IVF Pays Off – If You Can Afford to Keep Trying

Yes, this is a blog about dating and relationships, but I also try to make it a one-stop shop for information relevant to the smart, strong, successful women who frequent this site.

That’s why I post articles and studies every Thursday about gender dynamics, personality types, sexual assault, and parenting – all of which impact a portion of my readers. Today’s post is mostly for the 45-and-under set because it’s specifically about the efficacy of IVF (in-vitro-fertilization). I’ve posted about this before in a post called “Why Women Who Want to Have Children Should Date Seriously in Their Early 30’s.” That article linked to a powerful piece by Amy Klein about the true numbers for women of a certain age who want to have their own biological children. (Amy did, in fact, have her own child last year, after many struggles).

The upshot: just because you look good for your age doesn’t mean your ovaries are capable of producing viable eggs well into your 40’s. And if you find that you’re not as fertile as you’d hoped, IVF is your best possible hope for success. There are only a few problems:

  1. It works less than 30% of the time during your first round of IVF, and 17% after the sixth cycle. If you’re 40-42, those numbers drop to 12.3% and 6.9%.
  2. Each cycle of IVF averages $12,400.

That’s a lot of risk for a very uncertain reward. But for those couples (or single women) who are highly motivated, there is a winnowing opportunity that just can’t be missed. And while old assumptions were that women couldn’t get pregnant after three or four failed tries, in fact, 2/3 of women who tried IVF reported having a child by the sixth cycle.

I hope this provides a ray of hope for women with the means to invest so heavily in IVF. One of my best friends from college went through 5-6 rounds with his 44-year-old wife to conceive their second child, and I’m positive it was worth every penny.

Your thoughts, below, are always appreciated. (Except the ones chastising people for spending $100K when there are kids they can adopt. It’s their money. It’s their lives. They can do whatever they want with it.)

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Caroline

    Evan-like the post. It certainly gives hope to folks wanting their own biological children. I am grateful for my kids everyday (even if my 18 yr old is more than a challenge at this point). My heart always goes out to women having a hard time conceiving (I had my youngest by surprise at 37). The only downfall that I’ve been aware of is if the woman feels it’s too challenging and eventually feels unneeded pressure from her hubby. My “niece” has had this problem. She’s young (just 30) but her difficulty of conceiving cane with a traumatic appendectomy earlier in life which has made it awful to conceive. The numerous ivf  has made it terrible on their relationship. I think she feels his insistence on the subject makes her wonder if she’s only valued as a baby maker to him. She was ready to adopt at an earlier point. Luckily, she is pregnant and has made it through the scary first stages of pregnancy. I just pray she can make it to term because losing it could be devastating not only to them individually but their marriage if she doesn’t want to pursue it again and he does. They will make great parents.

  2. 2
    Christine

    I have seen IVF work for several 40-something women I know.  All of them either had twins or triplets.  However, I think that’s less likely now.  According to this article, doctors nowadays are encouraged to transfer just one or two embryos at a time to avoid multiple births (and the women I know did this years ago, probably before doctors received that instruction).

    Thanks Evan for posting this, so your older readers can perhaps still have hope of having children if they want them.  I think this article does a good job of balancing risks vs. rewards, so readers can make an informed decision about whether to do it or not.

     

     

    1. 2.1
      A

      Yes, but did they use their own eggs and thus conceived biological children. Unless you know these women intimately enough for them to confide such senstivie information to you, you cannot be sure. Many clinics simply refuse to use a woman’s own eggs after about 42 or 43 years old. Sure, Evan’s older readers can have hope, but hope for what ? hope to have biological children ? Or hope to carry another woman’s child in her body and then raise the child as their own ?

      1. 2.1.1
        GoWithTheFlow

        At 42 or 43, most IVF docs will still do a sim cycle.  the big fall off in success is around 44.  A lot depends upon the health of the prospective mother, and to a lesser extent, the father.  There is a person’s calendar age:  You were born on X day, so that makes you Y years old.  And then there is physiological aging, or how well your organ systems are holding up.  The rate of decline of physiologic functioning isn’t the same for everyone due to genetic, environmental, and behavioral factors.  The behavioral factors are the one’s we can control.

        So the possibility of a natural or assisted pregnancy occuring in a 42 year old who is normal body weight, does regular moderate exercise, eats a balanced diet, and manages stress effectively, is much greater that in a 42 year old who is obese, has smoked cigarettes for 25 years, gets no exercise, and leads a stress filled life, with irregular sleep and lots of junk food.  The second woman has aged herself prematurely.  As for the male factor, If either woman’s husband smokes, or uses marijuana on a regular basis, both women may have a decreased chance of achieving a pregnancy.

        There is a strong correlation that women who bear children in their forties are more likely to live longer than women who tried but couldn’t.  It’s a sign that the reproductive systems of the the first group of women is aging slower than that of the second group.  Which means their cardiovascular, respiratory, nervous, and digestive systems are aging at a slower rate to.

        I’ve gotta comment on it A–it seems that you think using donor eggs is a terrible thing for a woman to deal with.  If a woman is using donor eggs, she is surely okay with it, otherwise she wouldn’t have done it.  And she is probably thrilled to be carrying “another woman’s child” because to her it is her child.

  3. 3
    Karl R

    Evan said:

    “Your thoughts, below, are always appreciated. (Except the ones chastising people for spending $100K when there are kids they can adopt. It’s their money….)”

     

    I’m a proponent of adoption … but adoption isn’t necessarily cheap either.  If someone is trying to adopt a white newborn through a private-placement agency, they could be looking at $25,000 to $50,000 in costs.  (I specified the age and race, because certain adoptees are in higher demand than others.  Age and race factor heavily into the demand for adoptees, and therefore, the ultimate cost of the adoption.)

  4. 4
    GoWithTheFlow

    I am in the medical field and have worked closely with IVF doctors (I provide the sedation for egg retrieval procedures).  I had a bio son when I was very young (unplanned) then decided, at age 39, to pursue having another child on my own since I was unsuccessful in finding a husband, and was completely burned out on the dating game.  So I definitely considered IVF first, then decided to pursue adoption.  Some important things to know.

    1)  My two adoptions cost MORE than IVF would have.  Sad, but true:  If you have a significant amount of money to spend on an adoption, you will likely match much sooner, that if you have limited means. 2)  12-20% of couples attempting IVF have male infertility or combined male-female infertility.  3) The IVF doctor you use can make a huge difference!  Success rates are reported, ask the doctors’ offices for this information when you are gathering information.  4) If IVF cannot overcome issues with eggs that are too old or sperm that won’t work, then donor eggs or sperm can help you be a parent.  And controlling the in-utero environment of a developing baby is very important.  Children of stressed mothers show different brain chemistry, than of moms in stable situations.  Something to consider. Many over 45 women who undergo IVF use donor eggs.  5) Embryo “adoption” is a also an option.  Embryos that aren’t used by people who underwent IVF are sometimes offered to others instead of being destroyed. 6)  Egg donation and preservation is now available for women.  If you can afford it, it is a game changer as far as the pressure of the biological clock is concerned.

    There are many different pathways to parenthood.  You have options.  Don’t give up.  My three kids have given me a purpose in life that nothing else can ever come close too.  This morning I met my 6 year old son at the foot of the stairs.  He jumped into my arms and said, “You make my heart happy!”  Best feeling ever!

  5. 5
    Jenn

    While I can see the advantages modern medicine provides, I’m concerned that the attitude of most people seems to always be “if it feels good, do it”, or “it’s your life, your body, your choice”, etc. No one ever seems to consider the moral implications though. Just because you CAN do IVF doesn’t mean you should. It’s killing 20-30 human embryos just to get one or two viable ones. Those souls do matter and they’re not just clumps of cells.

    I know infertility is a huge problem for people these days. We’re staying single a lot longer (most of us not by our own preference). I’m about to turn 35 this year, still with no husband in sight. I’ve had to face the fact that I might not get the chance to have my own children. It is absolutely heartbreaking, but that’s the way life is sometimes. We don’t always get what we want, and that’s okay. God gives us what we need if we lean on Him.

    It’s undeniably painful when people I love tell me I’ll be such a great mom someday. Maybe I will. But then, maybe I’ll just be a great stepmother or foster mom. Maybe I’ll get the chance to adopt my children, and in that sense really choose them. Maybe I won’t get married at all and I’ll have to focus on just being a great godmother to my niece and nephew. Or I could focus on being a good role model and spiritual mother for kids in the community, who need the loving example I can be for them.

    If life is all about choices, I’d say those are some pretty good ones, if you can get past the natural inclination to want everything to always go your way. I have to fight against my selfish human nature every day. It’s not easy when the flesh screams, “But it’s what I waaaaant!”. I have to constantly remind myself that it’s not what we want that matters most, but what God wants for us. Children are a wonderful blessing no matter where they come from. It’s only natural that we should want such a good thing to happen to ourselves. But take care not to give such a good desire over to a procedure like IVF or the like. It’s just not everything it’s cracked up to be.

     

    1. 5.1
      Shaukat

      “Just because you CAN do IVF doesn’t mean you should. It’s killing 20-30 human embryos just to get one or two viable ones. Those souls do matter and they’re not just clumps of cells.”

      They are just clumps of cells. A human embryo has about 150 cells. As one neurologist pointed out, the head of a fly contains over a thousand cells. Something that swims in a petri dish certainly doesn’t have  a “soul,” even if we accept the dubious  proposition that such a thing as a soul actually exists. Religious folks need to be careful about smuggling in premises that most rational individuals would immediately reject.

      1. 5.1.1
        GoWithTheFlow

        One thing I learned when I was was pregnant with my oldest, when it comes to decisions about how to, or whether to, or when to have kids, there is never a shortage of people willing to stand in line to criticize you!

      2. 5.1.2
        A

        Agree that you can’t expect others to share your own moral sentiments. However I do agree with Jenn that just because you can do something, it does not mean you should be able to do it. I’m thinking more in terms of single women having children by going it alone. I hope these women truly truly think very carefully and deeply about how their future children might feel about this, and what kind of impact if may have on those future children. I don’t believe people have a “right” to children hence the control by society over who gets to procreate via the institution of marriage. No-one likes being told what they can and can’t do, but ultimately, if you are brining another life into this world, you sure as hell need to consider broader issues other than just your own personal (and sometimes selfish) desire for children.

        1. Caroline

          @A-while I appreciate your comments in general I had to make a remark about the “institution” of marriage. In the US (according to slate magazine) one HALF of women under 30 are having children out of wedlock. It summed it up as being an educational divide but it also stated that women under 30 with a bachelors degree-30% had children out of wedlock. Of course, a good percentage of all these woman with varying educational levels were having children with a partner. Umm-do much for the “institution” of marriage and it’s impact on society.

           

          I have sons and I’ve worked diligently to impress upon them that raising kids is not for the faint of heart. It’s best IMO for them to wait at least till their late 20s early 30s to get married and have kids. But I’ve also talked to them about how hard it can be if they wait too long. It’s definitely a thin line for some women to conceive. Besides, I’m so not ready to be a grandparent! And they definitely don’t appear to be ready to take on the responsibility.

        2. A

          Caroline, Yes I should have clarified that the institution of marriage was intended to ensure children were brough into this world in the best of circumstances. Whether that has actually worked or not in a modern context is an entirely different question.

        3. Caroline

          Absolutely A-I’ve always thought there was more than one reason it took an egg and a sperm:)

          While many single moms and dads have raised wonderful citizens if humanity-it so much better with extended family/community for both the child and parent.

        4. GoWithTheFlow

          A–“I hope these women truly truly think very carefully and deeply about how their future children might feel about this, and what kind of impact if may have on those future children.”

          Since 50% of all pregnancies are unplanned (according to the American Congress of Obstetricians & Gynecologists) then a lot of women, both married and unmarried, start dealing with these am-I-ready-for-this questions after the in-utero child is already on the way.

          As for whether single women who actively seek to have children,  “. . .truly truly think very carefully and deeply. . .” about their choice, I would ask do married women, consciously deciding to have children, ask themselves am-I-ready-for-this questions?  I’m certain they do, so why do people assume single women don’t?  To go through the processes of donor insemination, IVF or adoption, by definition requires big investments in time and money, AND a lot of thought.  When going through the adoption process, I had to demonstrate that I had a stable job; adequate savings; a safe and clean home; family and social support; an understanding of child development;  available and willing male role models;  an appropriate plan for my child should I die;  a clear criminal record; and the methods I would use to discipline the child were discussed.  The IVF clinics I have worked with have a psychologist on staff who goes through a talking through process with the prospective parents to make sure that, if married, the relationship is solid, and the prospective parents have thought through their decision.  Single women adopting or using assisted reproductive services are questioned about their ability and motives to parent way more than married biological parents are!

          When people ask if single moms have “very carefully and deeply” considered the implications of their decision, I think what they are really saying is they believe not having a father full time in the house will harm the children.  It’s okay to say it out loud, because single moms do take the implications of not having a husband/father seriously all throughout the process of planning, having, and raising their children.  I will try to give you an idea how the lives of single moms and their children play out.

          Single women don’t exist in a bubble by themselves.  They are surrounded by family and friends, half of whom are men.  The majority of women who have unplanned pregnancies when young and single, do wind up getting married, sometimes to the biological father.  In contrast, some women who were married when they had their kids, wind up being single moms due to divorce (and the disappearance of the father) or the death of their husband.  The family and social situation a child arrives into when born, isn’t guaranteed to stay that way during his or her childhood.  Sure, being born to married parents gives a child the best chance of having a father present in the home for the duration of his or her childhood.  But many kids born to single moms wind up with a father in the house, too.  I won’t give any examples because I’m sure everyone reading this knows several families that are living life in a non-TMC way.

          I got pregnant with my oldest child when I very young.  When my now adult (college educated, married with two kids) son was young he did notice that families were different and he began to ask questions when he was 5 or 6.  He would ask me “How come Jason has a dad and I don’t?” He would say he wanted a dad and asked me to get married.  As a parent you answer the questions as simply and honestly as possible in an age appropriate way.  We (my extended family and I) made sure he spent plenty of time with my brother and BIL.  I believe it was my BIL who showed him how to pee in the toilet standing up.  My aunt and sister watched him when I was in school or working, so he had a stable and loving environment.  When he was in his early teens, he went through a period where he was angry with his dad (not involved and no chid support).  I acknowledged his feelings while also adding in that we were both young and foolish when he was conceived, and his dad did the only thing he know to do.  In his early 20s, my son found his dad and they now talk several times a week and have a good relationship.

          When my son met his wife, she was the single mom of a 15 month old with a non-involved bio dad.  Because of his life story, he didn’t judge her for it, and he knew they were a package deal.  He is the only dad my granddaughter has ever known.  He did adopt her and she is aware that he arrived in her life after she was born.  She is still young, and I know she will have more challenging questions as she grows older, but I think my son is in a good position to handle them.

          Right before I turned 40, I resigned myself to the fact that the whole marriage/family thing just wasn’t happening.  In working through things, I began to question whether I needed to give up my dream of having a second child along with the dream of having a husband and a marriage.  Call it selfish if you want to, it doesn’t bother me.  Humans are the most successful species on this planet due to the drive/desire to procreate and raise children.  Most people will feel that drive/desire even if they aren’t in the (very recent in human history) social construct of a marriage.  People have always procreated outside of marriage as well as within it.  So if marriage is, as A believes, a society’s way of controlling who has children, the control has been imperfect at best.

          The biggest factor that led me to go ahead with adopting my two younger kids was that my oldest son had turned out just fine.  The second factor was timing:  If I wanted to retire in my mid 60s and do the things I wanted to do, I wanted to make sure the kids would be out of college before that.  I also want to be around to see them have children of their own.

          The adoption process takes time and money and can become all consuming.  Two and a half years after I started the process with a home study, I brought home a newborn boy, followed a year later by a newborn girl.  Both kids came to me because placements with married couples fell through, and I was home study approved, willing, and had funds available on short notice.  In my daughter’s case, a TMC picked her up from the hospital, had her for three days, then gave her back to the adoption agency because they “didn’t feel connected to her.”  (Because I guess it’s the newborn’s job to make the parents happy)  Being married doesn’t automatically mean someone is capable of being a good parent.

          A–I think the great majority of married couples raise happy, well adjusted offspring.  I also think the majority of kids from single parent homes turn out just fine too.  Sure there are challenges single parent homes have the TMCs don’t, but everyone has challenges to get through in life.  There have always been single parents throughout history.  Men died in war and from accidents, women died from complications of pregnancy and childbirth, and infectious diseases killed indiscriminately.  I think it is evolutionarily built into us as humans that we are willing to care for kids that aren’t biologically our own.  Otherwise, if father or mother died when their children were young, the kids may not survive if it wasn’t for the help of relatives and the community at large.

          It is really unfortunate that when discussing the importance of fathers, little attention is given to the many wonderful men throughout time; grandfathers, stepfathers, uncles, brothers, and neighbors, that took on the responsibility to help raise  children that weren’t their own.  We owe them a huge debt of gratitude, respect, and admiration.  We would not have survived as a species without them.

          Lastly, as someone who’s mother died when I was a child, I gotta wonder where all the experts are that show up on Ellen and Dr. Phil to talk about the implications of children being raised without a mother in the home.  Outside of Hope Edelman’s wonderful book, Motherless Daughters (published over 20 years ago) it’s just a subject that goes unmentioned when discussing issues facing children and families. Do single dads by choice receive judgmental questions about how they can possibly raise a child without a mother in the home?  If they do, it would never come from me.

    2. 5.2
      GoWithTheFlow

      “It’s killing 20-30 human embryos to get 1 or two viable ones.”  Patently false.  Don’t give out a medical opinion when you clearly have no training or background in the area. If you’re not comfortable with IVF, then don’t do it, that’s your choice.  Keep your judgements of others to yourself.

      1. 5.2.1
        Jenn

        That’s not a judgement, it’s a fact. They don’t just take out one or two eggs, they remove dozens to increase the likelihood of fertilization. Then they implant the sperm and grow all the embryos that they can, and throw out the ones who aren’t as “strong”. It’s considered medical waste instead of the beginnings of a human life. And when they don’t throw them out, the embryos are sold to make a profit, either to research facilities or to other people who want their “own” kids (but yet black market babies are still taboo?).
        I’m not judging anyone. I am judging the act of manufacturing and also killing human embryos as wrong. Which it is.

        1. anon764

          But in the Process of manufacturing embryos, Human life is Created.  Therefore, it’s good, which it is.

        2. GoWithTheFlow

          Well, you have now confirmed you really do not know anything about the procedure.  During an egg retrieval procedure, the average amount of eggs removed is 7.  Getting more than 12 is unusual.  So no, “dozens” of eggs are not removed at a time.  It is physiologically impossible.  And not all eggs are at the right point of development where successful fertilization is possible.  After fertilization, embryos are not defined or sorted by the terms “strong” or “aren’t as strong.”  They are viable or not viable. Meaning what is discarded is dead cells, kind of like in nature where an estimated 70% of eggs that are fertilized never develop, implant into the wall of the uterus, and become a pregnancy.

          As for the accusation that facilities sell unused embryos, (for profit!) that is impossible because the embryos belong to the patient, not the facility.  It is common for a woman/couple to use all of the embryos that are created from one stim cycle (where the ovaries are stimulated hormonally over one month of a woman’s cycle to get multiple eggs to enter the maturation process)  since multiple transfer procedures are often done given that the chance a pregnancy results from a cycle is 30% or less as Evan reported above.

          A woman/couple may decide to donate unused embryos to other infertile people.  It is illegal in all 50 states to sell human embryos.  The first, and largest group to facilitate this is a large established Christian adoption agency in California.  They started calling it “embryo adoption.”  That’s where the common term came from.

          Jenn, I don’t post this for your benefit.  You are a religious fanatic that is not open to examining your zealously held beliefs.  This is for the other readers Evan’s blog, who unfortunately, get a lot of inaccurate information thrown at them by people such as yourself.

      2. 5.2.2
        Jenn

        Women often go through multiple rounds of IVF in order to become pregnant. Each time, the number of eggs removed can be up to a dozen. The treatments themselves cost an average of $10 – 15,000. So I’d say if someone was spending upwards of $100000 on IVF, the number of fertilized eggs is going to be pretty high. The number of eggs doesn’t really matter anyway. One embryo dying is too many.

        I guess I don’t view children as a “right”. If children can be reduced to a commodity in this way, no matter how well-loved and wished-for they may be, then they essentially begin to be treated as products. I guess in that view, a bunch of discarded embryos doesn’t matter. Since they’re thought of as mere “clumps of cells”, it’s easy to discount the fact that these are the beginnings of human lives, each of them unique, special and intrinsically valuable. We as humans, do not have the right to create and destroy other humans.

        1. GoWithTheFlow

          Jenn,

          “Women often go through multiple rounds of IVF in order to become pregnant. Each time, the number of eggs removed can be up to a dozen.”

          Here’s how this works.  During a month, and aligned with her menstrual cycle, a woman has hormone injections and other medications to induce more than one egg to mature in her ovaries.  (In nature, multiple eggs will start the maturation process during the beginning of her cycle.  One eventually becomes dominant and turns off the other eggs via a chemical/hormonal message, so typically there is only one egg that ovulates)  The development of these eggs is monitored throughout with ultrasounds at the doc’s office.

          When the maturation of the eggs is near complete, a “trigger” medication is given and within 48 hours, the woman’s eggs will be retrieved.  After retrieval, immature eggs will be sorted out and removed if necessary.  Then the eggs are fertilized and the blastocysts are monitored for proper development.  Some eggs may not be fertilized at all, others will be fertilized but won’t develop, or they stop growing and begin to wither.  Those are the blastocysts/embryos that are discarded.  A few days after the egg retrieval, some (usually 1-3) blastocysts are transferred to the woman’s uterus.  Any remaining blastocysts are frozen.

          If the none of the transferred blastocysts implant into the uterus and start developing, then the woman will have another implantation procedure that uses some of the frozen blastocysts.  That cycle will repeat until she either becomes pregnant or all of the frozen blastocysts/embryos have been used.

          “So I’d say if someone was spending upwards of $100000 on IVF, the number of fertilized eggs is going to be pretty high.”

          Nope.

          There is a fee paid for initial office exam and tests performed.  There is another fee for the egg stim cycle, initial blastocyst transfer to the uterus, and the freezing of the remaining eggs.  If pregnancy doesn’t occur, then there is another fee for the next intrauterine transfer procedure, and so on.

          If a patient has 12 eggs harvested, maybe 8-9 will be mature enough, be successfully fertilized, and the blastocysts will stay alive and develop normally.  If a woman has 8 blastocysts (embryos) a common scenario is to transfer 2 at a time.  So she might have 4 transfer procedures for 1 stim cycle.  If she goes through all of the blastocysts, all of the exams and procedures will have occurred over 5 months time.

          Jenn,

          Please learn about IVF before you swallow the misinformation and gross exaggerations of people with a social and political agenda, who’s goal is to get you all hyped up to support said agenda.

           

        2. Jenn

          I appreciate your taking the time to explain things more fully. I’m sure you have done a lot of your own research on the subject, or might even know someone who’s had it done (or had it done yourself?).

          I’m not sure that you understand my point though – the exact number of destroyed humans per woman doesn’t really matter. Well, yes, it does but the tragedy of thousands of lives discarded aside, there is more to the story.

          The fact is, this procedure takes the loving act of conceiving a child from the marital embrace between husband and wife, and twists it into something more akin to a product to be manufactured, bought and paid for, with many lives being “discarded” along the way.

          I can understand the desire to have one’s own biological children. I myself get heartsick at the thought that I might not get to have my own kids. I pray that I will, but time is running out and I’ve had to face reality. That’s the way life is sometimes. You can’t always have everything exactly the way you want it. The illusion that we always have control over every aspect of our lives is a powerful one, but sooner or later we need to wake up and realize that we don’t get to call all the shots. God often has a better plan for us than even we could imagine. We’re just making a bigger mess by trying to manipulate things all on our own.

          Children deserve better than starting out being pieced together in a lab. They certainly deserve better than having technicians destroy them as if they’re garbage before they even had a chance at life.

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          Jenn, you have one problem: you define (and repeat over and over that you define) life at conception. So you think that these are “babies” and “lives” and “murders” and think that IVF is messing with God’s plan. The rest of us think that we’re fortunate to be scientifically advanced enough to conceive a child in a lab. Instead of focusing on the “tragedy of thousands of lives discarded,” realize that each egg is not a life discarded, and that, in fact, IVF is creating real live human beings that may otherwise never come into being. IVF is not a form of murder; it’s the creation of life and family. Please stop trying to impose your religious doctrine on everyone who disagrees with you.

        4. Jenn

          Evan, if life doesn’t begin at conception then what sets the children allowed to come into the world through IVF apart from the ones who aren’t?

          When do they count as lives? When a doctor in a lab decides that they are? Or is it that the only children who count are the ones who actually survive such an unnatural conception and implantation? If so, then why do they matter more than all the ones who didn’t make it, either by the choice of the lab techs or the mother’s body which rejected them?

          Playing God in this way is affront to His natural design for life. It’s an insult to the dignity of life itself to try to manufacture children in order to please the parents. Children are a gift that a husband and wife share when they make love, they’re not a product on an assembly line.

          We don’t get to decide if and when we get to have children. Our job is to be open to life within marriage, and pray that we might be blessed with children without resorting to such a barbaric method. Some of us might have to live with the unfulfilled desire to have kids for a while, but when trust in God is chosen rather than trying to take His job ourselves, we will be blessed. I’m sorry that you don’t agree but I’m hopeful that in time, you can come to understand why it’s so important that you not endorse this type of thing.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          I do not go to Christian sites to preach at them. Please refrain from bringing God onto my secular advice site. There is no logical response to anyone who takes her 21st century dating cues from a 2000 year old book written by scores of ill educated men in a pre scientific world.

        6. In Not Of

          Being a Christian does have it’s perks. I like the whole social outcast thing. 😉

        7. Jenn

          Because I have the right to free speech and to respectfully share my views, I choose to share God’s word anywhere I go. I’m sure you can appreciate religious liberty even if you don’t agree with it.

          You may not like to hear the truth but if you truly want to censor me, why allow my posts to come through? Why not just take down all the ones you find objectionable? I’m asking because I’m truly curious. I can see you are an intelligent man who has thought long and hard about his convictions, but you place your faith in science, which is fallible, instead of placing it in God, who is infallible.

          You pride yourself on being an extremely logical person; then why would you endorse a procedure that costs upward of tens of thousands of dollars, with only a small chance of working? Can you not see what a contradiction that is? Leaving aside the fact that it destroys many more lives than it creates, the odds of IVF actually working are less than 30% in most cases. Those aren’t great odds! They’re certainly not good enough for any rational person to justify pouring their money and their pain, anguish and hope into a procedure that has such a low chance of paying off (especially with the availability of less costly, more humane, effective ways of naturally treating infertility).

          The desire to have one’s own children is natural and God-given. But just because we might want to be blessed with children of our own doesn’t mean we have a right to be.

        8. Evan Marc Katz

          1. You may not like to hear the truth but if you truly want to censor me, why allow my posts to come through?

          a. You’re not offering truth. You just believe you are.
          b. I don’t censor people unless they offer personal insults. Ideas (even bad ones) are allowed through.

          2. Why not just take down all the ones you find objectionable?

          Because, however combative I am, I am glad to let all ideas (including silly ones) see the light of day. Usually, people can distinguish for themselves whose comments carry greater weight.

          3. “You place your faith in science, which is fallible, instead of placing it in God, who is infallible.”

          Hahahahahahahahahaha! Sorry. That sentence just speaks for itself, which is why responding to you is futile.

          4. Can you not see what a contradiction that is?

          You might want to look up the word contradiction. People make an investment in science to do what their bodies are failing to do: produce a baby. It is no different than securing a small business loan to open a restaurant. You have a dream; you put your resources to achieving that dream, no matter how long the odds. That’s not contradictory.

          So, just like the last time you were posting here regularly, you are invited to stay – and you will continually bang up against my secular, data-based, commonsense approach to dating and relationships. Or you can go back to BeliefNet to the warm embrace of others who taking their dating cues from God. It doesn’t affect me either way; I just don’t understand why you post religious things on here…since I would never go to a religious site and try to convince the believers that they’re “wrong” (the way you’re trying to do here.) In other words, I respect your “values”; you seem to have no respect for mine.

        9. Karl R

          Jenn said:

          “We don’t get to decide if and when we get to have children.”

           

          Yes we do.

          I don’t want children.  Therefore, I’ve made lifetime habit of using condoms.  I’ve generally dated women who also didn’t want children.  Many of them took birth control pills.

          My wife got her tubes tied years before she went through menopause.  And if it hadn’t been impossible for her to get pregnant, I would have gotten a vasectomy.

           

          If, for some reason, my wife and I were to change our minds about having kids, we’d most likely adopt.  Again, making the decision when and if we have kids.  Your assertion that people “don’t get to decide” is contradicted by observable reality.

          Unlike Evan, I am a christian.  And I find your assertions to be completely based on your own personal beliefs, not some kind of scriptural basis.  And if you want to debate whether your personal beliefs are supported by christian scripture, I would recommend going to http://www.religiousforums.com

          That’s an appropriate venue for that type of discussion.

          Even in an appropriate venue, you will have to do more than state your opinion and claim that it’s “God’s will”.  Otherwise, you will just be exhibiting the sin of vanity … in assuming that God’s will is automatically the same as your opinion.

        10. Shaukat

          “but you place your faith in science, which is fallible, instead of placing it in God, who is infallible.”

          This statement perfectly illustrates your religious dogma. The reason “God” is “infallible” is because religious institutions fortify the scriptures and refuse to allow revisions based on new knowledge and observations. Science is ‘fallible’ precisely because revision and falsification form its cornerstone.

    3. 5.3
      Anon764

      God invented ivf trough us, in our likeness of Him.

      1. 5.3.1
        Jenn

        We are made in His image. Not the other way around. We don’t get to do his job.

      2. 5.3.2
        Anon764

        Jenn- God gave us IVF so it was obviously His plan.

    4. 5.4
      my

      They aren’t just “clumps of cells”. They are human-beings-in-waiting, nonetheless, biology causes a lot of human-beings-in-waiting to be aborted, often before the woman isn’t even aware she is pregnant. Don not take this too lightly, not too seriously.

      As a woman who has opted not for biological children(even though they would get great genes) I am applauding Jenn for adopting. Now why would anyone insist on having a biological child when it is overly clear that there already exsist so many unwanted children in need of be taken care of?

      (And Karl- I know you motivated bringing up your facts, and I respect your intelligence, but why would the race of any child even be a factor in this?)

      1. 5.4.1
        GoWithTheFlow

        my

        “Now why would anyone insist on having a biological child when it is overly clear that there already exsist so many unwanted children in need of be taken care of?”

        Because adoption isn’t as simple and easy as some people think!

        First, in the U.S., back in the day (pre 1970-80s) most young women who got pregnant out of wedlock were forced by families and societal pressure to place their babies for adoption.  If you ever read or hear some of these women’s stories, it is incredibly sad how they were given no choice in the matter.  In some situations, blatant kidnapping occurred.  But I digress. . .  anyway, there was no shortage of babies available for adoption for couples who wanted to adopt them.

        These days, most single women with unplanned pregnancies keep their children if their family is supportive and they have a reasonably stable life.  This had led to two things;  1) There are more people who want to adopt than there are babies available for adoption; 2) The majority of women who place babies for adoption do so because huge instability in their lives makes it impossible for them to keep their babies.  And by instability I am talking about being in prison, mental illness, being drug addicted, a history of having other kids removed from their care, no relatives that are willing or able to help, etc.  You get the idea.

        As percentage of the population, more minority children are placed for adoption than white children.  despite the fact that African-American families are more likely to adopt than Caucasian families, there are still more AA babies available than AA families looking to adopt them.  Caucasians still make up the large majority of prospective adoptive parents.  Most of these white families (the majority of wannabe adoptive parents) want white babies.  Additionaly, most families want healthy babies who had healthy birth moms.  This all leads to a situation where if a white couple wants a healthy white baby, who’s birth mom comes from a stable family, and she never did drugs, got into trouble with the authorities, and the birthdad is her high school sweetheart who has the same characteristics, this couple will likely never adopt their dream child.

        (Seriously–this is exactly like the dynamic Evan describes where some women have such long lists of wants for their dream man, that there are very few who make the cut, and because of this, these women are likely to wind up unmarried.)

        So that brings us to this question:  “. . .why would the race of any child even be a factor in this?”

        Why? Because there are more African-American babies that become available for adoption than there are African-American families who want to adopt them.  And then we come down to the ugly truth:  Many white families won’t consider adopting a black baby.  Sometimes this is a good and necessary thing.  For instance if Grandpa Joe is a racist, it probably isn’t a good idea for his daughter and SIL to adopt a black child.

        That all being said, if you are a white (or Hispanic, or Asian) family that can provide a happy home for an African-American child, because of the dynamics of the adoption marketplace, you will likely get a baby sooner–and the adoption will likely cost less–than if you are a white baby only family.  The same holds true for families that are open to a baby that was exposed to drugs in-utero, has a birth mom with bipolar disorder, or with a medical condition like Hepatitis C or HIV infection.

        And then there is the money aspect.  A private domestic adoption is very expensive.  The financial risk is completely passed on to the adoptive parents by the adoption agencies.  My two adoptions were $38,000 and $25,000 respectively.  And that doesn’t factor in the ongoing costs of keeping home studies updated, and I lost some money that was paid towards an adoption when the birthmother changed her mind in the hospital.

        As for adopting from foster care, for me it was impossible since my state does not have separate tracks for foster to adoption vs. straight foster families (where the plan is to reunite the kid with the birth family).  I would have had to have been available to take a child up to a teenager, at short notice, for an indefinite length of time, and the plan would be to return the kid to his birth mom.  Job-wise alone, I wouldn’t have been able to do.  Foster kids can also have attachment problems and mental health issues related to abuse and neglect from their birth families, and not every family is able to handle that.

        As for an international adoption.  I actually started out in an international program.  I matched with, visited, and started the paperwork to adopt a medical special needs toddler.  And then the country decided to shut down adoptions, and no pathway was provided for in process families to adopt kids they had already committed to.  Guatemala, Vietnam, Kyrgyzstan, Nepal and Russia have all done this.  In Guatemala, Vietnam, Nepal and Kyrgyzstan the shutdowns were encouraged by international child welfare organizations and the U.S. Department of State, due to concerns about adoption fraud.  Investigations were warranted, but most of the kids who were caught in process were never reunited with birth families, or placed with adoptive families in-country, and they remain institutionalized to this day.  In Russia, Putin just wanted to give a big Ef you to the U.S. government (you know, to prove how tough he is and all) so many of Russia’s 700,000 kids in orphanages lost their chance to have families of their own.

        International adoption is also very expensive.  It isn’t uncommon for an IA to cost over $40,000.  As with with domestic adoption, all of the financial risk is passed on to the families.  A government decides to not allow your in process adoption?  Too bad, that money is gone.  China won’t let overweight people adopt, and most countries have age restrictions, or will only let married couples adopt.  And then there are the risks of attachment disorders, or a child having sequelae from in-utero drug and alcohol exposure.  It is also far too common for these kids to have been physically and sexually abused.  As with domestic adoption, if the prospective adoptive family isn’t equipped to deal with these potential issues, then it isn’t a good match for either the child or the parent(s).

        So yes, there are way too many children in the world that are housed in institutions, or in temporary care settings, that need families.  There are also many families around the world who are willing to provide homes for these kids.  The problem is there are way too many man-made obstacles in place for parentless kids to be placed into the families that want them.

  6. 6
    Chance

    I’m just going to go ahead and tee this up:  most women shouldn’t consider IVF as an option because they can’t afford it.  To be frank, unless you have the means to comfortably save for a proper retirement, then you can’t afford it.  This pretty much means that you need to put the IRS max into your 401k, and have additional savings on top of this.  Otherwise, you run a high risk of putting an undue burden on society and your child.

     

    It seems like a lot of people go into debt to pursue IVF, and even as it relates to the people who don’t have to go into debt, they still can’t really afford it because money that should go into retirement or a liquid asset buffer is being siphoned off into this idea that they are entitled to reproduce.  I think IVF is yet another example of a “necessity” that is beyond most people’s means that is contributing to the growing problem of not having enough people to pull the wagon.

    1. 6.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Yeah, Chance, it’s not your place to say.

      If a woman wants to have a biological kid and it costs her $40K to do so, that’s her prerogative. It’s the same price as a Toyota Highlander. Really, she can handle it. The issue is more that many women haven’t considered how very tough it is to be a single working mother – to have no father figure, no second income, no one to help with the changing and feeding – it drains your energy and you never get a break when you’re done with work. I have many readers who think “I’ll have a kid and THEN I’ll meet a guy!” Uh uh. If you have an IVF baby alone, you’re probably not going on a date until your kid is in kindergarten fulltime. That’s how dominating it is to be a single mother to a toddler with no father.

      1. 6.1.1
        Chance

        Yeah, actually, it is my place to say because we all have an obligation to do what we can to not become a burden on society.  It’s my business.  Most people can’t really afford the Highlander, either.  Just because someone can technically pay for it doesn’t mean he/she can afford it.  If someone doesn’t save properly for retirement (and, from what I can tell with my generation, hardly anyone does), then someone else will have to pay for it.  Way too many people are not “paying themselves first”, if you will, and instead are buying things that are viewed as necessities when they really aren’t.

         

        It’s unfortunate that we haven’t done what Australia does, and require people to contribute to their own retirement plan.

    2. 6.2
      GoWithTheFlow

      Some medical insurance plans cover IVF, or will cover parts of it, like the medications.  When people want something bad enough, they find a way;  second jobs, smaller houses, cheaper cars, inheritance money etc.  Many prospective grandparents will gladly put money towards the effort.

      1. 6.2.1
        Chance

        …and taking out a loan.  That’s another way a lot of them seem to be doing it.  Please don’t misunderstand, there’s no judgment here.  However, if once cannot afford IVF without making significant adjustments to how he/she/they should save or relying on someone else, then one cannot really afford to have a baby.

        1. GoWithTheFlow

          “However, if once cannot afford IVF without making significant adjustments to how he/she/they should save or relying on someone else, then one cannot really afford to have a baby.”

          Yes, that’s judgmental.  It’s kind of like when people preface a criticism or insult with “Nothing personal, but. . .”  Their judgement is masked as concern.

          My grandparents game me money to pay for college.  So I guess that means I really couldn’t afford college and should not have gone.

          I worked a series of several part time jobs to pay for college and med school.  So I guess that means I really couldn’t afford college and med school and should not have gone.

          I used up the money in a savings account that I received when my mother passed away to fund college.  So I guess I really couldn’t afford college and should not have gone.

          I relied on loans to pay for medical school.  So I guess I really couldn’t afford medical school and should not have gone.

          My brother in law took on a second job after my oldest niece was born to pay the bills.  So I guess my sis and BIL couldn’t afford kids so they shouldn’t have had any.

          If people have to make “significant adjustments” to how they spend, live, or save, or if a family member or friend wants to help them financially to have a baby what’s it to you?  I don’t understand the huge amount of concern you have about this.

          Having to work through the specifics of how to fund IVF may actually lead a family to focus on finances and learn essential financial planning skills they didn’t have before.

           

        2. Chance

          Respectfully, it’s not judgment.  It’s an assessment of an ability to bear the costs of raising a child and properly save for retirement based on the circumstances.  It really shouldn’t be so controversial.  Also, your examples with the college are an “apples-to-oranges” comparison.

  7. 7
    Amanda

    Women in their late 20s & early 30s with the means should also consider freezing their eggs – it buys you a little bit of insurance against aging ovaries.

  8. 8
    Rose

    I had ovarian issues (cysts, etc) in my early 20s and at the time the doctors told me I would not be able to conceive naturally.  So soon after I got married we tried IVF and on the second try I became pregnant.  Both times my doctor transferred 2 embryos (blastocysts) and on the second try one of the embryos took and I gave birth to a healthy baby several months ago.  I’m 31 so my egg quality probably isn’t too bad.  There were a lot of self-administered injections and blood draws.  I have been saving up for IVF since my early 20s and so we’re financially prepared.

     

    I think IVF and the potential of freezing one’s eggs give women a feeling that they’ve got time, but women should still be careful to not put it off too long.  I agree with Evan in that it would have been very difficult to do alone, with no partner.  I also want to add though, it’s not just the “taking care of a baby” part that is difficult.  The IVF process itself is very emotionally draining and is a rollercoaster ride of stress and uncertainty, so having a partner there for support was really important for me.

  9. 9
    Fusee

    I’m not familiar with IVF and I don’t know anyone personally who conceived by IVF. However I know a lesbian woman who conceived with donor sperm through artificial insemination, as well as a couple who got pregnant with their second child also through artificial insemination, so I wanted to clarify that IVF is not the only route to conceive as a single woman, and should not be the first method used to address infertility as a couple. Artificial insemination is less invasive and less costly than IVF.

    I agree with abstaining from judgement. The drive to have children is completely natural, biological, and deeply emotional. I actually feel lucky not to feel such drive, as it has saved me a lot of pressure when I was still dating (and now saves me and my husband a lot of money), but I completely understand women who want a child as it’s more normal than not desiring any.

    I also relate to Chance’s opinion @6 as I highly value responsibility, long-term planning, and saving for retirement, yet understand better people who would spend $$$$$ on IVF than on a luxury car. No judgment in either case, just the opinion that the drive to conceive, carry, and raise your biological child is more justifiable that the need for a purely materialistic status symbol.

    Again, I have no drive for either. I don’t want kids, I don’t like driving, and we save 50% of our after-tax income : )

  10. 10
    Michelle

    I have two beautiful children both conceived through IVF.  Or, as I prefer to say, conceived in true love….with a lot of help!  I gave birth to my daughter at 40, and my son at 41.  Over the course of the 3 brutal years (yes, brutal) that it took for me to get pregnant, I can assure you that IVF is a deeply personal and individual experience.  Every story is different and for each woman/couple going through it there are different aspects that are found to be stressful.  For some women it is the emotional toll, for others it is the financial demands, for some you could feel their marriages falling apart in the waiting room from the stress, for others it is the physical aspect and so on.  What is in common is the deep desire and HOPE to get pregnant that overrides everything else.  It is something you go into purely on hope and for most women becomes a process of acceptance and moving forward.  First you accept that you won’t get pregnant the “easy way” and have that moment where you wake up one morning and have that spontaneous moment of  “OMG I am pregnant.”  But, you move forward.  Then you accept that IUI won’t work and you start to get nervous.  But, you move forward because of course, the first round of IVF will work.  Till it doesn’t.  Then you accept and keep moving forward.  Again and again and again.  Hopefully, like me, you get lucky.

    my advice to other women is always the same:

    – if you are younger and want to put off having kids, no judgement (I did so myself!), but educate yourself by having an honest discussion with your doctor and consider a sort of “insurance policy” like freezing your eggs.

    -make sure to find a doctor that you feel the most comfortable with as well as an overall practice that suits you.  It is stressful, you are on hormones, you are there A LOT, you need it to feel right to you.

    – there should never be any blame.  If you are in a marriage or relationship, don’t blame him and don’t let him blame you.  It is a “we” thing.  WE are going through this to have a baby that WE will raise.  If you are going it alone, don’t blame or beat yourself up.  It is destructive.

    -talk about it!  Women need to discuss this topic more, as do men.

    -if IVF does not work for you, know that there are a lot of ways to create a family and be a mommy.  No single way is the right one and only you can know the answer to what is right for yourself.

    -always have HOPE

    For what it is worth, IVF was truly the most horrible, depressing, all consuming experience of my life and I would do it all over again in a second.  The thousands of shots, pills, painful tests, mood swings, stress, constant rearranging of my life around my cycle, devastating let downs, and $115,000 that we spent is no comparison to the feeling of my heart exploding with joy each time I hear my son giggle, or seeing my husband snuggle our daughter.  Even thinking about it makes my heart smile.

  11. 11
    A

    Actually, there IS hope for women over 40 who want to conceive their own biological children. Apart from egg freezing, there is potential of mitochondial DNA donation, which can become widespread reality in the future. This is the proverbial three parent baby. The child will inherit your husbands features as well as your own, BUT to get to that stage, the mitochondrial DNA of a young female donor will need to be injected into your “old” egg to make it “young”. The problem with “old” eggs is that the mitochondrial DNA is so degraded that it cannot control the very crucial process of initiating and directing cell division of the zygote (egg and sperm fused). Without the mitochondrial DNA functioning property, there is NO baby – just a clump of cells. So even if egg freezing fails (which probably would since the mitochondrial DNA in the eggs are so so fragile), you can still resort MTDNA donation.

     

    p.s. MTDNA is only present in the egg, not the sperm, and it is passed exclusively through the female line. Sometimes I think that is why we have sex differences in the way men and women procreate, and the fact the reproductive window for women is a lot narrower than for men.

  12. 12
    Jenn

    Actually, there’s a more humane option than that: napro technology. Natural ways to increase fertility through non-invasive methods such as using a woman’s menstrual cycle, vital signs and drugs which boost her natural body processes to create an optimum chance of fertilization. No lab techs needed and far less human lives prematurely lost than with IVF. This particular way is still difficult, but not nearly as costly as IVF and it’s about as effective too.

  13. 13
    Kate

    Ahhh, Jen…. Did you think that you were free to express your opinion?  The Leftist Thought Police are not a tolerant bunch, you know…   They consider themselves to be an authority on EVERYTHING.  And, they will belittle anyone with whom they disagree.  In the future, should you wish to speak, please make sure that your comments accurately reflect the thoughts and opinions of the Leftist Thought Police.  This will allow the rest of us to avoid hearing their smug condescension and horrified indignation.  Thank you.

    1. 13.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      As someone on the left, I find your arrogance, name calling and dismissiveness offputting. That’s not politics; it’s interpersonal communication.

  14. 14
    Kate

    Btw Jenn, if you need help identifying the LTP, here are some things to look for…

    They insist on rigid conformity.  No debate is allowed.  They’ll screech things like, “The debate on climate change is settled!  No more discussion!”  Or, “I KNOW when life begins and you don’t!  I have spoken!  No more debate!”

    They will attack and ostracize anyone with whom they disagree.  Note the comment above about making “outcasts” of people of a faith tradition other than theirs.

    If you still have trouble identifying the Leftist Thought Police, here is biggest giveaway… They can’t take a joke and any party they attend on large numbers is guaranteed to suck.  Fun company they are not.

    1. 14.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Kate,

      There are 88,000 comments on this blog. There’s plenty of debate. However, contrary to what you may believe, not all ideas are created equal. Just because you (or anyone) believes in something passionately doesn’t mean it’s true. So to the women who insist that they get married in less than a year, studies show that this is, in general, a bad idea, and a common predictor of divorce. That’s just one example.

      I’m not going to come to terms with everyone in the world on whether life begins at conception, at 10 weeks, at the first trimester, when the fetus is viable in the real world, or at birth itself. Reasonable people can disagree. The pushback I have with Jenn is that she takes her dating advice from the Bible. I do not. As such, she can scream and shout all she want and the only people she will persuade are likeminded people who live their lives around religious dogma. That’s fair. But it’s judgmental of HER to shame and judge people who do NOT take our cues from Christianity. In other words, I don’t care what you do, what Jenn does, or what anybody does. What I will not tolerate is people telling me that my advice is “bad” or “wrong” just because you don’t agree with it.

      And – for what it’s worth – if you really want a humorless crowd, you’re barking up the wrong tree. It’s not a coincidence that comedians and performers are more liberal, tolerant, creative and open minded. By the very definition of conservatism, it’s about following precedent, keeping order, averse to change, desiring a turning back of the clock instead of a forward progression. Comedy writers (and I was one of them) are NOT politically correct – we make fun of everybody, as it should be. But we are largely educated, secular, and believe in choice and opportunity for women, blacks, gays, etc. I don’t know why that’s controversial, but if you don’t like the worldview of this blog, the internet is a big place. You may return to a site with no liberals on it.

  15. 15
    Kate

    Evan, did I say I was “on the left” or “on the right”?  Ahh, no I didn’t.  I am against the Thought Police.  Not my fault that 99% of them are on the left.  I was raised in a strict Athiest household.    But, damn…their bigoted arrogant intolerance toward those with whom they disagree makes me embarrassed to admit that.   Evan, you are offended?  I am SHOCKED.  People on the left are typically so tough to offend…lol.  Dismissive?  You weren’t “dismissive” of Jenn’s beliefs?  That brings me to yet another characteristic of the LTP… They can criticize others but are aghast when someone criticizes them.  They never run short on righteous and thoroughly pious indignation.

    1. 15.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Being intolerant of intolerant people isn’t intolerant.

      In other words, if Person X is biased against Jews and I stand up to that intolerance, that doesn’t mean I’m an intolerant person. I completely believe in Jenn’s right to do what she wants with her body and her life. I’m not trying to impose my values on her. Jenn came to MY site to tell me that I was wrong for promoting IVF. So in this case, who was on the offensive and who was on the defensive?

      You came to my house and insulted the host. You are bothered by the fact that I don’t find this type of behavior pleasant. I don’t see anything remotely surprising about it.

      I’m not a member of the Thought Police. Do whatever you want without hurting others. I just don’t think you’re going to win any battles when you come to my site and attack me over my very reasonable, logical, data-driven beliefs.

      Once again: between you and me, YOU are the one who is attacking me because YOU didn’t like something I wrote. When I read things I don’t like, I ignore them. You see fit to post nasty things. So yes, I am intolerant of nasty people.

    2. 15.2
      Jenn

      Kate,

      I think you misunderstand what I’m doing when I refute Evan’s point of view. I’m not trying to cut him down or to insult him. If it comes across that way, I do apologize. I sense that’s he’s a very good man, who is incredibly talented and smart. I admit I obviously do disagree with his ideology much of the time; I just think that a Catholic perspective is warranted on the issues he presents in his blog. It’s important to me that people who read the articles here consider the wider moral implications of a complicated issue like IVF, not just whether or not it’s “affordable”. But I don’t hate Evan or try to insult him for having the views he has (if that’s how it comes across, again, I am sorry – after all, the Internet does have its drawbacks).

      I can’t really explain why I’ve kept coming back to this blog over the last couple of years, but as long as he’s open to allowing my views, however much he may mock them, I still see it as important to keep offering a different perspective to Evan and his readers.

      I think that it’s better to have a calm, respectful dialogue with people who think differently than us, don’t you?

      Besides, how boring the world would be if we always agreed on everything? 😛 Yes, even we “stuffy Catholics” can have a sense of humor!

  16. 16
    Kate

    Jenn, here is a helpful hint of what to look for when you are attempting to identify a member of the forever haughty Leftist Thought Police…the members of the Westboro Baptist Church are a perfect example.  The “God hates fags” wackjobs?  Yep, registered Democrats every last one.  They donated $250,000 to Al Gore and continue to donate large sums to ONLY liberal democrats.  Nowadays, here where there is intolerance, you can bet a leftist is there.  Evan, I know you won’t publish these comments.  I am fully aware that the LTP worships themselves and their ideology with a fervor that rivals that of an Isis member’s dedication to radical Islam.  I find the LTP fascinating.  But then, I’ve been accused to being TOO tolerant.  So, your attitudes are foreign to me.

    1. 16.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Here’s your comment, further proof that you know nothing about me, Kate.

      You cite an example of one religious demagogue who happens to vote Democratic and you think you’ve made your point? Please.

      This post was about IVF. You’ve turned it into your own fight against the “Leftist Thought Police” of which you believe I’m a member.

      Go search the archives on here for the left wing feminists who would disagree with you.

      More importantly, get out of here. Not because I can’t handle dissent, but rather, because you’ve already proven with your ad hominem attacks that you’re not a fair debate partner, and therefore, a waste of my time. Good luck to you in love, either way.

      Best,

      Evan

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