Apr03

Should Women Ask Men Out on First Dates?

08:48 am on Apr 3rd 2008 Evan Marc Katz

Finding the One Online is a comprehensive, life-changing program that covers everything I teach my clients about online dating. If you want to get your love life on track and aren't sure where to start, Finding the One Online is the best investment you can make.

196 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice

196 Responses to “Should Women Ask Men Out on First Dates?”

1. Steve Apr 3rd 2008 at 09:07 am 1

   
   You can cross the room, park yourself seven feet to his diagonal, turn and smile
   

   I know I get completely turned off by women who are not 30 degrees from my line of site LOL . Sorry Evan I couldn’t resist.

   Good advice. I’ve had some nice encounters with the woman making the first move, but it is extraordinarily easy for women to overdo it and turn a guy off. I much prefer the come hither signals.

2. Jennifer Apr 3rd 2008 at 09:13 am 2

   I often have debates with my girlfriends about this, and I couldn’t agree more with Evan!
   Most men understand and accept (with the exception of the shy ones that Evan pointed out) that facing the sting of rejection is a given in the dating game. They hate it, it sucks, but they soldier on and risk it anyway *if they think the woman is worth it*. If the guy sees a woman smiling and flirting and doesn’t ask her out, then he’s either involved or not interested (lots of reasons why that could be). Bottom line, asking the woman out just wasn’t that serious to them because if it was, they would’ve risked rejection and done it. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already, and that’s what a lot of women risk if they openly and agressively pursue men.

   Plus, some men are just too poilte (and others too opportunistic) to turn a woman down, and will ultimately take advantage of a situation where they know a woman wants them, even if they could care less about her. Why would a woman set herself up for this kind of dynamic?

   I think really shy guys are the exception (somewhat), but there are probably fewer men that fit that definition than some women would like to think.

3. Steve Apr 3rd 2008 at 09:46 am 3

   
   Jennifer Apr 3rd 2008 at 09:13 am 2
   If the guy sees a woman smiling and flirting and doesn’t ask her out, then he’s either involved or not interested (lots of reasons why that could be).
   

   Or he is *shy*, or he is dense to social signals. He could be a great guy, but these things *may* be an indicator of other issues that *some* women might find to be a turn off.

   
   but I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already,

   Plus, some men are just too poilte (and others too opportunistic) to turn a woman down, and will ultimately take advantage of a situation where they know a woman wants them, even if they could care less about her. Why would a woman set herself up for this kind of dynamic?

   A lot of men need to hear that. I wish I heard it when I was young and first left home. I was slightly shy with women at the time, I was raised by political idealists and had similar women for friends. I operated on a set of “shoulds” as defined by what some idealists would have liked to be true, but wasn’t so in social reality.

   Eventually I smartened up and learned that people do not do as they say, ESPECIALLY in matters of the heart, dating, sex and romance.

   Having been there let me say, guys, you just got to suck it up. It is scary, it sucks, but if you get rejected the sun will still shine on you the next morning and the risk is well worth it because it will eventually pay off.

4. Blue Apr 3rd 2008 at 10:21 am 4

   Evan, doesn’t this article contradict the advice you gave on “Should Women Write to Men?” (http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/should-women-write-to-men/)? Why is okay for women to make first contact with men online, but not in person?

5. Evan Marc Katz Apr 3rd 2008 at 10:35 am 5

   Great point, Blue. But no, it’s not a contradiction. Because the mediums are completely different. Online, you don’t know who’s looking at you, what they’re thinking, who they’re seeing, etc. You can’t afford to be passive because of the variety of options presented to men.

   But in real life, if you know this great guy from work? And you have been friends for six months, and he still hasn’t asked you out? He’s probably not gonna ask you out.

   Thank you for calling attention to this subtle nuance. Online, YES, ask him out – as long as you’re being coy and flirtatious, rather than over-complimentary. Make him chase you. Which means that it’s pretty much the same advice as this article. You’re writing to him online, but you’re not asking him out. You’re teasing him so he asks YOU out. Therein lies the difference.

6. Michael Ejercito Apr 3rd 2008 at 10:42 am 6

   Of course they should. Men are too lazy to even get off the couch to get a beer from the fridge.

7. BooBear Apr 3rd 2008 at 10:46 am 7

   So Evan, men are just big pathetic babies who are so fragile they have to have their butts kissed all the time??

8. Selena Apr 3rd 2008 at 11:06 am 8

   Well, how does this advice fall into the “Who pays for dates?” deal? It used to be common manners that whomever does the asking should be prepared to do the paying. Some men get irked because the burden of doing the asking falls to them, and thereby the expense. And some women claim they are fine with paying their own way AND their dates, and don’t have a problem asking men out either.

   So now Evan, you are telling us the same thing our mother’s and grandmother’s did, “Don’t ask a man out because you will come across as too aggressive or desperate.” Okay, we buy that as a general rule. But does this mean we should offer to pay if we are asked out, or not? And if we don’t (because Hey! He did the asking) then are we not being fair to the poor guys who think we are only out for a free meal/entertainment? Most of us aren’t by the way, but nothing we say convinces the men who have this mentality.

9. Evan Marc Katz Apr 3rd 2008 at 11:18 am 9

   http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/who-pays-for-the-first-date/

10. Steve Apr 3rd 2008 at 11:23 am 10

    
    BooBear Apr 3rd 2008 at 10:46 am 7
    So Evan, men are just big pathetic babies who are so fragile they have to have their butts kissed all the time??
    

    BooBear thank you for posting the above quote.

    I have found that intelligent, educated and intellectually honest women can often be blind to double standards they hold in regards to women and men. Your quote is a great example to use to illustrate this. I mean this with no sarcasm. Like I said, even cool women do this.

    Lets say a woman is in a situation which threatens her sense of femininity in an objectively trivial way, but one that would give most women mildly unpleasant feelings.

    A woman joins a previously all male institution and is ordered to have her head shaved just like all of the other men and women.

    She will be injured in no way and will be every bit of a woman after the haircut. Other women would not dare to mock her feelings of nervousness at having her hair completely removed and if a man made a comment like “buck up bage, it is not big deal” he would be seen as crass.

    However, consideration for a man’s sense of masculinity is not also similarly respected.

    Whether you want to say it comes from nature, nurture, or both for most men their psychology is set up to be the initiator in social and sexual situations. Some men are threatened by the reverse while for other men it just feels odd to the point that they would rather deal with another woman.

    Bottom line, it feels odd to their sense of masculinity. Instead of respecting ( not necessarily agreeing ) of that, good people like you will feel no problem about mocking or trivializing men’s feelings in this regard.

    What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

11. Deathslayer Apr 3rd 2008 at 11:44 am 11

    “Should Women Ask Men Out on First Dates?”
    *
    Gotta say yes, they should.

    Women decide within the first few minutes if they will have sex with you and under what terms……lover (right away) or provider (meal ticket).

    And when it comes time to get her number – let her do the work. Always hint that you are interested. Never confirm it. Let HER wonder. Build up the attraction enigma in her. Keep on doing this until she gives in. THEN, you’re in business. She’ll be the one supplicating for your attention. She won’t be in control. She’ll dig
    you even more. Now, MAYBE, you can give in some sort of ‘compromise’. But only do it when you are sure that she’s bothered enough by you to actually truly want to see you.

    You earn a spot on her B-List the minute you ask her digits. Some kind of “he digs me” signal that goes on in the female brain the minute you ask for her number.

    She then starts taking B-List-Joe for granted and we all know the rest of the story…

    Just remember that men get no status from rejecting women, but women do get status from rejecting men. Sometimes they reject men for sport, to impress their girlfriends, or to satisfy their ego and sense of superiority.

    I think there are probably a few women who miss the old days when men weren’t afraid to approach them and be friendly to them, but hey, after a while men learn that it just isn’t worthwhile to be nice to someone who will most likely just be negative to you.

    Deathslayer

12. Deathslayer Apr 3rd 2008 at 11:48 am 12

    Getting attention is the feminine equivalent of “scoring.”

    For your average man, getting inside a woman’s pants is what affirms for him that he’s attractive and desirable. A man who manages to get a woman to get naked with him feels good, because he feels validated.

    For women, all it takes is knowing that you want her. That’s it. Once you look at her (or strive not to look at her) in that way that says, “Wow,” she knows that she could have you if she wanted you. It reaffirms for her that her sex is worth something. It reaffirms that when it comes time for her to make her life choice she can demand a high price because she has what men want.

    That’s why women lead men on and then give them the cold shoulder. Once you give her that look, you gave her what she was after.

    She doesn’t need anything else from you, so she sees no need to continue treating you nicely.

    Some women will smile at you across the room, lick their lips, do everything but rip their clothes off, but when you cross the dance floor and say, “Hi! Want to dance?” they say, “With you? Yeah, right.” Why? Simple: the minute you walked across the floor to ask her she had what she wanted. The rest, for her, is academic. She knows that if she’s horny she can have you, but she doesn’t want you.

    She just wanted to know that you wanted her, and she’s all done.

    Let me make things clear: if women asked men out 50% of the time (which they claim they do but obviously don’t) and tried to interest men (again this absolutely never happens, even if they do strike up a conversation first; they always expect the man to jump through hoops so that MAYBE they will be swayed by his silly antics) – then you would have a basis for complaining that men usually screw women over.

    But in reality, men ALWAYS have to pique women’s interest, it is NEVER the other way around.

    AS SUCH women 100% forfeit any right to complain.

    Here we come up against the inevitable conflict between the male and female social roles and circumstances. Because men are the “designated initiators”, they are the ones who have to take an active role in “finding” that “one”, while women get to sit in their towers and pass judgment and indulge their penchants for cruelty.

    The net effect for women has been two-fold. As long as they continue to rely entirely and exclusively on the passive strategy of attraction and abuse the sexual power they have, they are automatically sorting out all but the most aggressive males. Thus their attitudes become self-fulfilling prophesies as they make themselves so obnoxious that any man who is capable of sensitivity and warmth cannot stand to be around them.

    Deathslayer

13. Selena Apr 3rd 2008 at 12:16 pm 13

    Steve,

    Re: Post #10 That was a very good way of explaining it. Very thoughtful.

14. Michael Ejercito Apr 3rd 2008 at 01:17 pm 14

    Deathslayer,

    So how do you manipulate women into wanting to have sex with you?

15. dadshouse Apr 3rd 2008 at 02:43 pm 15

    I agree with Evan on point #1 – men should ask women out on a first date. It’s emasculating for a man if the woman is the aggressor. Once your dating, it doesn’t matter who suggests an activity. But first date, the man must ask.

    In point #2, I didn’t like how you said that alpha males are “good with women.” This is NOT necessarily the case. And in fact, it is often NOT the case and can be a huge problem in a relationship.

    Alpha males are good at approaching women, and when you’re in a bar, it’s the type-A’s who typically get the phone number or date, simply because they were more confident in that particular environment.

    But in terms of how they treat woman, a lot of alpha males just don’t get it. They often treat women like dirt. (I’m NOT talking about all alpha males, just a lot of them.) These are the men who feed off their own ego power trips, suffer from narcissism, and demand that the woman look up to them like a hero. Those relationships can be very disfunctional.

    In the longterm, type-B guys often treat women FAR better than type-A’s. In this respect, it’s the type-B guys who are “good with women.”

16. smartcookie Apr 3rd 2008 at 02:58 pm 16

    okay, so if you give the signals, he comes over and talks to you for an hour and then doesn’t ask for your number, is it okay to give him your number?

17. A-L Apr 3rd 2008 at 03:34 pm 17

    What about the average looking woman? The one who is neither a size 2 nor a size 16, not as pretty as Charlize Theron in real-life nor as unattractive as Charlize in Monster? Real-life Charlize undoubtedly can stand at a 30 degree angle 7′ from a man and have him running over in a heartbeat. But for those of us who are not drop-dead stunning, we attract men with other qualities. Our intelligence, caring/nurturing nature, adventuresome spirit, or whatever else we bring to the table. But a man can’t tell anything about these internal features by just looking. So, back to my original question; how does the average woman get men to pick her up?

18. Michael Ejercito Apr 3rd 2008 at 04:22 pm 18

    I have no problem with average-looking women; I have been interested in average-looking women before.

    A woman’s behavior has a lot to do with how attractive she is.

19. Michael Ejercito Apr 3rd 2008 at 04:23 pm 19

    Smartcookie,

    Of course you should give him your number if you feel comfortable around him.

20. Sarah G Apr 3rd 2008 at 06:59 pm 20

    DeathSlayer — you ride the bus (see yesterday’s post). I don’t believe it that there are a lot of lip-licking women on the bus, turning down your suave advances.

    Actually, I met my former fiance on a bus. He was reading “Atlas Shrugged” and I said, “Great book,” b/c someone had told me it was a great book. I hadn’t actually finished reading it. He sat down next to me and asked me out almost immediately. He said that he always carried that book out in the open, hoping that someone would comment on it. I was the only one who ever did. Perhaps I should have finished reading the book. Maybe I wouldn’t have said anything. We broke up a month after getting engaged. Thank god I dodged that bullet.

    Moral of the story: Sisters–if our assigned role in this dating/mating ritual is the “come hither” stuff, we have to make sure that we are “come hithering” in a way that serves our higher purposes. Not any old bloke will do.

    Note: I am doing eHarmony and I love it. Lots of cute guys giving me their numbers. Called one tonight at his request but he didn’t pick up. After reading this post — maybe I shouldn’t have called. He said he would be “chivalrous” and call me, but I don’t want all these guys having my number. Also, he was all complimentary in a sexy way about my cute pics — not sure I like that approach. Maybe he’s a player?

21. Collins Apr 3rd 2008 at 07:44 pm 21

    I firmly believe that in this era of equality, courage to ask for a 1st date (or any date thereafter) shouldn’t have a lick to do with gender. The other year I used to see a gal who was enough into me to ask ME for a date, though she let me decide the venue (& yes, we did split the cost). She’s out of my life now (for unrelated reasons) but I do admire the proactiveness of women like her. It also makes my day to hear/read once in a blue moon of a woman proposing marriage to a man. It gives me faith that in terms of equality, the social front will slowly but surely catch up to the career front.

22. Lance Apr 3rd 2008 at 08:46 pm 22

    @Dadshouse, I like your analysis there. Even from a social artist perspective, it’s commonly accepted that beta guys make better LTR partners and providers (ie married). They’re the safe choice. Alphas are the aggressive sex fulfillers and whatnot. I think this is changing though, as more and more safe guys are getting into social arts. I think EMK would be a good example here (Evan, I’m not calling you beta); he’s a good guy who’s obviously studied social arts and thus is well rounded. Evan, if I’m off there you can just call me a dickhead.

    Back to the original topic. Women give the signals, men do the asking out. I would like to ask if any female readers of this blog have ever asked a guy out, and if so, how did it go? I’ve never flat out been asked out, but I’ve occasionally received unsolicited signals, whereby I’ll take the next step and either reject or ask her out.

23. Selena Apr 4th 2008 at 03:00 am 23

    Lance-
    I’ve never asked someone out first. Not because of some ‘rule’ or whatever, just that when I found someone I thought I might be interested in, THEY asked me out. Prior to reading this thread, I thought it was perfectly acceptable to invite a man to join me somewhere. I had the impression guys LIKED being asked out and wished women would do it more often. Guess not. Oh well, flirting your way into a date isn’t unpleasant. And if he doesn’t make a move, then you just conclude he isn’t interested and you saved yourself some trouble.

24. homme Apr 4th 2008 at 05:56 am 24

    Evan’s advice is good for old-school women who are looking for old-school men. There are many of both in the world, and the population of them is only slowly diminishing. But, once you go beyond the this “women’s phones are only for receiving calls” and “men are from venus and women are from mars” mentality, you never turn back, because your relationships work so much better. Women and men are different in many ways, but calling for a date, buying presents, driving a car, etc. aren’t those ways.

25. Deathslayer Apr 4th 2008 at 06:20 am 25

    Deathslayer,

    So how do you manipulate women into wanting to have sex with you?
    *
    Same way they ‘manipulate’ you into buying them things.

    Understand, women use sex to get relationships, men use relationships to get sex.

    DeathSlayer — you ride the bus (see yesterday’s post). I don’t believe it that there are a lot of lip-licking women on the bus, turning down your suave advances.
    *
    I guess I probably shouldn’t read things like ‘Why Men Earn More’, ‘The No-Nonsense Guide Guide to Women, Death Note manga, The Art of War, Path of the Assassin, PC World Magazine and The Average American Male.

    Funny thing is, more women are amazed that they always see me reading something and the comment on how much I like to read. They keep asking me had I read this or that and I comment solely on the book. I never make advances on women…it’s too dangerous these days to get things misconstrued and besides, I read for knowledge and enjoyment, not to impress a woman with my literary choices.

    Deathslayer

26. Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 06:57 am 26

    I’ve often noticed that when I am asking for advice it isn’t that I am seeking information I couldn’t have come up with myself. I am looking for assurances against some fear that I have.

    If you are a woman and a man isn’t asking you out you have nothing to lose by asking him out. That is you don’t have any dates to lose.

    You do have your self esteem to lose if you get rejected. There are mountains of books and “therapies” on how to deal with that. At the very least you will have better friendships with your guy friends because you will be able to relate to them on a very big issue for men.

    I’ve seen books for women on amazon on how to drop more obvious “come hither” signals and how to initiate a date with a guy in less direct, less masculine ways.

27. Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 07:02 am 27

    
    A-L Apr 3rd 2008 at 03:34 pm 17
    What about the average looking woman? The one who is neither a size 2 nor a size 16, not as pretty as Charlize Theron in real-life nor as unattractive as Charlize in Monster?
    

    A-L;

    I’m an average looking man who likes average looking women. I’m not alone. I don’t think there are that many of us who are seriously holding out for Charlize.

    If by “average” you mean a slim body and as much trouble to appearance as the “average” woman devotes herself I would say your appearance is not an issue.

28. Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 07:03 am 28

    and Charlize isn’t all that great. She can’t make a single decision on her own. I wish she would stop texting me every hour on the hour

29. Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 07:04 am 29

    
    smartcookie Apr 3rd 2008 at 02:58 pm 16
    okay, so if you give the signals, he comes over and talks to you for an hour and then doesn’t ask for your number, is it okay to give him your number?
    

    ** YES **

    There is a huge difference between something like that and approaching him directly the way a man would approach a woman.

30. dadshouse Apr 4th 2008 at 07:34 am 30

    Sarah G – love the book reading approach! I see so many attractive women come into a coffee house and immediately pull out their cell phone and start texting. Should I walk up and say “is thattext message any good?”, or “cool phone!” Um, … no. But if she’s reading a book, I can totally approach her. Even if I haven’t read the book, I can ask if it’s any good. Books are great props to invite conversation. Add some “come hither” glances, and it’s even better.

31. bringwedding Apr 4th 2008 at 09:09 am 31

    if a man doesn’t ask a women out first dates, than probably he probably “not that into you”, but don’t you think by being brave and asking him out for the first date might be her chance to make him get to know her better ?
    Who knows that might change his mind about her ?

32. BooBear Apr 4th 2008 at 09:17 am 32

    Steve, What makes you so sure I am female? Perhaps I am a man whose penis does not shrivel when I am asked out by a woman? Again, pathetic.

33. Michele Apr 4th 2008 at 09:24 am 33

    Steve, your post # 26……..and those “books” all claim to have the answer(s) to a blissful life forever. Their marketing efforts certainly provide incredible creativity for the desperate.

    Yet another approach is that some of the online dating sites are offering FREE extended memberships for those who don’t find Ms/Mr Right, w/in a specified time frame. Seems rather clinical to me.

    AND……..then the couple finally connects. Relationship issues surface and back to amazon to “read up” on how to correct those problems. Perhaps even decide that counseling might be an option, when in reality a good number of “counselors” are riddled with difficult lives themselves

    What a tangled web life becomes………:-)

    My posture will continue to remain positive, try to enjoy each day and take things with the proverbial grain of salt (that would be sea salt).

34. BeenThruTheWars Apr 4th 2008 at 09:30 am 34

    I agree with everything Evan advised, with the exception of asking out “shy” guys. Far better to “put out the signals” that you are interested and see if he responds. If he doesn’t… move on. You’re wasting your time. He either A) doesn’t find you attractive (just because he’s shy doesn’t mean he has no “type”), B) is already in a relationship he doesn’t advertise at work, C) is gay and also may not advertise that, D) any one of a dozen other reasons he doesn’t want to ask you out, and won’t. People tend to do what they want to do, and not do what they don’t want to do.

    Case in point. When I was in my twenties, there was a “shy guy” in the department of the big ad agency where I worked. (It turned out he had almost zero dating experience — he was a 27-year-old virgin). I thought he was cute in an intense/nerdy kind of way. I knew it would be kinda icky if I asked him out directly, so instead, when the whole department was out celebrating someone’s birthday or something at a bar one night, I mentioned within his hearing that I was dying to see the new Woody Allen movie! Had anyone seen it, was it any good? The next morning, he walked into my office at 9:01 a.m., helped himself to some candy from my candy jar, and stated very matter-of-factly, “So: last night you said you wanted to see ‘Purple Rose of Cairo’… it’s playing at the such and thus theater, would you like to go see it with me this Friday after we have dinner someplace?”

    See? Shy, inexperienced guy asks out woman he’s attracted to ALL ON HIS OWN! All he needed was some encouragement/smiling/light flirting (appropriate for a business setting) and an “idea” of what might please her on a date.

    I’m in Mensa and when I was single, I dated a lot of guys in that organization. Trust me, male Mensans are not, by and large, Captain Suave in their personal lives. Lots of tech guys, engineers, IT types, etc. who work in mostly male environments and have very little contact with women. When they are in comfortable surroundings with females they’re attracted to, they have NO problem asking someone they like if they would like to check out the Star Wars convention downtown that weekend and maybe go out for Ethiopian food after.

    Etc.

    So in this one instance, I must respectfully disagree with Evan’s advice. But the rest of his advice was dead on (as usual). Heed it, and you will weed out the guys who really aren’t that interested in dating you without a single ouchie; and you will invite into your life the guys who ARE interested. It really is that simple. I don’t think of it as “old-fashioned” or outdated as much as I think of it as “classic, tried-and-true male/female dynamics” when you are dealing with two emotionally healthy people who aren’t manipulators or game-players.

35. JB Apr 4th 2008 at 09:37 am 35

    ^^^^^^^^

    I’m so sick of seeing women on their cell phone when they’re alone.
    I always walk up and open with “how come whenever I SEE a woman alone she’s talking on her cell phone but whenever I call a woman’s cell phone she never answers” …LOL !
    Which isn’t true but it’s a great opener !

    I’ve been dating 30 yrs, I can count the times on 2 hands when a woman has asked ME out on a first date (excluding weddings & such).
    Most of the time I can remember it was “lower status” women meaning women I wouldn’t persue anyway. Although I’m flattered, I usually gracefully decline. I’ll do the asking out. Thank you very much.

    If you want to email me first online or wink. I have no problem with that.

36. Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 10:11 am 36

    
    BooBear Apr 4th 2008 at 09:17 am 32
    Steve, What makes you so sure I am female? Perhaps I am a man
    

    I wouldn’t be surprised

37. Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 10:21 am 37

    Michele;
    I wouldn’t make it a mission to go through the self help books and blogs with a fine toothed comb either. If you want to ask a guy out just be less forward about it than a man. Use your own judgment. Experiment.

38. Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 10:24 am 38

    
    BeenThruTheWars Apr 4th 2008 at 09:30 am 34
    Case in point. When I was in my twenties, there was a “shy guy” in the department of the big ad agency where I worked. (It turned out he had almost zero dating experience — he was a 27-year-old virgin).
    

    Since I have never asked shy men out I was wondering what your opinion is on my intuition that guys you have to ask out come with issues the average woman would not want to deal with?

39. Li-Ann Apr 4th 2008 at 11:57 am 39

    I am with Evan 100% on this one.

    I totally respect those who commented who would like women to ask men out, but my life time of dating experience tells me that this doesn’t work in practice

    As Evan often says, he wishes it were different, but the reality is that most men lose respect or interest when you ask them out. Suddenly you are suspect in the eyes of the man. Is something wrong with you? Why are you so available? Does no one else want you? Are you desperate? Again, I stress, I wish it was not this way, and I wish it could work both ways, but it doesn’t.

    I have found that if you even give the slightest hint of being too eager – it more often than not works against you. It would be nice to think that the men out there appreciate women doing the work, but deep down most don’t once it actually happens. I recognize that there are some men on this board who do like women asking them out, and I respect and salute that, but they are in the minority of what I’ve experienced out there.

40. Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 12:17 pm 40

    
    Li-Ann Apr 4th 2008 at 11:57 am
    Again, I stress, I wish it was not this way, and I wish it could work both ways, but it doesn’t.
    

    Isn’t it sad and tiring that you do have to stress that? I know, “welcome to Planet Earth”.

    It seems like many problems in life are about people being slow to accept that a rock is a rock and not something else.

    It seems like Evan’s business is mostly about getting people to accept then work with reality rather than giving out straight information.

    I guess the name of the blog would “Advice From An Unemployed Single Dating Expert” if people could work with reality from the get-go on difficult issues.

41. hunter Apr 4th 2008 at 12:36 pm 41

    To selena,

    I remember being clueless in my 20’s and 30’s. Women come up with subtle messages, and unless you are a good looking man, we may get a subtle message, oh, say, maybe once a year. Average looking men don’t get trained by mountains of women like the good looking men do….

42. hunter Apr 4th 2008 at 12:40 pm 42

    to Selena,

    I guess what I am saying is, give the “dork”, or short, fat, bald man a second chance, he might wake up and see your invitation.

43. hunter Apr 4th 2008 at 12:45 pm 43

    To beenthruwars,

    Mensa does attract herds of men, and mostly professional. The few women mensans are attractive also.

44. Selena Apr 4th 2008 at 01:22 pm 44

    hunter-
    I’m confused. Which post of mine are you addressing?

    I’ve dated all types of men at one time or another–short, bald, dork, over-sized body builder, really different “types”. One thing I’ve learned is that the more I get to know someone, and LIKE them, the more attractive they become to me, whatever my initial impression was about their looks.

    I was shy as a child, into my early 20’s to an extent. Now in my 40’s I’m outgoing (go figure), so “my thing” (persona?) whatever you want to call it, is open and friendly. I’ve never asked anyone out first (yet) because they have always beaten me to the punch. We’ll see what may happen this year–last 11 mos. I have spent ’seasonal’, haven’t decided what city I want to settle into yet.

    You?

45. KAREN Apr 4th 2008 at 01:33 pm 45

    I am definitely listening to Evan’s advice on this one. I am always complimented on my looks, my figure and my charismatic personality. I also receive many dinner date offers.

    Therefore, with all this confidence, I decided to ask a very nice, very handsome business associate out. I had a few discussions with this man during the past few months and we really seemed to enjoy each other’s company. He did appear to be a bit shy so I decided to ask him out. Wow! I was so very embarrassed when he turned me down. I was utterly speechless as he explained why. Unfortunately, for me, he is a shy gay man. As confident as I am, I shall never ever ask a man out again! I now know how men feel when they are turned down by women.

    Yes, this has changed my outlook on dating. I tend to accept dates now from men that I normally would not otherwise date due to their height, weight or looks. As long as they are sincere, honest and have a great sense of humor I date them!! See what happens when the shoe is on the other foot!!

46. Lance Apr 4th 2008 at 01:50 pm 46

    @JB: That’s a nice little opener, I’ll file it away. I have an opener for women who walk around and text: “Hey, I know you’re texting me, but I’m standing right here.” Something along those lines. Works great on college girls.

    Here’s a Brad P phone/text opener: Send yourself a text that says, “I think you’re hot, please introduce yourself.” Then, when you see a girl texting, walk up to her, act delighted, and show her the text. Say something clever and charming.

    I just remembered, I HAVE been asked out by a woman, two weeks ago in fact. She’s a very nice girl who asked me to go watch a softball game with her. I would have said yes, but unfortunately we work together and I have a rule that I don’t date co-workers. It’s too bad, because she’s cute. It did take me by surprise, but I don’t recall losing my frame or feeling emasculated.

    I’m still on the fence on this one…

47. What Do I Think About Chicks Making The First Move? | Honey and Lance Apr 4th 2008 at 02:17 pm 47

    [...] out a quick post. There’s a great thread on Evan Marc Katz’s blog, which you can find here, entitled, “Should Women Ask Men Out On First [...]

48. Deathslayer Apr 5th 2008 at 06:24 am 48

    WHY don’t women ask men out? They don’t want to face the same rejection men get for asking them out. What rejection is that?

    THIS:

    A rant from a friend:
    “Why I don’t speak to you anymore” and it’s addressed to women in general.

    I don’t speak to you anymore. And I know you find this unthinkable. In your mind, what young single guy wouldn’t leap at the invitation to be a bit player in the drama that is your life, in which you’re the lead actress?

    After all, you’re young, female, attractive, sexually nubile, maybe even single. Aren’t all guys supposed to leap at that?

    Yet, I refuse to speak to you.

    What you’re seeing is the pinnacle in the evolution of an attitude created and reinforced by thousands of minor transgressions. Each a grain of sand in size, but so numerous, they collectively create a mountain.

    I don’t speak to you because I’ve tried before.

    I’ve been genuinely interested in your life. Yet, when I ask questions in an attempt to build a bridge of friendship between us, to seek a common ground upon which we can both meet, I receive a glassy-eyed look as if I’m bothering you. As if, deep inside, you’re screaming

    “Why are you bothering me, won’t you please shut up and leave?”

    Eventually, I learned that the common ground is neither there, nor is a place upon which I wish to walk. So, I quit building bridges.

    I don’t speak to you because I’ve tried before. I’ve tried to develop interests in the things that interest you. No matter how insipid, trivial, or dull I find the stories of your friends I’ve never met, of people I do not know, of things on TV that have no interest in watching, I try to make the effort to learn about these things.

    Because what interests you is a part of who you are, and if you are going to matter to me, I’d like to see what you like. Exposure to new things is part of growing as a person, and each person can learn from the other. A cross-pollenization of ideas.

    However, you never seem to be interested in my life. You behave as if my life is a bother to you.
    You’re not interested in finding out who I am. I’m supposed to be off in the shadows, only to step into the limelight when the central drama needs me to support you.

    When my time has passed, it’s back into the shadows I go, replaced with someone else. So, I quit trying to learn from you. After all, trying to drive the wrong way down a one-way street is as foolish as the experience is nerve-wracking.

    I don’t speak to you anymore because you’re no different than anyone else. You’re not unique anymore. There’s nothing special about you. The colors may vary, but you dress the same as everyone else. The names and faces of the other bit-actors and actresses in the central drama that is your life may be different, but the plots the same. You’re no different than a low-budget porno movie. Any novelty you may have is purely superficial, the substance is the same. Forgive me if I leave early, I’ve seen this movie before, I know how it ends, and it’s never worth the price of admission.

    So, I refuse to speak to you anymore. It doesn’t surprise me why you do not understand why I do not speak to you, though it does astonish me that you find my silence odd.

    Perhaps, you mistake the noise that emanates from you for my voice.

    Perhaps it’s because you’re so busy communicating you never bother to listen for a response. What ever the underlying cause for your lack of comprehension, one thing remains clear, what you have to say simply does not matter to me anymore.

    Deathslayer

49. Sarah G Apr 5th 2008 at 09:37 pm 49

    DS: Here’s a checklist for when you approach a woman you do not know/are interested in.

    1) Have you bathed and washed your hair today?
    2) Have you brushed and flossed recently?
    3) Is your hair cut in an attractive and not scary style?
    4) Have you hidden the PC Magazine in your backpack?
    5) Have you left your backpack at home?
    6) Did you smile sincerely and address the woman in a cordial tone?

    If you answered “no” to any or all of the above, you might get the response(s) described in your post.

    Just a thought. From one of the few people on this board who finds you amusing and not a complete turn-off.
    5) Ha

50. hunter Apr 6th 2008 at 01:07 am 50

    to Selena,

    There is a role reversal, as people mature. Women lose their shyness and men become less aggressive.

51. starthrower68 Apr 6th 2008 at 11:53 am 51

    I agree wholeheartedly with the poster waaaayyyy above that said she doesn’t want to have to convince a man to be interested in her. To that I say, AMEN my sister! I believe it’s the man’s job to pursue and the woman’s job to be open and graciously receive what he offers. I don’t mean she should be a gold-digger, bleed him dry, or anything like that. However, I do realize there are exceptions to every rule, so if any of you girls here have tried it and been successful, way to go!

52. hunter Apr 6th 2008 at 09:06 pm 52

    to Sarah G,

    Good list, thanks..

53. BeenThruTheWars Apr 6th 2008 at 09:51 pm 53

    >> Since I have never asked shy men out I was wondering what your opinion is on my intuition that guys you have to ask out come with issues the average woman would not want to deal with?

    Steve (post 38)

54. BeenThruTheWars Apr 6th 2008 at 09:51 pm 54

    Steve,

    “Guys you have to ask out” are guys who aren’t interested enough in a woman to ask her out themselves. That’s really all one needs to know, isn’t it?

    You never really know what kind of baggage or issues your date has until you’ve been seeing them exclusively for a while. Unless they are truly psycho and it’s all right out there in the open for the whole world to see! I’ve dated very outgoing men and very shy men, as well as men in between; and have not noticed that one personality type vs. another had the red flag market cornered.

55. Steve Apr 7th 2008 at 06:05 am 55

    
    Sarah G Apr 5th 2008 at 09:37 pm 49
    4) Have you hidden the PC Magazine in your backpack?
    

    Hey! I work in technology too! LOL! . I can’t deny it Sarah there really are under-socialized people in IT. That being written, one of the reasons I went into programming was all of the cool people I met who were in the field. Seems like most people in IT I met are at one extreme or the other. Either they have all of their shit together or they are a basket case.

    I’ve noticed that it is common for the latter group to cling to the belief that they are special. Smarter than other people, misunderstood geniuses, etc ( they really aren’t ). The ironic thing is that belief holds them back socially, keeping them miserable and they don’t see it. The dirty end of the “special” stick is that they believe they lack something ordinary people have which prevents them from connecting with others. If they could accept that fact that they ordinary people, they would go out, socialize, take their lumps from their mistakes, form rewarding relationships, get happier and move on.

56. cheryl Apr 7th 2008 at 04:48 pm 56

    ok my story is a bit long but here it goes…

    I really like this bouncer at my favourite club cos he’s always been very friendly and funny to me so one day i decided to ask for his number (cos i was drunk enough to, normally i would be too scared to), anyway he gave me his number right away and told me to call the next day cos he wont be working. Later he asked me if im really going to call him i didn’t give him a straight answer so he asked for my number. a few days later, we talked on the phone and he said we should grab coffee, but i was too busy so i said i’ll see you at the club on friday probably. so on friday he approached me and spend most of the night talking to me and he asked me out to dinner with his friends the next day. he told me when he’s getting off work, when he would call, and when and where dinner will be…and guess what….he Never called. why the hell would someone waste so much time if he’s not interested….does this have anything to do with me approaching him first?

57. KAREN Apr 7th 2008 at 06:56 pm 57

    To Cheryl:

    Bouncers will be Bouncers! They all behave very interested in you at first. You must realize that many many women approach them all the time. In essence, they have a vast choice of women to pick from. In this case, possibly, he decided to play games with another flower from the garden. However, “don’t sweat the small stuff” (: Count yourself lucky that this encounter didn’t go any further. In other words “leave the bouncers alone because they always bounce”!! Much luck to you in the future!! Always Enjoy Life!!

58. hunter Apr 7th 2008 at 07:22 pm 58

    to beenthruwars,

    If we define a shy person as one who is unaware of his own power,
    you might have a point there, about asking shy men out and having to deal with issues the average woman may not want to. How interesting….

59. hunter Apr 7th 2008 at 07:35 pm 59

    to steve

    There is truth in your words! Undersocialized people!,,LOL! I love it!…They are out there!….

    Might I add to that, relationship challenged, uninformed, etc. It is sad that they are this way. They no longer have to be that Way!…..I think most are unaware, that there is so much relationship info, going around, especially on the internet!……

60. Deathslayer Apr 8th 2008 at 08:56 am 60

    DS: Here’s a checklist for when you approach a woman you do not know/are interested in.

    1) Have you bathed and washed your hair today?
    *
    Yes. I’m still ugly, but I smell good.
    2) Have you brushed and flossed recently?
    *
    Yes, having only one tooth makes that chore easy.

    3) Is your hair cut in an attractive and not scary style?
    *
    Define ’scary’

    4) Have you hidden the PC Magazine in your backpack?
    *
    No. Actually more women ask me if I’m into computers, give me their email or phone number to help them with a computer problem.

    5) Have you left your backpack at home?
    *
    Why would I do that…It contains my tools, including the claw hammer. Consider it an alignment tool.

    6) Did you smile sincerely and address the woman in a cordial tone?
    *
    Yes I did smile…sadly she mistook my smile as one of a psychopath on a rampage and left me alone. I get that a lot. Something about wearing all black, tinted black glasses and a look that has made people say they don’t want to meet me in a dark alley.

    If you answered “no” to any or all of the above, you might get the response(s) described in your post.
    *
    Actually my real problem is making time to even talk to a woman…making money on computers is more fun.

    Just a thought. From one of the few people on this board who finds you amusing and not a complete turn-off.
    5) Ha
    *
    No offense taken.

    Deathslayer

61. downtowngal Apr 9th 2008 at 06:27 pm 61

    I’m totally w Evan on this one. I’ve often heard guys say, ‘gee, I wish a woman would ask ME out for once’ but truth is, that same guy would be the one pursuing a woman he likes.

    And I agree with BeenThroughtheWars, even the shy guys will muster up the courage to ask a girl out. He might need more encouragement but he’s still a guy. I had a boyfriend who was a very shy introvert but was very aggressive in pursuing me and very expressive, wrote amazing love notes; and I knew he was sincere as he wasn’t a player.

    I think guys get turned on by asking a women out as it’s a very masculine thing to do, just as I get turned on if a guy asks me out. Even if I’m not into the guy I respect him; likewise, if a woman directly asks out a guy I think he loses respect for her.

62. vino Apr 10th 2008 at 04:45 pm 62

    “Should Women Ask Men Out on First Dates?”

    Yes. DS has some points.

    “Getting attention is the feminine equivalent of “scoring.”

    He’s got that nailed. “For women, all it takes is knowing that you want her. That’s it. . . That’s why women lead men on and then give them the cold shoulder. Once you give her that look, you gave her what she was after.

    “She doesn’t need anything else from you, so she sees no need to continue treating you nicely.”

    “She just wanted to know that you wanted her, and she’s all done.”

    Funny thing is that the coolest women I meet are the ones who initiate contact with me. Since I don’t care if I date anyone, including them, it’s intriguing to them. When women who are used to being pursued aren’t, it takes them aback. Why? They know you cannot be controlled, as DS describes. They like this ‘challenge’ since most men they meet aren’t.

63. Hot Alpha Female Apr 10th 2008 at 09:06 pm 63

    I really think that guys that think its OK when a girls asks them on a date don’t really know what it going on.

    Guys are build for a little bit of a challenge. Its not a logical thing. Its a irrational inbuilt thing.

    Just how a girl can be attracted to a guy and not know why. A guy is inevitability much more attracted to a girl who lets him do the chasing.

    Simple as that

    Hot Alpha Female

    http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com

64. hunter Apr 11th 2008 at 06:28 am 64

    Another factor to consider…..if a man is fighting depression, he will, most likely, never ask a woman out…

65. vino Apr 11th 2008 at 08:44 am 65

    “A guy is inevitability much more attracted to a girl who lets him do the chasing.”

    Huh? Girls who sit back & expect the girl to do all of the work are simply not worth the effort. Nothing like starting out prostrating yourself to another. Nonsensical.

66. vino Apr 11th 2008 at 08:46 am 66

    Made a typo.

    “expect the girl” should be expect the guy.

    Multitasking not strong suit.

67. Michele Apr 11th 2008 at 01:43 pm 67

    Hunter…..your #64 post.

    Depression can be cured. Sometimes the meds are a necessary element to do so. How do I know? They were my crutch after a bitter divorce. Am OK now and back to my positive (often times) idealistic/liberal self.

68. hunter Apr 11th 2008 at 03:48 pm 68

    to Michele,

    There is a new therapy going around, I believe it is called, cognitive behavioral, works without meds, most men won’t even do that…

69. cinnamon Apr 13th 2008 at 12:46 am 69

    to vino,
    I do see the points in your’s and DS’s reasoning . From my personal point of view I think there is one more aspect that might need considering. If a woman shows you interest in any way or even initiates contact with you and you give her an impression that you don’t care if you date her or not, then there is a big chance the woman will conclude that you’re not that into her. I would like to underline that this is not a matter of the amount of effort or power in the relation, these should be more or less balanced in my opinion. It’s a matter of letting someone know that their interest is being reciprocated.
    Especially if you’re looking for a girl who is feminine, the chance that she will actively pursue a man after she started to suspect that he’s not into her is very small…

70. JerseyGirl Apr 13th 2008 at 04:48 pm 70

    “Just remember that men get no status from rejecting women, but women do get status from rejecting men. Sometimes they reject men for sport, to impress their girlfriends, or to satisfy their ego and sense of superiority.”
    —————————————————————————–
    Neither myself, or any of my girlfriends reject men for “sport”. We have however, rejected men because we were just not attracted back and did not want to lead him on. If these area the type of women you keep encountering, then you need to look at yourself and why you are driven to be attracted to the same type.

    As for the intial question. I think typically men should ask women out. Just the natural course of nature between men and women. But I will also argue that men are not always so good at picking up signals and women are not always good at giving good signals. Sometimes men are very literal and straight forward in the sense that a coy smile doesn’t always give them the hint. Sometimes, a woman thinks she is being obvious and giving many signals but she really isn’t doing anything that they guy really reads as interest. I don’t think people always realize what message they are giving and I certainly don’t think people always interupt other people’s messages clearly. I would bet there are a huge number of men and women out there that were interested in each other but never came together because of mixed signals.

71. hunter Apr 13th 2008 at 08:58 pm 71

    to jerseygirl,

    you said, ‘I bet there are a large number of men and women out there, that, never met because of mixed signals,” I agree with you on that one….but most of us know the problem, and have known for years, question is, “do you have a solution?”

72. vino Apr 14th 2008 at 08:45 am 72

    I do see the points in JG’s and cinn’s posts, particularly JG’s regarding missed signals and opportunities. My thing is if ladies want equality across the board societally speaking (job access, equal pay for equal work, etc.), it also applies in this area too. Simply put, if ladies can do everything men can, they should in the dating arena also.

    I’d also see if I can get a few responses to this question – Why, specifically, do you ladies prefer that men make all of the moves?

    Enough about what SHOULD be. The reality is that most guys are not great at picking up any but the most obvious signals from women as a green light to initiate contact/flirting. The further reality is that guys who are truly interested in meeting someone will have to initiate more, and get over any rejection fears they have of doing so.

73. JerseyGirl Apr 14th 2008 at 10:43 am 73

    If I did, I would be married to the man of my dreams right now.

74. missy Apr 15th 2008 at 08:56 am 74

    Vino: “Why, specifically, do you ladies prefer that men make all of the moves?”

    Evolutionary psychology – the deeply ingrained, unconscious attraction response by a woman to a man who appears to be able to lead effectively. Probably doesn’t stand up to reason in today’s day and age, but people can’t help being pulled by what they’re automatically drawn to.

    Thick forearms, meaty chest and a nice bulge in his jeans doesn’t hurt either.

75. cinnamon Apr 15th 2008 at 10:08 am 75

    “Why, specifically, do you ladies prefer that men make all of the moves?”
    Probably you’ll get as many different reasons as there are women who prefer that. For me, making the first moves goes somehow with two traits that I value in men, i.e. being responsible and protective. I really do not see this as an opposition to wishing job access or equal pay for equal work…

76. vino Apr 15th 2008 at 11:31 am 76

    Missy: ” . . . and a nice bulge in his jeans doesn’t hurt either.”

    - As opposed to a nasty bulge?

    I don’t know that I agree it is ‘evolutionary psychology’ so much as societal conditioning. Men are conditioned they should do it and women to expect it.

    I’m going to be a bit argumentative with cinn – I see a flaw in your reasoning. If you or any woman can do everything a man can do in society (this is the key), not just work, then you can also assume the responsibilities of initiating contact with someone you fancy.

    As I see it women expecting guys to do all of the pursuing is a bit disingenuous. On the one hand, ladies can go out & slay the dragons in the working world just like the guys, but in dating, they’re suddenly seeking to be pursued like some shrinking violets. This is my point about picking and choosing responsibilities they don’t like.

    Being responsible & protective? I don’t understand how me walking up to you to flirt with you represents that. Also, if women can do everything I can do, they can protect themselves, and do not need a man to do it. If you’re responsible enough to do the same things I do in the working world, you are responsible enough to go talk to a guy.

    My issue is that women in general like to have it both ways – Equality at work, but treat me like a delicate flower 100 years ago, when women did little proactive work in courting/mating.

    If you want to be equal, then be equal. Go talk to that guy. Ask him out. As an equal, you are equally responsible for dating and finding someone. If you don’t talk to him, someone else will.

77. frau kluger als wein Apr 15th 2008 at 02:15 pm 77

    Vino: “My thing is if ladies want equality across the board societally speaking (job access, equal pay for equal work, etc.), it also applies in this area too.”

    **************

    Men and women should have equal rights, yes. Equal rights should not be confused with psychologically sameness. A preference for the man making the first move could be lumped into the same category as liking shopping, shoes & makeup – a tendency exhibited far more strongly in women, but one which does not make them any less entitled to equal paying jobs.

    Furthermore, there are no laws in effect barring a woman from asking a man for a date. So you could say even here male/female equality remains intact. It just so happens that males choose to exercise the right to solicit dates more frequently than females as a societal trend.

    For the record, I see nothing wrong with a woman making the first move if she can pull it off smoothly enough. Just like any man. But if the assertion here is: “Women’s want justice in the workplace, therefore they should also want to be the initiator in mating matters”, my response is “Not necessarily.”

    Btw, specious arguments like Vino’s above aren’t exactly a competitive advantage for a man in the workplace. Lmao.

78. vino Apr 15th 2008 at 05:43 pm 78

    Frau:

    “Equal rights should not be confused with psychologically sameness. A preference for the man making the first move could be lumped into the same category as liking shopping, shoes & makeup – a tendency exhibited far more strongly in women, but one which does not make them any less entitled to equal paying jobs.”

    No one is saying it is psychological sameness. I certainly did not. One could also say that a woman’s preference for lack of initiation is

    “Furthermore, there are no laws in effect barring a woman from asking a man for a date.”

    - What does that have to do with anything? I bet most women would welcome that law, in any event.

    “So you could say even here male/female equality remains intact.”

    - It does in theory, not in practice. If this thread indicates anything, it’s that equal women want to be catered to in the dating arena (come talk to me 1st, ask for my #, initiate the call, ask me out, make the plan, take care of the arrangements, pick me up, take me there pay for the date..) as though it were 1925, and they were basically sheltered creatures till they were married off, usually by age 21. It’s an anachronism, not to mention a double standard.

    “t just so happens that males choose to exercise the right to solicit dates more frequently than females as a societal trend.”

    - It doesn’t just so happen. That’s what men have been historically trained to do. The funny thing is that more and more men are opting out of this. The related threads of “Where are all of the Good Guys” on this site is indicative of this. They’re leaving this way of dating & mating, so it’s not a trend of asking women more frequently. It’s trending away from that, if anything.

    “For the record, I see nothing wrong with a woman making the first move if she can pull it off smoothly enough. Just like any man.”

    - I agree. But most don’t. They expect a guy to do all the work.

    “But if the assertion here is: “Women’s want justice in the workplace, therefore they should also want to be the initiator in mating matters”, my response is “Not necessarily.””

    - No, they shoudn’t WANT to be the initiator…the present situation favors them too much to WANT that.

    I read an interesting article a week ago. I want to say Rudov wrote it. that used the Biblical story of Adam and Eve that speaks to this. At its base level, the story is one of CHOICES and DEALING with the CONSEQUENCES of those CHOICES. It’s called adulthood.

    In the beginning (had to do that!) Adam was in Eden, protected by God. That’s how children are raised. God instructed Adam to eat as he wanted from the Tree of Life but never from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam did so.

    Then God made Eve and then the serpent. On cue, the serpent convinced Eve convinced Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Eve, in turn, persuaded Adam to eat also. Because of this disobedience, God expelled them from the protection of the Garden of Eden to the big, bad, real world.

    The article’s interpretation was that taking Knowledge of Good and Evil, Adam and Eve became “human.” In doing so, they CHOSE elected adulthood, freedom of choice, and accountability, instead of a coddled life in the Garden.

    So after leaving Eden, Adam and Eve lost their immortality via the Tree of Life, which now forced them to procreate and become parents. Adam also learned that going forward he would earn a living “by the sweat of his brow.” Knowing Right vs. Wrong separated Adam and Eve from the animals and made them responsible for the first time—a depth they didn’t have in Eden. This abrupt change enhanced, not diminished, their lives. On the contrary, living forever like a protected, spoiled, entitled child is a punishment, not a reward.

    So Garden of Eden lesson is that life is about choices. However, this lesson is lost on the women who constantly decry the dearth or death of chivalry. Too many ladies fail to accept the premise that, once they leave their parents’ “Gardens of Eden,” they are choosing the responsibilities and accountability of adulthood. Unfortunately, these coddled, entitled women want the double standard of one foot in the real world—college degrees, big salaries, home ownership—and one in the garden of special privileges—come talk to me 1st, ask for my #, initiate the call, ask me out, make the plan, take care of the arrangements, pick me up, take me there pay for the date, presumed wining & dining, etc. Such a woman wants to achieve and to be taken care of. But, life doesn’t work that way.

    What is this these entitled women so crave? Today, this ‘chivalry’ is a one-way street of give, give give from men to women. Men extend chivalry not out of respect but as a necessary means to an end (sex). Contrast this with civility, which is a two-way street of considerate, generous behavior. Civility is bereft of gender-based entitlement; chivalry is all about gender-based entitlement.

    Just as Eve made a fundamental choice about life, so, too, must women in today’s world choose: deferential treatment or respect. They can have one or the other, but never both. Women who want chivalry and also believe chivalrous men respect them as peers are kidding themselves. In an era when a woman can become anything she wants and earn as much as she wants, if she also expects men to do all the work and finance her social life, she is beyond audacious. She’s rude and narcissistic.

    Ladies can’t get special treatment from the bank, the IRS, doctor, or other places. Why should she get it from men? She shouldn’t. But, if a man accords her special treatment, it’s because by demanding it she has reduced herself to a sex object. And, that’s really how he views her. Their so-called relationship then becomes based on legalized prostitution, not respect.

    If women want to gain respect amongst men, they must leave the Garden of Eden permanently, with both feet in the real, tough world. They must stop demanding chivalry, act like peers, and treat men like peers. This critical behavioral change does not make women less feminine and men less masculine. It makes them peers—equal in intelligence, capability, and potential—with different sex organs and complementary styles.

    “Btw, specious arguments like Vino’s above aren’t exactly a competitive advantage for a man in the workplace. Lmao.”

    - Yes, pointing out hypocrisy has no place at work. Particularly applied to ladies.

79. cinnamon Apr 15th 2008 at 07:27 pm 79

    vino
    I’m glad to hear that the cases of women taking initiative have so far worked fine for you. However, it has not worked out for me so I would like to reserve my right to feel about the issue the way I do.
    Jennifer wrote in one of the posts above: “I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already”. Well, I couldn’t agree more.

80. vino Apr 15th 2008 at 10:31 pm 80

    Cinn, my pal:

    ” . . . However, it has not worked out for me so I would like to reserve my right to feel about the issue the way I do.”

    - You absolutely do. Not trying to suggest otherwise, just perhaps a different way of looking at things. Also, please consider that while initiating dating may not have worked for you, I don’t know that you’ve done it much. Point is that if it hasn’t worked for you in your (likely) limited tries, consider that men always must to initiate, only get shot down the vast, vast majority of the time. This occurs from earliest interactions with women in teens going forward. Imagine the toll hundreds of rejections take over the years to most guys. Just asking you to consider the flip side.

    “Jennifer wrote in one of the posts above: “I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already”. Well, I couldn’t agree more.”

    - Here’s my reaction to that thinking: too bad. Cold, I know. (I’m also working on 4 hrs of sleep, so crankiness is a factor). But it’s okay for a man to start an association with you as a woman trying to convince you he’s worth your time if you don’t already feel that same way… See the double standard in such a perspective? You want him to do things you are unwilling to do. Not because it’s so horrible, but because you don’t want to risk your pride and ego, 2 things which, IMHO, are big barriers in maintaining meaningful relationships, romantic or otherwise.

    Again, women can do everything men can do. In dating that means actually taking a risk, taking some initiative. It’s like being Goldilocks – you want the bowls of poridge to come to you…”No that one’s too hot.” “No, that one’s too cold.” “This one’s just tepid enough to do”

    Ladies like being Goldilocks, not the poridge. Understandable, but hypocritical.

    BTW, I agree with Evan that guys to maximize their chances, should take the initiative. Women on the whole expect this, so it’s about the likelihood of success. The reality, not what should be.

    The flip side is that there are increasing numbers of men don’t want to play this little double standard game where women are go-getter adults, but pampered princesses in dating and mating. So the pool of good guys dwindles further for women.

81. Michael Ejercito Apr 16th 2008 at 07:45 am 81

    Jennifer wrote in one of the posts above: “I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already”. Well, I couldn’t agree more.

    A man could say a similar thing about a woman.

    So why should men ask women out on dates, but not the other way around?

82. Hat Pines Apr 16th 2008 at 09:58 am 82

    “Just asking you to consider the flip side.”

    She’s a WOMAN.

    She will refuse to understand the flip side.

    women expect us to understand THEM and to be considerate about THEIR feelings, while not making any effort to understand US or be considerate of OUR feelings.

    Is there any surprise we dont respect women? That we are only in it for sex?

83. cinnamon Apr 16th 2008 at 11:08 am 83

    vino, my friend

    I do see a lot of good reasoning and good will in your point of view Especially, the one about the value of being authentic. What I cannot understand is actually one of the first statements from you in this thread:

    “Since I don’t care if I date anyone, including them, it’s intriguing to them. When women who are used to being pursued aren’t, it takes them aback. Why? They know you cannot be controlled, as DS describes. They like this ‘challenge’ since most men they meet aren’t.”

    I’m absolutely with you on the argument that says not wanting to risk your pride and ego are big barriers in maintaining meaningful relationships, romantic or otherwise. On both sides. So true! But how come do I read in one of your posts that you prefer showing indifference towards a woman because it gives you control over the situation, and just next to that you appeal to women to be authentic and initiate contact? I’m not afraid of an honest rejection. Unfortunately, I did not experience an honest rejection and I simply take it as a lesson learned.

84. vino Apr 16th 2008 at 01:41 pm 84

    cinn, my friend

    About one of my first statements, maybe I wasn’t clear enough. The statement:

    “Since I don’t care if I date anyone, including them, it’s intriguing to them. When women who are used to being pursued aren’t, it takes them aback. Why? They know you cannot be controlled, as DS describes. They like this ‘challenge’ since most men they meet aren’t.”

    I don’t advocate showing indifference as a means to obtain control. I really don’t care. That’s the key. It is being authentic. It happens to give me complete control as a consequence. More often than not, women are used to guys pursuing them like dogs after a treat. It’s old hat to them. That a guy isn’t so into them and their charms (particularly if they are used to it often) many find a challenge, usually too much so. I don’t advocate indifference as a game, for the game becomes obvious soon enough, if it’s being played. I just don’t care to chase. It’s no game (Self-imposed hiatus from dating). Hope that explains it.

    About appealing to women to be authentic and initiate contact – I’m simply saying that if a woman wants to talk to a guy, go talk to him. Just as if a guy wants to talk to a girl, he should. the problem is expecting him to always talk. I think it’s hypocritical to expect people to do things you yourself are unwilling to do (not you personally, but the royal ‘you’).

    I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes – no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. Poly Sci tells us that no one wants to willingly give up power, so there you have it. I think it’s that simple.

    I’m sorry to hear you experienced a dishonest rejection. The thing is, men are expected to blindly put themselves up for rejection every time. You got but a taste of what every single guy experiences multiple times.

85. vino Apr 16th 2008 at 01:58 pm 85

    As an aside….

    I enjoy cinn’s posts. They seek to understand. I hope mine convey the same.

86. Hat Pines Apr 16th 2008 at 02:05 pm 86

    I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes – no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. Poly Sci tells us that no one wants to willingly give up power, so there you have it. I think it’s that simple.
    and then they complain about where all the nice guys are.

87. hunter Apr 16th 2008 at 02:22 pm 87

    to vino,

    I would suggest you continue to study and research human(female) behaviour. Relating to the opposite sex, should involve some work, but it should be fun work. Keep asking and reading up on relatioships, you will find the answers, that you want to hear.

88. vino Apr 16th 2008 at 02:56 pm 88

    Who says I’m looking for answers? Or specific ones at that?

89. cinnamon Apr 16th 2008 at 10:05 pm 89

    vino,
    “I’m sorry to hear you experienced a dishonest rejection.”
    I love this one No, what I experienced was rather in the direction of game playing, so I hope you understand that I see red when I see any indication of game playing. Especially in your post
    But I admit I see your approach more clearly now. I would like to believe the intention is the same as my backing off anytime I smell gameplaying (instead of involving meself in it).

    By the way, not that long ago someone recommended me a book by Gottman “The Relatonship Cure: A 5 Step Guide for Building Better Connections with Familiy, friends and Lovers”. The book is reportedly based on a very thorough scientific research of communication patterns in successful and unsuccesful couples. I haven’t read it yet, but I just thought of it because I have a feeling the question who should initiate contact is quite similar to the question who should say “sorry” first after an argument. I assume in good couples the question of who should do it first does not exist…

90. JB Apr 17th 2008 at 07:34 am 90

    We all know who has the MOST power in any relationship dynamic between a man & a woman. It’s not ALWAYS the woman. It’s the one who cares the least and/or has the most options.

    This book outlines it perfectly:
    “The Passion Trap: Where Is Your Relationship Going?”
    By Dean C. Delis & Cassandra Phillips

    Incredible book

91. openly jay Apr 17th 2008 at 06:35 pm 91

    Vino: “I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes – no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. ”

    See, this sort of statement is offensive to women because it’s some guy overgeneralising and telling women what’s going on in their heads (and attacking them for flaws that were purely speculated).

    Well, Dorothy & Toto must be somewhere nearby because that, my friends, is most certainly a straw man.

    Vino, I suggest you limit your assertions to fact from now on. I trust you know the difference.

92. vino Apr 17th 2008 at 08:15 pm 92

    openly:

    Did you read a flipping word I wrote in this thread besides that little snippet? Please do before thinking you can castigate, or take something out of context.

    And regarding my ‘assertions’ being limited to ‘facts’ – I can certainly take the time to research articles, books, etc. to source every little thing I write. Something tells me if that is the standard, there would be precious few posts, and ones that do exist not favorable to ladies.

    BTW, the preceding paragraph to the one YOU chose says:

    “About appealing to women to be authentic and initiate contact – I’m simply saying that if a woman wants to talk to a guy, go talk to him. Just as if a guy wants to talk to a girl, he should. the problem is expecting him to always talk. I think it’s hypocritical to expect people to do things you yourself are unwilling to do (not you personally, but the royal ‘you’).”

    Then follows the one openly chose:

    “I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes – no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. Poly Sci tells us that no one wants to willingly give up power, so there you have it. I think it’s that simple.”
    openly wrote:

    What speculated flaws? The fact that many, if not, most women expect treatment they themselves are unwilling to give (based upon the responses in this thread)? This is offensive? Puh-leeze.

    “See, this sort of statement is offensive to women because it’s some guy overgeneralising and telling women what’s going on in their heads…”

    What? Only women can criticize actions by women? Give me a break. Or it can only be done in a fashion you approve of? Respectfully, save the sanctimony.

    And I don’t care if someone is offended by my pointing out hypocrisy. Hypocrites usually do mind it.

    Oh, and FYI, a straw man argument is the fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody’s argument, rather than the actual argument they’ve made.

    What women on the whole here are saying is that they expect men to initiate contact with them. I’m not creating a caricature or extreme version of the position at all. I’m saying that is the case. It’s hypocritical, because they are equal and can do everything men can do, so expecting preferential treatment in one sphere (dating) while being equal in another is hypocritical, and an anachronistic double standard.

    But it’s not a straw man argument. Please be correct before you level that accusation. And read posts fully before doing so.

93. cinnamon Apr 17th 2008 at 11:00 pm 93

    vino,
    re:#85

    Why I seek to understand is because I see a lot of idealism hidden in your posts, though certainly affected by a considerable dose of disillusionment.

    In connection with the above, I believe it is better to look for good things in people rather than pointing out their faults. Holding negative expectations towards someone can easily lead to the so called self-fulfilling prophecy, as far as I know there is a number of experiments within e.g. social psychology that confirm that.

    Now, I’m again prepared to be accused of hypocrisy . I just stated I had a negative experience with initiating contact first and hold negative expectations in his area. Well, after reading this whole thread I certainly have a more nuanced picture in my head than I had before. And getting a more nuanced picture is the only reason why I at all started to read this blog.

    My point is you can easily argue and discuss inconsistences in someone’s way of looking at things without putting a negative label on them.

94. hunter Apr 17th 2008 at 11:41 pm 94

    to Vino,

    I hear there are many women who approach men. I understand these women that approach men, are labeled, the “man”, in the relationship. Have you ever heard the saying, “There are more men in the world with vaginas?”……hhmmhhh, yes,…..

95. hunter Apr 17th 2008 at 11:44 pm 95

    to vino,

    …most cute/good looking guys are approached by women, on a daily basis!….

96. Eda Apr 18th 2008 at 04:02 am 96

    The argument that have been made that women want equality in one area — employment, but not in the other — dating/romance doesn’t acknowledge that lots of men also prefer more the traditional male/female roles in dating. It is those men who don’t really want a woman to ask them out. They do like concrete indication that woman are interested, but they still want to do the pursuing. Some of my male friends really don’t speak very highly of women who aggressively pursue them.

    I do realize that the changing gender roles can be hard on men, but they are hard on women too. We are given two messages — you don’t really need a man — you can be self sufficient, but at the same time, we are seen as somehow lacking if we don’t have a man/SO. It’s my perception, that men who are single by choice or not, aren’t judged as harshly as single women. I just wish that we could help each other find solutions to the instead of complaining all the time. I, for example, try to show up with more feminine sensibilities when I am in a romantic relationship. I’m not perfect, but I try — and that’s all we can do.

97. vino Apr 18th 2008 at 11:08 am 97

    My friends cinn, hunter & Eda,

    Perhaps there is idealism dosed with disillusionment. In general, I try to live within the realm of what is more likely than not. I also think that idealism, like love, may be blind. However, I think I read it here, it also need not be deaf, dumb and stupid either. You have to see where your ideals fit in a reality where things that may contradict your ideals are more likely than not to occur.

    Admittedly, calling something or someone hypocritical is probably not the best way to win friends & influence people every time. But pussy-footing (sorry for the phrase, it’s the most accurate that comes to mind) around everything to not offend does little in my opinion, either, because people often don’t get the point if you pussy-foot too much.

    “I hear there are many women who approach men. I understand these women that approach men, are labeled, the “man”, in the relationship. Have you ever heard the saying, “There are more men in the world with vaginas?”……hhmmhhh, yes,…..”

    hunter, my experience is that most women, whether they approach men or not, constantly test and indirectly prod (I don’t mean this in a negative way, BTW) to see whether he’s going to be man enough to run the relationship equally or not. If he doesn’t she’s going to be the ‘man’ by default. This occurs whether she approaches or not. FYI, one of my best friends is someone who approached me a year ago.

    Eda has a good post – ” . . . doesn’t acknowledge that lots of men also prefer more the traditional male/female roles in dating . . . aggressively pursue them.”

    There are many guys who prefer this traditional role. Agreed. Maybe it’s because it’s all they know. Who knows? My point is that, given the context of the thread’s theme (Should Women ask guys out) women should. My further point is that increasing numbers of men feel the same way, so those ‘traditional’ role guys Eda references are a shrinking number. That’s how I think it is. I think smart women will acknowledge this.

    Like I said, I agree with Evan – a guy to maximize likelihood of success should initiate, because that’s what women in general expect. Living in “the realm of what is more likely than not…”

    Where I part ways with Eda on empathy is this:

    “I do realize that the changing gender roles can be hard on men, but they are hard on women too. We are given two messages — you don’t really need a man — you can be self sufficient, but at the same time, we are seen as somehow lacking if we don’t have a man/SO. It’s my perception, that men who are single by choice or not, aren’t judged as harshly as single women.”

    My issue with the above is that the changing gender roles being hard on women. It is women who advocate for these changes and benefits. Now that they have what they want for the most part, it still seems not enough. If you choose a path that is hard on you, my answer is that is your choice. Grin & bear it.

    With that said, Eda further writes: “I just wish that we could help each other find solutions to the instead of complaining all the time. I, for example, try to show up with more feminine sensibilities when I am in a romantic relationship. I’m not perfect, but I try — and that’s all we can do.”

    Amen. I agree. Here’s the rub – All too often, actually identifying the problems and issues is seen as complaining and little more. You cannot solve something until everyone agrees it is a mutual problem, not just a complaint.

    Where we’re at is an impasse in general – Women essentially ask “What’s wrong with men?” or “Where are all the good guys” or “All guys want is sex” (I’m simplifying a bit -I hope the intent is clear). I and many other male posters I read here reply that there are fundamental imbalances, inequities, double-standards, and inequitable laws that render the dating and mating game a less than 50/50 chance of winning. The response from most female posters is generally one of “Guys are complaining/whining” or “It’s still men’s fault”… Thereby keeping imbalance. See post #84 re: power & keeping it. Not all women do this I stress, but an awful, awful lot of the time. Hardly provides an incentive to be more understanding or work together.

    Ok, I guess I could’ve posted this in the understand opposite sex day thread as well, but I trust it makes clear where I’m coming from.

98. hunter Apr 18th 2008 at 07:04 pm 98

    to vino,

    I agree with you, women are constantly testing a man. That is part of their defense mechanism. Women want to know who you are.

99. hunter Apr 18th 2008 at 07:08 pm 99

    to vino,

    I am glad one of your best friends, approached you first……

100. cinnamon Apr 21st 2008 at 10:41 am 100

     vino,
     This part of your post, in the context of this thread and your remark about the dating hiatus, has kept puzzling me over the weekend:
     “FYI, one of my best friends is someone who approached me a year ago.”
     Is friendship better than relationship? Just to clarify, I mean relationship with a big R, not “dating”…

101. vino Apr 21st 2008 at 12:00 pm 101

     cinn,

     “Is friendship better than relationship? Just to clarify, I mean relationship with a big R, not “dating”…”

     The short answer – yes.

     The reasons are many, but the short answer is it’s not worth it to me. I was involved in a LTR for a long time. Lived together, did the whole thing. Here’s the thing – I don’t like compromising. I don’t like the thousands of little compromises that are involved with a ‘relationship.’ Been there, done that. Don’t want to do it again. I’d rather work, have my friends, dog and hobbies. I don’t need a ‘relationship’ to be happy.

     I’m in my mid 30’s – in very good physical condition, terrific profession, all my hair it makes no sense to limit my opportunities now. Sex? That’s easy enough to get.

     Most telling is that I haven’t made great choices about mates & relationships in the past. So I see no need to get into one for some time. Clearly, I haven’t learned enough. Or maybe I’ve learned too much. See below.

     Also, I’ve mentioned or read this on other threads here, I think – but there is simply no reason to be in a relationship as a guy (or any guy) where I’m at. I have the maximum amount of choices now. I don’t want kids, so have none of those pressures.

     Also, I’m pretty wary of most women. Sorry to say, but it’s true. There is a battle going on in society as represented in this board often. I think there are so, so many women who want money out of dating, that it’s very difficult to take them seriously. It’s also very difficult to reliably weed out those who are playing bait-and-switch on it also. Look at match… at least 2/3 of the women there (where I am) not only put down what they earn, but are brazen enough to put down that their ‘ideal date’ earns 2-3x what they do, is ’successful’ ‘ambitious’ or other similar adjective. Ugh.

     The money thing’s an issue (and better explored on other threads) just because I’m not going to fund someone’s social life. I’d rather spend it on myself or hey, a novel idea…save it. Relevance to this thread is the point that they are equal, as I said above, and expecting someone else to pay you to be with them is a double-standard, narcissistic, and, I believe, whorish, without the benefit of guaranteed sex.

     Daily interactions are no better. I know 2 women who are good friends, both divorced by 30. One brags about how she ‘got every little thing she was entitled to’… and they both really only go out socially with doctors, lawyers and business owners. And they wonder why I blow them off at every turn…That’s but one example of many.

     Don’t get me started on divorce. Let’s just say there’s no reason on this planet for a guy who doesn’t want kids to marry.

     I could write tons more about this, but the thing is, I’m free, happily so. I have a great living, good friends, flexibility (may move overseas in a year or so). I don’t have to clear that with someone. I don’t have to worry about calling someone to tell them I’m going to be 30 minutes late, or deal with their family, or their moods, or anything else. It’s great. I can go to wine country on a whim, or camping, or whatever. And it doesn’t have to be camp Hyatt!

     You may think I sound cynical, perhaps. But I don’t think so. I think if you read these boards and other things in general, there isn’t a whole lot of incentive, societally or legally, for a guy to pursue ‘relationships’ earnestly. As I read it, the odds of success are considerably less than 50/50 (hell, CA’s divorce rate exceeds 70%; likely non-marriage relationships fail at the same rate or more). So why worry about seeking someone else for your happiness? Seek your own, and you’ll be freer, likely more successful as you move through life. I also think that increasing numbers of guys feel the same way I do, which I would find alarming if I were a woman of similar age.

     Oh, and we’re friends precisely because I’m honest with her.

102. cinnamon Apr 21st 2008 at 12:45 pm 102

     I see. So here’s where we part in our attitudes…
     In a way, I’m glad I’m in Europe.

103. vino Apr 21st 2008 at 01:27 pm 103

     “I see. So here’s where we part in our attitudes”

     I take it you don’t like what I wrote. Sounds like it wasn’t the answer you expected. It also touches on several other threads on here. Believe me, I wish it were more like the idealized idea of love & relationships we are imbued with. In the real world, it’s not. I’m just adjusting my actions to give me the most freedom in light of the world I see, objectively and subjectively. Is there a problem with that?

     Care to elaborate on what your attitude is?

104. cinnamon Apr 21st 2008 at 02:41 pm 104

     Well, expected or not expected… In the view of your previous posts, I kind of expected. It seems like you heartily encourage women to take initiative, but you’d push away a one which would take it with you.

     As I said, I have my experience with initiating contact and my stance is that it is better if the man takes the lead. My argument is a little bit connected with your reasoning but not quite the same. Giving the fact that a man has a lot of freedom to lose and a lot of responsibility to take on (and this is not such a modern phenomenon as it appears at this blog, I would say that the “loosing freedom” by men appears to me as one of the most universal in time, how should I call it, issues? connected with relationships) I would never pursue or agree to a relationship with a man who is not absolutely sure that this is what he wants. No matter how crazy about him I would be. I believe that any initiating or pushing whatsoever can only lead to problems later. I think if a man does not feel ready for a relationship, no power can force him to it. Better stay away. So I also do strongly support you in your ”dating hiatus”. I granted myself a similar period a few years ago (only that I called it “going cold turkey”) and it worked fine. Better than I thought, in fact. I will not elaborate any more on this, though.

     Bottom line is I do believe in relationships. I live in the same world as you do and I do have eyes. When I look around I see plenty of couples. When I have a chance to observe them for a while I always realize none of them has a relationship that I would find good for me and feel good in. But my conclusion from this fact is that this is how it should be. Because just like it is in my own hands how I shape my career, how I maintain relationships with those friends that I have and how I get new ones, so is it in my hands to find a man whom I’ll respect and who’ll respect me. I’ve met a few men in my life that I don’t think high of, but at the same time I’ve met plenty of great guys and I’m still meeting, so I’ve managed to keep my ideals safe and warm so far. I cannot imagine being with a man who is not at the same time my best friend.

105. Selena Apr 21st 2008 at 03:22 pm 105

     vino–

     Feeling the way you do, why do you write so “extensively” on a dating blog? You are happy with yourself, and being single, and you don’t trust most women. So why do you spend so much time (while you’re multitasking) expounding on why men (meaning you) don’t want relationships? What purpose does it serve? Wouldn’t you be happier out enjoying your friends, your dog? You seem to be getting something out of being “anti-relationship” day after day after day. Why are you bothering? This wouldn’t seem to be the ideal venue for your personal views. A waste of time, one might say.

106. Eda Apr 21st 2008 at 04:02 pm 106

     Selena,

     I think you may not have received the memo, but we are not allowed to ask the seemingly anti-dating/relationship men why they spend time contributing to this website. I’ve posed this question to several of them and I’ve gotten the smack down for asking such a personal question!

     The really weird thing is for me, at least, is that I actually can empathize with their weariness of dating/relationships because sometimes dating is sooooooo not fun. I honestly do have more fun going out with my good friends, playing with my dog and cats, and just doing things by myself. I too love the freedom of not having to check in with another person regarding what I want to do and when I want to do it. Yet, I still would like to have a special guy in my life — not for money, not for marriage, not for kids, but just to be a good friend and lover.

     As I have mentioned in another post, when I have wanted to complain that men only want sex, I realized that it’s because when I was really honest with myself, it’s because that’s actually what I was offering. This may not be the case for other women, but for me, when something keeps going wrong, I tend to look at myself to see what’s my part in it. I don’t only blame men. I think lots of men and women, don’t really want to take a look at themselves to see how they may or may not be playing a significant role in not getting what they want. Self reflection can be painful, but also liberating too.

107. Selena Apr 21st 2008 at 04:56 pm 107

     Cinnamon-
     You wrote some things today that reflect my views as well. There are a few men walking the earth I’ve known that I don’t think highly of. But they are individuals, I don’t carry my feelings towards them over to half the population.

     I’ve also known some couples whose relationship I most certainly do not envy–I wonder if they stay together “just to be able to say they *have* someone”, rather than out of love and a genuine desire to be a part of each other’s lives.

     And I also feel to my core what you wrote: “I cannot imagine being with a man who is not at the same time my best friend.” If that isn’t true, what is the point? And why would I ever agree to be in a relationship with someone who didn’t feel the same way? Let alone pursue a man who obviously was not interested in such with me? It makes no sense in terms of my sense of self and my place in the world.

108. Selena Apr 21st 2008 at 05:21 pm 108

     Hi Eda.

     Okay, so I got the memo, but chose to ignore it today. My bad. We apparently are much alike. I’m not discontent being single and after a breakup last year, I haven’t even been out there actively ‘looking’ (what a concept), so to speak. But as you wrote, “Yet, I still would like to have a special guy in my life — not for money, not for marriage, not for kids, but just to be a good friend and lover. ” I don’t see such as a ‘need’, but rather an enhancement, don’t you?

     My own self reflection has led to the belief that yes, in some cases when I found I made poor choices in partners, it had to do with where I was with myself at the time. Funny though how that comes with hindsight. So blind to insight and all the violently waving red flags in the beginning. Sigh.

109. hunter Apr 21st 2008 at 08:59 pm 109

     To vino,

     you said, “sex is easy to get.” Try to fill me(and like a million other men) in on that……be as direct and precise as you can……

110. Hat Pines Apr 22nd 2008 at 08:28 am 110

     vino,

     if sex was easy to get, we would not have any virgins running around loose. I am a thirty-year-old virgin and it is my greaterst shame. I fear that people around me will find out and think less of me.

111. sheseizereason Apr 22nd 2008 at 11:03 am 111

     Selena –

     I got the memo and still choose to second your questions to vino. It just seems weird to me that someone who claims he has so much going for him would feel the incentive to invest time in lengthy exposition against relationships …on a blog about dating and relationships. As I’ve previously pointed out, it doesn’t add up.

     With such a rich life, is spending time here the smart thing to do with your time?

112. vino Apr 22nd 2008 at 12:25 pm 112

     I’ve some thoughts. Under water at present. Will post soon.

113. vino Apr 22nd 2008 at 02:33 pm 113

     For Evan’s sake, I’m going to break this up into 3 or 4 parts, & post them a few hours or a day apart.

     Selena,

     While I am out of the game, so to speak, I don’t foreclose the possibility of altering my view in the future. I know enough to know I don’t know everything. I write more than most to be clear. Quick, nonsensical blurbs are not my way.

     cinn:

     Whether *I* would push someone away is a highly specific thing, not what a normal guy would likely do. Keep in mind that the shoe’s on the other foot most of the time (guy to pursue). I encourage someone of either sex to take initiative if they are interested in someone.

     I agree with your stance that re: initiating contact and it is better if the man takes the lead. Not because of any great psychological analysis, but because that’s what most women expect, and what most men are ‘trained’ to do.

     Sheseize wrote:

     “It just seems weird to me that someone who claims he has so much going for him would feel the incentive to invest time in lengthy exposition against relationships …on a blog about dating and relationships. As I’ve previously pointed out, it doesn’t add up.
     With such a rich life, is spending time here the smart thing to do with your time?”

     You can think it “doesn’t add up.” However, what brought me here was a growing frustration about the whole process. I suspect most guys who read & post are in a same or similar boat.

     I’m not against relationships, just the current state of the vast majority of them. I think you see many guys expressing this. Good news is I can choose something else.

     One of the reasons I haven’t posted anything marginally personal until now are the above posts by Eda & sheeseize and the like. Not picking on either, but now they seem to intimate I shouldn’t post because I may hold opinions that are different, nay opposite from theirs. Last I checked, this board isn’t an echo chamber or an Oprah show, and different opinions were welcome. Also notice how no one talk about the subject matter any more, but whether vino’s ‘against relationships.’

     I read verbosity vigilance about such ‘ad hominem’ attacks. I’m not going to make a big issue out of it, but this is an example of one. That’s why I don’t generally divulge anything – posters who don’t agree want to go after me, not the substance of what’s said.

     More to come…The good stuff.

114. Eda Apr 22nd 2008 at 04:07 pm 114

     Vino,

     I have never suggested that you shouldn’t post to this site because you have different ideas. As I wrote once before, I just don’t understand why you post when it does appear that you are not interested in dating.

     One thing I have realized is that some people just want to share their views and opinions without the specific intent of helping others do better in the dating world. And while that isn’t what I am seeking or what my intent is, it is as a legitimate reason as any other for coming to the website. So, I will no longer ask people who seem to be anti relationship why they are here. They are here because they are. Period. And even if I don’t understand their motivation, I just might learn something important anyway.

115. sheseizereason Apr 22nd 2008 at 05:34 pm 115

     V-

     I didn’t intimate an opinion about whether or not you should post. Even if I had, it certainly wouldn’t be to avoid opinions contrary to mine.

     I firstly don’t find facts about your personal life particularly relevant to the discussion. Secondly, because you self-profess to have such a wonderful life, it seems incongruous with the amount of time you spend here.

     My main point, in a nutshell, is that I’m having a hard time buying your press release about yourself.

     If you choose to take my observation of this inconsistency as a personal attack, then so be it.

116. vino Apr 22nd 2008 at 08:24 pm 116

     cinn: “Bottom line is I do believe in relationships.”

     I totally respect that. I think they can work, but the ways *I* think they can work most people would reject, if for any reason but that they are too equal. They include no cohabitation, no marriage, pay equally. I think that the dating/mating game is one where the odds of success for a guy aren’t even 50/50, let alone favorable. I base this on 3 basic ideas, societal expectations, sex, and the legal climate. The common thread through all of them is a lack of equality, or power imbalance.

     Societal Expectations:

     I wrote above, and other men have written about the existing double standards, so I don’t want to repeat all of them. Let’s just say I think it’s patently unfair to expect men (or women, if you’re a guy) to do things for you that you aren’t willing to do for him. Examples are above and in other threads, but include initiating contact, expecting men to pay for darn near everything, etc. (See Should Women Settle/Women Who Earn More Than Men/Where are Cute, Funny… & others) If ladies can do everything men can do in society it necessarily includes the dating/marriage area also. I don’t think you can pick the rights you like and ignore the responsibilities that come with them. Equal means equal 24/7, not when you feel like it and it benefits you the most.

     Spurring this was a look at my Quicken & seeing how much $$ I wasted over the last 2 years (5 figures) on dating & what else I could have done with it. Not to mention my time.

     Going with the money theme also, I’ve reviewed this board and I think it’s pretty clear that women seek and prefer guys who earn more than they (no matter how much they themselves earn), and the more the better. It’s also very (most) important in the legal arena later. It’s better discussed in other threads, but I like some of verbosity’s writing on it (sarcastic yet logical). As I wrote above… look at match.com, it’s shockingly prevalent. They why’s are better discussed elsewhere, but verbosity’s right – it’s about options. By seeking guys who earn more, women have options. My issue is that guys (me) don’t. We’re to keep earning for her options. Simply put, where’s the benefit to me? I don’t see it.

     Particularly when it comes to marriage & co-habitation this sucks. You end up subsidizing someone else lifestyle, while simultaneously reducing your own. Nonsensical. This is a huge problem particularly in divorce re: alimony.

     The bottom line is that in the dating game, by having to do all of the initiating, number getting, calling, planning chauffering, and paying, guys are in a TERRIBLE power position, like a serf waiting on royalty. It’s completely unequal, and this lack of equality is no way to start any relationship that is supposed to be ‘equal.’ No one’s saying men need to be in a superior power position, just an equal one. I also think that women on some level don’t respect a guy who does all of this doting. Again, where’s the benefit to me? Women who truly are equal and expect to give as much as they receive materially & emotionally are truly few and far between, in my experience.

117. vino Apr 22nd 2008 at 09:17 pm 117

     Eda wrote: “I have never suggested that you shouldn’t post to this site because you have different ideas.”

     - Didn’t say you specifically did. But you are aware that by bringing it up you do, in effect, indirectly say it.

     Eda also wrote: “As I wrote once before, I just don’t understand why you post when it does appear that you are not interested in dating.”

     - You actually touched on the opposite of why – “One thing I have realized is that some people just want to share their views and opinions without the specific intent of helping others do better in the dating world.”

     It IS helping others do better in the dating world. It just may not be helping according to your rules & expectations of the dating world. A different take, if you will. If one thing I write helps a guy reject a goldigger (for ex.) or a woman be clearer about her birth control practices (for ex.) to they can make better decisions, then it’s worth it. As I indicate above with more to follow, I think the expectations/paradigms and power of dating and relationships are out of whack with today’s reality, for both sexes.

118. vino Apr 22nd 2008 at 09:39 pm 118

     sheseiz:

     “I firstly don’t find facts about your personal life particularly relevant to the discussion.”

     - I do agree it’s off-topic. But I assume you read my previous postings, and was answering something cinn asked. As I see no guile in anything she’s previously written, I answered. Honest dialouge was positive, or so I thought.

     “Secondly, because you self-profess to have such a wonderful life, it seems incongruous with the amount of time you spend here.”

     - The amount I time I may or may not spend here I would think is not your concern. That type of comment is specifically why I’ve refrained from divulging any personal information. This is specifically WHY Evan has chastised people before and even began a whole thread on it. No mention on the substance of anything I said, I see.

     “My main point, in a nutshell, is that I’m having a hard time buying your press release about yourself.

     - Nice sarcasm. Not a press release. See above.

     “If you choose to take my observation of this inconsistency as a personal attack, then so be it.”

     - So be it indeed. Actually you made several ‘observations’ as noted herein. Nothing like attacking the messenger because you don’t like the message. Funny thing is you were notably absent from any discussion until someone offers something personal, then you show up like pigeons on crumbs at a pier. Curious.

119. cinnamon Apr 22nd 2008 at 10:22 pm 119

     vino,
     within a couple of days you managed to gain a friend and lose a friend now.

120. Evan Marc Katz Apr 23rd 2008 at 06:35 am 120

     Faithful readers,

     You may notice a pattern.

     Intelligent opinionated male (Verbosity, Deathslayer, Vino) gets on message boards, expresses a thoughtful, if somewhat gender-biased opinion, gets insulted for expressing said opinion, retorts with multiple leeeeengthy posts, and the discussion gets hijacked into a personal back and forth that lasts for days and eventually drives the man off. Well, I like having male readers, I like having different opinions, and I would really appreciate it if you could tolerate your respective differences.

     Women: Feel free to disagree with men’s opinions by expressing the strength of your own views. Just lay off the personal attacks. Vino is here for the same reason most of us are here – this is interesting stuff, and it applies to men and women universally.
     Men: Stop responding at length to those who disagree with you. It only prolongs a pointless argument. Oh, and keep it simple, where possible. Everyone here should be able to make a point in a couple of short paragraphs without any infighting or acrimony.

     With great love and respect,

     The Management

121. Boudica Apr 23rd 2008 at 07:23 am 121

     i am a 49 year old woman, intelligent, well educated, very attractive, widowed, and i am sick of the way the women in this thread have responded to vino. i agree with him–much more so that i agree with any of the women or evan. i have looked back at vino’s other posts on other threads, and i agree with him there, also. vino, keep speaking your mind. there ARE women who agree with you, we ARE out there…….obviously not on this site, but women who attempt to see how double standards benefit US sometimes DO exist. keep speaking the TRUTH.

122. vino Apr 23rd 2008 at 09:59 am 122

     Actually, I’d like to correct the record re: something Evan wrote. Some of my earlier posts were a bit long. Sorry. But they were not in response to being insulted. Cinn was asking good, clarifying questions regarding some earlier posts. I was answering. The insults only just began.

     I’d also like to point out both sexes have gender biased opinions. I don’t date men & can’t speak to what it’s like to date them & the converse also applies. Assuming no gay/bi posters are here…

     Oh, and I tolerate everyone’s opinions…it just isn’t reciprocated very often.

     cinn:

     Sorry you feel that way. I suspect you, like I, will get over it rapidly.

123. cinnamon Apr 23rd 2008 at 11:32 am 123

     vino,

     Thanks for support. As you noticed yourself none of my posts were intended to insult or attack you. In fact, if I hadn’t spot one of your comments (to the Should Women Settle thread), which also reflected my view, I would have probably never felt motivated to comment on this blog at all.

     As mentioned before, I’m European and I have little insight in the “reality” which many posters here refer to. Therefore I will limit my participation from now on. Also because I do not feel I actually meet the target audience profile.

     Just to respond to your last topic-related comment. My perception of the value of man-woman relationship and family/kids in general is rather clear. I value them highly. I would not pursue the living-apart-together model simply because I do not believe this is a remedy for all the confusion in the dating/mating/family area caused by the social changes, mainly feminist movement, as you noticed yourself. So here is where we part.

124. vino Apr 23rd 2008 at 11:39 am 124

     Thanks Boudica. You’re one in a million. Literally.

125. vino Apr 23rd 2008 at 03:02 pm 125

     cinn:

     Glad something I said spurred comment. However, sorry if what I’ve said will cause limitation by you.

     Philosophically, I agree with your view of man-woman relationship and family/kids value, though I don’t want kids. Sadly & realistically, I don’t see the societal or legal incentive to foster such relationships. The opposite in fact occurs. It’s getting Lord of the Flies-like. I may change my mind on this at some point, but that’s what I see now. The only thing I see I can do for protection is do not date/marry at all; or if so, do the living-apart-together model.

     That said, I’m putting the pieces in place to move out of the gold old USA in the next couple of years. Perhaps we’ll run into each other. You’ll know it’s me…I’ll be the one wearing the “Don’t Marry” t-shirt. LOL.

     That’s a joke, btw.

126. cinnamon Apr 23rd 2008 at 08:06 pm 126

     vino,
     Realistically, I do have a picture in my mind of all the homes when the whole family is terrorized by an alcoholic or abusive man day in day out. I do realise there are men who leave their spouses in debt, there are men who exchange them for a newer model when they hit the mid-life crisis. I know that if I happen to fall for a commitment-phobic man, then even though I would have the looks of Angelina Jolie and the personality of Mother Theresa, he will keep fault finding until he pushes me away in the best case or leaves me as a nervous wrack in the worst case.
     However, it is my philosophical attitude and the example of all the good couples that I have around me that keeps me believing both in relationships and family. Though I must admit I had a very long period of doubt in my life, so I fully understand you.
     Where I come from, the late 60ies was the period when women (arm in arm with men) were fighting for more important (in my personal opinion) rights than the right to a one night stand.

127. vino Apr 24th 2008 at 10:21 am 127

     cinn,

     I do see your point about seeing the worst in people & applaud your optimism. My point is that the things I mention as drawbacks are very widely acknowledged as the majority of circumstances, at least 70% or more. That means I have to sort through at least 7 of ten to get to the final three to even see if they are ‘alcoholic or abusive’ are willing to trade in for newer, higher earning model, nags, cajoles, etc,,, in the remaining three. I just don’t see all of this sifting & sorting as worth the time now.

     Even if as you mentioned, I meet Angelina Jolie-like looks who’s sweet and nice, the simple reality is that if we do marry and she gets bored later or is ‘unfulfilled,’ she can bail & take 1/2 of what I’ve worked for. No questions asked. No wrongdoing on my part. There’s a built-in disincentive to stay together via the legal system, if there ever was one.

     CA divorce rate exceeds 70%. You see all of these happy couples around you. 7 out of 10 couples won’t be together in a year. And women initiate over 70% of all divorces (& relationships by proxy, I’d think). I think the odds suck. It’s that simple.

     So why play the odds? Play a different game entirely. Or don’t play, as it were. I think what you see by deathslayer & some other posters reflects this. Until the odds improve, they won’t play.

     “Where I come from, the late 60ies . . .fighting for more important (in my personal opinion) rights than the right to a one night stand.”

     - Agreed. But that right to a ONS was part of the fight too. It freed both sexes.

     Stay optimistic.

128. cinnamon Apr 24th 2008 at 12:03 pm 128

     
     “But that right to a ONS was part of the fight too”
     I meant fight for democracy, not the feminist movement

     I kind of like discussing with you, and I really do honestly emphatise with a situation of any person, either man or woman, who have invested their time, resources and feelings in a relationship, and are being left for no valid reason simply because their partner was bored and divorce is just so easy to get. I would see this sad situation more as an outcome of the extreme (and still growing) individualism and secularisation, though. And this is my philosophical background for rejecting the living-apart-together model.

     But I can also see we come from two very different worlds, and probably if I mentioned that my biggest reservation regarding the institution of marriage has always been the fear of becoming economically dependent on someone else you wouldn’t probably believe it .

     Even though I do have a lot of understanding for the issues that you and some other male posters raise here, being a relatively young woman I can see quite a dilemma in the requirements towards women that I’ve noticed reading this blog which are in a way conflicting for me. And here I mean a requirement to be caring, nurturing, committed, not career-driven, not challenging on one hand, and a requirement to be economically and emotionally self-sufficient, independent, not looking for any kind of support from a man on the other and.

     to be continued…

129. cinnamon Apr 24th 2008 at 12:21 pm 129

     I think why this recent return to the golddigging and “equality” topic struck me, is the fact that I remember very clearly the arguments raised in one of the earlier threads about women who are married to their work and therefore not meeting their (equally career-driven) partners’ needs. That time I thought: “Wow, there is something in what this guy is saying. Can a relationship between two people who are both highly committed to their careers really work out? Could I compromise on my career for the sake of the relationship?”

     I’m optimistic. But I’m also extremely puzzled.

130. vino Apr 24th 2008 at 01:12 pm 130

     cinn:

     I’ll admit that it can appear that there is a tension between goldigger avoidance and what you put as being economically independent.

     I’d like to give a hearty thumbs up to your reservations about marriage vis-a-vis economic dependence. But I don’t think that the concepts are necessarily at loggerheads.

     I think there’s a problem going in when the earnings are significantly disparate, particularly from the marriage front. Say you make $50k/yr and your husband makes $250k/yr. By virtue of just being with him, your standard of living increases. This is particularly a problem at divorce time, when the lesser earner is entitled to continuing payments after divorce to continue that standard of living! It;s akin to giving a beggar $20 once a month out of heart’s goodness, then being obligated to do it because he got used to it. In no-fault divorce, this is clearly an incentive to marry up economically.

     More to follow later, perhaps tomorrow.

131. cinnamon Apr 24th 2008 at 01:42 pm 131

     Looking forward to it.
     Still, I’m a person who likes to look at the “big picture”, so please let’s also take into account the whole thread about Successful Women and all the traits that $250k/yr men are looking for in their partners mentionned in that thread.
     My intuition is telling me that just like many men are puzzled by the confilicting/unclear expectations that they are presented with from womens’ side, there is also planty of women who would do their best to satisfy the expectations/needs of their men and are maybe puzzled just like me.

132. Eda Apr 24th 2008 at 09:21 pm 132

     I’d like to provide a different perspective on the men supporting women idea. Many posters often see this set up as all good for the woman and really really bad for the man…she is just draining him of his hard earned money. However, as has been hinted at but not expounded on, the men who take care of women do get something out of it and it is often power and control as I will reveal through my personal experience.

     Many years ago when I was young and poor as I was fresh out of college, I went on vacation with my boyfriend who was 9 years my senior and well established in his career. While we never talked about our incomes, I was pretty certain that he made more money than I did. So, he asked me to go on vacation with him and all I had to pay for was my airplane (which was all I could afford) — he would take care of everything else. I was excited because I rarely went on vacations.

     When we got to our destination, he made it very clear that since he was paying for vacation, I pretty much had to have sex when he wanted and as frequently as he wanted. And, I had to wear the outfits that he wanted. Because I was young and foolish, I kind of felt obligated to do what he wanted. I was resentful, but still I did what he wanted. After I came back from vacation, I realized that having a man “take care” of me wasn’t all it was cracked up to be, and I vowed that I would never, ever be financially dependent on a man. No man would ever tell me what to wear or when and how often to have sex. No man would ever have control over me in any way shape or form.

     Now my example may be extreme, but there are plenty of women for whom being financially dependent or taken care of comes at a price…a high price. While many women are willing to accept that price, many woman are not. So, just as there are men who want to avoid golddiggers, there are women who want to maintain their financial autonomy.

     To be clear, I am not saying that all men who take care of women behave in a controlling manner, but enough do. So, I think it’s only fair to point out that men do get something out of being the provider…it isn’t all one-sided in favor of women.

133. vino Apr 25th 2008 at 07:29 am 133

     So my basic theory is that women, no matter how much they earn, seek guys who make more. Not all, but vast majority. This is where the problem starts IMHO.

     This fits in with the suer- successful men & women in an interesting way. I think verbosity wrote that it necessarily mandates a very small pool of very successful men for the very successful women. That’s the first thing. Then, as I noted, successful people of both sexes necessarily spend a lot of time being successful… meetings, conference calls, travel. The time factor is an impediment.

     Also, the personality traits are often the same – hyper, aggressive, restless, even when not ‘on the clock.’ My anectdotal observation is that women generally have a harder time leaving work at work, so it comes home (PLENTY of guys do this too). So in those few time you are together, she’s more likely to be restless, hyper, still focused on work, etc. Here is the difference as I see it – As a guy, I don’t find that attractive, or conducive to a good relationship. There’s no room for warmth, or loving. It’s like being with an aggressive guy. Many women think men should like how successful they are, etc, because that’s what they like in men. It simply isn’t so.

     Do I have an easy answer? No. Are there some very successful, warm loving, career women out there? Yes.If not already taken, they’ve focused on the guys who make even more than they, and have maybe landed them already.

134. vino Apr 25th 2008 at 07:43 am 134

     This relates to the whole marriage/money trap.

     Had a brilliant conversation with a friend last night. He spoke with an expert on cognitive dissonance. This expert was hired by Costco to evaluate the success of Costco’s policy of allowing flat screen TV’s to be returned at any time. His answer is that it would be a terrible policy.

     I don’t recall every detail of what was relayed to me, but the short answer is that people unless they are given a clear boundary, a clear end point for such a decision, they are unhappy, and will rationalize some way out of the choice. Ex – you buy a BMW. It’s a great car. You’re happy with it. But then you see the comparable Mercedes, and it’s actually a little better looking, more amenities, better gas mileage, more room. You like the M-B more. You’d be immediately unhappy with the BMW if you could easily return it tomorrow, get your money back & get the M-B. But, as we all know, it doesn’t work that way with cars.

     But that’s how marriage works now with no-fault, it struck me. It’s easy to bail to trade up for the M-B, so it’s easy to rationalize that you’re not ‘fulfilled’ or ‘happy’ or any other silly reason like that. Interesting psychology. I know very little of it, but saw that parallel.

135. cinnamon Apr 25th 2008 at 11:00 am 135

     “But that’s how marriage works now with no-fault, it struck me. It’s easy to bail to trade up for the M-B, so it’s easy to rationalize that you’re not ‘fulfilled’ or ‘happy’ or any other silly reason like that.”

     This is an interesting observation. I just dare to claim that if this is the case, then if applies equally to both sexes…
     I would also suspect, that this may be the case for people for whom marriage in itself has no value.
     I was actually suprised how many people on his blog claimed they wish to wait with sex until marriage. Wow. This is certainly not a majority of the population, but for sure an example (one of many) of people who believe that marriage has a value.

     Coming back to the discrepancies in earnings and women having the incentive to marry up economically. I do recall an argument saying that very successful $250k/yr men are looking for partners who are not nearly as accomplished professionally. And that they do it on purpose. So apparently there must be some mutual interest in such a constellation.

136. vino Apr 25th 2008 at 11:43 am 136

     Have to view it differently, Eda.

     If you look at match. com, one of the areas is “turn-ons.” If you do a random sampling, I suspect you find “power” “boldness/assertiveness” in 85% or more of the answers. Simply put, women like and seek that characteristic in general.

     This is going to sound way cold but – You also have to ask what he’s getting for his money if you want to be taken care of? Sex is necessarily a part of that. You may think he was too extreme, but remember YOU sought the person in the power position who could give you things. That’s part & parcel of such a decision.

     Eda wrote: “So, just as there are men who want to avoid golddiggers, there are women who want to maintain their financial autonomy.”

     - I agree. They should. And in doing so should contribute equally in every way, including financially. Most don’t however. They want autonomy & to continue receiving… Can’t do both.

137. hunter Apr 25th 2008 at 06:09 pm 137

     To Eda,

     I agree with you, young women do get controlled by men.(this frustrates some women) Although, it seems more like a young womans mind, was built to follow a man. Don’t they say that is one of god’s biggest jokes, just to keep this place populated?

138. Eda Apr 25th 2008 at 08:29 pm 138

     Vino,
     I really don’t know why, but your view of women makes me sad. I don’t have statistics or studies that I can quote, but I truly believe that there are lots of women who don’t see men as meal tickets and who would be more than happy to contribute equally (emotionally, financially, sexually, and intellectually) in a relationship.

139. cinnamon Apr 25th 2008 at 11:22 pm 139

     Guys, just to sum up what I see here. As I understand, you’re looking for women who are caring for you, nurturing to you, committed to you, not career-driven, not challenging, not stressed, working less hours than you and greeting you with a home-made dinner when you come back home tired after your 12-hr working day.
     These same women shall contribute equally to the home budget which means that they shall earn the same as you, and in order to do so they need to have highly paid 60-hr per week jobs and be fully committed to them. Also they should not expect any behavior from men that could be perceived as a masculine equivalent of caring for them, being nurturing to them or being committed to them.

     Is this a correct understanding?

140. vino Apr 26th 2008 at 06:21 am 140

     cinn wrote:

     “I just dare to claim that if this is the case, then if applies equally to both sexes…”

     - You betcha. I agree. But please keep in mind that ladies do initiate over 70% of divorces. So that in practice doesn’t seem to balance out…

     “I would also suspect, that this may be the case for people for whom marriage in itself has no value.”

     - Maybe in some cases. Maybe not. I think that the ability to easily exit, and profit from it (often, though not every time) is one where the tail wags the dog. One may value marriage and therefore wait till then for sex, but once the daily marriage grind (see Lori Gottleib) sets in, the easy exit rationalizations begin. I think you see this in people who married in heir 20’s, and felt trapped by 30’s – todays ‘cougars’ and guys who go after the young girls. Point is the ease to exit creates the unhappiness.

     ” . . .very successful $250k/yr (& up) men are looking for partners who are not nearly as accomplished professionally. And that they do it on purpose. So apparently there must be some mutual interest in such a constellation.”

     – Not to say they are necessarily ‘looking’ for less-accomplished partners. I think it’s a compromise. But when you look at dating a go-getter lady, she doesn’t have the time to be with you, physically or emotionally. Or, as Leykis puts it, “she’s not there to eff me when I want” either. Plus, as I and other posters have posited, many very successful women simply don’t possess the characteristics many very successful guys want.

     My experience is that I and most very successful guys I know want women who will be available, who will be warm and ‘present’ when with us, and, to eff us when we’re around too The women who really have the time to be this way are less successful, career-wise, more often than not. So that pairing of successful guys and less successful women occurs.

     But it’s a compromise for both. He compromises and understands that for someone to be there for him, they’re going to be earning far less, so he will have to deal with a goldigger problem or accept that he’s going to have to support her. Most guys are raised to expect to do this, so you see more willing to do it (support). The woman, on the other hand, gets monetary benefit – homes, vacations, cars, etc, that she would not have otherwise received simply by earning it through work’s earnings. Thing is, he’s also willing to compromise & lower his standard of living for this arrangement…

     Here’s where it gets funny for women – women, even the very successful ones, still seek men who earn more. They’re very happy to buy into the above compromise, yet they, for the most part HATE the prospect of supporting a guy who makes less. Because hey, they’re the ones who are supposed to be supported, even if they make $250k… So they seek guys who make 2-3x what they do, which are few men indeed. Why? Because if she decides not to work, etc, she doesn’t want her standard of living to drop from what it otherwise would be, so it necessitates someone who earns 2x more, at least.

     A big difference between her and the guy who’s successful is, she’s unwilling to compromise & lower her standard of living for any arrangement. Not true in all cases but the VAST majority of ‘em.

141. A-L Apr 26th 2008 at 09:12 am 141

     I find it interesting how often the person earning $250k is popped up in various threads, and decided to do a little research.

     Under $25k 25.2%
     $25-35k 11.5%
     $35-50k 14.5%
     $50-75k 18.2%
     $75-100k 11.3%
     $100-150k 11.5%
     $150-200k 4.0%
     $200-250k 1.5%
     $250k + 1.9%

     The above is a breakdown of percentage of the population that earns a specific income. Unfortunately, it’s by household, so it’s not an exact break down by individual salaries, but you get the general idea. And how much of those six figure salaries are coming from households where it’s a 2-earner family? (Statistics come from the US Census’ website at http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032007/hhinc/new06_000.htm)

     If two guys were equally sweet, funny, intelligent, sensitive, good-looking, etc, then yeah, most every woman is going to take the one with a higher salary. I’m sure men seeking a partner would as well. If a guy bores you to tears, however, he could be Bill Gates and he still wouldn’t get a second date, much less a spouse. (Just went out with a guy the other night who fit this description; he asked me out, I paid for myself, and could hardly wait to go home ALONE. Now my post is also relevant to the the original topic. )

142. A-L Apr 26th 2008 at 09:41 am 142

     Many men (particularly from Central and South American, Asian, and African countries) expect to have the woman cook, clean, take care of the children, etc, regardless of whether or not the woman works. They also want to be the ones deciding what to watch on tv, what to do on vacations, what their spouse can do without them, etc. They often expect this type of control over their spouse, regardless of how much money the man or the woman makes. I grew up in such a household. It’s one of the reasons why I think it’s important for couples to discuss gender roles and expectations, and how/if they think that should change once they marry or have children. And though I mentioned men from several international locations, this also holds true for many American men, particular ones with conservative beliefs. So though these men may (though not necessarily) earn more money than their spouse, they’re getting a whole heck of a lot out of it, and that’s not including any possible sexual aspects to it.

     And not to sound too pessimistic, I’m one of those optimists that believes in the sanctity of marriage, and views it as a union for mutual comfort, aid, and pleasure. (I’m also one of those that cinnamon alluded to from the other thread.) And I’m not asking for my husband to have a $250k salary either.

143. hunter Apr 26th 2008 at 03:08 pm 143

     To Cinnamon,

     You said, Just to sum up….I disagree with you, the average man is not that complicated. All we need is a good recliner, a big screen, food and sex…..LOL!….

144. vino Apr 26th 2008 at 04:03 pm 144

     For cinn’s #139:

     I think you’re misstating what I am saying.

     ” . . . not career-driven”

     - I’m not saying that. I’m saying that broadly speaking, most don’t have the previously mentioned warmth, nurturing traits, etc, and don’t have the time to be with us. There are some where it works. Great. As a guy or girl, you have to understand that your very successful partner makes work their first priority and you somewhere else down the list. If you accept this, fine. My point is that more women are willing to accept it (be with successful guy) than the reverse. I’m further saying that very successful women don’t want to be with guys the same or less successful than they.

     “not challenging”

     - This is obvious to see, difficult to explain sometimes. I love a smart woman and enjoy intellectual debate and stimulation. However the context I and most guys I’ve read here indicate something besides that. I don’t want to be challenged on my wardrobe, who my friends are, where we go for dinner, the filet vs. NY strip, etc, etc etc… I don’t want to challenged, critiqued & cajoled in my personal life about stupid shit. If someone tries it, they are gone. Fast.

     “not stressed”

     - I never said this. My point is that BOTH parties should make an effort to have their personal time together as bereft of stress as possible. A haven, if you will. Not always doable, but should be a goal.

     “working less hours than you and greeting you with a home-made dinner when you come back home tired after your 12-hr working day.”

     - When did I ever say that? I said that very successful guys tend to gravitate towards women who have more flexibility to be with them. Never said anything about the dinner thing. Besides, most women don’t cook anymore anyway

     “These same women shall contribute equally to the home budget…”

     - When did I say that in relation to the very successful/less successful discussion? I didn’t. I said less successful women with more successful men get a definite monetary benefit. Their standard of living is raised. However, in general very successful women are loath to do the same for less successful men, and usually don’t.

     “… which means that they shall earn the same as you, and in order to do so they need to have highly paid 60-hr per week jobs and be fully committed to them.”

     - DIdn’t say that at all. With that said, though, my point is that if guys applied the same financial standards to women that women apply to guys, you’d be correct. Fair is fair & equal is equal, no?

     “Also they should not expect any behavior from men that could be perceived as a masculine equivalent of caring for them, being nurturing to them or being committed to them.”

     - When did I say that?

     “Is this a correct understanding?”

     - Nope. It overstated & misstated several things. See above.
     

145. A-L Apr 26th 2008 at 06:41 pm 145

     I posted this before, but for some reason it didn’t go up.

     I find it interesting how often the person earning $250k is popped up in various threads, and decided to do a little research.

     Under $25k 25.2%
     $25-35k 11.5%
     $35-50k 14.5%
     $50-75k 18.2%
     $75-100k 11.3%
     $100-150k 11.5%
     $150-200k 4.0%
     $200-250k 1.5%
     $250k + 1.9%

     The above is a breakdown of percentage of the population that earns a specific income. Unfortunately, it’s by household, so it’s not an exact break down by individual salaries, but you get the general idea. And how much of those six figure salaries are coming from households where it’s a 2-earner family? (Statistics come from the US Census’ website at http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032007/hhinc/new06_000.htm)

     If two guys were equally sweet, funny, intelligent, sensitive, good-looking, etc, then yeah, most every woman is going to take the one with a higher salary. I’m sure men seeking a partner would as well. If a guy bores you to tears, however, he could be Bill Gates and he still wouldn’t get a second date, much less a spouse. (Just went out with a guy the other night who fit this description; he asked me out, I paid for myself, and could hardly wait to go home ALONE. Now my post is also relevant to the the original topic. )

146. A-L Apr 26th 2008 at 06:45 pm 146

     Here’s a post of mine that didn’t go up before.

     I find it interesting how often the person earning $250k is popped up in various threads, and decided to do a little research.

     Under $25k 25.2%
     $25-35k 11.5%
     $35-50k 14.5%
     $50-75k 18.2%
     $75-100k 11.3%
     $100-150k 11.5%
     $150-200k 4.0%
     $200-250k 1.5%
     $250k + 1.9%

     The above is a breakdown of percentage of the population that earns a specific income. Unfortunately, it’s by household, so it’s not an exact break down by individual salaries, but you get the general idea. And how much of those six figure salaries are coming from households where it’s a 2-earner family? (Statistics come from the US Census’ website; I’m posting without the link as it appears this post keeps getting deleted and I’m trying to see if this is why.)

     If two guys were equally sweet, funny, intelligent, sensitive, good-looking, etc, then yeah, most every woman is going to take the one with a higher salary. I’m sure men seeking a partner would as well. If a guy bores you to tears, however, he could be Bill Gates and he still wouldn’t get a second date, much less a spouse. (Just went out with a guy the other night who fit this description; he asked me out, I paid for myself, and could hardly wait to go home ALONE. Now my post is also relevant to the the original topic. )

147. cinnamon Apr 27th 2008 at 12:29 am 147

     “Perhaps we’ll run into each other. You’ll know it’s me…I’ll be the one wearing the “Don’t Marry” t-shirt. LOL.”

     LOL, I must have missed this one . I’m afraid in real life we would have never run into each other, because I would run to the hills as soon as I saw you T-shirt and you would not have notice me running because I don’t meet your 5′5″ criteria. LOL

148. cinnamon Apr 27th 2008 at 12:45 pm 148

     vino,
     re: 139. just ignore it. It was posted simultaneously with your 140, sorry.

149. vino Apr 27th 2008 at 02:10 pm 149

     Actually 5′5″ runners fit perfectly. Never said anyone 5′5″ wasn’t for me. Quite the contrary

150. cinnamon Apr 27th 2008 at 10:55 pm 150

     “Actually 5′5″ runners fit perfectly”.
     I’m more petite than that, at least according to my unit converter My point was the “Don’t Marry” t-shirt will make most of women run away faster than the speed of light
     But please don’t take it like I’m challenging anyone on their choice of wardrobe LOL

151. vino Apr 28th 2008 at 06:36 am 151

     A-L:

     I think bringing up households with dual incomes muddies the water. To be clear, I am talking about where an individual man or woman earns a fair to a lot of money, $250k + and up.

     “two guys were equally sweet, funny, intelligent, sensitive, good-looking, etc, then yeah, most every woman is going to take the one with a higher salary.”

     - My point exactly. And most men would be okay with it.

     “I’m sure men seeking a partner would as well.”

     - Different point. My point is the woman with the higher salary would NOT be okay with it as the guy would above. Therefore, it doesn’t matter if the men would want the woman with the higher salary. She wouldn’t want him. Women always trade up in general.

     But you are correct in one respect about the statistics…that in the higher earning category, successful women have few choices, since they are always looking higher & higher within that 1.9% & never in the opposite direction.

152. A-L Apr 28th 2008 at 03:27 pm 152

     Vino,

     I think you missed my point. The HOUSEHOLDS (yes, as you mentioned, there are often multiple breadwinners here) that earn $200k+ is 3.4%. Let’s say that that 1/3 of that group are single males, so 1% of the population. Yeah, it’d be nice to find someone with that kind of salary, but then you get realistic and know the chances of that happening are slim to none. It’s the same way that guys would like to find someone who looks like Jessica Alba. Such people exist, yes. But they’re such a small percentage of the population that guys get realistic and marry the moderately attractive girl-next-door. (See the If Men Like Only Hot Women thread.)

     In terms of womens’ tastes, I think most women require a minimum base salary. This would include the minimum needed to sustain the cheapest lifestyle they would feel comfortable living. (When I say living, the cheapest salary that 1 person could live on comfortably, not supporting both people.) So long as a guy meets that minimum, then anything over it is gravy. Obviously the minimum will vary upon the woman, but I doubt it’s the $250k mark for most, since so few people even know what life is like with that kind of money coming in. Personally, mine’s around $35k and I live in a southern city. That’s less than I make, but a far cry from the 6-figure salaries that some of the men think all women are requiring, or the 6-figure salaries upon which I was raised.

153. A-L Apr 28th 2008 at 03:33 pm 153

     By the way, Evan, can my repeated posts get deleted?

154. vino Apr 29th 2008 at 07:50 am 154

     Re: A-L’s #152

     I don’t disagree with your characterization of compromising (that dirty “c” word!). I do think that the view you offer in the 2nd paragraph, while certainly preferable and healthy, represents a small minority.

     I had this discussion with a woman I know this weekend. Her POV is that she’s not going to date anyone who makes less because if she wants to do something or buy something when she wants, she doesn’t want to worry about his finances & whether he can afford to do something. She indicated all of her friends feel the same way. She also mentioned having kids as a reason for this (future planning).

     “Sooooo that’s because you or they would want kids and to take time off to have them?” I asked. “Right” she said. “And not have your standard of living drop from what it would be if you were single?” I asked. “Yes. Of course.” She answered. I asked, “So let me get this straight. I’d get to fund your standard of living, reduce my own correspondingly, and this is a good deal for me?” No answer. “uhhhhh….”

     That’s fine. Anyone can have their ’standards.’ I asked her what her friends would think if I applied that same standard to them. She said they’d freak. Typical. Fair is fair, no? Turns out the answer is no…

     So, no… In general, women who earn more than men are LOATHE to date or marry them.

     So to recap…

     “In terms of womens’ tastes, I think most women require a minimum base salary. This would include the minimum needed to sustain the cheapest lifestyle they would feel comfortable living. (When I say living, the cheapest salary that 1 person could live on comfortably, not supporting both people.) So long as a guy meets that minimum, then anything over it is gravy.”

     - Than minimum salary for most is 2-3x what they themselves earn, notwithstanding your healthier perspective. not a scientific conclusion at all, just one based on lot of experience.

155. vino Apr 29th 2008 at 07:53 am 155

     “My point was the “Don’t Marry” t-shirt will make most of women run away faster than the speed of light”

     - Just the less-enlightened ones…

     “But please don’t take it like I’m challenging anyone on their choice of wardrobe LOL”

     - I knew you’d critique wardrobe choices…So much for acceptance.

156. cinnamon Apr 29th 2008 at 08:27 am 156

     vino,
     Sorry if that upset you, I thought you were in a joking mood…
     What would an enlightened one do?

     BTW, thank you for the book recommendation, just finished this weekend

157. vino Apr 29th 2008 at 09:35 am 157

     I missed Eda’s #138…

     “I really don’t know why, but your view of women makes me sad.”

     I don’t have a particularly negative view, I think. I think that there are legal incentives and societal ones that reward less-than-altruistic behavior (selfish, self-indulgent, base) towards the opposite sex that way. So if you make something attractive enough (or not unattractive enough), people will do it (Kind of like paying someone NOT to work or like taxing something so much you no longer do it..) I further think we have to acknowledge the lesser parts of our nature in looking at the opposite sex.

     I’d think it should make you sad. Or angry, or….?

     “I truly believe that there are lots of women who don’t see men as meal tickets and who would be more than happy to contribute equally (emotionally, financially, sexually, and intellectually) in a relationship.”

     - I think there are lots, but still a monstrous minority. So much so sorting through the majority to get to the minority is not worth it more often than not.

158. vino Apr 29th 2008 at 09:36 am 158

     I was joking, just didn’t add after acceptance.

     No worries.

159. vino Apr 29th 2008 at 09:37 am 159

     Trust you found the book helpful

160. cinnamon Apr 29th 2008 at 10:10 am 160

     vino,
     re: 159
     Yes, though in a different way than I anticipated from the description.

161. A-L Apr 29th 2008 at 05:02 pm 161

     From the conversation Vino quoted about why women want men with higher salaries: “Sooooo that’s because you or they would want kids and to take time off to have them?” I asked. “Right” she said.

     It appears as though the key ingredient for women wanting high salaried spouses, and getting a lot of alimony/child support (See the “Why (Some) Women Might Consider Settling thread) is…the child. If neither of you are inclined towards having children, then I don’t think there’s as much financial pressure for a man’s salary to support a whole family. Also, you don’t have the fears that some men have of losing a large chunk of your salary if you end up divorcing.

     But before you place the stay-at-home mom firmly in the corner of the golddigger woman, there are many men who want and expect their wives to stay at home with the kids, and are happy to do so, and it’s not a requirement pushed onto them by their wife.

162. vino Apr 30th 2008 at 08:33 am 162

     cinn:
     do tell, if you are comfortable.

     A-L,

     Good post. Actually, the kids argument is just a rationalization despite whether she 1. wants them; 2. might want them; 3. Don’t/likely don’t want them. Let me explain.

     A follow up point to the quote you used is more important – Let’s not forget that the reason she seeks someone who earns more is so HER standard of living doesn’t drop one iota if she wants to have kids. God forbid. So it’s about HER comforts whether there are kids or not.

     My point is that the vast majority of women want the guy with more $$ regardless of whether they want kids or not. But they sure are unwilling to reciprocate if they earn far more than the guy. He can stay home with kids, no? This happens, but very rarely indeed.

     “But before you place the stay-at-home mom firmly in the corner of the golddigger woman . . . pushed onto them by their wife.”

     I agree there are guys who want wife to stay at home with kids. This is, to be blunt, stupid. Not for the emotional reasons, but later legal ones. The problem occurs at divorce. She needs no reason to divorce, legally. If she hasn’t been working for years (b/c she sought a guy who earned much more) she has an annuity via ½ of property, alimony, and child support. It’s the textbook example of a divorce racket. Keep in mind ladies initiate over 70% of divorces. They often don’t start off as goldiggers, but sure become it through divorce, which is really the endgame of what we’re talking about.

     That’s part of my issue analytically with this – the far lower earner (either sex) risks little, but stands to gain far more than what they put in, and the higher earner need not do anything wrong to lose it. See Paul McCartney.

     In the end, the odds are likely (70% + in CA) that the higher earning guy (since that what women seek in general) will lose ½ or more. I don’t see where that’s a deal that’s a benefit to him, or me for that matter. I see where she can benefit. I see where a child can benefit. I just don’t see where he/me does. By the way, this analysis is gender-neutral – it applies more to the men earn model, since women who earn more almost always do not marry down economically. I say guys should do the same.

     I’m not trying to be a contentious SOB, I’m just trying to discuss real, practical, likely issues and hurdles I face as a guy in the dating/marriage world.

163. cinnamon Apr 30th 2008 at 11:49 am 163

     to vino,
     Suffice to say, since I already have basic theoretical knowledge within neuropsychology and also PTSD, I found it a very interesting reading.
     It is extremely interesting that the circumstances in which we make bonds with people actually have a big influence on the intensity of these bonds, both on the negative but also positive side as in e.g. combat.
     Sorry, I’d love to share more, but this is really not the right forum and it is completely out off topic…

164. blah blah blah Apr 30th 2008 at 01:45 pm 164

     Too much talk here. Whatever happened to the KISS principle? Go after what you want with reckless abandon and don’t give a sh*t what other people think about you. I think a most successful people fit this profile.

165. A-L Apr 30th 2008 at 03:49 pm 165

     Vino,

     I don’t view you as a contentious SOB. As you yourself noted in some thread, your manner of delivery is tactful/polite, unlike some other individuals who no longer post here. We obviously have different points of view, but I’m always glad to see things from the other side.

     In terms of the divorce/higher-earner issue, look at my latest post on the My Boyfriend is Wonderful, but not Ambitious thread.

     In regards to maintaining your lifestyle, I think that’s pretty true of both sexes. I think that men earning the bigger salaries are freer to date a woman with a wider range of salaries because they have more disposable income and can date a poorer woman while still maintaining a very comfortable lifestyle (ie, a guy earning $100k dating a woman earning $40k, with difference of $60k). Whereas men (and women) who earn more moderate salaries aren’t as likely to dip way far below their own salaries (man earning $40k dating a woman who earns $15k, with difference of $25k). The people with more moderate salaries can’t date someone so far below them if they want to maintain their lifestyle. This also goes along with the idea that both parties contribute toward the dating life, at least beyond the first couple of dates (see the who pays thread).

166. vino May 1st 2008 at 08:53 am 166

     I see what you’re saying, A-L. I hear you, really I do. But it still doesn’t address the issues of 1. the fact that women generally won’t ‘date down’ in income; and 2. why this is somehow equal and of equal benefit to both. I just don’t see why I should subsidize someone else’s life in any way. What is the proportionate benefit to me? I keep asking because no one answers.

     I just think that I should apply the same standards & expectations to ladies’ conduct that is expected of me. Something tells me that almost all women certainly wouldn’t want that. You’re actually seeing that on the other thread…

167. A-L May 1st 2008 at 04:34 pm 167

     In terms of the benefit of marriage to men, see my most recent post on the other thread.

     Why won’t women ‘date down’? I can’t speak about the infintessimal percentage of woman earning $250k, or even the slightly larger group earning $125k, as my salary is nowhere near theirs. But why won’t I date a guy earning $20,000? Because my standard of living would drop to a level that I’m not comfortable with. I can subsidize the guy a bit and maintain my lifestyle, but not a ton more, because I don’t have a ton more disposable income. I agree that the woman and man should split the costs of dating equitably but there are too many things that I enjoy doing that I couldn’t pay for him to do and still do myself.

     And in terms of equal benefits, there was an article (http://www.livescience.com/health/070829_men_housework.html) showing that in relationships where there’s a greater income inequality between the two people, the lower-earning female ends up with a larger load of housework, etc, in an equalizing measure.

     But if you only want to date women who earn the same amount as you or more, go on ahead.

168. vino May 2nd 2008 at 02:26 pm 168

     A-L,

     I liked your post on the other thread. While I do not agree with it, it is well done & thought out. See my response.

     I understand your logic & rationale perfectly re: why you won’t date down economically. It makes perfect sense. I happen to share the same philosophy not out of economic necessity, but because the ‘return on investment’ so to speak, simply isn’t there. I’d rather use my money for myself, save, it, or if I’m going to give it away to someone, donate it to animal rescue or something else worthwhile. Just because someone does make far more than another in dating doesn’t mean it’s their responsibility to subsidize the other, no matter which person earns more.

     In the end, I just think it’s off-putting to expect someone to do what you (not you personally, the royal ‘you’) are unwilling to do the same in return, whether it be asking a guy out or bearing an equal financial share in dating.

     I find it fascinating that so many have a problem with this concept.

169. JB May 13th 2008 at 02:53 pm 169

     Hello,

     When I was young, I never believed it possible women would not initiate conversation with men. Girls talked to boys at school.
     In my dating life I was staggered at the inability of women to talk to men. It also struck me that weather at a bar, nightclub or 2 people in a waiting room – it was always the man that started the conversation, and if the man said nothin…nothing was said….

     We don’t even get into talking about dating, asking out etc, until we get the initial conversation sorted sorted.

     Women dont initialte contact with men :
     Reasonable Excuses :

     (1) they dont work, have no money or power and are brought up to expect to be asked out, married by 25 with Kids ….woops , applied about 80 years ago. Now women actualy have jobs and money and even drive cars…

     2) The woman is younger or shy.

     3) The women does initiate conversation – rare – credit to her and the following doesnt apply.

     It is not acceptable in 2008, for women to dress up, or go out in any manner that expects men to initiate conversation with them, when they would not do the same to men.

     My conclusions are as follows :

     1) Women are predictably dull and boring. Its completely predictable for men to go out over a time period and say, the only contact i have with women, is when I speak to them. Whereas to women, we might get rejected, but at least we are unpredictable and exciting.

     2) Women perceive themselves as sex objects…along the lines of the way they dress , to attract men. They act in a manner..I have a pair of tits,,,, what can you do for me to have me….not unlike a prostitute. If they acted in an equal manner, based on personality and companionship, they would have no problem speaking to men.

     3) Women cannot take rejection (probably the main reason), that is basically based on the fact they place a massive emphasis and value on what they look like as opposed to who they are. Of course that also tells you most women are very shallow. But their fear of rejection, tells you women are generally weak souls.

     4) They lack personality and humour and cannot dominate conversation, so dont have confidence to approach men. Women claim they are good at communication, yet are proved by not initiating conversation with men to have an inability to speak to 50% of the population on equal terms.

     5) Women see themselves as inferior to men. I also think women feel partly intimidated by men. Just as a child doesnt tend to talk to adults, women seem scared to talk to men they dont know.

     6) Women do not like making decisions. They want and expect a man to make the important decisions for them. To them, the man’s decision making is more important than their decision making process. What could be more important than your choice of partner ?

     7) They are lazy. They want an easy life. They dont want to put themselves out.

     They have weak egos. They want their egos boosted and rely on old rules regarding gentlemans chivalry that goes back deep into the last century.

     9) Women are takers, not givers, financially , and particularly emotiobnally… They drain off of men. Women are selfish by nature. They know men like compliments, like to be chatted to and initaite conversation, but they dont do it because that is giving and women are selfish.

     10) Women want an ego boost. They rely on men to make them feel worthwhile

     One thing i will say is that by their own action of not approaching men, they set themselves up as sex objects (yes you not us) and women’s value is therefore firmly placed on their looks.
     So when they lose their looks and get older, they lose their value – AND based on how they act to men, it is totally acceptable for men to leave them for a younger and more attractive model….

170. Michael Ejercito May 13th 2008 at 05:30 pm 170

     Women need confidence as much as men do, that is for sure.

171. hunter May 13th 2008 at 06:54 pm 171

     To A-L,

     Please let us know where the “infintessimal” amount of single women with 250K earnings are/reside.

172. hunter May 13th 2008 at 06:57 pm 172

     to Michael Ejercito,

     Women need confidence? Maybe the never married/single women, ’cause, once they marry, they become powerful beings.

173. hunter May 13th 2008 at 07:05 pm 173

     To JB,

     A womans mind was built to follow a man, that is what frustrates women.

174. moonsical Nov 17th 2008 at 07:18 pm 174

     Wow. Hot topic. I hoped to learn something here, and did, with a little nugget about IT geeks from Steve. Also a lot of divergent opinions and hot air. Gosh.

     It was shocking to me to learn that there is an opinion from any man on the planet earth that women do not care about their feelings. Do you know how much time women spend with other women trying to figure out how you feel because it’s not expressed or is indecipherable? Hours and hours. Yes, she’s not picking up on her cell because she’s talking to her girlfriend dissecting your last conversation trying to figure out what you meant, how you feel, what you want, and on and on… Luckily as we age become less obsessed with this. Thank god. It’s not a total waste of time, but it does turn out to be just speculative. Here, now, one such conversation I’ve run with some folks:

     Okay, so I finally had to drop interest in a man-about-town that was googly eyed over me because though he seemed interested, nearly all the time, and I gave him my contact info and even asked him to get together (everyone said, “He’s just SHY”)…TWICE…and he is responsive, and says things like, “I’d like to take a rain check on that beer.” (big smile) or, “That would be fun sometime but today I have to___.” we have yet to go on a date. Maddening. Frustrating. And I want him to stop being so damn friendly every time I see him (though we’ve never talked more than five minutes alone, once he even hugged me enthusiastically.) (Some are speculating on his sexual orientation, including my Dad.) Why do men do totally cute things like say, “I hope it’s not too long,” (before I see him around again) but not ask a woman out? I have heard he’s not had a girlfriend (“serious or otherwise”) in forever, and though I see him out frequently, only once with a woman, and never again. He always seems happy and excited to see me. He is a self-described geek/nerd type. This went on for six months, and then I gave up. What’s the deal?

     moon

175. D.J May 13th 2009 at 07:06 pm 175

     Women are sexually superior to men,they don’t need to ask a man out for a date.
     Men are there to pleasure them..simple!

176. Alek Jun 13th 2009 at 03:30 pm 176

     “”If the guy sees a woman smiling and flirting and doesn’t ask her out, then he’s either involved or not interested (lots of reasons why that could be).”"

     Quite a few studies have confirmed that men are BLIND to these signals. As in 87% of all men can not see mating signals by women (the univeral biological ones)

     As for the social signals like smiling and flirting…
     The problem is that in a multi-cultural society like ours, everyone you meet has different signals. What’s “just being polite” is “flirting” in another up-bringing.

     Its impossible for men to tell if the woman is giving an “approach me signal” or not. Its completely random, way too many factors. And women never take this into account. If she gives a signal and he doesn’t approach, she takes it personally or declares him a loser. The truth is that he knew there’s just a 10% chance she was interested (from his standpoint).

     So, stop telling women that if men don’t run around initiating at every opportunity that they’re not interested. Its very damaging and untrue. It just creates more sad distrust among the genders.

     Both genders should just communicate more, and in more direct ways. Screw subtlety.

177. Greg Jun 22nd 2009 at 10:25 am 177

     People are morons. There are very good situations for women to ask out a man. When the guy is really shy and it cannot be helped, that would make his LIFE if a woman asked him out (trust me). Also, when there are too many women for a guy to consider at once, again another great time. And then there is me, who is in both boats…..just be glad you are not me.

178. starthrower68 Aug 10th 2009 at 10:06 am 178

     I have a friend who expects a woman to come to him, but he says that he will be in control of the relationship. Not sure what I think of this. It almost seems like its his way or not at all. Guys, what say you?

179. Joe Aug 10th 2009 at 11:39 am 179

     Well, if it’s his way or the highway, and you play along 100% of the time, it looks like he does control the relationship…

180. starthrower68 Aug 10th 2009 at 12:34 pm 180

     Joe,

     Well, ok yes, I guess that seems kind of obvious. He can control the relationship, but he cannot control me. I have grave concerns about such a situation and am not thinking this is a good thing for me to get involved in. But perhaps I’m in error, thinking that I’ll get anything different than this if I want a masculine, assertive guy? My belief is, a masculine, assertive guy will pursue and make sure a woman knows of his interest and intentions. He will not require her to do all the travelling to be with him, initiate all the contact, etc. I believe a guy who is truly interested in me will not expect me to jump through hoops then tell me that he will be in control of the relationship. C’mon fellas, gimme some help here.

181. An introvert Aug 16th 2009 at 01:04 pm 181

     Nonsense.

     This advice is not at all applicable to introverted men .. who would rather want the women to ask them out (and they don’t consider it rude, masculine, desperate or any of that bullshit that extroverts come up with).

182. Rave Aug 22nd 2009 at 04:38 pm 182

     This is just more brain washing bullshit garbage. I for one would love to have a woman ask me out for a change. That way it takes all the pressure off me having to go up to the girl, get to know her, risk making a fool of myself, and risk getting rejected and blown off within the first 5 seconds of her meeting me.

     With women you need to be a god damn mindreader to know what they’re thinking about you at all times, because of brain washing garbage like this article that manipulates a woman’s brain into dividing the sexes. All women have to do is be upfront with a guy. If you like someone just ask them out DON”T beat around the bush like this guy advises. Guys have 1000X times more pressure than a woman does these days. So if you like the guy just go up to him ask him out and whatever this article tells you to do, DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF IT!!!

183. The InBetweener Sep 18th 2009 at 01:09 pm 183

     Hey Evan, from one Leo to another, thanks for sticking up for us shy dudes. (referring to the contradiction at the end of this particular piece) Describes me to a certain degree.
      

184. Sam Sep 25th 2009 at 12:45 pm 184

     I’m not intimidated by a strong woman and I love to see interest on her part, but if it’s too soon in an online communication cycle I can be bothered.

     (note, I virtually exclusively date online)

     It depends on the circumstances of the date. I live in a suburb about 40 minutes and $10 from a central city. The girls in the central city are rarely willing or able to come out to see me, so it’s always me going in to see them for the first date. If she has not put much time or effort into emailing and talking to me on the phone and she expects me to spend almost 90 minutes going into the city to meet for what might just be a 1 hr coffee date I am dismayed.

     The “meet me at a location that’s way more convenient for me than it is for you and then pay for my coffee/dinner/drink” thing gets tiresome. (you try it girls) Investing time in me signals sincere interest, so I prefer to only date women who have spent time getting to know me.

     I don’t take that long to ask a girl out, so chances are, if she’s asking me out it’s right off the bat and I my “casual quickie hi and bye I go out with five men a week” dating alarm goes off.

     I’m not shy. I’ll ask you out if you’re interesting. You don’t need to ask me.

185. Shelagh Nov 5th 2009 at 02:23 pm 185

     hmm… interesting. ^^^ I asked out one of the “shy guys” mentioned in this article and he’s great! Far better than any guy I’ve ever dated and I know for sure it’s a mutual feeling. I think he’s just shy around certain women though because he doesn’t seem timid otherwise. Either way it was a great idea.

186. James Nov 14th 2009 at 08:23 pm 186

     I have to agree with the last few posts. There is no reason why women can’t ask men out. I’ve had many ask me out, if they were too uncomfortable with the direct approach sometimes they would have their friends ask me or give their friends a note to give to me. I love this! There is no greater feeling in the world when ANY gender shows interests. Guys who say they don’t like to approached first are probally insecure with themselves, ANY guy has to have a few screws loose too deny he does not like being shown interest by women.

     I agree with Rave, more brainwashing balony, these people are trying to market off of mens insecurities. I am definitely a mans mans, i was in the military and work a job most “alpha males” would be too scared too ever even try for a minute. I am an introvert myself. I have the ability to be in control when i have too but its no big thing to me because i’m secure enough with my own manhood to begin with. Its the men who are afraid of women approaching them first who i think have self-esteem issues.

     Trust me on this one, most men do like to be approached or at least be shown interest. What should be important is the relationship itself, not how it happened. I will be fair, if a women don’t approach me or show me some type of interest then i will assume they aren’t interested in me and then i will move on! (i’ve done my fair share of approaching myself). If someone is interested in someone than that person should do something to let the other person know it regardless of gender.

187. Nikki Nov 15th 2009 at 10:47 pm 187

     All I have to say to this post is that men and women are NOT THE SAME!  Figure out what your role is in this world and be comfortable with it.  It will NEVER be interchangeable and you can’t get it back once you give it away.  One person is the Lead and the other is to be lead.   If men want to be waiting by the phone and hoping to be asked out after 2.5 million years……Well enough said!
      

188. James Nov 16th 2009 at 06:11 pm 188

     The double standard needs to be eliminated, women obviously have some differences with men. However women today vote, have large career opportunities, have positions of power, its not 1955 anymore.

     My whole argument is that if a women likes a guy they HAVE to expect do some work. Even if a women don’t ask out a guy first the least she can do is let the guy know she is interested, i’ve had many women do this by asking a friend to tell me, give me a note, or even make small talk with me, then if i was interested i would ask the women out on a date. THE WOMAN HAS TO SHOW A GUY SOMETHING!!

     I know ALOT of women in and out of bad relationships and alot of them have kids that are abandoned by most of the “men” they were with, and they repeat the same cycle over and over again because they are “traditional” and don’t do anything for themselves to try to get a decent man.

     I never blindly go up to a woman to ask them out, prefer meeting through nuetral setups like through friends, or if i see or talk to a certain girl through doing a similar routine like if i see her at a checkout counter regularly, maybe at a certain course we are taking together, etc. Men and women are different, but mens feelings get hurt just as much, there is NO reason why a woman can’t do more even if they don’t like being too aggressive.

     A woman who thinks she should always be pursued and feels she don’t need to do anything to show interest is from my experience an extremly selfish woman, they will always attack guys like me and they obviously don’t appreciate the different personallity traits that many men have to offer. Thank god for the growing numbers of strong and intelligent women out there!

189. Michael Nov 16th 2009 at 06:27 pm 189

     So Nikki, you think women should just stay at home.

     Maybe you should move to Saudi Arabia, where male and female roles are very traditional.

190. everett552 Nov 17th 2009 at 12:40 pm 190

     My whole take on the matter is this……….People make dating harder than what it  is.  If two people are attracted to each other then it shouldn’t matter who makes the first move or who ask who out first, it’s gonna be either yes or no.  Every man is not the same and neither are women.  Some men like aggresive women and some don’t.

     Some women like a man who follow traditional roles and some don’t. Some women have the patience to wait months for a man to ask her out while others feel like “either he gonna except or he’s not”! If a man is giving you the eye, giving off flirtatous stares or vibes and that he’s feeling  you, then I don’t think it’s anything wrong for a woman to make the first move or ask him out.  Just because a woman is capable of handling rejection well or is confident and secure within herself to take initiative, doesn’t mean she’s desperate and insecure.   Everyone @ some point in their life has been or will be rejected, it’s part of the game but it’s not the end of the world .   

     Everyone you find attractive is not going to feel the same way and vice versa, still, it’s not the end of the world.  Everyone is not the same and everyone tastes, desires, wants and needs are different.  Just because a man ask a woman out first doesn’t guarantee a love connection nor a future relationship.

     After reading a few dating and relationship blogs & websites over the past several months,  I now have a better understanding of the men and how they think and feel.  I have learned to take dating with a grain of salt.  Take it for what it is and not for what it’s worth until he shows you otherwise.  If he’s putting in half a#@ effort or none @ all then i’m bouncing, no questions asked, he just wasn’t that into me. 

191. Kitaia Dec 15th 2009 at 10:00 pm 191

     You said, “Thank you for calling attention to this subtle nuance. Online, YES, ask him out – as long as you’re being coy and flirtatious, rather than over-complimentary”
     What?

192. Evan Marc Katz Dec 17th 2009 at 01:43 pm 192

     There is a “wrong” way to hit on men online, and it starts with compliments. I call it the Pedestal Principle. Once you put him up on a pedestal, he’s immediately looking down at you.

     So if your email is,  “Dear John, I read your profile and was so impressed. You’ve got an amazing smile and are so funny. There aren’t many guys on here who grab my attention but you did. I love the fact that you have a dog and are close to your sisters. Family’s very important to me and it’s refreshing to find a guy who feels the same way. I know you probably get lots of attention on here, but if you could check out my profile and write back when you get a chance, that’d be great. I really hope to hear from you soon. Michelle”

     Yeah, this is all wrong. He’s already won you over. There’s no spark. No challenge. No chase. No flirting. Just straightforward, “You’re great, please pick me” introduction. It’s weak.

     To learn a better way to flirt with men – seduce them even – go to http://www.findingtheoneonline.com. Disc 4, I believe.

      

193. James Dec 17th 2009 at 06:56 pm 193

     I disagree with you on this, most men don’t enjoy chasing women and you shouldn’t have to. Guys that want a serious relationship don’t enjoy chasing women. Straight forwardness is not a bad thing and is something lacking in meeting people, most people don’t want games and your encouraging it. Women that make themselves a challenge i do not bother with, i appreciate a woman when they are straightforward with me. What should be important is two compatable people meeting each other and being in a loving relationship and liking each others own individual personalities not how you got someone or playing games, i think there is enough games in society as it is today, no wonder there are so many single mothers and unwanted kids today. The only men from my experience that enjoy a challenge or the chase are either players, men who need to be in control because they are insecure with themselves to begin with or straightout jerks, i knew alot of these types of guys. I personally have no problems meeting women by doing my own thing and not taking other peoples advice and i think both men and women should do the same, be STRAIGHTFORWARD and let someone know if your interested, dating doesn’t have to be so hard, these so called dating “experts” obviously don’t want dating to be simple or they would lose money by people not buying their books, dvds’, etc.

194. Evan Marc Katz Dec 17th 2009 at 07:03 pm 194

     It’s great when men are straightforward and confident enough to approach women. We pretty much know that’s how it should work. Unfortunately, for better or worse, when women do the same thing to men? It doesn’t work. They’re seen as weak or needy or desperate or masculine or any number of unfair, unflattering things – just for being STRAIGHTFORWARD. I didn’t say this is fair, I didn’t endorse it; I’m just pointing it out.

     So would it work if a woman asked YOU out? Yes. Too bad you don’t speak for most men. It’s my job to do that.

     And it’s certainly not so I can make 14 cents on the next copy of “Why You’re Still Single”.

     Harrumph.

195. Michael Dec 18th 2009 at 06:58 am 195

     They’re seen as weak or needy or desperate or masculine or any number of unfair, unflattering things – just for being STRAIGHTFORWARD. I didn’t say this is fair, I didn’t endorse it; I’m just pointing it out.
     If they are weak, needy, or desperate, men can take advantage of them. Would that not be the ideal person with whom to have a relationship?

196. James Dec 19th 2009 at 08:44 am 196

     You don’t speak for most men, i’m not just describing myself but most other men as well. People, whether they are a guy or girl who truly like the other person for their individual qualities obviously would like to get to know that person better with the least amount of resistance as possible. If a women see’s a guy they are really interested in and they can also do more then fling their hair, wink or smile without asking a guy out first like making small talk, ask the guy a question or even tell one of their friends to tell you they are interested in you, that way the guy could still ask the girl out on a date first and there is no guessing or worrying about rejection then that way you can get down to what really is and should be most important, to see if there is compatability.

     Many women are flirts and teases to begin with and many women from my experience will flirt even if they are going out with someone already and on many occasions are even married already. Both men and women need to do more if they are interested in each other, life is too short to let the other person of your dreams pass by because you reduced yourself to doing what other people told you to do.

     I KNOW MANY successful relationships where women initiated contact first, my gram and pap met by my gram making the first move on my pap and they were married for over 50 years (he was a decorated WWII army vet, boxer and coal miner, not a wimpy guy in my book. My mom made the first move on my dad and he was a Vietnam veteran, they were happily married for 15 years before he passed away from cancer. I know many friends and colleages where the woman made made the first move and their marriages are great. MOST MEN DON’T want a challege or to chase women, at least that i ever knew (that is alot), they want a women to show they like them even if the guy makes the first move, NOT PLAY GAMES!! Yes there were some women who were too aggressive and made themselves seem too needy and that was a turnoff for me, the same is true for guys who do this with women as well. HOWEVER, a women who shows me she interested in me without being too assertive does not strike me as “desperate or needy”, she is giving me my choice by letting me know ” hey i like you and it is alright for you to approach me, if not then that is ok and i will just move on”. That to me is not desperate but a scenerio most men appreciate, i am not in the minority on this one.

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