The Difference Between Beauty and Hotness

Bret Weinstein (@BretWeinstein) and Heather Heying (HeatherEHeying) are husband and wife evolutionary biologists and former professors at Evergreen State College.

He was fired from his position for having the temerity to question the idea that black students should be able to ban white students from campus for a day. It’s a fascinating story that turned progressive Weinstein into a celebrity intellectual, cast out angrily by his own tribe for a moderately worded letter to the university.

Anyway, I’ve been following Weinstein on his tour of the intellectual dark web, including multiple podcasts with Sam Harris and now, Joe Rogan.

If you want a snippet of why I asked you to watch this, please check out the above clip of Bret Weinstein discussing the difference between beauty and hotness.

Whether you agree or not, it’s an interesting discussion.

(To watch or listen to the entire podcast, click here)

do you see a difference between beauty and hotness?

So, readers, do you see a difference between beauty and hotness? How does that play out in your own life?

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

Join our conversation (92 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 1
    Olongapo

    Mr. Weinstein is discussing basic Red Pill understandings without using trigger words that will upset some women or classic Blue Pill males.  I admire his temerity in broaching biological truths that don’t fit well with the current cultural narratives.  How this applies to this forum, I just don’t know yet.

    “Hotness” as I understand his perspective, is basically the visual and social triggers that indicate a willingness to be sexual.

    “Beauty” is a bit more cerebral and doesn’t necessarily activate the urge to have sex but,…. includes things like; poise, grace, grooming, etc., etc.

    “Hotness” is what makes men hard and makes women tingle.

    “Beauty” may include a sexual response but there are a whole lot of other appealing factors that are are deemed desirable.

    What’s discussed extensively in online male spaces, is the difference between attraction and arousal and that for men to succeed in their reproductive strategies, they need to learn and utilize those tools and techniques that initially arouse a potential partner.  It’s like learning cheat codes.  The funny thing is that almost all of these “tricks” have some form of self-improvement that is not designed to attract women but instead are designed to make a man a better person than he currently is.  Men that miss this point get laughed at.  The’re told that, “It’s not about her, it’s about you and your own self-improvement.

    Mr. Katz, discussion of evolutionary psychology in anathema in the mainstream culture and is upsetting to both men and women who have been socialized into believing that Disney had it right.  Good luck with this.

     

    1. 1.1
      Emily, the original

      Olongapo

      What’s discussed extensively in online male spaces, is the difference between attraction and arousal and that for men to succeed in their reproductive strategies, they need to learn and utilize those tools and techniques that initially arouse a potential partner.

      I don’t know how it works for men, but for a woman, a man turns her on or he doesn’t. She may like him, she may find him attractive but it’s almost something intangible or impossible to create that arouses her, and it’s unique to that man.

      1. 1.1.1
        Chance

        “She may like him, she may find him attractive but it’s almost something intangible or impossible to create that arouses her, and it’s unique to that man.”

         

        I think you’re right in that tastes can vary wildly from woman-to-woman, but the underlying male characteristics that generate arousal in women are actually fairly predictable and consistent.  Some may prefer Maverick from Top Gun, but something tells me you’re more of the Jason Dean or Stanley Kowalski type:)  Different packaging, but same social dominance and strong constitution.

        1. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          but something tells me you’re more of the Jason Dean or Stanley Kowalski type:)  Different packaging, but same social dominance and strong constitution.

          Do you mean Jason Dean in the movie “Heathers”? YES, very sexy. Or Marlon Brando at the height of his powers. But I’m a huge Prince fan, too. Just someone who’s his own person.

          But I think most women find confident men sexy. The kind of guy who’s not going to go out with just anyone or not thrilled to be getting any sex or won’t break off a bad situation just because he doesn’t want to stop the sex gravy train.

        2. Chance

          Hey Emily,

          “Do you mean Jason Dean in the movie “Heathers”? YES, very sexy.”

          Yep, I figured he was up your alley. I liked your description of a confident man. That’s exactly what I was talking about as it relates to social dominance or a strong constitution. Now, I need to go back and watch ‘Heathers’ again. One of my favorites. It’s been so long….. they all look so young now.

        3. Emily, the original

          Chance, 

          I liked your description of a confident man. That’s exactly what I was talking about as it relates to social dominance or a strong constitution. 

          Why does what I wrote have anything to do with social dominance? I think it’s just having some self-worth. A man who has standards and is looking for very specific qualities in a woman and moves on if who he is dating doesn’t have them or walks if she does but isn’t treating him well.

          Now, I need to go back and watch ‘Heathers’ again. One of my favorites. It’s been so long….. they all look so young now.

          One of my favorite movies. Christian Slater was just imitating Jack Nicholson … but damn was he hot!  But per this post, he’s “hot,” not “beautiful.” He’s not a super handsome guy.

        4. Shaukat

          @ Chance & Emily,

          Love that movie. I remember when I first saw it in middle school I tried emulating the style and attitude of that character, ha.

        5. Emily, the original

          Shaukat, 

          remember when I first saw it in middle school I tried emulating the style and attitude of that character, ha.

          Just buy a motorcyle and a trench coat.   🙂

        6. Chance

          @Emily – Why does what I wrote have anything to do with social dominance? I think it’s just having some self-worth.”

          Perhaps I’m not applying the term correctly, but I believe social dominance relates to someone whose attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors aren’t influenced by others (or, at least, not to a large degree).  I think having a strong sense of self-worth is generally a prerequisite to being socially dominant most of the time.  However, a socially dominant person doesn’t have to be the alpha dog or a leader of men…. he could be the disinterested cad who is off to the side… someone who is more interested in his own pursuits.  These types of people aren’t generally going to put up with unacceptable behavior from others.

           

          @Shaukat – they don’t make ’em like that anymore.

           

        7. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          However, a socially dominant person doesn’t have to be the alpha dog or a leader of men…. he could be the disinterested cad who is off to the side… someone who is more interested in his own pursuits.  These types of people aren’t generally going to put up with unacceptable behavior from others.

          Yeah, I agree. You mentioned Marlon Brando. In the early 50s, when he first became known, everything he did was an affront to the industry — from his acting style to how he showed up to interviews in jeans, saying whatever he wanted to (everyone else wore suits and had been carefully prepared by a publicist). That, to me, is the very definition of your term social dominance. I don’t anybody who lives like that.

  2. 2
    Noone45

    Does it even matter? For those of us who have neither one of these qualities, aesthetic arguments are pointless. But for the sake of entertaining the normal humans: “hotness” is dependent on genetic luck and cultural norms, “beauty” is a subjective experience that can be altered by the presenter. There, are you not entertained?

    1. 2.1
      mgm531

      Beauty is an aesthetically pleasing image or form based on standard or accepted norms, such as body proportions or facial symetry.  This is true of both men and women.  While I am very much a heterosexual male there are certain males that I have come across or seen that are excellent examples of the male form.  I would classify these male examples as beautiful in that they are well proportioned, aesthetically pleasing and structually balanced.

      1. 2.1.1
        Noone45

        Can the dictionary.  We know women are only worth how good they look 🙄

        I lament every day being born with a shred of intelligence as an unattractive woman. Pretty is better than smart any day of the week.

        1. mgm531

          “Pretty is better than smart any day of the week.”

          Says you.  I have known plenty of women that I find physically attractive that I wouldn’t be able to spend more than an hour with before loosing all interest because of their lack of intellect.  Likewise I have met women that are not physically anything special, but they exude a confidance and sexuality that is almost intoxicating.  Having the rare combination of attractiveness, intelligence and sexual presence is very desireable indeed.

    2. 2.2
      sylvana

      I actually think hotness has pretty much nothing to do with looks at all. It’s all in the attitude. Just because someone is beautiful doesn’t mean he/she is sexually attractive at all.

      Likewise, a traditionally unattractive person can still be totally hot, aka arousing.

  3. 3
    Emily, the original

    This is interesting, but I don’t think this is telling women anything new. There are certain women men see as “marriage material” and certain women men as “sex partner material.” Not all that different in how some women characterize men.

    1. 3.1
      ezamused

      I don’t know any guys that think like this. I think there are woman men see as “sex partner material” and there is a subset of those woman who men see as “girlfriend material”. They are definitely not mutually exclusive.

      1. 3.1.1
        Emily, the original

        ezamused,

        I think there are woman men see as “sex partner material” and there is a subset of those woman who men see as “girlfriend material”. They are definitely not mutually exclusive.

        That’s good to know. I’d personally like to see a man as both — sex partner material and boyfriend material. I mean, if you’re going to be with someone, don’t you want to find them hot?

  4. 4
    Gala

    Is this groundbreaking? Eye roll. This is what my mom taught me when i hit puberty: men want hot and lose girls to screw with but different kind of girls for their wives. My mom is not an evolutionary biologist. Just a woman with common sense and life experience.

    I will say it again, the younger generation of girls in america has been totally screwed by their mothers, who apparently didn’t teach the the basics of male behavior. This produces these cringe-worthy stories like the one of Anziz Ansari and toxic gender wars.

    1. 4.1
      sylvana

      I think it’s not so much that they weren’t taught the basics of male behavior. But rather that they have no interest in putting up with said behavior.

      In a time were women earn their own living, are encouraged to be free in their sexuality, and have a ton of toys, even f..king machines available (not to mention the risks of STDs and unwanted pregnancy despite birth control), all the effort involved in meeting a man’s standards and desires is becoming more of a headache than it is worth.

      I can’t say I blame the younger generation.

      1. 4.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Sylvana

        If what you wrote holds (and I have no reason to believe that it does not), how do you explain younger men having absolutely no interest in actually courting a woman?  Young men seem to put very little effort into dating.  It appears to be a “Netflix and chill” culture.

        1. sylvana

          @YAG,

          honestly, I’d say because reality does not hold up to what young men can find online.

          They can have all their ultimate fantasies fulfilled through porn and masturbation. It’s a very quick, and very easy reward. Very unlike the effort they’d have to put in in reality, the rejection they’d encounter in reality, not to mention reality itself (a person who is not as hot, not as willing to do as you please, etc.).

          They get to cater to just their own desires, rather than having to consider someone else’s desires or feelings.

          And I actually think fear of STDs and unwanted pregnancy (and likely marriage failure rates and a feeling of uncertainly when it comes to career/ability to provide) play a role for young men as well.

          Overall, with the internet making it easier and easier to “live out” one’s wildest fantasies, I’ll think we’ll start seeing less and less actual interaction between the genders.

          Men have always been known for fantasizing about other women and sleeping with other women, even if they were in relationships. Now, they don’t even have to use their imagination anymore. It’s all there on screen. So why bother with the real thing, if reality is not likely to live up to any of their expectations – or to what they can find online?

          I can somewhat relate. I love porn, and toys. But once you get going with that, you start feeling less and less motivation to actually find a real partner. It becomes a choice of spending hours of effort and taking relatively strong risks just to get something that might or might not satisfy you (if you end up getting it at all), or clicking the mouse a few times, and finding pleasure exactly the way you like – no effort, no risk at all.

          Also, in a world were the younger generation holds little hope for the future, the constant rejection men endure when they actually pursue women is just another added negative. The occasional reward of “conquering” is just not worth it in light of everything else. In contrast, the feel-good hormones released through masturbation and porn (or other visual stimulation) give you that quick, pleasurable high.

          In a sense, it is just another escapist tool. Just like Netflix, online games, etc. The drive to better your own reality comes from the hope that there IS a better reality.

          But with everything available to us online these days (not just porn), even a good reality has a hard time comparing to the ideal of fantasies fulfilled. You can be whoever you want to be, live wherever, in whatever time you want, do what you want…even control other’s actions to shape the ideal that appeals to you. Reality cannot compete with that.

  5. 5
    kenley

    For me, the video highlighted the impact of context and progress.  I am 54 and when I was growing up, the number one and only reason that my mother told me not to have sex was to avoid getting pregnant.  End of story.  It wasn’t because my feelings might get hurt or that I should be in love.  It was simply don’t get pregnant because it will ruin your live if it happens before you get married.   Enter reliable and affordable birth control and that number one goes away.  In the video, they are arguing that because so many women are now open to having sex without commitment that it is such a evolutionary win for men, that it is now the reproductive strategy that men pursue first….this idea of very consistent with Evan’s men look for sex and find love idea.  Moreover, our culture’s emphasis on women needing to be hot also triggers men to want to have sex first. So, basically they are saying that modern times provide a context in which for men, it is all about sex….at first.  And, its not really their fault, that is how they are hardwired.

    Gala, I don’t know this for certain, but despite the sexualized culture we live in, I don’t think parents really talk to their children about sex.

    1. 5.1
      sylvana

      But when has it ever really not been about sex for men? The only women who were ever really unavailable to men were the ones they might want to marry.

      Men have always kept mistresses, visited brothels, forced themselves on household staff or those of lower status, enjoyed “looser” women, etc. This is nothing new.

      Tons of children have always been born out of wedlock.

      The only difference nowadays is that even women who are looking to marry are willing to have sex before marriage.

       

      1. 5.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        “Tons of children have always been born out of wedlock.” That number is now 50% of all children born to 20-30 year olds and not just because men are all about sex, but because women want to have children and don’t see marriage or fatherhood as necessary to be mothers.

        1. sylvana

           
          True,
           
          marriage or fatherhood isn’t necessary for women to become mothers. 
           
          Sperm, however, IS absolutely necessary.
           
          A woman can want to have children until she turns blue, it’s not going to happen without a man choosing to introduce his sperm near her uterus (Or giving it to a clinic that deals with A.I. Unless she raped the man, or got really creative).
           
          So those 50% are born to women and men who don’t see marriage or fatherhood as necessary.
           
          If you want to get really technical, unless a woman rapes a man, or steals his sperm, she has absolutely ZERO choice in becoming pregnant. 
           
          The choice lies 100% with the producer of said sperm.
           
          The only thing the numbers really prove is that people are less likely to get married because of an unwanted pregnancy. 
          Men no longer feel obligated to do the “honorable” thing. Women are no longer willing to endure crappy relationships just for financial benefits.

          Overall, I can’t say I blame women, since most men no longer provide any security at all for the mothers of their children. Marriage and breeding used to mean that a woman was provided for for the rest of her life. With that removed, the negatives of being in a relationship/married often overrule the financial incentives. Even getting support for the children often takes a fight.

           
          I’m not arguing that more women are willing to have sex outside of wedlock than historically.
           
          Still, that doesn’t change the fact that men never needed marriage in order to get laid. And that it wasn’t really all that hard for an unmarried man to have sex. Or even a married one, with women other than his wife.
           
          The only thing that’s really changed is the way we look at prostitution. 
           
           
           
           

           

        2. Nissa

          Oooohh! Evan, could you invite Weinstein and Heying to do a podcast / youtube video with you? It would be awesome!!

  6. 6
    ezamused

    To me a woman being “hot” means how well she takes care of herself physically. If we take two versions of the same woman, version A and version B. Where version A eats poorly and has a sedentary lifestyle. And version B eats well and exercises the frequently. Version B is going to be “hot” while version A is a “not”. I think pretty much any woman can be “hot” if she takes really good care of herself. From my perspective an overweight woman can be beautiful but she will never be hot as long as she is overweight.

    1. 6.1
      Kenley

      Hot is simply a euphamism for fuckable.

      1. 6.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Kenley

        In my humble opinion, doable has lower threshold than hot with men.  There are lot of women I consider to be doable that are not hot.  The difference between doable and hot is desire. Guys will often pass on a doable woman, but few will pass on a hot woman.  However, then again, men generally have lower thresholds for doable than women.

    2. 6.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @ezamused

      From my perspective an overweight woman can be beautiful but she will never be hot as long as she is overweight.

      While I agree with you, a lot of women have no problem shaming a man who feels this way.

      1. 6.2.1
        ezamused

        Let them shame away. This is my truth and I’m not ashamed of what turns me on physically and what does not.

      2. 6.2.2
        sylvana

        Honestly, I’d have to say I have no problems with that, in itself, at all. Unless men get ugly about it (which they often do). If you don’t like what you see, just look away. No need to try to insult somebody.

        What I do have a problem with is that most men who make those statements seem to completely overlook their own love handles. No – they’re not anymore attractive on a man than on a woman, sorry.

        Nothing quirks me like a man stating a particular woman could stand to loose a few pounds, when all I want to ask is “when’s the last time you’ve taken a look in the mirror?” At least she only needs to loose a few. You, on the other hand, could well stand to loose 30 or 40.

        Same goes for women. I have no issues with a fat woman claiming she only likes in-shape men. You can’t help who you’re attracted to. I do, however, have a problem with her talking about a man in much better shape than her, and still criticizing him for his weight. That’s just ridiculous.

        Overall, there’s a big difference between stating what you like, and insulting others for the way they look.

        But this is another one of those issues that goes both ways. Men are shamed for desiring hot women, women are shamed for desiring tall, rich men. It is what it is.

        But the sad truth is, if men held themselves to the same standards of fitness they expect in women, there’d be a heck of a lot more hot men around.

         

         

         

  7. 7
    Gab

    I think it comes down to how objectively beautiful you are as well as age. Women who are an 8 or higher and are in their 20s will get enough male attention based on that alone. Women who are not objectively beautiful can gain attention by cultivating hotness. I call it the Kim Kardashian effect. Makeup, keeping weight down, hair, sexy clothes can take a 6 and get her noticed. Now the super important bit is what she DOES after getting noticed. The hotness is just a lure to give her an opportunity to show the guy her other qualities. She does not need to give him access to sex. He’s not thinking, “this is a hot not beautiful woman, therefore i expect to pump and dump”. Her behaviour will determine that. I watched this use of hotness in my cousin and her friends. All regular girls ranging from 5 to 8 in objective beauty. All channeling the KK effect throughout their teens to late 20s. All now with long term boyfriends, fiancees, husbands. At heart they are all traditional girls expecting the big white wedding, husband and babies, even though in my eyes they looked pretty tacky.

    I think women over 35 would do best cultivating their beauty, emotional insight, and sexual intelligence. That is far ‘hotter’ than the time limited hotness of youth. I also want to say Heather Heying is an example of an older woman who excudes these qualities (her soft husky voice doesn’t hurt either). Esther Perel is another.

    1. 7.1
      Emily, the original

      Gab,
      ” I watched this use of hotness in my cousin and her friends. All regular girls ranging from 5 to 8 in objective beauty. All channeling the KK effect throughout their teens to late 20s.”
      Women lead with the sex card in their teens and 20s because they get a lot of attention for it. Once you get into your 30s, the number of single people greatly diminishes, so you feel silly getting all sexed-up for a party if you’re one of the only single women there. It looks like you’re gunning for the husbands. And then it starts to be a waste of time, too. You still want to look nice, of course, but is there really any reason to get bedazzled, bepowdered and bejeweled for work, when there is no one there you want to date?

      1. 7.1.1
        Gab

        Emily, the original

        It sounds like you are living in a place without a lot going on. Would you consider moving to a more vibrant city? I think it’s so difficult starting over in a new place at a later age but it might be worth it in terms of increased social opportunities.

        As for clothes I’ve almost always liked to dress up but it’s for myself and in recent years, it’s probably on the whole more elegant or stylish though sometimes ‘hot’ too. For example in winter I’ll pair a long sleeve high neck grey fitted short dress with high heeled ankle boots and a nice coat and scarf… overall it’s an elegant look with a touch of hotness (legs showing). I’m 44 and am slim and youthful enough to get away with it but I daresay in a few years I’ll probably wear tights, not because I think my legs will drastically change, but more to avoid looking like an older woman trying too hard to look hot. Now I don’t think men my age would agree… I think men are actually much more generous in how they view women, and love a woman who is comfortable showing herself. My shift will be more for myself – that I value elegance over revealing too much skin in older women.

        1. Emily, the original

          Gab,

          It sounds like you are living in a place without a lot going on. Would you consider moving to a more vibrant city?

          I just moved where I am 5 months ago. Had to restart my career, so I’m here for at least another 7 months before I can begin looking for something else, and I think it will take a good 2 or 3 job changes after that before I will be paid enough to live in a bigger area.

          That being said, the town where I moved from had a lot going on. Tons of meetups and single people, but it was mostly women and men 20 years older or 20 years younger. When you go out and about in your daily life, are you meeting men who are the four A’s — appealing, available, age-appropriate and actionable … meaning, they ask you out?

        2. Gab

          Emily, the Original
          I haven’t done Meetups but a 35 yr old friend of mine has done loads and said the same. As to your second question re being approached by 4A men, the answer is emphatically no. I don’t think Australian guys tend to approach women unless it’s a bar type setting, and even then, people generally go with their friends so there isn’t a lot of intermingling going on except for in the much younger crowds (and then it’s usually drunks approaching drunks). The only guy that approached me during the day when I was out and about in the last 12 months was around 20 years old. Good on him for trying but no thanks. I have a boyfriend now who I met via Tinder but we live at a distance from one another, and neither of us is sure about what we want in the future, so I’m just enjoying his wonderful company now. But outside of online dating, I doubt very much I would be able to meet a man just going about my business, despite being slim, sexy, smart, solvent, and sane (5S’s 😉
          That said, I didn’t find online dating too disheartening. I wrote a funny and interesting profile, had some nice recent photos, and kept my interactions with people really positive. I kept an open mind as far as looks were concerned but kept the bar high in terms of their communication skills. I don’t care how attractive a man is, if his profile is empty and he can’t entertain me with his smarts and wit, then it’s a no go. I make it easy for them – I’m a great sparring partner – all they need to do is bounce off me, but of course it’s rare when someone actually can. My BF is very witty and well-written so I was almost instantly captivated. The problem with my strategy is that there are probably decent guys out there that are not great with their words. I’m not sure how to overcome that since for me, chemistry is much more about the words than their looks. I’ve dated short men, fat men, older men, and so on, because of how smart and funny they were, and conversely, found myself looking for the nearest exit with handsome but bland. I think neither looks nor words necessarily equates to long-term compatibility, so I probably do need to find a way to lower that bar so I can meet good guys who aren’t as eloquent.
          All in all I think it is a numbers game and as long as people are willing to keep positive and realistic as they cull, they’ll find someone decent at the end. I’ve online dated for 2 periods of about a month each. During each of those months I probably exchanged initial messages with 20 or 30 guys each time (culled from hundreds), had ongoing messaging with maybe 10, followed Evan’s advice by asking the guys for a phone chat, which resulted in meeting about 5 each time (total of 10 guys met). Of those I dated one lovely 57 year old for 3 months and my BF for the last 15 months. That’s about one month of ‘work’ per boyfriend. I don’t think it’s too bad a conversion rate. I should also add that I will regularly initiate first contact (why wait around when I can see who I want to talk to), have no problem giving out my number after a few days of texting, am comfortable talking about what each of us is looking for in a way that’s fun and non-judgmental, I ask a lot of questions – sometimes very confronting ones – so I learn a lot about potential dates, and I don’t follow any rules about when sex should be on offer (with my BF we texted for 8 days with one phone call, and had so much chemistry that I joked I’d be bringing my toothbrush to our first date – I ended up staying 2 nights!). Granted I was not looking for a husband specifically, though it would be lovely to meet someone for a long-term future. Rather, I just wanted to meet someone with whom I could have an emotional, intellectual and sexual connection with, monogamous, and not closed off about the future. Bingo.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          Tons of meetups and single people, but it was mostly women and men 20 years older or 20 years younger.

          I concur with your assessment.  I joined a couple of local Meetup groups looking for way to socialize with people my age.  I can obtain dates on dating sites.  What I desired was a group of people my age with whom to socialize. What I discovered is that while men sign up for groups in my area, they do not attend the functions.  I also discovered that women join groups as an alternative to joining a dating site.  For me, it was like walking into a den of hungry lionesses.  That is not remotely what I expected.

        4. Emily, the original

          Gab,

          But outside of online dating, I doubt very much I would be able to meet a man just going about my business, despite being slim, sexy, smart, solvent, and sane (5S’s 😉

          I’m four of those things!  🙂  (not sane, I mean)

          Thanks for sharing your story. It sounds like you have met someone you enjoy, but I think, outside of online, you just won’t meet anyone once you hit … certain decades of life. Geez, it was so easy in my 20s.  🙂   What did people do before online dating? Personal ads? Saying yes to anyone who was breathing, single and age-appropriate just because you so rarely met someone?

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Gab

          All in all I think it is a numbers game and as long as people are willing to keep positive and realistic as they cull, they’ll find someone decent at the end.

          I wish that more women acknowledged this reality.  However, the numbers you quoted are relatively small.  A guy with options will go through a much larger number of women before he finds one he wants to date more than one time.

        6. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          For me, it was like walking into a den of hungry lionesses.  That is not remotely what I expected.

          As you’ve attested many times. I don’t know how you walk the streets without getting attacked.

  8. 8
    Morgana

    I had the biggest crush on a guy–a charismatic teacher and guru in my industry–for YEARS.

    He finally asked me out on a date.

    Woo hoo!

    We went out for a romantic dinner, and my attraction to him evaporated the moment he told me how hot I was.

    To me “hot” is how a guy tells you you’d be a great sleeve for his penis.

    Beauty is admiration.

    I moved on immediately and have been happily married for years to someone who makes me feel beautiful.

    1. 8.1
      sylvana

      Very well said 🙂

      Hot is fun for a while. And it sure can make you a lot of money (which is actually rather pathetic. Still, women would be well-advised to take advantage of it while they can).

      But hot sure does get old. You’re much better off with a man who considers you beautiful. Find one who makes you feel beautiful, and you have a winner.

  9. 9
    Nissa

    I really enjoyed this podcast. What I wish they would have discussed a bit more, is that if a lady is interested in triggering the investment reproductive strategy (as many women clearly are), what behaviors would support that? My takeaway from this (at 7:55 & 9:35) is that using behaviors like makeup, high heels etc triggers the ‘non-commitment’ reproductive strategy in a way that a lot of people are not recognizing. Also, Bret mentions at the very end (10:15) that men are not searching for those two different triggers in the same woman.
    However, it will be obvious to every woman that the lack of those triggers results in almost no attention whatsoever, even in men that would be open to a commitment. This would support a dating strategy of using the triggers to attract attention, then switch to beauty triggers. And what would those beauty triggers look like? Weinstein mentions grace and poise, being a beautiful person. His definitions seem to put hotness as being the physical, with beauty being the emotional. I’m not sure I agree. I have seen people of both sexes that I would call physically beautiful, based on features that I prefer or simple symmetry. That might or might not describe that person’s soul or inner being.
    But this does bring up an interesting questions: what are the physical representations that can be easily seen, of grace, poise and being a beautiful person?
    And dang, they got off topic from minute 1:05 and didn’t fully discuss optimizing sexual pleasure via investment in the individual.

    1. 9.1
      Gab

      I wanted to hear more about this too but some of what I think it is is a kind of aliveness, a curiosity and openness to the world, a willingness to be open but have firm boundaries. Beautiful features is also beauty.

      I don’t think hotness is a problem if the woman doesn’t allow herself to be used.

  10. 10
    Nissa

    I also really wish there would be some discussion of the assumption of sexual symmetry and symmetry being equality as discussed at 1:07: meaning, that because men value sex with multiple partners / strangers, that women will value it too.

    This really resonates with me, because I don’t think the choice to not have sex until commitment, especially the legal commitment of marriage, IS seen as equal. Having sex with strangers is equal, and even being non sexual longer before becoming sexual is equal. But not having sex is not even considered an option for most adults. It’s considered aberrant behavior. Yet Weinstein is clearly pointing out that delayed gratification is the key to optimizing sexual pleasure by cultivating a relationship.

     

  11. 11
    John

    The way I see it is “hotness” is a fleeting sexual attraction.

    When I see a beautiful, feminine woman who loves being a woman, I stand in awe and true chivalry comes forward from me and she makes want to be a better man.

  12. 12
    Gab

    Sorry I can’t seem to reply to the relevant thread on my phone (no reply button on some messages).

    @ Emily, the Original

    I agree, it’s really rare to meet men offline when you’re in your 40s. So that leaves online dating which aint a bad thing as long as one can maintain a positive mindset. Of course the other consideration is whether you will date someone with or without children. When I dated, I refused to date childless men as I was concerned they might one day want kids (I’m done), or they would not be interested in cohabiting with a mother (although at this stage I don’t want to, I’d like it to be an option later). My at the time childless best friend ended up marrying a father with full custody when she was in her late 30s. She did go on to have a child with him and is still in love with him, but has emphatically stated that if she could go back in time she would not have got involved with him due to clashes with one of his children.

    @ Yet Another Guy

    If not a numbers game how on earth do they  view it? Thinking in this way is what makes it ok. Sure some guy I had a pleasant date with ended up not trying to make plans for more dates despite saying he wanted to see me again. If he’s just a number (until he becomes more), then it’s easy to think Next and not get caught up in why.

    I agree the numbers are undoubtedly a lot higher for men. I’m great friends with my ex-husband and he recently started online dating for the first time. He is a very smart, average looking, non-alpha man, but he’s been going against his nature and instead following red pill strategies to date. The results are pretty impressive. He’s actually kind of disillusioned about what his experiences tell him about women. He’s found women seem to be less responsive when he is himself (he is actually a really interesting conversationalist), whereas if he’s a bit flip and makes fun of them they’ll virtually tell him the colour of their underwear. He’s meeting women but I think is getting tired of not being himself, and he’s a man who is looking for a relationship. It’s a numbers game for everyone.

    1. 12.1
      Emily, the original

      Gab,

      She did go on to have a child with him and is still in love with him, but has emphatically stated that t if she could go back in time she would not have got involved with him due to clashes with one of his children.

      This is exactly what worries me about dating a man with kids. Your life suddenly revolves (or at least your relationship does) around his kids and his kids’ schedules. It’s a lot to ask of somebody.

      1. 12.1.1
        sylvana

        Emily,

        I couldn’t even imagine. I never wanted to have kids, and really don’t even like kids. So dating a man with kids was never an option for me. I always, absolutely refused.

        Sadly, even in my 20s, most men I met already had children (and they were in they’re 20s as well). The few who didn’t definitely wanted them (and this persisted through my 30s).

        As you get older, it becomes almost impossible to find a man who doesn’t already have children, let alone one who doesn’t want to have any.

        As much as women are often “blamed” for being the ones who want children, it’s seem rather rare to encounter a man who hasn’t already bred, or is fully expecting a woman to breed for him at some point.

         

        1. Emily, the original

          Sylvana,

          As you get older, it becomes almost impossible to find a man who doesn’t already have children, let alone one who doesn’t want to have any.

          That’s the problem. Even if they are older and out of the house, they are a big part of someone’s life. The person who has them will want to talk about them, and the other party is expected to listen and care. Which is reasonable but I’m just not family-oriented.

    2. 12.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Gab

      I am convinced that online dating sites make some women lose their minds.  Women who list that they are emphatically not looking hookup go into full arousal mode if they meet a guy who is checks off their boxes, is attractive enough, and masculine enough to be a challenge.  I have been amazed by the number of women who have “not looking for hookups” on their profiles that offered sex on the first date.  At first, it was a “‘Toto, I’ve a feeling we’re not in Kansas anymore” experience.  Now, it no longer fazes me.  It is like Jeremy often writes.  Never listen to what a woman is saying.  Listen to what her body language is saying.

      1. 12.2.1
        Gab

        I don’t think they’re “losing their mind”. They write that to dissuade guys asking for sex off the bat. I personally would not write anything about what I don’t want in my profile. Sounds too negative. Just cull as I go.

        Do you tell these women that you are not looking for long term? I wonder if that would make a difference?

        1. Selena

          Gab: Re: YAG

          “Do you tell these women that you are not looking for long term? I wonder if that would make a difference?”

          I was thinking along the same lines.

          YAG, you write here that you get sexually bored with women within 3 months. That you don’t have a desire to get into a long term emotional relationship.

           

          Given those two things, I wonder why you bother contacting women who state things in on online dating profile like “No hookups”.

           

          Aren’t there internet sites for folks who ARE looking for hookups, short term dating? I remember reading about Adultfriendfinder over 15 years ago.

          Maybe the women you are meeting are disingenuous… but aren’t you as well? Perhaps even more so?:

           

      2. 12.2.2
        Nissa

        @YAG,

        How would you feel if a woman said, “Never listen to what a man is saying”. It’s an overly general statement. It’s like saying “Men never listen”.

        It’s much closer to the truth to say “some women act and speak inconsistently, some of the time”. It’s much closer to also say “some men listen in varying amounts at different times based on different inputs”. It’s the same thing.

        It seems to me that when they are saying, they are not looking for hookups, that’s still true. How many times have we seen Evan say, he was cool with hooking up, but his intention was to use that hookup as part of getting to know someone and hopefully finding a life partner? Just because Evan’s a man doesn’t make it different.

        If you stop calling these ladies, it makes it pretty hard for them to continue to pursue the relationship, because the norm is for the man to purse and the woman to respond. You might argue, “hey, she should be calling me, pursuing me” – but not only is that an unfeminine behavior, it is an extremely ineffective behavior for women. It’s off putting to most men to have a woman chase him. Therefore, it is more likely that these ladies you dated genuinely had hopes of more than a hookup, hopes for a real relationship – that were dashed when they were rejected as “not relationship material”.

        It seems we are back at the Madonna /whore dilemma.

        1. Shaukat

          “it is an extremely ineffective behavior for women. It’s off putting to most men to have a woman chase him.”

          It’s not off-putting, and plenty of women, especially younger women, do this if they’re interested. This is just something certain women say as a defense mechanism to avoid rejection.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Nissa

          It’s like saying “Men never listen”.

          There is more than grain of truth to that assertion. Men do in fact not listen to women, at least not the way women desire them to listen.

        3. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          It’s not off-putting, and plenty of women, especially younger women, do this if they’re interested.

          I agree with you. I don’t know what the big deal is for women to go after the men they want. What is she supposed to do, will the man she wants to her with her mind? (As has been written here, women’s interest signals are often not picked up by men.) Now, once she makes her interest known — hands him the phone number, makes a blatant come-on (whatever her intentions are)–I do think he needs to pick it up from there.

        4. Nissa

          @Shaukat, the men that like women to chase them, are usually either not very confident or willing to accept whatever sexual favors a woman offers to him because she’s there and convenient – not because he particularly likes her.

          In those cases, the woman wouldn’t need to be worried about rejection, because men almost never reject women who make advances on them. A man who is married or involved might reject them, but he will do so after letting a woman spend time throwing herself at him, because everyone likes to have their ego massaged. Men who are available will take what’s offered….but it’s very unlikely that she is his first pick, so sooner or later the woman gets cheated on or dumped and wonders why.

          I’d actually be thrilled if that worked, because I’m a very direct person, but unfortunately I have observed it to not be so.

        5. Shaukat

          @Nissa,

          A man would still be willing to contact a woman and take her on a few dates just to secure sex, so that’s irrelevant. You didn’t frame in those terms either, you said that it’s off-putting to men when women initiate contact. I’m saying no man was ever turned off by a woman he was interested in initiating contact. And I’m not saying she has to ask him out–just making contact and chatting between dates and making her interest known.

          @Emily

          Agree completely.

        6. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          .but it’s very unlikely that she is his first pick, so sooner or later the woman gets cheated on or dumped and wonders why.

          It’s no different than when a man approaches a woman. He has no idea where he falls in terms of her first pick, second pick, etc. For all he knows, he’s not even on the playing field for her.

          willing to accept whatever sexual favors a woman offers to him because she’s there and convenient – not because he particularly likes her.

          Again, it’s the same for men. He doesn’t know if she’s saying yes because she really likes him or because he’s the one who asked. That’s a chance the one who approaches takes.

      3. 12.2.3
        sylvana

        YAG,

        well…I don’t really think they were lying when they said they weren’t looking for a hookup.

        Not looking for a hookup is quite different from not willing to have hookup sex at all.

        If they were just looking for a hookup, they’d be looking for a totally different type of man.

        Women aren’t all that different from men. And if she dismisses the person she met as not being interested enough in a relationship with her, not likely to lead to a serious relationship, or not suitable/a good match for a relationship, she’s pretty likely to bed him for fun, as long as his sexual value is appealing to her.

        If it turns into a relationship – fine. If not, at least she had fun.

        That still doesn’t mean her original intention was just a hookup. It also doesn’t mean she’d be willing to have a string of hookups. Neither does it mean she is willing to meet men who want nothing but a hookup.

        Looking for a relationship rather than a hookup doesn’t mean a woman can’t have a one-nighter if the circumstances are right.

  13. 13
    Marika

    YAG

    Are you aware that in pretty much all your posts about dating you have a dig at women while subsequently complimenting yourself? Why? What are you (constantly) trying to prove?

    1. 13.1
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      Are you aware that in pretty much all your posts about dating you have a dig at women while subsequently complimenting yourself? Why? What are you (constantly) trying to prove?

      The last guy I spent time with started to occasionally pepper into his conversation stories about all the other women who wanted him. While I’m guessing he was trying to make himself sound more desirable, his speeches had the opposite effect — he came off as deeply insecure and more than likely dishonest: People who do well with opposite sex don’t brag about it all the time. They don’t have to. 

    2. 13.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Marika

      Building my own ethos is not my goal.  I was merely attempting to demonstrate behavior where what a woman says and what she does are completely different using my experiences. Should I start posting only those experiences where I flamed out?  I was also calling attention to what I believe is bizarre behavior.  Men do not play those games.

      Can you explain why so many women emphatically list “no hookups,” but the only thing that appears to be on their mind after meeting is hooking up? If woman lists “no hookups,” she should mean it.  A lot of women use that phrase as a safety net just like “friends first.” What they really mean is no hookups or friends first unless they want to have sex with you, and then the rule book is thrown out of the window.  All this behavior does is confuse men.  If I meet a woman who states “no hookups” in her profile, I am doing so because I believe that she is a woman who makes all men wait.  To discover that she is using the phrase as a safety net makes me feel like I was duped because any woman I meet from a dating site who will sleep with me on the first date has slept with other men on the first date, and she probably does so on a regular basis.  Evan is correct in his assertion that men are more willing to invest in a woman who makes men wait; however, I will extend that assertion to include the the word “all” before the word “men.”  Women are the gatekeepers to sex; therefore, giving it away for free is the equivalent of a clingy guy who offers commitment with no work.  Women either use that kind of guy for what they can get from him, or they run away as quickly as possible. That is no different than what guys do when a woman offers sex quickly.  I will add my own assertion to Evans.  Women are more willing to invest in a man if they know that he makes all women wait for commitment.  Seeking commitment from a man who does not commit easily is the driving force behind the bad boy.

      Back to online dating being a numbers game, online dating is serial dating by default. Any woman who expects a man to only be talking to her after he opens a conversation through the time that they meet does not belong on a dating site (the same thing applies if the genders are reverse).

      1. 13.2.1
        Marika

        YAG

        Men do not play those games.

        You couldn’t be more wrong. People often don’t know what they want. People say one thing and do another. Men say they don’t want anything serious, then marry the minute someone really turns their head. Or date two women at once, telling one one thing and the other something else entirely.

        We find your behaviour just as confusing as you find ours. That’s why this blog exists.

      2. 13.2.2
        Kenley

        Jeez, YAG, can you just cut wome some slack?  As you remind us at almost every turn, men will date down for sex while women won’t.  So, just how often do you think women in our age group meet men they actually want to have sex with.  I’ll tell you — not very often.  I haven’t met a man that I have wanted to have sex with in nearly 2 years.  So, when a woman finally does meet at man, can you forgive her if she gives in to a very primal urge.   She’s super thirsty and needs to drink!

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Kenley

          So, when a woman finally does meet at man, can you forgive her if she gives in to a very primal urge.   She’s super thirsty and needs to drink!

          Lol!  Maybe what you are saying holds when meeting in real life where opportunities are limited, but I do not think that it works that way on dating sites.  I do not believe for a minute that a woman can go for two years without finding a guy with whom she wants to have sex on a dating site.  I have a lot of competition in my area.  There are better looking and more successful guys in my age cohort in my area, that is, if they look like their photos in person and their profiles are not examples of creative writing (yes, I check out my competition).  While most guys are selective when it comes to commitment, few are selective when it comes to sex, so a woman on a dating site only has herself to blame for being thirsty in this way.  🙂

        2. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          While most guys are selective when it comes to commitment, few are selective when it comes to sex, so a woman on a dating site only has herself to blame for being thirsty in this way.  🙂

          Finding a man to have sex with is not difficult. Finding a man she really wants to have sex with is something altogether different.

      3. 13.2.3
        Sandra

         To discover that she is using the phrase as a safety net makes me feel like I was duped because any woman I meet from a dating site who will sleep with me on the first date has slept with other men on the first date, and she probably does so on a regular basis.

        Not the case at all.  I am not as articulate or literate in psychology to make a convincing argument, but one has nothing to do with the other beyond mere circumstance.

        Based on the age group of women you are likely dating YAG, and if you are as attractive and charming as you claim, then you may be the first “doable” man a woman has met.  She may have a dating stretch of such duds that she gets caught up in the moment.  I do not know what happens on your dates with these women, but it seems like it just sort of happens and these women may actually be hoping for something more.  They may not view it as a hookup and feel hurt when it goes no further.

        Not saying it is an effective strategy, just they get lost in the excitement.

      4. 13.2.4
        PacNW Love

        YAG, I thought you said that a woman having sex with you early on in the relationship when she usually makes men wait was the ultimate compliment to you and you liked that, rather than having you wait while she’s having sex with other men. But now you’re saying that when she does have sex with you early on when she had earlier said “no hookups” because it was her plan to make all men wait but instead she was so attracted to you that she broke her own rule, that this act of early sex will lead you to assume she does this with all men and she is really a slut in sheep’s clothing and now you feel “duped.”

        You can’t have it both ways. You can’t push for early sex because it makes you feel special, and then judge her for the early sex and feel it makes you NOT special. It makes you sound sexist and like you have hangups about women and sex: very Madonna/whore. If you have those hangups, I would encourage you to explore them in order to discontinue this judgement. If you don’t have those hangups, then you should think about why you’ve made statements that sound like you do.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @PacNW

          You can’t have it both ways. You can’t push for early sex because it makes you feel special, and then judge her for the early sex and feel it makes you NOT special.

          In these cases, I did not push for sex. They assumed that we were going to have sex, and were surprised when I politely passed on the offer.  If a woman states that she is not looking for hookups, I take her at her word.  I am dating her with the assumption that she makes all men wait.  There is a difference between having sex early in the relationship and offering sex on the first date.  I never push for sex on the first date, nor do I take a woman up on the offer of sex on the first date (it is not a healthy practice).A woman who uses the term “no hookups” loses credibility when she flips on the first date.  Men assume that she is either using the phrase as safety net or to project that she is more chaste than is reality because women know that men prefer women who are not easy to obtain sexually.

          That being said, I do not have a problem with a woman who makes men wait.  I have a problem with women who makes me commit for sex and not other men.  That may sound like I am playing with semantics, but it am not.  It is no different than a woman who gets upset because a man committed early to another woman, but not her, and she wants him to do so.  How many times have we read posters to this blog complain about how a guy they could not get to commit committed very shorty after meeting his next woman?  A man committing quickly to the next woman he meets does a number on the woman he dated earlier that sought commitment.

      5. 13.2.5
        sylvana

        YAG,

        men do not play those games? Ha! If I had a penny for every time a man said “No sex, I won’t bother you, don’t worry”, then ended up with his paws all over me anyway, I’d be filthy rich.

        Pretty much every time a man mentions no pressure of sex, you know he’s lying, because he’s bound to try anyway.

        Women are the gatekeepers to sex; therefore, giving it away for free is the equivalent of a clingy guy who offers commitment with no work. 

        Let’s not compare apples to oranges here – aka sex to commitment.

        Let’s compare just the equivalents: A man’s sexual behavior vs. a woman’s sexual behavior.

        A woman giving sex away for free is the equivalent of a man giving sex away for free. NOT commitment. And men are about the cheapest sex you can find.

        Technically, if you want to use your gatekeeper term, that makes men not just cheap, but absolutely desperate for sex. Yikes!

        So now we have two people meeting, and she already knows that there is pretty much a guarantee that he’s been giving it out for free left and right (since he’s a man).

        So if she were to hold him to the same standard men want to hold her to, she’s going into this meeting already disgusted with his sexual history. Because, being a man, he’s cheap to obtain.

        Still, she is supposed to swallow her disgust, and try to live up to his expectation of her being “expensive” to obtain sexually. And lord forbid if she doesn’t. Classic case of “do as I say, not as I do.”

        I had 1000 one-night stands. But that whore dared to offer sex on the first date. She is just as cheap as I, so I don’t want her for a wife.

        Once again, it is what it is. That’s what men like.

        What baffles me is why in the world men think that the fact that men are beyond cheap when it comes to sex should be in any sort of way attractive to a woman.

        If women started judging men by the same standard, 90% of the male population would instantly disqualify as any sort of relationship material.

        As a matter of fact, the whole “being the gatekeepers” thing rather much makes a woman lose all respect for men when it comes to sex. It puts the woman in the position of ultimate power. He’s so desperate, he’ll pay whatever price I demand in order to get laid. Pathetic.

        The other thing that baffles me is why men love illusions so much. Why do you encourage the same lies and games you hate so much?

        By your logic, a woman can pick up all her one-night stands and hookups in bars, in person, or on dating sites designed for sex, and it’s all good. As long as she doesn’t have sex on the first (of first few) dates with a person she met through an ad that stated “not looking for hookups”. Because, instead of being honest about her sexuality, she needs to hold up pretenses in order to land a relationship.

        No hookups basically means just that. She’s not looking for just sex, and she’s not going on the date with the sole intend to get laid.  If she does offer sex, she did not deceive the man or play a game. She merely found someone attractive enough to have sex with despite the fact that she didn’t meet the man just to have sex.

        But men would rather the woman pretend to be all coy and truthfully deceive them into thinking she is more “expensive” to obtain. No matter what her actual history is, as long as she pretends and plays the game with the one she dates, it’s all good.

        Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

        Overall, you/men want to work for sex, so women have to play the game. And at the same time, you/men still want women to have respect for you, despite the fact that you’re working for it?

        Basically, you’re not just free (with her and plenty of others), but actually willing to pay for it, and as such, coming at a woman from a totally submissive position.

        Personally, I much prefer my men on equal terms. No games needed. Or fight another male for the right to breed.

        Women are more willing to invest in a man if they know that he makes all women wait for commitment.

        And just how would a woman know that? Unless she heard it from all his exes, she doesn’t know anything at all. A woman is more likely to think he’s not all that interested in her if he waits to commit to her than to think he makes all women wait for commitment. I guess we’re not as gullible as men when it comes to the whole waiting thing.

         

        1. kenley

          You, Sylvana, are my new girl crush!

          One thing that I find ridiculous in this whole I don’t respect women who have sex on the first date is that they expect them to have sex on the third date and that’s ok.  Let’s be honest there really is no substantive difference between date one and date three.  You don’t really know a person better by date three.  It’s all just a ridiculous game.

          Finally, the I think people are holding up porn to be something that it really isn’t.  And, I am saying this a women who watches porn.  Porn is NOT a truly satisfying substitute for having sex with a real partner and anyone who feels it is, hasn’t had great sex with a real human being.  The notion that men don’t need women because they have porn is not true. Today the number one killer of young men is suicide.  And there is the belief that part of the despair is being disconnected from people, from women; from meaning.   While women may not be committing suicide, isolation is taking a toll on them too.  So, even though I don’t think I am going to find someone at this point in my life, I wish people would stop trying to promote the idea that men and women don’t need each other.  We do.  And if we want to continue to live in a half way decent society, we do need to do something to repair this “war” that seems to be occurring between men and women.

        2. Selena

          Kenley:

          One thing that I find ridiculous in this whole I don’t respect women who have sex on the first date is that they expect them to have sex on the third date and that’s ok.  Let’s be honest there really is no substantive difference between date one and date three.  You don’t really know a person better by date three.  It’s all just a ridiculous game.

          What I find ridiculous is when men on the internet assert that if a woman doesn’t have sex by the third date she is not attracted/interested in them and never will be. “In my experience” is a phrase often tacked on to give credence to this belief.

           

          I always wonder – in “his experience” has a woman who had sex with him on date 1-3 never bailed/ stopped responding to him shortly thereafter? Not wanting to see someone or even communicate with them, seems like a clear case of Not Interested to me. How does someone who thinks sex=irresistible attraction/interest (on the woman’s part, not necessarily theirs) explain away the subsequent dumping?

          And did these same fellows never, ever get to know someone for more than 3 dates without sex and have a relationship develop anyway?? Did they never date someone they got to know through school/work/neighborhood/mutual friends/social situations where attraction and interest have a chance to build up naturally before there even is a first date?

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Kenley

          The notion that men don’t need women because they have porn is not true.

          I would beg to differ with you.  I used porn as way to survive a loveless/sexless marriage.  Today, I actually prefer it to sex. Porn does not ask anything from me.  I get to concentrate solely on my pleasure. I get novelty every time.  The women in porn are significantly hotter than the women in my age cohort (I am not about to deal with younger woman drama just to have a hotter woman).  Porn is a fantasy world that the real thing cannot come close to matching.  Porn causes a dopamine flood that cannot be matched by the real thing. That is why so many men become addicted to porn.

        4. Emily, the original

          Sylvana,
          YAG wrote: Women are more willing to invest in a man if they know that he makes all women wait for commitment.
          Sylvana wrote: And just how would a woman know that? Unless she heard it from all his exes, she doesn’t know anything at all.
          I’m sure you’ve heard of the ALL POINTS FEMALE BULLETIN that goes out daily to half the world’s population!  🙂   It tells women which men to value and which men to dump. Just as the ALL POINTS MALE BULLETIN tells a man if the woman has is currently dating has had sex with previous dates sooner in the dating process than she did him. It’s ALL a matter of public record.

        5. Tron Swanson

          Emily,

          You’re being glib, but I think that the satirical “bulletin” you’re describing has a basis in reality.

          Though I personally believe that gender differences are overblown, I’ve found that men and women tend to pay attention to specific things, and that they’re very good at picking up on super-subtle details. When I’ve been out in public with women, they’ve noticed things that I never would have. They’ll say, “Oh, that guy has money” because of his watch or shoes or something else I’d never think to look at. And it’s amazing how much women know about other people’s career progression. If some guy I barely know got a promotion a year ago, I may have forgotten, but my FWB absolutely remembers that I mentioned it. And they’re somehow aware of the benchmarks that need to be hit in various industries. If I know a real estate agent or an office worker or whatever, they’ll say, “Oh, shouldn’t he have ____ by now? He must not be doing so well”–and they’ll say it in a kind of concerned, not-impressed way.

          In short, the women I know keep track of men’s status and success, using observation, secondhand information, and all sorts of social cues. In most cases, I don’t think they’re even doing it consciously, it’s just biological instinct. Let me tell you, men are the same way with women and sexual willingness.

          No detective skills required here; the women I know tend to overshare, and forget that they’re talking to heterosexual men that may be interested in them. Sometimes they’re doing it on purpose, I think, but other times, they’re just being inconsiderate and not really thinking. And don’t forget, many of us are friends before the relationship moves to the next level. So we’ve already heard the stories. “Yeah, I slept with him after the first date, I guess I shouldn’t have done that.” “Oops, my boss is married and I’m banging him, don’t know how that happened.”

          Even if you haven’t told us directly, well, women love showing each other how happy they are, so we may have heard it from women you gossiped with. As with women, it isn’t something we consciously try to do, we just kind of absorb the information. Even the most socially-challenged men tend to be good at recognizing patterns and analyzing details. When we know, based on your own words and/or actions, that you gave Guy A a chance, while you outright ignored Guy B…well, if Guy A is what you claim not to want, while Guy B is the opposite, it tells us everything we need to know. And when you tell us that you don’t sleep with guys early, but we know you sleep with guys early if you really want to **** them, that tells us how you really feel about us.

        6. Emily, the original

          Tron,
          And don’t forget, many of us are friends before the relationship moves to the next level. So we’ve already heard the stories. “Yeah, I slept with him after the first date, I guess I shouldn’t have done that.” “Oops, my boss is married and I’m banging him, don’t know how that happened.”
          I agree with you on this. I’ve had these kinds of conversations with men I saw as friends. I have never had those kinds of conversations with a man I was trying to get into bed. I find sexual bragging a turn off and I don’t want to be discussing another man with one I am currently interested in.
          . And when you tell us that you don’t sleep with guys early, but we know you sleep with guys early if you really want to **** them, that tells us how you really feel about us.
          I’m not sure what you mean by “us.” The guys these women are making wait for sex? Just from my own perspective, I’m not making these guys wait for sex. It’s not on the table. We’re friends. They’re talking to me about the women they’re dating/hooking up with.

          But there have been plenty of women on this site who have written that they make ALL men wait. So there’s no universal female behavior.

        7. Emily, the original

          Selena,

          I always wonder – in “his experience” has a woman who had sex with him on date 1-3 never bailed/ stopped responding to him shortly thereafter? Not wanting to see someone or even communicate with them, seems like a clear case of Not Interested to me. How does someone who thinks sex=irresistible attraction/interest (on the woman’s part, not necessarily theirs) explain away the subsequent dumping?

          We had a lengthy discussion on another thread about how a woman’s willingness to go to bed with a man early in the dating process or quickly after meeting him does not automatically mean she’s really into him sexually. It can mean that, of course, but women have sex for a variety of reasons, and some never have sex early in the process. I would think that a woman who had sex early and then dumped the guy shortly after that either didn’t enjoy the sex or found something out about him she didn’t like or both.

        8. sylvana

          Kenley, YAG,

          I agree with both of you when it comes to porn. YAG pretty much stated the same that I said in response to his question why the younger generation of men no longer seek out women for sex.

          As a woman who loves porn, I agree with him 100%.

          On the other hand, Kenley also has a point. Like any other form of escapism, it can lead to social isolation, or in case of porn, withdrawal from seeking intimate, human contact. And, as such, it is responsible for the higher and higher numbers of depression.

          Selena, Kenley

          I think overall, we’d have a lot easier time at relationships if all those “rules” or “etiquettes” around sex were removed. As of right now, it’s a matter of darned if you do, darned if you don’t. There is no winning in this game. Everyone should just be true to themselves, and the right person will be perfectly alright with it either way. If not, they’re not the right person. That simple.

      6. 13.2.6
        Nissa

        @YAG, this honestly makes me wonder if the women in question think that if they throw sex at you, you will like them and want a relationship.

        As someone who doesn’t want hookups, and doesn’t plan to have sex with anyone without commitment, I have thought long and hard what to put in an online profile about that. Now, I wouldn’t say anything about sex, but I would stress deeply my interest in an LTR/marriage. While I commiserate with your experience, I suppose all we can each do is our best. Surely, there is something you can put in your profile to, er, discourage these ladies from getting sexual so quickly?

        I have to admit, I finally decided that there was literally nothing I could say that wouldn’t offend somebody, or cause them to get the wrong idea. I have settled for non verbal communication (and frankly, I think men prefer non verbal communication). By that I mean, when I meet a man, I am very interested and friendly, but what I’m not doing is showing cleavage, touching him or using sexual innuendo at all. I smile, look him in the eye and tell him that I am glad to see him, appreciate him, etc.

        I do agree with you that communication happens on both a verbal and non verbal level, and that men pay a LOT more attention to what is happening non verbally. That’s how I can get away with telling a man straight out, that I have fun with him, that I like what he’s wearing, and things like “who wouldn’t want to spend time with a guy like you”? But I only know this because I’ve made the mistake of touching a man in whom I have no sexual intention, only to have him pounce on me, causing me distress. It’s because I am friendly, and have had men mistake that for sexual intention more times than I can count – because it’s what they are interested in, and they are open to, so they just assume I feel the same way.

        People in general assume the people they like, like them back. My best advice is to ask them a most old fashioned question: what are your intentions, madam?

      7. 13.2.7
        Mrs Happy

        Hi YAG,

        I’ve been thinking about your situations over the last week.  I wrote a long entry to you last week but it disappeared without being posted so my mind didn’t get to stop.

        I don’t know where you live wrt the legalities of escorts etc.  One of my ex-boyfriends when he was single used escorts and prostitutes a lot, so I got to know a little about it.  You two had similar early career backgrounds, where it’s reasonably openly accepted.

        Using high-class ladies would almost guarantee you the things you want – endless variety of women, high physical quality, and ladies very skilled in the sexual arts.  You’d be able to avoid the negatives which distress you – the unfit, poor quality starfish lovers, and sexual boredom through lack of variety of women.

        I don’t want to sound like a grocer, but there are ways to ethically source prostitutes, e.g. to maximise the likelihood of not using trafficked people, or coerced, unwell or damaged people.

        Anyway that seemed to me like an option to seriously consider.  Lots of disadvantages of course. But when I really want something and it’s important to me, I hire an expert in that area.  You want great quality sex and these beautiful women are the experts.

        But then I realised you are probably also searching for something other than sexual variety, fitness and expertise, otherwise you’d not be so upset when women misrepresented themselves and offered early sex.  I wonder whether on some level you are searching for a relationship too.  Some emotional connection and intimacy.  So I’ll keep thinking about it.  Your poly was an interesting idea.

        1. Tom10

          @ Mrs Happy
          “Using high-class ladies would almost guarantee you the things you want – endless variety of women, high physical quality, and ladies very skilled in the sexual arts.  You’d be able to avoid the negatives which distress you – the unfit, poor quality starfish lovers, and sexual boredom through lack of variety of women.”
           
          Lol.
           
          I don’t YAG’s dating goals are actually to satiate endless variety; rather to receive endless validation; to be reminded that due to his sheer winning combination of muscular good looks, height, education, smarts, hair and demographic profile how much of a catch he is. That women who don’t want hookups are so blown away by this combination that they are overwhelmed and do indeed hookup in spite of their best intentions.
           
          And then to remind us of same.
           
          Sleeping with prostitutes won’t offer any of this validation as they are simply motivated by money and couldn’t care less about his winning package. Therefore he won’t receive what he really wants from them and will remain unfulfilled.
           
          I know this for I struggle with the same issue. 🙁  The thought of using prostitutes makes me shudder.

        2. Adrian

          Hi Mrs Happy,

          I can’t speak for Yet Another Guy, but most men I know would not use an escort or a prostitute.

          Yes there are the obvious safety and legal reasons but from what I have observed the biggest reason is pride and confidence.

          The thought of having to pay for sex seems weak whereas the man who goes out and wins over a beautiful woman through his own skills, looks, and charm seems strong and confident.

          So yes of course we men love sex and the thought of getting easy sex should be a no brainer-again I can’t speak for Yet Another Guy-but at least in my social circle the guy who has to pay for what others can get for free is looked at as a weak loser.

          I wish I could think of something from the woman’s perspective so you could understand what I mean-logically I am sure you understand me but I meant emotionally understanding my perspective.

        3. kenley

          Mrs Happy,

          I wrote a post indicating that porn is not a great substitute for having sex with a real person. YAG replied with a fairly long list of why he did in fact strongly prefer it over sex with a real woman — endless variety, beautiful women with beautiful bodies, your every fantasy on the screen,  much more intense orgasms, and finally the ability to focus exclusively on his own pleasure.

          So, I really can’t make sense of him.  He doesn’t want a relationship.  He thinks women who offer sex on the first date are sluts although that’s actually all he wants.  He loves porn and thinks it is way better than sex with a real woman.  Then I truly don’t understand why he wants to date at all.

          After what seems like millions of posts on how he sacrificed and survived 10 years of a sexless marriage due to his wife withholding it, he recently wrote just one post where he says that it was he who stopped having sex due to the demands of his job, and when he finally went back to his wife, she was unreceptive. He didn’t say how long he did this but he wrote in that one and only  that HE started the no sex problem in his marriage.  However, if porn is so great, what’s the problem with a sexless marriage.  I just don’t get it.  And, I am finished trying largely because I am beginning to think that what he is writing just might be fiction.

           

           

        4. Jeremy

          @Tom, agree 100%.  It’s about a hunger for validation.

           

          Regarding porn, I agree with Kenley, but I think it’s nuanced.  Whether or not porn is a substitute for relationships depends on what the person wants.  When I was using porn because of my marital situation, it was not any sort of substitution.  My psyche longed for the release of sex, but also for emotional connection, validation of a partner, and all sorts of other things.  The release after porn use temporarily removed the burning intensity of frustration and exposed the aching loneliness beneath.  It was not more pleasant.  In fact, it was much worse.  But I can’t extrapolate that to all men or women because it presumes that an underlying feeling of loneliness actually exists.  That a desire for connection exists.  If neither of those things exist, if all it is is a search for release and novelty, porn will do better than flesh-and-blood.  I think most people are lonely, though.

  14. 14
    No Name To Give

    Coupling up is too hard. I weep for the culture.

  15. 15
    Marika

    YAG said 

     How many times have we read posters to this blog complain about how a guy they could not get to commit committed very shorty after meeting his next woman?  

    Some women may complain about this, but that doesn’t stop men from doing it. Equally all your myriad complaints about women won’t make them act as you wish.

    The blind spot here is that you seem to think women are the only ones who act inconsistently. That’s because you date women. Date men for a while and you’ll have just as many complaints…even you yourself flip around re what you want..to date, a relationship, short hook ups only, to pay, not pay, sexy on standby, then none, then maybe you’ll stay single. Like the rest of us, you’re human! Should women get the shits with you for being so, and complain about you ad nauseum on a blog?

    Or would you hope for some patience, empathy and humanity?

  16. 16
    Adrian

    Would someone explain what the couple on the video is saying the difference is?

    It seems to me that they are using physical traits to describe hotness and personality traits to describe beauty which to me is not an equal assessment and that is why it is throwing me off.

    Dealing with physical traits only are they saying Hot is sexual looks and Beauty is looks without sexaual appeal?

  17. 17
    Gab

    YAG on porn

    I disagree porn releases a dopamine hit bigger than real life sex. If you think that you’ve either not had an amazing sexual connection or you’re a dud lover. I enjoy porn and use it regularly as a masturbatory stimulus, but sex is another level all together. I lose all sense of time and place when I’m having sex with my BF, get as much or more pleasure out of giving him pleasure, and I love how seamlessly we flow between uninhibited hardcore f****** and sensual romantic lovemaking, with moments of humour where we’ll share a laugh at an awkward moment or a smile or even a fantasy. The orgasms for both of us are explosive and we lie entwined afterwards, talking, laughing, enjoying the connection. Both of us say we are having the best sex of our lives now, in our 40s rather than in our hotter teens, 20s or 30s.

    When you say you prefer porn to sex is that the kind of sex you’re referring to? What do you think it would take for you to have sex like that? What would you need to ‘give up’?

     

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