Do Most Men Begin to Experience Sexual Performance Issues At 30?

I have kind of a delicate question that I can’t exactly ask the guys I date about. Now that I am 33 and am dating guys between age 30-36 I have noticed a change in their sexual performance. The last 4 guys I have dated have had issues in the bedroom and it has got me wondering if this is just what happens to guys when they hit this age? They all have one thing in common which is the first time we slept together, none of them could finish. This happened the 1st or 2nd time we slept together. Is that nerves? Then once sleeping together got more regular, I noticed the following. One guy has a hard time getting hard even if he has had 1 beer; it gets hard, goes away, and is super frustrating at the end of the night. Another guy just consistently had trouble finishing and could just go forever. None of them seemed particularly interested in morning sex either. I am left feeling bad as if I am the one being demanding. It makes me feel awkward initiating sex with them. None of them had as high of a sex drive as I seem to have which surprises me. Is this the new normal for men in their 30’s? I miss dating guys who had no problems. Thanks! 

Sue

There are multiple questions in your question, Sue.

  1. Do men in their 30’s routinely experience sexual dysfunction?
  2. Do men in their 30’s have lower sex drives than men in their 20’s?

Those questions have two different answers, so let’s take them separately:

According to WebMD, only 2% of men report erectile dysfunction before age 40, so, no, it is not common for a man to not be able to get it up in his early 30’s. 

At the same time, there are any number of reasons that a man may experience temporary erectile dysfunction, many of which have nothing to do with you. If he’s stressed with work, if he’s feeling bad about his life or his body, if he’s not healthy, if he is depressed or anxious or is taking medication for depression or anxiety…all of these could impact a man’s performance, including getting it up, keeping it up, and finishing.

There are any number of reasons that a man may experience temporary erectile dysfunction, many of which have nothing to do with you.

Which is why it’s important for you to understand this difference between men and women. If a woman is dry, she can still, technically have sex. If a man has any of the above issues, he can’t. Meaning, there is a much greater burden on a man’s performance. Factor in the fear of not being able to perform, and, well, it doesn’t surprise me if that 2% number is higher in reality.

Next, regarding your frustrations with the decreasing male libido…

Sorry, Sue. You’re shit out of luck.

Men’s testosterone peaks in their teens and early adult years and decreases about 1-2% every year after age 30. Hell, I reached my peak before I ever lost my virginity.

On the other hand, a peak in testosterone doesn’t necessarily correlate with a sexual peak. This article on How Stuff Works links to a study in which men report their own sexual peak at age 33. But, at a certain point, it doesn’t matter which study is “right.”

On the bright side, men often become more relationship-oriented over time because they’re not as driven mindlessly by testosterone.

What matters is that, yes, men’s libido decreases over time, and, apart from a few outliers, this is what happens to people as they age. On the bright side, men often become more relationship-oriented over time because they’re not as driven mindlessly by testosterone.

Life is about tradeoffs, my dear. You’ll find very few married couples in their 40’s having sex daily, but as long as they’re having it once a week, they remain happy and connected.

Your thoughts, below, are always appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Jenny

    A couple years ago, I started dating a wonderful man in his late 30s. Everything was great except something was going on with him in bed. He explained that the last couple sexual experiences he had had were a little off. He read up on pornography-induced erectile dysfunction and diagnosed this as the route of his issue. The idea behind it is that the guy gets conditioned to only coming from porn – in his case, porn on his phone where he flipped from image to image, and sex with a human is so different from that.

    Taking matters into his own hands (so to speak :), for one month he did not masturbate and he kept himself from having an orgasm if we were making out. He stopped watching porn completely. He also took up meditation – a few minutes every morning. At the end of this self-imposed ‘clean break’ from what had been his main source of stimulus we had sex and everything went very well. Since then we have had a great sex life. I was impressed with his ability to problem-solve on something so personal. He also made it very clear the issue had nothing to do with me, and I believed him. He has continued to impress me since then. 🙂

    1. 1.1
      S.

      That’s amazing.  His ability to talk about it with you and work with it and find a solution that works.  Thanks for sharing that!

    2. 1.2
      Lisa

      this is actually one of the most common causes of ED or DE for men under the age of 40.  It’s a serious issue.

  2. 2
    Tom10

    “There are any number of reasons that a man may experience temporary erectile dysfunction, many of which have nothing to do with you. If he’s stressed work, if he’s feeling bad about his life or his body, if he’s not healthy, if he is depressed or anxious or is taking medication for depression or anxiety”
     
    Right, but also:
    -Desensensitization due over-exposure to porn
    -Recreational drug-use
    -Not that bothered about sex anymore, as it’s just not as important in life as it was in his 20s; his priorities are probably shifting from sex to money/career.

    …………….

    I actually disagree with WebMD that erectile dysfunction is rare for men in their 30s; I suspect it’s actually quite ubiquitous; however, I reckon most know the root cause of the issue and could conceivably deal with it if they wanted. Most likely it’s a lifestyle choice that they just don’t really want to change.

  3. 3
    Clare

    Sue,

    If possible, get over your fear/reluctance of initiating sex. By the time you get to your 30s, there is no need to be coy about it any more if that is what you want.

    Not to say that you need to be the one to initiate it every time – not by any means – but it is a mutual dance, a give and take. There’s no need to lie there and wait for him to pounce on you and overtake you with desire – that stuff is for Mills & Boon novels. Help him along.

    Personally, I have not had these problems Sue is describing, and I also date guys in their 30s. Then again, as you get older and more mature, sexual desire starts long before you get down and dirty in the bedroom – you can build it from hours before with flirting, affection, looks, teasing, being suggestive. Personally, I feel that by the time you get to the bedroom, you should both have been thinking about it for a long time. If you try to get things going only at the point your heads hit the pillow, your success rate is going to go down.

    Have fun, Sue – flirt, tease, find your sensual inner goddess. It’ll help him a lot.

    1. 3.1
      Jeremy

      Hi Clare, I agree with your advice to the OP to get over her fear of initiation.  But regarding the advice to build desire with flirting, teasing, etc – I think this advice works for women but not for men, in general.  I’ve observed a real disconnect between men and women in this regard – with how much the build-up matters to the experience of sex.  I think that many men really don’t understand how much the buildup means to women.  And conversely, I think that many women don’t understand how little the buildup means to men.  Frankly, a day-long tease can be very frustrating.  I think that men tend to be very linear in our arousal patterns – we either are or we aren’t.  If we aren’t (and assuming there are no medical reasons for this), it is either that the sexual “on” switch can’t be activated (due to factors such as lack of attraction, porn addiction, or any other desensitizing factor), or that the sexual “off” switch won’t turn off (due to stress, incompatibility, anxiety, etc).

       

      It isn’t just age, it isn’t just diurnal hormone fluctuations, and it most likely isn’t due to lack of flirting/teasing IMHO.

  4. 4
    Robyn

    Shakespeare said it a long time ago, and he was spot-on:
    MacDuff: “What three things does drink especially provoke?”
    Porter’s response to MacDuff: “Marry, sir, nose-painting, sleep, and urine. Lechery, sir, it provokes and unprovokes. It provokes the desire, but it takes away the performance.”

    Everyone’s tolerance for alcohol diminishes with age, and part of that loss of tolerance often shows up in “taking away” of “the performance”, even for guys still in their 30’s.
    Ditto various drugs and medications.

    And if a guy is amping up on steroids for body-building, forget it!

  5. 5
    Yet Another Guy

    There is another problem that has not been addressed.  There is synchronization problem when it comes to sexual desire.  Peak testosterone for a man occurs in the morning and women tend to want sex at night when testosterone is at its lowest.  Average testosterone levels have been declining for decades.  Scientists believe that it has to do with toxins in the food supply.   There are phytoestrogens in the food supply and plastics are adding xenoestrogens.  Elevated estrogen levels impact a man’s ability to perform.

     

  6. 6
    Shaukat

    I honestly can only think of four reasons this might happen to a guy in his 30s aside from serious medical issues:

    1). Can’t perform with a condom

    2). Excessive alcohol or drug consumption

    3). Never hits the gym, very sedentary lifestyle

    4). Not that attracted to you

    1. 6.1
      Lisa

      You misssed One he’s so used to porn and his own hand that he can’t perform with an actual real woman. If a man under 30 is having ED or DE the first step is to cut out all porn and masturbation for a minimum of 30 days and I suspect the problem will resolve itself without the need for a trip to any doctor. If a woman is with a man having these issues she needs to bring up this subject early on. If he can perform solo work porn this is not a medical problem.  if he’s not willing to stop then she needs to move on.

       

      And if this is an early relationship why in God’s name is he dating a woman he’s not attracted to that makes no sense.

      1. 6.1.1
        Karl S

        Loneliness?
        Maybe they can’t meet someone they’re more attracted to.

        Back in my early twenties I’d have performance issues and I realized I was dating people who were lovely, but I wasn’t that attracted to them physically.

        Also, our sexual styles didn’t always gel so well. That can be a combination of little things like how dominant/submissive they were, as well as the way they moved their bodies or interacted with mine.

        I’ve had no issues with my current partner, who I’ve been with for years now.

        1. Lisa

          Young people today are very lonely. They don’t have the same type of social interactions that people of prior generations have.  Sure it could be mismatched partner drives or bodies.  But if a man who is otherwise healthy can perform alone with porn but can’t with a partner it could very well be porn induced.  There’s a pretty easy way to find out just do a 30 day no porn or masturbation, and if that does not solve the problem then look for other causes.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Lisa

          But if a man who is otherwise healthy can perform alone with porn but can’t with a partner it could very well be porn induced.

          It could also be emotional.

        3. Lisa

          @yet another guy, sure it could be emotional.  But often figuring out the cause of emotional ED is quite difficult.   So stopping the porn and masturbation first, to see if that helps the situation would seem to me to be the easier route. If it does not work, then pursue therapy and work on those emotinal issues.

  7. 7
    Nissa

    Oooh, I have info! So there’s good evidence to indicate that metabolic syndrome causes erectile dysfuntion. Also, older men have decreased blood volume, which can interfere with erections. Links attached.

    For non tech people, it means that guys eating the Standard American Diet (SAD) are more like to have lots of sugar in their blood, causing metabolic syndrome & interfering with erections. Many men are also very likely to be undiagnosed diabetics.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3142025/

    Why do older men have lower blood volume?

    Joseph Kraft: Why hyperinsulinemia matters

    1. 7.1
      Jeremy

      While the connection is likely to exist as a possibility, it is unlikely to be high on the differential diagnosis for men in this age category.  These men should definitely exercise and eat right, but doing so is unlikely to fix this issue for most 30-something year old men with ED.

    2. 7.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Nissa

      While low testosterone is linked to insulin resistance, researchers are still uncertain which is the chicken and which is the egg.  I am type 2 diabetic who is also hypgonadal (i.e., I am on testosterone replacement therapy), which is why I know so much about the subject.  What causes some diabetics to have trouble with erections is the over expression of an enzyme known as Rho kinase, ROCK1 to be specific.   ROCK1 keeps the penis in the contracted state.  Researchers believe that treating hypogonadism normalizes the overexpression of ROCK1.

      In older non-diabetic men, erectile dysfunction (ED) is sign of endothelial dysfunction due to arterial plaque (i.e., it is the canary in the coal mine with respect to an impending cardiac event).  This problem causes a reduction in the enzyme nitric oxide synthase (NOS) and a corresponding reduction the production of nitric oxide (NO) from L-arginine.  NO is part of the chemical pathway that allows the arteries within the penis to expand, resulting in an inrush of blood into the corpus cavernosum, which in turn pinches off the veins in the penis leading to an erection.  Phosphodiesterase 5 inhibitors (a.k.a. Viagra, Cialis, and Levitra) work by blocking the breakdown of a compound known as cyclic guanosine monophosphate (cGMP), which is produced via the NO pathway.  The compound cGMP is the actual vasodilater that allows a man to have an erection.  Because men who have arterial plaque-related ED produce low amounts of NO, blocking the action of phosphodiesterase 5 (PDE5) allows a man to achieve an erection with lower amounts of cGMP.  However, blocking PDE5 in normal healthy men can result in a condition known as priapism, resulting in tissue death. The reason being that the tissue in the penis is not being continuously oxygenated during an erection due to blood flow being pinched off.  That is the reason why an announcer always states that a man should seek immediate medical attention for an erection lasting more than four hours in the PDE5 commercials.  The half life for Viagra is 4 to 6 hours, which means that PDE5 is being blocked during this period.  A healthy man could lose a large part of his penis to tissue death if his priapism is left untreated, which is why it is dangerous to use PDE5 inhibitors recreationally.

      1. 7.2.1
        Nissa

        Interesting. Here’s a link to the brilliant Ivor Cummins cardiology talk in regard to arterial plaque being a function of insulin resistance and thus the cause of most heart attacks. This implies to me that then insulin resistance, being the cause of the plaque, is a root source for ED. The good news about this is that it is reversible with diet over time. He has several YouTube videos on these topics (link below).Oh, and buy his new book, Eat Rich Live Long.

         

      2. 7.2.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Nissa

        There are men who have ED who are not insulin resistant, so insulin resistance is not the root cause of ED. Arterial plaque is caused by endothelial dysfunction due to high blood pressure, smoking, and/or hyperlipidemia. Insulin resistance is symptom of a much larger problem. Insulin resistance is usually part of triad of comorbidities known as metabolic symdrome, which includes hyperglycemia, hyperlipidemia, and high blood pressure.  Insulin resistance is caused by having too much fat on one’s body. Fat blocks insulin from entering muscle cells.

        In men, visceral (subabdominal) fat packs a one-two punch by increasing estradiol (E2, a.k.a. estrogen) production via increased aromatase activity.  Like women need a small amount of testosterone, men need a small amount of E2. Men convert testosterone to E2 via an enzyme known as aromatase.  In men, visceral fat creates a feedback loop where it increases aromatase activity, which leads to an increase in the conversion of testosterone to E2, which leads to an increase in visceral fat.  It is a vicious cycle. This feedback loop simultaneously increases E2 while decreasing testosterone, resulting in a loss of muscle tone and mass.  It can be a downward spiral if a man does nothing about it.  Elevated E2 eventually leads to the feminization of a man’s body.  It is the source of gynecomastia (a.k.a. man boobs).

        If we want to point a finger at something, it needs to be squarely pointed at E2.  Women who have high levels of E2 also have a problem with weight gain.  What is important is to balance E2 with the other hormones. Pre-menopausal women with elevated E2 tend to put weight on in their hips and legs (pear shaped). Post-menopausal women and men with elevated E2 put on abdominal fat (apple shaped). Women who want help in balancing E2 should look at DIM or calcium d-glucarate. These compounds work for men too by helping the body to metobolize E2 into less harmful estrogen metabolites.  However, for men, the key to reducing E2 is visceral fat loss, which can be difficult after a men enters the visceral fat -> increased aromatase activity -> increased E2 -> increased visceral fat feedback loop because it is simultaneously reducing testosterone.

        The key takeaway is that weight gain in men and women as they age is more often caused by a problem with E2 dominance.  Testosterone declines in men as sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) increases, leaving reduced amounts of free testosterone.  The conversion of testosterone to E2 futher reduces free testosterone.  Testosterone and progesterone decline in women with age.  E2 dominance can cause a loss of libido in men and women as well as erection problems for men.

        1. Nissa

          Something to look at from PubMed:

          The purpose of this study is to investigate the possible underlying pathogenesis of erectile dysfunction (ED) without well-known etiology in young men under the age of 40 years.

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23681359

           

  8. 9
    Jenn

    Since the average man tends to masturbate to hardcore Internet porn on a regular basis starting in his early teens, I’m guessing it’s likely the porn habit that’s the problem. In an otherwise healthy young man, what else could it be? Yeah, okay, what Evan said are some possibilities, but if it’s happening that often that she’s complaining about it, my money is on the porn habit.

    1. 9.1
      Lisa

      Same here.

      1. 9.1.1
        Shaukat

        @Jenn and Lisa,

        Could either one of you please post or reference a study-and I mean an actual study, not some speculative editorial-that shows that exposure to hard core porn can actually lead to erectile dysfunction in healthy men in their 30s? It’s likely true that masturbation in one position can create short-term difficulties in terms of completing the sexual act in a different position, but this link you’re positing between porn consumption and erectile dysfunction has no empirical basis as far as I know, at least not in relation to young healthy men. Maybe I’m wrong though, so if you know of any study, please share.

        1. Lisa

          Sure, there are around 25 studies that provide the information that you are looking, for here,

          https://yourbrainonporn.com/studies-reported-relationships-between-porn-use-or-porn-addictionsex-addiction-and-sexual

          There is actually a lot of studies that support this. Some men can suffer just from death grip (Masturbating in a particular way), and some can suffer from just porn induced sexual dysfunction, many suffer from both.  Today’s porn provides a dopamine high that you cannot get with real sex. I had never heard of such a thing before either. If you had told me a few years back this was the case, I would have said the same thing you did, until I dated a man that suffered from this exact problem.   But empirical data or not, if a man with no health issues, is having ED or DE, he can do his own research.  Just stop, and see if the condition goes away?  The problem is that many single men have no idea that this could even cause an issue.  It’s normal right?  So when they get into a relationship and cannot perform they have no idea why.  This issue causes the end of many relationships.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Shaukat

          In the past, practitioners could point to physiological (blood flow, low testosterone) or psychogenic (performance anxiety) reasons for sexual dysfunction.  The rise of heavy Internet porn consumption is changing things. Unprecedented ED in the under age 40 crowd is real, and research is pointing to over stimulation of the brain’s reward centers.  The male brain craves novelty when it comes to sexual response, and porn gives a man access to novelty that the average woman cannot come close to replicating. Here is link to a medical publication on the NIH website that details a porn-induced ED study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5039517/

           

      2. 9.1.2
        Shaukat

        @Lisa,

        Thanks, very interesting.

  9. 10
    Elly Klein

    I concur with everyone who mentioned porn-induced erectile dysfunction as a possible cause. It’s becoming a huge problem and if I had a son, I’d warn him of it. In fact, I believe the extremely sex-positive sex therapist Dr Laura Berman, who was on Oprah many times, discourages her sons from using porn for this very reason. If a man wants to do something about it, he can research it and do a detox. I suggest starting with the Your Brain On Porn website.

    1. 10.1
      Lisa

      Yep.  EMK I think it would be great if you could touch on this issue.  Take a look at no fap.  It’s an increasingly common problem.

  10. 11
    ScottH

    Well this is an interesting topic…  I had problems finishing with my first partner after divorce, but no problems getting it up.  I still remember that time we were having dinner and she was telling me about her sex issues with her previous partners, how they finished too fast or this or that.  Hint:  don’t talk to your current partner about previous partners performance.  That caused all kinds of anxiety for me and I couldn’t finish any of the times we were together and I think she thought I was weird (I guess I am).  I was happy when things went according to plan with the next partner and I realized it wasn’t me.  Do you know how worried we guys can get about performance?  I think it’s called performance anxiety or something like that.  I also had a partner who made me wear condoms and I couldn’t finish because of those and she got really really upset which only made it worse.  (Evan wrote a column on this for me a while back.)  It also makes it hard (ha) on us if we sense that you aren’t enjoying yourself.  My batting average is very dependent on my partner.

    1. 11.1
      Emily, the original

      Scott H,

        Hint:  don’t talk to your current partner about previous partners performance

      ITA. Good, bad or indifferent. I DON’T want to know what someone did in bed with someone else. That’s a conversation that should be had with a friend, not a partner. Just like I don’t need to know which of your coworkers you are attracted to. Keep that information to yourself.

  11. 12
    S.

    If a woman is dry, she can still, technically have sex.

    First, ouch.  She technically can but if she does then she might have issues and end up writing you a similar letter several months down the line.

    If a man has any of the above issues, he can’t.

    We have to expand our definition of sex, especially if there are issues arising (or not) in the bedroom.   It’s not all about the penis going in the vagina. Sure for most that’s the main deal, but it’s not the only deal.  He has hands and a mouth, no?   I think that getting too focused on intercourse especially when it’s not happening only puts more pressure on the situation.

    The difficult thing about Sue’s situation is how to talk about it with anyone feeling pressured or blamed.  It’s no one’s fault but it’s a lot of pressure if you feel your penis is holding up sex or if you feel as a woman your partner isn’t attracted enough to you to become aroused.  Neither of those things necessarily are true, but it can certainly feel that way and it’s difficult to have that discussion.  Most men I’ve known who go through this seem like they’d rather die than talk about it. When a guy is that embarrassed or pressured I’m not sure what his partner can do to help.  You can say you’re fine and really be fine, but it’s not fine for him. 🙂

    (For those when it’s a condom thing, what do you do then and still practice safe intercourse?)

    1. 12.1
      S.

      Should have been a sad face. 🙁  It really is a difficult situation, but it’s to hear how others have worked through it.

    2. 12.2
      Emily, the original

      S.,

      We have to expand our definition of sex, especially if there are issues arising (or not) in the bedroom.   It’s not all about the penis going in the vagina.

      Yes, and we need to expand our idea of sex being “successful” if the man finishes. How many times, over the years and with various partners, have women not finished? 🙂  I’m not obsessed with having an orgasm (Because I can do it myself much more quickly or more accurately). If it never happens, that’s a problem, but if every now and then it doesn’t, the sex session can still be enjoyable. There isn’t a list of menu items that has to happen for sex to be good.

      1. 12.2.1
        Lisa

        I see what you are saying, and as a woman who was with a man who had severe porn and death grip induced DE, I tried to say that too, it does not matter if he has an orgasm, no big deal.  But I was fooling myself. I wanted a normal sex life, and to me that was what was normal.   Maybe it was because his own actions were causing the condition, which is different than a medical problem one cannot control?  We all want to please our partners, it’s a normal thing.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Lisa

          Not orgasming during intercourse becomes more frequent as a man ages, especially after age 50.   Bernie Zilbergeld’s book entitled “The New Male Sexuality” is a publication that all sexually active men and women should read.

        2. Lisa

          @yet another guy, I totally agree with you and I do think age plays a factor here.  We are not talking about men over 50.  Some level of ED is certainly expected after that, or even after 45.  But most women do not expect men in their 20s and 30s to have it, and that’s what the letter writer is speaking of.

        3. James

          “Not orgasming during intercourse becomes more frequent as a man ages, especially after age 50.”
          Not only that, but the intensity of orgasms diminishes as males get older.  So even if older males do manage to reach orgasm, the whole sensation won’t feel as good as it did when they were younger.
          And the refractory period also increases as males get older.  So even if older males do orgasm and even if they feel like it was worth the hassle, they won’t be able to do it as frequently.
          So there really isn’t a whole lot of encouraging news when it comes to the libido and sexuality of older males.  And somehow I doubt  the magical fountain of youth is to be found in some little blue pills, testosterone therapy, or marriage counseling.  Both men AND women would probably be much better off just making their peace with this instead of trying to fight it.

        4. Lisa

          @james I totally agree with you and as a woman I would expect a man in that age range to have some problems. Sex is just different as we age.  That being said it’s one of the reasons I date men my age, rather than older men.  I think when I am 50 I won’t care as much about these issues, but in my 30s I don’t desire nor do I expect these issues with the men I date.  I think most women know what you state to be true it’s the men that won’t admit it. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard 50 year old men say oh yes I can have sex like a 30 year old that’s why I date younger women. But they can’t nor should they be expected to.  But in their 30s, no.

        5. Emily, the original

          Lisa,

          as a woman who was with a man who had severe porn and death grip induced DE, I tried to say that too, it does not matter if he has an orgasm, no big deal.  But I was fooling myself. I wanted a normal sex life, and to me that was what was normal.  

          I just don’t like when sex is seen as goal-based. Masturbation is goal-based, but sex should be a lot more fun and spontaneous. Sometimes it’s fun just to fool around.

      2. 12.2.2
        Lisa

        @emilytheoriginal yes it’s nice sometimes to just fool around and no an orgasm is not necessary always. What I’m speaking of is being in a relationship with a man who will never be able to orgasm from vaginal intercourse and/or can only orgasm from his own hand in your presence.  As a young person I’m just not willing to accept a sex life that consists of that. At age 60 sure maybe but in my 30s no. Something many don’t realize until they are with a man with delayed ejaculation how little intimacy is felt when there is no intercourse or your sex life consists of watching him masturbate. I don’t knock people for being fine with that that’s their choice. But I don’t think it’s the majority view.

        1. Emily, the original

          Lisa,

          What I’m speaking of is being in a relationship with a man who will never be able to orgasm from vaginal intercourse and/or can only orgasm from his own hand in your presence. .. As a young person I’m just not willing to accept a sex life that consists of that. At age 60 sure maybe but in my 30s no

          I’m in my 40s, and I wouldn’t like that. I actually had a guy–the FIRST TIME we were together–ask me if watching him “pleasure himself” would relax me because I was nervous.  Uh … NO!  

    3. 12.3
      Lisa

      Right I have personally found that there is NO good way other than to ignore the problem, that you can broach this subject without offending a man.   If it happens a few times, okay its nerves I ignore it no problem.  But if it happens over and over you have to address it.   Women, just like men want to be sexually satisfied in their relationship s and there is nothing wrong or superficial about that.     If your man is unable to perform, and you are not okay with that, I would not marry him.

    4. 12.4
      Lisa

      @Emily the original, agreed.   Not many women would be.

  12. 13
    D_M

    The scenario just seems a little off. All four guys had trouble climbing the mountain. One guy had a wet noodle problem, so that is understandable. For two of them, we are left wondering where they fell on her spectrum. The fourth guy was the man of steel, but somehow was unable to fulfill an insatiable appetite. None of them wanted any in the morning. That just doesn’t compute. If your drive is high, wouldn’t the man of steel be exactly what is needed. It’s like me saying, I want it all the time, but the whoo-ha is too wet.

    Many moons ago, I had an encouter with a very passionate kisser. Based on the kissing, I  expected a proper sweat down, none was to be had. Chica was completely passive between the sheets, which resulted in a ho-hum experience. Men have expectations as well, so it might be possible that the evening prelude, has set the stage for the morning. Men seldom tell women that their bedroom game needs work. From the cougar’s playbook, your weaker hand should be juggling, while the more dominant hand grabs a firm hold of the one eyed monster.

    1. 13.1
      Lisa

      The man of steel thing is a common misconception on the part of men.  I think it may be something that porn teaches them, but not sure.  Very few women want sex that lasts for 30 minutes or more, it’s painful and boring.  Studies show women prefer around 10-15 minutes of actual penetration.  Being with a man who never orgasms is horrible, it kills the woman’s self esteem and makes her not want to have sex with him.

      1. 13.1.1
        D_M

        Lisa,

        How would you purpose that we deal with the self esteem issue? I’ll concede the ubiquitous nature of porn at this point in history. What would be your prescription for the sexes moving forward?

        1. Lisa

          In my opinion put down the porn and get out there and start interacting with real woman, that’s the only way to build self esteem.  And tell yourself that porn is a fantasy not reflective of real life, or anywhere close to what women want in bed.

      2. 13.1.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Lisa

        Being with a man who never orgasms is horrible, it kills the woman’s self esteem and makes her not want to have sex with him.

        I have news for you, Lisa–men feel the same way! If a man is not orgasming through intercourse, you need to try something different.  I do not know your age, but I find orgasming through intercourse to be hit or miss these days, often taking thirty minutes or longer.  Thankfully, I do experience difficulty achieving an erection, it is just that penile sensitivity and the tone of the pubococcygeus muscles of the female pelvic floor both decline with age.   People need to become more open minded and creative in bed as they age; otherwise, they will be hanging up their spurs. 🙂

        1. Lisa

          Oh no, I left that relationship.  But thanks for the advice.  Just so you know I did try absolutely any and everything and it did not work.  You know what did work, stopping porn, and masturbation.   I am 40, but at the time I was in my mid 30s and I am sorry I am not looking to deal with ED at such a young age.    Particuarly when the man is causing his own ED and won’t stop.   I think you are comparing apples to oranges.  Mine was a situation where the man was not of an age where he should be having ED, and it was definitive that the cause of his ED was porn use and excessive masturbation.  Totally different than a man of a certain age struggling in bed through no fault of his own, just the aging process.

    2. 13.2
      Emily, the original

      D-M,

      Chica was completely passive between the sheets, which resulted in a ho-hum experience.

      When I’ve fallen into the passive role, it’s usually because something is off and I want the whole thing to move along. 

      1. 13.2.1
        D_M

        Emily, the original,

        I subscribe to the none is better than some philosophy in the bedroom. If someone isn’t into it, I stop. Appeasement doesn’t work for me. For the most part, the whoo-ha signals when she is ready in women that haven’t reached the “stage” in her life. Absent the explicit phone call from the whoo-ha, I stay away from the front door. I give you time to warm up. If you don’t have another gear besides what’s on display, the session is over. Sometimes two people are simply not a good fit. Additional bedroom accoutrements still don’t close the incompatibility gap.

        1. Nissa

          I love that you call sexual aids “accutrements”. Makes it more French, lol.

        2. Emily, the original

          D_M,

          I subscribe to the none is better than some philosophy in the bedroom. If someone isn’t into it, I stop. Did you stop with the woman you mentioned? Did you say, “‘Hey, it seems like you aren’t into this. Let’s call it a day.’?” I’ve never done that before, but I’ve wished I had the balls to do it a few times. As you wrote, sometimes you aren’t a good fit, and there’s no point in dragging it out once you’ve figured that out. I can’t imagine how awkward it would be or, frankly, how it could be taken very badly by either party. 

          For the most part, the whoo-ha signals when she is ready in women that haven’t reached the “stage” in her life. Not necessarily. I’ve been sufficiently ready for encounters that, up to that point of liftoff, had proven to be ho-hum. 

           

  13. 14
    Gala

    I have noticed the same thing,  *white collar* men in their 30ies generally make the worst lovers. The solution is to either date younger guys, older guys (40ies) even though it may be counter-intuitive, or date non-career guys. Surfing instructors don’t have a problem getting it up, assuming they are not stoned. I believe it all boils down to stress. As a professional woman myself in my 30ies, i get it completely. This is the decade of your life that is gonna make or break your career. Are you gonna be on a partner/C-level/PM track or whatever, or washed up when you hit 40? The stress of it is **intense**. The competition is fierce. The guys in their forties already know the answer. Either way they are more chill about stuff, they even make peace with being washed up and move on with their lives. The guys in their 20ies don’t know what’s ahead of them yet. They still think the world is their oyster because they got a cool entry level job (ha!). And lastly, the non-career guys are not involved in the rat race in general so they are chill.

    Oh, and the guy who couldn’t finish forever was probably watching too much porn and mastrubating to it. I’d give him a chance as with regular sex this will go away fast.

    1. 14.1
      S.

      washed up when you hit 40?

      I wouldn’t think of it as washed up, gosh.  I’m thinking about myself and not the men.  But you and I differ because I don’t care about a man’s career and never did in any decade of my life.  I’ve worked since I was fifteen but my work life hasn’t been a straight line.  As long as the man as happy with what he does and who he is, I’m fine with it. (And that what he does is legal, lol.)

      I wish and hoped that a man’s job or career wasn’t a beeline to his sex life.  My sex life has ZERO to do with my job, except sometimes at different points in my cycle I think too much about sex at work! Ha!

      But I realize we social men differently and they have that provider instinct which in our culture means job which affects sex.  That said, I’ve had really good sex with some very shy, beta males with low self-esteem.  Being desired helps. 🙂 It’s not everything and alone can’t change anyone but it helps.  And usually they start back dating just when their careers are back on track but not exactly when they are ‘crushing it’ yet in the workplace.  And I have a pretty wide definition of what ‘sex’ is.

      1. 14.1.1
        Gala

        I am not sure how what you said relates to what i said. My point is, for career men (and women) their 30ies is the most stressful decade. This stress affects men’s performance. This has nothing to do with how we socialize boys. Stressed out men physiologically don’t get it up regardless of what the source of stress is.  (the “betas” actually perform better in the sack at that point because they are less stressed)

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Gala

          I routinely worked in excess of 80 hours a week in a very stressful position as in my 30s, and I do not have problem with performance.  The problem with guys in the thirties has to do more with eating a trash diet, consuming too much alcohol, and lack of physical exercise than it does with worrying about making partner.

        2. Jeremy

          YAG, I agree with you that it isn’t about the stress of making partner.  While many women view stress as a reason not to have sex, most men IME view sex as a way to blow off stress.  But that type of sex that blows off stress is the type that prioritizes the man’s desires, not the woman’s.  If he has to prioritize her desires it increases his stress.  Think about motivations.  If you Google “what makes a man a good lover” you’ll come up with hundreds of pages.  But if you Google “WHY should a man be a good lover” you’ll come up with zilch (or rather, the same articles that explain HOW he can be a good lover).  What is his motivation?

        3. Gala

          @YAG:

          I routinely worked in excess of 80 hours a week in a very stressful position as in my 30s, and I do not have problem with performance.

          Yes, we know you’re a super human. We got that. Btw, I thought you said you spent 10 years in a sexless marriage, how would you know if you had problems with performance?

        4. S.

          My point was I couldn’t relate to the work stress affecting sex.  Work and sex are separate for me.  So I couldn’t see why it would be that way for men.

          I do know that men have a need to provide. Part of it is biological and part of it is that a man’s job is part of his self-worth in a way, well, mine is not.  That’s how we socialize boys. Little boys may have a instinct to protect, but since they can’t grow to fight tigers off anymore that translates to how he can protect and provide for his family. So maybe if they aren’t doing well at work and that affects their self-worth that could affect their sex life? It’s a reach of me trying to understand this stress leading to performance problems issue.

          Betas are stressed because well, they aren’t always treated kindly.  It’s not exactly the ‘ideal man’ (if that even exists) to be quiet and reticent.  So they are stressed but about different things. Or maybe the same things. One ex of mine was always so calm.  He eventually told me, “I only seem calm.”  Fair enough. 🙂 They can be shyer about crossing the touch barrier and getting into a relationship.  But once there, wow!  Still waters run deep. 😀

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Gala

          I thought you said you spent 10 years in a sexless marriage, how would you know if you had problems with performance?

          I was in my mid-forties to mid-fifties during that period. I did not have erectile performance problems.  I had a willing partner and desire not to cheat problems. 🙂

        6. KK

          YAG,

          “I was in my mid-forties to mid-fifties during that period. I did not have erectile performance problems.  I had a willing partner and desire not to cheat problems. 🙂”

          So, the reason your marriage was sexless was because you had a willing partner and a desire not to cheat? What are we missing?

          Does this mean you were the one who didn’t want to have sex with your willing partner?

        7. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          So, the reason your marriage was sexless was because you had a willing partner and a desire not to cheat? What are we missing?

          That was a grammatical error. I had neither a willing partner nor the desire to cheat.

          Looking back, I should have left my ex years before I made the move. I remained in my marriage because I believed that it was better for my children to grow up in an intact family. No woman will ever have that much leverage on me, and that is a very liberating feeling. I have no desire to be tied to one women for a reason. I have seen how bad it can get when things are not right. Men in good marriages may live longer than single men, but men in bad marriages tend to have shorter lives than men who never marry.  At this point, I see absolutely no advantage to committing to one woman, and quite honestly, I encounter quite a few women who do not want to be tied to a man. They live full lives.  The disconnect that I have with these women is that they want a monogamous sex partner, and I have no desire to be monogamous to one woman.  I have learned that that practice does not pay.  A little competition anxiety goes a long way towards maintaining sexual tension.

        8. KK

          “No woman will ever have that much leverage on me, and that is a very liberating feeling. I have no desire to be tied to one women for a reason. I have seen how bad it can get when things are not right”.

          YAG,

          When you make statements like this, women are relieved that you’ve essentially taken yourself off the market.

          But the reason you feel this way is because you haven’t been divorced that long. Just like when you first started commenting here as someone who was newly separated, and you were frustrated that women weren’t giving you a chance… months later, you understood it. You even complimented the women who didn’t respond to your advances back then. Is it possible you could change your mind yet again, after more time has passed?

          Take it or leave it, but my suggestion is to stay away from dating for awhile and focus on yourself. Find a good therapist that will help you unpack the real reasons your marriage didn’t work out. You might discover that your marriage was doomed from the beginning because of the beliefs you brought into it and the beliefs you had about what kind of partner you needed. I’m not suggesting that you’re 100% at fault for the demise of your marriage… not at all. But you might be surprised to discover the feeling of freedom you’ll have from really understanding why you made certain choices and how those choices affected you.

          Then, you can go back to dating with a real sense of who you are and what you need, and if you still come to the conclusion you’ll never remarry, so be it.

          But as it stands right now, the most amazing woman could cross your path and you’d either miss out on her or completely screw it up.

      2. 14.1.2
        Amaryllis

        I am aware that a sedentary lifestyle, exhaustion and work-related stress may affect libido and performance but the reality of the long dry spells hurt. How do I bring up detoxing gently and nicely?

    2. 14.2
      Jeremy

      I find this topic so interesting to think about.  Because, after all, the way that most women define a “good lover” is by how much pleasure he gives HER, not himself.  So what is his motivation to be a good lover?  It certainly isn’t his own pleasure.  It might be validation, but only if the woman is hotter than he is or if he is conditioned to predicate his value on the opinion of a woman.  It might be an ego thing – about overcoming obstacles – which is a circuitous route to validation.  Or he might just genuinely be a giving person, more concerned with the well-being of his partner than his own.  But regardless, the “good male lover’s motivation to be a good lover is not his own pleasure.

       

      I only bring this up to muse about your comment about 30-something year old white collar men being good lovers in your experience.  I understand a man in his 40s dating a younger woman wanting to be a good lover to her so as to keep her – his motivation is to keep her.  I understand a younger man in his 20s trying to prove himself and develop his skills.  But a high-earning man in his 30s who is in high demand from a female population who is starting to want marriage and children with a man exactly like him….what is his motivation to be a good lover or to do anything he doesn’t have to?  Unless he is a genuinely giving man…..the sort of which is unlikely to be the type to climb a corporate ladder?

      1. 14.2.1
        Gala

        what is his motivation to be a good lover or to do anything he doesn’t have to

        His motivation to be a good lover is getting women, of course. A guy who is bad in bed will be a one and done guy, no repeat customers. He will have women ghost him after the first encounter. He then needs to go and find another woman who doesn’t yet know that he sucks, and do it over, and over, and over again and presumably he will have to go out with these women first and $$ for dates. Whereas a guy who is actually good in bed will have a phone full of women he can text to netflix and chill when he feels like it.

        Also, a career guy in his 30-ies does not yet command the power you suggest that he does. He gets to work 100 hours a week while the there are real fat cats in their 40-ies,  still with the head full of hair and a ton of $$ to through around on women. Those guys have options, the guy in his 30-ies just hopes to be one of them one day. Some will, most won’t.

        This is why it is best for a guy to get married in his late 20-ies, or around 30, so that he has a (sort of) reliable source of sex and the support system to go sly the dragons, without worrying where his next orgasm is coming from.

        1. Jeremy

          His motivation to be a good lover is getting women, of course.”  I disagree.  Such a man has no problems getting a woman, regardless of his sexual performance.  There are no shortage of women whose sexual meta-goal is marriage and children rather than pleasure and orgasms.  Being rich and powerful is far more of a draw to women for sex than being good in bed.  You mentioned that the man you’re currently with is more technically skilled/giving than the guy you were with in the past to whom you were more attracted.  The first guy drew you without even trying.  The second guy has to put in all this effort.  Who would have more options?

        2. Gala

          There are no shortage of women whose sexual meta-goal is marriage and children rather than pleasure and orgasms

          While most women I know what to have marriage and children, not a single one is desperate enough to marry a guy with ED (which would sort of make the kids part hard, no pun intended)

          The first guy drew you without even trying. 

          Oh no, he tried hard, believe me. He just tried in a different way. The amount of money he spent on me over the course of our 1.5 year long relationship was probably 3x the current guy’s annual pre-tax income. So yes, a guy who can fly you to a private island for a second date doesn’t necessarily need to be a casanova reincarnate, but how many guys can do that? Others have to compete on pure merit 🙂

        3. Jeremy

          Oh no, he tried hard, believe me. He just tried in a different way.”  But that’s just it.  A woman who wants to draw men doesn’t take a course in being good at sex, she hits the gym or gets plastic surgery.  A man who wants to draw women doesn’t take a course in sex, he gets a better job (or maybe hits the gym, depending on the type of relationship he wants).  How many men have commented on this blog that in their experience, the hottest women were the worst in bed? What would their motivation be to put in more effort?  They are hot – they already have their pick – and being better in bed won’t increase their options meaningfully.  Successful men have the same issue.  What is their motivation.  And this is something to demonstrate what it sounds like you’ve already observed – that men who have more motivation to want you and only you have more motivation to please you than men who have their pick.  The same is true of women.

           

        4. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,
          How many men have commented on this blog that in their experience, the hottest women were the worst in bed? What would their motivation be to put in more effort?  They are hot – they already have their pick – and being better in bed won’t increase their options meaningfully. 
          Ego can be a big motivating factor. It’s pretty cool to have someone rank you as rocking his world, if that is a motivating factor for any particular woman.
          Successful men have the same issue.  What is their motivation.  And this is something to demonstrate what it sounds like you’ve already observed – that men who have more motivation to want you and only you have more motivation to please you than men who have their pick.  The same is true of women.
           This is an extremely depressing statement. It makes sense, of course, but it’s saying that the men who hone in on one woman are the ones who are less appealing and have fewer options.

        5. Jeremy

          This is an extremely depressing statement. It makes sense, of course, but it’s saying that the men who hone in on one woman are the ones who are less appealing and have fewer options.”  But that isn’t necessarily what it means, Emily, though I know you are worried specifically about this issue.  I honed in one one woman because I wanted to be married and the woman I chose had by far the best mix of qualities I was looking for.  My motivation to hone in on her was that she was what I was looking for.  My decision to prioritize her is because I value my relationship with her beyond any sort of temporary fling.

           

          I wrote above that motivation to please a woman could be for validation, could be for ego, or could be a man who genuinely cares about the woman in question.  You only need to worry about the motivation when the guy doesn’t care about you and doesn’t value more than any of his other options.

        6. Gala

          A man who wants to draw women doesn’t take a course in sex, he gets a better job (or maybe hits the gym, depending on the type of relationship he wants)

          Ummm… no. Just no. First, there’s getting a woman and then there’s getting the woman to come back, ok? These are two completely different objectives. Allow me to illustrate: when i was in grad school i hooked up with a guy who had the body of a Greek god. Not only was he in the prestigious graduate program, but he also hit the gym, so by your description he should have been golden. But he went soft within 5 minutes and I confidently rank him as one of the worst lovers i ever had. Talk about a major letdown. I told one of my girlfriends, who said she had the same exact experience with this guy. Obviously, the word spread as a wildfire, not only did he not get either one of us to hook up with him again, i think he had to go off campus to look for dates.

          Even outside of the enclosed campus environment this still holds. A guy who is really bad in bed will struggle to keep a woman – whether  he wants hookups or  a real relationship. Even more so for casual hookups since having good sex is the actual goal in that case and he’s got nothing. So, to sum up, it benefits the guy to be a good lover because if he is, women will be more willing to hook up with him again and again, making life easier for him. We all know the type – a guy who has phone numbers of 50 women who he can text at random “wanna hang out” on any Tuesday night and get at least one of them to hook up with him. This is the guy who is good in bed. He doesn’t have to be the master of the universe or anything, he just needs to have some game to drum up the initial attraction and then deliver in the sack. Ok? And this is a lot easier to achieve versus making seven figures. In fact, this type of guy is so common place in the dating market today that I am kinda surprised I have to explain it. Must be a generational thing and also the fact that you’ve been out of the market for a while.

           

           

        7. Gala

          @Jeremy:

          Such a man has no problems getting a woman, regardless of his sexual performance.

          To understand the benefit to a man of being a good lover, you should think about it like a business with high customer acquisition cost. If you’re spending a lot (of time and money) to attract a customer (a woman), you better make sure they’re satisfied with the service (sex) and want to bring you more business (come back for more). Otherwise, if the product is shitty, no matter how good the marketing campaign looked (your status or biceps), they’re not gonna generate repeat sales for you. At best, they will stick around until the end of the promotional period (you taking them out to a couple of nice restaurants) and then bail.  Any finance savvy person will tell you that’s just a horrible business model. 🙂

        8. Jeremy

          Gala, you business analogy assumes that the product the man is selling, the thing that the consumer (the woman) desires is sex.  Which may well be so in the hook-up market, but not so (or at least far less so) in the relationship market.  I’m not talking about extremes like a guy who is unable to maintain an erection for over 5 minutes.  I’m talking about a guy who prioritizes his own enjoyment in bed versus a guy who prioritizes the enjoyment of his partner.

           

          The reason I bring this up isn’t to argue with you over the merits of being good in bed, but rather to think about motivations.  If a man’s motivation is to please his partner (rather than please himself), why might that be so?  Is it so he can attract more women in a hook-up environment?  Is it because he believes his partner will be happier and more likely to stay with him if he pleases her (ie. security)?  Is it because he derives validation from giving her orgasms, as pertaining to his own ego/ability to achieve?  Is it because he loves her and is a genuinely giving person?  The only reason to wonder about this is to think about whether it is likely to continue to remain a priority as the relationship matures over time.

           

          As pertaining to the OP, my suspicion is that porn use may be contributing to the problem.  And the reason that porn use is so ubiquitous among men is that it allows men to focus on their own pleasure without the anxiety of being judged on their performance or the need to jump through hoops to get what they want.  A man accustomed to having his needs met without effort or empathy might not just be unable to satisfy a woman sexually, he may wonder why he should even try.

        9. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          I honed in one one woman because I wanted to be married and the woman I chose had by far the best mix of qualities I was looking for.

          Yes, I understand that, but by your own admission (and this is not a criticism) you lived at home as you were going to school, (I think) saved up, planned your future. You were always pretty serious. Didn’t have a slut phase. You weren’t the type of man who was picking up tons of women. Mr. Charisma has tons of options and even if he settles down at some point because he wants a family, is he not tempted by all the other women who still find him appealing? I mean, don’t some men just ooze sex (as I’m sure some women do)?

        10. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          Mr. Charisma has tons of options and even if he settles down at some point because he wants a family, is he not tempted by all the other women who still find him appealing?

          First off, Jeremy is 100% correct with his assertion that a woman’s sexual ability is usually inversely proportional to her attractiveness level.  In shape, very attractive women do not have to learn how to be good lovers. They can get by on their looks alone. Now, fat-bottom girls are a completely different story.  There is a reason why guys are willing to date down in SMV for sex.  The larger the difference in SMV, the harder a woman will try in bed and the less often a man will hear the word “no” to a desired sex act.

          Now, to answer your question about Mr. Charisma, I cannot vouch for other men, but I was a man-slut before I married (it was always a source of friction with my ex).  I had absolutely no problem hooking up long before hooking up was fashionable and when women almost universally mounted anti-slut defense before having casual sex, which is a big part of why I did not marry until the second half of my thirties.  Heck, I hooked up with a woman that I met on jury duty of all places. Yet, I remained faithful to my ex even though we went through a long sexless period. Why? The answer for me was my children.  I may be a man of questionable character.  I am absolutely certain that they are women in my past who would refer to me as a cad or player, but what kind of message would it send to my daughters if they learned that their father cheated on their mother?  It would send a message that it is okay for a man to cheat. Often, there are bigger, more important things in a man’s life than getting laid. I am certain that there are other men who can justify not giving into their urges for the same reason.

        11. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Now, to answer your question about Mr. Charisma, I cannot vouch for other men, but I was a man-slut before I married (it was always a source of friction with my ex).  I had absolutely no problem hooking up long before hooking up was fashionable

          I’m not talking about hooking up a lot. I’m talking about being a man who walks in a room and attracts the attention of most the women. I can’t relate it to anything but movie stars since we don’t know each other and don’t have shared acquaintances, but I went to a movie months ago and Richard Gere (EVEN IN HIS OLD AGE — can you imagine an older woman having that kind of power?) appeared in a preview, and there was a palpable energy in the mostly female audience. He woke the women up. I’m talking about being with married to a man like that … 

      2. 14.2.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Gala

        His motivation to be a good lover is getting women, of course. A guy who is bad in bed will be a one and done guy, no repeat customers. He will have women ghost him after the first encounter.

        A man does not need to be a good lover to get women. He needs to reasonably attractive and have good game. Guys my age were not interested in “repeat customers.”  We practiced sex as a sport. We were in it for the thrill of the chase. Sex with a new woman is thrilling.  Undressing a woman for the first time was like opening a present on Christmas.  We moved on after we conquered a woman. Many older women experienced this kind of high speed pass when they were younger.

        1. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          His motivation to be a good lover is getting women, 

          Please keep in mind a man is only as good as the last woman he had sex with says he was. Meaning: Some women will think he is fantastic. Others will think he is mediocre. Others will think he is terrible. Sexual taste is extremely individualistic. It’s not possible to be all things to all women. 

      3. 14.2.3
        Emily, the original

        Jeremy,

        I find this topic so interesting to think about.  Because, after all, the way that most women define a “good lover” is by how much pleasure he gives HER, not himself.  So what is his motivation to be a good lover?  It certainly isn’t his own pleasure. It might be validation, but only if the woman is hotter than he is or if he is conditioned to predicate his value on the opinion of a woman.

        Uh … isn’t that, to some extent, every man? I haven’t been with someone who isn’t, at the very least, subtly waiting for some feedback/that-a-boys/appreciation/acknowledgment of his performance. I think both sexes want that. 

         

  14. 15
    Yet Another Guy

    I would like to propose a completely out of left field explanation.   The combination of hookup culture combined with the over consumption of porn by men and women has lot of men anxious in the bedroom.  Let’s face it, obtaining an erection in man’s twenties is almost autonomic (it definitely is in man’s teens). The thirties are were being sexually excited starts to factor into the erection equation.  It used to be that average man was lucky to have a female count (F-count) of five by the time that he reached age thirty; therefore, sex with a new women was still a novelty and exciting.  Now, a lot of men lose count of the number of women with whom they have hooked up by age thirty.   It is no secret that guys are horribly visual. It is really difficult to get excited about being with a new woman after a man has been with a lot of women, and men do not experience that emotional hit that creates the mind blowing sex effect that women enjoy.  Now, combine lower mental stimulation with the performance pressure that comes from watching too much porn and we have a recipe for disaster.  Just as women are sensitive to their bodies, men are sensitive to their size and sexual prowess.  Fifty-six percent of men cannot pass the dollar bill test (a dollar bill is six inches long) and ninety-one percent of men are shorter than seven inches, yet men with penis sizes in the six to seven inch range still believe that they have smaller than average size penises.  That is because they watch too much porn and porn stars tend to have “OMG, get that thing away from me” size penises.  🙂

    1. 15.1
      Lisa

      Yep this is exactly it.

  15. 16
    Nissa

    What bothers me about this is that it seems like this evaluation of ‘men’s performance’ is so divorced from the men to whom the penis is attached. What about loving the man behind the penis?

    For me, sex is not just about the physical act. Yes, the act is lovely, especially with a partner who you’ve had before and you know each other’s preferences. To me, sex is about loving the man in front of me. A lot of that is physical, but there’s also appreciation of HIM, and all the qualities of him – including non physical qualities like aggressiveness, boldness, playfulness, verbosity, creativity. It’s about drinking him in with my eyes, my hands, my mouth; about being the receiver of his desire. It’s about my enjoying his body and enjoying his pleasure. None of that is predicated on an orgasm on either side, although that of course is nice. I just find that the act of loving is pleasurable, and making one part of that greater whole, into the entire thing, feels off to me.

    The other thing that strikes me about the OP’s letter is that it seems that the men in question are fine with it. This would make sense if it was a one time thing, but the letter makes it sound as if it is the norm, rather than an exception. I’m surprised that these men were willing to continue trying if the efforts were so dismal in their opinions. Perhaps their goals were not the same, although in non committed relationships I would expect the major goals to be more physical in nature than on connectivity.

    1. 16.1
      Buck25

      Nissa,

      Beautifully stated in 16, I think; at least that’s the way we used to think of it (within the context of a committed relationship or marriage, anyway). I wonder if that holds true as much today, at least with some of the younger set. From some of what I read here, I’m not so sure, but perhaps, the nature of some of the dialogue here, coupled with the past experiences of some contributors plays a part in that emphasis. I don’t know; the older I get, the less sure I am of so many things…

    2. 16.2
      S.

      It’s about drinking him in with my eyes, my hands, my mouth; about being the receiver of his desire. It’s about my enjoying his body and enjoying his pleasure. None of that is predicated on an orgasm on either side, although that of course is nice.

      Exactly!

      I’m surprised that these men were willing to continue trying if the efforts were so dismal in their opinions.

      It’s unclear if the OP talked to these men about this topic? She seems to be cataloguing her experience for herself, but maybe they were fine and well, she just moved on to the next and didn’t tell them? Her first line does say, “I can’t exactly ask them about” so it’s difficult to know how the men feel about it.

      Also, now rereading, maybe she could have told that one guy to have the one beer after sex.  She noticed a pattern with him that seemed clear enough.

      Hope she’s reading and will tell us. 🙂

       

    3. 16.3
      Emily, the original

      Nissa,

      For me, sex is not just about the physical act. Yes, the act is lovely, especially with a partner who you’ve had before and you know each other’s preferences. … I just find that the act of loving is pleasurable, and making one part of that greater whole, into the entire thing, feels off to me.

      You make it sound like there’s depth to the sexual act beyond ego gratification and entertainment?  🙂

      1. 16.3.1
        Buck25

        “You make it sound like there’s depth to the sexual act beyond ego gratification and entertainment? “

        Emily,

        I used to think that was rather a primary point of the exercise. After reading some comments I’ve read at various times on this site, I am led to wonder if that’s quite the case anymore, with some of the younger set of women (I’ve always known that was a bit of an outlier attitude among men, at least, insofar as many of them will openly admit).

        semi, in a post below, makes some comments about post menopausal women I’d like to echo here. The more my dating pool has come to be overwhelmingly made up of peri-menopausal/post-menopausal women, the more I’ve come to appreciate those of them still sexually active as partners. On balance their approach to intimacy and sex is more relaxed, and more relaxing from a male POV. I’ve never experienced any sort of “performance anxiety” with any of those women, much less ED issues. They’re able to enjoy holding, touching and caring in a way that too many younger women too often don’t. Maybe they’re simply wiser, maybe they don’t feel so much need to prove something to themselves or to their partner. They don’t seem to struggle or try too hard to have the big O; less pressure for them, and less on me. In spite of that, many of them seem to enjoy easier, better quality and more frequent orgasms than many of their younger counterparts. The active ones still appear to have a healthy libido (most can keeps with me, and I’m a several-times-a-week man), and the worst problem most seem to have is some dryness issues, easily remedied with supplemental lubricant applied as part of advanced foreplay. In essence sex with them is by and large easy, relaxed, low-pressure, and frankly more emotionally satisfying, if a bit less frantic. With some slightly younger women (mostly forty-somethings, as I’ve had next to no experience with any younger age group this time around), I’ve had the feeling they were almost keeping a mental scorecard-I didn’t know sex was supposed to be an Olympic event, for chrissakes! In that situation, it takes one hell of a confident man NOT to feel some pressure. It’s like she’s evaluating, “Did he make me come? How easily? How fast? How many times? Were they just so-so, or the real toe-curling, completely zoned-out variety? Oh, and how hard did he come (when I was ready for him to, of course)?Etc. etc. etc.” I guess times have changed, cause I don’t remember women doing that(at least not as much) when I was 35-40. I didn’t feel any pressure much back then either; but with this, I can sure understand how a thirty-something guy might, if he feels even a little off his game.

        1. Kenley

          Many people have speculated on the impact porn may have on men.  I think the wide spread availability of free porn is also having a tremendous impact on women as well.  I think a lot more women are watching porn and  I think porn is causing some women to view sex as primarily about performance and getting off as well.

        2. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          as I’ve had next to no experience with any younger age group this time around), I’ve had the feeling they were almost keeping a mental scorecard-I didn’t know sex was supposed to be an Olympic event, … Oh, and how hard did he come (when I was ready for him to, of course)?Etc. etc. etc.”

          I’ve had men do that. Ask me if I came, as if they had failed if i didn’t. (I don’t see it as their job.) One announced beforehand that I would be coming twice. I’m not kidding. Do you know how UNsexy that was? It was all his ego. It had nothing to do with me.

          Now, I’m not the sexually relaxed type like you. 🙂 In the words of the great Kayne West: Go ahead, go nuts, go ape shit!

          And in terms of the affectionate part … if the situation warrants that. If it’s casual sex/dating … then no. Keep it on the level.

        3. Buck25

          I’ve had men do that. Ask me if I came, as if they had failed if I didn’t. (I don’t see it as their job.) One announced beforehand that I would be coming twice. I’m not kidding Do you know how UNsexy that was? It was all his ego. It had nothing to do with me.

          Emily,

          I wish I could say I’m surprised; honestly, I’m really not, given what I’ve heard from women (though whether the women’s attitude or the men’s came first is a chicken-and-egg sort of thing, and I’m not sure it matters). It does seem a pity that it’s come to that, but perhaps (as in so many other things), you generation has a different viewpoint. Something in it feels a bit cold and almost impersonal, to me; I mean, if it’s not about your partner at all, no real caring or feeling, just scratching an itch, or ego gratification…

          Some of this may be a product of a growing hook-up culture. Then too, I was reading Kenley’s post here, and I think she may be onto something-free porn becoming so ubiquitous, that it’s increasingly consumed by both men and women; might it be that this also contributes to a heavier emphasis on performance and getting off, as opposed to the emotional side of the experience? Combine that, and a hook-up culture that pretty much glorifies casual sex, and perhaps that’s part of the why of it.

        4. Emily, the original

          Buck25,
          It does seem a pity that it’s come to that, but perhaps (as in so many other things), you generation has a different viewpoint. Some of this may be a product of a growing hook-up culture.
          I didn’t grow up in the hookup culture. That’s the … um … generation below mine.  🙂    I actually have read the percentage (at least of young women) of people involved in the hook up culture is quite low. A lot don’t like it.
          Something in it feels a bit cold and almost impersonal, to me; I mean, if it’s not about your partner at all, no real caring or feeling, just scratching an itch, or ego gratification… That’s hard for me to relate to. It’s been a while since I’ve been with someone I cared about. Sometimes the caring and affection is shown in the moment … but disappears once you leave the room.

  16. 17
    PacNW Smile

    Gala,

    In fact, this type of guy is so common place in the dating market today that I am kinda surprised I have to explain it. Must be a generational thing and also the fact that you’ve been out of the market for a while.

    This is every guy I’ve dated for the last 10 or 15 years. The reason I’m still single at 46 is because men do not want to be in committed relationships today unless they want children or are not attractive ENOUGH to get sex regularly, and good ENOUGH in bed to keep women around they can string along. I would love to have a boyfriend who cares about me who I can care about. Evan’s advice has helped me understand men better so I don’t get my feelings hurt as much anymore, but I can be as “cool”, playful, supportive, accepting and sexy as I can be and it won’t help if men don’t actually want to have a girlfriend. They are happy ENOUGH with having several women they can text to come over for sex, using porn in between, and living their lives without a committed relationship. That’s how I am living my life now, too, but not because that would be my first choice. I’m enjoying their company and the fooling around (no intercourse, still following Evan’s advice though it is very hard sometimes) while waiting for one of them to make me a girlfriend, and then just keep moving forward when they inevitably ghost. It is difficult and lonely, but I just keep my chin up and keep dating, hoping a guy who really wants to be in a relationship finally shows up.

    1. 17.1
      Jeremy

      Men who have several women on call for sex likely won’t make good boyfriend/husband material IMHO.  If one spends one’s life practicing piano and getting really good at it, how likely is one, at age 50, to abandon piano for the flute?  If a man spends his whole life practicing for promiscuity and short-term goals, how likely is he to want to commit to one woman?  And if he does commit, how likely will he be to keep that commitment?

       

      For something as important to our long-term happiness as marriage and commitment are, one would think that people would practice for them during their youth rather than practice their antithesis.  If one does not practice at something, how on earth can one expect to be good at it?  Of course, the men in your comment aren’t practicing for marriage likely because they don’t want it.  Don’t see a point to it, have no motivation for it.

       

      Emily asked whether Mr Charisma who has a million options would be tempted to cheat in marriage.  My answer is that it doesn’t depend on how many options he has, it depends on his motivation not to act on his temptations.  Is Mr Charisma also Mr Stupid or Mr Impulsive?

      1. 17.1.1
        Gala

        I think no one should bet the farm on it but stranger things have happened. One of the biggest womanizers that i have ever dated who never wanted wife, kids, family and loved his life seeking all sorts of pleasures, got married in his 50ies (to a somewhat appropriately aged woman). Another guy i know socially married a 29yo woman when he was 50 and they had a child. Both were obviously well to do but thermodynamics wives weren’t poor either. The first has a high powered position, the second from a well to do family. So.. things happen.

        1. Jeremy

          Sure, things happen.  But are they the exception or the rule?  And are such unions more ore less likely to last over time?  Just as my advice to men is to choose a woman who always wanted a man like them (rather than a lane-changer), I’d offer the same advice to women.  Choose a man who always wanted to be married, not one who lived a playboy lifestyle and had an epiphany.  Not because it never works, but because it often pays to play the odds.

      2. 17.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Jeremy,

        Is Mr Charisma also Mr Stupid or Mr Impulsive?

        If a woman who has “that thing” decides she wants to settle down, and she lands a man she not only respects as a person but digs as a man, she’s going to know she’s hit the motherlode and probably be happy. If a man has “that thing,” (and I don’t mean he’s hooked up with a lot of women or dated a lot; any man can do that but that he has that extra special something that makes women take notice), if he decides he wants to settle down, I don’t know that it will be the same for him as it would be for his female counterpart. Women aren’t attracted to as large a swath of the male population as men are to the female population. A woman knows when she has landed something good because the probability she’ll meet another man of equal quality who appeals to her and wants her is low. 

        1. Jeremy

          Differing interpretations of what “quality” means, Emily.

        2. S.

          the probability she’ll meet another man of equal quality who appeals to her and wants her is low.

          I don’t know if this is true. Maybe! Maybe as Evan says some women value things other than character and also undervalue compatibility?

          For me it’s not that.  It’s staying too long with the guy with that ‘thing’. Or heck without that thing. 🙂 Just focusing too long on the wrong relationship.  Men seem to let go a bit quicker (I say ‘seem’ because that’s what it looks like on the outside.)  I think there might be a lot of men out there with that thing but you would have to let go of the one you’ve decided on to put yourself out there and meet more of them.

          That may be just me.  Others’ mileage may vary!

        3. Emily, the original

          Jeremy and S.,

          “That thing” is sexual charisma, but as I wrote he’s a person she also respects. The chances that she would find both in another man who also wants her is low.

  17. 18
    Semi

    Hmmmm……time to re-jack the thread (pun intended)

    I’m probably older than most of the folks that haunt this site and my dating pool is mostly made up of post-menopausal women because I prefer them closer to my own age.

    I simply don’t care if I can get it up and keep it up.  What I do care about is doing the best possible job whether my unit is working or not.  If I’m soft (usually late at night and slightly drunk), I have fingers, a tongue, my beard, and a drawer of toys that I use.  My goal is to make my partner do that near-epileptic, eye rolling, multi-orgasmic thing.  Sometimes I come. sometimes I don’t. As long as she starts snoring lightly afterwards, I’m happy.

    I’ve tried the drugs and they can help but, it feels like my erection is not connected to my brain.  Morning sex is always better.

    There are some women that I instantly respond to and some take a little work.

    My periodic limitations never, ever stop me and sometimes it’s funny.  I just don’t worry about it because I’ve adapted.  I’ve only had one women have a problem with that but I think that was on her, not me.  Needless to say, that relationship was short-lived.

    PIV sex is great when it happens but for me, is not the objective.  If sustained penetration is required, I have my backups.  I think in my case, age is the culprit as opposed to all of the other possibilities discussed previously.

    I think for men, I would say: Overcome, improvise, and adapt.  For the female readers: If he is struggling to get it up, ask for something different but don’t exacerbate the problem.  I think a lot of guys will appreciate exploring the alternatives with you if you ask politely.

    1. 18.1
      Lisa

      I think it depends on the age of your partner.  Many post menopausal women are fine with the type of sex you describe. But a woman in her 30s would likely not be.  And it’s okay to want what one considers a normal sex life.

    2. 18.2
      S.

      This works for me!  Always did in every decade.  Twenties, thirties, forties.  I’m glad too because it means I keep getting to have the sex I like to have no matter how old I am. And no matter how old men get.

      Yippeeeee!

      🙂

  18. 19
    D_M

    Lisa,

    The self esteem issue that you referenced, was on the part of women. That is the question I was asking, not how to boost male egos. Telling men to put down the porn won’t help younger women and it’s never going to happen. Being that we are operating in a porn environment, how should women proceed? The porn bell can’t be unrung. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, porn has always been around. Just google the history of pornography.

    Jeremy and YAG are touching on interesting aspects of this discussion. Jeremy is putting out little bread crumbs about learning how to please your partner, but the audience appears unreceptive. YAG highlights promiscuity, which undoubtedly has contributed to folks figuring out what floats their boat. Going back to the sentiments of my original comment, maybe her bedroom game just needs work. Come on, none of them want any in the morning. How plausible is that? Men in their 20s are generally less experienced than older men, so they are quit content with just being there. Guys in their 30s have had experiences, so let’s not simply chalk it up to porn.

    1. 19.1
      Lisa

      Sorry I thought you meant men. As for women If a man can’t perform in bed it’s going to effect 99% of women’s self esteem I don’t think there is anything that can be done to fix that. And if the reason he can’t perform is due to porn that lowers her self esteem even more. I think the whole thread about learning to please women is being ignored because you can try to please her all you want but if you can’t get it up or orgasm then she’s still not satisfied. Part of satisfying a woman is her seeing you are also turned on and satisfied. As far as saying men are not going to stop watching porn, if it’s more important to them then having a normal sex life that’s certainly their choice but women at least younger women are not going to stay around for that.  Not all men have ED from watching porn so she will just find one without it.

      1. 19.1.1
        Jeremy

        Hi Lisa.  It’s not that I disagree with what you wrote – I don’t.  But rather, it’s that I think that putting this issue in terms of what is good for women is counter-productive.

         

        If I’ve understood the thrust of your comments correctly, you are saying that men who are addicted to porn and have trouble performing with their partners cause psychological harm to those women.  No argument.  But what if the whole reason why the men got into porn to begin with is that they felt that too much emphasis is placed on what women want in society and not enough on what they (the men) want?

         

        Consider, for a moment, the male perspective that no one will ever tell you bluntly:  Men are addicted to female sexuality from the moment they hit puberty, in a way that I don’t think women will ever understand.  Imagine a sailor on a boat, dying of thirst, surrounded by water.  Everywhere he looks he sees what he needs, but he can’t use any of it.  Imagine how that would feel.  A young man entering puberty sees women all around him, knows that they could have sex with him if they wanted, but they don’t want to.  So, addicted to them as he is, he tries to figure out how to get what he wants.  He learns that he needs to court, to plan, to pay, to do the dance that women want him to do before they are willing to give him what he wants.  And as he matures, he finds that if he does the dance enough, he will eventually find someone who will have sex with him, but only for as long as he continues to dance.  Eventually he might ask himself whether there might be an easier way….and he will find porn.  It will be there for him in all its variety and visual stimulation – it will never say no to him, never judge him, never demand anything from him.  It will never make him dance to earn what he wants before he can get it.  Of course, it won’t offer him intimacy.  But intimacy is much higher on the pyramid of needs for men than it is for women.  For women, intimacy is a base need – only once that need is satisfied will most women agree to have sex.  For men, it is the reverse.  Only once they are no longer dying of sexual thirst can they clear their heads enough to think much about intimacy.

         

        So why shouldn’t such a man use porn?  The absolute WORST argument that we can give him is that it will prevent him from satisfying the needs of women.  The needs of women?  That’s all he’s ever heard of his whole life.  Porn is his ESCAPE from the needs of women.  Its raison d’etre is the man who is tired of dealing with the needs of women.

         

        Of course, the problem with my argument is its one-sidedness.  It doesn’t take into account the perspective of women at all – their needs and their trials – but that is by design.  Because the man using porn isn’t interested in them.  If we are to convince young men not to use porn, the reason can’t be to better achieve the needs of women.  It must be to achieve a happier MAN.  Such an argument can be made.  But it must be made in terms of the man’s needs, not the woman’s.  IMHO.

        1. Buck25

          Jeremy, on 19.1.1

          Nailed it! Brilliant!

        2. Lisa

          I don’t think the reason a man should not use porn has anything to do with a woman’s wants or needs.    The reason not to use porn is so that he the man can have a sexual relationship with a real live woman.   Not even a committed relationship just a sexual relationship.   Because if the man cannot perform in bed, then the women will just leave him, so it’s not really about them or their wants or needs, they will find other men to fulfill those needs,  it’s about him wanting to have sex with a real live human.    I mean as a man, would it not bother you if you could not perform in bed?   I suspect it bothers the man more than it bothers the woman, and then of course the woman can just up and leave that situation and find a man that does not have these issues, whereas a man will continue to have these issues no matter who he is with.  So yes sure it does hurt a woman’s self esteem, but her solution is to leave that relationship, and most do.  But what is the man left with?  He still has the problem where he cannot perform in bed and it’s going to continue to effect his relationships, and not just the “intimate” ones, any and all sexual relationships. I think the way to convince young men to not use porn is to show them that it sexually neuters them.    If a man is also tired of dealing with the needs of women, then women are going to want nothing to do with him.    This is indeed about him, not the wants or needs of women.

        3. Jeremy

          Except that it does not neuter the men at all, contrary to one of the articles posted above.  Men who are addicted to porn have lots of orgasms and erections.  Just not with women.  The question such men will have to ask themselves is whether or not they WANT to be with women.  Whether they want to pay the price of having to deal with women’s wants and needs, which are so different than their own.  The way to convince men is not to accuse them of being “neutered.” Nonsense.  Rather, it is the same argument we use against recreational drug use.  Namely, that using heroin, for example, feels so good that it makes other things that SHOULD feel good, not.  A heroin addict loses interest in family, friends, work, hobbies – all he can think of is heroin.  Life loses its meaning in search of positive affect, and so long-term happiness is elusive.
          The reason a man should avoid porn addiction (addiction, not porn) is to prevent the things that SHOULD matter in his life from not mattering.  So that the man in question can achieve happiness, which can only be achieved when relationships and meaning balance positive affect.  The reason a man should avoid addiction is not to better achieve the needs of women, nor is it to prevent women from leaving them.  It is for their own psychological well-being.  Regardless of the presence or absence of a woman in their lives.

        4. S.

          @ Jeremy

          not enough on what they (the men) want?

          The thing is how can women give men what they want and feel emotionally safe doing so.

          I’ll go back to one thing you said:

          they could have sex with him if they wanted, but they don’t want to.

          It’s not that they don’t want to.  When I was twelve I spent so much time thinking about sex.  I found boys attractive.  Wasn’t that I didn’t want to.  But I got my period at age 11. The consequences of having sex then would have been so dire. I saw so many teenage mothers, a few years older than I, going nowhere. People who acted on their desires.  A family friend died of AIDS from her husband when I was 19.   It’s not that we don’t want to.  It’s just that suddenly you as a beginning woman have adult responsibilities. You’re managing birth control, or having a kid, or an abortion, yeast infections, STIs.  And that boy who is 12, 14, 19 isn’t always ready to help shoulder those responsibility with you.  The desire for sex is still strong even with this, but it does put a damper on things.  Even with the strongest desire ever, I never could quite forget that that possible baby/disease/etc. could be in my body.  I worried more about this when I was a teen, you know at peak fertility.  Later I chilled more about it.

          So yes, I know you know this. I just wanted to let you know the desire was there in those women. (Maybe even for you!) And it’s strong. And long after childbearing years are done, those years with that responsibility have shaped who you are.  Like porn, you can’t put that responsibility back in the bottle either.

          One point that makes your point: Would a woman give up her sexual outlets as a single woman because it might affect a future relationship?  How many women will give up reading romance novels because they might give them unrealistic expectations of an actual relationship and those expectations make make it difficult for them to find and keep a relationship?

          Not many.  People need their sexual outlets.  If someone wants an actual, real-life intimate relationship and have found the person they want to be with, well, then they have to figure out whether to continue habits that make that end goal more difficult.  But giving that up before that? Nah, I don’t see it.

        5. Lisa

          @s personally I think attempting to compare how a woman feels post baby to a man who is choosing to jerk off to porn by the other posters offensive and a total lack of understanding and selfishness on the part of the man for his wife, as if she is there solely for his sexual pleasure.  And that’s a big trap that men that watch a lot of porn fall into. Because in porn women never say no, they are always ready for sex and sex anyway he wants it, that’s not realistic. And although he may not realize it a man who uses porn a lot treats women differently than one who doesn’t.   So really it becomes a question of what came first the chicken or the egg? More often than not the excessive porn use precipitated the lack of sexual interest by the woman in her partner not the other way around as many men see it. Let’s be frank here a man turning down sex with a live partner to sit in a room with his hand and a computer is not attractive at all. There seems to be some sentiment that women just have to put up with this but they don’t and they won’t.  When I read some of the posts by men I hear the country song “Don’t take the girl” except it’s replaced with “don’t take the porn.”  The idea that porn is so important that men are willing to give up whatever to have it. That’s really a sad state of affairs for the man who feels that way. If a man prefers porn that’s great he should have a relationship with it and not date real women I don’t take any issue with that.  But many men can’t have both they do have to pick.

        6. Jeremy

          Lisa, you wrote, “@s personally I think attempting to compare how a woman feels post baby to a man who is choosing to jerk off to porn by the other posters offensive and a total lack of understanding and selfishness on the part of the man for his wife, as if she is there solely for his sexual pleasure.”

           

          You are missing the point.  When it comes to the post-partum woman, you write about how the woman FEELS.  The man is ignoring how she feels.  When it comes to the man masturbating to porn, you do not write about how the man FEELS.  You totally miss the point about WHY he is masturbating to porn.  You wrote, “Because in porn women never say no, they are always ready for sex and sex anyway he wants it, that’s not realistic. ”  Do you think there’s a man on Earth who doesn’t know it isn’t realistic?  Did you understand my comment above on what men experience, growing up?  Men get fed up as to what is “realistic,” because what is “realistic” is not set by their own needs but rather the needs of women!  Eventually men get tired of dealing with the needs of others before their own get met….in EXACTLY the same way post-partum women do.  Try to understand this.  Because although you do not need to tolerate a man who does not prioritize you, the notion that your priorities are the ones that matter most is one that I see too often in married partners, male and female, and it is not a notion that is compatible with marriage.

        7. S.

          @Lisa

          personally I think attempting to compare how a woman feels post baby to a man who is choosing to jerk off to porn by the other posters offensive and a total lack of understanding and selfishness on the part of the man for his wife, as if she is there solely for his sexual pleasure.

          When you get married, I can’t think of a situation where sex isn’t a part of the agreement.  If it’s not, then maybe other outlets (other partners, porn, vibrators) are okay.  My point is people need a sexual outlet.  Especially married people.  I completely understand the postpartum woman.  I was the one helping these women with their babies.  I did that work for years, I get it.  But I also don’t think it’s fair to a man to never get sex ever again from his wife after a baby. Or for it to be some rare event.  Marriage is about an agreement.  Both partners have to agree to the terms.

          The physical part aside, sex is also a part of showing love and affection.  We as people need that.  I’ve never been married but I know what it’s like to lie next to someone you love very much and not feel able to touch them or to feel your touch might be rejected.  If it’s not a marriage of convenience, I can’t see why a woman would want her husband to feel like that indefinitely.

          It’s not just about porn.  For many sex is a need and they don’t get married to not have that need met.  And if she can’t meet it after the baby, I don’t feel that’s the end of that conversation.  Some alternatives or therapy or something has to be done to come up with a solution that works for both of them.

          Now if the man is truly a porn addict, was before and during the marriage. Was before and after the baby, that’s a different situation.  That’s about addiction.  But a situation where man who turns to porn solely because is wife can’t or doesn’t want to have sex after kids is completely different than a porn addict in my opinion.

        8. Lisa

          @jeremy yes they are many men that do expect sex to be just like it happens in porn, so they are plenty of men on earth that believe that.   So let’s make the comparison here.  A woman just gave birth to her husband’s child.   She is in pain, she is tired, and she needs time to physically recover.  A man is tired of meeting his woman’s needs and so he sits in a room and jerks off to pictures on a screen?  I am sorry but those are two total different things.   It is understandable that a woman that just had a child would not be physically ready for sex.  It is not understandable that a man would choose to use porn and not have sex with a woman, it is illogical in my mind. If it seem logical to you, great, it does not to me and never will no matter what you say.  I mean honestly to me, that guy is not much of a man at all.   I mean it’s super unattractive.  Have you dudes ever watched yourselves when you do it? Is that attractive, um no ick.    and would I as a single woman give up my sexual outlet in order to have sex with my partner, absolutely!

        9. Jeremy

          Lisa, first of all my comments were not about a woman who is 1 week or 1 month post-partum.  If we can not agree that it is extremely common for women to go off sex from the time of conception to several years post-partum, we have no basis to continue a discussion.

           

          Second, I feel somewhat frustrated here.  Because in spite of my continued efforts to implore you to see a perspective other than your own, you continue to make it all about the woman.  A man watches porn and masturbates – you question his manhood and tell him he looks unattractive.  You claim that you, as a woman, would give up your sexual outlet to have sex with a partner in a minute.  Would you do so if he made you dance whenever you wanted sex?  Seriously – if every time you wanted sex, if every time you reached out to your husband – he told you that you had to put on a hat and tapdance for him first, would you get a bit put off?  And what if he requested the tapdance, you did it, and he then told you he wasn’t in the mood and you had no right to expect anything, no matter how many tapdances you did?  Might you, at some point, seek the sexual outlet you abandoned in favour of partnered sex?

        10. Lisa

          @jeremy absolutely I would give my partner a lap dance every time if that was his thing.  I think the reason I don’t get what you are saying is because I don’t turn my partners down for sex, I actually cannot recall a time that I did.  So my ex had porn induced ED and turned me down for sex.  But somehow you are saying that I should understand that he turned to porn because I turned him down for sex or made him “dance” for me when that was just never the case I initiated.  You make the assumption that women are not the initiators or that women turning men down leads their man to porn but there are plenty of women that are not like that at all, that never turn their man down, that dress up sexy, that are willing to do whatever they want, but yet their partners are using porn and turning them down. So sure I can see that if a man was constantly turned down by his wife that he would turn to porn. But that’s not me, nor is it the majority of women in these situations. We are speaking of two different things. I’m speaking of women who initiate and want more sex, whose men still use porn and ignore them. You are not talking about the same thing. You seem to think it’s always the woman holding the keys to sex and that’s just not true. It may be in your experience but it’s not in many others.  You are looking for a way to blame the woman but it’s just not there in every case.

      2. 19.1.2
        Lisa

        @jeremy, well actually eventually true porn addicts, do start to have ED and DE problems, even with porn, and masturbation over time, so it can neuter a man totally.  If a man’s desire is porn and his hand, than that is his perogative, I have no issues with that. I agree that a man should stop watching porn for himself, but that would only apply if he wants to be in a relationship with another human being. If he does not, then I see no problem with that either.   In general both members of a couple have the want and need to have sex with each other.   Therefore, i cannot really understand why you seem to be trying to hang this issue up on a woman’s “needs.”  I am not sure what that has anything to do with?   So in a relationship a woman’s need is to have sex with her partner and a man’s is what?  Not to have sex with her?

        1. Jeremy

          Lisa, oftentimes in a relationship it is the wife rather than the husband who loses desire for sex.  It usually has nothing to do with porn, but rather simple loss of desire.  This is common as dirt, and often occurs after the first pregnancy.  In such circumstances, the husband finds himself in a quandary similar to the one you described.  In your case, porn was the etiological factor.  Frankly, that makes it easier rather than harder, because you have something tangible to point at.  In cases where a wife has lost desire, though, the husband often tries to get her to consider his desires, similar to how you (and others) were trying to get men to consider the desires of their wives. You wrote “In a relationship a woman’s need is to have sex with her partner and a man’s need is what?”  That is exactly the question that men ask in such a situation.  And the answer is – whatever it is, it isn’t sex.

           

          My point is not to argue with your assertion that “both members of a couple [should] have the want and need to have sex with each other.”  My point is that when one partner doesn’t – for whatever reason – it is because that person has lost the desire to have sex with their partner – and further, lost the desire to WANT to want to have sex.  At that point, only 1 question remains – can the person be motivated to see something in it for themselves to rekindle desire, or not?  If not, the relationship is doomed.  Because no amount of shaming language or external pressure will make someone want something they don’t want.

        2. Lisa

          I think you fall into the trap or common misconception that it’s the men wanting sex and the women turning them down, when often it’s quite the opposite. There are many women in sexless marriages and not because she does not want it.  I have had a higher desire than every man I have ever been with.  And I’m not against using porn, I’m against it when it causes issues sexually in a relationship. So men are turning down their wives because they have sexually expended their energy elsewhere.   I do think the underlying message I’m seeing, and not sure if you consciously are doing it, but that a man’s porn use is somehow the fault of women, and likewise so is his porn induced ED.  Women want the focus on them during sex, she turne d him down a few times, she does not initiate. This is quite common and wrong. If a man can’t perform in bed, the woman is blamed!

        3. S.

          About pregnancy and loss of desire for sex.  Some of that is hormonal.  Hormones change immediately postpartum.  And also hormones shift with nursing if a mom is nursing.  Exclusive breastfeeding on demand can actually inhibit ovulation, when is the time in the cycle when most women really want to have sex.  Sometimes things go back to normal after the baby takes solid food.  Some peoples hormones take a while to return to normal even if they never nursed.

          Another factor–exhaustion.  I once had a job helping new mothers at night–like a baby nurse.  It meant I didn’t sleep.  And I had a full-time day job too.  I was younger then. 😉 I like babies even though I didn’t feel a need then for one of my own.  I worked with twins at night too.  I wasn’t nursing anyone but I got so exhausted after months of this.

          I remember I kept bumping into the the pole you hold onto on the bus when I went home. I’m not an awkward person. I’ve been riding buses since I was six.  I was so tired that I just misjudged the distance. Happened twice–ouch!  If I was so exhausted that I couldn’t get off a bus without bumping my head, I couldn’t see the energy for sex, especially good sex.  It’s not that my hormones were unbalanced or I didn’t want sex. I was just so tired the world kind of was dim.  And the sound of a hungry baby–it silenced all other needs, at least for me.  If I had to go to the bathroom, eat something–nope, baby comes first.

          Don’t new Dads get exhausted too since they are also getting by on three hours of sleep a night for several months since they help bottlefeeding moms with feeding?  Does exhaustion not affect male sexuality?

          Sometimes it really is just sheer exhaustion the first few years.  Not necessarily that a woman just up and stops wanting herr partner.  I’m not sure how to mitigate that or how long that lasts.  But the new baby exhaustion struggle is real.

          I write this stuff because most women I know do really do love and want sex! So maybe it’s not trying to motivate her to want it. She already wants it.  Maybe she needs sleep to have the space to meet that need. It’s her need too.  If it’s hormonal and she’s not nursing, there are people you can consult about that too.

          I believe people can figure it out if they have the emotional and physical reserves to.

        4. Shaukat

          I’ve now read some of the articles/studies from the site posted by Lisa, many of which are quite interesting, but, by their own admission, also quite inconclusive. It should be noted that several were based on self-reporting and laboratory experiments. While the latter are certainly very useful in terms of isolating causal factors in very controlled settings, they are far less useful when it comes to drawing conclusions about real life interactions, which are full of counteracting mechanisms. At any rate, what the research seems to show is that porn addicts require greater stimuli over time to become aroused, which is quite different from medically induced ED. From one of the reviews:

          “We show experimentally what is observed clinically that [compulsive internet pornography use] is characterized by novelty-seeking, conditioning and habituation to sexual stimuli in males” [86]. In a related study, many of these same subjects had also reported sexual arousal and erectile difficulties in partnered sexual activity, but not during Internet pornography use [31]. This implies that Internet pornography-induced sexual difficulties may be partly due to conditioned expectations of novelty that are not matched in partnered sexual activity.”

           

        5. Jeremy

          S., I’ve written about this topic so many times, but to briefly address your questions:

          ”Don’t new dads also get exhausted? Doesn’t exhaustion affect the male sex drive?”  Yes, and no.

           

          WHile it is certainly true that new parents are exhausted, that does not explain the phenomenon.  It isn’t that these women (and yes, it is usually women) want sex but are too tired.  They don’t want it at all.  They resent the hell out of their husbands for even looking at them sexually.  Some of this is hormonal, but much of it is also simple changes in goals/priorities.  And there is absolutely zero guarantee that the libido will return once the baby is older. While this is certainly explainable, it is not justifiable.  One can not lose one’s libido for years and expect a marriage to proceed happily.  And unfortunately, the message that women are getting from society and their friends is that it is not only possible, but their husbands are immature assholes for not expecting it.  Imagine if society told men it was ok not to talk to their wives for years because they were too tired.  A love language is a love language.

           

          Lisa, while it is definitely true that many women suffer through sexless marriages, statistically it is more often women who lose desire at a young age (30s and 40s).  The porn issue is simply giving some women a taste of what men have experienced.  If a man loses his libido is it the woman’s fault?  Maybe, but not necessarily.  Flip the question – if a woman loses her libido, is it the man’s fault?  Depends why she lost it, doesn’t it.  In my own marriage, my wife lost her libido for almost a decade and it was definitely my fault.  I gave her everything she ever wanted, resulting in her not having any reason to prioritize sex.  It was only when I pulled back that sex became a priority for her.  In other marriages, a woman might lose her libido because of a man’s behavior – and so might a man lose his libido.  If a man prefers porn to sex, the reason might be simple addiction or it might be because he feels the sex isn’t worth it to him.  Nothing in it for him.  Same as the woman who loses her libido.

        6. Lisa

          @shukut when my ex developed ED/DE it was totally fixed when he stopped the porn and masturbation.  So what I am saying is do your own research. If a man is having ED and is otherwise physically healthy and using porn/masturbating he should stop to see if that fixes it, studies aside. If it does then he has an answer if not then he can go onto other causes. Does that not make sense?

           

          On the no fap community there are thousands of men who had this exact same issue and fixed it by stopping.

        7. S.

          @Jeremy

          I agree, that it’s absolutely unacceptable to change one’s sexual priorities in a marriage permanently.  Exhaustion and hormones explain the change, but I certainly don’t think that any partner should not try and find solutions.

          It isn’t that these women (and yes, it is usually women) want sex but are too tired.  They don’t want it at all.

          This hasn’t been my experience with my friends.  Maybe the women you know are different.  My friends all wanted sex with their husbands and most of them had it.  I think that maybe one stopped having sex for a long while with her husband.  But that seemed like issues that stemmed long before they had babies.  And they still managed to have two kids without regular sex.

          And unfortunately, the message that women are getting from society and their friends is that it is not only possible, but their husbands are immature assholes for not expecting it.

          I somehow grew up in American society and I never got that message.  Do you think it’s an economic class difference? I grew up working class (perhaps lower) and all my friends who had kids were as well.  (Though most of them are middle class now.)  Is this something that differs for upper class women who stay home?  Maybe that explains the different message?

          I know you have said some of these things before, but I simply have never met a woman, and I’ve known so many women, who thought not having sex with their husband indefinitely was preferred and okay.  I just haven’t seen that. Most of my friends so desired their husbands and were thrilled when they had sex.  I understand if you have seen differently.  I’m just offering my experience and observations into the discussion.

        8. Jeremy

          I appreciate your comment, S.  If you had asked my wife whether or not we still had a sex life during the decade I describe, she would have said yes.  We averaged about twice per month, which was more than enough for her.  And when asked (by me) about it, she thought we did it far more often than we actually did.  Because our memories are fallible and oh so subject to our emotions and what we believe “should have happened.”  The story of our lives that we want to tell ourselves.  That was the irony of “spreadsheet guy” – the guy who recorded his sex life over a month on an Excel spreadsheet and showed it to his wife – the fact that she rejected his advances 8 times out of every 9, yet she still believed they had an ok sex life.

           

          You don’t know any women who believe their sex lives have tanked….but have you asked their male partners?  I believe you’d get quite a different story.  And I have no idea about the effect of SES.  Most of my peers are upper-middle class, more or less.  But the articles I read are directed toward the general population.

        9. S.

          @Jeremy

          I saw that spreadsheet.  I don’t know why she thought that was okay. Most women I know are not that okay with that little sex.  Like I said in other comments, the women I know really like sex!  With kids or without.  Married or not.  They want to have it.

          I don’t think any partner should renegotiate the frequency of sex without the other partner’s input.  That’s not fair.  Now maybe some people think quality is better than frequency? Hmm.  Most women I know want both 🙂 And one shouldn’t have to choose.  But that’s a couples decision that they make together.

          I have not asked the men.  That can be rather personal!  And I don’t know the men as well, honestly.  There is one couple I know well. I was good friends with the woman and now am good friends with both.  Their marriage ended and yes, the sex was lacking in the latter part of the marriage.  My female friend wanted it!  She always thought he was so hot. I do remember when it looked like she was falling for someone else, it was completely out in the open, I asked was he worried? He wasn’t. He was completely fine and open to polyamory.  I think that in this case he and my friend fell out of love and ended up good friends.  The lack of sex and her falling for someone else only happened because their marriage had just slowly withered.  There was a point earlier when my female friend so wanted to save it but years passed and she couldn’t try and save the marriage without his help.

          I know him better now.  He can get really set in inertia sometimes.  Sometimes it’s depression, sometimes it’s the hyperfocus of his ADD, sometimes I don’t know.  But you can’t get him moving until he’s ready.  I never ask about sex because well, he’s still a teeny bit sad over the end of the marriage and at the same time it’s all so water under the bridge at this point.

          It’s been several years.  I don’t see him often but maybe one day I will ask.  I honestly think the question is more about his tendency to be inert, rather than sex.  But when I have a friend, I accept their flaws and stop questioning them about them after a while. Even as a friend, I would have to think carefully how I’d say it.

        10. Nissa

          Jeremy, I think you hit on a really important point: My point is that when one partner doesn’t – for whatever reason – it is because that person has lost the desire to have sex with their partner – and further, lost the desire to WANT to want to have sex.

          In my relationships, I definitely had sex with my partner when I wasn’t really into it at the start. Usually this was because I was in the middle of something else, tired or not feeling particularly sexy. But I almost never said no. I didn’t know that there were a lot of women who didn’t have sex during their periods until I’d been married for years. (Maybe it’s a Christian thing?) But once I got started, I was almost always swept away by the loving feelings generated by touch, smell and feel.

          To me, this speaks highly to your point of whether or not the person WANTS to want it. Because I wanted to want my partner, to please him, and because it did not ask more of me than I was able to give, I could do that.

          Now in my other relationship, I could have offered what the other person wanted, but I didn’t want to. I was too angry with her, too resentful of her desires, felt too harassed by her. The gap between what she wanted and what I was willing to offer was too wide.

          That’s why, in your wife’s mind, you two have a sex life by having sex twice a month. Not only did it meet her needs, but was in excess of her needs, in excess of her wants. That means every time she had sex, she was doing it for the other person in spite of what she wanted. When you are doing something for someone, and not only do they not appreciate your sacrifice, but badger you about not giving more – hell no, you are not going to want to give more.

          That’s a mismatch. Both sides would be in error to blame the other for having whatever wants and needs they have. It’s not reasonable to demand that others want what we want (and is very unlikely to happen). It’s more loving to accept what they can and can’t offer, and recognize when what once matched, no longer matches.

          If I was in your wife’s shoes, I would have to honestly evaluate how much sex I wanted. If you could not accept twice a month, then a break up would be appropriate in my mind. If I could tolerate giving sex more often, that would be a good compromise – but that is only possible when each partner is willing to boldly claim what they want and what they are willing to offer. If I wanted no sex at all and wanted to stay married, I would consider giving the husband a free pass in regard to sex so long as he was discreet.

          It always comes back to each of us being responsible for our own lives, that we are never victimized by someone else, we always have the power of choice.

      3. 19.1.3
        Yet Another Guy

        @Lisa

        if the man cannot perform in bed, then the women will just leave him, so it’s not really about them or their wants or needs, they will find other men to fulfill those needs, 

        You just supported Jeremy’s thesis.  There is nothing about the needs of the man in your assertion.  Performing in bed is about meeting the needs of a woman, not his own.  A man who is using porn is getting his needs met, quite expediently I may add.

         

        1. Jeremy

          Their short-term needs, certainly.  Their long-term needs are often neglected.  Problem is, they can’t think so far ahead, doped-up as their brains so often are.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Jeremy

          I agree that there may be a price to pay, but I find the “she will leave him if he cannot maintain an erection and orgasm inside of her” argument to be quite sophomoric.  That is not a very welcoming way for a woman to induce a man a to please her. If a man is having performance problems in the bedroom, the last thing he needs is for a woman to put pressure on him.  That pretty much ensures that things will not improve.

          I wonder how many women would get pissed if the guy they were with insisted that they swallow and do anal?  I have lost count of the number of women who have said “no” to both of those requests.  Better yet, allow a man to tie them up, apply ball gag, and drip hot candle wax on their bodies.  I personally would rather go without oral sex if I have to worry about orgasming in a woman’s mouth.  That completely kills it for me.  It is not like I say, “I will go down on you, but do not squirt in my face.”  I can assure any man who has never had that happen to him that it comes as quite a shock the first time it occurs, especially if a woman is a heavy squirter. If a woman wants a man to concentrate on pleasing her, she needs to remove the word “no” from her vocabulary.

          The thing on which I will agree with Buck25 is that post-menopausal women who are still sexually active are a hell of lot more fun in bed than pre-menopausal women. Why? Because they have no preconceived notions about what has to occur, nor are they judgemental when they climb into bed with a man. They do not freak out if a man does not climax during intercourse. For them, the journey is as important as the destination.  A post-menopausal woman is also very appreciative of a man who takes his time to please her because she is also often struggling with the effects of aging on her own sexuality.

          As to modern forty-something women, well, I dated mostly women who were in their mid-to-late forties when I first re-entered the dating pool.  I could not get over how many of these women wanted really rough sex, sex rough enough to leave bruises all over their bodies.  We are talking about being seriously manhandled with hair pulling and choking. While I was with a few women who liked rough sex before I married, it is like the Internet has created a whole new breed of sub-fifty-something woman. I am curious if these women also watch too much porn.

        3. Lisa

          Again @yet another guy I think you are missing what I am saying. A man that has age related ED is totally different than a man with porn induced ED that won’t fix it by stopping.  If a man is getting his needs met with porn so be it, I just have zero desire to be with that man. I suppose I am making the assumption that sex with a real live human is better than taking matters into your own hands in front of a tv screen.  And it’s a woman’s need to have sexual intercourse, a man is perfectly fine with being limp and unable to. And and still do not see how this is about a woman’s needs. I just don’t see it.  And asking for anal or swallowing is different. A man with PIED is not gaining pleasure of able to complete most Acts alone whereas a woman who does not like anal, or swallowing is still willing and able to do other things.  I personally am open to whatever a guy notes.  But anal sex is painful and I’m not sure why a man would want his partner in pain.  I know I kmow porn shows you that women love that stuff all women right?  But since you still think this has to do with a woman’s needs, tell me what should she do to get and keep the man from choosing porn over her?

        4. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          If a woman wants a man to concentrate on pleasing her, she needs to remove the word “no” from her vocabulary. 

          You have posted this “remove no from her vocabulary” SO many times. There are women who will do whatever you want but they cost money. 

        5. Jeremy

          You can’t necessarily get a porn-addicted man to choose sex with you over porn, as I think you know.  THe problem is that the harder you try, the more guilt and stress you put on him, the more he will want to self-medicate with the porn – the point of which is to give stressless pleasure.  All you can do is to make life with you as stressless as possible and get him into an addiction recovery program.  Failing that, leave the marriage if your needs are not being met and you find the situation intolerable.  There are plenty of men out there who are still happy to have sex with a real woman and don’t find the price too onerous.

  19. 20
    Buck25

    Jeremy,

    That’s an interesting theory you posit in 17.1  I hadn’t thought of it quite that way, but intuitively, it makes sense. I wonder if that underscores the idea that a man may have a few tipping points in his life, where what he chooses might send him down one course or the other, i.e. toward or away from  relationships/marriage? Once a player, always a player? I think I recall a couple of places in my own life, where that sort of shift might have taken place, but didn’t, for one reason or another. Then again, we never know what was down the path not taken, do we?

    1. 20.1
      Jeremy

      I don’t know if it’s that “once a player always a player.”  I know examples of players who married – both male and female.  But as I’ve written so many times, motivation is what matters because it will dictate the future.  If a man was a player, WHY was he a player?  Was it because he craves novelty?  If so, he will always do so.  That doesn’t mean he won’t be able to maintain a monogamous married life if he so chooses, but rather that married life will pose a unique challenge for him to overcome his own internal desires in favour of what he “should” want.  Which will prevail, his frustration or his guilt?  Thankfully I don’t have that problem in my marriage, because novelty was never my thing.

       

      I think that some personalities lend themselves better to married life than others – it is easier for some versus others.  Not because they lack options, but because the options matter less to them.

      1. 20.1.1
        Buck25

        Jeremy,

        Yes, perhaps that is so. Then again, I wonder if the options are quite the same, or mean quite the same thing, at different life stages. At least, I find that that both as they were at 35, seem very different at twice that age, and there are times now, when I wonder, what is relevant now, and what no longer is. A strange place sometimes, this time of contemplation, in the twilight of life..

  20. 21
    Kenley

    I am curious as to why the word no should be removed from a woman’s vocabulary when it comes to  sex.  If that’s the case, why then shouldn’t no be eliminated from every situation for couples? It seems unrealistic  to think a person should never say no to their  partner for anything.  What is the rationale for separating sex from everything else?  Why is sex the area where a woman shouldn’t be allowed to exercise free will?

    If there are tons of things that a man really wants to do and the woman doesn’t, that means she’s not the right woman for him.   The solution isn’t for her to engage in activities she doesn’t like.  The solution is for the man to find a sexually compatible partner.  When I am not sexually compatible, I don’t judge the guy or criticize him for his preferences, I just let him know that it won’t work for us because we are on different places on the kink-o-meter.

    The other problem with never saying no is that in our culture is women’s sexuality is still not free of judgment.  If she happily does EVERY act requested, she’s a slut; if she only wants vanilla, she’s a prude….even in 2018.

    1. 21.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Kenley

      Sexuality is a complex subject. How many women are willing to openly admit their male-count (M-count) to their lover?  In his skit entitled “Platonic Friends,” Chris rock warns men that they should not ask a woman for her M-count because they do not want to know.  However, I am a firm believer that not being open just sows seeds of doubt in a man’s mind or leaves a sexually experienced woman unfulfilled because she has to suppress her needs in order to not give away her past.  The more open a couple is in the bedroom, the stronger their bond.  Is a man going to be floored by a woman who has a high M-count?  I would say that the answer to that question would be “yes” in my age cohort when I was younger. I suspect that it is less of a problem with Millennials due to hookup culture. However, a man who is going to get over it is going to get over it, and man who will not will be devastated when he finally learns the truth years after he says, “I do.”  There was a thread over on the TRP subreddit that was re-posted from another subreddit where a man learned that the prude he thought he married was actually a slut when she was younger. He assumed that she did not like sex when she refused to do oral and various sex positions with him.  His world was rocked when he discovered a video tape that showed her in a gang bang doing those things and asking for more (why anyone would kept this kind of evidence is beyond me, but people keep all kinds of things as trophies).  The guy was clearly devastated because he was asking for advice on how to proceed legally. His wife had agreed to do those things after he confronted her with the video tape, but he knew that it was not a case of she did not want to do those things, she did not want to do those things with him. That had to be soul crushing because it cuts at the heart of a man’s manhood.  When a woman buries her sexual past to secure marriage, all she does is set the man she allegedly loves up for a devastating blow if the truth eventually comes out, and most of the time, it does eventually come to the surface.  If a woman sets about attempting to convince a man that she is a special snowflake when it comes to chastity, she better be a special snowflake; otherwise, a price will be paid in the future, often after children arrive and divorcing becomes complicated.

      1. 21.1.1
        Kenley

        My question for that guy is why in the world did he marry a woman who wouldn’t perform oral sex or do all the things he wanted from her?  That’s on him.

        However,  as you like to say, the cold hard truth is that women know most men will not commit to a woman who embraces her full sexuality.  Women don’t get to have a plentiful past full of different experiences… only men do.    If that woman had told him about her gang bang and all that she had done in her past, he would have fucked her every which way, but I bet he wouldn’t have married her and she know it.  Unfortunately, it’s one of the lies women feel compelled to tell because some men can’t it.  It’s really not that complicated.  Men need to stop having a double standard when it comes to sex.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Kenley

          I suspect that he settled for less than he desired because he loved her and assumed that that was the way she was in the bedroom. I seriously doubt that he chose to marry her because he thought that she was a prude.  The fact that she never did any of those things with him in their marriage is the real problem.  It is a clear cut sign that sexual desire was never there on her part.  Sex with her husband was chore that was part of the marriage contract.  To use a Jeremyism, she chose comfort over desire.

          You are correct that a lot of women assume that they need to bury their sexual pasts in order to secure a man long term.  However, that is just a recipe for disaster.  I mentioned in a previous blog entry about how I have had talk friends down from the ledge when they discovered that a woman was not a special snowflake.  In most cases, it was not that these women had a past. It was because they chose to bury it.  To many men, that decision is seen as an act of betrayal.  It makes a woman untrustworthy, and a man feel like a chump for believing her.  Just like a person should move on if his/her lover is unwilling to meet his her sexual needs, a woman should move on if a man is unable to handle her past.  What she should not do is bury it. If a man cannot handle it, he is not right for her.  In essence, most men do not care if their woman is a whore in the bedroom.  In fact, achieving a madonna and a whore in one woman is seen as perfection.  What most men want is to be secure in the knowledge their woman is their whore.  It is about trust because once a man gives his heart to a woman, he is instinctively driven to protect her from other men.  A man’s greatest fear in relationship with a woman is becoming her cuckold (followed closely by being taken to the cleaners 🙂 ).

          With that said, one area where I disagree with Evan is on the “waiting until he commits before having sex” rule. Not so much because it is a bad practice, but because it can send the wrong message (i.e., the “I am a special snowflake” message). If a woman is going to pull that maneuver, she needs to disclose that she has not made men wait in the past, but feels the need to make him wait because she really likes him and needs to protect her heart. That disclosure places the ball in his court. To do anything else is to risk projecting a false image of herself.

          A lot of women use the argument that a man only values what he has to earn; however, that dog does not hunt in the grand scheme of things because guys almost never make a woman wait, even women for whom they are transfixed. Most guys want to have sex as a soon as possible. It is the conquer part of the primal urge to pursue and conquer. From that point, a man usually decides what else he desires from a woman.  All delaying does is give him an opportunity to learn something about a woman before having sex, a period of time where he can make a go/no-go decision without sex clouding his judgement.  A lot of guys will break pursuit during this period of time not because a woman made them wait, but because they decided that the juice was not worth the squeeze.  In this case, the woman is better off because guys will do and say whatever it takes to get into a woman’s pants if that is all they desire.  I guarantee that there are very few women who read or post to this blog who have not have not been subjected to that high speed pass.

      2. 21.1.2
        Nissa

        YAG, I think you are not taking a few things into account. Is no one allowed to learn from the mistakes in their past? For example, Evan was a slut for a time, then realized that it wasn’t meeting his needs, and he switched tactics. That really has nothing to do with his wife.

        What if the woman in your example was asked to say those things, because it was what the men she was with wanted to hear. You would have to ask that individual if it really was what she wanted at the time, and what had changed for her. I would guess it has almost nothing to do with her partner, now or then. She may have tried it and discovered that she hated it, or that it made her feel bad, or just that it wasn’t her thing. She may have been desperate for attention, money or love. People do excessive things when they feel desperate.

        Here’s another way to look at it. You want sex on your dates, sooner rather than later. That is true for you for ALL of your dates. It doesn’t change based on which person is with you on that date. I’m assuming that you didn’t know that you hated being squirted in the face until it happened. Maybe the first time you were just surprised, but then when it happed again, you formed an opinion of it – that you didn’t like it and began to avoid it.

        Extrapolating that to imply feeling about the partner seems like a reach to me. The person feeling devastated would do very well to look for a ‘pain of origin’ that is the likely source of this issue, and could be freed from the ongoing pain of having everything be about her or him.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Jeremy,

          No doubt it was soul crushing for that man.  I certainly wouldn’t dispute that.  Nor am I interested in rehashing whether it’s a good thing or not that some men are really affected by their partner’s body count.

          Let’s back things up a bit.  You say some men marry and THEN discover that their wife is sexually restricted.  With the widespread practice of premarital sex in the western world, I’m sure whether a spouse is sexually restricted, whatever the reason, is apparent before the walk down the aisle.  So the question is, why did the man in question, or any man really, compromise on such an issue and marry someone he had a base incompatibility with?

          The whole the husband decides to “work with her” on sex sounds about as inadvisable as saying you will work with a future spouse on their excessive drinking or their weight problem.  Not a good thing to marry someone that you plan on trying to change in a fundamental way.

          I find it surprising how men will repeat early and often how important sex is to them, and then they get involved with women who, up front, aren’t sexually compatable with them.  (I know a handful of men who bitterly relay their girlfriend/wife won’t give blow jobs) Then they wonder why they or their partner isn’t happy and things come undone.

          In Love U we go through the wants vs. needs and compromising questions, and never does Evan advise compromising on something that is a core need for our happiness in a relationship.  There is no way I would be in an LTR much less marry a man who wouldn’t go down on me.  If they are that sexually restricted, they are not comparable with me.  And they would likely be happier to with a more conservative woman.  I don’t care how tall a man is or whether he has a degree or not as long as he is financially responsible.  That’s where I compromise on a man.  Not on whether we are sexually compatable.

        2. Jeremy

          So the question is, why did the man in question, or any man really, compromise on such an issue and marry someone he had a base incompatibility with?”  Oh, any number of bad reasons, I suppose.  Number 1 on my differential is that she was hot – perhaps hotter than the other women he’s been with.  And in spite of YAG’s accurate assessment that he is “beta bux” to her (ie. comfort rather than arousal) he hoped he could win her over.  Hope is such a dangerous thing.  Can so often lead to bad outcomes as opposed to good ones.  And so the man in question does exactly as Robert Glover describes in his book – he gives and gives, and sacrifices – and never gets what he wants.  Because he made a bad decision – and when that decision gets plastered on a tv screen he feels crushed.  He made a bad decision.  She used him for a relationship with no regard to his needs.  He has a right to feel crushed, her behavior was not defensible, and hopefully he will learn a lesson.

        3. Jeremy

          Having said that, I’ll add something I’m sure you know.  The reduction in sex more often happens after marriage rather than before – and moreso after kids.  And at that point, the decision to “work with her on it” is often made as a sunk-costs fallacy.

        4. Tom10

          @ Jeremy
          “She used him for a relationship with no regard to his needs.  He has a right to feel crushed, her behavior was not defensible, and hopefully he will learn a lesson.”
           
          I disagree; this sentiment infantilizes his personal agency. It was his own fault. A grown adult can’t be used for a relationship.
           
          In truth, he wasn’t good-looking enough to sexually attract the women he wanted, so he had to employ annoy tactic to get the woman he wanted. Which then back-fired on him. He has no right to feel crushed; he could have married an average woman who’d treat him like gold, but no, they weren’t good (hot) enough for him.
           
          It’s only fair that if men advocate women taking personal responsibility on dating matters (who they have sex with) that we then advocate men similarly taking personal responsibility.

        5. Emily, the original

          to10

          In truth, he wasn’t good-looking enough to sexually attract the women he wanted, so he had to employ annoy tactic to get the woman he wanted.

          Thomas, I’d really like to see ONE of your posts not mention appearance, but I will agree with you to an extent. He didn’t have enough game /charisma/je ne sai quoi (because appearance with no game means nothing). 

        6. GoWiththeFlow

          Jeremy & Tom,

          I do believe the husband from the reddit forum had a uniquely shocking experience when he viewed his wife’s gangbang video.  Heck, even if my guy had told me at some point “Back in the day, I did this really crazy thing one night. . .” I would still be stunned to stumble upon the visual proof.  There just isn’t any magic brain bleach out there to erase that from your brain.

          As far as who is responsible for that dysfunctional relationship, I think both partners wrecked that train.  The guy really ignored some serious red flags about sexual incompatibility (and someone not being that into you is a form of incompatibility) and hoped he could change his wife.  OTOH it looks like she screwed up by ignoring the lack of attraction or chemistry she felt for him. Maybe she too thought this would change.

          I’m glad Tom brought up the issue of agency because when I think of red pill sites, one big overarching theme I see is that they encourage men to see themselves as blameless victims of women and society and in doing so rob men of the opportunity to exercise positive agency in their relationships.

          Accepting and exercising your own agency is hard because to have to face the role you played in your own misery.  But the flip side of that coin is that you can learn from your mistakes how to make better decisions that will lead to greater life contentment.

          So yes, the wife’s bad decisions had a very negative impact on her husband and their marriage.  But the husband made some critical misjudgments of his own that significantly contributed to the dumpster fire.  The only thing the man can control are his own actions and reactions.  Hopefully he was able to get the help he needed to see his contributing role in this drama so he can set important priorities and boundaries in the future and find a healthy relationship.

          Lastly, Jeremy, I do hear what you’re saying about how couples can find themselves in a sexual quandary years into a relationship.  Hopefully, both men and women realize at the outset that they won’t always be perfectly in sync and they have the insight and compassion to work through those times.

        7. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original
          “Thomas, I’d really like to see ONE of your posts not mention appearance”
           
          Haha, touché Emily. I wonder if I mention appearance more than you mention chemistry?
           
          How about we play a little game; I’ll try to eliminate appearance and leagues from my blogging lexicon and you try to eliminate chemistry from yours? Maybe an honest broker like Marika, GWtF or Shaukat can report back in 6 weeks to see who has improved the most? That way we’ll actually make tangible improvements to our dating lives which are directly attributable to this blog! 😉 🙂

        8. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          I wonder if I mention appearance more than you mention chemistry? Point taken, Mr. Thomas. I meant what I wrote that appearance means nothing without game/charisma/personality and was going to ask you if you’ve ever been with a really attractive woman who turned out to be bland, but then I busted out laughing and realized that wasn’t possible.  🙂How about we play a little game; I’ll try to eliminate appearance and leagues from my blogging lexicon and you try to eliminate chemistry from yours? Maybe an honest broker like Marika, GWtF or Shaukat can report back in 6 weeks to see who has improved the most? Challenge accepted, but you post about 2 comments a week. I post about 2 a day, so you are ALREADY at an advantage (just like a man!  🙂   )   So I’m not sure how to even that out. We’d have to be posting roughly the same number of comments weekly.

        9. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          And so the man in question does exactly as Robert Glover describes in his book – he gives and gives, and sacrifices – and never gets what he wants. No man with a shred of self respect would do that. He would demand a relationship of equal investment. 

      3. 21.1.3
        GoWiththeFlow

        YAG,

        That poor man didn’t need to find his wife’s gangbang video to figure out she wasn’t the right person for him.  The fact she wouldn’t do oral or certain positions were huge red flags waving right in his face.  It has nothing to do with what her body count was and when he learned of it.  It has everything to do with her attitude towards sex and relationships.

        In comment 16 above, Nissa beautifully describes how a woman with an integrated, whole-picture view of men experiences sex:

        “What bothers me about this is that it seems like this evaluation of ‘men’s performance’ is so divorced from the men to whom the penis is attached. What about loving the man behind the penis?

        For me, sex is not just about the physical act. Yes, the act is lovely, especially with a partner who you’ve had before and you know each other’s preferences. To me, sex is about loving the man in front of me. A lot of that is physical, but there’s also appreciation of HIM, and all the qualities of him – including non physical qualities like aggressiveness, boldness, playfulness, verbosity, creativity. It’s about drinking him in with my eyes, my hands, my mouth; about being the receiver of his desire. It’s about my enjoying his body and enjoying his pleasure. None of that is predicated on an orgasm on either side, although that of course is nice. I just find that the act of loving is pleasurable, and making one part of that greater whole, into the entire thing, feels off to me”

        Up until Nissa’s comment what this whole discussion about whether men do or should want to please a woman in bed was lacking is that sex is a mutual experience where many facets of a relationship play out.  Of course a man should be interested in his woman’s pleasure, just as the woman should be concerned about her man’s pleasure and satisfaction.

        At the outset of a relationship, whether you are a man or a woman, if your partner isn’t interested in whether you are satisfied in the sack or not is very important information to seek.  Not being concerned about whether a partner has orgasms is a bad sign.  Saying no to engaging in what are widespread and socially normal sex acts, like oral sex, is another sign that this person isn’t up to the give part in the mutual give and receive dynamic that is necessary to have a mutually satisfying experience.  Both people should strive to be “good in bed” for their partner.

        A big problem with red pill sites is that the feedback this guy likely got, other than go to an attorney, is that women are dumb sluts who are not to be trusted.  I hope someone encouraged him to go to therapy to figure out why he chose this selfish woman in the first place.

        1. Jeremy

          Hi GWTF.  You wrote, “That poor man didn’t need to find his wife’s gangbang video to figure out she wasn’t the right person for him.  The fact she wouldn’t do oral or certain positions were huge red flags waving right in his face.  It has nothing to do with what her body count was and when he learned of it.  It has everything to do with her attitude towards sex and relationships.”

           

          I see your point, but I disagree.  I remember the post in question very well.  The problem is that many men get married and discover that their wife is somewhat sexually restricted, but are willing to work with them on it.  Accept it about them.  Perhaps they had a traumatic childhood, or religious upbringing, or whatever.  So you put in the work, and you try to get her more comfortable, and you accept that she has some limitations.  But to discover that she has engaged in all kinds of sexual activities in the past – has done everyone and everything with everyone…except YOU….that is devastating.  It is FAR more devastating than simply having a wife who is sexually restricted.  A basic tenet in psychology and behavioral economics is that we view everything in context.

        2. D_M

          I think what you are seeing, is how each of us internalize the physical aspect of relationships. You appear to be in the whole in camp, rather than the measured intimacy camp. S posted:

          The thing is how can women give men what they want and feel emotionally safe doing so.

          I read that and immediately thought, what’s the point if you can’t lose yourself in the moment. Everyone has varying degrees of inhibition. Maybe what S wrote is common among women. I never felt the need to have an intimacy check valve.

        3. S.

          @D_M

          Thanks for picking up on that.  I think I know what you mean because I’ve been thinking about it lately.  Honestly, I don’t think of it as an intimacy check valve.  At least not once in bed. Once I’m in bed, that’s it.  It’s the whole intimacy hog. Physically, mentally, emotionally.  That’s what losing myself in the moment means to me.  Is that what you meant by intimacy?

          I think I measure the emotional intimacy before sex.  Just like it’s difficult for women to understand how much stronger the sexual urge is in men, men may not get just how wide open (pun intended) a woman may be during sex. Not just physically.  And not all women, but some.  And it’s not just the sort of then you open up for and then snap shut for a week or so and then open back up again.

          And honestly, if I completely lost my head all the time, I’d have a bunch of kids by now!  You don’t know how often I just want to skip that condom . . . But times being what they are, I save condomless sex for long-term, committed relationships.

        4. Buck25

          I think I measure the emotional intimacy before sex. Just like it’s difficult for women to understand how strong the sexual urge is in men, men may not get just how wide open (pun intended) a woman may be during sex. Not just physically, and not all women. but some. And it’s not the sort of thing you open up and snap shut for a week or so, and then open back up again.

          S.,

          I didn’t want to let that comment go unacknowledged here. Yes! And you’re right, that level of vulnerability in a woman IS hard for a man to understand, because we don’t (I would argue we can’t, really) experience life in feelings the way most women do. Emotional vulnerability is hard for most of us men. In our driven, hard-knocks, competitive world of action, the stronger we become, the harder it becomes to peel back our protective emotional calluses and open our own hearts, even a crack… and yet, that’s the only way we can begin to touch that vulnerable world of feelings that is your world. That’s a pity, because I think that kind of intimacy, those momentary glimpses into a depth of emotion and feeling that we mostly lack within ourselves,

          may be a woman’s most beautiful gift to us, if she trusts us enough to give it, and we can trust her enough to let down our guard and receive it. That’s what real intimacy is. I think many women know that intuitively. Most of us men do not. Maybe that’s why it’s really such a rare thing to find, for you and for us. I’ve had one woman in all my life I’ve had that level of complete (physically, sexually, emotionally) intimacy with with, after three marriages and I don’t know how many relationships. It was so incredibly, amazingly beautiful… and so far, I’ve never quite found that again…but I sure wish I could, just one last time…

          Thanks, S. for sharing that thought.  Some of us do understand that, however imperfectly; we’re not always good at showing it, though.

        5. S.

          Thank you Buck, for highlighting that.  And D_M for inquiring.  There are some really thoughtful comments here that I appreciate. Frank and honest.  It’s difficult to try put yourself in another person’s skin.

          that level of vulnerability in a woman IS hard for a man to understand, because we don’t (I would argue we can’t, really) experience life in feelings the way most women do.

          It’s a moment of vulnerability on many levels.  To allow someone into your body.  The weight of that, when I said wide-open, I meant physically as well. And to want all of that. To want to be able to be vulnerable, to want everything it all means.  I personally love it.  I can’t lie.  I love being in a relationship where I can relax and let go and yes, that for that time there is no intimacy check. I can be me in all my glory. Sure, there may be other issues, but it’s so good when me feeling comfortable about being vulnerable isn’t one of them.

          I too, have only experienced it in all those levels once.  And I want to say yeah, isn’t that what we are all looking for? But I can’t say that because I know we are all looking for different things.  And even those who have experienced it, briefly or long-term, don’t necessarily expect it again.

          As a woman, I see your point of what we can give to men. I used to be frustrated by this.  It’s what I also wanted someone to give to me.  It wasn’t always easy for me to be centered and grounded in my femininity.  I had to work a long time on it. I learned I can give that gift to myself as well and that I had to.  Still, I wanted (and still want) to meet someone who has done the work on himself too. To be better at understanding a woman, even just a little bit more than the average guy. Masculinity isn’t just one thing. Not just alpha, beta, or omega.  Maybe for some, but it doesn’t have to be.  There are so many points to exist on on the continuum.

          That said, sigh, I realize that many men I will meet will not have done this work. Not their fault.  We in society grind vulnerability out of men daily as you said.  Women, too, but men more so. So I’m not frustrated anymore, but compassionate.  Because I love men.  I’m not angry at them at all.  I sense what they are reaching for, though it can get so jumbled and confusing to see it clearly sometimes in words.  But you’re right.  Empathy and intuition are things I’ve really honed in my dating and non-dating life.  We don’t talk about empathy and intuition on this blog often but we should.  Having that for the opposite sex, really trying to see things from their eyes for more than half a second, makes such a difference.

          It was so incredibly, amazingly beautiful… and so far, I’ve never quite found that again…but I sure wish I could, just one last time…

          I hope you find it one last time too.  I know I will, though I may be in my 60s when it happens!  That just means I’ll never give up looking. 😀  I don’t expect it tomorrow, but I’m not giving up on it, either.

      4. 21.1.4
        Lisa

        I have never asked a man about his numbers, because I don’t care, it would not change who he is now to me in anyway, his past is his past.  So long as he has not done anything illegal, and is disease free that’s all I need to know.   I am certainly older than the hook up culture. I have only had a man ask for my numbers maybe twice in my dating life, and I did not answer.    If a man needs to know my numbers then he’s not the man for me.   So if he asks, I don’t answer, and if he persists I move on.  That sends the message to me of who he really is. I don’t want to be with a man who judges a woman on her numbers or calls her a “slut.”   So he’s not the one for me.    I think if that number matters to a man so much, it’s almost always a sign of his deep insecurities.   My number actually is quite low and I think most of the men asking would be fine with it, but the point is that they are asking and to me that says something about their character that I don’t appreciate.  If a man is secure in his “manhood” and himself, then the number of partners, or what a woman has done in her past should not be “soul crushing” did you really just say that?   In this day and age women enjoy sex just as much as men do.  In fact women have always enjoyed sex just as much as men do, society just taught them to not express it, now they are.    Trying to convince a man that she is a special snowflake when it comes to chastity, what? Huh?   Who the freak says that, did I fall asleep and wake up in 1950, come on now.    I do agree if a person is a virgin, man or woman that should be shared with potential sex partners, but beyond that, who cares, what difference does it make?    Would you be honet about your numbers to a woman, would you expect she would judge you if they were high?  Dude!  And to the woman you reference in the scenario above did you ever think, that maybe she had changed?  How did she bury her sexual past, did he ask her about it?  Are you the same person you were in college?    Did you do things you regret and would not do now?

        1. Jeremy

          The soul crushing part wasn’t about what she had done in the past.  It was about what she wasn’t doing with the man who married her, who gave everything for her.  And yes, in such a situation, soul crushing is very much the right phrase.

        2. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          The soul crushing part wasn’t about what she had done in the past. It would be soul crushing for a woman to discover a tape like this with her husband in it, particularly if she’s not into group sex. Those are images you can’t get out of your head, and she may not be able to get beyond it. One’s sexual past should stay in the past. 

      5. 21.1.5
        Emily, the original

        Yag,

        There was a thread over on the TRP subreddit that was re-posted from another subreddit where a man learned that the prude he thought he married was actually a slut when she was younger. He assumed that she did not like sex when she refused to do oral and various sex positions with him.  His world was rocked when he discovered a video tape that showed her in a gang bang doing those things and asking for more (why anyone would kept this kind of evidence is beyond me, but people keep all kinds of things as trophies).  The guy was clearly devastated because he was asking for advice on how to proceed legally. His wife had agreed to do those things after he confronted her with the video tape, but he knew that it was not a case of she did not want to do those things, she did not want to do those things with him. She wasn’t that into him. If she’s saying no to sexual acts that are considered to be “normal” with him, she wasn’t enjoying sex with him.

        1. Lisa

          Or maybe she never enjoyed those sex acts with those men to begin with?    Maybe she was peer pressured, maybe she was young and stupid.   There are many things I have done in my past that I would never do again.

        2. Emily, the original

          Lisa,

          Or maybe she never enjoyed those sex acts with those men to begin with?    Maybe she was peer pressured, maybe she was young and stupid.   There are many things I have done in my past that I would never do again.

          Yes, very true. It’s called being young and figuring out who you are. 

      6. 21.1.6
        Emily, the original

        YAG,

        If a woman sets about attempting to convince a man that she is a special snowflake when it comes to chastity, she better be a special snowflake;

        These “special snowflake” comments are like something out of the 1950s. If she’s enjoying something sexually with you, yes, she’s done it with someone else. If she’s particularly skilled at something, where do you think she learned it?

      7. 21.1.7
        KK

        Lol, Yag!

        You’re killing me with your double standards. You have criticized your ex on here for being upset about your past man whoring. But it’s completely understandable when a MAN gets upset about his spouse’s past. Because well, MEN experience soul crushing depression when they find out there wife isn’t a “special snowflake”. But… if I were to guess, I’m betting you brag about your conquests expecting admiration for your supposed studliness. Nope. Doesn’t work that way. Women have feelings too. Some care about your past. Some don’t. But no one that cares about you wants to hear about your past escapades.

        And another thing… There’s no such thing as a special snowflake. We are human beings, all flawed, most doing the best that we can. I’m confident you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a woman that was married for years as her only sexual experience and one that slept around most of her life.

         

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          The soul crushing that this man experienced was not because his wife had a past, but because she chose to bury it.  It was a past in which she performed the acts he desired on other men, but refused to perform on him.  To use a manosphere term, that is when he learned that he was beta bux.  No man wants to be beta bux.

          The special snowflake comment pertains to making a man wait. When a woman makes a man wait without mentioning anything else, he assumes that she is that way with all men. To discover down the road that the woman who made him wait jumped into bed quickly with many men before meeting him makes him feel like a chump. In essence, he cut her slack because he assumed that there is no pushing the subject.  She was in essence a special snowflake that needed to receive special treatment.  I do not understand why this reality is so difficult for women to understand.  It has nothing to do with a 50s mindset.

          By the way, my ex was not angel.  She had her share of one-night stands.  I was just less of an angel by a significant margin.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          YAG, you are unusually interested in the length of time it takes to have sex – both for you and in comparison to other men. I went out with 300 women and never spent one second thinking about this. It may be worth considering your relationship to this issue rather than coming to sweeping and faulty conclusions.

          Ex: When a woman says, “I won’t sleep with you now,” the most likely scenario is that she likes you, she’s made mistakes in the past and doesn’t want to repeat them. Period.

          To make this into a referendum on your desirability and a judgment about her choice to respect herself enough to say no is self-defeating. It means you think your version of events (If she were more into me, she’d fuck me. I must be a loser beta chump) is more accurate than hers. In your world, if women aren’t dropping their panties on Dates 1-3, you’re a sucker. In my world, if women ARE doing that, they’re the suckers for hopping into bed with non-committal men. Can’t you see that you’re literally missing out on EVERY woman with the self-esteem and wherewithal to put sex AFTER commitment?

          Essentially, you’re fishing in the shallow end and wondering why you’re not catching anything good. The explanation above should go a long way in explaining.

        3. Lisa

          @yetanotherguy, makes a man wait for what?  You mean that she does not want to have sex until marriage?   And of course if she had sex previously, but now decided she wants to wait that makes her what a fake, a fraud?  I don’t understand what you are saying.   “When a woman makes a man wait without mentioning anything else, he assumes she is that way with all men.”   You know what they say about people who assume?    Why would you assume that?  Maybe she thinks you are special and she wants to wait?  Maybe she has had negative experiences with moving too fast with other men, and she sees you as someone she really wants to spend her life with, so she wants to wait.   Who is asking for special treatment?    If you did not have this double standard you would not care, and that’s why this is 1950s BS.  You are still judging a person by their past, or how many men they have been with, what they have done with other men, how many times, who the heck cares?  She’s with you now right?  Why does her past matter so much to you?

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Lisa

          Maybe she thinks you are special and she wants to wait? 

          Oh, I get it.  It is just that women cannot see the male side of this equation.  Remember, women have always been the gatekeepers to sex, and there is not a man much past the age of puberty who has not been strung along by at least one woman with whom he wanted to be more than friends.  Just as women do not wish to be used for sex, men do not wish to be used for provisioning.  Why is it that woman cannot understand that that is a very real concern men have while dating? Women act like there are no bad women, only bad men who are players and cads.  I can assure you that women in their fifties still attempt to play games with guys in whom they are not interested, but who have the means by which to treat them well.  Can you not see why a guy would walk when a woman makes him wait, but did not make men wait in the past knowing that information? Can you say, “deja vu?” Are guys not allowed to erect defenses against being used for provisioning?  If you do not believe that women use men in this way, I will see if I can dig up old text messages from a few sexies on standby.  It is enlightening to have a woman make a booty text to see if she can come over after a man drops her off from an expensive date.  A man never looks at women the same way after that experience. If you believe that women do not pull this stunt, you are naive.  You may not behave this way, but enough women do that a man needs to careful the ensure that he is not being used for provisioning in much the same way as a woman has to be careful that she is not being used for sex.

           

        5. Nissa

          YAG, I can’t speak for everyone, but I tend to think that 1) most of us like to think that we are nice, non user people; 2) most of us assume that other people are like us (and therefore non users also 3) even if women have been hurt, they are trying to give people the benefit of the doubt (because if she isn’t, you’ll see her as a man hating feminist bitch and won’t be dating her anyway).

          Women do understand that no one likes to be used, for provisioning or any other purpose – of course. But do women expect men to know their own minds, to offer what they are willing to offer and not more? YES. If a man is offering more than he wants to offer and then gets angry, and blames the woman – he is failing to take responsibility for his own actions and choices.

          As a woman who is not having sex with her dates, I understand it when a man doesn’t want to date me again, even though it is not my preference. This does not make the guy, a bad guy. He’s a guy who is not a match for me, who has different priorities. No hate, no anger, no big deal. It’s capitalism in action. If a man cho0ses to date me and finds ways for us to have dates without spending much money, it makes me respect him more, not less, because he’s not being indiscriminate. He is protecting himself in a valid way, assuming that he is still offering his self – being open, being himself, sharing his hopes and dreams.

          I don’t think anyone is telling you that those things never happen. I do think people here are telling you, you don’t have to keep having that experience, if you offer only what you are willing to offer without resentment. If you do that, even if you don’t get the desired result, you won’t feel used or that someone took advantage, because everything you offered was genuinely a gift.

        6. Tron Swanson

          Evan,

          I have a feeling that, on this issue, you’re the exception, and YAG is the rule. Men generally care about how long it takes to get sex.

          I’m most assuredly a beta, and I’m sure that most women would describe me as a loser, but I have strict rules about this stuff. I’ve never wasted a cent on the scam known as “dating,” and if a woman says no to sex just once, I next her. I keep hearing that women want a nice guy with a backbone…but, apparently, that backbone needs to vanish whenever it’s convenient for women.

          Now, I’m an extreme example, and I admit that. But what about average guys? You say that, by making certain demands, men will miss out on women with self-esteem. Whereas if men make demands, you imply that it isn’t about self-esteem, we’re just being unreasonable. Why aren’t men allowed to utilize a sexual strategy that prioritizes what we care about? Why do we have to submit to a sexual strategy that benefits women and harms us?

          I do think that men are hypocritical about sex. You can’t complain about women not being sexual enough…and then get mad if a woman has a colorful sexual history. It just isn’t logical. That seems to bother men on a primal level…but it’s never bothered me. Deception, however, is another matter entirely. I think that both genders behave in certain ways based on attraction. I’ve known women who said they never did X or would never do Y…but, for the right guy, they did, and would. I’ve seen it more times than I can count. It’s disappointing, finding out that you’re not the type of guy that most women will break their rules for. (Emphasis on “most.” I’ve sometimes been on the other side, hooking up with women who were stringing other men along, using them, or telling men that they didn’t do something, even though they did it with me last night.)

          Porn definitely helps in dealing with women. Without it, you feel a little more desperate, a little more easily-manipulated. It’s basically a poor man’s version of options. If you have to walk away, it helps.

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          Tron,

          Not to be self-aggrandizing, but you’re right. I AM the exception. But you have to remember my job:

          Help women choose better men. Nicer men. More selfless men. More secure men. More commitment oriented men. Men, frankly, like me.

          I honestly don’t mean to turn this into a competition – you have every right to live your life as you see fit – but if I’m telling women to hold out for men more like me, while you and YAG carry on with your insecure fears that you’re a Beta Bux instead of an Alpha Fucks, what exactly is the point of the dialogue? What’s the takeaway for women? Guys like Tron and YAG exist? We know. You’re everywhere. I’m telling women to demand more from their men – and, at the same time – letting them know that secure, confident men may also have a colorful sexual history (myself included) and that you can’t judge. If it’s not clear, I’m a dating moderate who listens to men complain about women and women complain about men – and tries to tell both sides how to make better choices that lead to lasting love. If you don’t want to find love, if you’re not a fan of women or sympathetic to their needs, if you want to go your own way… why keep coming back?

          Dating isn’t a scam. It’s a process where men who want to get married follow their sexual attraction to get laid, and, in the process of trying to get laid, discover that there are, indeed, some pretty amazing women out there. Again, I don’t blame you for trying to move fast. I blame you for your false beliefs that if you don’t get your way, you’re a sucker. That’s childlike, Trumpian behavior. Date a woman for a month, go around the bases, and, by that point, you should both be able to figure out if being boyfriend/girlfriend and having sex is worth it. Put sex first, and, well, you end up with a site like this for women who are sick of men using them.

        8. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Oh, I get it.  It is just that women cannot see the male side of this equation.  Remember, women have always been the gatekeepers to sex,

          Why don’t you worry about the part of a woman’s sexual past that really matters — not how many guys she’s been with, not how quickly she hooked up with them but how much she liked the sex with them. The guy who rocked her world sexually (and there’s usually only one or at most two), the man who set a sexual standard, poses a much bigger threat than a bunch of randos whose names she can’t even remember. 

        9. Lisa

          In reading some of the comments made by men, I can see why they ended up in sexless, or low sex marriages.   The problem is that they judge a woman for her past.  If a woman has had sex with multiple men, or done freaky things with men before she met him, then he does not want that woman, she’s a slut to him, and it hurts  his ego.   A woman who has a sexual past like this is more likely than not a woman that enjoys sex.  She is a woman, not afraid to express her sexuality, who will initiate sex, and pretty much do whatever her partner desires.   But instead of marrying the woman described above they marry a woman with a minimal sexual past, or one that is less “freaky” or assertive in bed, and then they cannot figure out why she does not want to have sex all that often, is not freaky, and has low drive and then they are happy.  Men like to operate under this delusion that they are the only one, and that she has only ever done X with them.  Often times that is not a delusion when they date the second woman I described.  But if a man wants a woman that is freaky, into sex, and has a high drive, he is going to have to in almost every case marry the woman who has a sexual past that may make him uncomfortable.  You can’t have it both ways.

        10. Tron Swanson

          Evan,

          Honestly, in our current environment, what would “better men” even look like? Men already put up with a litany of ridiculous demands, trying to merge our straitjacket-like “traditional gender role” with women’s constantly-changing modern expectations. We pursue, pay, raise other men’s children, risk divorce and financial ruin, and routinely, voluntarily interact with a gender whose members could destroy our lives with one accusation. And you’re saying that isn’t enough? If women made ten percent of that effort, and took ten percent of that risk, I’d die of a happiness overload.

          I don’t agree that there are lots of guys like myself and YAG. A growing number, to be sure, but the vast majority of men seem to be willing slaves, doing whatever it takes to achieve the mere possibility of sex.

          So, your position is that, if we don’t get our way, that doesn’t mean we’re suckers. Great. So, if I got my way with a woman–sex without commitment, and not spending much non-sexual time with her, even though she desperately wants it–does that mean she isn’t a sucker? Or is this yet another of those streets that only runs one way? You urge women to stand up for themselves, while telling men that it’s best to just go along with things.

        11. Evan Marc Katz

          “Honestly, in our current environment, what would “better men” even look like? Men already put up with a litany of ridiculous demands, trying to merge our straitjacket-like “traditional gender role” with women’s constantly-changing modern expectations. We pursue, pay, raise other men’s children, risk divorce and financial ruin, and routinely, voluntarily interact with a gender whose members could destroy our lives with one accusation. And you’re saying that isn’t enough? If women made ten percent of that effort, and took ten percent of that risk, I’d die of a happiness overload.”

          Instead, with your “us vs. them” worldview, you’ll die alone. Listen, I’m a realist. A moderate. I’m not on the side of men or women. I just find it difficult to hold online conversations with those who ONLY see their side. I GET your side. It has validity. But it is no more valid than the woman who, to be a better wife and mother, quits her lucrative career to invest in her family, only to find out that her husband is selfish, doesn’t help out at all with housework and childrearing, thinks his opinion matters more than her because he earns the money, loses his libido with her, and makes her feel trapped and lonely within her marriage. If she leaves, she risks splitting up her family and damaging the children, and since she hasn’t worked in years, doesn’t have a resume or current skills or connections to thrive as a single parent. If she gets the courage to leave her selfish husband, he lawyers up with more expensive counsel to make sure she gets the least money possible and punishes her for breaking up with him. Suddenly, she’s the primary caregiver for two kids, has limited job prospects and an insufficient amount to live on – not to mention the challenge of trying to date men as a working single mother.

          So that’s the other side of the story – just as harrowing as your side – just from a woman’s perspective. You’d be a lot more credible if you acknowledged it than if you thought it was only men who take risks in marriage. As it stands, your arguments are almost always easy to dismiss as one-sided, because, well, they only acknowledge one side: your own.

          “I don’t agree that there are lots of guys like myself and YAG. A growing number, to be sure, but the vast majority of men seem to be willing slaves, doing whatever it takes to achieve the mere possibility of sex.”

          Another thing I can barely understand. What guy marries for SEX? If you’re marrying for easy access to sex, you should get your head examined. And if you are one of those guys who thinks that’s the purpose of marriage, it only reveals how little you respect or value women in that you think that’s the primary value they bring to a relationship. It’s a unique value. It’s an important value. But sex is probably 5% of a good marriage and 95% of a bad one.

          “So, your position is that, if we don’t get our way, that doesn’t mean we’re suckers. Great. So, if I got my way with a woman–sex without commitment, and not spending much non-sexual time with her, even though she desperately wants it–does that mean she isn’t a sucker? Or is this yet another of those streets that only runs one way? You urge women to stand up for themselves, while telling men that it’s best to just go along with things.”

          For the umpteenth time, I’m in the business of helping people make better relationship choices. Such choices involve smart tradeoffs – for everyone. Not just men. Which, somehow, you still don’t seem to acknowledge after all your time reading this site and complaining about women. For people who want to get married, YES, a woman is a sucker if she is sleeping with a guy for six months and he’s not a boyfriend and has no desire to get married. And if a man wants to get married, and she’s stringing HIM along, milking him for free dinners and vacations, while keeping her options similarly open, he, too, is a sucker.

          To be part of a couple, you focus on what you give, not what you get. That’s something I never hear from the MGTOWs who seem to keep very close track of what they give, but have never met a giving woman. If that’s the case, that is ALL about you and the women you’ve chosen, as opposed to the nature of women or marriage itself. If you keep track of every penny you spend and every date it takes you to get laid compared to other men, you are pretty much setting yourself up for failure. However, if you’re a “nice guy with balls,” you can treat women well, follow up regularly, be sexually aggressive, and still be respectful of her desire to figure out your relationship status before sex. And a “cool girl with boundaries” should have no trouble reaching for the check, showing warmth, enthusiasm, appreciation for a man’s efforts, and “going around the bases” for that month before they mutually decide if a relationship is in the future. Everything in moderation, my friend. My way, everybody wins. Your way, everybody loses. I don’t know why you defend your position so hard. If there were a third party judge of this dialogue, you’d have lost by TKO in Round 2.

        12. Tron Swanson

          Evan,

          Actually, I agree that marriage can be bad for women. I’ve seen far too many women trapped in bad situations, and/or held hostage by antiquated gender roles. For men, the risk is legal and financial, and for women, it’s usually emotional (and sometimes physical). But I tend not to bring this up, for multiple reasons:

          1. The vast majority of women really, really, really want marriage. There’s no point in trying to convince someone that they shouldn’t want something they want. I’ve had several women ditch flesh-and-blood me in favor of the mere idea/hope of marriage. If they believe it’s equally dangerous for them, they sure aren’t acting like it.

          2. It’s one thing to say that it can be risky for either gender; it’s quite another to say it’s equally risky, or that the types of risks are equally bad. If I had a son and a daughter, I’d worry less for my daughter in this area, because our current society is geared toward women. A woman can get away from a man much more easily than a man can get away from a woman.

          3. Though I believe marriage can be bad for women, it’s hard to respect the alleged seriousness of some of the claims that are made, as the “oh, marriage can be bad for women, too” argument primarily gets trotted out when…men complain about marriage, and some false equivalency is needed. Women simply don’t warn each other not to get married like men do. There’s no MGTOW equivalent among women. And don’t talk to me about feminists – the vast majority of them are married or will get married, only a tiny number of feminists are anti-marriage.

          You may be a moderate, Evan, but our surroundings are rarely moderate. If you’d been doing this in the 1950s, I’d hope you would have stopped fence-straddling and said, “No, at the moment, women definitely have it worse.” And in 2018, well, I’d hope you could see that the opposite is now true.

          Finally, if you don’t think that men marry for sex, I don’t know what to tell you. Just…wow. Of the men I know who have married, all of them have told me (in different ways) that they’re tired of dating/chasing, and ready for something “guaranteed” or “easier” or “automatic”. I wonder what they’re talking about…emotional fulfillment, maybe?

        13. Evan Marc Katz

          Sorry to interrupt your narrative. I know facts don’t change your feelings, but here’s a piece on the Divorce Gap. It states that contrary to what you believe, men far better post divorce than women. I know that’s like telling you 2+2=5, but well, that’s what happens when you attach yourself and identity to a false narrative. Quote:

          “Despite the common perception that women make out better than men in divorce proceedings, women who worked before, during, or after their marriages see a 20 percent decline in income when their marriages end, according to Stephen Jenkins, a professor at the London School of Economics. His research found that men, meanwhile, tend to see their incomes rise more than 30 percent post-divorce. Meanwhile, the poverty rate for separated women is 27 percent, nearly triple the figure for separated men.”

          So, my friend, Tron, there’s no other way to put it, but you’re not correct. Men don’t have it worse. That is what you believe. That is what everyone around you believes. But it is not true, any more than it’s true than 2+2=5. That’s why I don’t indulge angry men on here; you’re entitled to a certain level of frustration or fear; you’re not entitled to your own facts about the world.

          Finally, if you’re surrounded by men who married for sex, I guess I traffic in highly different circles than you. If sex is that accessible (as both women and men say it is in this Tinder/text/hookup/MGOTW world), why would ANYONE marry for sex? And who, in his right mind, thinks that tying your life to someone for easy access to sex is a good idea?! Anyone who does so is to blame for thinking, like a teenage boy, with his dick. I don’t have any sympathy, no more than I have sympathy for the woman who knowingly married a rich asshole who remains a rich asshole after they’re married.

        14. Tron Swanson

          Evan,

          First and foremost, if that article is correct, someone needs to tell women. Divorce allegedly isn’t in their interests, but they still initiate it seventy percent of the time. That’s quite odd. Based on the info you just gave me, I looked around for feminist-written “Don’t get divorced, ladies, it’ll go horribly for you!” articles, but I’ve found a bunch of empowering, “He owes you, take him for all he’s worth!” stuff, instead. You’d better start warning women about this danger, my friend, because no one else seems to be. But that’s just a coincidence, I’m sure.

          Now, I won’t argue statistics with you. Maybe this article is right. Maybe it’s misleading, just as “married men are happier” is misleading (only men whose marriages are still together are polled–men whose marriages failed, well, they aren’t asked if marriage made them happier). I can certainly think of reasons why men would bounce back better than women, and they have nothing to do with women somehow having it worse.

          But, like you, I’m all about reality, and reality will bear out which of us is right. If marriage really is awesome and safe for men, well, I’d expect to see more men getting married, in the future. I’ll be revealed as a lone voice, and countless men will make marriage trendy, again. The marriage rate won’t continue to decline. We surely won’t go through what Japan has, or what Britain is starting to (lowest level of opposite-sex marriage since they started keeping records). Alternately, if I’m right, marriage will continue to decline, as masses of men look at a combination of cold, hard data and the experiences of men they know. Your clients will be forced to deal with a shrinking pool of marriage-willing men (and I’m guessing that pool is pretty small to begin with, given that your clients tend to be higher-earning, as I understand it).

          If one of us is in a bubble, it’s more likely to be you, based on class. I have a feeling that, economically, I’m much more average, and thus more predictive, in certain ways. But time will tell.

      8. 21.1.8
        Lisa

        @jeremy but the husband is being crushed for no reason.  As I said earlier, are there things that you did when you were younger that you don’t do now?  Things maybe that you liked then, or did due to peer pressure that you don’t or would never do now.  Say getting wasted every weekend and forgetting what you did?    Can you see how maybe that was fun in college but it is not something that is fun now?  Do you maybe see that she was pushed into that video and did not want to do it,did not enjoy it at all?   See what the husband did was throw a hissy fit, because he was jealous of her doing something else when she was younger, but not doing it with him, so she did it with him, and likely did not enjoy it.    But hey if it makes his ego feels better, that’s all that matters right?

  21. 22
    D_M

    Come on you’ll, don’t go there. By now it should be quite clear that a certain member has a touchy relationship with a woman’s history. I’m sure we all have varying degrees of acceptability, but I have to admit, a tape would be rough. I don’t know if I could stomach seeing the missus all sprawled out on the big screen. My advice is to burn the tapes before you move on.

    1. 22.1
      Lisa

      But what a lot of people seem to be presuming is that making that tape is something she enjoyed or wanted to do. I would guess that it is something she is embarassed of, a part of her past that she would like to forget and never do again.  She was young, she felt pressured etc.  The men are saying “Oh she did a gang bang on video, that must mean she likes that stuff, that she was doing in the video, why is’nt she doing that with me?”  Instead of saying, wow maybe she did not want to do that, maybe she’s really embarassed, maybe it’s not really who she is.   The first thing they jump to is jealousy.  I am sorry but as a woman I am tired of these “sword” battles that men have with each other.   All that matters is who she is with now, and that is you.

      1. 22.1.1
        Buck25

        I would guess that it is something she is embarrassed of, a part of her past that she would like to forget and never do again, She was young, she felt pressured, etc.

        Lisa,

        That guess of yours presumes a lot. The idea that someone who did something she is , “embarrassed of”, and “would like to forget she ever did” would nonetheless keep a videotape of her “performance” as though it were some kind of a trophy, is not just a non sequitur; it’s so irrational as to be utterly ludicrous. Rationally speaking, that dog just won’t hunt, but you have flogged that hypothesis (absent any known fact  in the account that would even tend to support it) until there is not a scrap of hide or hair remaining on that dead horse’s bare bones. I think Occam’s Razor applies here, and the most likely explanation is the one that requires the fewest unsupported assumptions, which in this case is that she did what she did, with men who turned her on, married a man (for comfort/provisioning) who didn’t turn her on, and thus had no enthusiasm (in fact a positive distaste) for performing those same acts with him. The guy’s mistake was to marry her in the first place, of course, but I think it goes even deeper, to wit, a man who is not himself a prude, should never date a woman who is, past the first indication she is one. I’m not a prude, so there are few things that will make me drop a woman faster. There’s simply no point; there are plenty of other women who are not overly inhibited, religious fanatics,  insecure game players who fake a “make him wait til you get a ring!” style of prudery, or outright liars who think promising what they have neither the capacity or the intention to deliver is an ok way to obtain commitment. Incidentally, I don’t have a “3 date rule”, but after a month to six weeks of waiting, if I offer her exclusivity, and she’s not offering sex, then either she’s not that into me, or she’s just not my type, and either is an indication that it’s time to move on. I hardly think it unreasonable for any man to not date (or stop dating) a woman whose sexual preferences, libido, etc. are badly out of step with his own. To continue trying to make a relationship of something like that does a disservice to BOTH parties, IMHO. I did find interesting that you keep trying to rationalize the conduct of the woman in question as that of a “victim” of “unscrupulous men” rather than her own questionable judgement (but then for you, perhaps anything a woman does which even might be considered reprehensible just has to be the fault of men, somehow-woman always virtuous, men always villains in your worldview, perhaps?). Hardly the first time any of us have heard that particular meme here, in any case

         

        If a woman has had sex with multiple men, or done freaky things with men before she met him then he does not want that woman; she’s a slut to him and it hurts his ego.

        Lisa, perhaps I’m an outlier in this, but I don’t think that way, and frankly I don’t know any men who do. I see not particular advantage to a man in slut-shaming any woman; from the point of view of a mature, reasonable secure and rational man, that’s simply counterproductive. It frankly would take a pretty insecure, not very confident man, or perhaps a religious fanatic to think that way. In fact, the majority of the slut-shaming of women I have seen was done not by men, but by (surprise, surprise)other women. I can see how an insecure and rather prudish woman would see some perceived advantage to herself in shaming her more adventurous female counterparts into behavior more closely approximating her own; she might see it as lessening her own competitive disadvantage with most men, which I guess makes some sort of sense from such a woman’s POV (from my own POV it smacks of simply envy).

        1. S.

          The interesting thing about the tape woman? She and her husband had known one another and had possibly been married for seven years before he found the tape. I wonder about those years. That was the real relationship. He did want more from her sexually but he still stayed. He said he cared about her.  She loved him.  If her ‘prudery’ was such an issue, no he shouldn’t have married her in the first place and he certainly had good reason to leave once he realized it wasn’t changing. But he didn’t leave.

          There is something odd about the way he retells it. I do think there might be some trauma for her, but there is no way at all to tell for sure from his retelling.  And no sign of her trauma previously in their marriage.  His letter is about him.  She did these things with other men, but not him, when he had been so patient with her for so long.  It didn’t seem to be about her sexual conservativeness.  He would and was living with that. It was that that she hadn’t always been that conservative and was like that with him.  And she did lie to him and that’s simply wrong.

          I think she didn’t want to do certain things with him. But I think it’s less about him and more about the connotation she had with the other more adventurous (to her) sexual acts. She said they were degrading.  She calls herself a whore on the tape. She says that.  She clearly had a negative association with with those acts, if not in college, then certainly in the years later.  But up until the discovery of the tape she had shown attraction to her husband during the conservative sex she preferred.

          I have to make this clear. Once a person decides not to do something he or she probably won’t. It’s not about the other person. I think men think if a woman is attracted enough she will lose her earthly mind and do just about anything with him sexually.  I posit: not really.  It’s like the guy who gets a divorce and is done. And the woman he dates later thinks, but he married her and not me! It’s not about her.  He’s just done.  Also sometimes when a woman does lose her mind sexually that says more about her free-spiritedness of personality, not attraction to that particular man.  And yes, a free spirit is that way with everyone.

          One should choose wisely a personality that is compatible. The person they are in bed is the person they are.  This couple–their sex life hadn’t been going well for the husband for years.  Discovering the tape and the lie only highlighted what was already in place.

        2. Lisa

          @buck25 I find it interesting that you say that I was blaming men for her doing the sex tape?  Where?   I said she may have done something she regretting or felt peer pressured into doing it.  It is her fault for doing the tape, no one else’s.  But I can see how some women could be persuaded to do things they do not want to by peer pressure.  I also can see how people make decisions at say 22 that they would never make at 32. It is just the reality that we all grow with age and time.  Like I said who among us has not done something when we were younger that we regret?   I think you are hell bent on blaming the woman for this, but I suspect that if you polled most women, very few would say that they would make a gang bang video that they did not regret doing.  My point is we all make mistakes, but that does not mean we are currently that person.  I mean seriously, if you think she enjoyed make a gang bang take, you have serious issues.  Unless she was paid lots of money. Sure women make sex tapes with exes, but that is not a gang bang.  And again something you have not addressed is that people try things sexually they have never done before that they then realize they do not like.  So maybe she was not sure if she liked to give oral sex, so she tried it and did not like it.  Why is that so hard to accept?  It’s not like she did this video yesterday?   Did she keep a copy of the video, I am not so sure that it says that, just that he found it. But from my perspective I would keep it, not because I enjoyed watching it, but in case at some later date someone tried to blackmail me, or use the video.  There are many plausible explanations for this behavior, but yours is the least plausible and I don’t think as a man you have the same insight into why women do the things they do. You just don’t.

           

          Many many men see it that way.   If they did not, they would not care or ask about a woman’s sexual past as it would not matter one bit.

        3. Buck25

          I think you are hell bent on blaming the woman for this…

          Lisa,

          No, but I’m not about to absolve her of all responsibility for her own actions, either. Peer pressure or not, drunk or not, for that matter, paid or not, all of us are responsible for our own adult actions That specifically includes you, me, the woman in question or any other adult. And yes, I get that people change; you have, I have, presumably she did. None of which absolves us of the consequences. Like it or not, we own the decision (unless we were coerced) we own the act, and we own the consequences. Let’s say you drive drunk, and get caught. That DUI stays on your record, even if you never take another drink the rest of your life, right? You don’t get a mulligan or a “do over” on that. Now making a tape of a gang bang, on which you call yourself a whore (who knows, perhaps that was a fantasy of hers, at the time-I’ve heard stranger tales) isn’t a crime, Having experience, even a lot of it, is not a crime either (personally, I welcome a woman who has a lot of experience; I’m not stupid enough to think she got that good or that knowledgeable by some kind of magical osmosis. She got it by having sex with a good many men, maybe a lot of them. I’m good with that, provided, I’m fairly sure being exclusive with me (assuming I’m expected to be exclusive with her) is something she’s content with here and now. In no way am I “judging her for her past”. I don’t think I’d even judge a woman for having actually been a prostitute 20 years before, as long as (a) she didn’t claim to have had “only a few” partners before me, and (b) she was no longer engaging in her former profession. What I’m not OK with, is a woman in like circumstances telling me she’s only had ONE previous partner (this one apparently did say that, to her husband, and it was a flat out lie), behaving as if she has little to no experience (that is, in effect, living the same lie), and then keeping a tape of it which, when discovered, proves that she lied to me. It reminds me of the sorority girls in college who went through every guy in a fraternity house; then when one of them gets pinned or engaged to one of those same frat brothers, oh wow, instant,  unquestionable, retroactive virginity! I think not. That’s just plain hypocritical. We all make mistakes, we all change over time, but if we’re directly asked, I think honesty is the best policy, and that goes for BOTH genders. Look, Lisa, suppose a woman asked me if I ever cheated on my wife. The fact is, that while I never cheated on either my second or my third wife, I did cheat on the first one. Should I lie about that, if directly asked? I don’t think so, and I won’t, despite the fact that was 40+ years ago, and I’ve obviously had a change of values since, and wouldn’t even think of cheating now. Still, I did it, I own it, and no matter why I did it, I DON’T get to take it back. As for her being “possibly blackmailed with the tape”, how exactly would having a copy help her? If that happens, it’s going to be disclosed anyway, whether she kept a copy or not. Leads me to believe that she wasn’t all that regretful of what she had done, so long as no one found out. You can try to spin it however you choose, to make it fit your personal beliefs and narrative, but the fact is, keeping that tape was a very stupid decision, one which, at least on its face, looks like maybe the particular leopard hadn’t changed her spots as much as you’d like to believe she had. You think “she couldn’t have possible enjoyed a gang bang”? I’m not so sure, because I have heard a few women (not many, but a few), admit to having done pretty much just that, and remarking that they enjoyed it at the time they did it. In any case, she told an unequivocal, direct lie to her husband to begin with, and that part is blameworthy by any reasonable standard of conduct in and of itself. None of this excuses the guy in question for being an idiot in choosing her; he’s still an idiot. I don’t know about you, but I’m willing to bet most of the ladies here would be pretty upset if the found a tape of their husband, even years before they first met, with a group of his buddies, all taking turn with half-a-dozen hookers. Let’s ask them. How about it ladies, you all happy to forgive and forget, after watching that? Do chime in and let us know. Would you feel it’s all in the past, and no way are you going to judge him for doing that? I have just a tiny hunch that would not be the gut reaction for most of you.

      2. 22.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Buck25,

        Incidentally, I don’t have a “3 date rule”, but after a month to six weeks of waiting, if I offer her exclusivity, and she’s not offering sex, then either she’s not that into me, or she’s just not my type, and either is an indication that it’s time to move on. I hardly think it unreasonable for any man to not date (or stop dating) a woman whose sexual preferences, libido, etc. are badly out of step with his own. To continue trying to make a relationship of something like that does a disservice to BOTH parties, IMHO  I think this is totally reasonable. You don’t have some ridiculous N-rule, you will make an effort to let a woman know you are trying to get to know her as a person and are willing to date her exclusively while you see where things go …. Perfect. Ostensibly, it’s quite reasonable for sex to be on the table at that point (if you both are looking for a relationship). This should make her feel she’s not be used for sex and you not to feel like she’s taking advantage of the friendship/companionship/free dinners.

      3. 22.1.3
        Lisa

        @S it is also perplexing to me that the guy seemed to be fine all those years with the girl not doing those sexual acts, but only when he discovered she had done it with others did it really bother him.   I agree don’t marry someone thinking that the sex you are having will get better.  MANY men do that. I had a good male friend whose girlfriend would never give him blow jobs.  She had an experience where a man made her gag and degraded her.  She shared that with her partner and said from day one that she would never do that. He thought he could change her, he did not, and they ended up divorced two years later.

         

        I don’t think what the woman did in the tape was lying.    Did the partner specifically ask, did you ever engage in a gang bang?  Have you ever done X?   If not that’s not a lie.  Now I am all for the position that an omission can be a lie, but I don’t see that in this case.  Most of my partners including my fiance have never asked about my sexual past.  Not my numbers, what I did, who I was with.  Now there have been a few times that I have offered some things up, and he was fine with it.   That’s how I knew he was the one.   If your partner does not display an interest in your sexual past, then I don’t see a need to offer it up. If he cared he would ask you.  Her past clearly matters to this particular writer, which in itself is a problem.  But if it mattered he should have been more clear and direct in the questions that he asked her and earlier on.   If the person was arrested for a sexual act, has an STD, or was a porn star (actually making money) then that should be disclosed, other than that no.  I have made sex tapes with prior boyfriends, there are nude pics of me out there from spring break, years ago, etc.   Do I just offer this all up on the table for no reason?  No.  But I have a partner who loves me for me, not for my past. And it is very concerning to me that if he loves this woman as he says that he has not at least stopped to say maybe she was traumatized by what happened.  As you said all he can do is say me me me.  He cannot stop to see how her past may have hurt or effected her.  A man who loves her would, imo.  I am female and if I saw my partner in a video like that, I would be more concerned about how it effected him, than I would about how it effected me.   But that is of course because i know my fiance and know it would be out of his character to do something like that, so if he did there is a reason he did.

         

        I am not saying this about you.  But in generally why do men care so much about a woman’s past?  To me that shows extreme insecurity, which is why I don’t continue relationships with men like that.

        1. Fleurdl123

          Really, how do we know this story is credible?  It seems like a worst case scenario tall tale to me.  Some guy asking what kind of legal recourse he may have in this kind of situation?

          I don’t believe there is a tape at all, but it generates a lot of attention and debate by tapping into some/many men’s paranoia about getting played/cheated/deceived.

        2. Chris

          Yes, how do we know its credible? It could just be a story made up to stir debate.

          But I’ll switch genders to get across why many men feel he was “cheated” (for want of a better word) in this case. Say a woman meets a man who’s otherwise great but seems to have a lower than average libido. He’s not as interested in sex as she’d like. Lacking in passion and enthusiasm. Adequate, but barely. He says he’s only had one partner before so she figures he’s inexperienced. Perhaps he’ll learn, and he’s otherwise such a great guy she agrees to marry him.

          But then later she starts hearing credible stories about how he used to sleep around with many women and what a great, fantastic, passionate lover he was with them. She’d start to feel a bit cheated too I think.

        3. S.

          @Lisa

          A few things.  First, this couple is a hot mess. I did try to investigate to see if there was an update and found soon after he asked her to take a polygraph to see if she was attracted to him. And she did. I guess she passed?

          That did strain my credibility, but in the end, I went with it’s all so beyond everyday behavior it probably is all true. They both have issues.  I actually decided to stop commenting on them specifically because we’ll never know all that really went on with them.

          Second, the discussion it has sparked here is important because of what I said to Buck above.  Intuition and empathy.  It’s difficult to truly understand another person’s experience.  But it’s important to me to at least try.  I’ve never made a sex tape, but I try to understand why one might.  I don’t judge.  Just ’cause that’s not the thing I keep private, doesn’t mean I don’t have other things I keep private.

          Third and finally, I believe it’s important for women to try understand men’s fears if we want them to try and understand ours.  I said something above about trust and the trust it takes for a woman to open herself up to a man sexually.  I know men don’t necessarily experience sex that way, but I would want them, especially those I date, to try to understand the kind of trust I’m offering, that we have for me to be with them that way.  Does this make me insecure, that I need I want full trust with men I sleep with? Nope.

          In turn, women have to try and understand why this situation really pings as devastating for a man.  Why? His way of opening and trusting was believing her to be a certain type of person.  She said she’d only been with one man before. She lied about the one man. She didn’t deny lying when confronted. So now she’s a liar. I’d be upset if I found my husband lied to me about, well, anything.  We are again back to trust.  So he had been patient with her and he had been understanding.  He was only her second lover, so her reticence made sense to him.

          Now he sees her having sex with multiple men and seeming to enjoy it. First, that imagery is going to be plastered forever on his brain. To him, this is like two different women! Anyone would be upset seeing their spouse have sex with five different people in secession.  For him, he thought she was one woman and now he sees a completely different side of her that she has never shared with him.  Which woman is she?  Why hasn’t she shared this with him?  He is hurt and confused. Remember, we are getting this post from him 36 hours after discovery.  He’s still reeling.

          I understand that.  And despite the hot mess they are together, the last post I found they were still together.  Now it’s been four years since then so who the hell knows, but his last post wasn’t about divorcing her.  (Though some may argue they should divorce.)

          No one wants the trust they have painstakingly built and given destroyed.  Not a woman opening her heart and body to a man, not a man spending years being patient and denying his own needs for a woman.

          It’s difficult to put ourselves in another’s skin.  We can continue to say, ‘but what about this, that, and the other’.  Points are valid.  But in the end, I can say, while I don’t always understand how men feel, I still respect their feelings. They are different than mine, but still valid. And with my own future man, I will do my best not to betray his trust. We may need to discuss trust and agree on what that is, but I believe with open communication and our general honesty with one another, we’ll be able to maintain the faith we have in one another.

          That’s all I’ve got on this one, but if that’s the lesson I’ve learned from Gangbang Tape 101, it’s a good one.

  22. 23
    Stacy

    Well, my man is 38 and so far so good.*crossing fingers*

    However, I do not like the taking forever bit. Sorry but I have stuff to do. I love sex but after 20 minutes (and even that’s pushing it. Give me a rigorous, passionate, and sometimes very freaky 10 mins. and I’m good) and after me having an orgasm, it no longer feels good.

    Men, please understand that a penis only feels good for so long (and that is if there is clitoral stimulation at the same time for most women). Else, I will start to think about what I am having for dinner and what bills need to be paid. Just being honest.

     

    1. 23.1
      D_M

      Stacy,

      So what sorts of strategies are you researching to reduce performance time?

    2. 23.2
      S.

      Twenty minutes? Wow. You mean twenty minutes of penetration or twenty minutes from kiss to orgasm, the entire session?

      1. 23.2.1
        Stacy

        @S

        I PREFER 20 minutes of everything included (and that’s on a good day). 20 minutes in sex world is a long time.lol

        1. S.

          @Stacy

          Thanks! Very informativee. Sometimes 20 minutes for the whole thing, sometimes I just want 20 minutes of foreplay. As I said in other comments, orgasm doesn’t have to happen in every encounter.  We do have lives, lol.

          For the “near-epileptic, eye rolling, multi-orgasmic” experience Semi described above? I’d need more than twenty minutes.  But people vary.  And it’s good to know that everyone is different.  And again, I don’t need that every time.

          This is why couples need to talk so both parties know what each other wants.  Open communication is so important.

           

        2. Buck25

          I PREFER 20 minutes of everything included(and that’s on a good day). 20 minutes in the sex world is a long time.lol

          Stacy,

          Seriously?? @ 20 minutes for EVERYTHING?? I can see 15-20 minutes for actual vaginal intercourse( I’m not sure why a bit more would actually hurt, if you’re adequately turned on and/or having multiple orgasms, etc.), but EVERYTHING??? Damn, you younger people have really busy lives these days! I don’t remember it being quite so rushed. Then again, you know how it is with us older folks; we still can do what we used to do all night, but it takes a little longer than it used to. Besides, I’ve found it does take a lot of post-menopausal women longer to get warmed up… but then, as the old song goes, ” Darlin’ don’t say a word; I’ve already heard, what your body’s sayin’ to mine. If you need all night, it’s alright…honey, I’ve got time!”

          Look on the bright side; see what you have to look forward to, when you grow up, lol!

        3. Emily, the original

          Buckster25,

          ” Darlin’ don’t say a word; I’ve already heard, what your body’s sayin’ to mine. If you need all night, it’s alright…honey, I’ve got time!”

          Sometimes if it’s too slow, the whole thing feels like a big production. Particularly if a man is reading a woman’s body like a road map so she knows where the car is going ahead of time … Point A (mouth), Point B (boobs) … You can imagine the rest. 

    3. 23.3
      Lisa

      Exactly, 20 minutes of penetration is far too long for most women. It hurts, and at that point I am starting to make a mental to do list.  Men are under this impression (mostly because of porn) that they are supposed to last forever, that makes them good in bed, when that is not true in almost every case.   I wonder does your man watch a lot of porn and masturbate?  He may be suffering from delayed ejaculation, meaning he cannot orgasm more quickly even if he wanted to.

      1. 23.3.1
        Stacy

        Good point Lisa (about the porn influence).

      2. 23.3.2
        Buck25

        @ Lisa,

        Silly me. I thought in this enlightened age, everyone knew better than to use porn as a how-to manual. If there are any of the guys reading this who think otherwise, please, don’t try some of the unusual things you see there with your woman. Seriously, just…don’t. Some of what looks erotic on screen, really isn’t in real life, and some of those positions, etc, will likely be painful to (and can actually injure), you, your partner or both. And no, being a true “sixty minute man”, is NOT desirable to most women. Maybe for a tiny handful who have a tendency to multiple vaginal (as internal G-spot) orgasms, and the like, and need a lot of direct stimulation to get there; there are not many of them, and most men could go a lifetime without ever encountering one. Lisa isn’t right on everything, but she is on this point. So take this from a male POV, guys, that’s an ability you DO NOT need to develop; in fact, it’s a good way to develop delayed ejaculation (DE), and you won’t like it if you get it; it’s roughly the male equivalent of female anorgasmia. Another way to get that (other than porn), is concentrating too much on your partner (yes, you can overdo that). Remember, guys, you are responsible for doing your best to meet your partner’s needs, BUT, you are NOT responsible for her orgasm-SHE is! She in turn, is NOT responsible for YOUR orgasm either-YOU are!

        1. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          Remember, guys, you are responsible for doing your best to meet your partner’s needs, BUT, you are NOT responsible for her orgasm-SHE is! She in turn, is NOT responsible for YOUR orgasm either-YOU are!

          Yep. Totally agree. If she can’t show you how to get her there or … do things to herself to get herself there … your job is done! And overly focusing on getting the other person off usually has the opposite effect. As for guys, despite what’s reported in this post, it’s usually ridiculously, enviably easy for them to get off. 

      3. 23.3.3
        Shaukat

        I suspect the reason that the woman did not want to do those things with her husband was because he was a judgmental whiny jerk.

        That’s pure conjecture and speculation on your part. She may have a good reason for no longer enjoying those sex acts (if she ever did) but you have no basis for making the claim that her husband turned her off with his judgments.

        1. Lisa

          Absolutely it’s conjecture.  But no more so than anybody else’s comments as they are all pure conjecture.

      4. 23.3.4
        Shaukat

        Absolutely it’s conjecture.  But no more so than anybody else’s comments as they are all pure conjecture.

        No, there are reasonable and unreasonable inferences that we can draw from the available evidence and facts, and then there are also baseless statements. The three most likely scenarios to explain her behavior:

        1). She was emotionally/mentally unstable at the time of the video, did not really enjoy the acts, or no longer enjoys such acts, and does not want to relive certain traumas and hence has avoided such acts with her husband;

        2). She is manipulative and cynical, hence decided to marry a man she is not attracted to at all in exchange for comfort/provision;

        3). She has some bizarre Madonna/Whore complex where she enjoys such acts with men she dates but not with someone with the title of husband (least likely imo).

        All those scenarios are somewhat reasonable based on the available evidence of her videotape and her behavior with her husband. However, we know nothing about him and whether he ever judged or denigrated her for her sexual choices, nor do we know if he’s some self-righteous prude, based on any of her statements. It’s not reasonable to infer that from the video or her actions, whereas it is reasonable to infer the three scenarios above.

        On a separate note, I can’t believe this thread has devolved into a discussion of a gang bang video, lol.

        1. Lisa

          I don’t think anyone can come to any reasonable conclusions without knowing the whole story. We only have his side of it so we really don’t know much at all. People tell stories based on how they experienced the situation but that does not necessarily mean it’s what really happened.  Ever watch the Affair on showtime? It shows the same event but told from three different people’s perspective. You would be amazed how differently they retell the story.  And of course we all see others stories through our own eyes.  You are seeing this from the perspective of a man, I as a woman. Based on the limited facts we have:

          1. The man cares far too much about his wives sexual past than anyone should.  People are focusing on the video and it’s shock value but he’s not upset she made a video, he’s upset because she performed sex acts with other men and not her.  This is childish.

          2. He is clearly passing judgment on her past behavior.  It changes the entire way he feels about her.  There is zero way he became a judgmental person in that day, he was likely to have been one their entire relationship.

           

          3. He was unwilling to respect his wives no. It does not matter why she did not want to do those acts with him just that she told him she did not. He was clearly angry, bitter and unwilling to respect her answer.

          4.  He’s selfish. If I found a video of my partner like that my first thought would be something must have been wrong that he did that. I know my partner today would never do that. So I would not approach him in an accusatory manor. I would ne concerned.  His first reaction is me me me.

          I think the entire point is why does he care?  Let’s suppose he knew about the video in advance for a second. First would he have continued the relationship or would he have been too disgusted to do so, if it’s the latter he’s judgmental. Or second if he knew about the video in advance would he just pressure her more to do acts she did not want to do because she did it with others?  There’s no way this guy comes out looking good.

           

          Can you imagine if your partner pestered you persistently to do something you had told her you would never do?  Would that make you want to do it more?  I of course come at this from my own experiences.  When I was in college I was in my share of wet t shirt contests. But I would never do that now. There are pictures.  So if my husband wants me to show my breasts in public because it’s his thing, and I refuse is it okay for him to say “but you did it in college.” No.  I have also made sex tapes with exes. There are some sexual acts I tried in them I did not like. So should I have to do them if my current partner wants to because I did with someone else?  There is a problem in this way of thinking. He’s not upset about the video he’s upset because she won’t do those things with him.  She just does not want to do those things with him.

           

          And your number 2 presumes she’s not attracted to him and that he is providing her comfort and provision. Because she won’t do certain sex acts or has a lower drive that means she’s not attracted to him? And what provisions? How do you know he’s the provider and not her?  You are making a sexist assumption.

           

          ,

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Shaukat,

          Add a number 4:  The wife married him because he had had all the attributes she (or any woman) wants in a husband despite the fact she wasn’t feeling it because people told her she would be crazy of she didn’t, that love grows over time, that there is more to a life long marriage than just chemistry, etc.

  23. 24
    Kenley

    @Jeremy,

    All we know about the couple YAG referenced is that the husband didn’t think his wife liked sex because she would not give him a blow job nor do other sexual acts he requested.   He then found a tape of her doing a gang bang.  Please help me understand how based on this tiny amount of information you came to the conclusion that this man gave and gave to his wife and all she did was use him.

    Please note that he did not say she wouldn’t have sex at all and he didn’t even complain about the frequency of sex.  Perhaps she thought he was satisfied with the type of sex she was willing to have with him.  So, the way I see it based on this limited information is an entitled man wants to know if he can divorce his wife because she did a gang bang in the past, but won’t suck his dick in the present.  So, basically that means that once a woman does a sexual act, she doesn’t have the right to say, mmm, I  tried it but didn’t like that so I’m not going to do it again.  And men wonder why women don’t feel comfortable disclosing their sexual history.

    I will say it again, this guy should have found a woman who wanted to do the things he wanted to do.  He should not have married her if he wasn’t satisfied with her sexually.

    1. 24.1
      Chis

      My impression of this is: in this case he thought his wife was sexually inexperienced. I even think she wasn’t honest with him. She certainly didn’t do anything to correct his belief. And far more than just being unwilling to give blowjobs or perform other acts, she was simply very unenthusiastic when it come to sex with him, and wouldn’t give him a clear reason for her lack of enthusiasm. Well he could put that down to her being inexperienced and consequently shy, but when he learnt the truth, you could see why, in this scenario, he felt cheated.

       

      1. 24.1.1
        Lisa

        @chris I agree with the two others she does not need to tell about her sexual past.  The man that asks is insecure, why does her past matter?

    2. 24.2
      Lisa

      “I will say it again, this guy should have found a woman who wanted to do the things he wanted to do.  He should not have married her if he wasn’t satisfied with her sexually.”  

      This is exactly correct, except he would have never married a woman who wanted to do the things that he wanted to do, which is seen by his reaction to the fact that she has done those things with other men.  See that’s the problem.  This man is trying to say he is angry, I call it “jealous” that certain sexual things were done with other men and not him.  But the reality is that he is upset that she did those things with other men, because he is judging her by her sexual past.   So let’s say she did tell him these things about herself, he would have never married or dated her.    He would have instead married and dated a woman that he felt was “chaste” in his mind, and whom of course would never do these things with him or anyone else.   These men have the Madonna/Whore complex and that is why they are ending up in sexless marriages.

      1. 24.2.1
        Shaukat

        This is exactly correct, except he would have never married a woman who wanted to do the things that he wanted to do, which is seen by his reaction to the fact that she has done those things with other men.  See that’s the problem.  This man is trying to say he is angry, I call it “jealous” that certain sexual things were done with other men and not him.

        Yeah, except he’s her husband. A woman shouldn’t marry a guy she isn’t comfortable engaging in all sorts of sexual acts with, provided that she doesn’t universally have a problem with such acts. Also, the type of men you’re referring to are a small minority of guys with a Mad Men style mentality, it doesn’t apply to me or anyone I know.

        I will also say this though, for those who are pointing to this video as evidence that the woman must have been a manipulative liar: the vast majority of sexually healthy, confident, and mentally/emotionally stable women don’t engage in gang bangs which they allow to be videotaped, at least not outside of the porn industry. I’ve met many women who really enjoy sex, even outside of a monogamous arrangement, who have never done this. 80% chance there was something ‘off’ with her at the time, and perhaps performing those acts trigger memories of the trauma. Wouldn’t be surprised if she has PTSD. If her husband couldn’t piece this together, the, in addition to being a beta chump, he’s also not very bright.

        1. Emily, the original

          I will also say this though, for those who are pointing to this video as evidence that the woman must have been a manipulative liar: the vast majority of sexually healthy, confident, and mentally/emotionally stable women don’t engage in gang bangs which they allow to be videotaped, at least not outside of the porn industry. I’ve met many women who really enjoy sex, even outside of a monogamous arrangement, who have never done this. 80% chance there was something ‘off’ with her at the time, and perhaps performing those acts trigger memories of the trauma. Wouldn’t be surprised if she has PTSD. If her husband couldn’t piece this together, the, in addition to being a beta chump, he’s also not very bright. Completely agree. What this guy is failing to realize is that it’s probably not something she actually enjoyed and maybe she blocked it out, but why keep the video? Wouldn’t you burn it? 

        2. Lisa

          Your second point is exactly what I was trying to say. Making a gang bang video is not likely something even the freakiest gal would do. So something was up and it seems like the guy could not even stop to consider that.

          But I don’t think that a woman or man should marry a person only if they are willing to engage in all types of sex acts with them.  If one person does not enjoy a particular act and they know that marriage does not mean they have to engage in it.  And one thing that’s super annoying and a turn off is when you have made clear to a man that you will not do X and they keep pestering you to do X.  I am the kind of person that will try anything once sexually, food, travel/advantage.  But if I have tried X and I know it’s painful and not enjoyable then leave me alone or find someone else. And there are things I have tried with my exes and did not like. So the fact that I did X with my college boyfriend and won’t do it with my husband is because I don’t like it not because I liked my ex more. It’s like saying I tried Indian food in college maybe a few times just to make sure I did not just have bad food the first time and I just don’t like it or or makes me sick. But my husband keeps saying no try it again come on!  Nope.

           

          So just because a woman has engaged in a sex act previously with an ex does not mean she liked it. For whatever reason the men are reading this to say she liked him better or somehow he’s not getting what the ex did when that’s not the case at all.

           

          This is why pre marital sex is so important.  If she won’t do X pre marriage you can bet she’s not doing it post marriage! But the men that marry women and think that are large in number. Marry a freak you are more likely to keep a freak. Marry a prude you will keep a prude.

           

        3. Chris

          Lisa, premarital sex may be important, but honesty is far more important. If a woman was promiscuous/sexually adventurous when younger, but her tastes have changed and she is now far more staid, then does she have an obligation to admit this to her fiance, rather than pretend she’s always been this way? If he finds out her actual past by himself, as I mentioned, then his first assumption is probably going to be that she’s simply not attracted to him.

        4. Emily, the original

          Chris,

           If a woman was promiscuous/sexually adventurous when younger, but her tastes have changed and she is now far more staid, then does she have an obligation to admit this to her fiance, rather than pretend she’s always been this way? Why does she have to reveal this? Should she also tell him she used to be into goth? Or liked hair bands in the 80s and spent a lot of time going to concerts? Or that she used to be into immature musicians until she herself matured? Are people not allowed to change and grow? (Granted, the fact that she kept the tape is completely bizarre. One does not ever want to see that kind of evidence of a partner’s past.) I’m in my 40s. I’m a completely different person than I was in my 20s, and I don’t feel I have to explain that to someone I may date seriously/marry. I never spent time in prison. I don’t have children I won’t claim. I’m not lying about having a communicable disease. What else does someone have the “right” to know about my past? 

        5. S.

          @Chris

          I agree with Emily.  She doesn’t have to tell him.  That said, if she knows there is evidence or if it’s small town and they will see her ex-lovers again she might want to get in front of it in case it gets revealed and not by her.

          The other thing is if he asks.  If he asks, it’s a difficult place to be in but I wouldn’t lie because then it becomes about the lie, not whatever happens.  This woman had told him she had only ever been with one guy before him.  That’s a big mistake when you keep a tape of you having sex with five men around.  And lies just hurt everyone because it affects trust.

          It’s tricky talking about ex-lovers. In this very thread Scott in comment 11 said he had performance issues because his partner talked about an ex-lover and he couldn’t get her comments out of his mind. His advice: Hint: don’t talk to your current partner about previous partners performance.

          So sometimes a person is damned if they talk about previous lovers, damned if they don’t.

          I would just say, everything isn’t about the man not being attractive to the woman. Men go straight to that but I hope one can see from these comments things go far deeper than that.  It’s possible, but that may not be what’s going on in this case.

        6. Buck25

          …but why keep the video? Wouldn’t you burn it?

          Granted, the fact that she kept that tape is completely bizarre. One does not ever want to see that kind of evidence of a partner’s past.

          @Emily,

          Precisely the point I tried to make in my reply to Lisa; keeping that tape doesn’t exactly imply that the activity depicted on same was anything she regretted; if anything, quite the contrary. We’ve all done some things, sexually and otherwise, that seemed like a good idea at the time, but we wouldn’t care to do them now, or share the memories(or the evidence) with our current partner. For an old fossil, I had a pretty interesting sex life in my younger days. I recall a certain R&R in Vietnam, that included a memorable night with 3 Vietnamese hookers in a Saigon cathouse, another with a “Donut Dolly”, and a couple with an older Air Force nurse who was the greatest freak in bed I’d encountered in my life at the time. (This despite having a wife waiting at home, and on that count alone, not exactly something to be proud of, in retrospect; but the sort of thing a young man does in a place where death will be breathing down his neck again a couple of days hence). If I had any film or pictures of any of it (I didn’t), I’d have burned them; not exactly my finest hour, or a memory I’d want to share with my wife, or any other intimate partner in the future, for that matter. Some of our past is best remembered for whatever lessons it taught us, and otherwise left alone.

        7. Emily, the original

          S.,

          The other thing is if he asks.  If he asks, it’s a difficult place to be in but I wouldn’t lie because then it becomes about the lie, not whatever happens. A man asking and then sulking over the answer is as ridiculous as the thread where the woman asked her boyfriend if she was as hot as Angelina Jolie. Don’t ask questions you don’t really want to know the answers to.

        8. S.

          @ Emily

          I don’t know if this husband asked.  But it does sound like he was patient and trying to work with what his wife wanted to do and what he wanted as well.  He may have asked, it may have come up in that context, doesn’t matter.  She said one guy before him.  Which clearly isn’t true.

          But your pointis well-made, don’t ask something you don’t really want the answer to.  It’s unclear in this discussion whether people want to know or not. I don’t think I care to know unless it’s somehow going to impact me or our current relationship.  Is there evidence in the Cloud?  Does someone have herpes and sent my guy a letter? Is there a child, is the footage about to break on TMZ?  Then yeah, I think being upfront is a nice courtesy.  Not required, but nice.  (Herpes notice is required since that’s a health risk.)

          I think it differs for men.  Like if a guy liked his ex-girl using a strap-on with him, but then refused to for me when I asked, it wouldn’t devastate me.  I’d be disappointed and confused, but I’d respect his no.  Same with oral sex or any other act.  Seeing it on screen is . . . difficult.  But I don’t think I’d change my whole view of who he is.  If he murdered someone years ago, yes.  But if I married him and accepted that oral sex was forever off the table (sniff!) then seeing him on video enjoying it with another woman seven years earlier would hurt (seeing your man have sex with another woman isn’t pleasant regardless of what they are doing) but I don’t think I’d be ready for divorce over it.

          I wouldn’t think, ‘he just doesn’t want to go down on me‘.  I’d think, ‘Something has radically changed in him from then to now.’ I’d be curious what that was, but I wouldn’t necessarily think it was about me.

          Now, if the tape was made last week, that’s a different story.  But that’s not the case here.  This was the past and sometimes the past should stay in the past unless there is a compelling reason it’s coming forth today.

        9. Chris

          S. people are getting hung up on specific acts she may or may not be willing to do, but what if the key is that she wasn’t very enthusiastic for sex with her husband. Passive, didn’t seem to enjoy it much, etc. And naturally he wasn’t happy about this (again, I’m guessing), but if he assumed she had always been this way, that she just had a low libido, he would reluctantly accept this is just the way she is.

          Her (supposedly) having a low partner count would confirm this in his mind. And then he finds evidence that she apparently used to enjoy sex a great deal, but just not with him now, would be devastating.

        10. Lisa

          I suspect the reason that the woman did not want to do those things with her husband was because he was a judgmental whiny jerk.

        11. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          If I had any film or pictures of any of it (I didn’t), I’d have burned them; not exactly my finest hour, or a memory I’d want to share with my wife, or any other intimate partner in the future, for that matter. Some of our past is best remembered for whatever lessons it taught us, and otherwise left alone. I’m of the mind that what happened in the past should stay in the past. What if you tell a current partner something you did and she’s completely put off by it? What if it’s something she can’t get out of her head? And I have to be honest … whenever a men starts talking about his past threesomes … I always assume he’s testing the waters to see how I respond and what I’d be down to do. And/or he’s bragging, and the whole conversation puts me off. 

  24. 25
    loubelle

    i was with my ex for 5 years. He is 36. he had erectile dysfunction from day we met. i stayed with him because i thought if i had ‘lady problems’ id hope he would stick around. however, the lack of intimacy as well as his defensiveness helped (as well as other things) to destroy the relationship. It wasnt the E.D it was his attitude and the pity me stance he took. I was trying to help and i tried to be compassionate and work on it with him, but it never worked. He took meds for it odd time. we must have had sex about 10 times in 5 year, a couple successful sessions thats it. it was awful. whilst i was supportive, i became very self conscious when usually im quite self assured and body confident. At the end of the relationship i was downtrodden and felt unattractive. He never complimented me and i always looked nice and always took care of myself. i understand alot about E.D, i researched for hours over the years. Please understand how it affects your partner who doesnt suffer with E.D, compliment them and make them feel attractive even if you cant ‘get it up’, it destroys them too. He was very self absorbed and played the victim constantly.He had two bad relationships where they both cheated and he said that was start of his problems (he lied alot so im not sure). though i never cheated on him, i was with him 5 years and he still had E.D. he said he didnt watch porn and he ‘said’ he wasnt gay. then he said he was demisexual after 4 year. if he was demisexual then he would have had no problem getting it up after 5 years lol. i suspect something is going on and not thinking im ‘ too hot for anyone not to get it up’ but i think he is gay and in the closet, he never seemed interested in touching my lady parts, and believe me i smell good and look good and am clean. i did ask compassionately if he thought he might be gay or bisexual (i had to…you hear many stories of women wasting years with a man who eventually comes out which i think is cruel). The relationship ended not through lack of sex but through lack of intimacy and taking me for granted and other things. i rarely give up and stick relationships for the long haul but this one was far too complex and i had a gut instinct i was wasting my life there. i would be far more hurt down the line than i was when i broke up with him after 5 years. i was doing us both a favour. so yes some men have performance issues at this age, he was in his late 20s by his own account. some performance issues are performance anxiety, some medical reasons which can be helped most of the time. however some are hiding darker secrets, in the closet, porn etc.

    1. 25.1
      Lisa

      The feelings you describe are the same ones I had with my ex who had porn induced ED. I tried to help him, I did so much research I was open and understanding, but nothing ever changed.  And the defensiveness, OMG it was horrible, and as you say a lot worse than the actual ED.

      1. 25.1.1
        Stacy

        @Lisa,

        I went out with a guy from the military in the past who admitted to me that he can only ejaculate by masturbation after watching porn. That was the last date we had. I can’t even deal with that kind of issue.

        1. Lisa

          Agreed. But at least he was honest with you, so you had that option to leave earlier rather than later. Most men are not.

        2. loubelle

          and good for you lisa. i would say same , now. i dealt with that issue , he didnt.. not fully it was soul destroying for me, after 5 years i broke it off, and henever even chased me lol after everything i did for him and after all the sacrifices i made in 5 years. he was a user and when he had no other use for me he let me go with no objection. i think tbh he was too cowardly to end it himself so waited until id had enough. he would never commit although he made promises he always broken. he lied. he came across as hippy dippy nice caring man, he makes all the right sounds that women want to hear but he delivered b*gger all.

      2. 25.1.2
        loubelle

        i feel our understanding and compassion was our downfall in these instances. They bank on us sticking around if they give the sob story. we as women want to help and at times stick around far too long. im sorry you went through what i did. they can be very selfish. im not sure if it was porn induced, he actulally ‘said’ he had a dislike for porn and what it represents, i was am still confused. he played with my head so much. i do feel he is gay or it could be the porn induced ED. either way lol neither works for me. i disagree with porn. i disagree with men who use owmen as beards for years and take away their futures.

        1. loubelle

          now , i wouldnt date a man with E.D. ever. different if youre already with someone and it happens, as it does sometimes with age, health etc. however a new relationship…no way! never again.

        2. Lisa

          I totally agree with you about our understanding and compassion.  Most men would leave us in a heartbeat if the situation were reversed. But as women if we leave or don’t  understand this we are horrible people, and we are treated as such by society not just our partners.  I know you are out of this now, but there is a great site that helped me called no fap.  There are 100s of women that are facing or have faced this issue, and they felt the exact same way.  The addicts are on there too, and some are very helpful, but others also just confirm what you and i both already know. “How horrible is she for leaving me, for not standing by me?”  But the truth is most of the women stood by for years with no change in the man, and only then did they leave. Men need to lay off the porn and masturbation.  They need to seriously consider how this may effect their future relationships.  And all women need to be aware of porn induced ED and addiction, and ask about it, ask about it early on.

  25. 26
    Stacy

    And that honesty was well appreciated…that way, both our times weren’t waisted and he could find someone who has the fortitude and patience to deal with this sort of issue.

    1. 26.1
      loubelle

      it was a blessing he told you so soon, even if a little startling. honesty is best policy and then we make a choice whether its worth it. you made right decision to leave especially when porn induced, its an addiction and they will prefer it over sex, thats unfair to the woman. id be out of there in a flash now, no ifs or buts. i had the fortitude and patience to deal with it, but it took me 5 year to realise i wasted my time and he had wasted my time. he knew very well alot of women wouldnt hang around with no sex or at least no intimacy, so he held onto me because he knew others wouldnt. theres not many women who go into a new relationship who will stay in it with these sort of problems. they want to be the only woman their man desires, not a fantasy on screen. theres other men out there who are ‘clean’.. and who can get it up. after my experiences after 5 year, no way will i ever get with a man with ed ever again. he destroyed me emotionally. let him pull the woe me card to some other sucker.

  26. 27
    D_M

    If you know that sexual intimacy can be bracketed with specificity for you, explicitly let the other person know. Some folks erroneously assume that the previous partners were just not Don Juan enough. Let them know that no amount petals over the house, candles, bubble baths, sensual massages, or whisk aways to exotic locales will contribute to the furtherance of your sexual chakra. Some of you are probably saying, hold on a minute D_M, I still want those things. No one is saying that you shouldn’t. My point is that romantic gestures are not always altruistic. They come with a hidden expectation of improvements in the relationship, in and out of the bedroom. If you are involved with one of those sensual types, let them know what they are signing up for.

    Otherwise, they are likely to become highly sexually frustrated. Yes, you are still having sex, but it’s the kind of sex that’s missing. There is a segment of the population where sexual intimacy is a nonverbal extension of themselves. Every touch and caress is meant to convey a level of tenderness that shows appreciation for your physical imperfections. You are embraced in an improvisational dance, while being savored like a fine bordeaux. No one is trying to twist anything off or drill for oil. Hips are rhythmically rolled, not thrusted. This type of sexual symbiosis doesn’t occur on a predetermined timeline.

    It would be disingenuous of me not to acknowledge that some folks are influenced by porn, but there are others that are not. Try not to lump all of your partners with sexual endurance in the same basket. Wanting a longer duration for sexual intimacy doesn’t have to be rooted in porn. S, readily admits that her toe curling Os tend to occur during longer stints. I highly suspect that she isn’t the only woman thankful for a partner with multiple gears.

    1. 27.1
      Lisa

      I used to think that having a partner who lasted forever might be good too, until I had one, and then it was not.  I think the difference is that you have no choice.  So if you say want a quickie while the kids are asleep that never happens.  Studies show that men that have delayed ejaculation, for whatever reason porn or not, have less sex and are less sexually satisifed overall.   That is not to say that there are not women that enjoy 20 minute sex sessions.  But in long term relationships, where children and jobs come in, it is just not realistic.   With all my non DE exes we could have a quickie session in the am before work, so I would initiate it.  But if we had time, they could also last longer, as long as we both desired.  With my DE ex everytime I thought of initiating I remembered we would be late for work, etc.    So while I am not lumping every woman into one basket in this regard, I think just looking at it like this will help.   These men have less sex.  That may be fine with him, or it may not.   But the whole thing about it is having control versus not having control.   So if you want a long sex session and so does your partner, then the guy can hold out.  But if you want a short sex session that’s not possible.  I mean for me I could not move my jaw for days, I was in pain, and I was just bored, and it was like this EVERY time.    It is also quite frustrating when you are trying so hard to please him, and nothing you do works.  Sex leaves you disappointed, feeling like a failure, in pain, and hence there is no way in heck you are going to want that again.  Why would you?  I have had plenty of partners with sexual endurance, BY CHOICE, meaning they wanted to last long.  Partners with DE do not have a choice. So either you as a woman accept that this is your sex life, 20 minute sessions, him only orgasming by his own hand, or orgasming only 1 out of 20 times, then that is fine.  But variety is the spice of life right?  I think even the woman who enjoyed long sex while single, would grow tired of this in marriage.  It’s just not realistic.  And the men end up masturbating all the time since they cannot perform during sex.  The intimacy is gone.

    2. 27.2
      S.

      If you know that sexual intimacy can be bracketed with specificity for you, explicitly let the other person know.

      I don’t understand this statement.  But I am trying to understand, honestly I am.  It reads at first to me as if a man is trying to judge who a woman is sexually from who she is with him. It seems rather an inflexible mindset. It’s like a man wants to believe that what you’ve done with him is all you’ve ever done.  There are no other men in the world but him.  And that’s bullshit.  And if there are other men in the world, some men say never ever mention it. Others say, please let him know everything.

      Let’s start earlier.  Why are men so beholden to this idea that what a woman does sexuality has something to do with him? I was multi-orgasmic before my first lover.  I didn’t know that but it became clear just making out.  That’s who I am.  It doesn’t matter who I’m with. Some men bring it out more and some don’t.  But that’s who I am.  Let’s choose something less charged. I’m generally a chatty person.  Some people bring it out more, around others I’m quieter.  It doesn’t mean that when I’m quieter that person I’m with I don’t like them or they’ve done something wrong.  Maybe it’s better to be a listener sometimes.  No one would ever say, “S, please explicitly tell every person you meet that your chattiness may be specifically bracketed for them.” That would be ridiculous. I get to be different with different people.  I don’t have to tell them.  I just do.

      The issue, if we back it up, is that a man’s idea of himself is so tied up with his performance as a lover which is what this entire original post is about.  And how we as women try to preserve that idea.  But it’s difficult to do that–and I do value that, I don’t want to tear my man down sexually–and still have an open and honest dialogue about your sex life.

      There is a segment of the population where sexual intimacy is a nonverbal extension of themselves. Every touch and caress is meant to convey a level of tenderness that shows appreciation for your physical imperfections.

      It’s a bit confusing. It’s a level of appreciation but then earlier you say romantic gestures aren’t always altruistic. Which is it? I’m not saying it can’t be both, but I’m trying to understand what you mean.

      S, readily admits that her toe curling Os tend to occur during longer stints. I highly suspect that she isn’t the only woman thankful for a partner with multiple gears.

      LOL.  Yep, those Os take the time and finesse you describe.  But as I said, I don’t need that every time.  Very memorable, though, when they do happen.

      One thing I should note: when having a session with the toe-curling orgasms, with someone where we both really took our time and were selfless with one another during, it’s very difficult for me to not get very attached to him afterward.  Orgasm is awesome and includes a flood of attachment hormones immediately after.  So yep, feelings!  Plus the fact that I’m having sex in the first place means for me I already had feelings for the person. (I mentioned emotional safety in my comment to 19.1.1) You can also get addicted to having that intense a release all in itself. Lotta stuff going on there all at once.

      1. 27.2.1
        D_M

        S,

        “If you know that sexual intimacy can be bracketed with specificity for you, explicitly let the other person know.”

        This statement is inline with your previous comment about clear communication. I was just offering another perspective on the interplay between two people. My reference to romantic gestures, was my attempt to highlight that one person might be trying to improve things, while the other person believes their love life is fine. I am not arguing that there is a specific way to enjoy sexual intimacy. Two people might not be sexually compatible and that is perfectly okay.

        1. S.

          I’ve really appreciated all of your comments on this post, D_M.  Really made me think!

          Yep, to try to subtly improve things, I don’t know. It’s hit or miss.  The other person might generally think things are fine and not pick up on cues the other wants more.

          It’s amazing that people can stay together for such a long time, having sex, and still can be sexually incompatible.  It happens.

  27. 28
    loubelle

    i am and one of the most altruistic person youll meet..in this instance it was my downfgall., i said and did all the ‘right ‘ things over 5 years to help him recover from his trauma and in that created my own trauma whilst he skipped off. i always went and go into relationships them knowing my ‘expectations romantically, i could have never been so honest! the issue was that he said the same words but no actions…so how do we decipher! we cant until we have been in it for while. however, i do say trust ure gut, i should have 5 years ago but tbh i wanted to help and maybe play the martyr, when, i had nothing to prove because i had integrity and was is a good woman. it is the men in this insatnce when i gave him all that. no fanciness, no psychological bums, he is what he is and he took me for a fool. that is it. he could never be sexually frustrated with me i was more out there than him and he also knew it was low key if he wanted, he had the whole package but flunked! thats it. i was used. thats it!. i also said , it mighht not be pron enduced, i tyhink he has alot of problems, and i tried in 5 year to help, he can f*ck off now. i lost alot whilst he gained here. and i wont forget the lack od touch, concern, love when he was on a woe me episode. you should send your reply to my ex. its better aimed at him. no one is lumping their partners into the porn bracket, completely opposite if u read my posts, however women with experiences of this happening, theres no argument and no matter how hairy fairy you go about it they were hurt and rightly so!. i dont wnat a partner with multiple gears i want one faithful, intimate enough to connect, and communication, im not over communicating anymore to men who want mummying and looking after. been there done it. peter pans not invited anymore. nm the psycholgical excuses. and they are excuses. narcisstics use psycholgical excuses and i dont fall for it anymore. i know my mind, ive been a good girlfriend and was taken for granted, that is it!. yes i own my own faults for allowing it, but i would never diffuse his responsibility, which were the main reasons for us splitting up.

  28. 29
    loubelle

    contd:

    i played his counsellor for 4 year, until i realised…..

    i wasn his counsellor i was his girlfriend! sums it up

  29. 30
    Jeremy

    Evan, I liked your response to Tron in terms of balancing the male POV with the female.  It was necessary.  However, you wrote one thing with which I really, really disagree: “Another thing I can barely understand. What guy marries for SEX? If you’re marrying for easy access to sex, you should get your head examined. And if you are one of those guys who thinks that’s the purpose of marriage, it only reveals how little you respect or value women in that you think that’s the primary value they bring to a relationship.”

     

    Men and women each have a subconscious pie-chart of things they want from marriage – reasons why they choose to marry.  Each of our pie-charts include companionship, emotional support, intimacy, lifestyle, kids (usually), and SEX.  I don’t believe that the substance of the male vs female pie-charts are different, but the weight of each factor is definitely different.  And for men, sex is definitely a much larger percentage of the chart – much larger than 5%.  I think it is so important that your female readership understand this, because my experience is that women often assume men’s pie chart is (or should be) the same as theirs.  When you write that sex should be 5% of a good relationship and 95% of a bad one, it is important to understand what that means – when a man is happy with his sex life, he only thinks about it 5% of the time, and much more when he is unhappy.  But that doesn’t mean that sex is only 5% of his motivation to marry or stay married.  “What kind of man marries for easy access to sex?” – a male one?  A regular one?  An average one?  It isn’t by any means the only reason he marries, but it’s much more than 5%.  Take sex out and all the other reasons won’t be enough to keep him happy.

     

    This needs to be understood.  Otherwise we are left with Mrs. Happy’s model of the “happy marriage” in which the wife has lost her libido and expects that the husband should be fine with his remaining 95%.

    1. 30.1
      S.

      I would only say that a couple should consider sharing their pie chart percentages before marriage.  I almost think they should have the same percentage for sex since they do it together, but that’s less necessary.  If a man thinks it’s 20% of their time together and the woman is thinking it’s 5% of their time, then I see problems down the road.  Quality and quantity matter as well.  Some people would rather a quickie three times a week, while another wants the full event three times a week. Whoa, discrepancy!

      Also courting sex and married sex differs. That should be discussed too.  And what to do in emergencies.  And what constitutes an emergency.  I remember your points above.  Six months of little to no sex after a baby is frustrating, but may seem like a temporary thing to some.  Six years after a baby with little to no sex is a lifestyle and relationship change.  Some changes can’t be predicted.  But if sex is 20% – 30% of one’s reasons for marrying then I think a thorough discussion should be had about expectations from it before marrying.

      1. 30.1.1
        Emily, the original

        I would also say that if either party is dissatisfied with their sex life, those feelings will bleed into their feelings about the rest of the marriage and sex will take on a greater importance than it would if both parties were content. It will loom like a huge shadow. It will weigh on the person’s mind who is unhappy, while the one who doesn’t want to do it as much won’t think about it much at all.

    2. 30.2
      Evan Marc Katz

      To make your case about how I was minimizing sex, you left out the part where I said that sex was a “unique and important” part of relationships; Without it, you’re sunk. But it remains a fraction of a good marriage.

      Great sex doesn’t save a marriage where she has anger issues and he never wants to spend quality time. No matter how much people extol the virtues of sex, it doesn’t elevate a bad marriage to a good one. It is a part of a complicated formula, and if you make it too important (man: I don’t want to listen to her; I just want her to fuck me and fall asleep), what you have is a relationship doomed to fail. The men who emphasize sex the most are underestimating everything else that comes with marriage, to their detriment. Thus, if you want to make sex responsible for a big percentage of your happiness, don’t be too surprised if you find fewer female takers, and that the ones you do find have issues if their own.

      1. 30.2.1
        Jeremy

        That is what I thought you meant and I agree totally. I just worried that some readers would misunderstand the message and believe that good men should think sex does not really matter in marriage as much as it does,  and that if they do believe so they are not quality men. There is a lot of that messaging going around elsewhere.

    3. 30.3
      Mrs Happy

      Dear Jeremy @ #30,

      your above stated “happy marriage” definition is not my personal model!  It is an observation I make after listening to people, and have been surprised by – how many women are less into sex as they age, couple up long term, and bear children.  This wasn’t part of my knowledge bank during my 20’s and 30’s, thus my surprise. Nor do I think it’s a new thing, as I have a book published in the 1800’s by a Reverend’s wife, regarding how to minimise sexual requests in marriage.

      I actually find it odd that something so important to humans – sex – is not more clearly understood and openly discussed, in all of its changes through the life cycle.  There is such a veil of silence over its specifics in our society.

    4. 30.4
      ScottH

      When I was struggling with my sexless marriage, I thought of sex as a marital nutrient (one of many).  if I was deprived of that nutrient, I would become sick and that illness would dominate my being, just like any other illness.  When we are well nourished and healthy, we don’t have the burden of an illness and are free to pursue higher order needs.  We don’t sit around lamenting our vitamin sex deficiency.  It does seem that people (and the genders?) have different nutritional needs.  And sex is an essential nutrient for many and can only be provided externally.

      Something like that anyway…..

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