Do Most Men Begin to Experience Sexual Performance Issues At 30?

My Husband Refuses to Have Sex with Me
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I have kind of a delicate question that I can’t exactly ask the guys I date about. Now that I am 33 and am dating guys between age 30-36 I have noticed a change in their sexual performance. The last 4 guys I have dated have had issues in the bedroom and it has got me wondering if this is just what happens to guys when they hit this age? They all have one thing in common which is the first time we slept together, none of them could finish. This happened the 1st or 2nd time we slept together. Is that nerves? Then once sleeping together got more regular, I noticed the following. One guy has a hard time getting hard even if he has had 1 beer; it gets hard, goes away, and is super frustrating at the end of the night. Another guy just consistently had trouble finishing and could just go forever. None of them seemed particularly interested in morning sex either. I am left feeling bad as if I am the one being demanding. It makes me feel awkward initiating sex with them. None of them had as high of a sex drive as I seem to have which surprises me. Is this the new normal for men in their 30’s? I miss dating guys who had no problems. Thanks!  

Sue

There are multiple questions in your question, Sue.

  1. Do men in their 30’s routinely experience sexual dysfunction?
  2. Do men in their 30’s have lower sex drives than men in their 20’s?

Those questions have two different answers, so let’s take them separately:

According to WebMD, only 2% of men report erectile dysfunction before age 40, so, no, it is not common for a man to not be able to get it up in his early 30’s.  

At the same time, there are any number of reasons that a man may experience temporary erectile dysfunction, many of which have nothing to do with you. If he’s stressed with work, if he’s feeling bad about his life or his body, if he’s not healthy, if he is depressed or anxious or is taking medication for depression or anxiety…all of these could impact a man’s performance, including getting it up, keeping it up, and finishing.

There are any number of reasons that a man may experience temporary erectile dysfunction, many of which have nothing to do with you.

Which is why it’s important for you to understand this difference between men and women. If a woman is dry, she can still, technically have sex. If a man has any of the above issues, he can’t. Meaning, there is a much greater burden on a man’s performance. Factor in the fear of not being able to perform, and, well, it doesn’t surprise me if that 2% number is higher in reality.

Next, regarding your frustrations with the decreasing male libido…

Sorry, Sue. You’re shit out of luck.

Men’s testosterone peaks in their teens and early adult years and decreases about 1-2% every year after age 30. Hell, I reached my peak before I ever lost my virginity.

On the other hand, a peak in testosterone doesn’t necessarily correlate with a sexual peak. This article on How Stuff Works links to a study in which men report their own sexual peak at age 33. But, at a certain point, it doesn’t matter which study is “right.”

On the bright side, men often become more relationship-oriented over time because they’re not as driven mindlessly by testosterone.

What matters is that, yes, men’s libido decreases over time, and, apart from a few outliers, this is what happens to people as they age. On the bright side, men often become more relationship-oriented over time because they’re not as driven mindlessly by testosterone.

Life is about tradeoffs, my dear. You’ll find very few married couples in their 40’s having sex daily, but as long as they’re having it once a week, they remain happy and connected.

Your thoughts, below, are always appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 21
    Kenley

    I am curious as to why the word no should be removed from a woman’s vocabulary when it comes to   sex.   If that’s the case, why then shouldn’t no be eliminated from every situation for couples? It seems unrealistic   to think a person should never say no to their   partner for anything.   What is the rationale for separating sex from everything else?   Why is sex the area where a woman shouldn’t be allowed to exercise free will?

    If there are tons of things that a man really wants to do and the woman doesn’t, that means she’s not the right woman for him.    The solution isn’t for her to engage in activities she doesn’t like.   The solution is for the man to find a sexually compatible partner.   When I am not sexually compatible, I don’t judge the guy or criticize him for his preferences, I just let him know that it won’t work for us because we are on different places on the kink-o-meter.

    The other problem with never saying no is that in our culture is women’s sexuality is still not free of judgment.   If she happily does EVERY act requested, she’s a slut; if she only wants vanilla, she’s a prude….even in 2018.

    1. 21.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Kenley

      Sexuality is a complex subject. How many women are willing to openly admit their male-count (M-count) to their lover?   In his skit entitled “Platonic Friends,” Chris rock warns men that they should not ask a woman for her M-count because they do not want to know.   However, I am a firm believer that not being open just sows seeds of doubt in a man’s mind or leaves a sexually experienced woman unfulfilled because she has to suppress her needs in order to not give away her past.   The more open a couple is in the bedroom, the stronger their bond.   Is a man going to be floored by a woman who has a high M-count?   I would say that the answer to that question would be “yes” in my age cohort when I was younger. I suspect that it is less of a problem with Millennials due to hookup culture. However, a man who is going to get over it is going to get over it, and man who will not will be devastated when he finally learns the truth years after he says, “I do.”   There was a thread over on the TRP subreddit that was re-posted from another subreddit where a man learned that the prude he thought he married was actually a slut when she was younger. He assumed that she did not like sex when she refused to do oral and various sex positions with him.   His world was rocked when he discovered a video tape that showed her in a gang bang doing those things and asking for more (why anyone would kept this kind of evidence is beyond me, but people keep all kinds of things as trophies).   The guy was clearly devastated because he was asking for advice on how to proceed legally. His wife had agreed to do those things after he confronted her with the video tape, but he knew that it was not a case of she did not want to do those things, she did not want to do those things with him. That had to be soul crushing because it cuts at the heart of a man’s manhood.   When a woman buries her sexual past to secure marriage, all she does is set the man she allegedly loves up for a devastating blow if the truth eventually comes out, and most of the time, it does eventually come to the surface.   If a woman sets about attempting to convince a man that she is a special snowflake when it comes to chastity, she better be a special snowflake; otherwise, a price will be paid in the future, often after children arrive and divorcing becomes complicated.

      1. 21.1.1
        Kenley

        My question for that guy is why in the world did he marry a woman who wouldn’t perform oral sex or do all the things he wanted from her?   That’s on him.

        However,   as you like to say, the cold hard truth is that women know most men will not commit to a woman who embraces her full sexuality.   Women don’t get to have a plentiful past full of different experiences… only men do.      If that woman had told him about her gang bang and all that she had done in her past, he would have fucked her every which way, but I bet he wouldn’t have married her and she know it.   Unfortunately, it’s one of the lies women feel compelled to tell because some men can’t it.   It’s really not that complicated.   Men need to stop having a double standard when it comes to sex.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Kenley

          I suspect that he settled for less than he desired because he loved her and assumed that that was the way she was in the bedroom. I seriously doubt that he chose to marry her because he thought that she was a prude.   The fact that she never did any of those things with him in their marriage is the real problem.   It is a clear cut sign that sexual desire was never there on her part.   Sex with her husband was chore that was part of the marriage contract.   To use a Jeremyism, she chose comfort over desire.

          You are correct that a lot of women assume that they need to bury their sexual pasts in order to secure a man long term.   However, that is just a recipe for disaster.   I mentioned in a previous blog entry about how I have had talk friends down from the ledge when they discovered that a woman was not a special snowflake.   In most cases, it was not that these women had a past. It was because they chose to bury it.   To many men, that decision is seen as an act of betrayal.   It makes a woman untrustworthy, and a man feel like a chump for believing her.   Just like a person should move on if his/her lover is unwilling to meet his her sexual needs, a woman should move on if a man is unable to handle her past.   What she should not do is bury it. If a man cannot handle it, he is not right for her.   In essence, most men do not care if their woman is a whore in the bedroom.   In fact, achieving a madonna and a whore in one woman is seen as perfection.   What most men want is to be secure in the knowledge their woman is their whore.   It is about trust because once a man gives his heart to a woman, he is instinctively driven to protect her from other men.   A man’s greatest fear in relationship with a woman is becoming her cuckold (followed closely by being taken to the cleaners 🙂 ).

          With that said, one area where I disagree with Evan is on the “waiting until he commits before having sex” rule. Not so much because it is a bad practice, but because it can send the wrong message (i.e., the “I am a special snowflake” message). If a woman is going to pull that maneuver, she needs to disclose that she has not made men wait in the past, but feels the need to make him wait because she really likes him and needs to protect her heart. That disclosure places the ball in his court. To do anything else is to risk projecting a false image of herself.

          A lot of women use the argument that a man only values what he has to earn; however, that dog does not hunt in the grand scheme of things because guys almost never make a woman wait, even women for whom they are transfixed. Most guys want to have sex as a soon as possible. It is the conquer part of the primal urge to pursue and conquer. From that point, a man usually decides what else he desires from a woman.   All delaying does is give him an opportunity to learn something about a woman before having sex, a period of time where he can make a go/no-go decision without sex clouding his judgement.   A lot of guys will break pursuit during this period of time not because a woman made them wait, but because they decided that the juice was not worth the squeeze.   In this case, the woman is better off because guys will do and say whatever it takes to get into a woman’s pants if that is all they desire.   I guarantee that there are very few women who read or post to this blog who have not have not been subjected to that high speed pass.

      2. 21.1.2
        Nissa

        YAG, I think you are not taking a few things into account. Is no one allowed to learn from the mistakes in their past? For example, Evan was a slut for a time, then realized that it wasn’t meeting his needs, and he switched tactics. That really has nothing to do with his wife.

        What if the woman in your example was asked to say those things, because it was what the men she was with wanted to hear. You would have to ask that individual if it really was what she wanted at the time, and what had changed for her. I would guess it has almost nothing to do with her partner, now or then. She may have tried it and discovered that she hated it, or that it made her feel bad, or just that it wasn’t her thing. She may have been desperate for attention, money or love. People do excessive things when they feel desperate.

        Here’s another way to look at it. You want sex on your dates, sooner rather than later. That is true for you for ALL of your dates. It doesn’t change based on which person is with you on that date. I’m assuming that you didn’t know that you hated being squirted in the face until it happened. Maybe the first time you were just surprised, but then when it happed again, you formed an opinion of it – that you didn’t like it and began to avoid it.

        Extrapolating that to imply feeling about the partner seems like a reach to me. The person feeling devastated would do very well to look for a ‘pain of origin’ that is the likely source of this issue, and could be freed from the ongoing pain of having everything be about her or him.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Jeremy,

          No doubt it was soul crushing for that man.   I certainly wouldn’t dispute that.   Nor am I interested in rehashing whether it’s a good thing or not that some men are really affected by their partner’s body count.

          Let’s back things up a bit.   You say some men marry and THEN discover that their wife is sexually restricted.   With the widespread practice of premarital sex in the western world, I’m sure whether a spouse is sexually restricted, whatever the reason, is apparent before the walk down the aisle.   So the question is, why did the man in question, or any man really, compromise on such an issue and marry someone he had a base incompatibility with?

          The whole the husband decides to “work with her” on sex sounds about as inadvisable as saying you will work with a future spouse on their excessive drinking or their weight problem.   Not a good thing to marry someone that you plan on trying to change in a fundamental way.

          I find it surprising how men will repeat early and often how important sex is to them, and then they get involved with women who, up front, aren’t sexually compatable with them.   (I know a handful of men who bitterly relay their girlfriend/wife won’t give blow jobs) Then they wonder why they or their partner isn’t happy and things come undone.

          In Love U we go through the wants vs. needs and compromising questions, and never does Evan advise compromising on something that is a core need for our happiness in a relationship.   There is no way I would be in an LTR much less marry a man who wouldn’t go down on me.   If they are that sexually restricted, they are not comparable with me.   And they would likely be happier to with a more conservative woman.   I don’t care how tall a man is or whether he has a degree or not as long as he is financially responsible.   That’s where I compromise on a man.   Not on whether we are sexually compatable.

        2. Jeremy

          So the question is, why did the man in question, or any man really, compromise on such an issue and marry someone he had a base incompatibility with?”   Oh, any number of bad reasons, I suppose.   Number 1 on my differential is that she was hot – perhaps hotter than the other women he’s been with.   And in spite of YAG’s accurate assessment that he is “beta bux” to her (ie. comfort rather than arousal) he hoped he could win her over.   Hope is such a dangerous thing.   Can so often lead to bad outcomes as opposed to good ones.   And so the man in question does exactly as Robert Glover describes in his book – he gives and gives, and sacrifices – and never gets what he wants.   Because he made a bad decision – and when that decision gets plastered on a tv screen he feels crushed.   He made a bad decision.   She used him for a relationship with no regard to his needs.   He has a right to feel crushed, her behavior was not defensible, and hopefully he will learn a lesson.

        3. Jeremy

          Having said that, I’ll add something I’m sure you know.   The reduction in sex more often happens after marriage rather than before – and moreso after kids.   And at that point, the decision to “work with her on it” is often made as a sunk-costs fallacy.

        4. Tom10

          @ Jeremy
          “She used him for a relationship with no regard to his needs.   He has a right to feel crushed, her behavior was not defensible, and hopefully he will learn a lesson.”
            
          I disagree; this sentiment infantilizes his personal agency. It was his own fault. A grown adult can’t be used for a relationship.
            
          In truth, he wasn’t good-looking enough to sexually attract the women he wanted, so he had to employ annoy tactic to get the woman he wanted. Which then back-fired on him. He has no right to feel crushed; he could have married an average woman who’d treat him like gold, but no, they weren’t good (hot) enough for him.
            
          It’s only fair that if men advocate women taking personal responsibility on dating matters (who they have sex with) that we then advocate men similarly taking personal responsibility.

        5. Emily, the original

          to10

          In truth, he wasn’t good-looking enough to sexually attract the women he wanted, so he had to employ annoy tactic to get the woman he wanted.

          Thomas, I’d really like to see ONE of your posts not mention appearance, but I will agree with you to an extent. He didn’t have enough game  /charisma/je ne sai quoi (because appearance with no game means nothing).  

        6. GoWiththeFlow

          Jeremy & Tom,

          I do believe the husband from the reddit forum had a uniquely shocking experience when he viewed his wife’s gangbang video.   Heck, even if my guy had told me at some point “Back in the day, I did this really crazy thing one night. . .” I would still be stunned to stumble upon the visual proof.   There just isn’t any magic brain bleach out there to erase that from your brain.

          As far as who is responsible for that dysfunctional relationship, I think both partners wrecked that train.   The guy really ignored some serious red flags about sexual incompatibility (and someone not being that into you is a form of incompatibility) and hoped he could change his wife.   OTOH it looks like she screwed up by ignoring the lack of attraction or chemistry she felt for him. Maybe she too thought this would change.

          I’m glad Tom brought up the issue of agency because when I think of red pill sites, one big overarching theme I see is that they encourage men to see themselves as blameless victims of women and society and in doing so rob men of the opportunity to exercise positive agency in their relationships.

          Accepting and exercising your own agency is hard because to have to face the role you played in your own misery.   But the flip side of that coin is that you can learn from your mistakes how to make better decisions that will lead to greater life contentment.

          So yes, the wife’s bad decisions had a very negative impact on her husband and their marriage.   But the husband made some critical misjudgments of his own that significantly contributed to the dumpster fire.   The only thing the man can control are his own actions and reactions.   Hopefully he was able to get the help he needed to see his contributing role in this drama so he can set important priorities and boundaries in the future and find a healthy relationship.

          Lastly, Jeremy, I do hear what you’re saying about how couples can find themselves in a sexual quandary years into a relationship.   Hopefully, both men and women realize at the outset that they won’t always be perfectly in sync and they have the insight and compassion to work through those times.

        7. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original
          “Thomas, I’d really like to see ONE of your posts not mention appearance”
            
          Haha, touché Emily. I wonder if I mention appearance more than you mention chemistry?
            
          How about we play a little game; I’ll try to eliminate appearance and leagues from my blogging lexicon and you try to eliminate chemistry from yours? Maybe an honest broker like Marika, GWtF or Shaukat can report back in 6 weeks to see who has improved the most? That way we’ll actually make tangible improvements to our dating lives which are directly attributable to this blog! 😉 🙂

        8. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          I wonder if I mention appearance more than you mention chemistry? Point taken, Mr. Thomas. I meant what I wrote that appearance means nothing without game/charisma/personality and was going to ask you if you’ve ever been with a really attractive woman who turned out to be bland, but then I busted out laughing and realized that wasn’t possible.   🙂How about we play a little game; I’ll try to eliminate appearance and leagues from my blogging lexicon and you try to eliminate chemistry from yours? Maybe an honest broker like Marika, GWtF or Shaukat can report back in 6 weeks to see who has improved the most? Challenge accepted, but you post about 2 comments a week. I post about 2 a day, so you are ALREADY at an advantage (just like a man!   🙂     )     So I’m not sure how to even that out. We’d have to be posting roughly the same number of comments weekly.

        9. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          And so the man in question does exactly as Robert Glover describes in his book — he gives and gives, and sacrifices — and never gets what he wants. No man with a shred of self respect would do that. He would demand a relationship of equal investment.  

      3. 21.1.3
        GoWiththeFlow

        YAG,

        That poor man didn’t need to find his wife’s gangbang video to figure out she wasn’t the right person for him.   The fact she wouldn’t do oral or certain positions were huge red flags waving right in his face.   It has nothing to do with what her body count was and when he learned of it.   It has everything to do with her attitude towards sex and relationships.

        In comment 16 above, Nissa beautifully describes how a woman with an integrated, whole-picture view of men experiences  sex:

        “What bothers me about this is that it seems like this evaluation of ‘men’s performance’ is so divorced from the men to whom the penis is attached. What about loving the man behind the penis?

        For me, sex is not just about the physical act. Yes, the act is lovely, especially with a partner who you’ve had before and you know each other’s preferences. To me, sex is about loving the man in front of me. A lot of that is physical, but there’s also appreciation of HIM, and all the qualities of him — including non physical qualities like aggressiveness, boldness, playfulness, verbosity, creativity. It’s about drinking him in with my eyes, my hands, my mouth; about being the receiver of his desire. It’s about my enjoying his body and enjoying his pleasure. None of that is predicated on an orgasm on either side, although that of course is nice. I just find that the act of loving is pleasurable, and making one part of that greater whole, into the entire thing, feels off to me”

        Up until Nissa’s comment what this whole discussion about whether men do or should want to please a woman in bed was lacking is that sex is a mutual experience where many facets of a relationship play out.   Of course a man should be interested in his woman’s pleasure, just as the woman should be concerned about her man’s pleasure and satisfaction.

        At the outset of a relationship, whether you are a man or a woman, if your partner isn’t interested in whether you are satisfied in the sack or not is very important information to seek.   Not being concerned about whether a partner has orgasms is a bad sign.   Saying no to engaging in what are widespread and socially normal sex acts, like oral sex, is another sign that this person isn’t up to the give part in the mutual give and receive dynamic that is necessary to have a mutually satisfying experience.   Both people should strive to be “good in bed” for their partner.

        A big problem with red pill sites is that the feedback this guy likely got, other than go to an attorney, is that women are dumb sluts who are not to be trusted.   I hope someone encouraged him to go to therapy to figure out why he chose this selfish woman in the first place.

        1. Jeremy

          Hi GWTF.   You wrote, “That poor man didn’t need to find his wife’s gangbang video to figure out she wasn’t the right person for him.   The fact she wouldn’t do oral or certain positions were huge red flags waving right in his face.   It has nothing to do with what her body count was and when he learned of it.   It has everything to do with her attitude towards sex and relationships.”

           

          I see your point, but I disagree.   I remember the post in question very well.   The problem is that many men get married and discover that their wife is somewhat sexually restricted, but are willing to work with them on it.   Accept it about them.   Perhaps they had a traumatic childhood, or religious upbringing, or whatever.   So you put in the work, and you try to get her more comfortable, and you accept that she has some limitations.   But to discover that she has engaged in all kinds of sexual activities in the past – has done everyone and everything with everyone…except YOU….that is devastating.   It is FAR more devastating than simply having a wife who is sexually restricted.   A basic tenet in psychology and behavioral economics is that we view everything in context.

        2. D_M

          I think what you are seeing, is how each of us internalize the physical aspect of relationships. You appear to be in the whole in camp, rather than the measured intimacy camp. S posted:

          The thing is how can women give men what they want and feel emotionally safe doing so.

          I read that and immediately thought, what’s the point if you can’t lose yourself in the moment. Everyone has varying degrees of inhibition. Maybe what S wrote is common among women. I never felt the need to have an intimacy check valve.

        3. S.

          @D_M

          Thanks for picking up on that.   I think I know what you mean because I’ve been thinking about it lately.   Honestly, I don’t think of it as an intimacy check valve.   At least not once in bed. Once I’m in bed, that’s it.   It’s the whole intimacy hog. Physically, mentally, emotionally.   That’s what losing myself in the moment means to me.   Is that what you meant by intimacy?

          I think I measure the emotional intimacy before sex.   Just like it’s difficult for women to understand how much stronger the sexual urge is in men, men may not get just how wide open (pun intended) a woman may be during sex. Not just physically.   And not all women, but some.   And it’s not just the sort of then you open up for and then snap shut for a week or so and then open back up again.

          And honestly, if I completely lost my head all the time, I’d have a bunch of kids by now!   You don’t know how often I just want to skip that condom . . . But times being what they are, I save condomless sex for long-term, committed relationships.

        4. Buck25

          I think I measure the emotional intimacy before sex. Just like it’s difficult for women to understand how strong the sexual urge is in men, men may not get just how wide open (pun intended) a woman may be during sex. Not just physically, and not all women. but some. And it’s not the sort of thing you open up and snap shut for a week or so, and then open back up again.

          S.,

          I didn’t want to let that comment go unacknowledged here. Yes! And you’re right, that level of vulnerability in a woman IS hard for a man to understand, because we don’t (I would argue we can’t, really) experience life in feelings the way most women do. Emotional vulnerability is hard for most of us men. In our driven, hard-knocks, competitive world of action, the stronger we become, the harder it becomes to peel back our protective emotional calluses and open our own hearts, even a crack… and yet, that’s the only way we can begin to touch that vulnerable world of feelings that is your world. That’s a pity, because I think that kind of intimacy, those momentary glimpses into a depth of emotion and feeling that we mostly lack within ourselves,

          may be a woman’s most beautiful gift to us, if she trusts us enough to give it, and we can trust her enough to let down our guard and receive it. That’s what real intimacy is. I think many women know that intuitively. Most of us men do not. Maybe that’s why it’s really such a rare thing to find, for you and for us. I’ve had one woman in all my life I’ve had that level of complete (physically, sexually, emotionally) intimacy with with, after three marriages and I don’t know how many relationships. It was so incredibly, amazingly beautiful… and so far, I’ve never quite found that again…but I sure wish I could, just one last time…

          Thanks, S. for sharing that thought.   Some of us do understand that, however imperfectly; we’re not always good at showing it, though.

        5. S.

          Thank you Buck, for highlighting that.   And D_M for inquiring.   There are some really thoughtful comments here that I appreciate. Frank and honest.   It’s difficult to try put yourself in another person’s skin.

          that level of vulnerability in a woman IS hard for a man to understand, because we don’t (I would argue we can’t, really) experience life in feelings the way most women do.

          It’s a moment of vulnerability on many levels.   To allow someone into your body.   The weight of that, when I said wide-open, I meant physically as well. And to want all of that. To want to be able to be vulnerable, to want everything it all means.   I personally love it.   I can’t lie.   I love being in a relationship where I can relax and let go and yes, that for that time there is no intimacy check. I can be me in all my glory. Sure, there may be other issues, but it’s so good when me feeling comfortable about being vulnerable isn’t one of them.

          I too, have only experienced it in all those levels once.   And I want to say yeah, isn’t that what we are all looking for? But I can’t say that because I know we are all looking for different things.   And even those who have experienced it, briefly or long-term, don’t necessarily expect it again.

          As a woman, I see your point of what we can give to men. I used to be frustrated by this.   It’s what I also wanted someone to give to me.   It wasn’t always easy for me to be centered and grounded in my femininity.   I had to work a long time on it. I learned I can give that gift to myself as well and that I had to.   Still, I wanted (and still want) to meet someone who has done the work on himself too. To be better at understanding a woman, even just a little bit more than the average guy. Masculinity isn’t just one thing. Not just alpha, beta, or omega.   Maybe for some, but it doesn’t have to be.   There are so many points to exist on on the continuum.

          That said, sigh, I realize that many men I will meet will not have done this work. Not their fault.   We in society grind vulnerability out of men daily as you said.   Women, too, but men more so. So I’m not frustrated anymore, but compassionate.   Because I love men.   I’m not angry at them at all.   I sense what they are reaching for, though it can get so jumbled and confusing to see it clearly sometimes in words.   But you’re right.   Empathy and intuition are things I’ve really honed in my dating and non-dating life.   We don’t talk about empathy and intuition on this blog often but we should.   Having that for the opposite sex, really trying to see things from their eyes for more than half a second, makes such a difference.

          It was so incredibly, amazingly beautiful… and so far, I’ve never quite found that again…but I sure wish I could, just one last time…

          I hope you find it one last time too.   I know I will, though I may be in my 60s when it happens!   That just means I’ll never give up looking. 😀   I don’t expect it tomorrow, but I’m not giving up on it, either.

      4. 21.1.4
        Lisa

        I have never asked a man about his numbers, because I don’t care, it would not change who he is now to me in anyway, his past is his past.   So long as he has not done anything illegal, and is disease free that’s all I need to know.     I am certainly older than the hook up culture. I have only had a man ask for my numbers maybe twice in my dating life, and I did not answer.      If a man needs to know my numbers then he’s not the man for me.     So if he asks, I don’t answer, and if he persists I move on.   That sends the message to me of who he really is. I don’t want to be with a man who judges a woman on her numbers or calls her a “slut.”     So he’s not the one for me.      I think if that number matters to a man so much, it’s almost always a sign of his deep insecurities.     My number actually is quite low and I think most of the men asking would be fine with it, but the point is that they are asking and to me that says something about their character that I don’t appreciate.   If a man is secure in his “manhood” and himself, then the number of partners, or what a woman has done in her past should not be “soul crushing” did you really just say that?     In this day and age women enjoy sex just as much as men do.   In fact women have always enjoyed sex just as much as men do, society just taught them to not express it, now they are.      Trying to convince a man that she is a special snowflake when it comes to chastity, what? Huh?     Who the freak says that, did I fall asleep and wake up in 1950, come on now.      I do agree if a person is a virgin, man or woman that should be shared with potential sex partners, but beyond that, who cares, what difference does it make?      Would you be honet about your numbers to a woman, would you expect she would judge you if they were high?   Dude!   And to the woman you reference in the scenario above did you ever think, that maybe she had changed?   How did she bury her sexual past, did he ask her about it?   Are you the same person you were in college?      Did you do things you regret and would not do now?

        1. Jeremy

          The soul crushing part wasn’t about what she had done in the past.   It was about what she wasn’t doing with the man who married her, who gave everything for her.   And yes, in such a situation, soul crushing is very much the right phrase.

        2. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          The soul crushing part wasn’t about what she had done in the past. It would be soul crushing for a woman to discover a tape like this with her husband in it, particularly if she’s not into group sex. Those are images you can’t get out of your head, and she may not be able to get beyond it. One’s sexual past should stay in the past.  

      5. 21.1.5
        Emily, the original

        Yag,

        There was a thread over on the TRP subreddit that was re-posted from another subreddit where a man learned that the prude he thought he married was actually a slut when she was younger. He assumed that she did not like sex when she refused to do oral and various sex positions with him.   His world was rocked when he discovered a video tape that showed her in a gang bang doing those things and asking for more (why anyone would kept this kind of evidence is beyond me, but people keep all kinds of things as trophies).   The guy was clearly devastated because he was asking for advice on how to proceed legally. His wife had agreed to do those things after he confronted her with the video tape, but he knew that it was not a case of she did not want to do those things, she did not want to do those things with him. She wasn’t that into him. If she’s saying no to sexual acts that are considered to be “normal” with him, she wasn’t enjoying sex with him.

        1. Lisa

          Or maybe she never enjoyed those sex acts with those men to begin with?      Maybe she was peer pressured, maybe she was young and stupid.     There are many things I have done in my past that I would never do again.

        2. Emily, the original

          Lisa,

          Or maybe she never enjoyed those sex acts with those men to begin with?      Maybe she was peer pressured, maybe she was young and stupid.     There are many things I have done in my past that I would never do again.

          Yes, very true. It’s called being young and figuring out who you are.  

      6. 21.1.6
        Emily, the original

        YAG,

        If a woman sets about attempting to convince a man that she is a special snowflake when it comes to chastity, she better be a special snowflake;

        These “special snowflake” comments are like something out of the 1950s. If she’s enjoying something sexually with you, yes, she’s done it with someone else. If she’s particularly skilled at something, where do you think she learned it?

      7. 21.1.7
        KK

        Lol, Yag!

        You’re killing me with your double standards. You have criticized your ex on here for being upset about your past man whoring. But it’s completely understandable when a MAN gets upset about his spouse’s past. Because well, MEN experience soul crushing depression when they find out there wife isn’t a “special snowflake”. But… if I were to guess, I’m betting you brag about your conquests expecting admiration for your supposed studliness. Nope. Doesn’t work that way. Women have feelings too. Some care about your past. Some don’t. But no one that cares about you wants to hear about your past escapades.

        And another thing… There’s no such thing as a special snowflake. We are human beings, all flawed, most doing the best that we can. I’m confident you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a woman that was married for years as her only sexual experience and one that slept around most of her life.

         

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          The soul crushing that this man experienced was not because his wife had a past, but because she chose to bury it.   It was a past in which she performed the acts he desired on other men, but refused to perform on him.   To use a manosphere term, that is when he learned that he was beta bux.   No man wants to be beta bux.

          The special snowflake comment pertains to making a man wait. When a woman makes a man wait without mentioning anything else, he assumes that she is that way with all men. To discover down the road that the woman who made him wait jumped into bed quickly with many men before meeting him makes him feel like a chump. In essence, he cut her slack because he assumed that there is no pushing the subject.   She was in essence a special snowflake that needed to receive special treatment.   I do not understand why this reality is so difficult for women to understand.   It has nothing to do with a 50s mindset.

          By the way, my ex was not angel.   She had her share of one-night stands.   I was just less of an angel by a significant margin.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          YAG, you are unusually interested in the length of time it takes to have sex – both for you and in comparison to other men. I went out with 300 women and never spent one second thinking about this. It may be worth considering your relationship to this issue rather than coming to sweeping and faulty conclusions.

          Ex: When a woman says, “I won’t sleep with you now,” the most likely scenario is that she likes you, she’s made mistakes in the past and doesn’t want to repeat them. Period.

          To make this into a referendum on your desirability and a judgment about her choice to respect herself enough to say no is self-defeating. It means you think your version of events (If she were more into me, she’d fuck me. I must be a loser beta chump) is more accurate than hers. In your world, if women aren’t dropping their panties on Dates 1-3, you’re a sucker. In my world, if women ARE doing that, they’re the suckers for hopping into bed with non-committal men. Can’t you see that you’re literally missing out on EVERY woman with the self-esteem and wherewithal to put sex AFTER commitment?

          Essentially, you’re fishing in the shallow end and wondering why you’re not catching anything good. The explanation above should go a long way in explaining.

        3. Lisa

          @yetanotherguy, makes a man wait for what?   You mean that she does not want to have sex until marriage?     And of course if she had sex previously, but now decided she wants to wait that makes her what a fake, a fraud?   I don’t understand what you are saying.     “When a woman makes a man wait without mentioning anything else, he assumes she is that way with all men.”     You know what they say about people who assume?      Why would you assume that?   Maybe she thinks you are special and she wants to wait?   Maybe she has had negative experiences with moving too fast with other men, and she sees you as someone she really wants to spend her life with, so she wants to wait.     Who is asking for special treatment?      If you did not have this double standard you would not care, and that’s why this is 1950s BS.   You are still judging a person by their past, or how many men they have been with, what they have done with other men, how many times, who the heck cares?   She’s with you now right?   Why does her past matter so much to you?

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Lisa

          Maybe she thinks you are special and she wants to wait?  

          Oh, I get it.   It is just that women cannot see the male side of this equation.   Remember, women have always been the gatekeepers to sex, and there is not a man much past the age of puberty who has not been strung along by at least one woman with whom he wanted to be more than friends.   Just as women do not wish to be used for sex, men do not wish to be used for provisioning.   Why is it that woman cannot understand that that is a very real concern men have while dating? Women act like there are no bad women, only bad men who are players and cads.   I can assure you that women in their fifties still attempt to play games with guys in whom they are not interested, but who have the means by which to treat them well.   Can you not see why a guy would walk when a woman makes him wait, but did not make men wait in the past knowing that information? Can you say, “deja vu?” Are guys not allowed to erect defenses against being used for provisioning?   If you do not believe that women use men in this way, I will see if I can dig up old text messages from a few sexies on standby.   It is enlightening to have a woman make a booty text to see if she can come over after a man drops her off from an expensive date.   A man never looks at women the same way after that experience. If you believe that women do not pull this stunt, you are naive.   You may not behave this way, but enough women do that a man needs to careful the ensure that he is not being used for provisioning in much the same way as a woman has to be careful that she is not being used for sex.

           

        5. Nissa

          YAG, I can’t speak for everyone, but I tend to think that 1) most of us like to think that we are nice, non user people; 2) most of us assume that other people are like us (and therefore non users also 3) even if women have been hurt, they are trying to give people the benefit of the doubt (because if she isn’t, you’ll see her as a man hating feminist bitch and won’t be dating her anyway).

          Women do understand that no one likes to be used, for provisioning or any other purpose  – of course. But do women expect men to know their own minds, to offer what they are willing to offer and not more? YES. If a man is offering more than he wants to offer and then gets angry, and blames the woman – he is failing to take responsibility for his own actions and choices.

          As a woman who is not having sex with her dates, I understand it when a man doesn’t want to date me again, even though it is not my preference. This does not make the guy, a bad guy. He’s a guy who is not a match for me, who has different priorities. No hate, no anger, no big deal. It’s capitalism in action. If a man cho0ses to date me and finds ways for us to have dates without spending much money, it makes me respect him more, not less, because he’s not being indiscriminate. He is protecting himself in a valid way, assuming that he is still offering his self – being open, being himself, sharing his hopes and dreams.

          I don’t think anyone is telling you that those things never happen. I do think people here are telling you, you don’t have to keep having that experience, if you offer only what you are willing to offer without resentment. If you do that, even if you don’t get the desired result, you won’t feel used or that someone took advantage, because everything you offered was genuinely a gift.

        6. Tron Swanson

          Evan,

          I have a feeling that, on this issue, you’re the exception, and YAG is the rule. Men generally care about how long it takes to get sex.

          I’m most assuredly a beta, and I’m sure that most women would describe me as a loser, but I have strict rules about this stuff. I’ve never wasted a cent on the scam known as “dating,” and if a woman says no to sex just once, I next her. I keep hearing that women want a nice guy with a backbone…but, apparently, that backbone needs to vanish whenever it’s convenient for women.

          Now, I’m an extreme example, and I admit that. But what about average guys? You say that, by making certain demands, men will miss out on women with self-esteem. Whereas if men make demands, you imply that it isn’t about self-esteem, we’re just being unreasonable. Why aren’t men allowed to utilize a sexual strategy that prioritizes what we care about? Why do we have to submit to a sexual strategy that benefits women and harms us?

          I do think that men are hypocritical about sex. You can’t complain about women not being sexual enough…and then get mad if a woman has a colorful sexual history. It just isn’t logical. That seems to bother men on a primal level…but it’s never bothered me. Deception, however, is another matter entirely. I think that both genders behave in certain ways based on attraction. I’ve known women who said they never did X or would never do Y…but, for the right guy, they did, and would. I’ve seen it more times than I can count. It’s disappointing, finding out that you’re not the type of guy that most women will break their rules for. (Emphasis on “most.” I’ve sometimes been on the other side, hooking up with women who were stringing other men along, using them, or telling men that they didn’t do something, even though they did it with me last night.)

          Porn definitely helps in dealing with women. Without it, you feel a little more desperate, a little more easily-manipulated. It’s basically a poor man’s version of options. If you have to walk away, it helps.

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          Tron,

          Not to be self-aggrandizing, but you’re right. I AM the exception. But you have to remember my job:

          Help women choose better men. Nicer men. More selfless men. More secure men. More commitment oriented men. Men, frankly, like me.

          I honestly don’t mean to turn this into a competition – you have every right to live your life as you see fit – but if I’m telling women to hold out for men more like me, while you and YAG carry on with your insecure fears that you’re a Beta Bux instead of an Alpha Fucks, what exactly is the point of the dialogue? What’s the takeaway for women? Guys like Tron and YAG exist? We know. You’re everywhere. I’m telling women to demand more from their men – and, at the same time – letting them know that secure, confident men may also have a colorful sexual history (myself included) and that you can’t judge. If it’s not clear, I’m a dating moderate who listens to men complain about women and women complain about men – and tries to tell both sides how to make better choices that lead to lasting love. If you don’t want to find love, if you’re not a fan of women or sympathetic to their needs, if you want to go your own way… why keep coming back?

          Dating isn’t a scam. It’s a process where men who want to get married follow their sexual attraction to get laid, and, in the process of trying to get laid, discover that there are, indeed, some pretty amazing women out there. Again, I don’t blame you for trying to move fast. I blame you for your false beliefs that if you don’t get your way, you’re a sucker. That’s childlike, Trumpian behavior. Date a woman for a month, go around the bases, and, by that point, you should both be able to figure out if being boyfriend/girlfriend and having sex is worth it. Put sex first, and, well, you end up with a site like this for women who are sick of men using them.

        8. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Oh, I get it.   It is just that women cannot see the male side of this equation.   Remember, women have always been the gatekeepers to sex,

          Why don’t you worry about the part of a woman’s sexual past that really matters — not how many guys she’s been with, not how quickly she hooked up with them but how much she liked the sex with them. The guy who rocked her world sexually (and there’s usually only one or at most two), the man who set a sexual standard, poses a much bigger threat than a bunch of randos whose names she can’t even remember.  

        9. Lisa

          In reading some of the comments made by men, I can see why they ended up in sexless, or low sex marriages.     The problem is that they judge a woman for her past.   If a woman has had sex with multiple men, or done freaky things with men before she met him, then he does not want that woman, she’s a slut to him, and it hurts   his ego.     A woman who has a sexual past like this is more likely than not a woman that enjoys sex.   She is a woman, not afraid to express her sexuality, who will initiate sex, and pretty much do whatever her partner desires.     But instead of marrying the woman described above they marry a woman with a minimal sexual past, or one that is less “freaky” or assertive in bed, and then they cannot figure out why she does not want to have sex all that often, is not freaky, and has low drive and then they are happy.   Men like to operate under this delusion that they are the only one, and that she has only ever done X with them.   Often times that is not a delusion when they date the second woman I described.   But if a man wants a woman that is freaky, into sex, and has a high drive, he is going to have to in almost every case marry the woman who has a sexual past that may make him uncomfortable.   You can’t have it both ways.

        10. Tron Swanson

          Evan,

          Honestly, in our current environment, what would “better men” even look like? Men already put up with a litany of ridiculous demands, trying to merge our straitjacket-like “traditional gender role” with women’s constantly-changing modern expectations. We pursue, pay, raise other men’s children, risk divorce and financial ruin, and routinely, voluntarily interact with a gender whose members could destroy our lives with one accusation. And you’re saying that isn’t enough? If women made ten percent of that effort, and took ten percent of that risk, I’d die of a happiness overload.

          I don’t agree that there are lots of guys like myself and YAG. A growing number, to be sure, but the vast majority of men seem to be willing slaves, doing whatever it takes to achieve the mere possibility of sex.

          So, your position is that, if we don’t get our way, that doesn’t mean we’re suckers. Great. So, if I got my way with a woman–sex without commitment, and not spending much non-sexual time with her, even though she desperately wants it–does that mean she isn’t a sucker? Or is this yet another of those streets that only runs one way? You urge women to stand up for themselves, while telling men that it’s best to just go along with things.

        11. Evan Marc Katz

          “Honestly, in our current environment, what would “better men” even look like? Men already put up with a litany of ridiculous demands, trying to merge our straitjacket-like “traditional gender role” with women’s constantly-changing modern expectations. We pursue, pay, raise other men’s children, risk divorce and financial ruin, and routinely, voluntarily interact with a gender whose members could destroy our lives with one accusation. And you’re saying that isn’t enough? If women made ten percent of that effort, and took ten percent of that risk, I’d die of a happiness overload.”

          Instead, with your “us vs. them” worldview, you’ll die alone. Listen, I’m a realist. A moderate. I’m not on the side of men or women. I just find it difficult to hold online conversations with those who ONLY see their side. I GET your side. It has validity. But it is no more valid than the woman who, to be a better wife and mother, quits her lucrative career to invest in her family, only to find out that her husband is selfish, doesn’t help out at all with housework and childrearing, thinks his opinion matters more than her because he earns the money, loses his libido with her, and makes her feel trapped and lonely within her marriage. If she leaves, she risks splitting up her family and damaging the children, and since she hasn’t worked in years, doesn’t have a resume or current skills or connections to thrive as a single parent. If she gets the courage to leave her selfish husband, he lawyers up with more expensive counsel to make sure she gets the least money possible and punishes her for breaking up with him. Suddenly, she’s the primary caregiver for two kids, has limited job prospects and an insufficient amount to live on – not to mention the challenge of trying to date men as a working single mother.

          So that’s the other side of the story – just as harrowing as your side – just from a woman’s perspective. You’d be a lot more credible if you acknowledged it than if you thought it was only men who take risks in marriage. As it stands, your arguments are almost always easy to dismiss as one-sided, because, well, they only acknowledge one side: your own.

          “I don’t agree that there are lots of guys like myself and YAG. A growing number, to be sure, but the vast majority of men seem to be willing slaves, doing whatever it takes to achieve the mere possibility of sex.”

          Another thing I can barely understand. What guy marries for SEX? If you’re marrying for easy access to sex, you should get your head examined. And if you are one of those guys who thinks that’s the purpose of marriage, it only reveals how little you respect or value women in that you think that’s the primary value they bring to a relationship. It’s a unique value. It’s an important value. But sex is probably 5% of a good marriage and 95% of a bad one.

          “So, your position is that, if we don’t get our way, that doesn’t mean we’re suckers. Great. So, if I got my way with a woman—sex without commitment, and not spending much non-sexual time with her, even though she desperately wants it—does that mean she isn’t a sucker? Or is this yet another of those streets that only runs one way? You urge women to stand up for themselves, while telling men that it’s best to just go along with things.”

          For the umpteenth time, I’m in the business of helping people make better relationship choices. Such choices involve smart tradeoffs – for everyone. Not just men. Which, somehow, you still don’t seem to acknowledge after all your time reading this site and complaining about women. For people who want to get married, YES, a woman is a sucker if she is sleeping with a guy for six months and he’s not a boyfriend and has no desire to get married. And if a man wants to get married, and she’s stringing HIM along, milking him for free dinners and vacations, while keeping her options similarly open, he, too, is a sucker.

          To be part of a couple, you focus on what you give, not what you get. That’s something I never hear from the MGTOWs who seem to keep very close track of what they give, but have never met a giving woman. If that’s the case, that is ALL about you and the women you’ve chosen, as opposed to the nature of women or marriage itself. If you keep track of every penny you spend and every date it takes you to get laid compared to other men, you are pretty much setting yourself up for failure. However, if you’re a “nice guy with balls,” you can treat women well, follow up regularly, be sexually aggressive, and still be respectful of her desire to figure out your relationship status before sex. And a “cool girl with boundaries” should have no trouble reaching for the check, showing warmth, enthusiasm, appreciation for a man’s efforts, and “going around the bases” for that month before they mutually decide if a relationship is in the future. Everything in moderation, my friend. My way, everybody wins. Your way, everybody loses. I don’t know why you defend your position so hard. If there were a third party judge of this dialogue, you’d have lost by TKO in Round 2.

        12. Tron Swanson

          Evan,

          Actually, I agree that marriage can be bad for women. I’ve seen far too many women trapped in bad situations, and/or held hostage by antiquated gender roles. For men, the risk is legal and financial, and for women, it’s usually emotional (and sometimes physical). But I tend not to bring this up, for multiple reasons:

          1. The vast majority of women really, really, really want marriage. There’s no point in trying to convince someone that they shouldn’t want something they want. I’ve had several women ditch flesh-and-blood me in favor of the mere idea/hope of marriage. If they believe it’s equally dangerous for them, they sure aren’t acting like it.

          2. It’s one thing to say that it can be risky for either gender; it’s quite another to say it’s equally risky, or that the types of risks are equally bad. If I had a son and a daughter, I’d worry less for my daughter in this area, because our current society is geared toward women. A woman can get away from a man much more easily than a man can get away from a woman.

          3. Though I believe marriage can be bad for women, it’s hard to respect the alleged seriousness of some of the claims that are made, as the “oh, marriage can be bad for women, too” argument primarily gets trotted out when…men complain about marriage, and some false equivalency is needed. Women simply don’t warn each other not to get married like men do. There’s no MGTOW equivalent among women. And don’t talk to me about feminists – the vast majority of them are married or will get married, only a tiny number of feminists are anti-marriage.

          You may be a moderate, Evan, but our surroundings are rarely moderate. If you’d been doing this in the 1950s, I’d hope you would have stopped fence-straddling and said, “No, at the moment, women definitely have it worse.” And in 2018, well, I’d hope you could see that the opposite is now true.

          Finally, if you don’t think that men marry for sex, I don’t know what to tell you. Just…wow. Of the men I know who have married, all of them have told me (in different ways) that they’re tired of dating/chasing, and ready for something “guaranteed” or “easier” or “automatic”. I wonder what they’re talking about…emotional fulfillment, maybe?

        13. Evan Marc Katz

          Sorry to interrupt your narrative. I know facts don’t change your feelings, but here’s a piece on the Divorce Gap. It states that contrary to what you believe, men far better post divorce than women. I know that’s like telling you 2+2=5, but well, that’s what happens when you attach yourself and identity to a false narrative. Quote:

          “Despite the common perception that women make out better than men in divorce proceedings, women who worked before, during, or after their marriages see a 20 percent decline in income when their marriages end, according to Stephen Jenkins, a professor at the London School of Economics. His research found that men, meanwhile, tend to see their incomes rise more than 30 percent post-divorce. Meanwhile, the poverty rate for separated women is 27 percent, nearly triple the figure for separated men.”

          So, my friend, Tron, there’s no other way to put it, but you’re not correct. Men don’t have it worse. That is what you believe. That is what everyone around you believes. But it is not true, any more than it’s true than 2+2=5. That’s why I don’t indulge angry men on here; you’re entitled to a certain level of frustration or fear; you’re not entitled to your own facts about the world.

          Finally, if you’re surrounded by men who married for sex, I guess I traffic in highly different circles than you. If sex is that accessible (as both women and men say it is in this Tinder/text/hookup/MGOTW world), why would ANYONE marry for sex? And who, in his right mind, thinks that tying your life to someone for easy access to sex is a good idea?! Anyone who does so is to blame for thinking, like a teenage boy, with his dick. I don’t have any sympathy, no more than I have sympathy for the woman who knowingly married a rich asshole who remains a rich asshole after they’re married.

        14. Tron Swanson

          Evan,

          First and foremost, if that article is correct, someone needs to tell women. Divorce allegedly isn’t in their interests, but they still initiate it seventy percent of the time. That’s quite odd. Based on the info you just gave me, I looked around for feminist-written “Don’t get divorced, ladies, it’ll go horribly for you!” articles, but I’ve found a bunch of empowering, “He owes you, take him for all he’s worth!” stuff, instead. You’d better start warning women about this danger, my friend, because no one else seems to be. But that’s just a coincidence, I’m sure.

          Now, I won’t argue statistics with you. Maybe this article is right. Maybe it’s misleading, just as “married men are happier” is misleading (only men whose marriages are still together are polled–men whose marriages failed, well, they aren’t asked if marriage made them happier). I can certainly think of reasons why men would bounce back better than women, and they have nothing to do with women somehow having it worse.

          But, like you, I’m all about reality, and reality will bear out which of us is right. If marriage really is awesome and safe for men, well, I’d expect to see more men getting married, in the future. I’ll be revealed as a lone voice, and countless men will make marriage trendy, again. The marriage rate won’t continue to decline. We surely won’t go through what Japan has, or what Britain is starting to (lowest level of opposite-sex marriage since they started keeping records). Alternately, if I’m right, marriage will continue to decline, as masses of men look at a combination of cold, hard data and the experiences of men they know. Your clients will be forced to deal with a shrinking pool of marriage-willing men (and I’m guessing that pool is pretty small to begin with, given that your clients tend to be higher-earning, as I understand it).

          If one of us is in a bubble, it’s more likely to be you, based on class. I have a feeling that, economically, I’m much more average, and thus more predictive, in certain ways. But time will tell.

      8. 21.1.8
        Lisa

        @jeremy but the husband is being crushed for no reason.   As I said earlier, are there things that you did when you were younger that you don’t do now?   Things maybe that you liked then, or did due to peer pressure that you don’t or would never do now.   Say getting wasted every weekend and forgetting what you did?      Can you see how maybe that was fun in college but it is not something that is fun now?   Do you maybe see that she was pushed into that video and did not want to do it,did not enjoy it at all?     See what the husband did was throw a hissy fit, because he was jealous of her doing something else when she was younger, but not doing it with him, so she did it with him, and likely did not enjoy it.      But hey if it makes his ego feels better, that’s all that matters right?

  2. 22
    D_M

    Come on you’ll, don’t go there. By now it should be quite clear that a certain member has a touchy relationship with a woman’s history. I’m sure we all have varying degrees of acceptability, but I have to admit, a tape would be rough. I don’t know if I could stomach seeing the missus all sprawled out on the big screen. My advice is to burn the tapes before you move on.

    1. 22.1
      Lisa

      But what a lot of people seem to be presuming is that making that tape is something she enjoyed or wanted to do. I would guess that it is something she is embarassed of, a part of her past that she would like to forget and never do again.   She was young, she felt pressured etc.   The men are saying “Oh she did a gang bang on video, that must mean she likes that stuff, that she was doing in the video, why is’nt she doing that with me?”   Instead of saying, wow maybe she did not want to do that, maybe she’s really embarassed, maybe it’s not really who she is.     The first thing they jump to is jealousy.   I am sorry but as a woman I am tired of these “sword” battles that men have with each other.     All that matters is who she is with now, and that is you.

      1. 22.1.1
        Buck25

        I would guess that it is something she is embarrassed of, a part of her past that she would like to forget and never do again, She was young, she felt pressured, etc.

        Lisa,

        That guess of yours presumes a lot. The idea that someone who did something she is , “embarrassed of”, and “would like to forget she ever did” would nonetheless keep a videotape of her “performance” as though it were some kind of a trophy, is not just a non sequitur;  it’s so irrational as to be utterly ludicrous. Rationally speaking, that dog just won’t hunt, but you have flogged that hypothesis (absent any known fact   in the account that would even tend to support it) until there is not a scrap of hide or hair remaining on that dead horse’s bare bones. I think Occam’s Razor applies here, and the most likely explanation is the one that requires the fewest unsupported assumptions, which in this case is that she did what she did, with men who turned her on, married a man (for comfort/provisioning) who didn’t turn her on, and thus had no enthusiasm (in fact a positive distaste) for performing those same acts with him. The guy’s mistake was to marry her in the first place, of course, but I think it goes even deeper, to wit, a man who is not himself a prude, should never date a woman who is, past the first indication she is one. I’m not a prude, so there are few things that will make me drop a woman faster. There’s simply no point; there are plenty of other women who are not overly inhibited, religious fanatics,   insecure game players who fake a “make him wait til you get a ring!” style of prudery, or outright liars who think promising what they have neither the capacity or the intention to deliver is an ok way to obtain commitment. Incidentally, I don’t have a “3 date rule”, but after a month to six weeks of waiting, if I offer her exclusivity, and she’s not offering sex, then either she’s not that into me, or she’s just not my type, and either is an indication that it’s time to move on. I hardly think it unreasonable for any man to not date (or stop dating) a woman whose sexual preferences, libido, etc. are badly out of step with his own. To continue trying to make a relationship of something like that does a disservice to BOTH parties, IMHO. I did find interesting that you keep trying to rationalize the conduct of the woman in question as that of a “victim” of “unscrupulous men” rather than her own questionable judgement (but then for you, perhaps anything a woman does which even might be considered reprehensible just has to be the fault of men, somehow-woman always virtuous, men always villains in your worldview, perhaps?). Hardly the first time any of us have heard that particular meme here, in any case

         

        If a woman has had sex with multiple men, or done freaky things with men before she met him then he does not want that woman; she’s a slut to him and it hurts his ego.

        Lisa, perhaps I’m an outlier in this, but I don’t think that way, and frankly I don’t know any men who do. I see not particular advantage to a man in slut-shaming any woman; from the point of view of a mature, reasonable secure and rational man, that’s simply counterproductive. It frankly would take a pretty insecure, not very confident man, or perhaps a religious fanatic to think that way. In fact, the majority of the slut-shaming of women I have seen was done not by men, but by (surprise, surprise)other women. I can see how an insecure and rather prudish woman would see some perceived advantage to herself in shaming her more adventurous female counterparts into behavior more closely approximating her own; she might see it as lessening her own competitive disadvantage with most men, which I guess makes some sort of sense from such a woman’s POV (from my own POV it smacks of simply envy).

        1. S.

          The interesting thing about the tape woman? She and her husband had known one another and had possibly been married for seven years before he found the tape. I wonder about those years. That was the real relationship. He did want more from her sexually but he still stayed. He said he cared about her.   She loved him.   If her ‘prudery’ was such an issue, no he shouldn’t have married her in the first place and he certainly had good reason to leave once he realized it wasn’t changing. But he didn’t leave.

          There is something odd about the way he retells it. I do think there might be some trauma for her, but there is no way at all to tell for sure from his retelling.   And no sign of her trauma previously in their marriage.   His letter is about him.   She did these things with other men, but not him, when he had been so patient with her for so long.   It didn’t seem to be about her sexual conservativeness.   He would and was living with that. It was that that she hadn’t always been that conservative and was like that with him.   And she did lie to him and that’s simply wrong.

          I think she didn’t want to do certain things with him. But I think it’s less about him and more about the connotation she had with the other more adventurous (to her) sexual acts. She said they were degrading.   She calls herself a whore on the tape. She says that.   She clearly had a negative association with with those acts, if not in college, then certainly in the years later.   But up until the discovery of the tape she had shown attraction to her husband during the conservative sex she preferred.

          I have to make this clear. Once a person decides not to do something he or she probably won’t. It’s not about the other person. I think men think if a woman is attracted enough she will lose her earthly mind and do just about anything with him sexually.   I posit: not really.   It’s like the guy who gets a divorce and is done. And the woman he dates later thinks, but he married her and not me! It’s not about her.   He’s just done.   Also sometimes when a woman does lose her mind sexually that says more about her free-spiritedness of personality, not attraction to that particular man.   And yes, a free spirit is that way with everyone.

          One should choose wisely a personality that is compatible. The person they are in bed is the person they are.   This couple–their sex life hadn’t been going well for the husband for years.   Discovering the tape and the lie only highlighted what was already in place.

        2. Lisa

          @buck25 I find it interesting that you say that I was blaming men for her doing the sex tape?   Where?     I said she may have done something she regretting or felt peer pressured into doing it.   It is her fault for doing the tape, no one else’s.   But I can see how some women could be persuaded to do things they do not want to by peer pressure.   I also can see how people make decisions at say 22 that they would never make at 32. It is just the reality that we all grow with age and time.   Like I said who among us has not done something when we were younger that we regret?     I think you are hell bent on blaming the woman for this, but I suspect that if you polled most women, very few would say that they would make a gang bang video that they did not regret doing.   My point is we all make mistakes, but that does not mean we are currently that person.   I mean seriously, if you think she enjoyed make a gang bang take, you have serious issues.   Unless she was paid lots of money. Sure women make sex tapes with exes, but that is not a gang bang.   And again something you have not addressed is that people try things sexually they have never done before that they then realize they do not like.   So maybe she was not sure if she liked to give oral sex, so she tried it and did not like it.   Why is that so hard to accept?   It’s not like she did this video yesterday?     Did she keep a copy of the video, I am not so sure that it says that, just that he found it. But from my perspective I would keep it, not because I enjoyed watching it, but in case at some later date someone tried to blackmail me, or use the video.   There are many plausible explanations for this behavior, but yours is the least plausible and I don’t think as a man you have the same insight into why women do the things they do. You just don’t.

           

          Many many men see it that way.     If they did not, they would not care or ask about a woman’s sexual past as it would not matter one bit.

        3. Buck25

          I think you are hell bent on blaming the woman for this…

          Lisa,

          No, but I’m not about to absolve her of all responsibility for her own actions, either. Peer pressure or not, drunk or not, for that matter, paid or not, all of us are responsible for our own adult actions That specifically includes you, me, the woman in question or any other adult. And yes, I get that people change; you have, I have, presumably she did. None of which absolves us of the consequences. Like it or not, we own the decision (unless we were coerced) we own the act, and we own the consequences. Let’s say you drive drunk, and get caught. That DUI stays on your record, even if you never take another drink the rest of your life, right? You don’t get a mulligan or a “do over” on that. Now making a tape of a gang bang, on which you call yourself a whore (who knows, perhaps that was a fantasy of hers, at the time-I’ve heard stranger tales) isn’t a crime, Having experience, even a lot of it, is not a crime either (personally, I welcome a woman who has a lot of experience; I’m not stupid enough to think she got that good or that knowledgeable by some kind of magical osmosis. She got it by having sex with a good many men, maybe a lot of them. I’m good with that, provided, I’m fairly sure being exclusive with me (assuming I’m expected to be exclusive with her) is something she’s content with here and now. In no way am I “judging her for her past”. I don’t think I’d even judge a woman for having actually been a prostitute 20 years before, as long as (a) she didn’t claim to have had “only a few” partners before me, and (b) she was no longer engaging in her former profession. What I’m not OK with, is a woman in like circumstances telling me she’s only had ONE previous partner (this one apparently  did say that, to her husband, and it was a flat out lie), behaving as if she has little to no experience (that is, in effect, living the same lie), and then keeping a tape of it which, when discovered, proves that she lied to me. It reminds me of the sorority girls in college who went through every guy in a fraternity house; then when one of them  gets pinned or engaged to one of those same frat brothers, oh wow, instant,   unquestionable, retroactive virginity! I think not. That’s just plain hypocritical. We all make mistakes, we all change over time, but if we’re directly asked, I think honesty is the best policy, and that goes for BOTH genders. Look, Lisa, suppose a woman asked me if I ever cheated on my wife. The fact is, that while I never cheated on either my second or my third wife, I did cheat on the first one. Should I lie about that, if directly asked? I don’t think so, and I won’t, despite the fact that was 40+ years ago, and I’ve obviously had a change of values since, and wouldn’t even think of cheating now. Still, I did it, I own it, and no matter why I did it, I DON’T get to take it back. As for her being “possibly blackmailed with the tape”, how exactly would having a copy help her? If that happens, it’s going to be disclosed anyway, whether she kept a copy or not. Leads me to believe that she wasn’t all that regretful of what she had done, so long as no one found out. You can try to spin it however you choose, to make it fit your personal beliefs and narrative, but the fact is, keeping that tape was a very stupid decision, one which, at least on its face, looks like maybe the particular leopard hadn’t changed her spots as much as you’d like to believe she had. You think “she couldn’t have possible enjoyed a gang bang”? I’m not so sure, because I have heard a few women (not many, but a few), admit to having done pretty much just that, and remarking that they enjoyed it at the time they did it. In any case, she told an unequivocal, direct lie to her husband to begin with, and that part is blameworthy by any reasonable standard of conduct in and of itself. None of this excuses the guy in question for being an idiot in choosing her; he’s still an idiot. I don’t know about you, but I’m willing to bet most of the ladies here would be pretty upset if the found a tape of their husband, even years before they first met, with a group of his buddies, all taking turn with half-a-dozen hookers. Let’s ask them. How about it ladies, you all happy to forgive and forget, after watching that? Do chime in and let us know. Would you feel it’s all in the past, and no way are you going to judge him for doing that? I have just a tiny hunch that would not be the gut reaction for most of you.

      2. 22.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Buck25,

        Incidentally, I don’t have a “3 date rule”, but after a month to six weeks of waiting, if I offer her exclusivity,  and she’s not offering sex, then either she’s not that into me, or she’s just not my type, and either is an indication that it’s time to move on. I hardly think it unreasonable for any man to not date (or stop dating) a woman whose sexual preferences, libido, etc. are badly out of step with his own. To continue trying to make a relationship of something like that does a disservice to BOTH parties, IMHO   I think this is totally reasonable. You don’t have some ridiculous N-rule, you will make an effort to let a woman know you are trying to get to know her as a person and are willing to date her exclusively while you see where things go …. Perfect. Ostensibly, it’s quite reasonable for sex to be on the table at that point (if you both are looking for a relationship). This should make her feel she’s not be used for sex and you not to feel like she’s taking advantage of the friendship/companionship/free dinners.

      3. 22.1.3
        Lisa

        @S it is also perplexing to me that the guy seemed to be fine all those years with the girl not doing those sexual acts, but only when he discovered she had done it with others did it really bother him.     I agree don’t marry someone thinking that the sex you are having will get better.   MANY men do that. I had a good male friend whose girlfriend would never give him blow jobs.   She had an experience where a man made her gag and degraded her.   She shared that with her partner and said from day one that she would never do that. He thought he could change her, he did not, and they ended up divorced two years later.

         

        I don’t think what the woman did in the tape was lying.      Did the partner specifically ask, did you ever engage in a gang bang?   Have you ever done X?     If not that’s not a lie.   Now I am all for the position that an omission can be a lie, but I don’t see that in this case.   Most of my partners including my fiance have never asked about my sexual past.   Not my numbers, what I did, who I was with.   Now there have been a few times that I have offered some things up, and he was fine with it.     That’s how I knew he was the one.     If your partner does not display an interest in your sexual past, then I don’t see a need to offer it up. If he cared he would ask you.   Her past clearly matters to this particular writer, which in itself is a problem.   But if it mattered he should have been more clear and direct in the questions that he asked her and earlier on.     If the person was arrested for a sexual act, has an STD, or was a porn star (actually making money) then that should be disclosed, other than that no.   I have made sex tapes with prior boyfriends, there are nude pics of me out there from spring break, years ago, etc.     Do I just offer this all up on the table for no reason?   No.   But I have a partner who loves me for me, not for my past. And it is very concerning to me that if he loves this woman as he says that he has not at least stopped to say maybe she was traumatized by what happened.   As you said all he can do is say me me me.   He cannot stop to see how her past may have hurt or effected her.   A man who loves her would, imo.   I am female and if I saw my partner in a video like that, I would be more concerned about how it effected him, than I would about how it effected me.     But that is of course because i know my fiance and know it would be out of his character to do something like that, so if he did there is a reason he did.

         

        I am not saying this about you.   But in generally why do men care so much about a woman’s past?   To me that shows extreme insecurity, which is why I don’t continue relationships with men like that.

        1. Fleurdl123

          Really, how do we know this story is credible?   It seems like a worst case scenario tall tale to me.   Some guy asking what kind of legal recourse he may have in this kind of situation?

          I don’t believe there is a tape at all, but it generates a lot of attention and debate by tapping into some/many men’s paranoia about getting played/cheated/deceived.

        2. Chris

          Yes, how do we know its credible? It could just be a story made up to stir debate.

          But I’ll switch genders to get across why many men feel he was “cheated” (for want of a better word) in this case. Say a woman meets a man who’s otherwise great but seems to have a lower than average libido. He’s not as interested in sex as she’d like. Lacking in passion and enthusiasm. Adequate, but barely. He says he’s only had one partner before so she figures he’s inexperienced. Perhaps he’ll learn, and he’s otherwise such a great guy she agrees to marry him.

          But then  later she starts hearing credible stories about how he used to sleep around with many women and what a great, fantastic, passionate lover he was with them.  She’d start to feel a bit  cheated too I think.

        3. S.

          @Lisa

          A few things.   First, this couple is a hot mess. I did try to investigate to see if there was an update and found soon after he asked her to take a polygraph to see if she was attracted to him. And she did. I guess she passed?

          That did strain my credibility, but in the end, I went with it’s all so beyond everyday behavior it probably is all true. They both have issues.   I actually decided to stop commenting on them specifically because we’ll never know all that really went on with them.

          Second, the discussion it has sparked here is important because of what I said to Buck above.   Intuition and empathy.   It’s difficult to truly understand another person’s experience.   But it’s important to me to at least try.   I’ve never made a sex tape, but I try to understand why one might.   I don’t judge.   Just ’cause that’s not the thing I keep private, doesn’t mean I don’t have other things I keep private.

          Third and finally, I believe it’s important for women to try understand men’s fears if we want them to try and understand ours.   I said something above about trust and the trust it takes for a woman to open herself up to a man sexually.   I know men don’t necessarily experience sex that way, but I would want them, especially those I date, to try to understand the kind of trust I’m offering, that we have for me to be with them that way.   Does this make me insecure, that I need I want full trust with men I sleep with? Nope.

          In turn, women have to try and understand why this situation really pings as devastating for a man.   Why? His way of opening and trusting was believing her to be a certain type of person.   She said she’d only been with one man before. She lied about the one man. She didn’t deny lying when confronted. So now she’s a liar. I’d be upset if I found my husband lied to me about, well, anything.   We are again back to trust.   So he had been patient with her and he had been understanding.   He was only her second lover, so her reticence made sense to him.

          Now he sees her having sex with multiple men and seeming to enjoy it. First, that imagery is going to be plastered forever on his brain. To him, this is like two different women! Anyone would be upset seeing their spouse have sex with five different people in secession.   For him, he thought she was one woman and now he sees a completely different side of her that she has never shared with him.   Which woman is she?   Why hasn’t she shared this with him?   He is hurt and confused. Remember, we are getting this post from him 36 hours after discovery.   He’s still reeling.

          I understand that.   And despite the hot mess they are together, the last post I found they were still together.   Now it’s been four years since then so who the hell knows, but his last post wasn’t about divorcing her.   (Though some may argue they should divorce.)

          No one wants the trust they have painstakingly built and given destroyed.   Not a woman opening her heart and body to a man, not a man spending years being patient and denying his own needs for a woman.

          It’s difficult to put ourselves in another’s skin.   We can continue to say, ‘but what about this, that, and the other’.   Points are valid.   But in the end, I can say, while I don’t always understand how men feel, I still respect their feelings. They are different than mine, but still valid. And with my own future man, I will do my best not to betray his trust. We may need to discuss trust and agree on what that is, but I believe with open communication and our general honesty with one another, we’ll be able to maintain the faith we have in one another.

          That’s all I’ve got on this one, but if that’s the lesson I’ve learned from Gangbang Tape 101, it’s a good one.

  3. 23
    Stacy

    Well, my man is 38 and so far so good.*crossing fingers*

    However,  I do not like the taking forever bit. Sorry but I have stuff to do. I love sex but after 20 minutes (and even that’s pushing it. Give me a rigorous, passionate, and sometimes very freaky 10 mins. and I’m good) and after me having an orgasm, it no longer feels good.

    Men, please understand that a penis only feels good for so long (and that is if there is clitoral stimulation at the same time for most women). Else, I will start to think about what I am having for dinner and what bills need to be paid. Just being honest.

     

    1. 23.1
      D_M

      Stacy,

      So what sorts of strategies are you researching to reduce performance time?

    2. 23.2
      S.

      Twenty minutes? Wow. You mean twenty minutes of penetration or twenty minutes from kiss to orgasm, the entire session?

      1. 23.2.1
        Stacy

        @S

        I PREFER 20 minutes of everything included (and that’s on a good day). 20 minutes in sex world is a long time.lol

        1. S.

          @Stacy

          Thanks! Very informativee. Sometimes 20 minutes for the whole thing, sometimes I just want 20 minutes of foreplay. As I said in other comments, orgasm doesn’t have to happen in every encounter.   We do have lives, lol.

          For the “near-epileptic, eye rolling, multi-orgasmic” experience Semi described above? I’d need more than twenty minutes.   But people vary.   And it’s good to know that everyone is different.   And again, I don’t need that every time.

          This is why couples need to talk so both parties know what each other wants.   Open communication is so important.

           

        2. Buck25

          I PREFER 20 minutes of everything included(and that’s on a good day). 20 minutes in the sex world is a long time.lol

          Stacy,

          Seriously?? @ 20 minutes for EVERYTHING?? I can see 15-20 minutes for actual vaginal intercourse( I’m not sure why a bit more would actually hurt, if you’re adequately turned on and/or having multiple orgasms, etc.), but EVERYTHING??? Damn, you younger people have really busy lives these days! I don’t remember it being quite so rushed. Then again, you know how it is with us older folks; we still can do what we used to do all night, but it takes a little longer than it used to. Besides, I’ve found it does take a lot of post-menopausal women longer to get warmed up… but then, as the old song goes,  ” Darlin’  don’t say a word; I’ve already heard, what your body’s sayin’ to mine. If you need all night, it’s alright…honey, I’ve got time!”

          Look on the bright side; see what you have to look forward to, when you grow up, lol!

        3. Emily, the original

          Buckster25,

          ” Darlin’  don’t say a word; I’ve already heard, what your body’s sayin’ to mine. If you need all night, it’s alright…honey, I’ve got time!”

          Sometimes if it’s too slow, the whole thing feels like a big production. Particularly if a man is reading a woman’s body like a road map so she knows where the car is going ahead of time … Point A (mouth), Point B (boobs) … You can imagine the rest.  

    3. 23.3
      Lisa

      Exactly, 20 minutes of penetration is far too long for most women. It hurts, and at that point I am starting to make a mental to do list.   Men are under this impression (mostly because of porn) that they are supposed to last forever, that makes them good in bed, when that is not true in almost every case.     I wonder does your man watch a lot of porn and masturbate?   He may be suffering from delayed ejaculation, meaning he cannot orgasm more quickly even if he wanted to.

      1. 23.3.1
        Stacy

        Good point Lisa (about the porn influence).

      2. 23.3.2
        Buck25

        @ Lisa,

        Silly me. I thought in this enlightened age, everyone knew better than to use porn as a how-to manual. If there are any of the guys reading this who think otherwise, please, don’t try some of the unusual things you see there with your woman. Seriously, just…don’t. Some of what looks erotic on screen, really isn’t in real life, and some of those positions, etc, will likely be painful to (and can actually injure), you, your partner or both. And no, being a true “sixty minute man”, is NOT desirable to most women. Maybe for a tiny handful who have a tendency to multiple vaginal (as internal G-spot) orgasms, and the like, and need a lot of direct stimulation to get there; there are not many of them, and most men could go a lifetime without ever encountering one. Lisa isn’t right on everything, but she is on this point. So take this from a male POV, guys, that’s an ability you DO NOT need to develop; in fact, it’s a good way to develop delayed ejaculation (DE), and you won’t like it if you get it; it’s roughly the male equivalent of female anorgasmia. Another way to get that (other than porn), is concentrating too much on your partner (yes, you can overdo that). Remember, guys, you are responsible for doing your best to meet your partner’s needs, BUT, you are NOT responsible for her orgasm-SHE is! She in turn, is NOT responsible for YOUR orgasm either-YOU are!

        1. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          Remember, guys, you are responsible for doing your best to meet your partner’s needs, BUT, you are NOT responsible for her orgasm-SHE is! She in turn, is NOT responsible for YOUR orgasm either-YOU are!

          Yep. Totally agree. If she can’t show you how to get her there or … do things to herself to get herself there … your job is done! And overly focusing on getting the other person off usually has the opposite effect. As for guys, despite what’s reported in this post, it’s usually ridiculously, enviably easy for them to get off.  

      3. 23.3.3
        Shaukat

        I suspect the reason that the woman did not want to do those things with her husband was because he was a judgmental whiny jerk.

        That’s pure conjecture and speculation on your part. She may have a good reason for no longer enjoying those sex acts (if she ever did) but you have no basis for making the claim that her husband turned her off with his judgments.

        1. Lisa

          Absolutely it’s conjecture.   But no more so than anybody else’s comments as they are all pure conjecture.

      4. 23.3.4
        Shaukat

        Absolutely it’s conjecture.   But no more so than anybody else’s comments as they are all pure conjecture.

        No, there are reasonable and unreasonable inferences that we can draw from the available evidence and facts, and then there are also baseless statements. The three most likely scenarios to explain her behavior:

        1). She was emotionally/mentally unstable at the time of the video, did not really enjoy the acts, or no longer enjoys such acts, and does not want to relive certain traumas and hence has avoided such acts with her husband;

        2). She is manipulative and cynical, hence decided to marry a man she is not attracted to at all in exchange for comfort/provision;

        3). She has some bizarre Madonna/Whore complex where she enjoys such acts with men she dates but not with someone with the title of husband (least likely imo).

        All those scenarios are somewhat reasonable based on the available evidence of her videotape and her behavior with her husband. However, we know nothing about him and whether he ever judged or denigrated her for her sexual choices, nor do we know if he’s some self-righteous prude, based on any of her statements. It’s not reasonable to infer that from the video or her actions, whereas it is reasonable to infer the three scenarios above.

        On a separate note, I can’t believe this thread has devolved into a discussion of a gang bang video, lol.

        1. Lisa

          I don’t think anyone can come to any reasonable conclusions without knowing the whole story. We only have his side of it so we really don’t know much at all. People tell stories based on how they experienced the situation but that does not necessarily mean it’s what really happened.   Ever watch the Affair on showtime? It shows the same event but told from three different people’s perspective. You would be amazed how differently they retell the story.   And of course we all see others stories through our own eyes.   You are seeing this from the perspective of a man, I as a woman. Based on the limited facts we have:

          1. The man cares far too much about his wives sexual past than anyone should.   People are focusing on the video and it’s shock value but he’s not upset she made a video, he’s upset because she performed sex acts with other men and not her.   This is childish.

          2. He is clearly passing judgment on her past behavior.   It changes the entire way he feels about her.   There is zero way he became a judgmental person in that day, he was likely to have been one their entire relationship.

           

          3. He was unwilling to respect his wives no. It does not matter why she did not want to do those acts with him just that she told him she did not. He was clearly angry, bitter and unwilling to respect her answer.

          4.   He’s selfish. If I found a video of my partner like that my first thought would be something must have been wrong that he did that. I know my partner today would never do that. So I would not approach him in an accusatory manor. I would ne concerned.   His first reaction is me me me.

          I think the entire point is why does he care?   Let’s suppose he knew about the video in advance for a second. First would he have continued the relationship or would he have been too disgusted to do so, if it’s the latter he’s judgmental. Or second if he knew about the video in advance would he just pressure her more to do acts she did not want to do because she did it with others?   There’s no way this guy comes out looking good.

           

          Can you imagine if your partner pestered you persistently to do something you had told her you would never do?   Would that make you want to do it more?   I of course come at this from my own experiences.   When I was in college I was in my share of wet t shirt contests. But I would never do that now. There are pictures.   So if my husband wants me to show my breasts in public because it’s his thing, and I refuse is it okay for him to say “but you did it in college.” No.   I have also made sex tapes with exes. There are some sexual acts I tried in them I did not like. So should I have to do them if my current partner wants to because I did with someone else?   There is a problem in this way of thinking. He’s not upset about the video he’s upset because she won’t do those things with him.   She just does not want to do those things with him.

           

          And your number 2 presumes she’s not attracted to him and that he is providing her comfort and provision. Because she won’t do certain sex acts or has a lower drive that means she’s not attracted to him? And what provisions? How do you know he’s the provider and not her?   You are making a sexist assumption.

           

          ,

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Shaukat,

          Add a number 4:   The wife married him because he had had all the attributes she (or any woman) wants in a husband despite the fact she wasn’t feeling it because people told her she would be crazy of she didn’t, that love grows over time, that there is more to a life long marriage than just chemistry, etc.

  4. 24
    Kenley

    @Jeremy,

    All we know about the couple YAG referenced is that the husband didn’t think his wife liked sex because she would not give him a blow job nor do other sexual acts he requested.    He then found a tape of her doing a gang bang.   Please help me understand how based on this tiny amount of information you came to the conclusion that this man gave and gave to his wife and all she did was use him.

    Please note that he  did not say she wouldn’t have sex at all and he didn’t even complain about the frequency of sex.   Perhaps she thought he was satisfied with the type of sex she was willing to have with him.   So, the way I see it based on this limited information is an entitled man wants to know if he can divorce his wife because she did a gang bang in the past, but won’t suck his dick in the present.   So, basically that means that once a woman does a sexual act, she doesn’t have the right to say, mmm, I   tried it but didn’t like that so I’m not going to do it again.   And men wonder why women don’t feel comfortable disclosing their sexual history.

    I will say it again, this guy should have found  a woman who wanted to do the things he wanted to do.   He should not have married her if he wasn’t satisfied with her sexually.

    1. 24.1
      Chis

      My impression of this is: in this case he thought his wife was sexually inexperienced. I even think she wasn’t honest with him. She certainly didn’t do anything to correct his belief. And far more than just being unwilling to give blowjobs or perform other acts, she was simply very unenthusiastic when it come to sex with him, and wouldn’t give him a clear reason for her lack of enthusiasm. Well he could put that down to her  being inexperienced and consequently shy, but when he learnt the truth, you could see why, in this scenario, he felt cheated.

       

      1. 24.1.1
        Lisa

        @chris I agree with the two others she does not need to tell about her sexual past.   The man that asks is insecure, why does her past matter?

    2. 24.2
      Lisa

      “I will say it again, this guy should have found  a woman who wanted to do the things he wanted to do.   He should not have married her if he wasn’t satisfied with her sexually.”    

      This is exactly correct, except he would have never married a woman who wanted to do the things that he wanted to do, which is seen by his reaction to the fact that she has done those things with other men.   See that’s the problem.   This man is trying to say he is angry, I call it “jealous” that certain sexual things were done with other men and not him.   But the reality is that he is upset that she did those things with other men, because he is judging her by her sexual past.     So let’s say she did tell him these things about herself, he would have never married or dated her.      He would have instead married and dated a woman that he felt was “chaste” in his mind, and whom of course would never do these things with him or anyone else.     These men have the Madonna/Whore complex and that is why they are ending up in sexless marriages.

      1. 24.2.1
        Shaukat

        This is exactly correct, except he would have never married a woman who wanted to do the things that he wanted to do, which is seen by his reaction to the fact that she has done those things with other men.   See that’s the problem.   This man is trying to say he is angry, I call it “jealous” that certain sexual things were done with other men and not him.

        Yeah, except he’s her husband. A woman shouldn’t marry a guy she isn’t comfortable engaging in all sorts of sexual acts with, provided that she doesn’t  universally  have a problem with such acts. Also, the type of men you’re referring to are a small minority of guys with a Mad Men style mentality, it doesn’t apply to me or anyone I know.

        I will also say this though, for those who are pointing to this video as evidence that the woman must have been a manipulative liar: the vast majority of sexually healthy, confident, and mentally/emotionally stable women don’t engage in gang bangs which they allow to be videotaped, at least not outside of the porn industry. I’ve met many women who really enjoy sex, even outside of a monogamous arrangement, who have never done this. 80% chance there was something ‘off’ with her at the time, and perhaps performing those acts trigger memories of the trauma. Wouldn’t be surprised if she has PTSD. If her husband couldn’t piece this together, the, in addition to being a beta chump, he’s also not very bright.

        1. Emily, the original

          I will also say this though, for those who are pointing to this video as evidence that the woman must have been a manipulative liar: the vast majority of sexually healthy, confident, and mentally/emotionally stable women don’t engage in gang bangs which they allow to be videotaped, at least not outside of the porn industry. I’ve met many women who really enjoy sex, even outside of a monogamous arrangement, who have never done this. 80% chance there was something ‘off’ with her at the time, and perhaps performing those acts trigger memories of the trauma. Wouldn’t be surprised if she has PTSD. If her husband couldn’t piece this together, the, in addition to being a beta chump, he’s also not very bright. Completely agree. What this guy is failing to realize is that it’s probably not something she actually enjoyed and maybe she blocked it out, but why keep the video? Wouldn’t you burn it?  

        2. Lisa

          Your second point is exactly what I was trying to say. Making a gang bang video is not likely something even the freakiest gal would do. So something was up and it seems like the guy could not even stop to consider that.

          But I don’t think that a woman or man should marry a person only if they are willing to engage in all types of sex acts with them.   If one person does not enjoy a particular act and they know that marriage does not mean they have to engage in it.   And one thing that’s super annoying and a turn off is when you have made clear to a man that you will not do X and they keep pestering you to do X.   I am the kind of person that will try anything once sexually, food, travel/advantage.   But if I have tried X and I know it’s painful and not enjoyable then leave me alone or find someone else. And there are things I have tried with my exes and did not like. So the fact that I did X with my college boyfriend and won’t do it with my husband is because I don’t like it not because I liked my ex more. It’s like saying I tried Indian food in college maybe a few times just to make sure I did not just have bad food the first time and I just don’t like it or or makes me sick. But my husband keeps saying no try it again come on!   Nope.

           

          So just because a woman has engaged in a sex act previously with an ex does not mean she liked it. For whatever reason the men are reading this to say she liked him better or somehow he’s not getting what the ex did when that’s not the case at all.

           

          This is why pre marital sex is so important.   If she won’t do X pre marriage you can bet she’s not doing it post marriage! But the men that marry women and think that are large in number. Marry a freak you are more likely to keep a freak. Marry a prude you will keep a prude.

           

        3. Chris

          Lisa, premarital sex may be important, but honesty is far more important. If a woman was promiscuous/sexually adventurous when younger, but her tastes have changed and she is now far more staid, then does she have an obligation to admit this to her fiance, rather than pretend she’s always been this way? If he finds out her actual past by himself, as I mentioned, then his first assumption is probably going to be that she’s simply not attracted to him.

        4. Emily, the original

          Chris,

            If a woman was promiscuous/sexually adventurous when younger, but her tastes have changed and she is now far more staid, then does she have an obligation to admit this to her fiance, rather than pretend she’s always been this way?  Why does she have to reveal this? Should she also tell him she used to be into goth? Or liked hair bands in the 80s and spent a lot of time going to concerts? Or that she used to be into immature musicians until she herself matured? Are people not allowed to change and grow? (Granted, the fact that she kept the tape is completely bizarre. One does not ever want to see that kind of evidence of a partner’s past.) I’m in my 40s. I’m a completely different person than I was in my 20s, and I don’t feel I have to explain that to someone I may date seriously/marry. I never spent time in prison. I don’t have children I won’t claim. I’m not lying about having a communicable disease. What else does someone have the “right” to know about my past?  

        5. S.

          @Chris

          I agree with Emily.   She doesn’t have to tell him.   That said, if she knows there is evidence or if it’s small town and they will see her ex-lovers again she might want to get in front of it in case it gets revealed and not by her.

          The other thing is if he asks.   If he asks, it’s a difficult place to be in but I wouldn’t lie because then it becomes about the lie, not whatever happens.   This woman had told him she had only ever been with one guy before him.   That’s a big mistake when you keep a tape of you having sex with five men around.   And lies just hurt everyone because it affects trust.

          It’s tricky talking about ex-lovers. In this very thread Scott in comment 11 said he had performance issues because his partner talked about an ex-lover and he couldn’t get her comments out of his mind. His advice: Hint: don’t talk to your current partner about previous partners performance.

          So sometimes a person is damned if they talk about previous lovers, damned if they don’t.

          I would just say, everything isn’t about the man not being attractive to the woman. Men go straight to that but I hope one can see from these comments things go far deeper than that.   It’s possible, but that may not be what’s going on in this case.

        6. Buck25

          …but why keep the video? Wouldn’t you burn it?

          Granted, the fact that she kept that tape is completely bizarre. One does not ever want to see that kind of evidence of a partner’s past.

          @Emily,

          Precisely the point I tried to make in my reply to Lisa; keeping that tape doesn’t exactly imply that the activity depicted on same was anything she regretted; if anything, quite the contrary. We’ve all done some things, sexually and otherwise, that seemed like a good idea at the time, but we wouldn’t care to do them now, or share the memories(or the evidence) with our current partner. For an old fossil, I had a pretty interesting sex life in my younger days. I recall a certain R&R in Vietnam, that included a memorable night with 3 Vietnamese hookers in a Saigon cathouse, another with a “Donut Dolly”, and a couple with an older Air Force nurse who was the greatest freak in bed I’d encountered in my life at the time. (This despite having a wife waiting at home, and on that count alone, not exactly something to be proud of, in retrospect; but the sort of thing a young man does in a place where death will be breathing down his neck again a couple of days hence). If I had any film or pictures of any of it (I didn’t), I’d have burned them; not exactly my finest hour, or a memory I’d want to share with my wife, or any other intimate partner in the future, for that matter. Some of our past is best remembered for whatever lessons it taught us, and otherwise left alone.

        7. Emily, the original

          S.,

          The other thing is if he asks.   If he asks, it’s a difficult place to be in but I wouldn’t lie because then it becomes about the lie, not whatever happens. A man asking and then sulking over the answer is as ridiculous as the thread where the woman asked her boyfriend if she was as hot as Angelina Jolie. Don’t ask questions you don’t really want to know the answers to.

        8. S.

          @ Emily

          I don’t know if this husband asked.   But it does sound like he was patient and trying to work with what his wife wanted to do and what he wanted as well.   He may have asked, it may have come up in that context, doesn’t matter.   She said one guy before him.   Which clearly isn’t true.

          But your pointis well-made, don’t ask something you don’t really want the answer to.   It’s unclear in this discussion whether people want to know or not. I don’t think I care to know unless it’s somehow going to impact me or our current relationship.   Is there evidence in the Cloud?   Does someone have herpes and sent my guy a letter? Is there a child, is the footage about to break on TMZ?   Then yeah, I think being upfront is a nice courtesy.   Not required, but nice.   (Herpes notice is required since that’s a health risk.)

          I think it differs for men.   Like if a guy liked his ex-girl using a strap-on with him, but then refused to for me when I asked, it wouldn’t devastate me.   I’d be disappointed and confused, but I’d respect his no.   Same with oral sex or any other act.   Seeing it on screen is . . . difficult.   But I don’t think I’d change my whole view of who he is.   If he murdered someone years ago, yes.   But if I married him and accepted that oral sex was forever off the table (sniff!) then seeing him on video enjoying it with another woman seven years earlier would hurt (seeing your man have sex with another woman isn’t pleasant regardless of what they are doing) but I don’t think I’d be ready for divorce over it.

          I wouldn’t think, ‘he just doesn’t want to go down on me‘.   I’d think, ‘Something has radically changed in him from then to now.’ I’d be curious what that was, but I wouldn’t necessarily think it was about me.

          Now, if the tape was made last week, that’s a different story.   But that’s not the case here.   This was the past and sometimes the past should stay in the past unless there is a compelling reason it’s coming forth today.

        9. Chris

          S. people are getting hung up on specific acts she may or may not be willing to do, but what if the key is that she wasn’t very enthusiastic for sex with her husband. Passive, didn’t seem to enjoy it much, etc. And naturally he wasn’t happy about this (again, I’m guessing), but if he assumed she had always been this way, that she just had a low libido, he would reluctantly accept this is just the way she is.

          Her (supposedly) having a low partner count would confirm this in his mind. And then he finds evidence that she apparently used to enjoy sex a great deal, but just not with him now, would be devastating.

        10. Lisa

          I suspect the reason that the woman did not want to do those things with her husband was because he was a judgmental whiny jerk.

        11. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          If I had any film or pictures of any of it (I didn’t), I’d have burned them; not exactly my finest hour, or a memory I’d want to share with my wife, or any other intimate partner in the future, for that matter. Some of our past is best remembered for whatever lessons it taught us, and otherwise left alone. I’m of the mind that what happened in the past should stay in the past. What if you tell a current partner something you did and she’s completely put off by it? What if it’s something she can’t get out of her head? And I have to be honest … whenever a men starts talking about his past threesomes … I always assume he’s testing the waters to see how I respond and what I’d be down to do. And/or he’s bragging, and the whole conversation puts me off.  

  5. 25
    loubelle

    i was with my ex for 5 years. He is 36. he had erectile dysfunction from day we met. i stayed with him because i thought if i had ‘lady problems’ id hope he would stick around. however, the lack of intimacy as well as his defensiveness helped (as well as other things) to destroy the relationship. It wasnt the E.D it was his attitude and the pity me stance he took. I was trying to help and i tried to be compassionate and work on it with him, but it never worked. He took meds for it odd time. we must have had sex about 10 times in 5 year, a couple successful sessions thats it. it was awful. whilst i was supportive, i became very self conscious when usually im quite self assured and body confident. At the end of the relationship i was downtrodden and felt unattractive. He never complimented me and i always looked nice and always took care of myself. i understand alot about E.D, i researched for hours over the years. Please understand how it affects your partner who doesnt suffer with E.D, compliment them and make them feel attractive even if you cant ‘get it up’, it destroys them too. He was very self absorbed and played the victim constantly.He had two bad relationships where they both cheated and he said that was start of his problems (he lied alot so im not sure). though i never cheated on him, i was with him 5 years and he still had E.D. he said he didnt watch porn and he ‘said’ he wasnt gay. then he said he was demisexual after 4 year. if he was demisexual then he would have had no problem getting it up after 5 years lol. i suspect something is going on and not thinking im ‘ too hot for anyone not to get it up’ but i think he is gay and in the closet, he never seemed interested in touching my lady parts, and believe me i smell good and look good and am clean. i did ask compassionately if he thought he might be gay or bisexual (i had to…you hear many stories of women wasting years with a man who eventually comes out which i think is cruel). The relationship ended not through lack of sex but through lack of intimacy and taking me for granted and other things. i rarely give up and stick relationships for the long haul but this one was far too complex and i had a gut instinct i was wasting my life there. i would be far more hurt down the line than i was when i broke up with him after 5 years. i was doing us both a favour. so yes some men have performance issues at this age, he was in his late 20s by his own account. some performance issues are performance anxiety, some medical reasons which can be helped most of the time. however some are hiding darker secrets, in the closet, porn etc.

    1. 25.1
      Lisa

      The feelings you describe are the same ones I had with my ex who had porn induced ED. I tried to help him, I did so much research I was open and understanding, but nothing ever changed.   And the defensiveness, OMG it was horrible, and as you say a lot worse than the actual ED.

      1. 25.1.1
        Stacy

        @Lisa,

        I went out with a guy from the military in the past who admitted to me that he can only ejaculate by masturbation after watching porn. That was the last date we had. I can’t even deal with that kind of issue.

        1. Lisa

          Agreed. But at least he was honest with you, so you had that option to leave earlier rather than later. Most men are not.

        2. loubelle

          and good for you lisa. i would say same , now. i dealt with that issue , he didnt.. not fully it was soul destroying for me, after 5 years i broke it off, and henever even chased me lol after everything i did for him and after all the sacrifices i made in 5 years. he was a user and when he had no other use for me he let me go with no objection. i think tbh he was too cowardly to end it himself so waited until id had enough. he would never commit although he made promises he always broken. he lied. he came across as hippy dippy nice caring man, he makes all the right sounds that women want to hear but he delivered b*gger all.

      2. 25.1.2
        loubelle

        i feel our understanding and compassion was our downfall in these instances. They bank on us sticking around if they give the sob story. we as women want to help and at times stick around far too long. im sorry you went through what i did. they can be very selfish. im not sure if it was porn induced, he actulally ‘said’ he had a dislike for porn and what it represents, i was am still confused. he played with my head so much. i do feel he is gay or it could be the porn induced ED. either way lol neither works for me. i disagree with porn. i disagree with men who use owmen as beards for years and take away their futures.

        1. loubelle

          now , i wouldnt date a man with E.D. ever. different if youre already with someone and it happens, as it does sometimes with age, health etc. however a new relationship…no way! never again.

        2. Lisa

          I totally agree with you about our understanding and compassion.   Most men would leave us in a heartbeat if the situation were reversed. But as women if we leave or don’t   understand this we are horrible people, and we are treated as such by society not just our partners.   I know you are out of this now, but there is a great site that helped me called no fap.   There are 100s of women that are facing or have faced this issue, and they felt the exact same way.   The addicts are on there too, and some are very helpful, but others also just confirm what you and i both already know. “How horrible is she for leaving me, for not standing by me?”   But the truth is most of the women stood by for years with no change in the man, and only then did they leave. Men need to lay off the porn and masturbation.   They need to seriously consider how this may effect their future relationships.   And all women need to be aware of porn induced ED and addiction, and ask about it, ask about it early on.

  6. 26
    Stacy

    And that honesty was well appreciated…that way, both our times weren’t waisted and he could find someone who has the fortitude and patience to deal with this sort of issue.

    1. 26.1
      loubelle

      it was a blessing he told you so soon, even if a little startling. honesty is best policy and then we make a choice whether its worth it. you made right decision to leave especially when porn induced, its an addiction and they will prefer it over sex, thats unfair to the woman. id be out of there in a flash now, no ifs or buts. i had the fortitude and patience to deal with it, but it took me 5 year to realise i wasted my time and he had wasted my time. he knew very well alot of women wouldnt hang around with no sex or at least no intimacy, so he held onto me because he knew others wouldnt. theres not many women who go into a new relationship who will stay in it with these sort of problems. they want to be the only woman their man desires, not a fantasy on screen. theres other men out there who are ‘clean’.. and who can get it up. after my experiences after 5 year, no way will i ever get with a man with ed ever again. he destroyed me emotionally. let him pull the woe me card to some other sucker.

  7. 27
    D_M

    If you know that sexual intimacy can be bracketed with specificity for you, explicitly let the other person know. Some folks erroneously assume that the previous partners were just not Don Juan enough. Let them know that no amount petals over the house, candles, bubble baths, sensual massages, or whisk aways to exotic locales will contribute to the furtherance of your sexual chakra. Some of you are probably saying, hold on a minute D_M, I still want those things. No one is saying that you shouldn’t. My point is that romantic gestures are not always altruistic. They come with a hidden expectation of improvements in the relationship, in and out of the bedroom. If you are involved with one of those sensual types, let them know what they are signing up for.

    Otherwise, they are likely to become highly sexually frustrated. Yes, you are still having sex, but it’s the kind of sex that’s missing. There is a segment of the population where sexual intimacy is a nonverbal extension of themselves. Every touch and caress is meant to convey a level of tenderness that shows appreciation for your physical imperfections. You are embraced in an improvisational dance, while being savored like a fine bordeaux. No one is trying to twist anything off or drill for oil. Hips are rhythmically rolled, not thrusted. This type of sexual symbiosis doesn’t occur on a predetermined timeline.

    It would be disingenuous of me not to acknowledge that some folks are influenced by porn, but there are others that are not. Try not to lump all of your partners with sexual endurance in the same basket. Wanting a longer duration for sexual intimacy doesn’t have to be rooted in porn. S, readily admits that her toe curling Os tend to occur during longer stints. I highly suspect that she isn’t the only woman thankful for a partner with multiple gears.

    1. 27.1
      Lisa

      I used to think that having a partner who lasted forever might be good too, until I had one, and then it was not.   I think the difference is that you have no choice.   So if you say want a quickie while the kids are asleep that never happens.   Studies show that men that have delayed ejaculation, for whatever reason porn or not, have less sex and are less sexually satisifed overall.     That is not to say that there are not women that enjoy 20 minute sex sessions.   But in long term relationships, where children and jobs come in, it is just not realistic.     With all my non DE exes we could have a quickie session in the am before work, so I would initiate it.   But if we had time, they could also last longer, as long as we both desired.   With my DE ex everytime I thought of initiating I remembered we would be late for work, etc.      So while I am not lumping every woman into one basket in this regard, I think just looking at it like this will help.     These men have less sex.   That may be fine with him, or it may not.     But the whole thing about it is having control versus not having control.     So if you want a long sex session and so does your partner, then the guy can hold out.   But if you want a short sex session that’s not possible.   I mean for me I could not move my jaw for days, I was in pain, and I was just bored, and it was like this EVERY time.      It is also quite frustrating when you are trying so hard to please him, and nothing you do works.   Sex leaves you disappointed, feeling like a failure, in pain, and hence there is no way in heck you are going to want that again.   Why would you?   I have had plenty of partners with sexual endurance, BY CHOICE, meaning they wanted to last long.   Partners with DE do not have a choice. So either you as a woman accept that this is your sex life, 20 minute sessions, him only orgasming by his own hand, or orgasming only 1 out of 20 times, then that is fine.   But variety is the spice of life right?   I think even the woman who enjoyed long sex while single, would grow tired of this in marriage.   It’s just not realistic.   And the men end up masturbating all the time since they cannot perform during sex.   The intimacy is gone.

    2. 27.2
      S.

      If you know that sexual intimacy can be bracketed with specificity for you, explicitly let the other person know.

      I don’t understand this statement.   But I am trying to understand, honestly I am.   It reads at first to me as if a man is trying to judge who a woman is sexually from who she is with him. It seems rather an inflexible mindset. It’s like a man wants to believe that what you’ve done with him is all you’ve ever done.   There are no other men in the world but him.   And that’s bullshit.   And if there are other men in the world, some men say never ever mention it. Others say, please let him know everything.

      Let’s start earlier.   Why are men so beholden to this idea that what a woman does sexuality has something to do with him? I was multi-orgasmic before my first lover.   I didn’t know that but it became clear just making out.   That’s who I am.   It doesn’t matter who I’m with. Some men bring it out more and some don’t.   But that’s who I am.   Let’s choose something less charged. I’m generally a chatty person.   Some people bring it out more, around others I’m quieter.   It doesn’t mean that when I’m quieter that person I’m with I don’t like them or they’ve done something wrong.   Maybe it’s better to be a listener sometimes.   No one would ever say, “S, please explicitly tell every person you meet that your chattiness may be specifically bracketed for them.” That would be ridiculous. I get to be different with different people.   I don’t have to tell them.   I just do.

      The issue, if we back it up, is that a man’s idea of himself is so tied up with his performance as a lover which is what this entire original post is about.   And how we as women try to preserve that idea.   But it’s difficult to do that–and I do value that, I don’t want to tear my man down sexually–and still have an open and honest dialogue about your sex life.

      There is a segment of the population where sexual intimacy is a nonverbal extension of themselves. Every touch and caress is meant to convey a level of tenderness that shows appreciation for your physical imperfections.

      It’s a bit confusing. It’s a level of appreciation but then earlier you say romantic gestures aren’t always altruistic. Which is it? I’m not saying it can’t be both, but I’m trying to understand what you mean.

      S, readily admits that her toe curling Os tend to occur during longer stints. I highly suspect that she isn’t the only woman thankful for a partner with multiple gears.

      LOL.   Yep, those Os take the time and finesse you describe.   But as I said, I don’t need that every time.   Very memorable, though, when they do happen.

      One thing I should note: when having a session with the toe-curling orgasms, with someone where we both really took our time and were selfless with one another during, it’s very difficult for me to not get very attached to him afterward.   Orgasm is awesome and includes a flood of attachment hormones immediately after.   So yep, feelings!   Plus the fact that I’m having sex in the first place means for me I already had feelings for the person. (I mentioned emotional safety in my comment to 19.1.1) You can also get addicted to having that intense a release all in itself. Lotta stuff going on there all at once.

      1. 27.2.1
        D_M

        S,

        “If you know that sexual intimacy can be bracketed with specificity for you, explicitly let the other person know.”

        This statement is inline with your previous comment about clear communication. I was just offering another perspective on the interplay between two people. My reference to romantic gestures, was my attempt to highlight that one person might be trying to improve things, while the other person believes their love life is fine. I am not arguing that there is a specific way to enjoy sexual intimacy. Two people might not be sexually compatible and that is perfectly okay.

        1. S.

          I’ve really appreciated all of your comments on this post, D_M.   Really made me think!

          Yep, to try to subtly improve things, I don’t know. It’s hit or miss.   The other person might generally think things are fine and not pick up on cues the other wants more.

          It’s amazing that people can stay together for such a long time, having sex, and still can be sexually incompatible.   It happens.

  8. 28
    loubelle

    i am and one of the most altruistic person youll meet..in this instance it was my downfgall., i said and did all the ‘right ‘ things over 5 years to help him recover from his trauma and in that created my own trauma whilst he skipped off. i always went and go into relationships them knowing my ‘expectations romantically, i could have never been so honest! the issue was that he said the same words but no actions…so how do we decipher! we cant until we have been in it for while. however, i do say trust ure gut, i should have 5 years ago but tbh i wanted to help and maybe play the martyr, when, i had nothing to prove because i had integrity and was is a good woman. it is the men in this insatnce when i gave him all that. no fanciness, no psychological bums, he is what he is and he took me for a fool. that is it. he could never be sexually frustrated with me i was more out there than him and he also knew it was low key if he wanted, he had the whole package but flunked! thats it. i was used. thats it!. i also said , it mighht not be pron enduced, i tyhink he has alot of problems, and i tried in 5 year to help, he can f*ck off now. i lost alot whilst he gained here. and i wont forget the lack od touch, concern, love when he was on a woe me episode. you should send your reply to my ex. its better aimed at him. no one is lumping their partners into the porn bracket, completely opposite if u read my posts, however women with experiences of this happening, theres no argument and no matter how hairy fairy you go about it they were hurt and rightly so!. i dont wnat a partner with multiple gears i want one faithful, intimate enough to connect, and communication, im not over communicating anymore to men who want mummying and looking after. been there done it. peter pans not invited anymore. nm the psycholgical excuses. and they are excuses. narcisstics use psycholgical excuses and i dont fall for it anymore. i know my mind, ive been a good girlfriend and was taken for granted, that is it!. yes i own my own faults for allowing it, but i would never diffuse his responsibility, which were the main reasons for us splitting up.

  9. 29
    loubelle

    contd:

    i played his counsellor for 4 year, until i realised…..

    i wasn his counsellor i was his girlfriend! sums it up

  10. 30
    Jeremy

    Evan, I liked your response to Tron in terms of balancing the male POV with the female.   It was necessary.   However, you wrote one thing with which I really, really disagree: “Another thing I can barely understand. What guy marries for SEX? If you’re marrying for easy access to sex, you should get your head examined. And if you are one of those guys who thinks that’s the purpose of marriage, it only reveals how little you respect or value women in that you think that’s the primary value they bring to a relationship.”

     

    Men and women each have a subconscious pie-chart of things they want from marriage – reasons why they choose to marry.   Each of our pie-charts include companionship, emotional support, intimacy, lifestyle, kids (usually), and SEX.   I don’t believe that the substance of the male vs female pie-charts are different, but the weight of each factor is definitely different.   And for men, sex is definitely a much larger percentage of the chart – much larger than 5%.   I think it is so important that your female readership understand this, because my experience is that women often assume men’s pie chart is (or should be) the same as theirs.   When you write that sex should be 5% of a good relationship and 95% of a bad one, it is important to understand what that means – when a man is happy with his sex life, he only thinks about it 5% of the time, and much more when he is unhappy.   But that doesn’t mean that sex is only 5% of his motivation to marry or stay married.   “What kind of man marries for easy access to sex?” – a male one?   A regular one?   An average one?   It isn’t by any means the only reason he marries, but it’s much more than 5%.   Take sex out and all the other reasons won’t be enough to keep him happy.

     

    This needs to be understood.   Otherwise we are left with Mrs. Happy’s model of the “happy marriage” in which the wife has lost her libido and expects that the husband should be fine with his remaining 95%.

    1. 30.1
      S.

      I would only say that a couple should consider sharing their pie chart percentages before marriage.   I almost think they should have the same percentage for sex since they do it together, but that’s less necessary.   If a man thinks it’s 20% of their time together and the woman is thinking it’s 5% of their time, then I see problems down the road.   Quality and quantity matter as well.   Some people would rather a quickie three times a week, while another wants the full event three times a week. Whoa, discrepancy!

      Also courting sex and married sex differs. That should be discussed too.   And what to do in emergencies.   And what constitutes an emergency.   I remember your points above.   Six months of little to no sex after a baby is frustrating, but may seem like a temporary thing to some.   Six years after a baby with little to no sex is a lifestyle and relationship change.   Some changes can’t be predicted.   But if sex is 20% – 30% of one’s reasons for marrying then I think a thorough discussion should be had about expectations from it before marrying.

      1. 30.1.1
        Emily, the original

        I would also say that if either party is dissatisfied with their sex life, those feelings will bleed into their feelings about the rest of the marriage and sex will take on a greater importance than it would if both parties were content. It will loom like a huge shadow. It will weigh on the person’s mind who is unhappy, while the one who doesn’t want to do it as much won’t think about it much at all.

    2. 30.2
      Evan Marc Katz

      To make your case about how I was minimizing sex, you left out the part where I said that sex was a “unique and important” part of relationships; Without it, you’re sunk. But it remains a fraction of a good marriage.

      Great sex doesn’t save a marriage where she has anger issues and he never wants to spend quality time. No matter how much people extol the virtues of sex, it doesn’t elevate a bad marriage to a good one. It is a part of a complicated formula, and if you make it too important (man: I don’t want to listen to her; I just want her to fuck me and fall asleep), what you have is a relationship doomed to fail. The men who emphasize sex the most are underestimating everything else that comes with marriage, to their detriment. Thus, if you want to make sex responsible for a big percentage of your happiness, don’t be too surprised if you find fewer female takers, and that the ones you do find have issues if their own.

      1. 30.2.1
        Jeremy

        That is what I thought you meant and I agree totally. I just worried that some readers would misunderstand the message and believe that good men should think sex does not really matter in marriage as much as it does,   and that if they do believe so they are not quality men. There is a lot of that messaging going around elsewhere.

    3. 30.3
      Mrs Happy

      Dear Jeremy @ #30,

      your above stated “happy marriage” definition is not my personal model!   It is an observation I make after listening to people, and have been surprised by – how many women are less into sex as they age, couple up long term, and bear children.   This wasn’t part of my knowledge bank during my 20’s and 30’s, thus my surprise. Nor do I think it’s a new thing, as I have a book published in the 1800’s by a Reverend’s wife, regarding how to minimise sexual requests in marriage.

      I actually find it odd that something so important to humans – sex – is not more clearly understood and openly discussed, in all of its changes through the life cycle.   There is such a veil of silence over its specifics in our society.

    4. 30.4
      ScottH

      When I was struggling with my sexless marriage, I thought of sex as a marital nutrient (one of many).   if I was deprived of that nutrient, I would become sick and that illness would dominate my being, just like any other illness.   When we are well nourished and healthy, we don’t have the burden of an illness and are free to pursue higher order needs.   We don’t sit around lamenting our vitamin sex deficiency.   It does seem that people (and the genders?) have different nutritional needs.   And sex is an essential nutrient for many and can only be provided externally.

      Something like that anyway…..

  11. 31
    Jeremy

    The discussion about the video has once again led us to discussions of the importance (or lack thereof) of sexual history.   And once again, we are hearing that a person’s sexual history should not be important to the current partner because the history does not necessarily mean anything about the present.   Lisa even wrote that she thinks that men often find themselves in sexless relationships because they judge a woman on her history.   She is wrong, though. The most common reason men find themselves in sexless marriages is because they judge women on their history with THEMSELVES.

     

    During the courtship, things are hot and heavy – and they assume things will remain so.   The “happily ever after fallacy.”   Past performance is not necessarily any indication of future performance.   The assumption that it will be leads people to invest poorly and to marry poorly.

     

    So if one can not judge future performance based on the past, how can one choose a good partner?   By understanding not WHAT the person did in the past (with them or with others), but WHY the person did it.   The video guy’s wife, the one who was in the gang-bang – what should he have learned from the fact that she did it?   Well, if the REASON she did it and then hid it was that she was traumatized by it, he should have learned that this woman will always be sexually inhibited and will never be the sort of partner he wants.   If the REASON she did it was because she enjoyed it but does not enjoy sex with him, he should learn that she is manipulative and what she wants to give in marriage is not what he wants to receive.

     

    The fact that a woman is hot and heavy with a man during the courtship stage is not necessarily meaningful to his future with her.   WHY is she so?   Is it because she is attracted to him?   Or because she is attracted to a life with him?   If the latter, once she gets that life, her behavior will change unless the former is also true.   Such a man would do well to understand the motivation.

     

    In other words, saying that a person’s history is irrelevant is false.   The WHAT of history is not necessarily relevant, but the WHY is totally relevant.   The “why” predicts the future.   And you can’t begin to ascertain the why until you know the “what.”   We can ignore the past if all we’re looking for is hook-ups or uncommitted relationships.   But if you are going to sign a legal contract obligating you to divide your assets and pay alimony cheques should your partner renege on the spirit of your relationship, you’d do well to inquire about history.

    1. 31.1
      fleurdl123

      Well said.

    2. 31.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Jeremy,

      Granted, I haven’t read all of the comments on this particular post, largely because I don’t find any educational value for myself in beating the sexual history horse yet again.   To me it seems there was the start of a convo about apples and we switched to oranges–the quandary of what a woman’s sexual history means to a man.   The *apple* being that if a woman is sexually restricted before marriage, a man should not marry her if he does not want to accept her limited sexuality and plans on changing her after marriage.

      In the gangbang video scenario, the husband did not find out that his wife had engaged in a repertoire of sexual acts with other men prior to him, that he wanted to engage in with her, until he found the video evidence of it.   What he did know was that she wasn’t interested in giving him oral sex or having intercourse in certain positions  with him before marriage.   So he decided to marry her anyway and “work with her” i.e. try to change her.   The take home point is that if his sexual satisfaction was going to, in part, be dependent upon her changing to participate  in activities with him it sounds like he very much wanted, then it would have been wise for him to not marry her at all.

      I totally get the point that what this man and ezamuzed in 32 went through was painful.   But the solution is to take a person’s behavior as it is before marriage.   This is them.   Don’t marry them if your future relationship satisfaction is contingent upon your spouse changing or evolving in a way they weren’t willing to pre-marriage.   No one thinks it’s a good idea to marry someone with an explosive temper, an alcohol problem, or bad financial habits thinking they can “work with them” and it will magically change after marriage.

      As you have said many times, once into a long marriage, you may have to deal with a partner’s lack of libido or loss of interest.   Why start married life when there are big areas of sexual incompatibility that are present pre-marriage?   Nothing about getting married will improve it.

      1. 31.2.1
        Jeremy

        I have no argument with your post.   Indeed, a person to whom sex is important should not marry someone whose sexual appetite is much less, or to whom sex is much less important.   Marrying someone and expecting them to change in the way we want is folly.   My point (the “orange”) was to say that just because 2 people’s sexual appetites DO seem to match during courtship is not necessarily an indication of the future.   The fact that the appetites match during courtship is far less important than why they match.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Jeremy,

          Exactly.   Things change and problems may (will?) arise during a long marriage.   So keep your eyes open and don’t go in to it when there are already red flags waving in your sightline.   Get off to the best start possible.

        2. Jeremy

          Yes.   And understand motivations.   Yours and your partner’s.

  12. 32
    ezamuzed

    I was similar to that guy who discovered the sex tape. I was married to woman who  I know did things like oral sex to other guys she didn’t even date but refused to do it to me during our long marriage. Nothing made me feel more  worthless and unloved knowing she didn’t care about providing me the same benefits they got. I just wish the woman here would try to understand how painful it can be instead of just dismissing guys like my former self  as wrong  or sexist. It might be wrong from your point of view but the emotional pain I  felt was very real.

    The good news for me is that I finally got the courage to leave and then rebuild myself  into a  much better person from the inside out. Now I’m the  man woman will give blow jobs to without a commitment. Four years after leaving my ex and just being happy in all aspects of my life including the sex I’m thinking about settling down. I’m not sure I like Evan’s advice to hold out on a guy that you really like. I understand where it is coming from. I suppose it depends on  her current situation. I been on a few dates with woman who reveal early on that they have a fuck buddy to meet their sexual needs while they search for  THE one. (Heck I’ve been that fuck buddy to multiple woman at once while they search for a LTR) If they made me wait while having sex with this other guy that would be a complete show stopper for me.

    1. 32.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @ezamuzed

      I been on a few dates with woman who reveal early on that they have a fuck buddy to meet their sexual needs while they search for  THE one. (Heck I’ve been that fuck buddy to multiple woman at once while they search for a LTR) If they made me wait while having sex with this other guy that would be a complete show stopper for me.

      While I concur with your position, you will rapidly find yourself beating your head against the wall fighting the rationalization of that odd female behavior on this blog. If I was looking for a girlfriend and a woman disclosed to me that she had ongoing sex buddy relationship while seeking the “one,” then I wish her the best of luck. There is a reason why that pure sex relationship exists, and it is more than just as a replacement for a BoB.

      1. 32.1.1
        Kenley

        I guess the rules of engagement are different for men.   Because men are always just looking for sex and then happen to stumble onto The One, they by default are allowed to have sex while looking for The One.   But because women are always looking for The One, they are penalized for having sex with guys they know aren’t The One while searching.   Why do women have sex with these guys – because they are sexual beings with sexual needs just like men.   So, both sexes are essentially engaging in the same behavior but women are penalized for doing it.   And, there are still lots of men who will not commit to women who have sex with them too quickly because they feel that they will give it up   with any guy.   In my mind, all of this boils down to the fact that women’s sexuality is more constrained and judged than men’s.   Even in the discussion of the woman in the gang bang video, but both men and women indicated that there must be something wrong with a woman who has a gang bang – she was forced, she has a mental illness, she needed the money.   No sane, whole woman wants that.   Is that true for the men who engaged in the gang bang?   Are they damaged too?   I guess not.   We look at women’s sexuality through a lense of control and victimology.   So, we can’t conceive of women enjoying anything but the most vanilla sex.   Even when women might say they enjoy something off they beaten path, they will often be told they are delusional.   But, we don’t look at men’s sexuality in the same way.

        I read this blog everyday, multiple times a day.   And, the more I read it, the more I really wonder do men even like women.   Besides sex and a display of status, do women even have value to men?

        1. Jeremy

          Hi Kenley.   You asked the question that I think lonely women ask every day.   “Do men even like women?   Do women even have value to men?” Would you believe that lonely men ask the same question about women just as much?

           

          I think that it isn’t so much about what we each want or value.   I think it is largely about what we fear.   Men and women both fear that the other gender doesn’t value them or want them….but the expression of that fear differs.   Women are afraid of being used and abandoned by men.   Of men pumping and dumping them.   Of men using them and leaving them broke and with kids to take care of.   Of men forcing their will upon women.   Men are afraid of being used by women too.   Of being used for provisioning but not desired, of being stuck with a choice of being used by a woman and staying with her versus being used by a women and not staying with her.   Of having her will imposed upon him by force of the law, with no regard to his own wishes.   Both fears are valid.   Men and women sometimes judge each other harshly, using false heuristics, because of these fears.   Men judge women for their sexual history, women judge men for their financial history.   And if you don’t believe me, look at stats of how women date online.

           

          Getting back to your question, it’s not that men’s only use for women is sex.   It’s not that men don’t like or value women.   Men generally love women.   But it’s that we don’t get married with the expectation that our one and only sexual partner for the rest of our lives will continually say no to our sexual desires.   When my wife asked me for a bigger house (which I would have to pay for), I found a way to say yes even though it was difficult for me, and even though I was happy where I was.   When my wife asked me to have a 4th child, which would demand many sacrifices from me and years of extra work beyond when I’d have liked to retire, I found a way to say yes.   Whatever my wife feels is important to her, I find a way to say yes.   That is what good spouses do.   That is how we show love.   That is how we hold a marriage together.   When we get into the habit of saying no to things that are important to our spouses, when we refuse to speak in their love language because we don’t want to, we are ultimately saying that these boundaries of ours are more important than our marriage.   And if that is how we feel, we should not feel entitled to the relationship.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Kenley

          Because men are always just looking for sex and then happen to stumble onto The One, they by default are allowed to have sex while looking for The One.

          For me, it is not about the idea that a woman is having sex while looking for a the “one.”   It is about the fact she is having continuing NSA sex with a guy for a reason, and that reason is usually because it is good sex, which places any guy who comes along at a major disadvantage. You have to understand that a lot of guys have been the men with whom a woman was having continuing NSA sex while searching for the “one.”   Having been on that side, I would never knowingly sign up to be the man who is courting her.   That is a job for what is known as an Average Frustrated Chump (AFC) in the manosphere.   I had a woman who was engaged to be married who used to come over to my house every week for sex when I was in my early thirties.   I did not know that she even had a boyfriend until she told me that she was getting married and asked if we could continue the arrangement after she took her vows because the sex was so much better than she was receiving from her fiancee. I told her that she needed to work on showing her fiancee how to please her because we were done. I may be cad at times, but I have standards. I would never knowingly sleep with another man’s woman, and I lose respect for any man who is having NSA sex with a woman who does not bow out when he discovers that she has been on more than date with another man.   Knowingly cuckolding another man is one of the lowest acts that a man can do to another man.   It demonstrates a complete lack of honor. There are plenty of women who do not have a man to stoop that low. A woman has a weird sense of what is right when she believes that it is okay to cuckold a guy in whom she is interested while making him wait to protect her heart.   I am sorry, but that rationalization is totally fucked up.   That kind of crap leaves a relationship damaging emotional scar on a man.   It is what drives men into the arms of the manosphere.

        3. kenley

          @YAG

          Got it– woman can’t have ongoing great NSA sex with only one guy because the long term guy she is seeking will feel threatened.   So then is the acceptable alternative for a woman to have a handful of mediocre one night stands or must she be celibate until she finds The One?   Do the same rules apply for men? If not, why don’t they?

        4. Adrian

          Hello Kenley,

          You said “I read this blog everyday, multiple times a day.   And, the more I read it, the more I really wonder do men even like women.   Besides sex and a display of status, do women even have value to men?

          It sounds like you are in the early stages of what a few of us regulars refer to as blog-jadedness.    To fight it off some  of us took breaks from this great site for a few months to recharge and  some of us did not…

          Now upon reading some of the comments of the few who decided to remain  I can see the edge and lack of empathy that was once there…

          Another thing that I find that helps in fighting off blog-jadedness  is to just read Evan’s response and skip the comments section also.

          …     …     …

          With all that said, I am sure that if you look very closely within your real world life you will see that you know many men that don’t act towards women the way that some commenters say they do and you will remember that you know many men who value their girlfriends and wives. Men who love and happy court overweight women, women with children, women that make more, women who are taller, women who are over the age of (insert whatever age men say women are suppose to be undesirable to men), women who don’t look like celebs, etc.

          Anyway just some friendly advice. If you read the book “Dataclysm” he discusses how science has shown that these online communities are as real to many of us as our offline lives…In my opinion  that is why it is so easy to become influenced by all the positivity or negativity in the comments section; Evan is as real to me as if I was talking to my older cousin… that is also why I feel the comments section is so addictive because to many of us the conversations are as real as if I picked up the phone to call my cousin Joey.

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Kenley

          Got it– woman can’t have ongoing great NSA sex with only one guy because the long term guy she is seeking will feel threatened.

          No, what I am saying is that if a woman is seeing a man who is making an honest attempt to court her and she wants him to wait until he commits for sex, then maybe she should extend the courtesy of not sleeping with other men during the courtship.   I am not talking about a guy who a woman thinks has potential that makes an effort to see her every few weeks. That guy is not serious.   I am talking about a guy who makes an effort to spend time with her every weekend and puts forth the effort to call her during the week.   A woman is more than a passing fad to a man who is putting forth that much effort, especially a woman who is making him wait.   Having sex with a different man in this context is effectively cuckolding the man who putting forth the effort to court you.   If you cannot see the wrong in that behavior, you have twisted sense of right and wrong.   Do you know how a man feels when he discovers that woman he has been pursuing as more than hookup is having sex with another man?   Well, all you need to do is go read the TRP reddit to get an idea. It is not pretty. A overwhelming percentage of those men have been in this situation, and it forever taints a man’s view of women.

          If women want to hold on to the anachronism known as chivalry, the they have to understand that the flip side anachronism is chastity.   If a man is being truly chivalrous, a woman owes it to him to be chaste while he is patiently pursuing her.   She is asking him to expose himself to her, to make himself emotionally vulnerable. Having sex with another man while this dance is occurring is like kicking him the balls.

        6. Kenley

          @YAG. A man can’t be cockhold if the woman isn’t committed to him already.   In the strictest definition of the word, the man is actually married to a woman who is cheating on him or he is taking care of another man’s children.    So in the scenario we are discusisng, you are basically saying that the woman has to behave as if she is part of a monogamous couple before they have actually agreed to be a monogamous couple.   I have asked this question twice and you have not answered.   Does the no sex with other people rule apply to the man as well?   If not, you know that is totally hypocritical.

          If a man has not explicitly locked it down, he should have no expectation that the woman he is dating is chaste…just as she should have no expectation that he is chaste.    In the age of online dating, I think it is foolish to expect otherwise.    However, when I have met men who indicate that they only date one woman at a time and expect the same, I let them know that we don’t have compatible dating styles and we typically part ways.   I don’t believe that one style of dating is right or wrong, they are just different.   As with most things in dating, you just need to find someone whose style or approach is in sync with yours.

           

        7. Yet Another Guy

          @Kenley

          Does the no sex with other people rule apply to the man as well?   If not, you know that is totally hypocritical.

          Do you honestly believe that if a man is putting forth that much effort, he still has emotional/desire bandwidth left for other women?   If you do, then you are the female version of a Red Pill Man.   A guy is who planning to be with you every weekend and calling you during the week is serious.   The keyword here is “calling,” not “texting.” A telephone call is an intimate contact that requires a man to be focused on you and only you. A guy can hold multiple text conversations because it is a   medium that does not require real-time response. That is why guys who are not serious love to text.   Guys who are just looking to hookup and have fun also do not invest that much effort, and they sure has heck do not wait for sex.

          A guy who is waiting to commit is more than likely being cautious because he has learned that committing too early can land him in the friend zone due to appearing to be needy.   Why? Because women treat men who commit quickly just like men treat women who have sex quickly in a courting context.   Both are seen as demonstrations of low self-worth at best, acts of desperation at worst. No one wants anyone who can be had easily because that person can be taken away easily, and no one wants to make oneself vulnerable in that situation.

           

        8. Kenley

          @YAG

          I don’t presume to know what anyone is thinking because I am not a mind reader.    I also don’t believe that ALL men think alike or that All women think alike.   Therefore,   when I engage with men or women, I engage with them as individuals not as a groups.   So, unless a man explicitly tells me he wants to be in a long term relationship with me, I don’t assume that what’s he wants despite how much “effort” he may be putting forward.

    2. 32.2
      Emily, the original

      ezamuzed

      I been on a few dates with woman who reveal early on that they have a fuck buddy to meet their sexual needs while they search for  THE one.  

      Yuck. What a tacky thing to tell you. Why would you tell that to someone you were trying to date? That would be a deal breaker, whether a man or woman said it.

  13. 33
    ezamused

    @GoWithTheFlow, from 31.2: I think an even better solution is to turn yourself into a guy that woman have a strong sexual desire for.

    @Yet Another Guy: I disagree about beating my head against the wall trying to find someone. The vast majority of woman I’ve dated I’m sleeping with  somewhere around the 3rd date and there has been no commitment. Two of those I considered making my girlfriend at some point but then decided not to.

    @Kenley: I’m not sure if your response was directed at myself or YAG. I assume it is with YAG since I never suggested I cared that woman are having non committed relationships while looking for the one. Actually I would prefer she is doing that because then it means she really likes sex. What I want is for the “rules of engagement” as you put it to be equal for me and this other guy she is having sex with. Making me prove I’m  ready to commit by withholding sex while some other guy is getting sex is  the problem. Does that make sense to you?

    @Jeremy “Men judge women for their sexual history, women judge men for their financial history” is such a vast generalization. Certain men and certain woman yes. But  the vast majority of men would be willing to commit to  a hot woman who they know had a crazy sexual history.  And  I believe  most woman  just want a guy to be financially stable but have a lot of other great traits. There are shit loads of guys in tech who make great money but cannot find a girlfriend because they are boring.

    1. 33.1
      Emily, the original

      ezamused,

      I think an even better solution is to turn yourself into a guy that woman have a strong sexual desire for.

      Well, women’s desire isn’t generic, and what one woman finds appealing can leave another cold. Plus, while women do place value on appearance, a man who is considered desirable is also personable and charismatic. He has a certain kind of energy. I don’t know how a man acquires that, but it’s not a matter of simply lifting weights or becoming more confident, though those two actions will help.

      1. 33.1.1
        GoWiththeFlow

        ezamused,

        Yes, as Emily and I discussed awhile back, we could easily go out guy hunting together because we would never try and compete with each other for the same man.   Our tastes and preferences are very different.   You cannot be all that to all women.   No matter how much you try to transform yourself into a chic magnet, some if not many women will still fail to respond.

        Given that I think men should consider my solution first:   If a woman won’t blow you or do it doggy style with you, and that’s something you consider an integral part of a satisfying sex life, DON’T MARRY HER!

        1. Emily, the original

          Hi GoWiththeFlow,

          Yes, as Emily and I discussed awhile back, we could easily go out guy hunting together because we would never try and compete with each other for the same man.  

          I remember that conversation but I can’t remember what your type was.

  14. 34
    ezamused

    @emily I absolutely agree. A man or woman acquires  energy and charisma  by working on their social skills.  A good place to start is  deliberately going out and having conversations with people. There are tons of resources out there in books and on the internet. The age old book “How to Win Friends and Influence People”. The website and podcast “The Art of Charm” is another good resource.

    @GoWithTheFlow I would say “person magnet” instead of chic magnet. And it doesn’t matter if all woman respond. As long as enough do where you get a feeling of abundance. Where you have more woman interested than you can possibly have time for. Your advice is correct, but until a person gains enough self respect, confidence and an abundance mentality it is too easy to get stuck thinking this is the only person who wants you. This goes for men and woman alike.

    1. 34.1
      Emily, the original

      ezamused,

      as long as enough do where you get a feeling of abundance. Where you have more woman interested than you can possibly have time for. Your advice is correct, but until a person gains enough self respect, confidence and an abundance mentality it is too easy to get stuck thinking this is the only person who wants you.  

      I think the abundance mentality is good to have about everything in life lest you grab at whatever’s in front of you. Here’s a question for you: So you get to a place where you have a lot of options, do you rank them in terms of preference or are there several who are on the “A team,” and you’d be equally happy with any of those women? (I’m curious to see how a man thinks about his options.)

  15. 35
    ezamuzed

    Emily (the original, not crispy)

    Maybe abundance  mentality isn’t perfect either because you have too many options and you don’t know what to grab.  We cannot win! lol

    There is a lot of  nuance in what you are asking, so I’ll answer your question indirectly. I’ve never been in a  state  where I’ve been intently looking for a girlfriend.  Where I’ve made it my mission and I’m weighing a bunch of options.  One of the ways I try to live  my life is with complete honesty (but not openness) in my relationships. So if a woman wants to know where she stands in my life, if I see her as being a long term partner she should ask. If it isn’t the answer she wants to hear she still should accept it and not hope I’ll change my mind. I’m pretty sure I never will.

     

    1. 35.1
      Emily, the original

      ezamused,  

      One of the ways I try to live  my life is with complete honesty (but not openness) in my relationships. So if a woman wants to know where she stands in my life, if I see her as being a long term partner she should ask. If it isn’t the answer she wants to hear she still should accept it and not hope I’ll change my mind. I’m pretty sure I never will

      I agree in that a woman should listen to and accept what a man tells her he wants, but are you lying by omission? Is it obvious she thinks there is more going on than there is but isn’t asking, and are you just riding the wave because you like what you are getting from her? I don’t have a problem with casual situations, but I think it’s pretty selfish to keep it going when it’s obvious that the other party is completely smitten and you know you will never feel that way and don’t want a relationship with her. The problem with casual is that someone (could be the man or the woman) usually ends up wanting more.

      1. 35.1.1
        ezamused

        @Emily, I certainly don’t feel like I’m lying otherwise I wouldn’t do it. Early on I’ve always had a conversation about what I want from a relationship with them. It is up to them to ask if they want something different after we have been seeing in other for a while. I’m not responsible for their feelings and I’m not responsible for guessing what they want. They are adults. Also in this day and age of online dating it should be assumed that people are not exclusive unless there  has been a conversation stating such.

         

        1. Emily, the original

          ezamused,

          Early on I’ve always had a conversation about what I want from a relationship with them. It is up to them to ask if they want something different after we have been seeing in other for a while.

          That’s fine. I thought your meant you were honest if they asked about what was going on, otherwise you offered no information, so technically you weren’t lying.

          I’m not responsible for their feelings and I’m not responsible for guessing what they want.  

          No, you’re not, but … here’s an example. I was dating a guy once who clearly wanted a relationship. I wasn’t dating anyone else — wasn’t looking for anyone else — but I didn’t want to commit to him and I knew I never would. But he did 90 percent of the work — calling, planning, visiting, even sexually. I rode the wave for several months. Was he responsible for his own behavior and decisions? Of course. Did I lie about what I wanted? No. But was it selfish of me to keep things going when I knew I would never want what he did or share his feelings? Yes.

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