My Boyfriend Expressed Doubts When Asking Me to Be His Girlfriend. Should I Worry?

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I came across your blog when I first started online dating a few years ago in New York and your advice has helped me navigate the modern dating scene. I’ve always valued your advice because it is no nonsense, practical and mirroring worked for me like a charm.

I’m currently in a new relationship. Like you advised, I politely declined to sleep with my partner until we were exclusive. He was the first to bring up the ‘what do you want with dating’ talk, and I answered honestly that I was looking for a committed exclusive relationship. He followed up by pursuing me hard, committing to me and taking down his profile in quick succession and introducing me to his friends as his girlfriend.

He recently admitted that he did have doubts if he wanted a relationship or was ready even as he asked me, but went with it as he liked me a lot and it was what I wanted. He also affirmed that with time, he knows he made the right decision to commit to me.

I share a similar dating philosophy with your wife. I believe in mulligans and I am grateful that my partner and I are able to talk about us – what a joy to find a man who wants to talk about the relationship! – and I have no desire to punish him for his honesty in any way or to use it to guilt him. His recent affirmation to the commitment also made me reassured. In fact, he has ticked all the boxes that you mentioned in what a man should do for his girlfriend. He is by no means an alpha Marlboro guy and my younger self would have found flaws in him, but my older self agrees with your philosophy in being with the man who treats you well and wants to be with you.

However, I have some niggling fears over his admission that he wasn’t ready when he asked me to be his girlfriend, and that he had doubts even after he had asked me during the early days. I would love to hear your opinion on whether this is a red flag. From my perspective, I appreciate his desire to be honest with me and have no wish to punish him for it. But you have more experience and insight, and I’m sure myself and other female readers would benefit from your thoughts on this.

Margaret

Think about the relationships where you had no doubts whatsoever.

You “just knew” he was your “soulmate” and you’d be together forever.

What happened to ALL those relationships?

You got it! They fell apart. So much for “just knowing.”

I don’t know how long you’ve been with your boyfriend, Margaret.

But if he’s treating you well and is talking about a future with you, it doesn’t matter at all if he had doubts at the beginning.

Doubts are just signs that you’re seeing things clearly and can tell your partner’s flaws.

While it’s no fun to have doubts, they’re necessary before taking the plunge into marriage, lest you end up like the couples who “just knew” but were mistaken.

Doubts are just signs that you’re seeing things clearly and can tell your partner’s flaws.

I famously had doubts about proposing to my wife.

I told my friends.
I told my therapist.
I told Dr. Pat Allen — who told me to dump my wife or I’d end up cheating on her. I even told my girlfriend directly — two weeks before I proposed — that I wasn’t sure what I was going to do, but I knew I had to do it soon because she was 38.

Should she have been scared? Well, yes and no.

Yes, I was admitting that it was in the realm of possibility that we might not get married.

No, there was nothing to be afraid of because my decision was out of her hands.

Many women would have freaked out, dumped me, or tried to extract an ultimatum.

My future wife didn’t.

She knew I was a serious, relationship-oriented man who desired marriage and kids.

She knew I never lied.

And after having a first husband who cheated on her, it was refreshing to be with an honest guy who articulated all of his thoughts and emotions, however painful they might be.

If you’re NOT afraid of making a mistake, you’re not thinking very clearly.

Thus, she put her faith in me that I would come to a conclusion in my own time — despite my admitted reservations about spending the rest of my life with one person.

(Again, if you’re NOT afraid of making a mistake, you’re not thinking very clearly.)

I’m sure it was hard for my wife when I was deciding whether to step up or step out.

But she’s a smart woman with unparalleled people skills and a deep understanding of men.

She knew that if she wanted me to propose, getting nervous wouldn’t help, talking about “us” wouldn’t help, and grilling me wouldn’t help.

She just had to continue to do what she had done for sixteen months before that — be the best girlfriend I’d ever had, accept me as I was, and become indispensable to my happiness.

That’s why she’s my wife instead of Date #301.

So, my friend, allow your man to tell you the truth without punishing him for it. He’ll feel safe that he can be himself with you. You’ll be the only woman who ever let him be honest without flipping out on him. And that’s why he’ll stay with you above all others.

Good luck.

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Comments:

  1. 21
    Marika

    KK & Jeremy,

    “The only thing that differentiates one woman from the next sexually is the price that a man has to pay to gain access to her vajayjay”

    This, KK, is the kind of thinking I’m talking about: it’s all about a man making your past all about him. Good timing!

    Jeremy: you can’t honestly expect women to want to validate a man who cares about your sexual past because he sees you as a walking ‘vajayjay’. I  know you’re not like that, but this is one of the reasons why questions about a woman’s past can feel so violating.

    1. 21.1
      Jeremy

      Hi Marika.   No, I wouldn’t.   I totally disagree with YAG’s comment above about how men view sex as just sex.   The reason that I hold the views I hold is because I view sex as love.   I realize that’s not how everyone views it, but I do.   And I need a partner who sees it the same way.

       

      If you check the comments above, I never once suggested a man should be a detective about a woman’s past – that was YAG.   I wrote that *discovering* that a woman had sex with a man sooner than with him, or more enthusiastically with him, can erode a man’s confidence, especially when he married that woman.   For such a woman, she either loved another man more, or does not see sex as love, but rather one of the many reasons given above for one-night-stands.   And that’s fine, but it’s not for me.   I know what a 10 in chemistry looks like, and I also know what a 10 in compatibility looks like to me.   It has nothing to do with why a woman would reject a man who was less than 6′ tall, and everything to do with why she would reject a man with dis-similar values.

      1. 21.1.1
        Jeremy

        Sorry, last post got edited in a weird way and an important sentence got deleted.   Before the “For such a woman….” sentence, this should have appeared: I have no interest in “sexual purity” but rather a woman with similar sexual values to my own.   Someone with a very promiscuous past is unlikely to hold similar views. For such a woman…

         

        1. Malika

          We change throughout our lives and our feelings on what constitutes good sex can change with it. What if you were single and met a woman who had been promiscuous in the past but in the present only wants sex with a man she can be emotionally intimate with? Would that be a deal breaker for you?

      2. 21.1.2
        Marika

        You and I have the same views on sex, Jeremy.

        This is the part that baffles me though: if you’re happily married to a woman for 5,10 years and then discover she once had a ONS, would you divorce her? Suddenly feel that your values were so entirely dissimilar there was no hope for your relationship?

        I find that very hard to understand. Most of my partners have had quite different backgrounds to me sexually. I judge people on how they treat me in the present, not on what they’ve done in the past. Because I don’t like the idea of being judged by someone I love. I would want them to trust me and trust that whatever I’ve done prior to knowing them was right for me at that time.

        If you do discover/query things about a woman in the future, just please remember that most women have dealt with at least a few YAGs in the past, know their views on women, and therefore don’t typically respond well to your enquiries about our past.

        Maybe your approach is better than mine, as you’re married and I’m not, but regardless I still personally think judging a person on their present actions towards me is the best way to go, or at least the only way I feel comfortable proceeding.

  2. 22
    Selena

    Hi KK.

    I want whoever I’m with to accept me totally. I don’t ever want to feel like someone loves me but wouldn’t IF he knew x,y,z.

    I once had a partner who was in many ways a great guy. Open minded, we could talk for hours and hours about anything and everything. Because I trusted him, I told him about an experience I had that I was sensitive about. Something I would be embarrassed if other people knew. My partner was unfazed by it and after my disclosure we didn’t talk about it. He didn’t love me less for it.

    Unfortunately this otherwise great guy had a drinking problem.   There were a few times   while drunk he  threw what I told him at me along with a long tirade of verbal abuse. After I broke up with him, I found out he had told his friends what I had told him.   We lived in a small community where I ran into these people often.

    The lesson I learned is that some things DO NOT need to be shared. Because you can’t predict what a loving partner will do with that info if there comes a time they aren’t feeling so loving toward you.

     

  3. 23
    Jeremy

    Marika and Malika, you are both asking good questions IMHO.   I’ll offer my opinion, for what it’s worth.

     

    On another thread, we talked about sexual meta-goals and how the reason why we have sex is important.   But an important question to consider is whether or not a person’s meta-goals change over time in a stable way.   Does the woman who needed validation for sex in her 20s suddenly change her sexual meta-goal to be “relationship and children” in her 30s, and if so, is that change stable?   Does the man who always needed novelty suddenly become a family man?

     

    I can’t answer that question definitively.   I can only describe my observations, which might differ from yours.   But my observations are that meta-goals do not change in a stable way for most of us.   They may fluctuate (and the biological clock is the biggest cause of a decade’s worth of fluctuation), but ultimately the person who needs validation will continue to crave validation, the person who needs novelty will continue to crave novelty, etc.   We can modulate our desires, but never eliminate them – and so if we need validation, we should try to channel that need to our benefit rather than trying to need something else entirely.

     

    There are many reasons why a person would have a one-night-stand.   None of those reasons lend themselves to reasons a person should marry.   And so the question becomes, what does the individual need to satisfy his/her meta-goals?   Is the goal validation, or a relationship?   Is the goal of marriage the true goal or a delusion?   Too many people, men and women, have discovered to their chagrin that their partner’s stated goals of marriage were not stable over time.   The original meta-goals are the best predictors IME.   And so it behooves a person looking for a marriage partner to find someone who always wanted a person like them, not one who always dated another type and has had a relationship epiphany.

     

    Why is this relevant?   Marika, you asked me what I would do if I discovered, after more than a decade of marriage, that my wife had a ONS many years ago.   I know my wife.   I know her personality and her meta-goals – it was CRUCIAL for me to understand those before I married her (and likewise for her to understand mine).   Knowing that, if she had a ONS she would feel very much ashamed of it, and I would never shame her or divorce her.   But if I discovered that my understanding of her personality and meta-goals was wrong, that what she desires sexually is actually significantly different from who I am, and that she is settling to be with me for other reasons, I would have to do some serious thinking.   Because compatibility is critical.

     

    1. 23.1
      Jeremy

      As an addendum, when I write about mis-trusing epiphanies, I am referring specifically to “chemistry” epiphanies, not “compatibility” epiphanies.   A person can discover, over time, what qualities in a partner are important for compatibility and so choose a different type of partner.   But generally, we don’t modulate the qualities that inspire chemistry in ourselves.   IME.

  4. 24
    Margaret

    Hi all,

    Letter writer here – I’m a big fan of EMK’s blog, so feeling a little thrilled  to see my letter answered. Thanks Evan.

    I want to reiterate that a lot of the advice here helped me greatly with my dating life, and that’s not an overstatement. Didn’t read through all the comments, but I would like  to address some speculation from earlier comments. Maybe it’ll be helpful from an educational perspective.

    I’ve been dating my partner for 6 months now. This letter was sent a while ago when we were around the 3 month mark. To be honest I wasn’t too bothered because he was reaffirming his choice for me in that conversation and I’ve always valued my boyfriend’s honesty. I just wanted to hear it from Evan if it should be a red flag and I was being too nice. Glad to hear that I made the right decision.

    About why he had doubts – yes, he was afraid of getting hurt and dumped. But he also mentioned that for any guy getting into a relationship, you’re giving up all your other options and that is a big deal. He was nervous about that, but with time has come to realise he made the right choice. If he had said some buttery statement about how he knew I was the one and how no other woman catches his eye, I would’ve bailed. In my limited experience, I’ve only heard that from tinder guys who want to hook up and move on.

    I’m starting to think that the more honest a guy is with you, the more he cares about you. He’s got everything to lose by telling a girl he loves that he’s afraid, but he  cares and doesn’t want to hurt you. Or he could take the easy way out by lying (which has happened to me). Or if he’s honest and just doesn’t want to be with you, then cut your losses and get out.

    It’s reciprocal. My boyfriend lets me share openly about my fears and past, and has never punished me for it.

    Some of this I learnt from experience. Some of it is trusting EMK’s advice, doing it and seeing it work. I sound like a fangirl but hey if it works.

    1. 24.1
      Marika

      Thanks so much for coming back to update us, Margaret! So happy things are working out ☺

      Your relationship sounds ideal to me. In the happiest relationships I know the two can be (within reason) honest with each other and it’s no threat to the relationship as they love and trust each other.

      Having to prop up another person’s ego by avoiding a range of topics or pretending the person is the hottest person or best lover on earth or that it was love at first sight, or whatever, would be exhausting IMHO.

  5. 25
    Marika

    YAG said:

    For the women who have brought up leaving the past in the past. Well, past behavior is the greatest indicator of future behavior.

    That doesn’t apply to you, unless you’ve been lying about yourself. You were the non-commital, sex crazed guy, then apparently the faithful, loving husband who managed to do without sex for x years, now you’re the I don’t need women guy.

    Funny how everything always different when it’s you.

    1. 25.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Marika

      There is no guarantee that I will not resort to past behavior.     Deep down inside, I am still the same man.   The overriding control is not my conscious, but the obligation that I have to my daughters.   That obligation held me in my marriage, and it controls how I date post-marriage.   Without the obligation to set an example for my daughters (and the fear of contracting a viral STD), I would resort to being the same guy that I was before my marriage, just more deadly due to having to deal with a woman who is significantly more of a challenge intellectually and emotionally than most women.

       

      1. 25.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        *my conscience, not my conscious.

  6. 26
    Marika

    Jeremy

    Can I be honest with you? I’m struggling because not only am I really disagreeing with you for I think for the first time ever, for the first time ever *I’m* also finding you unfair to & judgmental towards women. But I know essentially you aren’t!

    When YAG started on this bimodal thing & judging someone on their past, I thought “where is Jeremy to give his calm, reasonable and balanced male opinion?” Then you agreed with him!

    To borrow a quote from Evan, on another post, this is how I see it (genders reversed):
    “If you tell a man that you will never accept his truth: that he’s attracted to other women, that he’s going to have lunch with an ex-girlfriend, that he keeps photos from his past in an album stored in his closet, that sometimes he feels trapped in the relationship… guess what? You are all but begging that man to LIE to you.
    If you accept his unsightly truths, you can have a man who is comfortable being himself around you.
    A man who is forced to tell lies by a girlfriend who doesn’t accept him will eventually leave to find a less oppressive environment.
      I had the same exact thing happen to me in 2007. First date with a really cool woman in LA, followed by a weekend hookup in San Francisco with someone I’d met prior. But after I came home, I focused my energies on the really cool woman in LA. Three weeks later, we were exclusive. A year and a half later we were engaged.
    I don’t know at what point my wife found out about the San Francisco woman, but, at that point, it was water under the bridge.  

    1. 26.1
      Theodora

      Yawn. Another meltdown because men had the audacity to disagree with you.

      You said that we all act in self-interest in dating, men and  women alike. It’s pretty simple, actually: it is against men’s self-interests to invest more in a woman – emotionally, financially, romantically – than her previous sexual partners. It has nothing to do with insecurities and everything to do with personal dignity and that part of human nature which tellls us to avoid being suckers and schmucks. Or as another commenter succintly put it, we don’t want to pay full price for what is on sale.

      Men are advised on this blog to initiate, plan and pay for dates, to do the whole courtship dance in order to qualify as boyfriends for the CEOs who interview them (funny, nobody complains how this is so 1950s and a double standard). The point is, for the sake of consistency and principles, you can’t be a CEO during the day and live on social benefits by night (or “we want different things in different stages of our lives, thers are lots of reasons for that”). Or we can, but people will notice and will refuse to be schmucks. That’s what YAG and Jeremy are doing, actually, from different perspectives – one of a sexually liberal and tolerant man, the other of a sexually restricted conservative man -they don’t accept to pay full price for what’s (or used to be) on sale.

      Sure, women are more than vehicles for sex, they are human beings with personality. But if your personality is so shining and impressive, then what’s the point of “no sex before exclusivity” to get commitment? Normally it wouldn’t matter if you have sex on the first or 10th date, before or after exclusivity, because a relationship is just an exchange of pleasant personalities.

      What you are actually doing is trying to shame men into being good beta bucks without questioning their losses and benefits and forgetting their own interests and dignity, because doing otherwise would mean to commit the crime of “judging women”. And then you have a nervous breakdown when shaming does not work.

      1. 26.1.1
        Alex

        @Theodora

        I disagree with you on a few points.

        First, I think the whole point (as Evan says and frequently writes about) of “no sex before exclusivity” is to figure out if this man is a good fit for you as a boyfriend. That means 1) you have to know if you really like him and 2) you have to know if he really likes you. Both of those take time to figure out and they usually coincide with a couple becoming exclusive. And if you get super emotionally attached after sex, then having sex too early could make figuring out number 2 really hard.

        I don’t think women are trying to “shame” men for wanting sex, especially since it’s such a common problem among women to sleep with noncommittal men really early.

        Second, you said “it is against men’s self-interests to invest more in a woman — emotionally, financially, romantically — than her previous sexual partners”   but I disagree here too. It is in a man’s self-interest if it’s a woman he could fall in love and have a happy life with. I assume there are many men who want these things even more than they want sex right after a first date.

        Also, I don’t think Marika is having a meltdown. She just responded to another comment.

        1. Benjamin

          Alex

          The whole point   of “no sex before exclusivity” is to figure out if this man is a good fit for you as a boyfriend. That means:

          1) you have to know if you really like him and
          2) you have to know if he really likes you. Both of those take time to figure out and they usually coincide with a couple becoming exclusive. And if you get super emotionally attached after sex, then having sex too early could make figuring out number 2 really hard.

          I dont think any man has a problem with these reasons for “no sex before exclusivity”. They are completely understandable, despite not being in men’s own interests.

          The problem is that they are applied so inconsistently by women, based on how hot and objectively desirable the man is. And believe me this is not about women who had some no strings fun in the distant past and are now in a completely different state of mind. Its about women who are looking for a relationship and are applying different rules to different men they are currently dating.

          It crudely comes down to this

          If the guy is really hot/desirable: Have sex with him first and see where things go. If it leads to a relationship. Great. If it doesn’t, no problem. Atleast you spend time and had sex with really attractive man.

          If the guy is average-alright looking: Date him for 3 months; see if he is really willing to invest in a relationship, see if he is really the type of guy you want; and only then have sex.

          Why is it so hard to understand that many men who belong to the latter category might  not be comfortable  this?

        2. Alex

          @Benjamin

          If you keep dating women who are actively seeking out and sleeping with better looking men while stringing you along, then I’m really really sorry. No one deserves that and you have a right to know whether you’re being given a fair shot upfront. I don’t do this, and to the best of my knowledge, my friends don’t either, but I can’t speak to the rest of the female population.

          That said, I don’t know that dichotomy you described is necessarily how women are thinking.

          If the guy is really hot/desirable: Have sex with him first and see where things go. If it leads to a relationship. Great. If it doesn’t, no problem. At least you spend time and had sex with really attractive man.” –  

          Yes, there are women that do this regularly, but I would say most of them are either very young or very insecure. Most women who’ve gone through this come out with serious disappointment and may need quite a while to recover, so they’re not looking to do it repeatedly. Believe me, most women are insecure about their looks, so their first instinct when a really hot guy comes onto them is typically one of suspicion or desperation, not “oh, yippee for me, let’s have some fun!” Additionally, if you’re seriously courting someone who can be lured away in one night by a pretty face, she probably wasn’t that into you to begin with. Sorry to say.

          “If the guy is average-alright looking: Date him for 3 months; see if he is really willing to invest in a relationship, see if he is really the type of guy you want; and only then have sex.” –

          Holy moley! 3 whole months and she still isn’t sure! I definitely give most guys a second date, mostly in the name of giving it a fair shot. But if by date 3 I’m not feeling it, I’m out of there. It only   gets more uncomfortable when a guy is clearly getting more and more into me when I’m becoming more and more ambivalent about him. Sure, maybe 3 dates can span 3 weeks, but I think 3 months is way too long. I would recommend you walk, unless she’s really clear about her feelings for you.

          Like I said, I have not seen too many women operate like this past age 23 or 24. I think if you keep dating women like this, you need to ask yourself what it is about them that’s attracting you and what could be warning signs that she’s not that into you from the beginning. If a girl is really into you, yea, she might want to wait, but she’s not going to be out at the bar looking for hotter guys to sleep with.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Alex

          If you keep dating women who are actively seeking out and sleeping with better looking men while stringing you along, then I’m really really sorry.

          It is not that simple.   Women do, in fact, behave the way that Benjamin outlined.   That is what I meant by a bi-modal approach to sex.   A woman will often date two men back-to-back (serial monogamy) where one is hot enough to get scenario #1 whereas the other gets scenario #2.   In effect, the guy in scenario #2 has to pay full price for what the guy in scenario #1 received on fire sale.   That is the behavior that makes men who have options balk.   Scenario #1 is alpha fux.   Scenario #2 is beta bux.   If a woman is incapable of seeing how she is lowering the ranking of guy #2 within the male social hierarchy, the odds of her finding a lasting relationship are close to nil.   A man with options will not pay full price for something that another man received at a fire sale price, and no woman wants a man without options.

      2. 26.1.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        Theo,

        I’m noticing all of your “we” statements where you include yourself in with the other male commenters.   Your language usage is that of a man talking to and about women.   But most of the readers here have noticed this already.

        1. KK

          GWTF,

          I noticed his “we” statements as well. Goes along with the rest of his anti-female rhetoric. 😉

        2. Theodora

          Yeah, great counter-argument to what I have written, ‘you are not a woman’. I am a woman, currently wasting time and writing on   this blog at 4.27 am during a night shift in Bucharest, Romania.

          If you pay any attention to what I wrote, I said that it’s part of human nature to avoid being taken as a fool and it’s completely natural for us humans to refuse paying full price for what is on sale. And as a human I understand why men can refuse to play the courtship/protector&provider/waiting for sex&being consistent game for women who didn’t put these conditions for previous men in their life. Actually, I think they lack self-respect if they DON’T do that. I wouldn’t give the time of the day to any person who asks effort and consistency from me while finding excuses to act differently with others.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Theo,

          You always “understand” the man’s side.   You always criticize women when they disagree with a man’s argument or the male perspective on an issue.   When criticizing women, you use inflammatory language;   women are “shaming” men;   women are being irrational, emotional,  unfair, or selfish.   Oh and let’s not forget your all western women are fat and unfeminine flamers.   (Which is ironic because people are questioning whether you are a woman because your attitudes and writing style are decidedly masculine.)

          Conversely, not once, have you ever agreed with one female commenter or expressed understanding of women’s general perspective on any one issue.   You use “we” to include yourself in with men, but don’t use “we” when talking about women.   The attitudes you have expressed are one dimensional, without nuance or depth.   There have been male trolls on this blog that are as consistently anti-women as you and yet NO ONE questions whether they are truly a man.   Isn’t that interesting.

          If being commenting on this blog at “4:27 am during a night shift in Bucharest” is a waste of time, then you may want to spend more time instead on the red pill sites since you have a clear respect and affinity for their message, tropes, and language.

           

        4. Theodora

          GoWiththeFlow,

          I can’t find the Reply option to your comments about double standards so I reply here:

          Both Madonna/whore and alpha f#cks/beta bucks are double standards and they exist as a tendency in men and women for obvious biological reasons.

          Men have to impregnate many women to have more chances of reproduction, but at the same time they want to be sure of paternity. So they have the conflicting desire of expecting easy access to sex and chastity at the same time.

          Women want the best genes for their offspring, but also resources and comfort to raise those offsprings, and most of us can’t get them from the men with the best genes.

          The ideal for men would be a complete alloy of Madonna/whore, a stunning virgin who wants to have sex only with him, but that virgin is horny and skilled like a pornstar since the first time. It’s even better if they can have one every day.

          The ideal for women is alpha f#cks/alpha bucks: a man who can offer the best genes, extreme excitement and maximum comfort at the same time and alternatively, depending on her wants and needs. It’s even better if he can have any woman on Earth, but he wants only her.

          Since these are unicorns and exist only in imagination, we are stuck with double standards.

          I’ve never commented on the Madonna/whore double standard because most men don’t deny that it’s real and this is how they act. It’s mostly women who claim that alpha f/beta b is just a trope of the manosphere.

           

           

           

           

        5. GoWiththeFlow

          Oh Theo, you need a cult deprogrammer. . .

          “I’ve never commented on the Madonna/whore double standard because most men don’t deny that it’s real and this is how they act. It’s mostly women who claim that alpha f/beta b is just a trope of the manosphere.”

          On this thread, the male commenters,  besides you and YAG,  specifically describe how  they DO NOT subscribe to the madonna/whore stereotype.   They stated they do not hold a woman’s past sexual behavior against her, and that any man who would is likely acting out his own feelings of insecurity.   Know who else doesn’t buy into this double standard?   Our gracious blog host, Evan.   But why let what other men think interfere with your Red Pill narrative that men are logical while women are clueless idiots who deny their inherently evil and capricious nature, hmmmnn?

          As far as your fanatical adherence to the laughable but oh so revered core manosphere belief  of alpha fux/beta bux***, I will quote Jeremy who succinctly and precisely blows away that theory in the thread at 27.1.4:

          “YAG, I spent too much time on the manosphere years ago.   I read Rollo’s posts and devoured them hungrily.   Some of his posts are brilliant, but mostly they are full of crap and confirmation bias.   He is describing one type of woman and generalizing it to the whole female population, thereby falling victim to the very apex fallacy that he accuses women of.

          A woman with a goal of novelty will seek novelty.

          A woman with a goal of validation will seek valdiation.

          A woman with a goal of relationships will seek relationships.

          All of the above might have multiple sexual partners, all might have had one night stands — all will view those experiences differently in terms of what they mean to them and their future relationships.   Women don’t seek to trap beta males (and themselves) into loveless, sexless relationships.   But women sometimes do make mistakes in selecting partners because they don’t understand their own desires.   So do men.   And if these mistakes tend to be systematic rather than individual, they still vary more by personality than by gender.

          The solution is not to accuse women of hypergamy, it is to understand the individual woman you are interested in and to understand yourself.”

          ***BTW, if the red pill guys want to keep people from laughing at their insipid  theories at least until the  reader  gets to the end of it, they need to not spell them like they’re seven year olds applying phonics lessons to adults only words.

      3. 26.1.3
        Evan Marc Katz

        WGOTW. Maybe spend a half-second trying to understand and empathize with women instead of excoriating them. Fact is: BOTH sides have a point. The problem is that neither has acknowledged the truth of the other side.

        1. Theodora

          I am a woman myself.

          Objectively speaking, I see no reason to empathize with people who demand consistency   and selflessness while admitting that ‘we can:t be consistent all the time and we all have self-interests in dating”. And I can’ t empathize with people who are blind to their blatant double standards and lack of self-awareness and introspection while accusing others of double standards and lack of introspection. Empathizing with this sort of people îs the surest way to be taken as a fool, because they use your empathy against you.

          I reserve my empathy and sympathy for people who talk the talk and walk the walk, in all the stages of their adult life.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          You sound like Ayn Rand – smart, logical, and a bit heartless.

          You’re entitled to that and others are entitled to perceive you that way.

          Basically, if you choose to “limit” empathy for certain people and deny it to others, it’s pretty limiting and cold. To each her own. I choose to have empathy for the lovelorn women and men whose blind spots get in the way of their success – even when it’s partially their fault. I’d suggest you join me. You’ll probably be happier.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Theodora,

          “And I can’ t empathize with people who are blind to their blatant double standards and lack of self-awareness and introspection while accusing others of double standards and lack of introspection”

          On this blog  a man recently wrote that he’s in a quandary in that he loves sluts (he defines as a woman willing to participate in certain sexual acts) but would never marry one.   A glaring double standard but you were silent.

          Every time the issue of women earning more than a prospective male partner comes up there are men who in past statements say they resent being expected to support women financially, state they feel “emasculated” when they earn less than their partner.   Or they say they would never date a “career woman” because they are b*tches, or something to that effect.   And you who is so concerned about double standards (and about an issue that as a working woman affects you!) are silent.

          You only rail against  people who are “. . .blind to their blatant double standards and lack of self awareness and introspection. . .” when those people are women.

      4. 26.1.4
        Marika

        Sorry, couldn’t respond earlier as was getting treatment for my (actually I think you wrote there were two?) nervous breakdowns… 😉

        I’ll take a ‘nervous breakdown’ any day over changing my identity just to get a point across on a blog. You’d have far more credibility posting as yourself than masquerading as an Eastern European woman.

  7. 27
    Shaukat

    I have to balk at some of these long as hell comments left by male and female posters, many of them in their 60s and 70s probably, talking about how ONS’s and NSA sex are either a predictor of future behavior, a statement about how one might value the present relationship, or an indicator of how attractive a partner feels you might be. There’s really no nice way to put this, so I’ll simply state it clearly:

    You are racked with insecurity due to your own feelings of sexual inadequacy. That’s it. Work on that, instead of trying to shame the person you’re with, or women in general, into internalizing the outdated Virgin/Whore dichotomy. Jesus Christ, did some of you just walk out of a Mad Men episode? You don’t seem to understand a thing about female psychology. It’s definitely true that women have a higher looks threshold than men when it comes to NSA sex, but that doesn’t mean that if a woman ever had a ONS it must mean that she believed that the man in question was well-above you in looks or general attractiveness. Her emotional state, incentives, and circumstances at the time could explain a lot in terms of her decision.

    I can offer an anecdote from my own life to drive this point home. Several years ago ( I was 27 at the time) I met a woman at a bar through mutual friends and hooked up with her that same night. Had never met her before. I saw her again a few weeks later at another friends’ party. We were both enthusiastic and happy to see each other, but she refused to get physical at all this time, even though we were both still single. You think it’s because I became less attractive to her in three weeks time? (hint: I didn’t). For whatever reason, she was willing to engage in NSA sex when we first met, but was no longer in the same head space. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if she went on to seriously date guys who were ‘objectively’ better looking than me who she didn’t sleep with right away. So for god’s sake, quit whining and accept the fact that its 2017.

    Also,  Chance,  nice to see you commenting again.

    Marika,  thanks for your last post. I’m starting to realize that we agree on a lot. Sorry about the time I wrote that you were too sensitive about comments:)

    1. 27.1
      Callie

      Can’t believe I’m saying this but I 100% agree with you Shaukat. I’ve not said a thing this thread because this whole comment thread has been so mind-boggling to me, but I do wonder if this is, now that you mention age, a truly generational thing. The notion that a woman who has sex fast with a guy is more attracted to him and considers him a higher value than someone who has to wait is so completely illogical and goes against so much of what I have observed in real life that I just kind of have been speechless. The notion too that all men and all women approach sex with the same attitude and same kind of scale of value is truly bizarre to me as well.

      Basically yes to everything you just said and I’ll add on to it further with this example: my female friend came to town and stayed with me. She is in crazy love with this one guy and in a very complicated kind of “relationship” with him (they aren’t exclusive). The amount of conversations we had about him, the hopes for the future she has for him, the attraction etc . . . it’s what any of the guys here would kill to have their partners feel for them. But he’s non-committal. And I’ve warned her about this. She doesn’t listen to me, but I’ve warned her. And because of his attitude she often feels unattractive because she doesn’t feel good enough for him. So what does she do? She chooses a random male friend who thinks she’s hot and has sex with him. She returns home and says the sex is meh, whatever. But that wasn’t the point. The point was for that evening to feel wanted. Now the guys here would claim since she’s sleeping with this random guy  right away that clearly she is far more interested and attracted to this  guy. But after all I’ve just written surely we can see that she is crazy wild about the guy she can’t have, and is only somewhat interested in the FWB.

      Women and men have sex for so many reasons. And alas for a lot of women one of the reasons isn’t about our attraction to the men, but THEIR attraction to us. We are taught from a young age as women that our value comes in the form of men being attracted to us. And a lot of women will have sex with some guy she’s not even that interested in just so they can feel valuable and attractive.

      Of course there are many other reasons women have sex too. But this one is quite  common, and the fact that none of the guys here claiming that women only have sex with men quickly if they are wild about them have come up with this reason means I had to say something. I think it might hurt men to know that some women sleep with them not because they are attracted to them but to make themselves feel better. Men want to feel validated, as Jeremy has repeatedly said, and to realise that women have their own reasons for having sex that don’t always have something to do with the guy they are with is kind of a blow to the ego I’d assume.

      Anyway. The point is basically what Shaukat said. There are so many reasons people have sex with each other, many of them actually not personal, and really people need to get over their insecurities (men AND women alike). Or again, as he said: “So for god’s sake, quit whining and accept the fact that its 2017.”

      1. 27.1.1
        GoWiththeFlow

        Callie & Shaukat,

        I think it is generational.   Up above, Emily pointed out that over on Susan Wash’s blog, HookingUpSmart, that when the issue of how forthcoming a woman should be about her sexual past, there was a dent generational divide.   The older women (my age and above) said exercise caution or you will be judged.   The younger women said they discussed their past freely with boyfriends and it wasn’t a big deal.

        It’s nice to see the change, and I’m glad younger women are more free of the sexual double standard than previous generations of women are.   For women my age, the reality is that there are a lot of men out there like YAG–who once out and out said his problem in he wants a slut but will never marry one–and Theo(dora) who basically want the world to run on their biases.   When you look at the sum of their other comments, as Shaukat said it’s like being in the series Mad Men.

        1. Emily, the original

          GowiththeFlow,

          Up above, Emily pointed out that over on Susan Wash’s blog, HookingUpSmart, that when the issue of how forthcoming a woman should be about her sexual past, there was a dent generational divide.   The older women (my age and above) said exercise caution or you will be judged.   The younger women said they discussed their past freely with boyfriends and it wasn’t a big deal.

          Maybe I wasn’t clear. I meant that, in terms of the younger generation, both parties expect detailed information such as previous partner count when entering a long term relationship and that the older generation isn’t that forthcoming with those intimate details. However, sexual history is still being used to gauge long term compatibility. As Jeremy wrote, a person with a low number of sex partners who views sex as love is looking for someone who views sex in the same way. I’m assuming that young women could still be judged if the man in question found out information about his partner he didn’t like.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          From what I hear from women and men in their 20s and early 30s, the double standards have lessened.   I’m happy for that generation.

        3. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow,

          From what I hear from women and men in their 20s and early 30s, the double standards have lessened.

          I’ve read that too, but that opens up another can of worms for the more traditional woman. Men and women (so I’ve read) now pursue equally and courtship is much different.

        4. Chance

          hi Emily-As a millennial, I can tell you that men still do the vast majority of pursuing because this is what women expect.   My takeaway from growing up is that, while women want for it to be okay for them to pursue, they still expect men to do the pursuing.   GWTF is right that the double-standards that were harmful to women have been eroding.    The double-standards that harm men haven’t eroded quite as fast.   Hopefully, we’ll see that catch up in the near future.

        5. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          As a millennial, I can tell you that men still do the vast majority of pursuing because this is what women expect.   My takeaway from growing up is that, while women want for it to be okay for them to pursue, they still expect men to do the pursuing.   GWTF is right that the double-standards that were harmful to women have been eroding.    The double-standards that harm men haven’t eroded quite as fast.   Hopefully, we’ll see that catch up in the near future.

          Ok. You were honest with me and said the sex is better is it happens by the 3rd date. You said it shows the women is attracted to you. Frankly, the sex is better (at least from my perspective) when the man does the initial pursuing.   By initial, I mean they asked me out or they propositioned me. They did the initial work. Stuck their necks out, so to speak.   That doesn’t mean I sat there like a plucked flower afterward. They threw the ball at men and I threw it right back, but the ones where I did the initial pursuit … weren’t as good sexually. An initial, masculine energy shows a man knows what he wants, he’s not afraid of it and he’s going after it.

        6. Chance

          Emily, I misunderstood.   I thought you were saying they millenial women pursued (I.e., asked out) men as much as the other way around.   I was just pointing out that I don’t think this is accurate.

        7. Emily, the original

          Emily,

          I thought you were saying they millenial women pursued (I.e., asked out) men as much as the other way around.   I was just pointing out that I don’t think this is accurate.

          No. Sorry. I wasn’t clear. I read Susan Walsh’s blog “Hooking Up Smart.” From what I’ve gathered from some of the younger male commenters is that the men may do the initial pursuit but expect the women to show equal interest after that. If it was a situation where, say, after the first date, the men were always initiating all the contact and making all the plans, they wouldn’t continue dating the woman. Whereas I think with older generations, women expect men to do the initial and subsequent pursuing, at least for the first several dates.

      2. 27.1.2
        Shaukat

        Callie,  ha, thanks, I’m sure we would agree on many other things as well if we were to compare notes!

        Jeremy,  my comment wasn’t directed at you, though I could see how it might have been perceived that way. I like your intellectual posts, keep it up.

        Chance,  you make a good point, and I agree, most people who have experience dating understand that when chemistry is strong the rules tend to go out the window for both genders. A few weeks does seem like a short time though. If I may ask, when you were dating, and if you felt that the woman did not feel an 8/10 chemistry for you, would you walk?

        KK,   I agree about the double standards, but I do think that a strict adherence to certain double standards actually stems from feelings of inadequacy and insecurity, at least on certain issues.

        1. Chance

          “A few weeks does seem like a short time though. If I may ask, when you were dating, and if you felt that the woman did not feel an 8/10 chemistry for you, would you walk?”

           

          Yes.   There are many other options out there.   At some point during my mid-to-late 20s, I started to discover a trend in that the women who make you wait for sex beyond, say, a month or so aren’t really that fun to have sex with in the first place.   I, and I think I can speak for almost all guys here, would much rather be with someone who is organically turned on by me.

        2. Nissa

          Chance, this is making the assumption that women who are asking the man to wait beyond a month for sex, either are asexual or are boring in the bedroom. I don’t think that’s accurate. While there may be some women for whom that is true, I believe there are at least an equal number of women who are lusty, passionate women who have shared that passion with men who turned out to be uninterested in a relationship with them, who  turned out  to have previously unmentioned dealbreakers, or who  just wanted  different things. Most experienced women  have gone through all of those and would prefer not to repeat the experience, in spite of how excited they are about their new man. We hope for the best, but prepare for less.

      3. 27.1.3
        Theodora

        Your story about your girl friend is just one more example în favor of the alpha f#cks/beta bucks dichotomy. Your friend went so crazy after a non-commital man who treats her like crap that she is ready to sleep with randos to ease the pain a little bit. By the way, we don’t know from this story how fast she slept with the non-commital man who treats her like crap. My guess is that very fast, probably immediately.

        And your hypothesis about women sleeping with men who are crazy about them while the women are meh just for societal/cultural validation is not just doubtful, but even ridiculous, in my opinion. Speaking from my experience and that of the women I know, when women are meh about men who desire them very much they either a) reject them and tell them more or less directly to get lost or b) if the men are useful în other aspects, we try more or less consciously to friendzone them. That is the reaction of most women when not optimal genetically suitors try to have casual sex, except outliers like prostitutes and nymphomaniacs.

        We might be in 2017, but the pesky heritage of thousands of years of evolution is still a burden on us.

        1. Nissa

          Jeremy, I really like what you said.   And while I agree that personality doesn’t change in general, some of do learn by experience. Is there a statute of limitations on stupid behavior? I hope so. I know that  the first time I had my heart broken, I found myself assuming things were true with my next boyfriend, that turned out not to be. He just wasn’t that into me. But I had so hoped to be in a relationship again, that I didn’t think to ask if that’s what it was. It was less about finding validation than it was, I just thought it was the same as before (it wasn’t). But since that was in my early 20’s, I like to think that I’ve grown, matured and become more wise since then.

        2. Jeremy

          Hi Nissa.   I do think that people can learn and grow and change.   They had better.   As much as I like to think I’m the same guy I was decades ago, I’m not the same at all.   And that’s good.

           

          They say that personality is a combination of disposition and predisposition, and while predisposition does not change, disposition certainly does.   Our relationship goals definitely mature over time.   But our sexual goals?   In my experience, they don’t.   So important to tease out the difference.   So important to understand, when we seek relationships, what we need for relationships and what we need for sex.   Different!   Both must be present!   And having one does not mean having the other, even if, in the excitement of the relationship, we think it does.

           

          This is the fallacy of the Chemistry/Compatibility dichotomy: The assumption that we know the difference….

      4. 27.1.4
        Jeremy

        @Callie, you wrote, “A lot of women will have sex with men they are not even attracted to, just so they can feel valuable and attractive….and the fact that none of the guys here…have come up with that reason means I had to say something.”

         

        You mean to say that some women have a goal of….validation?   Perhaps one of the guys might have mentioned that before. 🙂   The question for the man who wants to enter into a relationship with such a woman is whether he wants to be with a woman who has that goal, and whether he respects the way she channels that goal into her actions.   Different people will answer that question differently.

        1. Emily, the original

          Callie wrote: She is in crazy love with this one guy … But he’s non-committal.   … And because of his attitude she often feels unattractive … So what does she do? She chooses a random male friend who thinks she’s hot and has sex with him. She returns home and says the sex is meh, whatever.

          Something tells me the guy friend is now really interested in her and the one she really wants remains non-committal.

          Jeremy wrote: You mean to say that some women have a goal of….validation?

          Big difference, though, between seeking validation from a partner or spouse you value and seeking validation from someone you aren’t really interested in. With the latter, you usually want to do it and move along pretty quickly.

        2. Jeremy

          Emily, you wrote  “Big difference, though, between seekikng validation from a partner or spouse you value and seeking validation from someone you aren’t really interested in.”

          I agree that there’s a big difference, but not just in the way you mentioned.   The difference is in the character of the person.   I would respect the woman in question for leaving the relationship from which she could not get validation, then seeking a healthy way of deriving the validation she needs.

           

          One woman commented this morning that she feels women can have it all – have flings with highly attractive men, then seek commitment from guys who are less attractive, realizing that the very attractive ones are unlikely to commit.   There are 2 critical fallacies in this mentality, though, that I wish people would realize.   1) That if you need validation through having attractive partners in your youth, you won’t suddenly stop wanting that when you get older.   You won’t suddenly “mature” out of your sexual desires.   You might temporarily substitute those desires with desire for a relationship/children, but if you marry a man you perceive as “less than hot”, that is exactly how you will see him.

           

          2) That you need to consider the needs of the other person.   The “less than hot” guy should not feel lucky just to be with you, just because you consider yourself out of his league.   He wants you to desire him for the same reasons he desires you.   If you can’t do so, if you can only desire him for the commitment you want, you are not doing him a favour by being with him.   Quite the opposite.

           

          No one wants to feel like human broccoli – eaten because it is nutritious, when what one really craves is chocolate.   Ever notice how regular food tastes bad after just eating chocolate?   We see everything in context…

        3. Callie

          “You mean to say that some women have a goal of….validation?   Perhaps one of the guys might have mentioned that before.”

          But if that’s the case, why do you continue to insist that women only choose to sleep quickly with really hot men who they consider of high value? Yes some women here have said that that’s what they do, but I know so many other women who sleep with guys they are not particularly attracted to because THE MEN are attracted to THEM. Because of that form of validation. The guys they really want don’t want them back and so anything is better than nothing. For that brief moment they feel attractive to someone else. Not constantly rejected. That’s why they sleep with the guy. Not because they find the guy super hot or anything.

          You keep talking about validation through attractive partners below and I’m saying that there are many women who get validation not through the attractiveness of their partners but by  how attracted those men are to them. Heck I know many women who are far more attracted to other men who  they actively avoid for fear of being vulnerable with such a person. For fear of feeling out of control.

          The fact that you so consistently conclude “one night stand” = “woman is very  attracted to the man” is what I’m pushing back against.

           

          Emily – oh it’s so complicated, and I’d agree in a normal situation you’d be right. But in this case the FWB is really just that, very chill. But yeah the non-committal guy, ugh, drives me crazy. Says and does all the right things but refuses to put a label on stuff and I keep telling her if a guy really wants a girl he will absolutely demonstrate that. And she knows. She knows. But she’s crazy about him, and emotions you know? I fear she’s going to end up hurt. And I hate that. And there’s nothing I can really do about it. All I know is I’ll be there for her regardless of what ends up happening.

        4. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

            The “less than hot” guy should not feel lucky just to be with you, just because you consider yourself out of his league.   He wants you to desire him for the same reasons he desires you.   If you can’t do so, if you can only desire him for the commitment you want, you are not doing him a favor by being with him.   Quite the opposite….No one wants to feel like human broccoli — eaten because it is nutritious

          That’s not what I meant, but there are a lot of factors that go into picking a partner. No one gets it all in one person. It’s not possible. You don’t get a 10-level chemistry (didn’t you say you had more chemistry with a previous girlfriend than your wife? Should your wife feel you are “eating broccoli” with her?) plus a 10-level compatibility in someone who also wants to be with you and commit to you. Both sides have to compromise. And I’m not hung up on a man’s looks, but, yes, there certainly are some men who are sexier than others. There are certainly some men who a woman has better sex with than others.   Often, a relationship with super high chemistry implodes (or you find out there isn’t much there besides that), which is why people start aiming for a lower level.

           

        5. Jeremy

          Emily, there’s a lot that goes in to picking a partner, I agree.   But I think that most people approach it from an agnostic point of view rather than an informed one.   People eg0-invest in their own un-knowabillty.   How many people on this thread have agnostically stated that people have sex for so many reasons?   While it is true that *people* have sex for so many reasons, individuals do not.   Not in the long-term.

           

          I don’t need to be my partner’s “10” in chemistry, the hottest man she’s ever met.   When she watches Mad Men, she comments that Jon Hamm is a handsome man, and I’m not threatened.   What I need is a partner who understands the difference between her sexual meta-goals and her relationship goals – one who did not marry me to meet a relationship goal in spite of a sexual one, not having the insight into her own behavior to understand the difference.

        6. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          What I need is a partner who understands the difference between her sexual meta-goals and her relationship goals — one who did not marry me to meet a relationship goal in spite of a sexual one, not having the insight into her own behavior to understand the difference.

          Are there not people whose relationship goals contradict their sexual ones? That’s has to be at least somewhat common. A battle between the mind and the body.

        7. Jeremy

          It is very common IME.   And it causes no end of problems.   No one wants to be a long-term partner to such a person.   Short term is less of an issue.

        8. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          No one wants to be a long-term partner to such a person.   Short term is less of an issue.

          You’re asking a lot. For people to really know who they are and what they want in terms of an area of life (sex) that can make your entire body turn on your mind. Hello, hormones.

        9. Yet Another Guy

          @Jeremy

          One woman commented this morning that she feels women can have it all — have flings with highly attractive men, then seek commitment from guys who are less attractive, realizing that the very attractive ones are unlikely to commit.

          @Emily, the original

          Are there not people whose relationship goals contradict their sexual ones? That’s has to be at least somewhat common. A battle between the mind and the body.

          What has been written by both of you forms the basis of alpha fux/beta bux. The premise is that women ride the carousel until they reach a point where their looks start to fade (known as hitting the wall).   Realizing that hot guys are a lot of fun, but non-committal, a post-wall woman starts looking for a beta provider who will allow her to have a family, one on which she will cheat with hot guys after her goal of having a family is achieved (Jeremy has a valid point).   Guys who were not members of the carousel look down on beta providers because they see these women as damaged goods.   They have a right to feel that way.   These women shunned the non-hot guys while they were still able to get the hot guys.   No decent guy wants a woman who has ridden the carousel as a life partner just as no self-respecting woman wants a guy who was part carousel as a life partner.

        10. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG,

          My God, how the RP guys break down complex and varied interactions between the sexes into a  black and white all or nothing paradigm that in reality applies in very few instances.   Of course the woman is the evil person here acting consciously at all times with malevolent intent.   And if she’s over 30 she’s ugly and useless too!

          This is a site about finding and having a healthy relationship.   Please spew  your manosphere garbage over at an appropriate website.

        11. Jeremy

          YAG, I spent too much time on the manosphere years ago.   I read Rollo’s posts and devoured them hungrily.   Some of his posts are brilliant, but mostly they are full of crap and confirmation bias.   He is describing one type of woman and generalizing it to the whole female population, thereby falling victim to the very apex fallacy that he accuses women of.

           

          A woman with a goal of novelty will seek novelty.

          A woman with a goal of validation will seek valdiation.

          A woman with a goal of relationships will seek relationships.

           

          All of the above might have multiple sexual partners, all might have had one night stands – all will view those experiences differently in terms of what they mean to them and their future relationships.   Women don’t seek to trap beta males (and themselves) into loveless, sexless relationships.   But women sometimes do make mistakes in selecting partners because they don’t understand their own desires.   So do men.   And if these mistakes tend to be systematic rather than individual, they still vary more by personality than by gender.

           

          The solution is not to accuse women of hypergamy, it is to understand the individual woman you are interested in and to understand yourself.

        12. Emily, the original

          Callie,

          Emily — oh it’s so complicated … But yeah the non-committal guy, ugh, drives me crazy. Says and does all the right things but refuses to put a label on stuff and I keep telling her if a guy really wants a girl he will absolutely demonstrate that.

          But it really isn’t that complicated. You hit the nail on the head. I read somewhere that the less you have to analyze a relationship and talk it over with your girlfriends, the better it is.

        13. Callie

          Emily – totally agree with you there, though I don’t think there’s anything wrong hashing things out with others. I just think that that other more often than not ought to be the person with whom you are having the relationship, not everyone else (the number of times I’ve asked my girl friends, “Have you told him any of this . . . ?”). But totally, to my mind the best relationships are the ones that are clear and straightforward. No games. No need to guess what the other person is thinking. The more complicated the more I’m not interested quite frankly.

          What I meant though by complicated in this case is that some things are as you predicted they were, but some were not (like the guy she hooked up with now having strong feelings for her when she doesn’t like him – that didn’t happen). Some of her situation is totally predictable, some of it has its own unique qualities. That’s what I meant. It was a complex situation that honestly I have no idea how she handles it. It’s too exhausting for me and doesn’t tend to end with positive results.

        14. Emily, the original

          Callie,

          though I don’t think there’s anything wrong hashing things out with others.

          I agree. It’s good to have good friends to talk to, but at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is the answer to this one question: What is the guy doing? If he’s not stepping up to be a boyfriend, well, then your friend has her answer. That was a painful realization on my part, so I understand where she’s coming from. But most of this stuff isn’t that hard to figure out once you ask yourself that question.

        15. Yet Another Guy

          @Jeremy

          Some of his posts are brilliant, but mostly they are full of crap and confirmation bias.

          I too believe that the alpha fux/beta bux thing is bit of an exaggeration if applied to all women; however, as a guy who used to play lead guitar in gigging bands, I have witnessed this phenomenon first hand.

          With that being said, there are women who like to have sex with alphas, but would not marry one.   That is no different than a man who likes to have sex with a slutty woman, but would not marry one.

          I have a bunch of sisters who often forget that I am a guy.   The stuff that they tell me about their girlfriends is probably better not known.   I grew up or attended school with a lot of these women or their siblings, so I am often shocked to learn this information.   I know which woman is cheating on her husband and with whom.   I even know a woman whose husband believes that a child she conceived through an affair is his.     Now, that is something better not known.

        16. Jeremy

          YAG, Rollo’s brilliance is in his description and insight into the type of woman he describes.   That type definitely exists.   His blindness is in the assumption that this describes all or even most women.   If only he, and the guys who follow him, would realize that their model of the world is limited, they would realize the illogic of their over-arching assumptions.

        17. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          I too believe that the alpha fux/beta bux thing is bit of an exaggeration if applied to all women;

          It is an exaggeration. There are some women who like nice guys and want good boyfriends and that has been there objective all along. When I was in graduate school, I remember a friend telling which of our male classmates she would date had she not had a boyfriend. I think she thought he was a nice guy and, also, he was available. I remember thinking, “Hmm. Is that how some woman do it?” I hadn’t really noticed this guy. I always looked for attraction but her criteria were totally different.

    2. 27.2
      KK

      At the end of the day, it simply boils down to compatibility, in my opinion. Women that share the same perspective as Shaukat would be compatible with him. Women who do not share his perspective but are cool with it, would also be compatible with him. But women who do not share his perspective AND are not okay with it, obviously would not be compatible with him.

      Shaukat said, “You are racked with insecurity due to your own feelings of sexual inadequacy”.  

      If you’re referring to YAG, you may have a point, although I’m not sure. The main issue with YAG is his double standards, which would make him incompatible with any self respecting woman. Lol.

      However, I didn’t see any hypocrisy in anything Jeremy has said. It doesn’t mean you have to agree with him. It certainly doesn’t mean he has feelings of sexual inadequacy. It only means you share different perspectives and would therefore have different women you would be compatible with.

       

      1. 27.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @KK

        If you’re referring to YAG, you may have a point, although I’m not sure. The main issue with YAG is his double standards, which would make him incompatible with any self respecting woman. Lol.

        I do not have a double standard.   I do not have casual sex, nor do I hold what a women did in the distant past against her; therefore, that is a non sequitur.   My objection is clearly to what I am referring to as a currently-practiced bi-modal approach to sex where some guys receive a rapid green light to sex and others a made to make an investment.   If a woman cannot somehow see that she is lowering the value of the man who has to wait, then she will always have problems with men.   A woman cannot expect a guy to feel privileged because he is made to pay full price for what another man received on sale.   That is lunacy.

        1. KK

          YAG,

          I stand by what I said. You have many double standards. When anyone mentions it to you, you deny and move the goal posts. Kind of like trying to nail jello to a tree. Conversing about it is an exercise in futility. Completely fruitless.

          I have never heard the term ‘sexy on stand by’ before. I would have assumed you were referring to women who you deem worthy of casual sex in between times you’re pursuing someone else. However, you claim that your sexy(s) on standby all want you but you just have them over to spend the night. No sex. In my entire life, I’ve only known ONE person who was seeing a guy that did something similar.

        2. Emily, the original

          KK,

          I would have assumed you were referring to women who you deem worthy of casual sex in between times you’re pursuing someone else. However, you claim that your sexy(s) on standby all want you but you just have them over to spend the night. No sex. In my entire life, I’ve only known ONE person who was seeing a guy that did something similar.

          The only guys I’ve heard of doing overnights like that were very young and very religious. They would actually do some things sexually but not intercourse. Then they could claim they were still virgins.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          However, you claim that your sexy(s) on standby all want you but you just have them over to spend the night. No sex. In my entire life, I’ve only known ONE person who was seeing a guy that did something similar.

          I had one sexy-on-standby spend the night, and I would definitely not have sex with her because that would mean I was agreeing to a relationship, which is what she wanted.   I met this women shortly after I separated from my ex.   She provided much needed emotional support at a time when I was questioning things.   The female commenters on this blog convinced me to cut her and another woman I had on standby loose.

          The answer to the question that was edited before the post was approved is “no, I do not have that condition,” which has been confirmed by the medical establishment.   I did, at one point, believe that to be the case, but it is just emotional baggage that falls under the umbrella of “intimacy avoidance.”   The acid test for a man is whether or not he can set the table for one sexually.   If the answer to that question is “yes,” it is psychological, not physiological.   The problem started in my childhood (emotionally abusive mother who was a bit of a harlot) and was compounded by my marriage (emotionally abusive partner who is just as damaged by her past).   I am working through it.

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          The only guys I’ve heard of doing overnights like that were very young and very religious. They would actually do some things sexually but not intercourse. Then they could claim they were still virgins.

          This particular woman has been used by a lot of men, to the point where her self-esteem was in the trash when we first met.   One of the reasons why I did not have sex with her is because I did not want to be her boyfriend, and she would have assumed that if we had gotten physical.   The other reason is that I actually have a conscience.    I did not want to be next guy to be added to her “user” list.   I was helping her bring up her standards, and she was helping me get through my divorce.   Did the thought cross my mind? Absolutely!   Was there sexual tension? Absolutely!   However, I am glad that I did not attempt to have sex with her because I do not feel guilty in the least.   Both of us got something other than sex out of the deal.   She now only has sex in committed relationships with much higher quality guys.   We still talk and text.

        5. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Both of us got something other than sex out of the deal.   She now only has sex in committed relationships with much higher quality guys.   We still talk and text.

          You developed a friendship with that woman. That is different from the situations I was referring to. They happened when I was in my early 20s. A couple of guys who went home with me but then would not do everything. Yes, I thought it was strange and a bit of wasted energy on my part to talk to them/flirt/get them back to my apartment, etc., for only part of the equation. I wish they had given me the heads up earlier.

    3. 27.3
      Chance

      Cheers, Shaukat.   I can understand why many men feel insecure about this.   They want to be desired for the same reasons they desire women, and not for their capacity for parental investment and provisioning (as I believe Jeremy was possibly alluding to when he noted being desired for “other reasons”).   Men want to be desired in the same manner that they desire women (not the same thing as wanting to be valued for the same traits, however).   Same goes for women, which is why women so often wish that they could be desired in a manner that is beyond the sexual.

       

      With that said, I’d say that it’s a waste of time to even consider a woman’s sexual past (let alone ask her about it) because it isn’t necessary to do so.   Some women might argue with me about this, but I simply think that it’s near impossible for a woman to hold out for an extended period of time if she is very aroused by a man.   If the sexual chemistry level is at an 8-10, which is how most men want the women their with to feel, she will succumb to his sexual advances fairly quickly despite her “stage of life”, her convictions, and all her efforts to maintain that emotional high ground.   Human sexuality will not go unexpressed.

       

      If a woman is able to keep you waiting for several weeks before having sex, she is only able to do so because the sexual chemistry is low enough to effect this, and you have your answer as it relates to how she feels about you from an arousal standpoint.   This isn’t to say that these women are repulsed by these men, but it’s likely that they are not very aroused by them, either.   This is why some women, particularly in the over-30 crowd, actually avoid men for whom they feel an extreme attraction because don’t want to contend with the negative consequences during their search for what they consider to be compatible (e.g., stable, willing to provide, etc.).

      1. 27.3.1
        Emily, the original

        Chance,

        If the sexual chemistry level is at an 8-10, which is how most men want the women their with to feel, she will succumb to his sexual advances fairly quickly despite her “stage of life”, her convictions, and all her efforts to maintain that emotional high ground.   Human sexuality will not go unexpressed.

        I agree with you but I don’t know if “several weeks” is that long. You go out once a week … maybe she holds off until date 3 if she’s really into the guy. If she’s very attracted to him and she likes him, she may still want to go on a couple of dates before having sex with him. The reason is that 8-10 chemistry dates are rare. Strong mutual attraction is rare. (Usually one likes the other more.) When it happens, sometimes you just act on it.

         

        1. Sum Guy

          Emily @27.3.1

          I agree with you but I don’t know if “several weeks” is that long. You go out once a week … maybe she holds off until date 3 if she’s really into the guy. If she’s very attracted to him and she likes him, she may still want to go on a couple of dates before having sex with him. The reason is that 8-10 chemistry dates are rare. Strong mutual attraction is rare. (Usually one likes the other more.) When it happens, sometimes you just act on it.”

          Maybe I’m easily aroused, arousing, (picky to begin with) or all three, but I don’t find 8-10 chemistry dates rare, in fact about 1 in 4.   Why I’ve focused on the compatibility 10 date, and trying to hold off on sex.

        2. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          but I don’t find 8-10 chemistry dates rare, in fact about 1 in 4.

          That’s because you’re a man!   🙂       I think I can count on both hands the number of men I’ve felt a 10 chemistry with in my life. I went out with 3 of them. An 8 level is still difficult to find in terms the options you have of who is asking you out. Not impossible, just not easy.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Sum Guy

          Maybe I’m easily aroused, arousing, (picky to begin with) or all three, but I don’t find 8-10 chemistry dates rare, in fact about 1 in 4.  

          I have dated the better part of 100 women since re-entering the dating pool, and I have not had true, full-on sexual chemistry with one.   I am now able to compartmentalize sex drive-driven desire from true chemistry, which is something that I could not do when I was younger.   Having a very high libido often leads to faux sexual chemistry for a guy.

        4. Chance

          Emily, I found that date 3 is usually when I first had sex with the women I dated.   If you’re seeing each other once a week, that means you’re having sex two weeks after you meet.   These are also the situations, not coincidentally, when I found the sex to be the most satisfying (better than both the situations when sex occurs on the first night and the situations when it takes a while to get to the sex).   In these situations, I’ve found that the women are really into you, but want to give a token effort to show that they aren’t easy.   Nothing is more exciting than pushing that envelope by causing her to go a little faster than she would logically prefer to go, but she just can’t resist the urge to get to it right away.

        5. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          In these situations, I’ve found that the women are really into you, but want to give a token effort to show that they aren’t easy.  

          LOL. Yes, that’s what it is IF you are really into the guy. You’re talking about a strong attraction, though. Something pushing you to move quickly. That ain’t your average date.

        6. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          Nothing is more exciting than pushing that envelope by causing her to go a little faster than she would logically prefer to go, but she just can’t resist the urge to get to it right away.

          You aren’t pushing the envelope. She already decided on date 2 (if whatever happened on that evening gave her a glimpse of how hot things could be) that she was game and ready by the next date.

      2. 27.3.2
        Marika

        You’ve obviously never dated a woman who was brought up religious, Chance!

        Overall, though, there is some truth to what you’ve said. I’m not easily drawn into having sex, but can be drawn into doing other things earlier than I’d like to if the chemistry is hot enough &/or the person is manipulative enough. I’d be very surprised if guys don’t act differently with women & do things slightly differently if she’s crazy hot vs not as hot. In fact, I know they do..It’s just human nature.

        This is one case, I think where the ladies are being a lot more realistic. This whole thing feels like the conversation where women want men to pay for everything or to be hotter in his eyes than a movie star. They want it because they want it. They try to give all sorts of reasoning for it, but it’s all feelings- based and not the man’s fault/problem. In this case, it makes men feel good that they’re the hottest man on earth to us and although we normally make men wait years, for you, hot stuff, we made an exception! (So if it doesn’t work out, what does she tell the next guy??).

        For all the examples the men have given to help us try to understand this, none are ringing true for me. I fully accept that it’s entirely possible, even probable, that a man made a commitment to a woman earlier than me, courted her more strongly, found her prettier, younger, more feminine etc. Now things are different due to differences in his life circumstances, nothing to do with me.

        Which mentality makes dating easier & you less bitter do you think? Does Tom feel better having gotten past his issues with women having a past?

        1. Jeremy

          Marika, you and many others continue to write that the man’s past has nothing to do with you, that circumstances and priorities change.   You are right – it doesn’t have anything to do with you, but it has a hell of a lot to do with HIM.   His priorities have changed over time – why is that?   Circumstances will inevitably change again over time – how is he likely to react to that?   You can’t know the answers to those questions for sure, but you can get clues by understanding the psychology of the individual.   In the end of this long discussion, that is my point.   Don’t marry someone you don’t understand, and don’t believe you understand them until you know the difference between their sexual goals and their relationship goals.

        2. Theodora

          The ladies are being more realistic?

          I dunno, take a look at the comments on the threads about hotter than Angelina Jolie, why men look at other women, why men watch porn, why men visit strip clubs.

          Those comments are so funny that I sometimes read them to cheer me up when I have a bad day at work. In my estimation, around 70%-90% of women (granted, with a few exceptional voices of sanity), present   views such as: my bf/husband should consider me so hot that Marilyn Monroe can’t hold a candle to me, otherwise what’s the point of staying with me?, a man should admire only his wife’s female form, jerking off to porn even occasionaly is a form of betrayal or infidelity and infidelity, even imaginary, is abuse, entering a strip club means validating women’s objectification, abuse and sexual assault and I can give many more examples of this kind.

          As I said, granted, I read a few female voices of sanity, but I wonder why not more women who rally here against men’s perceived insecurities over a real fact (sex that happened in reality) don’t tell their sisters to moderate their crazy, childish insecurities over sex that happens (at best) only in imagination.

           

           

      3. 27.3.3
        GoWiththeFlow

        Chance,

        I agree with what you said in the first paragraph, except I would expand on it.   “Other reasons” can also include things like a woman prioritizing a man who is emotionally supportive, communicates effectively, or who has a good understanding of himself and an understanding of women, to name a few

        As far as women adjusting with whom or how fast they sleep with or enter relationships with men as they get older, it’s because sexual chemistry has led them into unhappy interactions or relationships with incompatible men.   Evan’s sexclusivity advice isn’t a means of manipulating a man into a commitment–a sex for commitment exchange.   It’s about holding off on sex (and the sense of attachment that could bring) until you know whether the man in question is right for you in other less sexy ways.   Some good looking guys are jerks.   Many women have had the experience of getting attached via chemistry to a good looking a$$hole who then puts them   through an emotional wringer.   So we learn to put the brakes on and say, okay he’s cute, let’s see if he’s a good person first before jumping into the sack.

        1. Chance

          Hi GTWF, thanks for your perspective.   However, my intent was primarily to provide advice (that can be taken or left) for guys to consider when they find themselves in a situation where a woman is holding out for sex for an extended period of time.   I don’t think what you described would keep a woman from having sex fairly early on if the attraction level is high enough IME.   Also, as I explained to Emily, the sex is usually not that good when it comes to women who make you wait.   I think there are generally two reasons for this:   1.) She isn’t all that aroused by you, and 2.) Some issues exist surrounding her emotional health/maturity.   Usually, it’s the first reason IMO.

        2. Jeremy

          Chance – or she has beliefs/values around sex that prevent her from acting quickly, no matter how aroused by you she is.   Rollo claims that a woman will break all the rules to have sex with a man when she is aroused, and will create all sorts of rules to not have sex with a man who does not arouse her.   But there is a 3rd option – she obeys the rules to SHOW the man that she values him, and herself.

        3. KK

          “But there is a 3rd option – she obeys the rules to SHOW the man that she values him, and herself”.

          That’s it! Thank you, Jeremy! : )

        4. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Rollo claims that a woman will break all the rules to have sex with a man when she is aroused, and will create all sorts of rules to not have sex with a man who does not arouse her.

          There is some truth to this. Certainly not for every woman, but there we go with the idea of the body turning on the mind.

        5. Chance

          Perhaps, Jeremy.   Nothing’s impossible.   However, given your commentary surrounding this subject, I get a strong impression that you want to believe that this is true.

        6. Jeremy

          Ha ha, I DO want to believe it’s true, Chance, no doubt :). But I also have no question that it IS true….of some women.   And not of others.   You just can’t make assumptions across the board, though.   It’s totally ok if a man does not want to wait, and does not value a woman whose values tell her to wait.   That’s his prerogative, and frankly both would be better off with other people.

        7. Chance

          Jeremy, I didn’t mean for that to come off as flippant as it appeared.   You could be right, no doubt, but I wasn’t trying to make an assumption across-the-board.   I was just relaying my experience.   I haven’t dated any women (that I’m aware of) who heavily value waiting for sex:)

           

          That said, better I think it would be for a man to not concern himself with a woman’s past, or what she values in this regard, because it seems to me that the potential to feel worse about yourself or your partner outweighs the potential to feel better.

    4. 27.4
      Marika

      Much appreciated, Shaukat. Your opinion, that is. In terms of the apology, it’s all good. I always knew you were one of the good ones 🙂

       

  8. 28
    Jeremy

    @Shaukat, you might be right.   @Marika, I re-read the long comment I posted yesterday and regretted it.   It was a hard day, and I think I wasn’t thinking clearly.   So if I could delete it, I would.   And I’d say this instead:

     

    Insecurity is probably the heart of this issue.   YAG and I disagree on most things, but one thing we have in common is the experience of being in a marriage where a spouse unilaterally decided to stop having sex, yet continued wanting to remain married, reaping benefits without giving in return. People in that situation feel angry, hurt, and above all, used.   Used because they find themselves acquiescing to the priorities of another person without having their own needs met, in the hopes that the situation will go back to the way it was.   You hope it’s a phase.   You hope that it’s just her – that maybe she just isn’t that sexual of a person, but that you can work on it together, so you put in a hell of a lot of work.   To then discover that the person is not, in fact, sexually inhibited with other men, just with you, would be devastating.   It did not happen that way with me, but it did with other men I’ve spoken to.   It can be as devastating as a woman living with a man for years only to have him refuse to marry her and jump into marriage with the next woman he meets.

     

    So at the end of the day, I think what matters is the quality of the relationship in the present, as many of you have written.   If the present is good, the past should not matter.   If the present is not good, and you are looking for the reason why, the past can matter very much (though not always).   We should work on our insecurity, as Marika correctly stated.   And we should work on relationships that are worth saving, as I’ve stated many times.   But we should also recognize when relationships should not be saved and not make ourselves crazy.

     

    And that’s all I have left to say about this.

    1. 28.1
      Marika

      Thank you Jeremy.  I understand 🙂

      I hope things keep going from strength to strength with your wife.

    2. 28.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Jeremy

      YAG and I disagree on most things, but one thing we have in common is the experience of being in a marriage where a spouse unilaterally decided to stop having sex, yet continued wanting to remain married, reaping benefits without giving in return. People in that situation feel angry, hurt, and above all, used.

      I believe that you just hit the nail squarely on the head with respect to my lack of desire to be in a relationship.   It was a miserable experience.   Being alone is much easier.   I cannot be bitter against my ex for doing it.   It appears to be a common trait with women.   Some women stop putting their marriage first after they achieve their meta-goals (often a house and children), and I have no desire to re-roll the dice hoping that I do not end up in the same situation.

      1. 28.2.1
        Jeremy

        I know it hurts.   I resolved the problem years ago, yet still find myself dealing with the demons in my head – the ones that developed then and refuse to leave entirely.   Part of the reason I come here is to remind myself that I have moved beyond it, have risen above it.

         

        When a person loses their meta-goal, they don’t always lose interest in sex.   Sometimes they continue to want sex, even though it is a hollow experience for them.   They hope that if they have enough sex, somehow they will find the person who can restore meaning to sex – make it be the way it was.   But the problem isn’t the partner, it’s the self – the lack of the original goal.   Because if someone’s original goal was validation and emotional connection and  they get that goal blasted out of them by a traumatic experience, they might substitute a goal of novelty or domination….but those will never be their true meta-goals.   The experience will always ring hollow.   And they will seek their original goal subconsciously while seeking other conscious goals.

      2. 28.2.2
        Marika

        You’re constantly on about this alpha / beta thing, so which sounds more ‘beta’ to you:

        A man who knows what he wants & goes for it, not letting anything (including his own fears and insecurities) get in his way, or

        A man who can’t make a decision, complains incessantly, doesn’t take responsibility for his own life & decisions & is threatened by the past?

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          I know what I want, and that is to be in as complete control of my life as is humanly possible.    I have owned my failures.   I have learned from my mistakes.

          When I was a small child, I put my hand on a hot iron while my mother was not looking.   The result was a seriously wicked burn after iron came down on me.   I never placed my hand on hot iron again after that day.   Commitment is like a hot iron with faulty wiring in that you never know when it is going to burn you, and if it does, it makes a hot iron seem like nothing.

          As far as being threatened by a woman’s past, I never said that I was threatened by a woman’s past.   What I said is that I am not effectively paying full price for what the guy before me purchased at a discount.   We are talking about bi-model behavior where a woman continues choose between having NSA sex with some guys while making others wait.   The man who waits in this context is a fool, a chump as someone else put it.   He lowers his own value by paying full price for what was recently sold at a fire sale price.   It woman wants a quality guy to wait, she needs to make all men wait; otherwise, she lowers her value.

      3. 28.2.3
        Theodora

        I comment on the discussion below about ‘being threatened by the past’ because I can’t find the Reply option:

        They like to move the discussion on the realm of ‘insecurities’ and ‘being threatened by a woman’ s past’ because then it’s easier to accuse the man of having issues and to blame him for not getting over them.

        But that’s not the point. The point is that a man who follows the traditional dating script of properly courting a woman while waiting for sex when she didn’t put these de conditions for other men is a fool. Not because he’s insecure, but according to a general human trait of self-preservation: nobody likes being duped. Nobody wants to buy cheap drinks at the price of luxury French wine.

        This is so clear that I don’t even know what this debate is about. The bad faith and double standards are almost sickening. You don’t have to be a man to see this (as they accuse me of being).

        1. Marika

          Are you having a nervous breakdown because every ‘other’ woman here happens to disagree  with you, Theodora?

          You have a right to your opinion, whoever you are, but the vast majority of women commenting see it differently. So, you can be ‘sickened’ if you like, or you can accept that this blog is largely out of step with your views. As evidenced by Evan referring to you as WGTOW 😉

    3. 28.3
      Nissa

      I’m sorry that happened to you, Jeremy. I used to think that, that only happened back-in-the-day…until I talked to my sister, who has special rules about when to have sex with her husband. WTF? And when my marriage started to fall apart…and my husband refused to have sex with me for at least the last year of my marriage. I was going nuts, because I am not a person to step outside of my marriage. I actively wanted my husband and was rejected with no discussion of why. So, yes, it’s terrible. And it was awful when I realized that it wasn’t just because he was unhappy in general and drinking in general. But I still think that anyone, man or woman, who chooses that as a long term strategy is making a poor choice.

      1. 28.3.1
        Jeremy

        For most it’s not a choice though, that’s my point.   For most it is a subconscious reaction to a goal or lack thereof.   A desire for control.   A way to even the power balance.   A lack of arousal.   A lack of comfort.   Which one is it? – The person doesn’t know!   And when asked, will likely make something up and then believe it – and it will sound really, really plausible.

         

        I can’t tell you how long it took me, and how much frustration it took me, to understand that people make stuff up and believe it, so as not to have to introspect too much.   Once you realize that, so much becomes clear.

  9. 29
    Theodora

    Evan,

    Ayn Rand was smart and logical, but not at all heartless. She was extremely intense and passionate in her life and thinking, like a female Nietzsche, with whom she had many similarities.

    What I find really heartless is the idea that we can use different people for different purposes and applying different standards according with our wants and needs in different stages in our life, and those people cannot even refuse this injustice for fear of ‘judging’ us. The much maligned ‘alpha f*cks beta bucks’ is a reality and men have every right to refuse the offer when they encounter it.   Anyway, what started this discussion is one commenter (YAG) stating that he wants to know and is able to find out when women play this game because then he wants to leave or downgrade to casual the relationship. What is wrong with that?

    The equivalent for women (because men and women are different. As it’s stated on this blog, men look for sex and find love, women the other way around) would be a man telling me: ‘I don’ t celebrate Valentine’s Day, I think it’s a stupid Hallmark holiday. Yeah, I used to celebrate it with a previous girlfriend, I took her out, bought her flowers and chocolate, but you know, I wanted different things in different stages in my life. I did a bit of personal growth meanwhile’.

    This is the female equivalent of beta bucks. And I would have every justification in the world to leave him right then and there.

     

    1. 29.1
      Gala

      Theo: for somebody claiming to be a woman living in Eastern Europe, your knowledge of American manosphere slang, cultural references (i.e. “Hallmark holiday”) and your overall command of English language is simply amazing. Perfect placement of articles, which don’t exist in Slavic languages, is truly rare for a non-native speaker. Amazing. You should take it as a compliment, lol.

      1. 29.1.1
        Theodora

        Thanks.

        My native language is Romanian which is a neo-Latin language like Italian and Spanish. When I hear a Slavic language I don’t understand a word but I can watch an Italian movie and understand most of it without having studied the language.

        1. Gala

          Sure, whatever you say 🙂 a quick tip: if you really want to impersonate a foreigner convincingly, you should introduce some errors into your English. Especially if you’re going for someone who’s not actively speaking the language (ie lives abroad). If you want to impersonate a woman, you should limit your use of red pill slang. Just saying. So far you have fooled no one.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Gala,

          Ha!   I pointed out  above that Theo uses “we” to include her(him)self with the men, but never the women.   Next original comment from Theo s/he “we’d” with women.   I think we’re teaching good troll technique here 😉

          For someone who is obsessed with double standards, it’s interesting that one of their heroes, Ayn Rand, railed against government social benefits, yet signed herself up for social security and medicare when they hit that age.

           

        3. Theodora

          To GoWiththeFlow below:

          I am not obsessed with the double standards, on the contrary, a couple of women here were eager to bring immediately   the predictable ‘sexual double standards’ as a response to the legitimate question what is the point of traditional courting with women who had sex without courting. Because wanting the benefits of both traditional courting and sexual liberation is a double standard in itself so I pointed out the inconsistency.

          Also, I’ve never said that Ayn Rand is one of my heroes (how did you get that???). I just felt that it’s a bit unfair to describe her as heartless and I tried to explain why.

          Also, I wonder what will you use against me when you will be convinced that I’m indeed a woman from Eastern Europe. Will you move to ‘male identified’ and ‘internalized patriarchy

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          Theo,

          “I wonder what will you use against me when you will be convinced that I’m indeed a woman from Eastern Europe. Will you move to ‘male identified’ and ‘internalized patriarchy”

          LOL!   My arguments against your consistently one-dimensional, stereotypical misogynistic attitudes   and arguments is based on the ridiculousness and banality of said arguments, not on your claimed gender or national origin.   But keep throwing out  those really cool terms you learn in the manosphere and I’m sure even more people will question your gender.

        5. Callie

          GWTF – How in the world he knows such personal details about the women he dates, I have no idea.

          He has explained how. He creates a false sense of intimacy to manipulate them into revealing such personal details before they otherwise might so that he can judge them. One of the many reasons  why I have little pity for him despite the empathy I do have.

  10. 30
    Sum Guy

    I’m curious on how the women here view hearing about a man’s sexual past.

    Not in the sense that he struts it out to brag about it, but rather when there is a general conversation (one the woman initiated) about pasts, partners, things you have tried.   Is there anything you in particular would not want to hear, or at least hear yet, if you’ve only been exclusive with him for couple months?

    1. 30.1
      Alex

      @Sum Guy

      I wouldn’t want to be outright compared to another woman. Ex: “You know, the girl I dated last was hotter/sexier/smarter/whatever than you” (I assume men don’t want this either)

      I also wouldn’t want to hear that he’s still hung up on someone else or hoping to win someone else back.

      That’s about it, though. As long as it’s kind of generic ex: “oh, I’ve done xyz before and it was fun” then I have no problem with talking about past experiences. Although, I do think keeping mentions of other partners to a minimum is best for both men and women, especially in the beginning.

      1. 30.1.1
        Sum Guy

        Alex

        i agree.   I don’t ask about past partners and really do not want to know until a relationship has been going on for some time, like a year, and even then

        it’s never good to compare since I won’t lie about it, yet if someone is great and it is there with the best I ever had, I’ll say it.   Don’t think women believe me though

        i ask here for viewed because it seems very common I get asked about past partners and what they were like, I’m not embarrassed or up tight about it but feel nothing good will come of such a conversation

        but I’ve been very lucky

        so I do keep it general as I can

    2. 30.2
      Callie

      You know I’ve been thinking a lot about that since this conversation started, and I think that part of the reason I am so boggled by the general attitude by most of the guys here towards a woman’s past is that I truly don’t really care about a man’s sexual past at all (or a woman’s either for that matter, but I’m not interested in women romantically).

      I think I’ve said this before here, but my BF has been with a lot of women. He had a few long term relationships but between them was totally the ONS kind of guy. And I knew all this before he even asked me out because we were friends. I suppose I did have a small concern when he did whether  he wanted a LTR like I did, but I gave it a shot to find out. Turned out he was ready for one and it’s been great. So I guess I’m cool knowing number or partners etc early on.

      I’ve also dated men who were bisexual. I’ve dated men with various kinks. And I knew most of these things up front as well.

      I think I honestly want to hear things as soon as possible so I can make an informed choice. I really don’t judge people for their sexual proclivities so long as they are consensual. The most important thing is are we on the same page with what we want out of a relationship. The rest is more curiosity.  And I mean, the more upfront one is about one’s past and what one has liked and not, the more fun you can have as a couple using that information to your benefit 😉 .

      1. 30.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Callie

        How would you feel if you were seriously into a guy who you wanted to commit, but was non-committal only to discover that the woman before you obtained commitment with little effort?   I guarantee that you would start to question what is so wrong with you that he would commit so easily to his previous girlfriend, but not you.   I have had women ask me this question when I would not commit.   A woman who seeks commitment from a man often wants to know how long it took him to commit in previous relationships, and will use it against him if he takes longer to commit to her.   This difference comes down to what Jeremy mentioned about women valuing commitment while men value sex.     Women want a commitment that has value.   Guys want sex that has value.

        1. Alex

          @YAG

          I think I’m starting to understand exactly what your issue is here. You feel bad because a woman thinks another guy is “sexier” and therefore wants to have sex sooner and without commitment. (Is this not what being bi-modal is? Have sex right away with the hot ones, make the ugly ones wait?)

          I guess I can relate…it might be disappointing to learn that a guy was really sure about another girl and is kind of dragging his feet with me. But the difference is that as long as he wants to commit at some point soon, then I wouldn’t take this personally. If he doesn’t want to commit at all I might be a little more hurt.

          The problem here though, is that you’re setting yourself up to feel bad. You can’t compare yourself to others no matter what. Being hurt by some people is the price of dating. You seem to take the stance that you would commit to a woman but only if she climbs your crazy-high emotional wall first and has never been more attracted to anyone else in her life. I mean, you’ve even dumped women after a long time of “creating false intimacy” because you learned they may have been “bi-modal” in the past. But were these women not really into you? Weren’t they happy to be dating you? Why throw that away? To punish them for once being”bi-modal”?

          I know you’ll probably follow this up with “oh no, I don’t feel bad, I’m just illustrating a generic man’s feelings,   for the blog” But, hell, I’m trying.

        2. Gala

          YAG: this is a very common situation and I have personally been in this position several times. It did not make me feel insecure or question “what’s wrong with me”. Why would it? It made me realize the guy wasn’t that into me and walk away. Commitment is not something a guy “gives” to you, it is something that you exchange equally. You both commit to each other. My commitment is just as valuable as his, if he doesn’t want what I have to give, and is not giving me what I need, what is the point? Of course, I am assuming that by commitment you mean something more serious than sexual exclusivity (which should be negotiated fairly soon into a relationship)

        3. Kenley

          I feel very lucky because at the age of 53, I no longer compare myself to other women.    So, if I am with a guy I like and we are getting along and treating each other the way we both want to be treated — in the bedroom and out — I don’t care about what he did with other women.   I don’t care how fast he committed, I don’t care if he had a gazillion one night stands.   I also realize that it is kind of crazy to expect people to act exactly the same way with every person they are dating.    Different people bring out or trigger different things is us.   So to expect that we are exactly the same is expecting people to not be human.    I don’t beat myself up for being human and I don’t beat men up for being human either.

           

        4. Callie

          YAG – You’ve framed this incorrectly. You are saying I’m with someone non-committal. But in the sex example the person eventually has sex, just later on. So I need to have the thing I want in order for the comparison to work.

          The  correct comparison is being with someone who has committed to me after, say, six months, and then learning he committed fully to someone before me after three. If I’m getting commitment, and I trust my partner, and he loves me as much or even more as the three month woman, I really don’t care if some other woman at some other point got commitment from him sooner. There are so many reasons that that is possible: he was young and foolish and just went for it before he was ready, he’s got a longer checklist now that he knows what he wants, he’s got more stuff on his plate and needs to really consider commitment more these days than in the past. Heck maybe he liked me even more than the other woman and was scared how vulnerable that made him feel so he put off opening up that way.

          Now. If the reason revealed was that he loved her more than me and is settling for me, then yeah, there goes the relationship. I don’t want to be with someone pining over the one that got away. But I never said that dudes shouldn’t feel hurt if the woman tells him that she is settling for him and that’s why she had him wait for sex. I only ever said that there are MANY reasons a woman might wait vs jump right in, and not all of them are about being less attracted to the dude. And to jump to the conclusion without having a conversation about it, without actually knowing the reason is fallacious and illogical. If however that IS the reason. Then you need to decide if you want to handle that or not. And you are well within your rights to not want that.

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Alex

          I think I’m starting to understand exactly what your issue is here. You feel bad because a woman thinks another guy is “sexier” and therefore wants to have sex sooner and without commitment. (Is this not what being bi-modal is? Have sex right away with the hot ones, make the ugly ones wait?)

          First off, the maneuver rarely happens to me these days because I make my intentions known upfront; however, a woman did attempt to pull the “I am just attempting to protect my heart” maneuver on me recently to get me to see only her and I balked.   We talked off and on for a month before meeting, so I was able to glean a lot of information before meeting.   She continues to call and send photo and non-photo texts, but I have zero interest in seeing her.   I am hoping that I do not have to block her.

          I am not comparing myself to others at his point in my life.   I just refuse to pay full price for a something that another man recently received at a fire sale price.   Paying full price does not increase a woman’s value to me if it is built on the false pretense that she is worth it (a special snowflake).   I am willing to pay full price if, and only if, all men have to pay full price (a true special snowflake).

          By the way, it does not take much effort to create false intimacy.   That is why it is called false intimacy.   True intimacy takes time an effort.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @Callie

          There are so many reasons that that is possible: he was young and foolish and just went for it before he was ready, he’s got a longer checklist now that he knows what he wants, he’s got more stuff on his plate and needs to really consider commitment more these days than in the past. Heck maybe he liked me even more than the other woman and was scared how vulnerable that made him feel so he put off opening up that way.

          Why do women keep attempting to frame this discussion as a distant past versus present argument?   We are talking about the last guy a woman dated, not someone she date when she was much younger.     A woman cannot give one man a rapid green light while making another man wait, and not expect the guy who had to wait to balk if he has options.   I am sorry ladies, but that screams, “she is just not that into me” to a guy.     That may not be your intention, but it is the message a man receives.   I do not see why it is so difficult for the female commenters on this blog to understand.   You are here to learn how to have better relationships.   Well, here is a big clue.   You can choose to use this information to your advantage, or you continue to fight it.   One thing is for certain is that more men will have this response than not.

        7. Alex

          @YAG

          Hey, if that’s really how you feel then that’s cool.Personally, if I really wanted something I wouldn’t care if it had been on sale at some point before – I would just buy it.

          Or rather, have a couple discussions about our ultimate goals and, given that those lined up, I would just buy it.

          By the way, how soon  in a relationship do you know what a woman did with the last guy? What if she slept with both of you one the second ate but yourtwo dates were spaced farther apart? Could there ever be a mitigating factor to make you consider dating her? What would it be? The rest of the guys on this blog seem to think circumstances matter in these situations. I’m inclined to agree with them.

        8. Jeremy

          @Alex, “or have a discussion about our ultimate goals and see if those lined up.”   Agreed.   Assuming, of course, that both of the individuals in question had the insight to know what they were talking about in such a conversation, which is by no means a given – even though they are each talking about themselves.

        9. Callie

          YAG – dude. If what you were saying was true, sure we could learn from it. A sad lesson to be sure about appealing to men’s fragile egos instead of men learning to get over irrational fears. But a lesson nonetheless. But male posters  here have already disproved that all men think like you, so I know that I at least don’t really feel the need to take your word as gospel.

          I also find it amusing that you think you are providing a service here to the women posting. That out of the goodness of your heart you are letting women know what men like you think and if therefore they want a man like you they need to follow your advice. As if all these women on this site are thinking to themselves, “Man I really want a guy like YAG.”

          If you teach us anything, YAG, quite frankly, it’s not to trust men. It’s to assume that the man who we feel we are getting to know on an intimate level  is actually “faking intimacy” to find out if we fucked someone sooner than them. It’s to assume that the man asking questions about our life actually has already done a large  investigation into our personal affairs. It’s to assume that the man who is lovely when you are lovely, will disappear the moment you want to share something that is slightly complicated and emotional. And it’s to assume that all his trappings of gentlemanliness, are just that. And that a man is more concerned with who has control in the relationship than an actual relationship.

          Fortunately this is all happening on Evan’s site, where we therefore know you are not representative of all men at all. Where we meet other men in comments who join in Evan’s ranks to help prove likewise. And so we can know that we need not worry ourselves about  men in general, just men like you.

          So again, I’m not sure what it is you think you’re actually teaching anyone.

        10. Alex

          @Callie

          *High five*

          I actually did learn quite a bit from YAG – you can’t be cynical, mistrustful and negative if you want good people to want to be around you more.

          And work out your own shit on your own time. It’s no one else’s responsibility to dispel your own fears and insecurities.

        11. Yet Another Guy

          @Callie

          So again, I’m not sure what it is you think you’re actually teaching anyone.

          Well, when it happens to you, and it will happen to you given enough time, think about what I have written.   I can assure you that I represent the majority of men, not the minority.   The majority has no desire to post sites like EMK because they do not want women to know how they feel about these issues.   They prefer that a woman have to pry it out one painful layer at time.

          As far as to performing a background search on a person, that is par for the course where I live when it comes to meeting someone from online.   Everyone on the dating sites knows that court records are online.   Almost every women that I have met from an online dating site has asked for my surname.   Why? So she can Google and case search me. For example, most women know if a man is lying about being divorced because his divorce case information is online.   If she does not know he is lying before the first date, she will know shortly thereafter.   I have reached the point where I offer my surname without a woman asking for it because I know the request is coming, and I know why it is being requested.

        12. Selena

          @Callie

          ”  As if all these women on this site are thinking to themselves, “Man I really want a guy like YAG.”

          I think most of the women on this site are thinking quite the opposite!

          He sounds like a great match for Theo(dora) though. Maybe we should chip in and send YAG to Romania. 🙂

        13. Callie

          YAG –

          You have admitted you do detective style searches not mere googling, and you have also admitted that you have nothing of yourself online for a woman to whom you have given your last name to find. You have admitted to manipulating women to find out private information they would otherwise not disclose without a level of trust and intimacy (which giving your last name is a part of, knowing it will make them think you have nothing to hide, when the reality is you hide everything). But fine, I’ll concede,  women do google searches too. The fact that  of all the things I listed THAT was the one you felt you needed to defend yourself on says pretty much everything.

          As to the rest, well, I’m not really that worried.  If indeed you are right about my future, you bitter  biased dishonest manipulative woman  hating person you, then while disappointed, I still will never take your advice. For being alone or spending time with friends and family and pets will be FAR more satisfying than ever in a million years taking your advice to land a man such as yourself.

          In conclusion: still don’t need your lessons.

        14. Callie

          I think most of the women on this site are thinking quite the opposite!
          He sounds like a great match for Theo(dora) though. Maybe we should chip in and send YAG to Romania.
          Selena – Definitely. Though I will admit, it scares me a little. The one thing we can give credit to YAG for is that he’s at least ending “relationships” with women the moment he finds them not up to scratch. The fact is, many men like YAG will continue to use women even if they aren’t interested in them for power reasons, or sexual gratification reasons etc. So I do think there is one more lesson to be learned and that’s to watch carefully for the YAG red flags. I imagine a big one is a man who very happily gives you his last name and you can find nothing of him online.

          And you know, that matchmaking just might work . . .

        15. Yet Another Guy

          @Callie

          I imagine a big one is a man who very happily gives you his last name and you can find nothing of him online.

          I can assure you that my first name paired with my surname are the keys to the Kingdom with respect to information on me.    I am one of the easiest people in the world on which to collect public information.   My grandfather Americanized my surname in such a way that it is unique to my family.   Within five minutes, a woman can have where I have lived for the last thirty years, where I work, my work telephone number and e-mail address, my naval service dates and duty stations, and even my daughter’s Facebook pages.   Yes, as creepy as it sounds, women have viewed my daughters’ Facebook pages.   I never go that far.   If you think that I am the only person who is searching public records for information on his/her dates, you are naive.

        16. Yet Another Guy

          @Callie

          You have admitted you do detective style searches not mere googling, and you have also admitted that you have nothing of yourself online for a woman to whom you have given your last name to find.

          You are paraphrasing what I wrote. What I said is that I usually do not need a woman’s surname to find her information.   There are times when I need it (like when she is lying about her age), but most of the time I do not.   Women request a surname as a condition of meeting, but do not offer one where I live; therefore, I am in my right to discover their surnames through any means necessary.     All of the information that I collect is from public sources.   I just know how to work search strategies and piece information together in such a way as to connect dots that are not apparent at first.   That is an important skill because women my age usually have had more than one surname.   For example, the extremely attractive woman that set off alarm bells had five surnames because she has been married and divorced four times.     I do not dig into non-public information to discover these facts.    There is enough information on each one of us on the Internet to paint a very good picture of the important parts of our histories.     What I am most interested in is how many times a woman has been married and her married names (you would be surprised at how many women do not want to disclose this information if they have been married more than one time), does she has any financial judgements or bankruptcies, and has she been charged with and convicted of a crime.     I believe that I have a right to know this information if I am going to get involved with a woman at my age.   My future could depend on it.

        17. Callie

          YAG – I can only go off the information you give us here and in the conversation that was about your searching histories that was had back in the day you said you worked very hard to keep any and all information about yourself offline. That a woman would find very little. If that was an exaggeration on your part to make a point, or  whatever, fair. But you did seem awfully proud of how hard it was to find anything about you online. Now you’re saying people can find your daughters’ facebook profiles, which I do think sounds a little creepy for them to do.

          I am still confounded by your need to defend this one thing and none of the rest, which I’ll be honest, of all your qualities is not the biggest deal. After all I even agreed back in that other conversation that some googling made sense. I took issue with what I saw as hypocrisy and game playing (giving a woman your last name knowing they wouldn’t find anything, but now you are saying there is stuff to be found and so those aren’t really issues anymore are they). Regardless . . . glad you have stuff online. I still find the degree to which you search intrusive, but since I think we have well established you and I will never date, I’m not worried about it personally.

          All my other issues with you still stand, and while you might attempt to take us down a road dissecting this one particular issue, I’m not going to be distracted from the others which are far bigger deals to me anyway.

          I will however, leave now because I have a shit ton of work to do and I haven’t had dinner yet. I am seriously procrastinating here, not good.

        18. Gala

          If there was ever a reminder that all that glitter isn’t gold, YAG is it. A 50-something in shape guy with a job may look pretty good on paper. It completely rotten on the inside. So, ladies, we should all be reminded to dig deeper, and that’s really what I am getting out of his posts.

        19. Jeremy

          Callie, Alex, Selena and Gala,   I hesitated before writing this.

           

          Years ago I went through some bitter times in my marriage and ended up on the manosphere.   I got there because when I entered search terms for the problems I was having, those sites came up.   I didn’t know much about those sites, and some of the writings there spoke to my insecurities.   I spent a couple of years there before my better judgment kicked in and I left in disgust.   Had any of you encountered me then, you likely would not have liked what I had to say – for good reason.   I’m not suggesting you should have liked what I had to say, nor am I suggesting that you should have dated someone like that.   But what I will humbly suggest is to try to empathize – not for the person’s benefit, but for yours.   Understand that a person who espouses these beliefs is often in pain.   Has gone through trauma and has emotional scars.   They are trying to cope, but not dealing in the best way, and are spinning out of control.   What they need is empathy to kindly guide them to a better path.   That isn’t our job – we don’t know those people, but it is a good skill to cultivate nevertheless.

           

          My brother is having trouble coping with anxiety over my sister’s ill health and his own genetic heritage.   He is acting miserably toward his wife, and she is acting miserably toward him in return, spiralling into a cycle of nastiness.   Callie – before you say it, you are right, it is my brother’s responsibility to pull himself out of his hole.   But those who love him can help him.   And the best way to help his is not just telling him to get to therapy, but offering empathy, understanding his mindset, and through that, using his mindset to communicate with him in a way that will resonate with him.

           

          I don’t agree with much that YAG has posted on this site, but I understand the pain that caused him to think the way he does.   It makes me sad that if I had been unable to cope, I too might have been Yet Another Guy in the same boat.   That doesn’t mean I should agree with him.   Doesn’t mean you should want to date him.   But I will offer logic and empathy and restrict my shaming and denigration.

        20. Selena

          @ Jeremy

          ”  But I will offer logic and empathy and restrict my shaming and denigration.”

           

          I’ve offered logic. YAG can’t/won’t see it.   Suggesting YAG would be a good match for Theo, was restricting shaming and denigration on my part . 🙂

          I do feel some empathy for him having an unhappy marriage for so long, but it’s difficult to muster much empathy for a man who writes negative posts about women over and over and over almost daily.   Why isn’t he writing on an MRA website where his “insights” would be appreciated?

          I’m with Callie: he isn’t teaching the women on this site anything beyond avoiding men who think like him.

           

        21. Callie

          Jeremy – I’m not without empathy. If you think I haven’t noticed that YAG had both an abusive wife and mother and is therefore a soul in pain, you don’t know me very well. (which . . . well you don’t, so fair 🙂 )

          What I do know is that  he is taking that hurt and lashing out at women who did nothing to him. He has decided he will always be in control and has yet to realise that he can never always be in control. The illusion of control makes him think he’s happy, but he’s not. It’s so clear from his posts here, it’s so clear from the “results” of his behaviour. He might date a lot, but he doesn’t like the women he dates. And he isn’t getting the chemistry he wants, nor really the kind of relationship he wants. He is clearly miserable, obvious in the choice of words he uses and how he engages with others here. His solution to his issues is not working, and instead of turning inwards and working on what the problems really are he is perpetuating abuse through his manipulative and dishonest behaviours (again, I do give him credit for after using all his varied techniques – beyond internet searchs [that’s seriously the least of his negative behaviours, which YAG also knows hence why he’s decided to make the conversation about that as a diversion tactic from the other more egregious items I listed] – ending things with women instead of continuing to take advantage of them).

          So while I am capable of understanding the source of the behaviour it doesn’t make me give him any more leeway.  I believe in personal responsibility and kindness. I also believe in logic. YAG places the blame of his issues on others, on women, he is unkind to them, and he creates the most convoluted irrational reasons why all women deserve to be treated such.

          I only hope he finds his way out of it like you did. Because it’s clear he’s miserable and in pain and that’s no way to live a life. But also because he’s causing pain in others. And that’s unkind and, I’m sorry, inexcusable.

        22. Jeremy

          Fair enough, Callie.   BTW, never thought you were without empathy, it’s just that sometimes we empathize more easily with some rather than others because we’ve found ourselves in similar situations.   You’ve pointed out my short-sightedness on occasion, and I appreciate it.   Because it’s good to consider that we might be wrong and take a second look at our thoughts sometimes.   And there were times when I did that, and realized you were right.   And other times when I realized I was  😉

        23. Yet Another Guy

          @Selena

          I do feel some empathy for him having an unhappy marriage for so long, but it’s difficult to muster much empathy for a man who writes negative posts about women over and over and over almost daily.

          If you believe that I am writing negative posts about women, then you have not seen me when I am passionate about something.   I am merely voicing my opinion, one that is held by many men that I know.   These men would not bother to post here because they shake their heads reading much of what is posted.

          With the respect to the topic that I first broached on this thread, I have reached the conclusion that women cannot understand its impact.   It was never about slut shaming.   Making one man wait while giving another rapid green light is a respect issue.     Women clearly do not see it as a respect issue.   I get that women do not get it, but that is what it is to a man, so do not get upset if a man does not agree with you, enough said on that topic.

          In my humble opinion, women who post to this blog appear to seek confirmation.     My problems aside, men generally do not think this way.   I have been a man my entire life.   I have had a lot of older, same age, and younger male friends, and not one has thought the way that women on this forum desire.   The men desired by many female commenters are unicorns,   men who can rapidly switch between masculine and feminine qualities in order to suit a woman’s needs.   A few of you will hit the lottery, but most of you will never meet such a man because they are few and far between.

          As far as to the manosphere, to be completely honest, I did not even know that it existed until I started to read this blog.   While I do agree with some of the stuff that is written, a lot of it is pure vitriol.   What I do agree with is the notion that modern women want to have their cake and eat it too.   They want the upside of the old without its downside.     If I were a woman, I would more than likely want it too.   However, to not acknowledge that men have given without receiving anything in return is being disingenuous.   That is the root cause of the angst.

        24. Callie

          Jeremy – I totally appreciate that, and I do appreciate people pointing things out to me where I might not have seen them. The thing with YAG though is that it is BECAUSE I have so much empathy for him that I have so little patience. Because I know of so many people, men and women alike, who have gone through extremely terrible things like he has,  who somehow manage to not be as hateful as YAG is. I cannot see his history as an excuse for his current behaviour, nor as a reason I should treat him with kid gloves. And the fact that he keeps saying hateful things about all women means he’s actually consistently and on a daily basis directly attacking me (I am a woman after all), my friends, my family, and the other female posters here. I feel no guilt then in being hard handed in return. He does not respect me at all. I at least give him some small benefit of the doubt. So in this case, while pointing for a need for empathy might have seem the correct course, maybe the advice you should offer me is to have less of it so I find him less offensive 🙂 .

           

          YAG – I cannot and will not acknowledge that. Just because you were married to a woman and raised by another woman who took and never gave, does not mean I do not give, does not mean other women do not give. And it certainly does not mean that men do not receive. It’s just not true. It might be sadly true in your world (there is something called confirmation bias and self fulfilling prophecy however too), but it is not in mine. It is not in Evan’s. It is not in so many people’s worlds. I am sorry it is such with you. I truly am. I will not deny your lived experiences, I will not deny that there are some men who are taken advantage of, and some women who want the impossible. But I can’t admit to some general fact about all women and all men that quite simply is not true. That you see that as disingenuous is your problem, not mine.  And of the two of us, I think there is only one who comes across  truly angst ridden.

        25. Jeremy

          Callie, “So in this case, while pointing for a need for empathy might seem the correct course, maybe the advice you should offer me is to have less of it so I find him less offensive 🙂”

           

          LOL, Callie, point taken.

        26. Nissa

          In YAG’s defense, I had to read a few posts before I realized that he is talking about a woman that is dating multiple men at one time, versus how soon she slept with someone in the distant past. But I didn’t realize that, because that’s not how I , or most of my friends, date. The majority of us are serial monogamist, one-man-at-a-time girls who seldom even have the opportunity to date multiple men in the same time frame. And even if they did, they worry about it enough that they don’t get sexual with guy #2 until they have decided if they want to continue with guy #1.

          So, no, I wouldn’t like it if a man did less for me than someone else he is dating. But I am also old fashioned enough, that I would say to him, Bless you for being honest. Let me know when you are truly single and we’ll give it a go. But as far as I’m concerned, if you don’t know if you want her or not – it means you do know you are ready to choose me. Which is all the information I need.

        27. Yet Another Guy

          @Callie

          I will not deny your lived experiences, I will not deny that there are some men who are taken advantage of, and some women who want the impossible. But I can’t admit to some general fact about all women and all men that quite simply is not true. That you see that as disingenuous is your problem, not mine.

          I do not know your country of origin, but I am old enough to have experienced the difference between pre and post-women’s liberation.   Granted, I was a child when the women’s liberation movement took hold, but my mother was not a liberated women.   I believe you may not be able to see what men gave up because you are more than likely too young.   If that is true, you have only read about it in textbooks that generally make the old way we lived look bad, but there were benefits to society as a whole.   Men truly had it much better before women’s liberation.   They had well-defined roles, and to ignore that reality is to ignore the truth.   Do I want to return to those days? No, divorce was significantly more difficult in those days.   I would have been stuck in a bad marriage until “death do us part.”   What I want is for men to be liberated too.   Maybe I am wrong, but a lot of women on this forum do not want men to be liberated.   They want traditional male masculinity/producerism coupled with modern feminism, which is masculine.   Can both worlds co-exist?   In special cases, yes; however, from seeing how much more feminine millennial men are compared to their fathers, I do say that the days of masculine men are numbered, at least in the United States.   The Washington Post published an article about the millennial generation’s struggle to define masculinity last year.

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/05/26/the-stark-difference-between-millennial-men-and-their-dads/?utm_term=.5a04321bc98d

          Here are two interesting quotes:

          “Masculinity is tricky for guys,” a 22-year-old respondent wrote. “You want to be respectful and a gentleman but that somehow gets seen as nice-guy and pushover. Finding the balance of being an alpha male gorilla and a decent human is sometimes hard since everyone wants to label us as one thing.”

          “For heterosexual men, women are independent – and that’s a great thing  – but it may come with some things us guys need to work through,” he said. “Like   the understanding of sharing chores, understanding that our significant others might have long work trips now and a new definition of female sexuality.”

          The above is to what I am referring when I mentioned that denying that men have given without receiving is to deny reality.   These young men would not be lost if that were not so.   They have lost what it means to be a man via circumstances beyond their control; therefore, they have to redefine it.   What did they receive in turn?   From my personal experience, the answer to that question is “nothing” because men are still expected to be capable of being the primary producer in a family in order to be considered a good catch.   That being said, I guess that this reality will fall on deaf ears.

        28. GoWiththeFlow

          Hey Jeremy, ( and YAG, Alex, Callie, et.al.)

          I think it’s obvious to most that YAG’s expressed feelings, attitudes, behavior, and theories are the result of a deep well of pain.   I have consciously refrained from commenting on his posts where he expresses how painful his marriage was.   What goes through my head when I read them is usually along the lines of “Why don’t you look inward and work on understanding yourself? But, I know (as I’m sure as a physician you do) that telling someone who smokes that cigarettes are bad for them and they should stop, or that a diabetic should examine their habits and work harder at their diet or they may lose their sight, rarely snaps anyone into self-care mode.   In a crazy way it’s less painful to live with the pain they have than to make the effort and do the work it will take to get past it.

          So in that way I can empathize with YAG–change is painful and hard.   Now for the BUT. . . as a woman in his age cohort, I meet quite a few men like YAG.   I don’t doubt him when he says he talks to other men and they are out there in significant numbers.   Their overlying problem is a lack of true, deep insight into themselves which they substitute a kind of brash I-have-it-all-figured-out bravado for.   It’s not too hard to weed these guys out.   A friend describes them as men who are seeking a woman to do the penance for their ex-es’sins.   So why I can see they are in pain, I am frustrated by their behavior.   They are total downers to be around.

          About a year ago, a wonderful man came into my life in an unexpected way.   He too suffered through a sexless and emotionally abusive marriage that was not easy to leave since there were children involved.   It would have been very easy for him to hold his ex entirely responsible for his misery.   And she truly has some mental and emotional issues.   Instead he went into therapy and did a lot of other work to understand himself and how aspects of his psyche led him to be with her, and how he could have a healthier relationship in the future.

          Not once, have I ever felt that this man holds me or womankind as a whole, responsible for his ex-wife’s behavior.   And he’s not seeking the unicorn out there “that isn’t like all other women.”   He realizes that most women are good people, though the majority of them won’t be compatible with him for a LTR.

          The contrast between how the walking wounded man and the wounded but recovered man treat the women they meet is huge.   And we treat them differently as well.   My friend, I just want to hug and consciously make sure he is never without the affection, respect, and affirmation that he was cruelly deprived of in his marriage, but that he so deserves.   Men like YAG I just want to avoid.

        29. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG,

          Holy crap!   What did men receive?   The ability to have sex without marriage with multiple women.

          If it wasn’t for the feminist movement, you wouldn’t be in a position to judge women on the basis of how fast they sleep with you versus a previous boyfriend.

        30. GoWiththeFlow

          Nissa,

          What YAG is talking about is serial monogamy, or how quickly a woman sleeps with the guy she was with at some point more immediately prior to him.   Say within the past year.   So if she slept with one guy on date number two, but YAG had to wait until after date number 5, according to him, sex with her should be  cheap and he paid too high a price.

          How in the world he knows such personal details about the women he dates, I have no idea.   In reality, this may be more an exercise in online debating than behavior he can realistically engage in IRL.

        31. Callie

          YAG – I am totally boggled that the thing you think that has been taken from you is women not doing all the things for men nor being at their beck and call. Yeah, I guess from your POV that would look like you were losing something. I guess. I dunno. I’m actually jaw on floor right now. And honestly thank goodness the days of masculine men (as you define masculinity – that’s not my definition) are numbered as you say, how tedious to have to deal with people who define themselves by “manliness” instead of other qualities like kindness, intelligence, capability, and generosity.

          The strangest part to all this is that despite your assertions to the contrary women still give a lot. In fact there are studies that show that, despite what your quote from your 22 yearold poor dude who has to now wash his own dishes said, women are still doing the majority of household work AND holding down full time jobs AND doing the majority of child rearing. And none of this addresses the concept of emotional labour women perform about  which there have been many other studies done. So yeah, just because women are more independent now, doesn’t mean they ain’t doing shit. It’s like someone stops cleaning the toilet and suddenly they are accused of never giving only taking, when they are still scrubbing the tub, washing the windows, vacuuming the floors etc etc and so forth.

          As to the women who want traditional models while still reaping the benefits of contemporary feminism: if they can make it work, solid. But that’s not me. And again, since you seem to be saying “all women” my point is I am not like that and since I, a woman, am not like that I instantly disprove your “all women” theory. I don’t want a man to financially take care of me, I make more than my partner does currently,  on dates I’ve never liked it when a man paid. I don’t like getting flowers and I certainly don’t appreciate my chair being pulled out. On the other hand I DO appreciate it when my partner shows emotional vulnerability and I actually encourage it. I love that we can have heated debates as equals and even work together on projects, ask each other for advice. And I love that he truly listens to me when I’m down and need emotional support, offers advice when I need it, and just an ear  if that’s what I want. He isn’t bored or annoyed with me for daring to have emotions and wanting to share them. He’s in fact the kind of guy who the day after I’ve had a sad night will text me from work to keep my spirits up and let me know I’m awesome. And yes he can put up a set of shelves, but guess what, so can I (I know also how to use a variety of saws and other power tools).

          But I guess THIS reality will fall on your deaf ears. What if I told you I wasn’t the only woman who had a relationship of this kind with a man? I assume you wouldn’t hear that either. What if I told you my mom and dad (who are both older than you) have this relationship with each other? Nothing?

          Ah well. You will live in your reality, I in mine, and we shall go about our lives. I think mine’s a little more pleasant, but  I have to admit I don’t actually know you so I hope I’m wrong. I hope you’re happy with your life too. I really do 🙂 .

        32. Callie

          GWTF —  How in the world he knows such personal details about the women he dates, I have no idea.
          He has explained how. He creates a false sense of intimacy to manipulate them into revealing such personal details before they otherwise might so that he can judge them. One of the many reasons  why I have little pity for him despite the empathy I do have.

        33. Yet Another Guy

          @GWtF

          So if she slept with one guy on date number two, but YAG had to wait until after date number 5, according to him, sex with her should be  cheap and he paid too high a price.

          That is not what I wrote, but clearly how it was interpreted.   I was not parsing between date #2 and date #5.   What I meant by what I wrote is that if woman sleeps with guy #1 quickly in this scenario without making him commit (i.e., fire sale price) while making guy #2 commit (full price) before she sleeps with him, then I would balk if I was guy #2.     Clearly, women see this problem as one of protecting their hearts; however, all of the guys I know see it as a respect issue.   No self-respecting guy with options is going to settle for paying full-price in this scenario.   The only guys who accept being guy #2 in this scenario are guys who do not have options, and women generally do not want men without options.   They want to feel like they were chosen over other women.

          Like I mentioned earlier, if women think that I am so far out in left field on this one, propose exactly what I wrote to a random collection of men.   The result will shock you.

        34. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG,

          For some women it may be about protecting their heart.   Most women are taking their life one man and one relationship at a time.   With some men things progress faster.   You talk or see each other every day (for instance in class or through work) or you know them through mutual friends and that gives a man a certain credibility.   Other you interact with less often and things take longer.

          Also, realistically, most men are not going to ever know a woman’s history that in-depth in the beginning of a relationship.   So how much of of a problem is this for men and women IRL?   It’s like if I said I would never date someone who occasionally forgets to pay his credit card bill.   I may never know this information, and if I did, I’m sure its at a point where we have an established long term thing and that’s not nearly enough of a reason to leave.

          So I totally get how you feel.   I just think in the long term it hurts you just as much if not more than the women involved.   Sure, stick to the rules you need to be comfortable.   But those women aren’t doomed to a life of loneliness.   As some men have said they don’t  share your opinion on the matter.

          And that may be the crux of the  problem here.   The vibe I’m getting from you is that you think women are intentionally being malevolent and seeking to hurt men they are with, and that you think there should be some social censure or punishment for women who don’t behave the way you think they should.

        35. Yet Another Guy

          @Callie

          I am glad that you are happy with your man.   If you are happy with that kind of man, good for you.   I can assure you that a lot of American women want it both ways.     They want the traits that you rattled off along with traditional masculine traits for which you appear to have no use.

        36. Jeremy

          GWTF, I agree.   It’s funny, my wife is very close with my sister-in-law (my brother’s wife) and I am closer with my brother.   When the two have conflict (which is often), we each hear different stories – different versions of what happened and who is at fault.   And even though we both know that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, my tendency is to empathize with him and my wife’s tendency is to empathize with her.   It’s a fallacy we both need to work on, but it illustrates a broader problem.

           

          Because when I hear you and the other ladies here complaining about the men you meet, it is eye-opening to me.   Because I hear men complaining about women and what good guys they are, and my tendency is to believe them (on some level).

           

          I think it’s good that we have a forum like this one, where men and women can hear each other.   And even the more strident of the voices still provide perspective, if only for negative value.   Because when we live in an echo chamber, we can’t help but be influenced, no matter how broad-minded we think we are.

        37. Yet Another Guy

          @GWtF

          And that may be the crux of the  problem here.   The vibe I’m getting from you is that you think women are intentionally being malevolent and seeking to hurt men they are with, and that you think there should be some social censure or punishment for women who don’t behave the way you think they should.

          I do not believe that women are being malevolent.   I believe that it is a huge difference in what is valued.   I can understand how a woman can believe that a man should feel honored that she wants a commitment from him and not some random guy she bopped, but large proper subset of guys do not see it that way.   Most guys are not seeking commitment when they date.   They are seeking sex.   Commitment is a side effect of chasing sex.   This difference can be demonstrated in how separated men and separated women are treated on dating sites. Separated women are pretty much accepted with open arms.   Most separated men will not secure a single date.   Attempting to find an answer to that puzzling area of social dynamics is what brought me to this blog.   It was this blog entry: https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-tips-advice/i-am-falling-in-love-with-a-man-who-is-finalizing-his-divorce-should-i-back-off-or-can-this-work-out/

          The reality is that separated women are accepted on dating sites because most men on dating sites are dating to have fun and possibly obtain sex.   If they find a woman with whom they want relationship, that is great.   On the other hand, most women join dating sites with the hope of securing an LTR.   That is why separated men are treated like pariahs.

        38. Alex

          @Jeremy – thank you for pointing out that the ultimate goal here is to have a little more empathy for the opposite sex. And for putting the brakes on some of the anger. Because, while I find YAG’s responses with straw women and deliberate misunderstandings to be infuriating, he is actually being quite clear, in broad strokes about something that is happening to a lot of men.

          He’s saying that some women behave in a way that makes him feel unwanted. Clearly his mother did that, his wife did that and some women he dates are evoking those same feelings. We can say all we want that humans are complicated and our behavior is not necessarily a reflection of how we feel about you, but in the end nothing on this blog is going to change anyone’s feelings about that.

          I think this whole discussion makes it really clear that when you’re dating a man, it’s very important to make him feel wanted. Be warm, open, accepting, affectionate. And then if he chooses to take tiny details out of context and get angry and hurt, well that’s his business. But at least most men will understand that you want to continue to get to know each other.

        39. Emily, the original

          GowiththeFlow,

          And that may be the crux of the  problem here.   The vibe I’m getting from you is that you think women are intentionally being malevolent and seeking to hurt men they are with, and that you think there should be some social censure or punishment for women who don’t behave the way you think they should.

          I guess it’s time we fess up about the Skull-and-Bones-like secret society of all women on this planet who meet up once a year to determine which men get sex right away and which ones are made to wait. The only way for a man to change his designation is to make a LARGE monetary donation to our organization.

        40. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          LOL!   Whenever one of our erstwhile manospherians (Thanks for the new term Theo!) starts regaling us with their theories on hypergamy, alpha fucks/beta bucks (not going to use the children’s phonics spelling), the cock carousel–and Oh Noes!–hitting THE DREADED WALL, I want to ask some of the women here if we should form our own  similarly structured internet kvetching group.

          Instead of taking a red pill, we can drink a fruity sweet pink cocktail with one of those miniature paper umbrellas in it.   First we establish that men are responsible for all of our problems, and they are either doing it on purpose with evil intent, or they are helpless  slaves to their own brain biology and are too daft to know it.   Then the research committee with cherry pick statements from published research that confirms what we believe.   We ignore the fact that the conclusions of most of these studies is a correlation was observed and further study is indicated, and instead claim this research proves our case.   When one of the researchers contacts us to ask us to quit misrepresenting his research, we will feign shock and tell him that we know his research better than he does.   The PC police won’t stop us!

          Our core belief will center around THE FACT that as teens and young adults, men ignore us Average Janes to chase the pretty cheerleaders and the hot sorority girls.   These hot but mean and crazy girls use men for free rides and free drinks at nightclubs and parties.   But they won’t sleep with them or want to be their girlfriends.   And then the guys come cry on our sympathetic shoulders.   We get friend zoned!

          At some point after the ravages of aging has taken it’s toll and their athletic prowess and hard bods are gone (at say. . . age 30?) they realize they need a uterus host to actually pro-create so they can vicariously live through sons who are destined to be NFL quarterbacks.   So they begin to pay attention to us AJ’s.   But only because they are desperate and no hot girls will have them.   Because they are with NFL quarterbacks.   Then once the children are born and their genes will march forward in history, the guys don’t want to maintain the joint checking account anymore and refuse to share household chores, buy Valentine’s Day cards, and change diapers.

          We won’t stand for this!   We will resolve not to date or marry any man who wouldn’t have paid attention to us back in the day.   They can’t have their fun when they are young and hard bodied, then come crawling to us after their athletic prowess is gone and they have man-boobs.   We aren’t worthless, they are!   In fact our SMV increases with age.   We are at our best at age 82 because wisdom and experience are THE most attractive qualities in women.   Everyone knows that.   Because research!   So we vow to only use men for free food, movies, and baubles.   Those who can do without, will go their own way and live men free lives.

          We are empowered!   We know the truth of taking  the pink drink!   Men will have to respect us and like us when we confront them with our, er, research and logic!   When  men tell us they don’t want anything to do with us because we are angry, bitter, and act like we hate them, we double down!   They better get with the program before it’s too late because they will be sorry when we are gone.   Civilization as we know it will collapse!   Don’t let this happen men!

        41. Selena

          That was a fun read Go With The Flow!

          Thanks for providing some humor in this sometimes  tedious discussion.   🙂

        42. Sum Guy

          GWTH

          like your parody, and agree the manosphere alpha/beta fixation is pretty hilarious (so beta 🙂 )

          but you do know there are women and organizations out there who do just this:

          “First we establish that men are responsible for all of our problems, and they are either doing it on purpose with evil intent, or they are helpless  slaves to their own brain biology and are too daft to know it.   Then the research committee with cherry pick statements from published research that confirms what we believe.   ”

          and have been for some time.

        43. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow,

          They can’t have their fun when they are young and hard bodied, then come crawling to us after their athletic prowess is gone and they have man-boobs.

          Speaking of man boobs, I had such hopes for Hilary had she won the presidency. I wanted her entire cabinet and staff to be men, all dressed in very short shorts, topless, and greased up. They would carry her, Cleopatra-style, to all her meetings and press conferences. Every morning she would measure their body fat. If they had gained half an ounce, they’d be fired. Once they hit 25, they’d be given a very generous, governmental severance package.

           

        44. Emily, the original

          GowiththeFlow,

          Our core belief will center around THE FACT that as teens and young adults, men ignore us Average Janes to chase the pretty cheerleaders and the hot sorority girls.  

          In all seriousness, you hit on a point I’ve been wondering about. Is this issue of women having sex sooner with hot (read: inappropriate, non-committal) men while making less appealing men wait and commit the same as men ignoring the “nice girls” who want to date them and become a girlfriend for the “hot, crazy” women who either won’t sleep with them because they’re chasing hotter men or who will but will use them until they land the men they really want, i.e. the quarterback on the football team?

        45. GoWiththeFlow

          Sum Guy,

          Oh yes, I’m aware there are female nihilists out there that advocate completely separating from men.   But I don’t know how organized they are.   I’ve never seen websites dedicated to this when I Google search relationship issues and Red Pill sites pop up along with sites like Evan’s Or Susan Walsh’s.   And I don’t seek them out.   Why would I?   I exist because of my dad, and my life is good because of my  relationships with my brothers, my men friends, and of course my two sons who, along with my daughter, are the light of my life.

          IMO, the real tragedy of the manosphere is that it doesn’t seem to do much to affect real positive change for men.   It takes men who are in pain and searching for answers and makes them angry and even more isolated than before.   Say what you will about feminists, but they made many women’s lives better by organizing and challenging laws and institutional practices that negatively affected women.

          Think what could happen if instead of focusing on how to “spin plates”, practice dread game, and refine and disseminate theories on hypergamy, this collective male energy was directed at changing actual laws and policy?   The overmedicating of young boys in school.   The fact that men don’t utilize the healthcare access they pay for and this shortens their lifespan.   Family court biases that work against fathers.   And I’m sure everyone here on the blog can come up with others.

          When I hear men talk about these issues, the assumption seems to be that they want attitudes to change and then legal and institutional change will flow from that.   What the women’s movement and gay rights movement showed was that oftentimes hearts and minds changed after the law and institutions were compelled to change.

        46. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily

          “Is this issue of women having sex sooner with hot (read: inappropriate, non-committal) men while making less appealing men wait and commit the same as men ignoring the “nice girls” who want to date them and become a girlfriend for the “hot, crazy” women who either won’t sleep with them because they’re chasing hotter men or who will but will use them until they land the men they really want. . .”

          I think it’s a pretty good corollary experience.   A while back there was a sub thread where the men talked about how it sucks to be the nice guy who gets friend zoned.   I have  spent  hours with a guy I was crazy about while he cried on my shoulder about the latest slight from Ms. Hottie-Pattotie, while inside I’m screaming “I’m sitting right here!   Why don’t you SEE me?”   So I commented that, “Hey guys I get it.”   And they insisted, no I don’t because being friend zoned is an exclusively male phenomenon.

          I do think that men and women do have some experiences that are unique or they have very different takes on some things.   But overall I think many of our experiences are similar.   we just want to hold onto our own grievances.

        47. Emily, the original

          GowiththeFlow,

          I have  spent  hours with a guy I was crazy about while he cried on my shoulder about the latest slight from Ms. Hottie-Pattotie, while inside I’m screaming “I’m sitting right here!   Why don’t you SEE me?”   So I commented that, “Hey guys I get it.”   And they insisted, no I don’t because being friend zoned is an exclusively male phenomenon.

          There’s not a woman on this planet who hasn’t experienced being in the friend zone at least once, and it sucks. Years ago, I had a huge crush on this one guy who told me I reminded him of his mother! I felt like saying, “Give me a minute to rip my uterus out and hand it over to you in a jar.”

        48. Yet Another Guy

          @GWtF

          The fact that men don’t utilize the healthcare access they pay for and this shortens their lifespan.   Family court biases that work against fathers.   And I’m sure everyone here on the blog can come up with others.

          Clearly, you have not watched Cassie Jaye’s documentary entitled “The Red Pill” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Pill) or visited the “A Voice for Men” website (https://www.avoiceformen.com/).   The documentary has little to do with the Red Pill Reddit or MGTOW.   I challenge any woman to sit through that documentary and not be affected.   Men do not ask for help because we are taught that asking for help is a display of weakness, and men are not allowed to show weakness.   It is difficult to undo decades of social programming.

        49. Gala

          @YAG re “The Red Pill” documentary.

          I did watch that film because it was free with amazon prime or netflix or one of those. Aside from the fact that it mainly speaks in cherry-picked anecdotes and is light on data, what the point GWTF is making stands: there’s a whole lot of whining and not enough of doing going on. If men want change, they should organize and effect change. The most ridiculous premise of the MRAs is by the way their attempt to pit men against feminists. Feminists are not oppressing these men, OTHER MEN are oppressing these men. Wake up, guys! Men make up the majority of legislature, judicial system and law enforcement. It is other men who create and refuse to repeal outdated marital laws, who apply bias in family courts, and who refuse to take your domestic violence complaints. Women/feminists don’t do it to you, you do it to you. (why? because men in the position of power tend to not don’t give a shit about anybody else – be that other men or women). At the core, there’s nothing that feminists fight for actually encroaches on the rights of men. It’s just not women’s/feminists’ job to fight your battles.

        50. GoWiththe Flow

          YAG,

          “Men do not ask for help because we are taught that asking for help is a display of weakness, and men are not allowed to show weakness.   It is difficult to undo decades of social programming..”

          Women were told for centuries that they weren’t intelligent enough and too soft to have any role outside of caring for children and the home.   And even then, husbands and fathers were head of the household.   The first women to break out of these strict roles were subject to ridicule and abuse.   The were considered agents of satan, evil and unclean.   There are echoes of those get-back-in-your-lane insults when men spit out  “career-woman” as an epithet., and refer to them as un-feminine, emasculating ball-busters.

          When I was in medical school, a professor asked how many students had a parent who was a physician.   Then he asked how many had moms who were physicians.   Five students still had their hands up.   The professor asked these students to talk to their moms about their experiences in med school and residency training.   The next week, the students relayed what they heard from their moms.   All of them were shocked.   While they knew their moms had been trailblazers (this would have been in the 1960s) and things weren’t easy for their moms, they never knew the specifics.

          One woman was brought into the Dean’s office the first day of school and in front of 5 older male administrators was asked to voluntarily leave since she was taking a spot away from a young man who deserved it.   They said she was only there because a wealthy widow benefactor of the school had threatened to withhold funding for a new lab if the school didn’t start admitting women.

          Another woman’s classmates had made a pact not to include her in anything and she went her whole first year without any one talking to her.   She studied by herself and spent her time at school hearing conversations around her but not being able to participate.

          Why do I share these stories?   Because making big social change is   very hard.   Being a trailblazer is particularly hard and they experience  real suffering and loss.   But someone has to do it or it ain’t happening.   If the women’s rights example is too problematic an example for men to follow, look at the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement for examples and inspiration.

          I have seen the AVFM website, and sadly, Elam has lost a lot of credibility because he let white nationalist and alt-right activists cross-pollenate his site and organization.   One of the KKK leaders arrested at Charlottesville has written articles on “rape hysteria” for AVFM.   This was part of a larger phenomenon in the manosphere.   Roosh started to ally with the alt-right, and then a prominent neo-nazi read his Bang (insert name of Eastern European country here) book and rejected Roosh saying he was a racial degenerate (he’s of Iranian and Armenian descent) who was “raping their women.”   Some early feminists pushed communists out of their ranks, and non-violent civil rights activists disavowed the militants who tried to align with them.

          Elam himself is not a very approachable or sympathetic person.   No “the opposition” doesn’t get to choose a movement’s leaders.   But people in the movement have to be aware of the fact they need to win a lot of people over and their leaders have to be able to build those bridges.   The early feminists had Betty Friedan who was a mother of 7 and a grandmother.   She made the case for women wanting to be in roles other than that of wife and mother, while still saying that those roles will always remain of prime importance to women.   Martin Luther King Jr. had a doctorate degree and was a pastor and preached non-violence to make change.   Edie Windsor, who recently passed, was a diminutive octogenarian with a Betty White vibe who had been with her late wife for over 40 years when she sued to end DOMA.

          Warren Farrell and Dr. Jerry Buss were two of the first men to write about the challenges men face.   They also have a lot of credibility with those in government and social institutions and with the general public.   They can talk about issues and back up their claims with scientific data.   And they do it without shaming and demonizing the people they ultimately need to win over.   They know how to generate understanding, sympathy, and empathy.   And that’s what a men’s movement will need to do.   It will take some brave trailblazers and inspiring competent leaders.

           

        51. Sum Guy

           

          Emily,
          Oh yes, I’m aware there are female nihilists out there that advocate completely separating from men.   But I don’t know how organized they are.”  
          I’ve come across them, less organizations, although there are those which aid and abet the nihilist vibe, but many psychology professionals. They are organized in that they are often strong advocates and lobbyist for certain laws, especially if you search legislative history.   Most of these laws are pre-2000, so it is hard to find through the internet alone the history (recall the internet as we know it really did not exist until the early 90’s and most states don’t make a habit of going back and scanning their legislative history)
          That’s beside the point though as Gala is right on this:
          Men make up the majority of legislature, judicial system and law enforcement. It is other men who create and refuse to repeal outdated marital laws, who apply bias in family courts, and who refuse to take your domestic violence complaints. Women/feminists don’t do it to you, you do it to you. (why? because men in the position of power tend to not don’t give a shit about anybody else — be that other men or women).”
          But Gala is incorrect on this (depending how you define feminism) in my view:
          At the core, there’s nothing that feminists fight for actually encroaches on the rights of men. It’s just not women’s/feminists’ job to fight your battles.”
          There are active organizations that call themselves feminist (rightly or wrongly) who actively work to ensure that biased and unfair laws and there application is not changed.   It’s everybody’s battle to fight for equality and against negative stereotypes.
          I do agree with you Emily largely on this:
          IMO, the real tragedy of the manosphere is that it doesn’t seem to do much to affect real positive change for men.   It takes men who are in pain and searching for answers and makes them angry and even more isolated than before.”
          I agree only largely as there are men’s movements that are seeking to effect positive change, that are all for equal pay for equal work and equality, they are largely seeking to address the inequality in the letter and application of the family laws and the negative stereotypes of men.  
          Say what you will about feminists, but they made many women’s lives better by organizing and challenging laws and institutional practices that negatively affected women.”  
          Agreed.   These days though what constitutes feminism is disputed.   As you noted, there are female nihilists and misandrist who call what they do feminism and any women who does not agree with them is brainwashed, or worse, and not a true feminist.    Then you get your misogynist men who equate all feminism with these female misandrists.  
          That is the extremes are trying to deny the rational and equitable middle, and suppress such rational and fair voices.   In my view men and women both need to stand up to these extreme voices that rely upon caricatures and stereotypes to fuel at the core a hate for the opposite sex.
          There are other groups, that include women as well, that definitively address this:
          The overmedicating of young boys in school.“  
          But they are fighting a largely female-dominated narrative that pathologicalizes boy behavior and has crafted (at least where I live) an educational system about as ill-fitting to a high energy small child as you can imagine —basically no recess.  
          It is usually a woman in the psychology profession or school system who pushes and, in their expert opinion, recommends medicating a boy and if not, you are a bad parent to the point of calling social services, another female dominated profession.   Yet, male dominated pharma aids and abets this.   All the surveys schools, primary care physician, etc. use, to evaluate if a boy should be medicated are generated by pharma and pharma funded groups.  
          Didn’t want to get too political there, but the above two things (family law, medication of boys) is very much a part of the older man’s world as most are divorced and have raised kids.     So if you are dating most men will have a view that misandrists (who call themselves feminist) are a problem, but the men I know do not think all women are to blame by any means and that the feminism we grew up with in the 70s and 80s is a good thing.
          Agree that the vast majority of the “manosphere” is concerned with getting laid (or why they are not), and venting their frustrations about how hard it is for them.   Some people just love to whine and everyone loves an echo chamber.   That’s so much easier than doing something or looking at yourself.   That’s more the manosphere you encounter here, as it is the one concerned with dating and relationships.  
          There are more rational aspects, the “for men” equivalent of what Evan is doing here for women.   And you’d likely not be surprised those places do not blame or hate on women or view them all as sluts, and do not use the alpha/beta BS to describe human relations, and the advice there is not much different than the advice Evan gives women here.
            

          I must admit I find the alpha/beta stuff amusing.   Such tail chasing, and I mean that in several ways.   You know they got something for every letter of the greek alphabet I think, gammas, sigmas, omegas, etc.?   Most of the time it seems to just be a justification for being an a**hole, with a**hole traits equated with being “alpha,” and thus justified on evolutionary/survival of the fittest principles.    

        52. Yet Another Guy

          @GWtF

          You do know that Warren Farrell is seen as a pariah by feminist groups for his book entitled “The Myth of Male Power.”     I did not know about Warren Farrell until I watched “The Red Pill.”

          Gala was right when she stated the men created the laws that disadvantage men.   Many of these laws are very old.   I live in a state with some of the most paternalistic divorce and family laws in the nation.   It is not some backwater red state.   It is a beacon of blueness, a state where Democrats outnumber Republicans by a sizable margin.     Yet, little has been done make divorce and family law more progressive.

        53. Sum Guy

          I truly apologize for no lines between paragraphs.

          I swear they appeared in this little box when pasted my comment in.

        54. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG, Sum Guy, Gala,

          Oh yes Farrell caught a lot of hell from former allies, and that really sucks.   I would say their reaction says more about them than   it does about Farrell.   But Farrell is a trail blazer twice over.   First as a male advocate for feminism, and later as an advocate for men’s issues.   So I’m sure he knew what he was in for the second go around.   Overall, what he pointed out was that women made progress towards equality while men got left behind.

          When I read Gala’s comment it reminded me about a college history professor who said “Old men start wars that young men die fighting.”   Many issues aren’t just male-female, but also about class and race.   Most enlisted men come from poor and working class families, and minority men make up a greater percentage of enlisted men than they are in the general population.   In WW2 and Korean war era the sons of some of the wealthiest American families lost their lives in combat.   Presidents Kennedy and and George H. Bush were injured in combat.   Somewhere that changed and now the wealthy not only don’t volunteer for service, but they wriggle out of being drafted as well.

          One thing that men point out (as Farrell did) is that it’s unfair for men to carry the burden of fighting wars and civil defense.   Yet it’s male leaders who fought against women being in combat roles.   Women like Phyllis Schlafly  fought against women serving in the military and she was embraced by a lot of men as an ally in the fight against feminism.   Which is strange because  her viewpoint   against feminism was based on the argument that women had a privileged role in society and it should be maintained.

          In family law, not only is there gender bias, but how much it affects you is in part determined by how much money you have.   Very wealthy men don’t generally get screwed in divorces.   They have an army of lawyers to make sure there are pre-nups, ante-nups, irrevocable trusts, and the like to protect them

          Sum Guy,   Oh I know all about how energetic, distractible boys are treated in schools.   I’ve lived it with my younger son.   A year ago we moved to a small school district in the sticks where class sizes are small and the staff gets to know all of the kids.   That alone made a huge difference in both how he functioned and how he was treated.

        55. Jeremy

          A thought about masculinity and feminism…

           

          I’ve thought quite a bit about what masculinity means to various men – ask 10 men and you’ll get 10 answers.   But what the answers all have in common is that masculinity is what is NOT feminine.   That seems to be a big deal to most guys – whatever women are doing, that’s what they DON’T want to be doing.   Even from the perspective of education and employment – whenever a given job or field of study seems to be perceived as a female-dominated area, most men don’t want to go into it (with exceptions….but those exceptions often overcompensate, like a male nurse I know who loves shotguns and chopping trees in his spare time).

           

          I think that what many men perceive as a loss of masculinity is a narrowing of the possibilities of what they can perceive as masculine and not feminine.   Is being a breadwinner masculine?   Always was in the past.   Now?   Not so much.   So men lose interest in it because women are doing it.   Is going to university masculine?   Same story.   Men seem to want a private clubhouse that women aren’t in, so that they can call it masculine and perceive it as different than what women are.   And more and more such a thing does not exist.

           

          Is that a bad thing?   Not from women’s perspective – neither from the perspective of status or attraction to men.   But from the perspective of male psychology which requires men  to be different from women…..maybe?   Men will need to find a way to perceive themselves as still being masculine notwithstanding this, though.   The feminist idea that instead of perceiving one’s self as masculine we should just be human – just doesn’t work for men.   Without that difference, we lose attraction.   Without that difference we lose self esteem.   Warren Farrell seems to think the new masculinity will be in child-rearing and nurturing – not sure how I feel about that.   But it’s got to be something.

        56. Yet Another Guy

          @GWtF

          I wonder who is ultimately behind The Red Pill Reddit and MGTOW.   Call me cynical, but I wonder if they are part of yet another divide-and-conquer scheme.    Most Americans do not know that racism in America was originally created as a divide-and-conquer scheme by the planter class in Maryland and Virginia after Bacon’s Rebellion.   The planters wanted to put into place a tri-racial class system to maintain control like they did in the Caribbean.   This system had white planters at the top, mixed-race creoles in the middle, and Africans at the bottom.   However, there was no significant mixed race population in the American colonies, so the planter class pitted freed European servants against freed African servants by placing freed European servants above freed African servants and dangling the carrot of joining their ranks.   The remnants of that divide-and-conquer scheme are still with us today in more ways than one.   Why do you think a poor white southern man will fight to the death to protect a rich white southern man’s wealth?   That stance makes no logical sense to a rational person, but it is been with us for over 300 years.

          The history of bound labor in the United States has been whitewashed beyond belief.   It is not uncommon for Americans who appear to be lily white to carry near sub-Saharan genetic admixture because interracial marriage was common before Bacon’s Rebellion.     The anti-miscegenation laws were not put in to place until 1691 in Virginia and 1692 in Maryland.   Perpetual slavery did not exist before the end of the 17th century.   These laws were all part of the solution to Bacon’s Rebellion.   The dominant bound labor in the colonies up until we won our independence was of European origin, mostly British in the form surplus poor from the Britain’s workhouses, poor children snatched from the streets of England and pressed into service until age 21, transportees (convicts) courtesy of the Old Bailey, redemptions (what people think of when they hear the word “indentured”), and prisoners of war (the descendants of whom we refer to as “hillbillies,” which were runaway lowland Scotsmen, a.k.a. the Scots-Irish).   If you do not believe me, compare the founding the Australian colony (1788)  with American independence.   That is not coincidence.   Great Britain needed a new place to dump its surplus poor and convicts.

        57. Yet Another Guy

          *That is no coincidence.

      2. 30.2.2
        Theodora

        So basically you admit that some (probably many) women do exactly what the evil, nasty, woman-hating YAG does – Google-searching information about their prospective and actual dates.

        You just don’t like the fact that he can search   more in-depth information about his dates.

        So, for the women is legitimate concern and interest about their potential and actual dates, for him is misogyny and invading women’s privacy. Right?

        1. Callie

          No, not right. Not what I’ve said. Inaccurate.

        2. Katie

          I think some people, men and women, google search their dates beforehand. I don’t see that as a problem or evidence of anything sinister.

          What’s different in the case of YAG though, is that rather than looking out of curiosity, he says himself that he’s looking for dirt. And he says that he has a right to this information.

          YAG says “I believe that I have a right to know this information if I am going to get involved with a woman at my age. “

          This assertion suggests an unhealthy degree of distrust on his part. I don’t think he should be vilified for his confessions. But it makes me feel bad for him, because I think it’s his own fault that he’s suffering in the relationship department, because he’s actively looking for reasons to not date people. A   healthy perspective in dating is to enjoy the experience of dating around and meeting new people. YAG does not embrace this attitude and rather has a paranoid notion that people are inherently out to harm him. This unhealthy self-preservation taken to the extreme can be seen in men AND women, and it is unattractive on BOTH genders and only hurts them and suggests to me   that the individual feels very vulnerable in the realm of relationships. And THAT in turn suggests to me that the individual is not particularly emotionally mature and is not good relationship material.

          You do not have a right to someone’s dirty laundry on a first date. It’s just a date. EVEN if the internet makes it available and “public”. These men and women didn’t agree to have these unflattering snapshots of their lives made public, and I think that the notion of it’s public and there so I have a right to it   is harmful. Use your own judgement. It’s logically like making the argument, well the law says that I have a right to alimony, so it’s owed to me. And I think most would disagree with this assertion.

           

           

           

      3. 30.2.3
        Selena

        @YAG

          What I do agree with is the notion that modern women want to have their cake and eat it too.   They want the upside of the old without its downside.     If I were a woman, I would more than likely want it too.   However, to not acknowledge that men have given without receiving anything in return is being disingenuous.   That is the root cause of the angst.”

        YAG, some comments on this thread, (and throughout this blog) have been about MEN wanting to “have their cake and eat it too”.

        What do you see as the upside of the old vs. it’s downside?

        And what is it that you consider that men are giving without receiving anything in return?

        You were born in 1961 YAG,-   as was I. We were little kids during the “Summer of Love” back in the 1960’s. My parents didn’t take me to Woodstock in 1969, did yours?

        When we were teens were heard slogans like: “Sex, Drugs, & Rock & Roll!” and “If it feels good do it!” And, “If you love something, set it free – it will come back to you if it’s meant to be.”

        In the 1980’s when we were in our 20’s   –   we watched many newscasts and public service announcements about the danger of AIDS and how important it was to wear condoms.   Damn scary back then. Why is it we hardly ever hear about AIDS  anymore? The virus hasn’t been eradicated.

        Nevertheless, we managed to date, mate, and find partners to have children with. And feel fortunate we did. Is there anything more valuable to you than your children? No? Me neither.

        So, here we are…edging quickly toward 60, and THE  ONE thing we know is how fast time goes.   Why waste it being bitter about past crap?

        Comes a time, when each of us might need to ask ourselves WHY we are hanging on to past crap-   the root cause of our angst.   Hmm.

        Just a thought.

         

         

    3. 30.3
      Kenley

      I have a don’t ask   don’t tell policy.   I never tell men about my past and none of the men I have dated have ever asked me.   Now, a few guys told me about their past   — I think to see how I would react.   It really didn’t bother me because I don’t ever get jealous.

      While I don’t interrogate men on their past, I do think it is very helpful to discuss what your sexual must haves and deal breakers are.   I only realized how valuable this discussion is when I began a BSDM relationship.   As a sub in the relationship, I actually set the tone for what we would do and we had an exhaustive list of activities that I   rated on a scale from 1 to 4.   We agreed on everything we liked, wanted to try,   or was out of bounds.   Every single encounter we had was awesome because we were on the same page.   And, getting there did not involve talking about what we did with other people.   I know many women have commented that they don’t like being asked what they like, but   I liked having my partner know.      Because he didn’t have to guess what I liked, he could put all his attention on giving me exactly what I wanted.

       

    4. 30.4
      Emily, the original

      Sum Guy,

      but rather when there is a general conversation (one the woman initiated) about pasts, partners, things you have tried.   Is there anything you in particular would not want to hear,

      Generalized conversation about serious relationships or relationships that meant something to the man are fine. Particulars about what he’s done, with whom, etc. are … blech. There’s nothing less sexy than being in a sex session and the man announcing, “I’ve done this before.”

      1. 30.4.1
        Sum Guy

        Emily,

        i truly hope no man has never announced in the moment to you “I’ve done this before”. Sounds like a real mood killer

        i do get asked about past partners and what they were like, and I try to avoid particulars but sometimes wonder if that is what is being asked

        1. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy

          i do get asked about past partners and what they were like, and I try to avoid particulars but sometimes wonder if that is what is being asked

          They probably want to know if the others were better than they are bed. I would avoid that   topic of conversation. A woman loves to hear “this is some of the best sex I’ve had,” but only if it is truly meant and is not a response that is prompted by a question (because then it just seems you are saying it in hopes of not shutting the sex train down!)

        2. Sum Guy

          Emily @ 30.4.1

          i figured that may be it, I mentioned somewhere that I’m honest about these things and will let a woman know if it’s some of the best sex I’ve ever had, which I’ve been lucky has often been the case…because I’m not fixated on one thing and take each encounter on its own they all can be done if the best

          I guess I don’t grade on a curve, you get 90% of the “questions” right you get an A 🙂 in my book

          i get nervous when asked what would make it the best, because the real answer is time and mutual love

        3. Sum Guy

          Oops one of the best, not done if the best

        4. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          because I’m not fixated on one thing and take each encounter on its own they all can be done if the best

          I’m just one person, but that is something as a woman that I WOULD NOT want to hear. You’re giving the entire class an A! I just did the math. I would give “the best” marks to 9% of the men I’ve been with. It’s a special designation for only the top students!

        5. Sum Guy

          Hi Emily

          this is exactly why I need this feed back, thank goodness I’ve never made that analogy.   In my experience 9% of a class did not get 90% of the questions right on a test, that would be a forced curve…but mathematics aside I get that this makes it seem less special

          of course for me 8% of the women I’ve been with would be 1

          should I even stick with saying one of the best?    There’s “only” 4 women I’ve been with that fit this category, each the best in one way the others are not, but I don’t divide it that way, it’s the total package and total experience, hence one of the best

          yet if someone pushed me on why just one of the best, not the best, do I not answer, say something sly n seductive like well if I said you were the best (even if you are) we might not keep trying, more romantic like I want the best to be with you (those last two aren’t lines I feel that way), be more in guy mode and say best in different ways (is that better will she think well I can do that better than her), tell her she is the best at the thing she is best at, or something else

          when I think what made the best The Best, after high sexual compatibility, it was just love over time (a deep melding trust and knowledge of each other)…but can you tell someone that?

          i really don’t want to get into the mode well she asked and she shouldn’t ask if she can’t handle the answer

        6. Emily, the original

          SumGuy,

          There’s “only” 4 women I’ve been with that fit this category,

          Well, four makes more sense. I have a guy friend who says two women made it into his sexual hall of fame!

           

          yet if someone pushed me on why just one of the best, not the best, do I not answer

          No. Only a woman who was into self-torture would ask such questions.

          say something sly n seductive like well if I said you were the best (even if you are) we might not keep trying

          But if she’s (dumb enough) to keep probing and you don’t remove yourself from the conversation (which I recommend)… Don’t say this. Sounds like you are placating her.

          more romantic like I want the best to be with you

          No. More placating.

          be more in guy mode and say best in different ways (is that better will she think well I can do that better than her), tell her she is the best at the thing she is best at, or something else

          Again, “best in different says” sounds like a bullshit answer. Why on earth would she want to compete with what the manosphere calls “phantom fucks” or ghosts of previous people?

           

          when I think what made the best The Best, after high sexual compatibility, it was just love over time (a deep melding trust and knowledge of each other)…but can you tell someone that?

          That’s a good answer, actually. Don’t give specifics or name names, but say it was the best because of high compatibility and deep feelings.

           

        7. Sum Guy

          Thanks Emily

          now I’ve got to google “phantom fucks” never heard of that

           

        8. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          now I’ve got to google “phantom fucks” never heard of that

          Your former lovers. The theory is they’re haunting you on a movie reel you play over and over in your mind. A sexual greatest hits, so to speak. The manosphere believes that, for women, they are all studly alpha men who the woman always remembers as she marries the beta man. I don’t believe the alpha/beta part of it, but I do think a lot of people have memories of their greatest hits that may or may not include their current partner.

        9. Sum Guy

          Emily,

          an amusing idea, to each there own I guess, the wonders of insecure thinking never cease to amaze, but I can assure you I don’t play back “greatest sexual hits” in my head

          smacks of life has passed you by, “glory days” thinking

          Im much more into bringing about the next blockbuster 🙂

        10. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          but I can assure you I don’t play back “greatest sexual hits” in my head

          Really? I do.

          I’m much more into bringing about the next blockbuster

          That, too. I’d like to add some more footage before I get off this planet. QUALITY footage, though.       🙂

  11. 31
    Jeremy

    Callie,

    We are not talking about 2 different types of validation.   We are talking about the same thing.   I’m not sure if you read the whole conversation last week about sexual meta-goals – I won’t rehash it here.   But an important thing to note is that whatever a person desires from sex, that is what they hope their partner wants too.   The person who wants pleasure wants to give pleasure.   The person who wants novelty expects his partner to also want novelty.   None of that is particularly interesting, except when it comes to validation.   Validation is not the desire to have sex with an attractive/high-quality partner.   It is the desire to be DESIRED BY an attractive/high quality partner.   And if a person wants to be desired, what do they hope their partner wants?   To desire them in return.

     

    What does the validation-seeking man hope his partner will “get” out of giving him a BJ?   After all, there’s no way she will have an orgasm from doing so.   He hopes that she will enjoy giving him pleasure – her being high-quality and wanting to give him enjoyment is the validation he hopes to receive and give.   This is absolutely no different from the woman who has a ONS with a man because she wants to feel desired.   She craves validation.   And the validation would be more potent the higher-quality the partner, but the low self-esteem woman might not be able to bring herself to seduce that type of man, or may worry that the high-quality man won’t derive pleasure from being with her, so she seeks out someone who will.   Validation is validation.   How we seek it may differ.

     

    You asked why am I constantly claiming that a woman who has a ONS with a man desires that man more.   That isn’t what I wrote.   If you look at my first comment on this post, I wrote that men and women do not see eye-to-eye on this issue because our perceptions are not the same.   I never wrote that the woman necessarily desires the ONS guy more, I wrote that the man will perceive that she does, because of the different way men and women tend to view sex vs commitment.   There is a profound difference there!   And especially if her feelings toward the “relationship” guy are lukewarm.   If they aren’t lukewarm, this is not an issue, except insofar as each partner might judge the behavior/morals of the other as being compatible or not, but that isn’t about desire, its about compatibility.

    1. 31.1
      Callie

      I understand that perception. But I guess my larger point is: if the guy (like yourself) is aware it’s just perception not reality . . . why can’t he work on himself to disabuse himself of the notion? Why is it we need to know so hard (in that you write long post after post after post) that a man, despite evidence to the contrary, will think this way about a woman? Is it so that women change their behaviour despite everyone acknowledging they aren’t doing the thing?

      And I guess yes it is about compatibillity, about a woman who prefers a man who is logical and doesn’t allow conclusions  he knows to be untrue sway his opinion of her.

      See again, I get what you are saying. I just don’t understand your point. Is it yet again to tell women to change their behaviour because men can’t?

      1. 31.1.1
        Jeremy

        My comments have been scattered, Callie, so here they are in a nutshell.

         

        Women – understand how men feel about this, in general.

         

        Men – understand how women feel about this, in general, and be sure to evaluate whether the heuristics you are using to evaluate your relationship are based on correct thoughts.

        1. Callie

          Well if that’s your message, then I am most certainly on board. 🙂

  12. 32
    Marika

    Sum Guy

    Speaking as someone on the gen X/Y cusp (that seems to matter in the context of this discussion), I’d prefer to know as little as possible about a man’s sexual past.

    But: I know he has one, I know he’s probably slept with women hotter, kinkier and younger than me, and that’s fine. His past is his own. If he treats me well and what we do together, we both enjoy, that’s what matters. If a man were to suggest trying something I hasn’t or was unfamiliar with, I’m also happy to at least consider it, (as long as it doesn’t involve other people or animals or whatever), without thinking “who else has he done this with? Was she better than me?”. Also, I think being open will help, more so than worrying about whether he’ll leave me for a hotter sex bunny.

    He may. But there’s nothing at all I can do about that. And fretting about his past will only make things worse, not better.

    I think one or two of the commenters views here are reflective of their lack of experience with online dating, or still not having come to terms with it. If you date online you know they can get a woman to come over and have sex within the hour, if you say no. There’s no point being offended by that, it’s just the way it is.

    1. 32.1
      Sum Guy

      Thanks Marika,

      sounds like we are close in age/ generation

      would love to hear about this site where could get someone to come over in an hour for sex, just kidding

      i don’t find the sex part hard but it’s not that easy 🙂

      i don’t know if it is just curiosity or what but I do get asked about past partners and what they were like, I won’t lie about things and don’t like to kiss n tell (I figure there is a kind of confidentiality you owe your past lovers) so not sure what to say

  13. 33
    Marika

    I have two stories before I leave this thread. They may help. Or not. But it’s worth a try, as stories often help me understand a point.

    The ‘bad’/don’t be like this story: my ex-husband loved that I was a ‘technical’ virgin when we got together. He loved even more that after I made him wait for quite a long time (wrestling with own morals, nothing to do with him), I  said yes to pretty much everything he wanted to do. Guys can relate to why this was a massive ego boost for him. BUT: because those two things don’t usually go together he started to not trust my virgin status, questioned me about it several times and even accused me of lying. So he both rewarded and punished me for the exact same thing, due to his own insecurities and double standards (he was an ex male slut).

    The good/happily ever aftet story: my friend has been happily married to a man for at least 14 years (their eldest child is 13), who she disregarded at first as not attractive enough, or right for her. He actively pursued her even though she was openly chasing a hotter, older unavailable dude. He knew he was her second choice. He pursued her anyway. He now has everything he wants. Do you think he feels like a chump?

    He’s definitely not ‘beta’. His cool confidence pursuing her knowing he was better than the hotter unavailable guy & not being at all threatened was the ultimate in strong masculine confidence and won her over.

    1. 33.1
      Theodora

      What is the meaning of ‘technical virgin’? Doing oral or anal but not intecourse?

    2. 33.2
      Jeremy

      Re: 2nd guy – “do you think he feels like a chump?”   Depends, Marika.   Is he getting what he needs out of the relationship from a psychological perspective?   Is she? I’m not asking you this, because you have no way of knowing. But if their answer is yes, then they have a great relationship.   If not, then they don’t.   Anyone who looked at my marriage 7 years ago from the outside would have described it in a similar way to what you wrote, not knowing the internal workings of a marriage.   Again, it’s not the past that matters, it’s the present.   It’s not the person’s sexual history, it’s the WHY of the history, because that’s what affects the present.

  14. 34
    Theodora

    I’m really happy that my English is so good that I’m considered a native speaker. I have to send the screenshot of this conversation with my thanks and gratitude to my former English teachers 🙂

  15. 35
    Jeremy

    I’m too emotional about this issue, and I’ve posted too much.   But I I beg your indulgence for one more post, which will be my last on this topic.

     

    Those who have studied psychology will be familiar with a list of cognitive biases that people are prone to – availability bias, confirmation bias, hindsight bias, etc.   But on this blog, the one I see over and over again is what I will term “happily-ever-after bias.”   The notion that the way things are right now is the way they will continue to be, or the notion that if only things would be the way we  believe they “should” be, they would continue to be  good in the future.

     

    No one marries a person with whom they are currently having conflict.   No one marries a person who is uninterested in having sex with them at the time.   Yet the divorce rate is as high as it is because people change, and because people don’t believe that statistics apply to them.   “Sure, 40-50% of marriages might end in divorce, but not ours.   We’re perfect for each other.”   Based on what do you say that?   Based on the assumption that the future will be like the present.   We know that change will happen – but we’re agnostic about the change.   We believe we can’t foresee it, so we take our chances.   But there is so much we can foresee, if only we look in the right places.

     

    The  couple who sees money differently, where one is a spender and the other is a saver, will argue about money – and more so when money is tight.   The couple who doesn’t agree on whether they want kids will argue about kids – and more so when the woman nears 40.    And the couple that approaches sex for different reasons will argue about sex – and more so when one loses interest.   And having a formerly-interested spouse lose interest is COMMON. Even though, when they are courting or newly wed, none  of these issues may come up, and the couple might not see this issue coming.   They aren’t looking in the right places.

     

    Too much bad advice tells us that when one spouse loses interest it is either due to medical reasons or due to neglect by their partner.   They don’t mention the elephant in the room – the loss of desire due to loss of arousal, without any medical reason or neglect.   No one talks about this – no one even seems to know about it – yet go to a “dead bedrooms” reddit and spend some time reading.   Talk to someone to whom it has happened.

     

    Conventional advice states that when one spouse loses desire, the solution is for the other spouse to focus on increasing comfort – help her with the housework, let her sleep in, help her turn off the “offs.”   Ask anyone who has been in this situation and they will confirm that this doesn’t work to improve desire.   The manosphere advises men to “up the alpha” – focus on arousal qualities rather than comfort qualities – but this advice too is flawed, because it fails to specify what any given women might find arousing!   What is her sexual meta-goal?   That is the piece of the puzzle that is missing.   And you can’t usually find out by asking her, because only the most self-aware people will even know – everyone else will make something up and then believe it.   Because in order to answer this question, one needs to look at one’s HISTORY.   When we have  sex, why do we want  it?   What do we GET out of it?   When we do not want sex, what is  missing?   It isn’t about the “what” of the history, but the “why.”

     

    When people evaluate their compatibility, they focus on the “who, what, where, and when” of the present.   They tend to ignore the “why.”   Or mis-interpret it.   Or make something up because they want to believe it.   Understanding the “why” will improve your chances of successful relationships in the future, will minimize unforeseen conflict, and will give solutions to conflict when it arises.   It took me a decade to realize this.

     

    A smart man learns from his mistakes.   A brilliant man learns from the mistakes of others, so as not to make them himself.   Be brilliant.

     

    1. 35.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Jeremy,

      Thank you for your contributions to the blog.   You communicate your viewpoint very well, and I know you take care to try and  weed out unfounded stereotypes and judgement from your comments.   I don’t always like what I learn from your posts, but I rarely disagree, and I do leave with new insight and understanding.

      1. 35.1.1
        Jeremy

        Thank you.   The feeling is mutual.

        1. Marika

          Well said GWTF. I value you & the way you express yourself too, Jeremy. One final question though, as I do value what you say (and this time it really is the final one!): about being brilliant.

          I think you’re saying it took you a decade to figure out your wife’s meta-goal was relationship, while yours was validation. So, to get her interested again you had to give her the sense that maybe, just maybe the relationship was threatened if you weren’t getting your needs met. Rather than helping with the dishes etc.

          With you so far.

          But about being brilliant, what difference would it have made knowing that was her goal  before you married her? What would you have done differently? And how would you have found out? In the absence of that quiz I asked you to develop (😀), and knowing how I feel about questioning people about their pasts, how can you figure these things out relying on info about how they’ve acted previously? What would you have said to your fiancé at the time to figure this out, given she didn’t even know her meta-goal herself?

        2. Jeremy

          I value you and your contributions here too, Marika, and hate to see us at odds.

           

          It’s not just that it took me a decade to figure out my wife’s and my metagoal.   It took me that long to consider what a meta-goal was – you won’t find it written anywhere else.    Between my readings from various sources, the 3 points I had to synthesize to dig my way out of my personal hole were:

          1) That people don’t always understand themselves.   That when a person says one thing and their behaviour shows something else, trust behaviour but also understand that there’s no malevolence there.

          2) That there is a difference between comfort qualities and arousal qualities (as I’ve discussed here ad nauseam), and that hitting these qualities results in different reactions.

          3) That in order to want sex, a meta-goal must be present, and that meta-goal is not usually consciously understood.

           

          What would I have done differently?   I never would have had the problem in the first place, because instead of trying to prove my worth to my wife by constantly trying to please her, I would have understood that she would have been happier trying to please ME.   Occasionally.

           

          And I don’t like quizzes.   Because making lists and relegating one’s conclusions to pre-fab questions opens the door to error – see MBTI testing.   I wouldn’t have had to grill my wife about her past, just observe her behavior.   If her goal was validation, she would be overly concerned about seeing my reactions when she tried to please me.   If her goal was novelty, she would have been constantly wanting to try new things.   If her goal was pleasure, she would have been constantly after orgasms or stimulation.   If her goal was having a relationship, she would be especially passionate after she felt the relationship was being advanced, and distant when she thought it wasn’t.   I’m a bit of an intuitive thinker, so it would have been kind of obvious….if only I had known about any of this.

        3. Jeremy

          Re-reading this question, one other important thing comes to mind for anyone wanting to understand how to apply their knowledge of meta-goals.   Marika wrote, “So, to get her interested again you had to give her the sense that maybe, just maybe the relationship was threatened if you weren’t getting your needs met.”   This is actually incorrect.

           

          Whenever you create a dynamic where your partner feels she/he must meet your demands or else you will leave, that creates an uneven power dynamic.   And nothing kills sexual desire faster than a feeling of powerlessness (except in people whose sexual meta-goal is submission).   I absolutely did NOT hint to my wife that the future of our relationship was contingent on her regaining her desire.

           

          What I did was the opposite.   I had to act ambivalent about having sex – like I could take it or leave it, like it was no big deal at all if she said no on any given night, because I didn’t care.   A combination of this attitude along with a suggestion that I had other options (demonstrating high value) created a dynamic where she felt she had to re-establish the relationship she wanted, and had to use her own intuition/creativity to think of how to do that.   And so she came up with sexual desire on her OWN – and of course she would, since that had always been her meta-goal, as I knew quite well.   Her coming up with the idea on her own eliminates the power struggle.

           

          That may seem convoluted, but it makes perfect sense if you think about it.   The key is to let the person come up with the idea on their own, and to simply create the conditions for them to do it.   Now please use this strategy for mutual benefit and not for selfishness.   So much of the PUA strategies rely on similar psych tactics, but the difference is that they don’t result in mutual benefit…

  16. 36
    Marika

    Chance said:

    I don’t think what you described would keep a woman from having sex fairly early on if the attraction level is high enough IME.   Also, as I explained to Emily, the sex is usually not that good when it comes to women who make you wait.   I think there are generally two reasons for this.

    Do you live in a very liberal area? Human sexuality is driven by so many factors, many of them social /cultural /religious, nothing to do with attraction. You’re buying into this idea that if a woman feels she needs to wait, it’s all about the man.  Completely untrue!

    1. 36.1
      Chance

      Fair enough, Marika :).   I suppose I live in a liberal area, and to answer your previous question:   I’ve never been with a religious woman.   However, I’m not buying into any ideas.   Rather, I’m just relaying my experience.   When I’ve waited for sex, the sex just wasn’t that fun.

      1. 36.1.1
        Sum Guy

        I’ve seen no correlation in my life between how good someone is in bed and how long they “make you” wait

        sadly I’ve also found no correlation between how long you wait and how long the relationships lasts

        also you need to define “wait” for me if you’ve known someone as a friend/social circle for a while that time counts for me even if you never thought of them romantically previously

        the only correlation I have found is the most attractive women, say 9’s, are less good in bed than the 8’s, 7’s, etc.   my theory is maybe because people (men and women) who are really good looking and know it, get by a little easier in life

        my female friends have joked the same, calling such good looking guys himbos

        my predictors of someone being good in bed are intelligence and presence

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Sum Guy

          sadly I’ve also found no correlation between how long you wait and how long the relationships lasts

          However, a lot of female commenters on this blog promote the idea.   As I mentioned earlier, a guy usually knows whether or not he wants a relationship with a woman after the first date.   If a man has to go beyond that point to make this determination, he is just not that into the woman.   It is usually a commitment of convenience because he has no better options.     No one wants to be in this type of commitment.

        2. Sum Guy

          YAG

          while I may know if I want to sleep with someone after the first date (from a purely physical point of view) I don’t even think in terms of a relationship until many dates later …although my ultimate goal is LTR i keep my mind on having fun and getting to know someone and see how things develop

          if I keep seeing someone I’m into them, especially as I am exclusive when sleeping with someone

        3. Callie

          “the only correlation I have found is the most attractive women, say 9’s, are less good in bed than the 8’s, 7’s, etc.   my theory is maybe because people (men and women) who are really good looking  and know it,  get by a little easier in life

          my female friends have joked the same, calling such good looking guys himbos”

          Agree with your female friends 100%.

           

        4. Sum Guy

          Presence meaning they are there in the moment genuinely engaged with you, not posing, mirroring etc.    nothing to do with bearing, dress, looks, etc.

  17. 37
    Marika

    Chance said:

    However, given your commentary surrounding this subject, I get a strong impression that you want to believe that this is true.

    Or possibly you want to believe your theory is true, so you won’t have to feel bad about dumping women who didn’t put out by the third date… 😉

  18. 38
    Marika

    Emily

    I’ll chip in $50 if we can add bimodal to the list.

    Also any suggestion that male behaviour is subject to nuance & circumstance, whereas women are all fembots driven only by hormones and hypergamy.

    1. 38.1
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      Women are all slaves to the who-has, Marika. Surely you this.     🙂

    2. 38.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Marika

      Men are usually anything, but nuanced.   Men are fairly direct.

  19. 39
    Marika

    Jeremy

    I’m very glad I asked you that ‘final’ question. Because I completely understand. And I very much appreciate how you explained it in the present moment and in relationship to observing current behaviour in a way that (I think) is fair. BTW, was just kidding about the quiz… 😉

    What you say rings true. My ex kept asking me over and over why I wasn’t ‘getting there’ consistently with him. Like your wife, I had no idea how to answer these questions, so I said what I thought to be true: that it was my anxiety over our relationship not being on solid ground. But it wasn’t. Not that I knew anything about meta-goals, but I would’ve thought at that time mine was ‘relationship’. That was secondary, though. Everything you describe (including your 5 year old daughter’s behaviour, which I very much relate to), shows I’m first & foremost a validation person. I’m even seeking validation from you!! I think my ex  was ultimately a validation person too, but, also as you describe, was going about it in a different way that didn’t serve his needs: novelty (constant seeking to find that one person who will give the ultimate validation to supplement the emptiness he felt inside). A validation/relationship person is never going to be happy with a validation/novelty person. So it was never going to work. It helps to recognise that, thank you.

    Also to be aware of my own need for validation IN a relationship going forward. And not to settle for false validation (e.g. a non-committal man I feel I need to keep proving my worth to).

    1. 39.1
      Jeremy

      Excellent 🙂    Now, the only reason I brought up the past rather than simply observing the present is because we should not fall victim to the “what you see is all there is” fallacy.   But if the relationship has gone on long enough, it should give enough perspective, I suppose.   It’s the beginning of relationships that are more problematic.

      1. 39.1.1
        Marika

        Oh J, don’t ruin it…:)

        1. Jeremy

          Sorry 🙂

    2. 39.2
      Jeremy

      Also, re: “Getting there”…

       

      As much as I talk about arousal and ‘on’ switches, we should not forget about comfort and ‘off’ switches – and we should not confuse the two.

       

      My first relationship ever had the highest initial chemistry and the lowest compatibility, and I experienced erectile dysfunction frequently.   It was humiliating and also confusing – why, given all the arousal I was feeling, was my body not responding?   I went to the doctor and got a clean bill of health, and I couldn’t figure it out.   In retrospect, I now know exactly what the problem was – my ‘off’ switches were frozen.   Because as much as I was feeling validation and arousal, I did not feel secure in a relationship, which was what I needed to activate my comfort centers and deactivate my ‘off’ switches.   No matter how hard you push the accelerator in a car, you’re going nowhere if your other foot is on the brakes.   You end up getting nowhere and running out of gas.   Which is an apt metaphor.

       

      You mentioned your suspicion that your sexual meta-goal is validation with a side of relationship.   Is the relationship aspect a sexual meta-goal, or a comfort switch?   The accelerator or the brakes?   If it was the accelerator, you would have sex with a man with the goal of securing a relationship with him.   If it was the brakes, you would feel most comfortable having sex with a man in the context of a relationship.   See the difference?   It’s important!

      1. 39.2.1
        Sum Guy

        Jeremy

        color me confused, and maybe it is the nomenclature, but I don’t see comfort as an “off” switch.

        More of a “pause” button

        yes when I’m in comfort mode I am content to just be with someone and non-sexual intimacy but if my partner feels a little frisky it actually makes me already primed as comfort derives from trust and trust frees me from inhibition, anxiety and all those negative things that can impact arousal

        i believe I’ve observed the same in most of the women I’ve been with

        do you think it matters how well you   trigger someone’s “on” switches that could turn comfort into a “pause” instead of an “off” ?

        1. Jeremy

          Hi Sum Guy.   Some of us on this site had a talk a while back about comfort vs arousal, and I assumed that Marika already knew what I was talking about, but I should have been cognizant that others wouldn’t know what I was talking about.   Sorry.

           

          Think of each person as having a sexual “on” switch and a sexual “off” switch.   An accelerator and a brake, if you will.   Our accelerator is activated by the arousal qualities our partner displays.   Our brake is DEACTIVATED by the comfort qualities our partner displays.   Some people have an accelerator that is difficult to activate, and need more arousal.   Some have a brake that is difficult to deactivate, and need more comfort.   All of us need both, though, to some extent.   If you search Evan’s blog, you’ll find the main discussion.   I think the topic was “Most women don’t dream of dating nice guys” on the last page.

           

          In this example here, I’m trying to tease out the difference between wanting a relationship as an arousal quality to activate the accelerator versus a comfort quality to deactivate the brakes.

        2. Sum Guy

          Thanks Jeremy,

          now it makes perfect sense, comfort is looking like putting tape over the off switch.    I tend to use the word security instead of comfort, if we lack a feeling of security (even if just imagined) our off switch is activated

          a sense of security/comfort could even come from a dysfunctional relationship if that is, e.g., is the only relationship model you’ve had

  20. 40
    Theodora

    Of all the comments I read here, the most ridiculous is the idea that women can have sex quickly and without conditions with men they are meh about (for validation or whatever),   while making men they really like wait for sex and court them.

    It sounds like this: “When I really like a man, he gets to buy me dinner. When I don’t like him so much, he just gets a blowjob pretty fast”.

    Reversing the gender roles, this is like listening with a straight face a man saying: “Honey, I like you very much, that’s why I just want a blowjob every time we meet. I didn’t like so much a woman before you, that’s why every time we met I just bought her dinner”.

    I think it’s important not to BS ourselves and others.

    1. 40.1
      Sum Guy

      Is it so hard to understand situational behavior and having sex with someone because you just happen to want it and the person is good enough, in the right place at the right time, there are a whole slew of reasons (many have been given) that could make a meh guy good enough, but later when where you are in life is different and you approach these things differently…if nothing else the fear (and this thread shows it is justified) of how a guy a woman likes might judge you if you sleep with him too soon

      There are other reasons as well this is not BS, but you can persist in your view that humans are one-dimensional transactional beings, instead of more complex creatures that act in different ways at different times in there life

      i mean really, just the idea of catching someone on the rebound (a meh person hitting above their league) should dissuade you of the notion that what women are reporting here is BS

      1. 40.1.1
        Theodora

        What some women are reporting here is BS. I mean, the idea that you can make a guy wait because you truly like him while you can have sex without conditions with others who are meh to you because circumstances.

        Even if I’m living in a more conservative society where casual sex is very rare, I can relate more to Kenley’s honesty (I paraphrase) : a guy has to be hot as fuck to me in face, body and attitude to hook up with him.

         

        1. Emily, the original

          Theodora,

          . I mean, the idea that you can make a guy wait because you truly like him while you can have sex without conditions with others who are meh to you because circumstances. Even if I’m living in a more conservative

          And I don’t how many comments there have been to the effect that none of the female posters on this site has heard of a woman dating one man she really likes and making him wait for sex while having sex with some other dude who’s hotter on the side. Most women are THRILLED when a guy they like is making the effort to date and court them. The statistical probability that, at the same time, there’d be another guy hanging around (but just for sex) is very, very low. Even if a woman is lucky enough to have a few men circling her, there is most definitely a pecking order in her mind and most definitely usually just one of the men who’s stepping up consistently. If she likes him, she’d focus her energies on him.

        2. Sum Guy

          Theordora @ 40.1.1

          The fact that some, or even for the sake of argument most, people will only hook up if the guy is hot (in mind, body and attitude) doesn’t mean others would hook up if a guy is just meh depending on circumstances.

          So when you call BS on women posting otherwise you are basically saying they are either lying or delusional when they say they could go with meh because of circumstances.

          Can’t see how you can stick by this, gave you at least one plausible scenario (the rebound) and can think of many others.

    2. 40.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Wow Theo,

      You’re actually trying to improve your game by playing the woman’s perspective.   Except it’s convoluted and nonsensical.   But keep trying!

      BTW, did you miss all of those posts from several male commoners that said they don’t care about a woman’s sexual past?   And that in their estimation, men who get their ego hurt because a woman sleep with a previous man on a faster timeline than with him do so because of their own insecurities?   Oh wait. . . that doesn’t jive with the Red Pill religion you belong to, so of course you would have ignored it.   Confirmation bias and all. . .

      1. 40.2.1
        Theodora

        No confirmation bias, actually.

        Among the men who said they don’t care about a wonan’s sexual past (Tom10, Chance, Shaukat), none of them follows the traditional dating script of planning/paying/courting/waiting for sex. And none of them are actively and intentionally looking for a potential wife and mother of their children.

        And you have to decide if you care or not about my identity, nationality and gender and if they are pertinent to my banal misogynistic arguments: Theo the Manospherian or Theodora a woman. Because you seem to use both when they are convenient, somehow like alpha fux/beta bux.

        1. Sum Guy

          Theodora @ 40.2.1

          I think I also said I didn’t care about the what she did as so much the why, but certainly don’t need  to want to necessarily even hear about it until a ways down the relationship road.   Not that I haven’t had many a conversation, especially when younger, about number and types of partners, coming of sexual age in the age of HIV.

          You said: “Among the men who said they don’t care about a woman’s sexual past (Tom10, Chance, Shaukat), none of them follows the traditional dating script of planning/paying/courting/waiting for sex.   And none of them are actively and intentionally looking for a potential wife and mother of their children.”

          First, my attitude has not changed since I was younger looking to get married and have kids and now.     That has nothing to do with it.

          Second on the traditional dating script, great way to define parameters to exclude views you don’t want to hear.

          I certainly agree that there are men with 1950’s views (I’ll just call them “traditional” even thought that is a loaded term) that are very much concerned about a woman’s sexual past, and may even have this Madonna/whore thing going on.   So what.   I guess if you are a woman looking for that kind of man then yes you need to be concerned.

          I’ll exclude those who base these views on religious principles as there are different sites dedicated to that and being more than familiar with such beliefs, past “sins” don’t mean much because it is about forgiveness.    So even then, maybe even more so,  your sexual past is the past.

          However, I understand the whole plan/pay/court/wait for sex that Evan recommends is to weed out the bad apples and to help women who have not been finding success doing it another way.

          You misunderstand guys like me who do not follow the “script.”   Frankly I have, can and will do these things BUT not because it is expected but because it is right for the situation and often just decent dating behavior NOT because it is some gender role or I need to.

          I will, for example,  do such if it is to provide a sense of security and assure a woman I am not a “player” as long as I feel in return she is not playing me.   It’s really not hard, as a woman I am into, for me by definition, is one I can just talk to for hours and have fun with, sex not required.

          I’ll be honest though, I never have felt I had to “wait,” in fact I impose on myself a waiting period for sex, not waiting to show interest, kissing and such, but taking that next important step.

          Also, if I read Evan correctly, the plan/pay/court/wait for sex   is not written in stone.   I believe he does recommend contact men first, offer to pay after several dates in etc.   It’s the whole sex thing that seems to throw people off, and generate long threads.

          My caution has always been to the good women out there that  if you follow this script do not treat it as an expectation, do understand that this behavior can (if done improperly) come off as using a guy and drive otherwise high value men away.

          I will however agree with you that guys which feel they must plan/pay/court/wait for sex out of a sense of “traditional” gender roles, obligation or desperation are more likely to have a problem with any woman over 30 who even has a sexual history…largely I imagine based on macho/controlling Madonna/whore mentality, insecurity or both.

          I can very well believe it if you told me where you live that all men are like this as that is the Eastern European male stereotype.     Yet don’t confuse that with  the  high value  men in the U.S., which I believe are the target guys for the strong, successful women who come to  Evan or the women who visit this blog.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Theo,

          Actually Chance and Tom are in LTRs and they have both  discussed scenarios of how they would want things if they ever married, though it’s not in the cards for the time being.    Shaukat has never expressed one way or the other whether he desires marriage and children or not.   So your assumptions about them are completely wrong.

          What’s interesting about you is the more you try to argue your point, the more you contradict it.   Yes, Tom, Chance, and Shaukat do expect women to take a more active role in initiating, planning, and paying for dates.   And, hello!   They aren’t experiencing a shortage of women to be with.   Which blows apart your argument that women want to have it both ways.

          Actually I don’t care about your gender or nationality.   Debunking your vapid theories and arguments doesn’t depend upon whether you are Theo the Manospherian or Theodora the Romanian woman surfing the net while at work on the night shift on her employer’s dime, who is also a Manospherian.   It’s just amusing both how you totally write, think, and behave like a man and at the same time repeatedly insist you are a woman when people point this out.   And on top of that you claim to be an Eastern European woman, a group of women that are stereotyped and  fetishized by fellow manospherians.   How ironic!

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