Should Women Ask Men Out on First Dates?

Should Women Ask Men Out on First Date

Dear Evan,

What’s the truth? Should women ask men out on first dates? Is it true that a man is “really not that into you” if he’s not asking you out?

Thanks!
Danielle

Dear Danielle,

You asked me a question, but you really asked me two different questions which have two different answers:

1) Should women ask out men on first dates?

No. No, they should not. Women asking men on first dates can be taken as aggressive, desperate, and masculine. At the very least, it can signify a loss of power. So I wouldn’t recommend that you ever utter the words, “Would you like to go out with me?” to any men.

This doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said before, because God knows, I’m not an advocate of women acting like helpless, shrinking violets. Not at all. But there’s a difference between asking a man out and getting a man to ask you out. I vote strongly for the latter.

There’s a difference between asking a man out and getting a man to ask you out.

So let’s get this straight:

Women asking men out? No.

Women using all their feminine wiles to get men to ask them out? Yes.

So what are these feminine wiles of which I speak? Besides your everyday, run-of-the-mill flirtation, there are TONS of things a woman can do to aid in her own dating process.

Let’s say you’re at a party and you see a cute guy across the room. Your friend tells you to go up and ask him out. But you’ve read this article and you know that he probably won’t respond to such a direct approach. What are you gonna do? How can you take action to make HIM take action?

So, if you see a man  you want to meet, how can you meet him? By putting yourself in the position to meet him. You can cross the room, park yourself seven feet to his diagonal, turn and smile. Now that he’s in your line of sight, he has an opportunity to make eye contact with you. And when men make eye contact with you when you’re smiling, that’s their invitation to come over and introduce themselves.

Result: Woman takes action. Man makes a move. Woman stays in control and keeps her feminine energy.

It’s important to understand this dynamic when we get to Danielle’s next question.

2) Is it true that a man is “really not that into you” if he’s not asking you out?

Yes. Kind of…. See, we men know, and have been conditioned, and may even have the biological imperative, to be the “aggressors”. For better or worse, this is the way society is set up. Men ask out women. We ask them to prom. We ask them to go steady. We ask them if they want to have sex. We ask them if they will marry us. Women are the gatekeepers to what we want. When that energy shifts, it often throws us for a loop.

This is why women shouldn’t push men for sex. Or ask men to commit. Or ask men to marry them. It’s not that they shouldn’t desire these things; it’s that generally, the man asks and the woman says yes/no.

But there are some men who don’t embrace these traditional roles – not because they’re iconoclasts or neo-feminists, but simply because they’re shy or insecure. Unless you give them the key to your heart and half-way unlock the door, they’re never going to get inside. Mostly because they’re afraid of rejection and don’t want to put themselves out there.

If you have the hots for the cute, quiet guy in IT, he may be totally into you, but be too shy to do anything.

So where does this leave a woman with a crush? Depends on the guy. With guys who are alpha male types – confident, secure, good with women – yeah, if he’s not asking you out, he’s just not that into you. Type A men know that they need to ask out women, and are usually adept at doing so. However, if you have the hots for the cute, quiet guy in IT, he may be totally into you, but be too shy to do anything.

That’s when it’s your job to make it easier for him. Not to ask him out, but to make it clear that you’re amenable to being asked out. Being flirtatious, hanging around his desk, joining him for lunch… As long as he knows that his advances will be well-received, he will probably make the advance.

And if he doesn’t?

Just ask him out.

It’s only rejection. Guys deal with it every day.

(And yeah, I’m contradicting myself, but only for shy guys!)

1
13

Join 7 Million Readers

And the thousands of women I've helped find true love. Sign up for weekly updates for help understanding men.

I hate spam as much as you do, therefore I will never sell, rent, or give away your email address.

Join our conversation (351 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 91
    openly jay

    Vino: “I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes – no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. ”

    See, this sort of statement is offensive to women because it’s some guy overgeneralising and telling women what’s going on in their heads (and attacking them for flaws that were purely speculated).

    Well, Dorothy & Toto must be somewhere nearby because that, my friends, is most certainly a straw man.

    Vino, I suggest you limit your assertions to fact from now on. I trust you know the difference.

  2. 92
    vino

    openly:

    Did you read a flipping word I wrote in this thread besides that little snippet? Please do before thinking you can castigate, or take something out of context.

    And regarding my ‘assertions’ being limited to ‘facts’ – I can certainly take the time to research articles, books, etc. to source every little thing I write. Something tells me if that is the standard, there would be precious few posts, and ones that do exist not favorable to ladies.

    BTW, the preceding paragraph to the one YOU chose says:

    “About appealing to women to be authentic and initiate contact – I’m simply saying that if a woman wants to talk to a guy, go talk to him. Just as if a guy wants to talk to a girl, he should. the problem is expecting him to always talk. I think it’s hypocritical to expect people to do things you yourself are unwilling to do (not you personally, but the royal you ).”

    Then follows the one openly chose:

    “I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes – no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. Poly Sci tells us that no one wants to willingly give up power, so there you have it. I think it’s that simple.”
    openly wrote:

    What speculated flaws? The fact that many, if not, most women expect treatment they themselves are unwilling to give (based upon the responses in this thread)? This is offensive? Puh-leeze.

    “See, this sort of statement is offensive to women because it’s some guy overgeneralising and telling women what’s going on in their heads…”

    What? Only women can criticize actions by women? Give me a break. Or it can only be done in a fashion you approve of? Respectfully, save the sanctimony.

    And I don’t care if someone is offended by my pointing out hypocrisy. Hypocrites usually do mind it.

    Oh, and FYI, a straw man argument is the fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody’s argument, rather than the actual argument they’ve made.

    What women on the whole here are saying is that they expect men to initiate contact with them. I’m not creating a caricature or extreme version of the position at all. I’m saying that is the case. It’s hypocritical, because they are equal and can do everything men can do, so expecting preferential treatment in one sphere (dating) while being equal in another is hypocritical, and an anachronistic double standard.

    But it’s not a straw man argument. Please be correct before you level that accusation. And read posts fully before doing so.

  3. 93
    cinnamon

    vino,
    re:#85

    Why I seek to understand is because I see a lot of idealism hidden in your posts, though certainly affected by a considerable dose of disillusionment.

    In connection with the above, I believe it is better to look for good things in people rather than pointing out their faults. Holding negative expectations towards someone can easily lead to the so called self-fulfilling prophecy, as far as I know there is a number of experiments within e.g. social psychology that confirm that.

    Now, I’m again prepared to be accused of hypocrisy ;-). I just stated I had a negative experience with initiating contact first and hold negative expectations in his area. Well, after reading this whole thread I certainly have a more nuanced picture in my head than I had before. And getting a more nuanced picture is the only reason why I at all started to read this blog.

    My point is you can easily argue and discuss inconsistences in someone’s way of looking at things without putting a negative label on them.

  4. 94
    hunter

    to Vino,

    I hear there are many women who approach men. I understand these women that approach men, are labeled, the “man”, in the relationship. Have you ever heard the saying, “There are more men in the world with vaginas?”……hhmmhhh, yes,…..

  5. 95
    hunter

    to vino,

    …most cute/good looking guys are approached by women, on a daily basis!….

  6. 96
    Eda

    The argument that have been made that women want equality in one area — employment, but not in the other — dating/romance doesn’t acknowledge that lots of men also prefer more the traditional male/female roles in dating. It is those men who don’t really want a woman to ask them out. They do like concrete indication that woman are interested, but they still want to do the pursuing. Some of my male friends really don’t speak very highly of women who aggressively pursue them.

    I do realize that the changing gender roles can be hard on men, but they are hard on women too. We are given two messages — you don’t really need a man — you can be self sufficient, but at the same time, we are seen as somehow lacking if we don’t have a man/SO. It’s my perception, that men who are single by choice or not, aren’t judged as harshly as single women. I just wish that we could help each other find solutions to the instead of complaining all the time. I, for example, try to show up with more feminine sensibilities when I am in a romantic relationship. I’m not perfect, but I try — and that’s all we can do.

  7. 97
    vino

    My friends cinn, hunter & Eda,

    Perhaps there is idealism dosed with disillusionment. In general, I try to live within the realm of what is more likely than not. I also think that idealism, like love, may be blind. However, I think I read it here, it also need not be deaf, dumb and stupid either. You have to see where your ideals fit in a reality where things that may contradict your ideals are more likely than not to occur.

    Admittedly, calling something or someone hypocritical is probably not the best way to win friends & influence people every time. But pussy-footing (sorry for the phrase, it’s the most accurate that comes to mind) around everything to not offend does little in my opinion, either, because people often don’t get the point if you pussy-foot too much.

    “I hear there are many women who approach men. I understand these women that approach men, are labeled, the man, in the relationship. Have you ever heard the saying, There are more men in the world with vaginas? hhmmhhh, yes, ..”

    hunter, my experience is that most women, whether they approach men or not, constantly test and indirectly prod (I don’t mean this in a negative way, BTW) to see whether he’s going to be man enough to run the relationship equally or not. If he doesn’t she’s going to be the ‘man’ by default. This occurs whether she approaches or not. FYI, one of my best friends is someone who approached me a year ago.

    Eda has a good post – ” . . . doesn’t acknowledge that lots of men also prefer more the traditional male/female roles in dating . . . aggressively pursue them.”

    There are many guys who prefer this traditional role. Agreed. Maybe it’s because it’s all they know. Who knows? My point is that, given the context of the thread’s theme (Should Women ask guys out) women should. My further point is that increasing numbers of men feel the same way, so those ‘traditional’ role guys Eda references are a shrinking number. That’s how I think it is. I think smart women will acknowledge this.

    Like I said, I agree with Evan – a guy to maximize likelihood of success should initiate, because that’s what women in general expect. Living in “the realm of what is more likely than not…”

    Where I part ways with Eda on empathy is this:

    “I do realize that the changing gender roles can be hard on men, but they are hard on women too. We are given two messages you don’t really need a man you can be self sufficient, but at the same time, we are seen as somehow lacking if we don’t have a man/SO. It’s my perception, that men who are single by choice or not, aren’t judged as harshly as single women.”

    My issue with the above is that the changing gender roles being hard on women. It is women who advocate for these changes and benefits. Now that they have what they want for the most part, it still seems not enough. If you choose a path that is hard on you, my answer is that is your choice. Grin & bear it.

    With that said, Eda further writes: “I just wish that we could help each other find solutions to the instead of complaining all the time. I, for example, try to show up with more feminine sensibilities when I am in a romantic relationship. I’m not perfect, but I try and that’s all we can do.”

    Amen. I agree. Here’s the rub – All too often, actually identifying the problems and issues is seen as complaining and little more. You cannot solve something until everyone agrees it is a mutual problem, not just a complaint.

    Where we’re at is an impasse in general – Women essentially ask “What’s wrong with men?” or “Where are all the good guys” or “All guys want is sex” (I’m simplifying a bit -I hope the intent is clear). I and many other male posters I read here reply that there are fundamental imbalances, inequities, double-standards, and inequitable laws that render the dating and mating game a less than 50/50 chance of winning. The response from most female posters is generally one of “Guys are complaining/whining” or “It’s still men’s fault”… Thereby keeping imbalance. See post #84 re: power & keeping it. Not all women do this I stress, but an awful, awful lot of the time. Hardly provides an incentive to be more understanding or work together.

    Ok, I guess I could’ve posted this in the understand opposite sex day thread as well, but I trust it makes clear where I’m coming from.

  8. 98
    hunter

    to vino,

    I agree with you, women are constantly testing a man. That is part of their defense mechanism. Women want to know who you are.

  9. 99
    hunter

    to vino,

    I am glad one of your best friends, approached you first……

  10. 100
    cinnamon

    vino,
    This part of your post, in the context of this thread and your remark about the dating hiatus, has kept puzzling me over the weekend:
    “FYI, one of my best friends is someone who approached me a year ago.”
    Is friendship better than relationship? Just to clarify, I mean relationship with a big R, not dating

  11. 101
    vino

    cinn,

    “Is friendship better than relationship? Just to clarify, I mean relationship with a big R, not dating ”

    The short answer – yes.

    The reasons are many, but the short answer is it’s not worth it to me. I was involved in a LTR for a long time. Lived together, did the whole thing. Here’s the thing – I don’t like compromising. I don’t like the thousands of little compromises that are involved with a ‘relationship.’ Been there, done that. Don’t want to do it again. I’d rather work, have my friends, dog and hobbies. I don’t need a ‘relationship’ to be happy.

    I’m in my mid 30’s – in very good physical condition, terrific profession, all my hair ;-) it makes no sense to limit my opportunities now. Sex? That’s easy enough to get.

    Most telling is that I haven’t made great choices about mates & relationships in the past. So I see no need to get into one for some time. Clearly, I haven’t learned enough. Or maybe I’ve learned too much. See below.

    Also, I’ve mentioned or read this on other threads here, I think – but there is simply no reason to be in a relationship as a guy (or any guy) where I’m at. I have the maximum amount of choices now. I don’t want kids, so have none of those pressures.

    Also, I’m pretty wary of most women. Sorry to say, but it’s true. There is a battle going on in society as represented in this board often. I think there are so, so many women who want money out of dating, that it’s very difficult to take them seriously. It’s also very difficult to reliably weed out those who are playing bait-and-switch on it also. Look at match… at least 2/3 of the women there (where I am) not only put down what they earn, but are brazen enough to put down that their ‘ideal date’ earns 2-3x what they do, is ‘successful’ ‘ambitious’ or other similar adjective. Ugh.

    The money thing’s an issue (and better explored on other threads) just because I’m not going to fund someone’s social life. I’d rather spend it on myself or hey, a novel idea…save it. Relevance to this thread is the point that they are equal, as I said above, and expecting someone else to pay you to be with them is a double-standard, narcissistic, and, I believe, whorish, without the benefit of guaranteed sex.

    Daily interactions are no better. I know 2 women who are good friends, both divorced by 30. One brags about how she ‘got every little thing she was entitled to’… and they both really only go out socially with doctors, lawyers and business owners. And they wonder why I blow them off at every turn…That’s but one example of many.

    Don’t get me started on divorce. Let’s just say there’s no reason on this planet for a guy who doesn’t want kids to marry.

    I could write tons more about this, but the thing is, I’m free, happily so. I have a great living, good friends, flexibility (may move overseas in a year or so). I don’t have to clear that with someone. I don’t have to worry about calling someone to tell them I’m going to be 30 minutes late, or deal with their family, or their moods, or anything else. It’s great. I can go to wine country on a whim, or camping, or whatever. And it doesn’t have to be camp Hyatt!

    You may think I sound cynical, perhaps. But I don’t think so. I think if you read these boards and other things in general, there isn’t a whole lot of incentive, societally or legally, for a guy to pursue ‘relationships’ earnestly. As I read it, the odds of success are considerably less than 50/50 (hell, CA’s divorce rate exceeds 70%; likely non-marriage relationships fail at the same rate or more). So why worry about seeking someone else for your happiness? Seek your own, and you’ll be freer, likely more successful as you move through life. I also think that increasing numbers of guys feel the same way I do, which I would find alarming if I were a woman of similar age.

    Oh, and we’re friends precisely because I’m honest with her.

  12. 102
    cinnamon

    I see. So here’s where we part in our attitudes…
    In a way, I’m glad I’m in Europe.

  13. 103
    vino

    “I see. So here’s where we part in our attitudes”

    I take it you don’t like what I wrote. Sounds like it wasn’t the answer you expected. It also touches on several other threads on here. Believe me, I wish it were more like the idealized idea of love & relationships we are imbued with. In the real world, it’s not. I’m just adjusting my actions to give me the most freedom in light of the world I see, objectively and subjectively. Is there a problem with that?

    Care to elaborate on what your attitude is?

  14. 104
    cinnamon

    Well, expected or not expected In the view of your previous posts, I kind of expected. It seems like you heartily encourage women to take initiative, but you’d push away a one which would take it with you.

    As I said, I have my experience with initiating contact and my stance is that it is better if the man takes the lead. My argument is a little bit connected with your reasoning but not quite the same. Giving the fact that a man has a lot of freedom to lose and a lot of responsibility to take on (and this is not such a modern phenomenon as it appears at this blog, I would say that the loosing freedom by men appears to me as one of the most universal in time, how should I call it, issues? connected with relationships) I would never pursue or agree to a relationship with a man who is not absolutely sure that this is what he wants. No matter how crazy about him I would be. I believe that any initiating or pushing whatsoever can only lead to problems later. I think if a man does not feel ready for a relationship, no power can force him to it. Better stay away. So I also do strongly support you in your dating hiatus. I granted myself a similar period a few years ago (only that I called it going cold turkey ) and it worked fine. Better than I thought, in fact. I will not elaborate any more on this, though.

    Bottom line is I do believe in relationships. I live in the same world as you do and I do have eyes. When I look around I see plenty of couples. When I have a chance to observe them for a while I always realize none of them has a relationship that I would find good for me and feel good in. But my conclusion from this fact is that this is how it should be. Because just like it is in my own hands how I shape my career, how I maintain relationships with those friends that I have and how I get new ones, so is it in my hands to find a man whom I’ll respect and who’ll respect me. I’ve met a few men in my life that I don’t think high of, but at the same time I’ve met plenty of great guys and I’m still meeting, so I’ve managed to keep my ideals safe and warm so far. I cannot imagine being with a man who is not at the same time my best friend.

  15. 105
    Selena

    vino–

    Feeling the way you do, why do you write so “extensively” on a dating blog? You are happy with yourself, and being single, and you don’t trust most women. So why do you spend so much time (while you’re multitasking) expounding on why men (meaning you) don’t want relationships? What purpose does it serve? Wouldn’t you be happier out enjoying your friends, your dog? You seem to be getting something out of being “anti-relationship” day after day after day. Why are you bothering? This wouldn’t seem to be the ideal venue for your personal views. A waste of time, one might say.

  16. 106
    Eda

    Selena,

    I think you may not have received the memo, but we are not allowed to ask the seemingly anti-dating/relationship men why they spend time contributing to this website. I’ve posed this question to several of them and I’ve gotten the smack down for asking such a personal question!

    The really weird thing is for me, at least, is that I actually can empathize with their weariness of dating/relationships because sometimes dating is sooooooo not fun. I honestly do have more fun going out with my good friends, playing with my dog and cats, and just doing things by myself. I too love the freedom of not having to check in with another person regarding what I want to do and when I want to do it. Yet, I still would like to have a special guy in my life — not for money, not for marriage, not for kids, but just to be a good friend and lover.

    As I have mentioned in another post, when I have wanted to complain that men only want sex, I realized that it’s because when I was really honest with myself, it’s because that’s actually what I was offering. This may not be the case for other women, but for me, when something keeps going wrong, I tend to look at myself to see what’s my part in it. I don’t only blame men. I think lots of men and women, don’t really want to take a look at themselves to see how they may or may not be playing a significant role in not getting what they want. Self reflection can be painful, but also liberating too.

  17. 107
    Selena

    Cinnamon-
    You wrote some things today that reflect my views as well. There are a few men walking the earth I’ve known that I don’t think highly of. But they are individuals, I don’t carry my feelings towards them over to half the population.

    I’ve also known some couples whose relationship I most certainly do not envy–I wonder if they stay together “just to be able to say they *have* someone”, rather than out of love and a genuine desire to be a part of each other’s lives.

    And I also feel to my core what you wrote: “I cannot imagine being with a man who is not at the same time my best friend.” If that isn’t true, what is the point? And why would I ever agree to be in a relationship with someone who didn’t feel the same way? Let alone pursue a man who obviously was not interested in such with me? It makes no sense in terms of my sense of self and my place in the world.

  18. 108
    Selena

    Hi Eda.

    Okay, so I got the memo, but chose to ignore it today. My bad. We apparently are much alike. I’m not discontent being single and after a breakup last year, I haven’t even been out there actively ‘looking’ (what a concept), so to speak. But as you wrote, “Yet, I still would like to have a special guy in my life not for money, not for marriage, not for kids, but just to be a good friend and lover. ” I don’t see such as a ‘need’, but rather an enhancement, don’t you?

    My own self reflection has led to the belief that yes, in some cases when I found I made poor choices in partners, it had to do with where I was with myself at the time. Funny though how that comes with hindsight. So blind to insight and all the violently waving red flags in the beginning. Sigh.

  19. 109
    hunter

    To vino,

    you said, “sex is easy to get.” Try to fill me(and like a million other men) in on that……be as direct and precise as you can……

  20. 110
    Hat Pines

    vino,

    if sex was easy to get, we would not have any virgins running around loose. I am a thirty-year-old virgin and it is my greaterst shame. I fear that people around me will find out and think less of me.

  21. 111
    sheseizereason

    Selena –

    I got the memo and still choose to second your questions to vino. It just seems weird to me that someone who claims he has so much going for him would feel the incentive to invest time in lengthy exposition against relationships …on a blog about dating and relationships. As I’ve previously pointed out, it doesn’t add up.

    With such a rich life, is spending time here the smart thing to do with your time?

  22. 112
    vino

    I’ve some thoughts. Under water at present. Will post soon.

  23. 113
    vino

    For Evan’s sake, I’m going to break this up into 3 or 4 parts, & post them a few hours or a day apart.

    Selena,

    While I am out of the game, so to speak, I don’t foreclose the possibility of altering my view in the future. I know enough to know I don’t know everything. I write more than most to be clear. Quick, nonsensical blurbs are not my way.

    cinn:

    Whether *I* would push someone away is a highly specific thing, not what a normal guy would likely do. Keep in mind that the shoes on the other foot most of the time (guy to pursue). I encourage someone of either sex to take initiative if they are interested in someone.

    I agree with your stance that re: initiating contact and it is better if the man takes the lead. Not because of any great psychological analysis, but because that’s what most women expect, and what most men are ‘trained’ to do.

    Sheseize wrote:

    It just seems weird to me that someone who claims he has so much going for him would feel the incentive to invest time in lengthy exposition against relationships on a blog about dating and relationships. As I’ve previously pointed out, it doesn’t add up.
    With such a rich life, is spending time here the smart thing to do with your time?

    You can think it doesn’t add up. However, what brought me here was a growing frustration about the whole process. I suspect most guys who read & post are in a same or similar boat.

    I’m not against relationships, just the current state of the vast majority of them. I think you see many guys expressing this. Good news is I can choose something else.

    One of the reasons I haven’t posted anything marginally personal until now are the above posts by Eda & sheeseize and the like. Not picking on either, but now they seem to intimate I shouldn’t post because I may hold opinions that are different, nay opposite from theirs. Last I checked, this board isn’t an echo chamber or an Oprah show, and different opinions were welcome. Also notice how no one talk about the subject matter any more, but whether vino’s against relationships.

    I read verbosity vigilance about such ad hominem attacks. I’m not going to make a big issue out of it, but this is an example of one. That’s why I don’t generally divulge anything posters who don’t agree want to go after me, not the substance of what’s said.

    More to come The good stuff.

  24. 114
    Eda

    Vino,

    I have never suggested that you shouldn’t post to this site because you have different ideas. As I wrote once before, I just don’t understand why you post when it does appear that you are not interested in dating.

    One thing I have realized is that some people just want to share their views and opinions without the specific intent of helping others do better in the dating world. And while that isn’t what I am seeking or what my intent is, it is as a legitimate reason as any other for coming to the website. So, I will no longer ask people who seem to be anti relationship why they are here. They are here because they are. Period. And even if I don’t understand their motivation, I just might learn something important anyway.

  25. 115
    sheseizereason

    V-

    I didn’t intimate an opinion about whether or not you should post. Even if I had, it certainly wouldn’t be to avoid opinions contrary to mine.

    I firstly don’t find facts about your personal life particularly relevant to the discussion. Secondly, because you self-profess to have such a wonderful life, it seems incongruous with the amount of time you spend here.

    My main point, in a nutshell, is that I’m having a hard time buying your press release about yourself.

    If you choose to take my observation of this inconsistency as a personal attack, then so be it.

  26. 116
    vino

    cinn: “Bottom line is I do believe in relationships.”

    I totally respect that. I think they can work, but the ways *I* think they can work most people would reject, if for any reason but that they are too equal. They include no cohabitation, no marriage, pay equally. I think that the dating/mating game is one where the odds of success for a guy aren’t even 50/50, let alone favorable. I base this on 3 basic ideas, societal expectations, sex, and the legal climate. The common thread through all of them is a lack of equality, or power imbalance.

    Societal Expectations:

    I wrote above, and other men have written about the existing double standards, so I don’t want to repeat all of them. Let’s just say I think it’s patently unfair to expect men (or women, if you’re a guy) to do things for you that you aren’t willing to do for him. Examples are above and in other threads, but include initiating contact, expecting men to pay for darn near everything, etc. (See Should Women Settle/Women Who Earn More Than Men/Where are Cute, Funny & others) If ladies can do everything men can do in society it necessarily includes the dating/marriage area also. I don’t think you can pick the rights you like and ignore the responsibilities that come with them. Equal means equal 24/7, not when you feel like it and it benefits you the most.

    Spurring this was a look at my Quicken & seeing how much $$ I wasted over the last 2 years (5 figures) on dating & what else I could have done with it. Not to mention my time.

    Going with the money theme also, I’ve reviewed this board and I think it’s pretty clear that women seek and prefer guys who earn more than they (no matter how much they themselves earn), and the more the better. It’s also very (most) important in the legal arena later. It’s better discussed in other threads, but I like some of verbosity’s writing on it (sarcastic yet logical). As I wrote above look at match.com, it’s shockingly prevalent. They why’s are better discussed elsewhere, but verbosity’s right it’s about options. By seeking guys who earn more, women have options. My issue is that guys (me) don’t. We’re to keep earning for her options. Simply put, where’s the benefit to me? I don’t see it.

    Particularly when it comes to marriage & co-habitation this sucks. You end up subsidizing someone else lifestyle, while simultaneously reducing your own. Nonsensical. This is a huge problem particularly in divorce re: alimony.

    The bottom line is that in the dating game, by having to do all of the initiating, number getting, calling, planning chauffering, and paying, guys are in a TERRIBLE power position, like a serf waiting on royalty. It’s completely unequal, and this lack of equality is no way to start any relationship that is supposed to be equal. No one’s saying men need to be in a superior power position, just an equal one. I also think that women on some level don’t respect a guy who does all of this doting. Again, where’s the benefit to me? Women who truly are equal and expect to give as much as they receive materially & emotionally are truly few and far between, in my experience.

  27. 117
    vino

    Eda wrote: “I have never suggested that you shouldn’t post to this site because you have different ideas.”

    – Didn’t say you specifically did. But you are aware that by bringing it up you do, in effect, indirectly say it.

    Eda also wrote: “As I wrote once before, I just don’t understand why you post when it does appear that you are not interested in dating.”

    – You actually touched on the opposite of why – “One thing I have realized is that some people just want to share their views and opinions without the specific intent of helping others do better in the dating world.”

    It IS helping others do better in the dating world. It just may not be helping according to your rules & expectations of the dating world. A different take, if you will. If one thing I write helps a guy reject a goldigger (for ex.) or a woman be clearer about her birth control practices (for ex.) to they can make better decisions, then it’s worth it. As I indicate above with more to follow, I think the expectations/paradigms and power of dating and relationships are out of whack with today’s reality, for both sexes.

  28. 118
    vino

    sheseiz:

    “I firstly don’t find facts about your personal life particularly relevant to the discussion.”

    – I do agree it’s off-topic. But I assume you read my previous postings, and was answering something cinn asked. As I see no guile in anything she’s previously written, I answered. Honest dialouge was positive, or so I thought.

    “Secondly, because you self-profess to have such a wonderful life, it seems incongruous with the amount of time you spend here.”

    – The amount I time I may or may not spend here I would think is not your concern. That type of comment is specifically why I’ve refrained from divulging any personal information. This is specifically WHY Evan has chastised people before and even began a whole thread on it. No mention on the substance of anything I said, I see.

    “My main point, in a nutshell, is that I’m having a hard time buying your press release about yourself.

    – Nice sarcasm. Not a press release. See above.

    “If you choose to take my observation of this inconsistency as a personal attack, then so be it.”

    – So be it indeed. Actually you made several ‘observations’ as noted herein. Nothing like attacking the messenger because you don’t like the message. Funny thing is you were notably absent from any discussion until someone offers something personal, then you show up like pigeons on crumbs at a pier. Curious.

  29. 119
    cinnamon

    vino,
    within a couple of days you managed to gain a friend and lose a friend now.

  30. 120
    Evan Marc Katz

    Faithful readers,

    You may notice a pattern.

    Intelligent opinionated male (Verbosity, Deathslayer, Vino) gets on message boards, expresses a thoughtful, if somewhat gender-biased opinion, gets insulted for expressing said opinion, retorts with multiple leeeeengthy posts, and the discussion gets hijacked into a personal back and forth that lasts for days and eventually drives the man off. Well, I like having male readers, I like having different opinions, and I would really appreciate it if you could tolerate your respective differences.

    Women: Feel free to disagree with men’s opinions by expressing the strength of your own views. Just lay off the personal attacks. Vino is here for the same reason most of us are here – this is interesting stuff, and it applies to men and women universally.
    Men: Stop responding at length to those who disagree with you. It only prolongs a pointless argument. Oh, and keep it simple, where possible. Everyone here should be able to make a point in a couple of short paragraphs without any infighting or acrimony.

    With great love and respect,

    The Management

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>