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Man, I wish I wrote this.
I’ve never been an emotionally unavailable man. Even when I was in my ten-year-online-dating-slut phase, I always wanted to fall in love.
So while I can’t personally identify with guys who are shut-off from love, I can acknowledge one thing: they keep me in business.
And yet, today, I’m going to continue to do my part to put myself out of business, by sharing this really well-written piece from SingleBlackMale.com on what emotionally unavailable men are thinking and doing when you’re dating them. (Thanks to the ladies of FOCUS Coaching for the link!)
Here are a handful of excellent take-aways that I want you to internalize ASAP, so you will no longer waste time on another dead-end guy:
1. Being emotionally unavailable doesn’t mean he’s dead. It means he’s not serious about falling in love at this point.
In other words, he can be a good guy and do everything right – but if he’s not acting like a boyfriend, you’re wasting your time.
“Now the fact that we are emotionally unavailable doesn’t mean that we’re no longer desirous of a woman’s attention and affection. It also doesn’t mean we’ve lost the ability to perceive attractiveness and beauty and it most definitely doesn’t mean we’re no longer interested in sex. We will want all of those things, and we’re still going to work toward getting all of those things. Understanding this is essential to understanding the emotionally unavailable man…Women often seem to assume that because a man is single, educated, employed, handsome, possessed with great taste, a great wardrobe and is a generally good guy, he is automatically on the market. This is an absolute fallacy.”
2. Ignore the positives, believe the negatives. Maybe it was our overt actions (not claiming you as a girlfriend). Maybe it was our silences (one week after a date). Maybe it was our actual words (I’m not looking for anything serious right now), but you didn’t pay attention. Says the author about women who ignore the signs:
“They figure if they can determine why we’re emotionally unavailable, then they can just help us address that issue and all will be right with the world. Still though, no matter how stern our warnings, no matter how many times we tell you that our emotional unavailability is serious and not a game, you still find away to allow yourselves to fall to the point of no return.”
3. Just because he’s emotionally unavailable doesn’t mean he’s evil.
“If we communicate to you, in no uncertain terms, that we’re very interested in you, but not interested in anything serious with anyone, and you choose to proceed, we see that as the green light to be the naturally great guys we’ve always been. This means we’re going to be thoughtful, we’re going to be charming and we’re going to make your friends laugh when you introduce us to them. We’re going to check on you when you’re sick, send you good morning emails and good night text messages. When we go out together, we’re going to do everything we’re supposed to do to make sure you have a good time and if you let us, we’re going to do everything in our power to please you sexually. Why? Because a good guy takes pride in making sure a woman in his company has enjoyed her time with him.”
Amen. I dated lots of women during my single life. You’d be hard pressed to find any of them who would say, “That Evan is a miserable asshole. He has no idea what makes women tick. What a terrible communicator. He’s so selfish and insensitive that he’ll never make a woman happy.” In other words, he can be a good guy and do everything right – but if he’s not acting like a boyfriend, you’re wasting your time.
4. You claim to be a powerful woman, but you don’t act like it. (Oh, boy, now we’re cutting close to the bone…)
You can’t expect him to value you like a girlfriend if you don’t insist on being treated like a proper girlfriend.
“Men use a formula to assign value to the women in their lives and a large part of that formula is derived from how much we believe that woman values herself. If you’ve been giving us all of you while requiring nothing more than our bare minimum then that negatively affects how much we believe you value yourself and we know in our heart we can never be with you. No matter how much we want to, we can’t build up the motivation to give you everything if we know you’ve been content with us giving you barely anything. We need to be challenged, we need to know that you’ll accept nothing less than everything.”
This is why I tell you repeatedly to act like the CEO and treat men like interns. If he’s not showing up and you’re putting up with it, it’s not his fault. It’s yours, for not firing him! You can’t expect him to value you like a girlfriend if you don’t insist on being treated like a proper girlfriend.
Any questions?
No, no questions. It’s all valid and acceptable, but consider this, I’ve turned down the handful of date requests from decent guys I’ve gotten over the past year . I feel that all the posturing and self abnegation involved in thinking like a man and “being a challenge” has conditioned me to want men less and less to the point where I won’t even go out with anyone. Great success right? Aside from the long term male friendships I have, I’ve never been so thoroughly turned off by the idea of a man’s company. Even when I get lonely. Maybe it’s just a phase, but I’m curious to know if this is an extreme felt by any other women on here.
I can identify with where you’re coming from, Chelle. I am starting to feel the same. A kind of, “What’s the point?” feeling. I do believe it will pass and that it’s just a positive sign that I’m not willing to put any effort out there until I get a sign that the guy is worth putting the effort in for. Make sense? Before, I would be the one putting up with crap and making allowances. Now, whilst I am allowing men to do what they want to do and not forcing their hand in terms of being with me, I’m doing it from an empowered conscious position. Change is a constant movement (storming, forming, norming, mourning (mourning the loss of old behaviours)) so, maybe we are both in the mourning phase? Just a thought….
Jo, this is exactly how I feel. Doing things from “an empowered conscious position” describes it brilliantly. I find that I am less stressed as a result and started to enjoy dating.
I think it’s important to go through this process and to remain optimistic.
When you stop as you say “putting up with crap and making allowances” you make room in your life people who don’t give you crap.
Here, here ladies! Crap and garbage belong in a receptacle on the side on the road.
Ah, but what if a man tells the woman that he is not going to put up with her crap? Or do women think that they never create crap in a relationship? The idea is to find a balance. Find somebody who puts up with your crap, and you can put up with theirs.
women create more crap in relationships than men do. in fact, in a lot of ways, women are the largest contributing factors to men becoming emotionally unavailable towards them. men do not just give away their vulnerability. we guard it with tremendou fervor. so when it is bruised, damaged, discarded, etc. by women….we take heed and put up walls to avoid it happening again. women start fights for really petty things, they become perpetually dissatisfied even when there isn’t anything wrong in the relationship, and rather than own up to how they contributed to the problem, they instead pass all the blame onto men. what guy would want to expose himself to that more than once? virtually none.
Its not boys vs girls, its not supposed to be elementary school our whole lives. We are individuals with individual issues trying to find some type of connection and understanding. I think this is what the program is about. To stop fighting and placing blame, but to just work on being happy with one another and then letting our natural, procreation induced hormones help us solve our issues. Of course past relationships direct behavior in new relationships, thats how our brains work, but you have to take into account new experiences too, like why you are interested in this or any person again, and how you can get what you need from it. some women repeatedly go back to guys who are abusive, I did, because I didnt see the places where I repeated my mistakes and learned from them. Just as you would like a woman to understand why you’re wary of intimacy, cause of how women have treated you in the past petty arguments and such, so does a woman crave your understanding of why she treats you the way you dont like, maybe cause of parents fighting, or an abusive boyfriend or serial cheaters. We are all people and a little understanding can go a looong way, and make the difference of enjoying a satisfying relationship or never having the pleasure of truly engaging in one. Thanks
TO: Mandar Sane –
Men make women look like we are creating problems… all we do is tell you how we feel and we look like psychos by men`s opinion only because men find it easier to tell a girl she is crazy and creating a problem rather than accepting there is something to resolve.. called lazy mind of a man……we in truth do not create problems – problem gets created like this when a woman says “baby i wish you could talk to me more because i love you and love talking to you” and a man will respond with ” Listens woman..im tired of talking to you or hearing this so get off my ass” – well it isn’t about only what man is tired of and look how a woman talks versus what a man is saying… have you considered what a woman longs for? Do you only think about yourselves guys? … you men do not want to lift a finger at a relationship but yet blame women when they move on to the next guy …..to be fair there are times when women are too much ill give you that… but its better to be too much in a relationship than not enough.. let me make this clearer… women are known to have more feelings emotions and empathy (that makes us 10 times better human species than men) who give only crap about themselves, their appearance, money and sex… those are not the only values in life.. that should tell you who really cares more and who deserves to be given the same respect back.. if we can devote ourselves for years putting up with your shit im sure you can get your head out of your ass and make an effort just the same instead of blaming only women for problems…… i hear you guys whining to me about how you cant find a girl… yes you can you just dont wanna do anything to keep her.
As much as it would be fun to start making broad sweeping generalisations about what men and women do in relationships, I think we should keep it real. Sometimes I think it’s a case of underlying neediness and co dependency that makes opposing parties feel emotionally unavailable or trapped in a relationship. I think it’s important to also note that if you are seeing common patterns in behaviour (ie always perceiving guys or girls as arseholes because of the experiences you are constantly having with them) then it’s probably your own repeating behaviour that is causing it. People seem to always it out on the other party rather than be humble and reflective enough to think that it could be them (particularly when emotions are involved).
To Mandar Sane. You are exhibiting the classic response as an emotionally unavailable man. To the ladies, you are responding as all women do to an emotionally unavailable man. Ladies, listen to what and how he says it. It has that certain: edge, jab to your gut, bad taste in your mouth. Recognize it (don’t take any of it to heart, it’s just a man’s fear response to something he knows he has no skills with, as well, he doesn’t know where to learn those skills). Ladies, please know, you can’t help him. The more you try the worse he gets because he doesn’t feel like the “manly man” when a woman has to step in and help. Believe me, regardless of what they say to you, they know it;s wrong and just a defense mechanism. And they’ll do it again and again. Ladies, either enjoy them for what they do have to offer and get your emotional support somewhere else or simply walk away. Just a thought, as we women get older, it is very tough to find someone that doesn’t come with a ton of baggage. More women are opting for boyfriends as opposed to husbands, it’s very healthy and logical to have several people in your life that meet your needs (and you meet theirs). Keep in mind, not all is about sex. My emotionally unavailable man I love to death, but, I have to seek out others for moral and emotional support. An interesting side note to myself: Mr. Emotionally unavailable is handsome and sexy but I have not wanted sex, there is no connection beyond the physical. I don’t want to go elsewhere, but, the connection is that important I guess. Hmmmm
A much larger percentage of women than is commonly believed should not be in a relationship. Period. This is not a bad thing, but it is socially against the norm and those who follow their heart can often get punished for it.
Many women simply enjoy the company of other women, their jobs, pets, activities in general. This is not to infer lesbianism. On the contrary, these are very healthy heterosexual women high enough esteem that they can follow their own heart and desires.
What you said. I don’t like feeling that way, but it is what it is. Maybe it is a phase and since we’ve deconstructed the old mindsets, we’re just getting used to how it really is and it does feel a bit strange to us.
chelle,
I’ve had a couple friends who feel as you do. They were both early 30’s at the time and both explained it this way: “I just feel I’ve had enough men. I’ve had enough sex.”
One friend I lost touch with so I don’t know how long it lasted for her. The other one did eventually fall in love again and is happily married now. Perhaps what you are currently feeling is a need to take a break from dating? To focus on the things that make you happy that don’t involve a man? Possibly the lack of interest in men is also a signal that a woman needs to spend some time taking care of her self. If one has spent years of her life in a relationship, getting over a relationship, looking for a relationship…that kind of self care may be long overdue.
Selena you are on target! It’s not all about men but the emotionally unavailable men if you are involved with one, you need to take a break. Similar to Narcissists, if you do not give them Narcissistic high and do what they say, they have no use when your the supply that they valued is gone. Good to be a gone girl them
Right on Selena
Wow. I feel EXACTLY the same.
I agree! In my experience, it becomes mentally AND emotionally exhausting to try and do the best we can when working to be all we can be and are, no fake a$$ $hit in the mix at all! Only to find the men you’re dating seem to strive to make things very difficult. I refuse to play house and give our milk for free, or if that, for any lengthy periods of time at all! In other words, friends with bennies loses it’s flare and excitement when that’s all you end up seeing signs that’s all the man wants! Well aside from that, being all we can and are, ends up getting taken advantage of and tread on too lightly. I am not a doormat that’s gonna get any newer overtime! So after awhile of the dating scene, he’s either in or he needs to just man up and be honest! And answer the question, “Are you in or out?” I am strong enough woman to take the truth, and then move on with myself. I’d rather take my well deserved reprieve of the exhausting efforts I’ve put in and go on with myself alone, rather than put my all in effort-wise, reason being is because why put in so much effort on our end before seeing what HE can contribute in to as well? It goes both ways.
Love this answer and I agree fully!
so well said!!!!
I agree. Two years ago I broke up with a boyfriend and was finally working on pleasing myself. Then a guy appeared and wanted a relationship with me so badly, only to turn out he didn’t want it so bad after all. After 7 months. And here I am having lost another 7 months of my life to a relationship. I am moving on and this time I am going to be single for a very long time and see how I do. I look forward to doing things I always wanted to do.
Amen! Tiffany
Yep, same here Chelle. I just don’t have the patience or the time to baby sit these dudes and play their games with them. It gets to the point that a woman just gives up and walks away; they like to play games as a way of feeling validation, but we get bored quickly with the games. What woman in her right mind would stick around for this crap? Life is too short.
True! Been there, done that, never again.
i would bet my next paycheck that it is your expectation of men that has made you unsuccessful with them. if you’re looking for a serious commitment, you might be seeking out the wrong men. that isn’t their fault for being who they are. that’s your fault for trying to fit them into your box. accept some personal responsibility for why your situation is the way it is. it isn’t all mens’ fault. it takes two to tango. it’s your fault, too. own up to that rather than acting like you’re some savior.
Every word you type makes me want to slap you silly. I just bet you are the selfish type. Even in bed how much do you go out of your way to please a woman, or do you get the majority of pleasing. I also bet you have a fierce addiction to something….alcohol , pot, weed, porn who would know. But you really piss me off and i do not even know you. Your next paycheck your betting….huh likely thats an issue as well, your likely the type of man who seeks out women who make twice your damn salary you ungrateful narcissistic bast…d . I am an attractive woman who experienced dating, and celebrated leaving him in the dust !! as he cared more about how GOOD he looked having me at his side and my paycheck was a bonus too. You charmers….you need to know you will grow old an grey an lonely as guess what ” real ladies do NOT dig you ” we put up with you awhile then we figure you out, and long before you realize it we are planning our exit from the torture of you as a boyfriend. Too bad you wont ever admit your wrong i bet either, i bet you rarely say the words ” i am sorry how can we work on this so it never happens again ” because you do not believe you are ever wrong you Ass, go change your diaper put on your big boy pants and learn for once and for all. The woman of your dreams will be at your side forever always if you do except you must learn to own up to your own faults without making these dear women you meet suffer. oh and PS – I bet also that long ago you were an incredible attractive Man full of love who was hurt.your still single because (you expect far too much and you give far too little and you do not know how to trust) Lastly I am very curious to know,whats your addiction ? go get help as it is controlling your future success and happiness.
Settle down “your Nemesis”, Mander Sane is responding just like all emotionally unavailable men. When a man is afraid he attacks. It’s useless to attack back. In this case, recognize him for who he is and walk away. Mander Sane is only going to attack in this forum because it’s filled with women frustrated with his type. Why he is here is beyond me, maybe he is really frustrated himself with the women in his life requiring him to step up emotionally and he can’t, he may be here to try to figure out what to do about it. Good for him I say, but, Mander, don’t come to a forum filled with women who are frustrated with their emotionally unavailable man. You won’t like what you hear. It’s just the release of anger of what those men have done to these women. I dare say, you aren’t going to feel safe and able to learn here. If that’s why you’re here of course.
I genuinely feel just like this at the moment. I’ve turned down numerous date requests over the past few weeks. The guy’s seem great and all, I just don’t feel like going out with them.
Yep, agreed. All those conditions for their so called affection read one thing to me: high-maintenance.
Avoid.
We’re missing out on nothing. Men are nothing a 9-inch toy can’t solve.
If that’s what you truly believed, you wouldn’t be on a coaching website.
I know you’re right.no commitment no hassles no expectations ..I agree men are douche bags take it from me..
No- men who behave like men are awesome. Boys and men who behave like boys are douchebags. It’s really unfair for either gender to bash the other with broad generalizations, too.
I know your comment sounds cynical but I have felt like this for quite awhile. Dating and playing “hard to get” and all of this gets exhausting when you are past 40 and tired of the BS and then meeting men who’s lives are “Complicated” with divorce baggage, emotionally unavailable but more than happy for casual sex. Yep, the toy you mentioned, gets the job done without the constant effort it takes to attempt to try and find a relationship that even has a chance at “forever” and all that happy horses***!
I have a lot of Long time make friends too. And what I’ve realized is that is there is no suck thing as the friend zone or friends with the opposite sex. One always wants more from the other so they terate the relationship as it is hoping it will one day magically become the fantastic love story they really want. I used to tell men immedietly not to fall in love with me. Naturally they became obsessed and would do everything in their power to make me “settle down.” I thought they loved me but I think they really just loved the challenge. I broke up with them before they could hurt me and therefore made me the one that got away. so they always try and come back. But that’s not love either. That’s merely trying to make me want them lime they love me. It’s a sick cycle because I have a guy friend who has done it to me for 8 years. At some point we have to be open to wanting a healthy relationship. Be open to vulnerability. Or we will all end up alone.
I can understand where you are coming from, but do you think that you may have too much cynicism, and that you may be overlooking guys that actually do see you as a possible life-long mate? What I worry about is that men today often think that they have to act aloof or the woman will no longer see him as a challenge and move on. I think it starts with how men often fall for us before we do and they have to keep it to themselves until we make it clear we are head over heals for them. I think a lot of men get stuck in that “playing their cards close to the vest,” thing, and don’t know how, or fear making it known how they really feel. If that guy is still coming around after 8 years, I think it is possible he really has a thing for you. 8 years is a long time for a guy to just play games. Maybe he is afraid to be vulnerable because you don’t make him feel safe to let his guard down?
If he has pursued you for 8 years I would not say he is playing games or going to hurt you. I had a man who was a “friend” and wanted to be with me for 8 years. We talked about getting married, but then stopped seeing eachother again (but remained great friends). He passed away a few months later at the young age of 42. There was never ANY doubt in my mind over those 8 years that he truly loved me. What a fool I was. I would do anything to have him back, I have never met anyone who TRULY cared about me so much (it wasn’t that fairy-tale BS love, although at the time I admit, I thought he was just infatuated) and I will be lucky if I ever do. In the meantime I was searching for “true love” and went through a lot of immature relationships and dead end relationships with men who were too old to be playing these games (I’m 33) and REAL, TRUE love was right there the whole time.
Kat, I would not blame yourself too harshly. There were a number of red flags. First of all, he was nine years older than you! That’s actually a lot. I was married to a man nine years older than me, and he was a stuffy person who was no fun. Also, it could be that you sensed what was going to happen to him, and never made the commitment because of that. Just because someone really cares for you, doesn’t mean that they are right for you. There has to be reciprocity. There can even be a little bit of the fairy-tale. Don’t settle. There’s someone else out there for you. Sorry for your loss.
I couldn’t agree more . I’m totally over it Myself
I have. Actually spent 8 yrs this way. Sort of like a fog. A blessed period in my life and now I’ve awoken to a much crazier place. Lol! Loving this article!
I’m feeling the same way. Men are a waste of time. I’m beautiful. Everyone says it. I’m extremely fit. I exercise a lot and practice martial arts. I’m 100% Puerto Rican and have all the curves to prove it. I’m educated. Working on a Ph.D. I’m a published author working on two books. I have a strong relationship with God. At this point, it seems men are pretty much not worth the hassle. I feel fine being alone, but with men everything is an uphill battle. Maybe I was just meant to be alone. The problem is having to go without sex for the rest of my life…that’s the only reason I want to be married anyways. I want to be able to have sex without breaking God’s laws. A hiking partner would be nice too…
People (Men and Women) who self praise alot, are the worst lot to interact with .
Carmen isn’t being arrogant if she can back it up. She is just saying that she has her s*** together. She has worked on herself, she takes care of herself (mentally, physically, and spiritually).
Of course – if Carmen talks about herself like this on the first date, yes, it can be a turn off. Just the same way it can be a turn off for a woman if a man were to talk about himself like this on a first date.
Thank you all for sharing all your experiences. I felt so relieved knowing that I share the same situation with most of you.
I still do not understand why men make it too complicated when all we need at the end of the day is love..and that for sure includes them too.
Well said carmen
I’ve known this non committal man for 9 years. He knows I love him and he loves that I love him. I’ve had dozens of dreams about him over the years and he said I “woke him up spiritually” and that we have a spiritual connection, and the whole bit. He said my dreams about him have been prophetic. I can give many examples. And he still doesn’t put a ring on my finger, even after talking about wanting to have a baby with me. He makes no damn sense. If things are going wrong he’ll call frantically and get upset and forgive me for just about anything I say or do. I just don’t get him!!!!!
Carmen, you sound like such a gifted intelligent woman. I congratulate you on your many accomplishments. So many of us talented women are very loving, and I want to point out that giving, giving, giving your energy to a non committal man, even if on a spiritual, emotional level is not healthy. What are you saying to the Universe? You’re saying “It’s ok for me to give and nurture to a man, and not get nurtured in return.” It would be different if you didn’t have feelings for him. But you do. You are basically giving the message to the Universe that you are the mommy who gives it away for free, and he is a baby who gets to have love, attention, connection for nothing. You are not helping him step into his manhood one bit. We are all energy, nothing more. Where is our energy going? God can only give us what we accept for ourselves. He should be dreaming for himself, not you having dreams for him. You say “I just don’t get him.” No, hon, you DON’T get him and you never will. Get yourself, contain your energy, start visualizing your family, and think more about you.
*raiseshand*
That is how I currently feel. I am not bitter at all, just realistic. After 49 years on this planet, and several long term serious relationships(including marriage) I want to utilize every moment of life without dealing with drama or unnecessary internal conflict. I came to the realization that I was much too accommodating when it came to a partner’s bad behavior. I look back on the great times and smile. They were great, but the not so great times have caused me to go inward.
Exactly. Men can be control freaks in relationships if you let them. They want to dominate and destroy. Not most men but if you are not used to that type of man, then when you meet one, they make many promises. NEVER LISTEN TO WORDS ONLY ACTIONS or lack of action! My last long term guy was emotionally unavailable totally. Since I had never met one before and he was from another country, I thought it is just how they act but it was not the case. It was all about him. We might be friends someday but he lied a lot and promised a lot and with American men somehow they always did what they said and we just didn’t have the same life vision. The emotionally unavailable man wants to be controlling on everything and if you do not listen, he feels threatened. There are some issues. You are beautiful but this doesn’t last forever. We all have our turn and NEVER sell yourself short.
Hello Chelle I can totally identify with you, I am currently in a peculiar place between fearing not desiring a man and being totally elated and empowered in not desiring a relationship/man, I believe, like some of the other replies it may be a phase that will propel us in an upward direction like a place of realization that we needed time to process and progress
I accept men as they are – with all their inadequacies and insecurities. Why? Because I have my own set too. Geez, it’s not that hard people. Being a strong, independent woman DOES NOT guarantee you will find someone who loves you as you are.
I am independent and strong. I was not driven to rush off and get married and have kids when I left high school. I had enough backbone to earn my own living, go to university, have fun, have a successful career and pursue my own interests.
When I got married, we spent an equal amount of time apart and together – it was great, and after all, we had both been independent before!
My issue is that I am low maintenance because I am self-directed, that tends to attract men who know you can look after themselves, so they don’t need to make an effort.
I am only needy in the sense that I believe a partnership is about being able to be vulnerable and not so strong – and for that to be completely OK with them. It’s OK with me!
But still I attract, and am attracted to, emotionally unavailable men.
I have NEVER found that my strength and independence have been an asset in attracting men.
I have the same confusion too. I always had people after me and I always fall for non-committal ones. Except I don’t think it is being needy to expect vulnerability. It’s healthy and it is the foundation of a relationship.
“My issue is that I am low maintenance because I am self-directed, that tends to attract men who know you can look after themselves, so they don’t need to make an effort.”
I have been questioning this exact same thing since my last relationship. It is a good deal for the men therefore the many people who want to get together but my needs are still not being met. I have been observing other women who strike me as high-maintenance (emotionally and financially, etc) and get their needs met. It is about meeting the right person who is just as committed, can accept your flaws, etc. We all will reject someone and someone will reject us. A part of it is luck of the draw and completely had nothing to do with us.
It is also letting someone understand the possibility that a strong independent strong woman has emotional needs as well. People tend to have an all of nothing mentality, missing out on the grey.
Also, I seem so independent, it seems that I don’t need them which simply isn’t true. Seeming too independent has the reverse effect of drawing non-committal or needy guys as well. They like the cool, detached girl and once you are attached emotionally to them, they pull away. So I am going to try to show my vulnerability from the start, if someone pull away, that is not the one. Because all the others I can deal with on my own really. The right person will appreciate md for the gem you are , an independent girl who can show vulnerability as well. Maybe it is the same for you.
Why are you on a dating blog? Just curious. If you don’t want a man.
Oh, I absolutely agree! I’m sick of the posturing and trying figure out this mess from Mars. They can’t get real and communicate….sorry but, “I don’t know what I want” is unacceptable if in the next few dates, they’re wanting sex!!! Put your big MAN pants on and get real, fellas. You know exactly what you want.
I have found thru decades of failure with men, I have learned that I choose the wrong ones, and why. Although being a co dependant can be changed when recognized and dealt with (that’s me) I learned the quite liberating truth that it causes us to choose what’s comfortable, often what we grew up with…in my case emotional unavailability, and passive aggressiveness. I’m still married too it, and haven’t quite figured out what to do, but I know what you’re talking about. I have always been in a relationship so no one can believe I don’t want one…but it’s so unattractive to think about. To have to deal with the stress of wondering if there is anyone out there that can just be real.
I completely agree chelle. The more I have to think like a man to protect myself from their behavior, the less interested I am in their company. Pretty sad state of affairs really.
Hi Chelle,
“being a challenge” is some of the worst advice on getting a high value man out there. It’s complete BS and I think it is a real disservice if you are looking for a relationship with a high value man, which means in his eyes a partner in life not a master (CEO), servant, dependent or damsel (barring those who aspire to the gender roles of the 1950s)
Better advice “be interesting” that is do not be afraid to talk about the intellectual, or what you know or what you dream and aspire to.
“Being a challenge” has value only in the part that means don’t let someone walk all over you. It should never mean be aloof, treat him like an intern, make him work for it etc. Why? A high value man wants a partner, not a CEO, not a master, likewise he isn’t going to make you work for him. Rather, you both bring the best of yourselves, see if you click, not set out a series of hoops the other needs to jump through.
Think how you would feel if a man treated you like an intern. I’m sure you do as there are many stuck up men that do just that. And do you really want an intern? What does that say about a man’s view of himself.
Nice synopsis of ideal man
Well said….
It seems we live in a society where convenience takes the cake. There is too much visual stimulation for men that leaves them with no drive to “work for it”because they can so easily get their needs met just about anywhere. It’s sad, but has also left me disgusted by wanting any male company because women have been put on the standard to do it all anyway while men sit back and complain how we don’t contribute enough because they can’t do it all themselves. And we take it as a challenge. Women’s rights I think have shot us all in the foot and threw off the balance of what men and women are supposed to offer each other that Men are providers and protectors, women are help mates and connect emotionally. IMO. both extremely important and as necessary as the other. We aren’t meant to do it all.
Chelle…i feel just as strongly about this as you do. I feel turned off by the “challenge game” and all of the above that you mentioned as well. It has also “Conditioned” me to want men less and less. I get lonely at times…but then I think of all the bs, heartache ,uncertainties, emotionally unavailable, rebounders, players whatever etc etc. And it just doesn’t seem worth my time heart or energy, not to mention my youth….. t rying to keep up or figure another guy out AGAIN. Aside from a few of my long term male friends…..dating myself and leaving men out of it….I’ve found I’m much happier and productive. Im still young and attractive and didn’t see myself not having a life partner but…….the options and the hoops just don’t seem worth the risk. Who knows.
I totally get ya hun x..it’s sad😕
Agreed, I have no ambition to chase anyone who has no intention of putting in the effort or is not interested in someone who won’t play games – its actually a slap in the face that they don’t seem to recognize the beauty in finding someone like me. I’ll pass.. Ive veen walked on and taken for granted enough :]
It’s when you become so comfortable and confident in your body, mind and soul that you can make yourself happy without a significant other. Which scares the hell out of most of us, to believe we are abnormal beings for trying to please our senses, what is normal these days!? Its in our nature to have urges. Open up your mind and think of all who are truly discontent.. what is it that makes them not value themselves, to put before another.
Loving someone means your capable of loving yourself, as a result you both can love one another.
Amennn!
Chelle,
This is how I have felt for the past 10 months or so. Men are, in a word, useless now days. They don’t even pay for stuff anymore for god’s sake! They provide NOTHING..and yet, here we are bending over backwards trying to get one of these losers. They take all the romance out of dating (because God-forbid you show a woman a good time and make her feel good!) and have turned it into a gladiator pit where all they want is sex (on their terms) and women have to fight to stay alive. Romance is dead. Love is dead. I’m not sure what the point of the whole 3 ringed circus is, but, true love is not it. The whole thing is a pointless game in which no woman can truly win unless she becomes this demi-god of a woman that only exists in fiction. Sorry guys. I don’t see the point of you anymore. I’d rather be alone than deal with anymore of their bulls#$t
Me too it feels too much effort!!! Maybe the right person would feel easy and natural? Our confidence in being single and complete is definitely something to be proud of. Some icing on the cake would be all the sweeter though so staying positive! Good luck in love and life xxxx
Yes, Chelle, I have often felt this extreme too. Having ‘accepted the challenge’ of the emotionally unavailable man multiple times previously, I am no longer attracted at all (even sexually) to that type of person. I have zero sexual attraction to ‘stereotypical masculinity’, zero emotional attraction, zero friendship attraction. I’ve noticed my life is so much more enriched and fulfilling when filled with emotionally available people (men and women), that my conditioned response to emotionally unavailable people is no longer to give them any more of my precious time.
I wish all my emotionally available exes all the best – I hope they get good therapy, learn to love themselves, and learn to connect with people. It’s just no longer my job to fix them or inspire them, which is a great freedom.
I’m insanely happy with an incredibly emotionally open man now, so my life is great. I focus on me – they focus on them. That’s what I recommend to people now. It’s not worth your time.
100 fucking percent!!! The less they want us to give a fuck the less I do and at that point then what’s left?
Chelle I am in exactly the same boat I am genuinely not interested in any man at all and just treasure my long term male friends. It’s literally like a switch has been turned off
I found myself getting to the same point. The last guy I tried pushing away when he was running down the road with his phone number. I actually borrowed ice from my neighbor and he was sitting at the table. I made it clear that he caught my eye and he pretty much made it clear the same. Really, I was in the middle of a date that I was already deciding I wasn’t going to be dating anymore. The guy just wants to drink so not fit for a mama. so when the other ones running down the road to give me his number it went straight in the trash even though I thought he was The spitting image of my dream man. he came around a month later with a different number because I hadn’t responded to the last. then I felt bad and decided to give him a chance because at that point the other one was gone. I was hoping he was gone anyway but he kept showing up crazy weirdo.
anyway my perfect man is being left behind because he’s not my perfect man. emotionally unavailable but I’m saying that in not a needy way. I just almost feel like he’s stuck in this little boy drama session. It causes so much distraction away from what I could be doing with my son and I. I work with a lot of men and have actually trained HVAC installation in residential homes and I am a mother. I see these big handsome guys that just totally turned me off after getting to know them. it’s always been us women and hormones and we’re just so drama. Her mood swings and really what it is, it’s just like liquid courage type reaction as if I was drinking or something. Bottled up all this irritation and this all comes out LOL I am annoyed. my ex just is so overly exhausted I just lugged a furnace up a snowbank and five flights of stairs and then took old shit out and brought it all the way back down. Now I’m home being a mom, not Itching my balls on the couch give me a break you big baby!!! 7 foot tall brick ass house ironworker man haveing a unavailable moment again. if I did that the whole house will fall apart. as soon as you say anything about grow some nuts then the mute button is pushed then they go hide in the corner ( dog house) for a week or A month . I see it in so many giys and it’s just that ” I am puffy chest mighty mouse man.” it’s just a bunch of role-playing bullshit. I have not yet found a guy that can be completely dependable. I depend on me and really I only need me. i’m responsible for my own happiness so I’m getting it by being alone. if the miracle happens it happens but you know what it doesn’t happen for everyone and now that I’m 45 I’ve learned that and it is what it is. what’s wrong with just being a mom and exploring stuff with my kid. I don’t have time for little boy games and believe me I’ve dated all types. was very hard finding me. my heart was set on being a cosmetologist to being a lead HVAC installer to being RV technician. i’ve dated A sophisticated banker, A manly ironworker and a auto mechanic. ironworker started his own business just recently included provided so much but guess what I can provide for my damn self I already have one child.
Really us women and men are different and I am OK with that and I can do this shit myself by myself and be so much more relaxed and happy and do what the hell I want. Who needs romance when you can do everything your damn self less headaches and always high confidence. it was just all a burden.
Regardless of how you want to define it, I would say there were a few relationships where my emotions/attitude matched the men being described as “emotionally unavailable.”
In my case, I was interested in getting into a serious long-term relationship. But with those relationships, I had serious doubts about the relationship’s future. They were great women, but I didn’t think they were great for me.
I wasn’t about to commit my heart to a relationship that I suspected was a dead end.
In one case, I continued dating the woman casually after I decided that it was never going to go anywhere. I explicitly told her that the relationship was never going to go anywhere. But we both enjoyed dating each other, so I saw no reason to stop as long as the arrangement worked for both of us.
However, I felt it was her responsibility to decide if/when this kind of relationship no longer worked for her. I would separately make that decision for myself. Therefore, I ended things when I decided to pursue an exclusive relationship with a different woman.
Regarding the specific points made by Evan:
1. Agreed. Many emotionally unavailable men are normal men who aren’t ever going to fall in love with the woman they’re currently dating.
2. Excellent advice. If a man tells you that he’s not interested in a serious relationship, he means he’s not interested in a serious relationship with you. He doesn’t have some master plan of meeting the right woman, then stringing her along for years until he’s ready for a serious relationship. It’s far easier (and better planning) to string along the woman who is good enough for now.
3. Absolutely true. It is in our best interest to treat you well even though we plan to break up with you … even after we have broken up with you. I dated the woman who introduced me to my wife. They’re friends. My wife is acquainted with three other women I’ve dated because we’re all in the same extended social circle. If I had been a jerk to those women (before, during or after we dated), I would have a reputation as a jerk. My dating success relied on having a good (or at least neutral) reputation.
4. This is one possible explanation. Another (highly likely) explanation, is that we didn’t commit because we didn’t value you that highly to begin with. You were a great woman, but you weren’t the right woman for us. Therefore, if you leave us (because we weren’t committing), it’s not a big loss. If we believe that you’re the kind of woman who comes along once in a lifetime, we’re going to try to seal the deal … even if it’s not convenient in our present circumstances.
Do yourself a favor. Don’t expect the noncommittal man to change (for you). When he commits, it will almost certainly be to someone else.
Thank you for your honesty. I needed to hear it.
Loved this posted. Number 4 hit hard. I really needed to read this. If a man wants to be with you he will move heaven and earth to do so.
True they will, but be careful. A man, in my experience, who loves you, will move Heaven and Earth to be with you, but you can’t test that. Or should I say, you are risking losing him if you test that. What I mean is, I and many ladies I know have lost guys because they test the guy’s love for her. They want to see how much he loves her. They test him. They make him work for it.
It is one thing to ask him to move near you if it is long distance, and he can transfer to be near you. A man who loves you will do this. Nothing else will matter. He will do it. Unless of course he feels that it is better for you to move to where he lives, but you are just too afraid to do so.
The point is simple, don’t artificially test that theory to see if he love you. Men aren’t as stupid as we think they are…sometimes. LOL If he sees that this is what you are doing, he will often leave. Most men I know don’t like that at all and it IS a deal breaker for most of them. As one guy told me, “Life is hard enough already. I don’t need somebody who supposedly me, making it harder on purpose.”
JennLee, could you give some examples of how women test men to see if he loves her or how much he loves her?
Any woman can answer this
Adrian asked for examples of women “testing” men.
I guess one example would be girls who follow “The Rules” in that silly book. I don’t believe in such manipulative game playing as this book advocates, so I don’t play but those “rules”. I guess another “test” would be “circular dating” as Rori Raye calls it. (I call it cheating) I don’t believe in that stuff either.
A lot of advice given in the “manosphere” claims that “hypergamous” females s__t test” men all of the time, but the advice given to men is nothing but how to play women, how to toy with their hearts in order to gain power over her, etc. Any reaction to their ridiculous antics is seen as a “s–t test” instead of a response to the ridiculous games they are playing.
I think “time” is the best test of all. I don’t believe in setting up fake scenarios to
“test” a man’s love. Life has a way of throwing all kinds of test our way, to see if love will stand the test of time, and weather life’s up and downs. No need to artificially manufacture these “love tests”.
It’s really a pity, I think some men and women devise these tests, because they really enjoy playing games with people’s emotions, but what is really sad to me, is some people really just get lonely in their search for love, seek out advice, and then someone tells them (not EMK) to play this, that or the other game, and to make the opposite sex pass a series of “tests” to see if they are worthy. So these frustrated lonely hearts might end up playing a game and “testing” someone and end up alienating someone who MIGHT have been a good match for them, but they drove them away with their silly games and tests.
I like Evan’s “tests” the best. Observe a man’s actions over time. If he doesn’t put in the effort the “fails” the test, and you move to find a man who WILL love you.
Adrian, there are as many was as there are women. But they can be grouped into categories I suppose. I don’t really want to do that. Way too complicated. I think the most common is acting like a Diva. Acting crappy toward the guy to see if he stays. Now keep in mind, not all women do this. But she might want to see how you react. For some women, this may be a learned behavior. For instance, one guy dumps her after a long relationship, saying that he can’t deal with her drama. That may have even been an unfair statement, but the damage is done. Some women might then up the volume a bit to test a man to see if he has what it takes to stick it out with her. From her perspective, she is normal, the man who left is not. So she wants to see if any new men in her life are like the man who left, or not. Also, she may even realize that she is emotional/full of drama, and accept that, but still wants a man who is like a rock in the storm, a man who she can cling to when her emotions are going crazy. A man who makes her feel safe by not allowing her emotions sway him in a negative way. Sometimes she might need nurturing, and sometimes, when she is just being sassy, or a B, she actually wants him to call her on it without being an A-hole in the process.
Anyway, this is just one way a woman might test a man. It can be seen in that it is like what many women do but she is raising the level to one that is very painful to the man. This is almost always done because of her own insecurities, and so many would never even admit they are doing it, and may not even admit it to herself.
“Life is hard enough already. I don’t need somebody who supposedly me, making it harder on purpose.”
you win a virtual big bush of flowers. its not just a dealbreaker but often a downright heart breaker. and a big reason why we men become emotionally unavailable.
If it’s not a big loss for the guy, then why would a man have tears in his eyes when a girl ends it with him cause he doesn’t want a relationship (and continue to contact her)? No ultimatum was given, just a mature statement of not continuing a non-relationship.
Perhaps you aren’t/weren’t dealing with a very mature guy.
@ Steve, Yes, I guess you are right about this and it’s probably as simple as that. Funny how life is, sometimes he would seem mature and a good communicator and then at other times I can now reflect back and say there was a lack of maturity. He did at one time admit he had difficulty expressing his emotions.
Karl R: Exhausting!
Too much posturing; too many variables; too many games being played, here. This is an extremely high-maintenance scenario that, eventually, explains someone who is emotionally unavailable. Why even BOTHER dating? Why not go into your basement and create the perfect robot you seek.
No wonder people go into the mountains to become recluses – to get away from humanity. LOL!
Been lurking here the last couple of days and reading all sorts of posts with their comments….Karl R thanks for sharing your thoughts, and your responses to Evan’s post.
You’re response to number 4 is definitely a heavy one…
@Lori—- Hi, another Lori here… you’re right # 4 posted by Karl R hurts to hear, but REMEMBER!——
A man feels no great loss only because of HIS PERCEPTION of that woman as being low value. Just because he sees her that way DOESN’T MEAN SHE IS! The sobering reality is, some women that are written off by a man to be low value are actually very high value women.
In many cases, these poor men are very wrong! Unfortunately, once a man gets it in his head that a woman is low value, the woman often starts exhibiting behaviors (behaviors that are perfectly understandable under these circumstances!) that cause her to feel scared, sad, anxious, even angry—- because intuitively, she KNOWS how that man sees her, she can FEEL it and she knows he’s wrong! So, what does the woman tend to do? Either immediately drop him, or engage in certain behaviors in the hopes of getting that man to SEE our value.
However, once a man gets it in his head that a woman is not high value, it’s almost impossible to change his opinion. At that point, any behavior or actions taken on the woman’s part to try and make him see her true value are seen as over emotional … in other words (cue drumroll)….. LOW VALUE.
It’s a bit sad, but in these situations, there is only one way a woman can communicate her true value to a man that’s made up his mind to write her off as “not worthy” of his commitment: She needs to just quietly and gracefully walk away AND!!!! —— you must NEVER be intimate with that man again in order protect your feelings. If it’s cool for both of you, you can be light friends, but no sex. Never again. No matter how much you love him.
Trust me. It may bring up weird emotions in him, and at a heartbreaking cost to both, but he’ll finally understand the true high value of that woman. But it’ll be too late. Thank goodness there’s plenty of fish, Ladies!!!
Love, Spirit and Blessings xxoo
So how does this challenging him to step up and not be content with the bare minimum he is willing to give square with accepting him for who he is and loving him unconditionally (eventually)? As a woman, I try intentionally not to criticize the men I am with and take what they are willing to give me without demands. Apparently this is setting me up for a total lack of effort, instead of appreciation and gratitude that I let them be themselves. I admit, that’s consistent with my personal experience. How do I let them know I deserve more without coming across as too critical of them?
On a side note…I could be the emotionally unavailable person in this dynamic. Its not just men that do this and reading this helped me clarify for myself where I am at.
Nicole–
I understand where you’re coming from completely. I used to struggle with this mightily when I was single. What I’ve discovered is there really is no magical word or set of behaviors you can utilize to make certain men into Mr. Right. I think the key is to have high standards but no expectations, and to be very discerning. If a guy isn’t giving you what you feel you deserve, move on immediately.
Trust me, when the right man shows up, he will make such an effort that you no longer have to worry much about whether or not he likes you, or which games you need to play to keep his attention. He will always ask you out, follow up, and make sure he can see you by hook or by crook.
The trick is to be receptive to this type of Mr. Right when he pops up on your radar, and discerning enough to get rid of the users and time-wasters ASAP so you can be available when the time is right:)
I really feel for you– before I met my SO a few years ago this was a major sticking point for me, also– you’re in good company, and you can find what you want if you keep looking.
Nicole,
It’s not about demanding, or even asking for, good treatment. It’s about accepting the good stuff into your life, and eschewing the bad stuff. When a guy comes into my life, I am hugely positively responsive to the lovely stuff that he does that makes me feel great, and as soon as he does something which doesn’t feel good I say something like “It would feel great if… “, giving him a chance to make it right.
If he doesn’t, he knows instinctively from the vibe that I give off that he will ultimately lose me. Simply put, the good guys make an effort to make you happy, the ones you shouldn’t bother with, don’t really bother. That said, I do definitely think there’s something to be said for being forgiving of human beings little missteps, faults and lapses, as long as they are not too serious.
Nicole, to me “accepting him for who he is” is about accepting his fundamental personality (extrovert/introvert, easy-going/ambitious, couch patato/active, etc), his values (spirituality, finances, etc), and his lifestyle choices. It’s necessary because those characteristics are basic human rights, are not about right/wrong, and it would be exhausting to be criticized or asked to change in these areas that define who you are. If we do not accept the fundamental features of the person we are dating, we must walk away and find someone we can really accept.
It does not mean, however, that we can’t inspire him to be the best man he can be in terms of character, relationship skills, love, and respect. We sure can’t demand or expect any growth, but we can hold ourselves to certain standards that if not met result in a discussion on what we need to continue the relationship. If he values being with you and appreciates the opportunity to become a better person (since what you are asking is about growth and not about change of basic personality and lifestyle preferences), he will step up and “become more”. If not, it’s time for a graceful exit.
When my then boyfriend, now husband proposed, part of what he said was “You’ve inspired and encouraged me to become a better man, and I want to continue on this journey with you…”. It continues to be true, and he continues to become a better man, while he inspired me to progress on my own path. But we are accepting each other’s personalities and quirks unconditionally in the process.
Fusee – What an excellent explanation about accepting someone as is, while inspiring them to be the best version of THEMSELVES. I hope in my next relationship to BE that person and to FIND that person, the one who accepts me AS I AM, while inspiring me to be the best version of myself.
Nicole,
It’s as if I was the one who typed your comment. Acceptance is a great thing, no demands is too provided the timing is right and my needs are met. Timing is right as in not giving too much too soon. Trust that he will do the right thing and communicate clearly if he doesn’t. I find that having no demands and being accepting from the get go sets the standards for the relationship. Acceptance comes with love and security, it is not for everyone. When someone has proven their worth to you, then you offer it. I believe Evan talks about acceptance for committed men who has proven with actions, not everyone. It doesn’t hurt to subtly remind someone you do accept them when you feel taken for granted. There will always be power dynamics at play especially in the beginning, once you play the role of the walkover, chances you are doomed to play it forever.
@Nicole — I agree that this has sometimes been me, too, in relationships; it’s clearly not a dynamic that’s specific to men.
I think another, similar version of this “unemotionally available” person is the “nuptially unavailable.” This person is fully committed to being a great boyfriend/ girlfriend, is in love and willing to make the relationship work for now, but has not interest in marrying… or, in marrying you.
I love #4 and don’t think this blog and most dating advice gets at this enough. You can act a certain way and say the right things and do rules but if you don’t highly value and respect yourself deep down it doesn’t matter. Valuing yourself won’t make flaky, noncommital guys commit to you, but it will help you ditch them asap and start attracting higher quality people. I’ve come to realize that without a doubt, I come first (in the good way, not the selfish way).
Jenna, I think that is spot on. If one doesn’t love oneself (in a healthy way) then what is it that’s being shared when we get together?
I see each person in a relationship as walking their own path, holding hands and listening and caring. Sometimes those paths get crossed, but it’s always your path, and you’re always holding hands together. Some people want to merge those paths into one path – I don’t think that’s healthy.
Anyone who is comfortable in their own skin is automatically more attractive and worthwhile.
EMK has said it over and over.
The answer is to walk away. It really doesn’t matter if he’s EU for you, or in general. If he’s EU for you, WALK !
Robin at 3.1 is right, there is no magic words or actions to make an EU man become your Mr Devoted. The magic is that YOU disappear, and make room for the RIGHT man to appear.
When a man doesn’t want you in his life (except for a bit of fun) it doesn’t matter which way you lean, if you use “feeling” words or “thinking” words , cross your legs at the ankles, knees or not at all.
If a man DOES want you in his life, you’re not going to blow the whole thing because you didn’t quite master the cool girl hair toss, wear the wrong shade of lip gloss, or began a sentence with “I think” instead of “I feel”.
With the right man, you won’t wonder where you stand, and you won’t have to walk on egg shells to keep him. (You just have to be sweet & sexy & make him feel great ! )
Amen Sparkling Emerald, it is that simple!
Well said!
Amen, indeed! My first thought after reading the article “What to do with emotionally unavailable men” was “nothing!”. I’ve dated/met quite a bunch of them in my life and I can definitely tell that if you’re looking for a substantial relationship, dating an EU man can be summed up by “it hurts so good” (unless you’re EU too, then this doesn’t apply).
Sparklingemerald you TOTALLY NAILED IT with “there are no magic words…The magic is that YOU disappear” I’ve turned it into a post-it note that sits on my desktop screen as a reminder. Thanks for sharing that.
You so right, Sparkling emerald! If a man doesn’t want, there’s nothing you can do…You can go and climb Kilimanjoro or even run the longest marathon, from London to Scotland..But , he doesn’t want you, he won’t give a damn.
thanks I needed to hear that… Just twigged that a guy I’ve been dating is one of these EU. I’ve told him it’s over….. I couldn’t imagine staying with a man like that,,, wish I’d dumped him sooner but I wasn’t quite sure although I felt in my gut it wasn’t right….. I stayed until I knew for sure……… I think it’s sad for him feeling scared to connect emotionally to someone they like and care about… It’s been a horrible experience for me 😔
It’s true.
Thank you I totally needed to read this. I am reassured and feel better about my choice.
Pretty much sums it up.
I think once you understand emotionally unavailable men and what motivates them, you will feel more in control. Once I realized that the emotionally unavailable men who occasionally hit me up were doing so because they didn’t have the time for a relationship or weren’t up for it, or maybe just didn’t want it with me but still craved attention, affection and someone to just spend time with, I stopped getting upset at them. I empathized with them, I would be lying to say I hadn’t been there myself. I might even participate because decent company is decent company. But you must know that is all it will ever be. There is no relationship to be had, just an occasional date.
If you’re both emotionally unavailable, it’s no problem (if slightly dysfunctional).
Could someone give me an example of being emotionally unavailable in a relationship? Point #3 that Evan quoted from the article, it seems like he’s doing all the right things, and he said he didn’t want a relationship with the woman. What are some examples of being emotionally unavailable in a relationship… or does it just mean a person who doesn’t want to commit?
Gabri’el @8, some examples of EU, is the entire relationship is on his * terms. He doesn’t feel the need to “label” the relationship. Plans are always made at the last minute. Plans are frequently cancelled. He doesn’t claim you as his girlfriend. You don’t know from one time (or booty call or hook up or hanging out time) to the next, if and when you are going to see him again. Not only does the EU person not want to commit to marriage, or a “labeled” relationship, they usually won’t even commit to a date later in the week. EU people are frequently “busy”, their lives and schedules are always “up in the air”, they travel a lot, and their lives are often a mystery. You ask them what they did this week, and answers are vague like “Oh, I was out and about” or “a little bit of this and a little bit of that” etc. I read the perfect phrase to describe such a non relationship. It’s like trying to catch a fish with your bare hands. Slippery and frustrating !
*I used masculine pronouns because this is a blog giving advice to women who generally date men, but women can be EU also.
I was going to say like trying to nail Jell-o to a tree.
you are not his priority
Any man who doesn’t say he’s your boyfriend by about 6 weeks or says he doesn’t want anything serious is emotionally unavailable; even if you have the best time together / see each other all the time.
@ Gabri’el
Love and emotional attachment are mechanisms evolved from the same selection pressures that gave rise to intensive biparental care in humans, and emotional attachments facilitate exclusive, long-term mating strategies. Men continuously monitor their mating opportunities and facultatively adjust their strategies.
In any event, these phenomena are evolved adaptations, not as part of a system of meaning-ascription that counteracts ego-serving fitness-optimization. Furthermore the fitness-enhancing effects of adaptations must be understood in terms of their aggregate effects, not whether they promote fitness in every instance.
It seems most people on here think that authentically self-aware men deliberate moral choices and interpersonal commitments and permit them to overcome fitness-oriented temptations to be emotionally unavailable. This reasoning is incorrect
SparklingEmerald, You’ve done it again! Loving an emotionally unavailable partner is ‘like trying to catch a fish with your bare hands. Slippery and frustrating!’ So well said. Bravo! I’m really glad I came to this site and read your comments.
I struggle with this concept of unavailability. Partly because English is not native for me, but also I think this is too new-age of a concept for me.
I think that there is a much simpler way to describe it – when a man meets a woman, he either falls in love, or he does not. By love, I mean that certain chemical reactions happen in his brain, he gets a cocktail of endorphins that is powerful (makes him feel euphoric) and addictive (he needs more and more of her presence).
We all crave this feeling, and we know very well whether we experience it with regards to some one, or we do not. Men are capable of dating women without being in love with them. By the way (suprise surprise!) men (and women) are fully capable to date, marry and be faithful even without being in love. Dating, in the sense of having a good company, companionship, sex, and all the other benefits that come with it, can be a goal for a man (or a woman) with or without love. You can not force someone to be in love with you any more that you can force yourself to be in love with someone.
In my opinion (and here I am very humble because I have been out of the dating scene way to long to be a credible reporter), a woman should listen up to hear whether the man she is dating tells her that he is in love with her. If he does not say that, or says things that are the exact opposite to a declaration of in-loveness, she should be aware that a very important ingredient is missing, and she would be better spending her time looking for someone with whom both her and him can experience in-loveness.
So guys, is being unavailable the same as not being in-love with the woman?
Yeh I think the term emotionally unavailable is a nice way of saying yeh he will date you . And just pass his time with you but you aren’t the one . It’s hurtful to think that yeh a guy can be with u and it means nothing . But now I’m thinking that rather than labelling them unavailable . I’d rather look at it as . Yeh it’s more Like im just not the one for him . It’s easier to move on that way rather than thinking oh he’s emotionally unavailable maybe I can fix that . He’s just doesn’t want me long term . He’s happy to have me as some thing to kill his time while no other girls around . But as soon as another girls there I’m gone . And usually it’s an arguement he uses to do it then when he loses Interest in her he try’s to come back And be nice . Took me a while I guess I’m slow . But it really affects your self esteem . Best to cut them straight up as soon as u find out n not let them back in .
You are pretty mush right on the money Deb. If he is “emotionally unavailable, it is very very very likely that he does not see you as “the one.” I think the “sexual revolution was great for women that want no NSA sex, but for women who want a LTR, it was the worst thing to happen to them. Men can find plenty of free sex, which gives them a lot of power in relationships. Many women think that they have to have sex with a guy pretty quickly or he will just move on. Well, the truth is, he will stick around if you really are the one. He may not stick around for 3 years while you make up your mind, but he will stick around a lot longer than people are willing to admit here. but he will only do so if he really does see you as something special, his ideal woman. If you are “the one” he will wait, at least for a while. I don’t want to put a number on it because it is going to be a subjective number based on how much he is into you and how much you make him feel loved and appreciated even without sex. Plus, he is going to have to see light at the end of the tunnel. just like there is no magic number on the scale for women, there is no magic number for how long a guy will wait for his ideal woman. But, he will wait, and longer than most people admit.
But you are right that many women do waste a lot of time with men who do not see them as the one. Nowhere is this more true than older woman/younger man relationships. Most men want a younger woman, so it is only logical that the vast majority of men dating/shacking up with an older woman, see it as a “for right now,” proposition. Date younger guys all you want. Have the time of your life. Why not? Just have your wits about you and pay attention because the signs are almost always there that he sees it as a short term affair. If that is not what you want, get out and find a guy that sees you as something special, not as the special of the day (cheap bargain).
This is a good article, and highlights how some of them can be really great company. So, you can be lulled into thinking he is moving from EU to not EU, by words and actions. I am so grateful for this blog and a few others that clearly outline the behaviors that someone needs to really look for, and advise what to do while you are in one of these situations.
The first person I dated (just out of my very long term marriage) was some combination of EU, avoidant/commitment phobic. I recognized it immediately, and went out with him intentionally. I actually didn’t want to inflict myself on someone who WAS emotionally available, because I knew I wasn’t yet. I looked at my first dating adventure as a bit of a throw away, but I wanted a fun experience and to learn to be in the company of the opposite sex again.
My EU guy experience did end up being particularly hard, due to the fact that at various points he would TELL me it was progressing or evolving for him. And when I would break up with him, he WOULD come back, slightly improved. His behavior was also very difficult to interpret, as he was very consistent about dates. His ‘reason’ for his sometimes flaky behavior was absolutely valid – a very demanding job, and suddenly saddled with his pre-teen, full time, single parent, no support from anyone. So, I had a circumstantially unavailable guy who professed to adore me and took me on great dates.
My tool for dealing with this was to date others while dating him, and to try to break up with him at various points. We had agreed early on that I should be dating others, since I was brand new at this. He did not date others, but reserved the right to. He kept telling me “I only want to see or be with you”, and “I am very into you only”. He would say…”I want you to see what’s out there”. In my head, the first two sentences ended with ‘right now’ and the third was his ‘out’ if I had ever pressed for commitment from him…he could say…whhhhhhaaaattt, but I told you to date other people.
Anyway, I dated 4 or 5 guys during the course of seeing him…and I mean platonic dating, as I had gotten attached to my EU guy – which proves to me this attachment stuff is pretty darn involuntary. at least for me anyway.
One of the guys I dated ended up being really great, and exhibited true boyfriend behavior and wanted to BE my boyfriend. Having attempted to break up with EU guy twice, and learning he was for some reason not going to easily let me go, I was able to say…look I met someone that I need to focus on, and I can’t see you while I am seeing this other guy, and I need to give it a chance. He then somewhat graciously let me move on.
He still contacts me – my guess is to test the waters for continued involvement. I am polite, but don’t bite. My new guy is awesome and it’s great to be learning how to be a good girlfriend.
So, some of these situations are not so cut and dry. I also think some of these guys are really, really skilled at stringing you along to get their needs met, and giving it all the trappings of a real relationship, but it’s not. It’s all on you to figure it out and act accordingly.
Very similar to my first guy after a long period of not dating. It really threw me, because I never had the experience of someone who would disappear and then repeatedly come back. I haven’t seen him in two years, and he still texts me occasionally. I think your assessment is correct. Just wants to see if I’m still on the hook – because like you, I became very attached. Thank goodness for this blog or I’d still be falling for it. I just wish I had found it BEFORE I met him. 🙂
Notbuyingit,
This has been my first experience with an EU guy who will not let you go. I do not take his calls at all now, but suffice it to say, I wish my mother had told me about men like this. Thankfully, I won’t make the same mistake twice.
The problem is that EU men are capable of going through the motions, as EMK says in point #3. So, for me, this is a case where actions don’t speak louder than words. However, most men will say something about not being ready for anything serious, not having a lot of time for dating, not sure how he’s feeling or if he’s ready for a relationship, but wants to see where it goes because you’re great, etc.
In the past, if I ever gave one of these men a chance, they were capable of acting like good boyfriends. But as soon as the subject of commitment arose or a certain amount of time elapsed, the excuses invariably popped up again. And that is why EMK’s point #2 is so important. Listen to a man’s excuses, and believe them.
Hi, Ruby. I don’t understand, so I hope you can explain, if you guy said he didn’t want anything serious, and they treated you good (like all humans should to each other), then I don’t understand, why would you bring up commitment, if he told you from the beginning that he didn’t want it? Maybe I misunderstood your post, but it seems like in the last paragraph you were up-set that he didn’t want a relationship, what did he do wrong? And wouldn’t it just be better to avoid guys who say they don’t want a relationship?
When I was younger and first dating, I’d think the guy would change his mind. I think that many women hope for that too. And most men don’t flat-out say they don’t want a relationship. I definitely have encountered men who were more vague about their intentions, leaving some wiggle room. and it could be confusing, because we’d be consistently, and usually exclusively, dating. I’m not upset, just stating that I realized that you can’t change a person, that’s all.
“And most men don’t flat-out say they don’t want a relationship.”
I suspect that is much more common than putting out some kind of non-serious disclaimer on the first date. What’s confusing is often guys in casual mode (term I prefer over EU) can come on very strong at first just like guys who want a relationship. It can take weeks for the woman to realize she’s “Thursday girl” or the once every week or so booty call. And by then she might be attached. She remembers how the guy was in the beginning and holds onto hope that he will revert back to that.
Also, even when a man says something upfront to indicate his casual intentions the woman may agree. He’s good looking. He’s fun. Why not? And then she becomes attached. And it turns out she’s not as cool with casual as she thought she could be.
If the guy is doing all the boyfriend-y, couple-y things consistently the woman might very well think they ARE a couple despite the fellow’s early disclaimer. Right up until the day he backs out and says “But I told you from the beginning I wasn’t looking for anything serious!” Ugh.
Gabriel, I think all men are aware of a woman’s tendency to want a long-term relationship. If they didn’t play on that hope, they would never get any sex and go for years without it. So let’s stop pretending that that is not what’s going on.
Reading all these definitions of ’emotionally unavailable’ makes me think the term is just salve for the ego.
Someone isn’t giving you the attention (or the kind of attention) you want? He must be ’emotionally unavailable’.
Someone is not progressing a relationship beyond the casual when you want it to be serious? It couldn’t be because he’s not that into you could it? Nah. Must be because he’s ’emotionally unavailable’.
Doesn’t want to marry you? Might that be because there are issues in your relationship he knows could lead to divorce? Oh hell no. It’s because he’s ’emotionally unavailable’.
Labeling someone with a “flaw” because they don’t do what you want them to do must be easier than admitting any complicity oneself.
I really think it depends on the person and the situation. Someone going through a separation or divorce may well be EU. The older confirmed bachelor may be EU. The player or the man completely focused on his career. Too often, women make thee kinds of excuses for the man’s inability to commit. But if the person is emotionally unavailable to you , does it matter why?
How long does it take to determine someone isn’t a good match for us? If someone doesn’t want to commit to us then obvious they aren’t a good match, yes? So why the need for the EU label at all?
Well, the original on piece EU men was written by a man. And he writes, “Every guy I know has, at some point decided to check out and withdraw from the spiritual, emotional, and physical commitment that comes with “falling in love.” We do this for various reasons: sometimes it’s because we want to focus on our careers, sometimes we’ve been hurt and are not interested in feeling that again, sometimes we have obligations and responsibilities that for a time will supersede our own feelings and sometimes we just know that for the moment …”
Selena – Keep in mind that the “need” for the “EU label” is that this is an article written by a MALE blog host, in reference to an article written by a self professed Emotionally Unavailable MAN, with the presumed (or perhaps stated) intention of helping women understand “EU” men.
So if you put the use of the coined phrase “EU” in context, there really are no ulterior motives for using the phrase, just an attempt to join in a discussion about the concept. (when I first started hearing the fairly new coined phrase “EU” I thought it was just the new term for an older coined phrase “Commitaphobe”, but apparently not. I suspect that with most coined phrases, there is no PRECISE definition, and everyone understands the term a little differently.
@Ruby & SE
I did read the article and I do get it. EU may be a form of shorthand for someone in casual mode. Something about the term just strikes me as psuedo-psychology…and a little blame-y.
I can see how it could be fairly applied to someone dealing with a mental/emotional disorder, but not so fairly to someone who simply didn’t want a serious relationship at a particular point in time.
SE, yes EU sounds to me like the new version of commitmentphobe. I have yet to hear anyone in real life use either phrase, but I’ve seen dozens of women call previous lovers commitmentphobes on the internet. And it always seems to me it is used because the man wouldn’t give the woman what she wanted. Bad Man! So that is where my comment #12 came from. 🙂
I agree Selena.
It’s easier to label the man than to work on being the right woman who is compatible for ANY man. Once you’re the right woman, both the “emotionally available” and “emotionally unavailable” men try to have relationships with you (e.g., my reformed player-now-ex-bf). I would just say that while what we’re calling the “EU” man might TRY to be a good bf, in the long run, they usually FAIL to be a good bf because he’ll fail at some aspect of good-boyfriend-ness. But it’s not because he’s EU, it’s because he’s a bad bf.
With the exception of not wanting commitment, basically, SE’s description of what a “EU” guy does is the description of a guy who tries to be a good BF but can’t do it right.
Not wanting a commitment doesn’t make a man or a woman “emotionally unavailable”, imo. Instead it makes them commitment-unavailable. I think it’s wrong to tie emotions and commitment together. You can have commitment without emotions (e.g., unhappy marriages) or you can have emotions without commitment (I love my ex-player-bf, but we have no commitment to each other). Being available for commitment doesn’t automatically make a man “emotionally available”, he can still be a bad boyfriend. But if he’ll commit to you does that negate his bad bf-behaviors and he’s now “emotionally available”? Really? If a man is a good bf but doesn’t want to commit TO YOU, doesn’t mean he’s emotionally unavailable. He just doesn’t want to commit TO YOU. He can love you and be good to you, because you’re a lovable person. But he doesn’t value what he has with you more than he values his freedom. Does that really make him wrong? No. It just makes him the wrong guy FOR YOU.
So if COMMITMENT is what a woman is looking for, as soon as a man says he’s not looking for anything serious, walk away. He’s already decided you’re the wrong woman for him. Men who are undecided about what you could mean to him NEVER OFFER unsolicited that they’re “not looking for anything serious” — they don’t burn bridges like that — Instead they say nothing about commitment. Zero. But they’ll bring it up once they’ve decided they want to commit to you, usually 2-3 months. I know Evan says 6-8 weeks, but my personal experience has ranged from 4-12 weeks. OTOH if 2-3 months have gone by and he HASN’T brought it up, it’s safe to assume he doesn’t want to commit to you. So you can walk away without even asking. His actions have spoken. If YOU bring it after 3 months? You’re stringing YOURSELF along. Don’t blame him.
Thank you Karmic, you and Selena helped me understand what emotionally unavailable means, it’s easier to avoid becoming something if you understand what that something is
YW, Gabri’el 🙂
Karmic, I agree with most of what you are saying. I think there is one statement though in your post that could lead some to think they are ‘less than’ or ‘flawed’ in their level of ‘self’ or of their ‘game’ if they can’t get a particular person to commit.
” Once you’re the right woman, both the “emotionally available” and “emotionally unavailable” men try to have relationships with you (e.g., my reformed player-now-ex-bf).” You may be implying that someone CAN make themselves someone for everyone. I think this is an unhealthy concept. We can strive to be our best selves, is all. (I am happy for you that you reformed a player, but I think this example doesn’t transfer to some cases)
There are cases where you could be an incredibly beautiful, accomplished person, but under no circumstances will they commit. Say for instance, they have a requirement that you are Ivy League educated, or from a well connected family – but they don’t share with you that that’s what they REALLY want – possibly because they know that’s a rather shallow requirement. But they use you as a placeholder until that person comes along (whether they do or not, and whether or not they are ‘worthy’ of such a partner – and I don’t like the word ‘worthy’, but I think folks will understand my point) They may actually have an unrealistic self concept, and therefore, no one is good enough, but they use you as a placeholder until something better comes along – if that ever happens. Meanwhile, their words and actions confuse the partner.
They ‘present’ with the symptom of ’emotional unavailability’ or ‘commitment phobia’, but in their mind, you simply were not ‘up to snuff’…but you looked good enough for now. And they do everything in their power to give you just enough crumbs to keep you minimally content. As an added bonus, after you end things with them, they may need constant validation, or want to keep you as part of an adoring “harem”, they want to keep their foot in the door.
But, the result is the same. They may not even state they aren’t looking for commitment – if they are honest they will, but they might not. Actions won’t match words, words won’t match actions. You will feel the ambiguity, you will feel something is off. You must take action and WALK. No, RUN, before you feel damaged and ‘not good enough’.
They are not all as “honest” as the fellow in this article.
Hi ChiliPepper,I stand by my statement. But you are right in that there is an implication of being flawed.We all have flaws though. I snore. Nothing I can do about that. I’m messy. That’s something I can fix, but I don’t. My messiness is a flaw men have to accept or not. Because I’m the right woman, even neat freaks deal with my mess. Or I convert them to my way of living and they like it because if all they have to deal with is my being messy, they know they’ve hit the jackpot 😉
However, most *personality* flaws should be addressed. Insecurities. Needinees. Controlling behavior. Those three flaws are guaranteed to drive men away. Get rid of them. Don’t just say “I have insecurities/I am needy/I am controlling, but the right man will accept them.” Because those flaws have a way of undermining LTRs in the long run. So yes, you might get a man to try having a relationship with you. But if you’re insecure/needy/controlling, he’s going to think twice about being in a committed LTR with you. Unless he doesn’t have any options himself. Contrast that to my snoring. I thought that would drive men away. Nope. My reformed-player-ex, who snored worse than me btw — too funny — would banish me to the other room or banish himself to the other room when he couldn’t deal. You get those personality flaws under control and then men stick around…long enough for YOU to decide if they’re good enough for YOU. Because ultimately, that’s what we women want. *WE* want to be the ones doing the rejecting. We *don’t like* it when a man does the rejecting. So if what you want is to have the power to do the rejecting, then work hard and get rid of the insecurities, neediness, and controlling behaviors. Add in happiness, radiance, being supportive and accepting. If you do, men will then stick around long enough for you to decide if YOU want THEM in the long run. Then it’s up to you to walk away if he’s not worthy of you. If he IS worthy, and you ARE confident, secure, accepting, supportive. What sane man walks away from that? They don’t. I’ve never even felt that I was a placeholder in my relationships. Until this board I’ve never even heard of being one. If what you want is marriage and he doesn’t? Then confident, sexy, accepting, supportive you walks away to give all that goodness to someone else who is more deserving. He loses. Not you. As long as you’re willing to exercise your power in walking away. If you abdicate that power, you have no one to blame but yourself in remaining in an unsatisfying relationship.
I totally agree about emotionally unavailable versus commitment unavailable. I was married to an emotionally unavailable man for 28 years. He wanted the stability of a wife to basically take care of him (a mother figure) but he loved his work more than he loved me. The only time he was ever emotional was over his job and I was always available to comfort him and give unconditional love. However, after trying to talk to him for years about my needs in the relationship and he said I needed to keep those feelings to myself, I decided that after my youngest child turned 18 I was done. And I left.
That makes a lot of sense. There are numerous examples of women who are told up front by a guy (e.g. by occasional poster Tom10) that he’s not looking for a serious relationship. But because he’s such a great guy (charming, good looking, etc.) she goes ahead and dates him anyway. Then later on when her emotional needs aren’t being met she complains that he’s a player. That’s not on the guy, it’s on the woman.
@ Joe
Sometimes people will say upfront they aren’t looking for anything serious, but my guess is most daters are open to seeing where something might go.
If you think about it, all relationships start out casual. You don’t know each other very well – if at all – on your first date and there is no way to predict how you will each feel after two weeks, two months, two years. Even people who know they want a serious relationship don’t know if it will happen with the person they are enjoying early dates with. Could go either way. And people who may not be specifically looking for a serious relationship sometimes meet someone who ends up becoming the love of their life. They’re not going to know that on early dates either.
The problem as I see it, is that infatuation can do quite a number on our heads. We are so *hot* for a particular guy or girl we fail to see (or ignore) that their feelings are not as intense as our own. We get so caught up in the big romance we have going on in our mind, we dismiss the obvious signs the other person hasn’t fallen in love with us and are not going to.
Then when the dating relationship ends…after a few weeks or months usually…we may come up with a label in an attempt to take the sting out of the rejection. Regardless of what the person may have actually told us about THEIR feelings.
i have no problem with men being upfront but this needs to be done early on and no man has every done this with me early on. Why because they knew I was looking for a serious relationship and if they honestly told me they were not they would never get to have their fun with me.
I would describe an ex as EU even though he did want to marry me. It’s more than whether they will marry you, it’s more to do with intimacy and honesty or rather lack of it, and whether they drink too much or are thrill seekers or very elusive. He went on to marry someone else, they had a child and a few years after that he was trying to have an affair. Obvious EU behaviour. But more subtle is the absolute fear of vulnerability. it’s the walls, defensiveness and evasiveness you need to look out for, and the gameplaying. Often, they don’t even know they are doing it.
The outright players aren’t so much the problem as those who can almost have a committed relationship but not quite. They give enough to keep you hanging on but not enough to be satisfied. And even if you break it off with them or they break up with you, they somehow manage to keep a foothold in your life so you don’t move on.
A woman has an obligation to herself to move on from the wrong guy once she’s determined he’s the wrong guy.
To say “They give enough to keep you hanging on but not enough to be satisfied. And even if you break it off with them or they break up with you, they somehow manage to keep a foothold in your life so you don’t move on.” is abdicating her responsibility and giving him too much credit…and creates a victim mentality. Or the man is wrong mentality. It’s never a man’s responsibility to take care of your emotions and sensibilities. It’s always your own responsibility. Always.
If a woman doesn’t move on, unless he’s some sort of crazy stalker, it’s her own choice that lets him have a foothold in her life. No blaming men. Blame yourself. You have control over you. Unless he has a gun to your head, anything he does to you, you’re LETTING him do.
I agree. I learned this the hard way. I suppose I thought that if someone loved you enough they would actually say “Look, I care about you, but I just don’t see that we’re ever going to be committed. So I’m going to let you go completely.”
In fact, that is what I did with a man who was very much in love with me, and wanted to marry me. I was not sure, and stayed with him for about six months in this state of uncertainty. When I finally figured out that ambiguity=no, I left him and did not talk to him or try to be friends. I figured that was the kindest thing I could do.
I suppose I thought that was the most ethical thing to do. With the current “hanger-on” it took me a while to realize that he had no intention of meeting my needs in the relationship, but also wouldn’t let go. So I have completely let go go him — and my surprise and disappointment that he didn’t ‘fess up that he would never commit to me. I’ll know better next time.
Wheeew… Selena Thank You! I didn’t want to say anything but I really didn’t understand what emotionally unavailable meant because each person had a different -and sometimes conflicting- definition of what it meant. Anyway I’m just glad it wasn’t just me.
I’m LOL Gabri’el. You’re welcome. 🙂
Totally agree . It’s sad lady’s but it’s true . He just hasn’t found the right one . I’m not it n your not it . Makes u feel like crap but let’s not kid ourselves . I get attached too easily I’m really sensitive n this stuff hurts Like hell when you’ve invested time into someone n given them your all . I’m starting to wonder if at 41 now I’m going to be that person that a man commits too . I’ve stayed too long with guys that had no intention of taking me to the next level and have lost so much self esteem . That I’m prob too damaged now . So my advice to any youngsters on here is to hold your head up and keep moving forward . Don’t let guys that don’t value u have any of your precious time . Cause if you keep staying and getting used to this . This is all that you will accept and get .
Deb, I am sure that you will find the right guy. 41 is not old. Funny that you said “youngsters” when you aren’t old. I’m mid-30s and don’t feel old but don’t feel like a “youngster” either. LOL
Anyway, I am sure that there are tons of guys 40s to very early 50s that would commit to you. Are you just seeing these guys as invisible because for one reason or another you are eliminating/friend zoning them?
I know some women who will lament that a guy they are seeing is perfect except for one thing…like not having perfect teeth, or being bald, or not being athletic, or he likes to hunt, or any number of single “deal breakers.” Seems to me that women look for reasons to eliminate guys from their dating pool. Seem to me that they almost always eliminate the guys that WILL commit to them, and hold out for the guys that will not commit.
Emotionally unavailable is valid, it could be in general or to the particular to ther person a man or woman is seeing. If it’s in general then it’s not salve for the ego. If it is particular to a person then it could be salve for the ego or it could happen because one party is lying to the other.
Let’s take a woman who only attaches herself to players or men who won’t date her exclusively, and when she dates a man who wants to be with her, she’s attracted, but the closeness gets her scared, then she runs to the man who doesn’t get too close to her – that is emotional unavailability in general, the true kind.
A man who is EU, might be a player, he might be wanting to date several women, not get emotionally involved with any of them, he limits conversations to sex, he fears intimacy – it’s not about the right woman for him, it’s about how many women he’s with and no chance of getting too close or getting hurt. That’s EU.
Now if you meet a man you aren’t into so you dont’ want a commitment with him and you tell him you don’t want a relationship then you are just lying, you like his company and want to spend time with him but if you say you don’t want LT with him then you won’t be able to string him along. Same for a guy, if he is open to a relationship but says this line to a woman cause he doesn’t think she is the right fit for him then he is lying and stringing her along. Both cases the men/women are lying, they are EA, but EU to the person they are with.
No need to say it’s salve for the ego, people often aren’t honest with their intentions so it could seem they are EU and it’s confusing for the person who might have fallen in love with that person and doesn’t understand. Or that person might really be EU
@selena no offense but three rules of communicating are no shaming blaming and complaining. particularly to the person you’re talking about so. maybe try being blunt without being belittling
Whenever I hear someone talk about their significant other being “emotionally unavailable,” wringing their hands and wondering what to do about it, I am able to simplify it for them by adding two little words. Instead of saying, “So-and-so is emotionally unavailable,” say, “So-and-so is emotionally unavailable to me.” The second you break things off and So-and-so meets the man/woman of his/her dreams? I guarantee they will trip over their own feet in their hurry to become emotionally available to that person.
Don’t take it personally. Not every person you meet is right for you, and vice versa. Just recognize it for what it is and move on. It also helps to remember the ultimate truism (which holds just as true for women): “Men do what they want to do, and they don’t do what they don’t want to do.”
It really is that simple.
I remember a period in my life when I was emotionally unavailable. And the bottom line is, it’s much fairer to let someone know that you are not available for anyone – but perhaps just to date. At the time, it was freaky for me if a man became too demanding.
When you can’t give love (because you’re hurting, or because you just want to flirt, or have sex – that exists, doesn’t it?) isn’t it easier to walk away?
Well this article certainly hit home — as I suppose I’m the quintessential “emotionally unavailable” man. At least in my case I know why: it is a side-effect of a coping mechanism I developed for dealing with trauma and depression, and of having an unusually high libido and predilection for variety. I would bet that this is the case for the majority of emotionally unavailable men, although I have no evidence or statistics to support this.
Without going into too much detail I went through multiple near-fatal bouts of clinical depression in my teens and early twenties which were sparked by trauma, lifestyle and a genetic predisposition to the condition. During the last bout I made a decision to deal with it once and for all. So after some research I dealt with it through lifestyle changes (improved diet, exercise, regular sleep patterns, abstaining from alcohol), and strict mental discipline (avoidance of negative cycle thinking patterns, setting and accomplishing goals etc.) without resorting to therapy, medication or even telling anyone. The ‘high’ from porn and one-night-stands also assuaged it — to such an extent that I probably become addicted to them.
Since then I have lived more or less a healthy and normal life, however, one unexpected side-effect of such vigilance has been that I almost never develop any feelings for women beyond mild affection, (or of grief for that matter). I seem to have ‘parked’ these emotions until some future point. So even if I met the most amazing woman in the world I still wouldn’t be in a place at that time to have a conventional, committed relationship with her.
What the article and Evan mentioned about the way guys value women is very important. A few women I dated in the past periodically check up on me to see if I’ve managed to ‘get there’ yet. One woman I dated ten years ago comes back about once a year to see if I’m “ready yet”. By doing such a small action she lowers her perceived value, thus removes the possibility of being considered an equal/relationship material. When/if a guy is ready he will only date someone he values highly.
Many women seem to have some sort of “Florence Nightingale” complex; if only they could fix this one thing/show how great they are then he would be a great boyfriend (as he ticks all the boxes on her criteria checklist) and everyone would be happy. This is the wrong approach: Evan is correct — women need to value themselves properly, thus act like the CEO and fire the interns who don’t show up properly, by cutting him off entirely.
I think the consensus here is correct; if one is looking for a serious committed relationship it’s best to stay away. We make great fwbs though 🙂
Tom10 – Thank you for your very honest, naked post. I think it is very brave of you to come on a blog for women trying to fall in love, and freely admit this. But I’m glad you do, because I think it’s important info for women to have.
Sometimes I really DO think that its’ HIM not HER. I like that EMK doesn’t push the idea that if a man, or even a string of men, don’t fall in love with you, that the only explanation is that the woman is somehow defective.
There are some people (men and women) who truly are emotionally unavailable, (or whatever description that isn’t offensive some of our more sensitive blog posters) either through an unwillingness to fall in love or perhaps even an inability to fall in love. But I don’t believe that once EU, always EU. People go through life phases and probably phase in and out of both emotional availability and practical availability.
Practical unavailability is a phrase I have coined (or think I did, perhaps I have heard it and forgotten) for people who would like to fall in love eventually, but perhaps there is some other pressing matter that prevents them from doing so. Someone could also be generally available, but not to a particular person. Once example is 2 people who meet, really like each other and see potential, but live far, far apart. I know some people have made long distance relationships work, but I won’t even consider it. When I get an e-mail from someone out of state through online dating, I ignore it. I consider that person to be “practically unavailable”.
Very often, two people are not a match for each other. The guy is not a jerk, the girl not a bitch. And some people, like you so candidly admit, are just emotionally unavailable, commitaphobes, love resistant, or whatever phrase one wishes to use to describe it.
Just because someone wants to be in love, but hasn’t found their match, doesn’t mean there is something horribly wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
And just because someone doesn’t want to be in love, if they are at least honest about it, if they can live with that, I don’t think they are necessarily defective, but I do think they are missing out on a big chance for happiness, but I must also admit, that they are also avoiding a lot of grief at the same time !
“There are some people (men and women) who truly are emotionally unavailable, (or whatever description that isn’t offensive some of our more sensitive blog posters)…”
Oh snap SE! But yes I agree with you that some people may legitimately be emotionally unavailable – for various reasons. Clinical depression, severe anxiety/panic disorder, bipolar, addiction, overcomming addiction, dealing with severe stress or grief are all conditions that can make someone emotionally unavailable to a greater or lesser degree. Though people with those conditions often do get into serious relationships anyway sometimes despite the emotional toll it takes on themselves and their partners.
Contrast this with someone is who is wading back into the dating pool after recovering from the breakup of a serious relationship. Emotionally they are looking for some kind of connection, just not a serious one right now. I wouldn’t consider such a person EU, I’d put it under “trying to get their groove back”. 🙂
What about people who are stationed in an area to work on a project and know they will be relocated in a few months? Should they forgo the perks that come with dating (attention, affection, sex, companionship) for the duration of their project? Are they really EU, or would it be more accurate to say they are “available for a short term relationship”? What exactly is wrong with that?
What about people who travel constantly on business? Is it wrong for them to form not-so-serious relationships with people in the cities they frequent? Does EU apply to them?
EU is a tidy shorthand that can blanket almost any situation and is certainly less wordy than “doesn’t want the same kind of relationship you want”. So despite the fact I think it could be applied inaccurately, maybe I’ll get over my “sensitivity” and start using it myself :P.
@Tom 10
Tom, you are fairly young, around 30? You may not be ready to “settle down” yet and your inability to not feel more than mild affection for any woman you date could be a psychological mechanism. You are not ready to get attached to someone, so you don’t. Just a thought.
If it starts to bother you it might be worth discussing with professional. If it doesn’t bother you I think you are doing just fine being honest with the women you go out with.
Thanks SE 🙂
“People go through life phases and probably phase in and out of both emotional availability and practical availability”
I agree. I’ve never really believed in the concept of “the one” — I’ve always believed in “the timing”. For the last few years I have been observing the process of how my friends met their long-term partners and they all seemed to follow a similar pattern (all reformed players between 28-32). For years they never gave much thought to looking for a relationship, and then all of a sudden they switched modes and started taking dating seriously. So after a few short months of dating different women they picked one, fell in love and now they’re coupled up. I will probably go through the same process in a few years — still need to do a bit more work first.
So yes I think people do phase in and out of being emotionally available.
“Just because someone doesn’t want to be in love, if they are at least honest about it, if they can live with that, I don’t think they are necessarily defective, but I do think they are missing out on a big chance for happiness”
It’s funny that you say that — so many women I know have said the same thing to me. They just can’t get their head around not wanting to be in love at this moment.
If someone said to me “you will never manage to be in a loving relationship” I actually wouldn’t be overly concerned. However, if someone said “you will never have sex again” I would be terrified beyond belief! Funny that.
I’m not really missing either. But then again, I feel much like Chele in the first comment after the orginal post.
“Sometimes I really DO think that its’ HIM not HER. I like that EMK doesn’t push the idea that if a man, or even a string of men, don’t fall in love with you, that the only explanation is that the woman is somehow defective. “
Most men will be emotionally available for a woman that they are really into. If a woman is running into a string of men who aren’t falling in love, then it could be beneficial to perform an honest assessment of themselves and their behavior to see if anything is driving men away. These women may not be defective, but it could be more of a problem with the men they’re choosing.
Yes, if a woman stays with a man who’s JNITH for a long period of time she is choosing wrong. If she goes through a string of first dates, or a string of men who she spends 1-3 dates with, and then moves one when she’s sees there isn’t a match, then there is nothing wrong with the men she is choosing. Because she in fact has NOT chosen them, if she discontinues contact very early on when she either decides they aren’t a match, or they issue the standard “I’m not looking for anything serious ” disclaimer.
I love that on a site where Evan admits it’s predominately women readers, that your answers Sparkling Emerald, are always balanced and pragmatic, with just a pinch of emotion to ensure no matter what gender the reader, they will gain some empathy and understanding… at least that’s how your answers always seem to me (^_^)
“I think it is very brave of you to come on a blog for women trying to fall in love….”
ok i really dont want to offend anyone here, but i thought one person falls in love with a particular person for that person? this line somehow suggests its about falling in love in general; is there even such a thing?
isnt it more a case of women wondering why the men they like dont like them? i remember a show (i think oprah?) a long time ago where the line was “hes just not that into you”. isnt it just that? that often either the man or the woman isnt that into the other one? arent we treating what is essentially a spectrum of interest as an on-off black or white situation? ive been told “you have to learn to play the game of love” by a woman. is it really a game when both sides can get so hurt that they close off, like the UA guys and some really disillusioned ladies here? i dont think so. and eventho its a fight i try to believe in a LTR that makes both me and my partner grow.
ive asked a lot of women in private about this thing of grades of interest. and it turns out that they use the exact classifications and corresponding behaviors when it comes to dealing with the other gender: either marry/ltr, sex/casual, platonic and ignore.
turns out both sides are really human, also in that respect.
and yes it really blows to get rejected. so i understand why women try to avoid it. men try to avoid it too. it doesnt help an open and honest talk about it either way.
in the end it all comes down to honesty: if you dont tell a person honestly and completely what your limits are, you deprive them of the chance to make an informed independent choice to either say yes or no to it. and that ruins the basis for any relationship.
im not trying to stir up trouble, just asking questions aloud here, since its something that sort of keeps me busy. on the positive side: theres over 7 billion of us out there, there should be a great match just being him/herself out there.
Tom,
When you fall in love, you’re going to fall hard. Probably to some beautiful ingenue. I used to love Barbara Cartland romances when I was growing up. You sound exactly like the Marquis and Duke roues she wrote about. lol
You just haven’t met the right girl yet. When you do, you won’t know what hit you. Wouldn’t I love to be a fly on the wall then.
@ Selena
Yup — I’m 30. Nah it doesn’t worry me at all. I have several friends who are the same, although they are dropping one by — it’s just that they don’t tend to write into blogs for women trying to fall in love. (Guess what type of websites they tend to spend more time on?). We’re just late developers.
I agree with your differentiation between legitimate emotional unavailability and simply someone who “doesn’t want the same kind of relationship you want”. I can see how it can be an easy ego balm for someone to say such and such is EU rather than accept that they’re simply not interested.
@ Karmic
“roué” — ha what a blast from the past. Just checked out the term in Wikipedia:
“these men distinguished themselves in drinking, womanising and witty conversation”.
Yep that sounds about right. 🙂
I’ll let ya know how it goes.
PS. I snore pretty badly too — although not as much when I sleep on my side or front. I always warn women in advance but they never seem to mind (at least they don’t tell me if they do). I actually find it cute when women snore. I keep my place fairly clean though. 😉
“I actually find it cute when women snore.”
Hmmm. I think I need to create a checklist just to add this to it. Then I wouldn’t be so self-conscious. Or have to do the female version of hit-and-run at the beginning of a relationship. [rolls eyes]
Karmic, Karmic,
what about inner beauty? 🙂
“Ingenue” covers that doesn’t it? Youthful in spirit. Un-embittered. Sweet. 🙂
It’s important to remember that a lot of the dark, intense, charismatic men of this type are actually narcissists and sociopaths. Tom doesn’t seem to be one of them, luckily.
Even so, these cluster-B bad guys definitely seem to thrive on the romantic notions many of us harbor about wicked, handsome men just looking for a woman virtuous and vulnerable enough to inspire them to reform. I think it’s important to remember this– a lot of men are EU because they lack empathy on a pathological level. They can’t be redeemed, and are actually toxic manipulators.
And a lot of “hot” women are batshit crazy; and most women are “needy” and/or “insecure” and/or “controlling”…There’s a lot of stereotypes out there, Robin. So should men only date ugly women to avoid the crazy ones or should they just avoid dating altogether so that they don’t have to deal with a woman’s insecurity or neediness or women trying to change him?
As Kiki said in another thread, it’s probably easier to find a handsome man who is a good person [to have a relationship with] than to find a beautiful woman who’s a good person [to have a relationship with]. There are far fewer sociopaths and narcissists than there are women who are needy, insecure, or controlling.
Don’t be afraid of men. Or try to make them out to be monsters, because they’re “charismatic” or what not. Just develop a better picker and you can date good looking men as well as ugly ones. Just be realistic about whether or not you can get a good looking guy to commit to you. If he doesn’t it doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy.
@Robin
You are spot on !
I have been reading the entire discussion and was waiting for someone to finally diffiranciate/ clarify EU.
In fact, EUs are mentally emotionally disturbed Individuals, pathological liers, manipulator who luck empathy ; therefor they is no way of connecting emotionally to others.
We are mistaking ( as someone mentioned already ) Committment Unavable with Emotinoally Unavalable.
Two different state of minds.
Tom10 your the first person to make any sence.
I came back to read the original SingleBlackMale article and I wish I hadn’t. As spot on and illuminating as these things are, they further harden me to men, not because I don’t accept the truth of how they are, but because I accept it TOO well and am starting to find it hard to even see ostensibly good guys as really being good . I agree with what this woman said in the other blogs comment section:
” telling the truth” does not make you a good man and relieve you from all accountability. You want to have your cake and eat it, too. You know full well emotions are not run by the brain. But you think as long as you keep pretending she was notified and therefore, whatever she feels is all on her. Convenient escape. But you are responsible if you conduct yourself as if you are in a relationship and instigate a routine with a woman and she begins to feel something.I think you emotionally unavailable men really want the woman to fall for you . Why? Because the benefits you get (the cake) are much sweeter when she’s emotionally invested. If she took you at your word and uninvested her emotions, you would not enjoy it so much. How do I know this? Because I’ve been involved with a lot of men like you. So i have something approaching a sample. Men get really uncomfortable when, after they tell a woman not to catch feelings, she actually doesn’t. When she keeps her other friends and never asks where the relationship is going. There is no conquest, no game. Men say they want this, but when they get it, they go looking for a girl with true love fantasies. So your get out of jail free card ” i told her” is really a con. A hustle.
I think there may be something to the comment you quoted. There are websites and Craig’s list ads for people looking for “no strings attached” sex, casual encounters etc. If a man truly wanted sex with no emotional attachment, why not seek a woman who is actively seeking the same ? Then there would be no need to “notify” her via the “disclaimer” (google Marni Battista about the disclaimer) I think there is some sort of social status and/or ego gratification for the people who are in these NSA non-relationships, relationships, to be the one who is putting the breaks on emotional connection, and to be the object of someone’s desire. I mostly see women with men who are just not into them, pining away for a man who doesn’t return their feelings, but I have seen it the other way around too. There just seems to be some sort of smugness on the part of the person who has the upper hand. When they speak of the “non relationship, relationship” and how they “notified” the other person they weren’t serious, but the other person behaves as if they were , just makes me want to ask “Are you bragging or complaining ?”
I still say the BEST solution is to walk away as soon as the disclaimer or notification has been issued. If you WANT to be in a relationship with mutual feelings of affection, why waste your time in a one sided relationship ? Even if you do have the ability to turn off your feelings, is that what you REALLY want ? Wouldn’t you RATHER be in a relationship where you can set your feelings free, rather than have to turn them off ?
” Men get really uncomfortable when, after they tell a woman not to catch feelings, she actually doesn’t. ”
Quoted for truth.
Your first paragraph in this post articulates exactly how I feel. I accept that men are as they are, I have no interest in trying to change them, etc. But it has hardened me to them as well. I keep thinking that maybe I’ll get past it and open up again, but it’s not looking good at this point. I’m just very apathetic.
And reading all of these comments reminds me why I have developed a preference for foreign women. I have no desire to enter into relationship combat. I’m a good man and I am sick of having to deal with this kind of attitude. You ladies admit it, you are hardened against men. Do I want to deal with that? No. I’m sure I am not alone. Maybe the fact is, in your zeal to ward off the bad guys, you beat up the good guys too, and they walk away thinking you are simply a hard hearted B_tch.
Who knows, maybe those foreign women think the same thing about the men in their country but since I am not one of those men, they do not group me in with them. Maybe that’s part of what is different. I don’t know. I do know that love certainly feels like a battlefield…here. Who wants that?
I watched that video Evan linked…the one about the economics of sex. The one that states that women were once the gate keepers of sex. OK, this is a man speaking, and the video said that we men are the gate keepers of marriage, and that’s because sex has become so free and easy. I personally wish that it wasn’t. This stuff we see above. All of this hard hearted stuff, I don’t think our grandparents had to deal with this stuff. I think that when women fulfilled the role they were born to fill, and raised the bar for men, men answered the call. The woman above said, “Men want to have their cake and eat it too.” Well, I think that is what happened with women. You wanted to have free sex, and retain the power over it. But it didn’t work out for you. This is the result. As the video said…men don’t need to get married…and frankly…for most men, marriage is fraught with risks. So in that I could also say that women want their cake and eat it too. Want to be taken care of in court, and expect the men not to take notice of that. It is a reality that men have taken notice.
But the real point here is this. If you act hard hearted. If you “test” men in your zeal to weed out the losers…holding men’s feet to the fire, etc…you aren’t going to find any good men. For one, you aren’t perfect, news flash, neither are men. I’ve talked with many men about this and many state that they have been on many 1st, and even 2nd and 3rd dates that feel more like job interviews than what it is supposed to be. It is supposed to be an enjoyable night out with a woman you would like to get to know.
Also, you get those women who are so determined to not be their mothers, or grandmothers…you know…those women that you modern women seem to think of as weak. You are so determined not to be them. you act too tough, too aggressive…want to compete with the man….test him…see if he has the right stuff…see if he deserves you.
Men don’t want to compete with women. They want to love them. Men want to compete with other men. That’s what we did for years. Competed with other men…for everything, including women. Women we loved…if they let us. We expect aggression from men, and the same for toughness, etc…
It all boils down to what Evan said…we want a woman that makes us feel good…and feel good about our selves. Most of you women spend so much time testing us and trying to beat us down to see if we measure up, we just end up exhausted and irritated. I know a lot of you women think you never do anything wrong, that it is the guy…he just poofs. Well, one of my first roommates had a saying. I will modify it slightly to retain the meaning but make it less vulgar. he would break up with a girl and I would ask him what happened. he would say, “The Kitty cat to BS ratio got out of hand.”
Now…what can that BS look like. Well, there are many ways, but one such way was detailed in a magazine article went like this. True story by the way. This guy gets home from work and the trash cans are at the end of the driveway, but only blocking his wife’s side of the driveway. He intends to move them after taking care of something inside, but gets distracted and doesn’t. His wife arrives a little later and he gets up to greet her with a very warm and cheery words and an offered to help her with the grocery bags she has. She walks past him with the groceries and her dry cleaning, and growls and spats at him stating that she had to park a few houses down in the street because somebody didn’t collect the trash cans.
As he starts to head out to collect the cans and then move her car to the driveway, she gets a phone call. She stops putting the groceries away and answers the phone. It’s her friend that has just stood her up for a lunch date for the 3rd time in 2 months. Instead of ripping her head off like she did her husbands, she talks to her all sweet, and when the woman apologizes, she sweetly brushes it off as nothing. No big deal. The whole phone call all sweet and friendly.
Its wrong. We men are supposed to be your best friend. We are supposed to get your kind and gentle words. We are supposed to get your patience. We are supposed to get your forgiveness. If you can’t do that please stop looking for a man. We screw up. It’s in our DNA.
We don’t need or want somebody who makes us feel like crap. We get enough of that at work.
Beautiful writing RustyLH and I agree with many of your points here. Would be interested to know your views on the vice versa, how women should be treated by decent respectful men.
So funny!!! This article was in my feed and was kimming through and saw your name! Small world!
Karl R – 2
Oh God, stringing along a woman who is good enough for now?
Where does honesty come into it? Or doesn’t it? Or maybe, I’m just naïve and should go out with men I don’t care enough about either, because they’re good enough for me now.
I like some of your articles but I hate when we gotta “challenge” a man to get what we want. Why play so many dang games? I feel like, if what I’m doing isn’t jiving with what he’s doing, then he’s not for me… Time to move on. I’m in my late 30’s and I don’t need anyone who needs to be helped along by mind games. With that said, I agree with if he’s not acting like a boyfriend then leave him alone, if that’s what you want. I get to the point where I don’t “sweat” anyone until I really get to know them. That way I’m not hurt and if I need to move on I can without being hung up. I’ll show my interest for a while, but it he’s not reciprocating, he must not be all that interested in me.
Does anyone have an answer?? In response to Judy’s post #14 and Selena’s post # 15.1.1. What is the person who is honest upfront to do? If honestly doesn’t work without someone getting hurt and lying doesn’t work without someone getting hurt.
You don’t want to be alone, but you don’t want to let someone string “THEMSELVES” along either…
Gabriel, let me turn it around for you.
There is a girl you have a crush on, and you have been on a few dates with her. You have done your best performance, and even though she is kind and sweet, every time you try to get closer to her physically, she pulls back. You are extra careful not to push too hard, and you strongly want to make her like you. Still, you are unsure because she might have as well put you in the friend zone, and she might have already made up her mind that she would not want to sleep with you. You want to know but you would not dare to ask. May be it is too early for her to get physical, but may be she already knows that she never would?
Should she tell it to you straight in your face or should she be giving you hints, hoping that you will figure it out?
My advice – treat others like you would like to be treated.
Kiki, your analogy makes sense. But I disagree that a man has an obligation to treat every woman as if she’s looking for a relationship. I would only agree with your premise if you tell every woman to treat every man like he’s only looking for sex. That’s actually what Evan tells all women here, but instead of RUNNING with that knowledge most women would rather tell the guy to change so that it makes HER job easier.
There is a LOT of fun to be had in dating and figuring out the other person. In trying to see if you can charm the other person into liking you. In trying to make the other person laugh. In trying to figure out what you have in common, what you don’t. That’s what women should be focused on when she’s dating…not whether this guy is EU or ready for commitment. That will reveal itself over time. We women just have to be astute enough to notice and not let our hopes blind us to reality.
Dating is fun. Getting to know a man is fun. Charming a man is fun. Making him laugh is fun. Making him yearn to kiss you is fun. Getting him to reveal himself over time is fun. Him learning about you little by little is fun.
Have fun when you date. Have CEO energy to be confident and aware. But don’t treat dating like it’s a job function. Men date to have fun. They try to charm you into having sex with them. You try to charm them into having a relationship with you. May the best charmer win!
Karmic,
I never said that men should assume that the woman wants a relationship. I think that most women might actually like to have a relationship, but not necessarily with that particular man.
So, the point of dating is for two people to figure out how much they like each other and what kind of relationship both want to have. But if you already know that you have limited interest in the person whereas he/she clearly wants a relationship? I think it would be dishonest to mislead them.
I think this “buyer beware” attitude advocated by Tom 10 and Karl R is cruel. It probably develops as a self-preservation mechanism after you have been hurt. But every time a read here how a girl has been hurt or disappointed, my heart goes for her, and I wish to console her, whereas many posters will rush to add insult to injury. This very sad to me.
@ Kiki
“But if you already know that you have limited interest in the person whereas he/she clearly wants a relationship? I think it would be dishonest to mislead them”.
That is fair enough. But how do you define “clearly wants a relationship”?
Because my experience has been that most women are *not* clear in expressing their desire for a relationship, and are even deliberately vague so as not to appear “pushy”.
That said, if a man/woman genuinely makes it clear that they want a relationship — through direct communication — then I agree that it would be dishonest to mislead them.
“I think this “buyer beware” attitude advocated by Tom10 and Karl R is cruel…every time a read here how a girl has been hurt or disappointed, my heart goes for her, and I wish to console her, whereas many posters will rush to add insult to injury. This very sad to me.”
It is not my intention to wish to add insult to injury to a girl who has been hurt or disappointed; in fact I would rather console her too.
But from a guy’s perspective, women in this situation are effectively “cheating” the dating game in order to snag a guy she probably isn’t able of snagging long-term, and then complaining afterwards when their tactic didn’t work.
From our perspective women who “date” (i.e. have sex with) guys without commitment — in spite of commitment being her *actual* desire — are trying to use non-committed sex to snag a guy she isn’t actually able to snag long-term. The result is all too predictable: the guy will inevitably lose interest and move on once she pushes for more, leaving the girl “hurt and disappointed”. If she was playing fair (to herself) she would insist on commitment first, and be prepared to let the guy move on if he wasn’t prepared to give it.
So whereas you think I’m being cruel, I’m actually just wondering: “well, what did she expect would happen?”
@ Karmic Equation
“Men date to have fun. They try to charm you into having sex with them. You try to charm them into having a relationship with you. May the best charmer win!”
Amen 🙂
Kiki, I agree, treat others as you want to be treated. Don’t think for a second that it is only men or even just more of them. Women play games too.
@ Gabri’el # 19
“What is the person who is honest upfront to do? If honestly doesn’t work without someone getting hurt and lying doesn’t work without get someone getting hurt…You don’t want to be alone, but you don’t want to let someone string “THEMSELVES” along either…”
My default position is that if one is over 18, and of sound mind and body then they’re an adult and should be treated as such. Therefore, their feelings, emotions and sexuality are their responsibility to manage — no-one else’s. If one is old enough to have sex then they’re old enough to deal with the consequences.
What constantly surprises me though is how many educated grown-ups refuse to take this responsibility and blame everyone else’s behavior instead examining their own. I honestly don’t know how these people live ordinary functional adult lives. How do they manage jobs and obtain mortgages if they can’t even manage their own emotions?
What surprises me even more is how people can be hurt once and then repeat the same mistakes not once, but over and over.
Sigh. Sometimes I feel that people should be given the choice to either A) Manage their own lives and sexuality, or B) Let the government manage it for them. Should they choose A) then they can never moan about being pumped and dumped or strung-along etc. Should they choose B) they can only have sex within wedlock.
That said, I recognize that these feelings can be powerful so one should treat others with respect and care, therefore there is a moral compunction to be honest at all times.
In conclusion, if you don’t lie to anyone then your behavior is acceptable. Being upfront is being very considerate and probably the right thing to do. Don’t do any ‘boyfriendy’ type behavior also helps. Going beyond that is exceeding your obligations and infantilizes the other party. If you are still uncomfortable then it is probably better to be alone.
@ Kiki # 19.1
The scenario you painted has happened to me — and I’m sure most other guys. But I made damn sure never to be friend-zoned again. I have limited sympathy for guys who don’t learn their lesson the first time and do the same.
Tom10:
Love makes you responsibility. Not being in love or infatuated with a person but REAL love. It.s very definition means putting another’s needs before your own. We should have this for everyone of our fellow brothers and sisters. Our humane responsibility!
There’s alot of pain here and I truly pray that if we learn nothing we can each remember the potential of our actions to hurt one another!
Thanks Gabri’el !
Gabriel,
I’m going to buck the trend of the other women here. Be yourself. You’ve already shown that you want to be thoughtful and considerate of women’s feelings. That is all the foundation you need. It’s the woman’s responsibility to manage her own expectations. Not yours to manage them for her. Don’t drink from that Koolaid.
You should ask Tom10 how he inserts the “I’m not looking for anything serious” into his conversations. Over dinner? In the car ride to someone’s place? As the clothes are coming off? Before they even go on a date? I think as long as you say that (per Tom10’s guidance) you’ve done your duty. It’s then in the woman’s court. You might get laid less often, but the ones who are on board with nothing serious you don’t have to worry as much about.
I’m getting attached to my trainer, I must admit. But he’s age-inappropriate for me, so that helps me keep my feelings in check 🙂 Maybe you should consider dating older women while you’re in your not-looking-for-serious phase 🙂
What did my trainer say to me the other day as we were having breakfast? “Older women are heaven. They can carry a conversation face-to-face. Women my age and younger grew up texting and don’t know how to have face-to-face conversations with rapid-paced dialogue. Girls in their 20’s are dumb and insecure. But older women, they’re confident. They have interesting things to talk about. They’re nicer. They’re horny as hell. And they have more money. Heaven.” He says with a blissful eyeroll.
True dat 😉
You really are amazing!
I admire you for your attitude, and I will definitely try it on for size! If someone has said this to me, all I would have heard would be ” you’re too old for me”. I should definitely work on myself to be hearing positive messages and not negative. Thank you!
Thanks, Kiki. I’m not amazing. Unusual I’ll take 🙂
Seriously though. I make a choice every day to be happy. And choosing to hear the positive is one of them. And it’s easy as long as you believe that people never mean to hurt you, but instead mean to be supportive. However, things don’t come out right all the time.
Ah yes, an answer to b
Ah yes, an answer to Judy and Selena; if a significant other makes me feel we are connected time over time when we’re together & all other reinforcement is there, intimacy, holidays, family, friends, etc. Then why wouldn’t I be unglued when I hear him tell someone else that we’re “friends”? If a guy doesn’t have the capacity to be real or consistent from one moment to the next then he is Emotionally unavailable and crazy. Why should I be happy about being on an emotional roller coaster with a man I’ve loved & invested my time in who behaves this way. Why is it ok for him to be duplicitous, two-faced and make me look like a fool- what past of that is loving kindness? In my situation, I’m supportive, a great listener and easy going to a fault & Subjected to insaniy -going through the same thing over & over again and expecting different results. why don’t we deserve men who can be real from one miniute to the next; no matter how sincere, all that matters to him is hm . It’s a
take it or leave it attitude – nothing loving about it.
Gabe
People are going to get hurt, no matter how what the disclaimers are. With the added piquancy that everyone tells them they’ve no right to feel hurt! I guess you decide – does my loneliness/desire for company trump someone else’s hurt?
Of course, it may be that two people decide that a limited (or whatever term) relationship suits them both, though over time it can suit one more than the other. It may also help to keep these dalliances very very short. Like a week or two. Or a night.
I think there is a huge difference between a guy who is emotionally unavailable and a guy who is just playing the field. A properly EU guy can be extremely manipulative, e.g. as others have testified, you tell them to b*gger off, but they keep coming back. EU is also a symptom of guys with bigger issues, like narcissism, and these type of people are extremely emotionally damaging. So I’m sorry, but I think that article is hugely superficial and as many others do, just trying to rationally justify crappy behaviour. Sometimes, women are being targeted by guys who just want to mess you about. I’ve dated guys who just want to play the field and I’ve dated guys who are EU. The guys who aren’t ready for a relationship have always been honest and straightforward; they say it straight and then they don’t continue their pursuit. That is the choice they are making because they don’t want to treat a woman badly. The EU guy, they say it – actually they don’t always – they give hints, but they continue their pursuit. They are not the easy, decent, happy guys, that article would like us to believe, because if they were, they would behave like the former guy I described. I’m not saying that women have no responsibility here – I’ve seen many a girl, myself included, engage in the game – but what annoys me is that it is promoting this myth that men don’t have a choice as to whether to mess a girl around or not. And no – you don’t have to treat a woman like crap etc etc, but yes, you do cut contact if you aren’t interested and she is too invested. It is hard for women to snap out of it (especially if sex is involved – hello oxytocin), but why should it be left purely to women to bear responsibility for this and act against their desires, when apparently it is just as hard for men to choose not to use a woman for sex or whatever other self-gratification they want that day. Anyway, I appreciate what the reality is, but articles like that annoy me as they seem like they’re shifting the blame onto women for staying involved with these ‘poor’, ‘well intentioned’, guys who can’t choose to override their dicks. It’s not always the woman’s fault. (Apols if I’m sounding angry. I just clambered out of a r/ship with a guy who I believe is a narcissist. They are emotionally damaging – I was lucky as it didn’t go on too long – but yes, he was emotionally unavailable, but not in the trivial manner that that article suggests. It’s pretty insulting actually).
@ Maya #21
I hear you on the ‘trivial’ aspect of the article. When I read it I got a “Hey I’m a decent guy, don’t blame me if you don’t want to be Thursday girl” vibe off it. And then down at the end the part where he says the longer the woman accepts so little, the more she becomes devalued in his eyes. I’m thinking: if she has so little value, why are you keeping this going?
Every time I’ve been in a dating situation that didn’t progress out of the casual level either the guy or I would end it. Somewhere between 4-10 weeks. Forget value, it becomes uncomfortable to continue dating someone when you sense their feelings have become stronger than your own.
My take-away from the article was basically “hanging in there” does a woman no good. Guy is not going to suddenly fall in love with “Thursday girl”. Patience may be a virtue, but not one that will be rewarded by Mr. Casual.
@Selena
Totally agree with you – esp the bit about it becoming uncomfortable/awkward when the r/ship becomes too one sided. And if a guy is continuing to pursue a girl that is devalued in his eyes then that’s kind of weird, for the same reason.
I think what annoyed me was the tone, and I think they are using the term EU out of context. EUs can and do get married, but apparently it’s often a pretty painful experience. I don’t think that’s the guy they’re describing. Same guidelines though, admittedly. Except run faster! 🙂
“What constantly surprises me though is how many educated grown-ups refuse to take this responsibility and blame everyone else’s behavior instead examining their own. I honestly don’t know how these people live ordinary functional adult lives. How do they manage jobs and obtain mortgages if they can’t even manage their own emotions?”
Because love/feelings/emotions are in a different sphere than business like activities such as managing a job & obtaining a mortgage. That’s like being surprised that someone can be a very gifted mathematician, but a lousy basketball player.
“Sigh. Sometimes I feel that people should be given the choice to either A) Manage their own lives and sexuality, or B) Let the government manage it for them. Should they choose A) then they can never moan about being pumped and dumped or strung-along etc. Should they choose B) they can only have sex within wedlock.”
It’s called “freedom of speech”. If people want to talk about the all the variations in human relationships, including one night stands, “friends with benefits” etc. then the first amendment says we are allowed to do so, either to say “humping and dumping” is wonderful or “humping and dumping” is not an activity I wish to engage in. The gov’t should not regulate certain individuals differently because they have the “wrong” opinion on hump and dumps, FWB, etc.
Would you also be in favor that if any one ever moaned and groaned about being “Friend zoned” that they should not be allowed to socialize with members of the opposite sex, but must limit their interactions with the opposite sex to prostitutes ? After all, money will be exchanged, and you will get EXACTLY what you want, NSA sex. (the only string being that you pay her X amount of dollars)
I realize that you were mostly being tongue in cheek, with your gov’t policing of our lives based on our expressed feelings towards sex/love & emotions, but guys moan and groan when a woman they have no interest in having a relationship with, won’t bed down with them in 3 dates or less. (Preferably date 1) They calling it being “Friend Zoned”, but in reality, they are just mad because the friendship doesn’t include “benefits”. They don’t want anything beyond being friends to begin with.
@ Sparkling Emerald #22
“Because love/feelings/emotions are in a different sphere than business like activities such as managing a job & obtaining a mortgage”
We’ll just have to disagree on this so. I see them as being in the same sphere — the adult sphere. That’s why the judicial system is more lenient on juveniles — it recognizes that juveniles mightn’t have learned how to take full control of their love/feelings/emotions. It does expect adults however, to assume this responsibility.
“It’s called freedom of speech…the gov’t should not regulate certain individuals differently because they have the “wrong” opinion on hump and dumps, FWB. etc”
Well, as you already acknowledged I was writing tongue in cheek. I don’t actually advocate the government taking control of the behavior of individuals; in fact as a devout libertarian I actually believe the absolute autonomy of the individual. Just moaning is my personal bug bear.
“guys moan and groan when a woman they have no interest in having a relationship with them, won’t bed down them in 3 dates or less”
I have no sympathy for guys who moan and groan either. I meet women all the time who won’t bed down in 3 dates or less. I have no problem with them and respect their decision to have sex when it suits them. But I take control of my situation; therefore I cut them off and move onto women who will bed down in 3 dates or less. No moaning, no groaning required. Everyone is happy.
“(Preferably date 1)”
You mean preferably before date 1. lol
Tom @23 said “You mean preferably before date 1. lol”
Tom, you REAL preference is probably INSTEAD of date 1. 🙂
For some reason my replies aren’t going under the comment I am commenting on, they just go to the end of the comment thread, so some of my previous comments may seem a tad confusing.
chelle said: (#16)
“‘telling the truth’ does not make you a good man and relieve you from all accountability. You want to have your cake and eat it, too. You know full well emotions are not run by the brain. But you think as long as you keep pretending she was notified and therefore, whatever she feels is all on her. Convenient escape. But you are responsible if you conduct yourself as if you are in a relationship and instigate a routine with a woman and she begins to feel something.”
My brother (a complete mal chauvinist) would appreciate your opinion. It reinforces everything that he believes about women. He believes that women shouldn’t be given responsibility for making important decisions, because they are weak and ruled by their emotions. He believes that everyone (including women) would be happier if women just let men do their thinking for them.
My own experience:
I was a late bloomer, so my first “relationship” (I use the term loosely, since it was a friends-with-benefits thing) happened when I was 22. After a few months, I began developing feelings for the woman. Obviously, those feelings were not reciprocated.
Even as an inexperienced and under-confident young man, I realized that a one-sided emotional attachment would only end up hurting me, so I immediately broke things off. My friend continued to invite me over for sex, but I declined, since that FWB relationship wasn’t working for me.
chelle, (#16)
Your feelings don’t relieve you of your own accountability. You’re an adult. If anyone knows what’s best for you, it’s you. If anyone should be looking out for your best interest, it’s you. If you want someone to forbid you from choosing to do something that might be a bad idea, go live with your parents. It’s not your date’s job to provide parental guidance.
judy asked: (#17)
“Oh God, stringing along a woman who is good enough for now? Where does honesty come into it? Or doesn’t it?”
I’ve always been a fan of honesty. I’m honest with myself about what I want (and don’t want). I was honest with my partners once I’d decided what I wanted.
There are a lot of men and women who don’t consciously think things through. I’ve dated several women like that. They can’t tell you where they want the relationship to go, because they’ve never thought about it.
I still recommend that you look out for your own interest. You can learn a lot just by listening. Anything else you can learn by asking questions. If the person doesn’t want to think about where the relationship is going to go, it’s a clear signal that it’s never going to become permanent.
There are even a few who will just tell you what they think you want to hear so they can get what they want. If you discover that your boyfriend/girlfriend behaves that way with other people, then you can safely bet they are willing to do the same with you.
Sparkling Emerald asked: (#16.1)
“There are websites and Craig’s list ads for people looking for ‘no strings attached’ sex, casual encounters etc. If a man truly wanted sex with no emotional attachment, why not seek a woman who is actively seeking the same?”
1. Most of us start most of our relationships in person.
2. What a man wants from a relationship depends a lot on the woman he’s in a relationship with. (The same is true for women.) I was looking for a long-term committed relationship, but only with a fraction of the women I dated.
3. The men want some emotional connection. Just not the kind that leads to marriage. They may be looking for FWB, not an NSA one night stand.
4. Those NSA sex websites have an 8:1 male to female ratio. (By comparison, Match has around a 5:4 ratio, eHarmony has a 1:1 ratio.) Most of the men who use those sites don’t get casual encounters.
Sparkling Emerald said: (#16.1)
“I still say the BEST solution is to walk away as soon as the disclaimer or notification has been issued. If you WANT to be in a relationship with mutual feelings of affection, why waste your time in a one sided relationship?”
That’s certainly a good policy. Since you have determined that it’s the best policy for you, I would recommend that you follow that policy.
marymary said: (#20)
“People are going to get hurt, no matter how what the disclaimers are. […] I guess you decide — does my loneliness/desire for company trump someone else’s hurt?”
That’s a good answer. In any relationship, someone will potentially get hurt. It might be me. It might be the other person.
As an adult, I can voluntarily decide to take that risk. The other person can voluntarily decide to take that risk too. (It’s only logical to assume that they may also feel lonely or desire companionship.) Each of us can decide whether the potential rewards trump the potential risks.
marymary said: (#20)
“With the added piquancy that everyone tells them they’ve no right to feel hurt!”
It’s okay to feel hurt. That’s normal human behavior. But it’s immature to blame the other person for the hurt feelings (unless they actually did something unethical, like lying or cheating).
Karl,
From the few encounters we have had on this blog, I gather that you take it as your personal mission to educate women how they are the master of their destiny, and that you are well-meaning when you make insensitive comments regarding their life choices/beliefs.
In the context of the current discussion, quoting the opinion of your shovinst brother was very rude.
Most (possiby all) of the women around here are smart, strong, and successful, but simply have not met the love of their life yet. I though I needed to remind you that.
Sorry, Karl R, a person having accountability for their own feelings doesn’t entitle you to knowingly hurt them and still claim to be a “good guy”.
I have heard many men who only want casual relationships say they are “fond of” the woman they sleep with, and that it is more fun if there is at least some emotional connection. They cultivate this. They enjoy having someone to talk to, someone who cares about what happens to them, the attention. They enjoy the aspects of a relationship that are convenient to them, and with the ones that aren’t, they bring out the “we’re not committed” card. It reminds one of treating women like a smorgusboard – taking the bits they like, and leaving the ones they don’t. Most of these men *know* the women are getting attached, and will thus get hurt, and they proceed anyway. And still want to claim to be a “good guy”.
A good guy wouldn’t want to knowingly hurt someone in the first place, notwithstanding that the person is an adult and is responsible for their own feelings. If I yell at someone in my office, knowing it will hurt them, I can’t claim to be a good person just because they have the ability to leave.
“It’s okay to feel hurt. That’s normal human behavior. But it’s immature to blame the other person for the hurt feelings (unless they actually did something unethical, like lying or cheating).”
It’s hard to tell the diff between someone who lied or someone who changed their mind. Good policy is to avoid jumping in too soon.
Oh, and thanks for recommending that I follow my own policy 🙂
Karl
Your brother is right, all those female Harvard graduates should really come and consult him before they attempt to decide which font to type their resumes in. They might cry themselves into dehydration if they cant find a pretty one.
my post wasn’t meant to absolve women of the responsibility of walking away, and though no one is obligated to have high character with the opposite sex. With a guy I have no attraction to, I avoid using him for certain needs even if he seems ok with being used on my terms. I don’t ask to come hang at his place and cuddle when I’m lonely even though I’ve told him I only see him as a friend and won’t sleep with him. Why? Because I have enough experience with guys who say they’re ok with it and then turning out to be *gasp* human, and having a change of feelings later. Could I be put it on him that he said he was fine being my convenient pillow? Sure, but for me to disavow how guys work and treat him like HE’s the problem is a little disingenuous on my part. JUST a little.
Thanks Chelle – I have decided to not have a “friend zone” this time for that very reason, because in my past incarnation, I have had a few “guy friends” who were basically men that I had rejected as romantic partners, who offered to stick around as friends. (I usually don’t accept the friendship consolation prize when I’m the one being rejected, did that once and it was gut wrenching & stupid on my part)
However, there are 2 guys who have just ended up in my friend zone by chance. They are not really guys who I have rejected or have rejected me, there was just sort of a mutual lack of interest in anything romantic, but occasionally they will call & ask me out to a movie or dinner. I NEVER initiate, and I have to wrestle them to let me pay for my share of the check. Or to let me treat them to a glass of wine at intermission for a concert they treated me to with their season tickets.
There are times when I feel like I should cut them off, since I made a “no friend zone” commitment to myself when I split from my x-hubby. Since they don’t seem to have a real romantic and/or sexual interest in me, and all of our time together is at THEIR initiation, and I don’t ask them to be my handyman or shoulder to cry on, then I guess this is OK. For some reason, I still feel a pang of guilt, don’t know why. It would be silly to cut them off (and it’s very sporadic anyway) just because I made some sort of “no friend zone” commitment, and I am not aware of any hurt feelings or grand plan to turn this into a friends with benefits situation.
Chelle,
Women don’t “use” men the same way men use men. When women friend zone a man, she’ll call him if she has flat tire or needs a ride somewhere. She’ll call him to cry about how poorly another man has been treating her. She’ll call him to the movies because she her girlfriends can’t go and she doesn’t want to go alone.
Think in “equivalents” instead of “exact” when it comes to how men and women use each other. We don’t use men for sex, but we’ll use him to our handyman, our mover, our taxi. Men don’t use us like that, so by your standards, shouldn’t we give him credit for refraining from using us like we use them?
Tom 19.2 – the quick answer to you. People cannot always handle their emotions because, while being adult, they are not machines.
So the woman doesn’t want to sleep with you after three dates? Tough. I think she’s right personally, because she’s sussed out the situation- or maybe she’s into emotionless sex.
That’s what some “adults” do – it’s called “making out, making love, making mindless, heartless sex”.
I’ll drink to that, but in the meantime, I’m still holding out for the man who makes love with his heart.
Reading a few of the comments on here, maybe I should go out with a new attitude.
Date men, not give a hoot about their feelings, sleep with them without a thought, and then move on.
It’s a tough old world when a woman thinks like that.
But my God do some men deserve it.
Judy, Judy, Judy (spoken with a Cary Gran accent)
Sex is great exercise. I highly recommend it if you hate going to the gym. And if you don’t think it’s exercise then you’re doing it all wrong.
Who saying sex is “mindless and heartless” — please link to those posts.
Only prostitutes and dysfunctional people have mindless and heartless sex. Are you calling men mindless and heartless or are you calling them prostitutes? If so why would you want to have a relationship with these miscreants?
A lot of normal people (let’s call them men) can have sex without getting all twisted up inside. A lot of other normal people (let’s call them women) can’t have sex without getting twisted up in knots inside. Then there are other normal people (let’s call them sexually liberated women, who actually take advantage of and understand what sexual liberation truly means and don’t just use it as a term to bash men over the head with) — can have sex without getting all twisted up inside. There’s nothing wrong with being normal.
“Miscreants”? I love this one, together with inguenue and roue, and have been trying to find a context to use them for the last two days, to no avail :-).
On sex as great exercise: fully agree.
But. The problem with enjoying sex as exercise for a woman is the double standards according to which women with many partners are thought to accumulate mileage like a car, whereas men with many partners are thought to accumulate stars like an army general.
So, for a woman, you need some thick skin too, besides a more liberated mind. Just my two cents.
“Miscreants”? I love this one, together with inguenue and roue, and have been trying to find a context to use them for the last two days, to no avail”
Nope 🙂 They just came out of me unbidden. Sometimes I don’t where these words come from. I read over 2000 from the time I was 8 to 39. You end up with with an impressive vocabulary unwittingly.
My skin is plenty thick. But I have and will always take issue when women imply that sex is only worth having in a relationship, as if sex were something sacred. It’s a normal biological function that mankind has marketed as sacred to women so that women are now in the position they find themselves. Railing at double standards. Hoping men will give them relationships so that they can give themselves permission to do what comes naturally (sex).
Being virtuous only has value if you’re a virgin. Once you’re no longer a virgin and more so when you’ve become a mother, the only value in being virtuous is to cater to the hypocritical men (those with the double standards) that you think you want to have a relationship with. I don’t have either relations or relationships with hypocrites. Maybe that’s why I haven’t felt burned by men.
Wow. I’ve had three kids and still consider it “virtuous” to remain sexually pure. I guess I’m just some sort of freak or something. Oh well, I never did run with the cool kids. I guess I’ll continue being a social misfit as it works well for me.
Starthrower68 – You’ve said this exact thing probably 20 times before on this blog. You know that, right?
Ok sorry. I promise just to read from now on.
Karmic Equation 28.1. No need for the Cary Grant accent. No I never said that men are mindless and heartless in the plural and I’m glad that I know that decent men exist.
Prostitutes for me at least have the decency to call the shots – I’m doing this just for the money.
I personally do not feel the need to bash men up. Sexual liberation is, for me, a soft way of saying cheap unattached sex but whatever. Feel free and do whatever rings your bells.
Thanks to Tom and Karl as well for pointing out their version of honesty (and there is no intention of vinegar here).
@ Karmic Equation # 27
“Women don’t “use” men the same way men use men. When women friend zone a man, she’ll call him if she has flat tire or needs a ride somewhere…She’ll call him to the movies because she her girlfriends can’t go and she doesn’t want to go alone.”
Aargh – I cringe so much when I see guys who allow themselves to be friendzoned (‘allow’ being the operative word).
@ judy # 28
“People cannot always handle their emotions because, while being adult, they are not machines”
Hmmm. I guess I’m just not going to win on this one.
“So the woman doesn’t want to sleep with you after three dates? Tough. I think she’s right personally”
So do I. And I actually respect that she had the strength of her convictions to take the chance that I’d disappear rather than give in, cross her fingers, hope that I stick around and then complain about it afterwards.
“because she’s sussed out the situation — or maybe she’s [not?] into emotionless sex”
I would guess it’s the latter — I don’t get sussed out that early, mwah ha ha.
“in the meantime, I’m still holding out for the man who makes love with his heart”
I think you’re absolutely correct to do this — I wish will you well on it.
“maybe I should go out with a new attitude. Date men, not give a hoot about their feelings, sleep with them without a thought, and then move on.”
You’d be surprised at how many women actually do have this attitude – I’ve met many. I don’t even have a problem with them, as imo they’re not doing anything wrong – unless they lie or cheat of course.
(Caveat: I tend to date driven women in their late 20s who know what they want and then go out and get it — female ‘players’ I suppose. Women in other demographic groups might have different values thus might be a bit more scrupulous).
“It’s a tough old world when a woman thinks like that. But my God do some men deserve it.”
Well I suppose I deserve it. And indeed I have received my due comeuppance — and I accept it. I bear these women no ill-will.
My posts are probably coming off as a bit cold, impersonal and harsh, or as a platform to excuse my own behavior. This is not my intent. (I’m usually pretty good at identifying sensitive women in real life, and stay well clear).
My general point is that there seems to be a common sentiment on this thread that it’s the fault of (emotionally unavailable) men for stringing women along. Even if it is their fault, blaming is simply a poor dating strategy. It just leads to bitterness, negative views of the opposite gender and a greater likelihood of repeated poor decision-making.
A better strategy is for individuals to take full control of their own circumstances, therefore it is up to women to identify EU men, cut them off and refuse to allow themselves be strung along – no matter how shiny the package that those men come wrapped up in is.
Ps. Sorry for the length of my not so quick reply.
I agree with previous commenters that the term “Emotionally Unavailable” has been used for “Not interested in a serious relationship” (in general or with a specific person), while to me it refers to something different, maybe along the lines of being Unable to Connect Emotionally and/or Unable of Being There Emotionally.
See, someone could be “Not interested in a serious relationship” and yet be Available Emotionally (being in touch with their emotions, being sensitive to someone else’s emotions, and in general being able to fall in love if they wanted), whereas another person could be looking for a serious relationship, and even fall in love with someone while being Unavailable Emotionally. I’m pretty sure that numerous married women could attest of that fact.
I actually briefly dated someone just like that: he was definitely into me and planning to (re)marry, yet he was Unavailable Emotionally. He was so self-absorbed that he was unable to put himself in the shoes of someone else, he was unable to be there emotionally for anyone, and yet he wanted to remarry and actually ended up pursuing me for 4 more years after we stopped seeing each other (up until he heard I was engaged). Sure enough, he was dealing with psychological issues at the time of our brief dating (death of his father, unfulfilled ambitions, and quite a bit of narcissism), which makes me correlate Emotional Unavailability with such issues that prevent openess (and connexion) to one’s own and others’ vulnerabilities. Ultimately, being able to truly love someone, and letting someone truly love us is about opening up to our darker side and weaknesses AND allowing the other to decide for themselves if they can accept them – and love us despite (or shall I say thanks to?) them.
Tom10, thank you for opening up about what makes you “Not ready for a serious relationship” and possibly quite “Unavailable Emotionally” as well. It makes sense to me that you would not be there yet given your past experiences.
Also, you wrote: “What constantly surprises me though is how many educated grown-ups refuse to take this responsibility and blame everyone else’s behavior instead examining their own. I honestly don’t know how these people live ordinary functional adult lives. How do they manage jobs and obtain mortgages if they can’t even manage their own emotions?”
I understand your surprise, now that I’m on the other side and that I am very aware of my feelings and got control of my emotions. But it was a long road to get there and I indeed got an advanced degree and bought a condo before getting there : ) I was very functional intellectually and extremely responsible with educational/business matters, and yet clueless about my own inner world and irresponsible with my personal relationships. We learn from role-models and if that fails (it did for me!), we learn from inflecting/receiving pain. Pain did the trick for me.
To female commenters who are frustrated at men who take women for a ride, I’d say that better than hoping that every man on the planet over the age of 16 becomes self-aware, perceptive and self-controled, it would be more effective to educate ourselves (and our friends, sisters, and daughters) about how dating works, and focus on using dating for what it should be beside all the fun: a detective game and an opportunity to grow in self-control. Few men are actively trying to screw women over, but most are simply driven by their selfish instincts, just like everyone else who has not yet reached a certain level of self- and other- awareness and self-control.
Karmic equation 28.1 Please read my post again. Yes, certainly some “women” can have sex with “men” without being twisted up inside. Have a look at some of the comments on here. Do the men and men sound HAPPY????? Instead of Cary Grant, please substitute Stromae. Know him???
Tom29 – thank you for your long reply. Yes of course I’m aware that there are women who are just in it for the sex, and unlike you, I’m not convinced that this is restricted only to certain demographic groups. Intriguing that you use the word “scrupulous”. I’d love you to clarify your thoughts on this?I don’t believe that it is “sensitive” to wish to have sex with love. According to me, it’s reasonable feminine behaviour, and probably masculine as well.
This blog is to educate women. In doing so, it educates men too as it happens. Women and men are human beings, with feelings. It’s not so much about emotional intelligence or maturity but more about L O V E.
I know some of you out there are going to cackle and fall about laughing on this one. But as the word “LOVE” is mentioned, some might hear it, and others won’t.
Personally, when I meet a man who reveals in his words (rather quickly I’d say) that he’s just in it for the sex, and is emotionally unavailable, he doesn’t get the sex. On the contrary, experience has shown me that when I say “no” really clearly, they then turn round and say “if I was a woman, I’d say no too”. You see? Some men do have the emotional maturity. Regardless of demographic groups.
Karmic Equation 28.1 – spoken with a Stromae accent – I’m aware that some men and women are not into commitment. I had the impression that on this blog, however, they were trying to find the right one for them. And that’s normal behaviour too.
Tom10 29 – I wish you well and thank you for your lengthy reply. However, one clarification. Players are not limited to certain demographic groups. Seeking a loving companion is not “sensitive”. It’s called knowing what you want and choosing it. And not choosing to please those who couldn’t give a damn about your feelings.
I will be teaching a small boy in my family to respect himself and his body and to avoid women (under or over 20) who have no respect for themselves. Maybe I’ll be wrong – but at least, when he DOES sleep with someone and have sex, I will have done my best to make sure that he gets love as well. And so does the woman.
KarmicEquation28.1 (spoken with a Stromae accent). I’m not calling men anything at all. Please reread my post. And do enjoy the gymnasium. As mentioned, I will find the man who respects himself and me and has sex with love.
Tom10 29- thank you for your lengthy reply. This blog can educate men, as well as it does women. It is not “sensitive” behaviour to discard players which, by the way, can belong to any demographic sector. I, for one, have shown men the door when they reveal oh so quickly (sorry!) that they are just in it for the sex. So there is no need to complain. However, interestingly enough, when I say “no” to their “needs”, they often say to me that if they were the woman, they’d say “no” to it too. Interesting, isn’t it?
Please clarify what you mean by “scrupulous”. This is most intriguing and I’d like to hear your point of view on this.
Notwithstanding my earlier reply to Karl R, I do believe it is the responsibility of women who *want* relationships, to get good at sussing out the signs of whether a man is/is not available for a relationship, and is/is not interested in having one with her, and there are many.
The biggest of these signs, I believe, is that he cares intently what she thinks and feels – men not interested in a relationship have a certain “whatever” attitude that you get good at spotting over time 😉
Much as I dislike the behaviour of men who plunge ahead with a woman knowning that he will not get hurt and she will, it also makes me cringe inside to see women holding out hope when the signs are pretty clear to me that he’s not available and has no intention of making himself so.
They’re not even always the obvious signs, such as when he says “I’m not looking for a relationship.” Other tell-tale signs that I have found are:
* He gets that faraway look in his eyes when he and the woman are together – either that he’s “enduring” it, or checking out other women.
* He’s not usually free on Saturday nights. Sunday nights and even Friday nights are often fine, but an unavailable man usually keeps his Saturday nights to himself.
* Takes an unreasonably long time to answer messages.
* He is self-satisfied. A guy with perfect hair and who talks about his big-shot clients and/or has photos of himself posing with a yacht is a warning flag to me!
* He becomes noticably distant as soon as you reveal that you care or have feelings.
* But I think the biggest giveaway is that most things are on his terms – his timeslots, his house, his preferred venues and activities, his friends, his preference of when he wants to make himself available – This to me marks a relationship of convenience on his side! You are always wondering when and if you are going to see him, and there’s a part of you which is not surprised when the other shoe eventually drops.
Guys who I knew wanted a relationship with me kept in contact every day, and wanted to see me as often as possible. In short, I felt secure. They were also fully open to my likes, preferences and feelings. Effort, nothing else, is the mark of an emotionally available man (in my opinion)!
Clare @34 – “Notwithstanding my earlier reply to Karl R, I do believe it is the responsibility of women who *want* relationships, to get good at sussing out the signs of whether a man is/is not available for a relationship, and is/is not interested in having one with her, and there are many. ”
Yes, Clare, and a very good checklist, in addition to the standard “disclaimer”.
I’ve had women friends whom I’ve absolutely wanted to lock in a closet and take away their phones, I’ve seen them waste months, even YEARS on non-boyfriends, after they’ve issued the standard disclaimer or display many of the behaviors you mention. Get ignored for days on end, then go running to him when he snaps his fingers, even if that meant breaking other plans.
These women I like to think of as genius savants, they are otherwise brilliant in all other aspects of their lives, but when it comes to men, well their brains seem to fly out the window.
Except for my x-hubbies, I never lasted more than 6 weeks with a guy who either issued the standard disclaimer, or behaved in distant manner. Now, with my 2nd hubby, I stayed way too long after he started treating me poorly, but I won’t make THAT mistake again, ring on my finger or not.
Sparkling Emerald,
God yes! I have seen the most attractive, together, perceptive and intelligent women get strung along and debase themselves for sometimes years (and been one of those women). The self-deception is the hardest thing to watch (and experience). Fighting all sense of reason and logic and coming up with excuses to justify his lack of investment.
My lesson came at a painful cost, but I have learnt it, and I am very grateful! The men who come into my life now are more the smitten, can’t get enough of you type.
” have seen the most attractive, together, perceptive and intelligent women get strung along and debase themselves for sometimes years”
This would happen a lot less if the culture did not beat women up and insinuate there is something “wrong” with them for being single.
Especially in the wake of the plethora of emotionally unavailable men.
Why would a woman not want to be single rather than put up with being put through these kind of punishments with these men? She would– unless she feels like it is even more of a punishment to be subjected again to the utterly disrespectful way the culture treats her when she’s single.
Clare 34 – the men you describe in this post sound more selfish and self-centered than emotionally unavailable, well at least to me. But on the subject of weekends, just a thought. On Fridays and Saturdays, I am sometimes busy with…………..friends, family and hobbies, not necessarily men!
judy,
Re: Fridays & Saturdays – sure, me too! Missing the occasional Friday, Saturday or weekend is not necessarily a red flag. But with EU men, it is a pattern, and contact over weekends also tends to be a bit more scarce. You find yourself seeing them during the week more than anything else. Men who want a relationship with you will at least discuss their weekend plans with you, and reserve a chunk of it to spend with you.
Fusee # 30
Thanks for explaining how a competent adult can function well intellectually and financially, yet simultaneously struggle emotionally and in their interpersonal relationships.
“To female commenters who are frustrated at men who take women for a ride, I’d say that better than hoping that every man on the planet over the age of 16 becomes self-aware, perceptive and self-controled, it would be more effective to educate ourselves (and our friends, sisters, and daughters) about how dating works, and focus on using daing for what it should be beside all the fun: a detective game and an opportunity to grow in self-control.”
Amen.
Ps. It looks like we both learned how to play the dating game the same way — the hard way : )
@ judy
Thanks for your replies.
#31
“I don’t believe that it is “sensitive” to wish to have sex with love”
When I mentioned “sensitive” women I was referring to how different women react emotionally when men disappear after sex. For some women it isn’t a big deal, for others it can be traumatic.
I don’t know how else to describe the women in the latter category other than “sensitive”.
“This blog is to educate women. In doing so, it educates men too as it happens”
True. But that is not its objective, thus a moot point. One of Evan’s core teachings is that women can’t change men, thus it is more effective for women to operate as if men will not educate themselves on dating matters.
# 31
“experience has shown me that when I say “no” really clearly, they turn round and say “if I was a woman, I’d say no too” You see? Some men do have the emotional maturity. Regardless of demographic groups”
Maybe they have the emotional maturity. Or maybe they are playing the “understanding card” to convince you that they are mature, thus turn you around and get you into bed.
Did these men keep seeing you after you said “no” really clearly, or did they disappear? Actions speak louder than words.
#32
“I will be teaching a small boy in my family to respect himself and his body and to avoid women (under or over 20) who have for themselves…when he DOES sleep with someone and have sex, I will have done my best to make sure that he gets love as well. And so does the woman”
It’ll be interesting to see if this works. I was raised in a similar environment with equally well-intentioned women – but testosterone, education and the ability to think for oneself are powerful forces. So all their messages were in vain — a man is still going to do what he wants regardless of what he is taught.
#33
“Please clarify what you mean by “scrupulous”. This is most intriguing and I’d like to hear your point of view on this”
Well I’m often struck by the disconnect shown between the attitudes of women on this blog versus the attitudes of the women I meet in person. The women I meet can often be ruthless in the way they treat men and pursue their objectives. I don’t really mind though because I can handle it. But they certainly don’t go out of their way to avoid hurting men in the way that many women here seem to do. I assumed it must be a generational issue. Maybe it’s not — it might be geographic, or cultural, or…maybe it’s just the women I happen to meet!
Perhaps scrupulous wasn’t quite the right word — maybe “meticulous in their efforts to avoid hurting men” would have been more appropriate 🙂
@ Clare #34
“I do believe it is the responsibility of women who *want* relationships, to get good at sussing out the signs of whether a man is/is not available for a relationship, and is/is not interested in having one with her”.
Yes! I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Tom36 – on your point 32, yes, I hope to be successful with the little boy but of course do understand personal wishes. Also, yes, when I said “no” to the men concerned sexually, they realised that I was honest about it. However, I’m happy to report that they all respected me and most of them, I’m still in contact with.
Which goes to say that if all you want is sex, a woman (and man!)can choose who is asking for relief, or gymnastics, and who is into a relationship.
Maybe some of the women you are meeting are just thinking the same as you. Or not as the case may be.
Yes EMK may indeed be teaching that women cannot change men. But somewhere, the seeds are being planted and maybe, just maybe, some men may be thinking, hm, maybe we are wrong sometimes. I’m a great believer in treating people with respect, and it should not just go one way.
Thank you for a respectful answer anyway.
The original article was excellent and very relevant to me.
I’ve been divorced for 3 years, have been on hundreds of dates, and have found myself to be emotionally unavailable to 99% of the women I’ve gone out with.
Sometimes I have told a woman on a first date that I’m only interested in casual dating. Sometimes I waited until the third or fourth date. What I quickly realized is that I felt as though I wasn’t being honest and was possibly manipulating women if I had sex with them without making it clear before we jumped into bed that I wasn’t seeking a serious relationship. Some women opted out at that point but the majority were quite willing to proceed.
I have the same problem as the author. No matter what I say, some women become attached after casually dating for a while regardless of the fact that my internet profile makes it clear that I’m not seeking a serious relationship, that I state that I’m only interested in friendly casual dating, and that I don’t hide the fact that I’m dating others.
Yes, I realize that we can’t prevent “falling” for someone. It has happened to me too on several occasions. The dilemma is I can either avoid hurting someone’s feelings by not dating anyone or I can just continue to be as open and honest as possible, knowing that I will ultimately hurt someone. The choice is clear to me but I’d love some feedback on what emotionally unavailable men and women should say/do to lessen the risk of heartache.
@ Still-Looking
Since you asked for feedback…a few things come to mind that distinguish casual dating to me:
1. Don’t see the same woman more than once a week; 2-3 times a month.
Reason: The more time people spend together, very often one will get attached.
2. Don’t do boyfriend-y, couple-y things like spending whole weekends together, including her when you go out with friends, introducing her to your parents, siblings, children. Don’t take her as a date to a wedding or other “special” occasion that one usually brings a girlfriend.
Reason: Despite any casual disclosure upfront, if you treat a woman you’re casually dating as you would a girlfriend she may likely start thinking she IS your girlfriend.
3. Don’t keep in touch every day electronically. And absolutely no “future talk”.
Reason: That’s what boyfriends do.
4. Break it off after a month or two. Sooner if you sense her feelings have become stronger than yours.
Reason: The longer a casual situation continues the more ambiguous it may seem. A fling is by nature brief.
Which is not to say you can’t treat a woman you are dating casually well and with kindness and enjoy fun dates. It only means that if you really don’t want to hurt someone they need to perceive some measure of distance on your part.
Still-Looking @38 – If your profile honestly states your casual intentions and/or you state them upfront to women you meet, or at least prior to bedding them, then it is on them if they expect more and get hurt.
Even better if your actions match your words, and you don’t verbally tell them “casual” while your actions scream “serious boyfriend” Some women believe that “actions speak louder than words” and in most cases that is true, but not in the case of the person who verbalizes “casual” and who’s actions indicate “serious”. I think this is why so many women get so tripped up in this area and think “Oh, he really doesn’t mean that, he’s just afraid, intimidated, blah, blah, blah”
Still Looking – I know I’ve already responded to this, but I’ve read some additional replies and re-read your post, and now there is another question in my mind. You describe yourself as “emotionally unavailable” and you say you realize that you can’t prevent “falling” for someone because it has happened to you on several occasions. It sounds to me like you really aren’t “emotionally unavailable” but that you just haven’t found your match. Would you like to be in a relationship, but just can’t seem to make the right connection ? Or does the idea of being in a relationship scare you, but sometimes someone surprises you, and you find your self wanting to be in a relationship (and then she rejects you). As I re-read your post, I am sensing a lot of ambiguity. I’d like to gently suggest that if you examine your heart and find that you REALLY would ENJOY being in a relationship, set that as a clearer goal, and perhaps you will get there with fewer hurts along the way. If you label yourself as “emotionally unavailable” when in fact at the moment your emotional needs are merely being unfilled, you might be tripping yourself up, with your ambiguous thinking. Do you really NOT want a relationship, or is this a case of sour grapes ?
I agree with being straight up and specific. That way you know you are both on the same page. sometimes that changes, sometimes not but the fact is you were honest right from the beginning and throughout.Both men and women should be mature enough to handle that and be responsible for it. The problem is when the games begin. Hinting around IS games and vague. If you don’t feel comfortable enough in your own skin to be honest with yourself and have respect for others to be honest with them about intentions, then no you shouldn’t be with them no matter if that is only sex or more than that.
I’ve watched players do this to women and then fall in love and can’t understand how any man could have ever done that to her which left her emotionally damaged. The answer seem pretty simple there.There was a man I knew that said he couldn’t understand how his sister ended up with these guys that strung her along, yet at the same time he would do that himself without any regard and somehow he justified that as different. Then are the women that think she will get a man to fall for her by being aloof and playing it cool, and then get’s her heart broken because she actually truly desired love.
As for the being the good guy. come on. no matter how “well” you treat these women you are not validating their emotions,and are doing it for your own ego and that’s disrespecting women. what a turn off, there’s a value bracket. No truly good man would ever intentionally string along a woman where the feelings were not reciprocated.
I’ve dated two men, at different times in my life, that outright lied and say that it is not casual to them, I trusted in that, but their actions were otherwise.treated me well, ignored me for days, mocked my emotions etc. I broke it off with them clearly. delete block. both of them called my family, bothered my friends, “how is she doing?”, “I really need to talk to her”, “what’s her new number?” etc etc. brutal. Both of these men obviously had me in a low value bracket, and bye bye I said. But to come after my family and friends to get to me just showed how little respect they had for not only me but the people I truly love and care for. So, sometimes the woman get’s it, leaves, and the guy goes off the cliff.
be honest with yourself about what you want, don’t waste other’s time or your own.and settle for nothing less than your true hearts desire.
@ Stilllooking 38
How about concentrate on the 1% who do not leave you indifferent? Or have sex with someone only if you really like them and see them as relationship material? This is what women have been doing for ages 🙂
Selena @ 38.1 and SE @38.2 – thanks for the great advice. I do try to keep my distance by keeping my actions consistent with my words but it does get difficult. If I purposefully keep my distance by turning down an invitation to the Christmas party then I feel I have hurt her feelings and she will feel rejected. If I accept the invitation then I’m treading dangerously close to BF/GF activities. Some women understand the boundaries and some don’t. Those who don’t usually push me away by trying to pull me too close in which case is a lose lose situation for both of us.
[email protected] 40 – Kiki if I could find that 1% and the feeling was mutual then life would be wonderful!! The problem with the no sex suggestion (besides the fact that there would be no sex!) is that most women are quite happy to have sex. With some women, after a few weeks of great casual dating they want more than I’m willing/able to give. I don’t think that a life of never dating for fear of hurting feelings is a viable option.
Still-Looking,
My suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but I do in fact have your topic close to heart. My husband has a very close friend, who has been in this strange situation with women for as long as I have known them. This guy, lets call him Bob (42 y.o), is very good looking, but quite shy – most probably because he got bald in his early 20s and this still bothers him. He is also what we call beta at this blog. He is a college drop-out, had a major problem with alchohol (but has been clean 5+ years now), makes a rather low income working as a plumber, but is otherwise very sweet, kind, good humored, well meaning and pleasant company, and, lets not forget it, is in great physical shape. He has women hitting on him all the time, and because “he can’t say no :-)” he gets himself in all kinds of ridiculous situations. For the last 2 years he was dating 4 women simultaneously – one married (age 42, broken marriage that she is unable to leave), one 29, with a live-in boyfriend and a child, one at 24 single who is rather plump, and one divorced who is reasonably good looking and smart, but 5 years older and lives in a far away city. All the women suspected that they are not the only one, but he did not volunteer information, and neither of them dared to ask. Eventually, #2 got pregnant, they discussed it and decided to have a go at being a family, but it has been very rocky between them. The baby is 4-5 months old now, and a few weeks ago she moved out. He is heartbroken, he wants his child, but he never was particularly in love with the mother, and they are having a terrible time together. Because of Bob’s friendship with my husband, I have been a witness to all this, and have met some of the women. I particulaly liked the one in the far away city, but the long distance killed the passion there. So, I do understand that when a man gets offered [what he considers to be] no strings attached sex, he has a very hard time to refuse. But I have also seen how this screws up people’s lifes, so my friendly suggestion to you is – stay away from bad karma.
Did all four women go up to Bob and say come home with me? Or did Bob have dates with these women and the eventually had sex with them…and continued to have sex with the married, live-in bf women, even though they had S.Os of their own? Not very smart.
As much as I like men and often see their side more than most, I believe in personal responsibility. Your friend Bob didn’t exhibit much of that. He made his own bed. And on top of that he had UN-PROTECTED sex? Your Bob is not a responsible man and the women he was with were not responsible women. They each earned their own bad karma.
(Generic) You make good choices, good things tend to happen. You make bad choices bad things tend to happen. That has nothing to do with being emotionally availability or not. And even less to do with casual sex or not.
He behaved stupidly. Rarely do good things result from stupid choices. No sympathy from me for Bob. But too bad about the baby. Sounds like s/he won’t see much of Bob whilst growing up. The child didn’t deserve that.
Karmic,
Everything you say is correct. It beats me how he does it with the women. They have acted stupid and he has been acting stupid. Mind you, I see way more of this in real life than any one on this blog would admit. Here, if you read the posts, we are all, each of us, not only smart, but also saints, and only other people do stupid thinsgs, or bad things :-).
I still think that irresponsible behavior in one party breeds irresponsible behavior in the other. That’s why I think there is value in the idea of a man exercising self-discipline and not getting himself in borderline situations with casual sex when he has a clear idea of his own emotional unavailability, or whatever he calls his desire for no-strings sex. This is my response to the question Still Looking posed. It surprised me that Selena and Sparkling have been giving him advice as to how to give the message to the woman without actually telling her where things stand, I guess they are broader-minded than me :-).
Kiki, re-read Still-Looking’s posts. He says he DOES tell the women he dates he’s only looking for casual. They end up disappointed anyway.
Either the women are ignoring what he tells them, or they are getting attatched in spite of what he tells them. Hence my advice to keep it brief.
Kiki – You said “It surprised me that Selena and Sparkling have been giving him advice as to how to give the message to the woman without actually telling her where things stand, I guess they are broader-minded than me :-).”
————————————–
I said he should tell women up front that he wants NSA, and better yet his words and actions should match. If he does that, he IS telling her where she stands. I also think women should leave when a man says that UNLESS they also want NSA. And I DON’T mean they should ACT like they are cool with NSA if they aren’t, I mean they shouldn’t stick around if they aren’t cool with it. I have had so many girlfriends play the “cool girl” when they weren’t cool with it at all and then end up heartbroken. I wanted to lock them in a closet when, after we would have a heart to heart and they would say they were looking for love and marriage, and a week later they meet some guy who tells him he only wants NSA sex, and they suddenly flip what they want to what HE wants. Sacrificing what THEY want to give him what HE wants (in the vain hope that he will suddenly out of the blue fall in love with them)
I can’t say that I have NEVER done shit like that, but I never last more than 3 weeks after the announcement that he “wasn’t looking for anything serious” came. I’ve had girlfriends languish for YEARS in non-relationships.
@ Still- Looking
With some women, after a few weeks of great casual dating they want more than I’m willing/able to give.
You’ve just illustrated why casual dating tends to be brief. The longer it goes on (with a specific person) the more likely the chance of ambiguity and attachment developing. I’ve heard of long-term casual relationships, but they appear to be uncommon.
I disagree that it’s Still Looking’s responsibility to keep it brief if he’s happy with the way things go. It’s up to the woman (if SHE is unhappy) to change. Whether that’s to accept the casual or to walk away. HIM walking away “to keep it brief” to protect her sensibilities is hogwash. If a woman doesn’t have the will power or the awareness to walk away from an unhappy situation, she shouldn’t be dating. Period. Don’t make it the man’s job to protect her from herself.
Karmic Equation: “I disagree that it’s Still Looking’s responsibility to keep it brief if he’s happy with the way things go.”
Still-Looking # 38: The dilemma is I can either avoid hurting someone’s feelings by not dating anyone or I can just continue to be as open and honest as possible, knowing that I will ultimately hurt someone. The choice is clear to me but I’d love some feedback on what emotionally unavailable men and women should say/do to lessen the risk of heartache.
Still-Looking is apparently unhappy with the way things go, hence my advice to him to keep it brief.
I could see how you could interpret that as Still Looking being “unhappy”. He doesn’t sound unhappy but rather admits to being confused. If he really wants to stop causing heartache, then he should only date his future wife. But how does he find her if he doesn’t date? Some women attach after first time sex…and some women attach simply through having lots of conversations with the same man. A man can’t save a woman from herself. Only she can. You’re sending him on a fool’s errand.
I’ll agree with you that the longer one dates the same person without a label, the ambiguity grows. I’m in that exact situation with my personal trainer. Ambiguity, while uncomfortable, is what leads to progression. And whoever is more uncomfortable with that ambiguity is the one who starts that progression. I’m counting on my trainer feeling just as uncomfortable with the ambiguity as I am. He’s not an idiot. He knows what he has to do to stop the ambiguity: either ask me for exclusivity or end the relationship. And while I don’t like the ambiguity, I also don’t want to stop seeing him. So this non-committed relationship continues until one of us can’t stand the ambiguity anymore. If I’m wrong and he’s comfortable with the ambiguity (or not even feeling the slightest bit ambiguous), then it’s all on me to decide what to do next.
While all this ambiguity is happening, I’m dating other men. I’m sure he’s dating other women. For my part, however, I’ll say that dating other men feels like cheating. Which is totally incongruent with the actual relationship, which is non-committed. So I detest feeling like I’m cheating. However, he’s not making me feel this way, I’m feelin this way all by myself. And I can choose to how to deal with that feeling. Since I don’t yet want to stop seeing him, I must accept the ambiguity, for now. I can always change my mind later. Why does HE have to do anything about MY feelings of ambiguity or cheating? He doesn’t. It’s all on me.
Karmic,
thanks for the update, I did actually ask you for one on one of the other posts.
I see your way of thinking is very similar to mine (except for on the importance of looks, I have not forgotten :-). So I am sure you will appreciate my story.
Many years ago I met a guy at work, and I fell in love with him. We became friends, but he was also very friendly with the other women, and there was one who surely had a huge crush on him (but she was married). We spent a lot of time together at work, and we went out socially, sometimes with other people, sometimes just the two of us. He was always the perfect gentleman, paid for my meals, movie tickets etc, but never made a move. In a few months, I was madly in love with him, but did not dare to speak up for fear of scaring him off. Time goes by so slowly for those who wait (Madonna :-). I lost hope. I met another guy at a friend’s wedding, who was eager to make me his girlfriend, and even though I was not too keen on him, we quckly hooked up, and he started to call me at work and to show up to pick me at work after hours. The other guy never said a word, but I could see he was getting upset. Then, one day, when we went out with him for a drink after work, I told him I can no longer hang out with him, as my new boyfriend gets jealous (the new boyfriend had no clue :-). I could see from his reaction he was upset, but did not say a word. I asked him how he felt about that and he avoided the question. Then, I had a “now or never” moment, and I told him “Look, I like spending time with you so much. I think you do too. I thought we might become boyfriend and girlfriend, but I see you have no desire to progress things.” He said, “I like you very much, but I thought you were not interested in me romantically”. I said “May be we should give it a go between us. Do you want me to break up with the boyfriend?”. He said yes.
This is the story of how I met my husband.
I also wanted to address this thing which you said that dating other men while you are in the ambiguity phase feels like cheating. This is very interesting. If you are not having sex with either of your dates, I think you are pretty safe that you are not cheating any one, right? At the same time, you do not view sex as sacred and reserved for your exclusive relationship so you could as well be having sex with either of your dates, and that should not be cheating.
Now notice the difference between a woman who might have NSA sex and is worried that she might be cheating on the man who is her primary interest, and the concerns of a man who is having NSA sex, that the women will get attached in spite of his clear message that this is only casual!!!
The double standard that women are monogamous and men are not is so ingrained in our minds, that even you, my dear friend, are not immume!
Karmic, I also need to let you know, that if someone elses snatches you before the trainer, while he is dragging his highly athletic feet, his heart will be broken :-). Have mercy.
“If you are not having sex with either of your dates, I think you are pretty safe that you are not cheating any one, right?”
Absolutely. Truth be told I’m having sex with both guys, not simultaneously, of course, but I’m sure they would up for that if offered. lmao. All kidding aside. I’ve spent a lot of non-sex, non-training time with my trainer, which is what bonds me to him. I’ve had dates followed by makeouts or sex with guy 2, which is why I haven’t bonded to him, very little non-sex time. Guy 2 is much more age appropriate for me, more easy-going, and easily makes a lie of my inability to orgasm during intercourse. So wouldn’t you think that I would bond to Guy 2 more? Strangely I don’t. So that puts a lie to the “sex/orgasms bonds you to the man”. At least for me, it doesn’t work like that.
“The double standard that women are monogamous and men are not is so ingrained in our minds, that even you, my dear friend, are not immume!”
I don’t deny that I’ve been brainwashed along with all other women here into believing that monogamy is natural rather than culturally-driven. I’m just the only one who wants to fight the brainwashing. Instead of trying to make my reality fit my feelings (e.g., get him to become my bf, so that my feelings are justified), I’m working on making my feelings fit the reality (I’m in an uncommitted relationship, so I need to “get over” that feeling of cheating). As you can see the former requires HIM to do something, the latter requires ME to do something. Guess which method I believe is more empowering?
And thank you, Kiki. Yeah. If he drags his feet too long he’s going to force me to break his heart 😉
@Karmic. I’m so sorry you’re in that situation. I spent the last year dealing with ambiguity from someone I cared deeply about. We’d been friends for many years before dating. The lack of definition made it awkward. I didn’t know what to do if someone else asked me out. I never did date others because it did feel like I would be cheating. It almost felt instinctual, like I would be betraying him. It was frustrating, because we seemed close and behaved like a couple, but weren’t one. I was the first to break and ask for commitment. I didn’t receive one and heard some things that really hurt. That was a month ago. Three days ago I was in an pretty bad accident. I didn’t even get a phone call. I entered this situation a pretty confident person. I have absolutely no insight for you, but hope you receive a happy resolution. Everyone deserves clarity.
A general comment about all the semantic haggling over what “emotionally unavailable” means.
This is a coined phrase that has a general meaning, but everyone understands it a tad bit differently. To some, it just means any man who’s EU for YOU. To some, it means a man who is generally EU to anyone. To some, it may mean a person who is Emotionally Damaged, and while they may seek out a relationship, never really fully give their heart to it. Look up any word about something TANGIBLE in a dictionary and you will find it has several definitions. So a coined phrase about something as intangible as emotions and relationship is NOT going to have an exact, precise definition either.
So while some people are assigning sinister motives to women joining in a discussion about EU and using the term EU, has anyone noticed that the headline of this BLOG (and not just this article) reads . . . .”
Learn How Chemistry Has Always Led You Into the Wrong Relationships…
… And The Reason You Find Yourself Stuck in Unhealthy Relationships with Emotionally Unavailable Men.”
Oh, if I wanted to be a semantical nit picker to the umpteenth degree, not only could I bash this headline for the use of the term “Emotionally Unavailable Men”, I could really go to town on the concept of “Finding yourself stuck” and argue that no one “finds themselves stuck” in any relationship, but they CHOSE to be in a relationship, and blah, blah, blah.
Remember, we are discussing a rather intangible concept within the limitations of language. Not everyone is going to express such concepts using the EXACT same words as someone else. Nit picking over the semantics of such discussion is rather pointless IMHO.
Perhaps we should just say “emotionally unsatisfying relationships”. That accurately describes most relationships that end, or never quite get off the ground doesn’t it ? And really doesn’t blame anyone, just describes the situation. But I suppose if someone really wanted to argue semantics, they could find something wrong with that phrasing too.
Reading this made me realize that I am a super emotionally unavailable woman – except when it comes to my ex, who I’m still in love with. That said, I don’t think its necessarily fair to decide that he absolutely positively never EVER wants to be with you, or never will. That isn’t true. Like the original author said, every guy he’s known has gone through a period of unavailability. I think that’s pretty true for most modern women too. Since my ex and I broke up, I’ve turned down a ridiculous amount of probably-awesome dates with probably-awesome guys who were attractive and have their lives together. That doesn’t mean I won’t ever be ready to date and that when I do, I won’t ever hit up one of those guys, I’ve got a running list of the ones I’m planning on hitting up the day I feel alright about things. I know I’m not ready yet, and by staying unavailable I feel I’m also saving some poor guy from getting his heart broken when he finds out I still have feelings for my ex. It’s the most annoying thing to me when a guy laments to me that he knows I’d “never date him.” I’d date plenty of these dudes, I’m sure of it. Just not right now.
I love this article. Seem like I’ve been dating every emotional unavailable men over thirty out there. But why is it, when you tell them; this has been great. So long sucker, they always come back. Wanting to date, have a talk, have a coffee, drink or a friendship, fuck or even a relationship.
There are many women that would willingly allow themselves to be strung along by a man that has no desire to become anything more. Knowing hes emotionally unavailable and sleeping with a woman even if hes told her is having his cake and eating it to. But its HER fault if she sticks around allowing it to happen thinking she can change him. NEWS FLASH: Sex will not get you a commitment. Let him wine and dine without the casual sex and I bet he doesn’t stay very long.
I just stumbled upon this site and find it so interesting!
I just recently broke up with a guy and I wondered if he was “emotionally unavailable” or not and found this site. The truth of the matter is, a few dates in, he told me that if I asked him for a commitment, he could not continue to see me, and that it could work for him if we defined our relationship as “less serious.” I actually thought I could do this b/c we had a lot of fun together, but literally, the next day and in the days following, it was as if any “juice” that was even left, just completely drained right out of the whole thing!
So, when I saw post #16, it really resonated for me:
I think you emotionally unavailable men really want the woman to fall for you . Why? Because the benefits you get (the cake) are much sweeter when she’s emotionally invested. If she took you at your word and uninvested her emotions, you would not enjoy it so much.
It really energetically felt like the chase went dead! After a few days of this, I realized I’m NOT interested in something less serious…I’m actually ready for an emotionally intimate relationship! So I let him know this and he understood.
What I want to say is that I give him lots of credit for telling me what he wanted. And for the record, he didn’t go on to do “boy-friend’y” things. He was treating me like a FWB and I now see that’s how he defined “a less serious relationship.” I was thinking in a less serious relationship, that there could still be emotional sharing (I myself have asked for this kind of relationship with a few men in the past b/c they were not BF candidates, but I can tell you, it never worked out and I’m not sure it ever can) but evidently that was not what he had in mind. So we were open and honest, said what we wanted, tried it, and it just didn’t work out.
I agree with some comments on this post in that we all need to take responsibility for our needs and desires. If someone is open and honest with you about what they want and it doesn’t work for you, then move on. I do believe that many women – and I include my old self in this – think that if they hang on long enough he will come around to see how great she is. Sometimes that undefinable “thing” just isn’t there and never will be! It does take some self-awareness, however, to get some altitude on the relationship and see that it’s just not happening and that it’s time to move on. Sometimes we need the help of authentic friends or a therapist to help us see that.
I do believe that there are men (and women of course) who have had some emotionally damaging experiences in their lives (this latest man of mine was just coming off of a divorce and he was so saddened that he was once in love and that it just all ended), some of which just require time in order to heal. There are some whose early childhood (attachment) experiences were so damaging that they may need the long term help of a therapist to help regain that sense of vulnerability and trust. Then I think there are those who just want to play the field and see what’s out there (I have been there myself after my own divorce). But no matter what the WHY is of a person’s emotional unavailability, if you are involved with that person and it is currently, in the present moment, working for you, then great. If you end up feeling a whole host of negative feelings about the relationship – and one of the big ones is anxiety – then you might consider that it’s just not working out for you and make the decision to move on.
I realize this sounds a bit cold or matter of fact, but I did say it takes some self-awareness to see these things, so if something feels “off” (as it did for me from the beginning) then talk to someone you trust about it for feedback.
I appreciate the honesty and respect that everyone shows each other on this site and look forward to reading/writing more blogs about dating.
Post #16 resonates with me, too. Someone has to have some feelings in any relationship; there has to be some heart, love and affection.
If it were really about plain, mechanical, physical sex only, then men would hire prostitutes.
Hi My bf is definitely an emotionally unavailable person. He is 38 years old. His longest relationship was a year and a half. He can’t and doesn’t say i love you to his family not even his mother. He doesn’t believe in feelings or emotions. He communicates with logics and phrases and statistics. he treats me very good when we’re together but when we are apart he is not that attentive. I could see people who would say they label themselves EU just so the don’t feel bad for not being into you. I probably won’t the one to crack my bfs code and I seriously don’t want to change him. Every one has some issue I myself have self esteem issue which to me now that I truly see him in a different light probably we aren’t good for each other. I just have to figure this out but just want to explain there are true use people out there. Thank you
I had met EU four years ago. Totally into me, chased me for months and I was actually the EU women to him. I didn’t want a serious relationship. Until I realized I had fell for him unintentionally. Turns out it was all a game and the back and forth, confusion was exhausting. He finally broke it off. I admit I was attached for a very long time, heartbroken even. He dated someone else. At one point we reconnected and he told me that he never saw himself marrying said girl. He was never in love with her etc etc. Everything a women doesn’t want to hear. I realized then that he was always going to be EU. It definitely helped me move on from him.
This is so true. I will never make this same mistake again. A man I have known for two years told me he is not in a place in his life to be committed to one woman, he says all of the other woman he dates know that and feel the same. After two months he told me he and some other woman decided they have feelings for one another. He told me two months earlier he had feelings for me? He told me they are getting serious and don’t want to see other people. Now he wants to marry her. I’m so done. If a man is dating others, has a crush on someone else, whatever, I’m out of there, I feel so used.
Interesting article about women however to all ladies: it is all about what we WANT in the relationship and not about what men want. We should never ever settle for less than what we deserve and you know what screw guys who are players.
Why does a relationship have to go “anywhere?” Why is it considered the woman does not value herself if she stays with an EU guy in such a relationship? I have been in an on-again-off-again relationship with what I suppose you would say is an EU guy. LOL, I guess I am his “Thursday” girl or FWB. I am not “needy.” I do not feel “attached” to him. I am not waiting for him to come around or change him and make him into a better man. I sense when he feels he’s getting too attached to me he starts singing the song that we’re not like peanut butter and jelly, that he’s sorry he can’t be the guy for me, that he is a screw up, that I should not not want him, that he is trouble. I’ve heard this for 5 years. I don’t feel like I am wasting my time or devaluing myself. We enjoy each other’s company but his first love is alcohol. He says I deserve much better, someone good looking, intelligent, wealthy, and who has time for me and is looking for companionship because I am such a “great catch.” He says he’s a screw up. He also sometimes says our getting physical with each other is wrong because it will never go anywhere. So I take it from this blog that I am not the right girl for him but am letting him use me. But what man turns down sex? He is not seeing anyone else. At first I thought he just didn’t want the pressure to perform or saw me as drama and responsibility. He said I am a lot of work because I like to talk. When we have sex, he is all about pleasing me. I don’t know who is more mixed up, me or him. I am in my 50’s and he is 10 years younger. I guess most of you would say to move on but I am comfortable with him. I’ve seen 5 other guys during this time – he encouraged me – but I prefer him. I feel I have more with him than any one of those other 5 guys. So I did try moving on. His children and brother and sisters and mother love me like a family member. I sat it is what it is. I guess that’s what happens after you’ve been in a 15 year relationship with a sociopath. It’s amazing I can trust anyone. There is a reason why there are so many women with these type of men (EU) who choose not to move on. In my case I am not a quitter and I guess it doesn’t take much to make me happy. I am responsible for my own happiness, not some future BF looking for an LTR going somewhere. And yes, I do have high standards but no expectations. No expectations = no disappointment. Now is that a cop out too, like labeling men EU?
Wow!! What a insightful article. Thank you!:)
Yes, I agree there is a difference between a man having a light and honest relationship and someone who is EU. I have had several long term relationships and consider myself to be a high-value person. I expect men to be honest with me. Recently I became involved with someone that seemed perfect: smart, funny and we had a great deal in common. On the second date he said he was looking to get married and start and family but later said that he could only see me once a week as a result of work commitments. Something about the way he said this felt odd but I went along with it. His communications were intermittent. We met once a week. He went off the radar for two weeks once we slept together (said he had food poisoning); then came back on the scene. He seemed very sexually attracted to me but implied that I was promiscuous (I’m not). He has a bad relationship with his family – his mother in particular – and has few friends. After three months we had “the talk” he said I was wonderful and that he wanted to go out with me. After this he said the mood had gone and became visibly agitated. He was away with work for a while and then seemed reluctant to sleep with me, blaming allergies, illness, work pressure etc. He would promise to phone then not phone. Then he broke things off as a result of a social media post (spurious reason) but said that he wanted to be friends/platonic. We met as friends during which time he talked a lot about sex, this seemed odd and manipulative. Then he said I was so fucking lovely and that he wanted to start things up again. He said he would call me the following day. He didn’t call. We met again, he said that I was great, that he wanted to meet again as soon as possible. We arranged a date. He didn’t call. I called him and said that his doing this was hurting my feelings. He said this was “sweet”. That he couldn’t commit to anything but would I call him again in a week. I was angry and said so. (He had said he wanted to see me as soon as possible after all). There were lots and lots of mixed messages, and it has caused me a lot of pain. I think it is the cognitive dissonance, the inability to make sense of it all that has been the most difficult thing. He lied about a few things and didn’t involve me in his life. It was all pretty weird. I think he was scared or narcissistic (perhaps both) but all I needed was for him to be honest with me.
I’m sorry, Nicola. You believed a man’s words instead of his actions. He was honest all along with his actions but you didn’t want to believe that.
If ever there is “dissonance” between a man’s actions and his words, you MUST believe his actions. Don’t let pretty words distract from his poor behavior.
Men can easily lie with their mouths. But it’s a lot harder for them to lie with their actions.
Nicola,
I had somewhat of the same experience. I can tell you that this sort of man never lets go, so you need to run!
Karmic Equation is correct. You need to look at a man’s actions, not his words. I didn’t know this. I do now! Sometimes you need these sorts of relationships just for the experience. Just to know that these sorts of conflicted men exist. Great. Now you and me both know. And I don’t need that experience again.
I feel so stupid. The guy I’m dating has said numerous times about being emotionally unavailable, but in a sort of jokey way – because he doesn’t like PDAs and gets embarrassed easily. Yet I took it to mean he was joking about that because when we’re alone he’s affectionate, sweet and has always been so respectful.
Evidently I’m just not a long term prospect, though he always talks about long term plans like what we’ll do next summer (2015) and at Christmas. I should have guessed from the fact we don’t call ourselves girlfriend and boyfriend and I’ve not met his family.
This is a bitchslap of a reality check actually.
Don’t feel stupid. It’s an experience. Now you know, you don’t have to have that experience again.
Yes, my unavailable other also did not introduce me to his family. That’s definitely a giveaway.
Aloha!
Some people want to be in a progressing relationship that is living. When the person your with is silent and is not helping the relationship grow it can be a waste of time. As for me that person can stay emotionally unavailable, I prefer an active living, thriving, progressing relationship with an active, living, thriving, progressing person. Trying to resuscitate a relationship with a person who is so called emotionally unavailable is a waste of precious energy.
I’ve been in a “relationship” with this guy for 4 years. Granted it was a rocky start, but we’ve gone through a lot of life experiences together; the loss of his mother, a foreclosure, and death of at least 3 pets. He’s continually telling me how much he has to do, how things in his life are in disarray and he can’t have the responsibility of a having a girlfriend right now, however, I’m the only women in his life that he’s intimate with or that he shares everything with and we see each other on a regular basis. I’m employed, financially self-sufficient and I have two children I’ve raised by myself for 16 years, so I wouldn’t be a burden to him financially. So there is something bigger going on here that I’m not listening too and its come to a point that its making me emotionally, mentally, and physically ill. When we’re together we have a wonderful time, we talk intimately about life, we spend time together, I’ve met all his friends and family. But, he doesn’t refer to me as his girlfriend; he tells people I’m his friend or his girl. On occasion when it suits him in front of a successful family or business man he’ll introduce me as his girlfriend but, especially with other women I am his friend or close friend. So I need to value myself enough to walk away is what I’m realizing because I’ve invested too much of my time and I don’t believe he appreciates me. He’s 49, never married and doesn’t have children, but the bigger problem is that he was adopted and has attachment issues. I don’t believe he has the capacity to love or value anyone. I truly believe this is an emotionally unavailable man or a sociopath I’m dealing with here, but I need to move on with my life for my own health.
Maria. I think you have already figured out that this is not real. If he is not proud to call you his girlfriend, especially in front of other women, he clearly wants to keep his options open. So do the same. Get out there and meet other men. Don’t be afraid to be honest with these other men. If they ask, say that you are in an unhappy relationship and then just say that there are many issues and then specifically state that he calls you his friend or good friend in front of other women, and you are tired of it. IMHO this tells those other guys that you are not going t be taken for granted. If a guy wants to sleep with you, let him know two things…one you are still in a relationship but not out of it yet and you don’t sleep around. Until that is officially over, you won’t sleep with anyone else. Then let them know that until you are in a committed relationship you won’t sleep with anybody else. I would say something like, “I love sex, but I need to feel loved before I can make love. A good man worth having in my life will appreciate that I don’t just sleep with anybody I meet.”
But you know the truth. If after 4 years, this man doesn’t know he loves you, he never will. Oh, he might have strong feelings…like you as a friend…love you for sex, but he doesn’t love you and you know it.
You have the option of just dumping him cold, or keeping him around to keep you from being lonely until you find another man. In many cases I would say just to drop him first, but he has clearly felt comfortable using you, and it is pretty low to treat a woman like that…4 years later and can’t even call you a girlfriend in front of other women.
In the meantime, if you do stay with him while you search, when he pulls that with other women, smile real big, offer your hand to these other women, and say, “Hi, I’m Maria, his girlfriend of 4 years.” Don’t act snooty, or uppity, or angry, or aggressive, just act sweet and docile, and then ask him what he wants to do now. Again, not in a sarcastic way. Be genuine. Like, “What do you want to do now? Are you hungry, or do you want to dance?” Etc…
If you act snooty to the other women, or act like you own him, or act controlling of him, it may trigger the other women to try to get him just to show you. The other way will make them realize he has a good woman and if that is how he treats a good woman, they will want no part of him. Just act sweet and loving.
In fact, don’t be afraid to make friends with these ladies. They are not the enemy. Be friendly, and compliment them in a genuine manner, maybe on their dress, or something you like about their clothes, hair, make-up, etc… I am sure you know how to avoid making a compliment sound like a possible insult, like hair color, etc…
I have no doubt that he will not be happy when you do that. But it will be amusing even more as a result.
I have a question. I too have been in this situation for far too long and clearly I wouldn’t have stumbled upon this blog if I hadn’t been looking for answers. What I want to know, and what no blog, article or book has addressed is HOW does one differentiate between Mr. Unavailable and Mr. Cautiously Getting to Know You. I myself am not the earth-moves-on-the-first-date type so how can I possibly expect these men to be? Is the only difference the effort that I put into it? If I’m hanging back and letting him do ALL the work, how does he know that I’m interested or if I’M the unavailable one (because there are certainly women who suffer from this affliction, I have several in my own life). What’s dating and what’s not is not definable anymore like it was even 10 years ago (I am in my mid 30s and remember dating life pre-cell phone/technology dependence). Is he unavailable after 3 dates and no title? Personally, I don’t even want a title after 3 dates and I don’t want someone I don’t know yet pursuing me relentlessly for one. I like to get to know someone before I decide if I want to be exclusive with them. Maybe it’s partially my age or experiences or the fact that I’m looking for a connection on a deeper level rather than the 7th grade: ‘I like you, you like me, now we’re going out’ or a combination of all of the above. I also do NOT want children. I woudn’t want to waste the time of someone who does and it doesn’t always come up in the first date or so. My point is: how do you know the difference between a man who is taking his time in getting to know me but not making me the center of his world while doing so (I don’t WANT that) and one who is simply unavailable? The ‘symptoms’ aren’t always cut and dry. Is the only difference the manner in which I behave? Because I’m not one to throw myself at any man but I’m also not the ‘let him do ALL the work type’. I reach out to say hello or suggest an activity (I don’t expect him to be a mind reader. If I want to go to the beach and I want him to join me, I will ask. I don’t crumble if he says no or bails. I find someone else). Is the whole idea here just knowing when to cut your losses (input versus output)? I’ve read dozens of articles and books and blogs on the subject and they all just say the same thing and come up short in regards to an answer to this. They all seem to say that a man who is interested will fall all over you and I’m far too practical for that. I don’t want someone falling all over me, it isn’t genuine if they don’t KNOW me. Compatibility comes first.
Is a person emotionally unavailable or do you both have a different definition of emotionally available? For instance, one person may feel like their is no emotional connection unless there are times where you sit around and talk, giving each other undivided attention. For others, this may not be an essential component. For them, it may only require sharing affectionate physical contact, maybe while watching TV.
Hi Evan,
Thanks for writing. “This is why I tell you repeatedly to act like the CEO and treat men like interns. If he’s not showing up and you’re putting up with it, it’s not his fault. It’s yours, for not firing him! You can’t expect him to value you like a girlfriend if you don’t insist on being treated like a proper girlfriend.”
This is a gem. But how, can you be specific? Frankly, I would prefer to treat someone with dignity and respect, unlike a CEO to interns. I imagine lots of delegation. But that’s not what a healthy relationship is about. How can one insist on being treated like a proper girlfriend in a positive, attractive way?
This article makes me feel rather sad. So men play games then?
‘we’re going to be thoughtful, we’re going to be charming and we’re going to make your friends laugh when you introduce us to them. We’re going to check on you when you’re sick, send you good morning emails and good night text messages. When we go out together, we’re going to do everything we’re supposed to do to make sure you have a good time and if you let us, we’re going to do everything in our power to please you sexually. Why? Because a good guy takes pride in making sure a woman in his company has enjoyed her time with him.”’
All of the above to me sounds like ‘acting like a boyfriend’. If you are not interested in anything serious you shouldn’t be on a dating website or even in the dating game – spend some time on your own figuring out exactly what you want and who you want to be with them go after it.
Dating means you are looking for someone to be with not hooking up with random people to fill your time. Is this what dating has come to in 2014? I believe in treating people how you would like to be treated and that means giving them respect not playing with them and ‘acting like a boyfriend’ taking all the perks of being in a relationship without any of the responsibility.
The last time someone did this to me I showed them the door.
Not everyone is manipulative nor is everyone playing a game. Some people are just trying to live. I’m sure you’ve heard actions speak louder than words. Signals like caring making you happy and checking up on you when your sick are sending signals that you love someone. Thinking that a disclaimer like” i’m not looking for anything serious” in the beginning of a relationship, voids you of any responsibility for your actions, doesn’t make her in the wrong. Also, if you continue leading a woman on who you know you wouldn’t be able to love but are in it for the convenience because she tries to please you on every level, this again doesn’t make her wrong. Rationalization can be found in all evil behavior. It is the very thing that allows someone to use another. It can even justify murder if we let it….that is until “right” comes along and reminds us, that we are wrong.
My understanding of unavailable men, isn’t that he has all this figured out, but just that his guard is up and he is in a cycle of numbing his own feelings. You could spend every night in the same room as him and yet you are alone. Even if he thinks he loves you, he thinks he does what he can in the relationship….he isn’t really there with you, he is off in another place and time.
Us guys think exactly the same to… what’s the point? No woman is worth the hassle and frankly all you do is pick faults with men rather than looking at yourselves as well. Oh well I guess you will be happier alone anyway
When a man states that he is not in for a long term relationship he is being honest and in that occasion a woman must be responsible for her decision in staying and expecting that he will change because he will see how wonderful she is; the problem is when he is not sincere,, when he tells you he loves you but he’s busy to be with you because he works hard, he takes care of his son, bla, bla, bla… the type of guy that he’s not there and h’s in your life… when you are honest, you believe people will be honest with you, but he will not… expecting honesty form this kind of person is like expecting to see ET passing by.. he will not be honest with you, he will not come to you and say: yes, i do not want to have something else with you and worse: when you ask him, just say to me that you dont want me anymore or that you dont have feelings for me and he replies, what a non sense of you.. its nothing about it… it’s completly hurtful to be in this situation with someone like this.. the truth here is: llok to waht he does and not for what he says.. this kind of guy say what you want to hear just to keep you there, for the purpose he wants you for… and you’ll be there while you like him and have hope… and then one day you have to accept things as they are ans understand that no mather what you do, you are being devaluated and kept as a puppet on a string.. and you have no other way then to run away, with your heart broken and mended it by yourself – maybe one of the greatest lessons someone may give to you: don’t loose yourself, your values, your time, your dedication, your self-esteem for a person who can’t or wishes to see you as you truly are… it’s a waste of time, you heart is broken and you are left alone with it…
Clare said: (#24.2)
“Sorry, Karl R, a person having accountability for their own feelings doesn’t entitle you to knowingly hurt them and still claim to be a ‘good guy’.”
I was lousy at dating until I was able to accept a few truths about dating:
1. If a relationship doesn’t succeed, it’s likely that at least one person will get hurt.
2. If a relationship succeeds, it almost guarantees that both partners will get hurt.
3. If you can’t stand getting hurt, you have no business being in relationships.
When I asked a woman for her phone number, I had already accepted the fact that I would probably get hurt -and- she would probably get hurt.
Clare said: (#24.2)
“Most of these men *know* the women are getting attached, and will thus get hurt, and they proceed anyway. And still want to claim to be a ‘good guy’.”
Are men omniscient?
Are men able to read minds?
Are men able to see into the future?
Let me make this simpler.
Are men (on average) more emotionally aware than women are?
Let’s say that you’re dating a man, and you begin to get attached. Shouldn’t you be far more aware of that than he is? Doesn’t your self-knowledge exceed his ESP? At best, he may be able to make an educated guess based on mixed signals he’s getting from you. You, on the other hand, are able to rely upon introspection.
On top of that, do you expect him to know how you react to breakups? You (presumably) have some direct personal experience of how hurt you get. He does not have that same insight.
Have you ever knowingly chosen to endure some pain, because you were also receiving a benefit that more than compensated for the pain? How is some other person supposed to make that decision for you?
Since becoming an adult:
I have never expected a woman to know me better than I know myself. Not even my wife.
I have never expected a woman to be more capable of determining what’s best for me than I am. Not even my wife.
I have never believed that a woman is supposed to be making those decisions for me. Not even my wife.
I have always believed that the women I date are equally capable of knowing themselves, knowing what’s best for them, making their own decisions based on that, and accepting the consequences if they made a poor decision.
I don’t claim to be a nice guy. I claim to be an adult.
When I told my date that our relationship was never going to become serious, I provided her with all the information she needed to make an informed decision. I respected her enough to allow her to decide what course of action was best for her. I also respected her ability to accept the consequences (to her) if she made an unwise decision.
Clare said: (#34)
“Much as I dislike the behaviour of men who plunge ahead with a woman knowning that he will not get hurt and she will, it also makes me cringe inside to see women holding out hope when the signs are pretty clear to me that he’s not available and has no intention of making himself so.”
Why don’t you force those women to break up with those men?
You clearly know what’s better for those women than they do. (Or you believe you know better than they do.) Why do you let them proceed with the relationships anyway? Why don’t you do the responsible thing and protect those women from getting hurt?
That’s a rhetorical question. You and I both know that you would make yourself extremely unpopular if you ran around forcing people to do what you think is best for them. Instead, you sit back, hold your peace, and let them make their own decisions … even if they’re not the decisions you would make if you were in their place.
Why is it the man’s responsibility to end the relationship? Every woman (whether she’s directly involved or just an impartial observer) seems willing to let the relationship play out.
Chelle said: (#26)
“With a guy I have no attraction to, I avoid using him for certain needs even if he seems ok with being used on my terms. I don’t ask to come hang at his place and cuddle when I’m lonely even though I’ve told him I only see him as a friend and won’t sleep with him. Why? Because I have enough experience with guys who say they’re ok with it and then turning out to be *gasp* human, and having a change of feelings later. Could I be put it on him that he said he was fine being my convenient pillow? Sure, but for me to disavow how guys work and treat him like HE’s the problem is a little disingenuous on my part.”
Why would either one of you be “the problem”? Under the circumstance you described, he might get his feelings hurt. That’s the consequence he has to deal with. You might lose him as a friend. That’s the consequence you have to deal with.
If you don’t want to deal with the possible drama (and loss of a friend) if he has a change of heart, that’s fine. That’s an example of you protecting yourself. It’s a little disingenuous to pretend that you’re making that decision entirely for his benefit.
I avoided dating coworkers. I never wanted to run the risk of having to awkwardly deal with an ex-girlfriend on a daily basis at the workplace. That policy wasn’t for the benefit of my female coworkers. It was for my own benefit. I’m not about to go running down to the end of the hall to tell my female coworker that she needs to stop dating the guy in the next cube over.
This was your only error:
“, and accepting the consequences if they made a poor decision.”
That never or I should say RARELY happens on its own. Typically you’ve got to hold feet to fire and even then there is artful dodging… Accountability is not a woman’s strong suit. Just like commitment isn’t a man’s.
Fascinating, Karl R. I always learn so much from your comments. Thank you. It’s great to have a balanced, honest insight into the male mind. I understand where some of the women are coming from in their responses, but I think it’s just about understanding and appreciating that men and women (and people in general) don’t always see things the same way.
I think the trickiest part about dating is that we’re constantly interacting with people who act in much different ways to how we act, see the world and interpret things completely differently to ourselves. And while this happens at work, socially and even in our families too, if we want a relationship, unlike in these other spheres, we can’t just limit contact or cut them off if they annoy us. We need a lot more patience & understanding. Hence why blogs like this are so popular.
So I take your point Karl R that the only thing we can do is be mindful of our own feelings and how things affect us, and be honest and open about what we can and can’t tolerate.
Ladies, also, from another comment I recall that one of Karl R’s girlfriends (I think, even maybe the one who is his now wife) was somewhat unclear about her intentions and he said he avoided leaving things at her place etc just in case it didn’t go anywhere. I think from memory he ended up initiating a conversation with her to understand where he stood. So, the ‘self-protective’ thing (for want of a better term) he’s advocating works both ways and he’s not suggesting we do anything that he’s not doing himself. And, like men, women also don’t always know exactly what they want or where a relationship is going initially.
Marika said:
“So I take your point Karl R that the only thing we can do is be mindful of our own feelings and how things affect us, and be honest and open about what we can and can’t tolerate.”
That’s a good paraphrase of one of the biggest points I was trying to make.
Just to be clear (and I think you were implying this), you have to be honest with yourself about what you can/can’t tolerate … and then act on that information.
If you want your date/boyfriend/girlfriend to act on what’s best for you, you have to be honest with them about the same information. Otherwise, they will be stumbling around in the dark.
Until you know someone extremely well, don’t count on them acting in your best interest.
I fully believe that if you want someone to know what you think/feel/want/believe, you have to tell them.
And if you want to know what someone else thinks/feels/wants/believes, you have to ask them.
Me to my wife: “Are you yelling at the dog because you’re mad at yourself, or because you’re mad at me?”
Regarding your recollections:
Damn, you’ve got a good memory.
Karl R,
Haha, women remember everything, you don’t realise that yet?! 😉 In reality, I’m sure you wrote that a long time ago, but I didn’t actually read it until a few months ago (or less, maybe). I do remember a lot of things you write, because you have this knack for being so logical & reasonable in the arena of love, which not all of us do. I consider myself a reasonable person in general, but in romantic relationships, I accept behaviour I know I shouldn’t and don’t act in my own self-interest far too often. (Women like me keep EMK in business :)). Before reading this blog I was definitely in the camp of ‘my partner should..’ (fill in the blanks with: treat me like this, know what I want/need because it’s obvious, put my feelings first etc).
Dating complete strangers online from all walks of life has been an eye opener, as people will definitely try on a lot of things I find to be completely unacceptable. For instance, one guy flaked out on dates twice with me at the last minute due to work. I eventually told him it wasn’t working and blocked him on Whatsapp (another weird quirk, he would only communicate via Whatsapp, even phone calls were made via WA). Almost 6 months later (last month) he messaged me on the dating app we originally met. I wrote him a polite “I’m not interested” message, he told me I was being “defensive”, I ignored this and a week later he sent me a kiss-face. All of these I consider to be ridiculous & unacceptable, but how would he know that unless I tell him?? Until I blocked him, I was still communicating with him, still feeding his ego, still showing him I was interested, even though he was a complete flake. My mother has been married over 40 years to a man that she is still surprised doesn’t know what she wants. He has a role to play in this, of course, and should be sensitive to his wife’s needs, but the fact is that she doesn’t directly tell him what she wants (until it gets so bad that they have a fight, and then no one’s listening).
That ended up being a long one! My point is that I’m hearing what you’re saying and valuing it, Karl. Not everything you say makes me feel warm & fuzzy, and it definitely challenges my values sometimes, but rather than being affronted by this ‘logic-based dating’, I feel like it may be a good thing to try.
Ive been a long time reader of Evans posts but this is the first time I’ve commented. Regarding my experience. The last guy I was seeing (about 2 years) told me eventually that he can only do a casual relationship with me. It broke my heart. I became attached to him whilst I was seeing him. I had a lot of feelings for him. We parted as I couldn’t agree to his terms and over a two year period of no contact he sure enough had his fill of one night stands , casual sex etc. we came into contact again He apologised for lying , not treating me well and for being an asshole. He also said that he feels he can’t develop an emotional connection to a woman. I sat there and just listened to what he had to say. He also said he would like me back in a casual relationship way as we ‘know each other well’ . It’s my fault for actually agreeing to see him. But I feel that his apology was more to do with his ego than Actually feeling sorry that he hurt me. He attributed his bad luck in his life to him being ass to me. Ever since the apology . It’s been a month now and no word from him. I’m not the type to sleep around Or be like those other women he was with . I lost my virginity to him, hence the reason why at times I have felt very depressed about my whole situation. I’ve even been to counselling. I have been on dates within that two years I didn’t see him but I didn’t find anyone I wanted to date. I know I should forget about this person but I guess the memories of the past are still there but also bad memories too. So yes , this person is most likely emotionally unavailable not just to me but the fact that he has not had stable relationships and said that I’m the girl he has known the most. I’m upset that women like me get caught into the web of these men but through being on dates with many people after I’ve learned my lesson. These men are charming . Sexual and good in bed but the long term mental effects of having dealt with them is long lasting. I think at this moment it was a case of curiousity killed the cat. I just don’t think men like that will ever change.
Some of these EU people could be suffering from a personality disorder such as narcissism. You really have to try and not fall for the sob sorry – “I’m sorry I am such a scumbag” or “I’m sorry I was such an asshole and treated you poorly.”
The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If your love interest has never been married, can’t commit to anyone or anything, and especially if he/she is middle aged – well hummmm.
Their could be a reason that he/sh has never found the “one”. No one will ever be the one. I knew one fellow who literally had to dump everyone he got too close to. The person who got the worst treatment was the live in girlfriend of 15 years who was asked to move in and out of his house over 6 times – because every time he met “the real one” he had to take the new GF for a spin around the block, and it always failed and he always went back to old faithful who sat there like an Irish Setter – listening to all his excuses and sob stories.
You really have to be careful and educate and protect yourself – people with severe EU issues – you should RUN. Don’t try to fix it – you didn’t break it. They will hurt you over and over and cry all the while – this man would literally cry on queue. I would say in situations of narcissism and borderline personality disorder – run run run – and NCEA (No contact ever again). Do a little research and you might be surprised that your love interest is really kinda an ill person.
Thanks for the reply Jo . I think my love interest in mentally unstable . . As Fran who posted on post 69 mentioned a friend who had the guy offer commitment then pretend he never said it . My guy did the same thing. Say words which at the time I believed . He said over two years ago he wanted to try things again with me. Withholding sex whilst getting to know each other. Then it was revealed weeks later that he can only do a casual relationship and as he put it “im allowed to change my mind”. And yes, there’s been lots of sob stories , excuses etc and now over two months of disappearance after his apology sob story. As you mentioned about the person you knew that dumped people who got too close . He said back in the past that he didnt like kissing . But the truth is that kissing is way too personal and out of their comfort zone with these guys. I too feel that I’m like a standby girl whilst he sleeps with other women hoping to find the one. It feels like this pattern…ie two months ago, sob story apology , leaving me there on hold…keep going out meeting women…casual flings end….apology to me , comes back repeat…
Women may be able to fake orgasms, but men can fake whole relationships. ~James Shubert
I agree with Chelle and Jo….I am beginning to feel like I am the emotionally unavailable one. Maybe that is why that is all I attract…mirror image and all that. I am kinda at the point of “oh well, ” (not currently in a relationship and not sure I care)
Good article and very good contributions in the comments, it helps to understand our own experience and learn to not repeat the same mistakes with these men…
However I don’t really agree with the last sentence of the article: “You can’t expect him to value you like a girlfriend if you don’t insist on being treated like a proper girlfriend”
The first weeks/months of dating, you get to know each other, you play…and I think letting the guy know from day 1 that you want to be his girlfriend and be treated as such otherwise you’ll leave will just make him pull away…In general at the beginning men like to keep it casual, because they’re not sure yet if you’re girlfriend material, and it’s the same for women, but it doesn’t mean we don’t value ourselves because we accept to be in this “not (yet) girlfriend” state for a while…
Thank you for this article
My friend was in this situation
I think that maybe it shouldn’t be all about what the woman did wrong and that men have to take responsibility also
My friend was first told by this guy that he wanted a lifelong commitment with her. He then pretended he had never said such things (even though he wrote them on email as well, she showed me the emails) and when she pulled away he once again filled her head with such comments
So I think men have to take responsibility also for their actions
Treat every woman with the respect you would want for your daughter, sister, mother, cousin etc
If you don’t want a relationship don’t lie to women to attract them to get their affection, commitment, support etc those things only come in exchange for a strong committed relationship, a guy cannot have this from any woman (other than his mother) in exchange for nothing and the problem is that some guys want all the great things women offer, enjoy it all and give her nothing.
As was just confirmed for me yet again, you walk away from these guys and don’t look back.
I have dealt with some all women organizations and I tell my friends this: I can never be a lesbian because I cannot deal with women. I think women do have to take some blame for men being asses nowadays because for a lot of women, if you are nice to them, they abuse it, it’s only when you stand up for yourself and bitch them right back, that’s when they respect you. Maybe it is a human condition. So it makes a guy who can stand up for his own values even under these kind of stress more worth while.
I disagree Mery. Have you ever thought that maybe some men have been taught by women that if they are nice, they lose respect for him and move on? Why is it always a question by men? They often ask on this blog, why we women don’t like nice guys. So obviously most women don’t like nice guys, and prefer to date the bad boys. Oh sure, once she has fallen for him, she wants him to become a nice guy, but why would he? Every thing women have taught him is that this is a sure way to be disrespected by women, and end up alone.
Maybe you should just let a guy know on the first date that you are not like other women. You aren’t looking for a bad boy, you want a nice guy, and that if a guy is not nice to you, you will not date him. And don’t make exceptions for a bad boy just because he is very good looking.
I agree with Chelle. After a while, it all just seems too complicated and not worth it. I started “dating” at 16 and 16 years later, I’m still unmarried. At one point, love & commitment were what I wanted more than anything. Now? I just am kinda indifferent to the idea of finding someone to share my life with. As much time & attention Women give to sorting out relationship issues, we could all be committing to our hobbies & passions and living more inwardly fulfilling lives. I’m not here to suggest that great guys do not exist, or to bash men in general.I’m simply saying that some of us may be well over it by the time Prince Charming decides to appear. Cinderella went back to school, started her own business and lived happily ever after in her luxury condo. The end. LOL
@notbuyingit…. what can I say… Perfect! you’ve summed up my situation perfectly… time to move on Without Mr EU… I have no doubt that he will “return” at some point in the future to “test the waters” as you quite rightly put it… Although I’m not dating as yet (beginning to thinking I may have been a little EU myself) I am now looking for MY Mr right and I know if I dont (kindly) walk away from Mr EU, I’ll never get my Mr Right. Thank you!
This article makes me laugh. I call these type of “men” selfish cowards. At what point does your integrity overrule your libido? If you don`t want asparagus, don’t eat it. It’s that simple. How about some responsibility for your actions? It’s 50-50 no matter what you’re calling each other.
I find that these men are in a phase of need. They need to be restored (from whatever experience took away their manhood) and they use women to do that. They can’t do it alone…like women can and do.
Women. Love yourself more. You have to be your world. If you let a man enter, make sure they are worthy of being there. Good, available ones do exist.
Yeah and they abhore absolutists that make rash judgement calls on a person’s struggle or recovery. The good ones you say exist don’t use women period.
They don’t use them to recover, to have sex, to pay bills… they don’t use people in any degree in any circumstance. They aren’t users.
And not all men NEED a woman or have to have one or one is required to come back from a heartbreak. It also doesn’t have anything to do with manhood. It has to do with a person’s heart and their deep feelings. You seem crass and insensitive and remind me of the nasty girls on the playground that got off from teasing boys…
You clearly wouldn’t know what it’s like to be with a gentleman b/c you’re sarcastic male roast rings of personal experience and frankly those weren’t gentlemen to leave you feeling the way you do about men.
Women who say “all men are the same” are not the women who realize “I need to stop dating the same type of men” It’s all their fault and the relationship is all about you…. Trust me the good ones haven’t shown up because they know enough to steer clear of a cynical sadist.
I have a big problem with number 4:
“If you’ve been giving us all of you while requiring nothing more than our bare minimum then that negatively affects how much we believe you value yourself and we know in our heart we can never be with you. No matter how much we want to, we can’t build up the motivation to give you everything if we know you’ve been content with us giving you barely anything. We need to be challenged, we need to know that you’ll accept nothing less than everything.”
“when you give him everything without requiring more than the bare minimum”…. please, a woman doesn’t need to give less in order to REQUIRE more. If she is confused by a man’s lack of communication and inconsistent behaviour, I think it is brave and strong of her to manage to be consistent in her actions and way of caring. Maybe she asks for more not by treating the relationship like a game of “who can give less than the other” but by showing him she can be consistent and can be trusted… i think the mature woman would require more by simply stating it with words and proper communication. Of course if nothing happens after that, then it would be up to the two if they would like to continue on with the relationship or not.
Number 4 makes me really upset because it promotes a sexist view that a woman cannot pursue a man while men are seen as charming when they pursue women.
Also, what of the men who were giving at first then decided to change their minds after a month? I think it is the woman’s way to fight for and appreciate her value by being respectful of this man’s feelings… trying to understand where he is coming from… to see if he still interested… and to then see if they can work it out… I would feel upset if I had invested in a relationship because the man was so adamant and giving in the giving….only for him to withdraw after you had invested due to his initial prompting…. i think it is strength to fight for what you had invested already. Number 4 makes me upset for these reasons.
Instead of being upset at #4, you need to pay particular heed to it and try to live it as Evan advises.
When a man starts pulling away and you start acting nicer, you’re actually REWARDING him for pulling away. Some women, if they think they’re losing their man, end up offering more sex or more adventurous sex, to try to “keep” him. Wrongest move ever. Why? Because she’s REWARDING him for his distancing behavior.
Learn to mirror a man’s closeness and distance. He distances himself, you distance yourself. He comes closer, you warm up. Teach yourself to reward a man for his “closer-ing” (for lack of better term) behavior instead of for his distancing behavior.
You show your value this way. When you reward a man for his distancing behavior, you’re showing that you feel his worth is higher than yours. And instead of attracting him more, you’ll actually push him further away.
This article is dead on. First determine if hes an EUM or a player. Dont even bother w/the player. Women need to mirror an EUM’s behavior back to them. Example: if he doesn’t call the next day, don’t u dare call, txt or contact him!!! But when he does creep up, be NICE not a condescending b****. IF A MAN WANTS TO BE WITH YOU, HE WILL COME TO YOU.
If u can’t handle an EUMs rubber band behavior while he’s working his issues out, don’t b b**** or a weeping baby about it. Directly & simply tell him ‘We can’t see each other anymore bc I want more than ur willing to give.’ Because an EUM will not* budge until he is ready. A mans walls are so much higher & stronger than a woman’s. U cannot** scale them or force ur way in.
And most most most importantly, listen to an EUMs behavior NOT** his words when it comes to you. Mirror him, don’t try and ‘fix’ him.
I have a comment…why is everyone of these types of sites geared towards blaming the woman. There are 2 sides of this story just like any. The woman with low self esteem and confidence issues…and the commitment phobe jack-off man stringing her along. Lets at least share the blame 50/50
Women are the ones who come in droves to these sites looking for answers; unfortunately, few men do. So, the advice is written for the women who read it.
No one is suggesting that women are the only ones to blame for relationship problems. But since they’re the only ones reading, it’s a case of stating, “you won’t be able to change how men behave bc the only person you can change is yourself; here are a few ways you can do things differently to be more effective.”
Once men start flocking to the internet to figure out how to be better boyfriends, there’ll be more advice geared to them. Since that’s not likely to happen any time soon, advice is written for women on how to be good girlfriends and also to stop dating guys who aren’t good boyfriends in return.
Great article. I think the part that hit me most was the part about SAYING you’re a strong, confident woman and actually BEING one!!!! I just ended a 3 month “relationship ” with a guy who was the epitome of “emotionally unavailable “!!!! It was so hard and so confusing because his actions simply did not match his words. When we first met, the connection was unlike any connection I’d ever experienced, and according to him, he felt the same way. To use his words, “we don’t know each other but our souls do and they finally connected”., “we were cut from the same cloth”. Yes, it was THAT intense. I feel very angry because he told me he wanted a relationship. However, after a few weeks, he did the classic “switch” and ironically it was after one of the greatest dates we’d had!! So, he backed off, I gave him his space and he came back. However, things felt different. After another couple of weeks of being together, getting closer, feeling like I was falling in love, he tells me that he had decided to let his guard down and to let me in 100%. He told me that all he wanted was to love me and for me to love him and he was “all in”. Well, a week later, he started to back off AGAIN. The anxiety this created was just too much. I gently told him how I felt , voiced my concerns about his inconsistent behavior, and told him what my relationship needs were. I did this in a very direct way, not needy or angry: just very matter of fact. He agreed with me about everything I said and told me he was “ready to change, NOW.” Well, he didn’t. In fact, he backed away even further and it HURT. At that point, I decided to end it. I didn’t want to do it in person because I didn’t want to run the risk of getting “weak” in case he tried to ask for another chance. So, I wrote him a letter telling him that despite my strong feelings, I had to end it. My needs weren’t being met and I refused to settle, etc. Well, before I got the chance to send it, he ended it with me via text. He said he just wanted to casually date and have fun and this wasn’t fun anymore ( interestingly enough, 5 nights earlier he told me that he has never had so much fun with someone and how great it was to meet a woman he was not only crazy attracted to but also felt he had a new best friend.) WOW. I was so hurt. My heart felt like it was crushed and I cried harder than I can remember in years. But, he did me a favor because as much as I cared for him and loved the chemistry, he was not emotionally able or willing to give me what I needed. I ended up sending the letter anyway because it made me feel better. I just don’t understand men who do this. They say they want a loving relationship then when they get it (or it’s going in that direction) they do a 180.
what if the guy you were seeing was a bit of a drinker, and grew up in an alcoholic household where there was abuse, and fights with a parent, his mom dying of liver sclorosis 4 years ago. he seems to carry pain from it and has said he cant commit, he wishes he could change who he was and how thehe is, he wants a reltionship but runs away. he still goes on dating sites but finds girls who arent like him. thei met him things were great but he warned me he runs when he gets close. he said it wouldnt happen with me bht it has…we didnt sleep together but were sexual in other ways…he was very caring, always texting and calling and making sure i was in his plans, i met his friends, he met mine, we were getting close, then he did what he said he wouldnt…he wont respond to my calls or texts, i have stopped contact to give space bht im very upset. he seems to have female friends and is still going on the dating website. im not sure if it is because its safe for him because there is no risk of commitment and he gets his needs met still or if he is no longer intrested.
it seemed to change overnight, he was very caring and always made sufe i was there in his plans. i didnt think he would dissapear on me…i asked him when he told me he did this in his past, what do i do…he said to just text him, i did…no responce. i texted a few messages to voice my feelings andthat im here for him…but i will leave it at that.he still is online the dating site. im just wondering if he isnt intrested…he has not texted me back saying he isnt..i just get nothing. councillors have told me its him and hes scared of commitment, the dating site is no risk commitment. he told me this is what he does when he gets close but im very upset.
you ran into a commitment-phobe. sorry, it sucks bad. your counselors are right
I’ve been with a man who has no problem admitting he has walls and has even nicknamed himself “the rock” . I find myself lonely much of the time and when I tell him ..very clearly..what he said or did that made me feel like I didn’t matter he becomes defensive and even sarcastic. This feels like vinegar on the wound. I have no idea how to show him what empathy or caring might be shown from him. His last relationship ..his wife of 28 years seemed cool and unemotional. They lived separate lives, were uninvolved with each other. It’s what he’s used to. It’s such a struggle. At this point I feel like throwing in the towel. He’s got too many walls that I can’t break. I also think he may be a narcissist. ..which makes it very difficult to have hope that he’ll ever understand that it needs to be a 2 way street and that expressing disappointment should not cause him to react so defensively and not LISTEN. If I love someone ..my heart is on my sleeve…no games. No lies. No BS. I’ve come to the conclusion that for the most part there is a wonderfully huge gap in maturity levels between males and females. We’re just fundamentally wired so differently. Venus ..Mars right? When a passionate meets a cool fish with plenty of walls..well…this is what happens. LONELINESS. You can choose to stay and accept that your needs will never be truly met or move on and possibly lose someone that really loved you but wasn’t articulate or able to show it. I’m there and it breaks my heart bc I love him endlessly but I feel empty inside. This is my 3rd serious relationship and am wondering why I can’t seem to break the cycle of attracting emotionally absent men..
You’re not attracting them, JoJo. You’re choosing them and staying with them despite their emotional unavailability. Choose different men and your problem is solved.
Indeed! Too many women get caught up in believing they can somehow magically “attract” only certain type of people or make them change cause they love them. This works in Disney movies, not in real life.
What Evan and Lau_ra said.
If your man can’t meet your reasonable needs, then get out of the relationship.
Your love will not magically make him give you what you want.
Men do what they want.
If you stick around even when he doesn’t give you what you want, what incentive does he have to change?
Go find a more compatible man. Toss this one back.
I think what people need to be saying instead of, “i’m not looking for a relationship right now,” is, “i want an open relationship.” That is honest. You are saying you want to be in a relationship, while still being able to sleep with other people. If you say the former that leaves room for interpretation. The other party may assume that there is potential for change, if things are actively becoming more serious.
It all boils down to having healthy self-esteem. If you are care about yourself, you will care about others. People who tip-toe around the truth and keep people in the dark about their actions are insecure. The people who accept these behaviors are as well.
Ana,
Men aren’t going to say that they want an open relationship up front, because they know most women would next them upon hearing that. It is NOT in man’s self-interest to say that.
Therefore, we women have to assume THE WORST when a man says “I’m not looking for a relationship right now.” Because, if left to her, she will ALWAYS interpret that to her advantage, as in he’ll change his mind if he falls in love with her, so all she has to do is to get him to fall in love with her.
Doesn’t work that way for the simple reason that as soon as a guy says to a woman “I’m not looking for a serious relationship right now”, he’s ALREADY made up his mind that the woman is NOT what he’s looking for. No amount of waiting or great dates or great sex will change his mind.
OTOH, if a man is SILENT on the issue, as in he does NOT say he’s not looking for a relationship nor does he say he is, he’s open to having his mind changed, in either direction.
However, you still have to do your due diligence and ascertain whether or not he really likes you or is just trying to wait you out for sex.
Don’t rush the relationship. Just enjoy the present with him.
this article helped me understand so much! Thank you. As a single mom it’s hard to create the ideal relationship. Sometimes a casual relationship is all that’s possible or what seems to be needed. But at the end of the day, sex without commitment feels empty and sad (after, during its great). But what you said about the guy not valuing the woman because she doesn’t project that is really eye opening. Also I couldn’t understand why my casual guy was so sweet and loving even. I always misconstrued his adoring comments as his wanting to get more serious and couldn’t get why he would disappear between meetings and never act boyfriendy. This really cleared things up. No mas!
As someone who has tried to play Florence Nightingale to emotionally unavailable men more often than I should have, there’s only one answer–kick him to the curb! Situations where the emotionally unavailable guy does a 360 and becomes emotionally available thanks to the love of a good woman (i.e. Fifty Shades) happens more often in books or movies than real life. Whatever issues they have, they need to sort through themselves. You know it’s time to walk when being with someone feels worse than being alone or with friends.
I agree, Christine.
By definition, good relationships are easy and non-stressful. A woman should not be in a constant state of stress, good or bad, in a relationship. If a guy gives you butterflies, that’s still stress, but in a good way 🙂 If you’re “dying” to see him, that’s stress, again, in a good way, but still stress. And we all know the bad stress.
If the relationship is constantly stressful (good or bad), be careful. Too much passion is just as bad as too much anger and resentment. A good relationship makes you feel happy and confident or neutral and confident, as you ebb and flow through the relationship, with occasional fights (no fights are just as bad as too many).
Amen to that. I’ve also learned the hard way about having no fights being as bad as too many. I’m sure a lot of the men I dated and left might have been baffled–“but we never had any fights!” Well, a lot of times we didn’t have fights because I kept my mouth shut about things that were really bothering me (I know, not good!) In hindsight, I should have left when I didn’t feel safe in expressing my (reasonable) needs. Thankfully, now I’m with a guy who makes me feel safe and secure.
100% agree!! Thanks!
Thanks for sharing Evan, great article and summarizes all you talk about. It was great to get another man’s perspective. Very helpful until the last paragraph. The author asks what women expect from EA men, what they should do with women they are interested in. Here’s a woman’s perspective and advice for them. Don’t put yourself on dating websites and say you are looking for a “relationship”. We don’t respect men that do that. Since you are not available, don’t even hint that you are, by “being nice guys” and doing the minimum to make yourself look like you are. Women don’t respect that. We are looking for men we can trust. If you are unavailable for love and relationships, but still are interested or attracted and looking for the two out of three things men look for, sex and a fun person to hang with, just say so. Some of us will be into that too. Women respect men that are honest. If you are unavailable, temporarily or permanently, the only place we need to put you is in the deleted or friends category. Why the author would even ask if he should loose our number or treat us badly to keep us from falling is fight or flight, and is really another sign of emotional unavailability. If you have our number it’s because you should have explained to us you’re only going to call to hang out as friends or maybe a booty call. We respect guys that do that. It’s very rare that a woman would respect, love or spend the rest of her life with an unavailable man. We eventually snap out of it and run to the next available guy.
Amen
I agree with the headline and what you are saying. Chemistry and compatibility are not the same thing.
That’s like saying “Women who are insecure shouldn’t get into relationships. They make relationships hell for their partners.”
Once you recognize that your partner can’t meet your needs…and usually women know this when she starts nagging, being distrustful, feeling like she’s not a priority…she needs to dump him no matter how handsome, charismatic, or rich he is.
But women don’t want to dump the guy when he’s mistreating her in his way. She keeps giving him more chances. She keeps making excuses for him. And then she blames him when he does finally dump her or she finally dumps him after years of “trying to make it work.”
We women have the power to walk away from any relationship that makes us unhappy more often than it makes us happy. If your happy/unhappy ration is less than 70/30 and looks more like 50/50 or 30/70, LEAVE.
He can’t be cruel to you if you’re not around.
I think that’s precisely why women often stay too long in bad relationships. I’ve never seen any relationship where the happy/unhappy ratio was 0/100. Usually, there are still some good times, even in a bad relationship. Even in the worst case scenario of an abusive relationship, there are often “honeymoon” periods in between the abuse (i.e. once read an interview with Tina Turner where she described all the “apology” gifts she got after Ike’s beatings). Those few good times give someone false hope that things will get better, if they just “work” through the difficulties, etc. In the bad relationships I had before, I often wanted to leave sooner than I actually did. However, I swear these men had some ESP where they sensed I was about to leave. Then, that’s when they turned on the charm again and I got hopeful that good times would return. In hindsight, I wish I had seen through that, left sooner, and spared myself a lot of pain. Do as I say, not as I do! (or did in the past–I’m happy to honestly say I’m now in a relationship that really does make me happy the vast majority of the time).
You nailed it with even in the worst relationships, there is that glimps of false hope!
What does emotionally unavailable really mean anyway? I mean, I thought that about my current BF and he sends such mixed signals. Tells me “just because I don’t want to talk doesn’t mean I don’t love you.”. He also can’t look me in the eyes and say ‘I love you’. He knows I want him to so if he says it and he’s not looking at my face, he’ll make a point to turn to look at me (with raised eyebrows) after he says it. Like he’s saying “see. I’m looking at you.”. I’ve told him in the past we do not have to say it and can see other people (when we first started dating) but he insisted he didn’t have to, that he loves me..yadda, yadda. He doesn’t like to talk about the relationship, therefore we don’t and I see a therapist to try to figure out how to do that with him. So far I have a lovely (long letter forming for him. We’ll see what happens!
Well I recently got involved sexually with an emotionally unavailable man, though I think he might be interested in being with me bt doesn’t want to accept that the reason why we haven’t taken this into a relationship is because he’s emotionally unavailable I don’t advise women to fall in love with emotionally unavailable guys cos u hurt more
This contributes to the game of dating. I don’t feel the need to participate in gamifying my relationship. If a man wants to step up and claim me as his, he better be prepared to invest all the way. I’m an all in or all out kind of gal. There is no in between. If we fall in love, then I’m prepared to invest fully. I am a deeply loving giving woman, but I require that from my man as well.
I wish I would have red this a tear and a half ago. Now I feel trapo ed d with an emotionally unavailable ” Good guy”. He’s also introverted and verbally abusive. I’m disabled and I can’t get out of g his even tho I know he’s just not the guy gor me. Helpless over changeover him and homeless if I go. Sometimes life just sucks hard core.
Why do I feel like women are always having to cater to men. I thought men were pretty cut an dry. I’ve only been told by one man that he wasn’t ready. They expect us to read there minds. What happened to the days you liked someone they liked you back you dated and got married. If you are to available they devalue you and pull away. If you ignore them then they will call. Or if you call or text to much your needy or clingy. The whole dating process is so complicated. If we could just communicate with one another…What a concept!!!
My personal discovery has been this, selection process is KEY and dictates almost 100% of the outcome.
Your theory ONLY applies to THOSE men.. not ALL men.
I say this b/c I will never adopt the belief “All women cheat” simply because the two times I fell in love they cheated and left me for presumably greener grass..
and so you know and don’t presume “well it must have been you…”
I have never been unemployed (and I won’t be. I can back this if need be)
I make a very good living
I am honest and faithful, I disclose what I can up front
I am sensitive to her feelings and can look at her side of any situation we find ourselves in.
I can list more things.. but I know I am not perfect. It doesn’t exist in either gender.
I used to snore, I lost weight now I don’t. I am fairly attractive.. enough to where you shouldn’t be looking around..
I am a good lover. At least enough to where you shouldn’t be looking