How Fast Should Men Go Sexually?

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Men look for sex and find love. If we can agree on that, why is it so surprising to some women when men try to kiss (and more) on the first date? In this episode, I’m going to give you the lowdown on what men are really thinking and the definitive sexual pace you should move at if you want to keep your spark and get a boyfriend.


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Comments:

  1. 41
    ScottH

    #2 above- how could he really like her and have had a fun date if she was cool and aloof?

    1. 41.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      That’s the point, Scott. Men don’t LIKE cool/aloof, so don’t be that way. Don’t play hard to get. Act warm and interested and flirtatious. It’s what I coach. My client is just validating that her boyfriend agrees.

      1. 41.1.1
        Ser

        What if the girl is kind of innocent and inexperienced as I am? I’m not a good flirt nor do I know how to give pet names, etc. I can be very shy and cautious in the beginning so I might come off as uninterested, but it’s because I’m a little nervous.

    2. 41.2
      Christine

      Scott, I think there are certain men who like women who play “hard to get”.   However, I think that those men are usually not the ones who are really looking for a serious relationship.   I could see those types of men liking a cold and aloof woman, as a “challenge” for them to conquer. But then, once they feel like they’ve “got” her, they lose interest and move on to the next conquest.

      However, at least in my own experience, commitment-oriented men don’t tend to like cold and aloof.   So it really depends on who and what you’re trying to attract.   If you’re trying to build intimacy and an emotional connection, I don’t think being cold and aloof will do it.

      1. 41.2.1
        Karmic Equation

        It’s interesting to read about “cold and aloof” women on dates. I tried to think back to how I was on dates. I would say that the more attracted to my date I was, the more I laughed and joked with them. The less attracted, the less I joked with them, but I was still friendly and engaged. The only time I could have been termed “cold and aloof” was when a guy showed up on our date, 20 minutes late and then was 50# heavier than in any of his pictures. (I was always thorough at looking through all the pictures in a guy’s profile.) – I was kind of p.o’d, tbh.

        If women are aloof on dates, I’m thinking that they’re not attracted and the guy should cut the date short if he feels that.

        On the “hard to get note” — I think that’s a different thing than “cold and aloof”. I don’t believe that only men who want a challenge go after the hard to get. I think it’s more that men like to know that a woman he’s interested in has a life and that she has boundaries. In the early stages of dating, if a woman already has plans, she shouldn’t break them just to date the guy. She should tell the truth and say “I have other plans that night, can we do it X-day instead?” And if the guy says, “Oh, that’s the only night I have” — sometimes HE’s playing games to see what she’ll do. When that’s happened to me, I said, “Darn that is too bad, how about a week from X day?” And if he’s interested, he’ll help reschedule.

        But the important part is not to set the precedent that he’s so important to you that you’ll rearrange plans for him. One time, I had decided that on a particular Saturday night, I would stay in and just relax. So that Saturday, I was in my jammies all day. And the guy I was interested in, texted at about 745pm to see if I wanted to meet up, and I just said I had plans (which I did, which was to NOT go out!) — He accepted that answer. We eventually became bf/gf. I didn’t hurt my chances with him by sticking to my decision (of not going out when I really wanted to once he texted! lol). I happen to think that because I had boundaries and lived within them, that HELPED us get into a relationship. YMMV

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          KE,

          When I hear that a woman/women are “cold and aloof” on dates, I wonder if nervousness, anxiety, or introversion were the issue.

          As for playing hard to get.   It may work for a very attractive woman who is interested in a 9-10 level guy who has a lot of women orbiting him that are highly ingratiating and accommodating.   The HTG behavior makes her stand out from the other women.   Beyond possibly getting her noticed, I don’t think deploying HTG tactics get her much.

        2. Karmic Equation

          Hi GWTF,

          There is a fine line between “playing” hard to get and “being” hard to get.

          The former has no life and no boundaries and just trying to play a game.

          The latter has a life and stands her grounds on boundaries, even if it’s just with herself.

          Both can get some guys, but only one is authentic.

          The distinguishing thing “thought” that’s different between the two, is that in both, the woman really wants to date the guy. But in the former, she’s ALREADY setting the precedent (before they’re even in a committed relationship!) that she’s willing to turn herself into a pretzel for him. In the latter way, she’s learning to maintain her independence DESPITE her (almost agonizing) desire to be with the guy.

          The latter teaches a woman self-control, the former doesn’t teach her anything, but does teach the guy that she values HIM more than herself, not a good precedent to set.

          The main difference between what a woman wants and a man wants from a relationship, is that a woman WANTS to be the center of a man’s universe (except that when she IS his center, that usually means the MAN has no life and often becomes her stalker when things don’t work out. Men who make a woman the center of his universe are usually controlling and possessive, as well as jealous. We really really don’t want that!).

          However, for men to REMAIN interested in a woman, she has to remain a bit out of reach. She CANNOT be his 100%, she has to reserve 10% for herself. And she has to NOT feel selfish about that. One easy way is to indulge in a passion or hobby that does NOT include her husband/bf. Sometimes it’s just as easy as taking a “me” day, like going away on a spa retreat for a day or a weekend.

          If you haven’t already, read Esther Perel’s “Mating in Captivity” — she talks about “total transparency / intimacy” killing the “spark”  in relationships. I absolutely agree with that assessment. A man loves a woman more when she keeps a little bit of herself to herself, where he can’t reach her. She maintains her “otherness” in this way.

          And, imo, the woman who maintains her 10% independence, if you will, she has an easier time recognizing the relationship’s boundaries (whether she’s being lax or whether he’s overstepping) — and has a much easier time distinguishing what is a “dump him” behavior from a “bite-tongue/roll-eyes and let it   go” behavior 🙂

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          KE,

          I finally read Mating in Captivity recently after having it on my kindle forever.   Some of what she wrote brought up a lot of memories of things my mom and grandma would say when I was too young to really understand it all.

          My mom routinely waited until my dad was out of the house for a several hour time block to do her beauty routine stuff, like coloring her hair, soaking her dentures, putting green goo on her face etc.   When I asked her why she did this, or teased her about it, she would say, “Romantic illusion will fade on its own, but that doesn’t mean you need to singlehandedly destroy it.”

          My grandma used to talk about how people had so many “expectations” compared to back in the day.   She would say that when she got married, she was prepared to be part of a team, but she never expected my grandpa to be everything to her every moment of every day.   My grandpa wasn’t a big talker, he was a quiet man.   My grandma loved company and conversation.   She had a few close women friends, one her sister, that she had very emotionally intense relationships with through decades of life.   They also had separate hobbies.   My grandpa would spend hours on woodworking, my grandma gardened and loved flea markets and antiquing.

          As for acting vs. being hard to get.   The problem with advising women to be HTG, having boundaries and a full life, is that women are told to act HTG, i.e. they tell people they are busy when they’re really sitting at home stewing over their single status.

        4. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          However, for men to REMAIN interested in a woman, she has to remain a bit out of reach. She CANNOT be his 100%, she has to reserve 10% for herself.

          I actually like that behavior in a man. They shouldn’t give everything away within the first few weeks. I lose interest if I know every little thing he is going to do before he even does it, and we’ve only been dating a month.

        5. Karmic Equation

          I wouldn’t advise women to lie about their busy-ness 🙂 That IS playing. I know, I know, staying home when I wanted to go out SOUNDS like playing games. But it was not. I had determined earlier in the day that I was going to stay in and relax. To that end, I spent the day in my jammies. No shower. Just being totally lazy. So when he texted, I would have had to spend 1.5 hours getting ready, which I didn’t want to do. Too much work!

          That was when we were in the “courting” phase. Once we were in a relationship, I did rearrange my time around his schedule, most of the time. I just asserted my independence in other areas.

          The point is that a woman SHOULD live a full life, not put it on hold for a man. However, if she’s really home “stewing” that she’s single, then she should go out on the date. But if she’s home because she earlier in the day she decision to have  a date with Ben & Jerry’s and was happy with that decision, then she should KEEP that date. It’s a mindset thing. She needs to teach HERSELF to maintain reasonable boundaries.

          I have this thing I believe in…If I’m just starting to get to know man, and miss him a lot, and am craving a connection via phone call or text, I do NOT contact him. Some women would call this not calling him when I want to, “playing games”, but I do not. I call it exerting self-control. And it is beneficial for two reasons:

          1) If I can exert that kind of self control when I’m craving his company, I can exert self control in biting my tongue later on. And controlling my insecurities and anxieties that go along with a new relationship (if it ever gets off the ground) will be a piece of cake compared with controlling that my behavior when in that “craving contact” stage. In fact, that day I turned off my cell phone and took a nap because I really really wanted to text him and forced myself not to. I was so relieved when he contacted me. We had a 2-3 sms exchange and we both felt better for it, I’m sure.

          2) I believe that if the connection is real, that as much as I’m missing that man, he is ALSO missing me in the same way. And this has held true in my subsequent relationships. I think it was in Sherry Argov’s “Why men love bitches” book where she wrote that “Women fall in love in a man’s presence; men fall in love in a woman’s absence.” Men may not know what “love” is, but they understand and put a lot of stock in his “missing her” feelings. If a man misses a woman, that is his clue that he has feelings for her and usually is the impetus for him to seek a relationship. Men don’t like that “missing her” feeling, trust me.

          That’s what happened with my current bf. There was one day during our courtship when I almost went crazy  craving to see him. And after we became a couple, I told him about that day and he said that yes, that was the day he missed me a lot too. (He’s not smooth, so he wasn’t just saying that to mollify me. In fact, he doesn’t have a filter. So he just says what he feels regardless of how rude it could sound to the other person. lol. — So I knew he was telling me the truth, cuz he just blurted it out that he did miss me that day.)

    3. 41.3
      GoWiththeFlow

      ScottH,

      Women do get mixed messages about what they should say and how they should act with men:   Play hard to get vs. be upfront about your interest in him.   Usually, instead of it being such an either/or thing, we have to navigate a path between differing sets of needs and expectations.

      For instance in the list above how does a woman find the sweet spot between #1 not throwing yourself at a guy and #2,3,4 making a guy feel that you are interested in him, appreciate him, and find him attractive.   Another concern is figuring out the right time to have sex with a guy.   Too early and you run the risk of being dismissed as girlfriend material.   Wait too long and he may consider you a prude and walk.   The right behavior with one guy can be the wrong behavior with another, so a woman can feel she’s trying to hit a moving target.

      BTW, for #7 above.   I have never met a guy who ever said his sex drive was anything but strong 😉

      1. 41.3.1
        ScottH

        Hi Go

        I believe Evan is one guy who says that his sex drive isn’t that strong.   There are definitely guys out there whose drive isn’t as strong as some women’s.   Mine has tapered off at my age (52) but I’d say it’s tapered off to a comfortable and reasonable level.   I doubt many men would admit to having less than a strong drive just because it goes against the very basic  essence of being a guy.

        As far as navigating a path between differing sets of expectations, that applies to guys too and in so many areas of life.   I’ve adopted the philosophy that you can’t do the wrong thing with the right person (one of Evan’s sayings).   Also, if you are left wondering about certain things and have to google certain behaviors, it might not be right.   If you like each other, little stuff just doesn’t matter and the couple will make things work out.   I just met someone recently and asked her to see me again rather soon.   I was wondering if it was too soon but hey, she wanted to see me too and it worked out.   This is how it’s supposed to be.     (I met 4 women in the last week, whew…. )

        BTW, I’m reading a great book, Getting to Commitment by Steven Carter.   His books are the best therapy I’ve ever had and I’ve had a lot!!!   I highly recommend this book for anybody in the dating pool.

      2. 41.3.2
        HH

        Too early and you run the risk of being dismissed as girlfriend material

        Only by a sheep-minded person who isn’t really “boyfriend material” himself.

        I know what I am talking about.

         

  2. 42
    Karmic Equation

    @Emily, (starting new post since the other one is getting so long 🙂 )

    “That’s the question I have. How does that work? Let’s take everything else off the table. Lets assume the compatibility is high. How much do you compromise on sexual attraction? How much is enough? If you marry someone and intend to honor your vows, this may be the last person you have sex with for the rest of your days. Shouldn’t it be someone with whom the sex is really great? I mean, like, top 5% great …”

    I was friends with a man for about a year and a half before he asked me out on a date. I thought he was funny, kind, mature, sincere. I thought he was attractive, but he wasn’t the kind I was typically attracted to. So I knew he was bf material, but I was uncertain of my attraction for him, so I thought I’d give it a go. On our first date, we had a great time, he picked me up, took me to dinner, then we went karaokeing at two different places (we’re both pretty good karaoke singers and that was how we met). Anyway, since I already knew a lot about him, and already knew he had great bf qualities, I spent the date asking myself, “How attracted am I to him?” “Can I see myself french kissing him?” — Maybe. “How would I feel if he touched me intimately?” — Alright, I guess. “How would I feel about touching him intimately?” — Couldn’t answer that one. So I’d say it was really a no, but I didn’t want it to be a no since I knew he was such a good doobie.

    We had a second date. Less formal, met for drinks and apps. While we were chatting away, I studied him and tried to imagine being intimate. My mind kind of rebelled. I wasn’t repulsed by him at all, as I thought he was attractive, though not “my type.” But I couldn’t picture myself being intimate with him. There was no date 3. Just the way it goes. I didn’t feel badly about it. Sometimes there isn’t that click.

    Now the boyfriend before him. I remember the first moment our eyes met. He was the bartender at a new bar I decided to try out. He carded me. Looked at my license, looked back up into my eyes, and held my eyes a little longer than was decent, and said “Wow, you look amazing.” (What was unspoken was “for your age” lol which was 45 at the time). I felt like someone had punched me in the stomach. Instant attraction. But I was humble. I figured he was saying that to get a bigger tip. So I smiled, thanked him, and then ignored him for the rest of the night. Eventually he did become my bf and sex with him was amazing right up until we broke up. However, our relationship out of bed was rarely comfortable. It was very roller-coastery. The very opposite of ALL the other relationships I’d ever had before him. While I always recall our sexual chemistry as a 10, our relationship-chemistry fluctuated between 3-7. It was never a 10. Our relationship lasted about 14 months. I missed him terribly when I ended it, but I was also more relaxed. I was tense during our relationship and very not-me-like throughout it.

    Current boyfriend. I noticed him as one of the few guys in the pool room I frequent that I didn’t know. I thought he was “interesting” looking. About 3 months after I first noticed him, we finally spoke. And after the ice was broken, he made a point of saying hi to me whenever he saw me, and after league, he would shoot with me until the pool hall closed. During that time, he morphed from a stranger that was interesting looking to a man I found sexually attractive. He also morphed from a stranger to someone I thought was a good person, since as we were shooting pool we’d make small talk and asked each other questions about work, family, hobbies, etc.

    Now I think he’s soooo handsome. And sex with him is good. It was never a 10, but I enjoy sex with him. When he wants sex, I’m happy to accommodate. Our relationship outside of bed is great. We literally spend every non-working hour together. A few fights here and there, that were easy to resolve.

    Do I miss the 10 sex? No. Did I miss it when I was single and not having any sex? You bet I did! lol

    Did I miss the roller coaster relationship? Not a bit.

    And if someone were to offer me another 10-sex and 5-7compatibility relationship, would I want it. NOPE!

    Would I miss my current 6-7 sex and 9-10 compatibility if it were to end? Absolutely without question.

    If you think about the amount of time a couple spends having sex (after month 3, when you’re rarely banging like rabbits anymore and have settled down into a routine), let’s say 4-5 hours a month, and compare it to the all the awake time a couple spends together NOT having sex, which in our case is about 71 hours/week, 284 hours/month, you can kind of see why it’s more important to have out-of-bed-compatibility than a sizzling 10 sexual chemistry.   Simply because the amount of time you spend in each aspect is not even close. 5 hours of 10-sex would not make up for 284 hours of time spent in a mediocre relationship.

    Find a process. Date, ask yourself if you can see yourself having sex with him. Ask yourself if you like him as a person. Then if/when he kisses you, ask yourself how you feel about that. Does it feel good? If good let it continue. Physical chemistry does NOT have to be amazing for you to have a good relationship. However, if you have a good-to-great relationship, if sex is “just” good and not “amazing”, you won’t care. But you’ll definitely care if the relationship is mediocre even if the sex is great. (Isn’t that where you often ended up at and why you’re on this board?)

    1. 42.1
      Emily, the original

      Karmic Equation,

      Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response.

      However, if you have a good-to-great relationship, if sex is “just” good and not “amazing”, you won’t care.

      Yes, I would care. At this point in my life, I still want the sex to be great. I’ve experienced really great sex with two men, and I am hoping I have at least one more experience like that ahead of me before I get off this planet.

      But do I think about having a quality relationship?   Yes. Like I do a 401K. You mentioned societal pressure to be married or have a boyfriend in your earlier post. That doesn’t so much concern me as the way society is structured and what it values. I don’t have children (didn’t want any) and almost no family.  Friends aren’t people you can really expect anything from. So if you don’t want to spend most of your time alone, a partner is really your only option. As I get older, it is something I am seriously considering. Reading other peoples’ experiences on this blog has been informative and helpful. I live too much in my head and tend to get too myopic in that I assume everyone experiences things like I do, which is ridiculous. But I agree with you completely. For a long-term partner, you want a quality person with good character.

       

       

       

       

       

       

      1. 42.1.1
        Buck25

        Emily,

        I don’t know exactly what “at this point in my life “is for you, but I know at this point in my life, I’d want great sex too, and I’d want my partner to feel like she was getting the same. My experience has been that great sex is part chemistry with that partner, part emotional bond, part skill, and just as important, both having the willingness and the desire to make their partner’s experience as wonderful as possible. One thing both men and women sometimes fail at is that last-valuing their partner’s satisfaction as much as their own

        1. Emily, the original

          Hi Buck25

          The great sex comment was in response to Karmic Equation talking about the compromise necessary for a long-term relationship. I think she said with her current boyfriend the sex is a 6-7 but the compatibility is a 9-10.   I responded that I am not yet ready to make that compromise. I am still holding out for a 10 sex. I’ve had it twice in my life. It’s not a common thing and not easy to find. (I’m talking about the kind of sex people write novels about.   🙂   )       When I get that out of my system, maybe I’ll be ready for something with a little more depth.

      2. 42.1.2
        Karmic Equation

        Emily,

        How many LTRs have you ever been in? Let’s define LTRs as exclusive relationships lasting more than 2 years.

        I’ve been in 3 LTRs (11 years (marriage), 6 yrs, 4 yrs) and been in 3 STRs (14 months, 11 months, 8 months). And the current relationship is at 14 months. There were a couple  ONS and FWBs sprinkled in between.

        In all of them sex always started out hot (except one, but that one became the hottest but  also the least safe-heard-understood relationship I’ve ever been in).   TBH, if you really just want hot sex, FWB is better than an exclusive relationship with hot sex.

        Because the problem is that after 3 months into a relationship (prob 6 months real time, 3 dating no sex, 3 exclusive with sex), sex is no longer “novel” with our partners, and the novelty was a factor in what made the sex hot in the first place. So novelty wears off and sex is less hot. Meanwhile, we start noticing more of our partners faults. We notice our incompatibilities more. And if you can’t compromise on accepting those faults or overcoming the incompatibilities, it makes for an unsatisfying relationship at best. Or you cut and run because you realize he can’t meet your needs either in or out of bed anymore.

        In an FWB relationship, you’re only in it for the sex, so the both parties usually make sure it is as hot as possible for the other so they can continue with the FWB set up. And usually FWB is infrequent. You see each other infrequently. Thus you have sex infrequently. Thus the sex remains novel for a longer period of time…and extends the hotness of it. And because it’s FWB, you don’t concern yourself with the other parties faults or incompatibilities, because after all, you don’t have to live with any of it as that is not the nature of the relationship.

        STRs morph into LTRs when  both parties accept that the decline in the hotness of sex is offset by the increase in compatibility (through compromise or natural selection or pure blind luck 🙂 ). Hot sex cannot be sustained over 40 years. I submit that it can rarely be sustained over  40 sexual episodes. lol

        You can have great sex at the beginning of any relationship, short, long, or NSA.

        However, if you want an LTR, you need to accept that even if you still get the same great orgasm from your guy, time after time, year after year, that orgasm, while “great” when your relationship was new, becomes “good” over time.

        Time does more than heal wounds. Time changes our perspectives on things. Remember when you turned 21 and how great it was that you could finally drink legally? Do you even think about how great it is you can drink legally now 20 years later? Do you think about that milestone at all? No. It’s just something you accept as normal.

        That’s what I mean about “not caring”. If you’re in a good relationship, time  reprioritizes what’s important in the relationship. Sex will still be important, but it’s not what you’re thinking about as being important. You’ll only notice if sex goes missing or changes to bad. But if it remains good but  never be great again (or maybe occasionally great, due to different venue or learning a new position, etc) — you’ll be ok with the “just good” sex. As long as the relationship is still good. If the relationship turns bad, you might think that the lack of “great” sex made it bad, but that wouldn’t be the truth.

        Let’s put it another way:

        1) Good relationships will survive with good sex.

        2) Bad relationships can  survive with great sex. But great sex cannot be sustained over time, so this kind of relationship rarely lasts. Or if it does, it’s probably those love-hate relationships we know about.

        3) Bad relationships may survive with good sex. But there will be an expiration date.

        4) Good relationships may survive with bad sex. But there will be an expiration date.

        5) Bad relationships will NOT survive with bad sex.

        1. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          First of all, nothing I wrote to Buck25 about your original comments to me was a criticism. I actually quoted your verbatim.

          In all of them sex always started out hot. Don’t agree. I’ve had relationships that the sex started out at about a 5 or 6. It was fine. It was pleasant, but rarely great. For me, just two situations were “great.” And they were great from the get-go. One was a FWB; one was a STR.

          And usually FWB is infrequent. I’ve had a FWB who I met up with one to times a week. Like clockwork.

          TBH, if you really just want hot sex, FWB is better than an exclusive relationship with hot sex. I never said I was looking for a long-term relationship. I said I had one great sexual experience left to satisfy and THEN I would look for something more serious.

        2. Karmic Equation

          Hi Emily,

          I wasn’t criticizing you when I asked about your LTRs. I asked because it seemed to me that you hadn’t had any and seem to have unrealistic expectations of how sex and LTRs interrelate.

          “Don’t agree. I’ve had relationships that the sex started out at about a 5 or 6. It was fine. It was pleasant, but rarely great.”

          If sex was merely “pleasant” in the beginning then why did you enter the relationship? You shouldn’t stay in relationships where sex is NOT hot at the beginning. At the beginning, sex SHOULD be hot, but compatibility might be lower. If the relationship is a good relationship, the compatibility GROWS even as the sex becomes less hot. If you have less-than-hot-sex at the beginning, it’s only going to get less hot not more hot over time. That is a complete waste of time.

          “For me, just two situations were “great.” And they were great from the get-go. One was a FWB; one was a STR.”

          And these make my point. FWBs and STRs tend to be hotter than LTRs. STRs usually end when the hotness wears off and one or both partners realize that the other isn’t compatible. That’s why they’re short. FWBs stay hot because of the infrequency and lack of commitment. Who cares if neither are compatible with the other. There’s no pressure to become compatible.

          As I’ve said previously, just looking for great sex is fine.

          But great sex and good relationships aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s just great sex can and will become less great over time in a good LTR. Emphasis on “good”. Also  “good” usually doesn’t become bad sex over time. “Pleasant/fine” sex only remains pleasant and will never get to “good”. Shoot for good/great sex and good/great compatibility. Any combination thereof will make a lasting relationship. Meh sex/meh relationship will never work. Neither will pleasant/pleasant.

          Again, not criticizing your history, but am criticizing your thinking process about LTRs and the relevance of “great” sex in that context.

        3. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          FWBs and STRs tend to be hotter than LTRs. Not necessarily. Sometimes, the FWB sex is just convenient.

          FWBs stay hot because of the infrequency and lack of commitment. I’ve had 2 FWBs in which we met up at least once a week. To me, that’s not infrequent.

          If sex was merely “pleasant” in the beginning then why did you enter the relationship? You shouldn’t stay in relationships where sex is NOT hot at the beginning. Pleasant may have been the wrong word choice. But just because the relationship is new does not mean the sex is hot. Sometimes it’s a 7 or 8 but you really like the person and have a mental/emotional connection. Have you ever read Helen Fisher’s stuff? She wrote that sex and love are governed by two different parts of the brain. Sometimes, you can have average sex with someone you are madly in love with and fantastic sex with someone you barely like. My point was that a 10 sex is rare, even in the beginning of a relationship. For there to be a 10 sex, you need a 10 sexual attraction/chemistry and a high level of sexual compatibility. I haven’t been with that many people where the chemistry was a 10 and I immediately dug what they were doing physically.

          For some reason, you keep circling back to the LTR. Again, I’m not looking for that right now.

  3. 43
    Isa

    From the tenor it seems as if since a man is paying for dates, women ought to give them sexual favors?   Last I checked that was prostitution.   Now, that is a perfectly reasonable profession, but I’m not sure prostitution training school will stand you in great stead as a wife.

    I never had a problem attracting men who were willing not to push incredibly hard sexually (after I explained it made me uncomfortable), nor have my sisters.   The point is to just look at communities of men that come from more traditional societies or religions.   Pretty easy pickings if we are talking about Orthodox Jew, Muslims, Rad-Trad Catholics, etc.   As for countries, everywhere that wouldn’t be considered a western nation, so Africa, Asia, South America, and especially the middle east and North Africa.   You also get the benefit of learning another culture and having bilingual children.

    As with life, it is about identifying the pool with the best opportunities and diving in.

  4. 44
    Gabe Asher

    The more I am into a girl, the longer I will wait. Never longer than say, six dates, even for my ‘dream girl’.

    BJ thing is a non-event for me, as I want to see her naked. Very important for me. I’ve clicked with many girls and after seeing them naked/having sex with them, I became uninterested. I want to get to that ‘make or break’ part quickly, so we don’t waste eachothers time.

    1. 44.1
      Bailey

      you sound like a real prize

    2. 44.2
      JLB

      And how do you feel about her if every other guy she dates does the same thing as you?   1-5 dates and she’s having sex, then moving on if they don’t like it.   Wow.

      1. 44.2.1
        Buck25

        @JLB

        Or moving on, if SHE doesn’t like it. Same difference, and I’m perfectly good with it, either way. I’m not saying we need to jump in bed on a first or second date (probably not the best idea from either perspective), but at some point, when we’ve figured out that we’re interested enough in each other to want to try being exclusive. I think it’s reasonable to for me to know what kind of lover she is, and for her to know what kind of lover I am. Why? Because sexual compatibility’s an important part of a relationship, and if we’re not good for each other in that department, we both need to know that, as soon as we’re both comfortable finding out. Is that an emotional risk? Yes, and so is everything else in a budding relationship.

        1. JLB

          Buck25 I agree with you, but that is not what the OP said, he said by date 6 so he doesn’t want to waste time if it’s not good for him…if you are at the point of wanting to be exclusive, and both parties are ready to take it to that level.   I agree it is very important and also realize it is no guarantee either.

  5. 45
    Buck25

    Gail,

    Very thoughtful post, and (in my opinion) a reasonable and very healthy attitude. Good for you!

  6. 46
    J

    I don’t consider blowjobs the same as sex.   It’s foreplay.   My body doesn’t bond and crave a man after a blowjob, like it does after sex.   That’s not to say that I give blowjobs out to every man I date.   But it’s a way to have fun and increase the tension without getting too involved too soon.

  7. 47
    Monica

    How about this as a compromise, Evan? A man can pay a hooker for blow jobs and sex while he gets to know a woman and she gets to know him. A blow job IS sex and if he needs his needs met before he even knows what my favorite movie is or how I take my coffee, I am better off alone. No one is ENTITLED to sex. For me, it is the expression of love and if a man doesn’t love me, he isn’t seeing me naked. If that means I am alone, then so be it but that is a sad statement about men.

  8. 48
    Tyrone

    Monica

    It’s sad  that you think a man wanting to have sex with a woman that he likes is sad. Evan never said you had to do anything that you weren’t comfortable with. It shouldn’t be a shocker that men like sex and bjs. And if you don’t feel comfortable doing those things until you and the man are in love, that’s fine. But it does mean that you will probably have fewer options. No one is entitled to sex with you. And you aren’t entitled for anyone to wait for your love before sex. My take away from the podcast is that we need to find middle ground. Because if you genuinely like a man, it’s not all about you and your feelings. You need to accommodate for his and vice versa. See things from another point of view. The blowjob thing is just an example.

    The point is to figure out a way to show/express interest in some type of an escalating way so that both parties know things are continuing to move  forward. If he wants to move forward sexually and you don’t, where are you willing to bend with this? What is your compromise solution? Or does he have to just go along with whatever you decide no questions asked? If it’s the latter, it’s more likely that the guy will just go date another women – not get a hooker and keep hanging out with you. Like Evan said, you can say that it’s the guy, that it’s an incompatibility issue. But if you find it happening over and over, it could be your process that is incompatible with the majority of other people’s. Nothing is wrong with this. But you can’t go around saying that other people are sad because of it.

    1. 48.1
      Adrian

      Tyrone said, “does he have to just go along with whatever you decide no questions asked?”

      This was my only point in the other post about the three controversial issues Evan brought up. We all know that men will go along with women’s wants as to not be labeled negatively, but where is the equal exchange if relationships (even in the courting stages) are about BOTH people?

       

      That is all I was trying to ask?

      You and others were looking too closing at the blow jobs, the kissing, and the giving of one’s address, while I was mainly focusing on the intent of the woman to give something to man as well as receiving from him; a desire to make it fun/pleasurable for him.

      1. 48.1.1
        Tyrone

        Adrian

        I see what you are saying. I was focusing more on those because you specifically mentioned  them so I apologize.

         

        I think that in the very beginning it’s going to be a one sided event in favor of the woman’s wants. She has already initially started receiving if we assumed he asked her out and paid for the date. If she is into him and wants to keep him around, and loosely using those three examples, she’ll have to concede them in some matter to accommodate for his feelings and let him know she likes him.

         

        If I had to pick a “when” I’d say it should happen when she decides she wants to see the guy more because of genuine interest. I consider first dates more of a meet and greet. So it doesn’t bother me if a woman doesn’t want to kiss, touch, etc. But if we agree to a second or third date, she should concede in some manner in order to express her interest. If she isn’t willing to kiss, maybe something like a long hug or hand holding might be a workable compromise. That’s the give and take. But as the relationship progresses, so must the expression of interest – no one likes being stuck in the hug zone!

         

        If we are talking about things that make one uncomfortable, your comfort level should increase over time if you are interested in the person you are seeing. You may have to give more, particularly if you are the party that has been holding back. And I think that we can generally set somewhat reasonable expectations for this. This is where it gets kind of iffy and person specific.

         

        But if the person in question only sees things from their point of view, they may think that the somewhat reasonable expectations of others are completely unreasonable and just get upset. And that isn’t helpful in finding a relationship. But it is that person’s prerogative – man or woman.

  9. 49
    Kendra

    My best friends (2) and I all went through divorces at same time, 3yrs ago. None of us gave expert or very often bj’s while married. Since divorce, we talk about it, learned how to by online tips, and have really tried to b good at it! I enjoy giving it my all if I am highly interested in the man. We have experienced that it does bond him to you, when u may want to move on, he will come back! One friend has had a few stalkers! Also have found they almost always want to return your efforts! We like knowing we are skilled at it and it gives you confidence! Especially since we barely did this activity in our marriages! It is easy to tell if they only want you for this purpose or something more meaningful! Also, at my age (40’s), some men also have missed out on this in unloving relationships as well! It is good health to have this, mutually, my friends and I agree! A glass of wine is helpful!!

  10. 50
    HH

    Funny how people tend to assume that it will be the man who’ll want to go “fast” and the woman will, at best, acquiesce… 🙂 I am actually smirking here – hence the smiley – because the last time I had sex, a few weeks ago, it was I who seduced a man, openly proposing sex, even before a first “date”. (We had only met the day before.) We kept seeing each other for about a fortnight;   then I had to return to my country. We’re still in touch, though.

    And BTW, I am in my fifties. 🙂

    But then, I have always  slept with people on the first date, with no pressure imvolved, because if I am interested in a man enough to kiss him (and I wouldn’t go on a date if I weren’t), I might as well go all the way. All of those men (not very many, in total) developed warm, tender affection towards me, fast – which is not really surprising if you know men… and if you aren’t a cheap, vulgar type of person. It’s all down to that: the kind of person you are, the kind of interpersonal dynamics you manage – because there is nothing cheap or vulgar in sexual availability, or indeed, uninhibited sexual self-expression,  per se.

     

    P.S. This being a love or/and marriage-seeking community, I might add I didn’t fall in love with any of them, even though I did date two of them for several years, so we were a “couple”.

     

  11. 51
    Nicole

    is there a transcript for this podcast?   I’m deaf and can’t understand this.

  12. 52
    Natalia

    I have come across Evan’s blog two years ago, and since that time I swear by his teaching and recommend it to everyone. Evan, you have really uncomplicated my dating life, and I am forever grateful! I have followed your advice, and now I have a great man in my life and I am very happy.   However, I am really perplexed after reading this  discussion.

    Like many other women here,    not in my worst nightmare would I see giving a man a BJ before we become fully intimate and he treats me like his girlfriend. I would never equate a BJ to paying for a date 1, 2, 3 or 4.   To me, a BJ is way more intimate than  sex. It’s definitely only for boyfriends, and only after a relationship has reached a certain  level of intimacy and trust (let’s say, sadly some x-BFs never even got there).    I also do not kiss on a first date, particularly if my date is from a dating website. In  those  few years  I heavily  dated, I would sometimes have first dates with 2-3 new men in a week. That would be  A LOT  of frog kissing, if I had followed  the  kissing advice! First dates were just to meet face to face and decide if we wanted to have a second date. More than one guy confined in me afterwards, that they could not read whether I liked them or not on a first date, and it made them nervous and more interested. I also always waited with sex at least until after a date 3, and never had  sex with a man when I  was  at his place for the first time. These are not some inflexible rules I follow; this is just what makes me comfortable and makes me feel I can trust a man. I am very surprised to hear that a man would not want to wait this long (and 4-6-8 weeks is not that long!). I dated men in their mid-40 to mid-50, and every man that liked me waited patiently until I was comfortable with moving forward. I have only dated educated successful men. Not sure if that had something to do with their patience. I did come across some other men, who were fickle and/or insisted on  having sex after date 1 or 2 and made sure they did not invest much of anything into me prior to sex, but I considered those men way below my league and was not interested in them. I am well familiar with pickup teachings and techniques and I am not impressed by any of that.

     

    I do have to say I do not live in LA, thank goodness! I also grew up in another country and was not conditioned since middle school years to see BJ as not a sex act. I am pretty but not a 10 beautiful; and I am sweet, considerate, affectionate, classy and sexy, as my men say. In my experience, if a man likes you or is intrigued by you, he’d wait withouth any BJs.

     

    1. 52.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Natalia, as long as what you’re doing is working for you, keep doing it. If not, that’s what I’m here for.

  13. 53
    Jennifer Oneal

    What if you give a man oral sex that’s HIV POSITIVE ???? Evan Marc Katz, have you also advised women to ask for brand new STD blood work results ??????

  14. 54
    Evan Marc Katz

    Single in the City, to be clear, you’re suggesting that “guys act like adults” means “guys moving at the same sexual pace they did in seventh grade.”

    I’m suggesting that this is not particularly realistic. There has to be some middle ground between kissing and intercourse. If you insist on sticking with kissing for a month, that’s your right, but a lot of men are going to get frustrated. That doesn’t mean they’re “not adults,” but rather that they have their own pace/timeline that differs from yours. Doesn’t make them wrong.

    The best daters (male and female) are the ones who give their partners what they desire. You want a man who calls, plans, pays and follows up? He wants a woman who finds him attractive and acts on her attraction towards him. That’s not really news. Whether you choose to participate in this is your decision.

    Finally, as to your claim that “most women simply don’t enjoy giving blow jobs,” I’m not sure if that’s a personal anecdote or a scientific one; all I can say is that in the last few years that single, I didn’t have intercourse with ANYONE I was casually dating, but I did stick around on third base with quite a few. From my vantage point, it didn’t seem like I was getting “obligatory” or “mercy” blow jobs, but then, I assumed that if it was consensually taking place, the act itself was consensual, not coerced.

    As always, if what you’re doing is working for you, keep doing it. If not, perhaps my explanation will give you another path. Best of luck either way.

    1. 54.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I would shy away from getting exclusive sooner because in my research, you have MUCH more information as to whether he’s boyfriend material after six weeks than you do, say, after two weeks. Go around the bases for a month before committing to intercourse, rather than sleeping with a virtual stranger who decides to call you his girlfriend in a fit of passion.

    2. 54.2
      Marika

      Wow, you have a LOT  of friends who you’ve openly discussed blow jobs with, Single! I’m going to go out on a limb and say ‘hundreds’ is possibly a slight exaggeration to prove your point..?

      Consider me on the opposite side of that. If I like the guy, find him attractive and he’s enjoying it, going downtown for me, is a pleasure and a delight. I know I don’t speak for all women and I’m sure that some don’t like it, but I personally find it hard to believe that hundreds of women have told you they don’t like it (and hundreds of men have told you that women they dated don’t like it).

  15. 55
    Sylvana

    ok … I’m confused. Don’t have sex with him too early, but don’t wait too long. Sigh. It seems like there’s no winning this game. Yet giving him a BJ is all right? Because he’ll respect the woman giving him head   so much more than the one sleeping with him.

    I think if a woman takes too long to decide if she wants to sleep with a man, she needs to evaluate why that is. If the length of time is out of the norm due to her own personal standards, she should inform the man of that right from the start, that way he can decide if he is all right with it or not. If not, they both need to find more suitable partners.

    Personally, I think way too much emphasis is put on the whole sex thing. If the chemistry is there, have fun. If not, move on to someone you have chemistry with. I would never consider anyone for a serious partner if I didn’t know for sure we are sexually compatible. I’m an addict, so the man needs to be able to keep up, and needs to be rather kinky and creative. One would think that would be easy to find, but it turns out a lot of men talk a big game, but do not deliver.

    But whether you’re on the highly sexual spectrum, or the less sexual spectrum, sex is a big (although definitely not the most important) part of a relationship. There is no use getting to a point where feelings are involved before you find out you are not all that compatible. I’d rather get that part out of the way earlier on.

    As a high testosterone woman, and a sex addict, I fully understand the need for release. Still, to suggest men are owed sexual satisfaction because they paid for dates is ridiculous. That is straight up reducing women to hookers. If they’re not all right with waiting any longer (and – lord forbid – can’t use their own hands for a while longer), they need to stop dating that person. A woman that reserved will not change that much in a relationship.

    As much as women will likely roast me for this, but their hang-ups about sex will not be so easily overcome just because they date. Once again – find a man more on your level of sexuality, or with a more compatible attitude.

  16. 56
    Princess Buttercup

    How about some downtown action for the ladies? I don’t want to get into a relationship with a guy who thinks I should blow him but doesn’t want to reciprocate. This “try it before you buy it” mentality goes both ways. Show me a good time, and I don’t mean bowling.

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