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Angelina, sweetheart. I’ve never answered this question before, and I’m glad you shared your story with me. It definitely hurts to have a long-time unrequited love and I’d be lying to you if I said that I never had the exact same personal experience.
So believe me when I tell you, everything you’re going through is very common — and, not only that, but this will NEVER ever happen to you again. Okay?
First of all, you have to stop beating yourself up over the outcome of your friendship. Other girls in a similar position would have read all of those signs in the same way. I can’t think of many guys who will tell you you’re attractive and claim to fantasize about you, who aren’t at least somewhat interested in something more than friendship.
Usually, when there’s smoke, there’s fire. In this case, there was not.
C’est la vie.
It definitely hurts to have a long-time unrequited love and I’d be lying to you if I said that I never experienced the exact same thing.
But there are some things that you could have been ignoring the entire time you were with him that led to this crisis. The first thing that I can think of is that he’s not some shy beta male who had a crush on you for ten years and was too embarrassed to make the first move.
I’m guessing that maybe 25% of guys are that way. Maybe more, but I don’t know too many men like that. Guys who are the way I was in high school — befriending all the pretty girls in hopes of getting close to them, only to discover that you’re in the friend zone.
But for all the other men out there who got the memo in third grade that if you find someone attractive, you ask her out, the easiest thing to do is spend time observing them.
If he asks you out, he’s interested. If he doesn’t, he’s not.
I’m guessing, Angelina, that your guy was in the top 75%. Which meant that if he liked you, at some point over 10 years, he would have let you know it.
So, looking back on your history, was your friend somewhat confident, charismatic, and funny? Did he have any other girlfriends? Any random hookups? Did he tell you about other girls and ask you for advice on them?
If so, I could have told you from the beginning that he saw you as just a friend.
Men see women as just good friends in four fundamental ways:
1. He’s not attracted to you at all — which makes friendship really easy to maintain, without all the sexual tension of the “When Harry Met Sally” friendship.
2. He’s taken and content in his serious relationship with someone else — which makes you off-limits, and even if he is attracted to you, he wouldn’t do anything about it.
3. He’s hooked up with you before — so the mystery and excitement are gone and you can just enjoy each other’s company as friends.
4. He’s a mature adult who’s had enough sex to understand that just because he’s attracted to someone doesn’t mean she’d be a viable girlfriend/life partner, so it’s best not to act on that attraction.
I can only make such a list because I am friends with women under all four of those pretenses — I’m not attracted to her, I’ve hooked up with her before, I’ve slept around and don’t need to do it again, and I’m married and not ruining a good thing.
So when you’re assessing future friendships with men, first ask yourself whether he’s the shy, awkward guy who may be repressing his true feelings for you.
If he’s not, he’s probably not interested in you and is one of the four men above.
Any questions?
jbv says
I agree with what Evan wrote. A friend admitted to her feelings for me a while back and while I was physically attracted to her (and, originally considering dating her when I first met her but didn’t because I was dating someone else and she had recently gotten out of a long term relationship) I decided to try to keep our friendship instead because I couldn’t see myself “married” to her or in a long term relationship. I didn’t see the point of ruining our friendship for the matter of a dating situation that might last a year or 2.
viola says
Raymond Bork says
Angelina,
I have a female friend. We once worked together and now we occasionally meet up for lunch and exchange birthday/Christmas messages.
What I have never said to my female friend is that I think she is ‘hot’ or that I fantasize about her. That would have definately given the wrong message just like your friend did to you.
You didn’t read the signs wrong, you read your friend wrong, as I’m sure most women would have done.
Did he get scared I just don’t know, I can’t figure him out. so I think you did the right thing in cutting him out of your life, and moving on.
You may be shaken by his reaction, but I hope that any interesting men you meet in the future will, (as long as they are emotionally mature) let you know what their real feelings are for you.
theonelaterthen says
Thank you for saying, “That would have definately given the wrong message..” So much advice I see men give these days is tempered with what seems to be the thought, well if she’s willing, that’s concentual enough, so I won’t let too much of the truth out that may cock block a guy I’ve never even met from this genuinely reaching for an understanding woman. Thank you.
I truely am very careful about leaning on others for support, especially men (and some women), because it might send the wrong message, that I want to be closer to them instead of the reality that I need assistance with something. I have a brother who is the best to me. He’s started a beautiful family, but is nice to me even though he doesn’t have to be. Plus I kicked ass at life and have enough money to help myself now. Probably because I had a strong, nice male in my life who gave me a foudation to fight off all these obserd bantifeministic pleas to give up my vagina to a greater complacency.
amy says
I think the 25% estimate of shy guys is way too high. That’s why women are always saying, “well, he does really like me but he’s too intimidated by me/too afraid to ask me out.” Besides, if he doesn’t ask a woman out – whether for shyness, lack of interest — it’s irrelevant; he’s not for you.
Angela says
how is someone not for them because they were shy? I’m assuming this logic stems from the unrealistic expectations we place on men, but just think would it seem right if I was telling some guy about how if a girl is too shy to ask you out then shes not for you? I don’t think so if anything that would make her a keeper compared to most of us I don’t see why we shouldn’t also appreciate the same shyness in men that we so miss from women. However if a women is interested in a guy the fact is regardless of how not shy she is she likely still wont ever ask the guy out as they have come to somehow believe that such a job is only for the men, I mean we cant expect women to actually risk rejection on the same scale as men now can we I mean that would be downright…….equal. GASP!!
Brendan says
Angela, I’m a shy man. Thank you so much for your reply. =)
Ivy says
Brendan, I think women know when a man is shy and might give more incentive or take more initiative if she is confindent and very interested in the guy. However, so many women are getting this false notion that “if a man is interested in you he will pursue you”, but people forget that everyone has insecurities and doubts and sometimes someone might be interested and not ask you out.
In Angela’s case it was a no-brainer, 10 years, he was charming and seductive, not shy and Angela needed to ask this guy sooner. I really have no idea why anyone would put themselves in that position for so long.
Marilyn Zink says
If you’re interested,just ask her out already, seriously.
If she’s interested you know where you stand. If not, then you’re not wasting anymore time.
rawr says
didn’t you get the memo? feminism wasn’t about equality it was about female supremacy and special treatment for women on top of getting any benefits men got for being men for themselves as well.
women in general despise shy men. that’s fine, your loss. the more substance a person has, the less you’ll find out about them in a short period of time, therefor any woman who won’t give a man the time of day is low substance herself, because she can’t comprehend what a person of depth is like to begin with.
Mad_Scientess says
I am super shy. I look like Barbie the bodybuilder and I have a Ph.D. in the hard sciences. So, NOBODY imagines that I am shy. I love shy men. I feel like they are the only ones that could possibly understand me. I am so tired of people thinking I am conceited when the truth is that I am painfully shy with men I am attracted to. I don’t know anyone that despises shy men. I hold them above all others. I understand how difficult it is first hand.
Lynx says
Mad_Scientess: you probably already know this, but here’s a tip if you’re seeking smart, shy men — engineers. Of course, if you’re seeking smart + shy + built, well, that last element may be a rarity!
Holly says
Raul T. says
I am male, and there is not one competitive bone in my body. Holly – I watch sports and do not root for a team, but for the gracefulness of the athletes. I work so I can pay the rent and put food on my table.I have zero jealousy of guys who make money – it comes at a cost. I don’t like challenges. I don’t like things just handed to me either. I disdain competition. It ruins friendships between men. It would be a lot simpler if women would initiate by handing over a piece of paper with their name and number on it. Just say you’re interested in the man and scram. This allows all men in: shy guys, introverted guys (never to be confused w/ shy men), in betweeners and introverts. As well as dudes who are scared because of the meToo movement. You have given them permission to show their interest. It increases their confidence. If men have that, they will show interest. Even the shyest guys.
theonelaterthen says
No. They’ve learned to behave shyly. TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU. All that motivates a guy to get closer to you is sex. You are a ‘keeper’ or whatever you want to call the opposite of getting rejected by that regular guy of ten years who was not your friend. A friend would do the opposite of letting you carry on a long-term relationship that isn’t satisfying to you on an interpersonal level. He might even have kept it from getting deep emotionally so you kinda felt like the way to get to depth was to go through that attraction stuff (and have sex with him he can only hope because he’s probably a little too evil to get sex through love maybe I don’t know) to get to depth. But since we’re not in our 20s anymore, you knew that was a dead end, which is just wise. You are strong and wise to cut off that “relationship.” I stayed after at a party to help clean up to see if this guy would finnally ask me out, since we were always around friends, but he’s a completey capable man.I don’t really think we need to help a man ask us for a date. When you knew what you wanted, you spoke to the regular guy about it. He can do it. But who cares about him, because he didn’t do that for you.somewhere along the way because of him convincing himself that sex is something he needs from random women who he nowhere near loves (you. Wouldn’t love be aweful if that’s what it felt like?), a man thinks he’s entittled to have sex with you. And I don’t know how you missed this, but all men want to have sex with you all the time. Sex is just not going to have anything to do with you detecting the one to priority love in life. That’s why he allowed himself to talk to you about physical attraction. Because if you have sex with him, woops not my bad he thinks, “I only was talking about physical attraction. She’s the one who messed around and fell in love with my encredible prouis (spelling???).” Where a woman is going, “how you gonna be attracted to me at all if not with my mind at least a little? That’s gross.. that’s like when teachers of jr high kids have sex with them because they’re tall enough to simmulate masculenity. I’ve known you for ten years. What do you think I’m talking about when I’ve heard you say you’re attracted to me?!” So, after a regular guy I know has remembered all the comments I’ve mad in our interactions to ask me about them in later interactions, and given me a little extra attention, he wasn’t asking me out, and the cleaning was done, so I grabbed up my purse and my sweater, was heading out for a smooth transition into knwing, “he’s just not into me” when he kissed me. He has since appoligized for being an uncoventional asshole, though. So there’s nothing else to do. I don’t go to his house for parties or to places he’ll probably be. He tries texts which immitate caring behavior. My better guess is that he thinks there’s an opportunity for sex (like there was when She finalLy got weak enough in When Harry Met Sally!). Guys/men who “keep it on the side” with you are opportunistic. Don’t listen to Brendan about what are his incapabilities. One of those men who would like sex with you is going to have his heart in the right place, and he’s going to ask you out. He’s going to ask you out on a dte and follow through with lots of dates for the rest of your life. That’s how you can tell he is capable of being the strong, wise man in your life.
Helen Schirmer says
I totally agree. Generally all this talk about men being insecure and fearing rejection as a reason to not ask you out is pure horse crap. Men are risk takers by both their hormones and what culture teaches them is ok to do. It is the way dating is setup to insure the man gets first pick to satisfy their sexual preference which strokes his ego. They will always stick their neck out to pursue if they like your looks, even though it means overlooking bad character and a boring personality in a woman. Many park their forsight and common sense on what is really important and valuable in a woman. Happens all the time and over and over again.
Mad_Scientess says
I think a lot depends on how attractive the man finds you and how well you take care of yourself. I have many many men tell me they find me intimidating and I believe them based on their actions. They watch and make occasional efforts to get close to me and I can feel how nervous they get.
Brenda says
Thank you for this! I am learning that a man can’t build attraction if I act like a buddy. I am learning to let him initiate contact, and let him lead if there are to be any moves.
I have known my friend, R, for 4 years. We dated for 10 months, almost every day, in 2009. We had a major falling out, and little by little, he has come back in my life. The night before my birthday, January 6th, after a few very positive dates, he started talking about sex and romance via text message. We texted for 5 hours while he asked me stuff like, “What makes you feel beautiful?” “What makes you feel like a goddess?” “I asked him what makes him feel beautiful, and he said, “When I am chivalrous like a knight and treat women like princesses.” Next he asked me if a woman can orgasm while riding a horse. Much more was shared on that level.
Because of past confusion in the lines of friendship vs romance, I asked, “Am I being flirted with?” That’s when everything fell apart. He responded, “I am not making romantic insinuation.” Among other things, I told him I felt like I was watching a romance movie, enjoying all the beauty of intimacy and romance. But when the movie ends, I am always left just sitting alone in a dark theater.
He asked, “Do you want to stop being my friend if it’s going to be nothing more?”
I felt weak, like a twisted, wrung out dishrag. He has led me on and let me down many, many times in 2009. He said later he just enjoys talking about romance, and he didn’t realize it would lead me on. I said, “Come on, you’re not stupid! Given our history, it should be obvious by now!” He said I was calling him stupid, because he claims he honestly didn’t know better. I believe he knows what he’s doing. It ruined my birthday, because I had thought he was leading up to a passionate night or at least some sort of birthday surprise.
theonelaterthen says
No.
Laine says
He’s playing games. Hope you moved on.
Helen says
The common thread I see in Angelina and Brenda 4’s experiences, as well as the experiences of many of my single friends who got burned in similar ways, is an erosion of basic dignity – of the ability to keep one’s mouth shut, and not feel the need to tell others exactly what’s on their minds.
Since when did “emoting” become a virtue? People who blather on and on about their feelings and reveal everything in their minds and hearts, with no regard for the other person’s interest or feelings, are insufferable. If you don’t have intentions toward another person, don’t tell them they’re hot and that you fantasize about them. Don’t ask them questions of a sexual nature. Period. Show some consideration for how the other person might take your words. For God’s sake, this seems so basic; yet this impulse to overshare that characterizes today’s society repeatedly takes over fundamental dignity and thoughtfulness toward others.
Angelina and Brenda, if you can, associate more with people who are thoughtful about your feelings – not fools who spill all their guts and are only thinking of themselves.
Julio Rodriguez says
The ability of a man to listen to a woman and comfort her is really the hallmark of an emotionally mature guy. And also to sit there and not be a fix it guy. Sometimes girls (even me as guy) need to rant. Just be present, affirm your partner’s feelings and that you understand them. They are smart. They can figure out their own issues. It works wonders. relationships are two way streets. Give and take. I think we have too many relationships where people are expecting a partner to fix them. On the other hand, I don’t believe we would pursue relationships if their wasn’t some primal need to makes ourselves whole and to repair some areas where our parents failed us. I spent a lot of years in therapy after a painful breakup, understanding that I needed to understand myself and my background more so that I could explain it to a future female partner in a way that allows he to help me without it detracting from her own growth. I am getting married in 4 months to the lady of my dreams, and it’s truly a healthy relationship. I am as concerned for her and she is for me. It’s a two way street.
FashionMaven says
Boy can I relate. I had a similar experience – not 10 years, but long enough… and it went in circles too. In the end, even though he was interested, he never made a move. After endless conversations where we went up, down and around about it, I just came to the conclusion that he just didn’t want to (and that’s if I’m to believe he was actually interested in me that way and not just some sick game he was playing). When we discussed it, he placed himself in the 25% camp – but since in the end, he STILL wasn’t going to pursue, all of the conversations and whatnot were just a huge waste of my time.
I think that regardless of WHY a man doesn’t pursue (whether he’s in the 75% or the 25%) – it just doesn’t matter. The upshot is that he didn’t and never will.
So if you find yourself in a “friendlationship” with a man – GET OUT. You deserve to be with a man who has the inner confidence and self-assuredness to actually ask you out no matter what his “fears” or “insecurities” may be.
I consider my “emotional” time to be just as valuable as my “physical relationship” time and if a man comes along and wants all of my emotional time and energy and he’s not giving me a real relationship back in return – I’m done with him. Period. All it does is keep you from a man who wants to give EVERYTHING to you – not just crumbs.
Jo says
Fantastic response!
CeeCee says
Thank you FM and Helen for your comments…. They were both so helpful to me. I have never been in a position with a man that played this game……. until now. Its been so confusing to me because it’s all so new! I’ve recently come out of a 2 year, long distance relationship that just got too difficult, due to the distance. My ex treated me with attentiveness, love, respect, and truly the way i feel a man should treat a lady, so that’s what i am used to. Now that I’m back in the dating circuit, this game playing is all too weird for me. I’m just so used to being with more mature men. … So I meet this new guy, he’s divorced has a daughter the same age as mine, goes to my church, has a successful career, but apparently doesn’t know the first thing about how to treat a lady. I even asked him if he looked at me as one of his buddies and his response was, “Well Im not sure yet, Im still trying to figure it out.” figure it out ?! What? Either you find me attractive and want to ask me out or you don’t!! We have gone to lunch once and one other very casual date and yet he’s been calling and texting me every single day for months now. I’ve got a very busy life so I have no problem moving on without his dead weight, but I kind of liked the guy and thought he liked me as well. Thank God I came on this site otherwise I may have been waiting around for that next date for a really long time.
Angie says
I sort of agree with Amy’s point that if a man can’t ask you out, you probably don’t want to date him. I do agree with some of Evan’s earlier posts, where you can flirt at a bar, etc and insinuate it would be fun to see him again.
Angelina, if this guy couldn’t ask you out in 10 years, do you really want him? Maybe he was 15 when you met (you didn’t say), but “shy” guys are really just insecure guys who usually act hostilely if they become your boyfriend. I myself and female friends get the reverse of this situation, where the “friend” really does like you:
My friend was college-friends with a guy for 8 years or so. He never expressed interest or made a move, but one day his guy friend met my friend… and they started dating. He threw a hissy fit, told both of them they were terrible people, etc, and both of them were confused as they had no idea the “friend” had interest.
I dated a guy once who had a crush on me while being my “friend” for a year. He made a move, once, and we tried dating but I wasn’t that serious about it, while he was declaring his “love” after a couple weeks. I was never able to get on the same page b/c I was never that attracted to him.
Evan’s list is a good list of reasons a guy wouldn’t ask you out, but I also think you should tell yourself that you want a partner that is on the same page as you from the get-go. It’s also possible your friend just liked having someone around who he knew had a crush on him, for purely the purpose of pumping up his own ego and wasn’t really a friend at all, hence the telling you he thought you were hot, etc, so you wouldn’t go off and find someone else.
amy says
Brenda #4 – why would you be with a man with whom you had a “major falling out with?” He sounds like such a tool with his “what makes you feel beautiful” questions. And by tool, I mean “jerk.” A guy who wants to ask you out, will. Period. I was NEVER EVER friends with a man that I was interested in dating, except high school.
Ruby says
Some men out there are incredible flirts (I’m sure some women do this too). For them, flirting is exciting and an ego boost, but they have no serious relationship intentions. In other words, they won’t be seriously calling, asking you out, and having physical contact.
I recently cut an ex out of my life who would periodically call me, act flirtatious and interested, even tell me he still loved me, but never followed through. Too frustrating – who needs it?
@Brenda
5 hours of texting? That’s a waste of time, if you are really interested in someone, and want them to ask you out. “Can a woman orgasm while riding a horse?” I think you must have better things to do than answer such idiotic questions!
Joe says
5. He’s gay.
Evan Marc Katz says
This post has already elicited multiple questions about your personal lives. I apologize but this isn’t the right forum for that:
evanmarckatz.com/blog/rules-of-the-blog
What’s not allowed:
1) Comments that hijack the forum to ask for your own personal dating and relationship advice. The only questions that get answered on here are the ones I post once a week. The comments section is for you to give your perspective on the original question; it is not for you to ask what you should do about the guy you’re seeing.
If you have a question you want answered, please ask it here:
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/contact/
The reason we have this rule is so the comments section doesn’t get taken over by YOUR issues and we can stay focused on the original poster. Thank you.
DMC says
I agree with what Evan wrote, and will add that dude sounds like kind of a dick for leading you on like that. As a guy, you expect women to do that sort of thing, but from a guy? It just seems more messed up to me….I don’t agree with the others who said any guy who doesn’t ask you out is unworthy to date. I’m a firm believer that if you want to willingly embrace gender roles like let the man do all the work, it’s hypocritical to claim you are his equal. If anything, you are treating him as an inferior.
I give you credit for taking the risk. In my experience, most women just sit around and let things happen.
Liz says
Evan, can there be a reason #5 why a guy sees you as a friend – Bad Timing? I know a man who seems to be showing a lot of the indicators of interest…much eye contact, some phone calls and texts. He always notices and mentions when I’m not at the weekly event where we usually see each other. But, he’s never asked me out. He got divorced 2 months ago after about 15years of marriage.
I’m not holding my breath or anything, but it seems odd that he seems interested but doesn’t take the next step. The guy is not shy, so I won’t be asking him out. I just feel like I’m getting a lot of mixed signals.
david says
Yeah, 25% of incredibly shy / beta male guys is waaaaaay too high….and TEN YEARS? I can’t tell if she’s been waiting around for him to bust a move for a decade or if they’ve known each other a decade and she’s had romantic feelings recently….
This is the gender flip of the guy who’s pining away for the girl who’s put him in the friend zone….and gee whiz — hopes and prays she will someday will see him as something more (that was me from age 13 to about 30 and a brief regression at 35)….
There is a friend who has been my friend — and often, best friend — on and off for a DECADE too who is majorily curvy, really pretty, full lips, incredibly young looking for her 42 years (she looks 25), but has a lot of emotional issues / scars that run deep and her meltdowns can pull you under like a riptide (hence the on and off periods) — she’s pretty, I’m in theory attracted to her, but just a really, really bad road to go down romantic relationship / long term wise….
Flower White says
All over the web with women of all races and colors I see the same question hear the same stories…he texts me…he stands me up…he calls me and we talk about sex..he didn’t text me for three weeks but I don’t want to give up on him because I care about him.
As a female I do believe many of us are simply delusional and refuse to see the signs and take him for what he is – a man who doesn’t want us as a romantic partner.
Men come into my life and expect me to do the romantic heavy lifting…chase them, text them, call them…have sex with them?? NOPE.
I’ve learned from Evan and other wise men and women -Men are not shy, they’re just not interested in you!!
K says
@Liz, if he just got divorced 2 months ago, why not just continue to get to know him and see if it pans out? Him asking about your absence is a nice indicator that he enjoys your company, but wouldn’t be a definitive indicator of his intentions. The more you see of him, the more he heals from a divorce, he’ll either ask you out or not.
Ileana says
I have never been in such a situation before, nor do I EVER wish to live something like this.
I agree with Helen at #5. ‘Communication is the answer’ – This gets thrown around so often, that many people don’t even know what that means and take it tooo seriously. People don’t need a diary nowadays. They can just blurt out what they think, without even thinking.
I feel so sorry for Angelina, but there is something not clear to me in this whole story. She knew this guy for 10 years and, at some point he started showing interest as mentioned above, or was this ‘i think you’re hot’ attitude there from the beginning?
However, wouldn’t it have been wiser for her to try and actually see where this whole thing was going, by using some small ‘tests’?
Sure, they were talking daily, but what would have happened if Angelina decided to get a bit cold with him? I’m not saying she should have been MIA for weeks, but maybe she could have reduced the time they talked/spent together. Instead of talking daily, wait 2 3 days and see what happens. Or maybe talk about someone else who might have been interested in her, in order to observe his reaction. I’m not saying that these things work all the time, but i guess that depending on the person/relationship, you can adapt and get some hints. If he didn’t mind any of these, then it would have been obvious that he was ok with just being friends. I don’t know if a man who nurtures ‘special’ feelings for a woman would just stay there and wait for her to get cold or for some other dude to commit, just because he isnt’t brave enough.
I am aware that all these require some tact and all, but I just don’t think it is right that she ‘allowed’ him so much power over their ‘relationship’… I’m not judging her at all, I only feel sorry 🙁
K says
I would have felt like Angelina if I had made that bold move. I know it has the potential to ruin my friendships so I tend to leave things as is and search for love elsewhere. But I have a friend who has done exactly what Angelina did on numerous occasions with a lot less reason. She comes from the school of leave no stone unturned. She’s still great friends with the last guy (even though I would have been mortified) and is now married to someone else. I think you have to know yourself though and know if you are the kind of person who can take a chance and be okay with either answer.
lawyerette says
Liz – he just got divorced. He’s not ready. Don’t get emotionally invested. He likes you, sure (the positive signals), but that doesn’t mean he won’t use you to get over the pain of his divorce. You deserve a guy who is ready and willing to give you the relationship you want. Be friendly to him, but write him off.
Diana says
I agree with Evan. I actually kissed a guy friend many, many years ago, but thankfully, he just laughed it off. That is how we were able to preserve our friendship. I am, however, in a great relationship because I read and applied the principles outlined in “Why He Disappeared”.
SnowdropExplodes says
I’m curious about that 25%-75% split, because it coincides with the “out of thin air” figure for the split of introverts-extroverts. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that an introvert is just shy, or afraid, or whatever “beta male” stuff and I find that rather annoying.
However, it turns out that when you run the statistics on people taking the MBTI test, you actually get marginally more introverts than extroverts, it’s a roughly 50-50 split; the low guess for their prevalence comes about because introverts, by the very nature of introversion, are less visible in society. It may be that “guys who don’t always ask first” have a similar statistical balance that is masked because of their tendency to be less visible (especially if women are taught to believe that men will always ask first – that way you never discover how many are the opposite).
What I will say is that 10 years is too long to wait: either by that stage you’re totally in his friend zone as well or he will have rvealed his hand in a negative way. I agree with EMK in terms of the signals to look out for in the OP’s situation. If you’re interested, there’s nothing wrong with letting a guy know but it definitely helps to be clear early on, because that way you both know where you stand and if it’s not reciprocated then friendship can develop normally (see reason #4 in the OP).
Alexa says
“Do men always ask out a woman they’re immediately interested in?”
If a man is interested in a woman, he will will ask her out for sure given he knows that he has a good chance with her.
Men don’t like to be turned down – and as a matter of fact, nobody does 🙂 – so the more he is certain he’s got a good chance with a woman, the more likely that he will ask her out if he is interested.
Jen says
Amen to Helen! Being thoughtful about another’s feelings is key, and highly underrated.
Good thing Angelina released the guy. He sounds like a real basketcase and remaining friends with someone like that will only waste her time and emotions.
The InBetweener says
+1 – Those words in red are KEY!! Other than that, why risk it?
Alexa22
“Do men always ask out a woman they’re immediately interested in?”
If a man is interested in a woman, he will will ask her out for sure given he knows that he has a good chance with her.
Men don’t like to be turned down — and as a matter of fact, nobody does – so the more he is certain he’s got a good chance with a woman, the more likely that he will ask her out if he is interested.
theonelaterthen says
No. The more he doesn’t even have to be sure of his own feelings or take any accountability.
The InBetweener says
Interestingly enough, the words never manifested as red. Well, the words in BOLD.
zann says
Very good (and kind!) advice, Evan.
Angelina, this guy sounds like an immature manipulator. I totally agree with Helen, in that there are people out there (both male and female) who assume that all others will find their every thought fascinating. Blah blah blah blah blah. Meanwhile, you sit waiting patiently, politely, thinking your turn for “sharing” is just around the corner. Only it never comes, because in the end — it’s all about them.
That is not a friend. In real friendships, it’s a 2-way street. You share, you inquire about the other person’s well-being, and then you shut up and listen. In other words, not only is this guy not boyfriend material, he also sucks as a friend. And not only does he not deserve you as a girlfriend, he doesn’t deserve your generous friendship, either.
I think there is a #5 Guy Friend Scenario, and that’s where the guy wants your friendship because he knows you’re at least somewhat attracted to him. So he throws out a hook once in a while to see if you’ll bite, to make sure he’s still “got it.” He doesn’t want it to be platonic, but he doesn’t want to be your boyfriend either. Do not give this guy your open ear or your friendship. He’s already misused it.
And as Evan said, no point beating yourself up about your query. After 10 years, good god, something had to give. You’re certainly not the first woman to ask for clarity and then regret she ever asked. Let it go. It’s time you devote that energy elsewhere, to yourself and to finding someone who can be a grown-up, equitable partner. Best of luck.
Oh, P.S. I also don’t believe the 25% statistic about shy guys, pining away for you but just can’t bring themselves to utter the words, “So, want to go out on a real date?” If they’re out there, I sure have never met one.
Evan Marc Katz says
Obviously, I made up the 25% shy guys statistic. But it’s based on my years of experience. There are MILLIONS of guys whose existence you don’t even acknowledge. They’re not great looking. They’re not charismatic. They’re not extroverted. They rarely, if ever, talk to women, much less go on a date, much less get laid. I’m not saying you should WANT these guys; I’m saying that they exist. If they didn’t, there wouldn’t be a multimillion dollar market for pick-up artists – one designed to teach men to have confidence with women. Just because you don’t notice these men in your day to day existence doesn’t mean they don’t exist. They’re probably home right now playing video games.
Adam says
You are very right Evan. When I was younger, I was part of the 25%. It took me an enormous amount of work, many, many hours of effort to where I am today. I’m certainly not a master pickup artist, but I have gotten better than I was.
And yes, women considered me completely unattractive and invisible.
Heather says
I can understand how Angelina feels, was in the same position about 2 1/2 years ago. A guy I had known for years, who’d attended my wedding, fought with me like cats and dogs about stuff, but overall was a good friend, started asking to hang out with me more often, talked to me more online and by phone. By the end of 2009, he’d made his feelings very clear: he’d always wanted to date me but for the majority of that time, I’d been engaged and married, and then met someone else not too long after my ex and I split. I had some misgivings about the situation (and I really should have listened to those misgivings) but I started dating him anyways. What a disaster. He became verbally abusive, rude to my friends and family, controlling.
I ended up breaking up with him after one tantrum too many in which he sounded just threatening enough to make me wake up and smell the coffee burning. But because so much damage was done, it ruined the friendship. I cut him completely out of my life, he blocked me on Facebook, we have nothing to say to each other. I totally misread this guy and fell for his lies, and boy did he tell me a whole lot of whoppers!
Thank you for posting this, Evan, it makes me feel like there are people out there who’ve been there and done that and can relate!
Lois says
yikes! Sounds like you dealt with that about as well as you could have.
what can you do when there are lots of big lies involved?!
You gave him a chance , it wasn’t good and you managed to get away.
I’m quite impressed by this short story.
Rhiann says
Bravo Angelina!! I had too cut of my ex (an ex-colleague, turn friend) out. I been through similar situation like yours. To make things worst, we flirted, hugged & kissed like couples do, only to realise that he just want to treat me as friend. After the “initial break-up”, I do intend to get him back but he was rather cold towards me. After I had “disappeared” for some time, he started texting and his text starts getting flirtatious. Since I had made up my mind to cut him off, I had not replyied to any of his text. The last text I receive from him is him wanting to invite me to his wedding. I can’t believed that he is that naive (knowing him, he’s not) to believe that we can still be friends. I don’t wish to be invited. Till now, I’m proud to say that I had not respond to his invitation.
BC says
Well, I certainly don’t think that a man *always* asks a woman out if he’s interested in her. That much we’ve pretty much establislished, for various valid reasons. What I do think in this particular case though is that the man in question sounds like an insecure, game playing jackass! He’s been friends with this woman for ten years or so, with what appears to be some undercurrent of attraction from both sides, he tells her how hot she is and how he’s fantasized about her?! Good grief, how much more blatant does it need to be that he’s either interested, or a total game playing waste of her time?
Frankly, this doesn’t even sound within the realm of normal behavior to me. I would be turned off mighty quickly if a man behaved this way towards me, and then never went so far as to ask me out or display some honesty and integrity in his intentions. They’ve known each other for years, for Pete’s sake, and are not just aquaintences. This is weird, IMO, just plain weird and dysfunctional. To the woman, I’d advise, please, pretty please, for your own sanity, move on and let yourself be open to a real relationship when the right guy does come along.
Androgynous says
Why do posters here keep saying that the friend “led her on”? He probably said all those things (she was hot etc) to make her feel better about herself after one relationship disappointment after another, and after she started questioning her attractiveness to men. This is exactly why it is tricky for men and women to be and stay “friends” if they are both hetero. Any kind of overtures might be interpreted the wrong way. Negotiating this minefield is why many men don’t even bother being “friends” with women unless they already share a history (or some sort of bond) and it is abundantly clear to both of them that romance is never on the cards (eg. exes, cousins or other close relations, friend of parents or children, teachers or students, parent or child figures etc). I don’t think a lot of men, if they are honest with themselves, will become and stay “friends” with women they are attracted to (sorry Evan). I don’t think these honest men will want to put themselves and their female “friends” (whom they are attracted to) in a position where things could get awkward and embarrassing – say she moves over for a hug and she feels that you feel something – you know what I mean.
The thing with Harry and Sally and Jamie and Dylan all those other man-woman buddy stories you see in the movies is this : These “friends” were already in romantic relationships but they just didn’t know it yet, hence the comedic element.
This is not to say absolutely that men and women can’t be friends if they are attracted to each other, except that it is very very very very very rare.
Daisy says
I had this happen to me a few months ago, ut luckily it only went for a week of intense emotions between me & the guy (full-on flirting, full-on sexting, and he specifically expressed his interest in me). Yet, he never asked me out while I already started to fall for him. Thank goodness my bestfriend warned me on this. Her words of wisdom that i would never forget is:
“Men’s words are all trash talk. Never believe them unless he actions them.” In other words, in Evan’s language it would be “Men who really want you will ask you out. Otherwise he’s just not that into you.”
Joe says
@ Heather #27:
Dating that guy wasn’t a disaster because it was a “friendlationship”, it was a disaster because he was an asshole.
DAN says
Way too much over analysis here. Whether the split is 25-75 or whatever, isn’t important. Whether the guy is flirting with you is not so important.
What is important is what is going on between BOTH parties. It takes two to tango. So he is flirting. What are you doing in response? It is heard to tell in the postings here, because there is not enough detail. It sounds like there is more analysis of the guy’s flirting than just getting in there and interacting with him to find out.
It sounds like there is some interacting, because of comments like “we talked about it” and so on. But if you are not getting clear answers, then the interaction is not effective.
Here is what is effective: tell him about your feelings. If he is a keeper and he is interested, he will respect that. If he is not interested but is just a good man, he will tell you where he is coming from. If he continues to be ambiguous, then he is exactly the type of guy you need to DUMP as EMK says. You wouldn’t want someone like that in your life even as a “friend.”
nathan says
A few of the women here have seriously skewed views of “shy” men. Insecurity can appear in anyone, regardless of how outgoing, charismatic, etc. they are. Furthermore, the way Flower White writes, you’d think all these guys are helpless and need to be handheld through the entire process. As someone who hovers in the middle of the introvert/extrovert scale, I’ve experienced both sides of the story. I have been the guy who makes the bold move, and I’ve been the guy who isn’t sure, and has waited a fairly long time to assess things. But I’m talking weeks or months; sure as hell not ten years.
Frankly, the whole shy narrative in terms of the OP’s letter seems like a red herring. Giving those kind of compliments and talking about fantasies with someone doesn’t strike me as the kind of thing a lot of shy folks do. I don’t really know what his deal was, but I do think the OP made the right decision to step away and move on.
Andy says
Woman should ask a guy out if she likes him. Rejection is a part of dating. Guys have had to face this problem for eternity. Woman want equality then suck it up and do it. Or give a guy a real hint at least, like suggest off-hand you do something together. If a guy is interested he will take that as a sign to ask you out. If that fails then he doesnt like you.
Michelle says
Exactly Andy, so it’s bad advice to women for a woman to ask a guy out–taking on a man’s job, being in their masculine energy, which ultimately is not attractive to a man. It’s the man’s job to pursue (and yes, face more rejection, that’s life) and a woman’s job to be receptive to that pursuit. Look at it this way, it’s rejection to a woman when a man doesn’t call her or drops off the face of the earth.
Men and women are EQUAL, but DIFFERENT. Nothing will ever change that.
Androgynous says
Daisy, in your post you mentioned the phrase “men’s words are all trash talk”. This seems to suggest that men are not being honorable when they say certain things. I do think this is an unfair generalization. Oftentimes men (and women for that matter) are put in a position where they can’t tell the truth, or where they feel they have the responsibility to say certain things. Cases in point :
1) when he wants to be “nice” in a situation that is awkward or not especially pleasant for either party – ie he wants to break up because he really can’t stand you but of course he can’t tell you that to your face.
2) when he feels a responsibility to help you or to make you feel better about yourself – ie you are seriously depressed and think you can’t attract boyfriends because you think you are “ugly” and he says no, no you are not, you are beautiful (which you may or may not be in his eyes).
Sometimes he makes a mistake and says certain things which, on reflection or hindsight (or maybe when he is sober) he realises he shouldn’t have said. But then it is too late and he does not want to appear stupid or to revisit the issue by correcting himself to you – eg. you are both married and he drunkenly confesses an attraction to you.
This is not to say that there are many many occasions where men deliberately and knowingly tell untruths for nefarious or less than honorable purposes. Anyway, you get the picture………
starthrower68 says
Always a good reminder. This is why I don’t like initiate contact with guys online. If they were interested after looking at my profile, they would have contacted me.
Heather says
@ Joe:
Well yes, the guy I ended up dating was a total asshole, it just took me awhile to figure that out. I really should have listened to the warning signs. My problem in the past with dating, was fearing that my divorce would leave me jaded and bitter and that I should give men a chance. Now I know better. Good point there.
@ Andy #36
You obviously haven’t read Paige Parker’s “Dating Without Drama” blog. In there, Ms. Parker talks about just that, how we women are taught these days to chase after men, and then we find out in the end that….wait for it….most of you guys are actually turned off by that. If a guy can’t be bothered to ask me out or get my number again, well then I guess we’re not going to go out. Just ask my boyfriend, when we first started talking online, he offered his number and in return I sent him mine, and I told him that I didn’t call men, and that if a man wanted to see me, then he needed to ask me out. 20 minutes later, he called, and we have been together ever since. There’s no way I’d ever ask a man out if I am ever single again. Yikes, that’s just a recipe for disaster.
Blonde says
I can completely relate to Angelina, I’ve been there before. I think another way to think of it is this, if you didn’t have any feelings for the guy, how would you interpret his actions? For example, some of my guy friends compliment my looks and I don’t give it a second thought because I have no romantic feelings towards them (and it also seems completely platonic from their side). However, take the same guy, same words etc, and add in feelings on my part, and you’ve got a whole different cocktail. As women we like to read into things and our perception (like men’s) is very dependent on our position on something. See what I mean? If the guy had an inkling that she was interested and still said thi stuff, I think it wasn’t very considerate, however he may have just thought she was an awesome female friend who e could be that open with. What I learned from my experience is to b really aware of yourself and your emotions, the primary person for looking out for yourself and trusting, is you.
@Ileana, I like your approach a lot. If I had paid closer attention I would have noticed these clues. But yet I still felt the need to oice it (as EMK put it in one place I read, you can lay it out if you’re not gaining from the situation and he doesn’t follow, you made the right move in cutting him off. For 22 you’re lucky to be ahead of most at that point! And I agree (from an earlier post of yours) men in Europe do seem to have a very different approach when it comes to pursuing women.
Tina says
To DAN #34
Why I have to tell him about my feelings? If he is a smart man, he will realize the fact I’m in love with him after my actions.
To nathan #35
I agree that the insecurity can appear in both women and men. Of course there are shy men, just because you men also are human beings. You meet some beautiful and nice woman and sometimes you feel this insecurity and shyness.
To Andy #36:
No, women shouldn’t ask men out. It is still the men’s job to pursue and ask out. The women only have to encourage the man they like, it’s that simple.
Andy says
@ Heather #40 & Tina #42
Its funny how women take one rejection so deeply to heart, yet expect men to deal with the constant rejection when asking woman out. And women wonder why men dismiss them so easily??
So a woman feels special because of the flirting, flattery, and etc she gets from a guy, but men just do those things as part of the “chase”. Men have been conditioned to take emotions out of the “chase” so rejection stops hurting. But this means a guy can chase a woman on minute, then dimiss her a second later without much after thought. Woman get angry about this but its what men are expected to do right??
If woman want things to change, they will have to accept doing things differently like taking a risk and asking a guy out.
Heather says
@ Andy 43,
Oh, Andy. I’m sorry that you’re so angry about this. But truth is truth. I have tons of male friends who complain about women coming onto them, chasing them, etc. etc. The truth is that you men are WIRED to chase. It’s biology, plain and simple.
If it bothers you that much, then I’d suggest that you date women who do want to chase you. But please don’t come back here and complain that “you women are all psycho.” Talk about a double standard.
There is no way, at all, period, that I would ever, ever ask a man out. Period. And trust me, I used to be a girl who would chase guys. My dating life got a WHOLE lot better, and less dramatic, when I stopped that behavior.
BC says
Heather @ 44, I totall agree with you. Its been my experience as well that men just really do love to be the ones pursuing in the initial stages of a budding relationship. Of course they want positive signals, that’s just common sense, but they are rarely open to or enthusiastic about dating a woman who chases them, and that’s just the biology of it, plain and simple. I’ve never asked a man out, and I never will. And I’ve had no problem over the years in getting plenty of guys to chase me. I like being chased, they like the thrill of the chase and all is good. 🙂
Michelle says
Heather and BC, you are both 100% right. #37 talks more about masculinity and femininity–important concepts that aren’t going to change. We just can’t mess with biology like that.
Heather, you sound like me! When a man asks for me to call him, I say “I don’t call boys, but here’s my number.” They totally get it, and I think like being ‘challenged’ like that..it makes them step up, and makes them feel more masculine. And when a man feels masculine, he has more passion for himself, for the woman and for life.
Joe says
So ladies, to chase or not to chase–that is the question:
If you’re on Match.com, are you just sitting there passively, waiting for guys to click on your profile and hopefully be interested enough to message you? Or do you go ahead and wink and/or message guys? If you’ve done both, has there been any difference in your success rate…I guess you could quantify by how many dates have come from one method vs. the other?
Andy says
@Heather #44
No anger on my part, Im just being realistic. The point is that when a woman chases a man they emotionally invest too much and to soon. Men dont do this and it makes life easier. Be a man or woman, the idea is to never “chase” because if the other person is really interested you wont have to chase.
I just think that women need to take a page from the mens playbook and take rejection with a grain of salt and move on. Woman toil and beat themselves up too much wondering if a guy is interested in them. And you know what guys know this and prey on it. The easiest thing to do is just to be direct and get it over with.
Most of what EMK writes about is changing and controlling what you can, which is yourself.
Heather says
@ BC and Michelle,
Exactly! My boyfriend said that when he saw my email that I wouldn’t call guys but gave him my number, he realized that if he really wanted to meet me, well then he’d better step up to the plate. And he did. I’ve had guys get very turned off by my chasing them, initiating dates, etc, in the past. About a year and a half ago, my really good girlfriend had me start reading Paige Parker’s “Dating Without Drama” blog and she talks alot about that, about how we need to stop chasing down men, because we cause ourselves too much drama and pain when we do that.
Absolutely, we should show positive signs of mutual interest and be encouraging, but the next time I decide to “man up” and ask a guy out, will be a quarter past….never. 🙂
DMC says
I find it a little shocking how most women sort of imply asking the man out is beneath them, or they are too good for it is some way. Maybe you will get all the dates you need, but if you are not exploring all possibilities, and we can surmise being on here, your love life isn’t exactly where you want it to be, you really have no room to complain.
Evan Marc Katz says
Asking out a man isn’t “beneath” women; it’s just largely an ineffective strategy, since most confident, desirable men will do the asking out if they’re interested.
SS says
I asked men out in the past. Not much happened beyond one date, if that.
The two men who became my boyfriend? They asked me out.
The man who became my boyfriend and then my husband? He asked me out.
That’s enough proof for me about what works.
Jules says
@Joe #47
I have initiated contact with men online (emailing) and have gotten dates out of that approach (i.e. the man subsequently asked me out). But the few times I have done this it has never lead to a relationship. In my experience, it sets up a weird dynamic. I think the men figured hey, what the heck, she’s obviously interested in me, this one will be easy, and they had nothing to lose. They never followed up, or made any further efforts — either they weren’t interested or they were waiting for me to continue initiating things. I was always left wondering if they went out with me because they were truly interested, or just hoping to get laid.
I no longer initiate contact. I will view someone’s profile so I show up in their lists, but nothing beyond that. If they are interested, they will contact me, otherwise they are not.
DMC says
@ EMK
Maybe it’s not the strategy but the strategists….but I digress. If you look at several of the answers giving, you will see more of an entitlement mentality than a master-general plotting.
One of the challanges it looks like you have is a bit of latent arrogance that women show – they seem to want what THEY want at all times and think dating should work around that. To your credit, I think you call them out on that a good deal of the time.
DMC says
I think Andy put it quite well in #43, and was subsequently attacked for it. Great example.
helene says
In my next life I’d like to BE a man so I can do the chasing and asking out – sure beats all the hanging around wondering if the phone’s going to ring…. But in THIS life, where I’m a woman, I do wait for men to do the asking – not because I’m scared of rejection, not because i don’t want to just go ahead and ask men out but because i am convinced it is ineffective, as Evan says. This approach also applies to other area, particularly sex – all that proactive “tell him what you like in bed, he’ll be delighted” stuff is just nonsense. Men don’t want to hear what you’d like them to do in bed, they want to hear that you like what they ALREADY do in bed.
K says
@Joe 47, I don’t ask guys out in real life. But online I do contact men. I don’t ask them out though. I think online it’s harder to encourage a than it would be in real life. I have gotten fairly similar results whether I contacted them or they contacted me. But I’m not chasing or asking out. A simple “hey what’s up” type of message that would be akin to smiling and saying hi to someone in real life. But I do agree with Jules, that the men who do contact me, actually write me emails with effort tend to also put more effort into dates. They are the ones that seem to be really excited that they get to meet me.
DMC says
@ Helene – you are WAAAYYYY off the mark. Sure, men like positive feedback on their performance, but it’s not they don’t want to be adventerous, it’s just they generally don’t want to hear something “let’s try this thing my ex and I used to do”
First off, do you women think men asking you out is highly effective from a success rate standpoint for most men?? I see women citing a couple failed attempts and throwing the baby out with the bath water. Most men that aren’t shy get shot down DOZENS of times. And let’s not forget as a man, we are FAR more likely to run into women who will be extremely unkind in rejection or do it for some sort of ego boost at your expense than women ever are likely to encounter from men.
Also, like Andy pointed out in another post, if you are coming on way too strong, and talking about getting married or meeting his parents the first 5 minutes, of course that’s not going to work. I think it’s more to do with women not developed their approachign skills vs. this biological urge you all keep citing. I’m sorry ladies, but your excuses sound weak.
Heather says
@DMC,
Let’s get a couple of things straight. I do not think asking men out is “beneath me”. Obviously you didn’t read what I wrote, in which I stated that a dating blog, and EMK has even backed this up, that asking men out has proven ineffective. That is not an entitlement attitude.
Second of all, I do not expect men to work around me in dating. For you to assume that is just out of line, plain and simple.
I’m very sad to see so much anger coming from you in your postings. I would wager that the vast majority of the women posters on here are not the arrogant beings that you make us out to be. If we’ve chosen not to chase after men, well so be it. As I suggested to Andy earlier, maybe you might want to go somewhere where women will be interested in chasing you.
As a matter of fact, judging by your postings, there seems to be an entitlement attitude on your part, “Well why should I have to do all the work, she better man up and do the work or else.”
I stand by what I said earlier. Men are wired to chase, it’s in your genetic makeup to do so. We women are wired to BE chased. There’s nothing wrong with that and no judgment in that, well until you started accusing some of us for “attacking” others for stating what we feel…..
DMC says
@ Heather
Please allow ME to get a few things straight for you:
1) I did not call you out by name. I’m not sure if you have a Guilty conscious or my comments hit a nerve, but you are WAY overpersonalizing them, especially the part of men dating around you. Actually, you misunderstood that point. I’m saying that women are often not flexible and willing to try new things. It would be like saying you were starting a diet, but you still are going to eat all the cookies and ice cream you want. You would think dieting should work around your refusal to give up that junk food.
2) You ignored my whole point about “effectiveness”. Maybe it’s not an ineffective strategy, but just that you (and other women who have the same complaint) are not good at it yet, from lack of practice/correction
3) Sorry, but the ad hominem attack to say I and Andy are angry simply b/c we don’t agree with you is flimsy. I don’t think I said I want women chasing me or anything threatening like “or else!”. Please don’t project things I didn’t say. And please re-read you quote about entitlement mentality – how the heck is it feeling entitled if you are talking about taking a step toward equality?!
4) This “wired to chase business” is funny. Not saying I fully disagree, but I have a sneaking suspicion if your man cheated on you and I said “he’s wired to spread his seed” you would not be accepting biology as a good argument.
BC says
DMC @ 50, surmising that eveyone who reads this site and enjoys contributing and learning from the conversations has a less than satisfactory romantic life is not an absolute. I have been happily involved with my guy for several years, but I dated a lot and enjoyed *most* of my prior relationships, even the ones that weren’t the forever kind. We all make mistakes, men and women, but hopefully every relationship we have in life, however long or shot lived teaches us something.
As for reading these forums, I just find it very interesting, the dynamic between men and women, whether I’m happily loved up or not. 🙂 And althoughI certainly don’t think I’m *beneath* asking a man out (I’ve never felt I’ve HAD to, thank goodness!), but I enjoy letting a guy feel like a guy, and pursue me. Evan is dead on when he says its largely ineffective for a woman to take away a man’s masculine edge by not allowing him to initiate a date. As Heather and Michelle as well as myself have said, in our experience, confident men will take subltle signals of interest and ask a girl out if he finds her intriguing and attractive. Simple as that really.
AllenB says
The truth is that you men are WIRED to chase.
Men might be wired to pursue. All people are also wired to be violent when afraid, pee wherever it is convenient and doesn’t get into food, sleep whenever we are tired, and have sex when the opportunity presents. Letting that wiring dictate behaviours isn’t attractive.
This ‘men are made this way’ and ‘women are made that way’ explanation for what are effective dating behaviours for some people in some circumstances is way overused.
Saint Stephen says
@Heather and DMC
There is nothing wrong in men asking out women and vice versa.
As EMK previously pointed out, it’s just a matter of what works in the long run. Nothing to do with entitlement on either genders.
Personally, I’ve always done the asked out on women that i was fairly interested in, but still made sure i perceive the signs to see if I’m getting sufficient green light before approaching them to express my desires. In that way even if the signals were misunderstood on my part, the rejection would be mild.
To be frank, I’ve been turned down at times when i thought the lady was interested based on the signals she gave me. Some say they just want to be friends and others would even go as far as giving me their number but wont/hardly answer calls. The dating and relationship scene is all messed up.
My question is, why would a woman be giving a guy the blue signals if she isn’t interested in a relationship? Isn’t that the same as what the guy in the OP’s letter is doing?
starthrower68 says
As a GENERAL RULE it works out better if the man initiates and pursues. If I have to do the chasing and pursuing, I don’t feel valued. While some fellows on here might be the exception, the exception doesn’t disprove the rule, to co-opt an oft used phrase by Evan.
DMC says
For the record, I agree that there is a more natural way in men asking women out than vice versa, and personally have gotten far more dates by asking then waiting around to be asked. I was simply pointing out the attitude some of the women conveyed. I know it’s not popular to point this out, buy many women have a bit of a misandric superiority complex when it comes to men and dating. Why do you think even Evan has difficulties with some of his female readers? They are stubborn and feel b/c they want something, it should be that way. Men, by and large, learn at an early age life is not going to be like that for them. I was simply pointing out preferential treatment women seem to think is their birthright.
Saint Stephen says
starthrower68 Said;
If I have to do the chasing and pursuing, I don’t feel valued.
And the guy pursuing you, how is he supposed to feel valued?
The reason men pursue women is because we know if we don’t, you women won’t and in that way we all wind up single. You women shouldn’t make the mistake of thinking that we (men) enjoy chasing (women) and getting rejected nearly all the time.
Evan Marc Katz says
Stephen, he feels valued by GETTING the girl. It’s not her job to pursue him; it’s her job to be receptive to him. For all you guys who say that women and men are not the same, why is it so hard to understand that women want to feel valued? Once you guys get this, you can be better boyfriend and better men. But if you truly think that it’s HER job to pursue you, HER job to call you once you’re together, HER job to make plans, HER job to initiate sex, HER job to ask for commitment, you’ve got another thing coming.
Listen to her. Make her feel safe. Let her know you’ll be there the next day and forever after that.
That’s what women want. Stop focusing so much on what YOU want.
And yes, this is EXACTLY what I tell women to do for men.
Andrew says
sounds like it’s only normal and natural for the man to do all or most of the work in dating and relationships, it makes me wonder, what work do women have to do in dating and relationships?
Androgynous says
Saint Stephen,
As you may already know, women are very complex creatures and do things for a multitude of reasons. Why would a woman feign interest ? or else give the impression of interest ? thousands of potential reasons, some being :
– she has been socialised that way, to always seem receptive even when she is not that way inclined
– she is after an ego boost and playing a game with a man to see if she can hook him
– that’s the way she relates to everybody and the man has misread the signals (which admittedly can be hard for anybody)
– she is playing hard to get to see if you will continue to persist
– she knows she is attractive and like to dump men for sport the same way little boys crush insects
Men, on the other hand, are generally very very clear in showing interest/disinterest. They don’t like wasting their time playing games with women they are most definitely not interested in. This is not to say some men are not flirtatious and enjoy female attention by putting out signals that they may or may not act on. However I have found generally that even these men do not flirt with women they are not attracted to. They may flirt with a group of women one of whom he finds attractive. However, he will most definitely will not flirt one on one with a woman he does not find attractive. He may have a polite conversation with her, but he will definitely not flirt.
As EMK and other posters have pointed out countless times, it is quite clear if a man is interested or not. Even if a man is interested, he may not always act on it for a number of reasons (being poor, unemployed and/or living at home with mum and dad are two of the most common ones I know of). If a man is already taken, he may be attracted to, as opposed to interested in someone. “Interested in” assumes the ability or freedom to act on that interest.
In Angelina’s case, I doubt her male friend would have remained friends for 10 years and not busted a move on her if he was interested. I doubt if her friend was giving her signals because as I have opined, men do not generally do that sort of thing. I think Angelina read more into his words and actions than he intended. Also, men generally don’t give signals. They act rather than give out signals for women to act on.
AllenB says
When men do those things for her to feel valued it becomes HER job to tell us we call too often and HER job to say “no I can’t/don’t want to” HER job to push us away, HER job to say “give me space.” I see a woman lose interest in a man who is doing all the right things, and expresses it passively instead of directly. The pursuing man either backs off and then when her mood changes two weeks later she complains he pulled a slow fade and didn’t really love her, or he ramps up and pretty much guarantees her mood won’t change since she is constantly put in the position of denying him. Unclear communication where the woman is not to ever pursue at all guarantees every relationship withers once the woman goes through a couple of bad weeks. There has to be balance.
Saint Stephen says
Evan, I’ve already stated that is normal for men to do the chase. Not because men enjoy it but because it’s an effective strategy. While is true that men feel valued in getting the girl, how often do they get the girl? If men were nearly that successful the pickup industry wouldn’t be thriving. In my previous comment i did mention that i do the chase, but still i would love it if women did pursue me for a change. I’m sure every man would love that, wouldn’t you Evan? Oh common…!
Secondly, I’m a bit surprised by your comment. In the other thread you criticized we guys for stating that men and women are different but you come here only to reinforce the point we seem to be making in other threads.
You said women want to feel valued but you turn around into pillory guys who expressed their unwillingness to value a woman who’s been around. Apparently, you think is right for women to want feel valued where is suits them and discard that feeling when it doesn’t. I seriously don’t get it.
Androgynous
Thanks for the response.
Michelle says
#47 Joe, I’ve done a lot of on line dating. I can’t recall one time where I had success when I first contacted a man. They may answer, and we may chat, but it doesn’t go beyond that. The man I’m dating now I met on Match, he winked at me first.
This is where it’s tough to be a woman, we have to sit back and WAIT for men to pursue us, we can send signals, but ultimately, it’s up to him to decide if he feels ‘it’ for us or not…we have to have patience, which for a lot of us, is a tough thing. It’s the right thing though.
AllenB says
He e-winked at you first? Who actually wrote to the other one first? Winking is the real life equivalent of making eye contact. If THAT is what constitutes pursuit, then I retract my statement above. Heck, I will happily wink at 100 women and then let them take it from there. Sorry, if you actually responded to something so weak, then you made the first move and had success with that.
DMC says
Even, with all due respect, your “why is it so hard to understand women want to be valued” is a red herring. That is NOT anything men have disputed, that I’ve seen on here. Also, that is a very broad comment that almost has no meaning. If person A is happy making other people happy, and person B is happy crushing other peoples souls, we wouldn’t claim they are the same since they both want to be happy!
Now I fully embrace your notion that partners should be generous to their other half, but it should be equal, unless you don’t feel men and women are equal. Your comment suggests men are dating beast of burdens and women are supposed to just sit back and reap the benefits. I can see how one could think that, but it doesn’t mesh with the whole “equality” thing.
Michelle says
#69 AllenB, there are stages to a relationship, so I’m not sure which stage you are referring to.
It’s up to the woman to be receptive, to continue to show the man she’s receptive. It’s not up to her to pursue. As soon as she starts pursuing, believe me, your sexual attraction will wain. She would be displaying too much of her masculine energy, and what man wants to be with a woman with too much masculinity? What’s the point?
Women are like waves emotionally…that’s just the way it is, it’s not going to change. We’re looking for strong, masculine men that can confidently survive those waves. We will constantly be testing you as a man. We’re looking for our men to hang in there with us, to diffuse the situation with humor, to give us a hug, to pick us up, swing us around and distract us.
A good book to read is by David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man. I read it and it helped me to better understand, as a woman, why I do the things I do and what I’m looking for in a man. (Also helped me understand why I challenge my young adult son in the way I do.) We don’t expect men to be perfect, but to adjust. My new boyfriend didn’t do so well during my last ’emotional’ wave, he’s anxious to do better the next time–that’s very attractive to me and wants me to continue to work on our relationship. If he threw up his hands and said, I give up, that would have been very disappointing and I would have lost attraction for him.
Having said all that, it’s incumbent upon men and women to choose good potential partners. Partners who are mature, responsible, of good friendship ability and of good character. That’s a whole different conversation.
Ray says
All relationships are a ‘dance’. I agree that the original poster had reasons to believe her friend might have had other intentions… and I agree 100% with Evan’s assessment to check out how her friend interacts with other women… AND talks about other men too, by the way.
I have many male friends. Some have accused me of leading them on or giving them mixed messages simply because I agree to share time with them (we split the bill or I at least offer… everytime). Well, I do that with every man (offer to split the bill). Even if I”m interested in something romantically. It’s 2012 not 1912, after all.
I’ve asked out men who I percieved were interested in me, and it has never worked. As we speak, I’m having an ‘extended conversation’ with a couple of male friends whom I’ve danced around the maypole with on and off for years. One of them is, for certain, is a very shy guy. One of those people though, that once you get to open up, is incredibly witty and smart. I’m attracted to him, but I”m not holding my breath either.
As comfortable as I am with rejection/asking men out… it simply isn’t effective.. What IS effective is seeking clarification. Evan gave a few examples (observation). There are other ways to do this that preserves everyone’s integrity and self-esteem. Asking them probably doesn’t hurt. What you DONT want to do is blame THEM for your perceptions. That is, if you like having male friends. I do… so I’m ok with the vagueness.
Zaq says
#71 Michelle
It’s tricky. This is not black and white. In the real world women are not passive. They give subtle (sometimes not so subtle) signals that they are willing to be approached by a man. Without that, it is going to be an uphill struggle to develop rapport, so I agree with SS that direct approach is very difficult. In the real world, approaching women who show no signs of being receptive is only rarely going to work. Unfortunately on line, there isn’t much option.
A direct approach by a woman runs the risk of being seen as too aggressive, which from a man’s perspective is an unattractive trait in a woman.
So I don’t agree with Saint Stephen here. However a wink should be fine.
I have had women I don’t know come up to me and offer sex and I must say my immediate reaction is to be unsettled. Kind of lets forget about the game and just play the ace card.
Isn’t there a tribe in Africa that as a test of manhood requires a boy to walk directly up to a lion. The lion not used to potential meals being so aggressive becomes confused, gets up and walks away.
nathan says
The wired to chase argument is evolutionary psychology propaganda. Furthermore, this whole men pursue/women are receptive narrative is the story of patriarchal gender roles. It may be currently more “effective” for women to play a more receptive role, however I’d argue that the level of effectiveness is dropping by the day as our society changes. Many of the women who comment on here demonstrate a confidence, assertiveness, and willingness to take the lead on arguments that was rare amongst women of even a few generations ago. And frankly, the experiences I have had, as well as those of friends, family, and others I have talked with online about dating show a diverse pattern of approaches. This is true when it comes to who makes the first move, all the way to how emotions are expressed, who initiates sex, and even who asks whom for long term commitment and/or marriage.
None of this negates what several women have said on here about never having any success when they have made the first move. Clearly, plenty of men still have hangups about women being more assertive, especially around dating. Although I doubt any of the women have the numbers of rejections, missed signals, etc. that men tend to have, so I have to wonder if women who are more persistent end up eventually having some success.
In the end, though, it seems to me that if the approach you are taking isn’t working, it’s best to experiment. If you’re a woman sitting at home waiting for a call or e-mail all the time, I’d suggest that the story you have about men and what they are “supposed” to do isn’t helping you.
Evan Marc Katz says
Nathan, what you’re not acknowledging is this: it’s still a LOT more effective for women to “do nothing” with men. It’s the crux of my book “Why He Disappeared” and it’s the basis for thousands of successful relationships. So unlike the 1950’s neanderthals who have active problems with assertive women, I have no problems with them. They’re my clients. They’re my readers. But until they learn to soften up and lead with a little more receptive and feminine energy, they will continue to struggle with the men THEY want.
To me, that’s your blind spot, Nathan. Without making this sound personal, most of these women want men who are confident, leaders, decision makers, breadwinners, sexually dominant, etc. And THOSE men don’t need women to call them and ask them out. They’ve got it under control. They do what they want. If they like you, they call you. If they are attracted to you, you’ll know. If they want to commit, you’ll get a commitment.
Can an alpha woman ask out a beta man with great success? Sure. The beta will be thrilled that he didn’t have to put himself on the line and make the first move. The friction here is that alpha women want men who are more alpha…and alpha men don’t want alpha women in return.
I hope that makes sense. And I hope it’s consistent with everything else I said. It’s not that a woman CAN’T ask out a man; it’s that the men that most women generally want will do the asking out for her.
Michelle says
#76 Zaq, in the real world, of course there has to be initial indication from the woman that she might be interested. That’s usually a smile, tilt of the head, eye contact. I actually am not a fan of a ‘cold approach’, just approaching a woman with who hasn’t even been able to or has given interest signals. At an initial meet, is the risk higher for a man to approach a woman in person/in real life, even if he gets what is universally assumed to be ‘buy’ signals? Yes. Does he need to muster the courage and face rejection? Yes. That’s life…do you want to be right (women should pursue), or do you want to be happy? (the generic ‘you’)
For on line dating, come on! There is virtualy NO risk for him to wink at her or send her an email. There could be considerations from him in regard to time and effort he wants to invest, i.e. custom email vs. wink, if she doesn’t respond or says there’s not match, oh well. As a woman, when I winked or emailed a man, it never worked out to my benefit. So in my little world, it’s pretty clear that I need to be patient and wait for a man to contact me, then take it from there.
The rejection factor for on line dating is higher for both men and women, primarily too the opportunities are so much greater number wise. That’s one of the frustrating parts of on line dating. It’s not a perfect world.
Finally, it only takes ONE.
In regard to women coming up to you and offering sex, that’s what I finished my last post with. Everyone needs to choose wisely in regard to the type of women/men they want to get involved with.
Goldie says
Here’s my take on it — it’s called the dating game for a reason. Dating appears to have its own rules and dynamics that do not necessarily apply to the rest of our lives — work, parenting, running a household etc. As a result, when a woman pursues a man too aggressively, I’m guessing that in many cases, it confuses him and he has a hard time determining how he really feels towards her. He may also feel that, as a gentleman, he cannot say no, so will say yes when he doesn’t really feel like it, or is ambivalent. FTR, I went after my ex and succeeded, if by success you mean marrying the guy you went after… 20+ years and two kids later, guess what, I’m on this blog. We were a bad match, but I was coming on so strong, the poor guy probably never even stopped to think about it.
This doesn’t mean that a woman shouldn’t, for lack of a better term, make googly eyes at a man and see what happens, especially in online dating, where a big part of the game is getting noticed. I’ve sent one-line emails, added people to my favorites, given them 5-star rankings etc., all of which gets them to notice me and respond if they are so inclined. I did not, however, initiate dates or any type of escalation in a relationship. I figured that should all come from the guy, because that’s how the game is played.
Sayanta says
I don’t want to sound repetitive, but I’m genuinely confused about something. The advice here tends to be wait for a guy to ask you out, which I totally get and am cool with. But at the same time, writing to a guy online first is completely approved of. The thing is, isn’t it the same dynamic? That is, the woman taking the lead?
Evan Marc Katz says
Sayanta, after all these years, you still haven’t bought Finding the One Online, which explains how you can initiate contact and still be confident and feminine and mysterious?
You know me well enough to know that I do everything in my power to close the loop on what might seem like internal contradictions.
Michelle says
“If you’re a woman sitting at home waiting for a call or e-mail all the time, I’d suggest that the story you have about men and what they are “supposed” to do isn’t helping you.”
#77, the answer to the woman in this situation is to get out of the house! Get involved with all kinds of things, learn how to smile at everyone out there and to say hi at the very least, be friendly. The answer is NOT to be in their masculine energy and pursue men. For some reason, people nowadays, and maybe it’s younger people without a lot of dating and life experience, not sure, think that technology and society trumps and changes biology. There could be nothing further from the truth.
I’m a confident assertive woman who can pretty much make anything happen, and that’s how I married my husband. I pursued him all the way to the alter–stupidly. Because I didn’t know any better and frankly, not sure anyone could have told me any different. He was loyal and a good dad, but not the kind of man that I admired or was strong enough to be the man I needed (see #74 above) and that was not a relationship where I ever could just be in my feminine energy. So I’m speaking from experience and lots of education on why this dynamic works and why it’s important.
Sayanta says
EMK-
Lol touché
nathan says
Evan, a few things. First, given that you know your client base a lot better than I do, I can’t argue a lot with what you said about them as a group. I tend to view things in terms of how society is moving as a whole, and from what I see, the fixed narratives around gender are breaking down and morphing. You and others can disagree with that, and maybe I’m wrong, but that’s where my comments are coming from.
Secondly, a lot of your posts are pointing women to the fact that a lot of what they have been told is the “way to date” isn’t terribly helpful. I have always respected that, even when I don’t agree with every detail. It seems to me you’re often telling women to try something different, and really my comment above is mostly saying try something different.
Lastly, I think it’s worth noting that many of the men on this post and others tend to question at least some of the first ate/early dating norms. Whether it’s who pays the check or who should be responsible to make the first move. Clearly, we are a small sample size, but I have always found it interesting how often men on here are pushing against some of the stuff many women seem to expect and say they think things need to change, or demonstrate how things have changed. That includes your posts, Evan.
nathan says
Michelle82, I’m in my mid-30’s, and have plenty of experience under my belt. What you claim is biology, in my view is a mixture of biology and socialization. And I’d argue it’s more socialization than biology. We’ll just have to agree to disagree about that because I don’t want to derail Evan’s thread.
When I speak about women not playing a totally receptive and/or passive role, I’m not arguing for the other extreme. How often I see Evan dealing with the same assumption. Must get old. Anyway, what I’m saying is that it’s dangerous to have a long list of expectations about what men “should be doing” that you run your dating life by. You want a strong, confident man. Fine. My point is that he might be strong and confident and not do all the things you expect him to do early on. Maybe he initiates first contact, sets up the date, etc. And then wants to split the bill. Or maybe he doesn’t tell you right away that he’s really interested in you, not because he isn’t, but because he’s trying to let the date sink in for a few days first. Or perhaps he has a mix of directness and indirectness. The point, and frankly Evan has said the same thing before, is that there aren’t a lot of truly “alpha guys.” Just as there really aren’t that many truly “shy” guys either. Most of us are somewhere in the middle along the spectrum. It just seems to me that a lot of women forget that, and expect men to demonstrate clear and obvious signs all the time.
Joe says
In order for you to entice a bloke to send you a message online, though, you have to have a hook in your profile. Something that makes you different from all the other women out there. Generic language about liking sports or going out to dinner doesn’t really fit the bill.
Androgynous says
Hi Nathan. Interesting point you made about socialization versus biology. I do agree a lot with your observations – my own husband who is very very very alpha but a late generation x (on the cusp of generation y) kind of guy fully expects me to pull my weight in bringing money into the household and pay my own way. One point I would like to make is that some of what we think are socializations are actually things driven by biology and survival. For instance, back in medieval/feudal times, only the very rich and powerful barons, warlords, chiefs, nobles etc could afford very beautiful but totally useless white elephants of a woman. Incapable of doing anything but pleasuring her master. The peasants had to find women who were hardworking, intelligent, resourceful and yes, capable of her own defence and that of her children if necessary (eg if her husband was busy fighting for his own life).
So yes, from a survival point of view, men like to take the lead, but most definitely appreciate a woman who is able to back him up and share the load. I don’t think men like to give women the lead specifically because he is alpha or due to socialization, but because men generally like to be in control. Not because he is being a prick but because he likes to know exactly what is going on, what is going to happen, what he is going to do about it, harking back to biology and prehistory when men have generally been the ones confronting and dealing with threats. Sure men can cede control to others, but usually within a certain context and usually to other men whom they already have some sort of a relationship and understanding with. And they do so within a context of rules (explicit or implicit) and organization (hierarchical usually) that is similar to a kind of military or business model. Men generally don’t see domestic arrangements and romantic relationships as falling into this sort of business/military model.
MilkyMae says
If you meet a man and you hope he asks you on date, you probably aren’t the only one who is hoping.
Ray says
nathan,
I agree with you. Society’s rules are changing. I’m perfectly fine doing the asking or ‘waiting’ to be asked. I don’t have a one size fits all approach…. I will say that my impatience has gotten limited results though. Impatience meaning… I know he’s attracted to me. Ask me out already… Unfortunately for the guy, if he waits too long past the initial interest phase, there is no going back for me. That has happened to me many times. I can’t reignite interest in a guy if he doesn’t respond in some way to me early on… whether the approach is subtle or not so subtle. The guys might want to keep that in mind. I’m sure I’m not the only woman who is like this.
To all… Regarding online dating and making the first move… the rules are weird there. Frankly, the quality of men I met when I did the initiating was much higher than when the guy approached me first. When I approached him, it was because I saw significant compatibility… they almost always responded, even when I had NO pictures. Ultimately though, the overall quality of men, the preponderance of ‘multi-dating’, as well as the pace that men doing online dating expect was not my cup of tea. I’m sticking strictly to offline dating. For many many reasons.
Michelle says
#85 Nathan, I couldn’t agree more with “what I’m saying is that it’s dangerous to have a long list of expectations about what men “should be doing” that you run your dating life by….” I’ve just started a new relationship and I find myself having expectations, and having to check myself on those expections. Many of those expectations are based on past relationships, or ideas on my head of my ‘perfect man’, what I think he ‘should’ do (by the way, when someone says should, it’s a red flag, it’s a way of trying to control, I try to avoid that words as much as possible). I’m human and I think many women do the same thing. The key, in my opinion, is to not dwell on those things, changing thinking patterns, and enjoy the moment!
#90 Ray, you’re contradicting yourself and making the point: “… I know he’s attracted to me. Ask me out already… ” Guess he’s not that attracted, otherwise he would ask you out (consider watcing the moving, He’s Just not that Into You). Assuming he’s too shy, or too busy, etc. is a woman’s way of making excuses for a man.
Margo says
Another insufferable scumbag leading another innocent, trusting woman on. What else is new? He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew the OP wanted him, and he revelled in his little game. It served to boost his ego. OP, you need to end the friendship and go on your merry way. Ignore all of his attempts to contact you.
Betsey says
Nathan 77, 85, 86: Love the points you make.
Androgynous 88: All humans face physical threats to their survival and they always have. It’s not like men in days gone by took on all of the physical dangers while women sat home safe and sound. That has never been the reality and it isn’t the reality today.
Saint Stephen says
@Nathan and others
– Just to straighten out some of the bad science floating around here...”
First, the men are wired to chase argument is not some evolutionary psychology propaganda – it’s the truth. Since the stone age and medieval times, women have never chased men – rather it’s been the other way round.
Secondly, I’d argue that “the men are wired to chase women” is more of biology than social conditioning. If you doubt you can take a look animals; during the mating phase, it’s the male who aggressively pursues the female and actively tries to win her over. Sometimes they achieve this by incessant flirting or show of care and support and on extreme cases by engaging other males in bloody combat that are sometimes life threatening. In other cases the male just chases and dominates the female (this would be equated to rape in human society).
However, I believe that one of the reasons why we are evolved primates is our ability to override our primal instincts and biological wiring whenever it isn’t helping us to achieve our aim.
JoJOe says
Cutting to the Chase
What archaeologist discovered foot prints that revealed primitive men chasing primitive woman?
Knights were created by the king for the king. They were created to kill and be killed. Men created the “damsel”, her job and training was to play hard to get because the king wanted to use her as a pawn to get more land and riches. Marriage was a monetary treaty carried on between countries and kingdoms for power and control. It was the name not the dame that was important. This was not a woman’s choice. Until Henry the 8th s daughter, Elizabeth the 1st, women were losing their heads over patriarchal power.
However, there are no recordings of any “alpha” knights except in “Camealot” that a knight was successful in his attempt to persuade a king for his daughter. Knights were usually killed in battle or married milkmaids. Settling on the king’s land and fighting when called upon. Romancing the stones that built their homes on the king’s land was their “lot” in life.
When the great and powerful kings observed great and powerful “alpha” knights getting killed in jousting competitions they realized that their debt ratio was imbalanced. Jousting was jousted for more economical sacrifices on the front lines of booty and bootae.
That CHASE was to “rape and pillage”
So when we view the Neanderthal or the knight in the game of chasing the female. We have to question the intention. Is he on fire for her or does he just want her “fire” or put her house on fire?
If he’s in hot pursuit, is he carrying a club or a torch to protect or to harm?
In today’s medium a man should not be a Neanderthal nor a disposable knight. He is free to make his choices without fear of freezing to death or bleeding to death. When he is chasing a woman he is usually chasing her firstly within his jeans not his genealogy. A woman, though feeling flattered and desired should trip this man and question his intentions. Then a rapport can commence, anything less is just fuedality.. HA!
Ray says
[email protected]
I realize it might sound like I’m contradicting myself, so I’ll clarify.
I’m impatient. If I sense a guy is interested in me, I don’t have any problems making the first move. Most of the time, he does reciprocate. Not always. The reason why it usually doesn’t work out in the long run are many. Not all of them attributable to male/female dynamics I’m betting…
I don’t believe in gender stereotypes… but I do understand there are stereotypes for a reason. I’m learning to have more patience in waiting long enough to determine if a particular man also appears to hold those stereotypes. If he does, then yea, I agree that if he’s not asking me out, then he’s not interested… If he’s asking out other women and not me, then yea, he’s not interested in me. On the other hand, sometimes it really does kinda make life easier to just ask the guy out and see what happens.
If nothing else, then maybe I have a new friend. I have many male friends. I don’t view all men as date material so I don’t expect all men to view me as date/relationship material either. No sense throwing out the baby with the bath water…. especially if he is a decent person.
Society isn’t going to change until each one of us do, and frankly, I think it is really idiotic to hold onto stereotypes with a death grip… doesn’t honor the individual.
nathan says
I think Ray is pointing out the dance aspect of all of this. Fairly often in my experience, there’s been a period of time where things are up in the air. Perhaps both of us are aware of the interest in the other, or perhaps that interest isn’t clear on one end. In either case, a move hasn’t been made yet, and that can be unnerving.
In my view, it’s most important to consider timing. Moving too quickly can push away anyone, and obviously moving too slowly doesn’t work either. What’s too quick and too slow depends on each person as well. I remember waiting several weeks before asking out one woman I dated because it seemed like the right approach for where she was at. Which makes me wonder if sometimes what women are experiencing when asking men out is simply moving too quickly. Not everyone leaps at going on a date an hour or two after meeting someone.
Michelle says
So we’ll agree to disagree that male and female inbred, reptilian brain instincts are ‘stereotypes’, although I never said that. What I would love to hear, since there is no fundamental difference in males and females, why in general boys like to play with ‘boy’ toys, like trucks and in general girls like to play with girls toys like dolls. Those must be stereotypes too, just like the radical feminists claim. Anyone who is a parent can immediately see that’s not the case.
Funny too how on one hand there are those here who say society has changed men and women so much, but on the other hand society isn’t going to change until one of us do. We’re talking thousands of years here of societal changes and there fundamental differences in men and women that have not changed at all. Again, once one raises kids, I think a lot of this becomes very apparent.
Perhaps the reasons it doesn’t work out is because you’re too much in your masculine energy, and ultimately, that’s a turn off for the men? Just throwing it out there…there usually are other factors, timing, personality, etc. A man will NEVER say this is the reason he becomes disinterested, he just doesn’t know why he doesn’t feel it.
Androgynous says
Betsy, yes both men and women in the past have faced threats equally, but it has generally been men having to deal with those threats head on. Men are the first the go into battle, with women only being forced into self defence as a last resort when all the men have been killed. Even the “celebrated” Israeli army does not send its women fighters direct into battle in the first instance. Mainly because historically women have been pregnant a lot of the time and men have generally been more physically capable of battle (higher muscle to fat ratio as fat is necessary in women for estrogen to function properly and for fetus incubation purposes). In facing any threats head on, society generally sends out its most physically capable individuals first. It make absolutely no sense to send your women out to fight the enemy’s men unless your women are seven foot valkyeris facing off three foot tall pygmies from the kalahari.
Michelle, yes what you have observed is correct. Generally men’s brains behave in a different way – generally of course since there are always exceptions. A friend of mine who is a stauch feminist gave her son dolls and her daughter trucks to play with. Guess what happened ? Her son’s doll became superman, fighting evil and engaging villains to battles to the death. Her daughter’s trucks spoke to each other, were friends, went on cute social outings and had “relationships” with each other.
Ray says
[email protected]
You are assuming it is the man who decides not to proceed in those situations… that isn’t always the case. In fact, it isn’t the case most of the time.
Why do boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls? Because that is what their parents buy them. That is what they see on TV and what they see other children near them playing with.
If a boy played with dolls, he’d be ridiculed and shunned. Girls who are ‘tomboys’ are equally shunned. That’s not biology. It is socialization.
Michelle says
“A friend of mine who is a stauch feminist gave her son dolls and her daughter trucks to play with. Guess what happened ? Her son’s doll became superman, fighting evil and engaging villains to battles to the death. Her daughter’s trucks spoke to each other, were friends, went on cute social outings and had “relationships” with each other.”
Valuable lesson learned!
Men are about death, women are about life.
Ray says
[email protected]
Good for them. I hardly think your one example is indicative of the entire male or female gender. I could give you plenty of my own… starting with me and the things my parents gave me to play with growing up… in addition to their reactions to what I did with those toys… but I suspect it wouldn’t matter.
You appear to believe we are slaves to ‘biology’. I don’t. We’ll have to agree to disagree. IMHO, biology might be informative, and that’s nice. I don’t tend to refer to it as an excuse mechanism.
Once upon a time, people also believed the sun revolved around the earth, that black people’s brains were smaller (so were women’s) and that we should be ‘bled’ when sick to drain out the disease. All of these have been shown to be debunked, of course.
Ray says
Back to the topic… I agree that asking a man out in general probably isn’t useful or productive most of the time. However, I’ve also learned that it is the exceptions that make life the most interesting…
I’m for trying all avenues. What’s it going to hurt really? If it doesn’t work, try something else. Big deal. I’m ok asking men out, or learning how to do it in ways that are appealing. I feel I’ve accomplished this most of the time.
When I was online, I did almost all of the initiating, and rarely or never responded to men who made first contact with me. The ones who made first contact were usually just attracted to the pictures and had nothing else going oon for him.
At some point, I decided to stop wasting my time plowing through gobs of unwanted emails from spammers who liked my pictures, and wasting my time reading well-intentioned emails from men who had a ‘system’ that makes it LOOK like they read your profile or give a crap what you actually think… (go on a date with them and see how much they REALLY read… not much!!)
Nope, I shucked all that, pulled down my pictures… and spent my spare time going after the ones who I seemed to have genuine compatibility with at a personal level. The quality of my interactions went WAY up after I did that. Still, I had to exit online dating because, in spite of all that, there are waaaayy too many men there who just aren’t ready or looking for a committed relationship… nor do most of them have the kind of character I’m looking for. Cheaters, recovering alcoholics, bankrupt, toxic relationships with ex-wives… yuck. Too much trouble sifting through all that. I’d rather meet someone in real life… where most of that is sorted out through other filters…
Anyway, long post, I know.. but I just wanted to share with the other women how much MORE successful my interactions became once I did some careful initiating. And especially for those of you who happen to be above average in the looks department… I realize it can get REALLY old dealing with the spammers and the disingenuous. Save your pics for the ones you choose yourself… or choose pics that are the less attractive (yet still appealing) versions of you. You’ll be attracting men of higher character, IMHO.
AllenB says
@100 Men are about death
This is the most offensive, sexist generalization I have ever seen. It is even worse than saying “all women are stupid.” In four words you have said half of humanity’s reason for existence is to kill and destroy.
Michelle says
I find it very interesting the type of people this blog attracts. What I have found is that ‘birds of a feather flock together’. There tends to be very little understanding of nuance, nor is there curiosity. Although I did laugh out loud at #103 because it has nothing to do with anything.
Men ARE all about ‘death’. When we were in prehistoric times, they went out under very harsh conditions to gather food for their families–know they would be facing death all the time. Throughout history, it’s primarily men who go to war–do you think they don’t know they could possibly be giving up their lives as a result? In the U.S., the military is voluntary. In today’s world, what do you think sports is? It’s the ‘death’ of the opponent metaphorically. Men still VOLUNTEER in the U.S. for the military. In many stories, fables, tales, the man goes off as a hero, and hopefully returns safely, but often goes understanding he may die (and it’s the woman who send him off on his journey). I could go on an on, but I won’t.
Obviously this is a lofty intellectual concept.
Jackie says
Ever see an egg chase a sperm? End of story as far as biology goes.
Society, though, sometimes advocates different behaviors than biology.
Many men are comfortable with the biological approach; women who want these types of men need to act like an egg, be receptive to them.
Meanwhile, certain men prefer acting like eggs not sperm, and wait for women to chase them down.
Decide what type you are and see what works.
Helen says
Michelle, it is more accurate to say that men are less risk-averse than to say that they are “about death.” And it is not as though it is such a simple dichotomy: “men are about death, women are about life.” In your own examples, the men who hunted food and fought in wars braved death, yes – but for the purpose of preserving the lives of others.
Historically, because men were generally physically stronger, they were used in society in ways that were meant to defend; whether against other humans, predatory animals, or harsh weather conditions. It is no wonder men evolved to become less risk-averse. This is something that has benefited society AS A WHOLE, including the women in it.
No wonder AllenB took offense to that comment. There is no need to laugh at him or to suggest that these concepts are too “lofty” for him to understand.
Betsey says
Women aren’t more risk averse than are men. Before mid-1900s, getting pregnant was a mortally dangerous proposition, given the high rate of maternal deaths in childbirth. Yet women have always taken on this risk. Since more people are born than die in wars, I’d say that women have carried more than their share of the risk-taking throughout history. This willingness to bear children despite the possibility of death has benefited society as a whole much more than fighting in wars, I’d say.
And most of male “protection” of women has been protection against other men. A woman was a man’s property that other men were out to take or defile or destroy. While I’m glad that my female forebears were protected property long enough to procreate, I’m not sure why we have to romanticize this historical fact or use biology as a justification for it.
Greg says
Betsey,
That is not true. Pregnancy does not qualify as a high risk activity. The majority of women did not die during child birth even in centuries past. Men have shorter life spans than women and have always been the ones charged with doing the most dangerous jobs. War, sailing, exploration, building and mining to name a few. Men are more likely to die in accidents. All men didn’t view women as property. many men of ancient times wrote heart-melting love poems about women. Its annoying when feminists keep trying to rewrite history.
Betsey says
[email protected]: Not sure where you’re getting your info from, but it is inaccurate.
1) In colonial America, for instance, a woman’s lifetime chances of dying in childbirth were 1 in 8.
2) The love poems you’re likely talking about were part of a literary tradition called “courtly love,” where a man of the court singled out a woman of the court to act as his muse. These relationships were not consummated; the woman in question was often the wife of a nobleman of higher rank than the man who was writing about her. He did not actually have a relationship with the object of his desire.
You can google “childbirth” or “maternal death in childbirth” and “courtly love” if you want verification of what I have just written. Has nothing to do with feminism or rewriting history.
And more stats:
In England, 1700-1935, the estimated rate of maternal mortality in childbirth was 25 in 1,000, or 25,000 women annually. That’s 5.875 million women dying in childbirth in England alone during the time period cited above.
You can verify the maternal death stats I use here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3511335
Women were also killed in the course of wars and continue to be to this day, despite the fact that they usually have nothing to do with starting the wars.
Again, nothing feminist about this, though reading this stuff is making me turn in that direction.
JoJOe says
Ah, a mind.. thank you.. nothing like a good mind..
Lara says
Greg 108: Pregnancy isn’t an activity. Maybe the reason that you don’t see it as high-risk is because you don’t ever have to even think about going through it. Having been through it myself, the idea of giving birth in the conditions that women put up with for eons is positively terrifying. And to do so when impregnated by a man for whom you were just property, something to carry on his name, is really horrifying. Consent was not a concept in marriage until recent decades, either. So it’s not like women had much say in whether or not they’d take on the mortal risk of having a child.
Greg says
OK childbirth mortality rates were higher. Big deal. So were the mortality rates for every other disease. Black plague? I guess life must have been altogether terrifying before modern medicine. Some of the women on here are so bitter. I’m pretty sure women enjoyed life before the 20th century. Some of you act as if all men in the past beat their wives and viewed them as property. That’s ridiculous. There’s always been good and bad men. Many men deeply loved their wives. Even in the Bible which was written centuries ago, men are told to continue loving their wives not becoming bitterly angry with them. So ancient texts do show that some men did love their wives and some wives loved their husbands. Men haven’t changed much throughout recorded history. Good men who loved their wives treated them well, just like any normal human being would do.
Betsey says
Greg 111: It isn’t about men being “good” or “bad.” How we understand what is good or bad behavior is determined by our society and culture. In the 17th century a man would not necessarily be considered a bad husband for beating his wife. And especially not for having sex with her against her will. The notion that a husband can assault and rape his wife is very recent–some states didn’t define spousal rape until the 1970s, which meant it was too bad for the woman if she married a guy who wanted it and she didn’t and he was going to force the issue. And the idea that marriages should include romantic sexual attraction didn’t come into play until the early part of the 20th century, reaching its apex in the 1950s.
The word “love” as it is used in the Bible isn’t talking about romantic love, the way we do today. This is a translation issue. And again, even in Biblical times, a man might beat his wife and still think that he was not doing anything wrong. In Biblical times, a woman would be stoned if she were raped, just as it happens in Afghanistan today.
The people who are responsible for clarifying and educating people about the human rights issues regarding the treatment of women are what you would call feminists.
AS says
I’ve been in a similar situation and actually told my friend about my feelings. He told me that he did not see me in that way and then 1 week later we were out a social event and we spent most of the evening together snogging! So I asked him afterwards about the mixed signals and whether he had changed his mind but he said that he could not see us being ‘married’ in the future. We are no longer friends because despite knowing the way I felt about him (and I took the rejection on the chin) he took advantage of the situation – so I guess he really could not have been a good friend in the first place!
Greg says
Betsey your really reaching. I don’t think anyone can confuse love and beating, especially when the same passage told men not to be bitterly angry with their wives. Also they were told to assign honor to their wives and to love their wives as their own bodies. Obviously you are not familiar with the Bible.
My point here is not to provide a religious sermon but to to point out that treating women well is not some sort of modern invention. Women’s rights does not equal women’s fair treatment. There have always been good men who treated women well and bad men who abused women. The same is true even in modern liberated societies. Domestic violence still exists, and sadly some women even stay in such abusive relationships of their own free will. Women are still objectified and treated poorly, even in America. If that weren’t the case then there wouldn’t be all the male hatred and bitterness in this forum. The point I’m making is that there will always be men who mistreat their fellow women and men who don’t. I don’t feel that you can argue that women are better or worse off overall n the 21st century. I personally think that things are about the same.
Betsey says
Greg 114: Actually, I have studied theology and Christianity extensively, along with both living and dead languages, and history.
The Bible doesn’t say anything about loving your wife except in the New Testament where husbands get the vague admonishment to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, however you want to interpret that. You get a lot about wives submitting to their husbands, though.
I do agree with you that there have always been people who have treated other people well. It just hasn’t always been law or practice for men to treat women well, if you believe, as I do, that treating someone well means as equals and as an autonomous being who gets to choose her own fate. I find it disingenuous to suggest that men have treated women well historically. Just as it’s disingenuous to suggest that African slaves were treated well by white slave owners. Were all slaves killed and maimed and raped by white slave owners? Probably not. But the mere fact that that law allowed a white man to own a black person and do whatever he wanted without punishment was enough to terrorize an entire subsection of the population for generations, and that legacy continues. We all have to deal with that, still.
It’s the same way with women. A husband had complete control over his wife and children. Whether he exercised that control or not, or to what extent he was abusive, has little bearing on how having no say in your life has affected women as a group. And again, there are legacy issues from this.
Done with this discussion. Best of luck to you!
Greg says
I was not saying that women were treated well historically. I was just pointing out that there are always good people and bad people. Making laws and giving people “rights” doesn’t change people hearts. When slavery was abolished, bad people found new ways to mistreat people. Likewise making it illegal to beat women won’t make a bad man love women. Instead of beating his wife a bad man will verbally abuse her. So just because women now have “rights” doesn’t mean that they are as a group better off. Especially when some women still choose to be in terrible relationships.
romantic ideas says
what kills me here is the comments, why all the arguments? Men and Women are different. We’ve known it for a while now chaps. Let’s all be friends and enjoy life and all that goes with it. Love each other and love life!
Margaret Thatcher says
Great. So now women are being told not to pursue, and men seem to be becoming UNWILLING to pursue…where is this going to get us as a society!?
Reminds me of the middle school dances where boys stood on one side of the room, and girls stood on the other side, each facing the giant empty void in the middle.
Janet says
Greg @116: Yes, women as a group are better off with rights. Give up yours for awhile and then we’ll have a discussion.
NonExist says
Sometimes a guy can think highly of a woman without wanting to actually be in her life. Especially in the case of a long term friendship.
Angelina knew this guy for ten years which meant that a lot of information was shared between them.
And either the guy learned something about her that did not match his goals, or the time had passed where he was attracted to her, or he enjoyed the friendship so much that he did not want to take things to a more complicated level in a romantic relationship. Or that if they do date and break up , their friendship may suffer and he would lose her. Course in this case he did but he may not have expected that.
Have lost several wonderful female friends because of this situation.
I do not think the guy was intentionally sending mixed messages, he just felt that he could share intimate thoughts with a friend.
One of the posters said emoting everything might be inconsiderate.
But is that not what a good friend does, listen and share the deepest things no matter what they are.
Kali says
I agree with everyone else that says that 25% is a tad bit too low. I don’t know if I’m too impatient or I’ve dated shy men but in my past I’ve been the one that goes after the relationship. My husband and I watched each other from afar until I decided to make the first move. I believe a man will go after you if he is looking for a “good time” but becomes shy when he is actually interested in a relationship.
dave says
If he cannot approach me ask me out, then I do not want to date him! Gee, how wonderfully convenient. Let women taste some of this rejection and they will change that tune!
elli says
I will briefly return to the topic of asking out. In my opinion, it doesn ´t matter so much who does it. What matters more is whether it is done in an appropriate way – politely, not aggressively, etc. – and at the right time – when you feel that the other party will accept. I don ´t understand the whole “science” concerning askig out. E.g. my boyfriend didn ´t even remember when I asked hm which of us had initiated the first date, he said that he had been looking to seeing me and that was all that mattered. I like the idea of relationship as “tango”. Yes, the man leads, but sometimes the woman makes moves she wants to make and it doesn ´t harm the whole dance, or does it? When two right people meet, all these things are irrelevant, but of course, I understand Evan ´s advice because he just wants to prevent people from being unhappy in this dating game.
Suzy says
I think that timing is also a huge factor. I have a friend who I have feelings for. We met thru a mutual friend about 9 months ago and although we currently live in differentcountries, we talk almost every day by phone. I stayed with him recently when I returned to my home country for a visit. He is visiting the country I live in in January. We have a great connection, laugh constantly and are so relaxed in each others company. When he comes here, we are going away for a weekend. Despite the connection and the flirting he says we are better as friends as he doesn’t think long distance works. I am due to return to live in my home home country next year and am waiting til then to see what happens.
I do believe that timing has a lot to do with whether or not we get together. If he still wants friendship instead of a relationship then I have to decide what I do next……back off or stay as friends. Hoping it’s about the timing!
Sally says
Another reason: he’s in a ten year relationship with a man and cant tell you about it, but hooks up with other random people, mostly men during this time and enjoys spending time with you- especially since it makes him appear straight. He may later come back to you, claiming deep love and stating that he is bisexual. After, ofcourse, the other guy breaks up with him and he decides he wants kids. This happened to someone Ä° know. Stay strong, and dont question too much why its not working out. You can later decide, if he comes back, if this relationship is good for you.
Angel says
There have men that instead of making things easy for me and asking me out, they tell other people to say things to me and they sneak around and play stupid games and create stress in me that I get to a point where I am thinking about commiting myself into a hospital because of their stupidity. If they could just approch me just say hello and we can move on from there, but NO! they just have to get me to a point where I just want to get commited to a hospital of call the police on them. My god, really!
JoJOe says
Always be grateful for the men that never call, never show up, never come along, never enter your space. Be cheerful and be thankful they never came along, to your door, out of the woodwork, across the floor.
Be happy knowing they were never suppose to come along on your ride, your journey. Sweep any hostility aside and smile knowing they were never meant to. Be secure in knowing this and watch the magic in your life surround you. I know this to be true. I’ve come along way “baby” and I’ve snatched the pebble. I’ve tossed it into the pond knowing that holding onto my vices was ridiculous but letting go started the ripples on the shores of tomorrow. Oh, I’m on a roll today. HA.
Angel says
Either they talk and approch me in a appropraite way or they need to leave me alone. They need to choose!!!! I will call the police on them if they don’t leave me alone. People can talk to me, but when they do thing like what they have been doing I will document and I will call the ploice on whomever.
Eliot says
75% of men are Alpha males? Seriously?
Evan, I’m betting you are an attractive women, by most standards. As such, you can’t base this presumption about “men who got the memo in the third grade” on your experiences. How insulting you are.
I’m guessing that you encounter Alpha males all the time, I don’t doubt. Most reasonably attractive women do. But to abdicate women’s responsibility for asking men out on that basis is irresponsible, in my view.
While I feel for Angelina, and I know her feelings got hurt, guess what? Her story has happen dozens if not hundreds of times to most men. A man will meet a woman. She will seem interested, even agree to go on a date. Then, usually because she got a better offer, she will cancel; or it will turn out she just really wanted a free meal; or she will stand the man up just to get back at other men; or she will go out with you just to make the guy she really likes jealous; or she will purposefully misunderstand your “date” while she in fact has a boyfriend.
This is the world of single men. These are the minefields they face. Angelina, that feeling you’re feeling right now? Confusion, rejection, disappointment? That happens so often for men, it’s like air.
So yes, Erin is right that it’s just the cost of expressing your feelings. And I agree that, if being around him is too painful, then you can no longer be friends. But I disagree with Erin that it’s a good idea to “read the signs.” Why, when it’s so much simpler: if you think you like a guy, ask him out. Know that he might say no, even if he’s attracted to you. In fact, I kind of give this guy props if his reason for not going out was he wanted to keep the friendship or he didn’t think you’d have a good relationship. Of course, if that were true, I take the props back, because why is he telling you those things? Still, you were right to ask him out, and you should do it more often, if you think you might be interested in someone.
JW says
Hi
No. Men do not always ask out women to whom their attracted.
I”m a case in point. In college, I was attracted to someone in every way possible. I never hinted on it. I was just too focused on being a better person through studying, that I didn’t take time to focus on her.
Had she asked me if I was into her, I would have said yes. Had I asked her, I do not know what she would have said. We were and we are both fit and very attractive.
So, women, maybe he is into you.
Amanda says
Evan what you wrote was wonderful! I wasn’t looking for this type of advice, but it sure did help. Men always confuse me. I think they have a shelf life when it comes to asking girls out. Maybe initially he was attracted, but you were unavailable. Then, so much time went on that he thought he didn’t want to ruin the friendship because look what happened 🙁 I am curious to what your friend said to you when you told him. Just being nosey. It’s a shame a friendship got ruined in the midst of this! Keep searching honey, you will find him out there!
John says
Honestly as a guy I can straight up tell you from well knowing myself and many others that a guy will not ask you out just because hes interested in you, I myself haven’t asked a single one I’ve been interested in WHY? There are a million reasons however I’m sure most would be ignored and chalked up to being a beta so ill just post one reason and that’s rejection. Most guys I have met would not ask out a girl they truly like unless they had a VERY strong reason to believe she would reciprocate those feelings this apply’s to many guys women even the ones women often assume are “ALPHA” not just talking about betas here. You need to keep in mind that as a guy there is well an 80 to 90% chance that we have never even been approached and hit on by an attractive or even unattractive girl and even for those who have had this happen I would bet it was but a fraction of the number of times you’ve had your looks validated by a member of the opposite sex. Point is the saying men are from Mars and women are from Venus makes allot more sense than most realize since we truly live and grow up in COMPLETELY different worlds from each other.
starthrower68 says
So I am curious; do you ask out girls you really don’t have any interest in? That’s like aiming at a target and missing on purpose. I don’t think a girl likes being “settled for” anymore than a guy does.
Adam says
I don’t typically ask a girl out simply because I consider her attractive.
I look at the whole situation and there are various factors that affect whether I would ask her out. For example, if I work with her, even if I am attracted to her, I wouldn’t ask her out or start any kind of relationship with her. Too much chance for drama.
Another major thing, is I try to gauge her interest in me. If she is not interested, I don’t bother to ask her out no matter how attracted I am to her. No need for unnecessary awkwardness.
JoJOe says
Failure is the only answer.
All the top dogs in business say, if you have not failed many times, you will never succeed.
Don’t repeat the same actions that did not work, that’s insanity.
But don’t stop the attempt towards the goal.
Churchill, “Never never never (13) of them, give up”
There is a guy on youtube who looks for rejection. I think that’s the best way to go about it. That takes out the sting and perfects the game.
Just like the “Interview” the new resume, the new anything.
Look for failure, look for rejection.
Ivy says
I agree wtih what Evan wrote and it’s insightful but for Angela who posted this the biggest thing I’d say is why in the world did you wait 10 years to ask this guy outright if he had feelings for you?
No matter how you could have known from A, B, or C, or a combination, you could have known a lot sooner by just asking him outright sooner, much much sooner.
I mean, how fun could it be to be friends with a guy hoping or thinking there is more but never getting to that point and why in the world would anyone put themselves in a long term heart juggling situation like that?
Friendship is great, but 10 years, really, putting one’s heart on an unreiprocated line like that for so long, it’s just something I don’t understand.
If I were friends with someone and had feelings, I’d just throw it out there, you are either with me or you aren’t, I value my heart above a friendship, so I’d risk that frienship to save my heart from being on a fake string with a man who didn’t love me back.
IntellectualCandy says
Fact of the matter is that some men are using women to practice and sharpen their skills for the main event. Learn from the lesson because life is too short to allow guys like that to waste your time!
wp says
If I like a guy and we are talking on the phone and texting and he has not asked me out within a fair amount of time- I start to slowly ‘fade him to black’ as I call it. Which means I slow down on returning his texts or calls. It has worked with some real potentials but it definetly weeds out the rif raf or guys that aren’t worth my time.
Rere says
I can say that I wasn’t in a relationship with a guy for ten years. I can agree there are some warning bells that goes off inside you that tells you that he isn’t right. I have recently went through a case of a guy who I had been talking with for about two years and I recently decided to be with him in an intimate way. I was drawn to this guy. Thinking about it, he said all the right things, but he really didn’t back up what he was saying with actions which I already knew, but for some reason ignored that he wasn’t showing along with telling. Its nice to tell the lady that she isn’t totally at fault. Unfortunately it doesn’t stop one from feeling at fault. For years I held up standards and turned away men after men because they just wasn’t willing to commit or even show any interest in a long term relationship. I’m not sure why I lowered my standards and values for this one man; but I allowed him in. I fell hard for him. Once we had sex, he changed. He seemed more distant. I decided to ask “what are your intentions toward me?” Because I made it really clear from the beginning that I wanted someone who wanted the same thing I wanted which was a relationship. At 45 years old, I would think that men would know what they want at this point in their life and it doesn’t take forever to figure it out. His response to my question was “He didn’t know yet” When those words fell from his lips I knew without a doubt that he had not real intentions of building a relationship. I knew that his intentions were to string me along as long as he could. The knowledge hit me like a ton of brick and my heart fell to the bottom of my feet. He actually wanted to kiss after he said those words to me, but I was so hurt that I just couldn’t stand to look at him or for him to even touch me. He knew I knew what his plans were for me. He texted me and in my text to him I told him that I thought it was best if I didn’t see him anymore and I wished him well. I am so hurt that I just didn’t have the strength to look at him without wanting to cry. I just could not bear to be in his present any longer, therefore I end it. It still hurts like hell to know he really never had any good intentions toward me.
JoJO says
His intentions are his. You broke your own rules. In anyone’s eyes you broke your rules for him, he may think you’ll break them for anyone. No trust no relationship.
So, if you’re certain you want a relationship and you’ve got standards, I’d say stick to them or look wishy washy. He’s not breaking your heart you did that.
Judy says
Angelina-
This is the impression I got from your post. He valued your friendship based on the fact that it was of 10 years duration. Guys are not always immune to sexual thoughts even with friends. It could be that he said those things as a way of ‘testing the waters’ to see if you would be receptive to a ‘friends with benefits’ fling. Otherwise he would have asked you on a date if he wanted to pursue something more serious. You’re response clearly told him that you were emotionally involved and wanted something more. He possibly “shut you down” because he realized you were not on the ‘same page’. He was possibly “shutting himself down” too for having those thoughts. I get the impression that he did value your friendship. He didn’t take advantage of you. He probably had a realization about what he did, and didn’t want you to get hurt.
Paul says
As a man in what Evan describes as the [bottom] ‘25%’ – those who never tell women we find attractive that we like them – I find the implicit idea that there’s something wrong with me because I keep my feelings to myself to be offensive. I’ve liked lots of women over the years, but have never said anything to any of them. I’ve never gotten attention from women – from when I was in high school and college, I have never seen a woman smile at me or had a woman say hi. With that experience, I’m not about to tell someone who is almost certainly going to laugh in my face – or run away screaming – that I’d like to get to know her better. The fact is, I’m no worse than anyone else out there – I’m just chronically single and not stupid enough to expect that it change by opening myself to being humiliated. So enough silliness about grade 3 memos. C’mon, Evan, in your business, you must realize that the reality is that not every guy is even on the circulation list.
Tyrone says
Paul,
Every man puts himself out there by talking to a woman. About every guy I know has been rejected far more times than accepted. No women I’v dated ever came up to me and said anything. Most women I’ve dated didn’t smile at me first. If you truly believe that you talking to women will always end up with them laughing in your face or running away screaming, then there IS something wrong with you. If you don’t wish to continue to be chronically single, you’ll have to work through it. Never talking to any women out of fear ever will guarantee you stay single.
Arthur says
Many guys don’t ask women out at all – no matter how attractive they may find them because just flirting with a woman in Western society today could be — and often is — construed as sexual harassment. I’m an extreme introvert, and have never tried to flirt in the first place — I am certain I’d be an abject failure no matter how many times I tried. I’ve had literally no experience with women at all and a lot of advice given is to practice to ‘get better with women’ – whatever that means. Given the very real potential for legal issues to arise from trying to show a woman my interest in her just makes me avoid it. She’s just a human being after all – my life, reputation and hard work are worth more than the potential for another person to destroy it just because she isn’t attracted to me.
Allen says
No, even if I’m very interested in a woman (and I often am), I will not ask her out because just as she doesn’t know if I’m [one of a small minority of men who is] a rapist, I don’t know if she [is one if a small minority of women who] will publicly accuse me of sexual harassment just for saying hello. No, that’s not an exaggeration. I remember being 18, standing around for a bus, asking a woman who was probably 23 for the time because my phone was dead. She went off on a rant, apparently perceiving this as a pickup line, and judging me of course unworthy, even though I just wanted to figure out when the next bus was. And every time I said “sorry to bother you” she’d go off again. “what kind of man says I’m sorry!!” It’s women like that we remember, when we think about saying hello, and it just shuts us down completely. There are many more stories I can recall right now of that sort. The fact is, I’m now 31 have never so much as held hands or kissed a woman — and of course I’ve never been asked out by a woman either.It’s not ‘rejection’ that scares me – it’s being screamed at and called a creep in public, and / or accused of sexual harassment with all the ensuing destruction to all areas of my life, that completely destroys my wish to put myself out there to get a chance at a date. I’m not blaming anyone for this – men have done incomparably more unforgivable things to women than women have done to men – but I work very hard and won’t risk my freedom, my career, my reputation – just because one woman – who could be the attractive woman I see – thinks all men are rapists.
Jim says
Most of the time it never works out at all since most women are very picky these days.
No Name To Give says
People are picky. Neither gender has that market cornered.
Dennis R. says
I refuse to ask out any woman on a date because I figure if she is really that interested, she will ask me out, or at least hand me a note with her name and phone # on it and say: “I really enjoy talking to you and your company, let’s get together some time.” I refuse to ask out women on dates because I feel that is a societal construct. That we all should be asking out each other. But as long as I hear these stories of dads who will not permit their daughters to ask out guys, or women who refuse to ask out men because it is improper or whatever nonsense, I am content to be single and celibate the rest of my life. I do it on principle. I don’t care if society will never change. I stand on principle, I don’t feel it is my responsibility as a man to ask women out. That’s an outdated sexual role that leads to outdated sexual stereotypes that I am uncomfortable with. Most of all, I just don’t feel they are fair. And I do believe in fairness. If you feel I am a retard or immature or unmasculine, I don’t want you in my life anyway. I don’t believe in roles and stereotyping, period. I would rather be my true self that sell out.
Evan Marc Katz says
How’s that workin’ for ya?
Dennis R. says
Pretty good so far. I actually got a date a couple of weeks ago. Was at the produce stand at a supermarket. Had a 10 minute conversation with an older woman who said, “maybe we should get together sometime. You’re a really witty and I’d like to get know you more.” I agreed, and I planned a picnic date. Turned out she was leaving the area in 6 months for a new job (hundreds of miles away), so I had no interest in carrying it forward because I only want a LTR and don’t do hook ups. I am not afraid of being out of the gene pool or being single the rest of my life. As long as I did it on my terms. If I constantly pursue women and got rejected again and again, I would be very bitter on my death bed.
Randy R. says
I do not have issues with guys pursuing women if they wish to, but I feel the world works best when women take the lead. They bear the ultimate responsibility of bearing kids. A dear lady friend of mine has a 6 month year son based on a fling she had with some guy. Instead of leading the situation, she got suckered in by all the guys lies and charm. A bad boy deluxe.. Turns out he wasn’t divorced yet, that he had two other kids out of wedlock. She gave into his pleas for sex too soon. Then he just took off to Egypt from L.A., and now it is a big court/legal mess. With the child a victim. Guys can escape the responsibilities of rearing children much easier than women can. Despite being an atheist, she couldn’t even “think” of having an abortion. The ties between that baby in her tummy and her were too strong. You can blame her for her misjudgment, but she is the first one to admit that she wasn’t proactive enough in dating this guy and finding out way more about him. She swears she will never date another guy again unless she takes the initiative. She and I agree that the best move in the world that either gender can do to initiate is for the female to hand over a piece of paper with her name and number on it and say: “I really enjoy your company. I’d like to get to know you more. Give me a call sometime.” The ball is in his court, but she has taken the lead in blatantly telling the man she’s interested. The move, most of all, doesn’t rope out introverted men who I believe are much better LTR partners than alpha males (Never confuse them with shy men – introverts are just slower to trust, have fewer but deeper friendships/relationships with people, and don’t like being in large gatherings of people. Shy people wish they could be involved in a social situation that introverts wish to avoid). The world works better that way. And kids grow up better that way.
Timothy Braxton says
I have always said that if women handed over a piece of paper to a guy they’ve known for a bit who they fancy, with their phone # and their name on it, that this is the best way possible to create a happy medium in the dating game. Just give the guy the paper and say, “I am really interested in you and would love to get to know you more. Give me a call sometime.” A middle-aged female dating advisor for women supports this approach. You are still putting the ball in the man’s court. He still has to make the move, but in the meToo age, and also in an age where contrary to popular opinion, many of our greatest innovators, smartest minds and best male relationship partners are introverts (never to be mistaken with shy men – see Dr. Jung on the difference between shyness and introvertedness. Also see the book entitled “Quiet”), this tactic by women gives “permission” for the man to proceed. It also involves them more in the process. I just feel Evan that women have too much to lose in the reproductive game in modern times for women to take a back seat, be chased and be non-proactive. I’m not saying allowing men to be passive, but women need to be more involved. I have a good female friend who got pregnant from a guy, and he just bailed to a foreign nation. Men just have the capability of bailing and being irresponsible in the raising and funding of children than women do. Carrying around that baby for 9 months creates an intense bond. Women need to be more proactive in kicking away the so-called alphas who are just not good for raising kids and having a marriage. If your job is more important than your family, you have it wrong. No one goes to bed saying “I should’ve spent one more day at the office.” I am not encouraging guys to be passive, but I think we have room for women to more proactive without them being desperate or going completely against our biological tendencies (although I will say that evolutionary psychology, for better or worse, is not considered legit science in most psychology departments). Look, I have had 2 different women ask me out of on dates, and it didn’t screw up the relationship dynamic. But I sure as heck paid for the second date of the girl I liked. I think there are gray areas between alpha and beta that people find themselves, and they are not asexuals.
Suzanne R. says
I am in 100% agreement with Timothy Braxton. I don’t agree that 75% of the world contains alpha males, and that 25% contain betas or shy guys. There are in betweeners. I own a business and often go into a local credit union for assistance. Even though I own a business, I wouldn’t call myself an alpha female. I am pretty much a traditional 30 year old girl when it comes to dating. One of the men who works at the credit union is my man. We had a number of conversations over several months. I could tell he was interested in me, and I was seriously interested in him. But like a typical woman i was just too shy to ask him out. Brian is what I call an introverted man, and like Timothy Braxton I recommend that all women and men on this site read the book “The Quiet Rise of Introverts: 8 Practices for Living and Loving in a Noisy World” by Brenda Knowles. It demonstrates that shy men and introverted men are not the same. Brian is very successful. He is just quietly confident. He is also not macho. He likes different things like musicals and collecting stamps and reading psychology books compared to other guys. He later told me that he was not only nervous about asking me out, but he had seen other men at the union ask out women who were business associates and had seen it go badly. One day I just said: “Boy, you are mine.” I handed over my name and smartphone number on it. I told him I found him to be attractive, really smart, attentive and interesting company, and if he ever wanted to get together, give me a call. He called in two days, and behaved in every way that so many women like myself dream about. He turned into my knight in shining armor. He just needed to be thrown a bone. As Timothy implies above, my note gave him permission to pursue me as a woman. This increased his confidence to giant proportions. I really believe this is the man I am going to marry. I have since advised all my girlfriends to do not just totally dismiss guys who you feel are “into you” but won’t ask you out. You never know what’s going on. Also, he’s the first introvert I have ever dated, and I am never felt this emotionally close to a man before, yet felt so secure and protected. I get both things as a girl that I need. Introverted men are totally misunderstand by our society. Believe me, when I handed over that note was handed over, Brian became a different man. Still different from the raging, Donald trump type alphas, but definitely a guy who pursued me. We actually joke about this because he hates it being referred to as “pursuing me.” He just says, all I wanted was to be with you more and more. I never played hard to get or any of that bullcrap.
Anonymous says
Well this is in reply to ‘theonelaterthen’. I do not agree that men who find a woman attractive, want to have Sex with them. In the past couple of years, I have met men at work who flirted with me, wrote me email or instant msg’ed me. Acted like they were in love, pursued me, only for it to lead nowhere. Never got asked out. Mind you, I was only at the job for 2 & half months & at another location for an addl’ 3 & half months. One guy was single and kept in touch with me for months (until I told him not to write to me anymore at home). I had to cut it off. It was all so stupid. The other guy (at the same location) was married–and his marriage was not going well (so he told me) and confided in me a lot of personal information. I loved how he entrusted in me & found me as attractive as I found him. We hugged all the time & kissed a couple of times. But in the End, he was not interested in pursuing anything further. I was Crushed! Because I was hoping to continue seeing him from time to time (as close friends) and maybe one day (when his marriage was over) Get Him! I was so In Love. He was the most Amazing Man. Totally my Dream Guy.
So no, he was not interested in Sex (nor would I have let anything close to that happen considering he was married). The other guy who also worked there, I was not interested in. He was single, & loved writing to me (on company time), but when he started writing me at home (from his job), months later, I put a stop to it. He was not interested in going out, so I did not understand what he wanted. Maybe just bored at work & wanted to write to women. Loser!
Then there was a guy I met at my most recent job. He was single (divorced), & a year out of a live-in relationship in which the girl had moved away. He too acted somewhat interested, asked me a lot of questions, got to know me quite well (as I got to know him too). But after 3 months of working with him & all of us being laid off, he too was not interested in asking me out. We’d exchanged cell phone #’s & email addresses (several people there did), & he did text me for 2 weeks or so, & we talked on the phone too. But one day after insulting me, I asked that he not write me anymore & that was the End of that. He was very disrespectful, & I don’t stand for that.
So from when I last dated in my 20s and 30s, I’ve found that Men have changed. I don’t understand them. What gives? I hope a guy out there in his late 30s, in his 40s, or 50s can reply & tell me what is going on?