Do Men Like Bitches Or Nice Girls?

Do Men Like Bitches Or Nice Girls?Evan,

When it comes to dating, what do you think works best for attracting a man – and making him want to commit? In the world of dating advice, there are two opposite schools of thought on the subject: one is coming from the likes of Sherry Argov’s “Why Men Love Bitches” where the “nice girls” get passed over the more edgy, less giving women; and the other is from Tracy McMillan’s “Why You Are Not Married”, proclaiming that kindness gets you to the altar and the “nice girls” finish first with the ring on their left hand. Example (one of many) is that cooking for a man is a sign of caring and nurturing from McMillan’s point of view, whereas it’s a number one sign of a doormat from the Argov’s. In your experience, what works?

–Stephanie

Dear Stephanie,

I’m thrilled that you asked this. Honestly.

Because you’ve outlined the central dilemma that most of my smart, strong, successful clients face: should I be a bitch or a nice girl? What works better? What do men like? What if I’m naturally one way? Should I try to be the other?

These questions are all completely misguided.

The people who are happily married all figured out which trade-offs were worth it. The people who have not figured out their tradeoffs still struggle.

They reduce female behavior to a binary choice, when, in fact, behavior can never be compared to an either/or proposition.

We see fallacies like that all the time on this blog.

When I tell you to dial down chemistry, it becomes: “Oh, so I should go out with someone who is entirely unattractive to me?”

When I tell you that if you have your own money, you don’t need a man to make more than you, it becomes, “Oh, so I should find myself some slacker deadbeat who can’t support himself?”

Sorry, but the world is grey and these are weak straw-man arguments that women use to defend why they need a man who is taller, smarter, richer, funnier, etc. Except it’s simply not true. Men don’t need women who are taller, smarter, richer and funnier, and the fact that women think they do – as if anything else is “settling” – is the main source of the problem. The people who are happily married all figured out which trade-offs were worth it. The people who have not figured out their tradeoffs still struggle.

So here’s the deal, Stephanie.

Argov’s book doesn’t tell women to be “bitches”. It tells them to have boundaries, so as to avoid the fate of all the women who read “He’s Just Not That Into You”.

If you have boundaries, you won’t sleep with a guy until he’s exclusive.
If you have boundaries, you won’t stay with him for four months without being his girlfriend.
If you have boundaries, you let him know how he disappointed you and how he can please you better, instead of silently stewing that he unknowingly mistreated you.

This is basic assertiveness – and this is what prevents you from being a doormat.

Remember, men are about feelings. How we feel around you determines whether we want to stick around for life.

NONE of this prevents you from following the McMillan “Why You’re Not Married” model (which I wrote about in my 2006 book, “Why You’re Still Single”).

She and I (and pretty much every good, sane man on the planet) agree that the best way to a man’s heart is to treat him well. Support his dreams. Accept his flaws. Laugh at his jokes. Let him be himself. Cook him dinner. Give him oral sex. We’re really not all that complicated, y’know.

Anyone who tells you that this will make you a doormat (as opposed to the perfect wife), has absolutely no understanding of what makes men tick.

Remember, men are about feelings. How we feel around you determines whether we want to stick around for life.

I can assure you that if you interpreted the Argov book to mean “don’t support his dreams, don’t accept his flaws, don’t laugh at his jokes, don’t let him be himself, don’t cook him dinner, don’t give him oral sex,” you’ve got it 100% wrong.

And if you want a shorter way to get the formula right, let’s consider what it takes for a man to do well with women.

You don’t want a weak, needy, bland man.
You don’t want a raging, difficult, selfish asshole.

You want a nice guy with balls.

We don’t want a weak, needy, bland woman.
We don’t want a raging, difficult, selfish bitch.
We want a nice girl with boundaries.

That about sums it up, doesn’t it?

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Comments:

  1. 61
    Sparkling Emerald

    I read one of the “bitch” manuals, and I don’t remember if it Was Why Men LOVE bitches, or Why men MARRY bitches, but I was rather confused on the sex thing.  She basically said to practically act like a virgin your first time with him, act like this is some brand new experience, and be all coy and school girlish.  Then she says afterwards to act like nothing has changed.  She even approvingly recounted a story about someone who the morning after took a phone call from her mother, while ignoring her over night guest.  During their long conversation she motioned him to leave.  That is just RUDE behavior and truly is being a bitch.  I think when you have a guest, weather it is a romantic partner or just a friend, to leave them hanging during a long phone call is just plain old bad manners.  There really were a lot of good ideas in the book, but I couldn’t wrap my head around the idea of acting like a blushing virgin the night before and morphing into a flippant, indifferent bitch the morning after.  I wouldn’t blame a guy for disappearing after being treated that way.

  2. 62
    Rosalind

    “…the best way to a man’s heart is to treat him well. Support his dreams. Accept his flaws. Laugh at his jokes. Let him be himself. Cook him dinner. Give him oral sex.”
    No problem with that as long as the man also treats the woman well. It takes two to tango…
     

  3. 63
    Brian Wozniak

    I have dated girls since I was a 15 year old. I’ve had more than 15 meaningful relationships. I really don’t remember dating girls that were hard to get along with. In fact most of my girlfriends are silly acting and somewhat sincere. 90% were very thoughtful, and put real effort into romantic dates on a Friday night. So I would have to say, that as a card carrying nice girl dater, I only date nice girls.
    Its a rumor that nice girls aren’t cute looking. They are very cute. But I don’t date bullies. I don’t like sociopathic women. All of my girlfriends are very sweet. So not to gross you out, but I only date nice girls. The word “hunny” is definitely a starter for a first date. The word “I’m coming after you” is a turn off.
    Hope that helps.

    1. 63.1
      Tina

      @Brian There need to be more men–correction people–like you in the world. It’d be a better place. 

  4. 64
    Reginelli MF

    One bad peach makes the whole orchard looks rotten.After being in a two year relationship, and how it ended,( ghaad) Ive become numb to any advances that a woman would forward,because I see them all as..bitches. Would I date a bitch? Well,I know how they think,act,and the way they dont care about anyone’s sucesss but their own,I would just get laid,and leave.If she calls back, who’s fault is that? Bitches get what they give.

  5. 65
    Liz

    i am a nice girl, trying to figure out how to be more assertive and communicate my desires in the relationship. when my boyfriend’s behavior is unacceptable its difficult for me to tell him that i am not okay with it and then when i do, he throws alot of tantrums. especially when i dont conform to his wishes or if i am not ready to have sex every time he is. so he will never leave it alone and always initiates it whether i want it or not.  he is considerate in alot of other ways but this trend is not stopping and he called me a self-entitled bitch tonight because i have been acting more on what i want lately. I dont want to be dramatic but i feel like quitting this relationship and this article made me think in a new perspective about what a relationship is. I hope that one day we can all find that Balance between respect and accountability in a relationship that we crave. 

    1. 65.1
      Karl R

      Liz said:
      “when i do, he throws alot of tantrums.”

      He doesn’t sound particularly mature, or particularly good at conflict resolution. Both of those traits would affect the happiness, health and longevity of a marriage.

      Liz said:
      “or if i am not ready to have sex every time he is. so he will never leave it alone and always initiates it whether i want it or not.”

      You may need to change the way you view sex, or you’re going to have serious problems with all of your future partners.

      How often to you initiate sex? If you’re like most women, you don’t. I had one girlfriend who initiated sex some of the time. (I initiated 2/3 of the time, she initiated 1/3 of the time.) I had two others who would occasionally hint that they would like me to initiate sex. For every other woman, either I initiated sex, or we didn’t have sex.

      I have mostly dated women with normal, healthy appetites for sex. But in order to find out whether my partner wanted sex, I had to initiate things and observe her response.

      People don’t read minds. It’s not reasonable, fair or mature to criticize your partner for initiating sex when you’re not interested, unless you make a habit of telling your partner when you are/aren’t interested.

      Furthermore, if you never initiate sex, you’ve never been in the position of initiating, then having your partner tell you they’re not interested.

      How would you feel if you were in the mood for sex, initiated sexual activity with your boyfriend (any boyfriend, not necessarily your current one) and were explicitly told that he wasn’t interested in having sex?

      Obviously, the way you would feel would be heavily affected by how he expressed that message. There’s a world of difference between:
      “Get off of me. I don’t want to have sex with you tonight.”
      - and -
      “I’m feeling exhausted tonight, lover. Could I get a rain check until tomorrow, when I’ll have more energy?”

      In every relationship you’ll need to be able to handle a mismatch in sex drives, especially since people’s sex drives change over time. The less of a mismatch, the easier it is to handle. But in any case, both partners will need to accommodate the situation when one person wants to have sex and the other doesn’t.

      As a general rule, asserting yourself is better than getting angry. How you choose to assert yourself will affect your partner’s response.

  6. 66
    The right way

    This is just wrong. Women we don’t care for boundaries unless it’s boundaries towards another person. The problem with being this doormat type is actually the problem on how we choose partners. Stop lying to women, a doormat can have my vote, but she is likely to choose someone irresponsible and maybe abusive… So ladies, and gents, choose better.

  7. 67
    No2

    How did I Got Here ? I mean i was searching “why on website where you ask question about sex when a girl answer they alway think you’re a girl even if you say that you’re a guy” because I asked a question like that on another website and said I am a guy.

    And somewhat the search engine showed this.And reading the site name it sounds like a girl website but because I can’t resist talking I just wanna say something even though I know I’ll be probably kicked out of this place as I bet you’re all probably angry after guys whatever they do (like what I realized at school, I was staring at the sky and some girls walked to me and insulted me for no reason and I was like err what ?)

    I should shut it D:

  8. 68
    em

    But this seems to assume that a woman who sleeps with a man who isn’t exclusive with her doesn’t have boundaries. Maybe they both just want a lover for the time being and do not view each other as long-term potential but are having great sex and are happy with that. I’m in just a situation. If I met someone I thought I could be serious about, I’d stop having sex with my lover and take things very slowly with the guy I was seriously interested in. I would want us to be exclusive before having sex. Does this mean I suddenly have boundaries I didn’t have before? No, the boundaries with that particular man are just different, because what I want with him is different. So I don’t think it’s quite so black and white. It really depends on what a person is ultimately looking for with any given person.

  9. 69
    SmarterThanEveryoneInThisGodForsakenPlanet

    men dont love bi*ches and women dont like d*cks.. we all just want to be with someone with self worth, its not about freaking gender people, and most people dont know what self worth means.. sigh.. 

  10. 70
    Michael

    I want a good woman. I am into finding a good woman to start a family, and be with for the rest of my life, marriage, all the rock solid stuff. But I am not a kid, it took till I was in my mid to late 20′s till I was definitely looking for that, exclusively. When I was a little younger, I wanted to find that, but I  would accept someone I did not really want to be with, because I was, well, young. Now I will not settle for anyone I do not really want to be with. O.K. her is how I see it.  I do not think a woman needs to be mean to be respected. I do not think that a woman will necessarily be taken advantage of, just because she treats a man well.  If a guy can not handle being treated well, he is the turd, and not good enough, so toss the turd.  If a woman is mean to me, it does not make me respect her, I just leave as soon as possible.  A woman can be a total bad ass, and be totally sweet and sexy also,  this goes for men and women. Usually when a man or a woman is in super good shape, and perhaps very good at fighting skills, and an out door person, they are usually more relaxed,  confident, and friendlier people, because they exercise the stress away, and feel better. If a woman is tough, she does not need to be a bitch at all, and having a bitchy mean mouth is no substitute for being able to defend yourself from bad people.   Actually that is the kind of women I like, that like to go hiking, go off rope swings, camping swimming, all that stuff. With a real good tan, maybe a little dinged up from playing sports, or working hard over the years, maybe a couple sports scars, but totally sexy and loving.  I do not like super prissy, bitchy complaining types, that get mad when the wind blows their hair, and hate classic rock, and cool noir, or art house movies,  and stuff like that, and hate poetry, and books, and just see everything in a negative light, no matter what it is. Some women, you can take them out for a good dinner, and have a good time, but they will bitch about the chair at the restaurant, or the band did not play long enough, or played too loud, or not the song they wanted, the waitress did not bring the drinks fast enough, etc.. they are real quick to bitch, but you have to actually ask them to get an answer, if they liked anything, they will not tell you anything good unless you ask! I want a woman that is the exact opposite of that, because I just got done with one of those a little while ago! Definitely ready for a good woman, and I will totally appreciate you! I have lost way too many lonely years to count, by being with the wrong ones! Since about 1990, or so…time for a good woman, definitely!
     

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