Why Gender Feminists Ignore Science That Doesn’t Confirm Their Beliefs.

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I know I recently shared a cartoon about whether men and women were different. I found it amusing in how it acknowledged and poked fun at common gender stereotypes. Whether or not each stereotype applies to you doesn’t undermine the idea that such stereotypes apply to a lot of people – including my wife and I.

Today’s post is a little more serious, because it talks about something that is unique and dangerous in our partisan post-fact world: the idea that beliefs about how the world should work are more valid than facts about how the world actually does work.

There is nothing wrong with being a feminist. Hell, I’m a feminist because I believe women are equal and they deserve 100% equal rights and opportunity…

Witness this article in the LA Times, which poses a very challenging question: “Are gender feminists and transgender activists undermining science?” Now, to be clear: there is nothing wrong with being  a feminist. Hell, I’m a feminist because I believe women are equal and they deserve 100% equal rights and opportunity (a stance I don’t even know one can argue with). Similarly, there is nothing wrong with being transgender. The reason this piece was written is that their respective political beliefs  fly in the face of science as much as a belief in creationism flies in the face of evolution.

“Gender feminists – who are distinct from traditional equity feminists –  refuse to acknowledge the role of evolution in shaping the human brain, and instead promote the idea that sex differences are caused by a socialization process that begins at birth. Gender, according to them, is a construct; we are born as blank slates and it is parents and society at large that produce  the differences we see between women and men in adulthood…  

But group of researchers…found that brains could be correctly identified as female or male with 69% to 77% accuracy. In another study, published in 2016, researchers used a larger sample in conjunction with higher-resolution neuroimaging and were able to successfully classify a brain by its sex 93% of the time.”

Feelings don’t override facts.

I  don’t have any stake in the outcome of this. If women and men’s brains are exactly the same, I’m fine with that, too. I’m just looking for facts to help us better understand the world. Scientists use the scientific method and either eliminate theories or affirm theories to  educate the general public. Vaccines don’t cause autism. Natural supplements don’t work. Climate change is real. Women’s fertility plummets after 40. And yes, women and men are different biologically. Whether you want to hear this or agree with this doesn’t change that this is the scientific consensus. Feelings don’t override facts.

The author of the LA Times piece, Debra W Soh, continues, “In my experience, proponents touting the “blank slate” view are willing to agree, in private conversations, that neurological sex differences do exist, but they fear that acknowledging as much publicly will justify female oppression. This is backward. As it stands, female-typical traits are seen as inferior and less worthy of respect. This is the real issue the movement fails to address: Nobody wants to be female-typical, not even women.

Distortion of science hinders progress. When gender feminists start refuting basic biology, people stop listening, and the larger point about equality is lost.”

Do you know anybody whose beliefs are anti-science and will not be changed by overwhelming evidence? Your thoughts, as always, are  greatly appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 21
    Jeremy

    Emily, what you are describing regarding the “erotic love” is classic dopamine.   And both GWTF and Evan have describe the best ways to fight a dopamine craving – create fences to avoid temptation (a la Evan) and talk yourself through the logic and consequences (a la GWTF).   That type of craving is equally common in both men and women and has nothing to do with anyone’s definition of hypergamy.   It is the same as the desire to do anything for a hit of crack.

     

    GWTF – you wrote “there are as many reasons women leave men as there are women who leave men.”   I think this is both true and untrue.   While the exact reasons may vary, I think there are common themes.   Here are some big ones: 1) The man’s behaviour or appearance changed and she no longer wanted to be with him.   2) Hedonic adaptation – she got what she wanted and the no longer wanted it.   She instead wanted something else that she did not currently have.    3). Her priorities changed along with her calculus of attraction, and her husband did not change. Almost every divorce I know of can fall into one of those 3 categories to some extent.   Male-initiated divorce happens commonly for the first 2 reasons, not so much for the third.

     

    Shaukat – I think I understand where you are coming from, and we are defining “hypergamy” differently, which is why we are disagreeing on whether it continues after marriage.   I agree that in the animal world, females often search for males who are of higher SMV prior to mating.   Yet Richard Dawkins, in his book The Selfish Gene, specifically mentions this and wonders aloud why in Homo sapiens the male is not the one who gets physically dressed up to attract the female.   He concludes that for whatever reason, we have reached an evolutionary stable system (ESS) which is unlike much of the animal kingdom.   And although I have observed a few couples where the man is of higher physical SMV than the woman, in general it is the opposite.   In the couples I know of, the most stable structure tends to be a slightly better looking wife with a higher-earning husband.   He gets the hot woman he fantasizes about, she gets the lifestyle she fantasizes about.   In the couples I know of where the husband had higher physical SMV, he almost always ended up cheating.   YMMV.

    1. 21.1
      Emily, the original

      Jeremy,

      what you are describing regarding the “erotic love” is classic dopamine.   And both GWTF and Evan have describe the best ways to fight a dopamine craving — create fences to avoid temptation (a la Evan) and talk yourself through the logic and consequences (a la GWTF).   That type of craving is equally common in both men and women and has nothing to do with anyone’s definition of hypergamy.

      It could have to do with hypergamy if a person suddenly feels that for someone but has never felt that way about the spouse. The person could think, “Ah, this is how it’s supposed to feel.” Some people won’t be able to talk themselves out if it (not everyone is master of their feelings) and will not understand the consequences until much later. Have you heard of Lionel Shriver? She’s an author who wrote a book about leaving the comfortable marriage for the passionate one and the trade offs in both.

      1. 21.1.1
        Tom 10

         
        @ Emily, the original #21.1
         
        “The person could think, “Ah, this is how it’s supposed to feel.” Some people won’t be able to talk themselves out if it (not everyone is master of their feelings)”
         
          
         
        And those people aren’t marriage material. I think there is an onus on every dater to use the dating process to analytically assess the ability of the person they’re dating to control their feelings (especially their propensity to confusing chemistry with love) and dump those who set off warning bells.
         
          
         
        Failing to do so is asking for trouble later:

        https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/marriage/why-controlling-your-emotions-is-key-to-successful-marriage/
         

        1. KK

          Tom10, “And those people aren’t marriage material”.

          Bingo!

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Tom10,

          Perhaps not surprisingly, my best friend’s tale of managing a very strong attraction to someone that I wrote about above  happened while she and I were in residency training (specialty training after medical school in the U.S.).   Which is a four year long course in how to manage your emotions.   Because 1) The resident physician’s feelings don’t matter 2) Nobody cares 3) Disruptive displays of emotion are swiftly punished.

          Emily,

          “The person could think, “Ah, this is how it’s  supposed  to feel.”  

          Until it doesn’t feel like that anymore!   Statistically, not many people wind up marrying their partners in the affairs that end their marriages.   Of those that do, the divorce rates are sky high for those marriages.

          People who have a strong need for novelty and engage is risk taking behavior i.e. dopamine seekers or the slang term adrenaline junkies, are more likely to engage in affairs than people who are not.   These people may, biochemically,  have a more exaggerated response to dopamine, norepinephrine, and other neurotransmitters in the pleasure and reward centers of the  brain.   So they get a big reward for their risk taking behavior, and this may override the potential for pain from consequences of the behavior.

        3. Emily, the originala

          Tom10,

          I think there is an onus on every dater to use the dating process to analytically assess the ability of the person they’re dating to control their feelings (especially their propensity to confusing chemistry with love) and dump those who set off warning bells.

          I guess I just never looked at dating that analytically. So when you date a woman, do you look for potential partners with whom you don’t feel the dopamine high, even in the beginning? (Granted not everyone feels that. I have a male friend who has never really been ga ga infatuated with anyone. He’s just not wired that way.)

          GoWiththeFlow,

          I’ll ask you the same question: Do you look for partners with whom you don’t feel the dopamine high specifically because you worry this person could be a risk taker?

            

           

          People who have a strong need for novelty and engage is risk taking behavior i.e. dopamine seekers or the slang term adrenaline junkies, are more likely to engage in affairs than people who are not.

        4. Emily, the originala

          Sorry. I accidentally posted GoWiththeFlow’s comment:   People who have a strong need for novelty and engage is risk taking behavior i.e. dopamine seekers or the slang term adrenaline junkies, are more likely to engage in affairs than people who are not.

           

        5. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          A big hint that a person is a relationship adrenaline junkie is that they will love bomb you at the very beginning.   Everyone is usually excited and hopeful when they meet someone  and there is mutual attraction plus they are interesting and fun.   But someone who laser focuses on you as “the one” right from the beginning, shows up at your house unannounced, buys expensive gifts, invites you away on a trip for the  2nd weekend after you have met, etc.   Yeah, they’re getting their drug hit!   As soon as things start getting routine, or inconvenient, or a little rough, then the distancing behavior sets in.   Because the sense of novelty is wearing off and they are starting to get restless.

          Or if you two are fighting hard ALOT, and making up hard ALOT.   As a couple you are using conflict to generate the adrenaline, novelty and excitement.   Maybe because you just don’t have a lot to talk about and the companionate side is lacking.   I have known a few couples like this.   They are exhausting to be around.   Two of these couple work together.   They drag EVERYONE around them into their cyclone.   I told my scheduler at work that I would rather live in a cardboard box under a freeway overpass than work with these people.   This is my idea of relationship hell.

          I think everyone wants to feel some flames flicker when they meet.   However it’s up to us to keep our heads in the game and make sure words match behavior, and that the behavior is consistent and good.   Chemistry doesn’t = merit.   You need some of the first and a lot of the later.   If merit = 7 or  less, walk away.   You’re gonads are trying to get you in trouble.   Like teenage boys are told, don’t let the lower head make the decisions, use your upper head.

          If an adrenaline junkie wants to go skydiving, they have to find a place nearby, book a date for their jump, show up, go through the training and checks, get on the plane and THEN they get to jump. You can choose to go skydiving with them, or you have several points before the jump where you can back out.   You just have to not get so swept up in the moment that you lose sight of what is good for you.

          So some dopamine induced heart fluttering is good.   Especially when the merit stuff combines with it to make your heart beat even faster.   But all dopamine rush and no merit?   Leads to one heck of a crash.

        6. Tom10

           
          @ GoWiththeFlow
           
          “happened while she and I were in residency training (specialty training after medical school in the U.S.).   Which is a four year long course in how to manage your emotions.”
           
            
           
          On that topic, I’ve always felt that there should be a subject in the education curriculum for young people on how to manage their emotions, as they have such a profound and long-lasting significant in all aspects of our lives.
           
            
           
          @ Emily, the Original
           
          “I guess I just never looked at dating that analytically. So when you date a woman, do you look for potential partners with whom you don’t feel the dopamine high, even in the beginning?”
           
            
           
          Well I think, ultimately, it comes down to what your specific dating goal is (it doesn’t really matter what the particular goal is per se) and then to tailor your dating behavior and analysis of those you date accordingly.
           
            
           
          So as sex was my primary (only) goal throughout my 20s I tailored my behavior (i.e. learned how to generate instant chemistry – no mean feat for men) and analysis of women (i.e. learned how to identify women responsive to instant chemistry) to achieve this goal. Once I gathered enough information to conclude that our goals were different I would end the situation (sometimes this process could be achieved in minutes).
           
            
           
          Now that as I’m in my 30s and my priorities are moving towards long-term dating, the importance of chemistry has reduced as it has no relevance to my ultimate goal. Therefore, whenever I meet those who have no goals, confused goals (i.e. those who just “see what happens” or “go with the flow” haha  😉 )  or those who conflate long-term and short-term dating behavior I swiftly move on.
           
            
          All that said, there are no guarantees in anyone’s dating journey; all we can do is play the odds in our favor. Failing to analyze someone’s ability to control their emotions or succumb to chemistry is a game of poor odds.
           

        7. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          So as sex was my primary (only) goal throughout my 20s I tailored my behavior (i.e. learned how to generate instant chemistry — no mean feat for men) and analysis of women (i.e. learned how to identify women responsive to instant chemistry) to achieve this goal.

          I’m curious … how do you create instant chemistry? (No snark intended.)   As we’ve discussed on this post, it’s a dopamine surge. It’s physiological. I’ve certainly felt it (though it is rare), but there was nothing the guy could have done to create it from nothing. All he could do was increase or decrease it depending on how he interacted with me.

        8. Shaukat

          So as sex was my primary (only) goal throughout my 20s I tailored my behavior (i.e. learned how to generate instant chemistry — no mean feat for men)

          Hi Tom, I’d also be interested  in having you elaborate on this point.   In my experience, chemistry is generated through banter, confidence and sex appeal (not necessarily in that order), but if you’re referring to a specific strategy you utilize,  I’m interested in hearing more about it.

        9. Tom10

          @ Emily, the original
          “I’m curious … how do you create instant chemistry?
            
          Well it depends on the woman and what turns her on.
            
          “it’s a dopamine surge. It’s physiological.”
            
          Agreed.
            
          But what is it about a particular guy that causes this dopamine surge? My personal theory is that it’s her body interpreting his genes as being of high quality (and to some — albeit limited – extent, his ability to provide).
            
          So the guy has to assess what her attraction triggers are, demonstrate – via proxy – that his genes are high quality, and then tailor his efforts to specifically target her attraction triggers.
            
          Some women are primarily visual (shock horror – some women are as visual as men!). So if you can meet her threshold of attractiveness she should feel chemistry — even if the guy doesn’t do anything else at all. So by simply maximizing his appearance a guy can create instant chemistry with a certain percentage of women (visually motivated women who are at his physical attractiveness level or lower). Her appearance will give cues as to where she stands on this issue.
            
          Some women consider themselves intellectual, so they’ll only feel chemistry if the guy she’s talking to is her intellectual equal or – even better – superior. Simply demonstrating your smarts through witty conversation should create chemistry. Female doctors and lawyers are typically like this in my experience. Whereas other women, who have no intellectual aspirations, recoil against smart guys (fearing he might look down on her) so for those women he should hide all pretensions. Her college course and/or job should give cues as to where she stands on the issue.
            
          Other women are turned on by creativity; so implying your creativity somehow — ideally through demonstration – should create chemistry. Case in point; I’m a pianist in my spare time so a short performance, circumstances permitting (i.e. if there was a handy piano available) proved very effective in this regard (I know that’s corny, but hey, a guy’s gotta play to his strengths!). I literally saw a girl’s pupils dilate during one performance — I swear to God that happened. Cues for where she stands on this issue can be difficult to establish, but the location you’re in (i.e. a music venue perhaps) might give clues or failing that, through general conversation.
            
          Some women are turned on by status or upper-middle class lifestyles (I think this is her provisioning instincts at play). So by playing up his credentials in this regard he’ll make progress; i.e. carefully referencing the parts of his background which will fit in with her ideal narrative. Other women are the opposite and reject materialism; so again, the guy has to carefully select the information he decides to share with her on this matter. Where she’s from should give cues as to where she stands on the issue.
            
          Do you see where I’m going with this? The principles outlined above apply to all aspects of the particular woman in question. It’s kinda a whole package thing — you gotta hit as many triggers as quickly and as subtly as possible, all through seemingly entirely normal banter.
            
          Does any of that make sense or am I talking nonsense?
            
          @ Shaukat
          “In my experience, chemistry is generated through banter, confidence and sex appeal (not necessarily in that order)”
            
          Agreed.
            
          “but if you’re referring to a specific strategy you utilize,  I’m interested in hearing more about it.”
            
          Well it’s not so much a specific strategy, rather forensically analyzing the particular woman in question, and then focusing your energy to demonstrating how you’re the guy who best fulfills her particular desires.
            
          Your thoughts?

        10. KK

          “I’ve certainly felt it (though it is rare), but there was nothing the guy could have done to create it from nothing. All he could do was increase or decrease it depending on how he interacted with me”.

          My experience has been the same, Emily. What’s interesting is that I’ve always had a certain “type” I’m physically attracted to. Tall, medium to large build, medium to dark hair, and light eyes. However, each time I’ve experienced intense chemistry, which has only been a handful of times, those men were not even close to my “type”.

          Not long ago, I had contacted someone about a personal business matter and we were having trouble meeting due to locations and schedules, so he suggested we meet for lunch. Our conversations had been pretty brief, but I distinctly remembered him mentioning something about his fiancé.

          Anyway, he texted me to let me know he had made it to the restaurant early and told me where he was sitting. As I walked in, I saw him from a distance and I was thinking, “holy moly, he looks intimidating”. By intimidating, I mean kinda scary. We spoke briefly about the business matter and then the conversation turned personal. He was extremely kind and had a softness about him. I felt extreme chemistry for this guy and I could not make sense of it at all. As a matter of fact, I remember thinking, “what is going on here??!!”, as we spoke.

          I got the impression he felt the same, but I remembered him saying something about a fianceé on the phone. Funny enough, he said they had broken up the night before (I know, I know…) and asked me out.

          He was probably 5’9″ or so, olive complexion, dark hair and eyes. Nothing at all wrong with any of that but that’s not typically my “type”. He wasn’t conventionally handsome either, though. To this day, I have no idea WHY he had that effect on me.

           

        11. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          Wow, you have really given this a lot of thought!   🙂

          Some women are primarily visual (shock horror — some women are as visual as men!). So if you can meet her threshold of attractiveness she should feel chemistry — even if the guy doesn’t do anything else at all. So by simply maximizing his appearance a guy can create instant chemistry with a certain percentage of women (visually motivated women who are at his physical attractiveness level or lower).

          Yes

          I’m a pianist in my spare time so a short performance, circumstances permitting (i.e. if there was a handy piano available) proved very effective in this regard (I know that’s corny, but hey, a guy’s gotta play to his strengths!).

          Very smooth!     🙂

          It’s kinda a whole package thing — you gotta hit as many triggers as quickly and as subtly as possible, all through seemingly entirely normal banter.

          Yes, I see where you are going with this and I’m sure it works well in certain instances but in a quick interaction with someone it may be difficult to access her what her triggers are. For me, I feel the instant attraction either by looking at the man and being around him (he doesn’t have to speak or try to work it; it’s instantaneous) or … in rare instances, he does or says something that gets my attention. For example, I passed a guy at work one day and he rather loudly shouted, “Hey! You don’t even say hello?!” I hadn’t acknowledged him (we’d chatted briefly before) because he was talking to someone and I didn’t want to interrupt. But I thought that was bold and kind of primal and it got my attention. How he would have known to do that I don’t know.

        12. Emily, the original

          KK,

          I felt extreme chemistry for this guy and I could not make sense of it at all. As a matter of fact, I remember thinking, “what is going on here??!!”, as we spoke.

          He was probably 5’9”³ or so, olive complexion, dark hair and eyes. Nothing at all wrong with any of that but that’s not typically my “type”. He wasn’t conventionally handsome either, though. To this day, I have no idea WHY he had that effect on me.

          That’s exactly what I was talking about and have tried to explain before. That kind of attraction has little to do with what the person looks like.

        13. Shaukat

          Hi Tom,

          Your impromptu piano performance is a great story! I’ve always been a bit of an agnostic on the issue of whether infusing dates with that kind of creativity makes much of a difference in the early stages, but maybe it’s worth trying.

          I agree that it’s important to analyze your date and calibrate accordingly, but I’ve always felt that a large component of chemistry is established within the first 15-20 minutes by the factors I mentioned earlier, so not sure how much room there is for that type of analysis and calibration on the first date.

          @KK,

          Just wanted to let you know that I’m pretty much in full agreement with your response to DeeGee regarding his ex. See, we can reach some common ground after all:)

      2. 21.1.2
        Jeremy

         

        I see where you are coming from, Emily, but I still think that this is just a yearning for dopamine.   An inability to recognize that the intense emotion that one feels in the present simply will not continue far into the future.   That dopamine is an excellent reason to get into a short-term relationship but a lousy reason to enter a marriage.

         

        Compare and contrast this with an actual change in rational, long-term priorities: The woman who valued stability and dad-potential in a man in her early 30s (because she wanted to start a family), who later comes to value romanticism and spontaneity once the kids get older.   She wonders what she ever saw in her stodgy, predictable husband.   And because she doesn’t intend to have any more kids, she is unlikely to ever again prioritize his stability and dependability as she once did.   Instead, she finds a man who is romantic and spontaneous, and will continue to value those traits until and unless her priorities change again.   It isn’t about dopamine and it isn’t short-term.   That’s a different situation than the one you describe, IMHO.

        1. Emily, the originala

          Jeremy,

          It isn’t about dopamine and it isn’t short-term.   That’s a different situation than the one you describe, IMHO.

          But wouldn’t she feel at least some of the dopamine high in the beginning if she is a woman looking for romance and spontaneity?   Or are you saying the dopamine high is different than chemistry?

      3. 21.1.3
        Emily, the original

        GoWiththeFlow,

        A big hint that a person is a relationship adrenaline junkie is that they will love bomb you at the very beginning.  

        Or they are really anxious and are trying to create an instant relationship. Someone who comes at me like a freight train turns me off. It always feels like their ardor has much less to do with me than with them. It doesn’t feel genuine.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          If you are attracted to them and they are CONFIDENT and love bomb, it’s a completely different experience that an anxious person who is love bombing in an attempt to convince you to be attracted to them.

        2. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow,

          If you are attracted to them and they are CONFIDENT and love bomb, it’s a completely different experience that an anxious person who is love bombing in an attempt to convince you to be attracted to them.

          I’ve only stuck around for love bombing once. In the very beginning, he didn’t do it but once things got more serious, I was barraged with calls, gifts, cards. He was mounting a campaign to win me over. The relationship lasted six months only because he lived about 8 hours away (I had met him initially when he lived near me) and I saw him only once a month. Had we lived in the same town, I wouldn’t have made it past a couple of dates. I’m not sure his lovebombing derived from confidence or anxiety, but it was, at least to me, not appealing.

      4. 21.1.4
        Jeremy

        Emily, I won’t/can’t answer for Tom, but  the fact that the reaction is chemically-mediated does not mean that it doesn’t depend on an external stimulus.   Adrenaline, for example, is released physiologically due to external stimuli.   Once the stimulus happens, the pathway is activated predictably.   Dopamine is similar.   The pathway is the pathway, but the trigger varies.   Curious as to Tom’s methods, though.

        1. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          I won’t/can’t answer for Tom, but  the fact that the reaction is chemically-mediated does not mean that it doesn’t depend on an external stimulus

          Yes, of course, there are external stimulus but why one person triggers it in you and another doesn’t is impossible to understand. I guess this depends, too, on how define attraction. How do you know if you are attracted to a woman? Do you feel it or do you just know it by sight? When I say that it’s physiologically based, I mean that the person has a physical affect on you — they make you nervous or giddy or you get charged in a way it takes you a while to come down off of the feeling after they leave. Of course, there are levels and degrees of this. That type of feeling I don’t believe you can create.

    2. 21.2
      Chance

      “I think I understand where you are coming from, and we are defining “hypergamy” differently, which is why we are disagreeing on whether it continues after marriage.”

       

      Agree that different views of the same term can make these types of discussions onerous.   SMV has a different meaning among different people, too.   Some view the term as being solely appearance-based, while others view it as relating to the overall attractiveness of a partner.

      1. 21.2.1
        Jeremy

        I agree, Chance, and that’s what is leading to the confusion IMHO.   Each woman will rate a given man’s SMV differently based on the calculus of her priorities at the time.   Unlike men, whose perception of SMV is largely appearance-based, women’s perception of SMV is influenced by whichever other factors she prioritizes as being sexually important to her.

         

        BTW, what did you think of Thinking Fast and Slow?   🙂

  2. 22
    Stacy2

    @Chance:

    “but men and women have a clear tendency to cheat in different ways because men are more likely to cheat in an “in addition to” fashion (i.e., stray), while women are more likely to cheat in an “instead of” fashion (i.e., trade up).   To me, that is about as clear of a manifestation of giving in to polygamous and hypergamous impulses as it can get.”

    I don’t think you really understand how women operate with respect to this whole “trading up” situation. We’ve heard from Evan above on this thread that it is “difficult” (sorry can’t find another word!) for him to stay faithful in a committed relationship, to the point where he actually limits his contacts with other women to remove the temptation. Frankly this was quite shocking for me to hear (I never realized that the drive to fuck everything that moves is so strong in men. I mean as a woman you kinda know this, but still). On the other hand, when I was married, I had zero desire to go and fuck some guy because he’s a CEO of a multi-billion dollar company while my ex is not. None, zero, zilch. And I actually interact with c-level executives in my industry daily, so this isn’t a thought experiment. At no point was I like “oh, this guy is single and runs the 2nd largest company in the sector, i may not contain myself if I go to dinner with him, jeez i better not go if my husband isn’t there” or something. So what I am saying is – no, as women we do NOT have those impulses to cheat or trade up if we’re otherwise satisfied in a relationship. Did I ultimately “trade up”? Hell yeah. Three months after my separation i started dating a vastly more successful individual, but the reason i left my husband was because he sucked, and our marriage was horrible, and I didn’t want to be with him anymore. I wasn’t thinking at the time “geez let me go find myself someone with higher status”. I was thinking “you suck and I am done here”.

    1. 22.1
      Stacy

      @Stacy2

      Exactly! And I don’t personally know any other woman who thinks otherwise – just waiting to trade up, and especially while married – totally ridiculous. And every woman who I know who has gotten a divorce – it was because of some pretty unforgivable and/or totally justifiable shit that occurred. Like you, I have never desired to fuck a more ‘viable’ candidate than my now ex husband simply because he was richer or better looking.

    2. 22.2
      Marika

      Exactly my experience, Stacy2.

      In my experience, women will put up with a lot before they finally pull the plug. This idea that we’re constantly assessing and reassessing our husband’s or partners strengths and weaknesses and comparing with other guys and if they put one foot out of line, or someone better comes along, we’re out the door – sorry, it just doesn’t ring true to me.

      At all.

      I put up with cheating, my ex buying big ticket items without even discussing them with me, gambling, him staying out all night etc etc and on it goes. Commitment, marriage, my vows, stability, love etc. were all far more important to me than ‘is this guy impressive enough for me’ or ‘are there better guys out there?’ (of course there were!). I also didn’t pull away in terms of intimacy, as Jeremy suggests.

      In fact, women who are in love and trying to make things work often feel more of a need to want to connect & be intimate with their partners.

      As I’ve said before, the problem with hypergamy, even if it’s real, is that some groups (and individuals) seem to see it as this overwhelming biological urge that we just can’t overcome, because we’re all either selfish, evil creatures, or slaves to our biology. That’s not the case. At least for  me and every woman I’ve ever  known.

      Women really aren’t that bad. And if it’s your experience that all women are that bad, it might be time to rethink your choice of partners.

  3. 23
    Jeremy

    Several female posters have written arguments against the notion that women are constantly looking to “trade-up.”   I 100% agree with them, and think that only the most myopic people actually believe that this happens in the majority, or that a woman’s “hypergamy” is constantly operating on a low-hum in her mind, ready to trade-up   in case her husband should suddenly stop satisfying her hypergamic desires.   Nonsense.

     

    This is different from a woman needing to respect the man she is with, and losing attraction to him if  she loses respect for him.   This loss of respect does not necessarily drive her to trade-up – far more often it simply results in a decline in her sex drive and her willingness to put up with him, and may result in her seeing him as a burden or a child.   At that point, she will make a decision according to her personality – whether to leave him for another man, to leave him and not seek another man, or to continue putting up with him for the sake of the kids or the sunk-costs factor.   Women are not feral, reptilian-brain-driven creatures – they make rational choices.   But they need to respect their men to maintain attraction to them – and respect them specifically for the qualities that women view as important.   There it is, un-boxed, without the shit-storm of misogyny (thanks for the term, Allan).

    1. 23.1
      Tron Swanson

      With all due respect, Jeremy, that sounds like hypergamy by any other name. You’re basically admitting that women are hypergamous, but saying that the blame lies with men (for not measuring up), as opposed to women. I honestly wonder if women would support this concept if the name were changed and men were the ones that got blamed for it. “Look, you made me cheat on you! If you would’ve been a man, I wouldn’t have to have done that!”

      One of the things that scared me off from PUA/dread game stuff is how men are expected to be “on point” for their entire lives. Basically, if you show too much weakness or lose your edge, women will trade up. Now, that fits with what I’ve seen, but it doesn’t sound like any way to live. That sort of existence just sounds stressful and grueling.

      1. 23.1.1
        Stacy2

        Basically, if you show too much weakness or lose your edge, women will trade up

        Welcome to adulthood. Yes, in real life you’re expected to perform. If you don’t people will discard you. If you don’t perform you’ll get fired from your job, if you don’t pay rent you’ll be evicted and if you don’t act like a good partner your girlfriend will dump you. This is called being an adult, not being a man, and this is not a gender specific issue.

      2. 23.1.2
        Jeremy

        Ultimately, who CARES where the blame lies, Tron?   If a woman ages poorly and her husband loses attraction to her, is it her fault for aging or his fault for being shallow?   Or is it really neither, and just a pair of adults who should try to make the best of what they have?

         

        If a woman loses respect for a man because of his poor behavior, she should communicate her needs with him.   But ultimately, following her directives may not jive with HIS needs.   Whose fault is that?   Does it matter?

         

        The point of what I’ve written thus far is not to lay blame.   It is to improve understanding.   So that if a man notices his wife losing attraction he can get a sense of what he can DO!   And if a woman finds herself losing respect (and hence attraction), she can identify the forces at play and determine whether her expectations are fair and reasonable, and if not then she can utilize some of the self-discipline that GWTF mentioned in her post.   The problem is that without at least the understanding of the forces at play here, people think they are dealing with nebulous factors, they may mis-appropriate blame, and focus on the wrong thing to make it better.   A woman who loses attraction to her husband because he spends no quality time with her will not be impressed by his going to the gym more.

        1. Kenley

          I have been reading all the posts so far and other than what you have said about knowing the reason for wanting to leave might give men and women some insight on how to work through their issues, I don’t really know why hypergamy matters.    I also am not so certain why women are taking offense if it is true.    If we are leaving someone, aren’t we all trying to find someone who does a better job of meeting our needs?   Where is that shame in that?   I guess I’m just not getting what all the fuss is about.

          In regards to your comment about men feeling blindsided by women leaving then, my experience has been that the men haven’t really been blindsided, they just haven’t absorbed how unhappy their women have been.      I have been in 3 long term relationships.   Each time I was unhappy, I told my boyfriends at the time that I was unhappy and I talked to them about what I needed and if they would be willing to give me what I needed.    I did not request anything unreasonable or crazy.    Two of the three guys tried to meet my needs for about a week or two.   The third didn’t try at all.   So, I broke up with them.   And in all three instances, the guys were shocked and stunned that I left.   And, I would respond, how can you be shocked, I told you how unhappy I have been and I told you what I needed.   And, in all three instances, their responses were essentially, “I’m happy so you should be happy.”    They just could not understand that if they were feeling so happy in the relationship,   how was it possible that I wasn’t.

          By the way, when I left all my relationships, there was never another man in the wings.   Indeed, the only way that my first boyfriend would leave me alone was for me to tell him that I found someone else even though I hadn’t.    He just couldn’t accept the idea that I would rather be alone than with him.

        2. Tron Swanson

          Jeremy,

          I care, thanks for asking.

          Stacy2,

          Yeah, life is like that…at work. I’d rather not have to deal with “you’re only good because you’re useful” in my personal life. Sounds like a pretty miserable existence.

  4. 24
    Allan

    Just on the hypergamy issue and the idea that women aren’t ‘en masse’ trading in their men for a better model, and therefore it doesn’t exist – consider this: the commonest theme in divorce is male redundancy. Now I’m sure we can confabulate some scenario wherein a recently redundant man loses his sense of self worth and confidence and pushes his wife away and he’s to blame for everything – but lets be honest; when a man loses his job and his woman leaves him, this is hypergamy distilled and squared; she will take the risk of middle aged singledom over an unemployed man.

    1. 24.1
      DeeGee

      Allan – Agreed.   I  believe the fact that the majority of those  filing for  divorce are women confirms it.   Because the reasons those women use  for divorce  is also when distilled down and cut through the BS  legal terms is hypergamy.

      1. 24.1.1
        GoWiththeFlow

        Oh yeah, total hypergamy when the wife  is the one who files the papers because her soon to be ex is too busy with his mistress, is in jail, too drunk or strung out on drugs, or has simply disappeared and cannot be bothered with such legalities.   There are all kinds of reasons couples divorce.   Who files the papers doesn’t necessarily correlate with who physically or emotionally left the marriage.

        1. Chance

          Hi GWTF,

           

          I strongly disagree with the implications of this comment.   While it may not have been your intent, the comment implies that women initiate divorces the majority of the time because men are just bigger screw-ups, which is far more sexist than anything that the guys have said about hypergamy here IMHO.   While I don’t think this fact is due to hypergamy, I believe there has been a study performed that showed divorce initiation rates are around 50/50 in states where women are not automatically assumed to be granted primary physical custody of the children.   This makes some sense when I think of the common occurrence of men who remain in an unhappy marriage  until their younger child turns 18 because they don’t want to be shut out of their child’s lives to any extent.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Chance,

          The first sentence  was an intentionally ridiculously exaggerated statement in response to DeeGee’s ridiculous exaggeration that since women file a majority of divorces, this proves hypergamy.

        3. DeeGee

          @GoWithTheFlow

          Women initiate divorce approximately 7 out of 10.
          Some of the top reasons why women initiate divorce are: Arguments over money; Unhappiness in the marriage; Perceived lack of equality, etc.   Go ahead and Google it: “top reasons for divorce”.   Here, let me help you with a link:
          https://www.marriage.com/advice/divorce/10-most-common-reasons-for-divorce/
          The so-called reasons that you posted are WAY in the minority of reasons why women initiate divorce.   You are being totally irrational and putting up strawman arguments and  non-typical scenarios.
          Many of the actual reasons for divorce can be inferred as hypergamous.   The women  don’t believe they are getting the deal they should be getting, and it is often related to the man’s resource providing capabilities in the marriage.
          Just Google the word hypergamy and see what the meaning and history of it is, and what I just said lines right up with it.
          Hate the message if you want, but don’t hate the messenger.

    2. 24.2
      Stacy

      @Allan

      Huh? Again, I swear I think these scenarios exist only in men’s heads. Most people aka women  who divorce cite domestic violence or abuse or infidelity. I personally haven’t even run into any women who will just up and leave their husband because he is unemployed. Now if he just never wants to get a job or decides to mooch off of her forever, then that is another story. But I think simply saying that a women would try to trade up for these reasons simply trivializes the real reasons MOST people divorce. Where is this data? In fact, according to statistics, 55% of divorces is because of infidelity and  73% because of lack of commitment. 25% is because of abuse, etc. So who are these women that exists in droves that divorce simply because their husbands got in a tight spot with a job?  And because men are willing to stay in bad marriages (yeah, even when they cheat on a regular, they don’t mind staying  married and being fine with it) proves nothing.

        1. Callie

          Allan – Nowhere in that article does it state that this is commonest theme in divorce, it just says that it does up the chances. One would assume many things up such chances as well, such as infidelity and abuse. Further it doesn’t actually state that this is just the decision of women. In fact the article goes so far as to state: “In addition to upping the chances their wives would leave them, unemployed men themselves  were more likely to initiate divorce – even if they reported being happy in their marriage  – than guys with jobs.”
          So yeah. Definitely no evidence this is the leading cause of divorce, nor that women are the ones driving this particular cause. All that we know is when a man loses a job it is more likely than when a woman loses a job that divorce might  happen. Not that it is the most likely reason for divorce, nor that it is women who make the decision to initiate divorce when it does happen.
           
            

  5. 25
    Jeremy

    Kenley, you wrote, “I’m not sure why hypergamy matters.”   I’ll try to explain, because from a male perspective, it is VERY important.   It is what drives men to the manosphere by the thousands.

     

    Imagine if women everywhere sought out relationship advice from men about what men really want.   And imagine if the prevailing advice from men was this: “if you are in relationship trouble, if he seems unsatisfied, just make him a bowl of Jello.”   That’s it.   Simple, really, make him Jello.   So women try this out – their husband gets stressed, gets upset, loses interest in them, so they make a great big bowl of Jello.   Husband eats the Jello, says thanks, but it definitely doesn’t make him horny.   Or perhaps he agrees to have sex with her to say thanks, but isn’t really into it.   So the woman tells her male advisors – “I tried the Jello idea, but it didn’t work.”   So the advice given is “make him more Jello, but this time put some floating strawberries in it.   That’ll work.”   And eventually, in spite of all the Jello, the guy leaves her.   And all the advisors say, “Well, he obviously wasn’t a normal or quality guy but don’t worry, the next guy you find will appreciate you for your Jello making skills.”

     

    I know this sounds ridiculous and truth be told, I’m being a bit facetious with the Jello idea, but it illustrates a point – a point I really wish more women would understand.   Men around the world have asked women for relationship advice about what women really want, and most of the time the advice women give them is WRONG.   Wrong, even when given by the woman herself about what she herself wants and needs!   Because so many women don’t understand that although they definitely need comfort qualities from a man (to respect her, to listen to her, to value and prioritize her), they also need to RESPECT him as a man.   And many women refuse to admit to themselves and to others what they actually perceive those qualities to be!   And because they won’t admit them, they tell men to focus on comfort qualities, which don’t make them feel aroused.

     

    When the men on this site are telling the women that some Red Pill advice is helpful, this is what they are talking about.   I was shocked that everything I thought I was doing right was actually causing my wife to be LESS attracted to me, not more, because my bending over backward to satisfy her was causing her to lose respect for me.   What she needed was for me to tell her “no” a few times, but she didn’t know that.   She couldn’t acknowledge it.   But it worked.   That’s why it matters.

    1. 25.1
      Callie

      I guess the thing is though . . . that’s not hypergamy. And it’s not unique to women. While men might not find the same things to respect in women that women do in men, they still need to respect their partners as well.

      I think the idea that we all (men and women both) don’t necessarily know what we want really, and sometimes can’t articulate it is very important. But this idea that it’s only women who can’t, and that in essence women are the only ones looking for a partner they respect etc becomes dangerous. As we see here even, so many men assume that women are extra shallow and horrible and honestly some of the most disgusting things evidently and most of such men cite  hypergamy as the reason (this isn’t to say there aren’t women here too who also have horrible and shallow and disgusting opinions about men for their own unique reasons). I think the constant focus on hypergamy is unhelpful and quite honestly untrue. There isn’t actually scientific evidence to back it up.

      So by all means let us discuss this concept of respect, of what that even means, how much of it is influenced by a systemically sexist  society (that does also influence women), how much of it might be genetic, how much of it varies from human to human (I for one give no fucks about how much money a guy is earning, but I do need him to be pursuing something he’s passionate about and being pragmatic about his every day needs as well). But I honestly don’t believe framing this as a conversation about hypergamy is helpful or productive.

      And further, considering how many women have been hurt by men who believe that concept makes women horrible people, and the horrifically nasty stuff that is generally said by the kinds of men who use that term on the internet, even if it turns out to be scientifically supported, I still don’t think, if one is attempting to communicate effectively with women, that one ought to use the word. It is too loaded, and too often used in really nasty contexts. And many women will get defensive about the word itself and not move past it to the larger point you are trying to make. It’s a bit like the words patriarchy and privilege for some men. Those words  might describe something helpful, but ultimately it makes so many men defensive because of how they have  been used by some as an attack, that I find it best, when talking with men, to put those  words aside in order to effectively communicate.

      1. 25.1.1
        Jeremy

        Callie, your points about wording are well-founded.   I hear you on this and I will continue to call out those who twist reality into misogynistic fantasies.

        But your point that, While men might not find the same things to respect in women that women do in men, they still need to respect their partners as well” is where I think the misunderstanding lies.   Men would be WISE to respect their partners, men SHOULD  respect their partners for love to develop and for a relationship to blossom….but men do NOT need to respect their partners in order to be attracted to them.   That IS unique to women.   And whether or not we call it a certain name, it is a fact that men need to be aware of.   Regardless of its etiology (genetic vs environmental), men need to know that women need to respect them to be attracted to them – and to respect them specifically for certain traits that vary from woman to woman, but have some consistent groupings within the population.   This seems obvious to most women but it is not obvious to men.   The “nice guy” who tries to attract women by bending over backwards for her is not necessarily a manipulative asshole,  contrary to current popular thinking.   He is a man who is mistakenly trying to woo a woman using a strategy that he has been taught “should” be effective.   That strategy is wrong.

        1. Callie

          It’s tough because I’ve known guys who’ve broken up with their female partners because they didn’t respect them. So I mean . . . I think my point about there being a different reason as to why men respect women could still stand. It might not be respect for the same things, but if a man is disgusted by his partner (even as he finds her physically attractive) I have seen time and time again  him end the relationship over it.

          Also I should add, the nice guy thing? That’s something of men’s invention. Women say they want nice guys and they mean it. But their definition for nice is very different how the men who call themselves such define it. Women want kind, considerate, respectful. They don’t want a doormat, a man with no opinion, someone who sucks up to them all the time. And the latter is how many men of a certain group have decided to define nice despite the desires of women.

          So I totally agree with you that such dudes need to change up their strategy, but I don’t wholly support the notion that it is women saying they want one thing but actually needing another. I think it’s a communication breakdown between what women mean and what men think women mean.

          (this basically comes down to bad communication ultimately.  And is why the  idea that the problem is women don’t know what they want is flawed for me. Women know what they want, they just don’t realise that men think they mean they want something else. A little more specificity beyond “nice” would be most helpful for them I think 🙂 ).

           

          (as to your “he’s not necessarily a manipulative asshole contrary to current popular thinking” – that’s not the issue with Nice Guys (very different from nice guys). That  issue is with a specific subset of men who aren’t actually very nice, trying to put on the costume of nice to get what they want and then getting angry with women when it doesn’t work. Actual nice guys who are too much of a pushover etc, that’s a whole different group of people. Flawed as well, but not malicious, just misguided. I think it would be wise to separate out those two groups from each other.)

        2. Jeremy

          One note on “respect” – I think you were bang-on, Callie, when you wrote that part of the problem is communication.   When I discuss respect, I am referring specifically to respecting a person for having “boundaries”, for saying no to their partner rather than acquiescing to all of their partner’s requests.   I am not referring to respect for a values-system or life choices or that kind of thing.   I agree that men can and do break up with women they don’t find worthy of some kind of respect (she has disgusting habits, she has incompatible lifestyle goals, etc).   I am talking about respecting boundaries, specifically.   And you are right, that is why the word “nice” is so unclear.   Women believe that niceness involves being kind by acting within boundaries.   Men believe being nice involves not having boundaries.

        3. Stacy2

          .but men do NOT need to respect their partners in order to be attracted to them

          If by attracted you mean – wanting to fuck them, I believe it is true. It appears men in general need very little for that. If she has a pulse they’re good (and for some perverts even that isn’t a total deal breaker). However, look around and see if you can find a single decent man who chose to marry and have a family with a woman he doesn’t respect.

        4. Jeremy

          That isn’t the point, Stacy, of course decent men will respect the women they choose to marry.   The point isn’t that men don’t or shouldn’t respect women, it’s that men  don’t understand that women need to respect THEM.

        5. KK

          Jeremy,

          “The point isn’t that men don’t or shouldn’t respect women, it’s that men  don’t understand that women need to respect THEM”.

          I think you’re getting to the heart of the matter. That’s one area where there seems to be major misunderstandings between the sexes.

          I think if you were to ask women if they thought men KNEW that women need to respect / admire men, most women would give you a resounding “YES”. You’re saying men don’t know this. I know I thought men already knew this. More proof that assumptions cause so much misundertanding.

           

        6. Jeremy

          And not just that they don’t know it, KK, but they don’t know what the respect should be FOR.   I thought my wife would respect me because I gave her what she asked for.   Had no clue that she would respect me more if I didn’t.   Occasionally, and depending on what it was.

        7. Marika

          Jeremy

          Thank you for explaining this so eloquently. Much of it certainly rings true for me. I can never make it work with the unsure, timid guys who can’t make a decision or stand up for themselves. I would caution you to tread lightly in thinking all women operate this way, though, as my sister and a few of my friends are married to guys with no boundaries who never say no to anything. I’ve often wondered why it doesn’t bother them, but it doesn’t at all. Their husbands make less money than them, share childraring or do the bulk of it – have none of this discernable ‘masculinity’ – and their partners are happy.

          Which brings me to your question, Kenley. The reason I find this discussion to be problematic, is that it leads to this idea, as is rampant in MGTOW circles, that ‘all women are like that’. Virgin, prostitute, Buddhist nun, straight women, lesbians, married women, widows, single women, billions of people, we all are driven by this exact same urge and operate the exact same way with men because we have a vagina.

          If you believe that, I have some snake oil to sell you..

        8. Stacy2

          @ Jeremy:

          of course decent men will respect the women they choose to marry

          Eh, no i think there’s a quite significant distinction here, not only will they respect the women they chose to marry, they will chose to marry them because the respect them (and are of course also sexually attracted to them). You have been trying to argue that men have no use for respect for their partners and I think it is far from the truth (for long term relationships of course)

        9. Jeremy

          Stacy, you wrote, You have been trying to argue that men have no use for respect for their partners and I think it is far from the truth (for long term relationships of course)”.   That is most definitely NOT what I have been arguing.   I wrote (clearly, I think) that men’s ATTRACTION to women does not depend on respect.   I also wrote that love is quite another matter, as is a desire to build a family and raise children together. It is the difference between System 1 thinking and System 2 thinking (if you’ve ever read Thinking Fast and Slow) – intuitive attraction versus thoughtful, deliberate relationship-building.   Both of these depend on respect from a female perspective.   Only one does from the male.   

        10. Callie

          Jeremy – ah I see. By your definition of respect then I think we are very much on the same page.

          I honestly don’t have much more to say except that I’ve been heartily agreeing with your further posts to others in this thread 🙂 .

    2. 25.2
      Chance

      Hi Jeremy,

       

      I agree with your comment.   I think that women do understand, on some level of consciousness (if they aren’t already fully aware), that they want a man who is masculine, dominant, and independent.   However, I think that women can’t tell men (especially their partners) that this is what they want because it defeats the purpose.   Women want a man to be truly masculine, dominant, and independent without having to be told or it being explained to him.   If these traits and behaviors have to be explained to a man, then he isn’t the man for them because he is essentially just acting the part.   So, women wait and hope that men just “get it”.   Even our mothers and sisters are in on this.

       

      As it relates to the Kahneman book, it’s in my stack.   I’ve been reading some baseball sabermetrics books that I bought at the same time as of late since it’s the season.   However, I think I’ll pick it up tonight.   My time would be much better spent reading that than spending any more time hanging around these parts.

      1. 25.2.1
        Emily, the original

        Chance,

        Women want a man to be truly masculine, dominant, and independent without having to be told or it being explained to him.

        Agreed. It’s like having to tell someone he is calling too much or coming on too strong. Once you have to do that, the whole thing is kind of dead in the water.

    3. 25.3
      Adam

      Jeremy, this is another really good post. From some of the responses though it still seems like some posters aren’t quite on the same page in the use of the word respect. Allow me to attempt to clarify a little further?:)

      Women need to respect their man in a different way to how men need to respect their partners.

      When Jeremy says men don’t need to respect their partners in the way women do, he doesn’t mean they can actively disrespect their partners and be happy. A poster said women don’t want a man who is a ‘doormat’. Bingo! Most, if not all women would agree that doormat is a pejorative term for a man. Now, here’s the difference: no man would ever call a woman a doormat. No man would ever lose attraction for his wife because she didn’t vociferously or aggressively enough stand up for herself in a domestic squabble. Now, this is not the same as men being actively attracted to a female ‘doormat’, they simply do not negatively judge overly accomodating behavior in the same way.

      Callie said: “And it’s not unique to women. While men might not find the same things to respect in women that women do in men, they still need to respect their partners as well.”

      This concept we are getting at IS unique to women. Men respect their partners in the way we should all respect everybody, ie just treating people nicely and with dignity and not being disrespectful – every woman here would surely agree that she wants to feel a more powerful respect than that for her man. Jeremy’s point about couples therapy really hit home for me as well. The info they are providing is in good faith; I’m sure when they ask women what they want they say ‘a man who listens’, so thats what they tell men to do. But as many of us have found out, it just doesn’t work; the harder we try to do what we’re told women want from us the less they respect us. Its no wonder these confusions arise though – look at the semantic juggling we’ve gotten into over the word ‘respect’ lol.

       

      1. 25.3.1
        Jeremy

        Thank you, Adam, you get it.   I think you clarified it better than I did.   Hopefully people will understand now.

      2. 25.3.2
        Jeremy

        And, as an addendum regarding couples’ counselling…Sometimes a woman who loses attraction to  her husband knows exactly what the problem is (as opposed to other situations I’ve described where she really doesn’t understand herself).   And she may communicate her needs to her husband, only to find that his fulfilling them does not bring back her desire.   This will often lead her to seek out more reasons, create a list of more needs for him to fulfill, and create a cycle of her own dissatisfaction and his confusion.   Neither will realize that the problem is a lack of respect.   If she sees him as trying to fulfill her needs, he will activate her comfort center….but if she sees him as following her instructions and supplicating to her, she will lose respect for him and hence attraction for him (ie. de-activate her arousal center).   And she won’t know why, because after all, here he is doing everything she told him to, and both people may mistakenly believe their relationship is doomed.    But it may not be…he just needs to learn what she wants without being told.   As Chance and Emily wrote, if she has to tell him what to do, he has already lost the respect she needs to have.

  6. 26
    Persephone

    FYI about The Red Pill, since everyone is so keen on discussing it.   In case you did not know.

    It is an actual community–and a very dark one at that. I was a Matrix fan for years, but this philosophy ruined it for me.    It started on Reddit.   It is steered by the Alt Right followers, and it was started to promote the spread of misogyny.   It also seeks to take the values of our Western Society which are marginally used ion modern times and put them on steroids.   (Those values being, in my opinion, 1. Colonialism, or the idea that our culture is better so we have to strong arm everyone else until they become like us, even if by bombs and guns;   2.   Patriarchy, or male dominance;   3.   Might means right;   4.   Rich means more intelligence; Misogyny, or that women are stupid, all think alike, and men cannot reason with them; 5. Western Europeans are superior genetically, and only by accepting this can those without Western European DNA ever advance.)

    Red Pillers can never be real friends with women, and still adhere to Red Pilldom. It is emasculating to them. It is the entire effort to remake Western Society, and kill off non-Western society. It is gross.   One reason I rarely find men from a Western society I want to date.   Since my divorce, I only know One (1) white man I would date.   The rest are indigenous people from other countries.   They re well, well, well worth it.   It opened my eyes to many more truths than the Red Pillers can ever manufacture.   One of those is how manufactured many of the concepts on gender are.

    Even, Please do not be upset with me for saying this, but your dating advice is not universal. It only fits within the concept of the mainstream Westernized American culture.   And you do that quite well. I am a great fan of yours and refer people to you constantly.   Those who can understand other cultures do not need red or blue pills.   The Red Pillers are merely being deceived by their own drug.   The ones who step off the Western Culture merry-go-round are merely enlightened and rise above all that.

    You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember…all Im offering is the truth, nothing more. ~ Morpheus~

    1. 26.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I’m not red pill, nor do I think my dating advice is universal. I’d like to think I’m a good resource for women who want to understand men and find love and while dating practices aren’t always valid across continents, much of the masculine/feminine dynamic IS valid.

  7. 27
    John

    Chance said:

    Women want a man to be truly masculine, dominant, and independent without having to be told or it being explained to him.  

    Exactly. If she has to tell you to be those things, you haven’t become a man and are still a boy or even more accurately you are an “unfinished man.”

    It is the same reason women can’t stand a man who still lives at home beyond a socially acceptable timeframe. It proves he is not a grown man and that he is still dependent on his parents and how he can’t    take care of himself, her and their offspring.

    Our society does not encourage men to grow up. Also older men are not mentoring young men because a lot of older guys are teenagers in adult bodies.

    The old tribal societies initiated their men. We have lost that in our modern civilization. The initiation of young men ultimately broke there bond with their mothers that they carried from infancy that no longer served the boys.

    When the bond with their mother was severed, the boys could become men and really be with their wives as men and not want to go back to mommy.

    There is a lot more to male initiation, but one of the ultimate goals is to break the bond between mother and son so he can become a man and not make his wife his mother.

    If you are interested in a more in depth explanation check out “Iron John” by Robert Bly.

    1. 27.1
      Tron Swanson

      John,

      Personally, I don’t care about society’s definition of genders. Women are no longer limited by their old gender roles, and I don’t see any reason why men shouldn’t join them. Once upon a time, “real women” didn’t work or stand up to men or have children outside of marriage. Women got tired of that and changed it. Now, some women are modern, some are traditional, and most are somewhere in-between. But they’re still women. The truth is, gender is a biological issue, not a cultural one. I’m a man because of that magic Y chromosome. If I don’t fit your personal definition of a man, well, that’s more than fine with me. I spent too much of my life trying to be a traditionally-masculine person, and it made me absolutely miserable, because that’s not who I am at all. Straight, yes, but traditional, no.

      1. 27.1.1
        Stacy2

        Tron, you’re a definition of a cliche of a man-child. You want to get what you want (get laid, have intimacy) but you don’t want to give anything in return. You want to be loved unconditionally even when you act shitty. These are all the hallmarks of a mother-child relationship. Functioning adults understand that they need to “work” for everything, including affection.

        1. Tron Swanson

          Actually, I’m willing to give an equal amount in return…but I’ve found that women require much more, so I don’t bother.

          As for unconditional love…yeah, there’s a gender that expects love despite drama, but it ain’t mine. Forget love, I’d settle for sane, equitable behavior.

  8. 28
    John

    Hi Tron

    Your magical Y chromosome makes you a male, not a man.

    From reading your past posts, I’ve gathered that your really not interested in being a man. You seem interested in only getting laid. That is your prerogative, but it ain’t manly.

     

    1. 28.1
      Tron Swanson

      You’re quite correct, John. I’m interested in being me–I’m not interested in fitting into any society or culture’s definition of my gender. And thank you for calling me “not manly,” as that’s the highest compliment that I can think of.

      1. 28.1.1
        Buck25

        Tron,

        That’s all well and good, if you think that’s “the highest compliment I can think of “(to you).   In that case, I have to wonder why,   both when I made a similar observation and now, when John made the one you responded to, you seem upset, somehow.

        1. Tron Swanson

          I’m just sick of dealing with it, Buck. I simply don’t get along with my own gender, as I’m not like 99% of you, apparently. Granted, I’d rather focus on the gender that I’m sexually attracted to, anyway. If you think I’m low-effort when it comes to women, well, let me tell you that I’ve had one male friendship in my life, and I haven’t seen him in about fifteen years.

  9. 29
    Marika

    Yet Another Guy

    Your comments about male/female education levels & dating may be  a bit outdated, I think.

    Every man I’ve dated since starting my online dating journey a few years ago has had a lower educational level than me. Most of those dating experiences happened because the man contacted me first.

    I have a Master degree. 90% of men who contact me online have lower educational levels than me (which is just a product of the fact that the majority of the population don’t have MAs). Around 70% of the men who contact me  have high school as their highest qualification.  The difference in education levels doesn’t stop them from ‘hitting on me’, as you put it, at all. Similar situation with my friends who are dating online, all of whom are tertiary educated.

    I used to want to date men who had completed  tertiary studies(a diploma or undergrad degree) as I thought we’d have more in common. I never, ever expected them to have a postgraduate degree or higher. I’m not willing to limit my search to the relatively low number of people with higher degrees. So I’ve always taken it as given that I’d probably end up dating someone with a lower education level. Which doesn’t bother me at all.

    Since following Evan I’ve taken it further than that. As Evan has repeatedly said, things like education level aren’t a good predictor of how good a partner someone is going to be. So I’ve opened myself up to considering all levels of education, including high school.

    Perhaps the friends you are referring to got together years ago when things were different. Otherwise, I’m not sure where you get the idea that  men are only contacting women with lower or the same qualifications as them.

    Probably because you can’t know what it’s like to be a woman on a dating site.

    1. 29.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Marika

      I never claimed the reverse pairing did not exist.   I claimed that men generally do not seek women who have greater educational attainment levels.     That is a demonstrable fact.   Does a female graduate (a.k.a. post-graduate) degree holder have to date a mn with a lower educational attainment level from time to time? Absolutely!   A higher percentage of women hold graduate degrees in the United States than men, and men routinely engage in social hypogamy in order to get laid or date up an SMV level or two looks-wise.

      1. 29.1.1
        Marika

        YAG,

        I was replying  to this comment:

        Heck, men who hold an undergraduate degree generally know better than to attempt to hit on a woman who holds a graduate degree

        As a woman who holds a graduate degree, I can absolutely assure you that’s not the case. Men from all education levels routinely ‘hit on’ me on dating sites. And my friends.

        And why shouldn’t they? You don’t need a degree to be a good boyfriend.

  10. 30
    Adrian

    Hi Jeremy,

    I would like for you to explain some of the things you have mentioned on this post so that I may gain a better understanding .

     

    Jeremy said, “Men around the world have asked women for relationship advice about what women really want, and most of the time the advice women give them is WRONG.   Wrong, even when given by the woman herself about what she herself wants and needs!”  (post #25)

    1). In your opinion Jeremy what are some examples of wrong advice men receive from women about dating and attraction?

     

    Jeremy said, ”  And whether or not we call it a certain name, it is a fact that men need to be aware of…men need to know that women need to respect them to be attracted to them(post #25.1.1)

    2). In your opinion Jeremy what are the top things men need to know about creating attraction in women that they don’t know… besides she has to respect him?

    1. 30.1
      Jeremy

      Hi Adrian.   I’ll answer your first question, though please remember that my advice is better suited for relationships/marriages than dating.   I haven’t dated in years, and I don’t miss it.

      The majority of relationship advice for men involves providing what women perceive as comfort qualities.   Listen to her, prioritize her, romance her, communicate with her.   The problem with this advice is that it does not address what the man in question wants.   Does he want to make the woman feel comfortable, or does he want to make her feel aroused (ie. increase passion).   If the former, the advice is good.   If the latter, the advice is not good.   It is as though the women providing this advice ignore the question “how can I make her feel passion?” and replace it with the question “what would I like my BF, to whom I’m already attracted, to do to make me feel super-happy in my relationship with him?”   Very different question!   It’s not that men shouldn’t strive to make their women feel comfortable (forget the manosphere advice to “kill the beta”), but they should evoke certain qualities based on the desired response ratio, if that makes sense to you.

      The other bit of bad advice involves communication.   The advice is that if a relationship is in trouble, you need to ask the woman what she wants and do what she says.   This advice hits near the mark, yet somehow misses it completely.   Best to know your wife/GF very well and give her what she wants without her having to ask.   If she asks for it, it immediately loses half its value (eg. if she asks you to buy her flowers and you do it, how happy with the flowers do you think she’ll be?).   And if you must ask her what she wants (because you just don’t know), listen respectfully, use language and body language to show her that you love her……and only do what she wants if you think it is reasonable.   If you don’t think it is reasonable, refuse her gently, firmly and with an explanation.   And she will desire you more for your refusal than your capitulation.   And she will respect you more now that she knows what you want than she would if she imposed her desire on you.   And she may be pissed off at you temporarily because she didn’t get what she asked for, but she’ll be extra passionate with you later as long as you remained kind while maintaining your boundaries.

      And every woman reading that last part will think “isn’t that obvious?”   And every man reading it will silently reply “no”.

    2. 30.2
      Jeremy

      And as for your second question, Adrian, I’m hardly an expert.   Read what Tom10 wrote above.   But IME, there are 4 qualities that lead to arousal much of the time:

      1) Passion – talk about something you are passionate about and let your passion shine through.   She will take that as a heuristic for how passionate you can be about her

      2) Confidence – pick a restaurant and go there confidently.   And even if the food sucks, don’t snivel or apologize for picking it.   Be secure in the choices you made for the date.   Look in her eyes (but don’t stare creepily).   Smile and don’t be self-conscious.   She will take your confidence as a heuristic for your proficiency at providing her whatever it is she wants – whether excitement, a secure relationship, or being good in bed.   If you are confident she will believe you can give her these things until you prove otherwise.

      3) Humor – be funny, if you can.   Women want to see that you are a happy person, not a miserable person, and that you can make them happy too.   Being funny is also a heuristic for status.

      4) (and this one may be debatable) – leave a little something imperfect in yourself to give her the idea that she can help you become the amazing man she sees you could be with her feminine help.   Leave your shirt partially un-tucked, or one area of your hair slightly messy.   Others may disagree with this, but I’ve found that if a woman thinks you have amazing quality, she often is even more attracted to you if she thinks she can make you even better.

      YMMV, and all of these assume you are fit, well-dressed, and have taken care of your grooming and hygiene needs.

      1. 30.2.1
        Marika

        One to three are spot on for me, Jeremy.

        This may be a cultural thing, but coming from a culture where men love their t-shirts and shorts, I would steer clear of  number 4, and replace it with being emotionally ‘imperfect’/vulnerable.

        Not  as in confessing your previous drug addiction on date 1, but share something that makes you emotionally vulnerable and that will draw on her nurturing side. For instance, I went on a lovely date last night with a man who confessed that his divorce blindsided him and that for a year afterwards he was a mess. May sound like a downer, but it was actually very attractive (to me, anyway). Especially given that it was three years down the track, so it’s not like he was still a mess and trying to date.

        He also shared a funny story about helping his 8 year old daughter do her hair when she stays at his place (and having no idea what to do!). A woman picturing a man trying to braid his daughter’s hair who may just need a little help…awww!!

        Jeremy, oh wise one (you’re becoming the new Karl R), I know you haven’t dated in a while, but what would be the top four things you’d advise women to do on dates (given how spot on you were in reverse)?

        1. Stacy2

          I agree with Marika on the #4. Not all women like a fixer upper.

        2. KK

          Stacy2,

          Agreed. I’d say MOST women don’t want a “fixer upper”. But I think Marika and Jeremy are both on to something which is a little bit different (or more subtle) than that. Marika made an excellent point about vulnerability (vs physicality) and Jeremy’s original comment… “give her the idea that she can help you become the amazing man she sees you could be with her feminine help”… has quite a bit of merit to it, I believe.  

          I think the idea that a man has it all together and has this great fulfilling life when you first meet him is great, in theory. But if he isn’t missing anything, what would make you any more valuable to him than any other woman?

          I’ll give an example from one relationship. When we first met, he certainly seemed like he had it all together, but it wasn’t until he trusted me enough to open up to me about certain aspects of his life that were less than perfect, that my feelings for him deepened.

          In one of those conversations he said he had never felt truly loved and accepted by any woman in his life. Ever. That one conversation changed how I saw him, and therefore, how I related to him. I already respected and admired him, but now I felt COMPELLED to be that woman that would love and accept him totally. I guess you could say that he presented me with a role (consciously or subconsciously) and I had the option to either fulfill that role or not.

  11. 31
    Jeremy

    Marika, I think you’re right.   Emotional imperfection will work better than physical imperfection, which might be more of a turn-off.   But there has to be something she thinks she can improve upon to help the guy reach the potential she sees and earn his gratitude.

     

    Regarding advice for women – I think Evan is the master on this topic and I defer to his general points – be attractive, be present, mirror the man’s actions, be appreciative and responsive.   All these things are good advice for women on DATES with men.   Where I might add upon this is advice for the thinking woman in a RELATIONSHIP with a man.   So here are some points to understand about men (and sorry for the length of the post, hopefully some women will read it):

    1) There is often a disparity between what a man thinks will make him happy versus what will actually make him happy, both in the long and short term.

    2) No matter how often the man experiences this disparity, he will not necessarily learn from it, even when presented with evidence.   The man who believes that what he needs right now, when upset, is to withdraw will not learn from past experience that withdrawing will not make him happier.   He can not easily override what his brain tells him to do, and his brain tells him that, when stressed, he should either withdraw or seek simple, cave-man pleasure (eat, drink, sex) – even though those things are not what he needs.

    3) Men need to be admired by the women they are with in order to feel emotionally happy in the relationship.   A woman may mis-interpret this to think that he needs to be “better” than her, but not so.   It is not about power or one-upsmanship.   He needs to feel that in some way he is her hero or else he can’t feel the validation he needs.   And if he can’t feel that validation, he will seek it elsewhere – either by finding another woman or immersing himself in some other activity for which he gets validation (like workoholism).

    4) The best way for a thinking woman to help a man be happy is to link behaviour that she knows will make him happy with behaviour that she knows he will enjoy or intuitively see value in.   Once the man is actually happy, he is far more likely to put in the effort it will take to make HER happy.

     

    I know this all sounds very abstract and theoretical, but it is truth.   Men seek sex and find love, and it is the love that makes them happy, not the sex.   They don’t necessarily seek love, even though research shows it will make them happier.   The best way for men to be brought to love is by linking love with the sex they seek – ie. relationships – these link the long-term goal with the short-term reward.   This is why the worst thing a woman can do when her relationship is in trouble is to withdraw sexually (from the man’s perspective).   I won’t go on and on about how to apply the above principles – they are highly applicable, though, and I’m sure a thinking woman can perceive their application.

    1. 31.1
      Emily, the original

      Hi Jeremy,

      Men need to be admired by the women they are with in order to feel emotionally happy in the relationship.   A woman may misinterpret this to think that he needs to be “better” than her, but not so.

      To me, “respect” and “admire” sound very similar. I don’t know that I need to think a man is better than me to respect him, just that he has a backbone. I would also admire someone who was his own person.

      1. 31.1.1
        Jeremy

        You are describing respect as you see it (and as most women do).   This is not the same as how men see it.   This post was intended to describe to women how most men see the concept – they want to be admired for their masculine qualities (whatever THEY perceive those to be), and in order to be admired for a quality, they must possess it in greater quantity than the woman.   That is the difference between respect and admiration: You can respect an equal, but you can’t admire an equal.   She can be superior in feminine qualities and n0n-sexual qualities – superior at almost everything in fact, but not at those specific qualities he perceives as masculine.   If she is, he won’t feel like he is contributing to the relationship as a man.   I’m not judging the moral rightness of this, just describing it.   And the qualities percieved as masculine vary from man to man.

        1. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Ok. I don’t want to go back and forth over it. It all sounds very similar to me.

          But I do have one question: What about those relationships in which the woman is clearly the dominant, more masculine (for lack of a better word) partner? She’s the one in charge. Maybe she makes more money and makes all the decisions. Does the man feel like he is contributing as a man in those situations?

        2. Jeremy

          Emily, in almost every situation I know of where an alpha woman is married to a beta man, two criteria must be fulfilled or else the relationship falls apart (IME).

          1) The man invests his masculinity in traits that the woman does not have.   She may earn more, she may be more educated, but he can fix a leaky sink.   He invests his sexuality in qualities other than the ones she is dominant in.   If he can’t be admired by his wife for the quality in which he invests his sexuality, he will seek validation elsewhere.

          2) The woman is able to respect the man and perceive him as better than her at something she deems important.   She may make more money, she may be more educated, but he is more street smart, or more creative, or more idealistic.   If she can’t respect him and perceive him as better in some way (even while perceiving herself as better in other ways) then she will lose attraction to him.

           

          I do know of relationships where the above criteria do not hold.   They are not happy.

        3. Emily, the original

          Hi Jeremy,,

          The woman is able to respect the man and perceive him as better than her at something she deems important.   She may make more money, she may be more educated, but he is more street smart, or more creative, or more idealistic.

          The street smart or creative would make sense to me. Fixing the leaky sink? While certainly a good skill to have, one I don’t possess, and one I would appreciate it, admire might be a stretch.

      2. 31.1.2
        Marika

        Emily,

        I don’t know about you, but I don’t need my man to admire me, as such. Respect me for who I am, absolutely, for what I do, preferably; but admire, no. It’s my experience, though, that men really need it. As in they need a lot of “wow, that was great you did that!”, ” you’re an amazing banker/father /husband /son” etc.

        Presumably because they don’t get it elsewhere from friends and family.

        For the odd big achievement that kind of language is fine for women, but if you heard it everyday, you’d wonder if they were up to something! I experimented with this once and said things like that to my ex almost daily. To me it felt a bit strange, but worth a try. He LOVED it! He was an extreme case, but if I could’ve kept it up every day, we’d probably still be together!

        1. Marika

          Just replying to my own comment, haha, as I had a thought. Men, do you thrive on admiration as you grew up being mainly praised for achievement? So you’ve learned to associate praise with love?

        2. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          I’m not trying to be sarcastic but specifically what types of things did you say every day?

          Admire is a strong word. For example, my cousin’s boyfriend (a single dad) had planned a vacation with his son before he met her. Once a year, he and his son had a one-on-one guys’ vacation. She wanted to go and I admired him that he didn’t give in because acquiescing would be easier for him in terms of dealing with her. He told her there would be other vacations the three of them could go on, but this one was a tradition and it was important that he spend time alone with his son. I thought that showed strength and a caring for his son. Is that the kind of stuff you are talking about?

           

        3. Jeremy

          Different men vary in their need for validation.   We all need some, but most of us are secure enough not to need it all the time.   Once in a while, though, it is nice.

           

          Women want their men to tell them they love them.   Men want their women to tell them that they’re awesome.   Very different connotations!

        4. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Men want their women to tell them that they’re awesome.

          But specifically what do you want to hear? “You’re awesome!” seems generic. What types of things do you want to be acknowledged for?

        5. Jeremy

          Emily, in general, men want to be admired for the qualities in which they invest their sexuality.   And hopefully, after spending much time together in a relationship, a thoughtful woman can intuit what those qualities are.

           

          For me, I (unfortunately) invest much of my masculinity in providership, and so hearing from my wife how she appreciates my hard work or something that I provided is validating.   I also invest some of my masculinity in my physical body, so hearing that I am attractive is validating.   For the man who invests his masculinity in his ability to fix the leaky sink, though, (like my brother in law, who is married to my higher-earning and more-educated sister, but is proud of his ability to lay a hardwood floor or fix a broken fixture), he wants to hear that he is amazing for how nicely he fixed that sink.   Probably also wants to hear that his body is sexy.   Target the validation at the man’s perception of his sexuality, if that makes sense.

      3. 31.1.3
        Adam

        Emily,

        Thanks for your input. May I ask if you could say a little more about backbone? Perhaps give an example of a man showing/not showing backbone?

        Cheers

        1. Emily, the original

          Hi Adam,

          Having backbone: What I described in 31.1.2 in response to Marika’s comment. This man risked cutting off his access to nookie (!) and starting an argument with my cousin because he valued the relationship with his son.

          Not having backbone: Having a friend ask out a girl for you.

  12. 32
    Marika

    Emily

    Admire is a strong word, and I think this is the point, we as women have a hard time getting our head around why it’s so important to a man. But it is.

    I would say things like “wow, it sounds like you really gave an amazing presentation at work today. You’re such an awesome public speaker!”. Or “the way you helped out your kids today was really fantastic. You’re a great Dad!”.

    Maybe think of it as validation. Validation that you admire him & the things he does.

    1. 32.1
      Emily, the original

      Markia,

      I would say things like “wow, it sounds like you really gave an amazing presentation at work today. You’re such an awesome public speaker!”. Or “the way you helped out your kids today was really fantastic. You’re a great Dad!”.

      Agreed. That sounds like validation. In terms of admiration, that depends on what you value.

      1. 32.1.1
        Marika

        Not sure if you’re over thinking this, or I’m not explaining myself properly..;)

        Basically it’s about showing admiration for things he does and says. You can respect a person’s values etc without actually admiring them (or voicing it), so this is a little different. It’s expressing your admiration, for how strong, successful, brave, kind or whatever he was for some specific thing he did or said. I think it’s really amazing when you..x. It’s so impressive to see you..y. Not “I respect your values”.

        You can occasionally see it in play when you voice your admiration for another man’s actions, in front of him. If it touches a nerve you’ll see this bristling, like he’s thinking, I can do better than that! I’ve seen that, anyway:)

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          Not “I respect your values”.

          No, I get you. I wasn’t clear. The qualities a person admires are the qualities they value. For example, I value being able to write well. I read stuff online and think, “Damn, that’s some good writing!”

      2. 32.1.2
        Henriette

        Interesting.   I’m a bit surprised by this, simply bc frequently telling a guy ways in which one admires him sounds as though it might fall under the “words of affirmation” Love Language category which most men don’t rank highly.   (Men tend to prefer Physical Touch and Acts of Service).

        1. Jeremy

          Hi Henrietta.   I think that we all have 1-2 primary love languages, but that we are all somewhat multi-lingual.   I agree with you that, for most men, if words of affirmation are all you give him, he won’t be happy.   But if you are communicating with him primarily in his love language most of the time, he may still want some validation/clarification as to your motivation.

           

          For example, remember the situation I presented on another thread, where a man claims he wants to be left alone?   I suggested leaving him alone for 20 minutes, then give him a BJ, then tell him that he is awesome, then leave for another 20 minutes.   In that situation, if she skipped the BJ and just told him that he’s awesome, it would be far less effective IMHO.   But the words along with the action make the action more effective.   And those specific words will be far more effective in that situation than the words “I love you.”

  13. 33
    D_M

    Henriette,

    In an effort to provide another random blogosphere data point, acts of service and physical touch are where I reside. Just telling me how great I am wouldn’t do it for me. I believe that we all invest time and effort into the things that we truly care about. I don’t disagree with Jeremy’s point about coupling the words with actions, but a home cooked meal is my fix all. Once I have dinner, everything else falls into place. Jeremy’s bad work day remedy wouldn’t work for me. I would just end up being a hungry unenthusiastic participant.

  14. 34
    FG

    Now that we’ve established a tone for scientific rigor, back to feminism and science…

    Blank slate (gender)
    Read Brizendine’s Female Brain.
    Then read Cordelia Fine’s Delusions of Gender and Testosterone Rex to sink into the mayhem of politicized discourse. I call the first Fine Delusions.
    Will not engage the criticisms Brezendine faced. Some criticism IS true, most of it is hogwash. In my view, Brizendine is trained and educated in hard science (at some of the best institutions), while Fine is educated in soft science.
    Enter David Page (MIT) who specialized in mapping the Y chromosome.
    So quoting myself (for fun) on Brizendine…
    Her book might be summed up (unfairly and cursorily) as (quotation from this author’s grasp) “hormones determine and define the gender differences in development and behavior”. Adding some of Page’s discernment to the previous, we might finally say “gender genetics, XX for women and XY for men, determine the hormonal types and levels that decide early development and later behavior”.

    As I’ve done a little debunking work   on these topics, I hope you will appreciate my contribution.

    Quoting myself again (not narcissistic: I just think the quote is valid)
    “On a quest to establish FACT, putting aside bias, data culling and other tools of partial or total subjectivity, remaining IMpartial means we will seriously consider the facts when they are solid and ACCEPT them if undeniable or incontrovertible, also known as facts are facts. Refusing to do so is at best quackery and at worst sheer stupidity. Belief or feelings play no role in the matter.”

  15. 35
    Sylvana

    I think natural testosterone levels play a huge role in how masculine or feminine we act. While society certainly can influence the way we feel about how we naturally respond or feel, it cannot change a person’s natural inclinations, only cause a person to hide them.

    I’m a high testosterone women myself, so I cannot relate to woman at all, unless they pretty much act like men themselves. I do not understand how woman think or feel, or even talk, for that matter, for I’m however being told I sound just like a man when I talk (not bossy, simply by the way I think).

    People around me have always told me I should be more feminine, but -after so many years of trying- I’ve given up. It’ as effective as telling a high-t man to be more feminine.

    And no – as much as those women would probably like to reason it away – there is no traumatic event in my past, and absolutely no other reason why I would be afraid of my femininity or trying to hide it. It just isn’t there. And I certainly wasn’t raised to be more masculine. My parents actually allowed us to be whoever we wanted to be (another fact that disproves those women’s theories, since I wasn’t pushed to be a woman either).

    The only sad part is that I ended up straight.

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