Why Are Women Expected to Date Men With a Lower Educational Level?

Why Are Women Expected to Date Men With a Lower Educational Level?

Dear Evan,

I was at a speed dating event last night for the second time. Just like the first time, it was full of smart, pretty, successful women in their thirties and forties and men of similar ages with manual labor jobs (and a few running their own manual labor businesses) but no men of equivalent professional or educational status except for one doctor. Why he was there, I do not know, as he made it clear that he was not really looking to date anyone. He did however buy me a drink in the bar afterwards and asked me what I thought of the event. I said I would be unlikely to go again because I have nothing in common to talk about with the men that I have met at these events.

He proceeded to give me a lecture as to why I shouldn’t automatically dismiss dating the two guys who were responsible for service washes in the launderette as they may be perfectly nice people and that career women in their thirties get what they deserve if they don’t. I am just wondering how many other men think like this? For me, it seems plain common sense that, while professional women with masters degrees may be compatible with men in less successful professions, the guy that left school with no qualifications to work in the launderette is highly unlikely to be a good fit.

It is not the first time that I have come across the attitude that career women deserve to be alone if they don’t want to date men without any education, or men a generation older, or the obese. I am just wondering how many men really think like this.

Fiona

Fiona,

It doesn’t matter how many men think like this.

Just like KC’s email a few weeks ago about how she receives emails from disappointing men she meets online, you’re illustrating an amusing concern with men’s preferences in women.

Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.

My answer to you is largely the same as my answer to her.

Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.

If he is a dishwasher and he finds you pretty, he’s going to ask you out.

If you don’t go out with him because you intimate that you’re “above” him on the dating food chain, it’s predictable that he might lash out at you.

You may be technically correct that he’s not of your social station, but that’s of no concern to the man you’ve just insulted to his face.

Literally, the ONLY thing he can do when you tell him that you have nothing in common (without getting to know him) is tell you that you’re wrong for judging people and that this attitude may come back to haunt you.

Women tend to adhere more to their checklists, which usually call for a man who is just like you, but better. And without your flaws.

He’s right about that. This is one of the big blind spots that women have in dating.

Allow me to explain.

You painted a black and white world, Fiona. It wasn’t that he was less educated than you. It’s that he was a laundry operator. It’s not that a man is older than you, it’s that he’s a generation older than you. It’s not that he’s a few pounds overweight, it’s that he’s obese. All of your examples are extreme, but not all men are extreme examples of anything.

So, to be crystal clear: no one (besides the fat, stupid and elderly) is saying that you have to date the fat, stupid, or elderly.

Got it? Good.

How do I find a man with traits I desireWhat I am saying – and what these men are inartfully suggesting as well – is that you don’t marry a list of traits. You marry a human being. And if you never think outside the box, you may well find yourself standing alone at the end of the dance.

The reason that I call this a blind spot for women is because women tend to adhere more to their checklists, which usually call for a man who is just like you, but better. And without your flaws.

Taller. Richer. Smarter. Funnier. Saner. Sexier.

Alas, men don’t care if you’re taller, richer, smarter, or funnier.

We just want you to think that we’re amazing.

Which is why men can date ANYONE – regardless of education, income, and height – while many women can only date 1 in 1000 men who are 6 feet tall, with a masters degree and a $200,000 income.

So are some men unrealistic in thinking that they deserve a chance with you?

Yes, they are.

Are they also correct in pointing out that they are open to a lot more women than you are open to men, and this may hinder your ability to find lasting love?

Yes, they are.

To your original question, no one is saying (apart from the jilted men) that you deserve to be alone. But I would be remiss if I didn’t pull out the nugget of wisdom from the flawed logic of the laundry operator.

6
2

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Steve

    Fiona,
    Reading between the lines of your post I got the impression that you are a decent just trying to make your way through the world like everyone else. Your choice of words, however, makes you come like a stiff snob.   Being viewed (judged) like that is the reason why many men will not even go near a woman who earns even a little bit more than he does.
    Steve

  2. 2
    helene

    Like many women on this blog, I fall into the category of high-earning, intelligent successful women who have had the experience Fiona and others describe of feeling like I rarely met men my “equal” and got criticised for being too snobby or picky or dismissive when I bemoaned the fact that I got asked out on line by 55 year old overweight bus drivers who couldn’t spell.

    After years of fruitless dating since my divorce, and thanks in no small part to Evan’s advice on this matter, I have now met a wonderful man who I am happily in love with, who wants to marry me. He earns less than I do, has little formal education beyond school and works in farming, so in that respect he perhaps falls into the category of men who for a long time I would have considered “unsuitable.” And yet – he is highly suitable! He is manly, confident, has intelligent and interesting things to say about all aspects of life, is the same age as me (48)sexy, good looking, has no ex wife and kids complicating the picture, has money in the bank…. He is also loving, committed, a good cook and great at DIY.

    Where I think Evan’s advice has helped me is that it has somehow freed me up to give things a try with a man who is not exactly what I thought I was looking for but who has so many good traits that things work really well between us. It took me a long time to come round to the idea that I could potentially have a successful relationship with someone who wasn’t a professional, university-educated type, but through Evan’s repeated message about not looking for a carbon copy of yourself but looking for someone who was loving and marriage minded, I had reached a place where I was at least prepared to consider it when this man came along. He pursued me, he saw the potential in the relationship before I did, is not the least bit intimidated by my income or letters after my name and is very much the man in the relationship, which is important to me.

    I suppose what I’m trying to say is that although its true a lot of the guys you meet at events will not be suitable for you, it is important to be at least open to the possibility that the laundry guy may be your ideal mate. Its hard to get your head round this, and in no way changes the fact that most of these guys (most guys, period!) will not be right for you, but it is possible that one of them might be. Does that mean you have to date every overweight, ageing laundry worker who comes along? Absolutely not!  But if there was a less overweight, kinda cute, younger laundry worker… well, maybe…   

    Anyway, I’ve been looking for an opportunity to thank Evan for the part he has played in helping me to meet my soon-to-be husband, so this seems like a good opportunity: THANK YOU EVAN for opening my mind to this possibility and enabling me to meet someone I would likely have passed up had it not been for your wise words.   
      

    1. 2.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Thank YOU, Helene. Comments like yours make all the hate mail, criticism, and arguments with anonymous strangers worth it. Seriously. Congratulations on your happiness.

    2. 2.2
      Kim

      Firstly, thank you to all.
      Without repeating too much, I agree with the need to be open and to find a partner who compliments one, such as Helene has described. I too, fall into the professional university educated category of woman and would like to think I am reasonably emotionally mature. I thoroughly appreciate Helene’s description of the man she has found. I have a respect for men and have healthy communication and kindness in past relationships (a long marriage without sexual compatibility), so no complaints about men. However, having been in a relationship with a kind and witty man for around four years, I find that I am unable to commit properly. I feel the difference in education and general achievement runs deeper. That is, that there may be a mismatch of compatibility in the long-term. The main issue being a lack of intellectual curiosity and general curiosity in the world. I fell that curiosity drives action to a large extent. I would like this quality in a partner. My partner does have many good qualities (the reason we have lasted this long, along with his determination). He is kind and loving and we just get-on. However, I don’t feel we have much in common. Another big issue that holds me in the relationship is that we have built a hard-to-give-up sexual bond that I feel is quite ideal, and seems to keep growing (we are very compatible in this way). My dilemma is despite the good parts of the relationship, and despite my being open minded about differences in education etc, I still feel I cannot commit in the long-term. I have struggled from the start with what I believe to be a deep-seated incompatibility in the long-term ( but have also found it hard to move-on, due to the good things).
      How can I go-about figuring out whether we are compatible in the long-term? I care deeply (there is quite an attachment), but I have been unable to feel that I could love this man completely. I do feel I understand the difference between ‘in love’ and ‘the commitment to love’.
      Thanks again to all, and Evan for including the subtleties in discussion.

      1. 2.2.1
        ann

        wow, very thoughtfully said.   I can so relate and empathize with you.
        I know that after a time,  and looking within, you will know what to do.  And I am speaking outloud for myself as well. 
        Wishing you good things!
        Ann

  3. 3
    Kathy

    I disagree!  Men are likely more willing to date a larger range of women because they are not as marriage oriented – they will date for sex, or short-term reasons more often than women will – 2)  They are fussy in different ways! – They prefer thinner, more attractive and youthful women, and do not care so much about education and career, because they are not as concerned with intellectual interaction.

    1. 3.1
      Steve

      Yes, How dare men want to date someone they are attracted to! They nerve I tell you. The reason men don’t care about a women’s career or education is because a man supports himself and doesn’t look for someone else to take care of them.
      Men are attracted to women they are psychically attracted to, not women they feel will provide for them.
      How many young men do you see “dating” 80 year old rich women? Now reverse it, how many 80 year old rich men do you see “dating” young beautiful women.

      1. 3.1.1
        Oscar Calme

        Steve, how dare you preach this heresy.  You are in severe danger of being burned at the stake if you continue with this course.  Don’t you know that women who pursue careers and professional qualifications are not projecting their desires onto men.  Whatever, we will just have to remake men to suit what the women want.  Irony off.  Over and out.

      2. 3.1.2
        Dina Strange

        Steve, you are right that men support themselves but i had seen plenty of guys who are looking for women to support them.

        Regarding women looking for someone to support them, u forgot that its’ women who give birth, so naturally they want to make sure that a man can support the child. 

      3. 3.1.3
        Sabrina

        There are some younger men in their 20s who do date much older rich women. They’re usually called gigilos lol

    2. 3.2
      Nicola

      I agree Kathy. I would say that 90% plus of men don’t seem to rate intelligence in a woman. I find that to be quite sad. For me intelligence is important as well as emotional intelligence.
      well I guess stupid is as stupid does, shallow men get shallow women. Then they wonder why they are broken hearted from a woman who cheats on him or takes his money. 

  4. 4
    Fiona

    Congratulations Helene, I am pleased that you have found what you are looking for. All the very best with it.

  5. 5
    Joe

    @ Kathy: if you’ve read any of Evan’s work, you should know that men don’t care about your accomplishments or intellect–what they do care about is how you make them feel.

  6. 6
    Soul

    I, too, followed Evan’a advice and am very happy i did.

    I have been in a relationship with a man one generation older than me and i am the happiest woman in the world, i am so grateful God sent me this wonderful man!!! Of course he is less educated than me (most people on this earth are), but who said education = intelligence? If anything, intelligence in a human being has often been hindered by his/her education…

    My man is smart and generous. His knowledge of art has taught me so much about the beauty of life, nature, and human beings… and his approach to life, as a whole, is extremely inspiring. He has got integrity and he treats me wonderfully… when you encounter sb like this, who care if he does not have a PhD (or a masters, or a BA?) 

    DITCH tHE CHECKLIST !!! Take time to really meet and get to know the person behind the labels !!! 

  7. 7
    Fiona

    Again Soul, I am glad that you found what you were looking for. I think however that I am better judge of what is good for me than anyone else is.

    1. 7.1
      RustyLH

      Translation…I am stubborn and not open to change. I would prefer to remain unhappy with my unrealistic checklist.

      This would be like that guy who is a pig, who insists that he will marry a Playboy Playmate, and he won’t ever settle for anything less. Meanwhile beautiful, worthy women come into his life and he rejects them because they don’t meet his expectations…what he feels he deserves…what he is worth.

      Not to mention the fact that even if a guy who meets your expectations comes along, Mr. Wonderful just might end up having an affair with his secretary. Hey…very accomplished men often feel they are of high value and deserve whatever they want also, and often that is his secretary in his bed.

      Meanwhile, a great guys are trying to get your attention. Hey lady, this is 2014. Stop listening to your biological programming that was not aware of what 2014 was going to be like. Your biological programming is geared for a time when a woman would be totally dependent on a man for her safety, material wealth, etc… That is no longer the case. Your biological programming is no longer working in your favor and is the root of your unhappiness. If you can’t learn to recognize this and learn to circumvent that obsolete programming, then you are looking at a lifetime of unhappiness. Good luck, you are going to need it.

    2. 7.2
      Some Guy

       I am better judge of what is good for me than anyone else is.

      How’s that working out for you?   Unless I missed something, you’re still alone.

       

  8. 8
    Frimmel

    I am willing to date a “larger range of women” because if I stuck with some checklist authored from my fantasies I wouldn’t get dates. Lisa Fremont won’t be walking in a door near me any time soon.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

  9. 9
    Evan Marc Katz

    What, if anything, did you learn from my response to your question, Fiona?

    Because I’m going to suggest that understanding what may be in your blind spot is far more important to you than “how many men think like” the man in your question. 

    If you were a great judge of what is good for you, you would probably not be asking the question. Most of us are very poor choosers until we get it right.

    And people who chose to value intellect more than kindness, or money over character and consistency, often end up choosing educated wealthy men who either don’t want to commit or have trouble staying faithful. Worse, they bemoan their fates by saying “there are no good men” out there, having passed up the good ones for bad ones.

    1. 9.1
      Monique

      Great reply Evan!!

    2. 9.2
      starthrower68

      I dated an intellectual professor with 2 PhD’s.  He was critical, arrogant, condescending, and bossy.  I felt like I had to constantly “on” but could never quite measure up. And for all the head knowledge this man had, he had no wisdom.  Later, I dated a fellow who worked in construction; I felt much more comfortable and able to be myself.  Why that one ended I still do not know and probably never will. But I would still pick the guy who didn’t have the “resume”.

  10. 10
    Soul

    Hello Fiona #8:

    Quite the contrary actually…. you might not be the best judge because of your blind spots (it is the same for everybody) …A little humility goes a long way….

    Please receive a warm and friendly hug; I sincerely hope you’ll soon find what you are looking for! 

  11. 11
    Soul

    Well Fiona,  Evan just posted an excellent reply!!! 

    hugs 

  12. 12
    Ruby

    @ Kathy #4: I agree with you! Men are plenty superficial when they are just looking to casually date, which is the norm for them.
     
    Actually, and ironically, it was the DOCTOR (who showed up at a speed-dating event not really looking to date anyone) who told Fiona not to dismiss the manual laborers. I do object to his comment “that career women in their thirties get what they deserve if they don’t” consider all types, and would urge Fiona to consider the source.
     
    However, I wouldn’t rule out a man who ran his own manual labor business, or a self-made man with with less education, a shorter guy, or whatever. I’ve dated PhDs, but one of my smartest exes was a guy with a high school education. It really depends on the person and their interests and curiosity about the world. 
     
    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having one or two must-haves. If a very intellectual man is important to you, that’s fine, but you my have to compromise on other external traits. Look for the intellect, but don’t neglect the deeper layers of kindness and integrity.

    1. 12.1
      RustyLH

      @ Ruby #12

      You said, “I do object to his comment “that career women in their thirties get what they deserve if they don’t” consider all types, and would urge Fiona to consider the source.”

      He was 100% right. But, that goes for everyone. We all get what we deserve when we try to go against what really works. If a 60 year old man thinks he is going to find love in an 18 year old girl, he gets what he deserves when 5 years later she leaves and takes him to the cleaners in the divorce, if it takes that long.

      We could go on and on with that but what he was saying is that if the woman creates an unrealistic checklist, one that excludes the majority of men, then they have only themselves to blame when they are 45 to 50, no marriage, no kids, etc…

      The truth is, there are many books and self help seminars for women that are downright damaging to women. I have seen some that actually encourage women to create lists and be so picky that they will never be able to find a man that fits the bill.

      Here is a gem from Good Will Hunting. It has to do with the fact that none of us are perfect, but that the imperfections are the gems that make relationships memorable.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPOpk-4AqZQ

      1. 12.1.1
        Margaret

        Hey Rusty,
        It is posts like yours that make me so grateful that I have chosen to exit the market at 53.  Face it, you guys need us much more than we need you. I take care of people all day long in my job as a health care professional. I don’t want to take care of some effing loser when I come home at night.
        Just because men are such losers does not mean we should settle for you.  I never had kids (my choice) but I know many women who chose to go to a sperm bank because the quality of men in America is so woefully low. I applaud their choice.
        Men do not have a clue in this country.

        1. RustyLH

          If that was supposed to make me feel bad, it doesn’t. If my post above yours made you that mad, thank you for doing the men of America a favor by removing yourself from the dating pool. If something in my other posts made you that mad, don’t know what to tell you. Life isn’t about men just killing themselves to please ungrateful women. So long before you were glad you chose to opt out, I had already opted out of marrying unrealistic, ungrateful American woman. Having a 6 out of 10 chance of divorce isn’t my cup of tea. I like better odds.

        2. RustyLH

          Oh, and I have to correct you. No, we don’t need you more. Thanks to feminists and how they have transformed this country, we DO NOT need you. We were raised to do our own laundry, cook our own food, clean our own homes, etc.. So there is only one thing we actually need you for…procreation. Sex? Sorry, don’t actually need you for that. Not in a relationship anyway. Yeah for women giving it away for free. Seems sexual liberation was actually to men’s benefit, not women’s. Companionship? We can get that from friends and family. Already covered the stereotypical women’s chores that are now no longer just women’s chores.

          In exchange for rejecting you women, we now no longer have to worry that all of that work we put into it will one day be enjoyed by some other man as she divorces, and uses the kids to rape the man, taking his house, and a huge chunk of his money.

          Plus…100% less drama. Nobody complaining because we want to do what we want to do. We can play a video game with some friends. We can go hunting, We can go to the races. We can go mountain biking and actually do the fun tails that offer a bit of scarey to get our adrenaline going. We can sleep in on a weekend as long as we want. No honey-do list that we are made to feel guilty about while her honey-do list has seen even less movement.

          Face it, so long as women keep giving up sex before marriage, what incentive do men have to get married? Oh hey! I get to marry the woman who has had 30+ partners. No thanks. I like the fact that Asian women, so long as you don’t pick a prostitute, have had very few lovers.

        3. ann

          Margaret, I agree with you and empathize b/c I’m going thru the SAME things.    Very nice job verbalizing the epidemic of what’s happening with the attitude and quality of men lately!!!!
          Wishing all of us good things.
           
          Ann 

  13. 13
    Maria

    Evan,
    I do not understand one thing. You said:
    “Alas, men don’t care if you’re taller, richer, smarter, or funnier. We just want you to think that we’re amazing. ”
    However, these re the qualities most men look for in a woman, can you explain this??

    1. 13.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Maria, I don’t understand your question. Can you please rephrase so I can clarify?

    2. 13.2
      Clarence

      I think the author was trying to point out that men are more concerned with being respected and admired by their partners than more physical attributes. For most men, physical appearance, intelligence (within reason), and personal wealth are going to come second to the feeling of being loved by someone we can respect or love. A man isn’t going to continue dating a millionaire supermodel if she’s constantly mocking/emasculating him.

  14. 14
    Nadia

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and get Fiona’s back, at least a little.  The doctor at the speed dating event who lectured Fiona sounded like an ass. A professional woman in her thirties does NOT need to date a service washer at a launderette if she doesn’t want to. And no disrespect to the service washer, but odds are, they don’t have much in common for all sorts of valid reasons. Socio- economics influence our cultural experiences, and consequently our interests. The things we have in common with others is what adds to our attraction of others. The doctor implied that she didn’t have the room to be picky in this department, based on her age. It was ridiculous of him at best. That aside, Fiona, don’t be afraid to date someone without a college degree. There are PLENTY of good men who are motivated, successful, intelligent, kind and sexy without that piece of paper. Soul is right: ditch the labels and get to know someone as a person before you write them off. 

  15. 15
    Goldie

    The problem with checklists is, it’s so difficult to find someone who matches all the criteria, that by the time you do, you’re ready to overlook this man’s personality flaws, just because he was so hard to come by and you may never find another MBA six feet tall, no extra weight, your exact age, that lives five miles from you and makes six figures. So you try to ignore the facts that he still hasn’t set his divorce date with his ex-wife, or that he’s a control freak, or that he is leaning the very opposite of you in politics and religion and you argue about that each time you meet, or that he’s a pretentious douche, or that he is boring as hell and you have nothing in common. (That last one, happens more often than you’d imagine.)
     
    The first man I dated after my divorce, checked off every item on my list, up to and including the love of classical music. He also told me a story on our third date about how, when he walks his kids to school in the morning and sees someone run a stop sign, he jumps out in front of that car, stops it, and yells at the driver while his kids stand on the sidewalk and watch. Same date, he brought me home, parked in the driveway with his engine running, his headlights shining into my neighbor’s bedroom windows (at midnight), and tried to make out with the car still in drive and his foot on the brake. Charming. I stuck it out with him for another month because I was afraid I wouldn’t find another, six-foot-tall, liberal agnostic who’s working on his PhD. Then I finally came to my senses and ran off to date an old friend of mine, who never went to college, wasn’t liberal, didn’t like classical music, and carried about a hundred pounds of extra weight, and had an awesome time.
     
    That got me thinking. I realized that matching every item on my checklist is not a guarantee that the man will have something in common with me or that we’ll have a good time together. Now my approach is that it is okay to have some kind of a checklist, but they aren’t carved in stone, and slight deviations from the list on one or more items are okay. Nobody says to date a bum off the street. But an intelligent, successful man who hasn’t completed his college degree is perfectly okay.
     
    The man I’m seeing now, while exceeding my expectations education-wise, definitely missed a few items on my list, and I on his. (He probably hadn’t counted on dating an immigrant, for one thing!) But we have a great time together and that’s what matters.
     
     

  16. 16
    Jackie Holness

    Being too picky gets you picked over…not saying that you shouldn’t have standards, but the standards should be realistic considering all factors involved…
     

  17. 17
    BeenThruTheWars

    My husband has less education than I do, is from a lower-social-class neighborhood, is much less sophisticated in many ways than I am, is less ambitious, has no interest in current events or the broader world around him, isn’t well-read, has siblings who are unemployed or low-skilled workers – and yet, he and I are perfect together. He treats me like gold, makes me laugh and draws me out of my head, where I would prefer to live most of the time.  We’ll be married 7 years this coming New Year’s Day.  (Time flies, huh, Evan?)  Evan is SO right about the “checklist” nonsense.  Fiona, you might want to read Lori Gottlieb’s excellent book, “Marry Him” if you are at all interested in getting married and having a family one day. It’s a real wake-up call for us “perfectionists.”  
     

  18. 18
    Michelle

    @2, Helene, good for you, congrats!  We’ve have a similar experience.  As a result of Evan’s thoughts on broadening our horizons, I made a concerted effort to date all kinds of different men…from really good looking, to highly educated and successful and/or older.  What that did is allow me to more clearly see why my current boyfriend is a good fit for me and why all those men were all good men, just not good partners/boyfriends–for whatever reason.  He is a professional, I have a BA, he never went to college.  I’m more interested in the world around me, he’s not, but can still talk intelligently, which I like.  We both like sports, etc., etc.  I really get this concept that no one is perfect…there is no perfect man, and there’s no perfect for me…there are just good men who can make good boyfriends that we can partner with perhaps in marriage.

    If you want someone that’s more educated,.  Be careful what you wish for and good luck!  

    P.S.  I think that doctor saw exactly what you were about, and challenged you on it.  He did you a favor :) 

  19. 19
    Catherine

    I agree with KATHY4 ”  Men are likely more willing to date a larger range of women because they are not as marriage oriented – they will date for sex, or short-term reasons more often than women will – 2) They are fussy in different ways! – They prefer thinner, more attractive and youthful women, and do not care so much about education and career, because they are not as concerned with intellectual interaction””

    Evan says men just want to date women who make them feel good about themselves. Hmm, now if a size 16 woman thought a man was wonderful    I doubt she would make him feel wonderful. What would make him feel wonderful would be a a very attractive, size 8-10 woman at least 10, maybe 20 years younger.

      

    1. 19.1
      Ladd MaccAodh

      I’d agree, though I would not condemn it.  Truth is, if the other person doesn’t turn you on, it’s hard for anyone with a sex drive to want to be more than friends.  Goes for men and women, even if what turns us on works differently.
      A man’s sex drive doesn’t call for perfection, but a fat woman who treats me like a king still doesn’t turn me on.  Can’t change that, and I won’t apologize for it.  Same for a woman much older than I am, just doesn’t work.  I could certainly be friends with a fat or old woman, but it’s not going to work as a relationship.  In turn, I wouldn’t expect a woman to find me attractive if I let myself get fat and grew out a neckbeard.  What kind of entitled jerk would I have to be to expect women to ignore my neckbeard and love me for my brain, when there are so many equally-smart men without repellant grooming habits?
      You have to optimize what you’re working with – either find people who are into what you look like, or improve what you look like.  A solid resume just doesn’t turn a man on, and there is nothing wrong with that (ask me in a few decades whether that changes after his sex drive dies; I’m not in a position to know yet).

  20. 20
    Fiona

    I do understand what you are saying Evan and I am a bit flexible. Just about every man is taller than me so that is not so much of an issue and I don’t mind someone being a bit less successful, a bit less intellectual, a bit less well educated, a bit older (even all in the same package). However, it would be hard for me to accept anyone that didn’t at least meet those criteria. I do not value intellect over kindness – I do think that both are important. Nor do I think earnings are more important than character but I do think being able to have a reasonable standard of living is important. How flexible does one really have to be before feeling that you have settled for a man or a life you don’t really want?

    1. 20.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Catherine – I would think that it goes without saying that a man (or a woman) has to find his partner physically attractive in order to forge a relationship, so your point is kind of moot.

      Give a man identical twin sisters and he’s going to choose the one who is fun, easygoing, and makes him feel the best about himself, not the one who is constantly criticizing him for his flaws.

      @Fiona – “How flexible does one really have to be…?” Well, since there’s a lid for every pot, if you haven’t found a lid, you’re either not trying on enough or dismissing one that fits. Once I learned to let go of my list (East Coast, Jewish, liberal, Ivy League), I was able to find a life that I DID want. You don’t seem to be able/willing to do the same. So all I can say is that you should keep on dating and consider the wisdom of the women who posted on this thread…

  21. 21
    Catherine

    ps. why is this woman going to speed dating events that attract men without degrees? I would think most speed dating companies offer a variety of events according to age groups, interests, educational level etc

    1. 21.1
      RustyLH

      Why would they do that? You are looking at it from your perspective only. Remember…men don’t care if you have a degree. So would men be happy if they paid a company to attend an event and only educated women were there, and he didn’t feel any connection with any of them?

      It seems the problem is that women are looking for somebody just like herself, but men are not looking for somebody just like himself. Women are looking for somebody who meets them on every level. Men are looking for somebody who compliments them on certain levels.

      Women really are at a disadvantage. Their biological programming tells them to test every male and if he is not equal to her or superior to her on every level, he is unworthy. This programming serves a purpose. She has limited opportunities to get her genes into the next generation, so her programming tells her to make the most of those limited opportunities. Get the best she can. Those damaging seminars I mentioned above tell you to make those checklists. They tell you to approach getting a man the way you approach every other challenge. But that is horrible advice. Checklists make it harder to find a good man, not easier.

      See, like I said, women are at a disadvantage, and those seminars do not address that disadvantage, they make the problem worse. The problem is that men don’t play by your rules, and the never will. You might go to lunch with a few of your equally accomplished female friends. An attractive male waiter about the same age as you might be the one who waits on you. He might find you very attractive, and smile warmly at you, in a manner that invites interaction. Your likely reaction? “Fat chance loser.” At best, if he is very very very attractive, you might want to slip him your number on the sly and keep an affair with him a secret, or you will make sure your friends know that it is just about sex because he is so fine, but there is no future because you are too good for him.

      However, completely reverse the situation with single accomplished male at lunch with equally accomplished male friends, and an attractive female waiter seems open to interaction, he will be more than OK with getting her number.. Might even ask for it in front of his friends, and ACTUALLY BE PROUD that his friends saw him score the number. He isn’t going to be embarrassed to bring her around his friends if he starts dating. He isn’t going to feel like he has to make excuses for her lack of accomplishments.

      So women really are at a disadvantage to men. They broke down the corporate boardroom doors, smashed the glass ceiling, and now graduate with college degrees at a higher rate than men. So right there, everything else being equal, they are at a disadvantage. More women with degrees than men means that some women won’t get a man as educated if they all find mates.

      But men don’t ply by women’s rules. So now you can take a huge chunk of those men with degrees and remove them because they don’t require a woman to have a degree, so they as, or more likely to marry the waitress as a woman with a college degree. Look at any online dating site, and you will see that men often don’t list any educational requirements, while women almost always do.

      1. 21.1.1
        Monique

        To #21.1

        Went straight to the point you are so right. 

  22. 22
    Karmic Equation

    There are so many good, intelligent men out there who may not be highly educated (“book smart”) but are very street smart. And street smart men are just as awesome and sometimes even more intelligent than the book smart ones.

    Character and spirit are the qualities that should top any checklist, if you choose to have one. And if you judge the book by it’s cover you’re likely passing up many good men who would have treasured and adored you in a way that your fantasy-inspired alpha, well-educated, well-earning man never could.

    1. 22.1
      starthrower68

      Well for once we can agree :-)

  23. 23
    JB

    Aside from the “laundry guy” there are plenty of professions full of intelligent good earning men that don’t have bachelors degree’s. All of these men are not idiots because they didn’t go to college but they may have went to trade school. Just as every person that does have a degree isn’t intelligent or have common sense. Hundreds of thousands of men!! Some (not all) of these men may be great matches for Fiona or others like her. 

    Mechanics
    Electricians
    Plumbers
    Carpenters
    Construction workers
    Contractors
    Heating/AC  

    And the list goes on………………….. and I know they’ll always be snobby women that say “Ewwwww, those men get dirty at work and do manual labor”. Yep, they do while making a good living some 80-100K.

    I’ve been putting I have a bachelor’s degree for 3 yrs now in my profile even though I don’t. (Mainly because everyone “below” me at my profession has one and after years of being honest and putting “some college” and never knowing how many were’nt returning my emails because of it.) Not one woman I’ve dated from “some college” to “Master’s Degreed” teachers etc… in the last 3 yrs has ever asked me about it or known the wiser. NOT ONE!

    1. 23.1
      starthrower68

      I was married to an English major that didn’t like to get his hands dirty. I come from a more blue collar type family, so his mother never thought I was good enough for him.  After we divorced, I did earn my bachelor’s and master’s, but not because I wanted to out man men, but as a single parent, I wanted to be able to get to a level in my career that I could provide for our kids on my own.  He has since gone on to marry a PhD who leads him.  I guess it works for them, but I am perfectly fine dating a man with or without degrees or letters after his name.  There are good and bad actors with and without a college education.  

  24. 24
    K

    @Fiona, I don’t think you have a ridiculous list of wants.  Especially as you seem more flexible about some things such as height, age and looks (I’m assuming on the last).  I would suggest (and this is what I am doing) to just keep engaging in life (online and off) and keep tweaking things that matter less to you.  I have a well educated and successful friend your age and she didn’t even care about the things that you care about and still struggled until this year.  Even people who don’t care about successful men often struggle.  She is now seriously dating an ex who has been a good friend for many years.  The dating non-college men issue isn’t really relevant for me.  I’m not sure of the age of the other commenters or where they live.  Living in a highly educated area if I knocked on 10 random doors I would be hard pressed to find someone without a college degree.  Luckily it is the bare minimum around here (that doesn’t mean everyone actually is a professional though).  I read this blog not to do an entire overhaul on my view (I don’t think Evan did that either), but to question some of my wants and try to open my mind on some of them.  I definitely am less picky that I was 5 years ago, although some of my wants are going to stay.

  25. 25
    Karmic Equation

    @Fiona

    “How flexible does one really have to be before feeling that you have settled for a man or a life you don’t really want?”

    I think you need to ask yourself if you had to choose between having a man who makes you feel good about yourself or having a life you feel good about, but not both, which would you choose?

    Answer that honestly and you should have a clearer vision of what’s important to you and gameplan for that.

    There is no wrong answer. But you really do need to be honest with yourself about what is more important to you. Life or lifestyle?

  26. 26
    marymary

    Well if I was at such an event and a doctor bought me a drink I’d be telling him I was having a great evening and enjoying meeting new people. And did he have any   single friends who WERE looking to date? 

  27. 27
    Tom10

    Soul # 7
    You said: “of course he is less educated than me (most people on this earth are)”

    And then you tell Fiona (#11) that “a little humility goes a long way…”

    Ha, that made me chuckle :)

  28. 28
    Jennifer

    JB #26
    Women haven’t asked because they probably figured a 50-something year old man ( or whatever age you’re using on your profile these days) would not be lying about his degree. The fact that you’ve run across women that have given you the benefit of the doubt doesn’t mean that you should feel proud of getting over on them.

    1. 28.1
      Celia

      I am attracted to men with good character – but that is not receiving much airplay on this channel.

      1. 28.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        All people are attracted to people with good character. But if that were the ONLY reason people dated, then there should be NO pictures on ANY dating site… and you would already be in a relationship. There are plenty of fat ugly men with great character looking to have a relationship with you.

  29. 29
    Christina

    I’ll chime in here as another woman who’s found happiness with a less-educated man. My husband is a truck driver with a bachelor’s degree (I have a master’s) The difference in education is just about completely irrelevant. He’d intelligent, a great conversationalist, and we never run out of things to talk about. I think it’s a mistake for any woman to rule a man out just based on his education. There’s way more to a great relationship than having a lot of things in common. 

  30. 30
    Ileana

    @Goldie #17:  Your first paragraph summed up exactly how i feel about the list. I am so trying to fight my willingness to overlook personality flaws just because he meets most of the criteria. But it’s so dang hard! Whenever i put my foot in the door, there will always be this annoying little voice in my head saying ‘Well heck, you aren’t perfect either. So what if he is a control freak/arrogant snob/wise-ass etc’. I always end up feeling such remorse. 

    ‘(He probably hadn’t counted on dating an immigrant, for one thing!)’
     
    Ugh, i SO get what you mean by that! I’m happy it worked for you, but in my case… not so much. Or even better: not at all. It is so annoying. Every time i find a ‘decent’ guy (as in, someone who matches most of my things on my really reasonable checklist) and then he finds out i’m an eastern European immigrant, he either:

    a)pulls away (although he was initially attracted to me) 
    b)immediately starts having the ‘my place or your place’ attitude (if you know what i mean).

    This makes me so frustrated! I hate the awkwardness that always follows! What bothers me even more is that i haven’t figured out a way to deal with this yet!  If guys in college behave like this, what should i expect in a few years time? Grrrrrrr!
       

    1. 30.1
      RustyLH

      I simply don’t understand that, but then, I can understand that not all men are the same. While I was very interested in getting out of my hometown to see the world, my brother in law actually passed up an opportunity to have his own business because he didn’t want to leave home. He would be happy if he never saw another state. I hated the fact that growing up, I hadn’t seen much of the world…my state (Ohio) and two neighboring states (Michigan and Pennsylvania). Now I’ve seen many many countries on every continent, and also seen 42 of the states. I’ve climbed Mt. Fuji, and Masada…places I never thought I would see as a child.

      A woman telling me that she was an immigrant would actually be a good thing. Different cultures would not bother me. It would be about how we connected as people, two individuals. Maybe some guys simply fear what they don’t know, while for me, it piques my curiosity. One cat prefers hiding under the bed, in his favorite and familiar spot, while another sits in the window, wishing he could get out and explore. If you find a lot of men rejecting you for that reason, it might be odd luck that keeps putting you in proximity to the cats that want to hide under the bed, instead of the window cats.

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