Why Are Women Expected to Date Men With a Lower Educational Level?

Why Are Women Expected to Date Men With a Lower Educational Level?

Dear Evan,

I was at a speed dating event last night for the second time. Just like the first time, it was full of smart, pretty, successful women in their thirties and forties and men of similar ages with manual labor jobs (and a few running their own manual labor businesses) but no men of equivalent professional or educational status except for one doctor. Why he was there, I do not know, as he made it clear that he was not really looking to date anyone. He did however buy me a drink in the bar afterwards and asked me what I thought of the event. I said I would be unlikely to go again because I have nothing in common to talk about with the men that I have met at these events.

He proceeded to give me a lecture as to why I shouldn’t automatically dismiss dating the two guys who were responsible for service washes in the launderette as they may be perfectly nice people and that career women in their thirties get what they deserve if they don’t. I am just wondering how many other men think like this? For me, it seems plain common sense that, while professional women with masters degrees may be compatible with men in less successful professions, the guy that left school with no qualifications to work in the launderette is highly unlikely to be a good fit.

It is not the first time that I have come across the attitude that career women deserve to be alone if they don’t want to date men without any education, or men a generation older, or the obese. I am just wondering how many men really think like this.

Fiona

Fiona,

It doesn’t matter how many men think like this.

Just like KC’s email a few weeks ago about how she receives emails from disappointing men she meets online, you’re illustrating an amusing concern with men’s preferences in women.

Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.

My answer to you is largely the same as my answer to her.

Men do what they want. They don’t do what you want.

If he is a dishwasher and he finds you pretty, he’s going to ask you out.

If you don’t go out with him because you intimate that you’re “above” him on the dating food chain, it’s predictable that he might lash out at you.

You may be technically correct that he’s not of your social station, but that’s of no concern to the man you’ve just insulted to his face.

Literally, the ONLY thing he can do when you tell him that you have nothing in common (without getting to know him) is tell you that you’re wrong for judging people and that this attitude may come back to haunt you.

Women tend to adhere more to their checklists, which usually call for a man who is just like you, but better. And without your flaws.

He’s right about that. This is one of the big blind spots that women have in dating.

Allow me to explain.

You painted a black and white world, Fiona. It wasn’t that he was less educated than you. It’s that he was a laundry operator. It’s not that a man is older than you, it’s that he’s a generation older than you. It’s not that he’s a few pounds overweight, it’s that he’s obese. All of your examples are extreme, but not all men are extreme examples of anything.

So, to be crystal clear: no one (besides the fat, stupid and elderly) is saying that you have to date the fat, stupid, or elderly.

Got it? Good.

How do I find a man with traits I desireWhat I am saying – and what these men are inartfully suggesting as well – is that you don’t marry a list of traits. You marry a human being. And if you never think outside the box, you may well find yourself standing alone at the end of the dance.

The reason that I call this a blind spot for women is because women tend to adhere more to their checklists, which usually call for a man who is just like you, but better. And without your flaws.

Taller. Richer. Smarter. Funnier. Saner. Sexier.

Alas, men don’t care if you’re taller, richer, smarter, or funnier.

We just want you to think that we’re amazing.

Which is why men can date ANYONE – regardless of education, income, and height – while many women can only date 1 in 1000 men who are 6 feet tall, with a masters degree and a $200,000 income.

So are some men unrealistic in thinking that they deserve a chance with you?

Yes, they are.

Are they also correct in pointing out that they are open to a lot more women than you are open to men, and this may hinder your ability to find lasting love?

Yes, they are.

To your original question, no one is saying (apart from the jilted men) that you deserve to be alone. But I would be remiss if I didn’t pull out the nugget of wisdom from the flawed logic of the laundry operator.

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Comments:

  1. 151
    Soul

    Reddy #163

    Either you are arguing just for the sake of arguing (which is extremely annoying and totally unattractive for a (smart))
    or….
    you just don’t get it, i.e. you do not understand the nuances…. 

  2. 152
    Reddy

    Evan, once again you read things in my post which are not there so these things come from you, not from me. I don’t look down on nurses at all and that is nowhere written in my post! I look down on the man who automatically presumes that the nurses are so much kinder and warmer than the female doctors on the basis of how they interact with him in an environment where both are simply doing their – different – job. 

    I get that you give advice here to men but I and other women are telling you that it does not work for us. I know most “dating doctors” are speaking to women about what they have to do to make a man love them, which is because women are more inclined to look for advice and to do some introspection. I think every mature human being is capable of introspection and change, also men, so why should women do all the heavy lifting? 

    A man has to earn my admiration and caring and unfortunately I meet very few who do. I read what you wrote on the website of Rory Raye and it made my hair stand up how you listed all your bad characteristics and went on to tell how your wife was cool about them. I can more or less imagine what kind of person you are, you are probably very witty and entertaining but also pretty selfish and arrogant. Now your wife is cool about it. But when I meet a guy like you he does not awaken admiration and caring.  

    I think men often don’t get admiration and caring because they don’t make women like giving it. I will in any case not give it to a man who comes across as selfish.
         
       

     

    1. 152.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Reddy – This is the last I’m going to post in response to you. You will not be allowed to respond in return:

      You said a few things that were completely wrong, but one thing that was completely right.

      What you got wrong:

      “Why should women do all the heavy lifting?” I’ve not once said that there aren’t a hundred things that men can do to improve in relationships. But if we go down that road, what exactly does this mean? It means understanding women – what they want, what they need, what makes them feel safe, heard and understood. Right?

      So my advice to you is how to understand men – what they want, what they need, what makes them feels safe, heard and understood. And the evidence is in. Men want women who MAKE THEM FEEL GOOD.

      Which is why your sarcastic statement, “But he is not interested in them as persons, he is just interested in what they can offer him” is literally the ONLY thing you have gotten right so far.

      Kudos.

      Now, as for the insulting part of your last post: “I read what you wrote on the website of Rory Raye and it made my hair stand up how you listed all your bad characteristics and went on to tell how your wife was cool about them. I can more or less imagine what kind of person you are, you are probably very witty and entertaining but also pretty selfish and arrogant. Now your wife is cool about it. But when I meet a guy like you he does not awaken admiration and caring.”

      You can’t imagine anything about me, you ignoramus.

      I was up since 7am with my two year old daughter while my wife slept.
      When she woke up at 10, I held my newborn son for a half-hour while my wife put on her makeup.

      Selfish, I know.

      The only way I’m arrogant is in presuming that I know what men want from partners – and yes, I get pretty pissy when a woman tells me that I’m WRONG – that men ACTUALLY want women who are difficult, cold, argumentative, and clueless about how to make a man happy. I’m arrogant about doing what I do for a living because I’ve been doing it for ten years and I’m really successful at it. And then, I’m supposed to be a bigger person by accepting your insults on my blog? Please.

      But before I go (and you do, too), one piece of dating advice:

      My wife – by accepting and loving me despite my flaws – gets the most passionately devoted husband and father in the entire world. She feels safe, heard, and understood. She feels loved, cherished and beautiful. She knows that I’m never going to leave her and that I will do anything in my power to provide for my family. This is what you clearly don’t get, Reddy – that the key to connecting with men is to love, accept, and support them – not endlessly criticize them because they don’t meet up to your standards.

      I’m in a happy marriage and I give relationship advice that has helped thousands of women around the world find love.

      If you don’t want to listen, go find a blog that validates your world view that the secret to relationships is for men to start valuing difficult women, which seems to be all that you’re advocating.

      Once again, no need to reply. This is my house and you’ve been impolite to your host and his wife.

      1. 152.1.1
        Grace McJohnson

        Evan,
        You’re a frickin’ badass.
        I am a pastor who’s still learning to disintegrate her pride and continue to love my husband for who he is. It’s an ongoing battle-pride and self-centerdness are destructive things. But there is hope and I appreciate the no-nonsense way you monitor comments and defend your stance. 
        Keep up the good work!
         
        PS. Though it is a distinctly Christian perspective, the first chapter of the book The Meaning of Marriage by Timothy Keller is one of the most insightful reflections on why so many of us don’t find lasting love. That book is the reason I decided to marry my very “off the checklist” boyfriend. I still can’t believe I almost missed out on him.
         
        Peace!
         
         

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Thank you. Being called a frickin’ badass by a Christian pastor is about as high a compliment I can ever hope to receive. Appreciate your worldview and believe, despite my atheism, that religion has a lot of great lessons for us, especially in terms of humility and compassion.

  3. 153
    Fiona

    Reddy, I think the point that Evan is making is that we all have flaws and in the end we all have to compromise somehow. It is up to each individual to decide what they are prepared to compromise on e.g. an ultra religious person may have stringent requirements on religion, a smart woman may have stringent requirements on intelligence but be a bit more relaxed about age, nationality etc. 

  4. 154
    Morris

    Reddy. I think you’ll continue to believe what you want to believe. However in my circle of friends successful men are not having problems finding women to date or marry. So much so that a good deal of them are not in a hurry to marry even as they approach their 40’s. I don’t think men or women are at fault. But if things aren’t working it would seem you can do one of two things. Somehow change the mindset of everyone else to get your desired result. Or change your own.

    I asked a successful friend if he would marry an alpha female. (He’s married to a Montessori teacher.) He said no. He wants someone to complement him. Someone that brings something different to the table. Someone he won’t have to schedule time to be with. I think that’s part of the problem. Successful men are looking for their better half. Not their mirror image.

  5. 155
    RW

    So much of this discussion has centred around “success” and “successful women”.  I know success is subjective and different for each person but in general, I’m curious to know what most of you define as success.  Annual income over 100K?  Over 200K?  More?  Having advanced degrees?  I’m just trying to establish a general baseline for the discussion surrounding successful women.

    1. 155.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @RW – There is no general baseline except for this:

      If a woman makes $100K, her husband has to make more.
      If a woman makes over $200K, her husband has to make more.
      If a woman has a Masters degree, her husband has to have at least a Masters degree.

      And so on.

      Men are not burdened by these problems, because we choose women not for their degrees or money but because of how women make us feel – trusted, noble, sexy, funny. And if you give TED talks and rake in a million a year, it’s just an added bonus.

  6. 156
    Fiona

    Morris, I find such comments simply unhelpful. As a successful woman I am a little tired of being told successful woman aren’t going to bring something to the table. Utter nonsense I’m afraid and for every successful guy that automatically assumes we won’t without trying thankfully there is one that doesn’t make silly assumptions. 

  7. 157
    Senior Lady Vibe

    @Goldie #60  “So do you like it here in the US or would you rather go back home?” Not proud of my reaction, I told him I had to go, said good-bye and hung up, because I really didn’t know what to say to this.”
    This seems to me to be a natural interest, if somewhat awkwardly worded question.  I’d probably just answer it in a matter-of-fact way:  “I’m now an American citizen so I think of the U.S. as my home. I’ve lived here for 15 years [or however long] and I plan to spend the rest of my life here but I visit [birth country] every three or four years [or whenever]  Is all of your family from?[guy’s city]

  8. 158
    Fiona

    Evan I think 172 shows just how subjective success is. I know some women who do define success that way.

    My definition is probably a bit wider as I tend  to define success by reference to the general population e.g. I would see an army captain as a fairly successful educated person although he probably earns a fair bit less than me and is less likely to have a Masters. My definition of success does not mean that someone should be a CEO.

    I would love to say that all that should matter is how a man makes you feel. Perhaps I am just practical but money issues do seem to be the main cause of divorce and I just can’t see how people make things work on very low incomes without a lot of worry.

  9. 159
    Morris

    Fiona, there is no advice in the world that would apply to every person in the world.  Sorry you don’t find it helpful.  But just to be clear.  I never said successful women don’t bring something to the table.  They clearly do.  All I’m saying is that to many successful men your degrees and financial success don’t play nearly as big a role as successful women think it should or wish it did.  That’s just the way it is.

    It’s the OTHER things you bring to the table that will attract him.  If you have the other qualities he desires I’m sure your degrees and financial success will just be icing on the cake.

    I think it irks many successful woman that given two kind, loving, funny and intelligent woman.  If one was also young and pretty while the other was financially successful with a degree from a prestigious college.  A successful man would probably choose the young and pretty one.  Men and women value many of the same things.  We also value some different things.  Deal with it.

    I would never ask you or any other successful woman to compromise.  I would never ask a successful man to compromise either.  Heck I wouldn’t tell anyone to compromise.  Know your competition.  Know what your ideal person wants.  Know supply and demand.  If for some reason your criteria creates a small pool of eligible people.  Man/woman-up and live with results.  If you want to change the results you can either change so YOU have the values THEY want.  Or you can change your criteria to expand your pool of eligible people.  It’s not rocket science.

  10. 160
    Rochelle

    #110 Ruby– re: men on dating sites who list the education level they prefer in women, yeah I do think men are more wary of being seen as a financial caretaker these days. It is also possible  these men would choose a woman with a degree who embraces her feminine energy over one who isn’t educated and equally embraces her feminine side, since they would see the education as a bonus. But they   won’t fall in love with   women because of their degree. So there’s still a chance that the guy who says in his profile that a woman must have her masters and a certain income could end up with one who has her bachelors and lower income, if he feels better around her than the one with the masters, even though his profile asked for a “masters”.   
     
     Re compromise: I don’t feel it’s necessary to date whomever regardless of profession so I really don’t see myself ending up with a laundry guy. But think of it this way, one of my friends married a construction worker, while she has a high profile federal job as a civil engineer, and manages several projects for the city.   But she lets him be a man, and he lets her be a woman, that’s why they are still together. She doesn’t try to run him like she runs things at work and he makes her feel safe.    The  guy  also happens to be pretty good looking, plus he has the  alpha masculine energy that most of us women desire, intelligent and he’s hardworking. His income is lower than hers but he doesn’t leave it up to her to take care of everything.  And despite the fact they have different education levels, they have a lot of shared values and support each other. She’s the type of woman who never had trouble finding a boyfriend despite her success and large income.  She didn’t have to do the “dating game” a lot because while she’s extremely confident and successful, she’s open and naturally knows how to embrace her feminine playful side around men.
     
    the point in compromise is to just see how things turn out when we let go of some of that “checklist”. Compromise doesn’t mean  we have a masters degree  but should settle for the chronically unemployed dude who plays video games all day, lives in his mother’s basement and has no direction in life. lol There’s  the the grey area between the black and white..which seems to be missed in a lot of these posts. I’ve seen it happen  so many times, that once we test the waters and try men they wouldn’t have dated because of that particular item on the checklist, we are more likely to  find someone meant to be.

  11. 161
    marymary

    I don’t understand why it’s to so difficult to understand that men want to be loved and cherished. That’s what I want for myself. I find that message reassuring, not threatening. If I love and cherish my boyfriend we will build a connection that can’t be just thrown away and replaced.
    if someone is with you for your looks, or job or whatever, surely that puts you in a very insecure position. There will always be someone more intelligent, more beautiful, more successful, or younger. If not today, tomorrow. If not tomorrow, then ten years.
    why fight for that? (and so unpleasantly!)
     

  12. 162
    Aisling

    Can’t help but wonder what Evan’s take is on the whole General Petraeus affair.  The younger woman is not only beautiful, but an overachiever and reputedly very aggressive and ambitious.

    1. 162.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      There’s not much that anyone can say about the Petraeus affair because a) we don’t really know anything and b) one incident doesn’t necessarily mean much of anything.

      However, this aggressive, ambitious woman fell in love with the general and presumably made him feel like a Greek God. One review of the book said just as much – something to the effect of “It’s not whether Petraeus was perfect, but whether he was super perfect!” Then again, after 37 years with one woman and years abroad, one can certainly make logical sense of a 60-year-old man being receptive to the advances of an impressive, beautiful younger woman.

      Either way, it’s unfortunate that a man who appeared to have such upstanding morals is just like the rest of the big name politicians/athletes/actors/rock stars.

      I don’t think it can/should shed much light on this argument – which has already been twisted beyond recognition by a few posters. Yes, men DO like brilliant, accomplished women. I spent 15 years chasing them myself. Then I realized that it didn’t MEAN very much in terms of my happiness. Same way a rich, charismatic man isn’t necessarily a good HUSBAND. Who IS a good husband? The guy who picks up on his wife’s emotional cues and helps with the housework and the childrearing – not the guy who necessarily is the most impressive. This isn’t even a debate at this point. Which is why it’s so tiring. Looks and money are just attractive shiny qualities; they say nothing about what kind of partner someone is. And if you chase them – whether you’re a man or a woman – at the expense of values and ethics and sensitivity – you’re aiming for a heartbreak.

  13. 163
    Aisling

    Anyway, I get depressed reading this blog/comments.  Not because of Evan, who I believe is a very kind person, but because of the mostly male and some of the female comments here.  I have seen how they have beaten up on the 30-something Fiona. I can only imagine how they would bea t up on me at 50+!  LOL  Has anyone here really tried to think outside the box?  Some people  look great at 60 and some are old at 25.

    Nic, I admire your openness.  But I envision you as a hot  blonde 20 or 30 something.  Hence, the neurosurgeon.  No offense.  It is not your fault

  14. 164
    Raina

    I still don’t think reddy was in any kind of wrong.  Maybe banning her from responding is a way of not listening to what her legitimate points were.  Basically, American men don’t care about education level from what EMK says – but I don’t think that’s really true and I find that to be very insulting of men.  Trust me, in East Indian communities, it matters a lot – yes, even the woman’s educational attainment.  So, the men just wanting cute, feminine and uncold is more of an American and Western thing in my experience than it is a catch-call description of all men.  Besides, I met my husband without doing online dating; he was 37 when we met and I was 33 (I’m now 35). 

  15. 165
    Evan Marc Katz

    @Raina – If I didn’t tolerate dissent on here, this blog wouldn’t have 37,000 comments on it. No, the only thing I don’t tolerate are personal insults…

    Reddy to Evan:

    “Could this evaluation of yours possibly have something to do with the fact that these women were not interested in you? Or wanted an equal relationship without having to look at you in admiration and having to stroke your ego?”

    “I read what you wrote on the website of Rory Raye and it made my hair stand up how you listed all your bad characteristics and went on to tell how your wife was cool about them. I can more or less imagine what kind of person you are, you are probably very witty and entertaining but also pretty selfish and arrogant.”

    Evan to Reddy:

    Goodbye.

  16. 166
    Fiona

    Morris the fact that you have a successful friend who is married to a Montessori teacher and says he wouldn’t have married an alpha female is irrelevant. The guy is married and it may surprise you to hear that I couldn’t be happier that guys with such attitudes are off the market. Why would I want someone who doesn’t like successful women anyway?

    Where Evan I think gets it wrong is to think that money is not important. Only people who have money or come from money usually think that.  I have seen what happens to people with no money first hand. Many lead utterly miserable lives and I don’t want that for myself ever hence the fact that I have worked hard to avoid that. Call me shallow if you wish – I call it practical.

    In all seriousness I see no evidence that the majority of uneducated men are more interested in me than their educated counterparts. Many of them are of course interested in a sexual way as are a lot of men but that is about it. They usually figure out after about five minutes of conversation as do I that we are incompatible. 

    Finally, yes we all try to make men feel good – this is a no brainer, My point is that this has nothing to do with being more successful. A really good man in my view isn’t gong to have an issue with a woman being successful either. Of those that do, I would suggest they aren’t worth bothering with and the less successful women they end up with had better watch out if one day they decide they want to do more with their lives.

  17. 167
    Soul

    EMK
    I totally agree with you

  18. 168
    Rochelle

    @ marymary 177, exactly I don’t understand the women who act like they are making themselves “weak” by making a man feel loved, respecting him and  being supportive, so they rather criticize his every move rather than encourage him. These women feel entitled to a man who makes them feel like queen but making a man feel loved strikes a nerve with them.  It goes both ways.

  19. 169
    Karmic Equation

    @Aisling, Reddy, Fiona

    You’re not getting it. It’s not that men don’t “don’t care” about your degrees or success, it’s simply that they don’t VALUE your degrees and success the same way YOU value them, whether in yourself or in the man.

    What a man VALUES is how he FEELS WHEN YOU ARE WITH HIM. Do you make him feel GOOD about himself? Or do you DRAG HIM DOWN? Do you truly APPRECIATE him as a HUMAN BEING first rather than the as a “successful man” first? Do you see his humanity? Do you understand his vulnerabilities? Do you NURTURE him with positive emotions and attitude, so that he feels that only with you can he be free to be himself AND also conquer the world — and if he doesn’t succeed, you’ll still “be there for him”, that he is still your hero?

    That is what a man VALUES. Your success and your degrees don’t help him feel this way.

    This doesn’t mean playing games and kissing up to him (althought it does sometimes mean stroking his ego – just woman-up and do it. Men cater to our need for romance the same way). It means really and truly seeing through to the heart and soul of the man. If and when you do, you’ll find that MOST men are worthy of your appreciation, admiration, and respect, whether they are alaundry worker or a CEO.

    Whether the man is an alpha, beta, or omega, you will earn his undying devotion if you can make HIM feel safe, appreciated, admired, respected, heroic even. And if you make HIM feel all that, you win…his heart, his mind, his devotion, his commitment.

    It’s kind of a Murphy’s Law, the more you need a man to admire YOU, the less likely you are to get it; the more YOU admire a man, the more he admires you. The hardest part is to make him feel all that without becoming a clingy doormat.

  20. 170
    Morris

    Aisling. No need to get depressed. At least for my post I was referring to people who arbitrary limit their dating pool to 1% of the population and get upset that that 1% isn’t interested in them.

    Fiona. At the end of the day the men you seek are out there. I just wanted you to understand you’ve made it hard on yourself with your criteria. The small dating pool of educated, successful, attractive(to you at least), kind men have their pick of just about any women they want. If you don’t have children and want a family you’ll have to consider said man will also be considering age in his criteria as well. You’ll have to be his ideal woman as much as he is your ideal man. Good luck.

  21. 171
    nathan

    Fiona, I have to disagree with you on the money issue. It’s not nearly as much about the amount someone makes, as how they handle it. I’ll out myself for example. I have a Master’s Degree, and yet have never made more than 30K a year. Now, you might say I’m unsuccessful and that my finances are a red flag. But consider. I’m currently the head of one non-profit’s board or directors, was a founding member of another non-profit, and am a published author. Yes, I’m not the norm, but let’s move past that to look at the more important issue here. Being on the lower end of middle class doesn’t equal living miserably. I’m not in debt, nor do I fritter money away needlessly. Most of my friends are doing just fine as well, despite not making anywhere near six figures. My guess is that the majority of those you see as living miserable lives are folks with poor financial habits, which is entirely different from not having a high income. You’re selectively ignoring the fact that plenty of folks who have high power jobs, or are well off through inheritance, also burn through money like there’s no tomorrow.
     
    That’s one of the more subtle points of what Evan is talking about here. It’s not money that’s important; it’s about how one spends it and takes care of it. If you are concerned about divorce, it’s a hell of a lot more important to look at someone’s spending and saving habits. But that takes time, and frankly, the majority of folks are so in a rush, that they’d rather use faulty filters like arbitrary income cutoffs than take a risk on someone who might be an excellent partner.

  22. 172
    marymary

    Fiona
    You want a man who is rich and well-educated. That’s your perogative. But as you’ve said yourself, you can’t seem to find such a man (who is suitable. Evidently, you’ve dated a few such men but it hasn’t worked out their attributes notwithstanding).  We suggest widening the net and refocusing on things that are “obvious” and a “no-brainer” such as his character, integrity, and kindness (which apparently are so abundant there’s no need to specifically search for them).  You think we’re telling you to date a poverty stricken illiterate who is a nice person.
    I’m at a loss as to what you want us to say to you. But I’m intrigued as to what it might be. 

  23. 173
    Foxie

    We should not confuse successful with educated, and this thread was about educational level. Educational level does not equal success in life but it often comes with it. But not always. I personally find the educational level important, apart from the being yes or no succesful of a man.
    I think that a woman who makes let’s say 60 K prefers to be with a guy whose standard of living is not too much below hers because she knows that if it is, it will make her poorer (just like having a woman who earns significantly less makes a man poorer) coz before she had her salary for herself and now she has to share it. Will she still be able to have 2 holidays a year and regularly have dinner in a nice restaurant if she has to pay for her man as well? OK, men have been supporting women but 1) most of the time they earn a lot more than women 2) the woman usually cooks and cleans for them, does their laundry, raises there children. I know couples where the woman has to support the man and on top of that she also has to do all the household chores. That’s modern slavery in my eyes.
    Fiona is right: money is important. It is a difference to find a partner who has his/her own home than one who doesn’t (I am not talking about 25 year olds who are to young to possess their own home) for example. If you have a partner who is in serious debt, it will certainly affect your relationship.

  24. 174
    Karmic Equation

    @Foxie
     
    Money isn’t important, but rather, as Nathan has indicated, make sure that you and your partner are responsible with money. If neither of you are, then yes, I guess, one of you will need to make lots of money.
     
    However, why would you even choose a partner with poor money habits? Or actually, I would say that, don’t marry anyone with poor money habits. They may make good boyfriends, but certainly not good marriage material.
     
    If you make more money than your partner, then make sure you have an ironclad prenup to protect your wealth.
     
    There are ways around the money issue that doesn’t require a man to make X amount of money. In my opinion, if this is a deal breaker, then you are mighty shallow indeed.

  25. 175
    Barry

    Where did this delusion, that women can have it all come from ?
    This whole topic has hit a raw nerve, because so many have bought into the lie.

    And yes it really is just about the money. Education is merely a cover.
    What is does mean is that there is no longer “a lid for every pot”  because so many are rejecting the lids that fit in favour of waiting for one that is covered in gold.

    This is a tragedy of epic proportions.
     

    1. 175.1
      ScottH

      Two thumbs up, Barry.

  26. 176
    Clare

    Evan,

    Will you consider censoring Barry please, or have a chat with him?  His language towards women is so attacking, I’m not sure how the other women on this blog can stand it. For me, it’s making the blog kind of an unpleasant place and I’m considering leaving. 

    1. 176.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I was going to delete your post, Clare, because it’s not your place to police my blog comments. But I let it through for the obvious purpose of being a teachable moment.

      You want me to censor Barry for saying too aggressively that women are too hung up on money – even though he hasn’t attacked you personally or insulted you personally. Sorry, no can do.

      The same tone that you’re receiving from Barry is the one that I get from dozens of women in this comments section – you know – the ones who complain that men are the problem, men should change, men have no integrity, men are too interested in sex, youth and beauty, men are cheaters, men are liars, men are poor communicators.

      I don’t recall you asking me to censor those women’s posts as they attacked men (including me).

      I can either censor EVERYBODY who speaks in one-sided strongly worded tones or I should censor ONLY the people who turn attacks into something personal. I’ve been doing the latter for years. But the former is the debate that keeps this blog compelling – however much you (and I) find it agitating.

      Personally, I think Barry can stand to soften his tone, but I don’t disagree that much with his message.

      And I’ll observe what you’ve probably already observed, Clare: you’re far more attuned to insults directed at women than you are at insults directed at men.

      1. 176.1.1
        AliPat

        Evan,

        I don’t think Clare was wrong in her request. I find your response to her to be unnecessarily harsh. Plus you are making assumptions about her being more attuned to insults directed at women without considering what we as readers see/experience on this blog. I happened upon this blog by chance and I was shocked at how unkind some of your words and the words of many of the male posters were to these  women who have been unsuccessful at love. I think you guys are taking advantage of these women’s situations. You feel like if they haven’t or can’t find husbands then its okay to beat up on them because they don’t agree with you or they simply don’t understand your point of views. When you were “insulted” you defended yourself and also censored the poster, so Clare doesn’t need to ask that you censor that person; you are clearly  capable of defending yourself. You are also missing that Clare is a “woman” and we respond better and see the “good” in advice when it is communicated with gentler, kinder words and Barry’s was not. Many women do not like to be compared to inanimate objects such as his “lid and pot” comments. It is insulting and sad you thought you needed to censor Clare but not Barry. Lastly, Reddy didn’t actually insult you with her post you only decided to take offense to it. She stated she “imagined” what you were like, and said what you were you were “probably” like. Based on your responses to Reddy and Clare I feel you are way too sensitive to insults directed at you and really do have some of the selfish, self-centered characteristics and probably the arrogance your were accused of. Those aren’t really insults but characteristics that I agree you are displaying with some of your posts.  It may not be “who” you are but your comments at times make it seem like it “could” fit.  Maybe you didn’t like them being pointed out but that does make them untrue.  You even mentioned that you think taking care of your own kids in the mornings so your wife can sleep disproves this, but no, not necessarily. You can be a good father, maybe a good husband while also being selfish, self-centered and arrogant. Good father/husband does not have to be mutually exclusive of selfishness or arrogance. Your wife just tolerates you or better yet accepts you and loves you still. So to sum up what I’m saying, perhaps you should do what you are asking these women to do; do not totally dismiss/censor what people are saying to you and understand that some people are harsh, crude and kind of rude. If you would censor a poster because you believe they are insulting to you then please also censor some of the posters that are insulting to women because more so this blog is to help WOMEN find men not help men to insult the women that can’t find men.  The insults that women hurl at men are appropriate to be viewed here but if she is in fact wrong, correct her don’t censor her. Men’s insults to women have no place on this particular blog. If this was for men needing help finding women then their utterly disgusting complaints, analogies and comparisons and insults should be placed there. Yes, I understand that these women are here looking for “help” and you are not but if you are helping them you have to know that they will also want to share their experience of you as well and this might also help you learn how to get through to them. Some of them seemed  like they could use more patience and encouragement to “understand” where they are going wrong.  Just like you, if the women feel insulted or verbally attacked they will feel like most of what you say can be dismissed and not considered any further because it coming from an arrogant, rude person. Being honest with women does not mean beating up on them.  This is another way that women in fact are different from men; brutal honesty is not as good as kind honesty.  And if it matters, I am an educated, successful and  married woman and while I am not looking for a husband I found this blog very interesting to a point. Thought I could share this blog with a couple of my unmarried friends but I can’t because I think the way this blog presents men by their comments and insults is bitter, insulting, uncaring, selfish and underachieving. My friends too happen to be successful and educated women and there is quite frankly no way I could convince them to lower their “standards” for date-able men if I spoke to them so crudely or showed them a blog that helped to perpetuate their already low view of most of the so-called available men.  Good luck to all you women out there 🙂

        1. Karl R

          AliPat said:

          “The insults that women hurl at men are appropriate to be viewed here but if she is in fact wrong, correct her don’t censor her. Men’s insults to women have no place on this particular blog.”

          I just wanted to highlight the blatant double standard.  I think it does a good job of refuting itself without any additional input from me.

  27. 177
    Karmic Equation

    @Fiona
    Finally, yes we all try to make men feel good – this is a no brainer, My point is that this has nothing to do with being more successful. A really good man in my view isn’t gong to have an issue with a woman being successful either.

     
    EXACTLY. Your success has nothing to do with making a man feel good, so your success matters little to a man seeking a mate. You keep forgetting that what matters to YOU may not matter to a man.



    Of those that do, I would suggest they aren’t worth bothering with and the less successful women they end up with had better watch out if one day they decide they want to do more with their lives.


    Dream on, Fiona. A man who marries a woman for her beauty isn’t going to wake up one day wishing she were successful. What he may do is dump her if he married her for her beauty and he wakes up one day thinking she looks like a hag. Again, you are projecting YOUR fears and desires into a man. A man doesn’t want what a WOMAN wants, a man wants what a MAN wants.
     
    Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus is more than just about communication styles. Men seek and value qualities in a woman DIFFERENTLY than what a woman values in a man. If you don’t get this as “intelligent” and as “educated” as you tout yourself to be…you are actually proving a point, though unintentionally. A person can be intelligent and educated and be male-female-dynamic-stupid. So don’t you think that leaves open the possibility that someone not “having gone to university” can be smart and intelligent? Male-female dynamic-wise or just about life in general?
     
    Be real and call a spade a spade, what you may want is to marry someone RICH, someone SOPHISTICATED, someone ATTRACTIVE. The problem is that guy, while he exists can doesn’t WANT OR NEED a successful woman to make him happy. Most likely, he wants, young, nubile, sweet, and supportive. Even if you were to qualify for the sweet and supportive qualities, young and nubile you are not.
     
    And lastly, all those alpha men, who ARE rich, sophisticated, well traveled, but already married…Guess what? He didn’t come out of the womb that way. Once upon a time, he may have been a laundry worker and the woman he married believed in him and supported him to become the man he is today.

  28. 178
    Andrew

    Evan, thank you for being on top of the comments and your approach towards “censorship”.  As an aside, I’d be very curious to read some of your hate mail (emails or deleted comments).

  29. 179
    Clare

    Apologies Evan, I did not mean to overstep, I’m very sorry if I was coming across as trying to police. It was not my intention.

    I guess it got to me a little and felt a little personal because I am a woman and I feel Barry has us completely wrong, and because of the language he uses.

    Guess I could stand to toughen up a little, or maybe not come here so much 😉

    Sorry again.      

  30. 180
    Clare

    By the way, sorry, for what it’s worth, I feel very sad when women attack men here too.

    1. 180.1
      Jay

      Those type of women are very Ignorant anyway.

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