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And before thou dost protest too much because you’re the happily married woman who hopped into bed and are still in love 30 years later?
Chill. You’re the exception. Here’s the rule:
“Investigators surveyed roughly 11,000 people on when a couple first got frisky. Compared to couples who had sex before they started dating or during the first three weeks of their relationship, those who waited actually rated their current relationship as more satisfying and more stable. They also reported greater levels of positive communication.”
“Sexclusivity”: don’t sleep with a guy until he’s your boyfriend.
You mean fucking an attractive stranger you’ve known for 3 hours and hoping that you’re compatible in the long run is a bad idea? REALLY?
“There is compelling evidence that waiting to have sex until later in the relationship is associated with better relationship dynamics and outcomes,” says study co-author Brian Willoughby, PhD, an associate professor in the School of Family Life at Brigham Young University.
This isn’t just conservative Mormon B.S. This correlates with what you know from reality. He sleeps with you on the first date. You think it means he likes you or wants to be your boyfriend. In fact, all it means is that he wanted to have sex with you. He’ll figure out in a few weeks or months whether he actually likes you enough to commit to you. But why is sex too early so dangerous? According to the article:
Not surprisingly, having sex creates powerful emotional bonds. If those bonds are forged too early, they may saddle a relationship with baggage that can complicate the partnership before both partners are ready, Willoughby theorizes. Having sex sooner might also compell us to stay in relationships that we know aren’t built to last, the study suggests.
Finally, “women who delay sex are more driven to invest in their relationships,” says one researcher, adding that the research results were consistent across age groups, races, and religious affiliations.
The word I’ve coined for this is “sexclusivity”. Don’t sleep with a guy until he’s your boyfriend. Wait a month or so before you do so. And if/when you do finally have sex, you are guaranteed that it’ll be with a guy who you like, trust, and know enough to be worthy of commitment – as opposed to letting lust take over and then keeping your fingers crossed.
Read the article here and please, share your thoughts below.
Selena says
“sexclusivity” I like it. 🙂
Jenna says
Let me just say that I hardly know anybody who waited more than a few weeks or dates with their long term partner before sex. With the right guy it’s not all that important. The problem as I see it is that you don’t know who the right guy is that quickly. If you always sleep with someone on the second or third date and they end up being your bf, then great, no problem. Otherwise, I have found it more romantic to wait a little for sex, 4-6 weeks. If you’re serious about marriage you also can’t risk getting prematurely attached to the wrong guy.
At the same time I’m young, pretty and social and simply not willing to live like a nun for a bf that may or may not come along. So I’ve started a rule that in more formal situations like online dating then yes, no sex unless we’re bf/gf. In more fluid real life interactions, I am additionally forbidden from sleeping with people who upfront say it’s only casual, hence why I recently turned down a few tempting fwb opportunities. I want to be freed up to find the guy for me, honestly. If a chance to sleep with someone comes along that feels right to me I wil grab it, though, but I was never one of those girls who jumped into bed the same night anyway or thought sex was going to become something more….
Christine says
The irony is that often enough you’re going to lose the guy that you’re waiting to have sex with… not because “he just wanted to sleep with you” … but because you’re arbitrarily denying a connection instead of trusting your instincts to know when the moment is right … Breaking news – guys aren’t all idiots. He will sense that you are forgoing sex for your arbitrary reason, and may move on to a girl that has a natural sex drive ‘and’ also cares. Don’t pretend that if a guy moves on it was because he didn’t have sex, rather he may move on because the relationship didn’t progress when it should have.
Debbie says
BS, the guys not worth it and are u a female?
Paul says
Well said!
mary says
well Jenna As girls we are different, i had sex with my boyfriend for the first time when we reached six months of dating. It was worth waiting
Dagaz says
um… i always was curious how this rule applies to long distance relationships?…
given that you don’t often see the man/woman, sometimes for months? if physically they met couple times, but being apart for 3 moths, let’s say – does this time(3 month) “counts” toward the proclaimed waiting time?
or, even better, if they can see each other quite rarely – in this case would be logical to use any moment of “real life” meeting definetely not for verbal communication only?…
Potato says
I had a long distance relationship with a guy that lasted about a year and we never met. Around six months we started sexting. I think that if you both are committed to the relationship then do whatever you want man. I really enjoyed my experience.
Ann says
??? that is not a relationship! you never met?????
Rose says
I don’t want causal sex and to feel objectified, so waiting a month would hardly feel right or long enough for me. I don’t want my body used as a vessel or receptacle for someone to relieve their hormones or stress. YUCK!
I want to know the man before deciding if I want to know his manhood. How on earth does anyone know someone after a month?
I only want to share my body and my love to be made love to as an expression of that persons love for me and mine for them.
Reality is for most women casual sex is a fast way to get hormonally attached and addicted to the wrong man and a broken heat if what you want is to be in a loving committed relationship.
If that is what others want to do is up to them and to decide iif it right for them just not right for me or what I want.
John says
Jenna #2
“Otherwise, I have found it more romantic to wait a little for sex, 4-6 weeks. If you’re serious about marriage you also can’t risk getting prematurely attached to the wrong guy.”
I understand why you have this little rule of yours. But it is giving you a false sense of security. You somehow feel that it will mean more or the guy will take you more seriously because he agreed to wait. But that is so not true. If a guy is going to pump and dump you, he will do it whether its the 3rd date or 10th date. Somehow you believe that by making him wait, you are controlling the situation when in reality, you dont.
I think maybe you get too close if you sleep with a guy too soon and if thats true then by all means wait 6 weeks. But if you think that making him wait is indiciative of his interest level, think again. If the guy has options, he will be getting his action elsewhere until you feel it is safe to get down and dirty. He may like you enough to wait, but dont be oblivious to the fact there is a good chance some other lady is filling the void you aren’t providing. And if you think “oh he isnt screwing around with other girls”, you may be right but you may be wrong as well. Of course if he doesnt have any other options then maybe you will be his one and only.
Rose says
John.
“He may like you enough to wait, but dont be oblivious to the fact there is a good chance some other lady is filling the void you aren’t providing.”
Only time would tell on that one. And boy would I feel relieved and grateful that I didn’t share my body with him as I don’t want to be the woman who fills a void for any man. DEFO the type of man I don’t or wouldn’t want.
The other woman and him would be much more suited to each other if what he wanted was to have sex to fill a void and she was happy to accommodate that.
RW says
>> If a guy is going to pump and dump you, he will do it whether its the 3rd date or 10th date.
In theory I agree with this but the question is, if all he wants to do is “pump and dump her”, why would he stick around for the 10th date? If he is indeed getting it elsewhere as you suggest, why continue to wine and dine a girl he has no interest in beyond sex? He can get plenty of that, as you correctly pointed out, with his other options.
In any case, I don’t think waiting 4-6 weeks is about trying to control the situation. It’s only about negating the possibility of getting attached to someone who is incompatible.
I read the article and thought “be still my beating heart”. This is what I have believed and argued for so long.
Lisa says
Hi. Girl here who has been pumped and dumped after ten dates and after 90 days more than a handful of times. These guys invest a lot of money and time then they have sex with me a lot for a month or so then “realize” I’m not someone they could ever see themselves with long term or some other bs excuse and move on! So this whole waiting game does not work for me. I’d rather do it early on although never on a first date and find out his real intentions. I am considered by many to be very attractive. I have a body type that’s sexy no matter what I wear 34Dd naturally big butt hips etc. I have a Phd and a pretty powerful job. Men want to conquer me. I’ve read about this a lot. Sometimes when a female is very good looking men are blinded by their desire to sleep with her so much so that they are not focusing on whether she is compatible or if they really like her because that is all they focus on is the sex. Before you say oh you must be bad in bed these men stick around for a few months to enjoy the sex so that’s not true but once they’ve had their fill they start to look behind the sex and realize they don’t even like the girl. I don’t think a lot of men even do this on purpose. So if you are a really good looking girl I don’t Think his method of waiting will work. Oh and all of these guys say we are exclusive and they are serious. My current bf and I slept together on the second date and six months in going strong.
Deedee says
All true. I’m not curvaceous like you but with model type looks and body. I’m smart and skilled but I’m treated as an adversary by most men in and out of the workplace. They’ll chase after my cute or plain-faced, basic girlfriends, but will always have this air of plotting around me. I stopped letting all that bother me though. It’s important that a man I’m dating simply sees me as a lovable woman and not as one who has to be conquered. For me, this is a greater issue than the timing of sex.
Specks says
Here here! Finally a real comment! Nice one, I feel this was the most realistic. I think it doesn’t matter if it’s the 3rd date or the 100th because it’s about how you make them feel about themselves and how much stress you don’t bring to their lives. Sometimes however you may find a few (ahem many) guys who are not looking for love or connection. I agree, get it all out in the open in the beginning. Ask questions, find out, maybe he doesn’t know yet but if he can say that, that’s at least honesty. If it’s just casual and you’re fine with it not going anywhere, great. If you want something more, voice it and require an honest response, trust your gut. Connecting is about comminication! Everyone wants someone who will be their best friend and biggest support as well as their lover. For me, I just don’t want to waste my time waiting around/getting attached for months only to find out he’s lost interest or was only telling me what I wanted to hear to get what he wanted. Bo ring. Get to the nitty gritty, have an honest conversation and decide about sex after that. If he splits, his loss, stay confident and caring and one will find you and never let go â¤
silvia says
Thanks for sharing this Lisa!!
Rose says
I don’t want a man who is choosing to screw around or who wants to screw around to fill a void because the options for him to do so are there.
I wouldn’t choose a man who wanted to do that.
LC says
Waiting to find a man who wants to stick around to wait for sex (i.e. he might actually like you as a person) mean you’ll be celibate for a LONG time. Sometimes its been 5 years between men for me. But then, if you try to give a guy a chance and have sex the early stages, you find he holds it against you and thinks you’re a slut. We gals just cannot win.
Karen K says
I totally agree!! I had a long distance relationship, meeting him online, and he came down for a week, of course after emailing and calling for 6 months, and I slept with him on the second night. Sure enough, the first fight we had, he was like, “Just go and sleep with some other guys right off the bat like you did me…” I was like, “WTF?” had I NOT slept with him, after him taking vacation and coming down, he would have b*tched about that!! You can’t win for losing. Ever. Men are studs and women are sluts. It will never change.
Specks says
TOTALLY.
John says
Rose @6
“Only time would tell on that one. And boy would I feel relieved and grateful that I didn’t share my body with him as I don’t want to be the woman who fills a void for any man”
But Rose you are missing my point. He wouldn’t tell you that he is getting his action elsewhere. You are thinking that because you are waiting and not sharing your body, he is doing the same thing. And that could be 100% wrong. So yes, only time will tell. Most guys (and I sure Evan too in his prime) will get action from another girl if she makes him wait too long. I know there are times when the guy wont mind waiting AND wont date others during that 6 weeks. But that is the exception to the rule.
Its all nice and romantic and so Lifetime Channel special to think the guy is waitng patiently for you. But the dating reality is that unless the guy thinks you are The One (which happens very rarely), he is getting off with someone else if you make him wait to long if he has options. But you keep thinking that is so untrue if it makes you feel better.
Joe says
John, most guys who aren’t really interested in a woman won’t wait around for that long. Him sticking around sans sex is an indication that he’s interested in something more than just sex. Waiting isn’t a 100% foolproof method, but it does increase the odds.
Angie says
Any man worth dating will respect this, and I have had an ex who also wanted to wait because he “felt (he and I) could be something and didn’t want to get all distracted by lust”. Yes, had a former boyfriend tell me that in the first few weeks of dating.
I agree with Evan’s “sexclusivity” idea (ps, love that term). I just tell guys four things:
(1) I won’t sleep with you unless you are only sleeping with me. I will not be Miss Friday if Miss Saturday is coming over tomorrow.
(2) If I sleep with you, it’s just another way to keep getting to know you, and I see myself getting more attached/having stronger feelings.
(3) I’m safe, and plan to keep it that way.
(4) I’ll let you know when I’m ready, but obviously I’m thinking about it.
Actually, I find that this works AFTER fooling around maybe the second time or something. Usually, when a guy invites me in or I invite him in, “I just go ‘Ok, as long as you’re a complete gentleman, if you know what I mean?” Once, you’ve sort of cooled down, you can just say “Hey, can I talk to you about sex?”
I’m not sassy or commanding when I say ‘I don’t want to be part of a rotation’; to be honest, guys usually laugh at that idea. But I don’t usually want a boyfriend who wants to still play the game.
By all means, if you want sex, let lust be your guide, but set your expectations appropriately as far as relationships go.
^ oh, and ps, I think telling someone you need them to be your “boyfriend” before you have sex is unnecessary. I think if you just tell them you don’t want share and you see your self developing deeper feelings and getting to know them, it’s implied that you are interested in a relationship but lacks the desperate sound of “you need to be my boyfriend”. (I think that sounds desperate, and that you want commitment from anyone… not that you are cool and that you still are evaluating him as relationship material). I guess it depends on the person, though.
Karmic Equation says
@Rose & LC
Do you gals do ANYTHING sexual (e.g., make out, round the bases) while getting to know him? Or are you both completely hands off.
And Rose, if you don’t mind my asking, how old are you? I don’t need exact age, just the late-decades 🙂 i.e., early 30’s or late 40’s, etc. I don’t mean to intrude, but to me it’s relevant as I read some of your responses and questions.
@John & Joe
I think it’s interesting that two men might disagree on the waiting. But you’re not really disagreeing, just pointing out different aspects of the waiting.
What John’s saying…that while the guy may wait around for sex with you, he’s more than likely getting action elsewhere while he’s waiting. Especially if he’s a man with options.
And Joe’s saying, well, even if he’s getting action elsewhere, the fact that he’s willing to wait at all means he may be interested in more than sex, though not guaranteed.
NET:
Waiting isn’t harmful, but neither is it a guarantee that you actually “mean” something to him when sex finally happens. Just understand what he’s not getting from you when he’s waiting, he’s likely getting from someone else.
So, are you ok with
1) “sharing” the guy and fooling yourself that he’s just as chaste as you are?
2) Or do you accept that with eyes wide open?
3) Or do you try pre-empt his sleeping with other girls by sleeping with him as often as he wants to?
Kind of supports my sexual-revolution-did-not-free-women stance, huh?
I go with #3 myself and I’m eternally grateful that I can have sex without bonding. I don’t wait for sexclusivity for sex, but rather until I have deemed the guy worthy, which usually takes a handful of times of hanging out. There are no promises of sexclusivity from me before or after sex, since I don’t want to be stuck with a lousy lover. And there’s only one way to find that out.
Ruby says
Hopefully, I’m still dating or communicating with other people myself before a man asks me to be exclusive, so I’m not closing out my options too soon anyway. It’s never about controlling the man’s behavior, since I can’t do that. It’s about controlling my own behavior and feelings so I’m not solely at the mercy of someone else’s decisions.
I’ve dated men who didn’t mind waiting, and also weren’t sleeping with anyone else. But even if they were, so what? If a man is not interested in me as more than a sex-partner, he’s not going to stick around long-term anyway.
Karmic
“3) Or do you try pre-empt his sleeping with other girls by sleeping with him as often as he wants to?
Kind of supports my sexual-revolution-did-not-free-women stance, huh?
I go with #3 myself and I’m eternally grateful that I can have sex without bonding. . I don’t wait for sexclusivity for sex, but rather until I have deemed the guy worthy, which usually takes a handful of times of hanging out. There are no promises of sexclusivity from me before or after sex, since I don’t want to be stuck with a lousy lover. And there’s only one way to find that out.”
Are you sure the sexual revolution didn’t free you? If your stance isn’t supportive of the sexual revolution, i don’t know what is.
Kaitt says
Hello, I just wanted to say thank you for commenting on this, because this is an issue I have been pondering in my mind, and you just gave me a new outlook/point of view on this. It’s interesting and I like it
Specks says
Agreed and a very smart way to approach this.
Julia says
Can we all agree that “pump and dump” is a disgusting term and we can convey they meaning without using such a trashy and disrespectful term.
Personally, I think a new rule should be to never sleep with a guy who says “pump and dump”
marymary says
If he wasn’t making it clear that he was waiting too, ie not shagging around, I would ask. If he was evasive, I’d assume he was and wonder what I’m doing with someone evasive. If he lied, I’ve got a bigger problem than when to have sex. I’d be dating a liar. I don’t believe that all or even most men are out to deceive women or fool them. That’s not my experience. But the ones that too tend to leave behind a big wake.
I believe that a relationship ready man will make that clear. If he’s serious about you, he will make it clear. If he’s in it just for fun, I could tell; not because I’m a man whisperer but his actions and/or words would tell me. Some men can not be sure but genuinely open. They will tell you. I would extend them the same courtesy.
Yeh, I know it’s not romantic to discuss it, but I don’t think the alternative is particularly fantastic either.
Waiting is no guarantee but I don’t see how it can do any harm.
Karl S says
It might also depend on the type of person you are. I’ve never thought badly of women who like to have sex early, whereas apparently other men do. The partners who made me wait more than a couple of months to have sex never lasted, because in the end they weren’t that attracted to me.
I could*potentially* end up being one of Evan’s exceptions, because the girl I’m currently seeing slept with me on day one. We both knew we wanted something serious from it though, and called it a relationship right from the start. She’s even moved in with me a month to that day. I’m aware that I’m probably caught up the chemical high of being “in love” and that I’m only in my mid-twenties, which makes me naive. However, my partner and I have also been with enough people to realize that this thing is different to any that came before. Whatever happens, I’m just diving right in, and so far it’s amazing.
Gina says
awesome!
Nuri Eliza says
Always great when you made a connection, discussed what you eat out of the situation ahead of time. To me the timing of sex is secondary.
Karmic Equation says
@Ruby 14
I’ve frequently and freely acknowledged that I love sexual liberation for myself…particularly as I can have sex without commitment. But I know that isn’t the case with most women.
@Julia
“Pump and dump” and “Hit and run” are well known terms, like blowjob. If you decide to not date men that use that term, you’re gonna have to start dating women.
JustMe says
If a guy asked me if I were sleeping with other people, I probably wouldn’t answer – Not because I am sleeping with other people (I’m mormon and we do believe in waiting) but because I’m not really sure it is his business.
Ruby says
Karmic #18
“I’ve frequently and freely acknowledged that I love sexual liberation for myself…particularly as I can have sex without commitment. But I know that isn’t the case with most women.”
But prior to the advent of greater sexual freedom, you would have been judged harshly for it, and wouldn’t have been able to acknowledge as it freely or openly, (if at all) as you can today.
I never heard the phrase “pump and dump” until I started reading this blog! No, I don’t think my male friends use that term. Blow job, yes.
Jennifer says
‘pump and dump’ is a very common term in the ‘mansophere’ but I’ve never heard it used in real life. It is nowhere near as common as blow job.
By the way ladies, today is Steak and Blowjob day… Enjoy! ( unless you are making him wait :-))
Rose says
John
Rose @6
“Only time would tell on that one. And boy would I feel relieved and grateful that I didn’t share my body with him as I don’t want to be the woman who fills a void for any man
“But Rose you are missing my point. He wouldn’t tell you that he is getting his action elsewhere. You are thinking that because you are waiting and not sharing your body, he is doing the same thing. And that could be 100% wrong. So yes, only time will tell. Most guys (and I sure Evan too in his prime) will get action from another girl if she makes him wait too long. I know there are times when the guy wont mind waiting AND wont date others during that 6 weeks. But that is the exception to the rule.
Its all nice and romantic and so Lifetime Channel special to think the guy is waitng patiently for you. But the dating reality is that unless the guy thinks you are The One (which happens very rarely), he is getting off with someone else if you make him wait to long if he has options. But you keep thinking that is so untrue if it makes you feel better.”
I wouldn’t be thinking that at all. I would be taking my time getting to know someone.
I have no interest in promiscuous men.
I feel repelled by men who go to strip clubs lap dancing clubs etc. Or want casual sex. If others want that and enjoy it that is up to them. I do not compartmentalize sex and love. I’m not making any man do anything. Do what they like.
Not all men are promiscuous John, grant you a lot are and I wish them well if that is what they want. Sure they will have no problem finding it just not with me. My heart and body are more valuable to me to give away to any old Tom Dick or Harry who has not proved they will cherish and take care of them.
Lisa says
All I can say is good luck to you in finding that man Rose good luck.
Ella says
Beautiful, thoughtful comments, Rose.
The guy who ends up marrying you or being with you long term is a lucky guy.
Still-Looking says
I wanted to read the actual study but too cheap to shell out $37 to download it. I did find this comment regarding the study:
*******
Participants were then lumped into one of four groups based upon timing of first sex: Predating Sex (hooking-up before becoming a couple; 9.9%), Early Sex (sex on the first date or two; 35.5%), Delayed Sex (sex after a few weeks; 47.9%), and No Sex (couples who were still abstaining; 6.6%). Results revealed that people who waited longer to have sex scored the highest on all measures of relationship quality. Based upon these findings, the authors concluded that dating couples who have sex therefore have “poorer” outcomes than couples who abstain and that timing of sex represents an important “turning point” in the relationship.
But is this really the case?
What every single media failed to report was that the average levels of satisfaction, communication, and commitment were high for both men and women no matter when they started having sex. For instance, looking at relationship satisfaction, which was rated on a scale ranging from 0 to 12 in this study, the midpoint for this scale was 6, which means that anything above that represents satisfaction and anything below that represents dissatisfaction. For women, those who had sex in the first month had a satisfaction score of 7.9, while those who waited six or more months had a score of 8.5. For men, the numbers were 8.2 and 8.5, respectively. Thus, average levels of satisfaction were high for all groups.
****************
I have a very strong preference for women who are very sexually uninhibited. I don’t have a double-standard and have never considered a woman a poor match for me because we had sex on a first, second, or third date. Some readers might be wondering, “but doesn’t it bother you that if she sleeps with you on a first date that she is sleeping with other men on a first date?” The thought never crosses my mind just as I would assume she isn’t wondering how many women I’ve slept with on a first date.
Whether I have sex with a woman on a first date or a fifth date isn’t that important to me. As long as we are having a great time together I will continue to see her BUT if I feel as though she is a prude/sexually inhibited the relationship quickly becomes a platonic friendship. As EMK has mentioned, no “sex” doesn’t mean no fooling around.
Nuri Eliza says
I wondered about this study. All my serious relationships started out with sex early since I consider sexual compatible right up there with having similar values and goals. It has never been an issue. I’ve never gotten attached to anyone I’ve slept with out of lust. I value sexually open men who don’t slot shame women after they themselves also slept with me/someone on the 2nd other 3rd date. It weeds out the idiots fairly quickly.
Julia says
@Karmic I date plenty of men (though currently have a boyfriend) and have even more male friends. They tend to be of the more educated, urban east coast variety though, I’ve never heard them say anything of that nature. The kind of male I seek to spend time with just doesn’t think that little of women.
So I’m pretty sure I can continue to be straight and avoid douches but thanks for the advice to turn to women.
And for the record you can sleep with men relatively early on and have them respect you, sex doesn’t need to be a game where a man always wins and a woman always loses. Its better to wait a bit to have sex if you want to develop actual feelings for each other though.
Lori says
I like your response. Sadly in the dating world it does seem as if there has to be a winner and a loser—-just like in nature, there is the hunter and there is prey. If the prey gets away, the hunter feels like a loser. In most cases the man is the hunter wanting sex immediately and if he doesn’t get it well….you know.
The most important thing is mutual respect and understanding and being honest from the beginning. If BOTH parties abide by this code of conduct then perhaps a true relationship can be forged whether it’s a longterm romance or a great friendship.
Tanya says
Love your response, it helped to restore my faith in mankind.
Andrew says
Does your boyfriend know you spend time with other men on the side? Open relationship? ?
Rose says
I feel deeply sad hearing about others trying to fill a void by having casual sex.The void will not ever be filled that way, just a temporary addictive fix. Lost souls wondering around.
Evan Marc Katz says
I feel deeply sad for judgmental people who think that casual sex is the mark of a “lost soul”.
Get a grip and stop imposing your biblical morality on others who see sex a source of pleasure, not a source of shame.
TayMarie says
I concur.
Go preach where it belongs, in church.
Dina Strange says
Disagree with both of you. She wasn’t preaching, but simply stating an obvious thing. We have obese people who fill their emotional voids with food, and we have sex addicts who feel their emotional voids with casual sex….both cases are displays of gluttony, and not good.
miss mary says
LOL! Rose can feel sad, I’ve enjoyed my one night stands immensely – that one gorgeous 23yr old musician guy in Berlin, what a night! Sex addiction is real and awful, but not everyone who has casual sex is a sex addict. Some people just love pleasure – amirite ladies?!
Also addiction is not gluttony, or a moral choice. It is a serious illness that can be treated and should be approached with compassion, not judgement.
Kitty says
You are out of line, Evan. A woman who values her body and doesn’t want to share it with any random man who won’t give her the love and commitment and security she wants isn’t necessarily based in “biblical morality”. It’s not necessarily a “moral judgment” at all. the term “lost souls” may not have been literal.
starthrower68 says
I am just not progressive enough to date. I’d better get some more cats.
Greg says
Well, Evan, I respect your viewpoint on your blog the overwhelming majority of the time, but casual sex just isn’t a healthy thing for certain people. And some do try to fill an emotional void with it; they don’t succeed at that due to deeper emotional needs being unmet, and the sexual intensity just clouds what they really feel — or what they think their partner feels. I doubt Rose is speaking out of some sense of biblical morality, just what she may see in terms of others’ successful or unsuccessful sexual behavior. Could you work with a woman like Rose who “suffers” from “biblical morality?” What would you offer to coach her to a successful relationship? “Get a grip” implies she’s narrow-minded or even ignorant.
miss mary says
Casual sex is not sex addiction. It’s offensive and hurtful to say that people who enjoy casual sex are lost souls. And a sex addict isn’t a lost soul wandering around – a sex addict is a real person, with a serious problem that is being expressed in unhealthy sexual behaviour.
So, Rose is ignorant – but that’s ok. Whether she re-considers her position or not will determine if she is also narrow minded.
Julia Mcloughlin says
I agree with this, I actually liked Roses response. She is right. People do try to fill emotional voids with casual sex and it’s sad, this coming from a woman who has had one night stands…more than one… And they were awful, hideous experiences that just made me feel like a prostitute and an awful person. Never again!
I only had one night stands when divorcing my husband, a lot of people imo have one night stands when they feel sad and / or low.
Karl S says
Rose, you can’t just divide people into those who hold out for love and those who sleep around. I myself have always wanted to find love (I think everybody does), but I was also open to enjoying myself with people on a number of different levels if love wasn’t there to be found. It all depends on who you meet and how you click. I’ve had monogamous relationships, friends-with-benefits, one night stands and was even happy to give polyamory a go (I’m really not jealous or possessive). All these things can be fulfilling for the people involved so long as you’re honest, and that you let people know where they stand at any given moment before taking action.
Admittedly, a lot guys aren’t honest. I guess all you can do there is take a risk and allow yourself to be hurt if it goes bad. That’s life.
Patty says
Well said. I would ad that if you’re going to risk getting hurt, just be as sure as possible that the sex is good.
Sabrina says
For women, it’s simple. Jumping into bed before there’s ‘sexusivity shows a man that he doesn’t need to make an effort with you for anything else now that he’s got the ‘prize.’ Why set yourself up for failure?
Sparkling Emerald says
John 5
I understand why you have this little rule of yours. But it is giving you a false sense of security. You somehow feel that it will mean more or the guy will take you more seriously because he agreed to wait. But that is so not true. If a guy is going to pump and dump you, he will do it whether its the 3rd date or 10th date. Somehow you believe that by making him wait, you are controlling the situation when in reality, you dont.
I think maybe you get too close if you sleep with a guy too soon and if thats true then by all means wait 6 weeks. But if you think that making him wait is indiciative of his interest level, think again. If the guy has options, he will be getting his action elsewhere until you feel it is safe to get down and dirty. He may like you enough to wait, but dont be oblivious to the fact there is a good chance some other lady is filling the void you aren’t providing. And if you think “oh he isnt screwing around with other girls”, you may be right but you may be wrong as well. Of course if he doesnt have any other options then maybe you will be his one and only.
—————————-
NOTHING in life is guaranteed, so let’s get that out of the way shall we? All we can do in the game of life is tilt the odds in our favor. Most of the “hump & dumpers” aren’t going to wait around for 10 dates. Even if they do, there’s usually some little tell that they are a player. Waiting a while lessens the chance that a woman will be blinded by that oxytocin buzz, and bond herself to a jackass.
You can have sex on a first date and hope it turns into a relationship. Good luck with that, yes it happens, but those aren’t odds I want to play.
You can wait a little longer, but without some talk of exclusivity, Perhaps better odds, but those are sill not odds I want to play.
You wait until there has been a declaration of exclusivity. Or an “I love you” No guarantee, but I’ll take that chance.
You can wait until you are engaged. Better odds, but I doubt I could hold off that long.
You can wait until marriage. Still no guarantee. Adultery is a fact of life. I really won’t even fathom a guess at how waiting until marriage affects the odds, since I coluldn’t hold out for a ring. I’m a heathen, I’m not even sure if I WANT to marry again, but I’m pretty sure I want to be in a relationship again AND — If I loved someone enough to want to marry them I wouldn’t be able to wait that long, and I certainly wouldn’t marry someone in a few weeks or a few months just to have marital sex vs having pre-marital sex.
Too go down that road of “Oh well no amount of waiting guarantees anything” is silly. There is NOTHING wrong with exercising a little self control in the beginning. It will weed out a lot of players, maybe not ALL of the players, but a good chunk of them. Or the WOMAN might discover that she’s not so compatible with the guy after all, regardless of his intentions, and she saved herself from getting in a relationship with someone she’s not compatible with.
I think mostly the sexual revolution has screwed things up relationship wise (no pun intended) but one thing I do like about it, casual sex has become so mainstream that men have no qualms about stating up front that NSA sex is all they want. There is no need to lie about it. And there are plenty of women who will accomodate them either because
1. They only want NSA sex themselves or
2. They wonder “Gee I wonder what he means when he says he’s not ready for a relationship”? They think they can get a guy to bond to them by having sex with him, even tho he clearly stated that he only wanted to keep things casual.
I would much rather get dumped because I didn’t hump, then to get dumped & humped. I would rather have been lied to about the commitment level, and have sex, then get dumped, then to willingly hop in the sack with an upfront player. Of course my NUMBER ONE CHOICE is to be in a real relationship. No guarantees of course, but it’s not so far outside the realm of possibility that I’m foolish to want it, or to hold out until I think I have it.
Rose says
Evan
I understand why you would think and draw the conclusion that my feelings of sadness were to do with my biblical morality. Here is the flaw in those thoughts and conclusions though. They are your projections that have nothing whatsoever to do with me. As my feelings have nothing to do with any biblical morality.
I believe the bible and it’s biblical morality as like any other religious book of stories is man made invented by man in order to control the masses.I am not religious and have not been brought up with a religious background my family are atheists and follow no religion .MY individual morals do not come from any made up stories written by man. They come from a connection deep within myself my soul. If you do not believe we have souls and do not feel sad about people describing themselves as empty wanting casual sex to try and fill that void up with casual sex trying to fill that void up from a another person rather than being whole themselves first and attracting another whole person rather than someone else who also feels empty trying to do the same, than that is you belief. We just have different beliefs.
So it is a logically flawed argument to state “Get a grip and stop imposing your biblical morality on others who see sex a source of pleasure, not a source of shame.”
As I have no biblical morality and do not seek to impose anything and have clearly stated previously if others want to do that, it is up to them to make them to do what feels right for them, if that is what they want to do and it feels right do it. Doesn’t fee; good or right for me though.
In order for the following statement to be true for me to be imposing my biblical morality on others. Fist my morals would have to come from the bible, which they don’t and second I would have to have said don’t have casual sex which I haven’t. I have said it isn’t right for me and if others want to do that, do what they like.
I love sex as an expression of mutual shared lovemaking and it is one the most joyous experiences to have.If others love causal sex and it feels right for them that’s up to them.
Anyone can get physically pleasurable casual sex. If people are happy with that why are they here Evan? Is having casual physically pleasurable sex getting people what they really want? Or is what they really want more than that, a deeply connected intimate soul based shared physical and emotional loving experience, where to people have sex as an expression of their shared love for each other?
I know which one I want. What others want is for them alone to decide.
Colleen says
Bravo Rose. I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thank you.
Mark says
I only know from my own experience.
When I’ve waited it’s always been worth it.
One time I waited 6 months, of course that’s too long.
We lived far away from each other.
JB says
Evan’s right there’s plenty of fully consenting adults that have no problem having sex before the word “girlfriend” is ever mentioned or discussed. The same with goofball Patti Stanger’s “no sex before monogamy” battle cry for “people who want to get married”. Casual sex has and always will be around and most people have sex before talk of any kind of commitment happens. That doesn’t mean they don’t have “morals and values” they just might not have the same ones as you and more often than not men will think a lot differently on the subject than you ladies I can assure you.
Karen K says
Yea, I totally agree. All Patti Stanger did was make the guy lie from the beginning – knowing that the girl wants to hear that, and then she will have sex with you. Another thing is the men say that they want to wait, using reverse psychology, and we fall for that too. We just don’t know when they are lying or really serious, so we take our chances. But if a girl is waiting because she is using it against the man, then that straight up sucks. Your Vgna is not a carrot to be dangled on a stick. If you don’t want to rip his clothes off after the 3rd date, then you need to move on and find someone that you are attracted to. If by the 3rd date, you don’t want to, or are holding out, then you are in it for his money.
Karmic Equation says
Now that I’ve thought about it, “Pump and dump” is often written in blogs, not said out loud. “Hit and run” I’ve heard men say out loud. I can understand why many are not familiar with the former if they don’t read too many blogs written by men.
@Ruby 20
I agree with you. I *personally* take advantage of the sexual revolution. Because I don’t need commitment to have sex.
As long as women tie sex to commitment then the sexual revolution didn’t free them as they think.
—————
I know most people judge “sex without commitment” to mean sleeping around. WRONG. 4 lovers in 18 years does not equal sleeping around. I would bet money that the same women who judged me for having “slept around” have actually slept around “with commitment” with more men than I have without commitment.
So having sex without commitment does not mean one is promiscuous. It means, and I’m being deliberately inflammatory here to prove a point…that I don’t “extort” sexclusivity from a man before having sex with him. I don’t ask him for anything other than to enjoy my company and me to enjoy his. He believes, truthfully, that I’m with him solely because I find him attractive and not because I expect him to “give me” anything in return other than his company.
And a funny thing happens, those men that I have “sex without commitment” with commit to me anyway, happily, wholeheartedly. One married me, two would have married me had I said yes. One moved out of town, so not much I could do about that. And to be clear, I’m plain vanilla in bed, nothing freaky.
Frankly, men can get sex anywhere, so why not with YOU? But a man can’t get a relationship WITH YOU with anyone else. I make having a relationship with me better than anything a man has ever experienced before me and will measure future relationships against…I don’t judge men. I accept them. That acceptance of who they are goes a lot farther in getting a man to develop “feelings” for you than putting sex on hold ever will.
Cat5 says
Evan @ 26
Why is it judgmental to hold a different belief system (religious-based or secular-based) where casual sex is seen as an unhealthy behavior? Particularly when the belief is expressed in a respectful manner. I saw nothing shaming in Rose’s post @ 25. Just sadness.
And isn’t calling someone judgmental for expressing a viewpoint different than yours…being…well…judgmental? And it seemed like you were attempting to shame Rose for her belief system, which is not in sync with yours.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Cat5 – For Rose to be “sad” about other people having casual sex implies judgment. Why would you be sad for someone who is happy? I had plenty of casual sex, by my own volition, until I got married. Should Rose feel “sad” for me? Absolutely not. And it’s patronizing to suggest that because SHE doesn’t want casual sex that the rest of us who participate in various forms of sexual relationships outside of commitment should be pitied.
To your final point: intolerance of intolerance is not intolerant. Rose was judging casual sex. I was judging her for being judgmental.
Rose says
What I actually wrote Evan was, “I feel deeply sad hearing about others trying to fill a void by having casual sex.” I felt sad to hear of their emptiness trying to fill that void.
Not that I felt pity for everyone who had casual sex. That was your interpretation.
I feel a sadness in my heart for people trying to the fill that emptiness that way. Just as I feel a sadness in my heart for drug addicts or alcoholics who do this. I am sure drug addicts and alcoholics also feel happy in the moment while drinking or on the drug.
That makes me feel deeply sad, my heart actually hurts thinking about people feeling empty like that having a void.
I feel what I feel, it is what it is.
Evan Marc Katz says
Rose, who said that people were “empty” or “trying to fill a void”? YOU did.
Not the people who were having casual sex.
So you came to the conclusion that anyone who is having casual sex must feel empty. And you feel sad for their emptiness. Which you created for them. Got it.
Julia Mcloughlin says
John said it earlier on in the blog. The conversation started up between John and Rose initially.
From my own personal experiences of one night stands…. Ihave had more than one….. I have found them to be horrible, awful experiences. They have left me feeling angry, confused, used, upset, shamed and like a bad person. That’s just how they affected Me. Everyone is different. I am allowed to say how casual sex affected me. For that reason, I agree with Rose, that having a deep connection with someone is important and now for me never again will l have another one night stand. It’s just not worth it for me. Left me my soul sad, so I get Rose.
Nuri Eliza says
I’ve had sex in committed relationships that left me feeling empty and sad and casual sex were I felt fabulous, sexy, strong,cooking care of MY needs. Kudos to you Evan for calling BS by what it is.
Rose says
Evan
Rose, who said that people were “empty” or “trying to fill a void”? YOU did.
John did Evan. The conversation on casual sex and filling a void started between him and myself.
Chris says
I agree!! It’s just like any other self-indulgence… We have to be ready to accept the consequences. If we constantly give in to our urges for sweet treats, desserts, and fattening appetizers, we can’t be too surprised when we put on some extra pounds. Likewise, if we give in to our sexual urges too soon, we have to accept that while we may have had a great time, we probably shouldn’t expect it to become anything long-term or meaningful. We’re human. We want it all. And ideally we’ll find that partner who will be that everything to us. But odds are we’re going to have to a little patience and restraint and put forth a bit more effort to find them. That being said, if you’re going to indulge, enjoy every minute and have no regrets!!
Morris says
I don’t know a single good man who wouldn’t wait to have sex for the right woman. I’ve know plenty of players that wouldn’t go through the trouble just to get laid. Simply as that.
elli says
Some of you probably won ´t believe me, or will laugh, but there are still places in the world where guys are dating for a year or two without sex. And both sides seem to be comfortable with it. Just a comment, I don ´t mean to imply anything.
Rose says
John.
Actually in reflection I can see your point in that the time length is not the issue and agree with that part.
I can see it is not so much a matter of time but a matter of the depth of caring and connection. . It’s the caring that is the issue. And just because you wait a month, two months whatever time length you want to put on it it doesn’t mean that he has developed those feelings. They however do take time to develop. And it takes longer than a month to develop real deep mutual caring connected feelings to see if you are compatible for a relationship. Time and not having casual sex will not guarantee that those mutual feelings will develop. However waiting first for the woman to see if those feelings develop and are mutual will stop you from becoming hormonally bonded and attached to a man who doesn’t have those feeling’s and care about you in a deep connected way.
Julia says
@Rose please stop judging the rest of us. You do you, we’ll do us, deal?
@Karmic 35
You know who write blogs about “pumping and dumping” women? douches. So I would say its pretty easy for those of us with self respect to avoid sleeping with these kinds of men. Waiting helps but also refraining from jumping in bed with a guy who just seems smarmy helps too. And you’ve admitted that you haven’t slept with that many guys, so it seems like you’ve also avoided these types.
As for hit and run, it doesn’t sound as offensive to me. There is something so pornographic about the term “pump and dump” that makes me legs close up real quick.
Karmic Equation says
This blog post is quite timely to this discussion:
Men Don’t Fall in Love the Same Way Women Do
Lia says
@ John # 5
Did you actually read Jenna’s (#2) post? She never said that sex would mean more to the guy if she waited she said (and you even quoted her) that she finds it “more romantic to wait a little for sex.” She is not waiting because she (to quote you) “somehow feel that it will mean more to the guy”. She clearly states that the benifit is that it helps a woman not to get “prematurely attached to the wrong guy”.
Not at any point in her post did she write that she would make a man wait so she would feel more secure. Nor did she make any reference to him waiting as being “indicative of his interest level”.
You wrote, “Somehow you believe that by making him wait, you are controlling the situation.” Did you just pull that malarky out of you behind? Where did she write anything like that?
@ Jenna # 2
I liked your post and I agree that women tend to get prematurely attached if they have sex too soon and don’t wait to find out if they actually like the guy and are not just attracted to him. People reveal themselves if you give them some time… some in very little time. 🙂
@ Sparkling Emerald
“Waiting a while lessens the chance that a woman will be blinded by that oxytocin buzz, and bond herself to a jackass.” LOL… LOL… Been there, done that.
All in all a great post!
@ Karmic Equation
I have to say it yet again… Great post.
I am one of those women who does bond with a man when I have sex. I have to say that reading the comments you have written through out Evan’s blog, have given me a different way of looking at sex and relationships. I like your attitude and have shared your thoughts with my sisters. I have to admit that there is just a bit of envy in me for the way you can be so free and comfortable.
“I know that most people judge “sex without commitment” to mean sleeping around.” I actually never thought that of you. And I loved the last paragraph.
Kathleen says
Evan
Good advice as usual and I love the term sexclusivity. My head is definitely clearer when I haven’t overdosed on male induced oxytocin!! LOL
Guess Im the exception though cause i slept with a guy on the first night, and that marriage/relationship lasted 20 years.
Karl S says
Something people need to remember when arguing about sex is that in reality, its purpose is to facilitate the continuation of the human species. That’s all. It’s foolish then to proclaim that the act of sex should only be defined as an expression of deep, committed love. After all, even sex with someone you’re married to can range from “making love” to “f***’ing”, depending on what head space you’re both in. In those instances, it’s much like casual sex, except it’s with the one person. AND, because each event is separate, the fact that you’re just “f***’ing” one day does not devalue or undermine the “making-love” you do the next day.
I’ve even seen successful couples who can share deeply loving sex within the relationship, yet have play partners outside of it as well. Everything is open and honest, and they make it work.
The real point I’m making with all this is that while it can be smart to withhold sex for a time in order to identify which partners will commit, the sex you have with that partner is not always going to be some transcendent, soulful experience. Sometimes it just feels nice, and other folks like to embrace that quality in a more relaxed manner with a variety of people.
XO says
Sex actually serves many purposes. Procreation is just one. Non-human primates use it to reduce stress and promote group bonds. Humans use it in a variety of ways.. for money, to exalt power (so-called “alpha” males – the concept of which is debatable in humans, sorry), to keep peace, to fulfill emotional needs… there are many emotional, psychological, political, and economic aspects surrounding sex – in addition to biological. And, when you think about the number of times you have had sex, the number of partners you have had, and the number of children you have had, I would suspect that those numbers get smaller: #encounters>#partners>#children. Did you want to have children with every encounter? Probably not. If that were its only purpose, you would only have sex to have children.
In my experience, it is not about the commitment. It takes me awhile to figure out if he is someone who is worthy of forming a bond with – will he screw me over, is he healthy mentally and physically, does he have integrity, is he happy, does he care about me and my child, etc.? The commitment is secondary, but usually evolves naturally out of that anyway.
Sparkling Emerald says
Karl S said . . .
“Something people need to remember when arguing about sex is that in reality, its purpose is to facilitate the continuation of the human species. That’s all. It’s foolish then to proclaim that the act of sex should only be defined as an expression of deep, committed love.”
And because sex is for reproduction, most women are hard wired to want a deep committed love from a man, before they potentially carry his seed. That’s not “foolishness” Karl, it’s just the way most of us are.
Can you not post anything, without putting women down, for being the way nature made us ?
Henriette says
We all have to be truly aware of and honest about what we can handle, ourselves, and act accordingly. I’m not someone who’s good at dealing with the emotional aftermath of casual sex so I don’t partake but I certainly don’t begrudge or judge those who can & do. I just don’t like hearing folks whine about the consequences of their actions or inaction.
Leesa says
i am 41. upon reflection of my life, i do think that when i’ve slept with a guy within the first few weeks of knowing him, i was pretty emotionally desperate and needy for love which i couldn’t give myself. after having my heart broken, and crying and suffering for a rediculous amount of time, i’ve now come to a place where i don’t feel emotionally needy anymore. and now i feel like i’m in a much better position to evaluate a potential guy (even one i’m strongly attracted to) for much longer than i would have been in the past. the reason for this is because i’m now all too aware that if you jump into bed with a guy and get emotionally bonded to him before you know him … then i am falling for a guy who i don’t even know. he could be really a shitty person and i wouldn’t see him clearly because of my emotional bonding. this is exactly what happened to me in my last relationship and i swear, after all the suffering, i will never do that to myself again.
Nuri Eliza says
Also in my 40s and great at reading people. With all my dating experience, I know pretty quickly whether he is a keeper or full of it. So why wait if we are about the same thing?
Sparkling Emerald says
Leesa 52
I totally agree. Waiting a bit, gives one a chance to see if this person is worth getting crazy-glued too emotionally. I do think it gets a bit easier as we mature. I don’t know if it’s the wisdom that comes with age, or declining hormones.
Ellejem says
@ Karl S #49
I’m a woman, and I agree 100% with what you said.
@ Sparkling Emerald #50
I honestly don’t think Karl S was trying to put women down. I believe the biological urge to reproduce is separate from and indifferent to the parties’ satisfaction…
Rose says
Leesa. I feel pleased to hear, “I’m now all too aware.” And would dearly like to do my best to help prevent our young girls going through this needless suffering that most young girls and women go through because they are not aware and not taught this.
I want to now teach this to our little girls as part of sex education to help them choose better fully informed choices for themselves as without all of the information they are not able to make a fully informed choice.
Dan says
I’d say the second or third date.
I’ve had one woman test me for sexual compatibility on our the third date. I could tell she was desperate to get married. The sex was not that good, and she dumped me, which didn’t bother me at all. She still stayed in touch as “friends” whereupon I found out that she did third-date-sex with a bunch of other guys she was dating. She finally settled on one bloke who was kind of ‘meh’ in my opinion.
I had a relationship with a Catholic school teacher that also was into second date sex once she made up her mind that the guy had long term potential. The sex was super awesome, but eventually, there were incompatibilities. Then I found out that second date sex was pretty much her modus operandi.
In my experience, early sex is fine and good if both are really into each other and your gut instincts say so too.
Karl S says
Sparkling Emerald, would it have helped if I’d put extra emphasis on the word *only* when talking about how sex shouldn’t be defined? In my last post I talked about the variance you get, which *included but was not restricted to* sex as an expression of love. Yes, a lot of women are hardwired to want deep committed love with their sex, but a lot of people (both men a women) are also hardwired with high libidos, or are hardwired with low inhibitions, or are hardwired without the inclination towards children. For them, sex might be more of a release, or a way of getting to know you, or an outlet for their darker kinky side. I’m saying it’s foolish to insist sex is *one* thing just because you might feel that way about it. That’s when people get super judgmental.
Alex says
Nothing wrong with waiting it out if that’s what you are comfortable with. Every relationship is unique; use your best judgement.
tatiayna says
The only post in this entire thread, that makes sense!
Sparkling Emerald says
Ellejem 54
Karl S (Whom I suspect is a re-incarnation of Karl R) Said it is “foolishness” to define sex as deeply committed love.
I don’t think completely divorcing sex from love is very smart. ESPECIALLY since it could lead to the creation of a brand new helpless little life. We are not animals mating in the woods. We are not spawning fish, who will swim upstream and die after the act. We are human beings with complex emotions.
I don’t think sex and emotions are separate. Maybe because I am woman. Why does a woman’s brain produce oxytocin and cause her to bond with the male with whom she has just shared her body ? That is not necessary for reproduction, yet our female brains produce bonding chemicals during sex, so why are we supposed to ignore our emotions that are connected with sex ? Why are we called fools for doing so ? I think it IS smart to recognize that men don’t bond through sex, but it is NOT smart to think women don’t bond through sex. I know some women on this blog comment they don’t, but MOST women do.
Men give biological reason such as “spreading their seed” to explain their non-bonding behavior. Honestly, I don’t understand the biological advantage to men “spreading their seed” and abandoning the mothers of their seed bearers. I honestly don’t understand why women’s oxytocin levels RISE after sex, and mens oxytocin level LOWER after sex. I don’t see the biological advantage for this disconnect.
I DO see the biological advantage if BOTH partners are bonded to each other BEFORE they have sex, so that any offspring that results, will be cared for by two loving adults. But for some reason biology has not given men the paternal instinct as strongly as it has given women the maternal instinct. (Obviously men eventually come around and want children, because I can’t believe that ALL people in the world are the by products of “shot-gun weddings” )
There is a book called “The Naked Ape” that explains why humans have the emotions they do surrounding sex better than I can explain it. Maybe Karl S could read this book by a male author, and change his thinking a bit about womens “foolish” emotions.
Karl R says
Sparkling Emerald said:
“Karl S (Whom I suspect is a re-incarnation of Karl R)”
He can’t be a reincarnation. I’m still alive.
I don’t particularly mind if someone conflates us. When I read Karl S’s posts, I agree with him almost all of the time. He supports his points rationally, even though he’s a bit less focused on facts and statistics than I am. He also seems like he’s a bit nicer than I am. (More succinct too.)
On the other hand, please don’t confuse me with Karl T. He comes across as being really obnoxious and abrasive.
Androgynous says
Sparkling Emerald, I think it is a known fact that men can and do detach themselves emotionally. When people are engaged in the act, they are very vulnerable (physically) so a level of trust is required from each other. They have to trust that the other party is not going to pull out a knife or something like that while they are flat on their backs and naked to boot. Until a man truly knows a woman, loves and trust her implicitly (know a man can’t love if he can’t trust) he is bound to have a level of detachment despite having had sex. Due to his size and strength advantage, he can afford to go into sex without that total trust. For women, it is more “dangerous” for her so she needs to have a greater level of faith in her man in order to do the deed – oftentimes that level of trust and intimacy bleeds into her emotions and gets interpreted as “love”.
JB says
I don’t know anything about anything but I’ve learned one thing about women. They hate the word “casual” unless we’re talking about “dress code”…..LOL
Oh and for all above me who think that a guy who only wants something “casual” from you or nothing long term won’t wait 6-8 weeks(which may be 8-10 dates) before having sex even though he knows you probably aren’t going to be around much longer than a few weeks after that. You’re wrong. At 50, I have no problem enjoying the “dating process” and waiting a bit even if it’s with a woman I have no long term interest in because I know I have to take what I can get or I’ll be celibate. Most likely I’ll be emailing other women while that is going on trying to trade up of course just like they’re still getting emails every day from other guys. I usually only date one woman at a time but that doesn’t mean they’re my “girlfriend” so in theory I am monogamous during that short period. It is what it is. It’s a little different up here in the “over 45” category.
Sparkling Emerald says
Androgynous-
I agree with what you said, and in fact, I think it just re-inforces the idea that women should wait. (until the relationship is at the commitment level she desires)
I agree, a level of trust is greatly needed before committing an act that could potentially create a life and one that puts you in immediate physical danger if the person you are getting naked with turns out to be “Mr Goodbar”
Which is why it is WISE, and not FOOLISH for a woman to wait. She is in the most vulnerable position in 3 main ways.
1.) She is the one who could end up pregnant and abandoned. (Birth control has pretty much lessened that possibility, but biologically our brains still interpret sex as potential baby making)
2.) Pregnancy concerns aside, hopping into bed with a stranger puts HER at risk for physical assault. Remember getting the Stranger Danger lectures in kindergarten ? It is not any safer getting in a car and going to a remote location with a stranger, or a near stranger, just because sex is involved.
3.) Emotional Bonding through Ocytocin – OK, anyone who has been reading this blog for more than a day, knows about this.
So yes, I GET that men can treat sex like a sport, and hump and dump with no emotional fall out, no worries about an unwanted child, and not much to worry about as far as physical assault goes, because men are stronger and can defend themselves easier. (These things are pretty much on a biological level, in reality, with DNA testing a man can now be id’d as the baby daddy and end up paying child support, and if the stranger he brings home pulls out a gun, his physical strength is not such an advantage, but who thinks about THAT stuff when they’re raring to go ?????)
What I DON’T get, is all the put downs toward women who don’t just hop into bed at the drop of a hat. Women are called fools, manipulative, likened to hookers, called bitches etc, because they want to protect their bodies, hearts and future offspring by “waiting”. And “waiting” has now been defined in modern times as “waiting” for the first date, vs having sex with someone you met 5 minutes ago.
I hope the young girls of today get this message loud and clear. There is NOTHING wrong with waiting until the relationship is where you want it to be emotionally. It is WISE and NOT foolish.
Some men will try to tell you something different. They’ll try to convince you that there is something WRONG with you, if you aren’t willing to hop in the sack the instant they get a boner. First they will “prude shame” you. Then if you give in they will basically “slut shame” you. The exception ? The man who wants YOU, not just your lady parts, the man who feels PROTECTIVE toward you, and won’t take advantage of your vulnerability. The man who will step up and give you some sort of emotional bond before pressuring you to pleasure him. That is a man worth waiting for.
Sparkling Emerald says
JB 61 said
“I have no problem enjoying the “dating process” and waiting a bit even if it’s with a woman I have no long term interest in because I know I have to take what I can get or I’ll be celibate. ”
—————
If the woman asks, do you honestly tell her that you have no long term interest ? Do you tell her up front before she asks ? Does your dating profile say that you are looking for a relationship, looking to date but nothing casual, or do you just not say.
Inquiring minds want to know . . .
Also, your comment about women only like “casual” in regards to “dress code” made me LOL.
Sparkling Emerald says
Karl S 57
Yes, I noticed the word ONLY, but your example of married people can “f***” vs making love, I slightly disagree with. Married women may just feel more free after marriage to get down and dirty in the bedroom, let out their kinky side, go for a no-frills quickie, BUT, even if that particular act of sex is more f***-like than love making, it is still in the overall context of a loving committed relationship. Even couples who get dressed up, go out to a bar, pretend to be strangers randomly hooking up, you could say they are just having a non-committed f***, but in reality, they are a loving committed couple having a bit of fun with role playing.
I know other people have different sexual needs, or will settle for love-less sex on their journey for the real thing, and I don’t pass judgement on them. I thinking using words like “foolish” towards women who rather remain celibate until they find a real relationship is being judgemental.
Shmilla says
I love Evan’s work. He helped me find the absolute love of my life, who is at this moment making me breakfast while I am still in bed. We’ve been dating 5 months and exclusive 4 of those months. We haven’t had sex. He was used to casual relationships and I was used to my own Biblical morality, so when we first started dating I said I wanted to wait until I was married. He knew from the beginning and I knew things about him from the beginning and we each kept coming back.
Yes, sex is a huge part of a relationship, but only a part. I think if you meet the right person, respect each other, respect yourself, you can’t lose no matter what. I could have had sex with him in the first hour we met, but I would have had to wait longer to learn about a lot of the amazing things about him that I know now. He told me that I make him feel safe and I love him unconditionally, that he can’t lose with me. He’s right; I am on his side. But we are still getting to know each other. Who knows what will happen?
When it comes to what other people do in or out of the bedroom, I guess I just tend to my own garden. I have an amazing friend who writes a blog about healthy sexuality and has had hundreds of sex partners, which works for her. She’s asked me to guest blog about celibacy, which works for me. There’s a spectrum and place for everyone on it.
And I have to go eat brunch now.
Misskyi says
Shmilla: there is a spectrum and a healthy place for everybody on it
Thanks for writing that. Most of what I’ve seen on this thread is people getting all offended and tearing eachother down for their very personal sexual choices.
Morris says
@JP #61 – and I know someone who lived to 90 and he use to drink, smoke and sit on the couch all day. But my advice to people who want to live long is to not drink, smoke and sit on the couch all day. The point was you can weed out players by waiting on having sex. There isn’t much a woman can do about a guy willing to wine and dine a woman for 8 weeks just to get some.
Andy says
I understand your idea, but the fact that a man (or a woman) wants to have sex early in the relationship doesn’t necesarily mean that he (or she) is a player.
I’ve mostly had long term relationships and I didn’t wait 8 weeks.
Rose says
Sparkling Emarald.
Love what you say.
Especially this
“I hope the young girls of today get this message loud and clear. There is NOTHING wrong with waiting until the relationship is where you want it to be emotionally. It is WISE and NOT foolish.”
As do I and intend to put an action in place to turn that hope into a reality.
Karl S says
I think there’s been a bit of confusion as to the implications of my statement in post #49. I was talking about how sex is defined, as in how narrow one’s mindset over what sex be is. There’s a difference between somebody who acknowledges the spectrum of sex for different people and then chooses to wait for deeply committed love, and a person who insists sex is only about deeply committed love and that anything else is abhorrent.
Jennifer says
My hope is that young girls feel free to conduct their sexual lives in the waythat works best for them, individually. And my hope is that older generations of women allow them to make those choices without judgment or pressure, and recognize that every woman that chooses to have ‘casual’ sex, whether once or dozens of times, is not a lost soul having a sad, meaningless existence.
Nuri Eliza says
I love your statement Jennifer. I have young adult daughters and I have raised them to do what feels right for them, period. It is not the end of the world if you don’t wait.
JB says
@Sparkling Emerald #63 – I don’t say anything unless they bring it up then I’ll honestly say how I feel about them. Occasionally after a few dates I’ll offer “I usually only date one woman at a time” which is true although occasionally there might be a little overlap but rarely. As far as what my profile says? It says at the end and I quote “Let’s take our time and get know each other, spend some time together, and see how it goes. If it turns into a relationship that’s great! If not it’s always great meeting new and interesting people. I’m looking for quality not quantity.”
So you can take it any way you want. I don’t say “If it turns into a relationship that’s great if not and we’ve already had sex too bad for you”…..LOL These are grown women over 40 I’m dealing with here. Most are intelligent enough to say what’s on their mind before anything physical happens if they care to.
@Morris #66 – 8 weeks isn’t that long and it’s not like I’m shaking hands good night on the 5th date or anything…lol If things aren’t “progressing” accordingly to both our comfort zones it would obviously end before then. Ask Evan…..I always have the option to not ask someone out again at anytime(ie:Disappearing) just like they have of not returning my call or accepting my invitation. It’s called “Dating”.
Rose says
Jennifer, wanted to reiterate. What I already wrote.
I feel annoyed when my words are not quoted accurately or out of context.
It changes the whole meaning.
These were my words.
“I feel deeply sad hearing about others trying to fill a void by having casual sex.” I felt sad to hear of their emptiness trying to fill that void.” In response th what John wrote.
“I feel deeply sad hearing about others trying to fill a void by having casual sex.The void will not ever be filled that way, just a temporary addictive fix. Lost souls wondering around.”
John.
“He may like you enough to wait, but dont be oblivious to the fact there is a good chance some other lady is filling the void you aren’t providing.”
At no time did I write “a lost soul having a sad, meaningless existence.”
Those are your words twisting my words and my meaning.
I don’t want to fill a void for any man who has a void to fill. And wouldn’t want to encourage any other female to be the one filling a void. Would respect their right to choose to do that if that is what they wanted and thought was right for them however. I respect everyones right to chose to chose when given a fully informed choice.
Just as I respect others right to choose hard drugs, whatever religion they want to follow, etc etc.
Have written more than once now.
“If that is what others want to do is up to them and to decide if it is right for them just not right for me or what I want.”
Feels best to leave it with that final comment now.
Rose says
Evan.
Feels interesting how someone comes to the conclusion from their perspective and their interpretation,taking one part of said whilst disregarding the rest, for instance. quoted below.
“If that is what others want to do is up to them and to decide if it is right for them just not right for me or what I want.”
That in their opinion I am intolerant.
As Intolerant refers to an active refusal to allow others to have or put into practice beliefs different from one’s own.
If you believe and think I am actively refusing to allow others to put into practice having casual sex. Then that is your belief and who am I to argue.
So feels best to agree to disagree with your belief on my intolerance.
starthrower68 says
@ Jennifer 69,
It’s a good thing I’m only the mother of one young girl because that isn’t what she’s going to be taught and I’m certainly not setting a merry divorcee example for her either.
Tina says
JB 61 said:
“…I usually only date one woman at a time but that doesn’t mean they’re my “girlfriend” so in theory I am monogamous during that short period….”
LOL, i’m sorry. So you hit women for short period and at the same time you send emails to theNext.
Valid Question says
I’m reading conflicting information here that I’d like to get cleared up.
The majority of blog posts are advising women to wait until you get “exclusive” before having sex. Yet, there have been statements stating that men won’t often commit until they have sex.
I’m not advocating having sex as soon as the hormones start raging, but sexual compatibility (as long we are compatible on the non negotiables)is an important factor for me to when it comes to deciding whether I will commit to an exclusive relationship with a man.
So what is it?
XO says
I think trying out someone “sexually” is a meaningless to decide if you want to commit to someone or not. If you have really good rapport and communication and are willing to work with each other (you know, committed), you can improve your sexual chemistry tremendously. Sometimes, you have to work on it a bit. For me, it takes probably five or six encounters before I am really in tune with the other person. If men will not commit before this, I would question their ability to understand what a relationship actually entails.
If you ask yourself, “why is it that so many men cannot figure out if they DON’T want someone to be their girlfriend before they sleep with them?” you will probably have your answer. If they say that they need to have sex with you “to test compatibility” BEFORE they stop sleeping with or dating other women, well they are probably going to be selfish partners, IMO, and will be quick to split.
Is it really that difficult to say, “Hey, I like you. A lot. I’d like to focus on you, and only you, and figure this out if this relationship has legs, without you worrying that I am going to be looking for something better and vice versa. Let’s approach this from a place where we both can feel safe and secure with each other. What do you think?” Is it? And is it really all that difficult to do? If it stops working, break up.
I’ll tell you what, when I am not anxious that my guy has one foot out the door (or is test driving me like a car) I am a much more authentic, loving person. I cannot give all of myself if it is not mutual. Instead, it is a half-assed relationship riddled with uncertainty. A set up for failure from the get go. That’s just me, though. Give what you get and get what you give.
Steve says
If I am able to divorce and date again, I want a woman who puts me off from the heavy stuff until we are both fully committed and 100% exclusive.
Unfortunately my dating prime was in my 20 – 22 year old years. Most of the time the women I dated slept with me early on, we either became “exclusive” or I naively thought it meant something more.
Where i say “exclusive” I mean they stated that we were, and called me their boyfriend, but 2/3 girlfriend cheated, and the one became my multiple cheating spouse.
Since I have the experience of knowing what I need, I now know that a (for sake of argument MANY)woman that will have sex with me fast will also be fast and careless with cheating.
So I would say make them wait until there is a relationship. After that, go for it.
Rose says
Me neither Jennifer. Who’s setting a merry divorce example? I personally do not know anyone who does that? and is not something I have seen or heard of Is that your experience?
Joe says
Rose, how do you know people who have casual sex, a) have a void, and b) that it’s casual sex they’re using to fill that void? Sounds a little presumptuous on your part.
JB says
@Tina 74 – I don’t “hit” women but yes occasionally while I’m sleeping with them I still may be emailing other women that might be more what I’m looking for long term. If I find someone who I feel fits what I’m looking for for a relationship (which is rare) I will act accordingly and play it that way. In the meantime………… life goes on. Actually I did meet someone like that about a year ago. After one meet & greet with me and 2 others she picked one of them took her profile down and lived happily ever after. She was on Match less than 2 weeks.
starthrower68 says
@ Rose #77,
That was me commenting on Jennifer’s remark that it’s sad when young girls don’t feel comfortable with their sexuality. My young daughter doesn’t need to concern herself with that and when she is out from under my roof I won’t be able to do anything about it. Until then, promiscuity is not an example set in my home. If that makes me hateful and intolerant than so be it.
Cat5 says
Joe @ 78 – maybe it is a presumption on Rose’s part, but it’s probably an accurate presumption with respect to a significant percentage of the population engaging in casual sex. All you have to do is truly listen to what people having casual sex are saying about it, sex, and other parts of their lives, and it is obvious. (DISCLAIMER: Please note I did not say everyone; I said a significant percentage of the population engaging casual sex.)
JB @79 – seriously…a year ago she met three guys, choose one, took down her profile, and lived happily ever after? How long do you think happily ever after lasts? Have some perspective. IMHO after less than a year with someone, I don’t think that statement can be made. In fact, statistically speaking it goes against her living happily ever after. Let’s see where she and this guy are in about 60 years. If they are still together, then it would seem appropriate to say happily ever after.
Rose says
Joe.
It feels rather tiresome when other people make up stuff about what I actually wrote. I accept I have no control over that. Just feels tiresome and been as I want to feel energized, this is the last time I am going to comment on this point.
When men say things like fill a void like JOHN did I make NO PRESUMPTION, I take the words REAL meanings and respond accordingly. MY response, my feelings were “I feel deeply sad hearing about others trying to fill a void by having casual sex.
Salient words here being HEARING, so not presuming. and OTHERS! Others and everyone have two different meanings that is why the English language has two different words for these things. If I has meant everyone I would have used that word and not have used the word OTHERS.
If other people tell me they feel lonely and go looking for sex to fill the void of their loneliness then again I take it as it is.
So some people do this. I NEVER stated everyone.
Then many other men have told me when younger it was plain and simple raging hormones and they pretty much would f8888888cck any woman just for hormonal release if they were able to get some girl to agree to that rather than masturbate. And had no interest in that particular women, were just after a shaaaag. Not a girlfriend etc..
Sarah says
I always think its weird to put constraints on when you can have sex. If it feels right and you’re careful about STDs etc then go with it! My BF and I had sex on our first date, but our first date lasted an entire weekend and I had spent about 28 hours with him straight before having sex. But technically I only knew him for a day… I guess it doesn’t take me an inordinate amount of time to get to know someone’s general character. If we hadn’t had sex though and he had found out later it was just because I have a preordained amount of time that has to pass first he may have left me.. you never know whats going to happen with relationships. Of course, if you DONT feel ready and its doesn’t feel right then yeah, you should wait.
Karmic Equation says
I think it’s safe to say that no woman wants a lousy lover. — Nor men either, but I think men are less judgmental about this because of their biology – There’s a joke by a male comedian “When sex is good it’s pretty good; when it’s bad, it’s still pretty good!” — Not so for women :7
Do you think he became a great lover in a vacuum? He just woke up magically one day with exemplary Don Juan skills? Would you REALLY rather that he gained those wonderful skills having been in ONLY “deeply committed relationships that were transcendent” than that he got those wonderful skills in less than ideal relationships with meaningless bimbos 😉 ? Are you sure sex with YOU will transcend his prior transcendental experiences? You’re sure sex with you will be that good?
Not sure about you other gals, but I know I’d rather believe that he DIDN’T have any meaningful relationships until I came along 🙂 And that his sexual experience was gained with meaningless shags until I came along to help him understand what meaningful shags were all about. And I’d rather he knows what he’s doing than if I had to teach him.
JB says
@Cat5 – Ummm I was being facetious with the “happily ever after” thing…lol she’s 48 and divorced twice so “statistically speaking” you’re right. I more meant she never came back on Match after the 2 weeks even though she originally signed up for 6 months. So yes, she’ll have to be with him for 40 or so more years for “ever after”. I’ll let you know WHEN(not if) she comes back on Match. 🙂
Julia says
@Karmic how strange that you hope he would have not had any meaningful relationships before you. Are you in your early 20s? I think its a strange fantasy to hope you are his first real relationship, just as strange as Rose’s hopes that she will meet a man with very few partners. We are all adults here. Look at your past (sexual/dating) and assume that any man you date will have a similar dating past than you based on how long he’s been on this earth.
We don’t live in a fairy tale gals and Prince Charming isn’t riding in on his white horse all we can hope and expect is a man that will care for us and treat us well for the rest of our lives.
Karmic Equation says
@Julia
Look up “hyperbole”.
Sparkling Emerald says
Juilia – (IRT 86) Didn’t you notice the little smiley face Karmic put after her remark about meaningful relationships ?
Joe says
@ Rose #82:
It still sounds to me like you misunderstood what John was saying. John was saying, in a nutshell, that even if you’re not putting out for a guy, some other probably girl is.
Susan61 says
@Steve #76
If I am able to divorce and date again, I want a woman who puts me off from the heavy stuff until we are both fully committed and 100% exclusive.
Steve, if this is what you want, why put the entire onus on the woman? Certainly you’re at an age where you have better control of yourself so cannot you also play a role in delaying sex? Do you have any responsibility in how quickly sex happens or do you, as an adult, also have the ability to “go slow” to “say No, not yet”?
I get tired of the woman (especially in the over 40 crowd, I’m over 50 – gasp) always being expected to have to control her sex drive when men are still allowed to plow full steam ahead. Thus the woman usually ALWAYS takes the blame for the failure of the relationship depending on when sex happened, how soon it happened, how it did not happen fast enough, etc. She’s too easy, she’s not a challenge, she doesn’t “respect” herself (as if she is dirty or damaged goods somehow, for being sexual/having sex). Sigh. Yes, I know, Evan teaches men are not going to change so women have to adapt but the fact remains, women are human beings and we have sex drives too! Yet we are continually judged and punished for having sex drives (and this drive is primal and strong for many of us) and for having the gall to actually give into the drive every once in a while!
I recently had a brief “thing” with a guy I met online. He “disappeared” after five dates. We did not have “sex” but we did everything else and for me, it was fun and I really liked him. Oh well, he did not feel the same apparently. Yet I still, at 51, had to worry that he would think “well, how many guys does she do that with?” (Thanks “Still Looking” for letting me know that NOT ALL men think this way). And I would never, ever think to judge him in the same way nor would he worry that I would judge him.
I know the double standard will never go away and women just have to try to make our way but I am continually reminded that women will never be allowed full human being status in the sexual realm. It is what it is.
Ok, rant over.
Susan61 says
OK, I just re-read Steve’s comment and I see he did say “until we are both fully committed” but it still says “puts me off” as if it is up to her to push him off of her and be the one to say NO.
And I keep forgetting to double space between paragraphs!!
Karmic Equation says
@Susan61
Most men aren’t going to do turn down easy sex with an attractive woman. So “no not yet” is a ploy by a savvy player; or the guy is just not that into you; or maybe someone very religious. So you really probably DON’T want a “no, not yet” kind of guy.
There’s no reason to control your sex drive. You’re 50+. Have fun. If you find a man attractive and he you. Then there’s no reason to not have sex UNLESS you need a relationship to go along with the sex. I would ask WHY do you want a relationship? If you can separate sex from relationship, you don’t have to control your sex drive at all.
I’m sorry your guy disappeared. I know how excited you were about him. Here’s something you might consider. Did you mirror his level of excitement for you? If you were MORE excited about him than he you (and he could tell that), that could feel like desperation to him and that’s a turnoff. You have to control the excitement. He should know you like him, but not how much. The “how much” part you need to mirror. If you mirror him, and he wants you to be more excited, he’s going to show more excitement to you to get that from you.
And when you say you did “everything else”, I’m going to assume oral sex was part of that. It’s really strange. I think a lot of men and women think that oral sex is “not really sex”. But I think oral sex, especially when a woman gives it, is MORE INTIMATE, and I think subservient, than vaginal sex. Frankly, I don’t think men deserve oral sex until he’s your bf.
There are men out there who are just good for fun. Then there are men out there who are good partners. There’s nothing in the “rule book” that says you can’t have fun while looking for a good partner.
Separate your need for a relationship from your sex drive and you won’t lament the double-standard. Just choose wisely. Wanting a relationship from the “fun” guy is heading for heartbreak. And wanting a relationship from the good partner guy would work if you don’t inadvertently do something that could turn him off. Early sex isn’t a turnoff to a good guy, but over-excitement, change of behavior after sex (e.g., possessiveness, future-talking), drama, etc., that’s what’s going to make a good guy leery and potentially scare him off.
Susan61 says
@Karmic Equation:
I have a hard time separating sex and having sex for sex’s sake. I don’t really handle casual sex well but I have been doing lonnng periods with nothing. If I like a guy enough to have sex with him then I would desire him as a boyfriend/partner. With this last guy, I did not pursue him once we met off line and I did try to mirror the level of interest…I may have been slightly more “excited” on the third date – oh well. I realize this in retrospect. So sue me, I’m human. I don’t believe it would have been construed as desperation though…
I don’t always get it 100% right and it seems one false move is all it takes. Sigh. Also he was a few years younger. Yes, we had oral sex and I guess I agree somewhat with you but for me, intercourse feels more intimate. I kind of regret the oral sex but I can’t take it back now, it felt a little awkward the first time, like “what am I doing?” but I hadn’t been with a man in three years so it was difficult to stop. And he went first on me so it wasn’t like I was over eagerly trying to please him. Here’s where my sex drive comes into play…..that pesky old sex drive!
There was no future talk on my part, there was no possessiveness, I’m not a drama seeker. I may have said one off-color thing to him but he said MANY things that would have possibly turned someone else off. I tend to be tolerant and accepting unless the behavior is rude (although he did say a couple insulting “neg” type things to me, however…hmm…wil not divulge for privacy reasons) He talked about his exes a LOT. E.g. We went to a restaurant and he made a point of saying that he and Susie Q came here and sat over there, and then I got to hear a little more about Susie Q. This was typical. Definitely had player-ish tendencies but since he had children (50% custody) and was well educated I probably gave him a bigger pass.
On our last date at a performance, he took and held my hand tenderly through the show, brought it up to kiss it gently, put his arm around me, etc. He was very flirty and romantic. We had a really nice fun time, ended up here in a passionate embrace, he emailed the next day, a couple days later….I emailed him after a week (which seemed Ok after five dates), he responded right away then disappeared. It is what it is.
Tom10 says
Susan61 #90
“I get tired of the woman always being expected to have to control her sex drive when are still allowed to plow full steam ahead… (as if she is dirty or damaged goods somehow, for being sexual/having sex). Sigh.”
I’m also sorry to hear about what happened with your most recent dating episode — I remember reading your initial posts describing it. Sometimes you can do everything right and it still doesn’t work out.
Like you I am also dismayed when I read comments from some men on blogs disparaging women for exercising their sexuality. However, although there will probably always be a percentage of men who judge women I believe the number of men who support and encourage women to express their sexuality in whatever way that suits them is growing. The majority of male posters on this blog appreciate that women are sexual beings too.
I just can’t even imagine even contemplating inhibiting my sexuality due to worrying if others might judge me, so I can appreciate it being difficult for women with high libidos.
Karmic Equation #92
“I think oral sex, especially when a woman gives it, is MORE INTIMATE, and I think subservient, than vaginal sex. Frankly, I don’t think men deserve oral sex until he’s your bf.”
I’ve had a lot of one-night-stands over the years and I’ve always been slightly intrigued and bemused by what different women consider more or less intimate. I would say on balance the majority of women are like you and are more likely to have vaginal sex before oral sex. However, what always struck me as odd is the significant amount of women who don’t mind giving oral sex to me as a stranger but don’t like to have the favour returned. I’ve had regular sex and received oral sex from a lot of women and then when I tried to reciprocate they looked at me askance and actually said “but I don’t even know you,” I’m like huh? You just did it to me! Bizarre.
Trying to crack the female psyche is just so interesting!
Karmic Equation says
@Susan61
Sad to say, but it sounds like he may have found someone else.
@Tom10
Well. I think fellatio is a skill that some women pride themselves on and is a thing to “show off”. My “girl-game” tells me that in a world where men can get bj’s at the back of a dance club, telling a guy he has to be a bf to get THAT from you makes him go, “hmm, interesting.” An easy way to tunnel into a guy’s head and if he really likes you, he works toward that in spite of himself. I just planted the seed, he makes it grow. But that isn’t why I withhold. It’s because I think fellatio requires NO effort on the guy’s part and a guy who isn’t your bf doesn’t deserve to have “no effort” release from something you (“the woman”) has to work to give him. Too subservient, imo.
It is really bizarre if a woman thinks it’s ok to give oral to a stranger but not receive it because you are a stranger. LMAO. I have to admit that makes not sense to the logical me; but the woman in me understands the sentiment.
Gina says
I believe that the empathasis shouldn’t be on when or when not to have sex, but more on determining on what you need and want in a partner and whether or not having sex too soon would interfere with determining that. I know ththere’re are no full proof ways of success with relationships but if you use your head and heart, be true to yourself – whatever decision thou make will be from a place of strength. I think it is best to get to know restraint only because I know what I want can not be s determined within a few dates, and I don’t want to share that part of myself with someone I don’t feel strongly about on a deeper level.
marymary says
susan
Hindsight is 20-20 but the writing was on the wall when he was so elusive. If a man likes you, he will let you know. I don’t think this has changed in the 21st century or at our age. He might be klutzy or shy about it if he’s not experienced with women but I feel that this guy doesn’t fall into that category. They will phone you, they are easy to get hold of, they dont’ go dark for days, they don’t operate via emails/texts and ambiguity. They don’t bang on about their exes. You do get prime date nights (Fri/Sat). He will want to see you at least once a week, with it increasing over time.
It’s not about one false move unless it was completely egregious. There is nothing wrong with being excited about a date or being affectionate. They should like that! If a man disappears because of that, well, he did you a favour.
I have way more sexual experience than my boyfriend. He doesn’t judge me for it at all. I judged myself though, so maybe you judge yourself more than the man did. You should let yourself off the hook.
If you cannot have sex for the sake of sex I would accept that about yourself and act accordingly. I don’t think you’ll be limiting your options too much to only get intimate with men who show genuine interest. It’s oldfashioned, but you should be able to FEEL them making an effort. They want to do things for you and give to you . It was a man who said that to me, by the way, not a woman (for the record, I thought what he said was ridiculous and would never happen for me. I was wrong). While women may have high expectations around chemistry and his job etc, many of us seem to have shockingly low expectations around how he actually treats us. Someone being cuddly with you on a date is nice, but it’s not that big a deal. Especially if you’re attractive, friendly and warm. Why wouldn’t he?
Going on his past form he could be back (via email) for a do-over if his other options fall through. If so, think about whether he has anything genuine to offer. I don’t think this guy is bad or hurtful. But it has every potential to become quite a mess for you if you continue engaging with him and analysing him and yourself. I find that the more time I spend thinking about a relationship, the less substantial it actually is in reality. There’s no need to grab at straws just because you’re going through a lean patch, if anything, it’s time to get serious about what you’re really looking for.
I understand that online dating has its own challenges and exceptions, and I’m sure Evan has specific advice on that.
thatgirl says
marymary #97
Beautifully articulated.
Joe says
@ Karmic #95:
As I understand it, some (many?) women are uncomfortable with the way their vaginas look. I would expect that those women would be uncomfortable with having a strange man with his face in her crotch.
Karmic Equation says
@Joe 99
Yes. That is what the woman in me suspects 🙂
Women are not as proud of their private parts as most men are. LOL
Julia says
@Karmic speak for yourself, I am completely fine with mine.
Karmic Equation says
+1 @marymary 97
Karmic Equation says
@Julia
Good for you that you’re one of those women who are ok with strangers going down on you.
It’s apparent that you don’t read all the posts since you’ve written so many responses out of context.
Jacky says
I agree with this post. I love the word “sexclusiviti.
Cat says
I would advise that sensitive women/men delay having sex as long as possible as it can take a long time to assess someone’s character.
Unfortunately there are a lot of men ( and women ) out there who have personality disorders and it may take you many months to work this out as you need to see the person in different settings and see how they treat you and other people,.
When we want to be in a relationship and meet someone who is : fun, charming, attractive we can initially make excuses for worrying or poor behaviour but it takes time to see that these are not isolated incidents but true reflections of how the person functions.
FiFi says
“When should I have sex with him for the first time”? When you are married to him!! Simple really… Nobody wants to wait anymore, instant gratification – no wonder there’s so much confusion and hurt out there. Giving yourself away time after time…. hmmmm.
Andy says
Are you serious?
elli says
@JB
I once was in a similar situation you described. I had been dating a man for a couple of weeks, everything went well and I wanted to become intimate with him. At that point I found out he had been meeting some other women simultaneously. The consequence was that I got so disappointed and discouraged emotionally that I slowly but surely lost interest in him. He tried to explain to me that he hadn ´t been seriously interested in those other women and yes, our dating had been casual up to then, so I shouldn ´t have bothered, but the reality was that his behaviour put me off and finally I stopped meeting him. You might say that I wasn ´t fulfilling his expectations but in reality he was not happy about how the things turned out, so obviously I wasn ´t such a bad option for him. So maybe it is wiser to give a chance to one woman over a considerable period of time without mixing with others at the same time. I am about your age, btw.
Lisa says
I agree but online dating ruins this. Men and women have two many choices its nit going to happen this way.
JB says
@elli #107. Like I said for the most part I DO deal with one woman at a time but if I know for sure it’s not going to be a “long term” thing for me because I don’t have those kind of feelings towards her I’ll be on the lookout for someone who’s what I might have THAT kind fo connection with that’s all. That doesn’t mean while I’m sleeping with someone I’m going on 3 “meet & greets” a week or anything it just means I’m looking and keeping my options open.
elli says
@JB
I understand what you are saying. I just wanted to point out that we women are sensitive beings and certain male behaviours that seem perfectly acceptable to them may completely put us off emotionally. E.g. the man I was dating invited me for a romantic dinner, we were holding hands, I got a nice present… and later I found out that the first thing he did on coming home was sign in to a dating site where he spent about three hours. So yes, mentally I understood we were dating casually and hewas meeting other people, but emotionally I couldn ´t absorb it. While I was replaying the nice moments we had spent together, he was already chatting with other women. And like I said, I dumped him because my interest dropped sharply from 90% to about 10. 🙁
Overwhelmed says
[email protected]
Are you meeting women online? How do you focus on one person at the initial stages of dating? I open my profile, I start talking with 10 women, 2 disappear before I get a chance to ask them out on a date. Then I need to start meeting the 8 (or 3 or 6, I’m just throwing a number out) women. Unless I have some strong feeling that one of them is Ms. Right, I don’t want to focus on #1 and ignore 2-8.
Anyone have a solution on how to juggle numerous prospective dates? I even joined EHarmony thinking that would slow things down. It didn’t work because everyday there would be several matches I might be interested in initiating the guided communication.
JB says
@ Overwhelmed #110 Yeah I know what you’re saying….I like to call them “scenarios” and I usually never have more than 3 or 4 going on at once in various stages of emailing, chatting, and meeting etc…. and it usually sorts itself out within a week depending on who will actually MEET me or TALK to me and who for whatever reason just stops returning emails etc…. In other words I’ve never had close to 10 going on at the same time. Not that “I” really have a choice but it seems I keep it at 3 or less most of the time. I’m a very busy man and it DOES get confusing….LOL
@elli #109 I know what you’re saying. I’ve been on great dates with women and come home and see them immediately log on Match and stay for an hour. Like Evan would tell you that’s part of online dating. Unless they tell you “you’re my girlfriend and let’s take our profiles down” anything is fair game. If either of us don’t like it we don’t have to continue to see that person. That’s “dating” in 2013. I know it hurts when you see someone you’re really into logging into Match everyday believe me I KNOW….LOL
Amaryllis says
@ Overwhelmed: Have you heard of a book called the Paradox of Choice? You should check it out.
Lia says
@ marymary # 97
Loved that post. My favorite line… “I find that the more time I spend thinking about a relationship, the less substantial it is in reality.” I texted that line to my sister, it was that good.
judy says
John 10 – thank you for your refreshing honesty.
Some men will wait, and others won’t. Ditto women. When I was 20, I assumed that young men waited, knowing full well in my heart that some of them weren’t waiting at all, and, to be fair, after a while, I thought, what’s sauce for the goose, and did my own thing.
I recently met someone who said he has many many girlfriends. Don’t like to ask – but sounds as if these women are his mistresses, I’ve no idea.
People can promise to be faithful, and wait for the other (even in marriage and committed relationships) but that doesn’t mean that they don’t change their minds.
Life can be difficult – a woman can not feel like having sex (periods, pregnancy, general stress and fatigue) or a man too (for different reasons) and probably the best couples discuss these issues.
An old wise woman once told me – how he treats you outside of bed – is how he will treat you inside it too. (And naturally, this goes for women too).
How true.
judy says
And can someone please tell me what “making out” means? I really don’t know this term.
Is it kissing and cuddling, or foreplay??
Or is it actual sex?
J says
Judy- it can be anything up to, but not including, sex.
judy says
Joe87 – I think most women over the age of say, 16, understand that men have other women in the pipeline so to speak. Whether a woman waits or not is up to her. And that is really a comment irrespective of age. Some things just don’t change.
J 114 – Thank you.
Olive says
Evan – Firstly I love your posts and secondly this one was 100% on the money. I am in my late 20s and like most women have had many many ups and downs in the dating world so I’ve experienced this dilemma on multiple occasions. None of the ‘relationships’ I have had where sex happened fairly early (before we really KNEW each other) have succeeded (that is 100% the rule). Presently I’ve been seeing a guy for the last two months and just last weekend he asked me to be exclusive and that he wants us to be a real couple. I have let him lead and have just said “yes” to dates. We have not yet slept together but have shared a bed a few times over the last month since live about an hour apart. We had a discussion about sex early on and I had mentioned I wanted get to know him without sex clouding my judgement, he agreed and even now that we aren’t seeing other people he is in no rush. Being open and honest about what you are looking for is key. Every pot indeed does have a lid 🙂
Sabine says
There was a comment above about oral sex being more personal than good old-fashioned coitus (and I love this word in its clinical usage!!!) Why? Kissing in general is VERY PERSONAL. How much does the FIRST KISS in a relationship matter? I am referring to a relationship kiss, not some hottie you are smooching with at the bar after a few drinks. Can this be fun? Sure. But, really think about it.
You anticipate the FIRST KISS (in a “blossoming”, not to sound corny, relationship) and there is tension and excitement and then when it happens, it sets the tone. Was the timing right? Was it good? Was there a spark? Do I want him to stop or not? It makes you think what sex will be like with him. Has anyone every thought in their head right before a “FIRST KISS”, is this it? Or, I KNOW he wants to kiss me, grab me and kiss me already!
I think if a man really sees you as part of the long term, his attitude toward you is different. He will want to make sure that you see that he respects you and cares about your feelings. Otherwise, you could send him packing. And if it’s for real (and at some point I do think he pegs you as “a keeper”), he is not going to approach you as he would “a fling” or a “one night stand”. This alone has thrown me for a loop…another post for another time.
I read somewhere (cannot remember for the life of me) that once you have had a long term relationship sex is “the next step” because that’s how things progress when you’ve been with someone, there is no sense of caution. But, when your in a very new relationship, you need to retrain yourself to think that while it feels natural, you don’t have this committed relationship and sex after kissing is not what should happen like it did before. This idea is so you can develop a relationship one step at time (or “one base” at a time as EMK puts it). 🙂
I’ll be totally honest. I do not have sex with just anyone AND I don’t judge anyone who does. I am not a cold fish to say the least, I can assure you. I am not perfect either. This is my personal choice. Why? Because I want the man to know that he is ONE OF FEW and whatever I do with him, I haven’t done with a hundred others. Like I said, I am not judging. From all that I have read about SEX EARLY in a relationship, its bad (And I have read comments by men who agree!) He could be such a loser or a liar or boring (or just plain gross!!! ) and your willing to have sex with them early??? Do we (I mean people) have sex early because we already see the relationship is dull and lack luster so you add some, “sugar and spice”? Or, is it just intense attraction so sex feel logical and necessary? Just some thoughts 🙂
Wisdom says
How can you know someone in one months? that you can trust, and worth a commitment? One month is still too short.
inlovewithaanaussie says
I’m shocked how fast people have sex without knowing. I made him wait 5 months and he was so overly excited the first few times, he didn’t last longer than 5 mins! He could have waited longer to have sex but one night I was in the mood and he really went all out for my birthday taking me to san diego, the lavish hotel, and dinner. He surprised me. Well done. I’m not letting this one go, especially after what I’ve been through with other men.
Reyce says
I personally don’t think there is anything wrong with being intimate with someone early on. The truth is, a guy will lie if that’s what he wants to do. I can see going on a few dates to make sure you are attracted to the person’s personality, but I feel like a real physical attraction can’the hold out for months. Sleeping around is not okay, but we are adults. Sex is natural.
tina says
I’ve dated my boyfriend for 2years and I’ve not had sex wit him all these years and now he is seriously asking for it,I want it too but am afraid of giving in
Beryl says
I love it
Stillsingleat40 says
Very wise advice that I have been following for years that has saved me from a lot of heartache. I do however find it very disheartening that, despite a lot of male attention, I’ve been celibate for years as a lot of the men I meet fall into this category. I was dumped last week by a sexy French guy who was getting far too heavy on a first date and pushing for a lot more than a goodnight kiss. At my age I could do without such encounters.
Susan says
“Conservative Mormon B.S.”
Hm. Why does it have to be “Mormon B.S.”? Not Catholic B.S.? Or Amish B.S.? Or religious B.S.?
It may be true that teaching abstinence before marriage is old school. When not taught properly it can mess with a person’s sexuality.
However, look at the facts. If more people followed the Mormon BS attitude toward sex there would be fewer STDs, fewer unwed pregnancies, fewer abortions, and less emotional scarring from casual sex.
I probably lost focus of what the entent of your article was even about. And while I typically enjoy reading your posts, I am disappointed in your choice to use Mormon doctrine the way you did.
Butterduck says
I have no idea what is right for other women. When I was in my 20s I always had sex early on. I thought that would somehow seal the deal. But I think I just wanted the affection, and I was curious and figured it was going to happen sooner or later anyway.
When I started dating my husband, I was afraid to do *anything” the same way I had! I held out for maybe a month, I think, lol, before we had sex, and this time it added just another dimension to a happy relationship. I think I had just happened to meet “the one,” because here we are 27 years later.
I wish I could tell my younger self not to be so fatalistic about things, but everything did come right in the end. So maybe it’s good that I can’t talk to that girl.
Karen K says
I don’t know what to say here, because now men know the tricks. They tell you they want to be exclusive with you right away, and in my girlfriend’s situation, he said (a doctor) he wanted to marry her, and started talking about their future together. My girlfriend waited 6 weeks to sleep with him, thinking he was exclusive with her (they both said they were) but come to find out, he was wanting a loyal wife to come home to after a long day of cheating. Thank God she insisted on condoms! So, waiting for a “monogamous, committed relationship” or when they say they will marry you won’t always work. The amount of time has nothing to do with it. When there is a connection, and the guy seems trustworthy, you want it too. Holding out just makes you seem like a b*tch. If you don’t want to rip his clothes off by the 4th date, you should find someone else, because the chemistry isn’t there…and if you are forcing the chemistry, then he has money, and you are just using him. Shame on those who do that. Find someone that you click with, wait until there is trust and you are exclusive, and then rip his clothes off.
Benita says
It doesn’t matter how long you keep him wetting. My ex boyfriend i never hard sex with him for like 5 weeks. When I finally did. He did not show much love he did not care he got what he always wanted. I was like it ok have done everything to keep him but it not working. So after a long time I meet my resent boyfriend in the supermarket. We exchange numbers. We use to chat always. For like 2 weeks. When I went to meet him I never wanted to have sex with him. But when I got there everything change. We make love together after that in the morning he asked me will you be my girlfriend. And we are still dating till now a year plus. And his out of the country his coming back is to see my family for the preparation of are marriage. So it doesn’t matter a guy that really want u if you like let him stay for a year or give it to him when you like. He will still love you and the one that doesn’t will not.
Peace says
The best way about this thing is to wait until after marriage, at least, no guy will be willing to marry a lady just bcos of sex,he will also be sure that he loves her before deciding to marry her
disappointed says
ladies should not wait. buffet once said, “saving sex for old age”
and ladies please have sex with everyone equally. Imbalance is a bit disturbing, where one alpha male gets all the ladies. The alpha males already are high achievers. It’s the little guys who need a lift. please help!
there are two types of men:
1 who thinks you are his type.
1 who is just curious.
Waiting won’t screen away the latter. Some men, esp high achievers, can delay gratification. Most likely outcome is you will waste years of life trying to get a guy every other girl wants. While men with potential are left by you to shrivel or else adapt to be self-sufficient and not need your moral compass.
ngety says
I think waiting Iz gud my bf had to wait 1year as I felt lyk I need to knw him better
Lauren says
Hi, First of all I have to say how much I enjoy your blog, Evan. Your posts are usually spot-on. Great comments too! I was agreeing with Rose for a while but then when she got religious she lost me.
Overall, I agree that it is better to wait for sex.
Disclaimer! I’m in my 40s, single and have had my share of casual sex. In my 20s it was fun mainly because it helped me learn what I liked and in the pre-Internet early 90s it still felt “rebellious” to have casual sex. Now it’s common place. But I think women in their 20s need a period of casual sex.
Now in my 40s I know what I want and what gives me orgasms. Casual sex can be fun, but the emotional place it leaves me off in is not fun, so I get those great orgasms with my middle finger, while waiting to get to know the man I am dating. I have great orgasms and I love sex. None of the guys I’ve fucked would ever call me inhibited. More importantly, I know that about myself.
Young ladies, the men will get you worried that you will be considered a “prude” or “sexually inhibited” if you want to wait for sex. Don’t buy into that. Do you think you are a sexually inhibited prude? All that matters is that you know yourself.
I personally think that after a guy (or a woman) puts a certain amount of time into something, they have a harder time walking away. When I’m at TJ Maxx and I’ve been hunting for a dress for 1 hour, I tend to buy a dress even if it’s not “the one” so as not to leave empty-handed. But if I’ve only been looking for 5 minutes, I can leave without buying anything. I think it’s the same with dating.
Not that we should settle for something less than perfect. Soul mates and nothing less is my motto. I’ve met them, and lucky for me, I’m idealistic and patient enough not to settle. That waiting period is important because it gives you the chance to converse and find out if you are soul mates. What if later I found out he was into Bruce Springsteen and Led Zeppelin, while I’m into The Stranglers, Super Furry Animals and PJ Harvey? I’d rather know about those things to begin with!
So you men will protest about my arbitrary rules, and tell me that you won’t stick around because I’m a prude. So fine, don’t stick around if you are in a hurry. But if you take the time to get to know me, you will be rewarded. Eventually we will all (mostly) find someone who wants what we want.
Mercy says
u can’t change anything about wat someone is thinking even if u wait for a hundred years,lets try to live lyf as it is.
Emely says
I dont know anymore. Look just follow society unless you dont care about being judged. This world and learning how to be human let alone understanding humans is a darn hard full time job!
Peepos says
What is this world coming to? Men telling women to sleep around knowing full well they wanna marry woman who is dam damn near virgin. And women telling other women is ok to be sluts and hoes.
blacky says
This is so stupid. Have sex when you want. Simple. You are not going to fall in love and have your heart broken from every guy you fuck. It’s ridiculous.
Elizabeth says
There is nothing worse than having sex with a guy who puts on a decent act of being chill only to have him in your home later and find out he is TOXIC. The reality of the situation is that once you have shared biomes with someone their relational and emotional predisposition as well as parts of their body composition will be PERMANENTLY entwined with yours. This is a known scientific fact, the biome sharing and how in the gut hormones are produced that affect your mind. So the toxic aftereffects you feel for several days if not weeks and months after having made a bad decision are real. And you’ll pass them on the right guy if you don’t take the time to detox both emotionally and physically. It’s not as easy as one might think to move on from bad sex. And that’s just if you don’t get a disease or a pregnancy or a stalker or someone going around slandering you, or having ended up with someone who takes illicit photos or recordings of you. People who have casual sex thinking it’s cool just haven’t had enough experience in the real world to know the kind of risks they’re taking. Get to know a guy first. Make sure he is really a friend, and trustworthy, and will get your back whether or not you two are getting it on. Discuss having sex in the context of your greater relationship. Then if everything is still chill, go have fun and if it doesn’t work out you can both share your disappointment with each other and move on meaningfully and respectfully, and you won’t be stuck with loads of toxic stress and Who Knows What Else. Signed, you wish I were your mom because I speak from experience, not some theoretical wishful la-la land. I’ve made the Mistakes You Really Want to Avoid. And for whatever reason, am still sane and healthy, but not from lack of having to clean up my own messes.