I Find Most Men Unattractive. What’s Wrong With Me?

I Find Most Men Unattractive. What’s Wrong With Me

I find the vast, vast, vast majority of men unattractive. Mostly it’s that I don’t have any physical attraction to them, but once in a while (about twice a year if I’m on a lot of dating sites, or once every few years if I’m not), I’ll meet someone I actually think is good looking (a hint here is that I find most celebrities physically unattractive, apparently my sex drive is picky but I couldn’t tell you why – although I DO have a high sex drive…).

However, I’m also aware having been through a lot of therapy after numerous and significant mental health difficulties (eating disorders etc.) that I tend to date cold or unavailable men and then not ask for more and maintain that emotional distance – essentially, I seem to have been in a habit of avoiding intimacy by going out with people I don’t find attractive, or more often than I’d like to admit, men who I know are gay before I even ask them out…otherwise they’re narcissistic or give mixed messages, or aren’t close in some way etc.

Knowing that I have that pattern, I made a promise to myself to pick up on coldness whenever I find someone attractive and to walk away. And that is something I do – I look specifically for empathy. And guess what…on those very rare occasions when the idea of kissing/sleeping with someone is not downright unappealing, they’re cold and narcissistic, and so I walk away.

Now to be honest, I’m not too bothered about finding someone in the next couple of years, I’m still young at 28 and my career is my priority right now, so I’m not in too much of a hurry, but the reason why it’s been bothering me is that I’m actually starting to worry that my family messed me up so much I’ll never be able to love anyone. I’m therapied out and no longer diagnosable – I’ve made a massive recovery and feel extremely healthy – so I don’t think more therapy is going to suddenly make me find more men attractive.

I have tried being with people I don’t find attractive – and I usually remain friends with very nice men I have tried to date but didn’t find attractive, and I’m afraid they don’t start growing on me. They just become my friend.

Have you come across this and do you think the reason I find so many men physically unappealing is because of something psychological? Some of my friends think it’s do with the bar being raised…I’m quite attractive myself and I’ve had a lot of attention from the opposite of sex since I was about 13, including the “very good looking”, so perhaps it’s just knowing what I could have and that that’s influencing me?

SG

I feel for you, SG. I do. After all of your therapy, you are as self-aware as you can be, and yet it still seems to me that you have some significant blind spots about your problem.

Now, first of all, I want to make it crystal clear: you are not alone. Women, on the whole, are far more discerning than men when it comes to physical attraction. In the linked OkCupid study, women think that 80% of men are BELOW average in attractiveness, when, in a normal distribution, that number should be 50%. I’m not going to say whether these women are right, although THEY certainly feel they are. I will say that men, for all their flaws, are equal opportunity daters in a way that women are not. While they will still lust for the hottest woman around, they’ll ultimately marry someone in their league, which, empirically, is not always that attractive.

Men, for all their flaws, are equal opportunity daters in a way that women are not.

Your issue, however, is a little more extreme, and reminds me of a client I had a few years back. Very attractive woman – a 43-year-old personal trainer who hated online dating for the very reason you mentioned. No one was attractive enough for her. When we went through the website to take inventory, I asked her to put 40 guys on her favorites list. She couldn’t even do so. The only 6 guys she found attractive looked like 32-year-old GQ models whose preferred age range was 22-29. My client was pretty much out of luck because she found less than 1% of men attractive, including NO men her own age who wanted her in return.

Let’s just say that this wasn’t one of my success stories.

And this is where we bump up against one of my limitations of a coach. I’m not a psychologist who has been trained to delve into your past; my specialty is helping women in the present model confident behavior to elicit better results in the future. Your issue, in this instance, isn’t lack of confidence; it’s something that runs much deeper, something you only hinted at when you say that your family “messed you up.” Without knowing you, I have to concur.

Just read what you wrote to me:

“(I) avoid intimacy by going out with people I don’t find attractive.”

Sorry, but I want to challenge that assertion. You avoid intimacy by going out with people you DO find attractive – because the only people you find attractive are, in your words, “cold and narcissistic.”

That begins in your childhood, SG, usually with an absent, distant, or abusive father.

And so it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. The only men you’re drawn to are the worst ones; the other 99%, you eliminate because you’re not attracted to them.

There’s being discerning, and there’s being impossible, and you’ve unfortunately raised the bar so high that no man can jump it.

You seem to be somewhat aware of this when you state that you walk away from emotionally distant men – and yet you claim they’re the only people you sleep with, since the “vast, vast, vast” majority of men are unattractive to you.

And here you are, writing to me, wondering if you will ever be able to love anyone.

You have every right to worry.

I can’t “fix” you from here, but I can tell you that something is very wrong if you only find 2 people attractive “every few years.” There’s being discerning, and there’s being impossible, and you’ve unfortunately raised the bar so high that no man can jump it.

You are attracted to the wrong men for reasons beyond your control. You need to rewire yourself on what it means to be in a healthy relationship. And if it means you have to dial down your attraction from a 10 to a 7, in order to find an emotionally healthy guy, that’s a price well worth paying.

That may sound awful to you on two counts: 1) you refuse to compromise on chemistry, and 2) you don’t think that a 7 chemistry actually exists. For you, it’s all or nothing. I believe you.

But that’s not normal, it’s not healthy, and it will leave you no dating options whenever you do decide to take your love life seriously again.

Get thee to a really good therapist. You’re worth the investment.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    starthrower68

    Oh dear. This is going to start an ugly discussion. Not that the OP is bad. I agree, she’s self-aware and right to be concerned if that hindera her goals. I’m just bracing for some of the responses that are coming.

    1. 1.1
      Open your eyes

      Maybe you’re gay.

      1. 1.1.1
        Farrah

        My thoughts exactly.

    2. 1.2
      Teri

      I’m the same. Very attractive, don’t find most men attractive. Cold distant abusive father. Not gay. Almost puke at the thought of being with a woman.

  2. 2
    Interested

    Years ago, when in a long self imposed dry spell, as I began to think about coming out if it, I realized that I didn’t find moat men who I felt were in my league attractive. I made it a point to look at men and find at least one thing physically or otherwise attractive about them. It might have been nice hands, nice hair, a good voice, a sweet personality, a good laugh, the way he walked, a nice butt in jeans, whatever. Over time this exercise led me to finding something attractive about most men, enough that I could give them a chance. It made all the difference in the world. It also made a difference to “want” to be more inclusive and open-minded.

    I would also suspect that you can’t find anyone more attractive than you find yourself, and I don’t just mean your prettiness or physical attractiveness. It sounds as though, deep down you don’t like yourself very much. Suggest reading the very simple Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends On It by Kamal Ravikant. That book also helped me come out of my dry spell.

    I wish you luck in sorting out what’s really underneath the issue.

    1. 2.1
      Kimberly

      I applaud your creativity! You challenged yourself to look for attractiveness where you were having difficulties and in doing so raised your chances of finding someone compatible. I think this is an excellent tool to help anyone look beyond their most appealing features for a man. Looking beyond just appearances truly does help. Men who appear to be less attractive at first become much more attractive as you get to know them due to a sense of humor, intelligence, a lot in common, etc.

      1. 2.1.1
        interested

        Thanks Kimberly. I agree. Reminds me of my first internet matched relationship in 2002. We met on match.com and we spent a month writing long, deep emails back and forth before he asked for my phone number. Then we spent a month having long, deep, sometimes all night, phone conversations before he finally asked me out. We lived in the same town, LOL. When I met him in person I remember thinking he looked like his photo but in more detail I could see he had a bit of a pockmarked face from teenage cystic acne. However, by that point I was too dang invested to make a snap judgment about looks. I recall several months later after I had begun to fall in love with him, I was sitting across from him in a restaurant and was struck with the thought that I could no longer see the acne scars on his face. It was as if his face had been airbrushed. All I saw was a face I now found to be extremely handsome and sexy. It dawned on me that it was a prime example of “love is blind” and I felt for the first time in my life I truly understood what that phrase meant.

    2. 2.2
      CC

      You should explore the possibility of being a lesbian. Many people don’t want to come out to themselves because of the social complications, and deny their true attraction unfortunately. Also, there are asexual individuals that do not really have much of a sex drive, and thats normal too. Maybe you just don’t really want a man because of the complications of relationships.

      1. 2.2.1
        Ellie

        That was my quick assessment.

        Maybe you should be open to date women. Open your options, for the most part women are more beautiful and emotionally available.

        1. Jerry

          Yeah right. Lol. Woman are mostly more beautiful because they hide beyond make up. Maybe this woman is not attracted to any men because they don’t have make up on!

      2. 2.2.2
        Liz Bona

        She isn’t a lesbian. Why don’t proper just admit that most men are not attractive. I also find about one man a decade attractive and he turns out to be mental.

        1. B

          Really?  You think it’s men in general and not you?  lol

        2. CJ

          I don’t even like conventional looks and even then I rarely find men attractive.  I look around and there are so many attractive women everywhere and the men are simply not.  Conventionally good looking men are so rare and they know it, that they are almost painful to be around due to their gigantic egos. My first husband was ugly and  I found him attractive because I loved him. When I stopped loving him due to his personality – he became even uglier than before. I am definitely not a lesbian.  I tried that and NOPE, NOPE, NOPE…. So really most men are just unattractive.  And the good looking ones are up themselves. I thought for years I was asexual – but my ex took care of that!  Maybe I’m mainly asexual until something spectacular happens?  I really am not attracted to anyone, in anyway.

        3. Tyrone

          Woman looks around and rarely ever sees attractive men.

          On the rare occasion that the woman spots attractive men, those men have huge egos.

          Pot, meet kettle.

        4. Jacqueline

          True

    3. 2.3
      Cora

      Love it. Great advice. 🙂 Part of what she said in her post, I can relate to. She said she only saw a few guys over the past few years that she was very attracted to. I feel the same. And I am referring to “take my breath away” attractive. I have dated some handsome, successful men in the past – “powerful” ones. They were the most handsome (majority were honestly narcissistic – other than one) – but not the right ones for me. I live in a small area so I don’t see that many “take my breath away” men – but I’m sure they’re out there/here – I need to get out more. Just because I haven’t had that extreme reaction to men – doesn’t mean I haven’t seen attractive men. I think I can find attractive qualities in all types of people – if they are kind, compassionate – passionate – adventurous – funny – whatever it is. I am open to dating if there is something like that…I don’t need the over-the-top perfect modelesque man. Everyone is different though. It’s good to be open to seeing people differently.

    4. 2.4
      Heather

      I’m taking some of your advice lol!

  3. 3
    Dina Strange

    I have similar problem, but you know what. Once I gave a chance to a guy I didn’t find physically attractive, and then i developed feelings for him. It didn’t work out because he seemed to have problems with alcohol and his mother, but the point i am making – is that’s possible to develop feelings to someone you don’t find physically appealing.

    And here I have to second Evan. If a man treats you well, attraction will come. If he doesn’t, no matter how hot he is, eventually it won’t work out.

    1. 3.1
      Sharon

      I’m glad it worked for you. For me forcing a relationship just leads to resentment.

    2. 3.2
      Di

      “If a man treats you well, attraction will come. If he doesn’t, no matter how hot he is, eventually it won’t work out.”

      Thank you. I need to see more of this right now. I went on a first date and second date these last two Saturdays. I agreed to go out with him because he looked like a nice guy, and I figured I would be attracted to him if I fell in love with him. Compatibility-wise, it seems just fine (eHarmony got one right, but so far just one). He is wildly attracted to me and is treating me like his dream girl. In fact, you should have heard the long list of things he rattled off for his reason for liking me. So, I’m giving him the opportunity to make me fall in love with him. Unfortunately for him, I’ve hit that stage where I’m nitpicking him and questioning whether I want to do this. I’m also not attracted to most guys on sight, so I keep telling myself: it’s been only one week. He is still contacting me, even after telling him my boundaries with sex. There are no red flags. Just let him do his thing. I’ll give it a few weeks.

      1. 3.2.1
        Dina Strange

        Well, he was also an impotent. But I think it’s because he was drinking too much. And there were certainly communication issues, where a person would shut down, no matter how much i ask for communication and then plainly told me, he wouldn’t communicate no matter what.

        To think of it, there were tons of psychological issues.

        1. CC

          Dina – There usually are tons of psychological issues with alcoholics. It’s a no win situation. I’ve tried it, they are just plain emotionally unavailable, in love with the bottle and I can’t compete with that!

        2. Josie V

          “Well, he was also an impotent. But I think it’s because he was drinking too much”

           

          Could have also caused by a lot of attraction. Although less frequent, men can also not be attracted to their partner.

          As for the OP, forcing yourself to be attracted to someone you’re not just doesn’t work. Her trying to be with physically unattractive men is like telling a lesbian to try to be with men. It just doesn’t work.

        3. Josie V

          Sorry meant lack of attraction.

    3. 3.3
      Henriette

      Hmmm, @Dina strange… I’m like you; I’ve given chances to guys I didn’t initially find attractive and became attracted to them over time. However, I believe that many (most?) women arent able to make this transition. I’ve seen many women wish they could develop feelings for certain men but be unable to do so.

      Certainly, I see absolutely no proof that if a man treats a woman well, attraction will necessarily follow (and I don’t recall Evan stating this). Haven’t all of us known at least one great guy who we WISHED we could fall in love with, but we couldn’t will the feelings into existence?

      1. 3.3.1
        LMJ

        My problem is not that I don’t give men a chance, it’s that I rarely find the trifecta of a guy that is (1) into me (2) I am attracted to him (3) actual compatibility is present.

        I have read “Marry Him: the Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough” (in which EMK collaborated with the early 40-something author, as she pursued dating as a single mom). Based on that book, over the past two years I made a valiant effort to date men who I did not find attractive at first, hoping that “something” would click a few dates in. So far, it is not working – mainly due to compatibility issues, and a rash of avoidant communicators. But I have had a couple of girlfriends and acquaintances who married men who “grew on them” as far as physical attractiveness.

        Most recently, I have had a series of unanswered Match messages which I sent to men who I felt were “in my league” as far as attractiveness, yet ignored me. I had a nice phone conversation with a man I connected with on Eharmony, yet I felt like I had initiated most of the communication, so I left it for him to call again and he never did. It’s taken a toll on my self esteem, and while going through a lot with a difficult and stressful career change during the past year, I have been hesitant to put myself out there for further rejection and compatibility failures.

        1. Scott

          If guys on match don’t respond, it is likely you think you are much more attractive than you really are.

    4. 3.4
      Nina

      In this place, I must reply with my story. My first boyfriend I wasnt that phisically atracted to. I thought he was cute, but had no butterflies. Mostly, I loved his personality, we never fought, we could talk for hours and laughed together to tears. But sex with him was not that appealing. After a few years of trying nearly everything to put the spark on, that escalated to the point, where I felt it was only my fair obligation to him. This was absolutely horrible! He was hurt, unsattisfied, I felt pressured and phisical pain after doing it.

      But, yes, as you said, although he wasnt really sexually atractive to me, I evolved strong feelings. The thought of leaving him was unsubscribably painfull, as I loved him to die for! I began to question myself, wether is it my fault, is there sth wrong with me, with my sex drive and if I can fix it. But soon I discovered, that some men do appeal sexy to me in awake feelings, that i couldnt felt with my boyfriend. There was absolutely nothing wrong with my sex drive, as i also found out in my second relationship.

      Because the relationship became a mutual suffer in a sexual view for both of us and we didnt want a relationship constantly threatened by supplement of a third person to fulfill sexual needs, we both, EXTREMELY BROKENHEARTED AND BROUSED, agried to end it.

      I loved him and missed him so much, I thought the emotional pain will kill me. I lost 1/6 of my bodyweight in 2 weeks, I cried and shook all night long for two months and feelt enourmus pain, when I remembered of him, so I cried lot and lots for him for a whole year. So did he. But we new the essential part was missing from the start.

      And that is why i must opose your view here. I personally would never do this to me again. It cost me 8 years of not having a real man-woman relationship, it cost me a year of recovery and devastating pain, that i dont want nobody to experience.

      Still, i am grateful for meeting him, as he is a wonderful person, but the pain, I would never deliberately do it in my life! True, I think I am a very emotional person, so my pain could be stronger therefore. But still, no, my advice is not to go for it, where there is no or at least not enough of sexual attractiveness.

      I am now experiencing a similar problem as the lady above, but I rather stay alone all my life then start a relationship with not enough spark, chemistry or whatever you may call it. It is less painfull. I rather choose to believe, that there is someone, that will fit me, sexualy and in his personality and wont sattisfie for less. Sexual attractivnes for me, althouh, does not mean a model like man, but a combination of sth appealing in looks and character. It seems it shouldnt be that hard, but i live in a smaller town and am not a teenager for a long time anymore. Still, I refuse to give up. And believe any of you shouldnt too. Ive learned we all, despite what commercial world tries to force us in, have very different taste in what is sexy, as ive compaired it with my friends. So lets all find each other sbd that is in some way appealing and we feel sexually drawn to. I believe this is the only healthy solution, as we dont live in the middleages or some conservative culture. My parent conscieved me so  maddly in love, so I can say I was made with and out of love. This is the most beautiful way of starting a relationship and a family. This is sth that both partners in a relationship deserve – sbdy who they feel butterflies in the stomach for and he/she, who feels them for them. I wish you all a real good sincere love!

      Nina from Slovenia, EU

      1. 3.4.1
        anonymous

        Great post!

  4. 4
    Sharon

    God you sound so much like me. Really early sexual attention from men, and shortly there after the manifestation of eating disorders that I’ve struggled with since then. The need for a LOT of emotional space in relationships. Really high sex drive focussed on very few people.

    I’ve tried just about everything I can think of to no avail. Ultimately I’ve decided its either I long arduous road to reprogram my pleasure centers and maybe have about a quarter as passionate as other people seem in happy relationships or a long arduous road to redefine what a fulfilling life looks like as a single person. Neither is ideal but it is what it is.

    1. 4.1
      CC

      Sharon- “a quarter as passionate as other people seem in happy relationships”, the key word being SEEM. I have known so many couples that look like the ideal, then get up close and the flaws and problems show up in glaring reality. I think the majority of couples end up settling for ‘good enough’. Maybe I’m telling myself that out of envy. I hope not.

    2. 4.2
      Liz

      EVERYTHING you wrote in your answer is EVERYTHING that I am. From age 25 to about 20 I got  A LOT of male attention and it just kept building up my ego and had me thinking with the “I can get any guy I want” mentality. As I entered into my 20’s my standards for men changed, meaning I wasn’t just looking to date around I wanted something serious so I got a little pickier. I had some okay relationships and some really awful ones with heartbreaks. I’ve had about 4 serious dating relationships and out of those 4 I was only really crazy about 1 of them and he broke my heart and hurt me every single day so it ended sour but I’m completely over it and it doesn’t affect me anymore, the other 3 relationships were just me settling and being unsatisfied and happy the whole time and constantly waiting for the day that I can find the guy I really want. I am now 25 and I’ve gotten to a point where I don’t even know what I should do because I like a very very select type of men, for example he has to be of my culture (middle eastern) and dress a certain way or even talk a certain way, and etc. etc. Like when I say I’m picky I’m not looking for a GQ model, not at all. I just have my own particular ways of pickiness, like he obviously has to be physically attractive but I’m  not looking for a 10 I’m looking for like an 8, I believe I’m about an 8/9 when I’m all dolled up. But anyways yeah it’s very rare for me to find that type of man and like want to rip his clothes off every time I see him. And thats why I’ve tried to just date normal nice guys who weren’t my type AT ALL and there is no passion. Most recently I was with a guy for almost 2 years and I knew from day one that i didn’t like him but I tried to do that whole ‘he will eventually grow on me’ thing… yeah it didn’t work… and we fought the whole time because he knew I wasn’t into him. Anyways we broke up and I am now at a place where I’m like okay so what do I do, do I just get back into a relationship like my last one where I’m settling and there is no love and no passion and I have to lay there on the bed during sex and stare at the ceiling and count down the minutes until he ejaculates or do I just stay single forever in hopes of finding my right guy, which most likely won’t happen. I mean I’ve tried everything, I tried this about 3 or 4 different times, I’ve gone on SO many dates and I just know, I look at him and I’m like eh…. I don’t feel it but I give it a shot anyways but it never works. Oh I forgot to mention! I’ve actually come across one guy who I thought had all of the things I wanted, the type that makes me want to jump on him every time I see him, the type that takes my breath away. Well he was a complete sociopath, he liked me at first and really got my attention but he lied to me about his entire life, he lived a very mysterious ambiguous life, and I was a little skeptical about him  at first but he was so my type I couldn’t let the thought of us together go so I just avoided the red flags, things eventually fizzled out, because he started being cold and distant with me and I just had to go along with it even thought I didn’t want to because I really liked him, but at the same time i was doing my own research and figuring out his lies but I never told him that I did. Anyways he eventually disappeared out of my life and we haven’t talked in a long time. But I still think about him, not because I want him back but because that’s what I would describe as my type, like there was something about his face, it was so sexy. and I just want that feeling that I had of him back because I never ever feel that way about anyone. I always just see guys and think meh…. it doesn’t matter how great he is if I dont feel it I can’t pursue it, I’ve tried it, it doesn’t work for me. I end up so miserable and feel trapped and I feel like I’m missing out on true happiness.

      1. 4.2.1
        Liz

        age 15 to 20**

        1. Aussie

          Middle eastern man – you’re setting your sights pretty low, considering their attitudes towards women.  I was with a middle eastern ‘athiest’ for over a year and that experience compared to other men, cements in me the decision to NEVER date another one again. You are making the pool of men you will date into a small, sexist harrowing and harming demographic of men.  If you have other choices, then these men, I suggest you give other men a try before you make a decision to be controlled and manipulated for the rest of  your life.

      2. 4.2.2
        Sam

        Hi…just wanna say that you’re definately not alone. I have exactly the same problems as you. Most men are meh for me too. And I too have a very specific, rare type that I find attractive. Its usually older men belonging to my region and culture, those who seem to have a high iq AND eq, and I have enough of a sex drive that it makes me want to pounce on them. Alas, such men are always taken or too old to reciprocate. This makes crushes very rare and painfully long lasting, and always unrequited.

        I am reasonably good looking and fit, and there are quite a few nice sweet guys interested but I always freak out and break up after just a few dates.

        I’m doomed to be single I guess.

      3. 4.2.3
        Nina

        I understand you totally! My suggestion: to not feel trapped, pursue your dreams and believe that on that path, you will meet sbd that is rihgt for you. You are a good person!

  5. 5
    Clare

    I’m going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that SG’s not finding men attractive is actually a fear of happiness and being loved. The eating disorders are the same thing. If she WERE to actually find a man attractive, who was emotionally available, who was interested in her and able to love her, well that would mean that she might actually have to give a real relationship a shot, that might actually mean allowing herself to be loved and having to open and available to someone. My guess is that she’s very afraid of that, and that’s why she’s shut down. Loving cold and unavailable people is simply a reflection of what’s going on inside her.

    She does have something big going for her though and that is the dawning of awareness. She realizes she needs to stay away from cold and unempathetic people, and she realizes she has a problem and wants to fix it. Really I don’t think this has to do with who she’s attracted to – I think it has to do with how much she wants a relationship (or doesn’t want one). When she starts breaking down the defences inside, and thawing and opening up, my guess is she’ll start being able to open her heart to all kinds of men. But I think the opening up has to come first, not diving headfirst into a relationship.

    SG, start by opening up emotionally to animals, friends, family members you do love, strangers… anyone who seems non-threatening. Forget about physical attraction for the moment, and try to focus on a heart/feeling connection. This is somewhere to start.

    1. 5.1
      Chance

      It’s possible that you have a point, but she’s stated that she is making a conscious effort to walk away from cold/emotionally unavailable men. Given the information the LW provided, it’s probably impossible to determine where exactly the problem lies. I can only comment on what often appears to be the cause of this type of problem (which isn’t an uncommon problem, btw).

      From my experience, extreme choosiness seems to be an insecure woman’s defense mechanism of choice when it comes to relationships, while men deal this type of insecurity in other unhealthy ways. I think part of this problem is conscious, and the other part of it is the result of their current mental/emotional state. More specifically, I think insecure women often try to reject men upfront before they can become vulnerable to being rejected by men with whom they’ve developed an emotional bond. However, if they happen to be rejected by someone who is perceived as being above their “league”, even after a bond begins to form, there is probably less indignity associated with the rejection in contrast to someone who rejected her who was perceived to be in her “league”.

      The second part (the unconscious part) is something that both insecure women and men struggle with, which is the simple fact that people who see the worst in themselves are likely to see the worst in others – with the exception of people meet their idea of perfection. Think about the self-professed “nice guys” that are always criticized for ignoring the girls/women that are interested in them, while they only seem to be interested in most attractive women. It’s because they don’t like themselves. They see the worst in themselves, and as a result, they see the worst in potential partners. So, they ignore the most suitable partners that are in their “league” even when many of these women are interested in them (before they discover the lack of confidence).

      It’s the same thing with women.

      1. 5.1.1
        Andrea

        I think its unfair of you to say that these women see the worst in themselves and as a result see the worst in potential partners. But I will say that they have somehow been emotionally conditioned or programmed to feel the way they do and that a lot of it has to do with their early life experiences with significant males in their lives. It has more to do with fear and a lack of trust. For the most part, I feel like many of the responses in this posting have hit on several important aspects as to why women have difficulties with dating men.

        1. Chance

          Andrea, thanks for your reply.  You could be right.  However, I also said that men who see the worst in themselves are likely to see the worst in women as well.  Do you similarly feel that it was unfair for me to say this about men?  In addition, do you feel that many men who see the worst in women have also been emotionally conditioned or programmed to feel the way they do, and that a lot of it has to do with their early life experiences with significant females in their lives?

      2. 5.1.2
        Clare

        Chance,

         

        I can’t help noticing that you often talk about this concept of “leagues,” and there seems to be a tinge of defensiveness around the way you discuss this. What is a “league” I’d like to know? Aside from really obvious examples, people who are obviously on opposite ends of the spectrum like supermodels vs someone who is overweight, balding and with bad teeth, isn’t attractiveness very much a matter of personal choice? Don’t most people fall somewhere in the middle of these two extremes, and hence isn’t there quite a lot of leeway here? Also, people’s personal preferences alter so much. My girlfriends and I don’t at all have the same taste. My one friend likes blue eyes, I prefer brown eyes. She likes thin men, I prefer men who are well-built. Some of my guy friends prefer curvy, even chubby women. Some won’t date a girl with blonde hair. I’ve sometimes found a guy attractive whom no one else thought was anything to look at but he had something quirky about him. I could go on and on about the unusual and personal dynamics of attraction.

         

        Even though there are generally accepted standards of good looking, and I won’t deny this, there is SO much variation in people’s looks and preferences.

         

        And even if you are talking about wealth and success when you talk about “league” – there are plenty of men who are willing to compromise on a woman who is not as rich and successful as them in exchange for a loving, supportive wife. There are also plenty of women who would compromise in this arena if a man is talented and clever and supportive and had other things to offer.

         

        So again I say, unless you are talking about people on the extremes of the spectrum (very beautiful versus very ugly, or very wealthy and talented versus nothing to offer), what exactly do you mean by “leagues”? Isn’t this an extremely subjective area? I have to say I’d be offended if someone suggested my partner and I weren’t in the same “league” if we loved each other. And when you talk about “However, if they happen to be rejected by someone who is perceived as being above their “league”, even after a bond begins to form” I cannot think what else you mean. If people choose to spend time with each other and be together, what exactly does their “league” matter?

    2. 5.2
      starthrower68

      Sometimes it is scarier for people to receive love than to give it. Especially if one or both parents were distant, uninvolved, and or abusive. It’s not even a stretch to say that receiving love, when healthy attachment styles have not been formed in childhood, can feel abhorrent. Not at all calling that healthy, but I get it.

  6. 6
    Mel

    I had a similar problem & decided to take a break from dating to reassess what I really wanted in life & to get my career on track. After that self-imposed dry spell I came back to the dating world. I too had always been pursued by many guys throughout the years. That’s why the self-imposed break from dating was so important…to get used to saying no thanks to the wrong ones & to learn to appreciate the right ones. I turned down a number of really good guys. One thing that really helped me to get on the right track was learning from this blog that my pool of available dates was made up of those that are actually attracted to me. It doesn’t matter that I only find the most attractive guys of interest if they aren’t interested in me then they aren’t an option. The next step was to learn to pick & appreciate the really good guys. This was tough as I did have to accept scaling back in the chemistry department. I’ve found it to have been a totally worthwhile exercise & have now been married to one of the nicest guys I know for over two years.

  7. 7
    Traveller

    One of the problems with statistical studies such as the OKC one that Evan linked to is that they are only able to offer a picture of WHAT is happening, not WHY.

    Long before that particular study came out, I had noticed the same thing; most women (not all) consistently UNDER-rate men. To put it on the somewhat-over-used 10-point scale, women tend to think that guys who are 8s are “average”. And they view guys who actually ARE average, (5’s) as being 2’s – well down into the unacceptable range.
    Since there are so few actual 8’s, 9’s and 10’s in the world (less than 10% of the populace, by most estimates) this gives rise to the common view that “there just aren’t any good men.” When, in fact, most women are surrounded by good, available guys that they are overlooking, just because they are aiming impossibly high.

    As to WHY this is the case… my speculation (not proven, but, I think plausible) is that this is a recent phenomenon brought about by the overwhelming influence of TV, movies and lately, the Internet. Women (and men) are bombarded with pictures of good-looking actors and models, giving the impression that these stellar individuals are typical. Of course, they’re not; most are heavily made up, photographed from the best angle, and then Photoshopped, to make them look far better than they ever would in real life.

    Now, the fly in the ointment is that while men are well aware that women wear makeup, and tend to mentally compensate for that when looking at celebrity photos, I suspect that women _don’t_ mentally tend to make the same allowances for men. So the male actors, who spend just as much time in the makeup chair as the women, get disproportionately regarded as being representative of what men SHOULD look like.
    Thus women tend to think that real-world men are unattractive, whereas men don’t make quite the same lopsided error about women.

    The problem is – I don’t know how to solve this. Maybe the LW needs to go live for a few years in a country without TV, where all the men are truly ugly? Then when she returns, the guys here will look refreshingly attractive! OK, that’s probably not a realistic suggestion.

    It’s pretty tough when you look around, and think that everyone is beneath you. Personally, most women that I’m attracted to are, at best, average in appearance. But then I love a woman who is smart and creative, and energetic, and I just don’t put that much stake in appearances; I guess I’m kind of old-fashioned.

    Maybe the LW can spend some therapy time on WHY she thinks everyone is unattractive? Maybe that will uncover some basic personality trait that’s holding her back.

    1. 7.1
      Karl S

      I always assumed men rated low on Okcupid because, generally speaking, women rate men’s attractiveness more holistically – their demeanor, their status, the quality of their voice. The overall sense of “Alpha” that they can project. The okcupid study only goes by imagery, which means a lot of men who might have been considered attractive had they met in real life suddenly became below average and only the very few men who are supreme physical specimens managed a good rating. Of course, I could be wrong about all that too.

      1. 7.1.1
        Traveller

        @Karl:

        I believed that at one time, too; that women considered the “whole man”, so to speak.

        I got an inside look at this by working for a while at an in-person dating organization. It was a real eye-opener. Without going through all the details, it seems that, no: women form an impression of a guy within about 1 second of spotting him, and their estimate is generally based pretty much entirely on looks & height, with a small admixture of wealth involved. Basically, they glance at him, and decide right then and there how attractive he is, and whether or not they are interested in finding out any more about him, or just moving on to the next prospect.

        In other words, they essentially do the same thing most men do, just on slightly different criteria. I guess this shouldn’t come as a surprise; humans are all very visual creatures; I’ve been told that 70% of our information comes in through our eyes.

        1. Scott

          I do not think this has to do with being visual so much as typical sexual power dynamics. Women are the gatekeepers. The typical female can have 70-90% of men “on demand”. If the female is willing, most men will be. There is no biological / evolutionary benefit to women finding the “average” guy attractive. If you mate with an “average” guy, you will have average offspring. No evolutionary advantage there.

          Since access is not a limiting factor for women, they don’t select on that. Unlike men, who generally are willing to “take what they can get” and hence select based on access, most women select on quality. All women are looking to mate with above average men. Significantly above average. Unfortunately, there are not enough Top Ten Percent guys to go around. Luckily, in the modern age, being top 10% in size is not as important a survival trait as it used to be. Unfortunately, women’s wiring has not caught up to advances in medical science, tool-making, etc.

        2. Nina

          Thats why I dont like dating sites. You cant realy feel a persons “vibe” from the pictures, people are displayed like items in a shopp and there is nothing spontanious about it. Its teribble for me to think, how i am telling a story to my kids or grandkids: you know, it was like this, grandma chose me on the dating site…. horrible!

      2. 7.1.2
        Sylvana

        As a woman, I think you are dead on with that comment, Karl. There is a huge difference between a good-looking man and an attractive man. All females (of all species) are deeply wired to look for a male with a certain “energy” and specific traits (the ones best suited to ensure survival). Pretty faces have very little do to with that.

        And most women are not able to “read” a man’s energy from a picture. Therefore, it is extremely hard to judge actual attractiveness from only a picture, short of two obvious traits – physical strength and an extremely well-sculpted facial structure. Or – the supreme physical specimens – as you put it.

        But those two traits alone do not make a man attractive. His energy and personality traits are way more important (to the primitive instinct of survival, at least).

        If key character traits were added to the pictures, the outcome of “attractiveness” would likely change completely.

         

         

        1. Nina

          I fully agree with you, Sylvana.

    2. 7.2
      Al

      I read that OKCupid study and what isn’t being disclosed here is that, while women rated the men lower in attractiveness, they still DATED the ones they considered to be 4’s through 6’s. So, women may have felt that men, in general, were a lower level of attractiveness but it didn’t stop them from pursuing relationships with them. The women also tended not to contact a man if they felt he was out of their league. Not so with the men.

      The study showed that men, quite unlike the women, were aiming WAY above their own “attractiveness” rating, many completely ignoring the mid range women (like themselves) while flooding the “hottest” women with attention. Naturally, a lot of them would then complain that they didn’t get any response from women on the site. There’s a serious disconnect going on here. 

      What this study really showed was that women were far more practical and would consider a man for more than his appearance, while men seemed to have grossly unrealistic expectations regarding potential dates.  This is why men complain that “all” the women ignore them while there are plenty of decent women on the site wondering why they can’t get a date.

      1. 7.2.1
        CC

        Al- excellent use of logic and assessment of this situation. Very accurate. Go to the head of the class!!!!

      2. 7.2.2
        Chance

        Al, your assessment would only make sense if their ratings formed a normal distribution, which it didn’t.  Instead, it was positively skewed.

      3. 7.2.3
        Anonymous

        This is SO true. What’s with all these men saying that women can have their pick of guys? I am an average-looking woman (5″6, 135 lbs, in my 30s, have never been married and have no kids), and I contact average-looking men on dating sites. Most of them don’t respond. The ones who do write to me are usually older, overweight, or foreign (sounds harsh but I prefer someone with the same language and cultural background, so I generally ignore those messages). I won’t even bother with “good-looking” guys, since it seems all the average ones are chasing models.

  8. 8
    Kelley

    Have you been checked out physically? Maybe your problem is medical rather than psychological. You say your sex drive is high, but how are you releasing that? If you have not had one lately, maybe you should get a full medical checkup as there could be physical and medical reasons for not finding men attractive. At least then you can rule them out.

    1. 8.1
      Traveller

      That’s a very good thought! Kudos to you.

  9. 9
    Morris

    I don’t know if this will help. But I had a female friend that dated a lot but just didn’t click with anybody. I suggested taking a break from online dating and try something like meetup and go out and just have fun meeting people you have things in common with. Without the intention of dating.

    Sometime after doing that she met someone she clicked with. Didn’t happen over a single meetup or anything. Just organically. They’ve been dating for a while now so I guess things are going well.

    Although I have no problem finding the opposite sex attractive. I know from experience many women I wouldn’t have initially found attractive became very attractive once I got to know them in that kind of setting.

    Good luck.

    1. 9.1
      CC

      Gosh, am I the only one that is more concerned about whether or not their penis works? I guess mechanics wins out over aesthetics in my world. I’m practical.

  10. 10
    Henriette

    As we discuss this letter, I guess I wonder a bit about our definitions of “attractive.” SG seems to equate “good looking” with “attractive” but I’ve found plenty of handsome men to be unattractive and have been wildly attracted to a couple of down-right ugly men. So, I’d challenge SG to open herself to physical attraction based not just on looks but on other traits, too: the way he places his hand in the small of your back as you walk through a restaurant; his eloquence; his warmth when talking about his nephew; the way he smells; the crinkles in the corners of his eyes when he smiles at you…. Maybe you can learn to find some of these kinds of qualities as sexy as I do.

    1. 10.1
      Deborah

      So true! My thoughts exactly. 😉

      I tend to think in terms of handsome/beautiful vs sexy. My own appreciation of beauty has never been tightly locked up with sexiness, It’s a curious thing, because looks are obviously important to all of us. But if looks are the strongest appeal, you might just as easily be attracted to a mannequin.

      This is where a bit of self-awareness rreally pays dividends — understanding what it is that continues to hold your attention over time gives you a great shortcut for connecting with a man you’ll ultimately find wildly attractive even though he may not stand out in a crowd.

  11. 11
    Zebedes

    This seems to be the trend but it doesn’t explain all the cute girls featuring ugly men as dates/boyfriends out there. However, I did notice one thing yesterday in San Diego, women paired with ugly men do check out better looking guys when they spot them, especially with other women and you can tell they might be thinking, what am I doing with this dud when I could have THAT?
    Many times women are with ugly men because the good-looking ones are taken or are gay.
    Just like the OP though, there are men who cannot date unattractive women. I am one of them.

    1. 11.1
      mikeh71

      Zebedes, Unattractive women with more attractive men is far more common in the USA mostly due to a under 40 single 120 male and 100 female ratio. But I agree sometimes a dude gets lucky but usually the uglier man has a good job combined with some level of status. Also around 35-40 a women’s looks fade and she gets more realistic about her options or adopts cats…

      1. 11.1.1
        Zebedes

        Mikeh71 –

        True. The reality of life is this, past 35-40, in America, there is an age issue for younger women. They want some good-looking, fit guy with a good job, personality, sensuality, etc. THEIR own age. Which is fine. The real problem is when they start referring to older men as “creepy” or “perverted” simply because MEN are biologically interested in younger women, which works great in Eastern Europe and S. America. I have friends who are 45 and married to 22-25 year old Brazilian girls who could care less about age as long as the guy takes care of his body and looks good. They do not use this when I am 50 he will be 70 mentality. Who cares? Maybe he will be 70 and look great and you at 50 will look like your 65-70.
        I think people should stop the age issue and focus on the person because, EVERYONE will get older and they will face the very same problems they avoid now. Karma is guaranteed when it comes to ageing. So, when American women can’t find the guy that has it all, they say they are unattractive to men or older men. Spolied.
        That’s why I go foreign and I am sooooo very happy doing that. I have more dates a week than ever with lawyers, engineers, MBAs and other professionals 15-20 years younger than I. All this happened when I basically gave up on dating American women with all their demands and most of them have little to offer in return. They make high demands but put little on the table.
        So I am much happier now that I found a real solution to a real problem: culture.

        1. starthrower68

          You go friend!!! You sure are showing women!! *eyes rolling*

        2. Yeah right

          Nice fantasy. You should write books!

        3. pat

          Lol.  Ok….  So if you’re truly beating off the foreign young babes with a stick, why exactly are you on a dating advice website targeting American women?  Something doesn’t add up in your story.  True alpha males don’t need to tell or convince others that they are alpha (in fact, the alphas that I’ve actually met are completely unfamiliar with the “alpha” and “beta” nomenclature). You know why?  Because they are actually out there living their exciting, fun lives and not sitting around on the internet trying to convince American women that they are undesirable and unwanted.

          I’m not interested in short or bald or significantly (10yrs +) older men.  Guess what?  I don’t visit dating websites that try to help these men find love and sit around telling them how useless or undesirable they are to me.  Can you see why your comment comes off as sounding both bitter and purposely inflammatory?

        4. Sylvana

          I guess those women are fine screwing their 20 year old gardeners when they’re husbands get too old for the equipment to keep up with their wives’ needs.

          I really don’t want to be offensive, but one has to be a little realistic here. They don’t mind the older men, because they either want the financial security, or the men are excellent lovers (for as long as the equipment works, at least).

          Depending on where she is from, a $20,000/year income and a run-down mobile home might be better than what she would have otherwise. (not like there is anything wrong with that lifestyle).

          But to expect a woman who works her butt off to stay physically attractive and works hard to support herself to settle for a man who doesn’t set the same standards for himself is absolutely ridiculous.

          You don’t expect a physically fit, successful man to settle for a lazy, overweight woman.

          Then there’s the other obvious reason – with few exceptions, a man in his 60s or older will absolutely not be able to keep up with a woman in her 40s when it comes to sex. Unless she has no desire left, a relationship like that is pretty much doomed from the start. Especially, since there are plenty of 20 year-olds out there more than willing to get the job done.

          And the other obvious reason – life expectancy. While there are no guarantees for anything, chances are, a much older partner will be around a lot shorter amount of time than one her own age. Leaving her alone too soon to start the search for a partner all over again.

          In your opinion, a woman who has it all (a well-maintained body and looks, a great career, etc.) is making way too many demands when she’s asking for her equal (a man who has it all, in her age range), with nothing to offer in return.

          Your are obviously not a very proud male if you have to settle for someone with much lower standards.

          Perhaps, instead of trying to date someone (at least near my age group) similar to my average-looking, average income self, I should look for a date in some country where the culture would consider me a queen.

          Wouldn’t that be a nice boost to the ego? (not to mention so much easier). lol

        5. Nina

          Sylvana, you totally nailed it again. You are a great thinker! 🙂

      2. 11.1.2
        Al

        OMG. Where are all of these fine looking older men? The guys I keep meeting who are over 40 have massive beer guts, are balding and pale, as if they never bother to go out in the sun anymore. I live a very active, outdoor life and these guys huff and puff on even a beginner hiking trail. I doubt they’d even FIT into my kayak. It’s simply not true that men in general age better. That’s just the wishful thinking of older men who still think they can score with younger women. Look around you the next time you’re out in public and try to guess the ages of passersby. You’ll be underestimating the ages of at least half the women. Those who you think are 35 are probably over 40.  SOME older men are hot enough to attract younger women but they are very, very rare, which is why you hear guys on here touting the benefits of going to foreign countries to find women who are economically disadvantaged enough to consider them.  Seriously. You guys aren’t as sexy to us as you think you are. The OKC study reveals what women really think of men. We just overlook appearances more than men do for other qualities. We have no choice.

        1. Al

          George, you DO understand that James Bond is a fictional character, I hope. That’s not reality.  Sure, Roger Moore (the actor) is a very attractive guy. I never said there weren’t ANY sexy older men, just that they are very, very rare. I stand by that. celebrities are usually the 1% of the 1% as far as looks go. Normal people just don’t often look like that. And the bias against women in film is responsible for younger women being paired with older men. It’s only because old white men run the industry, not because famous women aren’t just as attractive, if not more so. Look at Christie Brinkley, She’s 59 and easily surpasses Moore at the same age. Iman is 57, Andy McDowell, 54 and Raquel Welch looks fabulous at 75!

        2. Buck25

          Sure you have a choice; share the few men who you think  are good looking enough to suit you. A for the rest of your stereotyping of older men, I’m 67, ; at , 5’9, 157, I can not only fit in your kayak, I can handle it too; how many class IV and class V rapids have you personally run? Ever done the Appalachian Trail (As in all of it, Maine to Georgia?) I have (in my late fifties). I’m not fat, I’m not bald,  I still have my own teeth, and no, I don’t need any little blue pill to get it up when I can find a woman attractive enough to make me give a damn. Don’t fret yourself though, I don’t date children; women under fifty aren’t old enough to date me. As for what women”really think of men”,  I hear the contempt and hatred loud and clear. I don’t think any man could read more than a couple of threads on this blog, and have any illusions about that (though how much of it is fact, and how much is a bunch of insecure B.S. bravado from some of the slightly past prime time distaff set here is an interesting matter for speculation).

          Don’t like my attitude? Don’t throw out stereotypes, and you won’t get it. I don’t toss out the ones about peri-menopausal and post menopausal women; I leave that to men who show the same kind of respect and class you just did. I just happen to not like getting lumped in with lazy slobs who don’t try to stay fit. By the way, since you have zero interest in older guys, just why the hell do you care who any of us date (or try to date)?

        3. Al

          Buck: You’ve misunderstood my message. I was engaging in a little hyperbole up there just to make a point. Thanks for taking the bait. See, men come on here and throw around truly disgusting stereotypes about how all women over a certain age are hags, while touting themselves as God’s Gift to the younger generations of women. Then, when a woman feeds them back their very own arguments you all freak out and throw hissy fits about “stereotypes” and try to sound all mature all of a sudden (reference your post).
           
          Um, yeah.  You use a totally different standard when a guy is speaking than you do when it’s a woman. That’s why I’m calling BS on your arguments above. If you actually believed any of that you’d be criticizing men for saying exactly the same things about us, but you never do that. You only defend them so it’s not about WHAT’S being said. It’s WHO’S saying it. In a different post you said, “You do get that I could take what you just said and apply it to some women online as well, right?” OK. Let’s try your suggestion. Take everything you just said to me, flip it, and apply it all to George. See how well it works? Perfect fit.
           
           
          See, the difference between men like you and George and me is that I am PERFECTLY aware of my expiration date. Many men seem to be totally and hypocritically unaware of theirs. I know very well that I’m going to get older, less attractive and more frail and so will my man. That’s how life breaks down and I’m cool with it. Then again, I’m not the one on here saying that older people of the opposite gender might as well be put out to pasture. That’s George. I date within my own age group, NOT 10 to 20 years younger. BOTH genders age and we ALL get less attractive. One gender doesn’t actually age better than the other. It’s all individual, involving genes to some degree and healthy habits as well.  

        4. Al

          Hey George, look when brilliant words Buck has for you…

           

          “I hear the contempt and hatred loud and clear. I don’t think any [woman] could read more than a couple of threads on this blog, and have any illusions about that (though how much of it is fact, and how much is a bunch of insecure B.S. bravado from some of the slightly past prime time distaff set here is an interesting matter for speculation).
          Don’t like my attitude? Don’t throw out stereotypes, and you won’t get it. I don’t toss out the ones about [midlife crisis patients] ; I leave that to women who show the same kind of respect and class you just did. I just happen to not like getting lumped in with lazy slobs who don’t try to stay fit. By the way, since you have zero interest in older women, just why the hell do you care who any of us date (or try to date)?

          Nice job Buck! You sure told him!

           

        5. Buck25

          Al,

          If you notice I didn’t give “George”  (whoever he is,) any words of approval either; he’s created a lot, if not all, of his own problems with his porn addiction, with a few other odds and ends thrown in for good measure. He’s not hurting anyone, except himself. I have no idea why any rational woman would care what he thinks or does; That would be like me actually caring what some 40year old woman who only dates college boys does. If anything, she’s her own enemy, not mine; her preferences have zero impact on me, since she’s not in my target group to begin with. Likewise here; nothing I can say to George, or any of the guys who want to go get themselves a young, Third-World mail order bride, beyond “If that’s what you want, go for it…and deal with whatever consequences ensue.” What gets said here is not going to change them (and I suppose if anything, it’s actually better for my own self interest if they do that; less competition for me)

          As for your comment, about throwing those stereotypes about older women around, I personally don’t do it, nor do I back up other guys doing it. I have , more than once, called out guys for doing exactly that, including one instance in another thread just the other day when a guy came in slinging all sorts of stuff about menopausal women being “bat shit crazy” among other things. I not only replied to him, I took the stereotypes and misinformation he posted apart, piece by piece, and informed him that I for one did not find his posting of what was clearly inflammatory (and largely inaccurate) stereotypical garbage helpful to anyone of either gender. I just don’t see age-based group attacks on either gender’s masculinity, femininity (or supposed lack thereof) as anything but stirring up more hate and contempt where there’s already enough misunderstanding, hurt and disillusionment.

          This is not a gender war, Al, except for those on both sides who want to make it one. But for a fortunate few, dating (especially online) is difficult, often hard to comprehend, and often laden with frustration and disappointment. A lot of time the results are painful for men and women alike. The anonymity of cyberspace lets us all treat people, even whole groups of people, in a way we wouldn’t in real life. Half the time (and this is both genders) we skim profiles so fast that we don’t even read and respect each other’s boundaries and preferences (hence my comment to Sandy). We don’t have to act like that, it usually doesn’t get us anything: but we do it anyway…because we can, because we’re frustrated with the opposite sex, so who cares how they feel, because we feel desperate…and every time we do that, we throw a few more coals on the fire. Then we come on here, maybe not feeling too charitable, someone says something we don’t like, and the first instinct too often is to immediately hit not the offending individual but the whole frustrating, amorphous “THEM” right where we think it will hurt the most.

          I don’t come on here, and bash all women over 35 or over 40. If I felt that way, why would I date the women I date, in their fifties and sixties, mostly? I get frustrated with some of them, feel bad for others, but some are also pretty nice attractive women, so I keep trying, even when it seems futile (as it often does).

          I get the fact that most women think most men aren’t attractive enough to turn them on. I won’t speculate as rot why, because I don’t think it matters, nor do I expect the attitude to be malleable; it is, what it is, and I don’t expect it gets any better as we age; experience tells me otherwise. Honestly, I don’t care to be the guy some woman decides to see if she”can make herself feel something for”; I’ll leave that to those with no self-respect. My only hope is that since women are not a monolith, any more than men are, one might come along who thinks I look presentable enough for her to actually be attracted to; who know, she might be someone I can be attracted to as well. If not, well, we can’t all win this game, can we?

        6. Al

          I steadfastly agree with almost everything you just said. The one thing I’ll point out is that, while you are correct that you didn’t offer George any approval, you also let HIS intolerant comments stand without any challenge at all. You only jumped into the fray when I (a woman) responded to his nasty criticisms with a dose of his own medicine. Essentially, you jumped on my reply while completely ignoring the original (and even more intolerant) comments from George that instigated it. This makes it seem as though you really only take issue with stereotypes and gender bashing when women do it, while letting men slide on the same behavior. If you did chime in on a dude in another thread then kudos to you. I’ve often spoken up to women on here as well when I thought they were being unfair. I guess the problem is that we only have the thread we’re actually on as a reference point.

        7. Buck25

          Al,

          Thank you. Now you wonder why I didn’t jump in on George’s case? First of all, he came in here like a caricature, and set himself up like a sitting duck for any of you with the gumption to take potshots at him at will. Second there were at least three women already in this thread (you, star thrower, and Henriette), who I know from experience are all more than capable of dealing with that particular version of  trolling (I believe that’s exactly what his intent was; if not, it was certainly a good imitation), and you did not appear to be having any difficulty doing just that. Third, the more he went on the better job he did of dismantling his own contentions about women; He was self-destructing rather well on his own, so I thought it best to just let him keep doing it.

          This was in contrast to the other thread I mentioned (wish I could locate it) where the poster in question came in under the guise of an apparently serious argument, and then proceeded to throw out one piece after another of misleading and downright inaccurate stereotype, presented as statistical “fact”. He was talking about something which is a current or recent issue for a number of the women in my life, including the ex-wife I still respect as a friend, a number of close women friends, and a girlfriend or two. So I was familiar, from a male point of view, with the truth of the matter, and I gave him a full rejoinder from exactly that perspective, because it seemed called for in the circumstances. I’ll do that just as readily as I jumped on what I felt was an over-generalized attack on older men as a group, from you. After all, you could have finished carving up George without resorting to that one (you were all doing just fine as it was).

          We all get angry, frustrated and resentful here at times and we could all stand to be a bit more restrained; let’s face it, we’re discussing some pretty sensitive issues. I expect garbage from the occasional provocateur (both genders) but what gets under my skin is unnecessary venom among regulars here who are usually better than that. We’ve all done it, or something close, occasionally, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good thing, or contributes anything worthwhile to the discussion.

        8. Andrea

          Al, started reading this thread you had going with these guys and I feel your pain. You sound like a very decent person trying to talk sense to a wall. These guys give validation to the feelings women are expressing in this article. Self entitlement and self gratification and arrogance aren’t attractive in either gender, guys or girls.

    2. 11.2
      Al

      That’s actually pretty sad George. You may be laughing now but I doubt you’ll find it all that amusing in a few years. Eventually, you won’t be hot enough yourself to rank with the Porn star level women and then you’ll be unable to get it up for anyone who’ll have you. You’ve internalized Porn’s unrealistic image of womanhood and now you’re unfit for a real woman. This is happening more and more as young men get hooked on internet porn, which is way harder and less reality based than anything our generation had. It’s ruining our boys for future romantic relationships. It’s pathetic.

      1. 11.2.1
        Buck25

        Uh-huh, Al,

        And maybe in a few years, you won’t be hot enough to attract men younger than the ones you so lovingly stereotyped. You also won’t be attractive to even those men either, not anymore. Better enjoy that power trip and hating and ridicule now; you won’t be doing it then. That’s when you get to feel rejection, that’s when you get to be invisible. After your snide comments earlier, I’d love to be a fly on the wall, and see how much you succeed dating after sixty five; you will get there, one day, and find that the only thing with a lower market value than an older man is a woman of that age; better hope you’re not single when that day comes, and all you get is ignored. I think there’s a certain rough justice in that, in the end.

        1. pat

          “…the only thing with a lower market value than an older man is a woman of that age.”

          What an awful thing to say.  All people human beings have value (market or otherwise).  I’m older now and in the “unattractive” age group of women (mid-30s).  I do my best to look nice, but I openly acknowledge that I’m not as cute as I was when I was mid-20s.  I’m always amazed when men are interested in me, as I’m sure there are more beautiful women they could pursue.

           

          But what I’ve realized is that some men value more than just looks.  If you are kind, funny, happy, and offer intelligent conversation, a surprising number of men will be interested, despite fading looks.  Some men enjoy talking to women who grew up in the same era – listening to the same music, watching the same shows, getting the same cultural references, etc.  Shame on you for superficial view of women.  I guarantee there women out there who are the same age as you who are also better looking than you.  Guarantee.

      2. 11.2.2
        Nat

        Al, I’m 99% sure George is bitter and purposely winding u up, and your falling for it. To be fair, it’s not very nice for men (any men, not just George) to hear that many women find so many of them unattractive. A lot of women have rather high standards with mates.

      3. 11.2.3
        Al

        Nat: I’m sure you’re absolutely correct that it’s not nice for men to hear that some women have very high standards for dates that would exclude them. It’s not nice for ANYONE to hear that, Man or Woman. That’s essentially my point. Maybe you’re right and George is just trolling us. That would explain a lot actually.

  12. 12
    Kelley

    We are all assuming you are heterosexual. Are you? Its perfectly ok if you are not. Maybe you don’t find most men attractive because you are not attracted to men period. Are you trying to force a square peg in a round hole?

  13. 13
    Gina

    at the end of the day when the pain of not having what you want becomes so strong you will find a way to find out what is really important to you and will see people in a different light, until then in my opinion you simply are not ready

    1. 13.1
      Will

      Sometimes someone comes into a conversation and states a simple, clear principle from which all other things can be derived. This is it.

  14. 14
    Theo

    Lots of men share the problem of not finding the vast majority of women very attractive. More precisely, as a general rule, men over 45 or so are not attracted to women in their own age. This is a man’s dilemma: being attracted to younger women that you cannot get while feeling no chemistry for women your age that might be into you — lol

    1. 14.1
      Joseph

      This is SO true. The only thing that solves this problem: fitness for your age and money/personality. No way out, unless you go foreign. Then these age issues go away unless you’re past 65-70.

      1. 14.1.1
        starthrower68

        I would have a difficult time believing that American women Are all that bothered or threatened by American men going overseas. Most people just go on with their lives and don’t lose too much sleep over that sort of thing.

        1. Yeah right

          I’ve yet to see one of these “foreign women are better” guys that wasn’t hideous and/or possessing a wretched personality.

        2. fireice

          The only older, 46 yrs old, guy I know who married a foreign younger woman, is a man with a crappy personality.

          He did date women in his 30s, 40s, but not even women his same age wanted him. He is a friend of my brother’s. I’d never date this man either.

          So now everyone knows him as the guy with the mail-order bride. The poor woman had to accept him in exchange for a better life in the U.S.

          The mail-order bride sacrificed herself. She told me she is able to send money to her parents, nieces and nephews.

          No one believes she loves him, of course. He has a nasty personality, and not attractive at all.

           

          It wouldn’t surprise me if she divorces him after she is stable enough to make her own money here without needing him.

      2. 14.1.2
        beachgal

        Yeah Right,

        So I’m actually going through this now.  I found out my pseudo boyfriend has been going to Kiev.  This is not a hideous looking man.  Handsome, Accomplished, Multi Lingual, Pilot, etc.  Great in bed.  I can only think it’s an emotional response to something in his past.  There are many opportunities here.  I’m thinking there is some kind of Hero Worship that is felt with these foreign women.  That men find them to be so grateful and American women spoiled.  Not sure what they mean by that.  I’m certainly not spoiled.  But he is 57 and I know he feels this is his last chance.  This just really disappointed me.

    2. 14.2
      alreadygotmycitizenship

      I went to college 2006, with a handful of European women – who were all getting school and rent etc. financed by their much older husbands. They seemed to want the same things from American men- ” I vont fake boobs, veneers, bmw, designer jeans… etc” ALL of them have since divorced. The women are now with guys there own age. It can work,… for about five years, with these conditions met. Not happily ever after, so long as you get that is probable outcome….

      1. 14.2.1
        alreadygotmycitizenship

        i meant “their” ,so there 🙂

      2. 14.2.2
        Nicole

        It’s hilarious that men are able to delude themselves that just b/c the price to pay is cheaper overseas, it means that the women really don’t care about looks or money. Um, they care about money and green cards, it’s just that as you said, they get what they came for and leave.
        I saw an article in the NY Times about all of these middle class men who were married to women in South Asia and it was funny b/c a lot of them moved there for their 20 something brides and found that they become the ATM not just for the supposedly non-materialistic foreign bride but also for her whole family. The article was so funny. Again the only difference is that it was retired skilled tradespeople and union guys whose pensions gave them enough cache for gold diggers on other continents.
        I’ve also seen documentaries with these clueless, delusional men who are pawing at some unfortunate mail-order bride who clearly is repulsed but has come, sometimes with a child in tow, for a chance at a better life, even though the man she is married to clearly nauseates her.

        1. Henriette

          Hah – I completely agree, Nicole. When I hear/ read Western men complaining about the materialistic women from their own countries, I realise that what they’re really upset about is not that these women are shallow but that they (the complaining men) can’t afford the “price of admission”. When they find 2nd- and 3rd-world women l~ who expect financial support but simply at a lower level ~ that they can afford, they feel proud of “shelling out,” like they are big tycoons.

          I’d have a lot more respect for these guys if they were honest: “It makes me feel bad about myself that I’m not rich enough to buy the affections of a younger, more attractive gold digger from my own country. Thank heavens there are plenty of places in the world where even my salary seems relatively impressive, and where conditions are so unsavoury that pretty young women will sell themselves for the chance of a more stable future.”

          http://www.mythaibridefilm.com/story/

        2. Chance

          Say what you want about the men who come around here and put down Western women in favor of marrying Eastern European or South Asian women. You’ll get no push-back from me. That said, a lot of men who explore these options are not men who proudly claim that “Western women have nothing to offer”. Many of these men are well-meaning, but they never acquired the necessary social skills to know how to even begin to talk to a woman, which is certainly a skill to be learned. I don’t think it really has to do with willingly paying a (lower) price for a foreign PYT over a nice woman their own age who would like to date them at home. Those women don’t exist for them at home. I actually work with a guy who is trying to do this. Good person, but I suppose he spent his entire life studying and generally working hard to get to where he is that he never took the time to step out of his comfort zone while growing up. He has to know what he’s getting into, but I guess a few years of female companionship is worth blowing what he’s earned to this point. It’s sad, and I think it’s an important distinction to consider before you get your kicks out of other people’s misfortunes.

        3. Henriette

          @Chance. I don’t get my kicks from the misfortunes of good-hearted guys who genuinely can’t make a go of it with Western women because of inadequate social skills. You are right; my disdain is reserved for the kind of men who come to this site ~ where most women are trying their best to learn how to be better daters and partners ~ and tell us that we are entitled, fat, slutty and greedy but that foreign women will treat them like kings.

        4. Nicole

          @Chance, the men I’m talking about in these articles and documentaries all went on the record to slam how awful and shallow and materialistic Western women were. So it’s hardly amusing myself with anyone’s misfortune so much as not feeling sorry for misogynists who thought they could find a “hot” and young woman to control by changing countries.
          Also, in the case of a man who decided to make a business after finding his “superior” Russian bride, he set up parties of men who flew over to Russia with the exact same mentality, and the result was a lot of women under 30 who had been told they were meeting men their own age and who were shocked to find out that the men were all 20+ years older than them. The translator captured their (justified) disappointment. And the handful of women who were mid to late 30s found themselves ignored. It was pretty gross. The men believe that these very young women don’t care about “looks and money” and the women think they are at least going to meet American men who are their chronological peers instead of men who are old enough to be their dads.
          So yeah, if not sympathizing with them somehow makes ME a bad person, so be it.

        5. Yeah right

          LOL sounds like a guy friend of mine who’s sweet foreign girl half his age milked him out of his life savings. When they were dating it was family members back home dying every month and the family needing money for the funerals. Then she claimed to be pregnant (even though the timing of her pregnancy based on when he was there visiting her would have been impossible) after he “did the right thing” and married her, she just happened to miscarry. You can imagine how this ended. She’s back in her home country with all his dough probably scamming on the next sucker and he’s broke with no savings and starting over at 50.

          Now granted he wasn’t one of those I hate american women so I’m getting a child bride to be my maid and sex slave types. He truly loved her and I do feel sorry for him. But this story is not uncommon.

        6. Josh

          I’m sure their are lots of guys who lack social skills who can’t attract an American woman, and go for mail order brides.  It may make you feel better to believe that all of those comments are from those guys, but I think you are wrong and many of them are successful men who enjoy traveling and meeting foreign women.

          Women in every country in the world are thinner than American women, so a fit American guy, with or without social skills, can attract a more attractive woman than he is likely to in the USA.

           

    3. 14.3
      Al

      Good Grief. Are you really that unaware of the benefits of a real, adult relationship with a caring partner who values you? I sincerely hope you come to understand before you’re in your 70s and are at the end of your life all alone. I mean, I suppose its possible to live life without any awareness of the value of more than half the human population but it seems like it would be very unfulfilling. No matter. It’s your journey and your lesson to learn (or not). Nothing I can ever say will dent your porn addled misconceptions of women. Only life experience and wisdom can do that.

  15. 15
    twinkle

    Hmm her case is extreme, but I believe many women have this problem although to a lesser extent. Personally–& I doubt I’d ever say this in real life–it’s only a minority of men that I -instaantly- find physically attractive (as in thinking “Ooh that stranger looks good”).

    But like many women, I’ve had the experience many times of chatting to a guy by chance, and finding him much more attractive half an hour later. This doesn’t seem to happen for SG and I think that’s a big part of the problem.

    I happen to be lucky enough to be dating one of those guys that looked hot to me from the moment I saw him. And he’s a warm-hearted good guy too. But because guys with those looks are in the minority, they’re quite coveted as partners, and I think if SG had a hot boyfriend, her mind (which is already not the healthiest) would go into insecure overdrive. (I know because on tests on attachment styles, I score Very high on being secure, yet even I occasionally feel insecure about dating a hot guy). Basically Evan is right about her needing some time of counselling or other psychological help because with this mindset, it’s really hard for her to achieve happiness, whether she’s dating a hot guy (by her very stringent criteria) or not.

    On the bright side, at least SG has already benefitted lots from therapy in her life, and knows how useful it can be.

  16. 16
    Cheezpuff

    This is me to an extent, including the eating disorder as a young person, minus the messed up family – I have great parents and strong relationships with them. I am told that I am quite attractive, I don’t have an issue getting dates. A lot of men are unappealing, including most celebrities. Facial hair is a huge turnoff. When I found a man that I found reasonably attractive (but other women would say he was very attractive) and he had a few other things in order, I married him at a very young age. Twentysome years later, I am divorced and now looking again. As a young person, I only dated the very best looking guys. Thankfully, they liked me back. I remember sitting with my girlfriends and looking at yearbooks and they would point at cute guys and I’d be confused – I couldn’t differentiate much, and then later, only the most handsome stood out.

    If I wasn’t repelled by them, I found that kissing them really helped. So I would start the intimacy sooner than I might want to. Once they were into me, that was a huge turn on. I had to focus on character traits (funny, smart, kind, hard working) I have ‘fallen in love’ since divorcing…at least in the chemical sense..gotten very attached to two men who were not off the charts attractive, but were definitely off the charts successful and interesting, and pretty cute by other women’s standards. They turned out to be emotionally unavailable types (one was probably a narcissist), but I wasn’t choosing for commitment early in the game. I nearly forced myself to like these two, and then became quite into them.

    As a side note, I do like my space, and my husband was initially mostly a long distance relationship. My family of origin was not super affectionate, but when I do like someone, I am highly sexual and affectionate.

    My daughters report the same problem, and one prefers women. I think women are more attractive, but I don’t think I could fall in love with one and I am not interested in them sexually.

    All this is weird, I know. I am on a guy-atus and adjusting my picker, and just enjoying being unattached and trying to grow as a person.

  17. 17
    Andrea

    Try spending a fortnight in Italy and see if you still feel the same.

    1. 17.1
      Interested

      Interesting that you say that. I took a vacay to Europe a few years back with my size 0 or 2 fit friend, that I affectionately nicknamed a “blond bitch goddess” since she had American men falling at her feet at all times and was generally bitchy or uninterested in them, thus causing them to want her even more. She was quite irritated during this trip when the men in Paris, and most especially, Rome and other parts of Italy were falling all over themselves to meet me and didn’t give her the time of day. Finally, in Rome, after being ignored one too many times she pulled me aside and said she didn’t intend to insult me but why were all the men attracted to me and not to her at all. I explained that perhaps it had something to do with the artwork all over Europe reflecting my “rubanesque” figure rather than her teensy, aerobicized skeletal frame. That and the fact that I was smiling and open towards them instead of projecting miles of bitchy “don’t dare to think you have a chance” attitude. I was having the time of my life. She, not so much.

      1. 17.1.1
        Yeah right

        Wait…you mean American men are shallow and intimidated? No way!!! LOL!

      2. 17.1.2
        CC

        Her eating disorder was making her cranky. Hunger hurts. Interesting she can’t even conceive of a man preferring a happy woman with some flesh. Shock!

    2. 17.2
      Deborah

      So funny! When I spent two weeks in Italy a few years ago, I was deep into a dating drought in the US. There was just *nothing* happening!

      From the minute I set foot in Italy I had men falling all over me. I’m blonde and bubbly and I’d been “warned” about Italian men. But it wasn’t like that at all. They were charming and respectful and funny and smart. Did I mention charming? *Definitely.* I had so much fun and returned home with my dating mojo in high gear.

      I highly recommend Italy for getting your groove back! 😉

    3. 17.3
      Henriette

      Ha. Well, this just illustrates that attraction varies wildly from person to person. Some men come to this board to explain how superior foreign women are to locals. Many of us scoff at them for these views.

      I have no issue with some north American women finding Italian men attractive. But I’ve spent plenty of time in Italy and they were not my cup of tea in the least: Catholic mamas’-boys who spend more time in front of the mirror/ shoe shopping than I do. I don’t get my dating mojo groove back when I go to Italy; I return home thankful that I live somewhere that flirting is not considered an Olympic sport and men know they look can look great in a pair of levis and warm smile. I might have the Letter Writer’s problem if I lived in Italy…

  18. 18
    Stacy

    If I had a penny for every woman who has complained about this problem…although not to the extreme as the OP.

    I too rarely find men older than me attractive (I am 37 years old). And, I don’t find younger men mentally attractive. It doesn’t help that I do draw a lot of attention based on my looks so I have a strong idea of how attractive I am.

    You know what I did? I started to look for other qualities IF the attraction is at least a 6. I realize that we can’t always have it all and finally, I am okay with that. But, I still have to be able to have the ability to want to kiss you and I have to be able to at least fathom that you can touch me without me being grossed out. I realize that chemistry is overratted but we need a healthy amount of it. Shucks, my ex husband was the quintessential 6’4″ pretty boy and obviously it did not work out. However, I must admit, that if the physical attraction is not intense, he has to have a heck of a personality and has to score higher on other qualities.

    I am surprised though that at 28 years old, the OP isn’t finding more men attractive as she has a wide pool to choose from (both younger and older).

  19. 19
    Alena

    if a man finds most (all?) women unattractive he is usually gay, or latently homosexual, why shouldn´t the same apply to women who find men unacttractive. Maybe she should experiment more and find out what she is actually attracted to. life is short, don´t waste it on what people expect you to be or do!

  20. 20
    SAL9000

    I’ve seen this times o’ plenty. IME the reasons have been:

    1.) Burned out on dating
    2.) Denying material confirmation that one isn’t as attractive as they think they are or once were
    3.) Problems elsewhere in life (career, health, social)
    4.) Deep/clinical mental problems

    1. 20.1
      starthrower68

      SAL9000, burned out period….😔

  21. 21
    MilkMae

    I don’t know her underlying issues but I’ve heard this before. People come up with all kinds of excuses, the timing is not right, I can’t find anyone, I can’t make a connection, no one asks me out, I attract the wrong people, I’m too shy, I don’t find any one attractive, I’m busy with work, I want to see the world,…
    The real excuse is “I don’t value a relationship enough to foster a relationship”. She even says ” I’m not too bothered about finding someone in the next couple of years”. Unfortunately, the woman in question is single and past adolescence (adolescence can last well into your 20’s). So the chances that she will change and a relationship will become a priority in her life will shrink with each passing day.

  22. 22
    ken tanaka

    Haha.. yeah maybe just her preference for prefer women over men,

  23. 23
    The Good Doctor

    I had a similar quandary at that age and ended up with men that were not that attractive to me physically, but who were charismatic and comedic. These men were very easy to leave once they had settled in and gotten comfortable in the relationship and were no longer in the CATCH A MATE stage. As mentioned by several female posters, I have a very, very high sex drive. I am not bipolar, which is strongly linked with increased drive. The older I get, the more vital it is that a man be physically and sexually alluring to me. With my ex husband, I remember thinking…how many drinks before I can kiss him? I am wondering if this is not a God given mechanism??? Just as men are attracted to a fertile looking women, it seems I am attracted to younger and younger, healthy, virile men, as their seed is what is needed as a women ages. In my twenties and even into my thirties, I was nowhere near where I am sensually and sexually…almost insatiable at this point.

    1. 23.1
      zephyrprime

      A man’s seed is the same whether he is old or young.

      1. 23.1.1
        Christine J Sojka

        The problem is in most cases NO ONE CARES TO HAVE “THEIR SEED.”

      2. 23.1.2
        Carol

        Actually, a man’s seed deteriorates faster than a woman’s eggs.  The carrier of most fetal autism is almost always the man.  Older sperm heightens the incidence of fetal autism.  I doubt Evan will let anything that shows men to be less than perfect pink unicorns be posted, but here is peer-vetted science:

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Rule #1: Don’t insult the host of the blog
          Rule #2: Don’t misrepresent what the host says.
          Rule #3: Don’t ever question whether the host will let respectful debate or facts through because he always does.

          If you don’t like me or my advice, the Internet is a big place. Go find a blog that is more to your liking. I don’t come to your workplace and tell you how much you suck. I’d appreciate it if you treated me with similar respect.

        2. Carol

          What a person exists in and believes will be reflected back to them.  Consistently.  It’s also what will make them the most angry and defensive.

          Food for thought.

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          When you act offensively to me, it only stands to reason that you’re putting me on the defensive. I’m very comfortable in my skin, with the advice I give, happily married and helping millions of women understand men for free. If I trigger you, perhaps you are the one who needs to look internally. Best of luck to you.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          “I doubt Evan will let anything that shows men to be less than perfect pink unicorns be posted”

          Furthermore, this entire blog is a testament to accepting the imperfections of men. Some men are shy. Some are cheap. Some are clueless. Some are inexperienced. Some don’t know what makes you tick. Some are short-sighted and selfish. Some are flirtatious. Pretty much all I’ve ever said is that there is a broad range of “normal” behaviors that one should try to accept and, if you can’t accept it, then leave. I still have no idea what is controversial about such a stance, but clearly, I bristle when I read such false hostile remarks, and refuse to let them stand without a response.

      3. 23.1.3
        fireice

        Wrong. It’s been scientifically shown that a man’s sperm starts to develop mutations as the man ages.

         

        It starts as early as age 25 yr old, very small mutations. By age 35, 40, there have developed a great deal of mutations the older he is.  His children will also pass this flaws to their own future children.

        Some are related to a higher risk of schizophrenia as adults, and increased risk of autism.

    2. 23.2
      fireice

      I sort of agree, it benefits a woman’s offspring to mate with a younger man. Healthier see.

  24. 24
    Lu-lu

    With all due respect to people who do not understand the issue but still trying to explain it : unfortunately you do not know what it is like to feel no attraction for any one… or maybe once in a blue moon..

    I am like that too. I KNOW my type, I know what attraction is and what chemistry feels like, I have high sex drive, I ‘m perfectly healthy, I love myself and I am open to having a relationship, I have good self-esteem. I can assess attractiveness/ chemistry within 5 seconds of a meeting. IT IS EITHER THERE OR IT IS NOT. You cannot manufacture chemistry. I TRIED to date guys I hade no attraction for – it turned into disaster. By date 3 I felt so depressed, angry and frustrated, I could not just take it anymore.. What kid of date is it if you are feeling down and like you just wasted 2 hrs of you life that will never be back? I could not do it to myself. .

    So, with that being said, I am already expecting to be alone for the rest of my life, lonely, miserable, sexually frustrated and I will probably die alone too.
    I think what I ( or some women have) has no cure. Maybe its a curse. Thanks for reading.

    1. 24.1
      Sharon

      I’m with you Lu-lu. It’s all about great friends and better sex toys. But yeah I really feel you on the anger. I caved into the pressure and was really trying to make it work with this one perfectly good on paper guy. By the end I was fantasizing about crushing his head between my thighs to get through sex. I felt like that wasn’t a good sign. lol I don’t know why or how but god unmerited I HATE I feel when I’m trying to force it. Its all consuming and toxic.

      1. 24.1.1
        CC

        That’s hilarious. Thanks for sharing!

    2. 24.2
      Karmic Equation

      Lulu & Sharon,

       

      Don’t date guys you don’t find “cute”. The lowest you should go is “Well, I could kiss him” in looks. Do not ever date a guy you think you can’t kiss.

       

      It’s well and good to date men you find “nice”, but if you can’t envision kissing him, it definitely is a waste of time. Don’t put yourself through that.

      1. 24.2.1
        John McDonald

        “Don’t put yourself through that.”

        More importantly, don’t put the men through it.  No one wants to be stuck on a date with someone who isn’t into you and is just wasting your time.

      2. 24.2.2
        Lisa Carter

        Agreed.  I just told a guy I had several dates with that we should be friends because Im not attracted.  I couldn’t imagine kissing him or touching.  He treated me well after dating a whole string of jerks so it was hard.

  25. 25
    Sass

    @Scott “The typical female can have 70-90% of men “on demand.” I SO wish that men would stop spreading this blatant lie. If the typical female to you is a 20 something, thin, attractive blonde, then yes. That’s maybe 2 percent of the population. Overweight women, women who aren’t conventionally attractive, women who don’t fit the standard beauty mold (including women of color), older women, etc. (you know, the other 98 percent) can not have 90% of the male population on demand. Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

    1. 25.1
      Christine J Sojka

      Who WANTS 80% of the population.Even MORE than that are just sexually desperate losers.

      1. 25.1.1
        Tyrone

        I think if you genuinely feel that over 80% of men are sexually desperate losers, the problem may lie with you.

  26. 26
    EV

    This was a good post for me to read. I too have a similar issue, except that the men that I’m extremely attracted to are always average looking but narcissistic, some have been losers, all of them emotionally immature in many ways idiotic, and yet my father is nothing like that. At one time I had very low self-esteem, and therefore, at one time, it made more sense. I too went through years of therapy. Fast forward, I’m living a wonderful independent life with my daughter in Italy. I’m carefree, I have fun with friends and girlfriends… I always used to end up with guys with little education, but that wasn’t working out so I worked my way up to dating CEO’s. But guess what, I found the screwed up ones, and understanding why they’re single becomes obvious rather quickly. They’re often just downright immature and when I find myself telling these stories to my girlfriends, I actually feel stupid for having picked these men in the first place. I too, like SG walk away because I catch on rather quickly. I don’t pick men over my league, I pick men way under my league and continue to be blind to it over and over again. I now have a saying, “If I like you, it’s because you’re sick in the head”. Yes, I admit it. I must be sick too.. I’ve also dissected my brain in a thousand tiny bits in every way possible, with a therapist, without one, books, yoga, self-help semiars.. I love myself, A LOT. I love my life A LOT. I no longer take crap from guys.. but it still hasn’t fixed my dating life, in fact, my stand against bad men has left me with no sex life, at all. I’ve given nice guys a chance, but that always ends in disaster because all of those guys ended up being cuckoo as well (some of them abusive, stalker-like behavior), I walked away from those guys as well. Thus, I have become the queen of dumping… but where does that leave me. I’m tired and I think finding the right guy is going to be nearly impossible. 

  27. 27
    jocelyn

    Thank you for writing this. I have a similar issue. Having worked extensively to heal from an abusive family with success, having an esteemed job as a yoga therapist, an above average IQ and considered to have desirable futures, balanced body/high cheek bones, I find it difficult to meet a man that matches me completely. I’m 25 and want to be with someone that I can grow with, that has the same entrepreneurial spirit as I do, shares ethics and determination. Most men in my age group feel very confused about their parents values, what to do in the world and look to me to be their therapist. As anyone who has gone through therapy knows, you can’t date your patients.

  28. 28
    Christine J Sojka

    Actually almost EVERY female out there who dates & gets married DATES & MARRIES GUYS THEY FIND UNATTRACTIVE.MOST FEMALES WHO DATE & MARRY ONLY DO THIS FOR FINANCIAL REASONS & THEY FAKE ATTRACTIONS TO GUYS THEY HATE OR COULD CARE LESS ABOUT TO GET THE MONEY THEY NEED FOR THEM & THEIR CHILDREN OR JUST THEM.ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOOK AT THE UNATTRACTIVE GUYS THE MARRIED FEMALES HAVE AS HUSBANDS.EXAMPLE:WOULD YOU WANT TO DATE DR.PHIL? I DOUBT IT.WOULD YOU WANT TO DATE & MARRY KAYNE WEST? I DOUBT IT.WOULD YOU WANT TO DATE & MARRY O.J.? I DOUBT IT.WOULD YOU WANT TO DATE & MARRY GUY RICHIE? I DOUBT IT.HOWEVER EACH ONE OF THESE UNATTRACTIVE GUYS ARE EITHER MARRIED OR HAVE BEEN MARRIED.WHY? BECAUSE MOST FEMALES WHO MARRY MARRY UNATTRACTIVE GUYS IF THEY HAVER A USE FOR THEM.NOT BECAUSE THEIR ATTRACTED TO THEM.

    1. 28.1
      Al

      Correction: SOME people of both genders choose mates for shallow reasons. Do you think Kanye and OJ picked their trophy wives because they were nice, kind, decent people? I DOUBT IT. Some people are drawn to looks. Some are drawn to power or money. Most of us are not celebrities or millionaires and so applying those standards to regular people is totally absurd.

      1. 28.1.1
        Christine J Sojka

        Actually it’s NOT ubsurd.Kayne West married Kim Kardasian for the same reason she married her.PUBLICITY.Also OJ’s wives weren’t “trophy wives.”More like just convenient holes.Also it’s not ubsurd to compare  non celebrities to celebrities when it comes to the reason most people marry.:Most people (celebrity or otherwize) DONT MARRY PEOPLE THEY’RE ATTRACTED TO.They marry people they have a USE for.Mainstream celebrities marry people no one’s attracted to (including the mainstream celebrity) for PUBLICITY.Non famous people marry people they’re not attracted to for money or sex.

      2. 28.1.2
        Al

        George,  you just made several posts about how men with money can get young girls, referenced Hefner and Ron Jeremy as though they were your personal idols and said you were heading to Thailand when you’re older to score with the nubile 19 yr old hotties when you’re 75 in an “Older Man’s Paradise” because relationships are essentially for suckers and hedonism is your thing. Never mind that those girls will also be gagging when they touch you just like the aforementioned lady on the Bachelor. If that’s what you want, go for it, but yuck. I’d never want to be with someone who felt that way about me. I know damn well I’m worth more than that.

         

        Anyway, now you’re trashing those same young gold digging women that you profess to want because they’re doing exactly what you wish them to? There’s a serious disconnect there friend. A whole pile of hypocrisy as well. If you intend to use money when you’re an old man to entice younger women then you’re pretty much a failure as a human being if you then blame THEM for taking you up on it. Can’t have it both ways. If you want  to purchase shallow hook ups instead of genuine caring you’d best have something to offer as payment or those women go bye bye.  You said in another post that there’s no way to know if romantic love is just a myth. Sorry to be the one to inform you of this, but millions of people have experienced it so there’s plenty of proof that it’s very real, for some people anyway. I suspect that you are well aware of all this anyway deep down inside and secretly long for that connection. I sincerely hope you find it one day. Don’t give up growing and striving to become wiser. I believe you can get there. Stranger things have happened.

      3. 28.1.3
        Al

        “Women are incapable of such parsing deconstruction?” Oh dear Lord, what a patronizing, smug hypocrite you are. You are, admittedly, likely to be a sociopath who can’t properly bond with other people and yet you come on here and sanctimoniously lecture we women on our shortcomings? I’d laugh if you weren’t such a pathetic basket case. You sir are in no way qualified to speak about relationships. You’re not even capable of having one, with a women anyway. I haven’t seen such latent Homosexuality being expressed since Starsky and Hutch. Dude, listen to the way you talk about the men you admire like they’re some shimmering Adonises, then compare that to how you speak about women. I completely support the LGBT community so I’m not trying to disparage them or you in any way by pointing that out. It’s just so blatantly obvious that it couldn’t be overlooked. I’m being 100% serious when I tell you, with all the compassion I can muster, George, you are a sexually confused man with a deep hatred of women and I think you could really benefit from seeing a good therapist.

      4. 28.1.4
        Karmic Equation

        You need to read “Sex at Dawn” by Christopher Ryan, George.
        What you paint as a positive, that men can specifically tell you what he wants, comes down to the fact that men are “imprinted” with their wants and can’t adapt. While women, on the other hand, CAN adapt due to their neuroplasticity.
        The experiment was with sheep and goats.
        Male sheep and female sheep were raised with goats.
        After puberty, these male and female sheep were rehoused with other sheep.
        The male sheep were not at all interested in the female sheep. The were interested in the female goats. Meanwhile, the female sheep had no issues with either male goats or male sheep.
        This explains why when women experiment with same-sex relationships in college or when drunk or when in porn, they don’t have any lasting negative perceptions of their own sexuality. Straight men often cannot have homosexual experiences and still have positive views of their sexuality. In fact, most men start questioning their sexuality.
        In any case, I found the book fascinating, and one of the most interesting points is that men are attracted to what they’re attracted to and often CANNOT change. While women are more flexible in what they find attractive.
        You can spin a man’s ability to “parse deconstructively” to be something admirable in men, but in my opinion, that’s what limits and prevents him from finding true love. I feel sorry for men in this regard.

    2. 28.2
      Buck25

      What a sweet, loving  attitude. Hope it’s working out well for ya! Meanwhile, have another cup of “hater-aide”, and tell us what you really think!

      1. 28.2.1
        Buck25

        Sorry Karmic, that was aimed at Christine J s. ‘s post above; don’t know how it ended up here!

  29. 29
    DJ

    I’m a 27 year old man. Since I turned 26 I realized I didn’t find 90% of women very attractive. I have a very particular range of physical types of women that I’m into. I’m not really into what most guys think is pretty. I have strange tastes. Anyway, the point is it is maybe once every couple months if not longer that I actually see a woman that really captivates me. Because of this over selectiveness I also find it hard to have chemistry or find anyone to be with.

  30. 30
    Sandy

    Men constantly complain about women on dating sites not being attractive enough for their liking (at least the only ones that will answer their mail), but what are the men on dating sites doing to make themselves appealing to women? Nothing! If I see one more guy holding up a dead fish or having his face licked by a dog… It’s not her, it’s the men on dating sites, most ARE very unattractive, as it is “attractive” on a dating site is “average” IRL, at best. Most guys just don’t care about themselves and by extension about the women they date, I mean would you show up to a date in greasy work clothes? Yet these are the photos they upload of themselves, and women are supposed to go for that? The lack of effort is profoundly disrespectful, it says “you aren’t worth putting on a clean shirt and taking a decent photo for”, a lot of them show up for dates like that too, and late, it’s one giant couldn’t care less stream of “you women aren’t worth the effort”, and there are so, so many just like that, water everywhere and not a drop to drink, it’s mind numbingly common. Add to that what men put on their blah profiles and the lame “Hi” messages and you have a recipe for annihilating a woman’s libido.

    She just needs to get off the net and go out and meet real people and faith will be restored. You can’t force attraction, lowering her standards and going out with someone she doesn’t fancy and who is lukewarm (as they inevitably are) is just going to end up in a messy break up over the long term, it’s patronizing to the guy too, who wants to be Mr “you’ll do”? or Mr “my girl ran off with the milkman” because sooner or later she will meet someone she fancies and with a “blah” “Hi” dead fish holding commitment phobic partner when he comes along she is going to be out of there so fast!

    1. 30.1
      Al

      I couldn’t agree more with this post! Just yesterday, I got two “dead fish” pictures AND a dead turkey! What exactly is it that these guys are trying to communicate to the women, that they can provide food after the Zombie Apocalypse? I can go down to the local grocery store and buy a turkey! It’s like they are trying more to appeal to other men. I see a metric ton of profile photos of men with their cars or on their motorcycles, trying WAY too hard to look tough. They need to reevaluate who they are trying to attract here, a muscle bound biker or a lady. Oh, and putting pictures of themselves surrounded by hot looking women is also a big no-no. To a guy that makes him look like a stud but to a woman he just comes off as a player. Really, what all of this tells women is that these guys are so dim they think if they like dead fish a woman will too. Um, not so much. We see a man who doesn’t have a clue about what a woman thinks or needs.

      1. 30.1.1
        Sandy

        I know, every time I see it I can picture him tossing a dead animal on the kitchen table, saying “there you go luv” like I’ve been waiting around all day to cook something. The dead animal theme on a mans profile is like the equivalent of me standing in a kitchen holding up a fry pan, partly nurturing and mildly threatening.

        What’s worse is the guys holding up hand guns (which are mostly illegal where I live and generally associated with organised crime). Worse again the ones who display a collection like they’re stock piling, I don’t think the “report” button is enough to cover that one.

        The guys with their arms around girls just remind me guys used to come up and ask if they could have their photo taken with us. Struck me as odd at the time but not outside the realm of possibility (I used to work at events), now I know where those photos went. Having women in photos is in the “pick up artist” online profile photos list. Same as “alpha male” action shots of them commanding a room, doing something extreme or posing with status symbols.

        Bikes don’t do it for a lot of women, some of us make jokes about rising petrol prices making bikes the new little red sports cars. Displays of status look like they’re building a case to call women “gold diggers” when something doesn’t go their way.

        Some of the photos have made me laugh though, like the beefcake shots with the guy posing like a Chippendale, or the stern surly look authors on book jackets back in the ’80’s, you’d hope they were being ironic and had a sense of humour but unfortunately no (don’t these guys have any women friends who could take some nice shots?). A few get it right but generally humour doesn’t come off so well online because you can’t tell if they’re kidding.

        I think in a lot of cases it’s sheer laziness, a lot think putting up a profile means you’re the one chasing and that no one wants you (they wish). They figure you’ll settle for something eventually no matter how bad, like it’s dating musical chairs or something, and all they have to do is wait till the music stops. They don’t get if women were inclined to settle they already have that option offline, they’re online looking for a better man than the ones who are approaching them offline. Women aren’t going to give up being single just for the sake of being partnered, not for a guy who does nothing but take and complain, and especially not for one who is abusive (so many of the ones who indiscriminately message women online are). I do know the difference between online and off for me is stark, offline guys race to meet me and watch their P’s and Q’s, they go out of their way to make an impression; online it’s like “meh” from the same standard of guys and a lot of nastiness when I don’t jump at “Hi”.

        1. Buck25

          Sandy,

          You do get that I could take what you just said and apply it to some women online as well, right? If I were inclined to “settle” for some woman older and uglier than myself, I could do that offline, too, right? But since I’m there, the most hideous, (and I do mean hideous) old women on the site get to spam my inbox, just the way those guys spam yours, and guess what? I like it just as much as you do, which is to say, I don’t. The difference here, is that you can come here and bitch about it, to a chorus of approval, but when I bitch about it here, I’m “being mean”. Well, what’s sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander, and if women are gong to complain about unwanted attention from men they see as “undesirable” I’m going to complain when I get the same treatment from women I see as “undesirable”. I finally had one too many of those, at the wrong time, and for once, I’m mad as hell, and I’m not gonna just sit and take it anymore. I may even start sending back some of the same nasty emails some of you send when you’re offended by attention from someone who didn’t bother to read the age preference in your profile. That happens again, and I’m going to ask the sender whether or not she can read and count! I think that’s fair.

      2. 30.1.2
        Karmic Equation

        Men don’t normally like being in pictures. They do it to appease their loved ones. Usually a woman or his kids.

         

        So when a (newly) single man has to post pictures for OLD, most pictures that DON’T include kids or exes are usually of him hanging out and doing things with his guy friends, that commemorate a special occasion or of “something” he’s particularly proud of: that big fish he caught; that big turkey he hunted.

         

        If you don’t like hunting, next the man. But don’t read anything into it other than the fact he doesn’t have any pictures without the ex and kids.

         

        And the pix with hotties? Ofttimes those hotties are their daughters, nieces, etc.

         

        Don’t read anything into the photographs. Take them at face value. If you otherwise like the man’s profile, ask a question. “Where did you hunt down that turkey?” “Amazing gun collection. Do you actually own all those guns?”

         

        If you don’t like his profile, just next him. Assuming he’s trying to send you some sort of subliminal message with his pix is giving him WAY too much credit.

        1. Sandy

          I can empathize with men getting back into dating, and online is a steep learning curve, but there’s a difference between not knowing any better and not caring.

          Men who have a 30 something “hottie” daughter in photos are my parents age, they’d have better luck getting a reply if they took the picture with their hottie son 🙂

          Offers aren’t the problem for me, it’s the quality, it’s not a process of finding but of eliminating, narrowing things down to the serious candidates. There are more than enough men who do make the effort to keep my dating life busy, I don’t need to bother with ones who can’t be bothered and the traffic through my inbox doesn’t slow down for someone who hasn’t made an impression, the speed and volume does press you to make fast decisions. I’m not interested in anyone who isn’t ready to settle down either and those looking to hook up or for a fling tend to be the ones whose profiles are lacking.

           

          Thing is what’s most irritating about it is not only do those sort of profiles jam up my inbox with “can’t blame me for trying”, but when I searched I had to click through 10-20 pages of search results before I found anything worth clicking on much less someone I’d consider messaging. I gave up searching some time ago (and by extension sending out first messages) because of it. It’s in the context of dating too so in the back of your mind “would you sleep with this man?” is there while you’re flicking through profiles of men whose photos make you cringe, the skin crawl factor does knock the edge off your drive. I know it put me right off and my online presence is now a long way down my list of priorities for the sake of maintaining some kind of interest in dating.

        2. Karmic Equation

          I had a simple solution. You don’t like his pictures or his message? Delete. When you’ve deleted quickly you should be left with just a few or none.

           

          It’s really not that difficult. Why save or page through your messages when you can do a group delete and just limit yourself to one page worth to decide upon?

           

          Instead of being so critical of unattractive men, feel sorry for them and just move on. All the negative adjectives you’ve used in your posts will only make you feel more negative towards either men or OLD or both. Try to have a positive inner dialogue. Failing that, try for neutral inner dialogue. It’s just better for the subconscious and easier to help oneself stay happy and positive, and thus, motivated.

           

          I don’t ever get mad at unattractive men messaging me. I rarely respond, unless they’ve written something worth responding to. Usually, I just think to myself. “Not for me.” I don’t judge him as in “How dare this ugly man write to me? Does he think I have no standards?” — That is just a b*tchy thought. And those kinds of thoughts transcribes into b*tchy attitudes. Be nice with your thoughts and your attitude stays nice.

           

          I’ve had men respond nastily to what I thought were nice “Thanks but no thanks notes.” For those men, I do judge. “No wonder he hasn’t found someone.”

           

          And the men who responded graciously to my thanks-but-no-thanks notes, I think “Well, I hope he finds someone. He deserves it.” And a part of me thinks, “Too bad I don’t find him attractive, he’s a nice guy.”

        3. Buck25

          Karmic,

          Quite true. Most of us guys don’t enjoy posing for pictures. and when we get a friend to shoot some for us, well, let’s just say most of us don’t know how to pose like GQ models; it’s not what we’re used to. Women somehow think we should all know how to do that I guess, and then often as not reject us, just because we don’t. I guess for a man to be successful at OLD he has to learn to pose like a clothing model, and have the right income, and be the right height, and be the right age, and  be a creative writer, to boot; what the hell any of this has to do with character, actual looks, interpersonal skills, or worth in a relationship, is entirely beyond me, but I’m a guy so what the hell do I know?

          All I know is that men have no monopoly on emailing women too young for them. I get my usual replies from my usual age group, after I clean out all the spam emails from 75 to 85 year old women emailing me completely unsolicited. This is about as welcome and “flattering” as you getting emails from 70+ year old guys, and just as damn insulting(the chances of someone like that EVER getting a date with an educated successful man under 70 and in good shape are….How delusional can these women be?); but I don’t send back the nasty responses a lot of women do for someone five years older emailing them. Sorry, but I just needed to vent that!

      3. 30.1.3
        SparklingEmerald

        If a man hunts or fishes for a hobby why SHOULDN’T he put pics of himself engaging in those activities for his OLD profile ?

        When I was dating online, I had a few face close ups, one or two full lengths, and then photos of me doing activities that I enjoy.  Charity bike rides,  some of me on stage in a character costume, some in an art gallery. And funny captions when I could think of them.   If a guy thinks my hobbies are silly or lame, then I’m glad he skip over my profile.  If a woman is turned off my hunting and fishing, then weeding out THOSE women is a GOOD thing.

        I don’t mind the sports pictures where you can’t really get a good look at the man, as long as some good clear photos are included in the mix.

        Better to SHOW your interests, then to write a long boring list of “I like to hunt, bowl, hike and play drums. in a rock band”  A picture is worth a thousand words !  Post up that picture holding the big fish, or rockin’ out with your band !

        My picture turn offs were:  Pictures posing with material possessions, as if that is ALL a man has to offer.  Also, I found out that many men post FAKE pictures of beautiful houses  (anyone can go to a RE development and pose in front of the model homes)  and pictures of expensive cars.  This is done to deceive women they think deserve to used and thrown away (gold diggers).  Since I’m not a gold digger, I always nexted those types of profiles.  But why troll for what you DON’T want, just to go on a revenge mission ?

        Also, wearing a baseball cap in every pic.  It casts a shadow on the face, and pretty much EVERYONE knows, that it is the picture profile equivelant of the “comb over”.

        Or just a generally crappy assortment of far away, out of focus pictures (attached to a sloppily written, non-descrit profile).  If he can’t be bothered to put in the effort for his profile, why would I think he would put effort into developing a relationship.

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