Dateonomics by Jon Birger – Book Review by Evan Marc Katz

Date-Onomics Book
Every day I read something new about dating and relationships. Usually, it’s an article or study that I share on Thursdays. But I rarely read books about dating; it’s too much like my day job. When I’m done with work, I generally prefer dysfunctional family fiction by, say, Jonathan Franzen or Elizabeth Strout.

Yet every so often, I come across a book that intrigues me enough to review. There was Hanna Rosin’s “The End of Men.” There was Laura Kipnis’s “Men”, and there was Suzanne Venker’s “How to Choose a Husband”.

Today, I want to tell you about Jon Birger’s “Dateonomics.”

It’s going to get a lot of news coverage – and it should – for it highlights some sobering facts about the perception that there are “no good men out there.”

I’ll admit, I went into the read with a very skeptical eye. A big part of my business is giving women hope. Not false hope; I’m the world’s worst liar and fake cheerleader. But I have always believed that for every good woman, there is an equivalent good man. By the time you’re done reading “Dateonomics,” you might think otherwise.

The premise of the book is simple: the gap between college-educated women and college-educated men is widening rapidly. In 1981, there was about a 50/50 split between college graduates from both genders. Look at what happened in 30 years:

“In 2012, women earned 1,025,729 bachelors vs. 765,317 for men. That’s 34% more women than men who graduated from college. It’s predicted that by 2023, women college graduates will outnumber men by 47%.

Why does that make a difference? Birger suggests that it’s nothing more than a math equation. Men are buyers. Women are sellers. And when there are too many sellers, the buyers have control and can drive the prices down. Specifically for sex.

If a guy can get a woman to come to his house for sex without a phone call, without dinner and a movie, and without exclusivity, what incentive does he have to stop?

In Birger’s words, “Lopsided gender ratios turn some nice guys into monsters.”

Basically, an average guy can get on Tinder, swipe right, and text a dozen women at once. And since there are so many more women than men, the women feel they’re “competing” for his affections. This naturally affects the way men court women.

They don’t.

They don’t have to.

If a guy can get a woman to come to his house for sex without a phone call, without dinner and a movie, and without exclusivity, what incentive does he have to stop?.

Birger puts into numbers the patterns we’ve been observing anecdotally. Women in cities like New York really do have the deck stacked against them.

“Subtract the estimated gay and lesbian population from Manhattan’s total population count, and you wind up with a hetero dating pool with 39 percent more college-educated women than men age 22 to 39. For college grads, age 22 to 29, removing the gay and lesbian population from the numbers pushes the oversupply of women relative to men up from 39 percent to 54 percent.”

Harrowing, huh? And it only gets worse as you get older.

“Today’s 40-year-old college educated woman started out in a dating pool with 117 women for every 100 men, or 17 percent more women than men…However, once two-thirds of the men in the 40-year-old’s original dating pool had gotten married, the remaining single women were confronted by a far more daunting dating market, one with 50 women for every 33 men. That’s 52% more women than men.”

Now, to be fair, this seems to assume that the dating pool is static – that people get married and are off the market forever. In fact, a decent percent of men get married AND divorced before 40. The average age of divorce is 30 and a full 60% of the men who marry between 20-25 get divorced. All of them go right back into the dating pool. Regardless, these are pretty eye-opening numbers that Birger suggests are tantamount to a game of musical chairs:

If there are three women for every two men, and two couples pair off, that leaves one woman standing alone.

Eventually, most men WANT to commit. Which is why 80% of the population still gets married.

It’s a fair point, but I don’t think it’s that simple. For even though Birger is presumably correct on the statistics, it does not mean the story is over and that women should give up. Not by a long shot.

First, there is something a bit elitist in only giving numbers on college-educated women who want college-educated men. People with Bachelors degrees only account for only 40% of the population. That leaves 60% of the population. I understand why educated people want to date educated people, but let’s not pretend that everyone who didn’t go to college is a drooling moron.

Next, I have to somewhat quibble with the musical chairs theory. Technically, if you lined up 1,025,729 women and 765,317 men (people who graduated college in 2012) and made them all pair up, sure enough, you’d have 250,000 women twiddling their thumbs. But that’s not how dating works.

Many women are focused on their careers. Many women have no interest in dating. Many women are depressed or in a bad emotional state. Many women have given up on men. Many women have no desire to be married. There are a LOT of women who have opted out of the marriage sweepstakes, in other words. Now, we don’t know if there are an equal number of men who have opted out, but I think it’s safe to say the musical chairs metaphor doesn’t quite hold water. It’s not like we’re looking at 100,000,000 chairs for 120,000,000 people. The numbers are too fluid – and also too large.

No matter where you go, no matter what your gender, there’s going to be a finite number of people who are actively dating, emotionally available, attractive, educated, commitment-oriented and interested in you. Go onto Match or OkCupid. That’s a random sampling of what’s out there and both sites’ gender ratios are close to 50/50. And if that’s the case, how much time do you want to spend worrying that, societally, there are more women college graduates than men?

My point is not to entirely negate Birger’s use of game theory, which suggests that men turn into players because they don’t have to commit. It’s just not the full story. Eventually, most men WANT to commit. Which is why 80% of the population still gets married. And why, as a single woman, you’re never going to run out of college educated men to choose from. The game of musical chairs never actually ends. Match will never go out of business, I will never go out of business, and just about everyone who wants to get married eventually gets married.

Long story short: even if there are more women on a macro level, on a micro level, I don’t think it makes that much of a difference. There are still tons of guys out there.

However, the author does make some very salient points that echo things you may have read here – particularly about how female maximizers can be left standing alone because they were consumed with their careers, didn’t prioritize love, and felt they deserved to be picky.

“With a lot at stake in getting it right in one shot, it’s the women who are confident that they are holding a strong hand who are likely to hold out and wait for the perfect prospect.”

This is why it seems that there are a disproportionate number of “quality” 40-year old single women. Like Lori Gottlieb, they were holding out for a 10, while the appropriate guys settled down with other women who may have been less impressive on paper but who prioritized love and compromise.

Birger’s solution to this is that women should pursue men. I don’t think that feels good for most women, nor do I think it’s very effective. What I do concede, is that it behooves all of us to date extensively through our 20’s, to grow and mature, and figure out what works for us, so that we can realistically settle down between 30-35 instead of 35-45. Life doesn’t always work that way, of course, but it’s hard to argue that prioritizing love is, in any way, “bad” for you.

Whether we like it or not, it is a competitive market for women and if you approach your love life seriously and proactively you’re more likely to find the love you want.

The author concludes his sobering math lesson with a few recommendations, based on the numbers alone, as opposed to any real-world practicality.

    1. Choose a college based on its sex ratio. According to Birger, one-quarter of college-educated American couples met in college or grad school. While he’s correct that there are more single college-educated men at age 26 than at age 36, the problem is that 26-year-old men, for the most part, are not really ready to get married. They haven’t lived enough, found their careers, made enough money, slept around enough, nor are they necessarily mature and selfless enough to be health partners. But yes, there are a lot more of them when they’re fresh out of college.

    2. Factor gender ratio into your career decision. Since 10% of couples meet at work, you increase your odds of meeting a man if you go into a science and math career. Of course, then you’d have to marry a science and math guy.

    3. Move West. There are closer to equal male to female ratios in Western states, as compared to Eastern and Southern state. California has a 12% difference for women 30-39. North Carolina has a 38% gap for the same demographic. That’s all well and good, but how many people are going to blindly go to a state with no job and no family to increase their statistical odds of finding a college-educated husband?

    4. Expand dating pool to lesser-educated men. This may sound like the least desirable option, but it’s likely to be the most effective. Look at, say, the dating pool for black women: 112,989 black women vs. 59,119 black men graduated college in 2011. As a result, educated black women have little choice but to consider dating less educated black men – if they choose to date black men. As I’ve written before, there is a sizable difference between dating someone who doesn’t have an advanced degree and dating someone unintelligent. These days, 24% of marriages have a wife that earns more (up from 6% in 1960), so this model is going to be more prevalent in the future.

I know there’s a lot of information here – and I know that there’s the temptation to pull out the most sensational headline from this (“Women are screwed!”), but I would urge you to stay calm.

In a country with 50 million single men, it only stands to reason that there’ll be one who is a perfect fit for you. If you take anything from this book review, it’s that, there is competitive market for women seeking educated men and if you approach your love life seriously and proactively you’re more likely to find the love you want.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Morris

    If a guy is nice, smart and has a good job.(Or any job if the woman is successful.) And a woman isn’t willing to date him because he doesn’t have a college education. What’s the problem? Those women deserve whatever self inflicted circumstance they land themselves in. And vice versa.

    1. 1.1
      jon

      I think from a sociological point of view, the traditional meaning of marriage is doomed.  Traditionally, women married young for financial security because women could not find jobs and had no birth control.  America will become more like Scandinavia with more feminism and less marriage, which may be a good thing.  America will have the accept that lifelong marriage and unwed pregnancies will become the new normal.  Career women can still get pregnant (with sperm donors) without being married.  It might not be ideal but it will be the new normal.  Many will still get married young, have children, and then get divorced.  Then these 45 year old divorced men will marry the single 35 year old women (like Clooney).  So the trend will be 35 year old women marrying older divorced guys and starter wives being alone at 40.  Some women might want the financial indepedence.  If women want companionship, there are plenty of so-called unattractive men available. But there are some women that are wrapped up in their fairytale perfectionist fantasies to ever get married.

      1. 1.1.1
        popee

        No that is not correct. What enables women to have children in Scandinavian countries is not “feminism” but the extremely generous social services such as ONE YEAR maternity leave and free healthcare, and all kinds of support for child rearing. In the ultra-capitalist USA “career” and “children” don’t go together. Companies don’t promote people who go home early. Unless a woman is VERY high-powered in which case she can afford 2 nannies  to take over her 16-hour days at work. That is why women are driven to find wealthy males as partners because only then can one really take time off to care for children, if that is a goal.

         

        1. jon

          If these women want rich husbands, then more 35 year old women will go the older-clooney route of marrying 50 year old divorced men, or at the very least having an affair with an older richer guy and hoping he dumps his wife.  I hear more and more stories of women seeking out married guys because they are more mature and loyal; while younger guys are immature and just want hookups instead of marriage.  But the general idea of a woman needing to marry a rich, successful, mba-educated husband is still a very anti-feminist philosophy.  It means that an alpha-career woman is still dependent on a man for financial support.  I don’t know if the American health care system can support maternity leave for every women, but it should, or you will have more welfare moms taking advantage of the current system.

        2. Henriette

          What is this “free” healthcare of which you write?  I live in a country with healthcare that Americans often refer to as “free” and I am astounded; if you saw my taxes, every year, you might better understand that services in socialised countries are anything but “free.”

          If you want to stay home with children then figure out a budget and save for it.  And if you don’t want to stay home with your children, then don’t bother saving during the years leading up to having a family but don’t blame the “capitalist system” for denying you the right to stay home; accept the fact that you couldn’t be bothered to make certain sacrifices to support this life choice and get back to work.

      2. 1.1.2
        pat

        Annnnnnnnd while we are at it, can we all assume that both you and Morris have such bleak views on women, feminism, and marriage that you will be perpetually single, bitter, and lonely?  Both men and women of all ages and backgrounds get married every day, start families (or not), and live happily – and this will continue to happen, whether you like it or not.  Humans crave human connection and most people will continue to get married for that reason.  Just because you don’t believe it or don’t think it will happen to you, doesn’t mean it isn’t so.

        Really, having such a pessimistic view on marriage and women is extremely unattractive and will get you nowhere in finding love and happiness.  But good luck anyway.

         

         

        1. Morris

          And exactly what in my comment makes you think “you and Morris have such bleak views on women, feminism, and marriage that you will be perpetually single, bitter, and lonely?”

      3. 1.1.3
        DeeGee

        jon said: “But there are some women that are wrapped up in their fairytale perfectionist fantasies to ever get married.

        My personal experience with most of the women I have met or dated, is this exactly.

        1. Noemi

          What are these fantasies you speak of? From my experience with other women, we quickly learn that love isn’t what you see in movies like the notebook or twighlight, whatever that movie was called. Some women may still harbor fantasies of being taken care of, being taken to extravagant dinners and being bought things a la 50 shades of grey, but I never thought this represented the majority of women. It’s shocking to hear things like this from the men on this blog, really.

        2. DeeGee

          Noemi said: “What are these fantasies you speak of?”

          There mere fact that movies like Twilight and books like 50 Shades are extremely popular with women says something about the psyche of women.
          I have never heard a woman say “I wish my boyfriend/husband was less attentive and less romantic”.
          Google anything along the lines of “unrealistic expectations women have of men” for many examples.
          Here is just one link: http://love.allwomenstalk.com/unrealistic-expectations-women-have-of-men
          I could give you personal experiences while dating as well.
          One thing that I have often found with many women, what they say is often different than what they feel.  So while I’ve seen many who say they are grounded, their head is clearly up in the clouds.  I do not mean this in a bad way.

        3. RamboAmy88

          It’s not a fairy tale. Women view marriage this way because when the numbers are in our favor, men REALLY do treat us better and overall the men become better men too.

          If you read the book (which I get the impression that you didn’t) he explains what the dating and marriage culture is like in populations where men outnumber women. Essentially, men become more caring, more devouted, and they work harder to win their female partners. They give women that fairy tale type of relationship that they want. Why? Because the numbers are against them and in order to mate, the men have to put in more work to keep their spouse. Men also work harder for themselves and their families and make more money in places where men outnumber women. When the numbers are in a man’s favor, he quickly looses the incentive to not only treat his women special but he also looses any incentive to work harder for himself.

          Basically men loose their motivation in love and in personal development when the odds are in their favor.

          Surprisingly, women do not change what they want based on the environment like men do. Women change their behaviors and become more promiscuous (to win a mate or to simply adapt) and more pro-feminist (because they feel undervalued) but they don’t truly like adjusting to the standards that men have set. No matter how successful and free women become, they still want men to be providers and still want to settle down with one man. This is obviously hardwired in our DNA.

          That’s were all the drama begins because men have no longer have any incentive to do more for women when women are in the majority so women become more demanding which makes them feel undervalued so they become raging feminist!

          Long story short, society is better off when we are 50/50 or when men outnumber women. But society is a shit show when women out number men.

        4. Russell

          RamboAmy88 said, “Surprisingly, women do not change what they want based on the environment like men do. Women change their behaviors and become more promiscuous (to win a mate or to simply adapt) and more pro-feminist (because they feel undervalued) but they don’t truly like adjusting to the standards that men have set. No matter how successful and free women become, they still want men to be providers and still want to settle down with one man. This is obviously hardwired in our DNA.”

           

          First, let me say that what you just said there was confusing because it has nothing to do with your assertions in the previous paragraph.  In that paragraph you stated that men get lazier when there are too many women, and they don’t have to compete.  To some degree that is true, but not 100%.

           

          The problem arises when you claim that wome do not change when the situation is reversed.  But then you alter that to say that they become more promiscuous, but other than that, they don’t change.  Then to back up your claim, you say that they still want the white picket fence, 2.5 kids, etc…

           

          Ok, let me address the last bit first, along with women being more promiscuous.  The only difference between men and women is that the men become more promiscuous when women out number men, and women become less promiscuous when men outnumber women.  But for women, this only applies to single women.  If women outnumber men, once she has a man, she has to stop being promiscuous in order not.to lose him.  This is the same reason men have to be less promiscuous when there aren’t enough women.  You can be easily replaced.

           

          But as someone who has spent a lot of time in countries where it is the opposite, where women outnumber men, I can assure you that women do change, just as men do.  You noted that when women are in short supply, men try harder, they compete more, they become better men.  Well, the same holds true in reverse.  The women try harder.  I have seen this first hand.  Australia is a great example, and women don’t even outnumber men there, but it is very close to 50/50.  That is enough to make them act much different than American women.  Better if you will.  The difference is immediately noticeable to any American who goes there.

           

          Additionally, there can be too much of a good thing for women.  China is a great example.  Because of past policies, there is a severe shortage of women.  This has caused an epidemic of mental health problems in men, and a large percentage of them have basically given up, such to the point that women there actually have a hard time finding a good man to marry.  It created what they call “Leftover women.”  The women acted overly entitled, so the men who are successful often marry beautiful women from neighboring countries, such as Indonesia, Korea, Vietnam, etc…  So basically, men don’t really change what they want, even when faced with a shortage of women, just like women don’t when there is a shortage of men.  Neither change what they want, but both adjust their expectations, and modify their behavior.

  2. 2
    Julie

    It makes no sense that Birger would advise women to chase men.  These days men KNOW women are desperate.  Too many women are chasing men as it is.  That’s part of the problem.

    1. 2.1
      Biogrl76

      Julie, you are absolutely correct!

    2. 2.2
      Ted

      Depends where you are. Even the older women griping about how men treat them are super picky here.

    3. 2.3
      Prospect

      Then why are there so many complaints from men that women don’t ask men out?

  3. 3
    popee

    I come from a culture that is a million times worse than the New York dating market – Rio de Janeiro. Over there, men expect casual sex a priori without needing to have accomplished anything themselves, and that is consistent across classes.  As a result there are fewer and fewer marriages and it is very difficult to find men who are willing to get into a monogamous relationship. Most of the women in Rio are very attractive while the men are pudgy, short, unshaven and generally unattractive.

    Women are also very well educated, but unlike the women in New York, they are not demanding. And they have a way worse deal than the ladies in NYC.  Because they accept it.  They accept men cheating, having several girlfriends at the same time, and men, act progressively worse because they have no incentive to change. The difference between the American and the Brazilian women (I am a dual citizen:) is that the American women don’t put up with it. American culture in general is very strict about marriage and monogamy.

    The basic difference is this: in tight American dating markets , where women are better educated, women are also MORE demanding and less willing to put up with BS. What that means, is, that New York is a great market for men – IF they are really successful. If they don’t meet the criteria they simply don’t have a lot of options because women prefer being alone to being with someone who is not adding anything to the equation. The men on top of the pile – the lawyers, finance dudes and tech guys working at he Googles of the world get all the girls and the school teachers keep on having a hard time.  I met lots of people while I was dating, I am not picky about looks or height, and a lot of men complained they “can’t get women”. These were men who weren’t interested in dating women their age but were not successful enough to break from the “not marriage material” pack.

    I’d say these numbers about dating apply only to the 10% of the male population that is considered “marriage material” by educated women. The reality is that in this day and age a lot of women have become celibate, because often, no sex is preferable to casual relationships.

    1. 3.1
      Tom10

      @ popee #3
       women prefer being alone to being with someone who is not adding anything to the equation. The men on top of the pile – the lawyers, finance dudes and tech guys working at he Googles of the world get all the girls and the school teachers keep on having a hard time”
       
      This is just seems like madness to the average guy: that many women would prefer to be alone than date a school teacher/moderately successful guy (incidentally, is being a school teacher not equally successful, but in a different way, than a lawyer/finance dude/tech guy working at Google?)
       
      If you said to most guys: if you had to pick between having sex with an average-looking woman or having no sex at all, I’m not sure if any guys would pick the latter: we’d simply adjust our standards to match the environment, as we would have no choice if we wanted to have sex.

      1. 3.1.1
        popee

        I know, Tom, a school teacher, in Manhattan terms means you’ll never be able to be a stay-at-home- mom for 2 years and risk to put your career on hold. It seems so calculating and it is, but women are rarely after sex alone.  Security rates higher than sex for the majority of women.

        Sex is in such easy supply for women at the age of Tinder that it becomes actually undesirable. Meaning, between casual sex (being treated like an escort, with no partnership or companionship as a result) and no sex, you’re better off with no sex because at least you won’t be wasting your time with people who don’t care about you as a person.

        1. Tom10

          @ popee
          I actually think being so calculating is reasonable, as it is up to you to secure your future in whatever manner you think is best. And I also think it’s reasonable for you to seek security, or indeed whatever criteria you seek in a man that suits you.
           
          However, my point wasn’t to draw a comparison between women abstaining from sex and men abstaining from sex, rather drawing a comparison between women abstaining from marriage and guys abstaining from sex.
           
          I understand why women don’t dig casual sex the ways guys do. What I don’t understand however, is why some women would choose to forgo marriage altogether rather than marry someone like a teacher. The “dateonomics” indicated by Jon Birger in his book would seem to indicate that many women simply have no choice: there simply aren’t enough of the guys with the credentials they seek to go around, so they will have to accept the teacher or forgo marriage.
           
          My point is that guys would never consider forgoing sex altogether rather than have sex with average women.

        2. DeeGee

          popee said: “Security rates higher than sex for the majority of women.

          I have no issue with this, I understand the reasoning behind it.  My experience has been that the majority of woman (all women?) typically only want a man who makes significantly more than they do.  I almost never see women choosing to date financial equals, the man always has to make at least twice but preferably three or four times as much as the woman.

      2. 3.1.2
        popee

        You are absolutely correct. I am just explaining that from the female perspective, the  men-in-short-supply logic is only really true among a small subset of the male population.  Because among the female population there are very few true “seekers” meaning, women simply won’t consider some men to be an option, yes, they might end up alone, but it is what it is.  Unless women get used to the idea that they will have to be the head of the household and be the main breadwinners if they want to find a partner.

      3. 3.1.3
        Stillsingleat40

        I am not so sure that there are that many women refusing to date school teachers (at least not where I live). It’s more the men in manual jobs where there is a massive disparity in education but also usually social class, life outlook, interests and aspirations so while, I can see how a man might overlook a woman being overweight or just not that pretty for a short term sexual encounter that won’t go further but women foregoing marriage to someone they have nothing in common with for a life partnership is (at least to me) more understandable. There is a saying that opposites attract but I don’t think that’s true unless we are talking uneducated woman/educated man – largely because men seem to have different relationship needs than women that allows them to overlook different qualities in favour of others and because it is probably more palatable for an uneducated woman to have to move in the more educated social circles of her partner than it is for an educated woman to move down the social ladder. For some reason men seem to be better able to maintain social status than women in this scenario although I am not exactly sure why – probably because society still expects women to marry up the chain and men to marry down.

        1. Josie

          My experience with my educated male friends has been that most of them do seek women with similar intelligence or education.  I remember one male friend explaining that he knew the relationship with his ex was over when he tried to discuss a NY Times article and it flew way over her head.  She liked to bake cupcakes and watch the Kardashians, but he was a more intellectual type.

          The kicker that the book points out is that there are far more educated women than educated men.   I also saw the article today that broke down the author’s findings by locale, which was all the more depressing for me.   My city is on the top ten worst list.

          Subtract the educated men who are gay, who are MGTOWs, who are not looking for a relationship at all, who are update able to most women because of unappealing issues such as substance abuse or gambling, obese … You have a dating pool that is very limited indeed especially for the late 30s-40 women.

        2. Tom10

          @ Josie
          “My experience with my educated male friends has been that most of them do seek women with similar intelligence or education.  I remember one male friend explaining that he knew the relationship with his ex was over when he tried to discuss a NY Times article and it flew way over her head.  She liked to bake cupcakes and watch the Kardashians, but he was a more intellectual type.”
           
          There is certainly some truth to this. That said, a guy will usually filter for looks and age first, then personality/how she makes him and then her smarts and education. I think guys tend to be a little disingenuous on this blog when they say that we don’t care about a woman’s education or career, as the evidence clearly shows that men opt for assortative mating when selecting their long-term partners.
           
          I remember once when I dated a girl like the one your friend did. She was extremely pretty and friendly and made me feel really good…for about 6 weeks…and then it just became tiresome. Now, by no means am I an intellectual snob but when she took a week off work to prepare her outfit for Halloween I just knew we were too different: she was like one of the girls from the Playboy Mansion. Only unfortunately I’m no Hugh Heffner 🙁
           
          @ Stillsingleat40 #3.1.3
          “it is probably more palatable for an uneducated woman to have to move in the more educated social circles of her partner than it is for an educated woman to move down the social ladder. For some reason men seem to be better able to maintain social status than women in this scenario although I am not exactly sure why – probably because society still expects women to marry up the chain and men to marry down.”
           
          This tends to support Jordan’s point #19.1.1: it’s a status thing.
           
          It seems that neither men nor women are prepared to “marry down the chain” anymore…

        3. DeeGee

          Tom10 said: “It seems that neither men nor women are prepared to “marry down the chain” anymore…

          The problem is, both can’t marry up, one of them has to be marrying down in the relationship.  And it will never be the woman.  And I have also yet to meet a woman willing to marry equal.  The comments from the women on this blog also support exactly that.

      4. 3.1.4
        popee

        @DeeGee
        You know what’s interesting, though, is that all the couples I know are made up of equals in every way. What happens is when we go online we are presented with an endless menu of options that are rarely available because everyone has preferences.

        I am inclined to think that in the end, like goes with like and that all the talk of “options” and all that only really applies to the top 5-10% of women and the men- the model types and and the moguls of the world. Everyone else ends up with people they would have met/connected with in real life anyway.

        This is why many of us end up alone, because we think we “can do better” when instead we should accept that we aren’t all that exceptional in the first place. What we end up seeing a lot is really average men wanting women 10+ years younger for casual relationships and “accomplished” but average-looking women wanting exceptionally successful men with lots of money.

      5. 3.1.5
        Alexis

        I agree with popee. I’m a highly educated woman and have been single for a while. I’ve gone on lots of dates but haven’t found a man whom I like and who’s interested in me too. Part of it is my location and also having been working hard for a PhD. The men I meet and am interested in are taken, sadly for me. However, I’d rather stay single than be with a man I’m not excited about. I don’t think I want children so there’s no need for another person in my life in that sense and if I’d just want sex, I’d find a fuckbuddy or FWB. It’s easy for women to find sex, whereas this is harder for most men (if I’m going to have casual sex, the guy better be fit/handsome). Women and men are different and there are different costs to casual sex and commitment because of these differences. I would love to find a man to share big parts of my life with but for me to want to take away time from my career, hobbies and friends, I need to really like the guy.

  4. 4
    Tracy L.

    Today, not only do women have to compete heavily with other women for the attention of a few dateable men. They also have to compete with free internet porn.  Apparently, there are men who see porn as a way to replace real women–I find this to be highly and beyond dysfunctional, however, there are men who enjoy tossing this in the faces of women to remind them that they can be replaced in this manner.

    1. 4.1
      Karmic Equation

      Those men would make awful partners. We should be thanking the internet for helping us weed them out.

      In life, it’s all about perspective, Tracy.

      If you get angry at men who like internet porn, what good does it do you?

      It’s better to say, “Hey, at least now this guy won’t be on the dating market wasting my time. Let him have his porn. Live and let live.”

      1. 4.1.1
        Tracy L.

        “It’s better to say, “Hey, at least now this guy won’t be on the dating market wasting my time. Let him have his porn. Live and let live.”

        I totally agree. I know they’re no loss to me or other women.  As I said, its highly dysfunctional.   Let them date porn.

        1. Tracy L.

          Unfortunately that is not enough for most women.
          I have all of those qualities and more, yet I’m still single.
          Mainly because my income is not currently $100k+ and woman all want to date way up the ladder.

          So why focus on women who don’t want what you can offer? I will never understand that.

      2. 4.1.2
        Scott P

        I don’t completely disagree; however, given the expectations of women, these men are likely better off in the long run.  Both sides of the equation are dysfunctional and neither have found their footing in a culture that no longer accommodates the wiring of our DNA.  Women seek a higher status, but have raised the bar to the point where a decent man making an honest living can’t meet their unconscious agenda.  Both are screwed.  Add in a generation weaned on “women’s studies” and the whole thing is toast.

    2. 4.2
      Jordan

      What is dysfunction about some men choosing porn over real women?

      It seems to me that it is an obvious cost/benefit analysis.

      The costs of dating real women for these men are greater than the benefits, so they choose porn.  It seems logical to me.

      1. 4.2.1
        Tracy L.

        If it is working for you and other men. As I said,  just date porn. And I am sure no woman is going to be missing out.

        Yeah, it’s perfectly normal to prefer masturbation to actual sex with someone else.

        1. Jordan

          ^^^

          Shaming language meant to discredit oppositional debate doesn’t work on me.

        2. Chance

          You might be surprised by how common it is.  Not saying this is the way it should be, but it is an increasingly common attitude among young men.  However, when one reads through the depressing comments made on this topic here, who can really blame them?

           

          I agree with FG’s comments below relating to the area of study that women pursue, though.  Women are more likely to major in a field of study that isn’t financially lucrative.  So, while more women may have a college education, it isn’t necessarily translating into higher financial compensation, generally speaking.

        3. Tom10

          @ Chance
          “You might be surprised by how common it is.”
           
          Er, I don’t think anyone would be surprised by how common it is [young men opting to watch porn]. Lol.

        4. Tracy L.

           
          I believe anyone who talks about the opposite sex in the negative (I.e., I don’t need a man or a woman) has some serious issues…period.
           
          In reference to “few dateable man”, there seems to be many emotionally unstable men in the dating market in all age ranges. For me, a man whom I consider dateable is mentally and emotionally healthy, gainfully employed, independent (has his own place), mature and in good health.  No women should date any man who doesn’t possess these qualities no matter how many degrees and success he has attained.
           
          I do believe most women do prioritize those very qualities in men–they are just very hard to come by these days. 
           

        5. DeeGee

          Tracy L. said: “No women should date any man who doesn’t possess these qualities …

          Unfortunately that is not enough for most women.
          I have all of those qualities and more, yet I’m still single.
          Mainly because my income is not currently $100k+ and woman all want to date way up the ladder.

        6. Chance

          @Tracy L., most men have those qualities.  Assess what you might be doing wrong if you’re only attracting men who don’t fit that mold, and assess how you might be able to improve your selection skills.

        7. Karmic Equation

          “For me, a man whom I consider dateable is mentally and emotionally healthy, gainfully employed, independent (has his own place), mature and in good health.”

          @Chance,

          I started to reply to this post to be in agreement with you. Then I re-read Tracy’s list and, even though I know MANY good men, and currently dating one who makes me happy, I would say he does NOT have all 6 qualities…all the time…LOL

          He suffers from acid reflux and can’t eat spicy foods, so not really healthy in that respect.

          He’s mature in many ways…except when he misses a shot in pool and then he blames someone or something for his missing a shot (the pool version of “victim mentality”). This is his only immature trait. And it is limited to one small aspect of our life, and not doesn’t affect our relationship.

          It does affect our friends’ perceptions of him though, which I don’t think he deserves. Because some of our friends ONLY see him when he’s shooting pool. They don’t see the great guy he is when we’re NOT shooting pool. Ultimately, I come down on the side of “Hey, that’s his cross to bear, not mine.” But still, I want people to see him as positively as I see him so it’s difficult to refrain from  giving him constructive criticism to give off a better vibe.

          He *seems* emotionally healthy now. But I have to question how healthy he was with his ex-fiancee, who was an insecure nut job. He CATERED to her insecurities instead of dumping her ass, like most other men would have. So his “emotional health” I’ll have to vet out over time. We’ve only been dating 5 months so it’s too soon to really tell how emotionally healthy he is. Perhaps emotional health begets emotional health; he is dating *me* after all. haha

          Did I “settle” for this guy? I don’t feel like I have. Because I’m happy.

          @Tracy L,

          If you were dating this guy, would you think you had settled?

          I’m curious.

    3. 4.3
      Morris

      So let me get this straight. When a woman states that she doesn’t need a man. It’s empowerment. When a man states he doesn’t need a woman it’s dysfunctional?

      1. 4.3.1
        Cat5

        I reframed it to be more accurate. I don’t say I don’t need man.  I say I’m not afraid to be alone.

    4. 4.4
      Chance

      As it relates to there being “few dateable men”:  a woman not considering a man dateable because he doesn’t have a college degree is the same thing as a MGTOW not considering a woman dateable because she’s over 30.

      1. 4.4.1
        Karmic Equation

        Sounds like a good analogy, but it’s not.

        MGTOWs not considering a woman dateable who’s over 30 is like women who consider men shorter than she undateable. Aging and height are both beyond either gender’s control.

        A man can get an education. Just like a woman can lose weight. So a man’s lack of education is more analogous to a woman being overweight, both are within each gender’s control.

        That said, I agree that women who consider men without higher degrees “uneducated” is elitist. There are many people, men and women, with degrees who are dumb as doorknobs.

        Lets’ just look at politicians. Most lack common sense or are outright stupid, imho.

        1. Morris

          “Lets’ just look at politicians. Most lack common sense or are outright stupid, imho.”

          Sooooo true. Made me think of wannabe Prez Donald Trump. Ivy League education and super successful. On paper the perfect guy for women!

        2. Noemi

          Is it that politicians are stupid, or rather the ignorant masses that they cater to? Donald Trump is merely preaching to those who actually believe that he can feasibly do all the things he speaks about ( removing all illegal immigrants? Face palm!). As for his inane remarks, any attention by the media is good attention! The guy knows exactly what he is doing!  On a side note, I agree with you that education is not a good indicator of intelligence and ambition. I teach undergrads, and boy oh boy are some of them lazy and unmotivated!

        3. Chance

          KE, you make a fair point, but my point is that they’re both examples of someone rejecting another for a silly and superficial reason that shouldn’t have any bearing on the success of the relationship.  So in that sense, short/fat/”old”/”uneducated” are interchangeable to me, but you’re right in that age and height cannot be helped in any circumstance.  However, a fair amount of ladies may disagree with your assertion that weight can be helped😉

        4. Karmic Equation

          Weight is a LOT harder for women to keep off or take off than men due since we have less muscle mass and often slower metabolism, especially around menopause. Double ding 🙂

          This may sound silly, but if a woman is single, she actually has a lot more time on her hands than when she is coupled up. If there is a time for women to trim up and get in shape is when she is single. Killing time at the gym instead of bemoaning her single status with Ben & Jerry’s is probably the wisest use of her spare time.

          I’m usually at my fittest when single. Then I get a boyfriend and it’s work work work to try to keep the weight off since finding time for the gym is much tougher when I prefer to spend my spare time with him that with gym equipment 🙂

        5. Scott P

          I’m not entirely sure that education is an indicator of intelligence and women are making a conscious decision based on that factor.  I believe it is more likely indicative of their motivation and potential, which is being factored more unconsciously.  There are a lot of men these days that have no mission, no drive.  If they didn’t pursue higher education, many of not most such men have likely carried that same lack of drive into adulthood.  My experience is that a woman will respond to a man who has somewhere he wants to go in life and is  chasing it. It doesn’t have to be high-fallutin.  As for men, meh.  A woman on a mission is either nice or obnoxious, but it isn’t all that necessary for attraction.  It is obnoxious, btw, when it is the typical social justice stuff that is more about her identity than it is about achieving an end result.  This sort I run away from because it doesn’t matter the intellectual nuisances of the “cause”, only what the group-think consensus is regarding the right answer and whether it is adhered to.

      2. 4.4.2
        Josie

        In my case, I won’t reject a man for not having a bachelors, but I will reject him for inability to carry a good conversation about interesting topics, and generally show some cultural sensitivity. I do find that while there are exceptions, I have more intellectual connection with men who hold a BA or BS at least.  Then there is the issue of the non-degreed beta men who actually disqualify themselves from dating a woman with multiple graduate degrees.

    5. 4.5
      pat

      The men who “throw it in your face” are men who are socially inept and not “marriage material” anyway.  Most decent guys I know would never do this.  You just need to surround yourself with higher caliber men.  It shouldn’t be hard – there are a lot of good guys out there.

    6. 4.6
      DeeGee

      Tracy L. said: “there are men who enjoy tossing this in the faces of women

      I hope that wording wasn’t intentional.

  5. 5
    FG

    Well, there is a difference between attending a few classes in Uni, getting an Associate degree, or a Bachelor. Whether in Canada or the US, bachelors account for 17% of the population.

    Then another factor must be considered. Sciences, or engineering, law, the tougher faculties if you wish, are not the same as fluff (sorry). Management and history of arts hardly mix.

    Just saying 🙂

  6. 6
    FG

    As to the parallel debate, a female friend of mine was talking about her boyfriend, and she said he watched a lot of porn, but that in the end, SHE was the beneficiary. All depends on the outlook, I guess.

  7. 7
    Karl S

    Tinder is definitely still a seller’s market as far as I can tell. Last I heard it was 2/3 male vs 1/3 female. A lot of women on there specifically state they’re not looking for hookups too. I imagine only that small percentage of men who are very good looking make use of tinder as a conga-line of casual sex options.

    I know a few women who do pretty well as the pursuers, but they’re your avant-garde, bohemian artist types who are staunchly left wing, feminist and highly politicized. The kind of men they’d chase would be of a similar vein and wouldn’t be threatened by a woman taking that active role.

    1. 7.1
      Josie

      Karl, you don’t have to imagine.  Just read the recent Vanity Fair article about Tinder.

      Yes, women on Tinder most often say they don’t want to hookup and I’m one of those.  but just because a woman says she does not want hookups she may still be one of those gals who is easily cajoled into the sack on the third date. There are plenty of women with low self esteem who seem to lower the playing field for everyone.

      1. 7.1.1
        Karl S

        I had a read of the article and I have to wonder if it was just a coincidence the men she interviewed included 3 investment bankers, a photographer, a marketing executive, a guy in the fitness industry (personal trainer?) and a local rocker star. Would you get the same answers from someone in engineering? Or accounting? Most of the guys in the article were in career paths pretty renowned for womanizing behavior even before tinder, so its no wonder the results were so extreme.

        1. Karl S

          *rock star.

      2. 7.1.2
        jon

        Josie, I think if a woman is really looking for marriage and monogamy, she would be better off trying to find a man at church instead of Tinder.  The reality is that because of birth control and feminism, casual sex is becoming the new normal.  You can’t slut-shame the women who want casual sex.  The right-wing women can stay home and be alone, while men will chase after the left-wing liberal women.  A woman’s fairytale husband and lifelong marriage is false and unrealistic.  Just like not every man is going to marry a blonde perfect 10 model, not every woman is going to marry a rich, handsome Clooney-type.  Scandinavia has embraced feminism and casual sex, and American society will change to that direction.

        1. popee

          Nope.  Casual sex is not the “new normal”. Casual sex is only the “new normal” for highly desirable men… I have had casual sex with men from Tinder – they were both “10s”. The types of men who are used to getting women easily offline as well. I have to say none of these were experiences I’d like to repeat and I assume most women feel similarly, it’s emotionally empty, like a transaction it’s like being treated like a prostitute without being paid for it. Actually prostitutes have it better, they are actually compensated for the wasted time.

          The supply of men wanting to offer casual sex is so large that yet again, the odds only benefit those on top of the food chain.  My feeling is, it might be on offer, but there are relatively few takers.

        2. Josie

          Jon,

          I would be the last person to engage in slut-shaming.   I have no problem with casual sex but there is an increasing number of men who are also indicating in their Tinder profile that they desire a long term relationship.

          My point is that on a medium like Tinder, you will have a lot of women who lack self esteem,  these women are less likely to resist a full court press for sex after one or two dates.

          I am a left wing liberal type,  not a church goer so meeting a man there would be disingenuous.  I certainly don’t use Tinder as the sole means of dating.  I primarily use Match.

          However, I have noticed how mainstream Tinder has become, as a means of dating in addition to its well known purpose of facilitating hook ups.  I began talking to one man on Tinder who is an attractive professional type (great on paper). We had some promising conversations via text, but there were eventually some red flags with his communications.   I signed into my Match account and he had viewed my profile.

          I also went on a date with a man I met from Match, another high income professional.  He apparently was not into me because he did not call or follow up from the date after several days.  I noticed  his profile on Tinder also.

           

        3. jon

          josie, hot men and hot women are always players in the dating market. You can blame hot alpha men for not committing, but there are plenty of average guys being dumped by alpha women everyday.  Alpha women are just angry and mad that they can’t get the hot alpha men to commit.  Sure, people get married every day, but how many marriages last 50 years?  Marriages easily happen, but divorces are just as common.  I think the new normal is casual sex and shorter-term marriages/relationships.  Just because an old couple is married for 50 years, doesn’t mean they are happy, it might just mean they were too lazy to get a divorce.  The idea of lifelong marriage is unrealistic, and women should focus less on perfection and more on taking things 5 years at a time.

        4. DeeGee

          popee said: “I have had casual sex with men from Tinder … I have to say none of these were experiences I’d like to repeat …

          Then why did you do it multiple times??   :-s
          Plurality underlined.

        5. jon

          popee, if you had sex with those perfect 10 men on Tinder, then that just means you are superficial.  There are plenty of average guys that would be loyal to a woman, yet you seem to not want to give them a chance.  A woman might want monogamy because that provides her with protection, either physical, emotional or financial.  Yet, a guy doesn’t need a woman for protection, he just wants a woman for short-term sex depending on his options.  That’s just how relationships work, men want to have sex, and not much else.  Women don’t want to talk to men about video games, sports, or tech stuff.  If a woman wants a relationship, she will need to find a reason to have a relationship outside of sex.

        6. In Not Of

          Thank God I’ve had children and wanting or being able to make babies is well behind me. I would not be in my twenties again for anything.  Given the direction society is heading, I don’t find staying at home being alone a poor option.

  8. 8
    Michelle

    If this gives hope to college-educated readers – I am working on a PhD and was adamant that I couldn’t possibly date someone without a Master’s degree (needless to say I didn’t date much for the past few years with that rigid criteria!) I am exclusively dating a man with only 1 year’s tertiary education, but through his career in the entertainment industry he has worked all over the world, has a senior management position and makes twice as much money as I do. He has also traveled extensively as a hobby and is very emotionally intelligent. This is when I thanked God for Tinder because I didn’t get hung up on the education section of the profile – I definitely would have passed him up. We always have interesting conversations and his lack of university education has obviously had no negative impact on his career.

    Education isn’t always about going to college.

    1. 8.1
      DeeGee

      Michelle said: “… and makes twice as much money as I do.

      And there it is again people, the main criteria that all women have for a boyfriend or husband.  Surprised?  Not me.  :-/

      1. 8.1.1
        Michelle

        Dude, calm your farm. You don’t want to be that guy. My bf does, in gross terms, make double my pre-tax income –  but also has a massive mortgage being a single parent, and with looking after his two kids, I have more disposable income than he does!

        My point was, that education alone isn’t necessarily an indicator of career success, depending on the industry and experience.

        Not that I have any need to explain myself to you, but I have almost three degrees and because of my field (education) my income will always be modest. However I own my own home, have an investment portfolio and 100% look after myself financially, thank you very much!

        My bf offers a nice environment for us to hang out in his lovely home and beautiful home cooked meals but when it comes to dining out I generally pick up the check (after finding a Groupon!)

        Truly sad you are judgmental of others you know nothing about.

         

         

         

        1. DeeGee

          Michelle said: “You don’t want to be that guy.

          And what guy is that?  The one who exposes the hypocrisy in many women?  And that they almost always only want to date up?
          You are the one who brought up his income in your first statement (and then his “lovely” home and possessions in the following).  If his income didn’t matter to you, you would not have said anything about it, especially since you were replying to comments about education difference.

  9. 9
    Jordan

    If a young man gets married, and starts a family and spends the rest of his life working at a soul-destroying job, he is held up as an example of virtue and responsibility.  The other type of man, living only for himself, working only for himself, doing first one thing and then another simply because he enjoys it and because he has to keep only himself, sleeping where and when he wants, and facing women when he meets her on equal terms and not as one of a million slaves, is rejected by society.  The free, unshackled man has no place in its midst.

    Esther Vilar – The Manipulated Man

  10. 10
    Stillsingleat40

    For me these statistics fall in the category of things I have no control over so I don’t worry about them much. This is not only a pattern in the U.S. but across Western Europe there are lots of single educated women with no men to match. I’m one of them. It is what it is.  Most woman of a certain age have learned that chasing men is pointless unless you are willing to settle for sex with nothing else. I’m not. I’ve been celibate for years and I have accepted it is just the way my life is. I try not to think about it or I get depressed. Yes I have plenty of options with uneducated men, yes I’ve tried dating them and no I didn’t enjoy it so I am one of those that keeps my dating profile active and goes out a lot, but expects to remain single as there is no-one that is a real match left. It is what it is.  Sometimes there are pots with no lids.

    1. 10.1
      Tracy L.

      Hi Stillsingleat40,

      What is it about uneducated/undereducated men that turns you off?  What they can’t hold a stimulating conversation, poor etiquette, are they inarticulate?  Just curious.

       

      1. 10.1.1
        Stillsingleat40

        I have found it to be a mix of things depending on the man. Various things have put me off such as lack of stimulating conversation usually combined with a lack of curiosity or interest in the wider world and lack of ambition in any area of life, poor spelling and grammar, poor etiquette, different social norms (such as them having illegimate children), different aspirations in life.  Some will say that none of these things matter in a romantic relationship but we all operate in a complex network of social relationships and if someone just doesn’t fit at all, I just don’t see what the point is. On the other hand, I have to accept that I look ok for my age but am not the hot young thing I once was. I have a few winkles, the odd grey hair and, although not overweight I am heavier than I once was and am constantly battling to avoid it.  As a consequence, I have to also accept that I am no longer considered a catch.

        1. Tracy L.

           

          All of the reasons you’ve given are quite legitimate in my opinion.  It often appears that once a woman reaches a certain age they are expected to settle, lower, or adjust their standards.  You seem to have resigned yourself to upholding your standards even if it means you might remain single and I totally respect that.  Why would you choose someone you’re not fully into or love or compatible with for the sake of just having a partner? This can cause a great deal of unhappiness, in my opinion. Or why would any man want to be settled for?
          Men are rarely told to adjust or lower their standards or at least I have never witnessed it for myself.  However, that seems to be the recurring sentiment from many of the men on this blog. 

        2. Noemi

          Stillsingleat40, you’re assuming that all uneducated men can’t hold a stimulating conversation, have no interest in the world, have no ambition, don’t know how to write, don’t know much about etiquette, and are generally living differently.

          I don’t judge your choices, but I have to say you’re cutting out a few men by limiting your options to those with a college degree. While, generally, you will tend to see more of these qualities in uneducated men, there are men out there who never went to college who are intellectually curious.

          My brother in law is, yes, and anecdotal example, but had any woman turned him down for his lack of education, she would have lost out. This guy is a great guy, and my sister counts her lucky stars every day. He hasn’t gone to college, but is able to hold a stimulating conversation with me like any of my peers (I am in a PhD program). He was a millionaire at one point, and has more ambition than many men who went to college.

          I have also had friends who did not go to college, who have climbed the ranks of society without a college degree. Granted, these people are not the norm, but it’s just some food for thought.

        3. Karmic Equation

          No man is perfect. No woman is perfect.

          Too many women have this unrealistic picture of what an LTR looks like.

          After the discovery period, which I would peg ends at 4-6 months, you’re not looking to discuss the cure for cancer or world politics when you see each other. Instead of finding “stimulation” in each other, you look to each other for DE-stressing. To veg out. To relax with. To do things with.

          You’re discussing where plans you might have for the weekend. Yardwork. Housework. Errands to run. How was work. How as mom & dad or kids/grandkids. Sometimes you don’t want to discuss anything at all because you’re just wiped out mentally.

          You don’t need an “educated” man to do any of the above. In fact, once IN a relationship, his education or lack thereof, is not and will not be why you have a strong or weak relationship.

          I have YET to read in this blog (or any other blog) of a man’s or woman’s “education” being touted as the reason why a relationship lasted 40 years. Or how “common interests” were why a relationship flourished. Or of a man’s curiosity with the world being the reason why a woman loved her man till his death.

          You’re living in fantasy land, which is why you’re StillSingleAt40.

          The reality is that relationships that last are “comforting” to both parties not intellectually stimulating. Join a book club for intellectual stimulation. Or participate in a blog 🙂

          Your mate should just make you feel at peace with the world. That’s it.

        4. Karmic Equation

          “Men are rarely told to adjust or lower their standards or at least I have never witnessed it for myself.”

          But men DO lower their standards. They just don’t lower their “beauty standard”. They lower their personality standard.

          How many men do you know are married to shrews? To selfish or immature women? To “psychos”? Plenty.

          They settled on “personality” and retained their beauty standard.

          Problem is beauty fades. Eventually he’ll be left with an ugly, selfish shrew, who takes him to the cleaners. Then they become MGTOW and blame women instead of their own choices.

        5. Tom10

          This all sounds very familiar; I’m getting a Groundhog Day feeling about where this comment thread is going…

        6. Joe

          I bet the men you dated went back to their friends, and upon being asked why you and they didn’t continue dating, said, “Man, all she wanted to do was talk!”

        7. DeeGee

          Karmic Equation said: “Too many women have this unrealistic picture of what an LTR looks like.” – and – “You’re living in fantasy land, which is why you’re StillSingleAt40.” – and – “But men DO lower their standards.” – and – “They compromise. They just don’t CARE about that compromise as much as we women care about ours. Because we have such a LONG LIST of must haves.

          And once again KE has nailed it and I agree completely.

      2. 10.1.2
        Tracy L.

        But men DO lower their standards. They just don’t lower their “beauty standard”. They lower their personality standard.

        Karmic Equation,

        This is exactly what I meant.  Beauty appears to be the most important standard when choosing a mate while other qualities are merely afterthoughts. I don’t  believe they compromise on personality, it just isn’t that important to most of them.

        Women do prioritize looks but we know up front that it won’t be enough to keep us happy.

        1. Karmic Equation

          Disagree, Tracy L.

          Men say “She’s crazy, but I love her.” blah blah.

          They compromise. They just don’t CARE about that compromise as much as we women care about ours. Because we have such a LONG LIST of must haves. So each time we can’t have a “must have” on our list, we feel like we’re compromising.

          When the reality is that we need to view our laundry list as “nice to haves”. But instead we view that list as necessities and then paint ourselves into a corner. We make ourselves miserable in more ways than one with our lists. Men don’t make lists like that. So they never feel like they’re compromising.

        2. Tracy L.

          They compromise. They just don’t CARE about that compromise as much as we women care about ours. Because we have such a LONG LIST of must haves. So each time we can’t have a “must have” on our list, we feel like we’re compromising.

          Karmic,

          This.  Our biggest downfall are the must haves.

    2. 10.2
      DeeGee

      Stillsingleat40 said: “yes I’ve tried dating them and no I didn’t enjoy it so I am one of those that keeps my dating profile active and goes out a lot,

      And how many times have you paid for the date or dinner?

  11. 11
    Chester

    I agree with Tracy and Karmic equation completely about porn. I do not think Tracy used shaming language, she just described the reality of porn. Maybe it is just that porn really is pretty shameful.

     

    1. 11.1
      Jordan

      Here is a question that no one dares to ask.

      If a significant number of men would rather look at porn than date “real” women, what does that say about real women?

      1. 11.1.1
        Rebecca

        Oh, I don’t know about this point.  A significant number of people would rather eat McDonald’s than real food, but that just means that McDonald’s did a great job with their market research, not that their food is actually better.  Anyway, it doesn’t change how I will live my life even if _most_ men preferred watching.  I am one of that significant number of women who would rather be single than compete to be more arousing than porn.  I can’t offer the variety of five new bodies every night, I will continue to age, and I refuse to pretend that I crave any and every sex act that a porn screenwriter can think up.  Happily for me, there are plenty of men who still like flesh and blood women.

        1. DeeGee

          Jordan said: “If a significant number of men would rather look at porn …

          and so Rebecca said: “A significant number of people would rather eat McDonald’s

          umm … because men would rather have “fat and salty” be what their food is, instead of what they are having sex with ??
          (sorry, I couldn’t resist, but I probably should have…)

        2. Ted

          Porn doesn’t make us jump through numerous hoops on the off chance that we deserve a second date despite being exactly what the woman claims to want.

          I’d love to have a wife, but the bs isn’t worth it.

          If women want to be happily married, they need to learn to stop discouraging good guys.

      2. 11.1.2
        Karl S

        I’d be more likely to draw general conclusions about a small subset of men who reject women for porn than draw general conclusions about all women who they reject.

        1. pat

          You get it, Karl. 🙂

  12. 12
    Chester

    One variable missing from this analysis, maybe it is in the book: the pool of available educated men is even smaller, when you subtract the number of men who are perfectly happy dating and marrying women with less formal education. I have no data to back this up, but I feel pretty sure men are much more open to being with women who have less formal education, than the other way around.

    1. 12.1
      Joe

      The average male CEO is happier marrying the female waitress who makes him feel good, than the average female CEO is marrying a male waiter who makes her feel good.

      1. 12.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        Agree.

        Because she thinks she “settled.”

        And he’s just plain happy that he found someone who wants to make him happy.

        Men are simple. That’s why I love ’em. lol

    2. 12.2
      Jen

      True, as a female with no higher education, I have had zero trouble having men with PHD’s, engineers, medical doctors, etc. go after me. At first, I thought that they would care about such things, but none of them did.

  13. 13
    JB

    I guess this whole conversation sums up why as a man I have to lie in my profile and just say I have a bachelor’s degree when I don’t. For years online I would be honest and put “some college” on my Match profile totally unaware back then that many women would be disqualifying me for it. Now in my 50’s it rarely comes up in conversations with any women at all except the occasional “where’d you go to school?” or “what was your major?” I’m sure many wouldn’t of even responded to me if my profile told the truth. Just as important as a “degree” for a man online is his job “title” if he chooses to elaborate on it in his profile so a woman can qualify him and his earning potential/status. Even if it’s not in his profile most women will ask in the second email, “what do you do?” If they don’t like the answer you never hear from them again. Of course on Match there’s a spot to list your income which of course just encourages men to lie knowing that they’ll be “qualified” on it.

    I haven’t read the book yet but I’m sure one more reason there’s such a disparity that’s ever growing is because many more men than women get out of high school and go into the trades. You know the millions of men that build this country and keep it going everyday.  Contractors, electricians, plumbers, carpenters, mechanics etc…… many making 80-100K. Yep, somebody’s gotta do it! “Ewwwww I would never date a guy like that” many women say like they’re all idiots. Online most of these men have little or no value unless of course they look like the firemen on a calendar. In the end they’ll be a lot of lonely women as there’s only so many 6 ft tall, college educated, handsome hunks who want to get married to go around.

    1. 13.1
      Josie

      I have actually decided to stop filtering for bachelors degrees, as I do occasionally meet a man who is successful enough and stimulating to talk to, but lacks a formal degree.  I’m an outdoorsy gal who likes fishing, is fine with hunting and hails from the south.  I’d be more than happy with a physical , hardworking man who is self-educated as long as he can hold a good conversation.

      But it does generally hold true that the men I get along with tend to be professionals.  I’m a political person by nature so a conservative man would likely take offense at my strong Democratic politics.   Where I live, in the South, trades men tend to be VERY politically conservative and would generally not get along with me.  Other areas of the U.S. that are more unionized would likely have a better selection for me.

      1. 13.1.1
        Morris

        I’m trying to figure out what unionization has to do with it. Professionals(educated white collar) aren’t typically unionized because they are in demand and don’t need it. Unless you want to date a teacher or nurse*(only two I could think of off the top of my head). What exactly does moving to a unionized place get you?

        1. Morris

          After re-reading I think I understand. You tend to like professionals(not unionized in general) but if you want to start dating blue collar men(more unionized especially if left leaning) you would be better of in a unionized place. Although I think you would just be better off in a liberal place in general.

      2. 13.1.2
        Mickyd

        Why does he need to be successful and what do you mean by successful ?

    2. 13.2
      Kate

      Women don’t want to date electricians, plumbers, or construction workers?  News to me.  Almost every woman I know would consider a man with a skilled trade to be a MAJOR catch.  Many women even fetishize men who do physical labor.  I’ve heard of “hot firefighter” calendars.  I’ve yet to come across a “hot accountant” calendar.  Is it possible that we look a a small microcosm of women, namely women who live in cities like Chicago or New York, and assume that all women ascribe to views common to this group?

      1. 13.2.1
        JB

        To Kate and Morris…….. I DO live in the suburbs of Chicago and yes there are many unions and tradesman here. Hundreds of thousands of UNION men. Some blue collar some not. I don’t consider our union teachers here blue collar that’s for sure. I’m just telling you what I’ve experienced online over the last 18 or so years as I’ve worked my way up from to not quite “white collar”. I’m careful and mindful of how I describe to women what it is I actually do for a living. Never the less, I’ve actually seen some women put right in their profile “NO ELECTRICIANS!”

        1. Donna

          Do your plumber friends go up to average-looking, educated women and ask them out? On dating websites do they write to women without photos who have interesting, educated profiles? Many men here want women to accept bascially anything, but are part of an incredibly picky gender.

  14. 14
    McLovin

    What a long winded way to say that we have raised a couple of generations of women who think they are too good for the men that are on offer.

    1. 14.1
      Karmic Equation

      Women overvalue their achievements and men overvalue their SMV.

      If each gender actually valued what was valuable to the other gender, Evan would be out of a job and you and I would have nothing to debate.

      What a boring world that would be.

      1. 14.1.1
        McLovin

        Ha,

        I was going to add that if women would come back to Earth with their expectations, Evan would be out of a job. So, I suppose it’s a matter of perspective.

         

        But I do disagree with you that it would be boring. It sounds blissful. Loyalty, family, stability….sounds awesome to me. But, those things just are not available to your average male today.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          McLovin, with great respect, those things ARE available to your average male today. Maybe you’ve been spending too much time on the relentlessly negative and anti-woman MGTOW boards, but you’re forgetting that 100 million Americans are married, pretty much the same number as there are single people. And, believe it or not, many of those married people are happy with their choice. So while you’re entitled to see the glass as half empty, you must acknowledge that it is ALSO – for many of us – half full.

        2. Adrian

          Karmic Equation
          “2/3 right, DeeGee.
          All women need to be pretty.
          All men need to be rich AND good looking.”

          You left out over 6 ft tall.
          I am curious out of 100% how would you rank, wealth, looks, height, and body shape, in regards to importance to women? I use to think at least 50% was wealth, but now I am not so sure. Maybe all 4 are 25% and women just want the whole package.

        3. Karmic Equation

          “I am curious out of 100% how would you rank, wealth, looks, height, and body shape, in regards to importance to women?”

          In order of importance:

          1) Body shape. V-shaped, where his shoulders are wider than his hips is a must for me. If his hips are wider than his shoulders, he’s totally unattractive to me. That said, I don’t mind a beer gut. Weird, I know.

          2) Looks. He has to have a face I consider good looking. Usually this means high cheekbones. Nice smile. Nice eyes. Hair optional, but preferred. lol

          3) Height. I’m a shorty (a little under 5′) — and I’ve felt uncomfortably bigger/taller than men who’re shorter than 5’5. Probably because I have a “dense” body (heavy bones, dense muscles, with average amounts of fat) and a “tall” personality. On the BMI scale, I’m “obese”, but people look at me funny when I say that, because I wear size 4 jeans and don’t look anything close to “obese”.

          4) Wealth. The last guy I dated who made more than me was when I was 27. He’s now my ex-husband of 8 years. And I make as much or more than he now. And I don’t like corporate men, so I tend towards dating tradesman/blue collar. I think they’re more “real” than corporate guys. My bff (straight male), however, is in-house counsel for a big pharma company.

          I date like a guy and date men who make me feel good around them, not a checklist. Most of my conversational needs are met by blogging and work. So I’m actually pretty quiet IRL. Love my Patriots.

          Just beware that my rankings are probably atypical of most women. So I’m not sure how useful this info is to you.

        4. Karmic Equation

          Percentage-wise, it’d be this:

          50% Body Shape

          40% Looks

          10% Height

          0% Wealth

          While wealth doesn’t make the cut, “Gainful employment” would. I wouldn’t choose to date a guy who’s unemployed when I met him. However, my ex-husband and two bfs lost their jobs after I entered committed relationships with them. I didn’t mind being the breadwinner in those relationships. My ex-husband didn’t mind, that’s for sure. He loved “early retirement” (he was in his late 30s/early 40s) when he lost his job. One boyfriend minded. One didn’t.

        5. Gabri'el

          Adrian, I know you asked Karmic, but I would say for women in my age group 18-25,

          Looks: 50%

          Height: 30%

          Wealth: 15% (type of car driven, clothing style, not actual money)

          Body: 5% (as long as he is not fat)

        6. Gabri'el

          Evan I completely agree that personality matters, Karmic and I were just responding based off the criteria Adrian set.

          My guess is that he meant perhaps initial attraction???

          Initial attraction is more aligned with the criteria he set forth, personality is more of a long-term judgement… Well that’s my guess anyway.

           

      2. 14.1.2
        DeeGee

        Karmic Equation said: “If each gender actually valued what was valuable to the other gender

        So all women need to be pretty and all men rich?  😉
        I’m only kidding.

        1. Karmic Equation

          2/3 right, DeeGee.

          All women need to be pretty.

          All men need to be rich AND good looking.

        2. Not Jerry

          All women are beautiful.
          In some way, every woman has beauty, at least to some man.

          I have known women who were plain looking, self described, but I saw their beauty.  It’s there somewhere.  It always is.

          There is someone for everyone. Absolutely.

        3. Karmic Equation

          “There is someone for everyone. Absolutely.”

          On this, we agree.

      3. 14.1.3
        Gabri'el

        Hi Karmic, everything you write gold, but tell DeeGee, to back off, I claimed you first! 🙂

        Karmic, could you give an example of how men over estimate their SMV? Do you men guys who a under 6 foot and ugly but make over 6 figures a year thinking their money is a substitute for attraction?

        Or some combination of not having all the ingredients that women want in a man, (being over 6 ft, in good shape, PH.D, making 6 figures, and looks like his face should be on the cover of a magazine), but he is trying to over compensate by flaunting what he has. Example: he is tall, but average looking,  or he is in shape and average, but makes only 30,000 a year.

        Is this kind of what you meant?

         

        1. Karmic Equation

          DeeGee, you heard Gabri’el, back off! LOL

          How are things across the pond, Gabe?

          “Karmic, could you give an example of how men over estimate their SMV?”

          The one that men don’t get is that most women rate FACES over bodies. A man with a good looking face can be flabby or even fat, as long as his face was considered “handsome” or “cute” by her. But, most times, this is NOT the case when men are evaluating women. Even if she has a GORGEOUS face, if she’s fat, well, he might try to bang her, but he’s not gonna look to have a relationship with her, right? (Unless chubby chaser, of course).

          A lot of men over 40 believe a woman in her 20s is with him because of his LOOKS. Hmmm. Perhaps a few men fall into this category. But MOST 20 yo women are dating men who are 40 because those men pay for EVERYTHING and are very easily manipulated by sex.

          Rich, ugly guys — I don’t know any of these lol. I think I hang around mostly “average” looking guys. Only one guy would I consider “ugly”. None are rich. I suspect the rich ugly guys know exactly where their SMV lies. Yes, they know their riches compensate for their lack of looks.

        2. Gabri'el

          I love it over here, I was just para-sailing in Norway last week and a friend wants to go to Ireland to bungee jump… but I don’t do that! Skydiving, yes, but bungee jumping…

          I just saw a older rich guy trying to hit on a girl who was about my age, I would guess that she was 21 and he looked about 50.  I see that a “lot”. Old guys trying to compensate their age or fat guys trying to compensate their bodies, or unattractive guys trying to compensate for their looks with money. Yet according to this book Evan is talking about and the female commenters, these guys shouldn’t have a problem getting the hot or average women their own age.

          This blog post is about guys who have money being scarce in the dating world, but that confuses me, because why are all these old well off guys single? Just yesterday on campus this old guy almost wrecked, watching a girl in a skirt walk by.

          Anyway, I don’t want to get into a older men wanting younger girls debate, I was just curious on your opinion about the scarcity of these type of men that many women are talking about, because I see them all the time, so is the book wrong or am I just seeing a very small minority? Also, they seem to think their money is everything, which is why I asked about the over valuing their SMV.

        3. Buck25

          “…they know their riches compensate for their lack of looks.”

          KE,

          Do they, really? Couldn’t prove it by me. If that were true, I don’t see how I could still be on the market after four years, yet here I sit…..

  15. 15
    Sasha

    So this book shows that women with absurd dating standards might have trouble finding a guy? So what? There’s an easy solution ladies: don’t treat a college degree like it’s some kind of dividing line between being a poverty stricken drooling idiot and being intelligent/ middle class. A degree is simply a means to an end. Nothing more. And with every passing decade, it becomes more expensive and offers less bang for your buck. Many degrees hold little value in the job market. Even if you get one that does, you still might end up working in a completely unrelated field for one reason or another. In the meantime, you’ll have to pay for overpriced textbooks, gen ed courses that teach you things you’ll never use, and courses designed to push the teachers’ socio- political agendas. If you’re able to get a comfortable, good paying job while saving the time and money that would ordinarily go to a college degree, why wouldn’t you? I went to college, but had I been wiser in my youth I wouldn’t have.

  16. 16
    Stillsingleat40

    Karmic Equation, I am not living in a fantasy land. I accept that I will probably remain single. Nothing fantasy about that. It isn’t ideal but it is better than being in a relationship with someone I am not interested in because I have zero in common with, don’t really feel able to talk to and therefore don’t enjoy being with. The fact that someone wants to be in a relationship with me isn’t really much of a basis for a relationship if I don’t like their company. I have tried it and was more unhappy than just being single. Of course no-one will say someone’s education is the reason they stayed together as that alone is never enough but there are plenty of people divorcing because they had nothing in common or their partner is unintelligent. I am not talking about a shared passion for hiking or whatever here but a more fundamental imbalance of wavelengths.

    1. 16.1
      Noemi

      You’re absolutely reasonable in wanting someone with whom you can have reasonably intelligent conversations. You can’t have someone who is oblivious to anything going on in the world. However, there is a fine line to be drawn here. You don’t want someone as “dumb as a doorknob”, but  like Karmic said, in a relationship, talk about politics and world affairs don’t generally dominate conversations between two people in a relationship. That’s what friends and professional conferences are for.

      “Of course no-one will say someone’s education is the reason they stayed together as that alone is never enough but there are plenty of people divorcing because they had nothing in common or their partner is unintelligent.”

      Why equate having an education with intelligence? 

      1. 16.1.1
        Stillsingleat40

        I agree that not all men who are not well educated are unintelligent. Actually my father is not that well educated but very intelligent. He does however have a working man mentality that has made both him and my much more academic mother a very unhappy couple for over forty years. This is definitely not a pattern I would want to repeat under any circumstances. My mother would definitely have been happier with someone more academic who shared her interests and supported her in them. My father would probably have been happier with someone less well educated prepared to join him in a life of heavy drinking and watching sport. Neither of them are bad people but they are totally incompatible and they both know it. This has resulted in affairs on one side and heartache on the other. I don’t need to spend my whole life discussing global politics or the latest exhibition. I really don’t want to spend my whole life avoiding it either. The reason I avoid uneducated men is that I do not want to end up like my mother – unhappy, lonely AND married.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          You just answered your own question. You assume that if you compromise at all, you’ll end up like your Mom and Dad.

          I promise: you won’t. You will not marry someone like your father. So please don’t assume that all men without Bachelors degrees are heavy drinkers, sports watchers, and presumably, bad communicators. The only universal thing you can say about men without degrees is that they don’t have degrees. Plenty of men without degrees read newspapers and are willing to go to the museum with you, even if their knowledge isn’t what yours is. My wife has a college degree (and is better at math and grammar and Shakespeare), but she doesn’t follow the news or know art history. So fucking what?

        2. Christine

          Well, it’s reasonable to want someone who supports your dreams and understands you.  However, I found out the hard way that a degree doesn’t always predict that!  Before meeting my boyfriend, I dated another guy who has a degree from the same university I went to (met him at an alumni event).  He was otherwise just like your father–a heavy drinker who wanted to do nothing but watch sports all day.  We were just as incompatible and miserable as your parents sound.  Our matching degrees didn’t help matters.  Breaking up with him was one of the best things I ever did.  On the flip side, please don’t assume men with bachelor’s degrees are necessarily more sophisticated or understanding than anyone else.

        3. Karl S

          Don’t forget that some highly educated men are socially awkward or even borderline autistic, with very narrow interests.

        4. Not Jerry

          Evan Marc Katz, good answer.

          If this blog had like buttons I’d have pressed it on your comment.  Exactly right.

           

        5. Karmic Equation

          StillSingle,

          Let’s put this in perspective.

          You have a degree. Sounds like you have a lot of them, actually. And it may be that you are “academically intelligent” but you are, without a doubt, UN-intelligent when it comes to relationships. Sorry. Had to say it.

          Did your degree make you more intelligent about relationships. Nope.

          Will a degree in your mate ensure that your relationship will be happy? Nope.

          And, like you, his having many degrees will not have made him relationship-intelligent. So though both of you may have degrees and both are academically intelligent, if both of you are relationship-unintelligent, you’re not going to be any happier than your mom and dad, who, btw, sound like they are relationship-unintelligent since they didn’t know or didn’t want to make each other happy.

          What I’m getting at is that there are book-smart people (like you, like me) and there are street-smart people (like most of my bfs, not my hubby, he was neither streetsmart nor booksmart. He was sports-smart) — And as long as you can appreciate each other’s area of intelligence, you don’t need to have the “exact kind” of intelligence to have interesting conversations.

          I had a boyfriend who did some “wrong side of the tracks stuff” when he was a teenager. And I knew this. He was in his 30s when I met him.

          And one day, I just happened to ask an off the wall question, Me: “How do people case houses?” (The night before we had watched a bank-heist movie).

          Him: Well, you live on a dead end street, burglars don’t like that. They want two ways to get out. You have dogs, they’ll avoid that. And you have lights on timers. That’s good. Burglars don’t like lit houses.”

          Me: So if I didn’t have timers and they have a gun, they would still avoid my house because I have dogs. But if they have a gun, they could just shoot my dogs!?

          Him: Umm, why waste a bullet on a dog? Easier to find a house without dogs to rob.

          ————

          I mean, I wasn’t trying to learn to be a criminal, but that was interesting stuff to know.

          As long as YOU have curiosity about the world and can ask HIM questions about stuff that HE’s knowledgeable about, you can have interesting conversations.

          Just sayin’

        6. Evan Marc Katz

          Beware – as your story will make someone think that you’re endorsing women lowering their standards to date criminals – which, of course, is not your point.

        7. Karmic Equation

          LMAO. Point taken, Evan.

        8. Not Jerry

          But talking shop with a former criminal bf, that sounded like it was interesting.
          When people talk, I listen carefully.  You can learn a lot that way!

        9. Karmic Equation

          He had a misspent youth. But he was never arrested, so either he was very good or very lucky or both. It didn’t matter to me.

          He was a teenager. Some teenagers throw parties that trash their parents houses…or go to parties where kids are trashing someone’s house. My guy happened to know how to case houses.

          By the time he met me, 15 years later, he had a white collar job. Well, maybe more like a grey-collar job. Not quite blue collar, not quite white collar, for printing company.

          But I had fun listening to some of his stories. Like when he dated 2 girls at the same time when he was 15. The three of them went out together all the time. He had a girl on each arm. The two girls were best friends and didn’t mind sharing him.

          His only regret? He was too naive and didn’t know he could have had a threesome with them. I laughed my head off when I heard that.

      2. 16.1.2
        Donna

        Evan, you seem a little angry. I don’t talk about politics or history all the time but I have simply found that men who at least tried to pursue an education are going to at least have interesting conversations with me. It’s funny, many of them here accuse women of wanting money or superficial things, but when we want good conversation we’re beaten up for that too. And NO you don’t need a degree with that but I do put ‘some college’ as an option and I still want some college (doesn’t have to be a BA). I’ve met men who weren’t too educated and they weren’t interested in ME or anything I was interested in. Have you considered that tradesmen, like many men, put looks first too and are less likely to care about a woman’s education?

  17. 17
    Adam

    The real problem is not a “shortage” of men, the real problem is an excess of women with unrealistic expectations and standards. When most women on dating websites are flooded with e-mails while the average guy is lucky to receive one response for every 20 emails he sends out, I don’t see any kind of shortage. Again, there are some common sense expectations and standards, for example, I can’t blame a woman for not wanting to date a man who is still living with his parents, but seriously, some of this other stuff, such as expecting a guy to look like a male model, make over 100k, be over 6 feet AND have a college degree is ridiculous. You might find a guy with one of those traits but only a tiny, tiny percentage of the male population have ALL of those traits and those that do, are being pursued by tons and tons of other women. If all of those things are on your “list” you are probably going to end up alone.

     

    It is politically incorrect to say this, but if women consider practically 80% of the men in the world unattractive for one reason or another, it is inevitable that a large number of women will end up single.

    1. 17.1
      Tracy L.

      I totally agree. However, men need to stop throwing out the whole “you are going to end up alone/single” thing. It should be quite obvious by now that women in this day and age have it where they don’t care if they do end up alone otherwise their standards wouldn’t have become so high.  Therefore, the “you’re going to be all alone forever if you don’t lower your standards” boogeyman is a bit passé.

      I sometimes get the impression that men are projecting their own fears of ending up alone.

      1. 17.1.1
        McLovin

        Perhaps projection is part of the puzzle, Tracy. But look at what you said above.

         

        Women don’t really care. Men will always want women more than women want men. You would rather remain alone than have to take one single item off of your “must-have” list.

         

        Why risk so much on a female who can take it or leave it?

        1. Adam

          Exactly McLovin,

           

          When it comes to a serious relationship, I’m not looking for some woman who is “settling” for me. I am not interested in a committed relationship with a woman who has a “take it or leave it” attitude and can walk out at any time. My point of view is if I am going to give my all and really devote myself to a woman, I am expecting that she do the same thing.  I would rather be single than be in a long term, committed relationship with someone who is not really into me. What a waste of time and resources.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          And yet you and McLovin have given absolutely NO indication that you’d be willing to “give it all” because you’re so paranoid and mistrustful of the opposite sex.

          So which is it? Do you want to “go your own way”? Then go.

          Do you want to receive love from a great woman? Then be a great man. Be authentic, vulnerable, and both emotionally and financially generous to your partner.

          You don’t get an amazing woman by going your own way, acting alpha, keeping score, being selfish, denigrating the opposite sex, overvaluing youth and beauty, and so on. All you have is your self-righteous anger. Sounds just like the feminists you decry. Look in the mirror. You’re a bundle of contradictions.

          Again, if you want love, be loving and trusting. Same as you’d tell a woman. If you want to go your own way, don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out. Women will find another man who is up to the task.

        3. DeeGee

          Evan said “And yet you …

          +1 Evan.  Well said.

      2. 17.1.2
        DeeGee

        Tracy L. said: “It should be quite obvious by now that women in this day and age have it where they don’t care if they do end up alone otherwise their standards wouldn’t have become so high.

        I know a good number of single women in their 40’s and 50’s (I’m 53), and every one of them that I have talked to has told me that they dislike being alone immensely.  Yet they refuse to do anything to rectify their situation, especially if it means choosing a man who is less than their fantasy ideal.

        All that modern equality for education and jobs has done is given women the means to have unrealistically high standards for men, and still be able to support themselves while they spend every evening alone and most likely miserable.  If they didn’t have well paying jobs, then they would be forced to lower their standards to something reasonable.

        Meanwhile, men, since the beginning of time have always chosen women who earn considerably less, may have a lower education, etc.
        It is all to do with men have no issue marrying down, but women pretty much never will.

        1. Tracy L.

          Yes, men have always chosen women who earn less and had less education than they had.  Let’s be real and honest here, we both know why that is…the male ego. 

           

        2. Josie

          DeeGee, I’m woman who is attractive for her age ( told that I look younger) incredibly fit for her age, and would indeed compromise on height and income if the man is kind, reasonably articulate and shares some interests. I have been on dates with several men who are shorter over the past several months.   With my income over 100K , it is a given that many of the men I date will make less money and  I do not care as long as they are financially responsible .

           

          But should I have to compromise by dating a man to whom I am completely physically repulsed?  A man who is dangerously unhealthy and not doing anything about it (overweight guy who revealed that he was  diabetic on the date yet scarfed a huge fat and sugar laden meal).  Should I tolerate a man who lacks communication skills to the extreme that he refuses to talk on the phone and only texts like a teenager ? Or has a drinking problem  (so socially accepted for men these days)? Unfortunately these and worse are the men I have encountered on my local singles scene lately.

          You have to be a little more compassionate.   The truth is that it is simply skewed in men’s favor as the book shows.  My coworker is an example of how the dating process /biology works to men’s benefit.   He waited until 40 to marry a great and lucky woman ten years younger.  They started a family.  None of the issues or time pressure we face.  He is a decent looking guy not a Clooney,  and makes an OK living but is more of a beta who is more focused on his family than making a mint.

        3. Chance

          @Tracy L. – I’ve known far more women who won’t accept a man who makes less than men who are uncomfortable with a woman who makes more.  Plus, any insecurity a man does feel towards a woman who makes more is largely due to his understanding of how most women feel about men who make less.

        4. Karmic Equation

          I don’t know, Tracy L.

          I do think women who make less than a man is less demanding.

          Ok. Let’s say the wife wants to redecorate the house. He’s the breadwinner. She’ll consult him for input and perhaps defer to him on most things if he has an opinion.

          Let’s say the wife makes MORE than her husband, then INSTEAD of consulting him about his thoughts about redecorating, she’ll just go and get it done to HER specs, without his input, because, hey it’s HER money, after all. And she sees nothing wrong with that. Except the result is that HIS opinions are marginalized and he is emasculated as a result. But she sees this as his “ego” whereas it’s really just basic respect that she failed to give him. And this kind of disrespect doesn’t get reserved for just home decorating. It’s probably child-rearing. It’s probably which babysitters/schools etc the child goes to.

          Women who make more money are used to doing whatever they want with “her money”. Whereas women who’s husbands make more money, must of necessity, consult husband to spend money on big-ticket items.

          So yeah, you could say it’s because of the “male ego” but I say women who make more money than her guy tramples his ego all the time whereas a woman who makes less money works on consensus to get what she works…which ultimately is better for relationships.

          Also, if the “male ego” is why men CHOOSE to “marry down” — then the opposite side of the same coin is the “female ego” that makes her REFUSE to marry down.

          I actually think women’s egos are BIGGER and MORE FRAGILE than men’s, but no woman ever admits that, except moi.

          I subjugate my ego to competitive activities such as volleyball and shooting pool. A lot of women, who are not athletically inclined, have no place to put their egos except into relationships or into competition with other women. I think that’s one of the reasons why so many “smart, strong, successful” women have a tough time finding love.

          She doesn’t have a good place to let her ego run wild. So she does it in relationships, to her own detriment.

        5. DeeGee

          Tracy L. said “we both know why that is…the male ego.

          Gimme a break.  :-/

          I am well educated, I have a very high IQ, and I am more attracted to women who are intelligent and have a wide variety of interests.  I get along great with many professional women.  I have always preferred an equal, but unfortunately most women don’t.
          Perhaps it is simply because I have less ego.

        6. DeeGee

          Karmic Equation said: “I don’t know …”

          Another great post.
          Where can I find a woman like you.  🙂

        7. Karmic Equation

          Not in oil country, that’s for sure, DeeGee.

          Although I can sing “Coal Miner’s Daughter” like nobody’s business. Southern twang and all 😉

          Yeah, I know. Coal and Oil country are different countries. But I’m bad with geography. lol

        8. DeeGee

          Josie said: “But should I have to compromise by dating a man to whom I am completely physically repulsed?

          Of course not.  Every example you gave was quite extreme though.  I don’t like smokers, casual drinking is ok, I don’t care for very overweight (but I like curvy) or very skinny (but fit is ok), I don’t care for massive breasts (yes, and I am a man, gimme a B), I want someone intelligent but don’t care about education level (you can only have sex for so long before you need to talk), I prefer girl-next-door over super-model, etc.

          I think I’m only a 5 in looks, and try to aim my choices in women to around that level.
          I am 5’8″, I get a lot of refusals simply because I’m not 6′ tall.
          I have red hair, and (yes) most women don’t like red head men (google some of the history of red heads).  I look a lot like David Caruso.
          I am fit with only 10% BF and work out daily.
          I am intelligent (college and some Univ.) and have a wide variety of interests.
          The big catch is that I currently only make $60k per year, which is why almost all women turn me down for dates.
          I have yet to meet a woman who’s dating requirement doesn’t include “he has to make at least twice what I do, and/or preferably $100k+”.
          My income should be doubling next year, and I have had some women show interest after they found that out, which to me is an instant deal-breaking “no thank you, not interested” on my part, which is difficult because I prefer not to be alone but I won’t date someone for whom money is their #1 requirement.

        9. Alexis

          Men value youth and physical beauty in women more than the woman’s earning power/education so you’re making an unfair comparison. You should wonder how many men have settled for a women whom they find physically less attractive than they had in mind….

      3. 17.1.3
        Tracy L.

        Gimme a break.  :-/

        I am well educated, I have a very high IQ, and I am more attracted to women who are intelligent and have a wide variety of interests.  I get along great with many professional women.  I have always preferred an equal, but unfortunately most women don’t.
        Perhaps it is simply because I have less ego.

        You’re not the rule…okay.

      4. 17.1.4
        Prospect

        Sounds like the women want soulmates and the men want wives.

    2. 17.2
      pat

      All females, since the dawn of time (and even across primate species) have found the top 20% of males the most attractive, but we still “settle” (if you want to call it that) and date and marry “regular guys” too.  It’s ridiculous to think that this attraction means that most women will end up single.  The majority of heterosexual men are attracted to top actresses and bikini models (the top 2% of the female population), but does that mean that they won’t settle for a decent, cute, cool, “regular” woman in real life?  Attraction doesn’t dictate reality.

      I’m really tired of this stereotype that all young women (or women in general today) are way too picky.  Like Evan stated elsewhere, 100 million Americans are married.  If a woman is “too picky” move on to the next potential lady, until you find one that works out.  Just like us marriage-minded women wade through players and cads to find decent, caring guys.

       

      1. 17.2.1
        DeeGee

        pat , true, but as I’ve said numerous times, the main differences are: that men do not have the long list of requirements that women do; and men are willing and usually marry down, women won’t.

        Of those 100 million Americans who are married, the women are considerably more likely to be the ones to apply for divorce.

      2. 17.2.2
        Karmic Equation

        DeeGee,

        I think there are stats that MEN cheat more in marriages than women.

        HIS cheating causes the marriage to fail, so while “technically” the woman files for divorce, he was initiated the demise of the marriage before she initiated the divorce.

        So one needs to throw that stat out the window because it does NOT show WHY the woman initiates divorce, which is VERY pertinent to the divorce stat.

        1. Chance

          When it comes to stats on cheating, do they only look at active marriages and poll who has cheated within the marriage?  I only ask because, when women cheat, they seem to leave their husbands more often for the new men, and divorce them.  I’ve always wondered if those situations were captured in the stats.

        2. Karmic Equation

          Call me dense, Chance. What is your point? Not sure what you’re driving at on this one.

          Are you’re saying that women initiate divorces both when the men cheat and also when the women cheat?

          If so, then the stat is skewed multiply, so this “women initiate more divorces” stat should just be completely ignored, especially when MEN pull it out to make a point, which I always fail to understand since this stat is misleading is so many ways.

        3. DeeGee

          Karmic Equation said: “So one needs to throw that stat out the window because it does NOT show WHY the woman initiates divorce, which is VERY pertinent to the divorce stat.

          Is not also the reason why the man cheated just as pertinent.
          I’m not suggesting that cheating is ok, just that if we are going to examine the stats, then why he cheated is also just as important.  Sure, leaving is always better than cheating.
          Did she get into the marriage on false pretenses, did she pack on the weight and stop taking care of herself, did she become frigid for whatever reason, etc.
          Throw that into the stats as well and I’ll totally agree with you.  🙂

        4. Karmic Equation

          Except for his wife’s new-found frigidity, there is no reason for cheating before leaving. Esther Perel listed in her book a few other reasons men cheat, which I can kind of buy, but generally, if he is not getting his needs met, the honorable thing to do is get divorced not cheat.

          So unless MOST men would say they cheated because their wives suddenly decided to deny him sex, then why he cheated is irrelevant to our debate.

        5. Chance

          @KE, what I was trying to get at is that do these studies ask people currently married whether they have cheated on their current spouse?  I get the impression this is the case in at least some of these studies that I’ve read.  Problem is – anecdotally speaking – that all the women I’ve known to cheat left their SO for the new man.  Therefore, these types of situations would never be captured in those studies since they are no longer currently married and not subject to the study.  Men, OTOH, are more likely to cheat without leaving their SO.  

           

          At any rate, I believe the main reason women file more than men is due to the assumption of receiving sole or primary custody.  I read an article once that cited a study where the divorce initiation split was around 50/50 in states where joint custody is more common.  It’s driving me crazy that I cannot find it on google because I’d like to share it.  I’ll post it if I can ever locate it.  In the meantime, we’ll have to remind ourselves of those instances where the man is counting down the days until their youngest child goes off to college so they are finally free to divorce their wives without fear of their children being confiscated.

        6. Karmic Equation

          Chance,

          I know of at least one couple where the man remains in an unsatisfactory marriage because he doesn’t want to lose daily access to his children. So I totally understand where you’re coming from with men not filing for divorce more often.

          There’s also the “it’s cheaper to keep her” mantra.

          I think most people in this country marry for “love” and don’t spend any time thinking about financial ramifications should divorce result. But who can blame them? It’s like getting hired for a job and then worrying about the layoff-package. Who applies for a job thinking about that?

          If both men and women picked men and women OF GOOD CHARACTER to marry and BOTH spouses behave with integrity throughout the marriage, then should divorce result, there’s probably a VERY good chance it could end amicably.

          But if men marry for looks and women for status and both overlook character, then is it really any surprise that some form of vengeance is going to be part of the divorce equation?

          Make sure you marry a person of good character as well as whatever else you’re looking for — and treat them with respect throughout your marriage — so that if you can’t make the marriage work, then at least you may be able to divorce amicably.

          If a man is really feel such a bad judge of character–or he can’t trust himself to remain faithful in an LTR–then I’d agree with you, he should never marry.

        7. Chance

          “It’s like getting hired for a job and then worrying about the layoff-package. Who applies for a job thinking about that?”

           

          C’mon, you’re better than that.  Not a good comparison at all.  A person’s life can be improved by taking a particular job, and laws aren’t in place that could make your life much worse than before you took said job in the event you were to get laid off.  With marriage, a successful man’s life cannot be improved (compared to remaining in an LTR), but laws are in place that can make a man’s life much, much worse in the event of a divorce than it would have been if he had never gotten married at all.

           

           

          “If a man is really feel such a bad judge of character–or he can’t trust himself to remain faithful in an LTR–then I’d agree with you, he should never marry.”

           

          Sure, that’s true.  However, these aren’t the only types of men who shouldn’t marry.  No one knows how things can turn out in the long run, and if there is no benefit to be gained for the risk taken, then there is no reason to marry.  A successful man can be a good judge of character, can fully trust himself to remain faithful in an LTR, and can still be better off by avoiding marriage.  I am an example of that.  In fact, many men simply get married because their women threaten to leave them if they don’t marry them.  That isn’t a reason to get married – that’s blackmail.  So, you can look at a man refusing to marry in a lot of cases as a man simply refusing to be blackmailed.

    3. 17.3
      verhrzn

      I know many, many single women and not a single one has those criteria. But we’re also not the ones getting flooded with messages.

      It’s very interesting that every time I find a guy who complains how women have unrealistic expectations, almost without exception, the women the guy is examining are, themselves, fantastic catches…. usually younger, very physically attractive, independent and successful. I am independent and decently successful, but am not young (30) not physically attractive (4-5 outta 10), and I have NEVER been flooded with messages. In fact, I messaged guys…. 98% of whom ignored me. I asked guys out. I initiated all of my relationships. And these were with guys who made less money than me, were roughly in my physical league, and were usually more socially awkward than I was. Yet every single one of these guys ended up leaving me for a far better woman.

      80% of the guys are only messaging the top 1/3 of the women on OKCupid, and then complaining that these top women have high expectations. So guys are not innocent in this game, either.

      1. 17.3.1
        DeeGee

        verhrzn said: “I know many, many single women and not a single one has those criteria.

        I encounter that pretty much all of the time when asking women out or when reading the list of wants on their online dating profiles.
        Maybe I am just being hyper-sensitive.

        and said: “every time I find a guy who complains how women have unrealistic expectations

        I can see where you may get that impression from some (most?) men.
        I have mentioned this before on here, maybe I’m different.
        I’m 53 divorced no kids, looking for a woman who is 45-55, divorced with no kids at home is fine.
        I only think I’m a 5, I usually look at OKC profiles for women who are what I would classify as 3-6.  I write short personal messages based on something I read on their profile.  Many of them don’t even message me back, even the 3’s.
        But what I find odd is that most of the women who initiate messages with me on OKC are what I would classify as 7-9’s.  They tell me they like my profile and wish I lived closer to them.
        This just confuses me.

        and said: “80% of the guys are only messaging the top 1/3 of the women on OKCupid, and then complaining that these top women have high expectations.

        I can easily believe that.  Both genders seem to gravitate towards the upper percentile.

        1. Alexis

          Those far away 7-9’s are bots.

      2. 17.3.2
        Gabri'el

        Verhrzn, that is the secret to “EVERYTHING!”

        It is like Karmic Equation was saying in a earlier post. Male or female, our ego’s demand that we be seen out in public with someone who is more attractive than we are. It’s just that while men are more tunnel vision about looks, when want looks plus…

        Men focus more on sex, so looks and body are most important, but women focus more on relationships so they need more ingredients then he is sexy with a tight butt.

        Your mate is seen as a reflection of your worth. It is not the PC thing to say but it is the truth.

        Having a tall, sexy looking man that is dressed like he is successful, on a woman’s arms, says,” she is worth something to get a guy with lots of options to choose her over other women”.

        V.S

        The woman with the guy who works at Costo, is average height, is not obese but is definitely overweight, and he dresses like he is going to work in his back yard on her arm.

        Both are great caring boyfriends, but which one do you think people will give the woman more accolades for. Which is more of a ego boost?

        A good friend of mine who is in the marines told me the military has a saying, “Perception is reality”.

        Women want love, and a lasting relationship, but they also want a reflection of how great of a catch they are. Someone who other women look at and wish they had… Thought admitting this would ruin her self-image in her mind as well as her image in the minds of others. In her mind she is a good selfless person, who is above such superficial things as looks, and caring what others think.

    4. 17.4
      Donna

      Most women do NOT want to end up alone. They are just so disgusted by some of the cruel, pushy, and lazy men (lazy meaning, not even showering) that they would rather be alone taking care of themselves than be with someone who’s mean, mysogynistic, only cares about sex, can’t hold a conversation etc. Some of us have pretty basic needs and still we can’t find someone we want to be with. There has to be some basic chemistry to be in a relationship with someone every day. I think some of you guys even want to deny us THAT!

      1. 17.4.1
        Ted

        And what message does it send to the good guys out there if we’re still passed on in light of that? I do none of those things and go out of my way to treat them well and they still refuse a second date even after whining about how guys treat them.

        Why should any guy put up with that nonsense?

        1. ANiceWoman

          Ted, here is the point. I’m a nice girl. I treat guys nicely. I have often been refused by a second date. The difference between you and me is, I don’t think I deserve for them to fall in love or be attracted to me JUST because I’m nice. Different personalities respond to different things but if you aren’t nice, you end up with no one in the long run. Personality matters, a million unmentionable things. There are a LOT of guys I’ve had crushes on or really liked and they only liked me as a friend – and I accepted that that was their right and that it wasn’t because I was nice, but because of lots of things. I went to the gym, worked on myself, blamed no one else, and sure didn’t resort to tricks. There are lots of types of women in the world just like lots of types of men. Niceness is the biggest thing, but there have to be other things that draw people together. Men act like they are entitled to any woman’s love and attraction because they act the way they SHOULD. Work on being nice, genuinely nice, not manipulative, and let your personality come out too. Don’t feel entitled to a woman’s love and life because you open a door.

        2. Ted

          Anicewoman, not sure why it won’t let me respond directly.

          This is feminist BS to avoid the issue. I don’t expect all of my first dates to result in second dates, but, I shouldn’t have to go out on a hundred or more dates to get to a second date. That’s insane.

          I’m almost exactly the man women claim to be looking for, but they’re only interested when they think they can’t have me or they see another woman eyeing me.

          I’m sorry, but that’s all sorts of effed up. Just by random chance alone, I should have been able to get a date. I go out of my way to only approach women that say they want men like me and there’s no shortage.

          This isn’t entitlement. If women truly value good guys, I should have already met at least one open minded enough to give it 2 dates.

          I’ve literally had more marriage proposals than second dates.

        3. ANiceWoman

          Ted, your response is incredibly weird. I made 2 points. 1, people are attracted to lots of things, and you can’t assume they’ll fall in love with you based on only one criteria, and 2, kindness is supposed to be the way people treat each other. it’s laughable that somehow you say that’s “feminist bs.” I said nothing about equality or equal rights, but perhaps you don’t like being called out on your hypocrisy and feel the need to label anything “feminism” that you disagree with. Look at your own words “I’m not entitled…but based on my mathematical criteria, I’ve dated this many women and should have gotten a second date.” No, actually, it’s possible to date a thousand people and not connect in a way that makes them want to merge their body with yours, or it’s possible to have good luck or a great personality and meet someone easily. It’s not mathematically and you don’t get the right to have love and affection because of your great struggles to be nice. You haven’t at all responded to the fact that I pointed out that I’m often nice to men and they don’t fall in love with me. Um, even the notion of considering that would bother you. Have you ever fallen in love with a woman just because she was a nice person?

          A few points need to be made:

          1) Being nice should be something a person automatically wants. If your natural state is to be a jerk, and you’re acting nice to get something out of it, then you’re probably a jerk deep inside – and women could tell that. Sorry. Maybe you need time off from dating to examine your dark heart and work on yourself or talk to a therapist so you can stop being bitter and angry. Women can tell a man who secretly hates them

          2) There are millions of different men and women in the world. If you meet 100 of them and they aren’t attracted to you, that doesn’t mean you should hate or judge all the rest or feel like the rest of them owe you somehow.

          3) If you are angry that women aren’t falling in love with you just because you’re nice, turn it around and ask yourself if you’re chasing any of these women solely based on their kindness. Maybe go to a soup kitchen and chat with the volunteers if that’s the case. Mostly I see women volunteering.

          4) Many nice guys who aren’t that good looking are happily married. They have personalities, hobbies, and are dynamic in some way. Again, work on yourself – what about yourself would attract you to you? Would you want to date yourself?

          I have a feeling that logic and reason are lost on you, just as they are on the certain type of guy who comes to sites like this and uses words like “feminism, bad!” and “alpha” and all of those things as a substitute for normal emotions and intellect. There may be something else going on with you judging from your response, so I don’t want to get sucked in. I’ve said nothing controversial but if you attack or get angry, dispute the points with reason, not buzzwords. Anyway, I think my points are clear. Have a nice day and if it takes you a year or five, please do work on yourself so you aren’t secretly angry at the women you claim to want to be with! Life isn’t necessarily fair but it’s not anyone’s “fault” so instead of being a victim, be a GENUINELY good person so you have no regrets. Those are the people women fall in love with.

        4. Tef

          Anicewoman, that’s easy for you to say, you’re not the one doing all the work and taking all the risk.

          It is feminist bs to say that I’m not entitled to anything so I’ve got no right to be angry when the women aren’t taking their end of things seriously.

          I work very hard on my end of things, I don’t think asking for a tiny bit of consideration and cooperation is unreasonable.

          I haven’t got unlimited time and money. I’m not here to entertain women that haven’t got skin in the game or to serve as a cheap ego boost. Or those who aren’t honest about what they’re looking for. That wasted time adds up and means women that are serious about finding somebody like me can’t and may never.

          Considering all the complaining by women about how there aren’t any good guys left, perhaps not mistreating us is a good place to start.

          This kind of feminist rationalization is hardly only noticed by men, I’ve seen videos by women complaining about how horrible other women are to nice guys. Obviously, if the constant rejection causes us to get mad or bitter, we weren’t really nice to begin with.

          But, whatever, I’m sure I’m just a horrible human being that deserves to die alone because god forbid a woman should pass up on the opportunity to date a jerk.

        5. Callie

          Ted – I spent years studying theatre. I found myself a top agent. I work out, I continue to train, I develop new and more marketable skills. I prepare like crazy for every single audition I go to. And you know what? I’m not entitled to a role. Doesn’t matter how much time, money, energy, passion, heart and soul I put into this career. No one owes me an acting job.

          I also write. I can spend more than a year writing a book. I can send it to people to get edits on it, I can make it utterly perfect, and yet I am not entitled to a publishing contract. No matter how hard I worked.

          Just because you work damn hard at something does not mean you are entitled to that thing. You might feel like you are, trust me, I get the feeling. But it doesn’t actually mean that you are. And honestly this attitude of yours that you ARE entitled to a woman because you have put in the effort is not the attitude of a “good guy”. The constant slamming of feminists as well? Not the attitude of a “good guy”. The general blaming women for all your problems, for your bitterness and negative outlook? Not the attitude of a “good guy”. And saying that you’d be a great guy if only you weren’t treated badly by women? Wow, that is SO the opposite of a great guy. A good guy is good regardless, he doesn’t suddenly decide to be bad because it’s all too much. To truly be good is to be good without expectation of reward. Because doing good for its own sake is the reward. And so if a good guy doesn’t get what he wants he doesn’t pout, say he’s entitled to something, place the blame on everyone else. He goes, “Damn that’s too bad. Ah well, I still did the right thing and that’s what counts most.”

          Of course, you’ve already admitted all the above about yourself (although I don’t actually believe you were being serious despite the fact that, yeah, it’s kinda true, you don’t seem that nice). It’s the biggest irony of all. You concluded your post saying that “god forbid a woman should pass up on the opportunity to date a jerk” but honestly dude, all those women who don’t date these supposed nice guys who aren’t actually that nice are actually passing up on just that opportunity. Women are doing exactly what you want them to, bypassing the jerk. Nice Guys not getting dates is actually evidence of women not choosing the jerk. You should be proud of them for being able to tell, beyond the superficial surface, that at the core the good guy ain’t really one.

          Anyway. The main point of my post is: No woman is entitled a man because she tried, no man is entitled a woman because he tried. It might suck, it might not be fair, but that’s how it works.

        6. Ted

          Callie,

          The sexist comments from you and anicewoman do a really good job of illustrating my point for me. I spend a great deal of time and energy on my end of dating. I deserve to have a similar level of thought and attention paid by the women that agree to go out with me.

          This isn’t some sort of random entitlement here, these are women that claim to want somebody like me and agree to not just message me, but to go on a date.

          If you can get over your sexism for a few minutes, you’d realize that I have a point here. Men have feelings, if you want men to treat you nicely, then you’d better be prepared to date men that treat you nicely.

          As for the feminism they’re the ones that have been the major driver behind the misandry. They’re the ones that keep accusing men of being terrible and women of being the cure for everything. They’re the ones driving the female empowerment wagon even in cases where men are the ones that are struggling.

          I don’t even know how this is controversial. Men put out a ton of effort, being taken seriously is an extremely low level of expectations. I’m not even talking about sex or making out here either.

          But, lastly, even if you ignore how selfish the concept of making the men do all the work and take all the risks; it’s a matter of self interest to not treat men badly. Why should Jame or any other man be expected to put up with that kind of rejection when your typical woman won’t?

          Perhaps, try not treating men like a resource and instead treating them like human beings and you’ll find Mr. Right. Unlike the women I’ve been dating, most men do respond to being treated well.

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          Sounds like you’ve got it all figured out, Ted. Are you just here to educate us?

        8. Henriette

          @Ted – it sounds as though you’ve experienced a lot of rejection and that this has been hurtful. I’m sorry.  Honestly.  I know well the sting of rejection and I can only imagine what it must be like for men, who have to make the first move, plan dates, pay and still get shot down.  I have a young son and already bristle at the thought of future, hypothetical women rejecting him.  LOL.

          I’ll take you at your word and believe that you’re genuinely a nice guy.  Trust me: any healthy women WILL want to date a nice man rather than a jerk (the kind of women who are drawn to jerks again and again?  They have so many issues, you wouldn’t want them), but being a nice man isn’t enough.  You’re a nice guy and have the skills/ looks to get many first dates, but then lose the women after that.  So wouldn’t it behoove you to look at how you behave on those dates and what “vibes” you give off?  For instance, have you read up on Evan’s “Nice Guy with Balls” theory?  Have you ever followed Evan’s advice and done “exit interviews?”  Some of the male posters here have made small tweaks in their dating tactics and reaped significant benefits.  I’ve no doubt that you can, too.

        9. Callie

          Thanks Ted for the advice, but since I am already dating an amazingly good, moral, kind, upstanding man, and have been for nearly 4 years, I think I’m okay.

          The rest of your post, accusing me of being sexist (the classic “I know you are but what am I” approach to debating a certain kind of man loves so much) because I say women don’t owe you anything, you decrying all feminism as evil, assuming women put literally no effort into dating and relationships (a laughable theory, totally undermined by the existence of this very site) and once again repeating that you think you are what women want (despite evidence they DON’T want you and clearly not coming across here nearly as good and nice as you claim to be), it’s old hat. I know a couple men like you, I am grateful quite frankly you are in the minority of the kind of men I know. And I suppose it does make me sad that you feel the way you do because ultimately I do actually want everyone to feel happy. However that includes potential women who might date you, and that concerns me more. Fortunately your own attitude makes it so that women stay far far away from you and that gives me some relief, that no woman will have to put up with your hateful sexist rhetoric.

          Ultimately – you’re the one who is unhappy and single, and I’m in a relationship with someone who respects me and women in general, to whom I give so much because I love him and want to, not because I want anything in return (or feel I’m owed anything in return). So . . . I mean . . . you keep doing you bro. I’ll keep doing me. And we’ll live our respective lives. I do think mine is the happier more fulfilled one.

        10. CaliforniaGirl

          Guys who think of themselves as “nice” are very rarely nice and are almost never attractive.

          What do you believe the word “nice” means? Unassuming? Always agreeable? Never says what he means, always says what’s polite? Conflict-avoidant? Passive? Meek? Timid? Shy? Unassuming? Unwilling to make waves? Always doing what other people expect? None of those things are “nice.” And, not surprisingly, they aren’t terribly attractive traits.

          So, what do you think of when you think of “nice”? What does that word mean?

  18. 18
    McLovin

    Yes, Evan, those things are available to the average male, IF he’s willing to gamble his future, his children, his retirement and all his belongings on a woman’s “feelings.”

     

    A lot of guys won’t play that hand. Count me as one of them.

     

     

    1. 18.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I “gambled” and won. Happy marriage. Amazing wife. Love. Support. Laughter. Stability. Companionship.

      You choose to be alone for the rest of your life because you don’t believe in women or trust your capacity to choose a good one.

      Not sure you should be the one giving advice to men here.

      1. 18.1.1
        McLovin

        But you don’t dispute the underlying premise.

         

        Correction. You win for now, up until the moment she decides you are to lose. She may never do that, but she can.

         

        It’s not that I mistrust women, Evan, it’s that I’ve experienced enough of a representative sample, statistically far more than the average man, to draw some conclusions.

        1. Karmic Equation

          McLovin, PUA tactics work on a certain subset of women. And those women are NOT representative of ALL women. In fact, they probably represent the WEAKEST of women, emotionally and self-esteem wise.

          If you only date women who chase you, those women are the kinds who are the least stable. You don’t give her what she wants and she either boils your bunnies or drama up like there’s no tomorrow. Of course you’d be an idiot to marry such a woman.

          So, yeah, the women YOU date aren’t the kind ANYONE should ever marry.

          Choose a sane 7-8 to date instead of the crazy 9-10s and you’d have a different POV.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          And, as always, I don’t dispute that many of your conclusions have merit. I just look at them through a more objective lens. I am, by nature, moderate. I acknowledge good arguments and call out bad ones. So if you find that as many as 90% of women adhere to your negative stereotypes, that’s fine. Look for ONE woman in the 10%. It’s EXACTLY what I tell women to do, since most guys are selfish, clueless, and emotionally deficient.

  19. 19
    Stillsingleat40

    I don’t want to open myself up to a man that does not at least have a college education. It is not only about avoiding my father but I have also not enjoyed spending time with any of the uneducated men that I have met for valid reasons already explained. If I look at my friends, both male and female, they all have college degrees without exception. I like spending time with people on a similar level as I simply get along better with them. Am I am alone in this? Honestly I have enjoyed time with my educated gay male friends more than any of those dates that I have been on as I have more in common with them so really why should I bother to keep doing something that I don’t enjoy and just feels all wrong to me? Just to have someone for the sake of it? Evan in the end you married someone with a degree, not a high school diploma so surely you can understand if I would rather not go down that road either.  As a 40 year old woman, I am not likely to have children now so there really are no compensating factors if I end up married to a man that I don’t love, that isn’t on my wavelength, and (guiltily now as I know it is politically incorrect to say so) I don’t really admire.

    1. 19.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      All assumptions. The assumption that there are NO men without college educations that you could possibly love. My Dad didn’t go to college, he owned his own business, raised us upper-middle-class, put me through Duke, and no one would mistake him for a classless, cultureless loser. Your all or nothing assumptions are killing you – and you refuse to budge on them. It’s as silly as a man saying “I will date only blondes” or “I will date 39 year old women but not 40 year old women”. Instead of judging men for their lack of intelligence, how about you just, like, TALK with them. If they are not to your liking, that’s fair. But stereotyping all people is a big mistake. I’m as snobby as they come and I remember meeting a couple of women without formal educations who blew me away with their intelligence.

      1. 19.1.1
        Jordan

        It is a status thing, Evan.

        If a woman with a degree is dating someone without a degree, then she may realize that her sexual market value is lower than what she thinks it is.

        So instead of living in reality, she would rather live in fantasy land with no one rather than dealing with the reality of her situation by being with someone who doesn’t satisfy all the “paper” requirements.

         

        This is also why women don’t approach men by the way.  The fragile female ego cannot handle a firm rejection.  That’s why instead they prefer the indirect approaches so that they can tell themselves and their friends a bunch of BS such as “the man was scared of a self independent woman”, and other rationalizations.

        1. The Realist

          You have a point, but I don’t think this is an issue related to status.

          From her messages though, I get the impression that she simply doesn’t find, in her experience, “uneducated” men to be relatable or engaging to spend time with. They don’t inspire her, don’t stimulate her, etc.

          I would assert that she has simply met the wrong men. It is absurd to believe all men without a college degree are dolts. Additionally, there are probably plenty of men with degrees that would bore this one.

          There will be no convincing her that her position is misguided. We should wish her well in her pursuit of the degreed men she likes and hope that they value her and her presence in their life.

        2. Prospect

          “The fragile female ego cannot handle a firm rejection”

          That is the pot calling the kettle black.

      2. 19.1.2
        Stillsingleat40

        Fair point

      3. 19.1.3
        Stillsingleat40

        Fair point Evan. Somehow this accidentally ended up against Jordan’s comment

        1. Stillsingleat40

          Karmic, I am not unintelligent when it comes to relationships nor am I unintelligent generally. I know there are different types of intelligence. It just so happens that the street smart men you are attracted to do nothing for me at all. I have nothing against men being street smart but frankly the types of men you have described are the very men I want to avoid! I think perhaps that you and I are just very different women and the sort of man you may enjoy spending time with is the sort of man I would not. Whatever floats your boat.

        2. Karmic Equation

          Let me tell you about my “criminal” ex

          After we had been dating for about 5 months, I had to go away for 10 days on business. When I came home, he had “Welcome Back” balloons in a corner of my living room. And my favorite entrees from my favorite Chinese restaurant on the dining room table.

          Fast forward 5 years. My mom (who was 60 or so at the time) decided to buy a new car. Mind you, her old car was working fine. Still looked new. Rarely in the shop. As “first daughter” and very responsible, I thought she shouldn’t have “wasted” her retirement money on a new car. She should have saved it to go on cruises, vacations, whatever, imo.

          She was very excited about her new car and drove it over to my house to show it off. And when she got there, the first words out of my mouth were, “Mom, why did you buy a new car?”, with plenty of disapproval in my voice. She was crestfallen.

          My “criminal” bf noticed this. Glared at me. Then with a big smile, enthusiastically says to my mom, “Your car is beautiful! Tell me all about it!!”

          I loved him more at that moment than ever before. And by his actions, he showed me where I was lacking in empathy for my mom. I learned I still had room to grow…from this man YOU wouldn’t associate with.

          Bbtw, he had never been arrested, so he might have simply hung around criminal elements. (He did know Whitey Bulger, but he was a ‘tween when they met). Or he actually could have done criminal things but was never caught. Reality was probably in the middle. But he was a teenager when all that happened. I met him when he was 33.

          I look for men with good hearts. And if they made mistakes in their past, I’m not going to hold their past against them, as long as I believed they have reformed.

        3. Not Jerry

          Karmic, a great story. Bravo.

        4. Stillsingleat40

          Karmic, we are all very different. The fact that I don’t want to date someone who may (potentially) have a criminal or generally shady moral background doesn’t make me emotionally unintelligent – it just makes me different from you. If I were being mean and using common sense I would say that if you date someone with a shady past you are very likely asking for some kind of trouble as we all know that the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour and as a fairly traditional law abiding person and a very well behaved teenager myself I would have a serious issue with dating someone with a shady past with whom I would share nothing in common. However, if they make you feel good if it makes you happy, fair enough. I take issue with being called “relationship “unintelligent” over it though as, unlike you, I don’t feel good around those men and am therefore right to avoid them. I guess I only really feel good around well mannered gentlemen with traditional values who make me feel safe.

      4. 19.1.4
        Donna

        Evan, things were different in your dad’s time. Today it’s pretty easy to go to some kind of college, even community college. Also, plenty of women do marry non college educated men. No one says they are ‘drooling idiots.’ You are just trying to poke holes in the book to have something to say about it.

    2. 19.2
      Morgan Hill

      I think most Americans are generally stupid and ignorant, especially the ones in the red states, but I don’t understand your fixation on using a college degree or lack thereof as an absolute gauge on intelligence and knowledge. Many young people these days go to college for the sake of going to college. They end up with some useless degree and a pile of student loan debts. If someone wants to destroy his or her life, just go to a TTT law school.

      It is not to say one should not go to college, but your black-and-white mindset is baffling.

       

      1. 19.2.1
        The Realist

        Well, talk about an arrogant and condescending view of Americans! Most Americans are generally stupid and ignorant? Is this because they don’t share your views of the world? Because they aren’t familiar or aware of global politics, geography, languages, cultural affairs? Please. I’ve lived in Europe and Asia and I can assure you that people there are plenty educated but know as much (or should I say little) about America as Americans know about them.

      2. 19.2.2
        Morris

        It must irritate elitist of non-American and especially European decent to no end when they look at the world and see just how much USA has done. Technology? Check. Medical advancement? Check. Music/Film not a century old? Check. Farming? Check. Energy? Check. End World Wars? Check. What is the default language of business? Check. Number of Billionaires? Check. And the list goes on and on…

         

        Sure there are plenty of bad things. But the sheer amount of awesomeness that the USA has produced pales in comparison.

         

        Ok. Probably went overboard but I can’t stand elitists.

        1. Stillsingleat40

          I think your comment does Europeans a huge disservice on mutiple levels on which it is pointless to engage. It is highly unlikely a sane Western European would have written anything as ridiculous as Morgan has in any event. We have our own version of the manosphere too which goes along the lines of Irish woman are drunk sluts, find someone from Thailand, British women are fat sluts, find someone from Thailand, Frnch women are difficult sluts, find someone from Thailand….the whole thing is ridiculous.

        2. Morgan Hill

          Sorry for the butthurt. Just so that you know – I am an American (living in coastal California).

          If you’d excuse me, I’d like to go back to watching Fox News. I am with my red states friends that Donald Trump is going to “Make America Great Again!”.

          We are Americans!! We are exceptional!! Rah rah rah …..

    3. 19.3
      jon

      Stillsingleat40, it seems you are more interested in having a gay male best friend, instead of a male lover or rich husband.  Some women marry for money (rich guys), some marry for physical attraction (boy toys).  If you just want a smart man without needing sex, then you can date older divorced men who are 50 (like clooney).  They are often wise, experienced, knowledgeable.

      1. 19.3.1
        Stillsingleat40

        This isn’t the case. I was just illustrating the point that I would rather spend time with friends than on unenjoyable dates. Who wouldn’t?

        1. Not Jerry

          You’re saying you’s rather be alone, that wish you were alone?  OK!  No problem with that.

          Everyone get’s to choose whom they want to spend time with. If you find someone you really like, you’ll *want* to spend time with them. You will make the time. You may have to give a few things up, but it’ll be well worth it.  Right?

    4. 19.4
      Theo

      “If I look at my friends, both male and female, they all have college degrees without exception.” Have you ever dated any of your male friends?

    5. 19.5
      mgm531

      I would argue the point that education = intelligence is a lot more nuanced than you may think.  Sometimes education and the resulting degree is a matter of timing and/or lack of opportunity.  Three cases to illustrate my point:

      1) A former neighbor of mine owns 3 dry cleaning businesses.  Very successful and does very well for himself financially.  He’s married with 3 kids.  Wife is college educated and teaches elementary kids.  I once had a conversation with him and casually asked how he got into the dry cleaning business.  It was his father’s business, he told me.  When he was younger he was 3 years into getting a degree and was making plans to continue onto law school when his father became gravely ill.  He left school help out his father in the business and when his father died he was far too busy running the business to go back to school.  So he decided to forgo his dream of law to concentrate on running and building the business his father had worked hard to create.  Trust me when I say this this person is NOT an uneducated simpleton.

      2)  I work as an overlay Sales Engineer in the technology industry.  I once worked with a sales professional that was the hardest working, most sales savvy and dedicated to the customer professional I’ve ever known.  He has taken occasional business courses over the years, but never has completed his 4 year degree.  Nonetheless he is one of the most successful sales persons that I have ever known both from a financial and career aspect.

      3) I have a former colleague of mine that albeit is quite a bit younger than me he can run circles around me in insight and knowledge.  He does things and thinks in ways that have me wondering how the HELL he does that?  We both started out doing the same thing many years ago, but he has taken his career to another level that I could never dream of.  He started going to college, but after a couple of years he got bored and restless and decided to go do something else.  He’s brash, somewhat arrogant (by his own admission) but can back up his attitude with his intelligence.  Trust me when I say it he is not lacking for dates.

      Three cases that illustrate that yes, education can be a good indicator for intelligence, but it is not THE indicator.  Getting a degree is not easy and takes a lot of time, money and dedication.  Sometimes people with the best intentions of getting an education don’t, because life sometimes gets in the way.  So don’t be so quick to judge a person just because they don’t have a BA, MS (or MBA) or Phd added to their title.

      1. 19.5.1
        Joe

        Totally agree.  One of my best friends is a guy I knew in college, but never got his degree due to mental health issues.  Probably one of the smartest and most broadly-educated people I know.

    6. 19.6
      Mickyd

      Why not just become a lesbian and have done with it ?

    7. 19.7
      Alexis

      I agree with you. I’m almost done with my PhD in chemistry. The vast majority of my social circle have at least a Bachelor’s degree and I enjoy being around them. There are for sure intelligent people with no degree but the chances of finding someone with a similar intellect are going to be smaller amongst men aged 28-40 without University education than the same demographic with at least a Bachelor’s. There are so many men on dating sites that one has to use certain criteria to narrow the search. I look for single men aged 28-40 who have at least an undergrad degree, no kids and live within 250 km radius. If I’d meet someone in real life and we get on really well, not having a degree doesn’t have to matter but he has to be employed. I have met men with only an undergrad and with some, I got bored, but of course these have just been a few men and this lack of interest likely resulted from different interests/personality; most had a Master’s or were working on a PhD or already graduated from their Doctorate program.

  20. 20
    Rebecca

    One of the things that fascinates me about this blog is the feeling of visiting another culture.  It is only online that I encounter bitter generalizations about the entire opposite gender.  I was surprised that someone wrote a whole book assuming women won’t date men with less formal education until I read the comments.  Even without the education filter, the simple truth of women outliving men is that the demographics are more and more against women the older we get, so I’ll never be the one to counsel a friend that there’s a lid for every pot, nor do I tell all my students that they can be president if they set their mind to it.  But I only need one perfect-for-me man, and I’m at peace with the fact that there is competition for him.  Tomorrow I travel to that loveless desert that is New York; I will visit a man who offers me stimulating debate, comfortable togetherness, absolute trust, and electrifying sex; and I will be reminded that I am the luckiest woman alive.

    1. 20.1
      DeeGee

      Rebecca said: “the simple truth of women outliving men is that the demographics are more and more against women the older we get

      I am 53 and I have been on OK Cupid for a while, searching for women in my age group (45-55).  What have I found?  That with women, their age makes absolutely no difference as to how “picky” they are about who they will date.  They are just as bad if not worse than when they were younger.  Read some of their profiles, they see themselves as queens, and only want the top 5% of men to contact them.

      So if there is any “increasing demographic against women as they get older”, it is being imposed on them by no one but themselves.

      1. 20.1.1
        McLovin

        As Tracy noted above, women can easily take it or leave it, and their standards are their standards. There’s no changing them.

         

        Personally, I can’t understand why anyone would waste the time trying to relate to such fickle creatures.

         

        I spent way too much of my youthful time and energy trying to do just that. Now I take what I want without remorse.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          “Now I take what I want without remorse.”

          You sound like a great guy. Really, who advertises that his M.O. is to act like an asshole to the opposite sex? Finally, what exactly do you get out of this exchange on my blog? If “all” women are such “fickle creatures” I would think there’d be little point in engaging in fruitless dialogue with them. Put it this way: as an atheist, I wouldn’t spend much time on Christian message boards, just to fuck with them.

        2. DeeGee

          McLovin: dude, I gotta go with Evan on this.
          Sure, I sometimes argue with the women here, and sometimes I may be wrong, but I’m at least trying to find common ground and learn something from them, and to see if I need any attitude adjustments.
          You just read as really bitter.  Sorry.

      2. 20.1.2
        jon

        If you are a 50 year old guy, then you will absolutely have better luck dating the 35 year old women who are desperate for marriage to nice guys.  A lot of women won’t admit it, but they secretly want that intelligent older rich man (clooney) to commit to them when the guys their age won’t do so.  You can even date 25 year old waitresses who wants a guy to buy her nice things.

        1. DeeGee

          jon said: “but they secretly want …”

          I didn’t think it was that much of a secret.  🙂

        2. Fiona

          I’m pretty sure most women are open about wanting to marry George Clooney.

  21. 21
    Sasha

    Maybe I’m just an odd duck here. My grandfather was born into a wealthy “old money” family and went to Harvard because that’s what everyone in his family did. He fought in WW2, and afterwards became a large animal veterinarian in a farming community. He says that if he had to do it all over again, he wouldn’t have gone to Harvard. My mother never got any formal degree and works as a landscaper, but is a better writer and knows more about literature then almost anyone I’ve met. My father went to engineering school, never used what he was taught, and eventually taught himself an obscure trade which makes him a decent living.

    I went to college and got a film degree, and I learned three things from that experience: 1) if you want to work in the film industry, you should absolutely NOT go to school for it, 2) in many ways, college is a scam, and 3) you will grow far more as a person from just about anything you do (the jobs you hold, the internships you have, or the places you travel) then you ever will from going to college. If I ever have kids, I’m going to tell them not to go to college unless there’s a specific job they want that requires it.

    Yet, apparently if you fail to make the mistake of going to college, women think that disqualifies you from dating them. That’s so dumb i can’t even wrap my mind around it. Any woman who gives me points because I have a college degree is essential rewarding me for being a moron in my youth.

    1. 21.1
      Alexis

      It’s because you went to film school. Going to uni to study STEMM is absolutely not a waste of time. For careers in these fields you need formal education whereas this isn’t the case for artistic pursuits (I spent a year in art school before going to uni to do STEM).

  22. 22
    A.D.

     

    I married a less educated man 🙂 I have a Master’s degree, he is a college dropout. He is one of the most intelligent men I’ve ever met though.

  23. 23
    LEH

    Or women could start sharing men.  2 women for every man.  The numbers don’t look like there are enough quality men to go around.

    1. 23.1
      jon

      There is growing acceptance of polygamy in Utah, so I think more women will become accepting of the polygamous lifestyle from a financial standpoint.  But even today, there are plenty of divorced dads with numerous baby mamas, so its already happening.  Divorced dads are having several wives even if he is just legally married to one wife at a time.

  24. 24
    BarbiJo

    I know this mostly applies to the earlier comments, but in defense of school teachers, as it came across to me that some of the opinions were that teachers did not earn a good living or enough to properly support a family, and therefore are overlooked or not considered the most desirable partners education-wise in the dating market (at the bottom rung), so I need to set the record straight. I AM a teacher, have been teaching elementary school for 18 years, and I can tell you:

    1. All public school teachers MUST have a BA as well as a teaching credential (an additional 2 years of study to achieve this license), and the vast majority of teachers where I live (So CA) have MA’s, including me. So educators as a whole are highly educated. We are also a group that you are unlikely to find people that cannot write normally well-thought out educated emails and texts – I DETEST text speak!

    2. Most educators DO earn a good living, and are near the top of the income scale – I make literally right under 6 figures. I am a single parent with 3 kids, receive no child support, and still own my own home (bought it brand new 14 years ago in a nice area, 2,600 sq. ft.), can afford a decent car, pay all of my bills, and still have money to take my kids on vacations and buy what we need. Why am I sharing this? To prove that teachers CAN afford a decent standard of living, so those that overlook this population because they do not earn $200,000 or own ocean front mansion-sized property are missing out and apparently gold diggers!

    3. Most educators would make great partners as they like kids and understand kids, are patient, caring, kind, nurturing, organized, flexible, etc. and many other great qualities.

    4. We get a lot time off, and have a good schedule, which does help with child rearing options.

    5. Our retirement accounts and health benefits rock!

    My point is to please not discount teachers when looking for an educated partner, male or female.

     

  25. 25
    Chrissy

    I am Australian and can honestly say that university  (what we call colleges) education has never been a qualifier in any of my or the women I know’s relationships.

    Neither is earnings. I have used several online dating sites and indeed met my husband on one (at the age of 40). I can’t recall ever seeing an income bracket on there and certainly wouldn’t have paid any attention if there was.  I am an intelligent woman and have always earned a good income but all I asked of my men was that they be employed.

    Perhaps this is a cultural thing.  I love reading this blog but I am often amazed at the differences in “dating” between our two nations. We are quite a casual laidback society here. We don’t even refer to a couple as “dating” and there seems to be less rigidity in mate requirements. Maybe because religion plays less of a part in our country? Not sure but it is certainly fascinating. To me at least 🙂

    1. 25.1
      JB

      Well Chrissy I can attest that American women on Match DO look and qualify at education and income. When I changed my profile from “some college” to Bachelor’s degree and that “raise” I got at work from 75K a year to 100K a year …..wink wink nudge nudge as well as putting down that I’m a “manager” my response rate nearly tripled including responses from the same women who had previously ignored me. Funny what a little “raise” and a job “promotion” can do to spark the ladies interest…lol

      If you met your man on a site with no income bracket that’s great but many American women go on Match specifically because they know they can have a search criteria of men who make or “say” they make an acceptable yearly salary to them whatever that may be. I’m glad all you ask of a man is that he is employed. It’s not that way for many women all over the world not just here in the states.

    2. 25.2
      jon

      Yeah, I think Americans have a sense of elitism along with puritan values and hollywood fantasy, that makes people seek out perfect mates, instead of realistic mates.  Religions do play a role in casual sex and mate selection.  In America, it seems like catholics are less prudish and more open-minded when it comes to dating options, perhaps its due to the strong social services that catholic church provides for its members.

      1. 25.2.1
        Prospect

        America is also a more materialistic country as well which drives a lot of these attitudes.

  26. 26
    LC

    I’ve dated many guys who are less educated than me.  I truly don’t care about degrees as long as the guy has ambition, motivation, and works.  I don’t care if he’s as intelligent as me, either, because there are different types of intelligence.  I have a degree in Chemistry and Nuclear Engineering.  I would only have to date engineer types if I put a ton of emphasis on my man having a degree.  But I have found that my education and income have been intimidating to men, and that’s why I’ve always tried to avoid talking about it unless asked.  I think my last boyfriend disappeared because his job was going badly (he doesn’t have a degree).  He just barely makes due, but I love him very much and would have made things work.  But the expectations go both ways–a man wants to feel like “the man,” and he won’t feel that way if he’s not able to pay for things.  Some of us girls have simply educated ourselves out of the dating market, and no amount of compromise can make a man feel like a man in these times where jobs and education are increasingly escaping men.

  27. 27
    MilkyMae

    The real problem facing educated women is that there will be less men.  Not because they rule out uneducated men but because there will be less men around to actual meet in their lives.
    If women out number men in college then college relationships are less likely for women.  I’ve been on a few campuses and the lack of men is significant.   This is traditionally the time women get the most exposure to men.  After that they will probably get a job that requires a degree(they usually pay more) and there will be less men there as well.   Furthermore, some will seek higher skilled fields that employ more women such as education, healthcare and social work.  I don’t think women are “screwed” but the landscape is changing from women(and men).

  28. 28
    Stacy

    Well,lucky for me that a college education is not one of my requirements (I have a Masters).I look for men who are emotionally intelligent, wise, attractive, gainfully employed, and kind (among a few other things.) I have yet to meet men who are smarter because of formal education.Personally,I don’t see how one has to do with the other.

  29. 29
    DeeGee

    In the original post Evan said:

    which suggests that men turn into players because they don’t have to commit.

    Men turn into players because that is what works with women.
    Whenever I act as a player with a younger woman at any of the corporations I work at, she is all attentive and flirty back.
    Then when I turn into myself, an average nice guy, the women scatter like rats from a sinking ship (except the married ones, who are always asking me “you’re such a nice guy, why are still single?”).

    they were holding out for a 10

    In my experience all women usually hold out for a 10, unless they find a player who is willing to date them, or a guy who is really dating down (way down) to their level.
    No where have I seen this more than on dating sites.
    I joined OK Cupid a while ago, just out of interest to see the available women in a city I plan to move to in the next year or two.  But I decided I will try dating some of the matches that are closer.
    I think I’m only average (only a 5 in looks, maybe higher in body because I strength-train and have less than 10% body fat, currently ~$60k income doubling next year), but unless I really date down, every other woman that is on-par with me or a bit below me on OKC that I chatted with or went out with, stated to me openly that I do not meet all of their requirements for them dating way up.

    1. 29.1
      jon

      Women are lazy daters and want to be led.  If a male player shows a woman attention and energy, she will respond to his advances.  The bland, boring nice guys are un-exciting and don’t get her blood flow going.  Most men are very lazy in dating and relationships, which is the main reason that aggressive players attract so much attention with women, they are unique and mentally-strong.  Women can be very compliant and easily persuaded by an aggressive alpha man.  Women WANT to find reasons to like a guy, so a guy has to step it up and give her the aggressive attention she desires.

      1. 29.1.1
        DeeGee

        jon said: “The bland, boring nice guys

        So “nice guy” = bland and boring?

        I think it is silly that men have to always have this fake front on of being a player to be successful.

        1. jon

          Unfortunately, women’s expectations are created by the hollywood media, so they see charasmatic actors like clooney in romantic comedies and they want their real life boyfriends to wow them just like in the movies.  Men are influenced the same way in expectations of women to look like thin models.  The bland boring nice guy act might work well at church and meeting religious women who want that type of guy.  But if you don’t look as hot as brad pitt, then an unattractive guy is going to have to find other ways to spark a woman’s interest, which best done by having an aggressive player personality.  Nice guys also appear weak and wimpy, most women don’t want their husbands to be weak and wimpy.  Nice guys may have better luck with unattractive women with low self-esteem.  Don’t be asexual, women want men who aren’t afraid of their masculinity.

        2. JB

          Nice guys also appear weak and wimpy, most women don’t want their husbands to be weak and wimpy.”

          Well Jon we’ll see in the next season of The Bachelor when nice guy boring Peter Brady look alike Ben Higgins tries to woo and possibly even entertain 27 lovely ladies with his less than dynamic milk toast snoozefest personality. I’ll be interesting to watch.

          Of course the term “nice guy” will always have a different definition depending of course on what he looks like and what he does for a living.

        3. jon

          Hah, I don’t know many nice guys who date and kiss 25 women at the same time!!!  Isn’t the idea that players aggressively hit on and date several women at the same time; while nice guys sit back and wait for a woman to call him?  If you’re a nice guy, then you’ll have better odds dating younger women who might at the very least, date you for your older wisdom and intelligence.  Women just don’t value or appreciate passive unattractive men.

        4. Karmic Equation

          “Women just don’t value or appreciate passive unattractive men.”

          That’s an incorrect assumption, Jon. It’s not a matter of “not valuing” the passive unattractive guy.

          Women “need” to feel desired. So #1, pursuit makes her feel desired. So that’s why men need to pursue. It’s not so much that passivity is a turn off, but rather that pursuit is a turn-on. Not “stalkery” you-are-The-One-after-one-date pursuit, but normal, I-like-you-and-about-75%-sure pursuit.

          #2, even though most women protest to the contrary, most women want a guy with a good looking face. Not necessarily a handsome face, but something attractive about his face: Nice smile, nice eyes, nice cheekbones, nice hair, or nice shaped head if bald, etc. Something about his face has to be attractive to her. He has to have a face she can envision kissing. If she can’t envision it, deal is off. Even if he has the best body she’s ever seen. Even if he’s the nicest guy in the world.

          So, if you’re about 10-20 lbs overweight with a “good looking enough” face, you’ll do ok. You don’t need abs of steel for most women, unless she also has abs of steel. And even then, most women would overlook some weight if you have a nice face.

          Finally, #3, women do like “nice guys” but refer to #1. We like “normal” guys, not stalkery or needy guys. So showing interest is necessary and NOT showing “too much” interest is just as necessary. Sort of like a woman trying to dress sexy and not trashy. There’s a line. Most women know where that is. But some don’t. The ones that don’t get the “wrong” kind of male attention, as in he thinks she’s advertising, whereas she just thinks she looks sexy. She might not have any idea she went over the line, until he makes unwelcome advances because he misread her wardrobe intentions.

        5. DeeGee

          jon said: “while nice guys sit back and wait for a woman to call him?

          uh… no.
          I will call a girl, or ask her out.  Text or email her.
          I’m just not a pushy PUA/player who tries to be all cool and slick and get into her pants on the first date.

    2. 29.2
      Noemi

      “In my experience all women usually hold out for a 10, unless they find a player who is willing to date them, or a guy who is really dating down (way down) to their level.”

      All women?

      1. 29.2.1
        DeeGee

        Noemi said: “All women?

        I have yet to meet one who is willing to date equal (let alone down).
        I’m sure they do exist, like unicorns and zero calorie dark chocolate.

        1. verhrzn

          I’ve dated guys who made less money than me, who were more socially awkward than me, and who were my equal in physical attraction, sometimes less*, and these guys are dumped me for far more attractive/higher quality women.

          Also dark chocolate is actually far healthier for you than milk chocolate.

          #UnicornOut

          *Verified not only by friends but by random people from online dating boards where guys are NOT known for being gentle about a woman’s bad looks.

        2. DeeGee

          verhrzn said: “I’ve dated guys …”

          My comment was perhaps more facetious than serious.
          I had hoped that was obvious from the attempt at humor.  🙂

          I think a lot of the problem I have is simply my location.
          That could be the reason for my being myopic.
          A small city in oil/grain country.
          Moving is sometime in my future.

          and said: “dumped me for far more attractive/higher quality women

          Sorry to hear that.
          If they were that shallow you don’t want or need them.
          I personally don’t equate attractiveness with quality.

          and said: “Also dark chocolate is actually far healthier

          zero calorie is rare …  😉

        3. Alexis

          I’d be super happy with ‘equal’: a man with a PhD in STEMM, average height for men or taller (considering I’m taller than the average woman in my country of residence), who’s my age (+8 years) and not overweight (I’m not very fit but have a healthy body size/weight; I’m around a 6-6.5 with regards to looks). However, it’s hard to find someone whom I find attractive… I agree with the statement above: if I don’t feel like kissing a man, it’s never going to happen.

  30. 30
    Jordan

    Here is a brutal assessment of dating economics.  Two-thirds of American women are overweight.

    This would be the equivalent of two-thirds of American men living with their parents.

    Real attractive isn’t it?

     

    Footnotes:

    This is not an American women suck and foreign women are awesome post.  I live in America and I’m guessing so do most of the readers and posters so this is why I mentioned this.

    I realize that roughly the same percentage of American men are overweight too, but since women also place great emphasis on men’s status, ambition, money, and confidence, being overweight isn’t as great of a hindrance for men as it is for women in the dating marketplace.

    1. 30.1
      Chance

      Well, this message board just got really interesting today.  I look for to reading maaaaaaany heated replies tomorrow heh.

       

      1. 30.1.1
        Jordan

        Facts are stubborn things.

    2. 30.2
      Stacy

      Well, I am slim, very fit, and it’s still hard out here.lol

      Everyone complains about the same thing so I think this goes so much deeper than

       

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