How Do You Combat “Why Bother” Syndrome After a Bunch of Frustrating Dates?
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As a dating coach, I serve many roles. Friend. Confidante. Big brother. Teacher. Taskmaster. Cheerleader. Roll those all into one and you have me – a guy who spends 4 hours a day on the phone as a sponge for the frustrations, pain and negativity felt by my private clients. It's no different than being a shrink perhaps, but one of my clients, who IS a shrink, thinks I've got the tougher job.
Because while a psychologist can keep on asking questions: "How does that make you feel?", "What do YOU think that means?", my clients turn to me for ANSWERS. They want results. They're not concerned with conquering their inner demons as much as getting clarity on when love will come their way.
How do you keep on going when you're successful at everything else in life, yet every romantic partner you touch turns to crap?
Today, I spoke with a special client. I won't out her, but she knows who she is. Like most of my clients, she's got everything going for her – bright, successful, interesting, relationship-oriented. How she's unique is that she's 33 (which is young for my clients) and she's undeniably cute (which isn't rare, but makes it far easier for her to attract men). Working with her has been a pure joy for me, as I am witness to her spectacular growth on a week-by-week basis. We've been talking for 11 weeks now, and I am astounded at how far she's come. Yet tonight, all she could tell me was how sad she was. Three bad dates in the past week. No promising leads on the horizon. Negative thoughts creeping into her head. Why bother with dating at all? Great question. One I've tackled relatively recently. But still, it persists.
How do you keep on going when you're successful at everything else in life, yet every romantic partner you touch turns to crap? We spent an hour talking about this today, and I was thrilled to say that my client felt a thousand times better after the call than she did when we started the call. For her, metaphors, logic, and analogies are a big key to giving her a healthier perspective. Thank god, because that's what I do best. 
Anyway, I pointed out to her that, because she's a catch, 90% of the guys she meets are going to fall short of her standards. Which means, logically, that she might have to go on 9 mediocre dates until she finds one guy she's excited about. If she didn't have such high standards, she might be satisfied by the cute, boring guys she just passed up. But since she does have high standards, only 10% of men will be eligible. That's nothing to get angry at. It just means that due to her smaller dating pool, it will take her more time than it takes other women.
If we extrapolate further, of the 10% of the guys she's open to, half of them will not be into her, and half of them will be into her. That's dating for you. So now we've established that 1 out of 20 guys is boyfriend-eligible.
Related Posts:
- The Top 10 Worst Dates Ever
- Why Do We Rush to Go on as Many Coffee Dates as Possible, When Coffee Dates Almost Always Suck?
- How You Misunderstand Your Dates and How It Backfires
- Should Men Buy Flowers or Gifts for Women on First Dates?
- I Am In Love With a Man Who Wants Me To Stay With Him While He Dates Another Woman.
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Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared. |
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76 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Favorites, Online Dating Tips & Advice, Sex & Relationship Advice
Mr_Right 1
This was the same numbers type of logic that I used last year when I went on a large number of dates.
Logically, if I went on 10 dates, even though I screened them to meet my standards and they had a high interest level and so forth, only 1 of them would be second date-worthy. And on that second date, about half would be third date-worthy. So that’s about right, 1 in 20. And even then, it takes a bit longer than that to determine if someone is relationship-worthy.
I went on 54 dates last year. When I went on my 55th date, I got a lot of ‘the one’ vibes from our first date. Our second date I got even more ‘the one’ vibes (and a really good kiss at the end of that date). Our third date, when it took us two hours to say goodbye, I started canceling all my online dating subscriptions because I knew she was the one. And after four and a half months now, I just told her I loved her, and she said I love you too.
I was just lucky it took me 55 dates and 4500 browsed online profiles rather than 100 dates and 9000 browsed profiles.
It’s all about perspective and keeping your individual glass half-full. As long as you’re working at it and doing all that you can, good things will come your way. How do you think people because successful? They had to work at it!
Cilla 2
This reminds me of the “How Do You Get Past the Cynicism…” post of June 2nd. While I’m aware dating is a often a numbers game and that going on more dates can increase your chances of finding a good match, sometimes I just need to take myself out of the game entirely for a month or two. It’s easy to get caught up in constantly checking email, maintaining phone relationships, and updating your profile. Throw in a few first dates, and all the prep that goes into them, and you feel like you have a second job. If you’re not having great first dates, it feels like a job with really low pay. We take vacations from work; if dating has become another form of work, it might make sense to take a break from that too.
My solution is to take down my profile, email the people I’m corresponding with that my life has become a little busy and I’ll get back to them soon (at the risk that they may find someone else in the meantime), and focus on my life outside of dating. In the past when I did this, I found I came back to dating refreshed and more confident about what I was looking for in a date/relationship. I was also more tolerant of first dates who were not a good match for me but might be a good match for a friend or might be someone I could have a platonic relationship with.
Before I even put my profile back up, I completely revamped it (most people have read a few new books, taken a trip, or seen a new film over the course of a month), added new photos, and formulated a game plan for my search criteria, how much time I was willing to devote to looking, etc. The rewards to twofold: the dating pool had changed in the time I was gone, and a bunch of new guys had posted profiles; and because my profile was “new,” it moved to the top of the search list garnering me a lot more hits. It didn’t take long to get an email from someone who was a fabulous match for me, and we’ve been dating exclusively for the last couple of months.
Sorry, Evan, I know this isn’t a good solution for your business in the short term, but it might be a good long-term strategy for people who have been looking for a while and are becoming so frustrated they are now difficult clients. You were right, though, a good person for me was just around the corner. Instead of going on a lot more dates to find him, I needed to jump off the ride for a while and be willing to come back with the attitude that he was out there somewhere–same vision, same end, but a different means to that end.
Jennifer 3
Evan, I love everything about the post. It’s easy to lose perspective and the numbers really are helpful. Thank you!
I had a date saturday night and while i don’t want a second date with this person, I had a good time and walked away feeling good and excited about upcoming dates as opposed to disappointed that that date didn’t ‘work out’. That’s growth people
BeenThruTheWars 4
I kept a meticulous dating journal after my divorce in 1995. On average, it took me 25 first dates between “keepers.” It took me four monogamous relationships with men I deemed worthy of stopping dating for (ranging from 3 months to 7 years) before I found my wonderful new husband (3.5 years now), so you do the math. That’s approximately 100 first dates before finding Mr. Right-For-Me. They originated from newspaper personals, online dating, dating services, people I met through organizations I belonged to, and men I met “in the wild.” Some of the dates were awful, some were great, most were meh. Approximately one-quarter of all my first dates resulted in a second date. But as one boss from an advertising job many years ago once taught me, “It’s a process, not an event.” The “it” can be whatever you want it to be, in this case romance. “You’ve gotta be in it to win it” is the corollary. And Evan (as well as my mom) are correct in their advice that “it’s a numbers game.” Get yourself out there in as many places as you can and date up a storm. It’s the only way.
BeenThruTheWars 5
@ Mr_Right, what a sweet and inspiring story! Best of luck to you and your lady.
Michael 6
My advice would to be concentrate on having a good time (including sexual intercourse).
Marc 7
One way to combat the “why bother?” syndrome is not to bring the “why bother?” attitude with you on dates. I’ve been the fifth guy some woman has gone out with in one week, and it’s no fun sitting there trying to make up for the perceived sins of the other four. As difficult as it is, she needs to leave her baggage at home and bring her happy face with her to each date. She may not find the one immediately, but with a better attitude, she’ll at least have more fun trying.
Ruby 8
How I can relate, and I am in my late 40′s.! I wish I was out there dating at 33! Piece o’ cake, but I know, it’s all relative. Haven’t been in a long-term relationship in nearly 10 years, but have had several short ones. Oh, the stories I could tell! Taking occasional breaks is a must in order to re-charge and not get too jaded.
After not meeting anyone special for over a year, I’ve recently started dating someone I’m very excited about, and it appears to be mutual. He recently started dating again after not having dated for over 3 years. It’s still early, but it has given me so much hope. Of course, if it doesn’t work out, I’ll just go back o being cynical. It’s hard to keep putting yourself out there, but as they say, it ain’t over ’til it’s over.
Honey 9
I agree with Cilla’s approach of taking a break – sometimes it does get your head back on straight. I had been taking a break from Match for a month or two when I happened to e-mail the soon-to-be BF on MySpace. I wasn’t invested AT ALL…until about 5 minutes into our first date!
Prior to meeting him, I’d resolved not to even try to date anyone until I graduated, since at that time I was planning on leaving the state once I was done and I didn’t feel like the 2 years I had left was going to be enough to ask someone to give up their career and move with me. Now I’m still in AZ and I’m the one who (at least for now) took a career detour so I could be with my one-and-only. So like Evan, I met my guy during my darkest time. It seems to be a super common story, which is good news for those who are frustrated now!
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Good News Follows Good News: Or, LinkedIn Works!? =-.
Selena 10
Thanks Evan for writing such a positive post. Refreshing after some of the negative dialogue inducing ones of late. Made me feel optomistic and I’m not even actively dating. Smile.
Carol 11
Evan, this is one of the best posts I have seen about this subject. We’ve all been there or are there. Right or wrong the numbers thing makes sense. It took me 50 guys to find my husband, so if I look at the bright side, I only have 9 to go! Even for a can do upbeat personality like me, this article was right on as I wonder, “Where is he and why haven’t I met him yet?” It’s the motivation to never give up that makes it work, thanks for your timely reminder!
Steve 12
I started reading this blog & Marc’s before I started off with match.com. Doing those things helped reduce frustration in advance. I learned what the reality in this area is, which helps me to not take it personally.
When I go to the motor vehicles association I know I am going to get a hard time, but everybody else does to. It isn’t being aimed at *me*.
Same way with the online dating thing.
Steve 13
@7 – amen.
Steve 14
@BeenThruTheWars #4
What an incredibly useful post. Though, it does sound overwhelming
__25__ dates!! Gadzooks. That is a whole lot of chef’s salads!
girl-with-glasses 15
On a date, men are usually just looking for a good time. A woman could be looking for a perspective mate or long term partner with marriage potential. The dynamics can be a bit off. At 33, she should probably be dating with long term intentions in mind, but train herself to be much more mellow about the process, otherwise she’ll just mentally and emotionally drain herself, and not give the whole dating process a fair shake. With today’s daying scene, hundreds, if not thousands, of dates seem to be a good trial number. It’s really a second / part time job. Just my 2 cents of course =)
Mikko Kemppe 16
Great article. Really enjoyed it!
angela 17
I guess I have not got there yet. I think it depends on your past relationship history and perspective. And maybe age (51) I am enjoying life with family and friends. Yes I want a significant other and I am looking but I am not down about it. Of course I am not 33 years old not trying to have kids. I was married for 8 years. Pretty good years at that! My son is in high school and I am excited about what life will bring in the future. I try to have fun on all my dates and for me the secret has been to treat the guy as a friend. I do not have these high expectations and I enjoy myself even if the person is not a match. I say enjoy the journey, not just the destination!!
JB 18
Ruby#8 is a lot closer to what I’m feeling. It’s a different game when your 48 and of course depending on what you look like,where you live,what your options are,if your male or female etc… everyone is going to have a different opinion
Women can go on “15 bad dates” and it won’t cost them a penny except time. For men, a bad date not only costs time but cash. (Except for the woman I met that ordered 1 Diet Coke…lol Thank god….that was the longest 20 minutes of my life…lol but inexpensive)
I haven’t met anyone I’ve actually cared about and was really attracted to in 4 years and that was my last relationship. That hasn’t stopped me from dating it’s basically just made me get closer to having “Why bother syndrome”. Going on dates with women I’m ambivalent about at best is wearing me down.
It’s either that or not dating at all and being celibate. My options are what they are. They closed down the only place in my area where 35-50 yr. olds felt comfortable going to so that ended meeting women the “old fashioned” way……err…walking up and saying “hello”. In my area they have several singles fucntions that are filled with people 60 and up…Woo Hoo !!! I could yell “BINGO” and they’d all get excited !! …LOL That leaves the wonderful old internet, where after 12 years and many profiles,dates,successes(what ever you’d deem a success)failures and utterly ridiculous scenarios. I could write 3 books if I could remember ALL the details.
I know I don’t sound positive in this post, only because that’s the topic(the Syndrome) but believe me I NEVER let negativity or frustration creep in when I’m dealing with women. I know better….lol no really….believe me….I’m an incredible actor.
casualencounters.com/blog 19
Love is a rare bird all right, but certainly one worth pursuing; and as you say, it can be darkest before the dawn (or alternatively, right before it goes completely pitch black.)
I’m not sure I have a point here. Keep reaching for your dreams, perhaps? Illegitimi non carborundum?
.-= casualencounters.com/blog´s last blog ..Ashley Madison Review =-.
Diana 20
She “lives and dies by each new guy?” I know a lot of women who put themselves through this torture. You are an emotionally healthier individual and thus, a healthier and more attractive dating partner when you stop placing excessive value and pressure on the situation, the guy, and even yourself through the expectations and high standards that you have created in your mind.
IMHO, she needs to slow down, regroup and truly evaluate and understand herself first before heading any further, or to at least put the brakes on the runaway train. Have fun, try to keep it light and easy, don’t let your dating ups and downs define who you are. And believe me, when the right man comes along, they will both know it, without all of the emotional toil.
Until then, life really is about the journey and not the destination, as Angela mentioned. Sometimes we are so focused on our perceived destination, we miss the entire trip altogether. Life has a way of changing our course, too.
As for the stats, yes, it could all work out that way, and yet Mr. Right could also be date #1. Life is somewhat of a crap shoot.
Just remember to breathe, and keep hope eternal.
Curious 21
A year ago I was trying internet dating. I went out with a ton of guys, and a lot were communicating with me, so the odds were good, right? Well, I got very burned out on it. I just don’t have that much time, and I didn’t like going out all that much. All the guys wanted to meet in a bar and have a drink which isn’t so good for your health or your figure, if you know what I mean.
OK, so right before I let my subscription lapse I met one particular guy for a drink, but I was late because I didn’t know how to get where we were meeting, I was coming from one of the most awful days at work, and he hadn’t really wanted to communicate with me too much beforehand. He was busy, too, and friends had told him just to meet and not spend much time emailing, speaking by phone, etc. So I was thinking it was just going to be some checking me out thing, which was making me mad and not too into it. But it would have been better had I not had those two other awful things. When I met him I was definitely thinking “Why bother” and I’m sure it was written very clearly on my face.
Any rate, he was really great. I wanted to see him again, not because I was so sure we were a match, but because I just really liked him. And I am very interested in his work. And he spent a lot of money on champagne and I wanted to reciprocate. He said he would contact me about going out to dinner. But he didn’t get back to me about it, and I started seeing someone else who wanted to be exclusive right away, and my subscription lapsed, and I forgot about him.
Now I am thinking about him again. Exclusive guy wasn’t a good experience. I sent nice champagne guy an invite to a social networking site we both are on and he responded affirmatively within about 2 minutes and joined my network.
I’m not really in dating mode. I just liked him as a person and felt bad about not being the my best on our one-and-only meeting. I mean, it could be a match, but it might not be, and I would like to know him either way, and I feel bad about my “why bother” attitude that evening.
Michael 22
I just can’t believe how many people treat dating as like some sort of medieval gauntlet you have to survive in order to win a prize at the end. That just seems like a sad way to live life. I think I’ve dated as many people in my life as anyone here, and I’ve got to say that by and large I’ve enjoyed each date. My thought going in has always been that I’m going to be doing something fun with an attractive, hopefully interesting woman, and why hassle with getting ahead of myself? Maybe it’s wrong to think everyone should be able to look at it this way, but even through some she-doesn’t-look-like-her-photo-or-act-like-her-profile online dates there was a certain adventure I relished.
Or maybe Evan’s client has one flaw that may even cause some of these “bad dates”: she doesn’t look forward to meeting new people and having new experiences. Any adventurer worth his or her salt has horror stories, but it doesn’t put them off adventuring. Come to think of it, I’ve never really “caught fire” with women who weren’t somewhat adventurous, so yes, that might be a limiting factor that the men she meets might sense, compounding her problem.
I think the answer he gave the client is about the best “smiley face” way to go about things – you can’t really make someone more adventurous.
Curious 23
Michael@22: Going back to the pursuer/pursued conversation–maybe you have never been on the receiving end of being “checked out” relentlessly. It is wearing and tedious and not fun. And it has a cumulative effect. So maybe you go into dates thinking “what an adventure” and who cares if she isn’t your dream girl or if you don’t get laid, but most men do not have that attitude about it, in my experience. Can’t speak to the other side of it–I’m sure women do something similar, but I don’t date women so can’t say. That said, most guys are polite, so it’s not like it’s some kind of awful experience that you have to recover from. It’s just more that it seems stupid after awhile to keep meeting strangers for pointless interactions on the hopes that something deeper will develop. I like having adventures with people I already know.
Steve 24
I think it helps to share your experiences with others, but I think it also helps that after you do that for the cathartic value to stay away from people with negative attitudes about dating/relationships.
Finding time to do stuff that is guaranteed fun with your friends or yourself also helps you forget about the bad dates quicker.
Diana 25
To Michael #22: I think the client does look forward to meeting new people and having new adventures, but she is, after all, a woman, and if she’s living and dieing with each new guy, she’s putting a huge emotional investment into the process right out of the gate. This is something that needs fine tuning. Kind of like how to care, but not too much until there really is “something” to care about. When things don’t go so well, it’s not only “why bother,” it’s draining, tiring, daunting, a chore, not as much fun as she had hoped for, and so on.
Diana 26
To JB #18: I couldn’t help but giggle about your bingo comment, as my mom is a bingo regular. And dating is typically more expensive for the men; good point.
LK 27
“It’s just more that it seems stupid after awhile to keep meeting strangers for pointless interactions on the hopes that something deeper will develop. I like having adventures with people I already know.”
Exactly.
JM 28
My sister, who is happily married, once told me years ago: “Lower your expectations, but don’t lower your standards”. I think that’s a great motto to live by as we all try to navigate through the dating waters.
Case in point: I had a blind date last night. He took me to a club where he is a member and they offer complimentary coffee. [He wasn't drinking alcohol and I wasn't either - although I'll be having a few drinks tonight!] The club had a cool view of the city.
I appreciated the originality of taking me to the club; I didn’t appreciate the fact that we were there for 2.5 hours and he never mentioned anything about ordering some appetizers or something to snack on. I’m not looking for a free meal, but we were there from 5pm to after 7pm. Needless to say, there won’t be a second date, and I admit I walked home feeling pretty disgusted. But as we all know, it is a numbers game, so I’ll just write this one off and look forward to hopefully meeting someone down the line that has a little more class and sophistication. I’m just hoping that I don’t fall prey to the “Why Bother” syndrome if this type of bad behavior continues…
Steve 29
@27
If you don’t play, you can’t win.
Bottom line.
Steve 30
@JM #28
You make a good point.
Last year, when I started dating again in a serious way I asked a woman out FOR COFFEE. We enjoyed talking so much 3 hours passed – yet I could not get a second date with her.
Translation – it didn’t occur to me that since I wasn’t hungry, she was and miffed that I didn’t offer to order some food.
Mystery solved.
Paul 31
I can’t tell you how much I’ve learned just from reading this blog all the time. Thank you Evan! Here here!
I’ve studied online dating extensively, like you do when you want to succeed at something, and I have a great time now with it. Frustrations? of course. Lots of first dates, yes, second dates, sometimes. But after I learned it’s just a process, I can sit back, enjoy it, do what’s in the best interest for the girls and not me, and really enjoy myself with integrity! I’m having a blast and communicating with lots of women all the time, and I’m 50! She’s out there and damn it, I’ll find her!
Lance 32
Three mediocre dates in one week is NOTHING. Like Evan said, it’s merely a warmup Three bad dates in one day, or 10 bad dates in a week, and maybe you’ve got something. But not really.
Something I heard a long time ago that help me a lot. Consider every rejection, and every bad date, a brick in your palace. Eventually, the palace gets built.
Also, stop looking for marriage and kids on the first date. That’s a recipe for failure. Look at them as social interactions, networking opportunities, chances to have fun and exchange value. Then they will never be failures.
.-= Lance´s last blog ..Get Fit and Improve Your Dating Prospects =-.
Selena 33
@ JM # 28
If you were hungry why didn’t you just ask him, “Do they serve appetizers here?” I would have.
I wouldn’t automatically assume he was cheap or unsophisticated. In any case, why would it be his responsiblity to feed you on a coffee date? You could have ordered something or cut the date short to go home and eat.
Michael 34
I think the client does look forward to meeting new people and having new adventures, but she is, after all, a woman, and if she’s living and dieing with each new guy, she’s putting a huge emotional investment into the process right out of the gate.
I guess putting out a huge emotional investment is a bad idea.
Would casual sex be much less emotionally exhasuting?
JM 35
@ Steve 30
Happy to help you solve your mystery; I think I speak for many women out there
@ Selena 33
What’s awkward about the “do they serve appetizers here” question is that he asked me out on a date. So I’m always uncomfortable bringing up the subject of food; especially since it was a “coffee date”. But this guy (and I) are both in our late 40s. I would hope after all those years of dating, a guy might think about the other person’s needs (i.e. I wonder is she’s hungry since it’s after 7pm and we met at 5pm). And when you’re sitting on a date for over 2 hours, I think it’s just common courtesy to ask. And I guess what made it even worse, was that he didn’t even have to pay for the coffee. Sorry, but that screams cheap to me, and if you are supposed to put your best foot forward on a first date, I don’t think this guy is worthy of a second. I’d be curious to hear how other women handle this scenario. I’m always open to hearing everyone’s point of view! And let me reiterate, I’m not dating with the hopes of getting a free meal, just hoping to meet a good guy!
Cilla 36
@ JM
I’ve learned to inquire ahead of time, especially since I keep a kind of unconventional schedule about eating (would be perfectly happy living in Barcelona, if that’s any clue).
I just ask before the date, “Are you thinking we might like to eat while we’re out, or should I grab something before hand?” Or if I get hungry during the date, “You know, I am a little peckish after all–I think I’ll look at a menu.” I’m old enough to decide if I want to order something to eat, and I always offer to pay so my date doesn’t feel like I’m taking advantage of him. If I’m too cowed to even mention that my blood sugar is declining exponentially, we’re not going to be a good match anyhow.
I do think it’s courteous, if the meeting goes on longer than expected (e.g., a 2-hour+ coffee date), to ask if your date wants something to eat. Look at it as an opportunity: it gives your date a chance to end the meeting or, if they’re really having a good time, to extend the date by ordering some food. If she’s not hungry, but still wants to hang out, she’ll say something like, “Oh, no thanks, I’m not hungry, but I would like a second cup of coffee” or “I’m good, but I could use a glass of water.” I don’t think it’s the guy’s responsibility, just a courtesy.
Jennifer 37
@JM #35, I understand your predicament but I probably would’ve taken something like Cilla’s approach only even more direct: I’m a bit hungry; i think i might like an appetizer. If I did that I would not expect him to pay for it since it was a ‘coffee’ date, but when I’m hungry I’m definitely not putting my best foot forward and wouldn’t want to do that on a date.
I see where you are coming from about him being more considerate, and I agree it would’ve been nice if he’d asked if you were hungry, but at the end of the day you have to make sure your needs are met, first and foremost. I like food too much to keep quiet about it
Diana 38
To Michael #34: It depends on the woman.
JM 39
Thanks to everyone who showed me different perspectives regarding the “food issue”. Your comments were all very valid!
I forgot to mention (and I hate to ‘go there’) but I live in NYC, and unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) the dating scene is very competitive. At the risk of sounding high maintenance (which I hope I’m not), the “food-less coffee date” is definitely the exception and not the norm. I still have to go with my gut feeling and at the ‘end of the day’, I just don’t think this would be the type of guy I would want to pursue a relationship with. But I am going to consider all your comments, and should I encounter this scenario again, I will definitely handle it differently and perhaps “vocalize” my hunger
Michael 40
To Curious (#23) and Diana (#25), I don’t know if I accept that we can divorce someone’s unwillingness to experience the journey in a date from her overall adventurousness.
There are a LOT of people out there who have difficulty dealing with people outside their immediate circle of family and friends. I see it every day, every time I go to a store, stand in a line or walk down the street. When they’re in the dating realm, those people will quickly lose patience as soon as they’ve determined their date isn’t “the one.” (I’ve experienced that too – believe it or not, I wasn’t “the one” for everyone I’ve dated.
) Then that result rules the date.
Yes, some guys get pushy or stupid. If your companion’s behavior makes you uncomfortable, that’s when you declare “date over” and walk away. The idea of “sticking it out” on a date that has clearly gone south in order to “be nice” is a bad idea. It makes you miserable and supports the guy’s behavior.
Given Evan’s good statement to her that very few men will measure up, he might want to suggest to this woman is to not accept dinner, lunch or coffee dates – because her “rejection rate” is going to be higher than most, she should make sure the date situation itself is something she’ll enjoy even after she has mentally dismissed the guy as not “the one.”
.-= Michael´s last blog ..Better Workouts With Less Equipment =-.
JB 41
JM,I’m curious ……You can’t mean to tell me…lol (or maybe you can) that the ONLY reason you didn’t want to see this guy again was that he didn’t offer the appetizer ?? Obviously you weren’t attracted to him anyway? As well as not liking his personality?? I’m sure if he was a smokin’ hot 9 or 10 you would be able to get past the food thing…LOL
And of course we’re only hearing YOUR side of the story what makes you think he had any desire to see you again? He may be cheap,just not that into you or both.
JM 42
@ JB – 41
Well JB, believe it or not, I’ve been out with guys who are “smoking hot 9s” but their personalities don’t always measure up, and so their good looks start to fade. Then there are the guys who are 7s, and get cuter due to their great personalities. My guess is that he was enjoying my company and that perhaps in his mind, there might have been a second date. I guess we’ll never know!
I’ve been on first dates where guys have paid $100+ on dinner and to be honest with you, that makes me uncomfortable, because I think that’s a pretty big financial commitment for a guy to make on a blind date. But, I think there is a happy medium. And unfortunately, I don’t think my date from last night knows about this blog, so you may never hear his side of the story…
Selena 43
- Lance #32:
“Consider every rejection, and every bad date, a brick in your palace. Eventually, the palace gets built.”
I like that alot Lance. Quite positive.
Steve 44
@Selena #33 – you’re a doll
@JM #35
Somebody brought up the idea of “false positives” — dating blunders that get mistaken for red flags.
I got so lost in the great conversation that it never occurred to me that I should have offered something more.
That coffee date/first date was last year and has long been water under the bridge, but my curiosity about what exactly happened on her end was never satisfied. I’m honestly grateful to finally have had a revelation about the possible cause.
Given some of the ridiculous things I have read women raise “red flags” over in the comment section on this blog Im taking this as a lesson learned instead of whining about it being a fast judgment.
Conceit aside, I have a sense for what women have to settle for these days so I know I am a great guy. If she is still throwing opportunities away because somebody has an absent minded she is still missing out.
JM 45
@ Steve – 44
I think you sound like you are a very positive guy and you are also very open to interpretation and input from other people. That is so healthy. I think we are all struggling (both men and women) when it comes to dating. Truth be told, I think it was much less complicated before online dating came into the picture, and also when gender roles were more clearly defined.
I think in the end, the good people find the other good people. In the meantime, I’ll continue to keep an open mind and an open heart, but I won’t lower my standards out of desperation! I’ll also remain true to who I am and what works for me.
Steve 46
@JM #45
Thanks for the nice compliments
. I don’t think online dating is any worse. It is just more frequent.
I don’t how I feel about about gender roles. I’m not sure it matters for me personally. I act how I want. I pull chairs out, I open doors, I drive and I pay for the first 4 or 5 dates. If a woman is cool, but has a problem with that I just tell her she can get the next one. Unless a woman’s demeanor is way off I can handle being asked out and I’ve actually felt quite flattered about it.
The big problems I have had dating, is that at least as a guy, I feel “guilty until proven innocent”. So many times I have gotten a sense of a woman that tells me that we are both cool people who would get along well, but that isn’t enough. I have to overcome suspicions of all kinds, red flags, game playing etc. Sometimes I feel like yelling “You don’t know who I am. My name is ‘Steve’ not ‘Mr. All Men You Met Before’”. It is a major turn-off to me
It is so bad, sometimes it is just more fun to stay at home and watch Lost
. Thankfully, only sometimes.
Selena 47
Steve re: #44,
I don’t if it’s so much I am a doll, as I am practical. If I’m hungry to the point of being uncomfortable I am not having a good time – wherever I am or with whom. I’d have to do something about that. Also, *I* wouldn’t be having coffee after 5 anyway; I’d be having a glass of wine or beer – lol. If the man I was with didn’t offer to have dinner with me, I’d just assume he already had dinner plans. This was just meant to be a kind of “go-see” date after all, why should there be any pressure?
Tell you this though, if the date extends beyond an hour or so, the guy who offers food scores points with me. It’s kind of a way of saying, “I’m enjoying your company and I’d like this to continue.” I understand dating, particularly ‘blind dating’ internet style, can get expensive for men. I’d be more comfortable in that situation keeping the date casual, inexpensive, and with a time frame that could be adjusted – short, or possibly extended if we really hit it off.
mic 48
If people present themselves accurately and positively before dates and judge accordingly, “Why Bother” Syndrome is less likely to occur.
If someone gets into that state, then – as suspected by some of you and supported by research – judgments of physical attractiveness and other qualities are harsher and therefore the problem perpetuates itself.
The idea of taking a break sounds reasonable. Time to get over old hurts, maybe analyze and improve presentation, maybe question one’s own preferences, and so on. A subset of people likely is drawn to online dating due to the idea of finding someone special with fewer dates.
happygirl 49
Cilla post 2…I can totally identify with you. I took myself of all the dating websites and decided to take a complete break. Dating is exhausting and not always an easy thing to do.Let’s be honest here.
Believe me I do have a positive outlook and don’t easily give up on anything and I am always willing to look at dating in a different way and learn. Dating does however wear you out after a while.
I have not dated for 4 months now, during that time I did go out but focused more on making new friends. I build a great new circle of friends and we have dinners together and try to organize fun events to do. I also go out on my own. Eventually when I feel ” energized and recharged” I will go back on a dating site and try again……
amy 50
Sure. A good sense of the numbers is always a help. When I start feeling like there must just be something wrong with me that I can’t find a guy I’d want to go to the movies with, I call a friend and we reassess:
-I’m looking for a Jewish guy, and I live in the rural midwest. Right away we’ve cut the pool down to about 30 in a 150-mile radius.
- I’m looking for a sane guy who’s extremely bright, has a very fine ear for fiction and poetry, thinks it’s important to care of himself, and won’t ask me for a loan. (Now we’re down to six in the entire country.)
- He should be nice, and funny, and able to tolerate me. He should also be a grownup and have some sense of the compromise, self-denial, and responsibility that come with being a grownup. I don’t need manifestos at this point.
- He should be interested in a 40something single mother, and should understand that spontaneous fun dates aren’t likely here unless they’re midday, when the kid’s in school.
- He should not want to get married or live with me. I’m looking for a companion, not a husband.
- He shouldn’t be married.
- He should also have his own work, something that interests and absorbs him, and he should do it well.
The pool, it’s not large. I understand this. But, you know. You have to stay open, that’s all. I believe he’s out there. Why not?
Shay 51
Since January 2010, I have been to 4 singles events and 2 blind dates. I have 5 guys who exchanged contact with me. Been out on 2 one on one dates.
The guys I’ve met are pretty lukewarm. Things seemed to be moving on very slowly.
But, oh yes. This is a good post for me to read and re-read again when things are not going well to give myself a pick-me-up.
Tia 52
oh yes, DAFT , dating fatigue and tiredness syndrome lol. been there. not every personality is made for the dating game, especially online, for some it is nervewracking (literally) the rejection, the vulnerability we must show, yet the tough steel rigidness when we act like ” we don’t care” . I wen’t thru it, and it didn’t take 19 dates, it only took about 4 on a personal sites before i nearly said hell with it altogether. When i was out with a guy i was having fu n with, i was having fun, but wondering would i see him again.. lol.
i lucked up on a nice guy, my current beau and 9 months later i am happy that i kept on. We both discussed this and agreed the constant meeting someone new and getting it together for the next person was exhausting, but the truth is, even when your’e dating and married , the game is not really over.
live in the moment. if you are feeling emotionally worn out from it all, take a break and pamper
yourself, do not try and juggle more dates and personalities than you can handle either, you will be become cynical
i had to remember, love may be around the next corner. won’t it be worth it to laugh about with someone you adore years down the road.
starthrower68 53
Tia,
I am pretty worn out by all of it, I admit. When you’re the provider, protector, chief cook and bottle washer, and whatever else the world demands that I be, I don’t have too much emotional and mental energy left. Especially when you take into consideration all the issues we discuss here. I’m not going to be intellectually dishonest and say that the right guy wouldn’t make me change my mind, but I’m still wrestling with it. I go through periods where I can just relax and have fun with it, then I go through periods where it pisses me off, then I go through periods where I’m just apathetic about meeting anyone. One really has to fight that apathy; in order to date successfully, a woman has to do what is counterintuitive which takes a great deal of mental energy because we have to be mindful to combat those impulses that women are hard wired to follow. Then, when he goes poof, we have to combat the questions about what we might have done wrong, or just buck up and move on, etc. That is not to bash men, because I know women have just as many issues. And some people are just more naturally easygoing about the whole process, while others aren’t and burn out easily.
Jordan 54
I gave up on “dating” a long time ago. Instead, I became rich. Now, women throw themselves at me. I wake up at noon everyday, watch sports and porn, and guzzle beer.
Get sex whenever I want and don’t have to deal with the BS of relationships.
I would recommend this to any man in the world.
Joanne 55
You know Evan, I do believe that I am already and probably always have moved past or ignored my past experience with men………..I am definitely dating differently, less frequently….. and more openly and with men that are not “the ideal” match I thought I wanted, past the men that make me tingle at meeting, removed the (way too young) FWB out of my life to clear the way, to meet the man I want to spend the rest of my life with, and the reason is that I want the things that you spoke about in your last newsletter. I mean in my own life surrounded by girl friends, whom I love dearly, and who are very carried away with looks and money, I have always been the one to know that money comes and goes, looks come and go, work comes and goes, I want the man who will show me he can and wants to give me his love, wants to love me as much as I want love him.
So though I do feel as if I am dating differently, I must be doing something wrong, and really am not sure what specifically I have to change? I deal in specifics much better than concepts. I am getting even more responses, to emails that I write to men (your way).. sure there are some that don’t want to respond to my written email, or some that tell me they are not interested, or don’t answer…some that take me for first date and don’t want the second date…….., I am right past these, never take them personally and never let them deter me from writing to ten others. But blessed or not, there are more that want to meet me and take me out once, and then for the second date. I really want to want that………but am not feeling anything, that I find myself focusing on the guilt I would feel leading a man on.
I feel as if I am just not meeting the right man, or if I am… I clearly cannot identify him………….or I am just pretty worn out by it all..
Jack @ I Love Your Accent 56
As with most things, dating can be a numbers game. It can be a disheartening endeavor at times but ultimately you have to sincerely believe that the next date will be successful beyond your wildest expectations or else you could very well end up getting pretty down on yourself.
Sayanta 57
To Jordan, 54-
Ummm…ok. So why read a blog about relationships? (assuming you’re not trolling here).
Also, for online female daters out there, I’m curious- how has your experience been with the ‘nervousness’ factor of the opposite sex. I seem to be noticing that guys online, when we end up chatting on the phone, are stammering so much, or not letting me get a word in edgewise, that I almost can telepathically see beads of sweat glistening on their foreheads. Now, I know, I know, that I should be compassionate because the poor guys are just nervous. But some of these men are 35, and talking to me like they’re 12, and it’s their first time talking to a girl! I’m not saying they’re not nice, attractive guys, but I don’t know…this irks me.
So, do you think that online daters are more socially awkward than people you meet at ‘events?’ I’m trying to do a personal survey here- lol- and I realize I’ve met my share of awkward men in real life too (albeit in higher numbers online). Is this related to the kind of people who go to dating sites, or is it just an inevitable result of a culture that’s becoming more and more isolated from personal interactions face-to-face?
Liz 58
@Sayanta – I’d think that online guys would definitely be more awkward. The same could be said for women, I suppose. I mean, let’s face it: some people use online dating as a last resort to pick up the slack of their difficulty meeting dates in “real life.” I don’t think it’s crazy that socially awkward people would be particularly drawn to online dating. I mean, you don’t even have to leave the house.
Jen A. 59
Excuse for saying, but I don’t want to go on that many dates with that many guys. I know what Evan would say: that I won’t find the one then. But I found my first husband the old fashioned way, without the internet. I will augment nature’s (God’s) process for my life with match.com, but I will use email and talking to weed most people out. I don’t feel like wasting my time on that many dates…it’s awkward and exhausting. And I think that plays into the jaded part of it. I still believe in being genuine and meaningful, so to treat dating like getting on a carousel doesn’t work for me. I’m not saying dates should mean everything, but they shouldn’t mean so little either. I tend to go out with groups of friends, with men being part of the group, to get to know local men. Easier than staring each other down over a dinner table with some kind of expectation.
Hannah 60
Evan – What happened to this client? I’d be curious to know. I just got off the phone with a sobbing girlfriend who is also 33 years old and a great catch, but was just broken up with. I would love to hear some encouragement!
Londongirl 61
Just what I needed to read today…I’m a 34 year old bright, intelligent woman who gets buckets of attention, but yet have not met the right man. I’ve often felt like giving up on dating. I had what I thought was a great date last weekend, but have not heard from him since! I’ve been feeling pretty dejected, but take comfort from the fact that I refused to sleep with him (god knows he tried) and actually probably had a lucky escape. I know deep down its worth waiting for a man who appreciates me and I’m glad I kept my self-respect. I’ve learnt a lot from Evan and am slowly getting there. So while I still feel a bit crappy today, I’m going to keep smiling and keep going
Mao 62
Hi Evan – I am so there right now. I’m 41 and totally discouraged about dating. I seem to meet “nice guys” who always have something wrong with them. Its like I attract them like flies! In the past two years :
I dated a guy who (unknown to me) was also dating another girl. We were going out every week and talked about everything – but she was meeting his family – spending weekends with him. UGH! Then he tells me I didn’t “measure up” and “confesses” about her. Pissed at me being upset because in his view – he was being “honest”. He goes “She knew about you and she didn’t mind!” Say what?!
I dated another guy who was a high school sweetheart…turns out he was a very married drug addict and went into rehab. Everything he told me was a lie. I never understood – why lie? Scary!
Next guy seemed cool – he doesn’t make a lot of money but that’s not important to me – he works as a janitor at a local hospital – been there for 20 years. The problem – he’s 43 and acts like an 15 year old. By this I mean : not going to work on the Monday cause he slept all weekend and didn’t do his laundry for the past three weeks so he didn’t have any clean socks or underwear. He lives like a pig (food containers all over his condo – his coffee table was layered in dried ketchup and other unidentified condiments! Very selfish, self-centered and inconsiderate of others. He has this maniacal laugh that just freaks me out (ie – he called me one night and after asking me a question – starts laughing hysterically. I ask him what’s wrong – he was listening to TV and not me! So why call me?)
So as you can see – completely discouraged! UGH!
M 63
I’m trying to figure out the opening. This woman has such “high standards” that 9 out of 10 men don’t measure up? Now is it that they have different core values, or political or religious differences that are unbridgeable? Or is it what I think, that they’re just not good enough for her? And then it says it will take her more time to find Mr. Wonderful “than it takes other women” who presumably don’t have as high of standards.
If a woman told me before a date that only 1 in 10 men meet her “high standards” I would tell her on the spot that guess what, you don’t meet mine and this date is cancelled before it starts.
We men are entirely too eager to please some of these women. No matter how inflated their opinion of themselves is, they are ordinary humans just like us and no better or worse than us. Our interests on a date matter as much as theirs.
Fiona 64
i’m a british lawyer at 36 about to turn 37. My last boyfriend that i was deeply in love with left me when i turned 35 leaving me alone and childless. i have tried eharmony, match affinity etc but so many men are just looking for something better. i wasted two weeks on long email exchanges to a 40 year old male lawyer who asked me on a date then twice changed the time and then cancelled saying he had decided to date someone else instead not having met me. tonight a 38 year old male friend confided that he only dates women in their 20s. i feel i have spent my entire life looking for a husband and family and finding only pain. i just can’t keep going like a machine and am now inclined to give up on love altogether and focus only on career and money. just how much do we have to take before it really is time to quit? when are we on the shelf? i think i am.
M 65
Fiona, I’m 51 and have only had one girlfriend ever, and that was more than 25 years ago. Who on earth knows why some of us have life so much more difficult than others, or why we are here in the first place? The perspective I try to give myself each day is that I have my physical health by and large, I have a roof over my head and food in the kitchen, and I have a brother, nephews and a handful of friends who love me. I do better sometimes if I resist overthinking my many shortcomings and failures.
Karl R 66
M said: (#65)
“I’m 51 and have only had one girlfriend ever, and that was more than 25 years ago. Who on earth knows why some of us have life so much more difficult than others,”
If you haven’t had a girlfriend in the last 25 years, then you are the cause of the problem.
One of my uncles is about 80. For most of the past 25 years he has been in steady, long-term relationships (with two different women). When it comes to attracting a woman, he has far more strikes against him than you do.
My uncle is bipolar, an amputee and a hoarder. He’s obese and physically unattractive. He has an abrasive personality and abyssmal table manners. Can you honestly claim that he’s in a better position than you?
In another post you stated that you have severe depression. Are you getting any treatment for it? While depression might not be the only thing that’s hampering you, I think it could be the primary reason you’ve been so unsuccessful.
Depression saps your initiative. (When my depression kicks up, that’s usually the first symptom I recognize.) As a man, initiative is absolutely essential to dating success. If you wait for women to take the initiative in dating, you could be waiting for years between opportunities.
Depressed people have a tendency to be self-absorbed. Your posts have given me the impression that you may share this trait. Relationships require you to connect with other people. Self-absorption interferes with that.
As I mentioned previously, depressed people aren’t much fun. They generally don’t want to go out and do things. They spend large amounts of time going on-and-on about their own troubles (which gets boring after a while).
And depression lends itself to a defeatist attitude. Dating requires perseverence. Depression makes it easier to just give up.
M said: (#65)
“I do better sometimes if I resist overthinking my many shortcomings and failures.”
I think you’d do a lot better all of the time if you addressed your depression, which seems to be the root cause of the problem.
Zaq 67
@Fiona @64
I have spent a great deal of time researching this.
Why as a man am I more attractive to women than I was decades ago ?
I have come to the conclusion that it is just due to the VALUE system applied by the genders. The EQUITY theory of love.
What are we bringing to the table ?
For a woman her value lies in her fertility.
For a man his value lies in his wealth and confidence.
You are not on the shelf, BUT you must recognize if you haven’t already, that a professional male friend has value when a professional female does not.
You have plenty of choice in men over 50 and beta males closer to your age.
Evan Marc Katz 68
Hey Zaq,
Women who are over 45 are still perfectly “valuable” to men who don’t want kids. Please don’t suggest otherwise. Men and women both value confidence above ANYTHING.
Evan
M 69
Karl I think you are trying to be helpful and that is a good thing.
I take antidepressants every day and I am better off for it. The gain I receive is being significantly less depressed than I would be (and have been) without them. They certainly don’t kick me over into the happy category. While I have wearied of seeing a psychotherapist because I didn’t feel much benefit from it, I am going to take part in a self esteem support group starting next week. I have always had zero self esteem and detested myself.
Also, I have been a hoarder from my earliest memories and it is absolutely a habit that has had a tremendously negative effect on my life.
If you think that I don’t realize I have many shortcomings, that is not accurate.
However, I am not the only guy in the world who thinks that relationship wise, women are often a pain in the rear. They are able to be because they know how badly we want to be with them.
Fiona 70
Gosh Zaq- I am not sure how old you are but I certainly wouldn’t want to date anyone at any age who thinks professional women have no value. We do and not only in the workplace. Frankly the money comes in handy when you want a decent house and lifestyle and us lawyers are great at solving all sorts of life problems…and no I do not think at turning 37 I should be dating men in their 50s (although I would date men up to mid 40s).
My ex was 8 years younger (big mistake) but I have also been asked on dates this year (in real life out of the cyberworld) by attractive men in their early 30s so I am no troll either.
I am however just tired of the dating game right now – people who set up dates and cancel at the last minute, men who mess me around by being dishonest. It is just very disheartening at this age because I know the pool of suitable men is smaller than the women but I guess I am just going to have to hope for the best and get back out there much as the thought of corresponding with some of these men online sends a shudder down my spine!
Karl R 71
Fiona said: (#40)
“It is just very disheartening at this age because I know the pool of suitable men is smaller than the women”
How do you figure that?
I just looked at the U.S. Census data for 2010. The total number of unmarried men, ages 35-39, is about 3.5 million. The total number of unmarried women, ages 35-39, is about 3.4 million. Unmarried men outnumber unmarried women in your age range.
For comparison, the total number of unmarried men, ages 40-44, is about 3.5 million. So even if we assume that women are (on average) marrying a men who are a little older, men still outnumber women.
I realize that you spoke specifically about suitable men (and women), not total men (and women). How are you defining a suitable man (as compared to a suitable woman)?
Saint Stephen 72
@Karl R (#71) To fiona’s credit, she did use the word suitable. I believe that in terms of suitability other factors will be taking into consideration when assessing men in her chosen demography as being suitable. E.g of such factors are, Looks, height, educational level, job and income level, shared values, confidence and social status and “the desire to get married”. Karl, the desire for marriage is a potential factor which could explain the disparity in unmarried men and women and also makes the stats you cite up less relevant in her case. If more women are willing to get married – then the availability of men outnumbering the women wouldn’t stack the odds in her favor either. My point here is; the men who meets all her requirement might be less interested in getting married: maybe at least to her. On a final note: Fiona indicated she’s British, not American. That in itself certainly renders the statistics being used invalid at best.
Fiona 73
I live in the UK so this is irrelevant. In my generation educated women outnumber educated men. I suppose that you will now say who cares about education? Well I do because every semi-intelligent British man with any ambition in life has one because it was free back then!
Zaq 74
@Fiona
Sorry for being blunt.
Again Saint Stephen makes the valid points. “Suitable” equals higher value in the eyes of other women.
The point is made over and over again. If the men who are in demand are the minority, and most of those are married, then there is indeed a disparity.
Higher value men will seek out higher value women, and it is YOUTH that men value. Doesn’t matter if you are looking for an equal in social status, he may not be. Younger men do not mind sex with an older women, but probably not commitment.
Therefore start considering men outside of your current target range. Your friend has already told you he dates women in their 20s.
Things stay on the shelf only when the ready market for that good is not being allowed to make a reasonable offer.
Fiona 75
@ Zaq, you make an interesting point about ages but:
- my Mum is 3 years older than my Dad and they are still married 40 years on
- My Gran was 5 years older than my Granddad and they stayed married for 60 years – he was devastated when she died
- My Great-grandmother spent the last 10 years of her life with a man 20 years her junior
so some evidence that (a) I come from a great gene pool, and (b) younger men sometimes really do like older women and not only for sex! Hey, you should try it sometime because looks fade and then you are left with the person inside. That hot 26 year old may not still be hot at 36…and certainly not at 86. However, I won’t try to convince you because you want what you want as does my friend, Rob and he doesn’t seem to be close to finding anyone soon because he won’t compromise either.
I however am compromising. I am looking at an age range of up to 45, I am not being fussy about height and average looks will do. I don’t agree that I need to go higher than that as most of the men that contact me online are between 33 – 43 anyway and most of the men in the real world between 27-32 (mainly because they think I am in my early 30s). I know that realistically 32 is the lower age limit that might want to settle down so I don’t go lower than that anyway. I am not going to compromise on absolutely everything though.
If I am still single, it is partly because I made some really bad dating decisions when I was younger and I was silly enough to spend 7 years living in Switzerland (which is notoriously bad for meeting people). I am however back in the UK now and I may be paying the price for my folly by having lots of bad dating experiences which leave me feeling fed up and lonely but I am going to carry on and wait until I find someone in my target market that likes me and likes me back.
Elizabeth 76
I recently had a friend tell me, “when you least expect it, you will find the perfect man”…or better yet “he will find you–when you are not looking”. Guess what. I have stopped looking at one point for a good 2-4 years–and I was single. “Prince Charming” didn’t come knocking on my apt. door, looking for me. There was a point in my life, where I never though about dating, or looked to be with someone–and guess what? It didn’t happen when I wasn’t looking either. Such horseshit. Why do people believe this nonsense, that love will present itself when you least expect it? I suppose the love of my life will come find me at the gym or at my yoga class, which is primarily what I do. don’t care for bars at all.
For Fiona@75: I am also very open to dating men older than me, even though I get approached by younger men (in their 30′s)…I actually WANT to meet a man my age or a bit older, who are into fitness and the outdoors. But Those men are looking for women in their 30′s it seems. So what am I left with dating – men in their 50′s and 60′s? Who barely have any energy…can barely play a game of tennis or go running? Not looking for super successful men either. Just a hard working guy who is not pretentious or self-centered or too impressed with his title and his possessions. Someone beautiful on the “inside” preferably over surface looks. Still seems like I am trying to win the lotto here.