How Fast Should Men Go Sexually?

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Men look for sex and find love. If we can agree on that, why is it so surprising to some women when men try to kiss (and more) on the first date? In this episode, I’m going to give you the lowdown on what men are really thinking and the definitive sexual pace you should move at if you want to keep your spark and get a boyfriend.


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Comments:

  1. 21
    SMC

    Excellent podcast, Evan.   Had never looked at kissing on the first date, which I don’t normally do, in the same light in which you shed it.   Interesting.   I’ll definitely be a little more receptive in the future, though to be honest, I’ve never had a man dump me or get mad at me for not doing it either.   There was always enough of a connection with the ones who eventually turned serious to stick around long enough for things to get physical.

    I have to smile when I think of my current guy’s strategy for getting physical: we had been dating semi-long distance for several weeks (a couple of months maybe?), seeing each other once a week on Wednesdays and texting, then talking and texting every day and evening before he invited me to spend a weekend with him.   “Don’t worry, we don’t have to have sex, I have a guest room you can use.   I’m patient and we can wait as long as you want.”   I was bowled over by this and went up to his place (an hour north) safe in the knowledge that we would take things at MY speed.   Well…we didn’t consummate things that first night but we weren’t far from it.   Sure, he tried but he respected my wishes not to.   By the second night, I myself was so turned on that we DID “do the deed” which cemented the relationship.   It was up to me and there was no way I was waiting any longer, and him saying he could be patient was just what I needed to relax and WANT to go forward all the way.   Great strategy.   If he had pushed, my innate stubbornness would have kicked in, but he let me control the speed which, because of his “patience,” propelled me into high gear.   We laugh about it to this day.

    Thanks for the podcast.   I’ve been pretty comfortable with the speed at which sexual relations have developed for me, but it’s never too late to gain more insight into the mind of men.   And isn’t that why we women are here in the first place?

    1. 21.1
      Cara

      SMC,

      Thanks for sharing your story.

      I have a similar story with my current boyfriend (6 months now) Granted, we are both in our late 40’s, and I’m rather glad to be above the dating age where guys seem to think that they need to be “tided over” with a BJ. My guy would be completely offended if I indicated that he needed to be compensated in some way for a date, or for spending time making sure I am comfortable.

      We were together exclusively a month before I spent the night, and he let me know that he was happy to hold me all night, with no sex.   ( I should say that we are actually both rather insatiable in that area, daily make’s us both happy) He let me know up front that he would wait as long as necessary.   Between those two things, I was comfortable quickly.

      I am not one to take advantage of a guy’s generosity or good nature, but I want a guy to date me for “me” not what is between my legs, and I need to like him for “him” , not what’s in his pants (wallet or penis).

      If he gives me the impression that sex is expected, he isn’t looking for me. There won’t be a second date.

      At 47, a single mom, with a minivan, and a size 12 to boot, I have no shortage of guys asking me out.   I haven’t had a single guy expect anything other than my company, and a few still hoping I will break up with my current bf.   Maybe that is because we aren’t in our 20’s, but even my daughters, 18 & almost 20, neither are sexually active, (*gasp* both virgins, and not religious, skinny and gorgeous) and no guy that asks them out expects tiding over. If he did, he wouldn’t get a second date, and they would label him a “dog”.

       

  2. 22
    Britt

    Wow, this advice has really shaken me to my core.   I can’t believe what I am reading.   I am extremely selective with my intimate partners, still in easy single digits at the age of 35 years old and not religious.   Haven’t spent a ton of time single, either.   The guys I really liked stuck around until I felt ready for sex of any kind.   My most recent boyfriend was a former Navy SEAL, so very high testosterone and obviously had many, many women before me.   He waited almost 2 months and it became a joke how many nights he was going to stay over and we fall asleep fully clothed talking in bed before caving in!   Unfortunately that kindness and sincerity about him that made me overlook other traits (emotional unavailability), but if HE was willing to be patient with little old me, certainly other more normal men can be patient and not resent it?

    I think I might be out of the dating pool forever if what Evan says here is true!   I’m just not wired to want physical intimacy with near-strangers.   And I’m worth the wait.

    1. 22.1
      SMC

      You’re not out of the dating pool, Britt.   Plenty of men are willing to let you take it at your own speed.   I know.   My partners have all let me call that particular shot, and I’ve rarely been single for long.   That’s not to say there’s no shenanigans, but at the end of the day (or night, as it were), when I managed to keep my clothes on, there were never any hard feelings.   Wait, yes there were, oops,.. 🙂   But none of my partners have EVER been left frustrated to the point of being angry with me.   We had a good enough connection that they thought I was worth the wait.   And you seem like the type who knows how to make that connection too.   I don’t hear Evan as saying “This is how you HAVE to do it,” it’s a guide into the male mindset, and it’s valuable stuff.   Adapt it to your comfort level.

      A Navy SEAL, huh?   I once breifly dated the head of a SWAT team and would have gladly “sped things along,” but alas, it wasn’t to be.   🙂

  3. 23
    PacNWLove

    No one said first date, LilyP.

    Evan,  actually YOU are the one who said to give blow jobs on the first date.  Give another listen  to your podcast. You said “a woman who gives a great blow job also has a great chance of getting a second date. ”

    Maybe you meant a subsequent date, or additional dates before you become exclusive, or something else entirely, but what you said was that providing oral sex on the first date increases your chances of a second date. Directly after  talking  for twenty minutes about how  kissing your date at the end of the first date was a reasonable reward. I’m guessing others were as confused and grossed out as I was when I heard this. I’m choosing to think you meant “subsequent”dates, and not actually suggesting that blow jobs are First Base. As you’re hearing from other women, blow jobs are widely considered to be part of the Home Run, or Third Base at the earliest. I would be really surprised if you truly think blow jobs are First Base and appropriate  as a useful way to get to a second date, but maybe you do.

    I have bought three of your products   and written a couple of letters but I haven’t seen any tips on  how to  sweetly maneuver men who ask  women out  to go on a  date outside their apartment instead of agreeing to wine on their couch on the first date. The Netlix and Chill date is epidemic, and my friends and I haven’t figured out a good response, just in case this is actually a good guy  just being clueless or trying to save money. Your breakup scripts have been really useful for me and I use them often. I’d love to  see a blog post on  what you think an effective way to say “asking me to come over to essentially a stranger’s house and get drunk doesn’t make me feel safe or special” if he seems like  a good guy. Or is any guy who suggests wine at his apartment on the first date not worth a response? How about a second date?

    1. 23.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I misspoke. I believe – as I’ve said repeatedly in this space – that taking a man “around the bases” over the course of 4-6 weeks gives a woman the best opportunity of slowing things down and seeing a man’s intentions clearly and simultaneously keeping the man pursuing and somewhat sexually gratified. I stand by that.

      As to how you “sweetly maneuver men,” via text I would be direct: “Hey, sweetie. I like what you’re thinking, but we’re not up to Netflix and chill quite yet. That’s for boyfriends. If you know what’s good for you, give me a call now and let’s figure out something fun for Friday night. XO” You maintain boundaries without making him “wrong” or shooting him down harshly. It’s the exact same philosophy for handling foreplay in the bedroom (as outlined in Why He Disappeared).

      All the women disagreeing with me here are entitled to your feelings, but the second you make him (or, by proxy, me) “wrong” for thinking that we want some physicality in our dating (as opposed to 6 weeks of paying for dinners/making out), you are hurting your own chances to find a comfortable middle ground that works for both parties.

      Logically, the more a man pleases you, the better chance he has with you. By the same extension, the more you do that makes him happy, the better chance you have with him. Let’s not forget that dating is a two way street, and it’s not just a man’s job to court you, but it’s your job to make him feel good about his courtship.

      1. 23.1.1
        Lilyp

        Quite a few of the men here are also agree with us. Face it Evan, you’re in the minority here. We love you but you’re never going to get a majority of women to see a blow job as less intimate than penetrative sex. No it doesn’t make him wrong to want sex anymore than it makes me wrong to want to wait. Is that not the point though, to screen out men who only want sex? I’m still not getting how waiting making him wait for penetrative sex but giving BJs is achieving that. We will have to agree to disagree, I am sure you’re tired of me at this point LOL

         

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          The majority is not always right. Go to a men’s blog and ask how fast things should move sexually and you’ll get a widely different answer. Which is my point: if you can’t find a middle ground between kissing and intercourse that is mutually satisfying, you may run into problems.

        2. Adreana

          “Go to a men’s blog and ask how fast things should move sexually and you’ll get a widely different answer”.

          Most everyday men can’t chalk up the confidence to ask a woman out let alone have heavy make out sessions. lol. I think they would be thrilled just to make out the first 1-2 months ( if she’s a great woman of course). If he isn’t cool with that then he probably just wanted casual sex anyways.

          I will say one thing though, the reason why I had success with this is because I  was sexy regardless and I knew how to keep them on their toes ( most of them anyway). Had I acted like Mary Poppins,   I probably would’ve had a very different outcome.I am probably one of the horniest virgins my age so that so maybe that helped! haha 🙂

          Thanks for the script, btw! Very helpful.

        3. SMC

          I myself see bj’s as less intimate than penetrative sex, FAR less intimate.   I would only do it with an exclusive partner, but since it’s all about HIS pleasure and not, in particular, mine, it’s not nearly as intimate as when he and I are both getting off together.   I had no idea I was in the minority on this subject.   Makes me want to take an informal poll at my office, though I have a feeling the young ones (girls) would be shocked if I, an older gal, were to bring up the subject.

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          SMC,

          Yep, Evan’s podcast   opened up a huge Pandora’s box of questions.   What acts are considered SEX?   What sexual activities require you to include a partner in your total body count?   What activities should be reserved for exclusive partners?   When or with what activities do you risk getting emotionally attached?   Is x more intimate than Z?

          Evan, I assumed you misspoke in the podcast when you said a blow job would increase your chances of getting a second date.   It was the first post comment when you said good blowjob skills would buy a woman a month before boyfriend decision time came around that was the whoa! moment for me.   Since a reasonable time frame for an exclusivity agreement is deemed to be 4-6 weeks, instead of a trot around the bases, it sounded more like the guy hitting a triple on date 2 or 3 and then hanging out a 3rd base for a long time.

          I enjoy sex, and don’t have to be, nor do I expect to be in love when I first have it with a guy, but I do need to like him and feel comfortable with him.   Kissing on the first date isn’t an issue, so I have to figure out how to get my need for a base level of comfort met while giving him some satisfaction without making him feel like a boor or a blue-balled teenager.   I’ll   have to work on that 😉

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Yes, I misspoke. My point was that if a man is somewhat sexually gratified as he gets to know you/you get to know him/you both decide if a relationship is in store, you have a much stronger chance of things working out. From the comments here, you’d think there was only one side to the story:

          I go at my snail’s pace – keep things above the waist as long as I want – and the right guy will not only like that, respect it but also want to make me his girlfriend.

          Has that happened? Sure. But most adult men have a faster pace in mind and personally, I think it should be a pace that you control – that is EQUALLY agreeable to him.

      2. 23.1.2
        PacNWLove

        Thanks, Evan- I’m adding that to my long list of useful scripts you’ve provided!  Expecting better treatment  and asking for what I want in a relationship  is very hard for me, truly because no one has ever taught me what to say. This really helps.

      3. 23.1.3
        Not Jerry

        Evan, I have met more than a few women who said essentially “I am surprised some man hasn’t snapped me up yet.”   One just last week.
        She talked about how great a cook she was and then said that. But ya know, my assessment of her is that her demeanor was obnoxious. We were at a singles happy hour! She really was not very nice!

        That is laughable. You have to make that snapping happen. This is the 21st century.

        No man is going to sweep in and make you happy!

        You need to make it happen, by being the best version of yourself you can manage. I’m working on that. It’s going to be a lifetime effort.

        Simple. It’s so simple.

        1. Emily, the original

          Not Jerry,

          I have met more than a few women who said essentially “I am surprised some man hasn’t snapped me up yet.”    

          And there’s nothing more unappealing (and painfully transparent) than someone having to point out how great she is. That’s for you to discover as you get to know her. A confident person doesn’t have to announce herself like that.

          I’ve spent time with men who do that: They have to tell you about all the other women who find them appealing. It’s a complete turn off.

    2. 23.2
      Adrian

      Hello PacNWLove,

      Could you either give me a few of those break-up scripts or at least direct me to those post by Evan?

       

      I find myself always at a lost on how to politely let my dates know I am not interested in them; I just find the thought of telling a woman who is obviously very attracted to me that she unattractive, boring, or a weight I’m not attracted to, etc.

       

       

      1. 23.2.1
        Olga

        I understand that if a woman’s really attracted to you, that means that you’ve gone out more than once, correct? I.e. it’s not like you’ve just met and only spent an hour or two together. Yet you can see that she’s overweight or unattractive practically right away. So I’m seeing a little bit of cognitive dissonance here: if she’s unattractive to you, how come you keep meeting/dating for her to fall in love/become very attractive? (Instead of, say, sending her an sms after the first date:”Thank you very much for the lovely evening, but I didn’t feel the nessary click between us. Good luck in your search!”) That just doesn’t make sense to me.

        1. Adrian

          Hello Olga,

           

          I am not sure of your dating experiences but for myself, I have had a plethora of first dates where the other was very attracted to me but I did not feel the same.

           

          Online, it’s more a reaction to how they look physically compared to their pictures; in offline dating it is usually more of a character or personality turn-off. But I have had times when I met women offline that looked one way in a mediumly lite room and differently on a bright day sitting outside. I think whenever you are on the fence about your attraction to a person, it is easy to be pushed to over completely to the left of the right about them.

        2. SMC

          Oh Adrian, I do have to laugh at your comment “But I have had times when I met women offline that looked one way in a mediumly lite [sic] room and differently on a bright day sitting outside.”
          I meet men when I go country dancing, and country bars are always pretty dimly lit.   I am VERY cognizant of the difference in one’s appearance from there to a brightly lit day.   In fact, I told my current man that he would NEVER see me in the light of day after he admitted he had thought I was in my 30’s until we got to talking about previous marriages, kids, etc. and he realized I had to be a lot older than that.   I laughed out loud and that’s when I told him he would only see me at the bar because bar lights are a lot kinder to women than daylight is.   That was 13 months ago.   My opinion is that if one meets in a dimly-lit room, one had better be forthcoming about the change there’s going to be when seen in the light of day.   It is no fun to have a guy do a double-take when the lights go up and say “You DO have lines.”   And yes, a guy once told me that.   🙁

      2. 23.2.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        Adrian,

        I’ve talked through break up scenarios with both my brother and son.   A few ideas:

        If you are on a first date and you’re not feeling it, don’t hint at future dates.   If she says something like, “We should do this again.”   You can either side step by changing the conversation or meet it head on:   “Jane, I’m glad we were able to spend time getting to know each other a little better.   You’re a wonderful woman, but I’m not feeling that spark between us, so it would only give false hope if I said yes, and I respect you too much to let you hang like that.”   If it’s at the end of the date, you part and go your own ways.   If it’s in the middle of a date, not answering the question, and changing the subject may be a more comfortable option.

        If you didn’t get put on the spot with a we should do this again, at the end of the date, do not hug or kiss her, simply say “Thank you for a nice evening.”   Leave it at that.   Don’t say “I’ll call you sometime,” or anything like it.   It might be a little awkward, but you haven’t said or implied that you want to spend more time with her.   If she is hurt when you don’t call a week later, it’s on her, you made no promises nor did anything to create her expectation.

        If it’s later on in a relationship with a woman, a version of the statement above will work.   Another way to do it is to say, “It’s not a matter of either of us being wrong in anything, I just don’t think we have the level of compatibility needed to move ahead”.   By doing this, you aren’t blaming her, “You’re just not_____ (insert adjective here) enough for me.”   But you are stating the truth of the matter:   You’re not comparable enough to go to the next level.

        Breakups will always involve someone being disappointed, sad, or hurt.   There’s no magic words to turn those feelings off.   Be honest and maintain your integrity.   Don’t give false hope or knowingly create expectations.   She might do that herself, but it’s not on you.   Some girls will still freak out, just like some guys freak out when women break up with them..   It’s a hazard that goes with the territory.   Be deliberate, honest, and kind and hopefully you will minimize any blowback.

        If there is something totally egregious going on with the woman, you may want to let her know, depending upon how long you’ve been with her, so that she gets the help she needs in her life.   If you love or care for her it could be the biggest gift she ever receives from you.

        For instance there is a woman in my circle of friends who is beautiful, intelligent, educated, a good cook, and likes to hike, camp, and do other outdoor activities.   Unbeknownst to us, she had a horrible temper and would scream, cuss, and kick doors and cars when she was angry.   She had an LTR over several years where they just didn’t make it to marriage.   Her boyfriend told her she needed counseling, but he never told her WHY.

        They broke up and she started dating again.   Several guys over a year or two. A bunch of us girls were on a weekend girls’ retreat.   We had been drinking, watching movies, and talking.   Z decided to call her new boyfriend.   When he didn’t answer, she repeatedly called and texted him, becoming more paranoid about what he was doing.   She left nasty messages and began swearing, screaming, and kicked the laundry room door of our friend’s parents’ lake house.   We finally got her to settle down and go to sleep.   The next morning everyone got up before Z.   We we’re all like WTF?   No wonder guys keep dumping her (that was actually said).

        When Z woke up, she immediately complained that D was such a jerk.   We all confronted her on her behavior.   She didn’t see what she did as being that bad.   Apparently her parents had spent their 40 years of marriage having knock down drag out fights, that included name calling, hitting walls and doors, and saying they hated each other.   This was actually “normal” for her.

        That boyfriend broke up with her too. But the incident led her into a year of therapy to deal with her anger issues.   A few years later she met a man and got married.   She never would have if us four women and her boyfriend at that time had not told her specifically that name calling, kicking doors, swearing, and screaming was abusive behavior any sane guy should walk away from.

        1. Caroline

          Hi GWTF-interesting story. Do you think on some level she knew it was wrong? And she thought she could get away with it because she was beautiful, intelligent, etc?   Could someone be so oblivious to not know that was bad behavior? Maybe she did really think that’s how folks behaved behind closed doors?

          funny story. My mom tells it on herself:). She actually called her mother sobbing because my dad “raised his voice” with her! Not yelled or ranted or hit walls. Ha Not so funny story-my ex rarely showed any temper   until after 15 years in when he began to drink. I pray my sons will not think all that’s normal. I took them to therapy after our divorce   but you gotta wonder how much of that is deeply instilled as with your girlfriend-sad and scary.

        2. Caroline

          Oh-why I asked if you thought she was aware it was bad behavior was because of how my ex reacted to it when you call him out on it! It was so bad that my attorney told me to file a restraining order because of how he acted outside the atty’s office. He always denies by insisting I’m either crazy or I’m blowing it out of proportion. I think that he does that so he can feel better about himself by not only lying to others but to himself. It worries me that my sons after hearing this denial they actually give him the benefit of a doubt. Like most bullies-it’s “she started it, she shouldn’t have done x, y or z”.   Makes you wonder what your girlfriends parents fed to her to excuse their actions:(

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Caroline,

          One of the women who was at the Lake house that weekend had met the boyfriend (Z self describes as the love of her life) who told Z she needed to go to counseling.   After the lake house weekend the friend ran into this ex of Z’s and they had a real frank discussion about it.   The big temper blow outs happened about twice a year, but Z was also quick to snap at things.   He wanted to marry Z, but the blowouts frightened him.   He wondered if they had kids if Z would snap and hurt them.   He told Z she needed to go to counseling for her temper, but never got specific about what concerned him.   Z didn’t think she had much of a temper and thought her ex was being too sensitive.   I think it was because these big arguments were far between, and they would part then see each other and nothing was ever said, so I think she thought it was forgiven and forgotten.

          Z really loved this guy and I wonder if she would have realized there was a problem if he said, “I love you, but I won’t marry you until you go to therapy and address your anger issues.   And by anger issues I mean how you explode, call me names, tell me you hate me, kick pieces of furniture, slam doors, storm out, and then the next day act like nothing happened.   This is not acceptable, and this is a relationship breaker.   I am afraid that if we have kids, you will explode at them like you do at me which will be very damaging to them.   I want to help you, but you have to want to change.”

          I think most other guys saw that she snapped at things and walked away.   Then she had the drunks text and phone rage at D.   He told her that it was verbal abuse and that no one had ever behaved that way towards him and he broke up with her.

          So I think it was the both denial on her part, and that the blow out stuff was well hidden.   Everyone on the weekend retreat had known her for years and some had travelled with her and never saw the extent of it.

          I do think that if your SO is potentially dangerous are too volatile to predict.   By all means put safety first by walking away!

      3. 23.2.3
        Nissa

        Adrian,

        Some of the things I have said to dates with whom either I was not attracted or I felt they ‘were not into’ me. At the end of the date I would say:

        – Thanks for such a creative / thoughtful / fun date! Take care, have a great night / weekend.    I can tell you are   ___ (a good daughter, a kind sister, patient,  selfless, whatever I think he or she  finds of value.   After all you do want to be kind, while not making any promise of  further dates).

        -I don’t think __ is right for me, but I can see it’s worked really well for you.

        – I would never be able to do ___ (when something about them is something I know I’d never be willing to do, like  babysit her sister’s kids or  host the  NRA group). It’s a subtle hint that you will never, ever be willing to join this person in that activity, lol.

        – I really love ___ (picking something they have said they don’t like, and revealing that I’m really into it. For example, if they are eating their body weight in dessert, I mention my deep love of  riced  cauliflower  as my normal dinner. Kale,  brussel sprouts, or vegan meals are almost guaranteed to turn off a potential suitor you are trying to avoid).

        – I know I’d never __ (have the patience to have three kids, be willing to stay home every Sat night, take care of her alcoholic brother, whatever thing she does that you know is a deal breaker).

        Trust me, after you say those things she’ll be running the other way. It’s always easier to have them self select out.

  4. 24
    KK

    I read the post and comments before I had a chance to watch the video and I was a little surprised by all the negative comments, wondering what exactly Evan said that had so many upset. After watching the video, I was more baffled because he mentioned the BJ thing ONCE as ONE POSSIBLE SOLUTION to keep things steadily progressing. You would have thought that was the entire premise of it, which it wasn’t. Geez.

    1. 24.1
      Adrian

      Hi KK,

      I did the samething. I actually went back and listened to it again thinking I missed a whole section.

      Interestingly enough, it seems many are also missing the part where he suggested the sexual stuff “after the man has already asked for commitment, and took down his dating profile.”

      The blowjob was just something he suggest women should do for a guy who wanted a relationship and she was not read for sex yet (because women can be ready to call a guy her boyfriend but still not be ready to have sex with him). I wasn’t getting that Evan was suggesting that women should just give blowjobs to some stranger she isn’t even sure she wants to date.

      …    …    …

      To paraphrase a quote from the movie Gladiator,

      “the mob is fickle, it’s as if everything he taught before this has been forgotten and the crowd now doubts him”

      1. 24.1.1
        Lilyp

        KK and Adrian, listen again and read Evans comments agains. He even admitted he misspoke.

         

        1. Adrian

          Hi Lilyp,

          I will re-read the comments and listen again.

          But the reason I quoted the line from the movie Gladiator is because it seems like just because Evan misspoke, some readers are now treating him like he is not the same man who wrote “women are the CEO’s of their companies (their dating lives) and should treat men as if they are applying (courting) to be her intern (boyfriend).”

           

          I guess my point is, if Evan ever slipped up and said that a guy who met a woman for the first time in person (first date) “deserves” a Great blowjob from her that night.

          I would not sweat it, because it is not consistent with what he has been saying over and over for the last 10 years!!! Evan is a straight man who loves sex, but that does not mean that he would ever put a random man’s sexual urges over a woman like his sister, his wife, his mother, or the commenters seeking his guidance.

        2. Adreana

          “Interestingly enough, it seems many are also missing the part where he suggested the sexual stuff “after the man has already asked for commitment, and took down his dating profile.”

          Yeah, but from my understanding the guy is likely to ask for a commitment after a  few weeks  to a month ,correct ? So in that case it’s ok to give him a bj .

          I don’t know about you, but I’m very wary of  people who ask for a commitment after a few weeks of dating ( esp. if we only see each other once a week). I want a guy to make that decision from a grounded, secure place where he KNOWS he wants a relationship with me. The bj isn’t “special” to him if he still hasn’t reached that point….similary, if you took a woman to lets say, a very romantic date of dinner on a yacht. Yes, she will feel great , but she would appreciate it even more   if you did that after   you really got to know her. Now she feels really special, and doesn’t think you’re trying too hard too soon. And honestly, I don’t see a bj as a “reward ” for a guy who’s been taking you out for a few weeks and paying for dinner( at least first few dates)- I see those actions as the bare minimum to keep seeing a guy.

        3. Adreana

          lol I meant to say,   so in that case it’s ok to give him a bj according to podcast.

        4. Adreana

          GoWithTheFlow

          You wouldn’t believe how many times I heard my girlfriends express their frustations with this—they go down on their boyfriends after they’ve asked for it , but when they ask for the same they get excuses …”oh i’m too tired, maybe another time”. I’m shocked they continue to have sex with these selfish men.

        5. Adrian

          Hi Adreana,

           

          I’m curious, do you believe that the more a woman is attracted to a guy the quicker she wants him to commit? Or do you believe that a woman can be really attracted to a guy but still wants him to take months before he wants to be monogamous with her?

           

          Secondly, so if you are dating a guy with lots of options, and you want him to court you for months, do you feel that his reward for all his effort should just be your company and kissing you?

        6. Adreana

          Adrian,

          If I’m really into the guy, my emotions may want him to commit quickly, but my mind wants to take things slower. I am a romantic person at heart, but I’m also a logical/analytical   person. I’d rather get to know him and make smart decisions than rush into things and  feel like a  fool later.    I don’t want a commitment before one month   but I also don’t want to wait too long to  be exclusive.

          As for your second question. I want to have sex too, but not before a committed relationship and   the right time. I don’t see having sex as a “reward ” for a guy that has been courting me…that implies I’m under an obligation to have sex when I’m not ready and that’s pretty insecure and unattractive. In this matter, I don’t treat the guys with options any different than the rest.

          I know this a stupid but bear with me.) Years ago, my girlfriends and I met a very popular singer after a concert. There were a bunch of fans there, and the women ( young and old) went crazy when he showed up! lol and  I sure don’t blame him because he’s ever so gorgeous.) When my turn came, I had a normal playful conversation without throwing myself at him or squealing like the others. In other words, I didn’t treat him like a “celebrity”.

          The normal guys with options are a piece of cake compared to this. lol 🙂 Doesn’t mean I don’t get nervous or have butterflies in the stomach, I just try to be centered as best as possible.

      2. 24.1.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        Hi Adrian,

        A lot of the “disagreement” originated in the comments section.   It’s not because Evan said anything that is wrong it’s because people have differing definitions and value systems when it comes to sexual activity.

        The whole blow job debate centers around whether a person considers oral sex and intercourse to be equivalent activities or assigns a lower seriousness value to blowjobs.   Also coming into play is whether blow job only partners count towards a woman’s “number.”

        My personal view is that oral sex IS sex and I’m usually giving a man his first blowjob during the same session in which we’re having intercourse for the first time.   I also believe that if a woman has had intercourse with 2 men and given blowjobs, but not had intercourse with another 2, her total number of sexual partners is 4.   Not all people hold those same views.   I learned that the summer after high school graduation when two of us girls were at another friend’s house.   Her cousin, who was visiting, smugly informed us that even though she gave blow jobs and had butt sex, she had not had vaginal sex because she was a virgin saving herself for marriage.   (At this point the three non-virgins in the room broke into fits of hysterical laughter 😉 )

        So when Evan said in the comments section that good blowjob skills would buy a woman a month’s worth of time to find out whether or not she wanted the blow–ee to be her boyfriend, the oral sex = intercourse readers reacted negatively to that.   They also reacted negatively to Evan’s comment that, in his experience, women are concerned about their body count and looking for ways to postpone intercourse and emotional investment, so spending time on 3rd base was a way to accomplish that.

        Women readers who believe blowjobs are not as intimate as intercourse and who can give BJs without becoming emotionally vulnerable i.e., they don’t start assuming the guy has feelings for them because they are blowing him, can easily implement Evan’s suggestion.   He reports that many of his clients have had great success doing this.   I don’t doubt that.   For the women who risk becoming emotionally attached because they believe they are being intimate with a man when they give him oral sex, they may be setting themselves up for heartache if they spend a month giving a man blow jobs and then he doesn’t step up to the boyfriend plate.

        For women like this, myself included, we have to recognize that men want sex earlier than later.   Men don’t want to be viewed as disgusting animals for wanting sex.   They don’t enjoy feeling like a 14 year old who can only smooch his girlfriend on the living room couch while her parents are in the next room, when they are responsible adult men.   We have to integrate that knowledge with our own emotional safety needs to come up with a plan to round the bases with boyfriend eligible men.

        For me that might mean making sure dates 1 and 2 end with kisses but not in full body press, groping, make out sessions–thus starting the base trotting off with a sprint.   Then maybe adding blowjobs earlier than at a point where the guy would be getting everything, but at a point where I can reasonably manage my expectations and possible attachment feelings.   The middle I’ll have to figure out 😉

        As for the intensity that was displayed by many women commenters, be aware that the lack of reciprocity a lot of us experience in the oral sex department is a real sore spot.   Many women will wind up giving way more oral sex than we will receive.   It’s a damn shame for us because for many, it’s the most guaranteed way to get to an orgasm.   From what I hear, this imbalance is especially true for young and up and coming young women.   (Read Girls & Sex by Peggy Orenstein or listen to her NPR interview on YouTube). So the suggestion that we give blowjobs, as a way to delay mutually pleasureable intercourse, especially if our belief is to consider them to be equivalent in seriousness, really can grate the nerves.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          At no point did I say you shouldn’t be receiving pleasure, too. I don’t know why I have to say that out loud, but evidently, I have to. Going around the bases is mutually gratifying.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Evan,

          You have never said or implied that going around the bases shouldn’t be a pleasurable experience for women.

          I just wanted Adrian and the other male readers on the blog to know that the temperature setting on some of the responses may be higher than the issue seems to warrant because it hits some women in a sensitive spot that men generally aren’t aware of.   Callie references this type of “baggage” in comment #13

  5. 25
    Karmic Equation

    Here’s another woman that believes bjs are a treat that only bfs should get. Why are they treats? Because that’s the one sex act where the guy “just lays there” and doesn’t have to do anything. ZERO effort on his part.  In fact, I’ve actually told guys who asked for bjs early, that “only bfs get bjs, hon” with a smile as I French kiss them out of their minds.

    And I don’t swallow (not after my first time where I nearly died gagging. lol). Swallowing cum is like swallowing someone else’s phlegm. NO THANKS! lmao

    But bfs have always asked for them anyway, cuz I make it very fun for them to watch. I start the bj, get them to the edge, then finish with a great handjob.

    With vaginal sex, the guy is more than happy to do the driving the first time. And BOTH partners can enjoy his efforts. So, I’d rather have sex early than give bjs early.

    1. 25.1
      Emily, the original

      Karmic,

      Here’s another woman that believes bjs are a treat that only bfs should get.

      I don’t think of them as a treat. They are just one part of the sexual experience. I don’t necessarily do them every time I hook up with a sex partner or boyfriend, but then again I don’t follow a script. I just go into it with one goal: to have a good time with someone I find appealing.

      1. 25.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        By treat, I meant that all there is is a bj. No sex before or after. I don’t expect reciprocity. Just the standalone bj. All give, no take.

        To me, mouth to genitals during foreplay is a reciprocal  foreplay, not a treat.

        1. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          Oh, I got you. Yes, a stand-alone would be a treat!

    2. 25.2
      SMC

      LOL, KE, I always looked at it like swallowing “zinc pudding.”   I figure if a guy can swallow my “essence” and not feel the need to spit and rinse, then I should return the favor.   It’s always been a huge turn-on for them, I’ve never gagged because of it, and the appreciation from them has ALWAYS been through the roof, probably because most women DO gag and spit.   I think I’d feel a little put off if a guy gagged and spit after going down on me.

      Different strokes for different folks, I guess. 🙂

      1. 25.2.1
        Karmic Equation

        LOL. SMC, has your guy ever deep kissed you after going down on you?

        If a guy’s come tasted like my “essence”, I’d be swallowing without gagging 😉

        That said, I’ve been told women tasted differently. Some are sweet, some are salty, etc. I would imagine it depends on her  diet and whether or not she  smoked.

        Also, female pheremones are secreted “down there” – so he gets the benefit of that when he goes down, whereas men’s pheremones are NOT secreted near his genitals, but in his armpits, for example. (I’ve read this  somewhere, but cannot find in Google search, sorry). So we don’t get doses of pheremones when we go down. Maybe it’s me, or maybe it’s the men I date, but I swear they smell like bleach down there.

        LMAO. It’s a wonder I do this at all given all the negatives I’ve just put down in writing. <smh>

        1. SMC

          OK, now I’M laughing out loud, KE.   Yes, I’ve been deep kissed after they’ve gone down on me, and it’s…interesting (tasted like lemons to me, though they said it was sweet).   LOL!   On the other hand, they’ve let me deep kiss THEM after a “completed” bj too – tit for tat – which always surprises me.   Guess they didn’t want to spoil the mood.   Despite my comments, I’ve only tasted a very, VERY select few, and admittedly they tasted as different from each other as men say women do, but none has ever tasted like bleach.   I’m laughing at this whole thread, but gee, it IS a protected site and we ARE on topic.   At any rate, bj’s to me aren’t so much a “treat” as they are an expression of deep and growing attraction, bordering on love before the feelings actually become love, per se.   We are well into the young stages of the relationship before I’ll do it, too – long past most base running except for home plate.   I don’t know, timewise, when I usually do a bj, it just has to feel right.   And it sure as heck isn’t to hang onto a guy, or give him a taste (no pun intended) of what’s to come, it’s just part of the overall Thanksgiving dinner that constitutes the relationship he’s having with me.   The cranberry sauce, maybe – not a full course, just an added bit of pizzazz.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          KE & SMC,

          LOL!

          For the record, many of my girlfriends say it’s not so much a taste issue as a texture issue. 😉

      2. 25.2.2
        Emily, the original

        SMC,

        I figure if a guy can swallow my “essence” and not feel the need to spit and rinse, then I should return the favor.

        I agree. Plus, it’s seems to be that sex comes with … noises, smells, liquids. If you go into the room with someone, it signals you are cool with the whole experience.

  6. 26
    Esther

    Evan, a guy who says”I don’t do that” when you try to kiss him at the end of an amazing date is just someone who isn’t attracted to you. It’s different for women (at least for me) because I can like a guy and think he’s attractive, but could not want to kiss him on a first date. This isn’t because of any arbitrary rules that I set for myself. It’s because someone I spent 2-3 hours with is still a stranger and kissing is something I consider intimate. It’s a sign of trust and it can take at least a few dates to get up to that stage. So the women who say “A guy has to go out with you on X number of dates in order to kiss you” say that because they want to reach a level of emotional intimacy before getting physical.

  7. 27
    Theo

    I get  somewhat puzzled by reading this post because it does not entirely match my dating and relationship experience. I have had  several relations since my youth some thirty years age of various quality and length, including an 18 years long marriage. They all started in a similar way: I met a girl/woman, we dated at at least once a week and very soon we fell in love with each other — typically within a month. While falling in love with each other we started our erotic relationship and soon had frequent intercourse. There was no need for an intermediate phase of bj’s. This may sound simple but from an overall perspective it was not, since I had difficulties finding the right  person(s) — especially in my thenties I was rejected many times by women that I was into. It was a struggly to me, but when I met the “right” girl everything was easy.

    If it isn’t easy, smooth and rewarding, you haven’t found your match!

     

  8. 28
    Sheila

    I just started seeing a man that lives five hours away. I don’t have the time at my age (mid-fifties) to wait for a respectable amount of time to sleep with him. I could be dead tomorrow!   I think giving a great BJ is fine and it simmers him down. It’s not like you’re giving your whole self to him. Women need to chill out on giving BJ’s.   I actually love doing it.

    1. 28.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Shiela,

      Just no.   That’s great that you don’t feel like you are emotionally investing yourself   or “giving your whole self to him” when you blow a guy.   Some women do, and saying they need to “chill out” implies that their sexual need and values are wrong when in fact they are within the range of normal.

      I’m glad you love giving blowjobs.   I love giving them too.   I love doing it so much that I have spent time gathering and learning info on technique.   I made one boyfriend very happy when I told him I wanted to learn how to deep throat and needed to practice.

      You see Sheila, you seem to believe the stereotype that women who need to “chill out” because they put a high value on oral sex, are prudes.   We’re not.   We believe giving head is more than just a method to get a guy to “simmer down.”   We love and care for our guy and want to maximize his pleasure and make him happy.   Because our sex life is mutually pleasureable and he makes us happy.

  9. 29
    Adrian

    This post as well as the post I linked at the bottom are very similar to me, so my answer will be the same.

     

    I feel that both parties (Evan and his female commentators) are correct depending on a few variables. A man who is let’s say a 5 dating a woman who is a 7-7.5 will wait as long as she wants sexually until she is ready; it’s not PC but she holds more power in that relationship. But if both parties are 5s or 7s, then they need to come to a compromise to satisfies both equally.

     

    A woman who is a 5 dating a man who is a 7-7.5 will be most likely be okay to give the man sex earlier if he demanded it. Thought to be honest, I am still having trouble understanding the looks verse success thing in regards to female attraction (sorry Karmic Equation).

     

    So I am not sure if a woman who is a 5 in looks but she is a Lawyer, be willing to compromise sexually with a guy who is a 8 in looks but he works at Walmart; who holds more power in that dynamic? What if she was a 8 in looks but worked a walmart and he was a 5 in looks but was a CEO, would she compromise sexually, would he being willing to wait longer then?

    https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-tips-advice/how-do-i-let-a-guy-know-im-interested-if-i-dont-kiss-until-the-3rd-date/

    1. 29.1
      Stacy

      Adrian,

      I think it depends on what the 5 vs the 7 values. In general, I think men (in the beginning anyway) tend to put a higher value on looks   (not that women don’t also see looks as high value, but a woman would more often than a man, give a guy a chance who treats her well and may allow attraction to ‘grow’). So if the 5 considers finances a priority, she will still see the 7 in looks as a lower average.

      On the other hand, she may put the CEO as a 9 even if his looks are objectively a 5. My point is, looks are only one aspect-although a powerful one, it’s certainly far from the only thing that is taken into consideration.Personally, as long as the man is gainfully employed, it’s not an issue for me.BUT as non materialistic as I am, I probably won’t entertain a man working at Walmart at this point in my life (I am in my 30s) no matter his looks…Just being honest.

    2. 29.2
      Adreana

      Adrian,

      Very interesting! But what if both the man and woman are 8 lookwise, and both have equally decent careers?   On an emotional level, I say the person with the most power is the one who isn’t afraid of walking away.

      1. 29.2.1
        Stacy

        Adreana,

        No matter the ‘number’ (whether an 8, a 5, etc.) the person with the most ‘power’ (I still shudder a little when I use that word to illustrate a relationship dynamic) will always be the person who isn’t afraid to walk away.

        But I would argue that if you aren’t afraid to walk away in any relationship for whatever reason, you were settling in the first place.

        And the person who isn’t afraid to walk away is usually the one who has more options and has invested less.

        1. Adreana

          You have a point, but for me I don’t necessarily see it as settling for less in the 1st   place. You can very attracted to the person and have feelings for them, but if you’re not happy ( and they aren’t willing to try) you have to the strength to walk away. Yes it hurts, but it opens up the possibility of meeting someone more compatible.   I agree that having other options helps immensley.

          I cringe at the word “power”  too, but unfortunately that’s often the way it is when dating someone new. Even in group situations with friends or amongst coworkers, there is always going to be that person who leads the group and gets their way, while the others nod their heads and go along to get along.

        2. Adreana

          and btw, I don’t   believe the better looking or richer person automatically has the “power”- it all comes down to confidence and how willing you are to find what you want.

        3. Adrian

          Hi Stacy,

          I agree with you 100%. It is not as romantic or even as nice as we all would like it to be, in context to a relationship, the person not as attached to a person who is attached has the power.

      2. 29.2.2
        Stacy

        Adreana,

        This comment is addressing your comment in response to mine below..

        But that’s the point, if you are not happy and you stayed, you WOULD be settling…so no matter how you slice it, if it’s easy to walk away or you have no qualms about leaving, then I think there is something about that relationship that does not inspire you enough to fight for it, hence, you would be settling otherwise.

        I think that’s the point of marriage (or at least the way it’s supposed to be)   where ideally you have found the person you can’t just walk away from.

        1. Karmic Equation

          A person should ALWAYS walk away from what they consider “bad conduct” (cheating, lying, abuse); bad manners, bad breath, bad wardrobe decisions, those are negotiable.

          Having power in a relationship doesn’t mean power over the other person, but rather power over one’s self while in a relationship. So being empowered in a relationship is not about options (or lack thereof), it’s about the individual’s ability to make a sound decision independent of their feelings.

          For example, if a person stays in a relationship with a verbal or physical abuser or alcoholic or with an incompatible person out of fear of not finding another person or out of fear of perceived as a failure, that person has disempowered him/herself. Because that person is allowing fear to make their relationship decision.

          Obviously, there are legitimate physical safety reasons for an abused person to stay in a physically abusive relationship (until they can leave it safely)…But other than that, women or men who stay in unhealthy relationships because “they just can’t walk away” from that person doesn’t mean that person is one’s soulmate.

          People have to remember that one of the requirements for being a person’s soulmate should be respect and a genuine aversion to treating their partner poorly.

          That said, people change as they age. Growing apart is sometimes an outcome. One person grows and the other stays the same. People who end relationships because of that aren’t doing it because of power. It’s because one or both parties are no longer the same person they started the relationship as. It’s not fair to ask the person who didn’t want to grow to grow to keep the relationship, any more than it is for the person who didn’t grow during the relationship to ask the other person to go back to being who they used to be.

          If a compromise can’t be made by accepting the partner as they have become (of have always been), then the only good outcome is to end it. “Fighting for” the other to change or to change back is to exercise the wrong kind of power, imo.

           

        2. Adreana

          “it’s about the individual’s ability to make a sound decision independent of their feelings”.

          Yes. Exactly.

        3. Stacy2

          So being empowered in a relationship is not about options (or lack thereof), it’s about the individual’s ability to make a sound decision independent of their feelings.

          I may print it and put it on my fridge. Well said KE!

           

        4. toddinhb

          This last comment about options reminded me of a Chris Rock bit when he says that a man is only as faithful as his options.

          BTW, this is turning into an epic thread!

    3. 29.3
      Emily, the original

      Adrian … Adrian … Oh, Adrian,

      A woman who is a 5 dating a man who is a 7-7.5 will be most likely be okay to give the man sex earlier if he demanded it. Thought to be honest, I am still having trouble understanding the looks verse success thing in regards to female attraction (sorry Karmic Equation).

      Can we please dispense with the numbers system? I think it’s distasteful, but I know a lot of people disagree. Just my opinion   …   but yuck.

      Secondly, you seem to think that attraction/interest can be reduced to some magic formula, so that why a woman finds one man appealing and not another will make sense. But attraction/interest is valued differently and defined differently by each person.

      1.) Some women will only date men who are aesthetically very good-looking. They will also only be attracted to those men.

      2.) Some women will only date men who are very successful. Maybe she looks at dating very practically and knows she wants to be lead a certain kind of life.

      3.) Some women will “give a guy a chance” who she initially feels lukewarm about if he keeps showing up and doesn’t set off any red flags. Or he’s got a good job and checks of some of the “must haves” on her list. The attraction will grow.

      4.) Some women will weigh attraction with compatibility in terms of shared interests and values.

      5.) Some women want to feel a powerful, intense physical attraction right off the bat and will reject anyone who doesn’t give her that feeling. And–READ THIS CAREFULLY–she may get that feeling from a 5 and not a 9. In other words, the 5 may wake up her who-ha, while the 9 puts it to sleep. AttracTION. AttracTIVENESS. Two different things for some people.

      1. 29.3.1
        Karmic Equation

        Numbers are just a shorthand to describe physical attractiveness, not all the intangibles that go into “attraction.”

        While YOUR 10 may be different than MY 10, we both have people we view as 10s 🙂 — And we all  have people whom we view as 5s.

        So Adrian’s question can be answered by any  person who understands relative comparisons, even using their own personal standard.

        For example, lookswise, I think Pierce Brosnan, Chris Hemsworth, and Gerard Butler are all  10s, but they are obviously handsome in very different ways. However, I think Bill Gates is  “below average”  and  Mike Zuckerberg is “average”. Other women may believe the opposite. That’s ok.

        When Adrian and I ask or answer questions based on a person’s number, it assumes that the person uses their personal scale.

        And Adrian’s dilemma is that, as a man, it just does not compute for him how something that is not physically attractive, e.g., money or success, can make a man more attractive to women, since men ONLY rate on the physical (well, they do have a crazy scale, but crazy rating is independent of the physical and doesn’t increase or decrease a woman’s physical rating). The crazy rating DOES affect her relationship value though.

        Hey, maybe I’m onto something here, Adrian.

        Maybe that’s the answer. While a woman’s “craziness” rating may not affect how a man rates her physically, her craziness rating may affect his consideration of her as a long-term mate. For example, while most might be fine with a 10, crazy woman being his girlfriend (think stripper), but if he wants children someday, he may not ever consider marrying her since he doesn’t want a crazy wife or a crazy woman to be the mother of his children.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          KE,

          After years of careful observation, I have concluded that when it comes to initially evaluating women, men have both a “Hotness” scale and a “Crazy” scale.   In general the more hot the woman is, the more crazy they will overlook or tolerate.

          When my older son was a senior in high school, he dated a crazy girl.   She was cute and thin, but not a 9 or 10.   They did a lot of stupid stuff together like ditching class and wild partying.   The girl’s mother was certifiable.   Those were not fun months when I learned that apparently a moderate amount of hot makes up for a crap load of crazy,

          My brother had a several year live in relationship with his nut job. She had a plain face, but a decent figure.   Shockingly (not) she also had a crazy mother.   For some reason she rated high on my brother’s hot scale so the crazy, along with a big dose of stupid, were excused.   If I had the proverbial dime for every time a family member or close friend of his said, “I don’t know what he sees in her,” I’d be rich.

          I’ve talked to both guys about those women, now safely years in the past.   They both self-rated their ex-girlfriends as having been extremely hot when they met them.   They overlooked bad behavior and signs of instability, and in my brother’s exes case, a total lack of common sense, because they were so thrilled to be with a hot woman.   It was a big learning experience for both of them.!

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          I should add:

          Both my son and brother said that at the time the relationships started, if they had the women lower on the hotness scale, they would have walked away once signs of craziness started emerging.

        3. Karmic Equation

          Hi GWTF,

          I was educated in that hot/crazy scale by this hilarious, and right on the money, video. LMAO

          The Hot/Crazy Matrix video

          All women should aim to become the Unicorn.

          However, if she knows she’s crazy, she’s got to become hot enough to offset it. lol

           

        4. Christine

          Do you think that’s the case for all men, or just younger ones–in willing to tolerate a ton of crazy for “hot”?

          I recall that in some comment somewhere, Evan stated that at a certain age, men want “easy” (or something to that effect–correct me if I’m misquoting you Evan).

          I wonder if that’s true, that after going through so many drama queens (and with age), men burn out from drama.

          Just anecdotally, my guy (early 40s), my brother-in-law (also early 40s) and my male friends (in their 30s) all dated “hot but crazy” women before.   However, I notice that these relationships occurred when they were younger, in their 20s to early 30s–but not in their more recent years.   In fact, my guy still marvels at how “easy” our relationship is and really appreciates it.

        5. Adrian

          Hi Karmic Equation,

          I completely agree with how we use numbers. Outside of physical attractiveness, it is useless (maybe that is why more men use it).

          And you are right, I am still struggling to understand the why women who are 7s and above would date a rich 5.

          …      …    …

          Yup! All men I know would sleep with a woman who is crazy but hot in a heartbeat (yes men would sleep with a unattractive women in a heartbeat also, but he wouldn’t be seen in public with her), but the higher her craziness level, the lower the chance he would officially date or commit to her.

        6. Karmic Equation

          Christine wrote:

          Do you think that’s the case for all men, or just younger ones—in willing to tolerate a ton of crazy for “hot”?

          Well, my un-politically correct hypothesis is that most hot women in their 20s are crazy. Because they can get away with it.

          If your guy and male friends and in-laws, now in their 40s, were still dating women in their 20s, you could say they’re willing to tolerate their crazy because they’re still infatuated with the kind of hotness only 20-somethings can provide.

          Even though many women in their 30s and 40s can be hot, they’re not as hot as they were in their 20s (excepting yours truly, lol. I was never ever ever called hot by anyone when I was in my 20s, but a lot men my age and older call me hot now, go figure).

          And I think some to a lot of craziness in women disappear when she ages/matures. A lot of craziness in women are brought about by insecurities. So as she ages, she either grows out of them or makes peace with them, and thus becomes less crazy.

          However, a woman in her 40s who’s not aging gracefully, and/or not gracefully accepting that she’s aging and no longer able to “control” men as she used to be able to control them when  she was able to in her 20s–she’s probably going to be the kind of crazy that men in their 40s avoid. She’s not hot enough to justify her crazy.  In other words, if men in their 40s wanted to deal with a woman’s crazy, he’d date a 20 yo hot/crazy, not a 40 yo not-as-hot/but just as crazy.

          In other words, all crazy being equal, date the younger crazy. lol

        7. Adrian

          Hi Christine,

          It could also be that as men age their sexual market value goes down. A man who could get the hot woman in his 20s now struggles to get a hot women in his 40s.

          So maybe as men age they become more realistic about the level of woman they can attract, plus most men don’t want to date crazy long term, just sleep with them. So maybe as guys age, they looking for more long-term women.

        8. Emily, the original

          KE,

          They overlooked bad behavior and signs of instability, and in my brother’s exes case, a total lack of common sense, because they were so thrilled to be with a hot woman.   It was a big learning experience for both of them.!

          But that ‘s my whole point. You described the woman your brother thought was hot as very average. But something about her lit him up. AND IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HER NUMBER. He felt something for her and he went for it. He didn’t analyze and dissect it to death and determine she was a 5 but .. wait … she has a good-paying job so that makes her a 6 … but wait … she has a kid so she’s really a 5.15 …

        9. Emily, the original

          Sorry. Meant that for GoWiththeFlow

        10. Emily, the original

          Christine,

          Do you think that’s the case for all men, or just younger ones—in willing to tolerate a ton of crazy for “hot”?

          The hot + crazy mix is supposed to be great in bed. There’s a whole 30 Rock episode dedicated to it.

        11. GoWiththeFlow

          Christine,

          I think younger men are more susceptible to excusing the crazy for hot dynamic.   Then they get burned and start modifying behavior. Usually in, she’s hot!   But I’m not going to lose my head or my heart until I see proof of saneness.

          Interestingly, my son’s subsequent long term girlfriend was not as pretty at the crazy one.   My son had friends comment to him that basically he was dating below himself in the looks department.   But he told me she was fun and sweet, and had a life plan (not just a plan to party).

          my brother is in his mid 40s and has been with his fiancé for about 3 years.   He has retained a higher SMV than his peers because he takes care of himself (6 pack abs) dresses well, has a really cool high paying job, and he’s financially stable.   His fiancé is 12 years younger than him is pretty and has a body to die for.   She would be a catch to guys her own age but she’s with my brother because she’s an old soul and doesn’t want kids so they align well.   She is better looking than the nut job.   I think my brother had low self esteem when he was with the crazy girl.   That relationship did a number on his head, and it took awhile for him to recover.   He was always cautious about crazy afterwards.

          Just a note on crazy:   Some people may be clinically crazy.   If you are involved with someone crazy, they may have untreated bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, or they could be sociopaths.   Cross cultural incidence of sociopaths is that they make up 2% of the population.   Not sure of the statistics on the others, but the idea is that some unsuspecting sane person is out on a date with a crazy one right now.   Borderline women have a tendency to get into relationships with narcissistic men, so at least that’s two crazies removing themselves from the dating pool.

          There’s an excellent book on everyday sociopaths by Martha Stoudt called The Sociopath Next Door.   It’s an eye opening short read, and it will recognize people you know!

        12. Karmic Equation

          GWTF’s brother was rating on HIS subjective scale. She was HIS type of hot, but other people didn’t see it on the objective scale.

          When I first met my bf, he told me about the crazy stuff his ex did. He kind of unloaded the first night we slept together. Some women would have been turned off by this. But I saw it as something he had kept bottled up for a long time and couldn’t tell other people, and he was relieved to finally tell someone of his ordeal.

          At the end of his unloading, I asked in a puzzled way. “Yeah that was pretty crazy behavior. The only way that it would make sense to me for you putting up with that kind of crazy is if she was really hot. Was she?”

          His reply was quite diplomatic, “To ME she was hot.” Which was an answer but not really an answer, right? But it pretty much aligns with what GWTF’s brother meant.

          BTW, I found out later from a mutual friend that my bf’s ex “looked like his sister.”  And just for clarity, I asked this mutual friend, “So, was she hot though?” He said, “No. Your bf as woman is not a good looking woman.”

          I  gave that friend a big kiss on the cheek.

        13. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          I think my assessment of my brother’s and son’s girlfriend’s hotness as being lower than the guys thought it was is because women judge looks more harshly than men do.

          Evan had a post about how OKCupid ran some data that showed women judged 80% of men to be below average in looks where men accurately assessed women’s looks.   I often tell men that the multi-billon dollar cosmetics and fashio industries are evidence of women trying to meet men’s beauty expectations.   The men usually counter that by saying that they don’t require all of the makeup and high fashion to find women attractive (they actually would like less makeup, and don’t give a damn about purses).   They say that’s what women do to impress other women.

          I think that people, in general, have universal beauty concepts, but they also have individual preferences.   Virtually all people would say that Beyoncé, Jennifer Lawrence, and Adriana Lima are extremely attractive.   But I think most men would prefer one over the other two with the caveat that they wouldn’t turn any of them down, LOL.

          As far as numbers go, for both my brother and my son, their girlfriend’s looks fell into their preferences, so while I (in my overly judgemental way) would say my brother’s ex was a 6, to him she was an 8+ because he has a preference for her body type and likes women with long hair who use minimal makeup.   It’s the whole love map concept.   But, now way in hell did my brother say she was a 6, but he was giving her extra personality or job points.

        14. Christine

          Thanks everyone for your responses!   I was just wondering about that, and you all have given me a lot of food for thought.   I think it may be some combination of all of these things. I personally (foolishly) went for hot bad boys when I was younger, but really did grow out of it when I got burned one too many times.   I like to think that with more life experience and maturity, people (both men and women) tend to learn that no amount of hot can compensate for crazy!   (at least not for anything long term)

          GoWithTheFlow, you’re preaching to the choir–I’ve read that book and it’s excellent!

           

        15. Emily, the original

          GoWithTheFlow,

          As far as numbers go, for both my brother and my son, their girlfriend’s looks fell into their preferences, so while I (in my overly judgmental way) would say my brother’s ex was a 6, to him she was an 8+

          But is that how went around thinking about her? I have never in my life meet someone I was interested in and thought, “Wow, he is sold 8.2!”

        16. Emily, the original

          Not “sold” but “solid”

        17. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          Guys rate girls on looks almost instantaneously.   It’s hard wired in to them or very strong very early socialization.

          I think you are falling into the trap where you have certain thought and behavioral patterns and want to assume others process and gather information and express it the same way you do.   So while you don’t make snap SMV decisions about men based on only one parameter, looks, most men do.

        18. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          When I first met my bf, he told me about the crazy stuff his ex did.   …   At the end of his unloading, I asked in a puzzled way. “Yeah that was pretty crazy behavior. The only way that it would make sense to me for you putting up with that kind of crazy is if she was really hot. Was she?”

          The problem with these kinds of crazy relationships is that they tend to hang in one’s psyche. Not because they are good or healthy but because they are intense or press all one’s psychological buttons. Most people grow up a bit and move on to something … I don’t want to say less exciting … but more adult.

        19. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow

          Guys rate girls on looks almost instantaneously.

          Yeah, I get that, and some women rate men on looks instantaneously, too. My point was that someone’s “objective” rating or SMV or rank in terms of how aesthetically attractive he/she is is only a small part of what makes up physical attraction. Physical attraction is an energy, a feeling, how drawn to someone you feel, and if people were only attracted to those who placed highest on the objective scale, the human race would die out.

        20. Caroline

          Ladies and Mr. Adrian- I really enjoyed all the input you’ve given especially the crazy hot scale:)

          @Christine- about the men wanting easier relationships as they age. It could be that as women age they finally assert what they want and need. I read somewhere that many ladies don’t know themselves and try to be the “perfect” girl in order to attract a man. She doesn’t speak up when something bothers her that her guy does or tells him what she really wants so as not to “rock the boat”. This ultimately ends up in bitterness and frustration so she blows up at him- labeling her as crazy. So many young girls are furiously trying to be something theyre not.

          Btw-my youngest has dated more than one hot/crazy girl. I cracked up when gwtf mentioned the crazy mom. My son’s crazy girlfriend came over in the wee hours of the morning to break up with him. She had put all the little mementos she had collected from their dating (ticket stubs, stuffed teddy bear, a pressed rose, etc) into a garbage bag. She rang the doorbell and I shuffled to the door in my robe half awake to have her storm in and throw it all at him in bed. It was so weird- I looked out the front door and saw her mother waiting for her behind the steering wheel. I asked his girlfriend why her mom had driven her incredulously- she answered because it was after 12 (driving restriction in our state when you’re 16). ?!?! What kinda parent helps with such craziness? Our whole family had to block her telephone number. My other son half kids that she and her family ought to have a reality show.

        21. Caroline

          I didn’t explain that well. I think women can be taught to be too amenable. I thought it was just those of us “older” ladies and our religious upbringing but it may still be pretty prevalent today.

        22. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          I agree with Theo and Caroline that the human race doesn’t die out because, outside of a desire to get physical with the most attractive people that we can, we have a concurrent drive to pair bond.   At some point, after dealing with the reality (for most of us 6.5 and below) that we’re NOT getting the highly desireables of the opposite sex, we adjust our expectations.   Looks are going to fade, and it’s the shared experiences and companionate love that glue people together into their old age.

          Doesn’t mean we go blind 😉    I still think Kit Harington, Sebastian Stan, and someone more age appropriate, Hugh Jackman, are super hot, but they’re fantasy.   Even the more real men around me that are 8s and above I disregard as potential partners.   Most 7s, too. I learned in high school (and relearned in my early 30s) that those men have so many women in their orbit, that just on the #s/probability line, it’s a waste of time.   It’s more fun to be with someone where there is reciprocal attraction.   It’s along the lines of a bird in the hand being worth more than two in a tree.

          @ Caroline,

          OMG on the mom enabling her daughter’s drama.   No way would I ever do that!

          I think the mom of my son’s crazy ex was a borderline personality (which is why I mentioned the clinically crazy stuff).   Her daughter was likely a BPD in training.

          My son was held back a year in elementary school, so he was an 18 year old senior.   The girl was a 15-16 year old sophomore.   Her mom would do stuff like call me if my son was 5 minutes late dropping her off at home and say, “I could have your son arrested right now.”

          Her repeated threats were scary enough that I asked our family attorney about it.   He assured me that our state law for statutory rape (yes, I assumed they were doing the deed) or contributing to a minor’s delinquency had a 3 year age span exemption for teens as well as a “close association” clause, that basically would cover him since he was a classmate of hers.   I certainly never wanted to test how those laws get applied IRL!   The day they broke up was a really good day for our family.

        23. GoWiththeFlow

          KK & Tom10,

          While I think some things like money and social status may compensate for less than great looks in a man, this can be very limited.

          Usually when people give an example where an old ugly guy winds up with a young gorgeous woman, the man is a rich celebrity or business tycoon.   They have an extreme amount of wealth and social cred that is way beyond what the masses will ever have, so I don’t think their experience is easily extropolated down to the more numerous “every day” high value men who have 6 figure jobs.

          Past a certain age, most single women can support themselves at a comfortable level.   Even if they’re not getting rich,   a future husband’s salary isn’t the only determining factor in what the couple’s financial status will be.   A man’s salary can’t compensate for physical attractiveness like it could 60-70 years ago.

          Also, compared to 60-70 years ago, women are putting a higher priority on sexual compatability, of which attraction to a partner is a key component.

          Not many highly attractive women with $65,000/year salaries are going to choose a much older, chubby plain guy with a $150,000 salary over a similar age, fit attractive man with a $72,0000 salary.

        24. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          It’s a hazard of life that people you don’t find attractive will be attracted to you 😉   It happens to all of us.   When I was in my mid-30s two different men in their mid to late 50s, who looked older than their age (one with a ginormous pot belly) with tons of personal baggage were interested in me.   Nope, nope, nope.

          Once you get past a certain age, you no longer are surrounded by single people and have to be creative and proactive to increase your chances of finding someone.   And you still may not meet anyone.

          It can be hard out there and you aren’t alone.   Christine, KArmic, SMC, and Sparkling Emerald all met someone despite the limitations of a small pool of potential partners.   I look to them for inspiration 🙂

        25. SparklingEmerald

          GWTF said somewhere in this long sub thread

          “It can be hard out there and you aren’t alone.   Christine, KArmic, SMC, and Sparkling Emerald all met someone despite the limitations of a small pool of potential partners.   I look to them for inspiration ”

          Hi Go with the Flow – Now that I am happily engaged,   I don’t come around this board much., but I do occasionally lurk here, or get an e-mail from this blog.   When ever I see a kind remark or sincere question thrown my way, I will respond though.

          I am glad you have found some inspiration in my comments.   I guess I am just a hopeless romantic, and I would like to see everyone in the whole world happily in love,   in truly wonderful relationships.   It makes me happy to hear that something   I shared here gives someone hope and inspiration.

          I was only looking for a boyfriend to fall in love with.   I went back and forth on marriage being out of the question, to marriage being a possible option but not a necessity.   I met the most wonderful man a year and a half ago, at age 59.     Much to my surprise and delight, we will be getting married early next year.   We have a very happy relationship, we treat each other well, and I just feel so cherished with him.   Now I can’t imagine my life without him, and I just want to spend the rest of my life making him as happy as he made me.

          So if a 61 year old, twice divorced woman, can look for a boyfriend and end up finding a husband than I guess anything is possible.   The search for the “needle in a haystack” can be tiresome and frustrating process, that’s for sure, but once you find that needle, it makes it all worthwhile.

        26. Evan Marc Katz

          Congratulations! That’s amazing news! We’ve been through a lot together, so I take a personal interest in your success. If you go back and look at your early posts, you will hear a VERY different woman than the one who is writing this today – much more cynical and quick to anger at me. I couldn’t be more thrilled that one of my most loyal readers/customers found a husband after so much trial and error. Mazel tov.

        27. GoWiththeFlow

          Sparkling Emerald,

          Congratulations!   I hope you and your hubby to be have many happy years together.

          BTW, I suspect we may live nearby.   I’m in the Phoenix area.

          I dropped out of the dating scene several years ago.   I was beyond frustrated and needed a break.   If someone would ask me why I’m not married, I would say, “When men look for a wife I’m not what they have in mind.”

          About a year ago, I decided than I didn’t want to give up on finding someone.   And frankly, I really miss sex 😉   In the meantime I wound up in discussions with my nieces and friends’ daughters, all in their 20s, and would advise them to get out of dead end relationships and dump men who mistreated them so they could find the right guy while they are still young and have lots of options.

          Among other sources on the Internet, I found Evan’s blog, and his is the one I keep   coming back to.   I’m in the crawl stage and have to learn to walk and then run.   Right now I want to date with the goal of having a nice boyfriend.   It’s very nice to hear that someone once had the same goals, met and even surpassed them!

        28. SparklingEmerald

          Thanks Evan ! 🙂

           

        29. GoWiththeFlow

          Evan,

          Just finished registration 🙂

        30. SparklingEmerald

          GoWiththeFlow said ”Sparkling Emerald, Congratulations!   I hope you and your hubby to be have many happy years together.”

          ___________________________________________

          Thank you too GWTF.   Have fun at Love U, hope you graduate with flying colors, a revived love life, and who knows, maybe even your M.R.S. degree.

      2. 29.3.2
        Adrian

        Hi Emily,

        Karmic Equation explained it best. Numbers just help us visualize. Plus humans like to brag. Maybe women can brag and say I am dating a doctor who graduated from Harvard and it would impress other women, but for all the men I know that would mean nothing.

        If I said I am dating a woman who is a 9! Guys wouldn’t care if she worked as a street sweeper, she is HOT!

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          The majority of people pair up with people who are similar in levels of attractiveness, near the same age, and have similar levels of education and social standing.   Assortive mating is the norm.   If you are seeing a very ugly man with a very beautiful woman, it may be an exchange of beauty for looks and status.   I would propose that the reason you notice it is because it does not happen very often.

        2. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          If I said I am dating a woman who is a 9! Guys wouldn’t care if she worked as a street sweeper, she is HOT!

          Screw all that. Screw what your friends think and what society tells you is the right woman for you to date. You write a lot about how you go on dates with women who feel an attraction for you but the feeling is not mutual on your part. So find the woman who makes race cars burn rubber in your pants! (To borrow a Prince line). Then all this numbers crap won’t mean diddly …

        3. Adrian

          Hi GoWithTheFlow,

          When you mentioned you spilled sprite on your laptop it reminded me of the time mine fell into the bathroom sink under running water (I like to listen to music as I brush my teeth). I hate writing or typing on cell phones, so I feel your pain.

          …         …         …

          Do you think people in dating don’t see their own flaws or are just so use to getting attention from the opposite sex that they don’t see their flaws as a deal breaker?

          …    …    …

          In response to your other comment, why do you think women continue to date guys who are selfish in bed? After giving a guy oral sex, he fails to reciprocate, you talk to him about it. If he does it again, why not just dump him?

          Do you believe it is because society looks down upon women who dump “great” boyfriends whose only flaw is that they are bad in bed? Or do you believe it is because these women are victims of the scarcity mentality; they don’t believe they will find better.

           

          I remember a guy (he was the stereotypical popular frat boy jock with a lot of girls attracted to him) who once had a very attractive girl that was really into him, they had finally had sex and then he dumped her. When I asked why he said because she was a dead fish in bed. He did all the work and she just laid their receiving.

          I think people with lots of options don’t feel the need to wait for a partner to get better sexually when they can find someone new easier. I also believe that was the point of this podcast, if you are dating someone with many options, how long do women think he will wait before he gets tired of doing all the giving?

           

        4. CaliforniaGirl

          Women who stay with guys who are bad in bed, stay with them for other and usually materialistic reasons. Or she doesn’t care about sex and doesn’t enjoy it. That’s it. No other reasons.

           

        5. Caroline

          Adrian- I think Theo explained it best in an earlier comment. I think most of us learn with each relationship and it unfolds unnaturally. I think we instinctively know / are attracted to those with similar level of attractiveness and then our mutual upbringing, values, education cement it. It’s really easy to over think it when you’re online dating. It may just be seemingly “limitless” possibilities or the fact that most folks of course put their best pic up online and them not turning up resembling it. When you meet in person, it’s incredible how we are able to assess body language, openness, personality pretty quickly. Having a guy walk over and introduce himself is so powerful. You’ve pretty much passed the physical test if he’s done that. It’s so much easier to talk, open up and flirt. There’s so much pressure you’re gonna somehow disappoint when you first go offline.

        6. Tom10

           
          @ Caroline
           
          “I think we instinctively know / are attracted to those with similar level of attractiveness and then our mutual upbringing, values, education cement”
           
            
           
          I totally disagree Caroline; I think we all want a higher level attractiveness than ourselves, but life soon puts us in our place and forces us to be more realistic.
           
            
           
          For women read Christine’s comment above:
           
          “I personally (foolishly) went for hot bad boys when I was younger, but really did grow out of it when I got burned one too many times.”
           
            
           
          And for men, well, women who consider themselves more attractive than us won’t sleep with us. Therefore, we can either pine away for the hot women who won’t sleep with us, or we can focus on the women who will sleep with us.
           
            
           
          Of course, many people refuse to accept this reality, and many of those post on this blog!

        7. KK

          I disagree, Tom10. A man that has any number of things going for him can easily get a woman who is more attractive than he is.

        8. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          I think people don’t appreciate the extent of their flaws and the fact that they get some takers in the dating market keeps them in denial.   These takers don’t consider the flaw a deal killer even though a majority of people would.   For instance in Z’s case, her quickness to snap at things lost her guys.   Then she had a few takers that didn’t see that a a big deal.   But when a big eruption happened, and Z didn’t see where her “temper” was a serious issues because she had guys who accepted the milder form of it.

          Z is an extreme case.   I think the way it plays out in most people is that if they get a few boyfriends/girlfriends who deal with their   flaw–the quick temper–so they don’t realize many more are walking away because of it.   If they honestly assessed and dealt with their flaw, they would potentially get and keep many more partners.

          ________________________________

          As far as grown women putting up with lazy lovers who don’t reciprocate pleasure, I think it has to do with girls being conditioned to be pleasers when they first become sexually active.

          In my generation of women (coming of age in the mid to late 1980s) it was a common experience to be making out with a guy and then a hand would appear on the back of your head or neck and your head would wind up near the guy’s crotch.   I don’t know of any teen girl or young woman who similarity would guide a guy’s head down between her legs in that way.   A pretty blunt nonverbal,   “hey do this for me.”

          Almost always, girls wind up giving blow jobs before a guy ever goes down on them.   It sounds like this imbalance has gotten way worse sinceI was young.   My son is in his early 30s and said he has had twice as many blow job only partners as the-whole-enchilada partners, with most of the BJ only experiences being in high school and college.

          In Girls & Sex, the book I mentioned previously,   Orenstein theorizes that the number of teens engaging in intercourse (and resultant teen pregnancies) are going down because girls are blowing guys instead.   In interviews with young women, the girls said they were doing this to “improve the relationship” and because it was expected of them.   The dynamic they are learning is to please the guys first and then maybe they will please you.   Our atrocious shame based, plumbing lessons that we call sex education also doesn’t do anything to teach girls that sex can be mutually satisfying and that they deserve physical pleasure as well.

          Luckily young men grow and learn and the adult sex most women get is very pleasurable and satisfying.   But those, please him fist lessons and expectations can still be in place, and if other parts of a relationship are good enough, a woman will deal with a more guy sided sex life since it’s not an unfamiliar dynamic.

        9. Karmic Equation

          Emily wrote:

          “Screw all that. Screw what your friends think and what society tells you is the right woman for you to date.”

          I believe women suffer from this kind of peer pressure more than men. Men date whom they find attractive. Women date for a lot of other reasons, of which attractiveness is only one factor.

          Getting back to the numbers scale…

          I think the scale serves a useful purpose for women, if she’s self-aware…in that if she is very honest about her objective rating in men’s eyes, it’s more difficult for men to “use” her.

          What I mean by this is…

          Let’s say a woman is objectively a “5” but she believes she’s objectively an “8” — this woman is going to get burned by 8 and above guys whom she might manage to date.

          If we agree that most people want to date above their own league, and that most men will “slum” and sleep with, but rarely, if ever, commit to, a woman lower than his league, then this “5” woman is going to get pumped and dumped and get hurt quite often by the 8’s she manages to date.

          Now if this 5 woman knows she’s a 5, then when an 8 approaches her (or more likely when she approaches the 8), she knows she’s trying to punch above her weight class and that anything that results will not likely last. If she’s a confident 5,  she knows before she does the deed that that no relationship will be the result, and she can make a rational decision if she wants to have sex or not with the 8 when he makes his move. But a 5 woman who deludes herself into believing she’s an 8, that woman is going to get hurt, embittered, etc., when things don’t work out.

          I’m not saying this to diss women. But I believe if women are unflinchingly honest with themselves about their objective rating, they will better understand dating and sex and the possible outcomes for sleeping with a man “above her league”. Additionally, once she accepts her objective rating, then instead of turning down dates with men in her own league, she might actually accept them…and be less likely to get hurt or used in the process…and more likely to find lasting love.

          In other words, she should proactively try to assortatively mate, instead being forced to do so because of  bad dating outcomes. And knowing and accepting one’s objective rating facilitates assortative mating, imo.

           

        10. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow,

          At some point, after dealing with the reality (for most of us 6.5 and below) that we’re NOT getting the highly desireables of the opposite sex, we adjust our expectations.   

          Idk. Maybe I’m naive or a romantic or in denial or have unknowingly been practicing assortative mating, but I can think of 3 guys I spent time with who I was extremely attracted to, and I didn’t think of them as an adjustment to my expectations even though, for the most part, they were average to slightly above average looking. I’m not crazy. I’m not waiting for Johnny Depp to show up, but I don’t spend time with someone I am not really into.

          But I met those guys at 25, 28 and 34. One of the problems I’m having now that I am in my mid-40s is that a major compromise would be necessary if I accepted dates with the men who have recently asked me out. I’m talking about men 3 times my size. Or men who still live at home with their mothers.  

          It’s along the lines of a bird in the hand being worth more than two in a tree.

          I will have to respectfully disagree. I would rather go without.

        11. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          In other words, she should proactively try to assortatively mate, instead being forced to do so because of  bad dating outcomes. And knowing and accepting one’s objective rating facilitates assortative mating, imo.

          I think another factor may be one’s environment. I live in a small time, and the pickins are slim. Sometimes (and I don’t mean for this to sound bitchy) the options are so bad, the only choice is not to choose. And then I guess the next step would be to get more proactive to locate more options.

           

        12. Caroline

          Hi Tom10-thAnks for the reply:).   I do believe you can be temporarily blinded at different times in your life so to speak.Christine noted that it was a journey and she learned the payoff to dating those hot guys wasn’t the relationship she desired. I think when one gets back into the dating pool after a divirce/breakup you can waaayy overestimate your smv .    I think the mere fact that some of us are on the blog points to the likelihood we may have experienced this. Not an insult- hey we are all on our own an little journey trying to learn:).   What I was referring to was the successfully married/long term relationships I know- the couples match. Look in the engagement announcements in the Sunday paper; rarely do you see a couple where their relative attractiveness is greatly separated by this scale of 1-10.   Also, I’ve been a little caught off guard when a guy has approached me who significantly more attractive. This happened to me in high school and I felt like I was being “punked”! Undoubtedly my insecurity showing. Which according to Evan’s little test; a good number of we ladies weren’t too confident at times in our lives. It’s not that I doubt that people overestimate their smv- in fact most of y s think we are 7s according to a study I’ve seen. I think it’s more what about who you in reality pair yourself off with.

        13. Karmic Equation

          Hi Emily,

          Yeah, if you live in a small town, then could definitely decrease your options.

          If you can’t (or won’t) move, you need to increase the distance you’re willing travel to date/have relationship…and hope that he is willing to do the same for a relationship. Men might travel a bit for dates and potential action. But one he’s gotten the action, the LDR thing may become his excuse to end (or not begin) a relationship.

        14. Christine

          Emily, just to give you some encouragement–I found love in a small town!   I know what you mean about the pickings being slim.   Hey, I live in a town where most people seem to be married (and somehow found a single guy compatible with me).   But just remember that you only need one (unless you want a whole harem of men LOL) Surely there might be one guy out there you might like.

          There are both advantages and downsides to small town dating.   On one hand, you do tend to have less selection, as you already know.   On the other hand, you will also have less competition as well.

          I know some people who moved to a large city, in part, to find love.   However, dating isn’t so easy in large cities either.   I’ve heard the competition can be fierce.   In fact, those people warned me to only move because I really liked the city itself (i.e. for its great restaurants, culture, etc.)–but not specifically to find love.   In hindsight, I’m glad I didn’t move because my love turned out to live in my town, just ten minutes away from me.

          If the pickings really are that slim it might be worth your while to move–but just be aware that big cities don’t guarantee love either.   Unfortunately, dating is just tough everywhere

        15. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow: Once you get past a certain age, you no longer are surrounded by single people and have to be creative and proactive to increase your chances of finding someone.

          Agreed. I have to get my butt out of the house more.

          GoWiththeFlow: It’s a hazard of life that people you don’t find attractive will be attracted to you    

          I don’t mind being approached and I try to be pleasant, but ONE attempt by a man to make his interest known should be enough, right? I don’t need pick up lines thrown out at me four or fives times in a short conversation if I don’t respond to the initial one. I want to say, “I got it the FIRST time, dude.”

           

          Karmic Equation: Yeah, if you live in a small town, then could definitely decrease your options.

          I am looking for a job and, so far, most of what I have applied for is in fairly big cities, so that may change.

           

          Christine: Just to give you some encouragement—I found love in a small town!

          Congrats! I’m glad you met someone. A bigger town, as you pointed out, has more options, but then …. those options have more options!

           

      3. 29.3.3
        Christine

        Emily, thanks for that comment.   It helps explain why me and my guy both had a difficult time getting over some toxic exes before, even while knowing on a rational level that they were no good for us at all.   But we recognize now, how unhealthy those relationships were and are ready to move on to a healthier future with one another.

        Caroline, maybe that can be part of it too.   I know that I have a tendency to repress things too much, but really am working on it and am getting better at asserting my needs.   Repressing just builds up the frustration and then, you really WILL feel crazy later!

        1. Christine

          BTW, thanks Tom10.   I’ve learned the hard way that sometimes, even when we can be with someone “hotter” than us–that doesn’t always mean we should!   I can only speak for myself but the bad boys I dated before were only “hot” because all of their good qualities were only on the outside.

          Now, they’re just anecdotes I tell my guy, to let him know how young and foolish I once was…and how lucky he is to have met a (relatively) wiser version of me now. 🙂

           

      4. 29.3.4
        Adrian

        Hi Emily,

        Everyone else has already given good explanations of the numbers thing.

        I would just like to add that   if a man who was a 3 in looks saw a woman who was a 5 he would think she was the hottest thing! When he would tell this to his other male friend who is maybe a 7 in looks, the guy would look at him like he is crazy (I have witnessed this more times than you can believe).

         

        The point is, they both know she is no supermodel, but each person’s individual level of attractiveness plays a part as well. I think this may be another reason to account for why we see people who we consider averagely attractive with people whom we think aren’t as attractive.

        1. KK

          Hi Adrian,   I agree with you in theory, but I wonder how often it’s true in reality. For instance, I don’t want to name names but… Obsidian (Lol) for example, has complained on here profusely about his low MV, yet insists he would rather be alone if he can’t get that elusive 9/10.

        2. Adrian

          Hi KK,

          You do realize that when you say certain names out loud those entities appear don’t you? (^_^)

          _____

          The one whose name you speak of is a rare case from my experience. Most people don’t like being alone, I believe that it was stated that “the person whom we shouldn’t mention” was about a 4 in looks, add in the fact that he is under 5’8 in height and he SMV goes down to about a 3.

          Most 3 would walk the 7 seas (or move to a 3rd world country) for a chance to date a quality 5 or 6 in looks.   Of course I do have a disclaimer. I know very little about MGTOW, red pills and the like, or their female equivalent.

          But I would guess that if you added the general bitterness of some of those men and women on top of their physical turn offs, their level would go down about a 1.

          I also think that because of all the media exposure, we focus too much on men and women who are 7 and above in looks. In real life, a banker who is a 3 in looks dating a woman who is an accountant and a 5 in looks happens often but is rarely spoken of because they are both below a 7.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          Their bitterness makes them undateable.   They’re no longer on the RMV scale because you can’t be on the scale when no one wants a relationship with you.

          The flip side would be a woman deemed unfu^€ £able.   She’s no longer on the SMV scale because no one wants sex from her.

          I am on single mom forums, and talk to many women thinking about giving up on ever getting married and going ahead with adopting or having kids on there own. By and large, they’ve dropped out of the dating world to focus on their kids.   They may have regrets about never getting married, but they are’t posting angry diatribes about how men suck and “the game” is rigged, and how men will be sorry for causing it to happen.

          Yet here, intermittently, we get posters who’s posts can be summarized as:   “Im going to leave if you women don’t shape up and unrig the game!   Really you women will be sorry when I’m gone!   Society will fail without me!   Anyone going to stop me?   I’m seriously going to leave now!

    4. 29.4
      Emily, the original

      Adrian,

      Conclusion: When you see a 9 woman with a 5 man, you can’t assume she’s made some kind of compromise and he must, for example, have money. She could be wildly attracted to him and getting the best sex of her life.

      1. 29.4.1
        Karmic Equation

        Of course she compromised, Emily. She traded in good looks for great sex.

        1. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          Of course she compromised, Emily. She traded in good looks for great sex.

          I don’t agree. She could think the 5 man was the cutest thing she’d seen in years and she could be really attracted to him, even if the outside world thought he was pretty average. She’s got a man she finds hot and the sex is great. How has she compromised?

        2. Karmic Equation

          Then the 5 man isn’t a 5 to that woman. He’s a 7 or whatever…to her.

          However, if you can concede that a “cute” guy to YOU but a “5” to the world may be cute to you, then you understand the rating system. lol

          Look at it this way, most German Shepherds are just majestically gorgeous dogs. Most Old English Bulldogs…are not. But OEB are definitely cute even though they can’t compare to the objective “handsomeness” of the GSD 🙂 In the attractiveness scale, a GSD would be 10, but the OEB probably a 5 or below. Doesn’t mean one can’t love the OEB.

          Nothing wrong with that.

        3. Karmic Equation

          Let’s argue a different way.

          Let’s say your 5 guy was awful in bed.

          Would you rather have an Adonis who was awful in bed or a 5 who was awful in bed?

          And if you had a choice, wouldn’t you rather have an Adonis who was great in bed, than a 5 who was great in bed?

          But YOUR Adonis may be a blonde, while MY Adonis could never be a blonde (except Chris Hemsworth, of course). That’s the subjective scale we’re talking about.

        4. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          And if you had a choice, wouldn’t you rather have an Adonis who was great in bed, than a 5 who was great in bed?

          I’d rather have the guy I was most attracted to. Sex is good when the attraction is good. His number is irrelevant to me.

          I’ve had sex with an Adonis. It was perfectly … adequate. My attraction for him was a level 5. The two guys I’ve had the best sex with were very average-looking. My attraction for them was a level 10. It’s not to say I couldn’t be highly attracted to an Adonis; it just hasn’t happened.

        5. Karmic Equation

          But how were their voices, Emily?

          Maybe your scale is voice-dependent?

          That’s the subjective scale.

          Objectively, you recognize they were not conventionally (aka “objectively”) good looking. But something else about them made them good looking to YOU.

          Goldie doesn’t post here anymore. But once I dissed Bill Gates because I thought (still think) he’s a below-average looking, and she say she found him very attractive. Some my “4” was her “8”.

          No need to defend the subjective scale. We all have them.

          We women just need to find men for whom WE (at whatever) size/shape we are) are their 7-10, as opposed to being their 1-6.

          That’s why I don’t approach men. I believe when a man makes the effort to approach, he’s declaring that I’m in his subjective 7-10 range. I do not delude myself into thinking I’m anybody’s objective 7-10 🙂

        6. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          But how were their voices, Emily? LOL I don’t remember their voices, to be honest. Just how it felt to be around them. One I knew 20 years ago. The other 10 years ago. The one from 20 years ago … we were in college. I’d go to his dorm room and sit on his bed. He’d be animated, walking around, talking about his day … And I couldn’t hear a word he was saying! All I could think was … COME OVER HERE!   🙂

          I agree with you. Bill Gates is by no means a handsome man. Neither is Mark Zuckerberg. Neither was Steve Jobs.

          I’ll approach men, but I try to be cognizant of what I am getting back. If he’s friendly but by no means flirty or not throwing anything out at me, I’ll leave him alone.

           

  10. 30
    CaliforniaGirl

    I know someone who works in a big matchmaking company and it’s not a sugar daddy style but they accept only men with good jobs and careers. The stories she tells about all these women who blow them on a first dates in a car or invite the guys over and trying to sleep with them. One guy told her that if he meets a woman who doesn’t offer to blow him in his car  on a first date, he would marry her. All my guy friends say that if they go out with someone younger than 30, 95% she would suggest a bj in the car at the end of the evening. It’s LA, I don’t know, maybe specific for the area but women are doing it and a lot.

    1. 30.1
      Adreana

      “It’s LA, I don’t know, maybe specific for the area but women are doing it and a lot”.

      Yes, I’ve heard a lot about that too. Many of these men are so used to accepting   instant gratification, that the of   idea of waiting longer seems so bizarre and unnecessary. I think it’s important to be honest about these things and be with someone who’s more willing to move at the same pace…. Someone who’s more resereved about this isn’t going to be happy with someone who expects a bj the first month and vice versa. Instead of resenting each other    just find someone more compatible.

  11. 31
    Charlotte

    I am in the camp of a BJ is not the same as intercourse… At all. Maybe it’s a generational issue. (32) I gave my first love in high school a BJ a year before we had sex the first time. After high school sex seemed to come first and BJ became rare. I have yet to be ghosted but, if I were, having given a BJ wouldn’t really bother me. If I had sex with the guy I would feel used and regretful. At the same time, I wouldn’t be in a position where I am doing either one unless I felt safe and really knew the guy after over a month. I guess it just comes down to what each person is comfortable with.

  12. 32
    Affable Morgan

    Hi Evan!   Couldn’t agree more.   You’re talking about great “foreplay” with a guy you think might be a keeper while you date and figure out if he is.   And who would want a guy who isn’t good at Foreplay?    And I would be the one bringing out the best in him sexually!   Wao!   It also lets me learn about him … is he fun, is he generous, is he easygoing, is he talented : )   Perfect in my book!

  13. 33
    Susan

    Maybe I am an old and out-of-date Gen Xer, but it’s my experience that women who give out blow jobs to men who aren’t their boyfriends aren’t thought of very highly by those men. They are usually the butt of jokes, labelled as easy and certainly not considered marriage or even girlfriend material by men and also other women. I say this as someone who loves giving blow jobs, but only to men I am exclusive with.

    Women and men are taught from a young age that women fall into one of two categories: the women you marry (the “good girl”); and the woman you have fun with (the whore). This Madonna-whore BS is drilled into women’s heads. That’s why women here are reacting badly to this advice suggesting to keep him interested and around you have to blow men you barely know anything about. It also suggests men have no self-control at all that they have to get off somehow within a month’s time to stay interested. And let’s face it, they can disappear any time after you’ve had them in your mouth. And sorry, but blowing someone is a pretty intimate act.

    Also, when does she get hers? Women think about sex, too. I think about it on the first date. If I am not feeling it, I will give them three dates to decide, but no more as to not lead them on. No one can accurately assess chemistry or compatibility on the first date. But at the three-date mark, they are definitely thinking they are getting some, but if I am not feeling it down there or anywhere else, I will call it off. We make this terrible assumption women don’t need/want sex as much and what they really want is babies and security. This does no one any favours.

    If paying for a date and giving out blow jobs are considered equal acts, then I think I want to be a man.

    Also, if you’re blowing someone who’s not your boyfriend, guaranteed he’s getting BJs from other women, too. I shouldn’t have to articulate how unsafe this is.

    I have a 13-year-old daughter who I will likely have to give dating advice to one day. Giving out blow jobs to men she barely knows won’t be part of that discussion.

     

    1. 33.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Susan,

      I’m an early Gen-Xer and the girls who gave BJs to non-boyfriend dates when I was in HS and college were called “hose monsters.”   It was not a term of endearment for sure!   If a girl was suspected of being a hose monster, guys would ask her out just to get blown.

      Times sure have changed in a way but the double standard still exists.   My adult son said this casual handing out of blow jobs was common when he was in HS and college 10-15 years ago.   He said he doesn’t see any problem with it.   So when I said, “Oh so you won’t have a problem with (his 9 year old daughter) starting to do that in a few years.”   The “Oh HELL no!” left his mouth pretty quickly.

      1. 33.1.1
        CaliforniaGirl

        I am so glad I wasn’t raised in this country because that was not normal in my school or college.

        I asked my friend yesterday who is 32 and dates, he said it is normal for a girl to blow on a first date, age range 20-30. I asked him “Why is she doing it?” He said: “To make me feel good, so I’ll call her again”. Just pathetic.

        1. Adreana

          CaliforniaGirl- I wasn’t raised in this  U.S either. I never felt the pressure to have sex( including oral) just so “boys would like me”.  I was raised with the idea that   it’s very normal for a man to court a women, and she isn’t “using” him or leading him on if she lets him wait. Maybe  planning dates, initiating phone calls , taking her out is just something “most” men here sincerely don’t enjoy or feel natural about. It feels like too much work, and that’s why they expect a woman to go down on them early   ( or else she’s “using” him or leading him on).   Plus they don’t seem to care about a woman’s pleasure , because if she wants to wait…they figure she MUST not like sex, so who cares about her own pleasure? Lets be clear, I want to wait for a relationship , but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to enjoy sex or that I would be ok with the guy not reciprocating.

        2. Adreana

          “An Emotionally healthy man with options wouldn’t stick around waiting, spending his time and money for a women that is not making him feel in a way that compels him to keep coming back”.

          And likewise a confident, attractive woman with options wouldn’t stick around with a guy   that doesn’t make her feel special. If you wanna leave  her  no biggie-there were always be other men waiting to take your place 😛

          The best guy I dated agreed to wait-he was hot, confident,  sweet,    and had plenty of options. But then again you have to factor in his personality- more reversed and very spiritual ( we used to meditate and do yoga together). We  ended it because there was a communication   problem.

          No matter what we want, it’s important to be honest  with ourselves and the  other person.   Some men seek out women from different cultures/  upbringing ,only to get  upset    about her wanting to take slower than what he’s used to.  Ultimately, I think we  all  prefer   to be with someone who shares our values and that’s ok.)

          Btw, dating blogs are mostly for women, but there are countless PUA blogs for men( because they struggle with approaching women)…so many unqualified gurus lying to men they could get ANY woman they want with this technique or the other. I agree most men and women need a lot of help.

           

        3. Karmic Equation

          Maybe this is a West Coast thing?

          I live in the Northeast USA, men I dated in the 18 months prior to meeting my bf, ranging from 30-50 yo, did not expect bjs on the first date. All were good with a a not-so-chaste good night kiss. A few  had roaming hands, but overall, all were gentlemanly and didn’t expect bjs as their good night kiss.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          We’re NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST DATE. We’re talking about moving further sexually as time goes by – so you can each get sexual gratification while deciding if a relationship makes sense. Why is this so hard to understand?

        5. Karmic Equation

          LOL. Evan. This particular post I’m responding to (33.1.1) is about first dates. So I was just addressing  that as someone posited that bjs on a first date could be “an LA thing” 🙂

          It’s good to know you’re not advocating bjs on a first date. lolol (I am laughing so hard at your outrage right now.)

        6. CaliforniaGirl

          @Karmic Equation,

          men do not expect a bj on a first date, the problem is that all these poor insecure women were told to give a man a bj to keep him interested. Don’t you see a hidden agenda here? 🙂 At least you can take a look at his size, I guess..

          I just wonder – I go out with a guy, don’t have sex with him, waiting to see if he is a boyfriend material, tell him all those things like “I would love to have sex with you but I only do it with boyfriends blah blah”, he waits and he tells me he is my boyfriend, we have sex and he is finished in 10 seconds and doesn’t take care of me. I give him another chance, because I am a good person and also he is already my boyfriend, right? Same thing. What should I do now? Break up with him? I am a very straightforward person I will tell tell him the reason in details.   The guy will need a therapy until rest of his life. I think it’s just cruel. 🙂

        7. Karmic Equation

          LOL, CaliforniaGirl. I wonder how many shades of red that guy turns after you give him an  earful?

          I believe oral sex is sex. It’s right there in the term “oral SEX”. Like anal sex is sex (although in my youth, I knew a couple that was saving vaginal sex for marriage, so they did anal instead to preserve her virginity. The logic of the young. <smh>)

          I think most men are good with  women allowing heavy petting (from him) and do some heavy petting herself before “exclusivity” is agreed upon.

          A girl who doesn’t attach when she has sex can’t go wrong if she has oral/vaginal sex when she wants to.

          I’ve had sex as an ONS turn into a 6yr relationship; and I’ve had sex on date 7 (no makeout sessions before date 7) and was married for 9 years; and I’ve had sex after hanging out 1-2x per week for 8 weeks – without ANY makeout sessions — and had that turn into the the current 14-month relationship.

          My personal experience has shown that a guy is not more or less likely to commit depending on when you have sex.

          IMO, assuming the woman likes the guy, then whether the relationship has a chance or not depends on

          (1) the guy (whether he sees the woman as gf material or not);

          (2) how a woman handles herself AFTER sex;

          (3) how compatible he and she are outside of the bedroom

          …not when they had sex  (oral or otherwise).

          Evan’s method of waiting for sex until he’s her bf is effective  for women who can’t read men or can’t handle NSA sex.

          If women feel that bjs are less intimate than vaginal sex, then this is a good compromise for her to do something sexual while she’s trying to figure out if she’s ready to have sex with the guy.

          Personally, I feel bjs are more intimate than vaginal sex, so I’d go vaginal before oral. To each her own, on this one.

        8. GoWiththeFlow

          KE,

          This:
          “Evan’s method of waiting for sex until he’s her bf is effective  for women who can’t read men or can’t handle NSA sex.
          If women feel that bjs are less intimate than vaginal sex, then this is a good compromise for her to do something sexual while she’s trying to figure out if she’s ready to have sex with the guy.”

        9. CaliforniaGirl

          Yep, there is absolutely no correlation between how fast you have sex with a guy and if he is going to be your boyfriend/husband. I had sex with my ex husband on our second date and he called in sick next day and we just spent all day in bed. He proposed a year and a half later. We were together for 11 years. My last serious boyfriend, I picked up a gorgeous younger guy in a bar, literally, I just wanted him for sex. Apparently, he was a very interesting and smart guy and after few months we both realized we are in love with each other. It lasted for two years, so you never know.

          I think the best approach to do something as you feel it, not if it’s right or wrong but if you want to do it or not. You should always listen to your gut, if you want to have sex just do it, it’s you, it’s your personality, if you don’t want to have sex, don’t do it. People over complicate and over analyze everything, life is meaningless. The only meaning is what you create in your head.

           

           

      2. 33.1.2
        Susan

        I bet the boys weren’t going down on the girls in the school, were they?

        This double standard starts young and is less a product of biology and hormones than it is social conditioning. Men think this way because they are taught to think this way and, more importantly, taught they deserve sex from women, even without commitment.

        I have dumped men because they wouldn’t go down on me. This comes as a shock to them because they think women just want them for their money and/or sperm. I can make my own money, but I can’t do myself.

        Evan did say women should be getting satisfied, too, but saying giving blow jobs is the same as paying for a date is a total crock and does nothing but make an exchange one of money for sex. It’s way easier to open your wallet than your mouth. Making a man dinner is the equivalent to paying the bill on a date.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          It’s not an “exchange for money.” It’s being conscious that if a man is calling/planning/paying, he’s not just doing so for your conversation. That is not bad, nor wrong. It’s DATING. Sex is what separates it from other meals with two people across a dinner table. If you give virtually no indication that you’re attracted to him, if you reject him when he’s trying to move forward, if you think he’s disgusting or perverted for reaching for your shirt/belt buckle (instead of just being a regular guy driven by testosterone), you will be perpetually aggrieved at why men don’t feel attractive around you. They feel like they’re on a job interview for husband. Take a guy around the bases, bring some heat, and observe him for a month and you’ll have a MUCH better chance than if you set some arbitrary rule in your head that he will invariably violate.

        2. Adreana

          “Sex is what separates it from other meals with two people across a dinner table”.

          A woman can be flirtatious and inject sexual energy without having sex until she’s ready.

          This reminds of when   young boys try to pressure girls into having sex by saying, ” but don’t you love me?” “My ex-girlfriend went down on my by this time”. Common now, unless the woman sucks at flirting or is ultra shy, you KNOW when she’s attracted to you…Men aren’t that dense as they pretend to be, or are they? .)

           

        3. Adrian

          Hi Adreana,

          Statistically who buys the overwhelming majority of dating self-help books?

          Statistically who are the majority of clients for matchmakers, relationship and dating coaches?

          Statically who is the target audience for romance movies?

          Women! Women! Women!

          Face it Adreanna, most men AND women don’t know how to treat the opposite sex during courting.

          Many women don’t know how to flirt.

          Many women don’t know how to keep a man enticed non-sexually.

          Many women don’t know how to reciprocate without giving too much or too little-just as most men don’t

          Also we must remember that the majority of Evan’s advice is speaking about men of quality character, but also with options. An Emotionally healthy man with options wouldn’t stick around waiting, spending his time and money for a women that is not making him feel in a way that compels him to keep coming back.

        4. Adreana

          Adrian- I replied to your post above. .)

  14. 34
    Adrian

    Evan Marc Katz stated, “It’s being conscious that if a man is calling/planning/paying, he’s not just doing so for your conversation… If you (women) give virtually no indication that you’re attracted to him… you will be perpetually aggrieved at why men don’t feel attractive around you.

    ________

    Would some of the female commentators tell me how they let a guy who they “are” attracted to, and that has been properly courting them for over a month, know that they find him attractive?

    I am assuming of course this is a guy at least on your SMV level who has other options.

    1. 34.1
      CaliforniaGirl

      I never waited a month for sex, I, actually, don’t know many girlfriends who waited that long if they were attracted to a guy. He either likes you or not and it doesn’t really matter when you’ll have sex. I either have full sexual experience or we don’t have anything, a guy doesn’t get a bj before he goes down. If he doesn’t by second time we have sex, he is a history and even if I liked him before, it just disappears. I cannot understand women who stay with their boyfriends who are selfish in bed. I can understand if you are already married, have a mortgage, kids, all that crap but if he is a boyfriend and you can just leave? That’s beyond me.

      Life is too short to spend it on bad sex and greedy men.

       

    2. 34.2
      Emily, the original

      Adrian,

      Would some of the female commentators tell me how they let a guy who they “are” attracted to, and that has been properly courting them for over a month, know that they find him attractive?

      Like CaliforniaGirl, I’ve never waited a month either, but, in retrospect, getting to know the person a bit more and waiting longer is not a bad idea.

      If a woman is continuing to accept dates with you for over a month, she is showing you she is attracted to you. You have gone out … what? At least 4 times by then. Have you ever gone out with a woman for over a month you didn’t find appealing? She is returning your calls/texts quickly. She is making her time with you a priority. There’s been at least some physicality to the relationship. Deep kissing, heavy petting … and it’s hot. Meaning she’s into it. She’s excited to see you. Her body language is positive and open to you. She appreciates your efforts and lets you know that. She seems to have fun with you.

      1. 34.2.1
        McLovin

        Emily,

         

        I’m sure this rationally makes sense to you, because you’re a woman with good intentions.

         

        However, as a guy, I can assure you that the fact that a woman is accepting dates from a man  on an ongoing basis is not a reliable indicator of her level of interest and/or attraction. Many, MANY women today have guys they date, and guys they screw on the side.

         

        In fact, I would even go so far as to say that what I’ve outlined above is the preferred method of ‘dating’ for a not-insignificant percentage of women. Especially average-looking and above.

        1. Karmic Equation

          McLovin,

          I don’t understand why you’re so worried about who the woman is screwing on the side when you haven’t offered her a commitment. You should only care if you and she are in a committed relationship. Women should behave likewise.

          If both people who are “dating” each other are screwing other people, it’s both sexes’ prerogative.

          What is more reprehensible is when a man takes advantage of a women’s belief that they are in an exclusive relationship after sex when he’s still dating/screwing other women.

          Or like someone else on this board, who is actually living with his girlfriend, who probably believes that they’re heading towards marriage because they’re living together, but who has no intention of ever marrying her, due to the “unjust” laws in this country.

          Taking advantage of a woman’s naivete and wasting her fertile years, which she can never get back, is a much more heinous result  than any courtship behavior men are allegedly “forced” to perform to gain access to sex with said woman.

        2. Emily, the original

          McLovin,

          However, as a guy, I can assure you that the fact that a woman is accepting dates from a man  on an ongoing basis is not a reliable indicator of her level of interest and/or attraction. Many, MANY women today have guys they date, and guys they screw on the side.

          I guess I am exception to this. I don’t like to accept even first dates with men I don’t have at least a moderate level of interest in. I have gone on dates with men I have very little interest in to “give them a chance,” but I always regret it. If I accept a second date, I really like a man. By the third date, I am hoping (though I probably won’t say anything; it’s too soon) this moves into something real.

          Why are women dating one man and having sex with another? Does the former have money while the latter is the one she wants but won’t commit? If I did get mixed up in a commitment-free situation (and I hope by my age I wouldn’t!), I’d probably be so fixated on the guy I really wanted, I wouldn’t want to spend time with anyone else.

        3. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original
          “Why are women dating one man and having sex with another? Does the former have money while the latter is the one she wants but won’t commit?  “
            
          Like McLovin I’ve seen this scenario first hand quite a few times as well. My observation has been that women usually date the first guy not so much for his money (as women usually have their own money) rather for the attention, validation, time and the general ego-boost that being the object of someone’s devotion generates. However, as you say, the guy getting the sex is the hot one she actually wants, but he’s more than likely chasing another woman he actually wants, and possibly got a few other women on his rota to boot. I suppose it’s a kinda solution to the old   “you can’t have your cake and eat it too” dilemma; as it’s so difficult to find one guy who can fulfil all her needs at the same time why not have one guy for her emotional/validation needs and another guy for her sexual needs?
            
          The male equivalent – as Karmic already pointed out above – is being in a long-term non-committal relationship (or a quasi “committed relationship”; you know those relationships that go on for years where the girl really wants to be married but the guy isn’t that bothered?). That way he can have his girlfriend for emotional support/regular sex, cheating for some variety, and then dump the girlfriend when someone better comes along or he’s better established in his career.
            
          @ Karmic Equation
          “Taking advantage of a woman’s naivete and wasting her fertile years, which she can never get back, is a much more heinous result  than any courtship behavior men are allegedly “forced” to perform to gain access to sex with said woman”
            
          So which gender’s version of “having your caking and eating it too” is worse? Hmm, I tend to agree with you that costing a woman her fertile years is worse than costing a guy his time/energy/money on some dates.
            
          But ultimately, the onus of responsibility lies on each individual dater to look out for themselves, therefore, it’s up to each man to ensure he’s not making a (significant) investment in women who’re screwing other guys, and it’s up to each woman to ensure she doesn’t waste her “fertile years” on non-committal guys.
            
          Or to quote Obama (your hero right?); “ignorance is not a virtue.”

        4. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          My observation has been that women usually date the first guy for the attention, validation, time and the general ego-boost that being the object of someone’s devotion generates. However, as you say, the guy getting the sex is the hot one she actually wants, but he’s more than likely chasing another woman he actually wants …

          Then where does it end? Is anyone with who they really want or are they just bidding their time until something better comes along?

          I don’t understand going out with someone for validation. While it is flattering when someone likes you, it doesn’t mean all that much if it the interest isn’t mutual.

           

        5. Tom10

           
          @ Evan
           
          Lol, as a non-American I don’t actually have strong opinions on American politics; I just think I remember Karmic saying she isn’t an Obama fan (although I may be wrong).
           
            
           
            
           
          @ Emily, the original
           
          Then where does it end?”
           
            
           
          Well I guess that’s up to every individual to answer. For women I suppose it’s when her desire for the security of commitment begins to outweigh her draw to chemistry (late 20s — early 30s?), and for men it’s when his energy required to continue looking for sex beings to wane and is outweighed by the benefits of security (mid — late 30s?).
           
            
           
          “Is anyone with who they really want or are they just bidding their time until something better comes along?”
           
            
           
          Well I suppose these comments only apply to all those perennial singles out there (i.e. here!); all the happy couples are busy lovin’ rather than commentin’. 😉

        6. Karmic Equation

          @Tom10,

          I’m definitely NOT an Obama fan. I’m a proud rider of the Trump Train. lol

          I would never quote Obama except to mock him, and I’m sure he plagiarized that quote from a law book, a quote I’m more familiar with: “Ignorance of the law does not exempt you from it.”

          ————

          I’m pretty sure you speak from experience as the hot guy the gal wants but can’t have, but you’re aware she’s dating someone else regularly. Whereas McLovin is worried about being the guy she dates but doesn’t f*ck. Because if he was on the same side of the fence as you, he wouldn’t be concerned, right?

          Maybe it’s the company I keep. The girl friends I have wouldn’t date for the comfort and then bang someone else for their hotness. If they don’t find him attractive, they don’t date him. They only date men they find attractive and with whom they believe they could have a relationship. My gfs are probably in the 5 and below range.

          Perhaps the women you and McLovin are aware of, who date for validation, are the in the 8-10 range. And if so, then I can see that happening with that league of women.

          All that said, I agree with you 100%. The onus is on each gender to look after themselves. Men shouldn’t date gold-diggers, if he can’t afford to date them, and women shouldn’t waste time on non-committal men, when she’s looking for a committed relationship.

          The bitterness espoused by people  who felt they were taken advantage of by the other gender is caused by his/her  own lack of self-awareness or lack of courage to end relationships that became  unhealthy or dead-end.

          I would say if both genders not only dated  with courage, but have relationships with courage, then   we’d see a lot more happy people with good relationship results.

          I know that many people think of successful, long-term relationships as a marriage that spans decades. I’m m0re flexible in  how I define a successful LTR. I define it as a relationship lasting more than 2 years, where both people are consistently happy and satisfied during the relationship and who remain friends if/when the relationship ends, with both parties wishing the best for the other party, with no animosity or jealousy of the other person’s new relationships.

          By that definition, all but one  of my relationships, including my marriage, have been good relationships.

        7. Tom10

           
          @ Karmic Equation
           
          “the Trump Train” love it, lol.
           
            
           
          “Perhaps the women you and McLovin are aware of, who date for validation, are the in the 8-10 range. And if so, then I can see that happening with that league of women.”
           
            
           
          Well the women I’ve known in that category are usually in the 6.4 — 6.8 range, i.e. just below a 7. So they’re hot enough to sleep with the 7-and-above-guys on a regular basis (for months, or even years) but not hot enough to obtain commitment from them. Yet, as they’re almost a 7 they can obtain devotion, validation and commitment from the 4, 5 & 6 guys. So they date the 6 guy as a “kinda boyfriend” and have sex with the 8 guy hoping one day he’ll come round. Which never happens of course.
           
            
           
          The 8-10 range women can get commitment/validation/emotional support from the same 7-and-above-guy, therefore they wouldn’t “usually” date two guys simultaneously.
           
            
           
          “I know that many people think of successful, long-term relationships as a marriage that spans decades. I’m m0re flexible in  how I define a successful LTR. I define it as a relationship lasting more than 2 years, where both people are consistently happy and satisfied during the relationship and who remain friends if/when the relationship ends, with both parties wishing the best for the other party, with no animosity or jealousy of the other person’s new relationships.”
           
            
          I like that, and I suppose it’s the way the zeitgeist is going. Indeed, at some point in the future, not only will a series of ltrs become the norm it will actually become the aim.

        8. Evan Marc Katz

          Not for people who want to have kids, it won’t. And Trump Train? Legitimately scary.

        9. Karmic Equation

          @Tom10,

          “Well the women I’ve known in that category are usually in the 6.4 — 6.8 range, i.e. just below a 7. So they’re hot enough to sleep with the 7-and-above-guys on a regular basis (for months, or even years) but not hot enough to obtain commitment from them.”

          LMAO. I only go +/-, as in 6+ or 7-. Never so specific as 6.4 or 6.8 — How is a 6.8 different from a 6.4? Enquiring minds want to know!

          I understand about the “7” rating. I rate myself in that area. Too hot for the 6’s and below and not hot enough for 8s and above for commitment. No man’s land. Until you add a sparkling personality, wit, and humor. A guy friend told me that totally bumps me up to the high 8’s. Love that guy! haha

          Yes. I can see those 7s not accepting their “no man’s land” status and thus dating 6 and belows for validation while hankering for a commitment from the 8 and aboves.

          Goes to my other theory that if women accepted their objective ratings more graciously, they could assortative mate faster into the LTRs they really want instead of wasting time and getting burned by the 8+s who’ll sleep with but won’t commit to them.

          @EMK,

          Another 4 years of liberal appeasement and dangerous political correctness to Islamic terrorists and illegal immigrants is not what I want. I drive my liberal friends crazy with my Killary and anti-Obama FB meme shares. Had to unfriend and block a friend who was getting apoplectic about them.

        10. Evan Marc Katz

          If I were your friend, I would have unfriended you. In the words of Der Trumper: Sad.

        11. Shaukat

          Interesting that Trump talks about political correctness and sensitivity as massive flaws when he actually tried to sue Bill Maher over  a joke.

        12. Evan Marc Katz

          And has revoked press credentials from any news organization that he deems too critical. I mean, seriously: a free press is sort of the foundation of the United States and this guy is a borderline fascist. Oh, don’t get me started–

        13. Karmic Equation

          If we accept this definition of political correctness:

          “Political correctness is the practice of refusing to acknowledge the truth or the facts of a situation because your words may be considered offensive to some people. This is not the same as being purposefully rude or hurtful although some may interpret it that way.” (source)

          Then Bill Maher’s joke was “purposefully rude and hurtful”, not politically incorrect as you are implying, Shaukat.

          Because Maher said — in jest, as comedians are wont to do — that he would donate $5 million to a charity if Trump could prove he wasn’t the “the spawn of his mother having sex with an orangutan.”

          Seems silly to me that Trump would have sued him as celebrities and famous folk are often ridiculed by comedians. That said, I used to like Bill Maher, but I find  his sycophantish idolization of Obama nauseating.

        14. Karmic Equation

          Evan,

          Mainstream media is left. Far left. They report anything that has to do with Trump in the most negative of light, while deafeningly silent on anything that Democrats have done that are far worse than anything Trump has said.

          We will definitely not agree on this, Evan. And I don’t want you to ban me from this board 😉

          Let’s agree to disagree on our current political climate. I shall endeavor to remain silent on my political affiliations henceforward. Pinky swear.

        15. Evan Marc Katz

          I will not ban you from this board for your political associations, no more than I’d ban all of those MGOTWs who likely believe the same fact-free right-wing authoritarian red-pill b.s. You are a very valuable contributor to EMK.com and your logical skills and ability to see things from a man’s POV are unusually strong. Makes it all the more surprising that you align yourself with Trump – who only sees things from his own point of view. But yes, let’s agree to not talk about this anymore since it won’t amount to anyone changing his/her mind.

        16. shaukat

          I’ll just respond to KE’s last comment before also bowing out of this topic:

          Trump says things which are patently false-as verified by multiple fact checkers-simply because such statements appeal to his main base and because he knows that the latter won’t care about the inaccuracies. In other words, he is lying for a far more cynical reason than a comedian-to win an election-and he apparently doesn’t care if his comments further marginalize or stigmatize already vulnerable groups. So many of his comments don’t fit with the definition of PC you provided. It’s in this context that I find his statements about Political Correctness, and his lawsuit against Bill Maher, truly baffling.

        17. Emily, the original

          Tom10,
             Well I guess that’s up to every individual to answer. For women I suppose it’s when her desire for the security of commitment begins to outweigh her draw to chemistry (late 20s — early 30s?), and for men it’s when his energy required to continue looking for sex beings to wane and is outweighed by the benefits of security (mid — late 30s?).

          So, in other words, when both give up on chasing who turns them on and start looking for the safe choice? That’s a depressing answer.

           

        18. Chance

          KE said:   “Or  like someone else on this board, who is actually living with his girlfriend, who probably believes that they’re heading towards marriage because they’re living together, but who has no intention of ever marrying her, due to the “unjust” laws in this country.”

           

           

          Bold quotation is pure, unadulterated conjecture.

        19. Tom10

          @ Evan

          Not for people who want to have kids, it won’t”

           

          Good point.

           

          @ Karmic Equation

          “LMAO. I only go +/-, as in 6+ or 7-. Never so specific as 6.4 or 6.8 – How is a 6.8 different from a 6.4? Enquiring minds want to know”

           

          Well it’s just a further delineation of attraction within the overall parameters of a “6” category really; so some 6s are hotter than other 6s, some are just above a 5 whereas others are closer to a 7.

           

          Indeed, so precise are my friends and I that we can look at 20 different women, assign each of them a number, and almost all of us will give them the exact same rating to the accuracy of one decimal place.

           

          Some guys go even further and go beyond one decimal place, but that’s not universally accepted protocol.

           

          Lol, ratings talk can be hilarious. My friends and I spend hours and hours discussing this very subject.

           

          @ Emily, the original

          “So, in other words, when both give up on chasing who turns them on and start looking for the safe choice? That’s a depressing answer.”

           

          Well the way I see it is that they’re maturing and making important life decisions (probably THE most important life decision) based on rationalism, sound judgement, astute behavioral observation and alignment of goals rather than making life decisions based on “feelings” and “chemistry.”

           

          Depressing? I actually see it as enlightening and, er, sensible!

           

          Incidentally Emily, what do you think of Evan’s advice to prioritize compatibility over chemistry? Do you abide by this, or is your primary dating goal to chase “someone who turns [you] on”? Have you changed how you date now in contrast with how you dated in the past, and if so, how?

        20. Karmic Equation

          Hi Emily,

          “So, in other words, when both give up on chasing who turns them on and start looking for the safe choice? That’s a depressing answer.”

          There’s a whole lot between “one who turns us on and the safe choice”. If that’s how you’re thinking (black and white only, not grey area), then that could be why you’re lacking success in finding a happy LTR.

          1) Don’t date people you don’t find attractive, whatever that means to you 🙂 — But that doesn’t mean you should ONLY date people who “turn you on” — Date people whom you’re certain does NOT repulse you, but whom you’re not certain whether you could be attracted to or not. In other words, if they’re “cute” to you.  If you go “yuck” at the thought of dating them, don’t.

          2) However, attraction shouldn’t just be the “turn you on” kind, which makes it all about sex. You should teach yourself to be NOTICE    kind, thoughtful, good character, etc., those non-sexual intangibles that make a guy a good relationship partner. And then while dating try to figure out if this guy’s particular blend of cute and non-sexual intangibles are a combination that makes you happy. Are you happy to kiss this guy? Are you happy in his presence? Are you happy to have sex with him?

          I had one bf that turned me on like no other, but I wasn’t necessarily happy with our relationship outside the bedroom. My current relationship is much more satisfying. There was a lot of sex at the first month of our relationship, but 1 year later, everything is “just” good. I like having sex with him. I like the relationship we have outside the bedroom. It’s not the “safe” choice. It’s the “happy/content/smooth sailing/minimal drama/we can work things out” choice.

          @Shaukat,

          I would love to rebut, but am going to keep my promise to EMK not to get political here. But let’s just say that mainstream media, which is left leaning,  is biased against conservatives. They don’t report left/right activities neutrally. So if you ONLY follow what mainstream media reports, you only get the negative side of Trump and only the positive side of Democrats. And if there is a way to spin a negative into a positive for the Dems, liberal media will spin it that way. And if there is a way to spin the positive into the negative for conservatives, mainstream media will do so. So I don’t trust how mainstream media reports on politics. At the same time,  I also read what right-wing media reports with (many) grains of salt.

          Democrats are masters at political correctness, but I don’t believe political correctness to be a virtue. I feel it is a form of free-speech suppression. The side that gets “offended” gets to decide how everyone else is supposed to speak. This is akin to women telling men that men need to speak a certain way or behave a certain way so that he doesn’t “hurt” her. If a man is just living his life and communicating authentically to her and she happens to get hurt (which was not his intent), should he change and walk on eggshells for fear of hurting her or should she lighten up?

          @Tom10,

          Someday, Tom10, if you’re stateside or I’m in the UK, I would like to see your rating system in action. Would be enlightening to me, for sure.

        21. Chance

          KE, the mainstream media isn’t biased to the left.   In many (Most?   Almost all?) cases, they are attempting to capture and lock in a niche audience.   That’s why Fox News (which, btw, is part of the mainstream media in my book) has been so successful.   They realized there was a large portion of the American population that was convinced that the media has a liberal bias so they locked that niche down by presenting the news as “fair and balanced”, but really is right-leaning.   It’s just capitalism, and there is a lot of money to be made by confirming folks’ predilections.

        22. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          Incidentally Emily, what do you think of Evan’s advice to prioritize compatibility over chemistry? Do you abide by this, or is your primary dating goal to chase “someone who turns [you] on”? Have you changed how you date now in contrast with how you dated in the past, and if so, how?

          Intellectually, the advice makes sense to me, but I am having trouble getting the rest of me to catch up with it, particularly in the rare instances where I get around someone I am very attracted to. It reminds me of what could be.

           

           

          Karmic Equation,

           

          Date people whom you’re certain does NOT repulse you, but whom you’re not certain whether you could be attracted to or not. In other words, if they’re “cute” to you.

          I tried that a couple of months ago in an effort to be more open. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I thought he was cute. His appearance didn’t move me one way or the other. However, he seemed nice enough and there were no red flags. But I felt no chemistry, and I couldn’t wait for the date to be over.

        23. Tom10

           
          @ Emily, the original
          “Intellectually, the advice makes sense to me, but I am having trouble getting the rest of me to catch up with it, particularly in the rare instances where I get around someone I am very attracted to”

          Snap, most of us are in the same situation, which is why we’re here on the same blog. 🙁

          Btw, I don’t think chasing chemistry is necessarily a problem — if you’re satisfied with the outcomes you’re obtaining. It’s only a problem if your dating outcomes don’t match your dating goals; that’s when a change of approach is worth examining.

          @ Christine
          “Tom, why are you stopping at the tenths?   If your rating scale is so precise, why not let it go out to the thousandths, to really split hairs—like in gymnastics?   LOL—i.e. someone can be a 9.817!”

          Well I find tenths offer a sufficient level of accuracy — further levels of classification seem spurious (although I’ve seen many guys do it) as looks only constitute one part of the overall package; maybe my friends and I would be better off putting more energy into rating women’s personalities and characters! 😉

        24. Karmic Equation

          @Chance,

          I think of ABC, CBS, NBC, and Fox25 — not FoxNews — as mainstream media. As is the  NY Times.

          All of those media lean left in that liberal policies/politics are spun to sound good and right policies/politics are spun to sound bad.

          FoxNews does the opposite and spins right-wing activities  to positives and left-wing to negatives.

      2. 34.2.2
        Christine

        Emily, you sound like me before I met my boyfriend.   I also struggled with actually implementing Evan’s advice–even while always agreeing with it intellectually.   First, I went for the alpha males that ignited “obsessive”, crazy-making chemistry in me.

        Then, to avoid the hurt and pain that ultimately resulted in those partnerships, I swung way too far in the other direction with guys I felt almost zero chemistry for (which was also a mistake, of a different kind).

        There really is a happy middle ground between those two extremes, that I finally found.   Sorry I can’t encapsulate it into a step-by-step method, or I’d give it to you now!   But I basically did it just through learning from my mistakes and trial and error.   I want to just encourage you that it is possible and you don’t have to be a slave to chemistry.

        When you’re around someone you’re very attracted to, it takes superhuman strength not to be influenced by it.   All Evan is saying is, just try not to be blinded by it either and still keep the thinking cap on.

         

        1. Emily, the original

          Hi Christine,

          I’m slightly curious about the recurring narrative on this site: Woman dates alpha male, with whom she feels smoking hot chemistry, but he is not consistent, doesn’t offer commitment, etc. The man I have a huge crush on right now is by no means an alpha male. Neither was the last guy I really liked.

          Anyway, I’d be willing to try dating someone with whom I felt a mid-level of chemistry. When I have done that in the past, I usually start to find something I don’t like about him and then   talk myself out of it. (If I’m on that proverbial fence, I slide off and say forget it!) I’d hope I’d do something different if I was given the opportunity again.

        2. Christine

          Emily, that’s true–I’ve also known non-alpha men who were non-committal too (mostly guys my friends dated).

          I’m just curious, what is it about a guy that made you decide not to see him anymore?   I always liked to take some time to really sort out, in my own mind, what true “dealbreaker” are (and what are undesirable qualities that I can learn to live with).

        3. Karmic Equation

          “Anyway, I’d be willing to try dating someone with whom I felt a mid-level of chemistry. When I have done that in the past, I usually start to find something I don’t like about him and then   talk myself out of it.”

          I think you’re an avoidant, who loves  sex. Nothing wrong with that.

          I don’t think you really want an LTR, where you may have to make compromises. And that’s ok, too.

          There is nothing wrong with having a series of STRs. When they flame out, you move on. As long as you ACCEPT that’s what makes you tick, then you’ll be happy.

          However, if you really ARE looking for an LTR, then you need to recalibrate your expectations. Instant attraction is not an indicator of long-term compatibility. High  compatibility cannot generate attraction. There’s a happy medium where there’s enough compatibility and enough sexual attraction to make both parties want to pursue something deeper.

          And during the process of “pursuing something deeper” sometimes (maybe even oftentimes) things don’t  work out. And that’s ok. You learn from it and you go out and find the next guy.

          If you’re looking for a guy who “turns you on” the minute you meet him who is also 100% compatible with you, you’ll be single forever.

          If you’d rather sacrifice compatibility for sexual attraction, that’s your prerogative and it’s perfectly ok. Have as many sexual liaisons as you want and don’t feel that you have failed or something. Because you didn’t.

          If you feel some sort of societal pressure to “have a boyfriend” or “be married”, ignore it. It’s ok to be be single and happily sexually active. It’s no one’s business but yours.

          However, if you truly, deep down really really want an LTR, I think you really need to adjust your expectations of what an LTR really comprises of. Your guy will NOT forever “turn you on” the same he did when he was courting you. Once the sexual bonding has been created, it’s the compatibility and how you get along out of bed that determines how well your relationships go.

          That’s why Evan advocates compatibility over chemistry. After sex is no longer “new” to either of you, compatibility is king, not sexual attraction. (Of course you should still have sex, but it’s more relationship-maintenance sex than bonding sex, which is what I term the kind of sex we have during the first few months of a new relationship.)

        4. Emily, the original

          Christine,

          I’m just curious, what is it about a guy that made you decide not to see him anymore?  

          I never should have accepted the date. I think I did what you mentioned in your earlier post about swinging too far to the other direction and said yes to someone I had no chemistry with. We work together so I had had a few interactions with him before. He was extremely, sacchariney polite. It felt fake. I am going to get eviscerated for writing this, but the boy had NO game, and a man needs to have some level of game (at least for me). Everything he did was so … obvious. I just couldn’t muster any interest.

           

           

           

        5. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          I think you’re an avoidant, who loves  sex. Nothing wrong with that.

          There’s probably some truth to that. I laughed out loud when I read that. I have been reading a lot about attachment theory lately.

           

          I don’t think you really want an LTR, where you may have to make compromises.

          True, too. I am just starting to get an idea of how much compromise there has to be.

           

          There is nothing wrong with having a series of STRs … As long as you ACCEPT that’s what makes you tick, then you’ll be happy.

          Well, they’re not making me happy, or I wouldn’t be on this site. I want something more, but I’m not sure what yet. Plus, at my age (and I write only from my own experience), it is very difficult to find a quality candidate for an STR. Candidates, yes, but not someone who (sorry, we are going back to this) really turns you on. Why compromise on chemistry in an STR if the rest of the relationship will be … almost non-existent?

            There’s a happy medium where there’s enough compatibility and enough sexual attraction to make both parties want to pursue something deeper.

          That’s the question I have. How does that work? Let’s take everything else off the table. Lets assume the compatibility is high. How much do you compromise on sexual attraction? How much is enough? If you marry someone and intend to honor your vows, this may be the last person you have sex with for the rest of your days. Shouldn’t it be someone with whom the sex is really great? I mean, like, top 5% great …

    3. 34.3
      CaliforniaGirl

      Again, I really never heard any girlfriend saying she had sex after a month of dating someone. Maybe it happens somewhere but definitely not in SF or LA where I lived. Again, all my gilfriends are in their mid/late thirties and very sexual, noone will wait a month only to find out that a guy is a lousy lover or you are just not compatible in bed. And if a guy thinks I am too easy, well, then he is not for me, I have a very spesific sexual preferences and it’s a main deal breaker for me, I am not going to be with a man who doesn’t fit them and I usually can see it by second date. I don’t get attached to a guy after sex, it’s just sex and if it’s good, I want to continue our dating and surely it will be much more fun from now on. 🙂

       

      1. 34.3.1
        Theo

        I had sex within a month with every girlfriend since I was a teenager and now I’m appraoaching 50. In my opinion and experience, these things need not be difficult. If a woman finds the man she is dating attractive and boyfriend/husband material, she should gradually be more physical with him and, within one or two months,  have  sex with him, provided he reciprocates her feelings. If she does not find him suitable for a relationship, she should as soon as possible tell him that.   As regards sex itself, I’m shocked to hear that some men don’t give  their women oral sex… I thought all men did it, certainly all my male friends say they do. I agree that bad sex is a legitimite reason for a breakup; however, before dumping him/her I think the she/he should tell the partner what she/he needs and expects. The sexlife can improve!

        1. CaliforniaGirl

          The sex life can improve if there is a potential, if a guy is selfish, lazy or doesn’t like specific things I like, for instance, sex life is not going to improve. Same vise versa, I know guys that broke up with women because of bad sex.

        2. N

          “In my opinion and experience, these things need not be difficult..”

          This. When I stopped over-thinking and let go the “when and what if” and be my authentic self detach from the outcome; dating, sex, relationship became more organic, fun, liberating and empowering. N.

    4. 34.4
      Nissa

      The best way to know if a woman likes you is if she says ‘yes’ to going on dates with you, spending time with you, talking to you. After all, if she didn’t like you, she’d just say ‘no’ and date someone else. If you really can’t figure it out, you can ask a mutual friend or one of her family members. If it’s still a mystery after that, I assume she is just not that into you. Otherwise on dates you would see her smiling at you, enjoying herself, interacting throughout the date, touching her hair, smoothing her clothes.

      I would agree with Evan that: both genders dislike feeling like they are on an interview.    If one  is on a date, it would be great for that person to show interest in the person sharing the date with them.   Men do this by calling/planning/paying/general chivalry. Women do so by agreeing to the date, giving visual and auditory clues, or just being blunt by saying “I really enjoyed being with you today”. I do think it’s an ineffective strategy for a woman to be less than crystal clear about her feelings (such as finding him appealing) & intentions or to date a man once she’s given him a reasonable chance but still has not developed feelings for him. I believe that what makes a date is intention, whether it’s an intention to have a good time (of whatever variety) or to get to know someone. Either is equally valid. If your intentions don’t match, no harm no foul, just no more dates. Win-win.

      However, I never thought a man who did the reach or tried to kiss me was disgusting or perverted. I just assumed he had different dating expectations or moved faster than I did. It didn’t make him wrong for wanting something different. After all, isn’t that why you are on a date – to find out if you have matching desires in multiple places?

    5. 34.5
      Stacy2

      Ok, I waited for over 2 months to have sex with a guy I am in a relationship with. At some point he flew me to an exotic destination for a weekend and after a romantic dinner and walk on the beach  I kissed him goodnight, retreated to my bedroom and locked the door. Apparently, that had never happened to him before in his life and  a year later he still talks about that day and how he spent half an hour in a cold shower… There are many ways to signal your interest, I suppose  I do it organically when I am in fact interested (as was the case here): answer the phone when he calls/texts, always make myself available for dates,  dress up and look hot   – ie don’t show up in my work outfit and a ponytail, I would always be groomed and dressed to perfection, reach out to hold his hand at dinner, ask him deeper questions about himself, his interests, life, family, character etc.   then shut up and listen, some passionate kissing also took place.  Honestly, I couldn’t imagine  going out with a guy for 2 months if I didn’t like him  and wasn’t interested. Spending that much time with a person I don’t like would be pure torture. I don’t go out for free meals. Life is too short.

      1. 34.5.1
        Adreana

        I so agree it can be pleasurable for both! Waiting a bit longer doesn’t have to be “boring” or frustrating(   like kissing in the kitchen for an hour) lol gosh I would’ve  HATED   that too.      It’s all about heightening the senses and enjoying the person while you’re waiting for the right time. I enjoyed making out in the ocean,   whispering  flirtatious things   in their ear in a crowded room, driving them crazy on the dance floor (while other men watched and envied).It was pure electricity and I miss it so much! .)

        “Spending that much time with a person I don’t like would be pure torture”.

        This is how I am. I can’t even imagine going on a  second date with someone I’m not that   into-only reason if I see something there and I want to give him a chance. Also, if he’s a gentleman he will pay for the first 2-3 dates, but after that I’m happy to split the bill or alternate paying. We are not trying to use them or get free meals.

    6. 34.6
      GoWiththeFlow

      Adrian,

      Like Theo said, the best relationships I had weren’t hard in the beginning.   I had immediate reassurance of his interest.   The, “will he call me again?” period was very brief. Erotic/sexual activity increased as the connection grew.   Depending upon how well I knew the man before we started down the dating road, the amount of time to sex (oral and intercourse) was anywhere from immediately to 2 months.   The immediate guy I had been good friends with for two years prior to us going to the next level.   I don’t remember doing anything specific to let these men know I found him attractive.   It all just flowed.

      The worst entanglement (can’t call it a relationship) experience I had was where I offered intimacy because I thought it would create a relationship.   Spectacular fail.   The sex was mediocre at best since I was anxious about what was going on between the two of us.   I didn’t feel comfortable with how the “relationship” was going, nor did I trust him entirely with my feelings.   I was very young and he was a narcissist.   Big life lesson learned with that one.

      Like Stacy2, I try do dress nicely, and look sexy.   I look for opportunities to flirt.   If he plans and pays, I sincerely thank him.   I keep my phone in my purse on silent.   I pay attention.   I’m a touchy-feely girl so I tend to greet people with hugs and I’m all for good night kisses.   I will briefly rub or scratch a man on the upper back and when I lean in to talk, I’ll touch his arm or shoulder.   I compliment sincerely when an opportunity arises.

      As things progress I will say, “You’re so hot” or “I’m so attracted to you” when we are being physical.   By this time I have already cooked for him and planned dates as well.   I used to be in a MLB season ticket pool and had season tickets to the local Broadway play series, so professional baseball games and plays/shows were usually on the venue.

      Adrian, I hope that answers your question.

      Quick question for you and the other men following this thread.   When the question, “what do women do to make a man feel attractive, motivated to come back for more,” is asked, it is often prefaced with “Since he is planning and paying for dates. . .” I assume that means men have an idea of what they would like to get to make it a worth while date for them.   What makes a date worthwhile for a man?

    7. 34.7
      Christine

      Tom, why are you stopping at the tenths?   If your rating scale is so precise, why not let it go out to the thousandths, to really split hairs–like in gymnastics?   LOL–i.e. someone can be a 9.817!

      Well, as I’ve said before, I became much happier after I (finally) prioritized compatibility over chemistry.   I recall how I used to date alpha males that I had that crazy, obsessive “chemistry” for.   I would stare at my phone, agonizing over when he would text/call/email me next.   Every second that went by without contact from him felt like an eternity.   When he gave me attention, I would float on Cloud 9.   When he didn’t, it felt like the end of the world.

      Those “highs” were a very addictive feeling.   Now, in hindsight, I call these guys my “human heroin” (read that somewhere and think that’s an apt description).   Yes, they created “highs” in the moment, but were ultimately bad for me in the long run.

      Luckily, I met my guy after getting burned from types like that, and finally having enough.   If I had met him sooner, I might have (stupidly) dismissed him for being too “safe”, too “nice”, etc.   I always found him attractive (love his smile), was always happy to hear from him and always looked forward to seeing him.   And I won’t go into any detail (don’t want TMI LOL) but I enjoy the   physical side of our relationship.   Yet I somehow never felt that same obsessive feeling for him as the others.

      While some might interpret that as a lack of “chemistry”, I actually see it as a very good thing that he gives me a different feeling than exes who didn’t work out.   He’s more like a relaxing bath (whereas the others were more like stormy seas).   I think what created that “obsessive” feeling with the others was the roller coaster, he loves me/he loves me not dance.   Whereas with my guy now, I never really questioned his feelings for me because of his consistent actions.

      Actually, I really did have an opportunity recently to go back to one of those other guys I was obsessed over, when he contacted me by phone.   I ignored him and didn’t even try to respond.   I really am putting my money where my mouth is, by picking the 8 chemistry/10 compatibility guy over the 10 chemistry/4 compatibility one.

      1. 34.7.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        The people in happy relationships ALWAYS end up where you are, Christine, while the people who are single are the ones who spend an inordinate amount of time single and thinking that their chemistry will carry them for 40 years. It’s always interesting to watch the chemistry first people defend their choices – even though they don’t have partners.

        1. Christine

          Thanks Evan, I finally found the right person after getting it through my head what really matters. I went through a lot of mistakes to get here but thankfully learned from them. I couldn’t be happier now with someone who gives me both chemistry and compatibility (who I really do think I can grow old with)

      2. 34.7.2
        ScottH

        Christine-   have you read the book Attached?   It talks about the very things you mentioned and the conclusion Evan states in 34.7.1

        1. Christine

          ScottH, no, I haven’t read that book yet but it is on my lengthy list!   I’m sure I’d find it interesting, after reading other comments here about it.   I have this inkling that the obsessive feelings I had for the others weren’t healthy–and that I’ve made the right decision with who I’ve chosen now.   I prefer my mild ups and downs to the wild roller coasters I had before.

           

  15. 35
    Hildegerd

    Serously Evan, this was just creepy. Stop it.

  16. 36
    N

    This thread put a smile on my face. ☺ The anticipation of “thousand kisses on every inch of your body” ~J.O. is pure exhilaration!

    Now, the longest I waited to have sex with a man was 2 months. It turned out he has ED. Imagine my disappointment. But this is life. Take the good. Leave the bad.

    The soonest was unplanned 4th date sex within 1 week of meeting a man that could possibly be the The Last American Cowboy and The Mountain Man rolled into one, except, this man doesn’t own a horse. He showed up in a Ducati to pick me up. I was all dressed up! Well, if this is how he rolls, let me roll with it! I changed to my biker chick outfit 🙂 The evening was  filled with flirting, hot heavy kissing, sharing life stories, spontaneous slow dancing to Purple Rain in an empty parking lot, him showering me with compliments that albeit I’ve heard in the past all of a sudden coming from this man sounded and felt foreplay 🙂

    What warmed my heart though was a simple gesture he made when we went to buy my rescue dog an allergy medicine and chew toys. I was ready to pay when he said, “please let me, I would love to do it.. I need and want to protect, to provide, to care of you and everything you care about..” Coming from a respectable man was the ultimate foreplay 🙂

    We came back to my house, lay by the poolside and gazed at the stars. Surrounded by the string of lights and the reflection of calm water, it was nothing short of magical. And since I like to initiate sex, I looked at him and bantered, I hope you brought condoms 😉 He stood up and said, I’ll find a store. I asked, what’s that on your back? Oh, concealed gun. Is it loaded, I inquired. Of course silly, he replied. Well, prove to me later 😉

    The journey of finding the right man will never get old for as long as I shall live. Get out there and savor each moment good or bad. You will come back stronger, wiser, more confident, happier and content.

     

    1. 36.1
      Stacy2

      I asked, what’s that on your back? Oh, concealed gun. Is it loaded, I inquired. Of course silly, he replied. Well, prove to me later

      Unless I am missing some sexual innuendo here, this is where I’d be frantically thinking about how to extricate myself from that situation in one piece… indeed to each his own

    2. 36.2
      N

      Correction: should have read…”to care for you..” other typos I missed please bear with me 🙂

  17. 37
    N

    Stacy2–

    He has concealed-carry permit and sometimes carry a hand gun. Do I have an opinion about it. Yes. Is it a deal breaker. No. Do I feel safe around him. 110%. Will I let everyone I hold dear be around this man. No doubt.

    He and I have differing opinions about gun control but share an utmost respect for each other and our individuality.

    He is a stand-up guy. A true alpha male standing. Strong yet chivalrous and gentle. Focus, in control, a great leader and yet emotionally in tuned. Proud and confident but never condescending to anyone. I accept him for what he is including his concealed handgun. The bottom line. This man’s man picks up the phone (dislikes texting), plans dates and trips, honest, protects, provides, speaks his mind, open to suggestions and mentally, physically, spiritually fit.

    Absolutely. To each is own. 🙂

    1. 37.1
      Sacy2

      N, he sounds wonderful. Congrats on finding the right guy. After years of living in a costal city where you can’t even own a handgun, let alone carry or concealed, my perceptions are definitely skewed 🙂

      1. 37.1.1
        N

        Stacy2–

        Thanks for being gracious. I’m from NYC. When I moved down South for work I was shocked everyone I know owns a gun including my hair colorist. I’m the only one I know who doesn’t own a handgun and feel secure living alone ib my house with my adorable, friendliest rescue dog.

        I don’t think there will ever be a day I will feel the need to get a hand gun. With that said, I’m cool hanging out with gun owners. After all, it’s as common as owning a truck down here. 🙂

  18. 38
    Paul

    It might be possible that the patterns you describe exists across the population. However, I think it is also possible theses patterns don’t exist in the average reader of this site.   There are many populations and groups that do not seek sex as vigilantly as you describe.

    I know anecdote is not science (although there is peer-reviewed research to show similar). As a late 20’s male/chemical engineer I can say that many of the men i associate with are getting married or taking it more seriously now and these men often did wait months for sex, have low partner counts (less than 3).   More intelligent men are less likely to exude the patterns you describe (this has been shown in multiple peer-reviewed studies). More intelligent men have more to lose by getting into sexual relationships very quickly.   I have seen many men leave women who did not have sex with them only to go on to date another women who ALSO made them wait for a long time but eventually stayed with her.

    And if a girl   is of high value a guy will wait if he is marriage/relationship minded. I have NEVER heard of any guy saying….

     

    She’s really pretty, humble, poise, polite, compassionate, predictable, financially disciplined, passionate about her hobbies and has a nice singing voice but… ya know… i gotta leave her because she did not have sex with me in the same season we met”

    I have however HEARD….(well really similar at least)

    “she was not very interesting was slightly rude, told me my jokes were dumb, talked over me and when she was able to discern i was upset thought she could later make up for all her inconsiderate behavior and poor personality with sex.   It’s not a fair trade.”

    In other words i know of many populations of men who do not mind waiting, who intentionally restrain their sexual desires to further their career, research, and knowledge. Although most of these men I will say did make marriage a priority and are not dating soooo….

    Then again intelligent men are significantly more likely to be married and stay married so maybe they are not an average reader of this site. However, I think more women read your site and are searching for ways to secure a marriage minded man who is intelligent……

    1. 38.1
      Tom10

      @ Paul #38
      “More intelligent men are less likely to exude the patterns you describe (this has been shown in multiple peer-reviewed studies)”
        
      Would you care to support your bold claim by posting some of the “multiple peer-reviewed studies” for the benefit of readers?
        
      “More intelligent men have more to lose by getting into sexual relationships very quickly.”
        
      How so? How does a man’s intelligence affect what he has to lose by getting into a sexual relationship very quickly? Unless you mean that  he risks  impregnating an unsuitable woman which  exposes him to loss of  resources?
        
      Paul, as a chemical engineer, surely you’ve heard of CONTRACEPTION?!
        
      “intelligent men are significantly more likely to be married and stay married so maybe they are not an average reader of this site”
        
      Again, evidence?
        
      And btw the target market of this site is intelligent, successful women, therefore, um yes, it is reasonable to assume that the average male readers of this site are also somewhat intelligent (although I’m sure many of the female readers would dispute this!).
        
      Paul, when you make bold claims linking a man’s intelligence to his sexual proclivities without actually substantiating these claims it makes me think that the “intelligent” guys you mention (of which you are one of course?) don’t actually choose to abstain, rather that they actually lack the ability to get “into sexual relationships very quickly”, and then they post-rationalize this inability as a choice in order to further their career.   Ha yeah right!

    2. 38.2
      Karl S

      I know anecdote is not science (although there is peer-reviewed research to show similar). As a late 20’s male/chemical engineer I can say that many of the men i associate with are getting married or taking it more seriously now and these men often did wait months for sex, have low partner counts (less than 3).

      I know quite a few people in science and engineering myself and you’re not wrong about them being more marriage/long term minded, with fewer sexual partners. However, just because they’re intelligent fellows it doesn’t follow that their behaviour stems from their intelligence. Correlation does not equal causation.

      There are many intelligent people in the arts and music world who engage in experimental, risk taking behaviour. A willingness to follow impulses is not linked to a lack of intelligence. Similarly, I can imagine a lot of type A personality law students and business entrepreneurs with high sex drives who have long list of partners.

      Your drawing your list of intelligent people from those in academia. The traits your ascribing to intelligence as a result is skewered.

      1. 38.2.1
        Karl S

        *edit – you’re drawing, you’re ascribing.

  19. 39
    Michelle Williams

    Kissing on the first date gets complicated for me because I’m trying to follow Evan’s advice about being more open to different kinds of guys looks-wise and going for the 7 in looks, 10 in compatibility, etc. So the attraction could be more of a slow burn and take a few dates to figure out. But maybe I’m going too far to the other side if I don’t want to kiss someone at the end of a first date (not because of principles but because I just don’t feel attracted enough?) Is that normal?

    I usually go for a midweek drinks date to keep it low pressure so it’s not always intuitive to kiss anyway when thinking about staying under the limit and getting home for work. I had a second date with a guy last night, but throughout the date I knew I just wasn’t attracted to him physically and nothing was going to make me. We had an awkward moment when he went for the kiss and I gave him the cheek. I do want to give these guys a chance, and I feel bad that I’m not attracted that way to some of these guys who are obviously good catches, but in the end I know that great sex with someone I’m attracted to is part of the reason I want a boyfriend…I don’t need another good guy friend I don’t want to sleep with, I’ve got plenty of those!

    1. 39.1
      Emily, the original

      Michelle,

      Kissing on the first date gets complicated for me because I’m trying to follow Evan’s advice about being more open to different kinds of guys looks-wise and going for the 7 in looks, 10 in compatibility, etc.

      Bingo! That’s the conundrum. If we are to prioritize compatibility over chemistry, the desire to get physical with someone will take longer, if it happens at all … and, according to this post, the guy will get frustrated.

    2. 39.2
      ScottH

      I almost never kiss on the first date.   Sometimes on the 2nd, even as late as the 4th.   if it doesn’t feel right, don’t do it.

    3. 39.3
      Shaukat

      If you aren’t attracted enough to these guys to kiss them then they likely aren’t a “7 in looks” to you.   I can’t think of any woman that I would rate a 7  who I would  not want to kiss. So you might be compromising too much on physical attraction.

      Unless, of course, you’re really picky and only find the ’10’ men attractive:)

      1. 39.3.1
        Emily, the original

        Shaukat,

        “I can’t think of any woman that I would rate a 7  who I would  not want to kiss.”

        Wow. That sounds like a really large number of chicks that would pass your test!

        Unless, of course, you’re really picky and only find the ’10’ men attractive:)

        I don’t rate on looks. I rate on attraction level. And a 7 in attraction is rare. Very rare. I probably haven’t experienced it this calendar year, if we are only counting men who are available.

      2. 39.3.2
        Emily, the original

        Shaukat,

        I work with a guy who has been telling me for months he is thinking about asking a fellow co-worker out. He changes his mind weekly — one week he is really leaning toward making a move, the next he has decided not to. He can’t decide how interested he is. I said, “That’s the mindset a lot of women have when they say yes to a date. They’re on the fence.” He seemed surprised by that, but I think it is common. Can you see then why a woman may not want to kiss a man on the first date?

        1. Shaukat

          Hi Emily,

          My comment was actually a response to Michelle’s post. She stated that she’s been giving the 7/10 guys a chance, but that it takes her awhile to decide whether she considers them attractive enough to kiss. So I was simply asserting that if I went on a date with a woman I considered a ‘7’, (and I’m also referring   to overall physical and sexual chemistry) then I would not hesitate to kiss her. Now whether that turned into something more serious would, of course, depend on other factors.

          I don’t at all expect a woman to kiss on the 1st date. I realize that’s rare. However, I am surprised to hear that you rarely find someone who you would consider a 7. Maybe that has to do with basic differences between men and women when it comes to mate selection and sexual attraction, as per the Ok Cupid study everyone here likes to cite. Or maybe it’s just because I live in a big city:)

           

        2. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          However, I am surprised to hear that you rarely find someone who you would consider a 7.

          There are about   3 men I work with who are attractive. One, yes, is probably a 7, whatever that means because I don’t use a numbering system. The other two are probably tens. They could model. They are nice to look at and several of the women and I ogle them collectively as a group. (Yes, women do that!) But the man I am actually most attracted to is probably a 5 looks-wise. Very average, although having all your hair and being in shape past about 40, both of which he is, probably ratchets you up a point or two. It’s all relative.

          But that’s it. It’s slim pickings, and, yes, I live in a small town.

  20. 40
    Evan Marc Katz

    Just received this from a Love U Graduate with a new boyfriend. Thought it was relevant to this discussion. The people in question are in their mid-late-40’s.

    Over dinner, (my boyfriend) shared with me how he knows he made the right choice asking me to be his girl. I was so amazed at what he shared, I wished I could’ve tape recorded it!   Here is what he shared about himself as a man, and also about men in general on dating:

    1)   He loves the fact that I never threw myself at him.   He said guys can pick up those signals a mile away and it turns off just about all of them (the good ones at least)

    2)   If he got any inclination on the date that she wasn’t into him (she was acting cool/aloof), he would not call her again – EVEN IF HE REALLY LIKED HER AND HAD A FUN DATE

    3)   He loves the way I make him FEEL – handsome, sexy, manly, in charge

    4)   He loves the way I make him FEEL in our relationship – appreciated, supportive, fun and playful

    5)   That usually men who show up with gifts on each date (Thomas!!) know they are “dating up” meaning that they are trying to win the heart of a women he feels is out of his league

    6)   Some men will buy gifts for women on occasion, but not as a dating ritual (that gets expensive!!)

    7)   That just about every guy e’s talked to in his life want to have sex with us before they commit to BF/GF.   Some will be willing to wait until after, but said not to take it as if he’s not into you if he does want/need it.   Guys who have particular sex habits or a high sex drive will often want to make sure that aspect of the relationship is solid before they commit to you (because good guys take those commitment seriously)

    8)   He LOVES that I called him pet names (cutie, handsome, sexy) since we began dating as it made him FEEL like I would be fun, easy and playful to date.   He loves that I still do, and now that we have had sex he says that the way I do it is awesome.

    9)   He also loves the playful banter with him from the beginning of dating.   Even if we weren’t having sex (during that period of time), he loved that I was playful and “went there” a few times (even if I drew the line and stepped back over it).   It showed him that I would be a good match sexually for him.

    So, although Evan has shared all of this with us at some point, I felt it was necessary to share again.   I think as women we have often been taught to “act cool” (I sure was, as were all my friends).   This is clearly the wrong approach to take as this is not the first time I have heard these things from guys (just not as succinctly as he expressed them).

    Love on!

    1. 40.1
      ScottH

      I wish there was some way I could reach out to some of your graduates and some of  the people on your blog.   too much liability I’m sure.

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