What Do Men Find Attractive?

What Do Men Find Attractive
175 Shares

First of all, what do you think defines attractive? It’s interesting because a guy friend of mine said his girlfriend would be what he would call pretty even though he didn’t think she fit the mold of what society called pretty. Does that mean there can be an openness to different types? I’ve wondered. Exactly what makes someone pretty? I know this is a sensitive question so no pressure in answering.

Second, for whatever it is, can guys learn to compromise on looks or be open to different types? I’ve wondered because I thought about something for me that was similar. I will it admit in high school I only went after the charming popular guys. The high school jocks. I could have said well I can’t help what I like right? Then I realized I was being superficial and should instead go after less superficial things. So I now have a crush on a guy (that’s another story) who is less of the charming type but very likable. I realized I should see what’s important. It seems your dating advice encourages women (chemistry vs compatibility something like that right?) to focus on those things over things that people value in a more superficial sense.

Lastly I’ve wondered how much of the obsession with finding a hot girl is really about attraction. It seems like it would be an of course, guys want the pretty girl because she is pretty right? Then I thought of my old high school crushes. I realized some of them I liked not really because of them, but actually because I enjoyed the praise I felt of having won the attention over of someone so impressive. It made me feel important. Really though, frankly I think it’s actually using someone. I’ve wondered if that’s something our society could work on.

Let me know what you think! Deep questions I know. No pressure in answering.

Kath

Three different questions. Three different answers.

  1. What do you think defines attractive? Can there be an openness to different types? Exactly what makes someone pretty?

The reason this one is tricky is because the answer is both objective AND subjective.

Objectively, there are traits that are almost universally considered attractive. Per Wikipedia:

Men, on average, tend to be attracted to women who have a youthful appearance and exhibit features such as a  symmetrical face,  full breasts, full lips, and a low waist-hip ratio. Women, on average, tend to be attracted to men who are both taller than they are as well as taller than other men, display a high degree of facial symmetry, masculine facial  dimorphism, and who have broad shoulders, a relatively narrow waist, and a V-shaped torso.

Sounds about right. Look at the cover of most beauty and fashion magazines and you’ll see a lot of stereotypically attractive people staring back at you.

At the same time, everybody has personal tastes and preferences. Some men like women who are curvy. Some men like women who have no body fat whatsoever. Some guys are turned on by fake boobs. Some guys are turned off by them. Some prefer tattoos and piercings. Some wouldn’t look twice. Some gentlemen prefer blondes. Some prefer ethnic. Go to Pornhub and take a look at what men look at. Top searches include: lesbian, hentai, MILF and step mom. There was almost equal representation of men looking up “mom” and “teen.” So when you ask “what’s attractive?” I would only point out that there are broad generalizations on what women and men find appealing — and there are lots of exceptions to those generalizations as well.

  1. Can guys learn to compromise on looks or be open to different types?

Yes, but it’s important we get our definitions straight. I don’t believe you can talk yourself into finding someone attractive. Attraction is not a choice; it’s a feeling. When any client of mine goes out with a guy where the chemistry is less than a 6, I tell her to move along. However, as burgeoning couples get closer and more intimate, there are many (if not most) of my clients who discover that their 6 can develop into an 8 or a 9.

To your original question, a man generally won’t compromise on looks in terms of going out with someone he doesn’t find physically appealing. But are guys open to different women who aren’t their “type?” Absolutely. When I was in high school, I was into skinny model-types from all the magazines and TV shows I consumed. Then I dated someone my senior year who was short and curvy and discovered I loved that, too. To this day, my favorite physical type is short, curvy, dark-skinned brunettes. Salma Hayek, Kim Kardashian, etc. I have NEVER had a girlfriend who looked like that. To me, dating around is like fine dining: the more you are open to trying different things, the more developed your palate gets, the more you can eat in any restaurant and find something you like. But still, you’re going to have your favorite dishes — just don’t think you have to marry one of them to be happy.

  1. I’ve wondered how much of the obsession with finding a hot girl is really about attraction or about having won the attention over of someone so impressive?

I think it’s impossible for most people to separate their motives from their desires. How many women stop to think about WHY they like “bad boys” even though we all know objectively that they make for terrible long-term partners? They don’t. They feel something, go with the feeling, get burned, and go back for more of the feeling. The brain chemistry that is associated with attraction is very much like cocaine or meth — powerful highs that make people — men and women alike — do otherwise irrational things.

The brain chemistry that is associated with attraction is very much like cocaine or meth — powerful highs that make people — men and women alike — do otherwise irrational things.

My take as a 46-year-old former slut in a 10+ year marriage is this: I think the obsession with “hot” is largely a maturity thing.

When I was a kid, I was attracted to EVERY girl who fit the description in the Wikipedia entry. Essentially, if she was physically appealing, I would have a crush on her, regardless of what her personality was like. Now, I STILL find plenty of women physically appealing, and in an alternate universe where I was single, would gladly have NSA sex with 25% of the female population. But after all my experience, I know better than to think that strong attraction + good sex = happiness.

Which is why I can be attracted to so many people and be the world’s safest husband. It doesn’t occur to me for one second that I’d be happier with anyone other than my wife. That’s what I mean by maturity.

Men who are still driven by the need to get the hot girl literally only see women for their looks. They don’t see women as having value beyond that, so they place a disproportionately high premium on it. Witness the rich men/trophy wife phenomenon. But, as someone crude and wise once said to me, “See that hot woman over there? Some guy is getting sick of fucking her right now.” Which is precisely my point. Since most of life and marriage is not about sex and attraction, it seems short-sighted to place the highest value on sex and attraction. If a random guy asked me for blanket dating advice, I’d tell him to look for two qualities first: happy and sane. Brilliant is a bonus. Hot is a bonus. Because if you are with someone who is unhappy and unreasonable when dealing with conflict, you’re never going to have a great marriage — no matter how rich and attractive the both of you are.

Thanks for the thought-provoking question. If you liked my answer, please share it with a friend, and issue your comments below.

  

Join our conversation (281 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 21
    Lynx

    (Reply link still twitchy)

    K:

    I know, right? I do SO much better with online dating than I ever did at clubs, despite being decades older. Strong writing skills come in so much handier.

    If Bumble had been around when I was in my twenties, I’m confident I could have avoided my disastrous marriage.

    !! Online Dating Saves Lives !!

  2. 22
    Yet Another Guy

    @Marika

    “Where did you get 0.5% from? Your stats are going down!”

    It was from misreading Emily’s post.

  3. 23
    Yet Another Guy

    @sylvana

    From what I have seen, women prefer men that other women desire.  I have never seen a woman who had to pass the “guy friend test.”  While it may be unique to the the U.S., guys usually have to pass the “girlfriend test” (the more envious a woman’s friends, the more desirable the man).   Most of the women I have dated have been cut from this cloth, even my current girlfriend.  The same cannot be said for men due do the nature of being the pursuer.  Non-naive men prefer to limit their competition for a woman (Sorry Emily, having a broader view of what is attractive is male defense mechanism).  A man loses his options when he settles into a relationship whereas a woman never loses her options; therefore, it best to settle down with a woman who does not draw the attention of men like bees to honey, which is the basis for the saying, “if you want to be happy for the rest of your, marry an ugly wife.”  Sure, there are the guys who make a sport out of obtaining women that most men desire, but that is mostly a game.  When it comes time to settle down, experienced men tend to choose a woman with whom they will not have to continuously look over their shoulder.  If you do not believe me, ask men who are coupled to honestly tell you where the woman with whom they share their life ranks in hotness compared to other women they have dated.  Hot women are like the third rail to men with common sense.  It is best to make a high speed pass over them and be done with it lest one risk getting badly burned (i.e., get in, tag it, and get out).

    1. 23.1
      Emily, to

      YAG,
      “A man loses his options when he settles into a relationship whereas a woman never loses her options; therefore, it best to settle down with a woman who does not draw the attention of men like bees to honey, which is the basis for the saying, “if you want to be happy for the rest of your, marry an ugly wife.”
      Why are your comments always so dark? You’re the Nine Inch Nails of this blog.

    2. 23.2
      Nissa

      The “girlfriend test” is actually a “red-flag review” that is not at all about the man’s desirability. It’s a second opinion on what might be wrong with this potential boyfriend, that the woman dating him recognizes she might not be seeing or about which she is failing to be objective.

    3. 23.3
      No Name To Give

      Get outta here!!!

    4. 23.4
      Mousteria

      ”From what I have seen, women prefer men that other women desire.”

      hmm, I wouldn’t be so sure about that. back when I was 18 and a freshman in college, I was interested in sleeping with these 5 women from my classroom. I got to talk to them because we were assigned to the same group work.

      I was the most interested in this particular young woman, but I was also working my way to see if I could manage to sleep with the rest of them, and sadly the woman I desired the most to sleep with found out what I was trying to do, resulting in her telling the other women what I was up to, and suddenly they all lost their interest in getting together with me.

      So, all 5 of them would in theory have had sex with me, but because they thought I was a ”player” they decided I was no longer good enough for them.

      I guess she felt she needed to vindicate herself because I later found out, that every young woman she would see me talking to, she would approach and tell her to get away from me, warning her that I’m a ”bad man” and a ”womanizer”. Considering the woman who did this looked pretty much like a Alessandra Ambrosio genetic clone, and women after being told that I wasn’t a good man pretty much avoided me, with only the women who were interested in casual sex sticking around – women don’t exactly become more attracted to a man, necessarily, because other attractive women are attracted to him.

      ” but that is mostly a game. When it comes time to settle down, experienced men tend to choose a woman with whom they will not have to continuously look over their shoulder. If you do not believe me, ask men who are coupled to honestly tell you where the woman with whom they share their life ranks in hotness compared to other women they have dated. Hot women are like the third rail to men with common sense. It is best to make a high speed pass over them and be done with it lest one risk getting badly burned (i.e., get in, tag it, and get out).”

      Seems like you have a bone to pick with attractive women, lol. My mother was a beauty queen, having won many beauty contests since she was a baby/child. My father and my mother have been happily married to each other, for what is now 40 years. Marry a woman who matches you in looks, and you won’t have to worry about being cheated on, for the most part.

  4. 24
    Yet Another Guy

    @Shaukat

    “Most men do find a large swath of the female population attractive enough to sleep with, at least 40% I’d say.”

    Based on what I witnessed at 2am in clubs when I was younger, I would be willing to wager that it is closer to 75% of the female population, especially if alcohol is involved. 🙂

    1. 24.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      The point, as if we need to make it again, is that men and women are DIFFERENT in how they view sex and attraction.

      Men need to understand that attraction, for women, often goes hand in hand with feelings and personality.
      Women need to understand that attraction, for men, is completely separate from those things, and therefore sex, in general, has a lot less meaning.
      Men, in turn, need to get why it is common sense for a woman to NOT want to have sex on the third date with a guy who is still dating other women.

      Can we all agree on this? YAG, can you maybe soften your “test drive the car” theory and understand/empathize with why it’s smart for women to wait for sex? It’s not a “trap” or a “game”; it’s a look before you leap strategy that serves women well.

      1. 24.1.1
        Mousteria

        ”The point, as if we need to make it again, is that men and women are DIFFERENT in how they view sex and attraction. ”

        Although I deeply respect your point of views, I don’t necessarily agree with that.

        When I was 17, and having my first day of 12th grade high school, I was approached by a classmate of mine who I had never seen before, who basically told me that she wanted me to come home with her and that I could do anything I wanted to do to her, sexually, even going as far as to having sex with her without a condom ”because I want to feel you inside of me”.

        My best friend, a young woman, someone I grew up with pratically sexually harassed me well before I even hit puberty, and over the years, there have been a number of women who’ve outright approached me with sex in their mind or made it very plain what they wanted to do with me.

        Taking into account most of these women were middle-class, and conventionally attractive and I’m below average(5’8” and a genetic clone of the musician Corey Hart, so averagish, not exactly Brad Pitt) I would say that there are many women to whom sex is based purely on looks, even when the physica looks in those men they want to sleep with are nothing special like in my personal case, and there’s probably many women who need to have feelings plus sexual attraction for a man to want to sleep with him.

        This also applies to women who were born and raised in very conservative cultures.

        There were attractive women from wealthy families in the Middle-East, Africa and in India who slept with me very easily despite having more money than I do, as I don’t have a need for much money or for a career,

        and being more sexually attractive than me(and younger) because I suppose a man with Southern European ancestry can be sexually exotic to a Pakistani young woman, or an Indian young woman, for example, whereas there have been women in Europe and in the states who have claimed that although they find me to be very attractive, they lack romantic feelings for me, so no cigar for me.

  5. 25
    Emily, to

    Shaukat, S., Sylvana, Marrika,

    “Sylvana wrote: We might not be able to relate to it, but I’d say most of us can understand it.”
    But I can’t understand finding 25% of the female population appealing. That’s ONE in FOUR women who walks by. Can’t understand it at all.
    “Sex appeal in men is completely unrelated to looks.”
    But I think for men in terms of who they think is sexy, it’s more related to looks. To what extent, I don’t know. You’d have to ask the male posters.
    “S. wrote: I don’t think he’s attractive. Too skinny.”
    I like ’em skinny. 🙂
    “Marika wrote: 25% of the population? We certainly believe guys that they think about sex a lot and think about attraction a lot and like to look at women and porn a lot etc. But it’s hard to imagine it. For us, unless we’re specifically in the zone (online dating, watching Magic Mike, out at a bar with a group of bachelorettes or a really hot guy walks past)”
    That’s exactly what I meant. If I see 1 guy a week who I think: Whoa, I’m doing well. Sometimes it’s by sight but sometimes it’s after a short interaction.
    “Shaukat wrote: Most men do find a large swath of the female population attractive enough to sleep with,”
    I’m not talking about sleeping with. Men (and women) can sleep with people they’re aren’t all that into. I meant find very appealing/feel chemistry/take notice of.

    1. 25.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      “I meant find very appealing/feel chemistry/take notice of.” If it’s not clear, Emily, the value you place on VERY appealing/CHEMISTRY is your issue. It’s like you’re constantly telling the world that we need to think like you, when, in fact, the greater source of wisdom would be to recognize that most of us don’t see the world as you do.

      1. 25.1.1
        Emily, to

        “If it’s not clear, Emily, the value you place on VERY appealing/CHEMISTRY is your issue.”
        I totally get that men don’t place value on it, particularly if they can feel it often.Which is why I’ve stopped valuing it as much if they feel it with me. It is what it is.

        1. Shaukat

          @Emily,

          “Which is why I’ve stopped valuing it as much if they feel it with me. It is what it is.”

          The flaw in your reasoning seems to be your acceptance of the myth of “the one” (or in your case, the elusive 1/1000,000 you keep searching for but haven’t found). If you accept that there are many and not just one, then it won’t bother you so much that men can feel intense chemistry with not just you, but other women as well. Also, have you considered the possibility that most people simply don’t need to feel chemistry on as intense a level as you do in order to date someone?

        2. Emily, to

          Shaukat,
          “If you accept that there are many and not just one, then it won’t bother you so much that men can feel intense chemistry with not just you, but other women as well.”
          I never wrote I’d felt it with just one person. But I have never felt it for more than one person at a time. (I’m talking infatuation level, and I don’t think it’s possible to be infatuated with more than one person at a time.) However, I can feel intense chemistry for that one person and moderate chemistry for other people.

          “Also, have you considered the possibility that most people simply don’t need to feel chemistry on as intense a level as you do in order to date someone?”
          Yes. If people waited to always be infatuated, they’d never date.

        3. Adrian

          Hi Emily,

          Just out of curiosity are you saying that you just want a man you have chemistry with or are you saying you need a man you have strong chemistry with?

          I had an encounter with a worker at a grocery story this weekend that caused me to understand “I think” what you women mean about chemistry. It was an enlightening experience.

          Also would you mind telling me why you don’t find most men attractive?

          I was talking to a female co-worker and she showed me her online dating profile (wanted a male opinion). Scrolling through I hate to say but even as a straight man I found most of the men to be unattractive… Largely do to their lack of presentation. How they dressed, how they groomed themselves, their body shape and poster and no smiles, etc.

          These were all older men (late 40’s early 50’s) but still it was a sad selection. Whereas most women of the same age even if they are not the most attractive or if they are overweight usually put more effort in their presentation, they come off as clean, confident, and fun.

          I don’t know if that has anything to do with why some women only find a small percentage of men attractive vs why most men find more women attractive but I bet it plays a large part of it.

        4. Emily, to

          Hi Adrian,
          “Just out of curiosity are you saying that you just want a man you have chemistry with or are you saying you need a man you have strong chemistry with?”
          I don’t need it. The last person I felt strong chemistry for was not available, but I’ve had a couple of casual situations since meeting him and I didn’t feel it for those guys.
          “I had an encounter with a worker at a grocery story this weekend that caused me to understand “I think” what you women mean about chemistry. It was an enlightening experience.”
          If you don’t know for sure, I’m not sure you experienced it. You shouldn’t feel enlightened. You should feel exhilarated.
          “Also would you mind telling me why you don’t find most men attractive?”
          We’ve had this conversation many times. I can’t go there again.
          Btw, I quit my job. Moving back to where I lived before. Temporarily until I can figure out what to do next. But I’ve already been in contact with a couple of friends and am looking forward to rejoining the world. I’ve been working out. Changed my hair. I’m back, baby. 🙂

        5. Grandpa Adrian (^_^)

          Hi Emily,

          So as your friend I’m happy for you quitting your job because I know you were miserable there.

          However, I wouldn’t be a good friend if I didn’t ask what is your plan? What will be different?

          I only ask because I know you left your hometown for a reason and you often speak about how you found out that many of your so called friends were not actual friends. In addition you are not close with your family. So will there really be much difference between living there and living where you just came from?… Both seem lonely.

          This is why I hope you have a plan because remember for whatever reason you chose to leave where you grew up and go work in a new city.

          So you’ll just be going back to what you wanted to leave. Like a person who goes back to an ex because yeah they are bad but at least you know all their faults and there is comfort in the safety of the known.
          … … …

          I actually agree with you finding a guy just to have fun with. I think it will be good for you, not the sex but the stress relief and the companionship…

          But since you refuse to online date and I don’t see you picking up guys in bars I’m not sure how you will find a FWB.

          Oh and I’m glad that you are getting back in shape and that you changed your hair.
          … … …

          Have you thought about working for a company that doesn’t care what your degrees are in as long as you have a degree?

          I knew a girl who majored in architecture but she couldn’t find a job after graduation so she just went to a place like Amazon and now makes $60,000 as a floor supervisor. She tells me that half the management level employees there have degrees in things that have nothing to do with business or management. And since you have 2 bachelors Emily it may something you would want to look into until you get on your feet financially. If not that there are thousands of high paying jobs that only care about your degree and not what it is in.

        6. Emily, to

          HI GRAMPS ADRIAN, 🙂

          Good to hear from you!
          “However, I wouldn’t be a good friend if I didn’t ask what is your plan? What will be different?”

          It’s not my hometown. Haven’t lived there in decades. Yes, I have a plan. The new job I have is a low-level, do-nothing job. I have a lot of downtime … downtime to figure out what to do next. Do an online class, get a certificate, look for something else, etc. I already told the guy I work for I might only be around for 6 months.

          In terms of friends, I still have a few there to do things with. I’ve already joined a meetup. I plan on being social and making more friends. But I’ve loosened up my expectations of the people I already know.

          “But since you refuse to online date and I don’t see you picking up guys in bars”
          I have nothing against picking up guys in bars, but when I used to do it… everybody was available! 🙂

          “Have you thought about working for a company that doesn’t care what your degrees are in as long as you have a degree?”
          Yes.
          Well, there is one caveat. I’m going back to the same company I worked for before. Slightly different hours. Different area. Different building. I am, of course, afraid of eventually ruining into that guy. It was the one reservation I had about taking the job. However, it is entirely possible for me to avoid him in terms of where I’ll be working, which I plan on doing. I just hope he keeps his distance from me. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen him and there are lots of other women there to engage with.

          How are you? What is happening? How’s the job? Are you dating someone now you are attracted to? (C’mon. Emily’s playing. :))

        7. Gab

          @Emily, to
          I am a chemistry junkie too but I think you are conflating sexual attraction of the male variety (she looks attractive enough, I would tap that) to chemistry which is that explosive mix of sexual/intellectual/emotional attraction. Men feel that too but not when they pass a girl on the street, just as you wouldn’t either. Also I’m not bothered that a man would be willing to have sex with a large proportion of women. I’d only be worried if was that indiscriminate about who he wanted to have a relationship with. Finally I appreciate how generous men are about female beauty. I saw an ex recently for coffee and told him I’d put on a few kilos. He told me that my curvier hips was something that a lot of guys would actually love. Men love women and don’t put us under the same level of scrutiny as we do to ourselves. Maybe women are more likely than men to appreciate non-looks based attributes, but as far as looks go, men have a much more generous and encompassing view of beauty. It all evens out in the end.

          Back to being a chemistry-junkie, I’ve recently started online dating again and trying very hard to be as generous towards what men write in their profiles. It is dire. Where are the witty men?

        8. Emily, to

          Hi Gab,
          “to chemistry which is that explosive mix of sexual/intellectual/emotional attraction.”

          I have to be honest with you: I don’t know what that means. I’ve never felt all of that with one man. My friend always jokes she needs 3 boyfriends.

          “I’d only be worried if was that indiscriminate about who he wanted to have a relationship with.”
          Well, the minute you qualify “have a relationship with” and “wants a relationship with me,” you’re compromising, at least a little, on the chemistry. I’m pushing 50 and have been with 1 man where the chemistry was a 10 and who wanted to be my boyfriend.

          “men have a much more generous and encompassing view of beauty.”
          As a general rule, I agree, with the exception of some (not all) of the male posters on this site.

          “Where are the witty men?”
          They’re sitting in a gay bar. 🙂 Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

        9. Grandpa Adrian (^_^)

          Hi Emily,

          You said, “I still have a few there to do things with. I’ve already joined a meetup.”

          Do you have a plan for this as well? I remember you said that in the past men kind of ruined your meetup experiences because as soon as a new woman joined they pounced like hungry wolfs… Of course that also could be because you tie slabs of meat around your neck (^_^)

          You said, “I plan on being social and making more friends.”

          What is your strategy for this? I’m trying different variations of this and so far my results are pretty much lackluster. I have found that looking for new friends as an adult is like dating. You meet a lot of potential candidates but either you want them and they don’t want you or vise versa. But I think the biggest issue I’m finding is that many people just DON’T know how to be a friend. Like Evan said they are okay with short shallow interactions, but deep meaningful relationships are beyond them.

          You said, “I have nothing against picking up guys in bars, but when I used to do it… everybody was available!”

          For some reason I just can’t imagine you meeting guys in bars. Perhaps because you have mainly spoke about going to gay bars in the past. I know a lot of women do that so they don’t have to worry about being hit on by men. So do you find yourself being overwhelmed with unwanted male attention in straight bars?

          You said, “Well, there is one caveat. I’m going back to the same company I worked for before.”

          Isn’t this like going back to a bad ex because they were safe and comfortable and it was better to have the certainty of someone by your side than the uncertainty of not knowing when you’ll meet a new person?

          You said, “I am, of course, afraid of eventually ruining into that guy. It was the one reservation I had about taking the job.”

          Yup been there before. You become a ninja trying to avoid the one who you asked out that rejected you and then you get really self-conscious because you just know they told others so now the entire department knows you got rejected. Though in your case if I remember correctly you said he barely knew you were alive and when you asked him to hang out all he said was I’m married, so perhaps you can switch it up and play it off like “He” is the one who got the wrong intentions? You could say that you just wanted to hang out to talk about work or get his advice on something…

        10. Emily, to

          Hi, Adrian (^_^)

          “Do you have a plan for this as well? I remember you said that in the past men kind of ruined your meetup experiences because as soon as a new woman joined they pounced like hungry wolfs”
          I joined a women’s group. 🙂

          ” But I think the biggest issue I’m finding is that many people just DON’T know how to be a friend. Like Evan said they are okay with short shallow interactions, but deep meaningful relationships are beyond them.”
          That’s still an issue for me, too. I do have a handful of friends there but I’m looking for additional and more meaningful friendships. I think it’s trial and error, just like dating.

          “For some reason I just can’t imagine you meeting guys in bars.”
          How do you think I met men in my 20s? In bars! I can be very aggressive and very blunt, largely because I don’t think your side picks up on subtlety! 🙂

          ” Perhaps because you have mainly spoke about going to gay bars in the past.”
          We jumped back and forth from straight to gay. Always had more fun in the gay ones.

          “Isn’t this like going back to a bad ex because they were safe and comfortable”
          He’s married. He was never my ex.

          “Though in your case if I remember correctly you said he barely knew you were alive and when you asked him to hang out all he said was I’m married ”
          Uh, no. He flirted with my outrageously, highly sexually, leaned all over me, ran his hands all down my back, etc., would leave me little notes, come to visit me in my office, want to walk around alone and disappear from everyone. I don’t ask people to hang out who don’t give me indication they’re interested. But I do have some lines prepared to set some boundaries this time in case he starts flirting with me again, which I have a feeling he’ll do. That seems to be his go-to with women. How much validation does one man need?

      2. 25.1.2
        sylvana

        Evan,

        hey! The reply button worked for once…lol

        “It’s like you’re constantly telling the world that we need to think like you,”

        I don’t see where she said that at all. She merely stated that she cannot relate to finding 25% of the opposite gender (or even same gender) attractive.

        There’s a huge difference between looking at a person (or meeting a person) and thinking “I’d like to/wouldn’t mind have sex with him/her”. And looking at a person and thinking “I’d like to have sex. And if I close my eyes/turn of the lights, he/she’ll serve the purpose, despite the fact that I’m not attracted to them.”

  6. 26
    Adrian

    Jeremy I know you are distancing yourself from the blog because of the awkwardness of what happened but if you’re lurking I would love to hear your thoughts on the subjects of this post.

  7. 27
    Marika

    Emily

    I recall when I was young people used to say “men think about sex every 10 seconds”. If they’re visual and constantly thinking about sex, this all makes sense.

    I also learned from When Harry Met Sally that if you’re friends with a guy, he’s probably thought about you naked.

    I met a guy once in a very non -sexy setting for about 20 mins. I’d actually just done Bikram yoga and was all gross and sweaty. He has my number for logistical reasons and keeps texting me inviting me over. No doubt if I agreed and we got it on, I’d never hear from him again. It’s just the thrill of the unknown.

    1. 27.1
      Emily, to

      Marika,
      I love when Harry Met Sally. I just told a friend we were going to meet up to go dancing to do the “white man’s overbite.” 🙂
      I get what you are saying. My point was in all of this …. I feel chemistry very rarely so I have overvalued it, assuming the man (if he felt it, too) also valued it as much as I did. But that’s probably not the case. Not if men feel it often. It’s a bit like the argument we had on another post where one male poster kept writing that he felt validated if a woman had sex with him. And I (and I believe Sylvana) kept posting that a woman agreeing to sex can mean she’s validating the guy as a man but a lot of times, particularly if it’s casual, it just means he asked and he was there. And we kept asking him: How can you feel validation if the woman, in her own mind, isn’t validating you?

      1. 27.1.1
        sylvana

        Emily,

        Good luck with your new chapter in life!

        Yes. I agree that there are lots of women who can have sex the same way men do: With a partner who is there and available, regardless of whether you find them attractive or not. They serve no more than a means to an end. The line gets drawn at repulsion, not at zero attraction.

        I think what you refer to as chemistry actually IS what others consider attraction. They couldn’t relate to the fact that you rarely feel attraction, and so you tried to explain it better – which is causing further confusion…lol.

        Attraction is a person causing a reaction in you. It’s the difference between wanting to have a relationships, or just sex in general, and wanting to have a relationship, or just sex, with that person. Or the person causing you to want to have a relationship, or just sex, to begin with (when you didn’t feel the urge to before).

        There is a blog post somewhere here on Evan’s blog where a woman wrote in complaining about rarely ever being attracted to anyone. That’s actually how I discovered this blog. Because I’m the same way.

        Sexually, I encounter maybe one man every three to four weeks that I’m actually attracted to – and that’s a rather mild attraction. Stronger attraction, maybe one or two per year. Relationship wise, I don’t have a scale. It’s either yes or no. And usually only one man every two or three years.

        The interesting part about that blog post was that a lot of women responded in the comments stating that they were the same. People dismissed it as them just wanting the objectively hottest men.

        But I already know that what you (Emily) considers hot, and what I consider hot, are two completely different men – at least looks wise. So objective attractiveness has absolutely nothing to do with it.

        Neither does wanting high chemistry. Since both you (Emily) and I, and a lot of women who commented on that post are having problems finding even low chemistry men.

        I can totally relate to Emily when it comes to overvaluing attraction/chemistry. Since I (like most men) can have sex with zero to very low attraction partners, and I rarely ever feel more than that, I used to believe mid-range attraction was something special. Something you might encounter at best once per year. So it was a bit disappointing to find out that men have that or even more with at least 25% of the population. Which means that even high attraction isn’t anything special. Despite the fact that I’ve only felt it twice so far in my life.

        That’s also why I always have to chuckle when Evan mentions 7 as a good baseline for attraction in a relationship partner. That’s a once in a two or three year occasion.

        I do find it interesting, though, that you cannot relate to 1 out of 4 women, either. If nothing else, I always looked at it from a “judge the competition” point of view. But maybe that depends on where you live. I’m in South Florida. East coast, south, south. There is no shortage of tight-bodied, well-maintained women here, from 18-60 and beyond.

        1. Emily, to

          Slyvana,
          “Attraction is a person causing a reaction in you. It’s the difference between wanting to have a relationships, or just sex in general, and wanting to have a relationship, or just sex, with that person.”
          Which is a huge difference. I don’t know why I have to keep explaining it. It’s like getting off. You’ll KNOW if you felt it. They’ll be no doubt. It’ll hit you like a ton of bricks. 🙂 I’m not saying this type of attraction is necessary to date or have a relationship. Just that it exists.

          ” Since I (like most men) can have sex with zero to very low attraction partners, and I rarely ever feel more than that, I used to believe mid-range attraction was something special. Something you might encounter at best once per year. So it was a bit disappointing to find out that men have that or even more with at least 25% of the population. Which means that even high attraction isn’t anything special. Despite the fact that I’ve only felt it twice so far in my life.”
          This is exactly how I feel. Mid-range is rare. High is even rarer. To know that I’ve felt that high level of attraction maybe a handful of times in my life, and the other side feels it often. It’s not special, and although I knew that intellectually, reading that fact is like swallowing a spoonful of crushed aspirin.

    2. 27.2
      sylvana

      Marika,

      I don’t know about men, but I’m visual because I think about sex all the time. Not the other way around. I don’t think about sex all the time because I’m visual.

      With other words, the sexual urge comes first (and constantly), and then I use the visual to gratify the sexual urges. Whether that be looking at/noticing people around me to find a sex partner, looking at images, or looking at porn. And I still think about sex all the time even if the visual stimuli isn’t present.

      Thinking about sex all the time causes me being visual.

      Does that make sense?

      It would actually be interesting to know how it works for men.

  8. 28
    Adrian

    Hi Evan,

    You said, “My take as a 46-year-old former slut in a 10+ year marriage is this: I think the obsession with “hot” is largely a maturity thing.”

    On a previous post you said, “I was 27. She was hot…It was – predictably – a chemistry-based disaster. She was the hottest woman I’d ever dated (before or since… Youthful mistakes )”

    Since this seems to be one of the rare times when you join in the comments I would be curious to hear your opinion maturity.

    1). When it comes to dating do you think both men and women “naturally” mentally & emotionally mature over time and seek less superficial things in a partner or is it something that you have to consciously work on?

    2). From your 10+ years of coaching what have you learned that if 27 again you would do differently?

    3). What do you think is the biggest mistake young men make in dating?… If it’s over focusing on or chasing looks & sexy appeal how does one see the benefit of something intangible like character, kindness, etc and a future with a person you barely know, when how attractive they are to you is in the now and it’s measurable?

    1. 28.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Sorry, I’ve been in a prickly mood today and need to stop engaging. But to quickly address your questions before lunch:

      1. I think that most maturity involves both types of growing up. The same way that looks are both objective and subjective, I think there’s the maturity of naturally discovering that your needs change from 25 to 45 to 65. On the other hand, there’s the hard-won wisdom of poor life choices. Not everybody gets it and many people spend their post-40 years doing the same thing they did beforehand – overvaluing chemistry, height, body type, income, charisma and undervaluing people who are kind, easygoing, happy, and honest.

      2. I don’t know I would have been ready for love at 27 given where I was in my career arc, but if I wanted to meet my wife at 27 instead of 34, I would have placed a much higher premium on finding a woman who accepted ALL of me instead of chasing impressive women who didn’t.

      3. For most men, it’s overemphasizing “hot”. For me, you can add “smart,” since it was equal in appeal. But hot and smart can’t alone make you happy. So think of it like this: there are two words that everyone beats to death when looking for a life partner: love and chemistry. Both are NECESSARY to get a relationship started but neither is SUFFICIENT. Virtually every divorced couple or unhappy married couple started with chemistry and declarations of love. At the end of the day, it’s the other stuff that will endure for 40 years. Once you realize that your relationship of 1 year doesn’t at all resemble what follows, perhaps we can all slow down and cut loose people who are too selfish to be good partners – which, candidly, would be a majority of people (men and women alike).

      1. 28.1.1
        sylvana

        Evan,

        “love and chemistry. Both are NECESSARY to get a relationship started but neither is SUFFICIENT. … “slow down and cut loose people who are too selfish to be good partners”

        That actually explains it wonderfully!

        Look for love and chemistry. But stay only with those who actually make good partners as well – on top of bringing love and chemistry. Slow down wanting to be married, and be quicker about cutting loose those who don’t have the whole package.

        Put that way, it doesn’t sound like compromise at all. It sounds like perfect sense.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          It’s always made perfect sense, Sylvana. I wouldn’t be helping so many women get happily married if my advice was to settle on a relationship with no chemistry.

  9. 29
    Marika

    Hey Shaukat

    “Also, have you considered the possibility that most people simply don’t need to feel chemistry on as intense a level as you do in order to date someone?”

    Have you personally found that, though? I’m trying to do all the things Evan advises, but I’ve noticed I’m fighting an uphill battle! Every second profile I read has some reference to ‘chemistry’. I hear people say ‘I just didn’t feel the chemistry’. Really, after one drink you weren’t feeling gaga over this person, so that’s it?

    It’s my experiences the dating public are all obsessed with chemistry.

    1. 29.1
      sylvana

      Marika,

      I think that depends on whether you’re in the “it will grow” or the “it won’t grow” field. For some people attraction grows, for others it doesn’t.

      I also find it interesting that you and Shaukat associate feeling chemistry with feeling gaga over a person, or feeling intense levels of chemistry.

      To me (and I think Emily), feeling no chemistry means feeling ZERO chemistry/attraction. And feeling chemistry could mean anything from a 1 to a 10. There’s a HUGE range between nothing at all and intense chemistry.

      When I hear someone say (or see it written) that they didn’t feel the chemistry, I assume they didn’t feel anything – aka they’re not attracted at all. Not that they didn’t feel intense chemistry – attracted, but not strongly attracted.

      1. 29.1.1
        SparklingEmerald

        Hi Sylvana – I think you and I must have been typing our responses at the same time, as there was no 29.1 when I typed my comment (29.2).

        But yes, you get it ! Very often on this blog (and elsewhere I assume) telling someone you didn’t feel chemistry gets interpreted as you weren’t over the moon, gaga with lust. Telling someone you want to be with someone who finds you attractive gets interpreted as you wanting to be considered the hottest woman in the world. None of which is true.

        ****************************************
        “”When I hear someone say (or see it written) that they didn’t feel the chemistry, I assume they didn’t feel anything – aka they’re not attracted at all. Not that they didn’t feel intense chemistry – attracted, but not strongly attracted.”
        ****************************************

        Yes, yes, yes. I would like to copy and save this to reply to those who assume that feeling chemistry means chasing INTENSE chemistry. I haven’t even FELT that gaga-over-the-moon chemistry since my divorce, and I am very relieved of that. As I said before, the intensity of “chemistry” I felt in my younger dating years was like crack cocaine. The level of “chemistry” I felt in my last incarnation of dating and my husband now, is like a a nice glow from a glass of fine wine. I’ll take that glass of wine over crack cocaine any day !

        1. Emily, to

          Sparkling Emerald,
          “I haven’t even FELT that gaga-over-the-moon chemistry since my divorce, and I am very relieved of that. As I said before, the intensity of “chemistry” I felt in my younger dating years was like crack cocaine.”
          I’m wondering if some of the people who are capable of feeling intense chemistry are addictive personalities. Or have some kind of differing wiring. I used to think people who hadn’t experienced it were just logical types, but maybe they don’t have the biochemistry for it? ?

        2. sylvana

          SE,

          I’m with you 100%.

          Honestly, I don’t think I’d ever want to feel high levels of chemistry. The extreme highs and extreme crashes that come with it are absolutely similar to crack cocaine. And I think the few people who do chase that are similar to adrenaline junkies.

          And they’re not really looking for love and relationships, they’re looking to maintain that “high” as long as possible.

        3. sylvana

          Emily,

          what an interesting observation! I would definitely say the people chasing that “high” probably have more addictive personalities.

          As for feeling it more often versus feeling it more rarely:

          I wonder if the pleasure center/response of the brain has something to do with it. I’ve noticed that a lot of the people I know who feel it more often also have a much greater pleasure response to various other things, and overall.

          Their pleasure response is a lot easier activated than mine, for example, and a lot more often, and more intensely.

    2. 29.2
      SparklingEmerald

      HI Marika at 29

      I wish there was a specific word for “no chemistry’ that didn’t contain the word chemistry. To me, it is not so much a lack of a feeling, but more so a definite feeling that I would never want to sleep with that person. So why, if one has ruled out sleeping with someone, should they continue to date ? I have read numerous articles that say that our minds make a decision on weather or not we are sexually attracted in less than a second.

      I think “repulsed” is a strong word, but there are just occasions when I meet someone and I just know that I will never want to be physically intimate with them. So chemistry (or attraction) is binary for me, it is yes or no. And no, I don’t believe it is a choice. Not being sexually attracted doesn’t mean I am repulsed, it doesn’t mean I DISLIKE person, it doesn’t mean I think they are a bad person, I don’t think they are UN-attractive, it’s just that I am not attracted to them.

      While within the “yes” range of attraction, I might have varying degrees, such as ranging from comfortably attracted to, to WILDLY attracted to, there still has to be a YES in the attraction (or chemistry) column. (I actually prefer comfortably attracted to, over WILDLY attracted to) I have what I call “intellectually attracted to” where objectively, I think I SHOULD be attracted to someone, but I just can’t. These are men who physically attractive enough and have no obvious unattractive traits (no weird voice, no weird body language, no obnoxious character traits). I have been attracted to average looking men, and unattracted to fairly good looking men. Yes, I have tried to give the “I should be attracted to” men a chance, and it has NEVER worked. I think it must pheremones. It certainly isn’t a choice on my part, and I never did anyone a favor trying to force myself to feel ANY level of attraction, if it simply wasn’t there.

      A good analogy to describe an intellectual attraction, imagine you have a cute female friend who you really like as a friend. You wonder why she doesn’t have a boyfriend, as she has told you she would like to fall in love, but hasn’t found the right person yet. You think, well she is very cute, has great character, and you think she would make a great partner. So you tell her, that the right man will come along one day and make her happy. After she hems and haws a bit, she comes out to you that she is a lesbian and is looking for a woman. You act surprised to learn she is gay, but she is still your friend and you accept her as being gay. Then she says that she has a crush on you, and asks if you would give a romantic relationship with her a chance and perhaps be open to the idea that you could be bi-sexual. Well I could no more develop sexual feelings for some men, even if they are attractive, of good character and no obvious unattractive traits, than I could change my sexual orientation to be gay or bi.

      In fact, even if I start out unattracted but not repulsed, most men expect sex on dates 1, 2 or 3, so that lack of attraction quickly turns to repulsion once the sexual escalation starts.

      So for me, turning down someone due to NO “chemistry” what so ever, is not about chasing “wild chemistry” or being “ga-ga”. It is about knowing myself, and not leading someone on, if I know that there is not at least a baseline level of chemistry.

      However, I avoid that term and would just usually thank men for their time, offer to pay my share and tell them “We aren’t a match”.

      1. 29.2.1
        No Name To Give

        SE,

        IF I were to change my mind and go out with someone, the first meeting would be coffee; the first several dates I would go dutch. That way any expectations are taken off the table.

        1. sylvana

          No Name,

          Hahahahahaha!!! Best comment ever!

      2. 29.2.2
        Nissa

        SE,
        I would say “not repulsed, just indifferent”.

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Exactly ! “Indifferent” is not enough to explore a relationship. “Not repulsed” is not enough to explore a relationship. “No chemistry” is not the same as “I wasn’t WILDLY, over the moon, Ga-Ga”. “No chemistry” and “indifferent” are the same in my book.

      3. 29.2.3
        sylvana

        SE,

        I was just thinking that the moment you mentioned said girlfriend. Sexual orientation is a wonderful way to explain it. No matter how beautiful and attractive that woman is, no matter how perfect a match and partner she would be, there is absolutely no way a straight woman could ever feel herself wanting to be intimate with her (including kissing, etc.).

        Just like a homosexual person (or animal) will never feel any interest whatsoever in being intimate with the opposite gender.

        And how come some people (and animals) can go both ways?

        What actually causes this? WHY is that happening? And what role does that play in attraction in general. It has to be more than pheromones.

        For that matter, how does nature even recognize the opposite gender? How do bodies and reproductive systems know that that is what we need to reproduce? It cannot be visual clues. Take housecats, for example. Guinea pigs. Hamsters. Tigers. Wolves, to name just a few. Visually, the male is not always easy to identify.

        I wonder if the same thing responsible for sexual orientation also comes into play when it comes to attraction and chemistry in general.

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Hi Sylvana – Yes I think you understand. I think sexual orientation and “attraction and chemistry” are hard wired and different for everyone. I have girlfriends who basically can like any guy who likes them. Then I have girlfriends like me, who spend a lot of time in dating limbo, not liking the guys who like them, liking the guys who don’t like them back, and lots of “beige” dates (no interest on either side) etc. Not any choices I have made. I have a good friend who really does need to be “friends first”. The guy she has been living with for the past four years was strictly platonic for about 6 months. Not hard to do as the met at work, so there was no initial expectation. He obviously liked her, I even nudged her a few times saying “He’s pretty cute and he is obviously sweet on you, . . .” and she kept saying she really like him, but just a s friend. I don’t think she was gaming him, or playing hard to get, I just think she needs a long time for someone to grow on her. They are a couple now and have been for 4 years. I envy my girlfriends who pretty much liked any guy who liked them. There were plenty of guys who I WISHED I could like, but I didn’t. (by like, I mean like with the capacity to turn romantic)

  10. 30
    Clare

    I tend to agree with the 5% stat that Emily put forward.

    However, this is an average, and I suspect can vary dramatically depending on the setting.

    For instance, I think both Italy and Ireland would have a disproportionately high number of men I’d find attractive. I’ve also noticed an uncanny number of good looking men in the pilot, veterinarian and chiropractor professions.

    But yeah, I agree with both Marika and Emily that, because sex is not front and center of our minds the way it is for men, it is difficult for most women to imagine being sexually attracted to such a high number of people as the guys claim they are. However, I think this is the way it should be. As that old cliche saying goes, women are the gatekeepers of sex. For this reason, we cannot be as ruled by our libidos and need to take other things into account. Likewise, for men as the gatekeepers of commitment, they cannot be as ruled by their emotions and need to be able to think longer term.

    There are plenty of exceptions to these scenarios, but I find in general the difference between the sexes in this area creates a push-pull dynamic which is actually quite healthy.

    1. 30.1
      sylvana

      Clare,

      hmmmm… sex IS front and center in my mind. Sadly, it doesn’t make the men any more attractive…lol

      It simply means that attractions comes secondary to willingness :-))

  11. 31
    Marika

    Evan

    Hopefully you’re still around!

    Do you really think the majority of people are too selfish to be good partners? That’s sad given most people get married!

    Why do you think the number is so high? Most people are reasonable friends, okay with their colleagues, help out their parents and are decent to their kids. Why do you think these same people are such bad partners. It’s funny that the one thing we actively seek and choose is the one thing many of us stuff up! 😉

    1. 31.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      This isn’t the best venue to have a real conversation, as you know, Marika. I just think there’s a difference between being a friend (on call for pleasure, and occasional emotional support) and being a life partner (100% immersion and commitment). Most people are fine in small doses. Most people are lousy in large ones. That’s why it’s so hard to find “the one.” And yet… hundreds of millions of people do…and anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of them are happy. 🙂 So all is not lost. Are you in the Love U Facebook group for graduates? If not, you should be.

    2. 31.2
      Adrian

      Hi Marika,

      Evan gave a great answer. I would add that I believe most people OVER VALUE how great of a boyfriend/girlfriend they would be.

      As GoWithTheFlow use to say most people think they would be great partners even if what others see in them is different they find a way to justify their selfish behavior and even worst most people think they are self-aware and know their own short-comings and how to make a partner happy when in reality they are from from it as Jeremy use to say.
      … … …

      I’ll ask you the same question I asked Shaukat since like me and Tom10 you two are the only regular commentors who I know are also actively dating, “I’m curious as hear your thoughts on what are some of the challenges you find in dating?”

  12. 32
    Marika

    Ladies

    Can we please clarify that going about our day we maybe see 5% of hotties hot hot.

    NOT that we only find 5% of the entire male population attractive.

    Otherwise some dude will incorrectly go on and on about that.

    Clare: for me it’s South America 😉 I would spend all day drooling…

    1. 32.1
      sylvana

      Marika,

      All right. When we’re talking world population, I’ll give you the 25%. But that’s as high as I’ll go.

      Ireland, Scotland – yes, yes, yes. Definitely. Since I really like the rougher look. Dating wise as well, because a lot of them don’t mind a more natural, or stronger woman.
      Italy, South America – Beautiful and masculine, but almost too beautiful for me. Beautiful and man to me is like oil and water.
      For some reason (which I’ve yet to figure out), I also often like the Russian/Slavic look. They can be complicated to deal with, though.

      And then there’s Arabia. Bedouin, especially. I can totally understand why they’re one of the top sex tourism destinations for women. I’ve dropped an ovary or two before at the sight of one of those gorgeous men. My entire reproductive system actually jumps ship and starts frantically paddling in that direction before my brain even has time to register what my eyes just saw.

      Too bad about their attitude. Still, the rest of my body will catch up with my reproductive system as soon as my brain kicks in.

      1. 32.1.1
        Nissa

        If you like the Bedouin, check out Oded Fehr and Arnold Vosloo. Both very sexy.

        1. sylvana

          Nissa,

          yes, yes, yes. Did I mention yes? lol

          Any search for Bedouin men gives me enough results to last a lifetime. And they’re just as gorgeous in person (that’s why I try not to travel to Arabia too much anymore).

          Who knew charcoal eyeliner was just as effective on men?

  13. 33
    Adrian

    Hi Shaukat,

    I remember you tell Tom10 that you also recently got back into dating.

    I’m curious as hear your thoughts on what are some of the challenges you find in dating? And what is the biggest disconnect you think men and women have in dating?

    I think Evan’s response to YAG was very good. We men and women have different goals and when one group tries to impose their values on the other it causes conflict.

    1. 33.1
      shaukat

      Hi Adrian,

      I don’t think my challenges are that unique–I guess since I’m interested in a connection, the challenge is sifting through a lot to get that. I go on several dates, they often lead to second dates or some form of physical intimacy, but then fizzle off either because one of us isn’t as interested as the other or the connection isn’t strong enough.

      I’m not so sure though if men and women have different goals in dating, at least not in my age group (mid-30s). It’s true that men and women, in general, have different arousal triggers, and that women in general need more of an emotional connection for sex, but I think the number of men dating solely for sex is low. Even the casual sex I’ve had was always been a by-product of putting myself out there, it was never my main goal.

      What challenges do you find you face?

      1. 33.1.1
        sylvana

        Shaukat,

        interesting. So the main motivator for you is, in fact, the relationship – with sex being one of the benefits thereof. Instead of sex (regular access thereto) being the primary motivator for seeking a relationship.

        And the effort, etc. involved in dating is basically too much effort, etc. for casual sex.

      2. 33.1.2
        Adrian

        Hi Shaukat,

        You said, “I’m not so sure though if men and women have different goals in dating”

        Perhaps I can reword it. I once read that if you took a child and taught him/her all their life that a banana was called an apple then to them you would be the one who had the problem if every time they asked for a apple you brought them an apple.

        From reading the blog for a few years I think this is a big problem many people face in dating. They are both saying they WANT the same thing but each has a different definition of what that thing is.

        You said, ” I think the number of men dating solely for sex is low.”

        Ugh! This^^! I’m so glad you brought this up. Men who only want sex or who are willing to sleep with a woman they have no attraction to is such a lie and yet it’s so popular.

    2. 33.2
      sylvana

      Adrian,

      let’s hear the your answers to this as well 🙂 You always ask the most interesting questions. And I think it would be great to hear both genders’ side to this.

      I currently don’t date, but I think one of the biggest challenges of modern dating would be finding a person with potential to be a suitable partner. There are so many factors at play. And the countless hours of looking for people, and going on first, second, third dates that lead nowhere. Having more options to choose from doesn’t necessarily mean there are more matches for you. It just gives you a greater chance of finding that match. Burnout might be a great problem.

      For me, the greatest challenge would be the whole getting-to-know-each-other phase. Nothing’s decided. Not knowing where you stand. That’s the ultimate nightmare for a quick to make decisions, control-freak, impatient Aries…lol. Make a decision already and stick to it. Indecisiveness drives us nuts. And don’t expect us to stick around and wait while you make a decision. By the time you decide which person you want to be with, we’ll like have had three or more relationships already and broken back up. And you’ll be long dismissed as a potential partner, because your inability to decide will drive us crazy in all aspects of the life we might have together.

      The biggest disconnect in dating in general would be the different goals of the genders, I think.

      Men want sex, and if a relationship happens, fine. Women want a relationship. Some women want a relationship, and if sex happens instead, fine.

      Do you think that’s different if a man is actively seeking a relationship? Of course he wants to have sex. But does his priority shift to the goal being a relationship, and if sex happens instead, fine? Other qualities are more important than the sex – pushing sex down to a fun side-effect?

      To me, sex pretty much is the goal. And the primary motivation for a relationship (primary, not total) would be to have relatively easy access to regular and steady sex. With the added bonus of sex getting better over time as two partners get to know each other better. The other qualities relationships bring are secondary.

      I’m trying to relate to men by imaging what it would be like if a man expected me to commit before sex. And I have to admit that one of three things would happen:

      1) As long as other men are willing to have sex before commitment, I would have to be gaga crazy about a person in order to commit before I even know if we’re sexually compatible. Which proves Evan right. That a man willing to commit has serious interest. And I’m going to be royally pissed off if we end up not being sexually compatible. Because serious interest means a bit of emotions got involved for no reason whatsoever. And now I have to break up with him.

      2) I’d be more likely to not bother with the man wanting to wait for sex, Because I don’t want to have any emotional investment in a man without knowing if one of the major deal breakers exists. Or because I don’t want the headache of committing to become a girlfriend just to break up again right away if the sex doesn’t do. Once again proves Evan right.

      3) I’d commit quickly. I’d tell him what he wants to hear so I can find out what I want to know. Sure, I’ll be your girlfriend – long enough to figure out if the sex is good enough (of course I’ll leave that part out). What do I have to lose? A week of not cruising online for someone else? Sure, I’ll be a pretend girlfriend if that’s what it takes. While I still have to break up, at least I won’t have any sort of emotional investment at this point.

      As much as I hate to say this, 3 would be the most likely option I would take. It’s sad, because if I’m dealing with a man who gets emotionally attached because of sex, at least he would have been somewhat able to protect himself if I would have been honest.

      How in the world do you men navigate this? Does the quantity of sex make up for the quality? Do you prioritize other qualities the relationship brings over sex?

      Or is this why so many women think men are heartless? Because women (by trying to protect themselves) are forcing men to take option 3.

      YAG, you’re option 2, right? You won’t commit if you have to wait.

      Adrian and the rest of you men here: What goes through our mind when faced with a woman who wants to wait? What would be a good way for a woman who wants to wait to communicate with you regarding quality/quantity/expectations, etc.?

      1. 33.2.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        I will speak for myself. If I was really excited about a woman – genuinely liked spending time with her platonically – AND she was fun in the bedroom – I would have ZERO trouble waiting a few weeks. That’s why I recommend sexclusivity. I have to think that there are other good guys who have integrity and are not going to put their own need to get laid over her need to feel comfortable. I would NEVER lie about being a boyfriend just to get laid – and, frankly, have a hard time understanding and respecting anyone who would.

        1. Clare

          Evan,

          In my fairly extensive dating experience, there are plenty of good guys out there who are willing to wait a few weeks for sex. The guys I’m talking about always wanted it, but were quite happy to wait till we knew each other a bit better and I felt comfortable, or till we’d decided to be together exclusively.

          I’ve also actually literally never had a guy lie about being my boyfriend in order to get me into bed. I think they have had more respect for my intelligence than that. If he is already acting like a boyfriend, the title is just by-the-by anyway. If he is not acting like a boyfriend, probably not a good idea to sleep with him, even if he does claim that he’s your boyfriend.

        2. sylvana

          Evan,

          thank you for answering that!

          Sexclusivity is what I always considered the perfect solution. Promise sexual exclusivity, but not quite boyfriend/girlfriend yet. I always wondered if that was something you would consider a good compromise.

          So you extend that to the “foreplay” stage? (I’m asking because you said you are waiting, but already know she’s fun in the bedroom).

          And no, I didn’t mean men (or me) putting the need to get laid over her need to be comfortable. Or becoming a boyfriend/girlfriend just to get laid. Since we could get laid with anyone.

          I was referring to test driving the sex with that person before you commit to them. Seclusivity would absolutely cover that, and remove the whole problem around it.

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          I think you can test drive the car without leaving the lot. Spend a few weeks going from second to third and include manual and oral… and I, for one, would feel pretty confident in choosing a girlfriend without intercourse.

          I get why sex is important; I also maintain that:

          A. It’s just another metric for compatibility, like money or intelligence or temperament or cleanliness. You don’t figure everything out before he’s your boyfriend. You figure most of it out over the two years you date.

          B. Most women count the number of men they’ve slept with. Is it appreciably different from oral? No. Many say it’s more intimate. That’s fair. My only point is that it’s often wise for women to hold a little back physically and emotionally until there’s the security of knowing he’s a good guy and also committed. That knowledge is more likely to take place over a month than over three dates. During that month, both parties should keep things hot, with some minor restrictions.

        4. sylvana

          Clare,

          thanks for answering, Clare. That clears things up better 🙂

        5. sylvana

          Evan,

          “Spend a few weeks going from second to third”

          Perfect. Thanks! That’s a compromise even I wouldn’t mind making.

          The reason I was asking was because I found myself in a position to be pounced on by a few 18-21 year old girls who ride at our barn when they found out I was willing to discuss the subject openly. (What is wrong with parents? This is the 21st century, after all.) But some are obviously different from myself. And I wasn’t sure what to tell them.

          Since I see relying on being boyfriend/girlfriend backfiring in various ways. This is the perfect compromise.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @Evan

          “No. Many say it’s more intimate.”

          I am glad that you included that line because I have yet to meet a woman who does not consider oral to be more intimate than intercourse.

      2. 33.2.2
        Adrian

        Hi Sylvana,

        I really enjoyed your hypothesis about how going on a date doesn’t mean going on a date in modern dating. Perhaps that is another reason I struggle with dating. I always assume that a women knows that if I ask her out on a date it means I like her and I always date with the intention of long-term relationship.

        When I ask a woman out I’m always direct so that there can be no misunderstanding of my intentions but it never occurred to me that her definition of date and my definition of date could be completely different.
        … … …

        As far as your views on relationships, I think they are kind of high standard but I like them. As far as your views on sex… To be honest I can’t tell if you are strong and open or very guarded and it’s a way to protect yourself… seeking men you know you won’t form an emotional attachment to.

        I wonder how many guys you’ve scared off because of this? I’m not sure how old you are but I remember you saying your hot (^_^) so I’m sure lots of guys want to date you. However, as much as men say they want a woman to love sex what they mean is that they want her to love sex with them! Plus a woman who is too confident (or has masculine energy as you would say) intimidates a lot of guys.

        So your looks and your ideas about sex would attract them but your personality chases them away?

        I just went on a date with a partner in law firm who comes off as very strong but I realize that it’s all just her way to keep guys distant to guard herself from being hurt. Since I’m not after sex but a relationship I don’t plan on asking her out again; sad thing is that I actually like her intelligence and strong character-but I see the headache dating someone like that would be. Some of your post remind me of her.

        … … …

        You asked, ” What goes through our mind when faced with a woman who wants to wait? What would be a good way for a woman who wants to wait to communicate with you regarding quality/quantity/expectations, etc.?”

        So with me it’s ALL about her motives, and if she is selfish or not. What I mean is, if she is doing it because she truly wants to protect her heart then I will wait… The more I like her the longer I’d be willing to wait.

        But if I sense that she is making me wait because of some type of strategy or test then yeah even if it’s well intentioned I would walk. Tom10 gave an example of a girl doing this to him a few post back and listed that is why he dumped her.

        As far as how she should communicate I think Evan has given some good answers in previous post. Honesty that doesn’t make the man feel like a pervert or creep. And if the waiting period goes on longer than 2 months then she should at least be willing to meet me half way.

        1. Emily, to

          Big Adrian,
          “And if the waiting period goes on longer than 2 months then she should at least be willing to meet me half way.”
          Does “meeting you half way” mean engaging in that particular sexual activity you like? 🙂 🙂

  14. 34
    S.

    Hmm. The thing is when I thought about it, if it were prehistoric times, and I didn’t have to worry about disease, death, or who would care for any potential children, I would have sex with a lot of people. Just out of curiosity. Kind of like you would kiss someone. I would have slept with so many men from online who I barely knew. Every man I went beyond three dates with I usually had real physical attraction with. (Only one guy I really didn’t but I tried to because he was attractive.)

    So while I need personality to feel attraction I can feel it when I get to know lotsa men. Lots of inappropriate men. So can’t say it’s 5%. Maybe 10%? And that’s not raw attraction that’s raw attraction + a great personality that meshes with mine. It is is also an emotional attraction. In cavepeople days emotions were simple. You feel, you do. I miss this simplicity. Like a little kid. Gimme that! LOL.

    But it’s not then, its now. And I guess there is a thought process in between and I do worry about consequence and my emotions can grow big with someone I’ve known a short time. So I can’t act on attraction. And I can shut.it.down. So I don’t even meet men’s eyes on the street. They are attractive but why bother when they are looking right through me themselves and I’m too busy for it all right now? And Evan is right about small doses. I find there are some people who aren’t really that nice or whom I don’t really want to spend my free time with. Is that how men feel after sex with someone they barely know?

    I realized something on this blog. The men and women really do know enough about the opposite gender. They just are so different that it’s like a surprise every time you learn a new detail that you already knew. We also think a whole lot and some folks are just doers.

    For me, I can’t reconcile what would make men happen with who I’ve evolved to be. What I can do and what I’m trying to do and not think so much that I write these long comments and that I spend more of my life doing, than writing about it. That’s a criticism of myself, not anyone else.

    I can chill with the thinking. OT, as Evan calls it. But I won’t stop with the big feeling. I’ve found other ways to channel it, that passion, while I’m single. I’m passionate about causes, activism, other isms. Not the same as being sexually active but fulfilling in real ways at the of the day. I will have something real. That’s who I want to be. I’ve attached a seriousness to sex and will keep it that way. But I can also live into trying to be more lighthearted and fun about dating. I used to be until I got hurt a buncha times. I’m not bitter, but it lost the fun somehow. And now I have fun with other stuff.

  15. 35
    S.

    @ Emily, the one, the original, the OG

    Really, you like skinny? But skinny doesn’t seem as manly as you seem to like men.

    I think I like men to be ever so slightly overweight. I like the weight. I like them to look like grown, seasoned men. Mmm. 🙂

    Remember Anthony Michael Hall? And then the man turned 40 and YUM. I don’t even like blondes but I enjoyed that glow up. He just had some bulk and weight to him, not too much, but he looked fully grown. Wouldn’t have found him attractive in his 20s and 30s.

    (That could also be why my percentage is higher. There really isn’t a shortage of slightly overweight men in the Americas. 😉 I do look at thinner men too. I’m always ready to change my physical type on a dime for someone whose character I enjoy.)

    1. 35.1
      Emily, to

      S.,
      “Really, you like skinny? But skinny doesn’t seem as manly as you seem to like men.”
      I like men with a strong sense of self. Has nothing to do with what they physically look like. Attitude. Think Billie Joe Armstrong in Greenday. Sean Penn, although he’s too bulky now. I don’t like a man with a wide can. 🙂
      “Remember Anthony Michael Hall? And then the man turned 40 and YUM. I don’t even like blondes but I enjoyed that glow up. He just had some bulk and weight to him”
      He’s all yours. 🙂
      “I’m always ready to change my physical type on a dime for someone whose character I enjoy.”
      I have a general type but it’s not a hard and fast rule.

      1. 35.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Billie Joe. Sean Penn. Attitude. If this is what you fall for, it’s not hard to diagnose why it’s seemingly impossible to find an attractive guy who gives you comfort. Attitude and comfort don’t mix.

      2. 35.1.2
        S.

        @ Emily, to

        You mention men I have to Google to know who they are. 🙂 I know Sean Penn. But yeah, I like a little weight. Heck, I’m one of those not healthy thin people but I have a can of my own, lol.

        Nope, no blondes for me. I like a good glow up, though.

        A strong sense of self? I don’t think a Googled photo of Billie Joe Armstrong will help me understand that. And Sean Penn seemed like an jerk, honestly. He can act and all, but I didn’t sense immense kindness from him. Sometimes a person has such a strong sense of self, that they aren’t thinking about the other person. How do men like that treat the women they date is what, I think? No way I’d be in a relationship with Sean Penn.

        Actors are difficult because we don’t really know their real personalities, just what we read or hear third-hand. But in real life, the guys who I know who have a strong sense of self, it’s hard for them to see past that to me and my needs.

        You’ve found it different in real life?

        1. Emily, to

          S.,
          “Nope, no blondes for me. I like a good glow up, though.”
          What do you mean by a good glow up? A tan?
          “A strong sense of self? I don’t think a Googled photo of Billie Joe Armstrong will help me understand that. And Sean Penn seemed like an jerk, honestly. He can act and all, but I didn’t sense immense kindness from him”.
          I meant that Sean Penn takes chances. He went to Louisiana to help Hurricane Katrina victims. People thought he was showboating. He didn’t care. He wrote articles for (I believe) the San Francisco Chronicle. He was criticized for not having journalistic credentials. He didn’t care. That ballsiness I find appealing.
          “You’ve found it different in real life?”
          I don’t know anybody like that. Most people I know follow along with the program and don’t question it.

        2. S.

          What do you mean by a good glow up? A tan?
          LOL! No. 🙂 Glow up:
          https://voxatl.org/the-art-of-glowing-up/

          He was criticized for not having journalistic credentials. He didn’t care. That ballsiness I find appealing.

          But do you think he treats the women in his life well? That’s all that matters. I want a man who cares. Ballsiness is second. Or even third.

          You mean you don’t know a man in real life who has a strong sense of self? Or has a strong sense of self *and* cares about a woman’s needs?

          I think what Evan says above are the two traits aren’t usually in the same person. Which sucks because one shouldn’t have to choose. But if I had to choose, I’d choose kindness and sensitive to my needs. Every time. This is a man I potentially want to spend the rest of my life with. Ballsiness is a not a trait I want when he’s pushing my wheelchair at age 85.

          Do you ever think of it that way? Will Ballsy Man hold your hair when you throw up from chemo? Will he support you when you haven’t found a job you love for years and despair of ever finding one you like? Will he have an ever stalwart faith in you?
          I don’t need ballsy. I need courage, consistency, caring. And someone who can focus on me sometimes. If he’s ballsy when standing up for me and my needs, awesome. But we are interviewing candidates and I want the person dedicated to the mission of the company–me.

          But maybe you differ?

        3. Emily, to

          S.,
          So I guess glow up means to get hot? Or maybe come into your own?

          “You mean you don’t know a man in real life who has a strong sense of self?
          Well, no, not that take any chances. They go to work and do what they’re told. Which I guess we all have to but there doesn’t even seem to be a shred of rebellion against it.

          “This is a man I potentially want to spend the rest of my life with. Ballsiness is a not a trait I want when he’s pushing my wheelchair at age 85.Do you ever think of it that way?”
          Yes. But it seems really far off into the future.

        4. Mina Harker

          Emily,
          We project qualities onto celebrities that they don’t have. If you spent a few days in Seen Penn’s company you’d be disappointed to realize he’s basically the same as everybody else. I mean, an a-list celebrity doing charity work with cameras coveneinetly in the vicinity? Come on, there are many normal people giving much more of themselves and you wouldn’t even notice.

        5. Emily, to

          Mina,
          “If you spent a few days in Seen Penn’s company you’d be disappointed to realize he’s basically the same as everybody else.”
          I don’t want to get to know him. Just spend a few hours alone in a room with him. I think he could get the job done. 🙂

        6. Mina Harker

          Sure, because he’s a famous actor, not because he does charity work, ie this is not a line of thinking that in any way relates to real life.

        7. Emily, to

          Mina,
          “Sure, because he’s a famous actor,”
          I have to make reference to famous people. This is a blog where none of us know each other irl so I can’t make reference to the guy down the street. His public persona is one in which he has a strong sense of self. I find that attractive. That is all I’m saying. He’s simply an example. I have no idea what he’s really like as a person, and I don’t really care.

      3. 35.1.3
        Nissa

        It’s funny. When I was younger, all the guys I dated were skinny. Turns out it wasn’t my “type”, we were all just skinnier when we were younger *grin*. Another blast from the past – Rick Schroeder that I adored when younger got “wider” and his looks are really different now.

        Interestingly, there are a few guys that I don’t find classically handsome that I’d bed in a heartbeat – Tom Hardy, Jonathan Rhys Meyers, Taron Egerton, Ryan Reynolds,Justin Theroux. There are handsome men that leave me cold – Jason Lewis, Rob Lowe, Rock Hudson. Then there’s the crossover, attractive and chemistry – John Cho, Chris Hemsworth, Mark Strong, Alexander Skarsgard, Joe Manganiello, John Stamos, Colin Firth, Sean Connery, Heath Ledger, Scott Bakula.

        What I notice is that after I’ve seen an interview of someone, my attraction for them often changes. Taron Egerton is a sweetheart who seems kind and caring. Johnny Depp, I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole, as he seems so out of it. Chris Evans, who I used to see as very attractive, seems like a misogynist- and my attraction to him dropped by half.

        It’s obvious to me that a great deal of this is based on presentation, not the inherent baseline attractiveness. Matthew Hussey isn’t really that cute, but he dresses well, is caring and funny – and thus became more attractive. I’d say that a great deal depends on confidence, something that a lot of people don’t have. People who have “attitude” and act like jerks will seem a lot less attractive once they display that side of themselves.

        1. Emily, to

          Nissa,
          “Then there’s the crossover, attractive and chemistry – John Cho, Chris Hemsworth, Mark Strong, Alexander Skarsgard, Joe Manganiello, John Stamos, Colin Firth, Sean Connery, Heath Ledger, Scott Bakula.”
          How can you tell? For me, I have to be in the room, in person, to know if there’s chemistry. I might find them appealing but not more than that from pic or video. Chemistry is an energy. I have to see if it’s there in person. And a million times yes on Colin Firth.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          Enough with the celeb crushes. Including ones on other dating coaches. If you stumbled upon a men’s site talking about women and their looks, you’d probably look askance.

        3. sylvana

          Emily,

          I’d say chemistry is a way to measure how two energies work with each other. Not an energy itself.

          And you can absolutely read a person’s energy from as far away as you want, including from pictures and videos. Practice, you’ll be surprised what you find :). That being said, pictures and videos will only show you the person’s energy at that particular moment or time.

          That’s why it’s a lot harder to measure chemistry from a picture or video. Because underlying emotions (happiness, sadness, angriness, stress, excitement, etc.) at the time the picture or video was taken can influence that person’s overall energy at that time.

        4. Emily, to

          Sylvana,
          “I’d say chemistry is a way to measure how two energies work with each other. Not an energy itself.”
          However you want to define it. For me, I can tell if someone is physically appealing to me and if someone is “my type” from a picture but I have to be in the room with him to really determine if I’m physically attracted. A video is a bit different because you can hear his voice and see his mannerisms, which can tell you more than a pic. But, still, the proof in the pudding is meeting someone face to face. I’ve met men who I was attracted to irl whose photograph wouldn’t have appealed to me If I saw it before meeting them and vice versa.
          “That being said, pictures and videos will only show you the person’s energy at that particular moment or time.”
          This is true. So if you like what they’re projecting in the pic but they don’t carry that quality around with them all the time, you may be disappointed.

  16. 36
    Marika

    Thanks Evan. No, I thought you had to pay extra for the chat group.
    (Sorry all. Didn’t mean to take over the blog with admin stuff!).

    Adrian,

    I would say my biggest challenge is that I don’t like the dating process much. I love being in a relationship, I’m fine being single, but the dating thing itself I don’t really enjoy. Unless I go on lots of dates with guys I don’t care much about (and pay my own way!! Let me hasten to add!). But when I really like someone, I’m not good with the boundaries stuff and letting them reveal themselves over time and taking each day as it comes. I find it easy to trust people. I don’t find it easy to cut them loose when they’ve shown they can’t be trusted.

    I’m also not overtly sexual on a first date or a natural flirt. I’ve had quite a few situations where the guy couldn’t tell I liked him and/or when the guy concluded there was ‘no chemistry’ after 5 minutes and one drink because we live in a world of chasing instant chemistry. If we’d had a second date, there would have been chemistry, I just needed a bit of space to get my head and my body to sync. So then I started being much more overtly touchy and, for me, quite over the top with the displays of chemistry on first dates. Well that backfired, as both those guys I practised being way more flirty with I actually wasn’t that interested in and almost a year later they still text me and try to see me and I don’t know how to let them down easy. (Well, actually, I feel like I did but it was clearly too subtle as they are still trying).

    None of this is to say that I’m so perfect and wonderful that none of my dating issues are around my stuff. Of course, I need to work on some things around insecurity and being calmer when stressed and letting stuff go. But I know for a fact I’m not selfish. In a relationship I’m very mindful of the other person, warm, giving and could never be happy getting my needs met at the expense of theirs. I’m also not all hung up on income and height. In fact, I do much better with more down to earth guys (and since I like the Latinos, height is def no big deal 😉 ).

    1. 36.1
      Adrian

      Hi Mariks,

      I agree the dating process is exhausting (at least for me). What do you do to avoid burnout?

      You said, “Other times they are crappy daters and blaming lack of chemistry”

      Clare said, “There have been so many times when I have looked at a guy’s behaviour/conversation on a date and thought how much different/better the date might have turned out the behaviour had been better.”

      I apologize for jumping in your conversation but I agree with this 100%. This has been the main reason that dating is so difficult for me. People who want instant chemistry and yet they DON’T try to contribute to building it (I have never yet had a woman try to make me laugh on a 1st date). People who don’t see what they are doing or what they are not doing to make the date bad or boring are exhausting.

  17. 37
    Clare

    Marika,

    “Can we please clarify that going about our day we maybe see 5% of hotties hot hot.

    NOT that we only find 5% of the entire male population attractive.”

    Yes, that is true. In fact, I would venture to say that, with most men, I can look at them and think, I have a friend/family member who would find you attractive. Or I think *someone* will definitely be attracted to you. It just isn’t me, most of the time. But we all have such different preferences, as has already been demonstrated here, that that is hardly surprising. My girlfriends and I point out quite often that it is a good job that we are not all attracted to exactly the same men because it makes for very little competitiveness between us.

    “I’m also not overtly sexual on a first date or a natural flirt. I’ve had quite a few situations where the guy couldn’t tell I liked him and/or when the guy concluded there was ‘no chemistry’ after 5 minutes and one drink because we live in a world of chasing instant chemistry… So then I started being much more overtly touchy and, for me, quite over the top with the displays of chemistry on first dates.”

    You come across as so perceptive and aware of other people in your comments on this blog, so I must say it really surprises me that you have this challenge. Could it possibly be a case of trying too hard? Or getting in your own way because of a hang-up you have about this? Personally, I find that chemistry is like a butterfly. The more you chase it and try to make it happen, the more it eludes you. But if you just chill and relax, you’d be amazed what can happen.

  18. 38
    sylvana

    YAG,

    isn’t that an oxymoron:

    “From what I have seen, women prefer men that other women desire”. Yet, at the same time: “A man loses his options when he settles into a relationship whereas a woman never loses her options;”

    If a man is desired by other women, his relationship status doesn’t matter. Him being desired by other women gives him options. Just like her relationship status doesn’t matter to the men who desire her. If anything, being in a relationships makes him even more desirable. Since we know that there are women who like taken men, because they’ve proven themselves to be a desirable partner to another woman.

    1. 38.1
      Emily, to

      Sylvana
      ” If anything, being in a relationships makes him even more desirable. Since we know that there are women who like taken men, because they’ve proven themselves to be a desirable partner to another woman.”
      Also, it’s kind of like the old saying that it’s easier to get a job when you have a job because you’re coming from a place of strength. When man is in a relationship, there’s a certain amount of self-containment because his relationship needs are ostensibly being at least somewhat met. His entire energy is different.

    2. 38.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @sylvana

      Actually, it is not an oxymoron. Men are at a distinct disadvantage when they settle down into a relationship because they have to stop pursuing women. Even if a man is desirable to other women, he needs to pursue in order to maintain options. Very few women pursue men; therefore, it takes a while for a man to re-prime the pipeline so to speak. The amount of time necessary to re-prime the pipeline can be as short as a week for as long as several months to a year or more. On the other hand, men continue to actively flirt with and try to game women even after they are taken because men are dogs (yes, I said it). While select women will actively flirt with taken men, I have yet to see one who will brazenly do it in front of a man’s girlfriend or wife. I have seen men brazenly flirt with a taken woman in front of her boyfriend or husband. In fact, I have been on both sides of this experience (I bet that most of the women on who read this blog have experienced it). It is part of the out alpha the other guy instinct that is ingrained in men. It is so common that there are videos like these two that teach young inexperienced men how to handle the situation:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pUnxHhpYjY
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGRBP_RXBPk

      Once again, men are dogs who will often not respect relationship boundaries when the see something that they desire. Out alphaing a guy who is hitting on your woman is an art form because it is a situation that can turn volatile in a split second.

      1. 38.2.1
        No Name To Give

        YAG,

        You have said you are in a good relationship. But you also say it sucks because men have to give up pursuing other women while in a relationship. What?

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @NNTG

          I did not say that is sucks that a man has to give up his options. I said that men are at disadvantage. They volunteer to be at a disadvantage.

      2. 38.2.2
        shaukat

        @Yag,
        ‘Very few women pursue men; therefore, it takes a while for a man to re-prime the pipeline so to speak. The amount of time necessary to re-prime the pipeline can be as short as a week for as long as several months to a year or more.’

        Agree completely.

        ‘Once again, men are dogs who will often not respect relationship boundaries when the see something that they desire.’

        Completely disagree. This is a caricatured stereotype that does no good to anyone. I can think of numerous examples from my own life where guys have apologized when they realize a woman they were hitting on was with someone. Cringe PUA videos aren’t convincing.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @shaukat

          I have witnessed apologetic and non-apologetic situations. Believe or not, there are guys who do not care if a woman is with another man. I am not proud of it, but I used to be one of these guys.

          I would not call the videos I posted PUA videos. A PUA video would be one that taught men how to be the interloper in this situation. These videos show an inexperienced guy how to handle the situation without things going volatile or appearing to be weak or insecure.

        2. sylvana

          Shaukat,

          I agree with you. As a matter of fact, I’d say that women are way more predatory when it comes to pursuing taken men than men are when it comes to pursuing taken women.

          If nothing else, for the sheer risk of physical confrontation. Men have a way higher chance of fighting.

          And speaking of fighting – what do you think sets off the bitch fights in bars?

      3. 38.2.3
        sylvana

        YAG,

        If you haven’t seen women actively flirt with taken men in front of their girlfriends or wives its’ because you weren’t looking. Because you’re too busy watching other men. Take it from women – they DO. And we know that, because – like you – we watched our competition, aka other women.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @sylvana

          While it occurs, the frequency is much smaller than the reverse. We are talking about an active role. It is much easier for an unattached man to flirt than an attached man lest he find himself sleeping on the couch. Granted, some women tell such a man to move on, but a sizable percentage do nothing because they enjoy the attention. My current girlfriend is a flirt. I literally could not leave her alone without some guy attempting to chat her up. My solution was to find the most attractive woman in the room and flirt with her, which unnerved my girlfriend to the point where she stopped flirting with other men and does not let me out of her sight. As Jeremy mentioned, dread is a powerful motivator.

  19. 39
    S.

    @Marika #36

    No worries about the admin. Good to see a little of the process. I feel similarly about dating. I’ve been talking to my platonic male friends and they talk about fun and play. I think to myself, “Fun? Who ever said this process would be fun?” It is fun when you have hope in the beginning and believe it might work out. But then there is the worry, the holding back, the trying not too get attached but knowing you have to trust and put yourself out there not knowing what may happen. Most men at that stage (though not all) are mostly thinking about whether they are going to get laid. 🙂

    Did Evan’s program help you have more fun with dating? I date men of color as well. No one else has mentioned that. And working class men. Sometimes the things people talk about here (women with nannies and stuff) are really in a different world than I am in. In my world, my folks *are* the nannies. So I just observe here a lot kinda like in real life.

  20. 40
    Marika

    Hi all

    With the chemistry thing, of course if you could never feel any attraction for a blond, tall, skinny guy (eg) you wouldn’t date him.

    BUT: when we’re talking online dating, you’ve already determined before even meeting them that there is some level of attraction there. Of course, in person, it could be less or more than you feel when seeing their photos. But unless they were blind drunk, boring AF, or looked nothing like their photo, it’s very unlikely to feel NO chemistry with an online date. So that doesn’t really fly. And if date no. 1 isn’t amazing (but not terrible), what’s the harm in one more date??

    Eg I mentioned some time ago I met a model-hot Brazilian. He was by far the most gorgeous man I’ve ever dated, and close to the most gorgeous man I’ve ever seen in normal life. Chemistry in person was weaker than his pics as he was self-absorbed and didn’t have any topics of conversation other than health/diet/himself. I still felt chemistry for him! Just nowhere near as much. And he is an extreme example, both incredibly hot and incredibly boring is rare. I’ve also spoken about an overweight guy I met in Austria I wouldn’t have given a second glance to, but once he spoke and after we spent a few hours together my attraction went from a 4 to an 8. Probably would have gone higher if he wasn’t leaving the country that day 🙁

    Now, if the ‘chemistry is either there or not and you know 100% in the first 30 seconds’ is working for you and you’re happily married (e.g Sparkling), then all good and continue on. But the people who are single in my social circle (and here) who constantly chase chemistry and ‘just know’, but actually are blind to the fact that this HAS NEVER worked out to produce a long-term, happy, loving relationship…I’m not sure what the point is in constantly justifying this approach.

    I think some people would rather be single forever than try something new!

    1. 40.1
      sylvana

      Marika,

      Finding someone to look attractive (aka be good-looking) and being attracted to someone are two different things.

      A person can look good enough, and sound good enough to go on a date with, That doesn’t mean you’re attracted to them. You determine that when you meet. Likewise, if you had lower or even mid attraction to that person before you go on a date, and you meeting them makes that evaporate, you no longer feel ANY attraction at all.

      And the reason you still felt a chemistry for the hot Brazilian is because it was high or very high before you met. Or because the visual plays a bigger role in who you are attracted to than it does to other people.

      The other thing to take into consideration is this: Myself, Emily, and Sparkling Emerald have kept dating people who we felt no or low attraction/chemistry to/with. And guess what? It has never worked to produce a long-term, happy, loving relationship. Why? Because the attraction level never changed, no matter how many other wonderful qualities the person brought in. We kept feeling either no or way too low attraction.

      You don’t know what these people have tried before. And we HAVE tried it.

      Once again, I think it all boils down to what triggers a response of chemistry/attraction in each individual person. If it is mainly a person’s energy, there isn’t a single thing the other person can do to improve chemistry or attraction.

    2. 40.2
      SparklingEmerald

      Marika at 40 “BUT: when we’re talking online dating, you’ve already determined before even meeting them that there is some level of attraction there. Of course, in person, it could be less or more than you feel when seeing their photos.”

      Actually Marika, when I was in OLD, I examined a profile for POTENTIAL attraction and POTENTIAL compatibility. So no, it is not pre-determined that attraction is there. For me, it was just determined that there was nothing about the pics or profiles that definitely ruled OUT attraction or compatibility.

      For me, attraction is not just looks. A still photo can capture looks somewhat, but how a person animates their face and body also plays a role. Someone could post some nice still photos, but ONLY in person could I determine attraction. I am not “attracted” to a photo, I can only determine from a photo that I MIGHT be attracted, or I might determine NO. WAY !

      One man I dated appeared nice looking in his photos, but in person, he had REALLY bad teeth. They were his back teeth, so they did not show in his photos, but in person, when he was talking I could see those knarly, fang like yellow teeth that the profile pics did not reveal. So his pictures weren’t innaccurate, per se, but they were incomplete. Not that expect anyone to show their teeth beyond their eyeteeth in a photo, but his teeth really gave me the willies. But you know what, he was a very kind soul, and he appeared to be smitten with me, and I felt TERRIBLE when I had to end our meet and greet with “Thanks for coming out to meet me, but I don’t think we are a match”.

      I never KNOW if I am attracted by a picture, there has to be a in person meeting for me to determine that, and it can go up or down from there, due to speech mannerism, body language, physical traits not revealed in the photo. Also, I really do believe pheremones are involved, because I have met men who were nice enough looking, pleasant enough personalities and no obvious traits that were turning me off, but something left me cold, and even a good bye hug made me wince a bit. Can’t explain it, nor do I have to, it really wouldn’t be fair to go on a 2nd date with someone if I was recoiling from their touch.

      I remember putting my hubbies match.com photo under a metaphorical microscope examining his moustache and goatee. I am a fan of clean shaven, but some neatly trimmed facial hair is sometimes OK. (It’s the bushy Duck Dynasty beard that immediately rules out a guy for me). Moustache and goatee are a sometimes yes, sometimes no. He was so handsome and his profile seemed to reveal potential compatibility, so I decided to go for it. I even skipped the phone call, because I was encountering so many men who were resistant, so I decide to only use the phone ONLY if the man INITIATED a phone call. My sweetie suggested we meet for coffee after exchanging e-mails for several days. I really enjoyed our e-mail convo’s, so I thought I would take a chance. The rest they say is history !

      Any way, I think different people are wired differently as far as attraction goes. Some women say they can go from no attraction to attraction, and if that has been their experience, I believe them. I know from experience that it is a no go for me, but I have still tried it, and it hasn’t worked. I guess for women who experience it differently there is the temptation to make that wrong somehow, to chalk it up to an addicitive personality, or some deliberate trait.

      Science has determined that there is a “cilantro” gene, that your DNA can determine if you will like cilantro or not. I think our food preferences are ingrained, and so is our attraction. We women (or men for that matter) could be scolded, nagged and shamed for attraction style, but at the end of the day, you aren’t going to shame anyone into attraction, any more than you can shame someone into liking brussel sprouts.

      Not saying that you are necessarily trying to shame us, but little remarks like “some people would rather be single forever, than try something new” does indicate that you are not totally accepting that someone “just know” when they AREN’T attracted.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *