Should Men Be Forced to Pay For Children They Didn’t Want?

Should Men Be Forced to Pay For Children They Didn’t Want?Held By Father

I’m a man who helps women understand men. Not all men. Not in every situation. But, in general, if you want to hear how honest, loyal, sensitive, successful, confident, self-aware (and self-aggrandizing) men think, this blog is a pretty good place to start.

Which is why I’m excerpting what is sure to be a controversial post that recently ran in the New York Times. It was written by Laurie Shrage, a women’s studies professor in Florida and it’s like she took the words right out of my brain. In short, while no one in the world will defend deadbeat dads who don’t support their kids after a divorce, that’s a completely different scenario than men who are forced to support a child that they never wanted to have. In her opinion – and in mine – the law should reflect this obvious difference.

“If a man accidentally conceives a child with a woman, and does not want to raise the child with her, what are his choices? Surprisingly, he has few options in the United States. He can urge her to seek an abortion, but ultimately that decision is hers to make. Should she decide to continue the pregnancy and raise the child, and should she or our government attempt to establish him as the legal father, he can be stuck with years of child support payments.”

I’ve been around long enough to know that many women have the reflexive answer that if she accidentally got pregnant, he should be on the hook for it. But that doesn’t quite hold up logically. He can’t have a say over the birth of the fetus (because it’s her body), but she can have a say about whether he supports the accidentally conceived child for the next 18 years?

“The political philosopher Elizabeth Brake has argued that our policies should give men who accidentally impregnate a woman more options, and that feminists should oppose policies that make fatherhood compulsory. In a 2005 article in the Journal of Applied Philosophy she wrote, “if women’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a fetus, then men’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a resulting child.” At most, according to Brake, men should be responsible for helping with the medical expenses and other costs of a pregnancy for which they are partly responsible.”

Continues the author, “Feminists have long held that women should not be penalized for being sexually active by taking away their options when an accidental pregnancy occurs. Do our policies now aim to punish and shame men for their sexual promiscuity? Many of my male students (in Miami where I teach), who come from low-income immigrant communities, believe that our punitive paternity policies are aimed at controlling their sexual behavior. Moreover, the asymmetrical options that men and women now have when dealing with an unplanned pregnancy set up power imbalances in their sexual relationships that my male students find hugely unfair to them. Rather than punish men (or women) for their apparent reproductive irresponsibility by coercing legal paternity (or maternity), the government has other options, such as mandatory sex education, family planning counseling, or community service.”

Is any of this ideal? Of course not. But it’s reality. No matter what we legislate, men and women are going to get drunk, hook up, forget to wear a condom, and have to deal with the consequences of unplanned pregnancies. The question is: what’s fair? Shrage seems to suggest that the current laws are anything but.

“However, just as court-ordered child support does not make sense when a woman goes to a sperm bank and obtains sperm from a donor who has not agreed to father the resulting child, it does not make sense when a woman is impregnated (accidentally or possibly by her choice) from sex with a partner who has not agreed to father a child with her. In consenting to sex, neither a man nor a woman gives consent to become a parent, just as in consenting to any activity, one does not consent to yield to all the accidental outcomes that might flow from that activity.”

As the author proves, one can be a feminist, demand equal rights, and still believe that a system that penalizes men so harshly for an innocent mistake is unjust. While you are entitled to disagree with me, please understand that my whole business is about learning to put yourself in men’s shoes and find a measure of sympathy and understanding for them. By insisting that a man pay hundreds of thousands of dollars over a lifetime for a one-night stand and a broken condom, you are not indicating that you’re considering his plight at all.

Concludes Shrage, “Policies that punish men for accidental pregnancies also punish those children who must manage a lifelong relationship with an absent but legal father. These “fathers” are not “dead-beat dads” failing to live up to responsibilities they once took on — they are men who never voluntarily took on the responsibilities of fatherhood with respect to a particular child.”

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  1. 121

    I hear you Sparkling Emerald and feel lucky to have been brought up in an era and enviroment where I was taught by my parents and my school that sex was equated with lovemaking in a loving realtionship but was also warned that some men and boys would use girls bodies for sex without caring about them, taught how to spot them and not get involved with them.
    So all I can no hope to do as a parent and educator is teach my girls this and my boys how to be caring boys and not to want to become the type of man who uses women bodies for sport

  2. 122

    @ Scott #115:
    A romantic picture?  I think by the time a guy says he wants a woman to get an abortion she doesn’t want, all feelings of romance have already been tossed out the window.

  3. 123
    Karmic Equation

    If both a man and a woman are adamant against having children, they could double up on the contraception. She’s on the pill and he’s using a condom. If a pregnancy results from that, then that is a true accident and an act of god and the baby should be treated as a miracle. But who doubles up?

    If the child is born of white parents, that child would get adopted in a heartbeat. So if a woman feels abortion is a sin, but obviously didn’t feel that “fornication” was a sin, she could birth the child then put him/her up for adoption, in which case neither she nor the father would have any financial responsibility.

    Why aren’t we talking about adoption as an option, I wonder?

    In this case the father could have a say (adoption or not) — if not, he helps assume the financial burden.

    I know women bond with the developing child, but that is the consequence of bringing the pregnancy to term and it’s the risk SHE took to have carry the child to term. So, if adoption was agreed upon, but then she reneges, I think she should assume full financial responsibility. If she cannot afford to raise the child without aid, well, maybe some sort of open adoption needs to take place.

    Whatever the potential solution, I do agree that men shouldn’t have to pay if they did their absolute best to prevent a pregnancy, which means always wearing a condom that they provide themselves, regardless of whether the woman says she is on the pill or other BC. If a man can’t prove that they tried their best, then it wasn’t really an accident, it was negligence, in which the man should pay.

  4. 124
    Tom T

    Some things in life seem small and harmless but they aren’t. Sex is one of those things. Get over it. As someone else said, nobody wants to pay for anyone else’s joy rides. Women don’t have us by the balls. Grow up.

  5. 125

    One of The flaws is Elizabeths arguement re a woman having no obligation to support a fetus so a man should have no obligation to support  a child once here. Her logic is flawed.
    Here how it is flawed.
    As the law is equal in this area.
    Neither men or women are obligated to support a fetus.
    Both men and women are obligated to support a child once it is here. A fetus does not have the same rights as a child it is not equal to a child. Or the same rights as a woman. One is a real live peson and exists in reality.  The other is a potential person.
    It appears that what others are complaining about that is because a man doesn’t have equal rights over a womans body, the she shouldn’t have equal rights about his money.
    That is a different arguement to what Elizabeth is saying.
    That arguement is also logically flawed.
    Reality is she doesn’t have equal rights about his money. It’s the child who then gets the right to finacial support..Not the Mother that is why it is called child support. And the court decides how much not the woman
    Society doesn’t want to pay for other peoples accidents. Thet want them to take ADULT responsibilty for their own accidents.  And if mistakes have been made to learn from them. In the  case of accidental pregnancy are both equally responsible for the accident. Please note I used the word responsible not blame. The Father in these cases of unmarried mothers only pays a finacial percentage not an equal one.The woman still has most of the responsibilty.

  6. 126
    Tom T

    Rose 127: Points well made. Child support payments go to the child, via the custodial parent. The custodial parent can be a man or a woman and may not even be the biological parent. So this whole discussion has been flawed from the beginning because it’s been focusing on an outmoded stereotypical idea of the circumstances under which children are born and raised. The law in question isn’t about getting men to pay coercive seductive baby mommas, the law is about getting adults who are legally responsible for a child to care for that child. The default setting for custody is both biological parents, married or not, regardless of the circumstances of conception, which have always been hard to prove anyway. This last fact has always benefitted men, especially in cases of rape and unwanted paternity, but DNA testing has changed it in these last two cases.
    True, the physical facts of conception do mean that a man’s control over his part of the process ends before the woman’s does. It is true that she has the option of having an abortion or not, and a man has no say. This fact stems from the right of the individual to bodily autonomy; no one can tell another person what to do with his or her body. As Rose points out, an embryo or fetus is not an autonomous individual and has no say over what the mother does with her body post-conception. Neither does any other involved individual, including the man who impregnates a woman. In the act of procreation, his autonomous control over his own body extends only to when he ejaculates into a woman. In the act of procreation, her autonomous control over her own body extends until the child is born. This is fair. The idea here is if something is a part of your body (sperm, eggs, embryos), you get to say what happens to it. Once it’s outside of your body, other people get a say.
    But if two people procreate, both are financially responsible for the child, not just the man. How a child is cared (paid) for is completely separate from how the child is conceived–one has no bearing on the other. This separation continues throughout the dependent life of the child and benefits the non-custodial parent in some ways. For instance, a non-custodial parent cannot be denied visitation for non-payment of child support. This is also fair.
    But I suspect that what people are really upset about is that with DNA testing males can’t assert their privilege anymore, that nowadays we can’t hide from what we do. Heretofore it was very easy for some men to get away with all sorts of harmful things that couldn’t be proved in a court of law–murder, rape, denied paternity. But not anymore, and so now they’re all casting about for somebody to blame.
     Never liked these entitled sorts of guys and never will. I don’t know how any self-respecting guy can even hang around with them.

  7. 127

    “Evan Marc Katz
    No, it’s not the end of the discussion. That’s what the original post is about. It’s the beginning of a discussion about an unfair law. You don’t close discussion just because you say “end of discussion”.”
    Evan – What I meant by saying “end of discussion” was not to attempt to shut down the conversation.  It’s my way of saying “it is what it is.”  No matter how much someone bemoans of how unfair the consequences are of their actions – the bottom line is that this is a consequence that will always be possible.  There’s no debating this (why I said end of discussion).  It’s a fact of life. 
    Now both parties know this before becoming sexually active.  Bemoaning an unfair pregnancy after the fact is futile.  Nature created us a certain way, and some ways have been found to circumvent the end game – but none are 100% foolproof.  So if knowledge is power – all one can do is
    I’m speaking as a woman who men have asked to be the mother of their child.  I’m single, unmarried, in my 30’s, and will not become a parent until the timing is right (as in after marriage).   I’ve been fortunate enough to have never been pregnant, but this is likely due to my approach with sex.  There will (likely) be no accidents on my part, as I take the responsibility very seriously.
    However – if one were to occur – a man cannot understand what it is to find out that a life is growing inside you.  The woman gets to experience all of these things – not the man.  The man only gets to have a logical, rational conclusion without all of the changes happening to them.  The woman?  Not so much.  I’d wager that there are a few women that were they given the opportunity to make a decision without having the child in them – perhaps the outcome would have differed.  Men may call this unfair – but they really don’t have to bear the full brunt of the situation besides child support, and sometimes – not even that. 
    There are women who are prochoice and the like, but once put in the situation were unable to go through with having an abortion.  I’ve also seen women who went through with it but needed serious emotional support afterwards for feeling as if they murdered their child, the life that they knew & felt growing inside of them.  All of which, men know nothing of.   Fairness?  The system was created with an unfair tilt – as in an ideal world – both men & woman would get to equally share & experience the entire gammit of the situation – from conception to end decision (whatever that may be).  However that’s not the world we live in.
    Now I understand that the playing field is in the process of being leveled (men’s birth control on the near horizon) and the onus will no longer be so much on the woman.  It will be interesting to see the reactions of women who do this type of thing intentionally – hoping to conceive, but to find out that the man in question is on birth control and is thereby unable to do so for the time being.  For the record:  I do not support women intentionally conceiving, knowing that their partner does not want a child.  It all boils down to trust:  can you really trust the person you are choosing to have sex with to honor what you both have decided is what you want?  Can you both be trusted to each honor their part / responsibility in the having of sex (including keeping condoms in the mix) to ensure the end conclusion of not conceiving a life? 
    Again:  bemoaning the way nature made us is pretty much useless.  I’ll take it a step further:  fellas, when you keep dealing with a woman who wants more from you than you’re willing to give her – and you make the choice to continue sleeping with her anyway – can you really be surprised / angry when eventually this woman pulls the “ultimate” stunt of “becoming pregnant?”  I don’t agree, no, but be aware.  Be accountable.  There is nothing new under the sun.  This has been going on for centuries, and yet every day:  it continues (needlessly).  Realize when the stakes are just a little too high and choose to walk away and meet someone else.  “Crazy” women are great in bed, they say?  Okay.  But do you really want a surprise baby with crazy?  No?  Then walk away.  That is your ultimate weapon to prevent a surprise scenario.  Trying to find ways to have your cake and eat it too?   I’m underwhelmed.

  8. 128
    Sparkling Emerald

    Karmic Equation @ 125
    Best post on this topic.  Perhaps you should become a family court lawyer !

  9. 129

    A man should always pay for an accidental pregnancy if he has signed a contract beforehand. If he gets a girl pregnant and they had no prior agreement then he should have a choice to support the mother or opt out. The marriage contract served exactly this purpose until the government got involved in the marriage business and destroyed the institution.

  10. 130

    To me, accidental pregnancy needs to be viewed differently. Currently there is an expectation that sex ‘should’ be consequence free. It isn’t.  There are emotional, mental, psychological, spiritual and physical consequences every single time. This does not make any individuals choices for themselves right or wrong, more moral or less moral.  It does make our choices more in need of conscious thought. If a person decides they are ok with one night stands then they also need to be ok with another person NOT being ok with one night stands and broach this topic before engaging one. They need to be ok with the risks of disease and the risks of pregnancy. They need to be knowledgeable about disease and pregnancy prevention and ok knowing there is no 100% guarantee.
    There are consequences for the choices we make. Accidental pregnancy has consequences. For a woman this is the rock and hard place of an unplanned child or an unwanted medical proceedure, both of which she will have to live with for the rest of her life. For a man, this is knowing the decision is not his. No-one walks away scott free! 

  11. 131

    Wait a second! Last I knew it takes 2 to make a baby. If guys are that resentful that a woman doesn’t want to have an abortion, then they should eliminate the possibility that they can impregnate! Get fixed, no vaginal intercourse. It would solve a lot of problems if men though with the larger of their two heads, but since man’s main function is to populate the earth, that’s asking a LOT!

  12. 132

    It takes two to make a baby and they thrive best with two bonded parents who are bonded to them.
    Men and womens main function are to pair bond mate and raise their children together. And to populate the world this way. Not to have recreational disconnected sex with any old Tom Dick or Harry, or Fanny, Mary or Penny.

  13. 133

    Remember when we are talking about rules: people will lie.  Men will tell women they will support the child (so she will consent to sex with no condom), then lie and claim she agreed to have an abortion after the sex leads to conception.  Women will tell men they are on the pill, and then go to court and say she warned him he better wear a condom because she is incredibly fertile.  All well and good to argue over what rule we should have based on a particular set of facts, but in the real world it takes time and money and lawyers and judges to determine the facts, and we can’t afford to devote that many resources to figuring out what actually happened in a classic “he said, she said” situation.  Which is why we have a clear rule that does not depend on who said what to whom, and everyone knows the rule, and guys who don’t want to be on the hook for child support need to make wise choices about multiple methods of protection.  Not because the rule is perfect or always “fair”.  But because we can’t afford to provide a “fair” result all the time.  There simply aren’t enough judges to hear all those cases.  And I for one don’t want my taxes going up to cover either the cost of someone else’s kid or the cost of hiring more judges to figure out what the drunk guy really said to the drunk gal at 3 am after they went back to her place from the bar.  When you put it that way, maybe it isn’t so bad that the NSA is bugging eveyrone’s cell phone.  When the parents argue, we can just have the NSA to play back the transcript!

  14. 134

    @ EMK 105
    I understand where you’re coming from. You got pregnant; you want him to pay for it. It’s dimestore selfishness without regard for fairness, but I get it. Your inability to understand that there is a very valid opposing point of view is really the appalling sidenote of this thread.
    The thing is that I do understand your point of view. I worked for many years with low income workers, and I saw first-hand how child support drained men of money they desperately needed for bills and rent. It’s unfair, but it’s reality. They brought children into the world, and whether or not they intended to, they gained a responsibility in doing so. It’s unfortunate but true, and I really felt for them in such a bad situation. So no, I’m not unable to understand where you’re coming from. I just disagree.
    Also, it seems a bit like you’re thinking I’ve had an unintended pregnancy, but this couldn’t be further from the truth. Even if I had, I would not expect a man to help me pay for my child. Honestly, if he didn’t want to contribute, I’d consider myself and my child better off without him!
    But for a woman without money, what are her options? What if she makes $20,000/yr in a factory? Abortion (which isn’t free and is against the religion/morals of some and is hard to get in some states), adoption (again, not free because of medical bills, and emotionally and physically draining because of the pregnancy and birth, not to mention time off work), or keeping the child. They’re all bad options, but a woman has to pick one. Not all women are crazy to have babies. Some just have to make the best of a bad situation.

  15. 135

    I think this is a difficult topic for many to see from the other side due to the fact that both men and women are looking out for their best interests. I can definitely see how it is unfair for men, but as a woman I am not entirely convinced that men are able to truly empathize. I am very much on the side of “accept consequences of your actions” but by no means do I think the onus is entirely on men to prevent unwanted pregnancy.
    So you’re in a situation where you have accidentally gotten a girl pregnant. You wore a condom, but it broke. Maybe the pill didn’t work. These things are NOT infallible. The fault lies with neither of you, but you’re stuck in a situation you didn’t want to be in. This sucks for both parties, but let’s look at our options.
    1. Abortion. I totally understand that it is unfair that men have no say, but please also try and consider the woman’s perspective. Assuming there are no moral/religious objections, it is still a very invasive procedure, and to say “just get an abortion!” is as absurd to some women as the idea of abstaining from sex is for some men.
    2. Keeping the child. Now if a man doesn’t want a child, that’s fine. Don’t blame you. But it is literally the only other option to abortion (adoption notwithstanding at this point because I am really only referring to the decision to carry out or terminate the pregnancy).
    Also consider the biological process that women go through. You become fiercely protective of it, sometimes against your own will. I’m not trying to use this as justification, merely trying to get some of you to see it from the other side, as is so frequently preached here. It’s a hard decision to make, and to treat it like it’s not only demonstrates your lack of empathy. 
    Just as a side note, I had an abortion when I accidentally fell pregnant at 19. It was a broken condom situation that fortunately my boyfriend and I were on the same side of. Neither of us were ready financially or emotionally. It was hands down the most harrowing and awful experiences of my life and I truly do not think I would do it again had I known the psychological cost. I didn’t even want the child!
    I saw someone say that a woman should be more discerning when choosing a sexual partner. The same logic can be used for men who get trapped into fatherhood. People, in general, need to make smarter decisions when it comes to sex. 
    To be honest I am really disappointed by some of the things I have read. I see both men and women not trying to see things from the other’s perspective, whilst stubbornly protecting their position. Evan, you talk about women seeing the unfairness from a man’s point of view, but I have seen very little of men trying to put themselves in a woman’s shoes. 
    A woman cries “it’s MY body” and the man cries “it’s MY money”, it’s all so entitled and self centred. Some poor child gets raised with a father saying I never wanted you and a mother saying all men are scum. So how do we stop it getting to that point? A man cannot control what a woman does with her body, and I don’t think a woman should be able to control a man’s wallet with a child. So where do we draw the line? You can only control yourself, so maybe you should be more careful about who you bang.
    I completely agree that a woman impregnating herself against a man’s wishes is abhorrent, but in the event of a genuine accidental pregnancy, where the man doesn’t want it, but the woman chooses to keep the child, as it is her choice she should shoulder the financial responsibility. HOWEVER, a man who abandons a child (yes even an accidental one) is a pretty shitty man if you want my honest opinion. 

  16. 136
    Tom T

    Lizzy136: Another well-made point. Not all women are crazy to have babies. I don’t really speak with the women at work about this, but the professional women I know have a lot to lose from an unplanned pregnancy and they are avoiding it in the same way the men are. I have no idea who these women are who are looking to trap a man into having a baby via a one-night stand. I don’t know even one person who became a parent through a one-night stand. And I know a lot of people across a diverse range of environments and economic backgrounds. Are people making this stuff up?  Are the men who are all enraged about this paranoid? It often seems this way to me.  

  17. 137
    Lady Z

    Well said leila @ 137.
    My take on it.
    Women >>>>> Get your tubes tied!

  18. 138

    Should men be forced to pay for children they didn’t want?
    When a man has vaginal sex with woman, he assumes the risks for that behavior — the most significant of which is pregnancy.
    As women are often told in other threads like older men prefer younger women — that is the way it is, so accept it and change your strategy.
    Men – as it currently stands in our society — if a woman gets pregnant as a result of vaginal sex with you — recreational or not — lied to or not — you are responsible for the support of the resulting child(ren).  If you don’t like that — you have a number of options such as:
    1.  Reduce the risk of pregnancy during vaginal sex for recreational purposes – use some form of birth control or have a vasectomy.
    2.  Eliminate the risk of pregnancy by not having vaginal sex for recreational purposes – such as masturbation, hand jobs, blow jobs, anal sex, abstinence, etc.
    3.  Lobby/work to change the laws dealing with child support issues.
    4.  Deal with issue post pregnancy – try to convince the woman to have an abortion.  All you can do is try to convince her.  If she chooses not to, that is her choice.  You cannot force her to do so.
    5.  Another post pregnancy option in some instances – terminate your parental rights.
    Unfortunately, as it has been said many, many times — you cannot control the actions of others.  Ergo, you cannot control the choices a woman makes with her body as it relates to pregnancy.  All you can control is where your sperm ends up.  If you don’t want to be responsible for paying child support for an unwanted pregnancy…then figure out how to keep your sperm out of the vagina of a woman you don’t want to get pregnant.  There are other options (as noted above), so stop whining and complaining about wanting to have recreational sex without risk of pregnancy and child support.  It is not realistic in our current society.
    NOTE:  For the record, I don’t believe any parent — male or female — should get out of child support.  The parent who does not have physical custody of the child pays child support.  I’ve seen an increasing number of women who don’t have physical custody of the child(ren) try to get out of child support.  Sorry ladies — just like the gentlemen — you pay too.

  19. 139
    Just a Feminist

    The law should be if an unmarried woman not on the pill decides to have sex and gets pregnant then she should get an abortion, adoption, or assume all financial resposibility after the baby is born. ( he accidently created it but didn’t choose to raise it) It should be clear that unmarried sex is for recreation and married sex for procreation. If she was on the pill and still got pregnant then she should’ve used a female condom, morning after, sue or not take antibiotics while on bc but the same would apply.

    . Since she has the option to carry a child; she should have the most responsiblity.

    That may seem harsh but just as a man should wear a condom properly an unmarried woman should do her due dilligence in finding the most effective bc for her body chemistry (allergies etc)

    I would never choose to have a baby with a guy unmarried because it’s very risky. I would also not have sex without the pill or morning after pill with me. It’s not morally right to ask someone to parent or pay for my choice just because they’re laws inplace that protect my choice but not his.

  20. 140

    Just a Feminist. There are no laws is place that are in place that protect a woman choice but not a mans. That is a misconception based on a false analogy.
    There are laws in place that give both men and women equal body autonomy.
    And laws in place that both responsible once a child is here in finacially providing for a child.

    1. 140.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Rose, I’m not really sure you understand logic or what a false analogy is. Sorry. The existing laws say (rightfully) that a woman has the right to choose what she does with her body. The existing laws also say (wrongfully, imho) that a man has NO right to choose whether to support the unwanted child. Just because there’s a law doesn’t mean it’s a just or fair law. That’s what the original post is about. The woman has the right to decide whether to carry the baby to term. The man has no rights whatseover. Why is this so hard for you to digest logically? You can disagree with what I consider fair, but logically, this makes perfect sense. The man has no rights after sex, except for the obligation to do whatever the woman decides.

  21. 141

    Evan Post !27 explains how it is a false analogy
    My conclusion of it being a false analogy also coincides with the judge who dissmissed the case that was brought to the court of appea on the same grounds of it being faulty perception and faulty reasoning.

  22. 142

    Wow this discussion is so absurd. By now it should make sense to everyone, or at least the enraged males contributing, that abortion is not a woman’s right. When consenting to sex women and men should equally foresee the possible consequence – the birth of the child – and live with the consequences of their choices. Hey, this is what sex is for – procreation. Why abort the innocent child?? Recreational sex without consequences is impossible unless you avoid intercourse.
    On a sidenote, Evan I cannot believe you voluntarily disclosed your convictions on this matter here. They are equally shocking and disappointing to both liberal females who believe in access to abortion and conservatives such as myself. I must agree however, yes, unlike the liberal females’ opinions, yours are logically coherent. But really abhorrent nonetheless!!

    1. 142.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Actually, Eva, abortion is a right since Roe v. Wade. Welcome to democratic America. Goodbye from my abhorrent blog.

  23. 143

    He had a choice when he put his weenie inside her… Unless he was raped which would be hard to prove. The night he made the baby he trusted her AT THAT POINT with his seed. He trusted her to make the discussion to have a child or not have a child (should one be made)… 
    If we change the rules around ALL men will say they didn’t ‘want’ the child to avoid paying. Think about how hurtful this would be to a child? 
    I think people need to realize the point of sex is to create life. The only full proof way to prevent this not having sex. 

  24. 144

    @Tom I got pregnant from a one night stand. I was very young (teen) and virgin. We used a condom. I was not trying to conceive. Back then I HATED kids. HATED! I had a I never seen him again and I never bothered to tell him.

  25. 145

    Here’s the best way to make this fair for all sides. If the man makes it known during the course of the pregnancy that he does not want to be the father of the child, and the woman chooses to have it anyways, he should be absolved of any financial responsibility for that child. Even if the woman does not want an abortion, putting up for adoption is still an option and if she refuses both, then she wants that child bad enough to be willing to go thru the burden of raising it alone. Physically and financially. 
    However, if the man does express an interest in being the father, or does not make an objection at any point, then I have no objection to him being financially responsible if he is not with the mother. Also if the woman agrees to have the abortion, then both should be responsible for the cost. 
    If the man has no say so in whether or not she has or keeps the child, then the woman (or government) should have no say in whether or not the man supports it. And I don’t want to hear any body autonomy crap either. That isn’t an argument. Adoption is still out there if you have moral objections to adoption. 
    It sure is funny how alot of women scream for equal rights, or complain when things aren’t equal, except when the inequality is an advantage for them. 

    1. 145.1

      But many women would also agree with your suggestion, Derek. I wish there were a movement ~ a reasonable one, not the weird extremist MRAs that seem to hate all women ~ that championed more fairness in issues like child support, alimony, etc. You might be surprised to see how many fair-minded women would be in favour of such reforms.

  26. 146

    *moral objections to abortion, rather. 

  27. 147

    I just found about this site and have read most of the hundred plus comments – I think the following:
    We drive cars not expecting to have an accident but know it’s a potential risk and outcome of driving even if we follow the rules of the road and all. In the end we are responsible for the outcome. 
    With sex, if you lie down you’re bound to get up with something you didn’t start with – a broken heart, STD or a fertilized egg, etc. It’s just a part of life – we take action and then there are the results of the action. 
    Men – If you don’t want children with a woman, don’t have sex so readily and consider that each time this woman could be the mother if your children ( forever), get a vasectomy or practice safe sex, but do know you can’t expect to lie down and not get up with something each time. It’s Russian roulette in a nutshell. and last I checked…we empathize but don’t overtly sympathize with people who play Russian roulette. They knew the outcome before they got started and so do men and women having sex. 

  28. 148
    Karl T

    Agemindc #151,
    You’re missing the main point of the argument.  It’s not about what the chances are of getting pregnant or advice to minimize getting pregnant, it’s about after the fact that the woman has 100% of the say about an abortion and whether you think that is fair or not.  

  29. 149

    I feel mixed on this.
    A minority of women do maliciously get pregnant on purpose, for whatever reason, even if they know the man doesn’t want a baby. In such a circumstance, I don’t think it’s fair for a man to have his life affected because of such a selfish decision.
    On the other hand, if a man really doesn’t want to find himself in such circumstances he has choices. Put a condom on and make sure it’s fresh and hasn’t been tampered with, OR only sleep with women you know and trust.
    Either way it does take two to make a baby, and men need to be responsible if they don’t want to find themselves becoming fathers before they’re ready, or with women they don’t want that with.

  30. 150

    Evan 62 – yes, it isn’t as easy as it looks.  I’m so glad I’m anonymous on here.  My own daughter found herself in the same situation.  She took the pill (it didn’t work) and he wasn’t wearing the condom.
    She wanted the baby and he didn’t.  As a grandmother, (i.e. which side will I take? My own child’s, right?) I thought he was a shit to not acknowledge his child and pay custody.  But he said he didn’t want the baby.  My daughter did.
    So, what’s a woman to do? Give her own daughter the money to sue him in court? She would have won – the kid is the spitting image of her father, and in addition, the DNA would have showed without a doubt that he’s the happy Papa.
    This is where it stinks – because there’s a third person here – the child.
    After a lot of humming and ha’ing, I decided not to help her out to sue him to get him to pay alimony. 
    The father does not want the baby.
    If he gets to pay alimony, he could also……claim the right to see the baby
    Guess who will be affected the most – after much thought, quite a lot of tears, (my own!), I thought, sod it, and hope to God that this “xxxxxxxinsert insulting omment for the man” never wants a child himself with another woman, or, never gets to have one.

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