Am I Asking You to Change Your Personality Just to Catch a Man?

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I launched Love U in June and it’s been an incredible success. 300 women are half-way through my six-month video curriculum, which walks you through everything you need to know to create  lasting love: Confidence, Meeting Men, Dating, Understanding Men, Relationships and Commitment. The women who are currently in Love U also get access to weekly coaching calls and a private online community where I offer dating advice each day. The Community is a lovely, tight-knit place, and the women there are wonderfully transparent and vulnerable, which is about all I could  ask from coaching clients.

But, like any relationship – especially one conducted virtually – there was a growing disconnect between me and one of my Love U students, which manifested itself in a long, respectful tirade posted a few weeks ago. I’ve seen criticism of my views from anonymous strangers before, but I’d never before had a client who expressed such great displeasure with her perception of my coaching philosophies.

With her permission, I’ve decided to share the transcript of our conversation, since I feel that it is relevant to anyone who regularly reads this space with the belief that I give men a free pass and try to “change” women. Maybe – just maybe – you’ll be able to see that pretty much all of my advice is universal and is only targeted to women because women are my paying customers. If men were my paying customers, they would get largely the same exact feedback. Anyway… please meet my friend, Olivia.

Evan, looking for guidance here. I feel like I’ve learned some good and helpful stuff in Love U:   moving on, not hanging around if a guy isn’t stepping up, not putting up with jerks, understanding that the guy who ditches me in fact, by definition, isn’t my guy at all, no matter what sort of moony thoughts I may have.

But I also feel like I’ve learned a lot of stuff that just feels almost insurmountable taken in total, and also…a huge amount of effort that will yield…what, I’m not sure.

What I’m saying and what you’re hearing are two very different things.

To wit (and hear this not as angry, but just incredibly overwhelmed):

  • I must be attractive, and this is a biologically driven need for men and something I can’t question.   I don’t know, a lot of people say that racism is evolutionary and biological, and aggression and violence are evolutionary and biological but no one says that we should just accept those things or that people shouldn’t be nudged to think a little differently…?
  • I’m supposed to not be insecure even though my husband will spend the rest of our married life checking out other women.
  • I’m supposed to be confident even though with each passing year I will have less of what he biologically must have to satisfy his drives.
  • I have to talk to men in a certain way or they won’t find me appealing.
  • I should praise them a lot, even if its stuff that doesn’t seem particularly praiseworthy.
  • I need to flirt even if that is unnatural for me.
  • I should know how to traverse the sexual tightrope between frustrating them inadvertently or giving them too much too soon inadvertently.
  • I have to control the pace of the relationship because they can’t do that.
  • I have to understand that whatever they say to me right now, in the moment, may change tomorrow, and that that is just how it is, and it shouldn’t hurt my feelings.
  • I should be empathic to their challenges, even if they aren’t empathic to mine.
  • I should change my physical parameters even though they’re unlikely to change theirs—because their parameters are evolutionary/biological in nature.
  • And I’ll need to keep this up for my married life if I want to remain married.

I’m not sure I can actually do all these things.

It looks exhausting, and no fun.   What is the upside, besides getting laid, since I earn my own living?   Is the man who requires all this care and feeding just to date me a man who can be emotionally supportive? If I have to do all these things to “catch” a man, will I really end up with someone I can be myself with?   Can I manage this without becoming someone I’m not, and without becoming resentful about the amount of effort required?   Its no one’s problem but my own and I know that Evan would say I’m free to give up if I want. I am actually a naturally nice, empathic, kind and supportive person, but it feels like I’m supposed to become the perfect reembodiment of Marabel Morgan, and that I’ll end up with a 3rd grader who wants sex all the time — to use an extreme representation of things that have been said here about men, not of things I actually had thought about men.

-Olivia

My response:

I am about to settle into a quiet evening with my wife but I could not go to bed with this hanging over my head.

First of all, Olivia, I’m really sorry you feel this way. I’ve heard this reaction before, and I will admit, it never ceases to surprise me. What I’m saying and what you’re hearing are two very different things. So let’s just acknowledge that what you feel is real and you’re entitled to it.

Next, you’re brighter than I am, so if I say anything that sounds like the tone is wrong, please forgive me. I’m not talking “down” in any way; just trying to respond quickly to all the things you wrote:

But I also feel like i’ve learned a lot of stuff that just feels almost insurmountable taken in total, and also…a huge amount of effort that will yield…what, I’m not sure.

We’ll tackle whether it’s insurmountable. We’ll also get to the point (love, marriage, happiness!)

I must be attractive, and this is a biologically driven need for men and something I can’t question.

Yes, that is correct. Similarly, women need to be attracted to their partners. That’s universal, not gender-specific.

I’m supposed to not be insecure even though my husband will spend the rest of our married life checking out other women.

That’s right, because he’s chosen you to marry. So why be threatened by the likes of Kim Kardashian on the Internet?

You should be the best person you can be, since you can’t control what anyone else does.

I’m supposed to be confident even though with each passing year I will have less of what he biologically must have to satisfy his drives.

You sort of make it sound like all men must date supermodels or be miserable. Go to a mall. Look around at the couples holding hands. How many look like supermodels? So evidently, people manage to pair up and stay married into old age even though pretty much all of us look worse as we get older. My wife and I are both 15lbs heavier than when we got married. Both of us can easily point to more attractive people. And yet neither of us would consider leaving because physical attraction is only a small (but important) part of marriage.

I have to talk to men in a certain way or they won’t find me appealing.

Yes. Then again, don’t men have to talk to you in a certain way as well? They can’t be arrogant, rude or condescending. They shouldn’t be negative or nakedly insecure. They shouldn’t blather on about themselves without taking an interest in you. It would seem that there are certain characteristics that make all people unappealing, no?

I should praise them a lot, even if its stuff that doesn’t seem particularly praiseworthy.

Yes. Just like you’d want your partner to tell you that you looked beautiful with no makeup. Or that he’s impressed with how you navigate university politics because he’s terrible at such things. Or because you’re better at color coordination than he is. PEOPLE like to be praised and appreciated.

I need to flirt even if that is unnatural for me.

I would think that men who don’t flirt are often considered awkward and Asperger’s-like. Maybe typical engineers or math nerds. Doesn’t mean they’re bad people or bad partners. Just means they’re not going to get as much female attention as a man who conducts himself with confidence and sexual energy. People who flirt are likely to appear more open, happy, engaging, charming, sexual, etc. As such, flirting is a good skill to have. Doesn’t mean you’re sunk without it.

I should know how to traverse the sexual tightrope between frustrating them inadvertently or giving them too much too soon inadvertently.

It’s not that you “should know”. It’s that I’ve attempted to explain how — in successful partnerships — BOTH parties get what they need at a reasonable pace. If a man demands sex on Date 1, he runs the risk of alienating you. If you demand that he put a ring on your finger before sex, you run the risk of losing him. My suggestion is to proceed slowly over a month before having intercourse and most men will stick around. You don’t have to follow this suggestion. It’s just a suggestion.

I have to control the pace of the relationship because they can’t do that.

I’m not sure if “they can’t do that” is the way I’d put it. I would just say that most men pursue sex before they know if they have feelings for you, and regardless of whether they’re looking for commitment, so it’s in your interest to manage things to your own favor.

I have to understand that whatever they say to me right now, in the moment, may change tomorrow, and that that is just how it is, and it shouldn’t hurt my feelings.

Anyone  can say the same thing. Girlfriend told me she loved me on Week 2. Dumped me on Week 12. Being “in the moment” is what we all do. I’m just reminding you of this, so that you don’t get too surprised when things that seem promising don’t work out.

I should be empathic to their challenges, even if they aren’t empathic to mine.

You should be the best person you can be, since you can’t control what anyone else does.

I should change my physical parameters even though they’re unlikely to change theirs—because their parameters are evolutionary/biological in nature.

You should act in a way that is “effective” to getting the relationship you want. If you would rather be single for the rest of your life than date a guy less than six feet tall, for example, that’s your business. Just know that only 14% of men qualify. Furthermore, nobody said women don’t need attraction or that men’s parameters are evolutionary in nature. That’s your interpretation. Men are designed to reproduce and crave variety. So are women. But men have more testosterone so they seem to crave it more. Please don’t make attraction into some black and white thing I’ve never said.

And I’ll need to keep this up for my married life if I want to remain married.

Yes. You should keep up being a feminine, optimistic, confident, understanding, self-aware person for your married life — both for your sake and for his. And if you find that your man is not an equal partner, you should get rid of him, ASAP.

It looks exhausting, and no fun.   What is the upside, besides getting laid, since I earn my own living?   Is the man who requires all this care and   feeding just to date me a man who can be emotionally supportive? If I have to do all these things to “catch” a man, will I really end up with someone I can be myself with?  

Here’s the upside.

In other words, my dear Olivia, I have not asked you to do anything particularly unusual. I haven’t asked you to make any colossal shifts. I haven’t asked you to do anything that I wouldn’t tell men to do (if I coached men).

Confident beats insecure.  Trusting beats jealous. Warm beats cold. Engaging beats shy. And so on and so forth. Not sure what there is to argue with.

As I’ve said, your reaction to me is somewhat common. It usually comes from strangers who hate me on the Internet, however, not from clients. It seems to me a very negative, glass half-empty, black and white, twisted reading of the coaching I offer, as if I’m asking women to contort  themselves into a pretzel to “catch” a man, when, in fact, all I’m telling you to do is carry yourself with a deep reservoir of inner confidence. My guess is that this is the disconnect. If you’re really insecure and don’t think you’re “good enough/attractive enough” for a man, you’re going to have a very negative reaction to my stuff, which  is benign at worst and incredibly empowering at best.

Reread everything you wrote and I wrote above. 90% of this applies to men as well. You’re just getting very angry/upset/overwhelmed that I’m telling YOU to be an amazing partner instead of telling it to MEN.

Great partners are great partners, regardless of gender. Love U hopefully points out some of the blind spots and hypocrisies that I’ve observed from women who expect men to do everything perfectly, but aren’t always ideal partners themselves. But make no mistake, if I could make a living doing this for men, I’d do it. Sound advice is sound advice.

Confident beats insecure.  Trusting beats jealous. Warm beats cold. Engaging beats shy. And so on and so forth. Not sure what there is to argue with.

Hope this helps reframe things — both for you and for all the women in here who agree with you. I am positive you are not alone, so I appreciate you bringing this up.

All my love,

Evan

Immediately, a few dozen other women replied to Olivia with similar posts.

Michelle:

Men are visual. If they see a pretty girl they will look. Men will approach the most attractive woman in the bar first. None of us can change this. Relationships begin and end. None of us can change this.  But if you manage your life as though “Love, what is it good for?” then you will never find a man who will ever inspire you. Who will challenge you. Who will accept you as you are.  Water sinks to it’s level. Meaning the men who will be on your level are out there. And no, you won’t have to play at being a Stepford wife in order to attract him and keep him interested. And I am pretty sure if I was a guy, I’d be pretty insulted.

A lot of what men need costs the independent woman so little, it begs the question…”Why are we fighting so hard to NOT give it to them?”…Basically, treat men as male friends and people.   Expect to be respected. Expect to be considered and if that isn’t happening after explaining your standards, you have the right to leave.  

Men have needs. Women have needs. All Evan is trying to teach us is how to communicate ours and listen to theirs. There is no one way street. You must remember this. It’s not us against them. We  are all in this together.  

You will have interactions with men who don’t know what they want. You will have interactions with men whose emotional intelligence is extremely low. You will run into men who have no emotional intelligence at all. And you know what else? You will survive them. And meet the men who understand where you’re coming from and want to heal you as you heal them. And be better for it.

Tina:

I feel for you sister! I don’t want to address all your points except to say that men are NOT in LoveU. We are. They are not taking the time to improve their skills at dating. We are. They are not learning what to appreciate in a mate. We are. They are not learning to be better partners. We are.

There are just not enough men that are as self aware as women are. We can find fault in the whole gender, hold out for the “unicorn” of men that gets what we do, or we can accept it and work with what we have. I think we have to work with what we have. OR, we can decide that’s it’s not worth the effort…

Gem:

Think about it this way – you’ll give your ALL to him, and he’ll give his ALL to you. It’s a relationship of  constant giving back and forth. A man who only considers his own needs isn’t a worthwhile partner for anyone. Reading Evan’s blog has shown me the number of women who “tolerate” this kind of man, and that’s very unfortunate.

Men looking for love are more accepting of imperfections than we think. Or you can say they’re as “equally limiting” as women, yet in other ways. With height, education, etc. requirements. Most of the population will get married at one point in their lives, so there is something happening, right? 😉

One thing about being around men is that they believe likewise with women. That women expect them to be an embodiment of perfection, and any guy who isn’t in the top 20% of looks, intellect, prestige, wealth, etc. can not find a suitable partner. I’ve met guys who are insecure and worried about not making “The Cut”. They’re not tall, built, handsome, charming, Alpha, etc. enough.  And some are rightfully concerned.

What I have realized over time, is that regardless of gender, many are seeking the same thing – love, acceptance, and intimacy. Sometimes, I forget about this message, as I venture into more female-dominated spheres. But when I go back into male-dominated fields, I remember the men too are so  incredibly human and diverse just like us.

They worry about their performance in the bedroom, their ability to provide and protect – however it means in modern times. When either of these factors come into question, they wonder if they’re enough to “catch” or please their woman. To find a sense of belonging. Or if they’re “man” enough to be respected.

Women can be a tough crowd to please, just in the same way that men are. Our mate standards for others can be impossibly high, yet we simultaneously hope that someone else can accept our characteristic flaws or imperfections. People – male or female – can struggle with setting reasonable expectations. But the ones who find a real love, are the ones who compromise. Everyone has to compromise in some shape or form.

Clara:

”Being nice is not incompatible with maintaining boundaries. Nice people can voice their opinions, stand up for their beliefs, and even disagree, but nice people do so with kindness and grace. Nice does not mean answering ‘yes’ to all requests. Rather, nice means turning down the requests you cannot meet respectfully.”

I know this is a lot of stuff, but I wanted to print this, in full, for those who were interested, to give some depth and breadth to this never-ending conversation.

I have been a full-time advocate for women for 13 years now, and it kills me when so much of my good-faith, commonsense wisdom  is twisted into something sinister.

Admittedly, I  only have two broad pieces of advice:

    • 1. If you don’t like the way he’s treating you, leave.   If he’s selfish, abusive, a terrible communicator, or commitmentphobic, dump him now, instead of staying, complaining and trying to change him.

2.  If you’re concerned that you may be doing something “wrong” that is causing men to react negatively to you, there are some “best practices” that may serve you well. These “best practices” are consistent whether they’re applied to women or men. In short:

You will attract more flies with honey than vinegar. People want to be appreciated, accepted and admired. People want to feel safe, heard and understood. People like being trusted, not mistrusted. If you want to be understood, first seek to understand. Don’t make your  partner “wrong” for having a different point of view. Don’t sweat the small stuff or make mountains out of molehills. Choose high-integrity, low-drama partners based on character, not chemistry.

I’m not exactly sure what’s controversial about that, but, sure enough, some of my own clients seem to think that I’m holding women to a higher standard than men.

It’s just not true.

I give advice on  how women can be more effective in dating, for one reason and one reason only: because I am a coach for women.

If I were a coach for men, I’d say the exact same things (and more). But I’m not. So I don’t. Yelling at me for not giving men advice on how to change is like yelling at a vegetarian restaurant for not serving burgers. It’s just not what we do.

I give advice on  how women can be more effective in dating, for one reason and one reason only: because I am a coach for women.

Listen, reasonable people can disagree  and you are certainly allowed to ignore or dissent with anything  you read on this blog. But please: don’t impugn my integrity, cast aspersions on my character, or willfully misinterpret things I’ve written. I work far too hard at providing rational, balanced, objective dating advice based on the Golden Rule than to have my own readers think that I’ve got an axe to grind against the very gender I’m trying to help.

If you made it this far, I appreciate it. You’re a champ. Thanks for listening to me vent. I appreciate your readership and hope that you continue to come back each week to contribute to the  most intelligent relationship conversation on the entire Internet.

Your thoughts, below, are appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 21
    MilkyMae

    If a man asks out twenty women and is rejected twenty times, we call him a frustrated chump.   If a woman rejects twenty men, we assume she has the world by the you know what.   A man who rejects twenty women is called gay.   Adult women receive subtle social praise by being choosy.   We evaluate men by results and women by feelings.   Telling women do something in order to get results is hard on women because it does not help the feeling part of the equation.     This is very insidious because eventually the unsure, icky feelings of a “dating”   grow and being choosy tends to feel better.

  2. 22
    S

    I have a different take on it.   I remember when I finally saved up enough money to buy Why He Disappeared. I had been so curious about this disappearing man syndrome.     I read the book and it didn’t resonate for me.   At all.   Others read it and were so inspired but not me. It was like I could see the logical sense of Evan’s advice, the left side of my brain saw it, but nothing about it reached my heart.   And since this is about matters of the heart, I couldn’t really access what he was saying in a way that would work for me. I’ve tried. I read this blog. I’ve peeked in on his forums, and I’ve listened to many of his recordings.

    Evan’s not the coach for me and that’s okay.   Doesn’t mean what he says is bad or wrong, just how he says it doesn’t reach me. It doesn’t mean I gave up on love. I found other coaches.   Same message, different voice.   That’s what I need sometimes. Tough love doesn’t work on me.   I’m a yoga person, not a triathlete (though one can be both).   Slow change is what works for me and it comes from within.   If someone had told me, ‘S, go to yoga twice a week for six months and you’ll find peace you’ve never imagined.” I wouldn’t have done it.   Why? Because I wasn’t ready. I told myself that and I still wasn’t ready.   For me, the best advice comes from within or when I’m ready to hear it.   Otherwise, yes, following someone else’s advice feels heavy, unnatural, and exhausting. Even if what they are telling you is the absolute truth. I remember pushing my own self to go to yoga when I was tired or injured or just didn’t want to go.   I was lucky to have four free private yoga sessions and my teacher told me that’s not what yoga is about. It’s not about pushing yourself at all. If you’re tired, sleep. If you’re hurting, rest and heal.   All you’ll do is set your healing back even further by pushing yourself when you’re not ready. You do have to learn the difference between that and hanging back out of fear or lack of discipline.   I’m still learning this difference.

    Evan is a like a personal trainer for one’s love life.   Before one hires any person like this, one has to access whether one is ready for the changes one is paying someone to help with. You have to decide whether your styles match.   Most women I meet aren’t strong, successful women. They are successful but maybe not with money. They are quiet, funny, attractive, warm, loyal women.   Maybe not Evan’s demographic (maybe they are, I don’t really know), but these are real women I know.   It’s not that women can’t be these things, but there is a disconnect when you are doing it because it’s you and you want to and doing it because someone says you have to.
    Guess what? There is still time to find love.   As long as you’re breathing, it’s not too late. If Evan’s message and style resonates for you, great.   If what he says feels like it’s not a match for you, find another dating advice person that fits you better. Take breaks.   Relax.   I know it’s difficult. Sometimes the biological clock is beyond ticking.   Sometimes you’ve had a narrow brush with death and want to live life NOW.   Sometimes you just see the other half of your life looming with you in the rocking chair alone. I understand these feelings, I really, really do. But we’ve got to take the strong spirits we do have and get good hold of those fears and not act from them. Men can totally sense when you make decisions out of fear.   And it doesn’t feel right within you to do so, either.   A man I met from a dating site and spoke to on the phone yesterday said I sounded so cheerful in my emails.   I am cheerful.   I’m attractive, warm, and content.     And still meeting men, though not many of them.   This is just my opinion. This is what has worked for me. Evan, Olivia, and the rest may differ.   This is how I found my peace with dating.   If love happens, it happens. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. Sometimes I date and sometimes I don’t. A long as I have my peace with myself and how I walk with the world, that just has to come first.   At least for me.   

  3. 23
    Kitty

    Well.   It looks like almost everything has been said that I’d say.   But I almost never completely lost for words 😉

    1. Although some people do this to a greater extent than others it is pretty clear that everyone values youth, beauty and sex appeal in prospective partners.   Even people who are, by market value standards, aren’t young beautiful and sexy themselves.   I think the best thing all of us can do is to not take it personally and move on to new dates who will appreciate what we have to offer.   We’ll all end up old, fat, and bald if we live long enough.

    2. It sounds like some people have internalized bad habits and bad attitudes and decided that those qualities are their personalities.   It might help them to look at these habits and attitudes as coping mechanisms they picked up along the way rather than immutable elements of their souls

  4. 24
    Cat5

    “If you’re really insecure and don’t think you’re “good enough/attractive enough” for a man, you’re going to have a very negative reaction to my stuff, which is benign at worst and incredibly empowering at best.”

     

    I find this a fascinating and self-serving statement. So only insecure people are going to have a negative reaction to what you say.

     

    I waiver on you and your advice Evan Marc Katz.    It’s statements like this that really cause me to waiver.    It’s wholly unnecessary to your post, very off putting, and has bald factual statement that cannot be proven one way or the other.    Why even include it?

    1. 24.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I included it because I meant it. The people who tend to react the most negatively are, in fact, women who are insecure and have made such poor relationship choices that anything resembling “advice” rubs them the wrong way.

      For example, let’s say you are the “perfect” woman. You chose an asshole guy who was verbally abusive, commitmentphobic and ultimately cheated. Then I give good, solid, commonsense advice: be warm, trusting, open, positive, and giving. The initial reaction? “Fuck that guy! I was the PERFECT girlfriend. The only problem is MEN!”

      Is my advice bad? Is it one-sided? No and no. It just means that, for that woman, in that instance, the only thing she did “wrong” was to choose the wrong man.

      But guess what? Why did she choose the wrong man? That’s right. She’s insecure. She has low-self-esteem. She has shaky boundaries. She values chemistry over compatibility. Secure women don’t put up with bullshit from men.

      So all of my advice tells women to be A) Confident and secure and B) Warm, nurturing, supportive and understanding. They’re BOTH good pieces of advice that work like a charm. But you can be the perfect woman but if you consistently choose the wrong men, no dating advice will help you.

      In other words, I stand by every single word that I’ve written and feel quite strongly that your reaction to me says a lot more about you than it does about anything I’ve said – which is, on the surface, commonsense, evenhanded advice. So let’s pay attention to who yells at me the most: women who have been wronged by men and want to blame men for wronging them – so that any advice that tells her how to do anything different will often fall on deaf ears because “men!”. Sorry. I don’t have much patience for that.

      1. Choose better men.
      2. Be a better partner to ensure that the better men want to stick around.

      Change the genders and it’s the same advice. I’m just a coach for women. That’s why my advice is for women.

      And, as always, Cat5, if you waver on me, I take no offense and wish you all the best of luck in the future. But I will always defend my integrity and logic, because it hasn’t failed me yet.

  5. 25
    Cat5

    What about my question would have offended you or impuned your integrity?

     

    I asked a question about a statement you made that you cannot prove because you only have antecodal evidence nor can anyone disprove it other than using antecodal evidence.   People use antecodal evidence all the time, but that doesn’t prove what they are saying is true — just that it’s true in their experience.   How is your statement that only insecure women question your advice any different than a woman who says that she was the perfect girlfriend, the only problem is men?   In both of your experience each of your statements are true.    Does that make them true for every person in every situation?

     

    In my opinion,   your blog post would have been much stronger without it.   With it, it seems like you are trying too hard to prove your point by saying those who disagree with you are insecure.    It says to some readers that the only way they be secure is to agree with you.

     

    In the same way your reply to my question would have been much stronger without the part that you don’t take offense but you will defend your integrity.    Just by saying you take no offense implies that I was trying to offend you and impuned your integrity.   It was wholly unnecessary and makes you seem defensive and not open to real conversation.

     

    That is what makes me waver on you and your advice – I feel like I can’t disagree with you without offending you and/or being told I’m insecure.    It sucks because I agree with some of what you say and don’t with others (who agrees with anyone all the time),   but when I’m thinking about what you said and asking questions – no matter how I word it…I offend you. 🙁

    1. 25.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Briefly, you have inserted one word which shades your entire comment and reading: only. “How is your statement that only insecure women question your advice

      YOU said that only insecure women disagree with me. I made a generalization as one who writes to many must do. So if you ever insert the word all or only or never into my advice, when I didn’t write it myself, you’ve changed the nature of my words.

      For example, here’s a generalization: “Men are more violent than women.” You may presume this is true, unless you are a sweet guy who was beat by his wife. For him, it’s not true.

      Is he an exception? Yes. Do his feelings matter? Yes. Can no one ever say that “men are more violent than women” without also providing for the exceptions to this rule? I sure hope not.

      Understand, Cat5, I don’t have time to acknowledge the millions of exceptions to what I say. I assume my readers are bright enough to distinguish generalizations like “women are more sensitive to subtleties in conversation” or “women have a harder time separating sex and love” from suggesting that EVERY WOMAN in EVERY SITUATION is like that.

      Which is why I find comments like yours so exhausting. You are asking me to not just offer the rules but acknowledge all the exceptions to them, especially when they offend you.

      I will not be doing so any time in the future. I don’t think you’d take umbrage if I said men are more violent; it agrees with your worldview. But when I criticize women, you speak up. Again, it says a lot more about you than it does me or my advice. I’m an equal opportunity critic; you reflexively get agitated when I shine the light on women rather than men.

      Finally, your innocent cries of “I wasn’t impugning or offending you” are undermined by your description of my words as “Self-serving and very off putting.” Insults tend to put people on the defensive, you know?

      This is really simple, Cat5. If you’re not insecure, you’ve got nothing to worry about. Ignore what I said. If you don’t like my advice, you’ve got nothing to worry about. Ignore what I said. If you’re in a happy relationship, you’ve got nothing to worry about. Ignore what I said. It really does not concern me in the least if you follow a word I say. I just don’t see why you have to dissect my words and argue with me. For what? Who wins? Not you. Not me. It’s a pointless exercise that is equally frustrating for both of us, I presume.

      I still believe, for better or worse, that most of the conversation in which I “trigger” someone have very little to do with my advice and more to do with the background of the person offended by it. If you disagree (as you are entitled to), the Internet is a big place, filled with people who may be more open to having their words dissected publicly in a fun and friendly fashion, just for kicks. It’s just not here. It’s not that you’re “wrong” for having your opinion. It’s that I have no interest in having to defend what I said, when nothing I say is going to convince you anyway. It’s just arguing for arguing’s sake.

      Sincerely,

      Evan

    2. 25.2
      Jean

      I don’t know you Cat5, but your comment was very well written and said   exactly what I feel.   Evan doesn’t take kindly to my comments.

      but anyway, I so get your point and thank you for saying, what I   was unable to say.

  6. 26
    Cat5

    I said some readers would view it that way.   I only asked a question about why you included it when it unnecessary and off putting.    As a lawyer I get questions and comments on my writing like that all the time from lawyers, judges, and others.   Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong.   Sometimes I learn something, sometimes I don’t. But, I always consider what they say and either change it or don’t as it is my choice, and I never take offense or feel my integrity is impuned. I tried to word my questions so as not to offend you.    But, still you are offended.

     

    As for your comment about men are more violent than women conforming to my world view — seriously?   A simple Google search reveals a mountain of CDC, US crime statistics, psychiatric studies, etc., not just “my” antecodal evidence that proves this to be true.    Also,   there are tons of evidence that the number one victim of male violence is….wait for it…males!    Yes,   that’s right men.    But, as a society we tend to accept that more readily than male violence against women.    And here’s something else – there is new evidence that female violence had increased significantly though it has a long, long way to go before it reaches the level of male violence.

     

    I believe I have said this on your blog before – I have represented both female and male child abuse victims and female and male victims of domestic violence.   It does not matter to me what gender they are or the gender of the perpatrator of that abuse or violence.    The major stumbling block to my representing more males – they are less likely to report it and if they do report it they often do not go forward with it – for many reasons.

     

    But, we digress.

     

    Your blog post was about whether you want women to change and such, and you mentioned how readers misinterpret things you said and you were surprised a client did.    I tried to ask a few question s about something you wrote that I believe was unnecessarily, off putting, and has only anecdotal evidence to back it up,   which might be a reason some readers misundestand you.   Rather than read my questions for what they were and maybe learn something from it,   you chose to go another direction.    C’est la vie.

    1. 26.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      You can play the anecdote card whenever you see fit, but since your confirmation bias is so strong, you will likely tune out any evidence I offer to support my case. You are very attuned to weaknesses in men. You are resistant to any criticism of women, whether it’s implied or constructive. Men are different than women. Men have more testosterone than women. Men enjoy hookup culture more than women. Men separate sex and love more easily than women. Men are more likely to go on Ashley Madison than women. If that strikes you as patriarchal as opposed to true, then there is no point in having a discussion.

      I am not here to change women. I am here to encourage women not to try to change men and to listen to some logical advice. You seem to make a sport out of trying to tell me when I’m wrong, when I’m not wrong; you just don’t like what I have to say, even when it is measured, reasoned, and valid. I’m not going to assume that it’s because you’re insecure. I will assume that you are not ever going to be a client and thus, I do not have to invest any more time explaining or justifying myself to you. Conversations like this make me want to shut this entire comments section down. What a waste of energy.

    2. 26.2
      olivia

      Evan isn’t a research scientist, he’s a coach. He’s very clear about that.   His goal is to help people who find his perspective and approach helpful. Think about what a coach is:   its someone who uses a combination of data and exhortation and motivation to get people to do something.   Track coaches all have their own special methods.   I’ve no doubt that all olympic coaches rely on some combination of data and intuition.   Evan does use a lot of data, so its not the case that he relies on anecdotes.   But he’s a coach.     If you understand the role of a coach you understand that a coach will use anecdotes and rely on his own experience.   Its part of the package.

      He made a statement about the type of people who he encounters who react negatively to his material.   His statement was about his experience–coaches make statements like that, its totally normal.   You framed it as self serving.   You weren’t just asking a question, you were making a negative value judgment about his work.

      Its like a gymnast arguing with the floor exercise coach about whether its fair for the judges to expect her to stick her landing to get a good score.   The coach doesn’t make the rules.   All he can do is try to coach her so that she sticks her landing.     If   you’re arguing about whether the rules are fair, then his perspective isn’t for you.

       

      1. 26.2.1
        Cat5

        Interesting point.   But, what would you think/say if that same floor exercise coach told the gymnast and all the people who read his coaching blog that everyone who has a negative reaction to his choreogrpshy, which is benign at worst and incredibly empowering at best, is insecure?

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          To save Olivia the trouble:

          1. It’s not the best metaphor. This isn’t art. But whatever. You’ve once again inserted the word “all.” I did not say “all” women who don’t like me are insecure. I merely said women. And I’ve already wasted enough time explaining to you that a blogger cannot possibly write about the many exceptions to the rules. I make observations and I stand by them. If you’re not insecure, then don’t worry about it. I believe that insecure men who are struggling with dating and insecure women who are struggling with dating are the most likely to attack me when I offer guidance that may improve their performance. See your male peer, McLovin, for more on that.

          2. People like me cannot possibly please all the people all the time. So if you’re never going to hire me and McLovin’s never going to hire me, why should I care that you disagree with me? You vote with your wallet. I really don’t understand people who yell at TV shows instead of changing the channel. Just change the channel and end this interminable conversation. I don’t think either of us will be upset.

        2. olivia

          whatever the physical analogy would be to insecure…

          I think yes,   that is totally coaching behavior, at every level, high school, college, professional, olympic.   Coaches say what they think players should do, and what’s worked in their experience, and they can often be rather autocratic.   A coach will quite typically say “people who can’t do this thing I ask them to do usually have X kind of problem with this move.”   It may not be the actual truth for every single player of the game, but its their perception of how its gone in their experience, a totally valid comment for a coach to make, and usually useful guidance because coaches are people with a lot of experience.

          People who go to coaches know that coaches aren’t god. They can decide for themselves what aspects of an approach are the best fit for them. Evan is an actual person who works very hard at what he does and puts a lot of heart into his work.   You may not agree with him, which is fine, but its not fair to suggest that he’s being self serving, when he’s just doing what coaches do.

          I don’t mean this in a ranty way at all, but just a basic way, you don’t have to read his stuff if it’s not a fit for you.   You don’t have to agree that people who don’t like his stuff are insecure.   He’s the coach, that’s his perspective, this is his playing field.   If you don’t share his perspective you don’t have to engage.   Find a perspective that works for you.   He doesn’t owe people a social science debate.   Social science debates and gender politics debates are fine, but he’s a coach. He has a particular approach and style that a lot of people have found very helpful and informative.   He’s not trying to create some kind of social political universe, he’s just trying to coach people on dating.

  7. 27
    olivia

    This is just a general comment, not directed at any particular post at all.   Something I find salient here, as I read back over the comments, is that love and dating are really really important to people.   Perhaps the most important things in their lives.   So they argue about it passionately and assertively.

    So often the tone and intensity about these things is high.   But they don’t probably represent the tone and intensity most of us would use in our every day lives with our partners.   So inferring anyone’s personality here–male or female–from the tone or intensity of the comments may not work.

    For instance I tend to be very mild in my every day life, even in my professional life my colleagues often refer to me as the person in the room who is calm or reasonable, negotiates, bats things around gently to sort out, will go along with a wide range of solutions.   And that’s pretty much how I was in my marriage–until I reached my limit.   And I’d guess that that applies to anyone commenting here.

    But, in discussions about dating and love, or in questions to Evan (mine included), everyone gets more intense.   The stakes are high.   This is something we all care deeply about.   But it doesn’t mean that we would approach a discussion about, say, who was going to load the dishwasher or what movie to see in the same way.

  8. 28
    Deb

    Frankly these comments are exhausting and I have read a small portion.

    As a current “student” in Evans Love U program I can tell you that his techniques, Blog, FB posts and advise work.   I found Evan after a painful breakup 6 months ago.   As a newly divorced woman I had no idea what I was doing and how to choose the right type of man for my personality.   I now find myself in a 3 month committed relationship with someone much better suited to my personality.   It has taken a fair amount of work, and  self reflection but I have not in any way changed my personality.

    We all want the same thing.   Love, joy, and positive relationships.   I am grateful to Evan for helping me get there.

  9. 29
    Jean

    Evan Marc Katz,

    ( Everyone, I apologize for this long rant)

    But, Evan,   I am here, because,   just like you, I have much   love for my gender, also wisdom to offer. I want to help females and you want to help males. I though am different, in that I want to provide some ideas that may be left out of the dialogue here. I am a wise woman so desires to reach as many females as possible, especially the young, vulnerable, gullible ones, who may not have been given supportive suggestions. You see Evan, much of what I read anywhere, is from the male perspective, even from female Christan wife blogs, who lambast females, to do all the sacrificial living. This slant causes us females to see males exhibiting that “give me ” attitude, with a hint of,   “females you all need to remake your bodies, minds, and souls, if you all want to attract, get, and keep us men”

    You see, this is part of my service, to serve as a reinforcement to help guide some young females. Evan, since, practically ALL, of the relationship advice on the Internet and other media, always, tells the female gender to make the adjustments. Why? And do you really think that females will go quietly into the night? It seems that you and many male   supporters,   only have concern for what   males want and need, and I guess I understand   that. But where is there support for females? Enter me.

    Evan, I admit that I do get sensitive and sometimes draw out my verbal claws. I love and support the female gender and I have compassion for females as we endure much pain, under the power of the male gender. But Evan, you do spend more time making argument against the females who write their opinions and not to the male   commentors, even when they are rude or hurtful. I try not to make personal attacks to thes males. But I see that you ignore the males who make personal comments. I do see you as one with much  wisdom and common sense, but sometimes, I question your motives, your respect for the female gender,   when you quickly   disagree with the female commentors only. It gives a little balance when wise females can jump in rescue and speak about the female experience.

    So, Evan, I pray for all people, males as well, since you all have all the power, position, and status. I wish for there to be an awareness of the injustices and unfairness against any people of this world. I wish for you to find a kind and humble spirit and admit that there has been harm done and then work towards a solution for the problems that exist between males and females. If we do not seek fairness and justice, we will continue to see resistance from those who have been wronged. There will always be a struggle.

    I welcome all attacks that are sure to follow.   🙂

     

    1. 29.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Jean,

      There will be no attacks. Only some form of incredulity.

      “Evan, I am here, because, just like you, I have much love for my gender. I want to help females and you want to help males.”

      That. Right there. That’s your belief – and what is animating your responses to me. The problem is that it’s not true. And, unfortunately, since it’s about ME, I actually do have the right to issue a corrective. In other words, you can tell me what you THINK I’m thinking, but only I can tell you what I’m REALLY thinking.

      So, let’s go through this quickly and logically.

      1. I am a man. I do not “love my gender” or favor my gender. But I do react negatively to sweeping attacks on it – or on myself – as the case may be.

      2. I am a coach for women – and only women. This seems to be our big disconnect. I have absolutely no idea how you think I want to help males when my actual MISSION STATEMENT is to help women. It would be like The League of Christian Fellowship actually being a program for Muslims. You see how weird that sounds? That’s how weird it sounds to me when you say “you want to help males.” That may be your opinion, but your opinion, in this instance is wrong. Full stop.

      3. So because I’m a coach for women, women ask me dating and relationship questions. Since I’ve been doing this since 2007, I’ve posted over 1000 times. That’s a pretty long track record of what I believe. Seems to me that you’re cherry picking my posts to reinforce your false belief that I’m “pro-male”. Let’s look at how:

      4. If a woman asks me a question, I can give one of two kinds of advice: a) Advice that reinforces what she already believes or b) Advice that challenges what she already believes. You with me so far? There are hundreds of posts on here that say some form of, “He sucks, you deserve better, kick him to the curb.” That reinforces what she already believes and makes her feel good. The problem is that such advice is rarely interesting, rarely entertaining and doesn’t offer an opportunity for her to learn. It’s validation – the kind you get from your girlfriends – where the only answer is, “You’re right, sweetie. He sucks.”

      5. Here’s the problem with that: it’s not always true. It couldn’t be. Is the woman who complains about men correct in EVERY single instance? Is the man wrong in EVERY single instance? Is it possible that he may have a different point of view that she’s never considered before? Of course it is. I’d be shocked if you suggested otherwise. And THESE are the questions I choose most often – the one where I can offer insight other than, “You’re right. He sucks.” Because, for God’s sake, how many times can you read the same exact validation over and over? And what would you learn from being right in every situation?

      6. So I bring you back to our very premise. I am not a coach for men. I am not paid by men. I just happen to be a man – a very experienced, very compassionate, very logical, very ethical, very happily married man. My full time job is helping women understand men, NOT helping men do better with women. It’s as if you’re angry at what my job is – and every time I offer constructive criticism to a woman, you see it as a gender-based attack. It’s not. Do you want your doctor to tell you that you have high blood pressure and that you have to change your diet? Or do you want your doctor to lie to you because he’s afraid of upsetting you? I’m the guy who tells you what reasonable men are thinking – even if you don’t like it or agree with it. This is designed to HELP women, not hurt women.

      7. Relationship advice for women is designed to help women; it is not designed to change men. So you’re fighting a losing battle. I used to coach men from 2003-2010. I stopped because there weren’t enough men asking for help. That’s a real problem. But it’s not my job to CHANGE it. My job – as a paid professional – is to offer assistance to people who want it. Those just happen to be women. So when ANYONE asks for advice, who can adjust? That’s right. The person who asks for advice. You seem to think of this as biased. It’s not. Once again, if I’m the doctor and I observe you have high blood pressure, your response is to yell at McDonalds for putting too much salt in your food. My response is for you to stop eating at McDonalds. You see? When a man treats you poorly, I tell you to LEAVE him. I don’t see any point in yelling at men who are NOT asking me for advice.

      8. So when I get disagreeable with commenters it’s ALWAYS some version of the same thing. Commenter X doesn’t like what I say because it personally indicts him/her and asks him/her to take responsibility for his/her own fate, instead of blaming/trying to change the opposite sex. Go see the “Why Men Should Court Women” thread – all the angry men who felt personally indicted and wanted to blame women for the ills of society. But such threads are rare on this site – not because I’m pro-men, but because I’m a coach for WOMEN. Women ask me questions. And over 50% of the time, I’m going to challenge them to see things from a guy’s point of view, because it’s equally valid to yours, and it makes for much more interesting, productive advice than, “You’re right. He sucks.”

      9. You are entitled to your beliefs, Jean. But you are not entitled to your facts. And you are not entitled to tell me what I’m thinking or doing. I’m the doctor. My job is to help women by telling them the truth from a male perspective. It is NOT to help men since men aren’t the ones asking me questions. If you went to the doctor and he told you that you needed to work out more, you wouldn’t go home and tell your husband he had to work out more, would you? And yet that’s what you think this blog should be about. Woman asks me a question and then I tell her boyfriend (who didn’t ask the question) what HE should do.

      10. I think this blog shows that I am human and flawed – but it’s more of a Rorschach test for readers. It’s so obvious which readers are objective and open to logic and reason, and which ones have a gendered axe to grind. Which is why I have no trouble letting discussions about the original question get debated back and forth, but I leap in vigorously when false accusations are leveled against me – that I favor women, that I favor men, or that my advice has no merit just because you disagree with it. You only disagree with it because it implies that you may be doing something wrong, and no one wants to ever think that. It’s far easier to assume that the world is conspiring against you.

      11. So when you write that I ignore males who make personal comments, you’re wrong. If anything, I’m more likely to ban men who attack readers personally. You don’t see the comments that DON’T make it to this blog. When you write that you question my motives and my respect for the female gender, you’re wrong. My motives are to give free, honest advice to women who want to understand men and find love. By hearing the truth from a man, it may shed light on your own life. My motives are as pure as anything – to help, not hurt. As far as respect? I respect all people who act in good faith. You are willfully ignoring all the blog posts and comments that give men a big smackdown because they undermine your theories about me. All you see is when I challenge women to see things from another side – as if that’s disrespectful. It’s not. Disrespectful would be assuming that because you’re a woman, you didn’t have the capacity to listen to logic or respect a different point of view. I assume all of my readers can do so. I treat them as adults. The only time you’ll see me lash out at a reader is when the reader has attacked or lashed out at me. That’s an act of defense, not an act of aggression.

      12. I’ve spent 3 hours a day for over a decade listening to women. It would be hard to say that I don’t care about women or that I don’t understand women. But remember, I’m not coming to women for dating advice; they’re coming to ME to understand what guys like ME are thinking. All I do is tell them. So it’s not your place to tell me I’m wrong. I’m paid to give my opinions and observations. And so, I offer you the same proposition that I offered a man on another thread last night: if you don’t like my opinions, you can find another blog to frequent. I won’t judge you or be upset. If you’re going to stay here, feel free to disagree with my point of view (as many, many have) but refrain from attacking my integrity or intentions. If you do that, you’ll never hear from me personally again. But let’s be real here: I have only questioned what you’re doing here when you have such animus towards me. Just because men have wronged you doesn’t mean that I am one of them. Just because we have different worldviews doesn’t mean I’m a bad guy. And just because I offer advice that challenges women doesn’t mean I favor men; it means I’m trying to HELP women see things in a different light.

    2. 29.2
      Gem

      @Jean: This is untrue.

      I am a member of Evan’s Love U program, and a reader of his blog for awhile. I am also the same Gem quoted in the article.

      ______________________________________

      Evan has been fair in his commentary to both genders. Many of his clients have brought up similar sentiments, and he is quick to concede that while some of those observations are true, it is not effective to focus heavily on them. He will rarely entertain such ideas for their sake. The culture is what it is. Leave out the bad, take in the good.

      There are other ways to find love. This is his expertise. How to find love in a modern culture. And he will not use the pop-culture, passion-driven method.

      Clearly, there are other approaches, but we are here to listen to Evan’s perspective. Why ask him to offer a POV that is nearly the polar opposite of his own? Wouldn’t it be more effective to seek a guide who provides the answers one seeks?

      ______________________________________

      He also coaches from the principles of believing in love, understanding the other gender’s experiences, mutual giving, and many others.

      If someone takes his views and words for their logical structure, not for their emotional nuance, then such a person will find that Evan is merely describing the general cultural trends.

      If someone signs up for his blog newsletter, they will find personal emails from EMK describing how he understood those observations. More often than not, he started from the same understanding as those he is currently coaching. He has taken great care to help others discover what he did.

      ______________________________________

      Understandably, his style is not for everyone. Do know that for many, many women his style works just fine, and he has been an excellent guide in their love lives. The success stories linked in this blog are merely the tip of the iceberg. They have loving, trustworthy, and caring partners. Many of them cried and are overjoyed to discover that they have more chances at love — despite their long toxic histories. The results speak for themselves.

      And no, he has never recommended any woman to participate in a one-sided sacrificial relationship. In fact, there were some clients dating such men {or held onto toxic ex-partners}, and he quickly told them to leave him behind. To find a man who deeply cares about their well-being.

      It is incredibly untrue to imply that Evan does not assist young, vulnerable and gullible women. Or women in general. Spend one week or a few in his Love U program, or read his email newsletters, and you will see that he is the first man to help a woman who has gotten burned from the dating process.

      ______________________________________

      Furthermore, there are many strongly opinionated women as his clients. Naturally, there would be disagreements and not every suggestion is applicable in each individual case, but everything remained respectful.

      Evan is also sensitive to the backgrounds to his clients, and understands there will be certain material they cannot fully apply. When this happens, he has kindly told them that he supports their endeavors in love. In overall perspective, if they have healthy partnership qualities {authenticity, vulnerability, trust, generosity, compassion, etc.}, they will do well in love.

      The context is lost here, but he and Olivia had a great exchange, where Olivia discovered her issues have gone much further than Evan’s area of focus. Without Evan and the Love U community’s support, she would have not recognized how much healing she needed to do before she was ready to date. We are all grateful for her participation, and support her on the path of healing.

      ______________________________________

      As with any trainer, coach, professional, etc. for whom we seek their expertise, we owe it to their effort and time, to provide a good chance to teach us their concepts.

      He has asked us to fairly entertain his ideas, as we have hired him. He does not ask us to blindly agree with him. If we disagree with him, it ought to be based on the exact concepts as he outlined. Not a severe misinterpretation of his integrity or intentions.

      And yes, I, myself, do not adhere to every single point. I do not follow many common trends that many women pursue. However, I respect Evan, and do not assume that disagreement indicates he is hoping to bring harm towards my well-being.

      Make no mistake, he has been exceptionally kind to women who do not fit in the traditional mold. He has actually suggested such women to select an alternative path. 🙂

      Ultimately, Evan and I maintain a wonderful, working relationship.

      ______________________________________

      In the end, we all highly respect Evan and his work — that is why we signed up. To hear his perspective. To give him a full chance to fairly explain the entirety of his views before judgment.

      Remember, this does not mean we cannot ask him questions, or request his clarification. Or hold a different position. This would be an insult to his clients’ intelligence if he asked them to absorb his material without question.

      However, we must be respectful. To use character defamation or doubt his sincerity in our questions, is to disrespect a man who has so extensively poured his energy into assisting thousands+ of women since 2003.

      This is not a productive working relationship. If we feel compelled to do so, then Evan will be of limited assistance. As all trainers/experts will be, if we did the same to them.

      – Gem

      1. 29.2.1
        Gem

        *PS: I understand that many readers are sensitive to emotional nuances. If this is something you personally struggle with, try subscribing to Evan’s email newsletters.

        He describes his struggles and observations in a heart-warming manner that can be more palpable to readers who need a comforting squeeze on the shoulder. Same message, with a more personal approach. 🙂

        If, after some time, this still does not answer your questions, then perhaps you will need a different guide.

  10. 30
    N

    You lost me there. I started visiting this blog over a year ago and currently in a well-balanced 18-month relationship. This blog helps women.

    Along with willingness, self-awareness, yoga & meditation, physical and spiritual fitness, EMK’s blog helps me look within myself with what I’m doing wrong in most of my relationships. To get down to brass tacks minus all the noises. The message of this blog (to me) is crystal– I can’t blame and change other people, dating culture, and what have you. I can only change my perception and my actions.

    I’m Eurasian female who thinks self-awareness is a tried and true rudder. Nic~

  11. 31
    Julie

    Evan’s number one advice to women is to find a relationship in which you feel “safe, heard, and understood.”

    I fail to see how this advice is in any way unhelpful or harmful to women.

    I, too, am a member of LoveU along with Olivia and Gem. I’ve had to face a great deal of things about myself I’ve never faced before. Has it been difficult? Yes. Have I bristled against some of his advice? Yes. Am I a better person as a result of this introspection? Yes. Do I feel I am more likely to find a long-term partner that I truly love and who loves me? Yes.

    The End.

  12. 32
    Al

    Alright, you guys are making me think here. It’s not lost on me that I am maybe being too closed off and selective myself. Like Olivia, I come from a bad marriage. There was emotional, sexual and verbal abuse. My ex also has a substance abuse problem that made communication next to impossible.   I’m a nurturer and I pay a lot of attention to my partner’s needs and, in the past, I’ve allowed my spouse to take that for granted, depending on me for everything and contributing almost nothing.

     

    I’m a taller than average woman so I do tend to gravitate toward taller men. Hey, it’s the way our entire society leans so don’t hit me with too much hate here. I don’t like towering over my date. It makes me feel like an amazon. So, wanting a man 5’10 or taller. There’s one strike against me.

     

    As a single, working mother, I really can’t afford to support anyone else, so I do want my man to be financially independent, not wealthy, just self supporting. I want a man with a decent job. Strike two.

     

    I have two degrees and, while I don’t care if he has any higher education, I do need someone who can hold his own with me intellectually. I believe that people are probably usually happier with someone with an equal level of intelligence. Need a smart guy. Strike three?

     

    There is someone I’ve been friends with for some time who wants to be more. He is all but #2. He supports himself for now, but his chosen career has an expiration date. He will absolutely not be able to continue in his current career for more than 5 or 10 more years max and he doesn’t seem to have any plans for when time runs out. This worries me.

     

    He also has a child like way about him that gives me pause. He’s sweet, kind, tall, attractive and intelligent, but sometimes I wonder if he’s ever truly grown up all the way.

    1. 32.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Al, sorry, but there are no dating questions in the comments section. Comments are only to talk about the original post itself. It’s been our policy since 2007.

    2. 32.2
      Evan Marc Katz

      Very quickly:

      A man 5’10” or taller? That’s about half the male population. Lower it to 5’8″ (presuming you’re around this height) and you’ve increased it to 80%.

      A man who is self-supporting is not hard to find. Makes $50K, has no debt, carries his own weight. You don’t have to support him, but he can’t support you.

      A man of equal intelligence? Well, that all depends on how intelligent you are and your definition of intelligence. If you’re in the 95th percentile, that leaves few men. If you’re in the 80th, you’ll have plenty of options. Just know that life is not built on book smarts. A guy who understands quarks or writes in iambic pentameter is not proven to be more sensitive or flexible or help out with house work or childrearing. If he’s smart enough to keep up in normal conversation, you should be able to include men in the 70th percentile or so.

      All is not lost for you, dear Ally. You just need to open up a LITTLE bit on the margins, let go of how it looks, and trust how it FEELS.

      1. 32.2.1
        Al

        Thanks Evan. You’re the coolest! I didn’t expect you to bother responding to my post at all. It was very kind of you to take the time.

        You give  me hope that my expectations aren’t TOO far out of the ball park.   🙂

      2. 32.2.2
        Al

        I never meant to imply that some men aren’t more ruled by testosterone than others or that there is not a biological difference between men and women, just that this need not rule us.

         

        Gender roles have changed significantly since the 1950s, for example, and they continue to evolve.

         

        All  I’m saying is that there is hope for tomboys and so-called “beta “men. We may not fit into the masculine or feminine ideals, but that does not mean there aren’t people out there who will like us as we are.

         

        I’m  never going to be a petite little girly girl, but I would not be happy with any man who would expect me to conform to that ideal. Conversely, I would not wish any man I date to change his basic character for my sake.

         

        we are, to some degree, established in our personalities. Sure, there are things we can all do to improve our relations with other people. Being courteous, maintaining proper hygiene, being supportive and optimistic, are all things that can help us find mates. Being somewhat non-traditional myself, I can understand Jean’s frustration.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Non-traditional people ARE going to be more frustrated, because there are fewer lids for their respective pots. That’s okay. The reason I object to Jean is that she misrepresents me and my advice, as to render it unrecognizable. I wrote her a long response on this thread, to which she did not respond, so I won’t do it again. But when advice designed to help women is perceived as advice designed to subjugate women…and I’m quoted as saying things that I haven’t actually said…I’m going to step in firmly to correct the record and defend my integrity. You can disagree with any piece of my advice and/or choose not apply it to yourself. That’s perfectly valid. Distorting me and my views, and setting up straw man arguments about me on my own website? Not gonna fly here. It should seem patently obvious, but just because because I’m a coach for women doesn’t mean that women are always right in every situation, no more than men could be right in every situation. And yet every woman (and man) who rants at me on here believes, deep down in her bones that she’s “right” and that if I disagree, I’m wrong, and worse, that I’m a bad person. I call bullshit. This is really simple: if you’re a masculine energy woman, choose a feminine energy man. If you want a masculine energy man, you’ll do better as a feminine energy woman. That’s it. 1000 blog posts distilled into two sentences.

        2. Josie

          I share a lot of your considerations.   I guess the encouragement is to keep on implementing Evan’s recommendations.   I am also a tomboy,   an “alpha female” with a somewhat high profile career, high  income and good looking but in a somewhat nontraditional tomboyish way  (which makes it even more difficult in my local area, where men are more traditional as opposed to say, the west coast).

          I have struggled in dating for the past couple of years.   I have plenty or first and even second dates, but I have not had anything last longer than a month in almost three years.   I am probably going to seek some counseling this year, as my 40th is approaching and my singleness and continual lack of dating success is weighing on me.

          I’m never going to be a petite girly girl either (I am 5’10” have always been fit and athletic, but I am somewhat of a tall,  muscled/athletic, practically flat chested Amazon woman isn’t a lot of guys cup of tea, at least not in my area).   I have implemented Evan’s recommendations and now I do pay much more attention to my appearance especially my hair and makeup.    I recently attended a work event and a woman I had not seen in years said I looked the best she had seen me.   I am also broadening my scope online and reaching out to men I normally would not have, whether it be height or ethnicity.   I have to trust that the struggle will benefit me.

  13. 33
    Al

    So sorry about that. Please go ahead and delete the post.

    1. 33.1
      joek

      Al, you should submit this to Evan as a question- would make for a good conversation. I’d like to hear Evan’s perspective myself. Also, you seems to have a well-grounded, rational perspective.

      1. 33.1.1
        Al

        Thanks Joek. I’d hire Evan but I’m pretty sure I already know what he would tell me. I don’t think there’s a shortage of decent men out there. My reasons for being single are totally my own internal BS. Lack of trust and laziness primarily.   As soon as I’m motivated enough I have faith that good men are out there. Still, I find this blog both informative and entertaining. 🙂

  14. 34
    Marie

    Jean – I’m sure there are plenty of male coaches/commentators who are quite biased but Evan isn’t one of them. I worked with Evan because he told me the male perspective of dating and didn’t hold back the truth even if it wasn’t what I wanted to hear.   I didn’t need self validation I needed results and have been happily married now for over 2 years.   I think if you read more of his blog you will see what he is about. There is no point bemoaning men on this blog.   Most men don’t read it or could care less.   That doesn’t really get you anywhere. You can do that with your girlfriends.

    1. 34.1
      Jean

      Marie,

      I intended to ignore you and your comment. I really did. You see, your comment came across as rather presumptuous, and seemed to me, just a trap written to get me to react.   It worked. I said, ” Okay, here is another indoctrinated, gullible, silly, female, or a male pretending to be female, using the name Marie.”

      So anyway, I did write that earlier comment to speak to Evan, not for you to   “come running to the rescue”, with a   snarky   comment about me needing to talk to my girlfriends and about men not reading here. That’s fine if men don’t read here. I don’t care where they read Marie. I am not like you, one female so desperate to make the male gender more comfortable and put the scold on the female gender.   I write to help some females who may still be at the point of   ” awakening” , where they can learn that they are vital and important . I want to reach them before man made doctrines become ingrained in them.   My concern is not to further promote,   exaltate, and affirm males. They are lifted up enough as it is.

      You see Marie, I don’t worry about whether I attract, get, or keep a male partner. I   am not desperate. I don’t bat my eyes,   grin excessively to get a male partner, I don’t throw away my sweat pants, wear high heels, get cosmetic surgery, go on a starvation diet, keep silent and not express my opinion, compliment him, brag on him, tell him that   he is my hero, let him order and pay for my meal, get intimate with him on the first, second, third, or the next date, until I am comfortable, but certainly not because he is so horny and will break up with me if I dont jump into bed with him. If I cannot meet all these outlandish needs, that society has told each man to place on his woman, poof, be gone, he can be on his way,

      All the changing of oneself, that many people here and elsewhere have suggested   to the female, I never have done to myself. I can’t go along with the sexism.   My responsibility, any female’s responsibility, is to keep dignity and keep herself emotionally and physically healthy and treat her male partner with the same respect that he treats her with.   Her role is not to exalt him.   Her role is not to change ANY part of herself for him.   And, I just really don’t care, whether men read on this site, or not. I don’t care about that Marie. I just don’t get bent out of shape over a man.

      1. 34.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        And that’s why Marie is happily married and you’re…arguing with strangers on a dating and relationship blog for women who want to understand men and find love.

        Now please go. You’re a killjoy. There has to be a place where women like you can commisserate about how bad men are. It’s just not here, given that I’m a man.

        Regardless, good luck to you wherever you go. I hope you find the happiness and peace of mind that Marie and I both have one day. And I do mean that sincerely. I wish nothing but the best for you, no matter what you say or feel about me.

      2. 34.1.2
        Al

        I’m actually a lot like you in this respect and have had similar conversations on this blog that have mostly fallen on deaf ears. I think  our perspective is  a few steps outside of the main stream (for now), though this appears to be gradually changing. I encounter more people who think along these lines in liberal leaning areas  and college towns.

         

        Most reasonable people  accept that there should be equal opportunities for women and that men shouldn’t be forced into some absurd caricature of a macho man role. Most people would also support the old “Golden Rule” in their everyday dealings with others, but when it comes to dating people still hold onto gender stereotypes that no longer fit all of us.

         

        I’m not an overly feminine woman. I’m tough, educated, self sufficient and mostly uninterested in make up and fashion (though I do have my moments).    I don’t need to change the basics of who I am to land a guy. I’m not even capable of changing a lot of things and I wouldn’t be happy with a man who was that simplistic  anyway. Men have always liked me so there are clearly plenty of guys out there who prefer  women like us. They often say they are relieved to find a woman who doesn’t play stupid mind games. I’m the one who tends to have  commitment issues.

         

        I also don’t believe in the “Alpha/Beta” male thing. Chest thumping  bravado just appears mentally and emotionally weak to me. I prefer a man with brains over brawn, who respects me as an individual. If that makes me a “Beta”male lover than so be it. I personally think it shows  more strength of character when a man isn’t afraid to be confident, sensitive AND  caring.  I grew up with three brothers so I’m very familiar with the male mindset. They aren’t that shallow and one dimensional any more than we are.

         

        The world IS changing and the gender divide is getting smaller in developed countries as white collar work is becoming more the norm. Men are becoming more sensitive and women are more independent. We are all human and, while there are certainly some basic biological differences between men and women, we really aren’t as different as many people think. Most of our gender role differences are entirely cultural.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          There were 20 million men on Ashley Madison and 2000 women. Cultural? Or would this explain a lot of behavior you’ve observed? Testosterone is not cultural. It increases anger, sex drive, competition, violence, behavior that we call “masculine.” Please don’t bury your head in the sand and act as if biology is fiction whenever it suits you. Boys fight, not because they’re taught to. My three year old son wants to fight me every day. My daughter wants to role play princess games where I save her. Just because stereotypes don’t apply to you doesn’t mean they don’t apply. You seem to have a hard time accepting that for some reason. Men and women may be 90% the same but the 10% difference explains a lot.

      3. 34.1.3
        Gem

        @Jean

        Respectfully, this is a misinterpretation of Marie’s & Evan’s post. It sounds like you have a history of running into a crowd that does exactly as you state.

        You have my empathy — my parents are from a very old-fashion culture. Let’s just give one example — female virginity before marriage is worth its weight in gold. When they moved here to the US in the 70s-80s, they brought their traditions with them. And yes, I was somewhat raised in a similar way.

        Thankfully, I was stubborn enough to not believe in those ideals. 😉 Unfortunately, the constant exposure did affect me later on, but I’ve worked over it now. Not to mention, the women in my parents’ culture were expected to be silent and demure. I’m very aware of how they are “trained” to be subservient to men. In such a case, your commentary is very much justified.

        An example of where your commentary is true, try googling for the Patheos blog called, “No Longer Quivering”. And yes, the treatment of women within that particular culture is downright horrifying. The women who run the site, are working hard to shine light on the mindsets that harm the well-being of women. Perhaps, you will find discussions there more suited to your efforts.

        ______________________________________

        Nonetheless, EMK does not endorse any such values that you have described of his approach. If he did, many of his clients would not seek his expertise. And I certainly would have not. I have long considered myself an egalitarian, sensitive to the struggles of both women and men. If you asked if I have any feminist sympathies, I would say I certainly do.

        So please do not misrepresent his views, because if you subscribe to his email newsletters and thoroughly read his comments to men, EMK is very much about equal opportunity. I am guessing you are a new reader here, so you haven’t gotten the chance to read them.

        ______________________________________

        In essence, you and Evan actually see eye-to-eye on certain core values.

        Here is what EMK constantly emphasizes in his coaching —

        “Find the man who treats you best, makes your life easiest, & allows you to comfortably be yourself, flaws & all.” – EMK

        And in that process, Evan also teaches his clients they ought to treat their men the same way. Which is the same as this view —

        “Treat her male partner with the same respect that he treats her with.” – Jean

        Secondly, EMK heavily endorses “sexclusivity”, where sex is reserved for boyfriends, not dates. That approach has gained plenty of controversy alone.

        ______________________________________

        Third, real change comes from within. Since Evan is a dating coach for women, he does not spend any time discussing how women can change their men.

        Should he become a dating coach for men, he would do the same. He will provide self-improvement tips for men, instead of telling women to change.

        Fourth, if a woman discovers that her basic needs are consistently unmet in the relationship, Evan will tell her the relationship is not the right fit. Should he coach men, he would tell him the same thing.

        “If you’re not in a satisfying relationship, don’t be afraid to fold. Smart gamblers fold 80% of their hands.” – EMK

        ______________________________________

        So Marie is correct that here we do not bemoan the ills of men. It does not mean their commentary is untrue. It simply means the act of complaining is ineffective, as real change comes to those who want to improve.

        We either seek to understand, or aim to find another one, if they cannot provide what we need in a relationship. Evan has also given the same advice to the men who bemoan the ills of women.

        As EMK often says, if the TV channel is bothering us so much, flip to another channel. He uses this approach in all forms of his advice.

  15. 35
    joek

    @Karmic

      “I totally blabfested my guy. “

     

    Hahahha…too funny! Also, thanks for the perspective on your situation.

  16. 36
    Natasha

    I see you’ve shortened the time women should wait before sex, to one month! Last year it was 2-3 months.

    Men have actually shortened their expectations from date 3 – date 2.

    I guess I’ll stay single. I’m not going to have sex on date#2.. and there isn’t a man out there who’ll wait a month..let alone the 6 weeks or more… as we were instructed to wait last year..

     

  17. 37
    Ajay

    “Maybe — just maybe — you’ll be able to see that pretty much all of my advice is universal and is only targeted to women because women are my paying customers. If men were my paying customers, they would get largely the same exact feedback.”

    Glad to hear you say this! I’ve read most of the  articles on your website and have been learning more about dating than from other sources with men as the target audience. Thank you.

  18. 38
    Ugogirl

    To be fair, some women have incredibly high standards for appearance and even Moreso than men.   If either sex   uses merely physical attraction as their sole criteria then they run the risk of a failed relationship/ marriage since we all age and if you don’t have great chemistry in term of fit, forget it.
    I think when the right one comes you just know it. It should not feel like crazy making work.
    If you have past baggage you need to clear it before you get involved
    just have fun

  19. 39
    freereader

    Just wanted to thank you for all the great free advice.

    I’ve been slowly implementing what you’ve written, you’re so right: warm definitely trumps cold. I have “bitchy resting face” and I’ve noticed that when I make an effort to smile and project confidence/warmth, strangers [including, yes, men] respond positively to it.

    1. 39.1
      pk

      free reader,

      Dont ever change yourself for a man. Don’t change your body or your mind. Maintain your mental health and keep financial security. Love and respect yourself.

      Women have got to stop following men’s rules that always tell the woman to change, but never tells the man to change, Listen, men have resting bitch face too, just as pronounced. They get old and ugly too. Skin that has become crepe like and droopy, is a regular as men age, but you don’t see or hear men talk about that do you? They evade the issue. Wish women were as smart!    Don’t buy it. You probably have a beautiful face and don’t know it   . Ask your mom, sisters, and daughters.

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