Male vs. Female Sexual Market Value

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As you may know, I’m really big on statistics, metrics, heuristics, anything data-driven that is going to bring objectivity to something as subjective and emotional as dating.

I think it’s important that you know that 95% of people eventually get married.

Or that 95% of the country practices premarital sex.

Or that only 14% of men are over 6 feet tall.

And 5% makes over 100k.

Numbers put reality into perspective, and, from there, we can make healthy and informed decisions about love.

Nowhere do things get messier than when discussing the “sexual market value” of men and women.

But nowhere do things get messier than when discussing the “sexual market value” of men and women. We’ve touched on it in many forms before. Why older men want younger women. Why older women want younger men. How many emails men and women get on dating sites. The availability and merits of 7s vs. 10s. Lori Gottlieb’s seminal book, “Marry Him: The Case for Settling For Mr. Good Enough” is pretty much a meditation on this very subject. Gottlieb discovered that while she was in her early 30’s, passing up on the 7’s and holding out for a 10, by the time she reached her late 30’s, the 10’s were only interested in women in their early 30’s. Furthermore, the quality of the men available to her as a 39-year-old who wanted her own biological children was closer to a 5 (in her mind). Yes, I know these numbers are gauche, but we’re trying to establish a pattern. Not based on our feelings about how things should be or what would be right and just and fair. But simply by observing the behaviors and desires of men and women.

Enter Susan Walsh at Hooking Up Smart. I haven’t met Ms. Walsh, but I feel like we’re probably kindred spirits, because she decided to post this long, wonky post with a number of charts and graphs.

The premise of her post was to establish which gender, if any, had greater sexual market value – which is to say, more enduring appeal to the opposite sex over time. The term market value seems crude, but it’s the best possible term because, like economic market forces of supply and demand, these are completely self-regulating. If a man thinks he can date a 10, but no 10’s want him, then, evidently, he’s overestimated his sexual market value. If a woman dates online and thinks she can date a man 10 years younger because she “looks good for her age”, but no men 10 years younger give her the time of day (apart from requests for NSA sex), then, well, she, too, has overestimated her sexual market value. Essentially, whether you’re a 3 or a 10 is not really your decision. The market will tell you what you can command. Just as it does with your own salary. Anyone who holds out for a 500K salary but finds that no one is willing to pay it will remain unemployed for a really, really long time. Anyway, back to the original premise:

I think we can agree in general that young women remain particularly appealing to men, even when it gets a bit creepy.

I think we can also agree that, for whatever reason, older men seem have more dating options than older women. There are exceptions, of course, but there are more 50-60-year-old men dating 5-10 years younger than women dating men 5-10 years younger.

I think we can agree in general that young women remain particularly appealing to men, even when it gets a bit creepy.

Based on this, there is a perception that men have greater sexual market value than women. This opinion is particularly espoused by hardcore men’s groups, because it’s an appealing narrative. They say something to the effect of: “American women are way too picky, way too masculine, way too selfish. But due to biology, I can be that 45-year-old guy who is hooking up with 27-year-old women while 45-year-old women turn into angry spinsters.” These are not my sentiments, but we do see them occasionally expressed in the comments section below, usually by dorky guys without much game who play the “biology” card early and often. Enter Susan Walsh. Using data from 200,000 people on OkCupid, Walsh takes on these men who overestimate their appeal to younger women and gives them a good old-fashioned scientific smackdown, concluding:

Mean male sexual value over 30 year period: 40.0

Mean female sexual value over 30 year period: 39.9

By this unbiased calculation of actual data, the male and female of the species exhibit the same sexual market value.

The OKCupid chart has good, reliable information for both sexes. Women need to understand that the male curve lags the female curve by about five years, is flatter and a little wider. That means you’ll have more competition from younger women as you age. You will never be hotter than you are at 22, so plan accordingly.

It’s important to recognize that some men display a motive for artificially elevating the SMV of aging males, so ignore any wisdom characterized as “red pill.”

In my own coaching materials, I always suggested that a woman’s peak was 27-30 in terms of her desirability to the most men, and that a man’s peak was 35-39. I’m going to stick with that premise, since I think OkCupid’s data skews young. In other words, while a 22-year-old may be hot, most 41-year-old quality men would never actually date or marry one. So to all of the readers in my core demographic: 35-55, have no fear. As long as most 22-year-olds are creeped out by 40-year-old guys, there are no shortage of men out there for you.

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

Join our conversation (314 Comments).
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Comments:

  1. 21
    Morris

    I agree that in general men will peak later than women.   Men value traits that tend to skew younger.   Women value traits that tend to skew older.   But men shouldn’t fool themselves to think they will peak later in like simple because of age.   And women shouldn’t think they can’t peak older simple because of age.
      
    Men.   First you have to be climbing the food change as you age in order to be a better provider to even think this might apply to you.   If you aren’t smarter, richer and didn’t take care of yourself I don’t really think this applies to you.
      
    Women it’s true.   Physically a young 20 something is at the top of the beauty food chain.   But no serious man in his 30’s-40’s is going to want to marry a 20 year old.   And if you got fit and you weren’t fit in your early 20’s.   Or you had bad acne problems in your early 20’s and now you don’t.   Congratulation this probably doesn’t apply to you.

  2. 22
    Julia

    I personally think that at 32, I am more attractive than I was 5 years ago…but I digress…
    I never understood why people took so much offense to men peaking slightly later. I prefer men 4-10 years older than me so it works out fine. I am currently dating a man 7 years older than me, I find him very attractive and he thinks I am beautiful and youthful. I wouldn’t want to date men in their 20s, I tried to be open but I found interacting with men even 4 years younger than me to be a turnoff. I’ve grown accustomed to how a man in his mid-late 30s can treat me. He can take me out a few times a week or take me away for a weekend. I routinely got “date” offers from 27 year olds that involved going to his place to watch netflix. I think we all have room to date a few years up or down. However, to the men (and women) who think they can easily get a partner 15-20 years younger than them, unless you are exceptional and don’t minding dating less attractive as a trade off for much younger, you are probably going to find yourself striking out time and again.

  3. 23
    judy

    This article  creeped me out.   I have seen men who are 😯 and are very very sexually attractive.   It isn’t just about the body, although it helps.   And, although to be frank, I prefer men who are younger than that, sometimes it ain’t because you’ve got the body and the “power” to use it that you are still attractive.   I did   know a man of 60 who was well into body building but his mentality and general lack of courtesy put me off.
      

  4. 24
    Fusee

    Although I find this topic fun to read about once in a while, I believe the data to only be relevant to folks into the challenge of (briefly) dating the hottest or most successful person possible. Basically, for those folks into casual sex.
      
    For people who wish to develop a happy and healthy long-term relationship with a like-minded and compatible partner, I find pointless to worry about such data. Why? Because at the end of the day, people who are really looking for a serious relationship and who are mature enough to develop one will not care that much about “Sexual Market Value”. They will focus on how much they click, on their compatibility, on each other’s character, etc.
      
    Sure, SMV data explain trends and why people tick the boxes they tick on dating websites, but when two people meet and feel a connexion, all that stuff stop mattering. Those who can’t get pass their tick boxes and what they think they deserve according to their (perceived) SMV remain… what’s the word again? Oh, yes: single.
      
    So to women who worry that they have missed the boat because of such data: Stop the negative thinking! What matters for a successful long-term relationship is your Relationship Market Value, which we have a much larger amount of control upon.
      
    Although there was always a man willing to f*ck me when I was in my twenties, I was far, far, so far from my Sexual Market Value Peak. I actually reached my Relationship Market Value Peak first at age 30 and it looks like I just reached my Sexual Market Value Peak at 35. My husband finds me even more sexy and attractive now that when I was 32, go figure.
      
    So women reach their SMV peak at different ages/life stages, depending on many more factors than just their birth year. Same for men. People can reach (and plateau) at their Relationship Market Value Peak way past their Sexual Market Value one.

    1. 24.1
      Cat5

      That’s great Fusee that your husband finds you more sexy now than at 32.   Btw – I notice you didn’t say how old you are now.
      It’s also significantly different when you are married.   My now ex-husband thought that I was more sexy in m 30s and 40s than when he met me in my 20s.   But, we are divorced now.
      So unless you are divorced and in your 50s, I’m not sure you can appreciate the difference.   The difference between when I went on-line at age 45 (where I met my now ex-boyfriend) and now that I’m single again at 50…is significant.
      Do I attribute that soley to age? No.   But, it is a significant factor.   The other factor that I think is significant is the advent of texting and all the women willing to send partially naked and naked pictures to men they have never met.
      Texting rather than phone calls is also a problem.   It makes it hard to connect with a person, and many men use it as a way to weed through women.   Between texting and receiving naked pictures, it distracts men for taking the time to get to know the women who won’t.   It’s about instant gratification, instead of taking the time to find out who has character and class, and who doesn’t.
      Worst part is…I want to, and will have more sex with a guy I am in a committed relationship now then I did in my 20s, 30, or 40s (and most women I know did/do at those ages).   But, the only guys who seem to get that are guys in their 20s, 30s, 60s, and 70s…none of which do I find myself attracted to.   I wish guys in an appropriate age range understood that…and stopped only texting and asking for “pictures.”

      1. 24.1.1
        Tom10

        @ Cat5 #24.1
        “That’s great Fusee that your husband finds you more sexy now than at 32.   Btw — I notice you didn’t say how old you are now.”
          
        Fusee wrote #24:
        “I actually reached my Relationship Market Value Peak first at age 30 and it looks like I just reached my Sexual Market Value Peak at 35”
          
          
        Um, I’m going to take a huge leap here and guess that she’s 35 Cat.

    2. 24.2
      starthrower68

      One of the advantages of having little to no SMV is, the pressure is off.   I speak from firsthand experience. 😜

      1. 24.2.1
        EmeraldDust

        Worst SMV is to be in the middle. Or slightly above.   Cute enough for casual, not hot enough for keeps.   Sometimes I just want to stop coloring my hair and eat whatever I want. And no more make up & heels.   Just barefaced and “sensible shoes”. Maybe adopt the stray cat in our neighborhood.        If I just let myself be fat & gray no one would even want to slum it with me for an NSA booty call.   But I refuse to wear the lime green polyester pants. 🙂

        1. starthrower68

          See, ED, I like yer thinkin!   Now, I won’t wear the lime green polyester slacks, but I do want some neutral pairs (with the elastic waistband) and fake crease to go with the various and sundry cat t-shirts and sweatshirts I will order from Haband For Her.   I will also go to K-Mart and get some of those Grasshoppers Oxford shoes in a few colors too.   If you’re going to throw in the towel, do it in style.   I might just go buy a new wardrobe at Bon Worth.   

        2. EmeraldDust

          ST68- Don’t forget — Christmas is right around the corner, time to get an ugly Christmas sweater !   Since I live in the SW, I’m thinking a light up sweater with a saguaro cactus with Christmas lights. And of course, polyester pants with the elastic waistband “chest huggers”.   And some white Ked sneakers.   And of course, Christmas wouldn’t be complete if I didn’t send the young ones in my family some ugly crocheted thing-a-ma-bobby that they would be forced to write me a thank you note for.  
          Seriously though, I might have to go back to my other moniker SparklingEmerald.   Every time I see my name abbreviated to ED I think of Bob Dole shilling for Viagara and talking about his Erectile Dysfunction.   Or the fact that EmeraldDust is slang for marijuana.  
            

        3. Traveller

          @EmeraldDust:

          As an over-40 man, I agree completely. No woman ever has anything BAD to say about me; I’m always a “great guy”, but I’m just not quite hot enough (or tall enough, or rich enough, or whatever) to be worth her time. And by the time she figures out that all the “hot” guys are taken, gay or looking for equally “hot” women, she’ll be ready for Social Security… and still single.

          Lori Gottlieb has it right.

  5. 25
    Tom10

      
    @ Sabine #15.1
    “If a person took a six month “breather” to get their head straight, is this a bad thing?”
      
    I  would say no, it’s not a bad thing. It is probably more harmful than beneficial to date if your head is not straight. Rejection is always a possibility/probability when dating therefore one needs to be in a good place mentally to deal with this.
      
    “Can you tell if some one has not dated in years unless they so?”  
      
    It depends on the person you’re dating. I can often tell as people who haven’t dated in years can have naively unrealistic expectations early in the dating process. One great date and they think they’re on the path to a relationship. More seasoned daters tend to hold back a bit on the enthusiasm and ease in slowly, as they are more wary of being burned.
      
    @ Kiki #17
    “I am turning into my own grandmother, thinking what what advice I need to give to my now 10 year old daughter, about boys. It really is scary :-)”
      
    It’s not really. You just have to tell her to never confuse (sexual) interest from a guy with genuine interest (i.e. just because he’ll sleep with her doesn’t mean he would ever consider committing to her) – no matter how good-looking, charming, educated, funny or harmless he is.
      
    —————–
      
    Before there were any comments I had a suspicion that this discussion might involve:
      
    Men: I can get lots of young chicks; therefore women should stop having unrealistic expectations, should lower their standards and take the next guy who will have her before it’s too late.
      
    Women: We only want our peers; old guys are creepy and delusional therefore men should stop hitting on young women and concentrate on women their own age.
      
    I take all such comments with a grain of salt as their motives are quite transparent. It is in the interest of men to scare women into lowering their standards and “settle” (for guys just like them!), and it is in the interest of women to stigmatize the behavior of men (by calling them creepy) to prevent them following their instinctive attraction to youth and beauty (so that they will date women just like them!).
      
    I agree somewhat with Still-Looking and Fusee that discussing Sexual Market Value isn’t particularly relevant — what’s more important is discussing Sexual Market Value in conjunction with Commitment Market Value — and how these values change over time – as this is the where the crux in dating lies.
      
    It seems obvious to me that women will always have a higher Sexual Market Value than men — no matter her age. Even an average woman can walk into almost any bar, in any city, in any country, on any day of the week and get sex (not that they want to) — do women realize that they can do this? Very few men (if any) can pull this off. However, the flipside is that it doesn’t take a genius to work out that things work a little differently when it comes to Commitment Market Value.
      
    These two different Market Values change differently in time for both genders, and this is what makes the dating game so interesting.

  6. 26
    SparklingEmerald

    EMK said
    “Either way, Locotus is gone. I got sick of having to edit his inflammatory and insulting posts. It’s not that he didn’t have somewhat of a point about the hypocrisy of some of our female readers. To wit: Women would go crazy if a man said that women over 40 were old hags, but men are not supposed to be offended if you say men over 40 hitting on younger women are creepy.”
    ————————–
    I would not jump on a 20 year old guy who said women in their   40’s are old hags.   I don’t expect most men to be attracted to women old enough to be their mothers.   I also don’t think it’s particularly insulting that most women feel creeped out to be hit on by men old enough to be their dads.   I do however find it hypocrtitical when 40 year old men say 40 year women are old hags and will only go after women in their 20’s.   Why do I say this is hypocrisy ?   They refuse to date people their own age and simultaneosly expect 20 something women to find them attractive.
    In my younger days, I actually liked men 10-15 years older,   but I realize now that, that was a bit unusual. Now that I’m older myself, I like to cap it off at 10 years older MAX, but if the guy is in good health and shape, I look at the entire picture.
    I’ve been getting hit on a lot by young men in my online dating profile.   Today I had a 29 year old and two 30 year olds hit on me.   Of course, I look at their profile, and they all have some sort of casual relationship intention. Then I delete their e-mail with no response. (I would do this no matter what their profile says, I just peek out of curiosity)   It creeps me out to have guys young enough to be my son hitting on me.   It also creeps me out that they think because of my age that I must be so desparate for male attention that I’ll answer a booty call from a man young enough to be my son.   YUCK !   Or maybe they think I must have lots of money, so I’ll be their sugar mama.   Too bad for them, ‘cuz I’m not desperate, rich or interested.
      

    1. 26.1
      marymary

      I don’t think anyone calling anyone else an old hag or creepy is acceptable.  
      As for these younger men, I expect they’re  hitting on women their own age or younger as well.   They cast a wide net. Do they think you’re desperate or   that there’s less drama with older  women? Or think you’ll be like Samantha in SATC?  But without going into the psyche of each one you’ll never know.   Just ignore em! There will always be all kinds of men giving us attention until …  the attention stops.   So it could be worse!  
      I agree that it’s very weird to hear people slagging off their own age group as too old.  
      I read an article in allure citing a study where most women, if they could, would stop the clock at about age 33.   I agree with that.   I don’t think I would want to look as “bland” as I did in my 20s.   At 33 I in no way looked old.   As we count in base 10, 20, 30, 40 etc has great significance  .    It can’t be that in the 365 days between 29 and 30 we all become markedly more aged!   Younger people will look young  for longer though.   But I do think after a couple of years with someone you truly love, you just love them regardless of their “market value”. I find that my boyfriend is more attractive to me than he was when we met, but he’s probably  the same.  
      “Transforming the world like the eye in love”   Craig Raine
        
        

      1. 26.1.1
        Julia

        That stopping the clock at age 33 thing is great. As I approach 33 (in 4 months 😛 ) I couldn’t agree more. I am finally at the point where I am happy with myself, everything about me. I also think I look a lot better than I did in my twenties (part of it about weight, though I was the same size in my late twenties. The other part is that I always had a round face and have lost some of my cheek fat with a bit of age, I think I look more elegant now)
          
        About calling men creepy, yes I will call a many creepy for many reasons. I call the men who holler about my body or ask me if I want a ride when I am walking down the street creepy. I also called the men in their mid-fifties to early sixties who used to message me on dating sites creepy. There are lots of creeps out there, this isn’t shocking.

        1. Karmic Equation

          Instead of feeling victimized or threatened by those men’s actions, try to feel sorry for them. They don’t know any better and you can be sure that for many, their love lives suffer because they’re so…unaware.
            
          One time at karaoke, a 50 yo man, heavy set, good voice, bad enunciator (I couldn’t ever tell what he was singing although he was on key) — he was trying to get the attention of this young woman, probably late 20’s. He sent her drinks. Sent over a flower. Generally hovered over her. It was mortifying for me to WATCH him do this. It was just so sad and it my skin crawl with discomfort. The girl was trying to be nice and not reject directly, because he was a nice man. But it was excruciating to see him behave like that. I was sad for him because he debased himself imo.

        2. Julia

          @KE I don’t feel victimized by old dude on the internet, however, I think the way some men approach me on the street is a way of them asserting themselves on me, to make me feel intimidated or to lose my power. I can’t even begin to describe the things men have said and done to me in the past several years. This includes slowly following with their car while I was walking home at night, literally following me home, screaming at me when I ignore them, etc. I am calling a spade a spade, some men really are creeps.

  7. 27
    henriette

    EMK wrote, “It’s not that he didn’t have somewhat of a point about the hypocrisy of some of our female readers. To wit: Women would go crazy if a man said that women over 40 were old hags, but men are not supposed to be offended if you say men over 40 hitting on younger women are creepy.”
    ———————————————————————-
    I have to agree with Sparkling Emerald in this case;   I don’t see any hypocrisy in these women’s responses.   If they were saying it’s creepy when 40-something men hit on 20-something women while chiding young men for finding significantly older women unappealing, I would see a disconnect.    
      
    I’m sorry to see Locutus go since he made some interesting points and often gave me pause for thought, even (especially) when I disagreed with him, but of course I respect EMK’s wishes to run this blog as he sees fit.
      
    As far as women hitting their attractiveness peak at 22, that might well be the case.   However, I agree whole-heartedly with EMK who stated, in another blog post, that he thinks people should really wait ’til their 30s to wed.   Sure, at 22 women might be lithe, smooth-skinned and very fertile; these qualities are sure to bring her heaps of attention.   But being at one’s most sexually alluring does not correlate with being at one’s most prepared for being a good spouse; just look at the divorce rate for people who marry under the age 0f 25!

  8. 28
    judy

    Kiki17 – I told my own daughter that she should only make love when there is love involved.   Can’t say that she always did that, but the advice did sink in eventually.   If a woman allows herself to be cheap sex, she’ll be it.

    1. 28.1
      Kiki

      @July 28,
      Judy, thanks for sharing your opinion, I appreciate it. The problem for me is that this is not how I think about sex in my heart of hearts. I have considered telling her this, because I think normal mothers should say that, but this is actually not my sincere opinion.
      I think sex can be a fantastic experience for a woman even without love, if she feels confident in her own attractiveness, motivations, and has taken care not to get pregnant and catch a STD.   Love would be great, but is not a requirement. Maybe I think like a man/ am like a man, we have had already had several discussions on this blog   on the topic.   I also do not think women bond through sex any more than men do.   I think educating a woman to think along the lines of “cheap sex” versus “sex with love” is insincere.   Now the problem is that she is only 10 years old, and whereas I can have an intellingent discussion on the topic with a grown up woman, I am not sure I can spell it out in a meaningful way to a child.   So I might stick to the “do not do it without love” for simplicity. Not that this has saved any woman any heartache :-).

    2. 28.2
      Karmic Equation

      How would you teach your girl the difference between having sex WITH love assured and having sex hoping FOR love? Even now too many women get them confused. There’s never any guarantees, unless the person you’re having sex with actually SAYS “I love you” before you both engage in sex. In this day and age, is that a possibility for non-Amish people? I think not.

      Teach her to judge a man’s character, not his words. Words are cheap. Actions speak louder. Problem is that most women rather believe what a man says than what a man does.

      Then teach her to have sex only because SHE wants it and for the RIGHT REASONS. Because SHE wants it is a good reason. Because HE wants it is not. Because SHE wants it because sex feels good; not because she needs to use sex in order to feel good about herself (e.g. valued). There’s a difference.

      Sex is a beautiful natural act. Tying sex to love keeps women chaste and “hoping for” love that may never be–or locked into unsatisfying relationships long after they’ve run their course, thus benefitting the patriarchy you’re trying to protect her from. You’re not helping her by telling her to tie sex to love. You’re helping sustain the patriarchy.

      Instead, empower her by teaching her the difference between the right reasons and the wrong reasons to have sex. Wanting sex and having sex does not make sex cheap. The REASONS for having sex determines whether sex is cheap or not. Sex is only cheap if a woman uses sex to get something else, whether that’s love, attention, trinkets, power, status…because then she’s bartering sex for something else and that’s what cheapens sex.

      1. 28.2.1
        Julia

        Exactly Karmic, because she WANTS it. For no other reason.Sex is not a contract, its not a bargaining chip, its an act. Sometimes its done between two people who love each other, sometimes its just done between two people who want to have sex with each other. Stop defining sex as an act of love for women and they will stop being so hurt when their bodies and minds don’t connect.

  9. 29
    Susan Walsh

    Thank you for the link, Evan! I only learned of this post via a new reader at Hooking Up Smart – not sure why I never got a pingback.  In any case, you and I are indeed kindred spirits – I’ve admired your work for a long time and share your emphasis on relentlessly filtering out guys without relationship potential early and often.
    Like you, I believe it’s better to be armed with accurate information, and there is a great deal of data on age difference in couples. Only 8% of married couples have an age difference of 8 years or more. Age difference is also linked to lower physical attractiveness – the most attractive women are 2-4 years younger than their spouses. The least attractive are 5 or more years younger.
    For more wonky stats, here’s the link to my post about women and older men:
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/09/27/relationshipstrategies/women-like-older-men/

    1. 29.1
      Peter 51

      The UK ONS published a study on age difference.   It’s quite old now.   The pdf is here.   

      http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/taxonomy/index.html?nscl=Age+at+Marriage

        I imagine that the US will show younger age of first marriage, more divorce and less diversity in partner choice but not much difference in any direction.   It does show that large age difference marraiges are more stable than the average difference of 2 years.   Also older man-younger woman are more stable than older woman-younger man;   the older the man the more stable the relationship, although even at 18 years difference older woman marriages were more stable than the two year, man older gap.

      This does not contradict what you’ve said.   It could be that people with limited choices have to be more stable.   My own case is 24 years difference but she is certainly neither ugly nor stupid.   She is a high acheiver in her late 30’s who finds it difficult to find equivalent men her age.

  10. 30
    CaliforniaGirl

    When my ex-husband and I went through a divorce and I was 35, a lot of people including him said that it will be much harder for me to find someone because I am not that young anymore and it will be much easier for him as he was only 37 ,good looking and making a lot of money . I almost believed them.. A year   later I moved in with my amazing 30 year old boyfriend who thinks I am hotter and smarter than all his 20 something female friends.   Men of all ages approach me all the time and ask out. Oh, and I just met my ex-husband with his very unattractive 28 year old girlfriend, he looked old, tired and sad…

    1. 30.1
      Wes

      All this sexual market stuff sounds like a whole lot of BS.    Nonsense really.   What I’ve learned over the years is that height, even more than being handsome matters the most   to women and it doesn’t always reflect a man’s sexual market value.   Nothing to do with age either unless we’re talking about the effects of aging on women.    Height defines a mans attractiveness   to most, if not all women as long as she maintains her good looks to pick and choose   from these men.   If a man is tall, decent looking   and his height contributes to her overall femininity, his sexual market value is high but really insignificant.   Height trumps all for most women really.   It doesn’t matter if the guy is the second or third coming of the Elephant Man or Quasimodo.   If he’s tall, that’s all that matters.
      I’m 5’5, still facially the same hot guy with a good body at 42 that I had at 21.   The difference now is that I don’t date all that much because there are too many hypocritical women.   I got tired of waiting for the hypocrites with fading looks to grow up and out of their heightist ways.      None of them offered me the love or attention when they were young and prime.   Only now they are interested in me coming with sagging body parts, advanced cellulite and heavy wrinkles.   There are plenty more women like this, slightly older and slightly younger than me who can’t use their fading looks to dictate their dating choices.   Tall hot guys don’t want them anymore yet some of these women are cradle robbing cougars.   A lot of these women come from broken relationships and some have kids attached to them.    I guess this means they have a lower sexual market value so guys like me are good enough LOL!    There are some ladies who have kept their looks and have avoided being punished by Father Time.    The attitude they still convey is one of self-entitlement, “me-first” self aggrandization feeling that her looks give her the right to choose who she wants out of the societal defined “top shelf” guys.   Women who lose their looks are forced to settle on a lesser attractive or lesser desired guy by popular vote, if they want to avoid being alone.   Now it’s my turn to be picky and choosy LOL.   Only thing is, a lot of these women don’t interest me because it’s not like they were interested in me in the first place so why should I be now?

      1. 30.1.1
        SparklingEmerald

        Wes @31 – I think now I understand why I get rejected by shorter guys.   Perhaps they are punishing me for every woman before me who rejected them.   I recently organized a meet up, and I noticed that an attractive man had signed up to go.   I was very pleased when as I was walking around the museum, someone came up behind me and said “Are you Emerald ?”   (Not my real name) I turned around, and there I was looking eye to eye literally, with a guy who was pretty much my exact height.   (I was wearing flats, I’m 5′ 3 1/2″) so he was probably 5″4 at the most.     I thought he was very attractive. Not just in the looks department, but his whole persona.   We talked and laughed a lot throughout the evening, the conversation was fun and easy, I felt like we really connected.   We went to a coffee shop and he wouldn’t let me pay for my coffee, he offered to also buy me a gellato but I declined   , and we sat and had a fun, flirty convo, that ended with him asking for my number and then   . . . Never heard from him again, but he is signed up for another meet up that I am going to.   I really was disappointed, and of course I went over the evening with a fine tooth comb, and really, I could not pin point one thing I did wrong, so I thought, “Oh well, maybe he has a girlfriend, maybe he was just practicing his approach and flirting skills, etc. ” Since he approached me, I didn’t think it was a case of him “being polite”, because it’s not like I went after him, cornered and gave him no way out.
          
           But believe me you are not the first man on this blog to express his desire to see ALL women punished for the rejection you faced.   So maybe, he was just another case of a short guy going for “revenge”.   I wasn’t “settling” for him because I’m some washed up hag (I look nice and fit for my age), I was delighted to meet him and give him my number because he is attractive, smart, artistic and enjoyed talking about rather abstract ideas that men rarely talk to or with me about.   Maybe he made assumptions that when I was younger, I was rejecting short men and emotionally tormenting them with glee.  
          
        Truth be told, I was a late bloomer.   I was the ugly duckling until about mid high school.   Boys that used to taunt me when I was that skinny bow legged girl with braces, were wowed when mother nature worked a little bit of magic, and the braces came off.   Even the bitchy mean girls started being a little nicer to me.   I did date a few guys from my HS, if they personally never taunted me, usually they went to a different Jr High so they didn’t know me during my ugly duckling days.   But I really did want to turn my back on my class and I really wanted to say “F—You” when any of the formerly mean to me girls or guys acted all friendly to me, but I really didn’t want to give them the satisfaction.   In my Sr. Year I went to school a half day and worked the other half.  
          
        I started hanging out with a local band in their mid 20’s.     I hung out with the band and their friends.   They treated ME like I was a rock star, and I lapped it up like the attention starved woman-child that I was.   I brought some of my ugly duck turned cute little duck girlfriends into this group. (I don’t think any of us were “swans” but we all turned out to be pretty cute little ducks.)    We all ended up with boyfriends from the group, my first LTR resulted from this, he was 24.   At first I thought we were “so cool” having “older men”, some of them local rock stars, some of them friends of the band.   Truth is, we were all rejects.   These 20 something rock star wanna be’s, although popular in our town, still had a   marginal “day job” because they sure as heck weren’t making a living with their “gigs”   So women their age were probably rejecting them in favor of guys with “real jobs”, and all of them seemed very eager to pluck up some teeny bopper virgin, who thought they were Greek Gods (I confess we did)   So really, what I thought was so cool at the time (especially since some of the HS girls were jealous of our “catch”) was really two sets of “rejects” filling each others needs (and probably borderline pedophelia)     My LTR was very dysFUNctional (he tried to be a total control freak with me) but it was probably the FUNNEST dysfunctional relationship I ever had.   Truth be told tho’, he was a reject in his own age group, I was just coming out of being a reject in mine, and that’s probably what brought us together.  
        I think (except for the extremely beautiful people, of which I am not) we have all been rejected and we have all rejected someone.   Maybe even rejected some one out of pure spite for what we IMAGINE their sins were in their youth towards whatever group of rejects you were in.  
        I really don’t want to punish anyone for my painful early adolescence.   I don’t take pleasure in seeing people lonely in love because they at some point rejected someone earlier in their life.
        But sometimes I DO wonder who is left for me ?   I’ll NEVER get that top tier group of uber beautiful people (not sure that I want them, they tend to be arrogant) because they think their too SMV is sooooo much higher than mine, and there are so many men in my “league” who are so bitter about their past rejections, that they want to punish all women for it.  
        As much as I am attracted to shorter attractive men, I might have to just give up with them. Not because they are short, but because they are very likely bitter and looking for a woman to take it out on.   I’m lucky now, so far the rejection has never gone further than taking my number and never calling, or one date and no repeat.   Maybe next time a short man who is still enraged over the rejection he has faced in his past will decide he really wants a pound of flesh, and will fake feelings of love for me, just so he can break my heart for revenge against every woman who has hurt him.   I really don’t want to be an emotional scape goat for anyone, at any height.
        I still remember the hurt being the 90 pound dorky girl in Jr. High, but seriously, I don’t want vengeance, I want healing.   Mutual love with a good man, perhaps another “low SMVer” would be very healing.
        But reading the bitter posts from the men who come to this blog, not to learn to understand women, but to give us all a piece of their mind, and basically tell us we deserve our lonliness, (total stranger, you don’t know our story, just pieces of it)   makes me think I should just stop trying.   Maybe EMK’s new slogan s/b “Men look for sex and get revenge, women look for love and get punished ” or “Women come to this blog to understand men;    men come to this blog to tell women that we all suck (and not in the fun way).”

      2. 30.1.2
        hydrabadchik

        What you say is confusing – are you saying that you’ve been choosing from exactly the same dating pool for over 20 years?   The very same women who rejected you in the past are the only women available to you now?
        Seems rather unusual.
          
        I’m also not understanding the comment that “a man’s height is all that matters to women but height doesn’t determine a man’s SMV”     Huh?   If height is what women want in men  – then how does it not  affect a man’s  SMV??

  11. 31
    Karmic Equation

    I think that comparing a man’s SMV with a woman’s SMV is misleading. Why? Because women can get sex any time she wants. It would be more accurate to rate women on her RELATIONSHIP Market Value (as Fusee says). And since men, presumably, can get relationships any time they want, HE should be rated on his SMV. In other words, let’s rate women on their power to obtain Relationships and let’s rate men on their power to obtain Sex, hence RMV for HER and SMV for HIM–to determine the respective gender’s MATING market value (we have to come up with a new term :))

    If we use those equivalent metrics to rate men and women’s Mating value, then the charts make more sense, right?

    Beautiful women in the 20’s can get serious (i.e., monogamous) relationships with men into their 80’s.

    Successful or charismatic men in their 30’s can get sex from women 18-80 (imagine Raquel Welch as the 80yo, fellas).

    In that case women in their 20’s have the highest Mating value for men of any age. Because most men will have a serious relationships only with women with whom they have a sexual relationship.

    Men in their 30s have the highest Mating value for women in their 20s and 30s. Because most women will only have sex with men with whom they enjoy a serious relationship.

    So for all the women here who’ve stated that they’re more attractive now than in their 20s (I include myself in this group) — our RMV is not as high as it was in our 20s, even though we’re more f*ckable now. Sorry to have to burst that bubble.

    And men in their 40’s who believe they have a high SMV value still, you may get to have sex with the occasional drunken 20yo or one on the rebound from a breakup from her jerk bf who never bought her anything…But your value to her is NOT because of your high SEXUAL market value, it’s because of your high RELATIONSHIP market value.

    The dudes in their 30’s are the ones who corner the market for babes looking for relationships, and thus getting the corresponding sex that goes along with it.

    What a downer, huh?

    However, if you look at this from a positive perspective, it’s not bad at all. It’s very aligned to reality as well as what most men and women want from each other.

    40-something men need to keep their relationship value high (have a job, be consistent, communicative, faithful, high emotional IQ is a bonus) in order to maintain a high SMV to the hottest/youngest women.

    40-something women need to keep their sexual value high (e.g., look the best they can outwardly) in order to have high RMV for the highest-RMV value men she can attract. But women do have it harder. If you’re 40 and insecure, why would a man date you rather than a 20 and insecure woman? So in addition to looking good on the outside, a 40yo woman has the responsibility to be relationship-worthy on the inside, e.g., secure, confident, kind, and nice, at a minimum. Else the high RMV value guy is going to disappear on you.

    So yes, this theory would support that women in their late 20’s better lock up the highest RMV men they meet then. Because it gets more difficult to get the relationship she wants as she ages. She gets to call the shots in her 20’s. He gets to call the shots after 30.

    1. 31.1
      Karmic Equation

      Ok. I re-read what I wrote and I seem to conflate the SMV’s and RMV’s.

      Here’s the Cliff Notes clarification of #31.

      WOMEN seek men with high RMV with whom to have sex.

      MEN seek women with high SMV with whom to have relationships.

      Because men value a woman’s SMV over her RMV, WOMEN need to have high SMV in order to have the best chance at getting into a relationship.

      Because women value a man’s RMV over his SMV, MEN need to have high RMV in order to have the best chance at getting sex from the hottest women.

      Because men and women do not put the same importance on RMV and SMV, we need to use a new gender-neutral rating system that combines the gender-specific criteria, which I’m coining as Mating Market Value (MMV):

      Male MMV = High RMV (inner attractiveness) plus reasonable SMV (outer attractiveness)

      Female MMV = High SMV (outer attractiveness) plus reasonable RMV (inner attractiveness).

      It behooves both sexes on improving the aspect/criteria that the opposite sex is seeking for the best chance at dating/mating success.

      1. 31.1.1
        tamara

        Very intelligent post, thanks for your insight. I love this blog–Evan is so smart and so are many of the commenters, I discovered it a few days ago and keep reading it at work, lol!

  12. 32
    starthrower68

    I was married and a mom at 24 so I don ‘t really know the answer to this question per firsthand experience, but are 20-something women really that creeped out by 40 something men?   I see a lot of couples where the guy is significantly older than the girl.   I could be wrong but I think the gals in their 20’s will happily date a guy in his 40’s, especially if he’s very good looking.   I think they might be creeped out if he’s pushing 50.

    1. 32.1
      opinion1

      Yes, most 20-something women don’t want to date men considerably older than them, because they have the option of dating men their own ages. Even my early-30s friends refuse to date men over 40 (though I think they should reconsider). It might not be due to creepiness as much as pure practicality. Women live about 5 years longer than men on average, so a 25 year old woman who marries a 40 year old man is signing up for a life where she has a good chance of spending her last 15-20 years widowed. The most valuable asset to everyone living in a first world country is time, not money. The 20-something guy has more time left to grow old with the 20-something woman. People looking for the loves of their lives are looking for partners to grow old together with.

  13. 33
    Peter 51

    When you are a tall woman, the pool of taller men is small.   When you are a clever woman the pool of clever men is small.    When a woman has a independent business, the pool of men with a successful independent business is small.   To say nothing of income.   Age becomes less of a discriminating factor.    When you are all lumpenstudenten together, it is a different story. Regular readers know where I am coming from.   Extreme age differences (decades) are actually more stable in marriage than the conventional 2 year difference. Presumably, when large age differences are dismissed by the parties involved other RMV factors have been seen to be important.   Having said that RMV is not SMV which is about hot bodies and conspicious status (Nobel prize say).   There is a dreadful confusion between RMV and SMV in a world where we are all strangers to each other.   If we had grown up in the same village there would be no such confusion.

  14. 34
    Jess

    Evan- this is the exact reason why women feel no choice but to lie about their age and subtract some years (especially when online dating). Even Patti Stanger did it and it helped to land her current boyfriend. I am 31 (quickly turning 32) and it’s alarming to me that men are so critical of age. We are in the age of IVF and egg freezing so that we no longer have to worry about the biological clock issue.. or at least not worry as much! So, I have been lying and say I’m 29 in my profile.. is it akward to explain this to men, yes, but I feel like men have forced us by their superficiality on age to lie! My grandmother of blessed memory lied about her age when dating my grandfather as he claimed he liked   younger women.. but when they were in love, he didn’t care! So I’m starting to think it’s better if we women lie and tell men we are younger so as to avoid being downgraded in a man’s mind! It’s better to be honest.. however, what you are saying is scaring me and I think a lot of women feel the same way.

    1. 34.1
      julia

      Jess-I was online dating from 30-32. There was never a shortage of high market men messaging. Stop lying about your age, confidence is attractive. And 32 isn’t very old.
        

  15. 35
    Jess

    One last comment: I do find it soo irritating and hypocritical that men is their 30’s- 40’s are considered at their ‘peak’ and want to date women in their 20’s, but a woman who is at that age is considered ‘declining’ in her value. In an age when men and women are both seeking fulfillment and success in their careers, wouldn’t you think mens’ and society’s opinions would change in this department and people would want to date within their Own AGE BRACKET! Women who reach 30’s and 40s who are still single are single for the same reasons that men are single in this age group.. yet whereas men are rewarded for holding out their bachelorhood , women who build up their careers and just haven’t met the right guy yet are considered not as valuable in the dating market!?? It is time this outdated notion be tossed away. It starts with women in their 20’s dating people in their own age bracket and stop dating old men!! Maybe then this whole age discrimination will go away and people will only date people their own age as it’s supposed to be!!

    1. 35.1
      Tom10

      @Jess
      “I do find it soo irritating and hypocritical that men is their 30”²s- 40”²s are considered at their ‘peak’ and want to date women in their 20”²s, but a woman who is at that age is considered ‘declining’ in her value”
        
      But who considers men in their 30s and 40s at their “peak”? Women do, as they are the ones that choose to date these men. Therefore, where is the hypocrisy? Men can’t just unilaterally declare themselves at their peak when it suits them.
        
      Conversely men often get irritated by the dating power of women in their 20s, but who gives these women that power? Men do.
        
      Therefore, although I understand your irritation ultimately I think it’s misplaced.
        
      “In an age when men and women are both seeking fulfillment and success in their careers, wouldn’t you think mens’ and society’s opinions would change in this department and people would want to date within their Own AGE BRACKET!”
        
      Non-sequitur. Men who seek a fulfilling and successful career don’t care that women seek the same. Therefore what motivation have men got to change their opinion in this department?
        
      “Women who reach 30”²s and 40s who are still single are single for the same reasons that men are single in this age group”  
        
      Not necessarily – there are many different reasons why different men and women are still single at that age. It would be unwise to assume that all other single people are single for the same reason that you are single.
        
      ”whereas men are rewarded for holding out their bachelorhood, women who build up their careers and just haven’t met the right guy yet are considered not as valuable in the dating market!??”
        
      This is because men and women value certain traits differently; therefore men and women are not rewarded equally (in dating) for building up a career. Men are only “rewarded” by women, if women decide to do so.
        
      Conversely women in their 20s are considered more far more valuable than their male peers, even though these men have been studying/working just as hard to build their lives. Does this seem fair either!??
        
      “It is time this outdated notion be tossed away. It starts with women in their 20”²s dating people in their own age bracket and stop dating old men!! Maybe then this whole age discrimination will go away”
        
      And how do you propose to control the behavior of every 20-something woman in the world? I imagine it will be quite difficult to establish some sort of demographic cartel involving hundreds of millions of women.
        
      “and people will only date people their own age as it’s supposed to be!!”
        
      But who gets to define how “it’s supposed to be”? If we are “supposed to” only date people our own age, are we therefore also “supposed to” date only within our own race? Our own class? Our own education/height/financial groupings?
        
      The thing is Jess, there is no “supposed to be” – it’s a free world out there. So each individual is entitled to choose their own prerogative when dating.
        
      “What you are saying is scaring me” (#34)
        
      I do take this point. Dating sites and blogs have to deal in general concepts, therefore this can sometimes lead to a disproportional focus on one or two specific criteria, whereas real life judgment involves collating dozens of cues and characteristics.
        
      I agree with Julia #34.1: “confidence is attractive. And 32 isn’t very old”.

  16. 36
    kelli

    men in their 40s and 50s have to seek younger women if they want  to start a family. if men haven’t had children by upper 40s/50s, they realistically cannot date someone in their own age group  in the hopes of starting a family. that is why many of them gravitate to women in their 20s and early 30s. and women have to know this – if you’re 35+ you won’t attract a guy in your age group as easily, especially if he wants a family. the solution as I see it is for women in their 30s and 40s to go 10+ years above their own age; those men will still find you young and attractive, they (likely) won’t want kids for whatever reason, they will have money and status and developed hobbies, and they will look how they look, so you can judge their appearance for what it is.

    1. 36.1
      Traveller

      @Kelli:

      THANK YOU for recognizing this. I have always wanted a family, but every woman I have been with either couldn’t have children, didn’t want them, or was over and done with that. So now, over 40, I have no choice but to try and date younger women (30s) if I want to find someone who also wants to have kids. (Actually, even that is getting difficult since lately, it has become stylish to not want children at all.)

      It’s often not a matter of men wanting someone younger; if they want a family of their own, they have no choice. (And yes, I know adoption exists, but it’s not the same thing. Neither is step-parenting.)

      Just for the record, when I was 20 I was dating a 32-year-old woman. Age differences don’t mean much if you like each other and have the same goals & attitudes.

      1. 36.1.1
        sacredfire222

        If you go to the Philippines, the overpopulation is so extreme you can easily find a young woman.   She may not be formally educated, but she will have good instincts. She will be petite, pretty and submissive to your leadership.   Please go. Be happy.

  17. 37
    julia

    So I think the lesson is that if both women and men want children they should get serious a little later. Just like a 38 woman who suddenly realizes she has little time, a man shouldn’t wait until he’s 50 to decide to start a family. Sure he might physically be able to father a child but finding a partner he can do so with will be challenging.  
      

  18. 38
    AllHeart

    There was a time when I dated older men. I was looking for a daddy-figure. I was looking for the kind of relationship that didn’t require too much of me. In my relationships with older men, the men never expect very much from me. I got away with lots of stuff. Including never, even in the course or an ongoing 6+ month relationships, sleeping with some of them. (I was not really attracted to these older guys sexually, I was attracted to feeling taken care of.) These were men who where very successful and had ivy league educations. They gave up a lot of their self-respect for my youth even though on the outside that’s not what other people saw at all. At the time, I just liked being taken to fancy places and feeling taken care of. When I was younger, I couldn’t figure out why I ultimately didn’t really feel super attracted to them. Other then the fact that they were older, I simply didn’t respect them because they were older guys dating me, a younger girl. What woman in her right mind would set her up for that kind of epic fail? What woman would commit herself to a life with a man that saw her as a depreciating value?

    Then as I got older, and more emotionally mature, I wanted to bond with men on an entirely different and deeper level. Dating men my own age required more of me as a human being, as a woman. I had to actually grow and care about the needs of someone else which made me a better partner and woman. Partnerships with men my own age had more value. We worked together as a team. I didn’t have to worry about them aging me out of my worth to them. They knew they and I, where so much more then what the world qualified us for.

    Today? I would be open to dating older men but I simply feel too bitter after a decade of seeing, reading and experiencing how men treat women based on age. Reading the comments here is enough to turn any woman off any older man. It’s one of the biggest prejudices in the world. And yes, it’s a prejudice and a a boaderline hate-filled one to tell another human being that they have less inherent value then you.

    I certainly think older men can and do have a lot of value. But the fact that men seem to believe that women hold less value then themselves has made me sad, scared and worried for the future and very hesitant to get into a relationship with an older man, even one I am attracted to. And I’m not worried that I won’t find someone. No. I’m worried about how easily men degrade women on the premise of age but use all these facts and statistics about why it’s perfectly acceptable to hold onto the idea that women are less then men.

    And that is ultimately what this debate comes down to. Take away all the fluff this is about men, in this day and age, setting a dynamic in the world that makes women less then them. And that’s got nothing to do with biology.

    As for the comment Evan made about men who are creepily attracted to young girls, that’s not a construct of men and their biology. That’s a construct of our messed up world and what men have allowed themselves to get tied up in. Because biologically, women are actually most fertile at age 26. So it doesn’t account why young girls would be the focus of lust unless something was really broken in our society.

    So there you have it. My take. I’d be open to older men. But how can I be open to men when I see so much hate, dislike, put downs about me as a woman and my age?

    And I ask this with all sincerity Guys, you want women to love and respect you. how can a woman do that if you are forever telling her she holds less worth then you do?

    1. 38.1
      sacredfire222

      I think the male desire for younger women is also because traditionally men have had a dominant and/or leadership role.    That women have pursued higher education to the degree that we find in the present is very very new in human history.   That they make their own money and can be self supporting is also very very new.   If the male picks a woman who is much younger, the dominance will be there because of the age gap.   If he goes to the third world, he has an age, education and economic advantage.   These factors create a female who is more compliant in the bedroom and kitchen and that feels traditional and comfortable to the man.

  19. 39
    Karmic Equation

    Allheart,

    I’m sorry that you sound so disillusioned. Disillusionment is very saddening.

    Have you really been the object of “so much hate, dislike, put downs about me as a woman and my age?” All the men you’ve met, male family members, male friends, male colleagues, male strangers? *Most* of them treat you so poorly?

    Or is it ALL the men you’ve dated? It can’t be ALL because you admit that in your youth men treated you like a queen and you got to call all the shots…and lost respect for them because they were doormats to you.

    I would believe that a subsection of men in your life may have treated you poorly. There is also a subsection of men in the world who are serial killers. Are all men serial killers? Another subsection that are rapists. Are all men rapists?

    You’re creating unnecessary drama with this black and white thinking and absolving yourself from your own responsibility in choosing to date those men who think about or treat you poorly. And if you believe in Karma, that whatever goes around comes around, it could be in the larger scheme of the universe your callous treatment of men in your youth has come full circle and now you face the wrong end of that karmic revenge now as you’ve aged.

    Depressing thought.

    However, the solution isn’t to further entrap yourself in that kind of depressive thinking and actions.

    Believe that you will find good men, and you will find them. You have to have faith. Do good deeds unrelated to dating, because karma isn’t always tit-for-tat. It’s an accumulation of all the good you’ve done that at some point comes to roost. Pay it forward and be as good a person you can be to all the good people in your life. Avoid the bad people.

    Eventually things work out.

    But *all* men aren’t your problem. Only some men are. Avoid them. Suss them out faster. Problem solved. Own your choices so that you can own your outcomes.

  20. 40
    AllHeart

    Karmic Equation, read this blog. Look at the things a lot of men are saying about women. Look at this posting about women’s “market value” vs men’s. Look at how casually it’s referenced that it’s boarderline okay when older men have attractions to young girls because must of them are.

    The message repeats itself. Men intrinsically have more value than women. Men intrinsically have more value than women. Men intrinsically have more value than women. This is what men appear to believe. Most men, based on this research shared here and the responses to this blog show that men enjoy throwing women away on some level while they do not want to be throw away at all.

    Women are subjected all day long to this. Through porn, through women’s magazines, through men’s magazines. The message is all the same for women, “You are a less worthy member of society as you get older. You don’t deserve a life filled with love, sex, romance after a certain age when you can no longer be a little baby-maker. Men are more worthy members of society, love, sex, romance and procreation. They can have babies until they are 60 so they should be able to bang young ladies.” It’s one of the biggest and least spoken prejudices in the world. And every single woman has been subject to it at some point in her life. Younger women and older women alike. The market value of younger women isn’t better because younger women are better. She’s just as disposable as older women. And that’s what is truly sad about the entire thing.

    Yes, there is a small subset of men who are serial killers. However, there is a large subset of men who routinely look at porn and Playboy of women half or less their own age and are running all over the internet making sure women never forget how ugly and useless they are after 30, even more so over 35. We aren’t talking about a small subset of men. We are talking about a general mentality men have adopted toward women that is reflected in how men treat women and how they are talked about.

    I’ve come to learn that while most men don’t say these things to my face in the real world, that this must be how men really feel about women, revealed online.

    I have absolved myself of no responsibility. It is totally my responsibility to find men who treat me well. Finding those men are hard to come by. That’s all. A good man is hard to find. They are needles in the haystack. I see all this misognism directed to women for aging and it just leaves me feeling a little more world weary that’s all. A little less trusting and accepting of men as they are less unaccepting of women too.

    I do believe in karma. But I don’t believe in the worldy concept of Karma where if you do 10 good deeds, you get 10 good deeds in perfect measure. I don’t think all murders go to hell and I don’t think all good little Jews and Christians go to Heaven. Karma is bigger then our earthly understanding of judgement and what we think someone else deserves.

    I might have been emotionally immature when I was younger, but so where these men! I had the grace of age on my side. What did they have as their excuse?

    On top of that, I’ve learned what it means to be a much better partner to a man. To care about his need and to be giving, kind, vulnerable and accepting of him. But does that matter? No. What matters is that as i get older, my value goes down even though I’m actually a way better partner to a man then i was when i was younger. I should be seen as an appreciating value! But I’m not. Sadly, this means men don’t value me and they clearly aren’t valuing themselves by asking women to simply be young and cute to be with them.

    I’ve grown so much more as a human being. I volunteer my time to the community, I donate money to various organizations, when my Dad got sick I was there everyday to help my Mom and him. When my brother got sick, I packed-up my bags and uprooted my entire life to be there for him. I moved to another state for him. I stop traffic to pick turtles up out of the street. I don’t even want to kill a spider. I pick up little old ladies for church. I buy random meals for homeless people and I don’t even tell my friends and families I do these things. So don’t tell me you know what kind of karma I deserve. I don’t even know the answer to that one.

    1. 40.1
      stoney

      I am new to this site so sorry for the late post.    I find this thread to pretty much be the epitome of the difference between men and women and how we think about and perceive things.  
      We are different and we value different things. Our values are based partly on gender and partly on our being a patriarchal species. Once you accept that we are different it becomes easier to be less judgemental of the opposite sex and and what we perceive as being unfair.  
      Men are generally desired by women for their ability to protect and provide. Which is why even though men in their 20s look better , men in their 30s and 40s are more desirable to women. Women are desired by men for looks and sexual attractiveness.   And its why even though women in their 30s and 40s are more of everything a man should want women in their 20s are more desirable.    It is not right or wrong for men to view women as sexual objects first. It is just how it is. It is not wrong for women to view men as providers and sugar daddy’s first. It is just how it is.   As all of the data and age ranges and charts show , in the end we usually get post our initial superficial attraction and really value who the person is and not what they look like .  
      Humans are patriarchal by nature. It is hammered into our belief system from the day we are born. From religion , our friends , and family. Men lead , women follow.   Again it’s not right or wrong. It is just how it is.  
      When all its said and done men and women want the same thing. We want to find someone or someone’s to share our lives with because that is ultimately we base our own self worth on.   We just go about accomplishing it in completely different ways.   
        

    2. 40.2
      sacredfire222

      Women’s wisdom just doesn’t seem to be valued or noticed nearly to the degree that it should be.   It seems to be all about fertility.   Why should that be such a premium desired trait in a world bursting with 7.5 billion people?    Who in their right mind (other than the Dugans maybe) would have a dozen kids in this day and age with the cost of living and the environmental degradation that is everywhere.   I too feel there is such a strong desire to unload  misdirected anger at women for things feminism did or what some other woman did without even getting to know the target of that rage or whether she deserves it.

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