Should Men Be Forced to Pay For Children They Didn’t Want?

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I’m a man who helps women understand men. Not all men. Not in every situation. But, in general, if you want to hear how honest, loyal, sensitive, successful, confident, self-aware (and self-aggrandizing) men think, this blog is a pretty good place to start.

Which is why I’m excerpting what is sure to be a controversial post that recently ran in the New York Times. It was written by Laurie Shrage, a women’s studies professor in Florida and it’s like she took the words right out of my brain. In short, while no one in the world will defend deadbeat dads who don’t support their kids after a divorce, that’s a completely different scenario than men who are forced to support a child that they never wanted to have. In her opinion – and in mine – the law should reflect this obvious difference.

“If a man accidentally conceives a child with a woman, and does not want to raise the child with her, what are his choices? Surprisingly, he has few options in the United States. He can urge her to seek an abortion, but ultimately that decision is hers to make. Should she decide to continue the pregnancy and raise the child, and should she or our government attempt to establish him as the legal father, he can be stuck with years of child support payments.”

I’ve been around long enough to know that many women have the reflexive answer that if she accidentally got pregnant, he should be on the hook for it. But that doesn’t quite hold up logically. He can’t have a say over the birth of the fetus (because it’s her body), but she can have a say about whether he supports the accidentally conceived child for the next 18 years?

“The political philosopher Elizabeth Brake has argued that our policies should give men who accidentally impregnate a woman more options, and that feminists should oppose policies that make fatherhood compulsory. In a 2005 article in the Journal of Applied Philosophy she wrote, “if women’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a fetus, then men’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a resulting child.” At most, according to Brake, men should be responsible for helping with the medical expenses and other costs of a pregnancy for which they are partly responsible.”

Continues the author, “Feminists have long held that women should not be penalized for being sexually active by taking away their options when an accidental pregnancy occurs. Do our policies now aim to punish and shame men for their sexual promiscuity? Many of my male students (in Miami where I teach), who come from low-income immigrant communities, believe that our punitive paternity policies are aimed at controlling their sexual behavior. Moreover, the asymmetrical options that men and women now have when dealing with an unplanned pregnancy set up power imbalances in their sexual relationships that my male students find hugely unfair to them. Rather than punish men (or women) for their apparent reproductive irresponsibility by coercing legal paternity (or maternity), the government has other options, such as mandatory sex education, family planning counseling, or community service.”

Is any of this ideal? Of course not. But it’s reality. No matter what we legislate, men and women are going to get drunk, hook up, forget to wear a condom, and have to deal with the consequences of unplanned pregnancies. The question is: what’s fair? Shrage seems to suggest that the current laws are anything but.

“However, just as court-ordered child support does not make sense when a woman goes to a sperm bank and obtains sperm from a donor who has not agreed to father the resulting child, it does not make sense when a woman is impregnated (accidentally or possibly by her choice) from sex with a partner who has not agreed to father a child with her. In consenting to sex, neither a man nor a woman gives consent to become a parent, just as in consenting to any activity, one does not consent to yield to all the accidental outcomes that might flow from that activity.”

As the author proves, one can be a feminist, demand equal rights, and still believe that a system that penalizes men so harshly for an innocent mistake is unjust. While you are entitled to disagree with me, please understand that my whole business is about learning to put yourself in men’s shoes and find a measure of sympathy and understanding for them. By insisting that a man pay hundreds of thousands of dollars over a lifetime for a one-night stand and a broken condom, you are not indicating that you’re considering his plight at all.

Concludes Shrage, “Policies that punish men for accidental pregnancies also punish those children who must manage a lifelong relationship with an absent but legal father. These “fathers” are not “dead-beat dads” failing to live up to responsibilities they once took on – they are men who never voluntarily took on the responsibilities of fatherhood with respect to a particular child.”

Your thoughts below are greatly appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 361
    David

    There is a right that we do have and it’s called a paternity test. If the woman wants Child Support so badly, challenge her to a DNA test if she backs down then it clearly isn’t yours.

    Especially if a woman threatens you from day one tonget out of her house, you never bonded with her or said fetus in the womb, then decides to date another man while your separated and he sticks around for the birth of the child, takes pics of the child and bonds with child, clearly indicates it isn’t your child.

    Yes this happened to me.

    My ex when we were dating got knocked up by her college professor/ Reverend friend.

    Then she later found me she and I had sex and a week later said to me she’s pregnant, used me for everything then started to freak out when I tried to bond with the baby, forcing me to leave. She threatened me with child support, I then said well I want a Paternity Test. She backed down.

     

     

  2. 362
    sue

    Nope! That makes no sense at all. It is simple. It is on the man and the woman both separately to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy period. If the man doesn’t wear a condom etc and the woman gets pregnant and wants to keep it? Hell yes he is on the hook for child support. Now the only logical case where a man shouldn’t have to pay child support would be if he was using protection and she was deliberately sabotaging it without telling the man. That if proved should result in the man not having to pay child support. Simple and clear.

  3. 363
    Susan

    The reason men pay child support is the taxpayers do not wish to pay for other people’s children.   Even if a child was conceived that a man didn’t want, courts look at it as it’s better to screw over one life, the father’s, than to screw over everyone else with higher tax bills.   Even if it’s unfair to the man, life isn’t fair.   If men refuse to pay support, and the woman can’t afford the child on her own, then again society will be stuck footing the bill for foster care.   Men do have a choice, at the point of conception. They can choose celibacy until they want the risk or children, or only have sex when they are 100% certain of the contraption being used.   If they choose to have careless, unprotected sex, and it causes a huge burden for 18 years, that’s too bad for them.   Same as if they drove drunk, got in an accident and were paralysed for life.   Or if they had unprotected sex, caught a fatal disease and it cost them their life. Sometimes we make a decision and what we do in one split second negatively effects the rest of our lives.   They just have to own up and accept responsibility, even if it ruins their life.

  4. 364
    Lisa

    You broke it you pay for it. If a man doesn’t want to support his child, one that was conceived by him impregnating a woman, then the man should not have had sex or should have used condom. Simple as that. Otherwise, you’re responsible for supporting that child until they are 18. And if you can’t afford child support, too bad. Get a second and a third job if necessary. You made a choice to get your jollies off and have unprotected sex. Now you accept the consequences.

  5. 365
    Tired of The Nonsense

    On the morning after, just take her out for a nice big breakfast at the pancake house and put two or three day-after pills in her coffee. No more oopsie babies! You’re welcome. 🙂

    Consenting to sex shouldn’t mean consenting to parenthood.  But, it does. Look at the comments: you PLAY you PAY. One night of sex and you’re on the hook for 18-25 years of child support. BALONEY! And nobody is going to tell me a child needs $10K per month to be raised properly. This is just thinly veiled alimony.    There should be a cap on child support and women should have to provide receipts for what they (allegedly) spend child support on. It’s “for the children” after all, and not for that new apartment and SUV she got… just saying.

    Women: prove you’re equal. Lean in and pay your own way.

  6. 366
    James d

    I completely agree. My situation is probably very similar to many. In January of 2015 I met this girl (we’ll call her Jane) Jane at the time was on birth control. We began our relationship Jane never informed me she stopped taking the pill. There was a scare in March and Jane was living with myself and my disabled mother along with her two-and-a-half-year-old son conceived by another man. She was still in high school had just turned 18, long story short. In September Jane and her son were asked to leave. My aunt took her in temporarily in place of the Women’s Center ( which my aunt regrets)

    My aunt helped (pushed) Jane to find an apartment and a job. Even though this was set in motion I was sucked in because her job was at night and as a single mom she needed someone to watch her son.

    In October 2015 Jane conceived a child by me, unaware since I thought she was taking contraceptives.

    Although I did not want a child, I am responsible and love my daughter to no end. Although her mother fabricates stories, blatantly lies. Jane filed a false pfa against me to Trump custody orders when my daughter was 13 months old and ripped my daughter’s world to shreds.

    I am now tired of the lies and twisted truth.

    Janes son is a major behavioral concern. Since custody is 50/50 I am fearful harm may befall my daughter under Janes watch, so as a concerned father who is now paying child support for Jane to stay at home. I worry constantly. I have enough proof to validate my concerns.

    I did not want my daughter, I wanted a career promotion, marriage and then a family. Jane knew this yet managed to get pregnant.

    I will fight my entire life to protect my daughter and provide a stable safe, happy home   for her. Even if it costs me to have to go to trial.

    Since my daughter came into my world my life was not complete.   Yet Jane brings instability. Drama . Lies. And constant fear to my world.

    So as much as I wasn’ ready to be a father. I am stepping up and doing whatever I have to to ensure my daughter has the best I can provide for her.whatever it costs and whatever it takes.

    But I agree.   No man should be trapped into caring for a child that was brought in by accident or deceit. As it stands now I have few regrets where my daughter is concerned only where her mother is and the lack of genuine concerns for her offspring. I hope to change that for my daughter’ sake.

  7. 367
    Linda DAgosta

    I am 57 year old widow with a beautiful granddaughter conceived under devious pretense.

    I had a child I carried to term and relinquished as the father denied it to be his. Fortnately I was reunited with her when she turned 18. Her physical characteristics as well as fundamental traits definitely show her father’ DNA   are present.

    I raised 2 son’s as a single mother. After I separated from my abuseive   husband.

    I am pro choice.

    While I love my granddaughter the means and method of which she was brought into this world were to say undesirable.

    The mother was still a minor when she used a dating site to share my son. He brought her home under the falsehood that she was abused by her father. She had a 2 and a half year old son already. She had no life skills was lazy and lived in filth. Cheated on my son told him she was on the pill stopped taking it never told him and ended up pregnant.

    I do not condone the ill intent of many young women which appears the area we live in is filled with them.

    I do believe with all my heart that men should have more say than they are entitled to prior to a life time of responsibility.   I conceived my first born daughter due to a poor fit of a diaphragm. I was never informed   by family planning (many moons ago) that every 10 lbs you need to be refitted.   There are genuine accidental pregnancies.

    I have personally been on both sides after giving birth and putting her up for adoption. Waiting 7 years to finally marry and have 2 more children only to close the door on that marriage due to abuse. Finding a man I have been with later for over 25 years.

    While I was married my husband asked me to abort our first conceived because he was in touch with his high school sweetheart and was having second thoughts about everything.

    I firmly believe karma factors in and here is why.

    I conceived again 6 months later after he had come to terms with   his past.   At 5 months and no heart beat I was forced to terminate the pregnancy. Or I could elect to carry to term and deliver a still born. I am not that strong.   My husband had six sinus syndrome and we both agreed that it was not wise to carry to term knowing the fetus was not viable.

    I conceived 2 more carried to full term marriage ended.

    Met the man I am still with conceived with him. He was not accepting of starting a family I made the appointment returned home and he was upset about it.   A year later I again found myself with child we both agreed this one was going to term. I had no choice as at 2 months I had a miscarriage.   That was the most painful loss ever. Karma factors in. Call it the work of God. Whatever you want .. I was raised Christian   but through the years I lean not toward life gives back what you deserve. Karma. What one dies will come back to you.

    My son is in a horrible situation. He deserves better with someone better.   My granddaughter was given a raw deal but hopefully a ton of cash and a hard fight we hope to change that scenario.

    Men should be given more say prior to   a lifetime. 18 years it never ends   it is a lifetime when you have children.

    All of you who think that it is ok to trap a guy by getting pregnant.. you are selfish.. best of luck to you if you think that works. It most likely will build the biggest wall between you and the man you think you will land by getting pregnant. Your bringing a child into this world. That child deserves to be treated with respect love and understanding. That child deserves to have both parents who want them. That child deserves to be the center of both your world’s. And if you decide against the father’s wishes to continue what you started. You should be prepared to do it on your own and mmm ot look to the father for help or support. If you are not in a position to raise the child on your own. You should think twice about what you are doing. You are subjecting a child to a lifetime of fighting.   Rejection. Feeling unwanted.   This is not just your life you are dealing with. There are many others factoring in. The father, your family, his family, as well as the lifetime of your child. Think before you act.

    Yes there is the morning after pill. Yet unless you are together long enough to be certain the dose is taken there is no sure thing with that.

    Yes there is abortion but that is hard to come to terms with   as well.

    No form of contraception is proven 100% foolproof. Other than abstinence.

    There is so much this topic can branch off into so many areas. But the bottom line is be more cautious when having relations with random people. Use extra   care not to create a life that you or your partner may or may not want. If it a chance meeting make certain you have discussed it before you have sex. And then even so use precautions and follow up with the morning after pill. This day and age it seems lies come faster than truths. Distrust appears to be everywhere.

    In my day if some hit a parked car they left a note on it. Today they call it hit and run.. seems the same rules apply with sexual encounters yet you can’t file a police report for having sex with someone unless you declare it as rape. So sad. And back in the day.. if a guy got a gal pregnant he married her   regardless.. it was the honorable thing to do. That was not in my case so that is why I chose to place mine up for adoption.   Not that I didn’t want her more that I knew I could do it on my own.

     

  8. 368
    Ed

    Men need more rights in regards to unwanted pregnancies. My story is that I had a daughter at the age of 19 and of course her mother and I split-up. I then met this other woman and started dating her. I told her from the very beginning of our relationship that I did NOT want another child because I already had one that I could hardly support financially.

    Her exact words to me were and I quote, “I am on birth control and have been since 1982 because I had an abortion and I do not want a child either.” We dated on and off from August of 1984 until May of 1991. I caught her cheating on me and she ran away to Texas and lived there until May of 1992. She then came back to PA and we ended up hooking up again and she claimed she still was on birth control. She ended up getting pregnant (she was 26 and I was 29)and I fought and begged her to have an abortion and of course she would not. Needless to say she had the child in March of 1993 and I was FORCED to become a father because it was HER choice in regards to having the child or aborting it. Which is bullshit!

    She knew that I did not want a child and lied about birth control. Nobody is on birth control for 10+years and then all the sudden they don’t work any longer. I did not want, chose, or plan to have a child with her but was forced by the legal system to take responsibility for a child I never wanted, chose, or planned to have. How is this fair? It is NOT fair that the woman get to make the choice for both parties involved! How does the woman get options for her having sex resulting in an unwanted pregnancy but the man does not? Men get labeled as “deadbeats” and women are considered poor single mothers. Where is their accountability for their choices? The laws need to change!

    I ended up paying over $150,000 for a child I never wanted or chose. Every time I turned around she was taking me back for more money. Then she got pregnant to another guy and had another kid and took me back for even more support because she had another child to care for. Really? And the court system increased the amount I had to pay because SHE chose to have another child out of wed-lock and I of course I made more money than her so technically I was paying for both her damn kids. They system is so unfair!

    The child now is an adult but he and his mother both continue to bother me and act like I am their personal ATM machine. The sad part is that the child is the one that suffers. I have no connection or bond with the child. I honestly believe the only reason I felt “love” for him is because I felt guilty about not wanting him. Which I now know that it is not love, it is guilt and children can sense that. He is an adult as I said, and his life is a mess. He is a drug addict and currently in jail for being a heroin user. He lies, steals, and is disconnected from relationships. All he cares about is money and who he can get if from; just like his mother. Of course his mother tries to blame it on me for not being a big part of his life when he was growing up; but my defense is I did not choose to be his “dad” she chose it!

    My opinion; if a woman chooses to have have sex and gets pregnant and the man does not want the child it should be her responsibility financially, emotionally, and spiritually to raise the child. She made the choice to have the child. It should not be society’s responsibility (welfare) or the man she chose to have sex with. Women need to take responsibility for their choices. Just because a man has sex with a woman does not mean that he wants to marry her or have children with her. Just because a man is sexually active does not mean he should have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars because the actions resulted in an unwanted pregnancy. A man should be able to make the choice of becoming a parent just like a woman can.

    It is disgusting how society always blames the man when the woman is the only one that is allowed to make the choice.

  9. 369
    Michael Brandon Jones

    I only want to speak on my side, as of the father’s that do pay support, and are upheld to court orders that limit the time they can see their children, even though we have obeyed the law and respectfully volunteered to pay support, even for a pregnancy not planned. I as well as many father’s today, are upheld as dead beat dad’s, because money is all that some mother’s want. I did not fight for a custody order, because I believe that children should remain with the mother, unless they are in harm’s way. I volunteered and agreed to her terms just to keep peace. I was given only visitation rights, and Max support, and still to this day, in 7 years, I can count on one hand, the number of times she has been able to come to my house, because the order says that I have supervised visitation and an unfit parent…. Now how fare is this? I agreed to everything that was requested, volunteered to pay with no arguments, pay her health insurance, vision, and dental as ordered by the court, hit for the max support, and never once argued. I just want to spend more time with my daughter. Money is nothing to us father’s who just want to love our children. I will pay till the day I die in hopes that I can just one day have the opportunity to see my daughter grow and love me. I am not a dead beat. But this is a punishment I do not believe I deserve. Children should not be held over our heads as leverage. When will we ever get help. We are good father’s, and our children are being turned against us and we have no say so. Just pay the money or go to jail… Yes I say punishment

    1. 369.1
      SparklingEmerald

      I am sorry that you are going through this.   I believe that non-custodial parental visitation rights should be enforced as vigorously as child payment.

  10. 370
    Michael

    I am sorry as well. Especially when I hear and see things that are taught to my daughter against me, when I am only doing the right things by what the order says. And If I try to see her otherwise, im threatened with jail time. . . I don’t even have a speeding ticket on my record. I have my other two children in my home, very well safe and protected, served army 6 years with honorable discharge, am now a coast guard approved captain with a full time job, and the order from which was written 7 years ago, still stands the very same as today. The only thing I can do is go back to court, pay 5k, and ask to review and rewrite the order, with no guarantee that it will happen. So in all honesty, I love my little one with every breath in me, and I will never give up; But I fully understand why other dad’s in my situation let go… We have nothing on our side. We have no chance. Some of us just except the fact that it is not our fault and we have tried. But end the end, all we have is, Pay, or Do Time!!! What kind of Justice is this. We want to be daddy’s, not treated like we have committed and crime.

  11. 371
    Sarah

    If they have sex with no protection they are both at fault. Both should have to pay for the child raising. Not only one to pay for   it.. I am the only one paying for my boys which is fine he can never see them. That’s my reward. When anyone asks my kids where their dad is they point to me.

  12. 372
    c

    The answer is simple. Self control. Control your fertility. If you don’t want to have a baby with the wrong person. Don’t have sex with the wrong person. Anything can fail. If you end up with a baby. Stop whining.. man or woman up.. You laid and made it, then take care of it. If you don’t like the consequences… like having to take care of a child for 18 years and having cs in your pocket.. keep your pants on. It is the parents responsibility to take care of the children that come into the world. Stay single and get a  vasectomy. If you want to run around having sex with everyone…knowing the consequences..if you get caught that is your fault.

  13. 373
    Gabriela Canchola

    Hello,

    I know this post is old, but I thought I should respond because I am quite surprised that no one, especially you Mark, had mentioned one crucial fact. Even in wanted pregnancies, women suffer a biological disadvantage. Let’s say a man and a woman conceive a child and choose to raise it together within the confines of marriage. The woman, not the man, will experience every immediate consequence of that pregnancy. Her health may be at risk, her career will struggle, she may lose her figure, not to mention it is much harder to find a mate once a pregnancy happened. Now imagine if the baby is not planned but the father is not willing to become a parent, yet is forced to pay child support. Again, the consequences are not balanced. Because paying child support is nothing in comparison to what a single mother goes through. He pays money, but she gives up her life for her child. Which, personally, I would consider her winning, as I object to the notion that any child is an ‘accident.’ But, that is why she deserves at least a say in whether her body should undergo a pregnancy. I think it evens the scales a bit.

  14. 374
    xoxo-not

    I’m a woman and this is not for women who were married or in a relationship with a man who now doesn’t want to be a father to his child/children with that said i believe it’s unfair for a man to be force into being a father if he doesn’t want to be. just like women have the choice the man should have one to especially when they are not in a relationship if a man uses a condom and it breaks obviously he was trying to protect himself so if the woman ends up pregnant and he tells her he doesn’t want the child and she continues to move forward with the pregnancy then she should be the only one responsible for it. also what about these women with multiple kids with different fathers and no jobs on section 8 at some point the government should make them get their tubes tied you basically living off child support and government assistance .

  15. 375
    Read the Article

    The article clearly states that the proposed law would give men the same right to absolve themself of responsibility for a child as a woman has AFTER THE CHILD IS BORN.   It was a comment that advocated forcing a woman to carry a baby to term not the article.   Any woman who can’t see that what the article actually does suggest is only fair is being wilfully obtuse or deliberately misanderist.

  16. 376
    Hildie V

    I have an interesting take on this.   Someone I know personally began an online relationship with a woman, who came to “visit” him (They lived in different states).   She was with him for about 3 weeks, and said she was going home to her husband.   My friend did not know she was married, he was under the impression she was recently divorced.

    About 2 weeks later, she calls to tell him that she is pregnant, and she loves him and she wants to spend the rest of her life with him.   Over the course of another month, between texts, chat messages, and phone calls, he discovers that she was on fertility medication, trying to conceive.   Her husband’s business wasn’t working, so she tried a “secondary donor”, without notifying him of the details.   When her husband did the math, he decided he was not going to be responsible for her out-of-wedlock child.

    Turns out this is the second time she has done this.   The older child was raised by her husband, but is aware that she has a different biological father, who pays child (non-court ordered )support.

    My friend was sued for child support, and forced by the courts into joint custody and visitation, because this woman cried and said her husband didn’t want the baby.   because of the distance, there hasn’t been any visitation, but he is responsible for child support until this child is 21.   Meanwhile, the woman lives with her husband whose income (per her) is over 200k a year, she doesn’t work, and she collects additional support from the older child’s bio-father.

    How is this reasonable and fair.   Yes, there was unprotected sex involved, but that their ages (I forgot to mention she as 45 when she got pregnant) he didn’t think there was an issue to be had.   And she openly admitted that she had been trying to get pregnant for her husband, and didn’t tell my friend she was on hormones.

     

    1. 376.1
      sylvana

      How is this reasonable and fair? Well…did she hold a gun to his head to force him to donate his sperm? Did she steal it out of a condom? Did she drug and rape him? Did her eggs jump ship, crawl into his testicles, then climb their way back up into her body?

      If not, as an adult male, he should darn well know better than to spray his sperm anywhere near a uterus – UNLESS he’s planning on impregnating someone.

      Why in the world would he think that having unprotected sex in addition to depositing his sperm very close to where it is likely to cause impregnation should free him from any obligation toward the resulting pregnancy?

       

      1. 376.1.1
        Susan

        Agree.   For the men   who “believe that our punitive paternity policies are aimed at controlling their sexual behavior,”  if they can’t control it, then laws need to force them to take responsibility.

        1. Tyrone

          Why don’t you want the woman to be forced to take responsibility for her unilateral choices? If the man “sprayed his sperm” in her, she is just as culpable as him (save for instances of rape) for letting it happen to HER body. She made the choice to allow it to happen. If SHE makes the CHOICE not to plan b, not to abort, not to give the baby up for adoption, and have the baby no matter what the biological father wants (all choices that she can make on her own), why should she not take 100% of the responsibility of the outcome of said choices. Why are you only applying responsibility to the man or the state in this equation?

          “if they can’t control it, then the law needs to force them to take responsibility”

          if you believe this, how can you logically not support the following:

          if SHE can control all aspects from conception to birth with zero input from the biological father if it is her prerogative,   then the laws need to force HER to take responsibility for HER unilateral choices.

          If you actually care about actual responsibility for one’s choice regardless of the sex of the person involved, you’d have to support that.

      2. 376.1.2
        Tyrone

        “How is this reasonable and fair? Well…did she hold a gun to his head to force him to donate his sperm? Did she steal it out of a condom? Did she drug and rape him? Did her eggs jump ship, crawl into his testicles, then climb their way back up into her body?”

        Did he rape her? No? So she made the choice to have unprotected sex knowing that she could get pregnant. Can she not control what goes into her own body? Isn’t that what being responsible means?

        “If not, as an adult male, he should darn well know better than to spray his sperm anywhere near a uterus — UNLESS he’s planning on impregnating someone.”

        As an adult female, she knows that she can get pregnant if she has unprotected sex. She shouldn’t let a guy spray his sperm near her uterus unless she is planning on getting pregnant. If she is taking extra measures to try to induce pregnancy, she probably knows that whomever she has sex with would want to know. Probably why she didn’t say anything about it. Almost sounds like she wanted to get pregnant and have a baby with no regard as to what the guy might want.

        “Why in the world would he think that having unprotected sex in addition to depositing his sperm very close to where it is likely to cause impregnation should free him from any obligation toward the resulting pregnancy?”

        Why in the world do you think a woman that chose to have unprotected sex, chose not to take a plan b pill, chose not to abort, chose not to place the baby up for adoption, and chose to have the baby despite the wishes of her husband and the biological father, should be able to demand anything? Or feel that someone has an obligation to her or the baby? You seem to think the man should be “responsible” for his one action of unprotected sex. That’s fair. But why do you not feel the woman should be responsible for the EXACT SAME action of unprotected sex, plus all of the other choices she made ON HER OWN despite what others wanted leading up to the birth of the baby?

        Responsibility and obligations aren’t one sided. No one made her secretly seek a second donor. No one made her have unprotected sex. No one made her carry the baby to term when she had a husband and a biological father that objected to having a baby.   Doesn’t sound like anyone made her do it the FIRST time either. She chose to do all of this. Way more choices that the man’s one choice to have unprotected sex with her – a choice she ALSO made. Tell me more about this guy being “obligated” for 21 years for one joint choice and this woman not being responsible or obligated for her many unilateral choices.

        1. Susan

          Okay but if he doesn’t pay support are you okay with your tax bill increasing to pay for a child you weren’t there to help create?   If so, then let him off the hook.   Most tax payers don’t care about whether the man or the woman is to blame.   They want whoever has dna invested in the child to shoulder the cost so they don’t have to.   If it ruins a man’s life, so what?   If men are afraid of paying support then masturbate to porn and stop having sex with women you don’t want to father children with.   Men are not entitled to sex.   Children are legally entitled to support.   End of story.   The mother could also walk away.   If she does then the tax payer is obligated to pick up the full tab.   The support is for the child, not the woman.   I’d like to reiterate tax payer’s do not care if a man’s life is ruined.   They don’t want to pay for someone else’s child.   That’s why child support exists.   Take all the fatherless children away and put them in orphanages then and pay higher tax rates if you don’t agree with paying support.   Make everyone pay then.

        2. Tyrone

          @Susan

          “Okay but if he doesn’t pay support are you okay with your tax bill increasing to pay for a child you weren’t there to help create?  If so, then let him off the hook.   Most tax payers don’t care about whether the man or the woman is to blame.   They want whoever has dna invested in the child to shoulder the cost so they don’t have to.”

          The WOMAN that MADE THE UNILATERAL CHOICE should pay. Not the man. Not the state. Not tax payers. If you make a serious of choices taking into account no one else, you bear the entire responsibility. This is generally what is considered to responsibility. Except here, you think others should be responsible for something that was entirely her choice alone. If she agreed to unprotected sex, she is 100% as culpable as the man that had unprotected sex with her. So stop trying to use this as an example of a choice that only a man mad and should be held accountable for. Because even though the woman made a line of choices after jointly making that one and you apparently don’t think she should be responsible for any of them.

          “If it ruins a man’s life, so what?   If men are afraid of paying support then masturbate to porn and stop having sex with women you don’t want to father children with.  Men are not entitled to sex.  ”

          You think a woman should be ENTITLED to make a choice with ZERO input from the man as to whether or not he will be a father and/or responsible to pay money for decades? Explain to me how you aren’t sexist and how men are the entitled ones? You don’t really seem to know what the word entitlement means. Unless we are talking about rape, a woman getting pregnant consented to being there as a willing participant. No one is talking about forcing her to have sex. What we are talking about is women FORCING men to be fathers and pay child support. Notice I use the word force as the man has ZERO say in her decision to plan b, abort, adopt, safe haven abandon, or carry to term. He had one choice – the unprotected sex. The exact same choice the woman he had sex with had. The responsibility of on co-choice vs. the responsibility of MANY unilateral ones.

          “Children are legally entitled to support.”

          If the man doesn’t want her to have the child, and she make the CHOICE to do so, she should be responsible for said choice. Meaning she should be the one paying the support. In your words, women aren’t entitled to sex or money or support. If women are afraid of having babies and paying to raise their babies on their own, they should masturbate to porn and stop having sex with men that don’t want to be fathers.

          “The mother could also walk away.   If she does then the tax payer is obligated to pick up the full tab.”

          One of her many choices.

          “he support is for the child, not the woman.”

          I don’t think the state should reward this behavior. Father doesn’t want to be involved but you still want the child and want to take care of it the proper way a parent should – that includes money – good for you. You want someone else to help you fund the life choices that you made against the wishes of the other party involved? Kick rocks.

          “I’d like to reiterate tax payer’s do not care if a man’s life is ruined.   They don’t want to pay for someone else’s child.   That’s why child support exists.”

          Weird. I pay taxes and I care. Other people on this thread seemed to care also. Note we already pay for other folks including some people that made poor life choices and are abusing things like srs, cash assistance, section 8, food stamps and various other social programs. What everyone wants is for such systems to be used by those that actually need it. Like someone getting laid off for example. Not someone that has a fling, tells the guy she is having the baby no matter what, then expects him or the state to fund her decision.

          “Take all the fatherless children away and put them in orphanages then and pay higher tax rates if you don’t agree with paying support.   Make everyone pay then.”

          Or…….make the WOMAN that made the CHOICE pay for the OUTCOME OF SAID CHOICE. A.K.A. accountability for her choices. A.K.A. being responsible for her actions. If she can’t support the baby on her own she shouldn’t have it. One could argue that carrying the baby to term while knowing the father doesn’t wish it to be so and knowing you can’t support it on your own financially is selfish to the child, the father, and potentially the tax payer. Or we can simple make the decision not 100% hers anymore. Give the fathers a legal say in the matter and that’s that.

        3. sylvana

          Tyrone,

          the woman who made the unilateral choice to impregnate herself? Most certainly.

          But, unless the man was forced, raped, or his sperm stolen, HE is the one who made the UNILATERAL CHOICE to deposit his sperm near as woman’s uterus. Her eggs didn’t jump into his body. His sperm got placed inside of her body BY HIM.

          So you expect a man’s ONLY consequence to be him having an unprotected orgasm INSIDE of a woman’s vagina?

          What about the medical procedure, physical as well as emotional pain and suffering she has to endure even if she chooses to abort? That’s right – who cares? He got to have his orgasm inside of her.

          What about the pain and suffering, tremendous physical damages, and permanent physical changes and damages, even risk of death a woman sustains during pregnancy and childbirth if she is not able to abort for emotional or moral reasons?

          Hormones causing ligaments to loosen. Vital supportive muscle structure torn, and permanently scarred. Sexual organs torn to shreds during natural birth, stomach muscles sliced apart during C-section. Hip bones permanently widened. Her entire skeletal and muscular structure will NEVER be the same. And that’s just the best case scenario.

          The only thing a man has to suffer is his orgasm.

          All these damages are caused by sperm being introduced near the uterus. There is no such thing as pregnancy without sperm. Sex alone won’t do it. Neither will her eggs spontaneously impregnate themselves.

          So unless the woman got A.I.ed by a doctor, stole the sperm, or obtained it without a man’s consent, it is the man, and the man only responsible for said sperm and the placement and disposal thereof.

          And therefore, the man should be 100% liable for the damages his sperm caused.

          To claim otherwise is to say that just because they both drove, he should suffer no consequences whatsoever for the accident HE caused.

        4. Tyrone

          @Sylvania

          “the woman who made the unilateral choice to impregnate herself? Most certainly.”

          You didn’t read. This was her co-choice. And the only choice man had any say in. She didn’t have to have sex with him unprotected. So stop trying to say that they man made that (one and only) choice without acknowledging that the woman made the exact same choice at the exact same time.

          “So you expect a man’s ONLY consequence to be him having an unprotected orgasm INSIDE of a woman’s vagina?”

          You expect the consequence to be the man being at the mercy of every decision the woman chooses to make throughout her pregnancy and birth or the child. They BOTH made the choice to have unprotected sex. She made ALL OF THE OTHER CHOICES AFTERWARDS. HE is legally bound by HER CHOICES that he had NO input in. As such, she is refusing to take full responsibility of all of her choices. But you think HE should take responsibility for the ONE choice that hey made TOGETHER. Doesn’t really jive with 2018 women are equal to men now does it?

          “What about the medical procedure, physical as well as emotional pain and suffering she has to endure even if she chooses to abort? That’s right — who cares? He got to have his orgasm inside of her.”

          That is right – who cares? Still her choice. Your argument that her choice is hard doesn’t make it any less of a choice. What about the man’s emotional pain and suffering of being forced into fatherhood? Or things he can’t afford because he s forced to pay for a choice he had no say in? You say who cares to that. No one made her have unprotected sex pregnant. No one made her carry the baby to term. No one made her keep it. No one made her seek child support. She had plenty of options not to have the child if that had been what she wanted. She laid there and participated in the unprotected sex. She isn’t a victim so stop trying to act like she is.

          “Hormones causing ligaments to loosen. Vital supportive muscle structure torn, and permanently scarred. Sexual organs torn to shreds during natural birth, stomach muscles sliced apart during C-section. Hip bones permanently widened. Her entire skeletal and muscular structure will NEVER be the same. And that’s just the best case scenario.”

          So? Women have babies. Fact. Having babies can be tough on a woman’s body? Fact. So what? We aren’t talking about biological facts. We are talking about responsibility and legal obligation. Women aren’t required to get pregnant. They can make the choice not to do so. If they get pregnant and carry to term and decide to keep it, they also made all of those CHOICES along the way. Choices the biological father has no say in. So if a woman has a fling, chooses to have unprotected sex (same as the man), but then ALSO chooses not to plan b, not to abort, not to place the baby up for adoption and to seek child support all after the man said he didn’t want to be a father, why should she not be responsible for all of those choices?

          “The only thing a man has to suffer is his orgasm.”

          Because women don’t enjoy sex. No one is making the woman have a baby. The woman is the only party with the capacity to MAKE someone have a child they don’t want. That is the dilemma. So far your argument has been the man should pay because he had an orgasm,the choice to about is hard and pregnancy can hurt. Doesn’t really sound like you think much of women to be honest. They should’t have to make hard or emotional choices? They need protection from men and their orgasms. in the form of legal child support. They aren’t responsible if they choose to engage in unprotected sex. Or choose to have a baby against the wishes of the father. Can you tell me what choices women should be responsible for?

          “All these damages are caused by sperm being introduced near the uterus. There is no such thing as pregnancy without sperm. Sex alone won’t do it. Neither will her eggs spontaneously impregnate themselves.  So unless the woman got A.I.ed by a doctor, stole the sperm, or obtained it without a man’s consent, it is the man, and the man only responsible for said sperm and the placement and disposal thereof.  And therefore, the man should be 100% liable for the damages his sperm caused.”

          You mean the sperm that the the woman willfully allowed in or near her uterus? She was there. She consented. She made that same choice. She then went on to make ALL OF THE OTHER CHOICES WITHOUT HIS INPUT. Not sure why this is so hard to grasp. The “sperm” cause the egg to be fertilized. The CHOICE to have unprotected sex was made by BOTH parties. EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED AFTER WAS CHOSEN BY ONE PARTY. So the man should be 100% liable for her CHOOSING to not plan b after unprotected sex, not abort, not adopt – all with no say from him. Tell me why that is. Tell me why – without talking about feelings as they do not matter – a person making 100% of the decisions shouldn’t bear 100% of the responsibility. You keep phasing it as if she was just hanging out until some orgasm seeking guy showed up and made her make hard decisions. through no fault of her own.

          “To claim otherwise is to say that just because they both drove, he should suffer no consequences whatsoever for the accident HE caused.”

          HE caused? Are you saying she was raped? She didn’t willfully participate in unprotected sex? She didn’t know that unprotected sex can lead to pregnancy? Just more acting like the woman is some sort of victim. Ridiculous and more so irrelevant. Say I agree that he “caused” the pregnancy. He didn’t “cause” the birth. SHE did. Through her decisions to keep and raise the baby.

           

        5. Sonya Hazard

          Tyrone,

          once again – sex, even unprotected, will not lead to pregnancy without viable sperm being introduced near the uterus. End of story.

          If you think the woman has any say or control over what a man does during his orgasm once he’s inside of her, you’re absolutely mistaking. She cannot pull his dick out of her. That simple. And while she might be able to tell when he’s getting close, he is the ONLY one who knows when his orgasm is about to happen. If her eggs jumped into his body, it would be her responsibility.

          Once again – just because two people drove, doesn’t make both people responsible for the accident caused by one driver.

          If she chooses abortion, what exactly are you doing to compensate her for the pain and suffering she has to go through to have one? And in which way, exactly, are you suffering the same exact physical consequences of either abortion of pregnancy and childbirth?

          The other issue here is this:

          If the woman chooses to keep the child, she is obviously willing to take responsibility for whatever happens. If the man doesn’t want to pay for said child, HE is the one NOT willing to take responsibility.

          So now he places his sperm wherever he chooses to put it DESPITE the fact that he has no interest whatsoever in dealing with the possible consequences. If a man is that darn sure he doesn’t want to have children, and is not willing to pay for them, he better make darn sure not to put his sperm anywhere near where it might have a chance to impregnate.

          Still, overall I somewhat agree. If you don’t want to pay for the child – fine. Yet you should be financially responsible for the physical, health, and mental consequences to the woman you impregnated. Your sperm caused the damage. You pay for the damages.

        6. Tyrone

          @ Sonya Hazard
          “once again — sex, even unprotected, will not lead to pregnancy without viable sperm being introduced near the uterus. End of story.”
            
          Again you are trying to blame one party as if the other had nothing to do with it. Who ALLOWED the sperm near her uterus? The woman was a willful participant in the act of unprotected sex.
            
          “If you think the woman has any say or control over what a man does during his orgasm once he’s inside of her, you’re absolutely mistaking. She cannot pull his dick out of her. That simple. And while she might be able to tell when he’s getting close, he is the ONLY one who knows when his orgasm is about to happen. If her eggs jumped into his body, it would be her responsibility.”
            
          Did you just seriously say a woman has no control of an unprotected penis being inside of her? You’d best rethink that.
            
          “Once again — just because two people drove, doesn’t make both people responsible for the accident caused by one driver.”
            
          Poor analogy. Two people can’t drive the same car AT THE SAME TIME. The person driving the car at the time of the accident is the one responsible. And if one party runs into another, its typically because they did something they weren’t supposed to. And it wasn’t on purpose. Which is why it’s called an accident. Both the man and the woman are responsible for choosing to have unprotected sex. There was no accident. Yet for some reason you want to frame it as something that just happened to the female. As if she had no say in it.
            
          “If she chooses abortion, what exactly are you doing to compensate her for the pain and suffering she has to go through to have one? And in which way, exactly, are you suffering the same exact physical consequences of either abortion of pregnancy and childbirth”
            
          Compensate for her pain and suffering? Why do you feel that compensation is deserved in the instance of someone enduring the outcome of their choice? You are reiterating the core issue. The woman can make a choice impacting someone else without that person’s input. The man suffering the physical consequences of pregnancy is irrelevant to this issue. If the woman didn’t wish to have a child, she has options available to her. If she does wish to have it, she can do that too. The biological father ultimately has no say in either of those decisions. He is the only one that can be forced.
            
          “The other issue here is this:
          If the woman chooses to keep the child, she is obviously willing to take responsibility for whatever happens. If the man doesn’t want to pay for said child, HE is the one NOT willing to take responsibility.”
            
          If the man says he doesn’t want to be a father he is being FORCED to take RESPOSIBILTY FOR HER CHOICE. If she seeks child support, she IS NOT taking full responsibility for HER choice to have a child against the desire of the father — she is requesting monetary assistance to fund HER choice.
            
          “So now he places his sperm wherever he chooses to put it DESPITE the fact that he has no interest whatsoever in dealing with the possible consequences. If a man is that darn sure he doesn’t want to have children, and is not willing to pay for them, he better make darn sure not to put his sperm anywhere near where it might have a chance to impregnate.”
            
          Men can just put their penises in any woman at anytime and not have to use protection if they don’t want to? I had no idea. Here I was thinking women could tell men they have to wear condoms. Again, you still frame this as something that just happened to the woman. It’s 2018. Don’t know where you are but here in the US a woman as numerous options available. While there can be an accidental pregnancy, there is no accidental birth. If the man and the woman BOTH agreed to unprotected sex, the BOTH knew pregnancy could be possible. This is NOT the issue even though you seem to think it so. The issue begins after. The issue is making excuses for why the woman should be able to make any and all choices in either the direction of termination on one side or the direction of birth and child support request on the other. And the excuses are about feelings. Choosing abortion is hard. What about the medical procedure? Carrying the baby to term is hard. What about the physical changes. A choice being hard doesn’t make it any less of a choice. And the female is the only party able to FORCE the other to be legally bound to their choice. So in an example of BOTH parties CHOOSING to engage in unprotected sex, neither if more guilty or more responsible for the pregnancy than the other. It’s afterwards that all his choices end.
            
          “Still, overall I somewhat agree. If you don’t want to pay for the child — fine. Yet you should be financially responsible for the physical, health, and mental consequences to the woman you impregnated. Your sperm caused the damage. You pay for the damages.”
            
          WOMEN AREN’T VICTIMS. Please let go of this mindset. Multiple forms of birth control options are available to women to prevent pregnancy. No one is making them have unprotected sex with anyone except rapists. Women have numerous option available after conception if they don’t wish to be mothers. Fathers have only the option to abide by the mother’s choice.

  17. 377
    Susan

    Tyrone – If a man doesn’t want to be a father, he shouldn’t be having unprotected sex, period.   Men also often lie about their feelings and intentions just to obtain sex.   You seem to think men are helpless victims of wicked women trying to steal their money.   No matter what you think, men will and do have to pay support, and that system is correct.   There are also deadbeat mothers who leave children with the father and and refuse to pay support.   It goes both ways.   What you are saying is the equivalent of being angry at a child who had no say in the matter for being born.   Sometimes people have to own up and pay money they don’t want to spend for things they don’t want to spend it on.   That’s just the way it is.   This is why men are forced to pay support.   If they would just emotionally attach to their biological children and want to take care of them there would be no need.   How about on top of support actually making that child feel loved and wanted and spending time with them?   It shouldn’t be like pulling teeth to get a man to want to care for, and care about, a child he created.

    1. 377.1
      Sonya Hazard

      Susan,

      you could have stopped after the first line. Exactly!

      And even if you don’t take the child into equation, his actions ended up having great affect on a woman’s body. Whether she aborts or stays pregnant, SHE is the only one left with 100% of the physical consequences. This needs to stop being discounted.

      1. 377.1.1
        Tyrone

        @ Sonya Hazard

        His actions? You’re doing it again. The female isn’t a victim here. SHE WAS A WILLING PARTICIPANT IN UNPROTECTED SEX. No one did anything to her. No one made her do anything. So actually HER action of CHOOSING unprotected sex led to the effect on her body. She is left with 100% of the physical consequences OF HER CHOICE.

    2. 377.2
      Tyrone

      @ Susan
      “Tyrone — If a man doesn’t want to be a father, he shouldn’t be having unprotected sex, period.   Men also often lie about their feelings and intentions just to obtain sex.   You seem to think men are helpless victims of wicked women trying to steal their money.   “
        
      Please explain why you think that WOMEN are not ALSO choosing to have unprotected sex. No one said anything about women trying to steal anything. What I did say and am saying if that your mindset absolves women of the responsibility and consequences of the multiple choices they made to give birth, specifically in instances where I was known to them that the father didn’t wish to be a father. You know, the title of the thread. As such, lying about feelings and intentions to obtain sex isn’t particularly relevant. Unless the lie is I want to have a baby with you right now then he recants upon actual pregnancy or something similar. Even then, applying your logic, the woman shouldn’t have been engaging in unprotected sex right? Because men often lie right?
        
      “No matter what you think, men will and do have to pay support, and that system is correct.   There are also deadbeat mothers who leave children with the father and and refuse to pay support.   It goes both ways.  “
        
      You are mistaken. What you just described is literally not the same. A deadbeat mother still had all the choices available to her before and after conception. She STILL decided to have the baby. No one forced her to be a mother. She changed her mind AFTER the child was born. Or it could have been her plan all along. Who knows. Either way, only the man can be forced into actual parenthood against his wishes. This is what the argument is.
        
      “What you are saying is the equivalent of being angry at a child who had no say in the matter for being born.   Sometimes people have to own up and pay money they don’t want to spend for things they don’t want to spend it on.   That’s just the way it is.”
        
      The MOTHER had the say in the child being born. In the case of it being against the wishes of the father, she had the only say. Why aren’t you holding the female, aka the party with ALL of the choices over the birth or non-birth of the baby, to this same standard? Why don’t you think the female should own up and have to pay the money for her unilateral choice? You go on about the man’s choice of unprotected sex while failing to mention that the woman made the exact same choice at the exact same time. And you fail to acknowledge every other choice available to her during and after pregnancy. If a woman chooses to give birth and chooses to raise the baby, knowing that the father doesn’t want to be a father and knowing she can’t afford to do it on her own (or maybe just feels that she shouldn’t have to), why shouldn’t she be held to the standard you described? She made the choices. She should take the responsibility for them. Or like I said earlier, allow a man to have some legal say in some choices.   
        
      “This is why men are forced to pay support.   If they would just emotionally attach to their biological children and want to take care of them there would be no need.   How about on top of support actually making that child feel loved and wanted and spending time with them?   It shouldn’t be like pulling teeth to get a man to want to care for, and care about, a child he created.”
        
      But they don’t want the child. The woman forced them into fatherhood. Perhaps the mother shouldn’t have made the series of choices that led up to that. You’ve gone off on the feelings train again. That’s not what this is about. I’m not advocating that men not pay for or care for their children. This is about legally binding someone to something they have no say in.
      Why aren’t you holding the female responsible for he co-decision to have unprotected sex?
      Why are you willing to dismiss any emotional and/or monetary pain/suffering of the male in favor of the female?
      Why do you want to hold a man financially responsible for the one jointly made choice, but you don’t want to hold the female financially responsible for all the other unilateral choices?

  18. 378
    Susan

    Another thing – a lot of men lie about their feelings for a woman to get the woman to have sex, or their intentions for a relationship.   What if she was mislead into having sex because she believed he would love her or be there for her forever, but he just said it to get sex? Maybe she wouldn’t have consented to the sex if she had the information he didn’t care for her or would leave if she got pregnant.   Regardless of the scenario, if the child is his, it’s his job to pay his share.   It’s just how it is.   If having to pay support for unwanted children keeps some men from having sex because they don’t want to live with the consequences then good.   Sounds like child support laws remove some of the pleasure and fun.   Too bad.

    1. 378.1
      Tyrone

      @ Susan

      “Another thing — a lot of men lie about their feelings for a woman to get the woman to have sex, or their intentions for a relationship.   What if she was mislead into having sex because she believed he would love her or be there for her forever, but he just said it to get sex?”

       

      I addressed this above. It doesn’t matter. He said he loved the woman so now she is absolved of the choice to have unprotected sex? Or imbued with the right to force him to be a father against his wishes. Or to legally bind him to her and the child. Even if she was “misled”, all of the options available to her before, during and after pregnancy remain.

       

      “Maybe she wouldn’t have consented to the sex if she had the information he didn’t care for her or would leave if she got pregnant.  ”

       

      Doesn’t really matter. She DID consent to UNPROTECTED SEX. She wasn’t raped. Who has this future information that someone will lie? Or leave? You are still going on about feelings. Her feelings give her the right to legally influence the life of someone else?

       

      ”  Regardless of the scenario, if the child is his, it’s his job to pay his share.   It’s just how it is.”

      Yes that is how it is. Doesn’t mean that it’s right or how it should be. I guess it’s ok as is if you don’t believe in equality between men and women. Or don’t think women are fully responsible for the choices they make.

       

      ”  If having to pay support for unwanted children keeps some men from having sex because they don’t want to live with the consequences then good.   Sounds like child support laws remove some of the pleasure and fun.   Too bad.”

       

      Quick question – who is AGREEING to have sex with these men? Can’t be women. Then never have sex for pleasure or fun right? And if they do, they were probably lied to. They probably only consented based on that lie. It’s basically like they were raped.

       

      Try harder.

  19. 379
    Susan

    Tyrone seems to be saying if a woman gets pregnant it’s her problem.   Because of attitudes like that we have enforced child support laws.   If all men took responsibility we wouldn’t need them.

    1. 379.1
      Tyrone

      @ Susan

      YOU are the one acting as if the woman is blameless in the scenario. She didn’t trip, fall on a dick and get pregnant. SHE made the CHOICE to have UNPROTECTED SEX. The SAME choice the man made.  Once again you mention the responsibility of the man and willfully ignore the responsibility of the woman.  Why do you say he shouldn’t have had unprotected sex if he didn’t want a child but not apply this logic to her? If you believe it’s valid to say he shouldn’t have had sex if he didn’t want to risk a baby, you have to believe it is equally valid that SHE shouldn’t have had sex if she didn’t want to risk being impregnated by someone that doesn’t actually want to be a father.   Don’t you think a woman should be responsible for her actions as well? Or have take responsibility for all of the choices she makes along the way?  

    2. 379.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Susan

      While I agree that men should take precautions to avoid pregnancy, what about cases of misattributed paternity (a.k.a. paternity fraud) ?   Misattributed paternity is incredibly destructive to the man and the child.   Chastity and slut-shaming (which was originally created by women to eliminate competitors) were created to instill paternity assurance in men.   The real reason why men prefer non-promiscuous women is because it decreases the probability that they will end up being a cuckold.    A woman knows that child is her biological child.   A man assumes it, that is, unless he requests paternity testing at birth.

      https://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-cordell/problems-with-paternity-fraud-to-securing-parental-rights_b_9244342.html

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598159/pdf/475.pdf

      http://www.womenagainstpaternityfraud.org/about-us

       

  20. 380
    RustyLH

    Sonya Hazard’s analogy above is deeply flawed.   Two people cannot drive the car at the same time.   If you want to use cars as an analogy to this situation, it’s like this.

    A man and a woman both decide to buy a car.   However, after it is purchased, she now has all say over what is done with the car, and the man has no say.   She can take it back, or keep it.   He has no say.   He can only drive the car when she agrees to let him, or in such manner as he is allowed by a court.   He has to pay the bills for the car.   In some cases, all of them, or at a minimum, most of them.   In almost all cases, more than it actually costs to pay for and maintain that car.

    If he is not married to that woman, he can actually be required to support the car beyond what a married man would be.   A married man can actually have input on how much money is actually spent on the child.     An unmarried man does not have the same control over his life.   A married man can decide that he wants to take a lower paying job, because he is unhappy.   When I say married, I refer to men married to the mother of the child he is supporting.     He can choose to take a lower paying job to be happy.   Maybe he wants to move close to his mother and father who need him to be around as they grow old.   In so doing, he can force the rest of the family to adjust their standard of living.   They won’t have as much money now.

     

    But the man who is not married to the mother does not have that option.   He will be forced to maintain the same level of support, even if he can no longer afford it.   No matter what the truth is, this will be seen as a simple attempt to deny money to the mother.

    The simple fact is, they BOTH made the choice to have unprotected sex.   Look at this as if they both make the choice to get into a car in the fog and drive.   They may end up with no problems, or they may crash.   However, she is in the driver’s seat, and so she is the only one who controls the steering wheel, and the brakes, and the gas.   Now, oddly, if she crashes, HE is the one who has to pay…even if she willfully crashes the car.   Even when the fog clears, and she can see they will crash, but SHE CHOOSES to not step on the brakes, or turn the wheel, or turn the car off…SHE CHOOSES to purposely drive into something and crash…HE is the one who must now pay.

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