeply honest is how you end up with great sex. I have no interest in the player that fools around or the porn user. Give me the enthusiastic virgin or sexually naive man any day over the player. 

    You can claim there is nothing wrong with watching porn(or strippers). Many people make that claim. We believe they are wrong and if you’d like to actually learn why, try listening to others and reading about it so you can at least understand the alternative point of view even if you don’t agree with it.

  29. 59


    People do not stay in abusive relationships due to sex. The reasons they do  this are very very complicated. Read up on the terms, co-dependancy, emotional Incest, Borderline personality disorders, and narcissistic personality disorders to begin with.

    People gravitate towards those with a similar level of emotional/psychological development. Sex is a very small piece of the pie, particularly for women.

  30. 60
    Saint Stephen

    AnnieC, actually this comment below, kind of refutes your assertions on post #63. Had to copy it from another thread just to buttress my point @56.

    evan, you are so funny.  i can relate to jennifer. i am still pinning over my last boyfriend who was an alpha male (he took off with another chick 8 months ago whom he met at the pub while i was away). i have to ask myself every day what is it that i miss so much about him and then i have to remind myself to thank god every day that he’s gone and that he’s now toxic to some other poor/desperate women.  he lied to me, he cheated on me, he never spent time with me, he didn’t give me anything or take my anywhere, he didn’t listen to me. i was miserable and yet i couldn’t let go (and i’m pretty, fun to be with, easy going with a masters in engineering and had other guys trying to crack onto me). so what was it that would have made me hold on for the rest of my life if he’d have me … “it was the sex” – “it was like a drug” (the ultimate high which i had to have more of even though being with him was making me soul sick – and no, i’m not a nympho). it was best i’d ever had and i thought it was a reflection of the way he felt about me. and it was all the bull$hit he said about himself which was designed to make me think he was a hero. but the sad reality was that he was obviously good in bed with all women (because he said “i’ve been told i’m good in bed”) and the bull$hitting about being a hero was to hide the fact that if i knew what he’d really done (cheated on his ex-wife, was a total as$hole to live with) etc, few women would go near him in the first place. and yet, i still miss him like crazy.  

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