What It’s Like to Be a Woman In Online Dating

It’s an age old story.

Man goes on dating site.

Man assumes women have it easy because they get a ton of attention.

Man poses as woman on dating site to prove his point.

Man barely lasts two hours as a woman because the responses from his fellow men are so toxic.

Men scramble to approach women like rats chewing on a meaty chicken bone, and then wonder why women are so turned off by them.

Yeah, that’s about right.

Says the clueless man in question, “At first I thought it was fun, I thought it was weird but maybe I would mess with them or something and freak them out and tell them I was a guy or something, but as more and more messages came (either replies or new ones I had about 10 different guys message me within 2 hours) the nature of them continued to get more and more irritating. Guys were full-on spamming my inbox with multiple messages before I could reply to even one asking why I wasn’t responding and what was wrong. Guys would become hostile when I told them I wasn’t interested in NSA sex, or guys that had started normal and nice quickly turned the conversation into something explicitly sexual in nature. Seemingly nice dudes in quite esteemed careers asking to hook up in 24 hours and sending them naked pics of myself despite multiple times telling them that I didn’t want to.”

As a male coach for smart, strong, successful women, I apologize on behalf of all men. They’re generally not evil people. But they really don’t get what it’s like to walk a mile in your shoes. I wrote about this in Finding the One Online extensively – what it’s like to be a woman dating online and how men need to up their games to connect. Hell, I just gave a TEDx talk about this very thing. Men scramble to approach women like rats chewing on a meaty chicken bone, and then wonder why women are so turned off by them. Says the original author:

“I would be lying if I said it didn’t get to me. I thought it would be some fun thing, something where I would do it and worse case scenario say “lol I was a guy I trolled you lulz”, etc. but within a 2 hour span it got me really down and I was feeling really uncomfortable with everything. I figured I would get some weird messages here and there, but what I got was an onslaught of people who were, within minutes of saying hello, saying things that made me as a dude who spends most of his time on 4chan uneasy. I ended up deleting my profile at the end of 2 hours and kind of went about the rest of my night with a very bad taste in my mouth.”

I apologize on behalf of all men. They’re generally not evil people. But they really don’t get what it’s like to walk a mile in your shoes.

Well, duh. Welcome to Understanding the Opposite Sex 101, dude. It should be a required experience for men – just as approaching men and getting rejected dozens of times should be a required experience for women.

Ladies, have you ever had a similar experience to this woman? Guys, were you aware of how bad women have it?

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Comments:

  1. 31
    Tatiayna

    Online dating is seriously detrimental to your emotional health. The fact that men don’t read profiles and send emails to women they have zero in common with, in any way. Is the number 1 reason , online dating is such a failure..

    1. 31.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      If online dating is such a failure, how come 20-30% of all marriages are now beginning online?

      1. 31.1.1
        wade

        Next time you drive by a university, go park in the visitor parking area, and take a stroll into one of the classroom hall ways. Everybody has their face glued to a smart phone, and is not talking to the person beside them. They very nearly ignore the person beside them even if they are talking.

        That many marriages are starting online, because people are living in a fantasy world.

        This computer is a fantasy world that is unhealthy to me, as it replaces normal activity. 

        Divorce rates are about the same as ever, so OLD isn’t “helping” anything.

        If you can’t respond to someone’s best, which is what they are putting in their profile, then you aren’t going to respond to them in real life, where all their flaws are known.

        they say they want honesty. They do not.

        They want a fantasy that no guy can live up to. They want a guy to somehow have the “virtues” of a 33 years old virgin, but the experiences of a 33 years old player, but they’ll date neither individually…at least not until they get very desperate, or until your income eclipses about the 75k to 100k mark. Then they’ll date you even if they are otherwise not interested in you at all. Girl in Texas on a certain site told me she’d date me…if I made more money. She already made more than the national household average, and she’s complaining about money.

        It’s fake.

        Sex would be nice and everything, I’m sure, but a relationship with that person would suck. I say that as a person who wants marriage and a child or two. It would suck to be in a relationship with most of the women on online dating sites.

        They are:

        Uneducated, even the ones with degrees are generally less educated than me, and I don’t have a degree. I’m going back to college now; anxiety doesn’t help a 17 year old pass an Engineering program at a major university, so 16 years later, literally another life time, I’m back trying it again, and I’m literally no different now than then, except I’m on anxiety and depression medications. Haven’t had a date in my life. I guess the only good thing in all this is I’m passing my classes, but if I don’t write that damned English paper by the morning I’m going to lose 5% of my grade. No big deal, this post is bigger than that paper has to be, so it’s not like it’s hard or anything.

        Several years ago this woman, “Vicky” (real name btw) told me to stop making generalizations. I tried to take her advice, but try as I might, I found out the generalizations were generally right. The more I tried not to generalize about women, the more I realized they were almost always right anyway.

        Back then, it was one of these 20-something on 20-something discussions and her position was basically, “i wouldn’t date you but somebody might” kind of thing. 

        Any negative condition you might find yourself in is like that. Nobody “gets it” and they really can’t help you, unless they’ve actually been there themself.

        What does a person who’s been married for their entire life know about advising a person who’s the same age and never had a date?

        Nothing, that’s what. They married their high school sweetheart, because for whatever reason they developed a relationship with a person very early on in life, and they’ve no Idea on earth what it’s like to be someone like me. Yet they think they have some insight, and ironically they’ve only ever dated one person, and it worked out on the first try. They really don’t even know anything themselves, because the person they are with liked them from the start on the first try. I saw those relationships. I can go to my facebook page and pull up about 50 “friends” who are like that. It’s as if it just fell in their lap.

        Not exactly, but you get the point. I know a guy my age who’s been married since he was 19, and has been pastoring a church, and it’s like “really?” Does this guy know anything at all abotu being a single adult?

        Answer? No. he’s been married since he graduated high school, but he’s “pastoring” people who have life experiences that he is completely ignorant of.

        And on the other hand, you have the catholic church, where priests are sworn to celibacy (please God no) and they are advising married couples. What the hell is this?

        this is the insane world I live in, and I wonder why nothing works.

        If there’s a woman on here who actually understands what I’m talking about, and doesn’t think I’m a complete jerk at this point, hey, I’d like to chat, because maybe you see what I see.

        That whole “Pastoral counsel” situation is not amusing to me. It’s insane and it’s out of order.

        As a Christian I’m supposed to marry a Christian, but I don’t want a Christian, because Christians don’t know what love is. They only have fantasies and religion.

        I figured if I gave some of those “less desirables” a chance, and I really loved her, if she’d respond anyway, hey, that’s better than the fake BS mainstream Christianity does with relationships.

        I used to be “marriage before sex” belief.

        I don’t believe that any more. It’s stupid. It hurt me by making me less and less what women want anyway.

        You don’t want that.

        I thought I was supposed to be that, because that’s what Christianity is all about in terms of natural, earthly living, but it’s not at all what’s practical or realistic, and it’s hurtful.

        I had an older cousin who joked at me one time, long time ago, something like, “you wouldn’t buy a car without a test drive…” In response to sex and marriage.

        I looked down on that remark for a long time, but he was right.

        It might be against what the church teaches, and it might even be against what the Bible itself says, but he was right. It’s actually more loving too, when you think about it.

        “True love waits” thing, I mentioned.

        I believed that. I lived that. I lived it more closely and correctly than the people preaching it.

        It was  a false doctrine, which destroyed my life.

        Is that what women want to hear?

        When you “good” christian, try to justify your desires and such, you claim you want(ed) that, but you don’t want the person it produced. 

        Hey, I’m not the hypocrite, because I actually did want what it was supposed to produce in a woman, or so I thought.

        But it’s a lie. You believe it because it sounds so good, but then half a life time later when you realize it hasn’t lead to anything except lonliness (a trait women also don’t want)  then you realize you’re screwed, and not in a good way.

        You don’t want loneliness.

        Hey 33 yr old virgin can’t help but be lonely.

        All my guy friends are either married, dead, or moved to another state, so I rarely, if ever, get to be around anyone.

        You don’t want “neediness”, but what the hell does that mean anyway? I don’t even know exactly what you mean by that in the context of dating, because I can’t help but want sex, even though I never get it, but you put me in an impossible situation where no matter what I try I cannot be what you claim you want. If you were stranded in the middle of nowhere long enough, you’d start to need things too, and what? If I walk by and you ask for help, should I say, “wow. You needy thing, I don’t want anything to do with you.”

        Great. who’s wronging who here?

        You don’t want “clingy”.

        I don’t even know what you mean by that. Never had a real date, so what the hell do I know about whatever boundaries you consider “clingy”? Nothing. I wouldn’t know if I was breaking your boundary or not, because I’ve never been there with anyone, much less you, but you’ll hold it against me either way.

        Guess what? Television romances are fake. The irony is women watch shows like soap operas and formerly Sex and the City, and the primary content of the show is everything the same women claim they don’t want to deal with, one player cheating with another’s wife, or ex, or whoever, Thsi one has amnesia and can’t remember who she was screwing last week, and that one has secretly the other guys baby…but they continually fill their head with it every day…

        …but it’s the guy’s fault, right?

         
        If I can find a woman who’ll admit how absolutely screwed up and hypocritical those standards are, then I’ll have some sort of common ground. 

      2. 31.1.2
        Traveller

        @Evan:

        I’m HIGHLY suspicious of that figure. According to another OKCupid study, (using figures released by eHarmony and Match.com, as well as their own) it’s actually more like about 6 to 7% – the online dating companies have a large incentive to inflate their figures to make themselves look better.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Yeah, and I’m highly suspicious of any person who questions a study because it contradicts what he wants to believe.

          http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/03/study-a-third-of-new-marriages-began-with-online-meetings

          You are Exhibit A for Confirmation Bias – you look for all sorts of things to validate your opinions, even when they’re false. But your opinions aren’t facts. Fact: You have a better chance with women your own age than women 10 years younger. Fact: online dating is huge and successful. You just want excuses to justify your worldview. Sorry. My facts beat your feelings.

        2. Traveller

          @Evan:

          Even, you’re very fond of accusing others of what you do yourself. Take “confirmation bias”. You run a service promoting online dating, so of course you want to find things that would encourage the view that that’s a good thing.

          I hadn’t seen this study, but using the link you offered (thank you) I note that the study was done by eHarmony themselves. A more biased source I can hardly imagine.

          Your opinions aren’t facts, either. If you want to play dueling studies, I can dig up the OKCupid study, which flat-out contradicts this one. All that that proves is that the issue is in question.

          I’m more concerned about your tone, which is decidedly snotty, and not like you. I questioned the study because I had seen prior evidence to the contrary, not because I personally care one way or the other. I hope our discussion earlier didn’t get too heated, to the point where you’re taking things personally. If I offended you, then I apologize, and will try to tread more lightly in the future. Have a good night!

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          “Harris Interactive was commissioned by eHarmony.com to perform a nationally representative survey of individuals in America married between 2005 and 2012. Harris Interactive was not involved in data analyses…To ensure the integrity of the data and analyses and in accordance with procedures specified by JAMA, independent statisticians oversaw and verified the statistical analyses based on a prespecified plan for data analyses. In addition, an agreement with eHarmony was reached prior to the analyses of the data to ensure that any results bearing on eHarmony.com would not affect the publication of the study. The materials and methods used (including the Harris Survey, Codebook, and Datafile) are provided in the Appendix S1, Appendix S2, and Dataset S1 to ensure transparency and objectivity.”

          And you’re right. I am being snotty. It’s unbecoming. But I gotta admit: I get very tired of people asserting that their feelings override facts, and very tired of conspiracy theorists who don’t trust anything that contradicts their own narrative.

          I don’t believe in online dating because I have an online dating profile writing site. I believe in online dating because online dating works. Your logic would suggest that one should stop going to the gym because there are still a lot of fat people.

          So while you can suggest that you’re the objective one here and I’m the emotional one, I think it’s simply hard for you to admit that online dating is an extremely popular vehicle that helps strangers meet. It’s not brilliant about matching or compatibility. It simply does what the internet does: make the world smaller and give people a chance to connect who would never meet in real life. No amount of bars, parties, churches, and social networking can reach as many folks instantly as an online dating site. This is why it’s so popular. This is why I’ve tried it, my wife has tried it, my sister met her husband on Nerve.com, my oldest girl friend met her husband on eHarmony, my wife’s best friend met her husband on Match and hundreds of my clients have also found love online, including an engagement I just heard about on Valentine’s Day.

          So forgive me if I’m a bit dismissive of the “online dating sucks, the opposite sex is unfair” crowd. I’ve been battling women who say the same thing for years, and you just happened to tee yourself up as the latest victim who believes that the world is conspiring against them, as opposed to the following: you can have better photos, you can have a better profile, you can write better emails, you can reach out to more appropriate women, you can rid yourself of this sheen of victimhood and negativity, and so on.

          Much easier to change yourself than it is to change Match, women or the Pacific Northwest, dontcha think?

        4. Traveller

          @Evan:

          Yeah, I saw that disclaimer. It’s pretty much meaningless. Studies get published all the time like that, and later get discredited because they used a poor sampling method, or the interpretation of the results wasn’t justified by the way the data was acquired, or a dozen other reasons.

          You’re consistently misinterpreting my motivations, Evan. This issue has NOTHING to do with my feelings, and everything to do with yours. I have no feelings either one way or the other about online dating sites in general; I neither love them nor dislike them. I’ve used them and my conclusion is that they are beneficial for a small number of people, and not terribly so for most. But that’s merely an opinion, and it’s not worth getting mad over an opinion.

          My logic is that gyms work great for those who have the time, money, dedication and ability to get to them easily. For most of the rest, not so much. But again, that’s my opinion, and frankly, I doubt that any gym operators care much about my opinion. 😉

          I would agree with you completely that online dating is popular. Extraordinarily popular. So popular, in fact, that it even attracts people who aren’t well served by online dating. That’s not a criticism of the venue, just a note that not everyone does equally well in all situations.

          I’m really amused at your attempts to paint me with various brushes – unconfident, negative, a victim, etc. I’m none of those things, and I certainly don’t buy into conspiracy theories. (I know all too well how hard it is for even two people to keep a secret, let alone any larger ‘conspiracy’!)

          Look, I understand you feel attacked, and I didn’t mean that. Come on, let’s drop it and stop arguing. I think you’re a good guy, and I admire your efforts and the fact that you’ve built an excellent business, and I’d like to be friends. I’m sorry we got off on the wrong foot. I’ll try to be more diplomatic in the future. Deal?

          By the way, my name is Michael. Nice to meet you!

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Michael, you’re a good guy. You’ve been diplomatic. I haven’t. I just firmly disagree with your assertion, and, like any disagreement, feel that I have the facts on my side. Sorry I wasn’t more respectful in my comments.

    2. 31.2
      Wade

      I read every profile, the ones that actually contain anything.

      Most of them do not contain anything except a canned soup statement.

      I try to only write to women I have at least a few things in common with, but quite honestly there are very, very, very few women who have anything in common with me.

      the number 1 reason, in my experience, that online dating is such a failure is:

      I spend 30 minutes to an hour preparing my first post to a woman, and she doesn’t give a damn and doesn’t respond.

      You’re clueless girl.

      Seriously, you think GUYS are at fault for this?

      In my case, having certain types of things in common with a woman is simply not possible, because I have been single my entire life and don’t have those experiences.

      If I put that I’m a 33 year old virgin in my profile, and I know, most of you have no interest in that.

      If I do not put that, you’re going to find out anyway, because hey, let’s face it, I’ve never done anything. Then I’ll be accused of “lying” or something similar, when it becomes obvious.

      So I lose either way.

      But you just go right ahead blaming guys for “not reading” profiles.

      You know what, I doubt the avg 4 paragraph first message I send to women ever gets read. They probably just trash it, along with the crap from the jerks you’re talking about.

      Thanks for the waste of time, little girl.

       

      1. 31.2.1
        EmeraldDust

        Wade said ”
        If I put that I’m a 33 year old virgin in my profile, and I know, most of you have no interest in that.
        If I do not put that, you’re going to find out anyway, because hey, let’s face it, I’ve never done anything. Then I’ll be accused of “lying” or something similar, when it becomes obvious.



        Wade, no one expects you to put “virgin” in your profile, any more than someone would be expected to put their “number” in their profile.  (“number” meaning number of initimate partners)  No one will accuse of “lying” for not putting your sexual history in your profile.
         
        I used to respond to everyone who wrote to me, even if it was just to say, “Thanks for reaching out, but I don’t think we are a match”.  If there was a non-offensive reason such as too far away, too young, or a smoker, I would say so, but I was getting arguments. So now, I just generally don’t answer the ones I’m not interested in.  I also have some men write to me every few hours while I am at work or asleep, and start to demand a reason why I haven’t written to them.  Sometimes it takes me a couple of days to a week to respond to the ones I WANT to respond to due to work, other commitments, and yes, I am usually writing to a few at a time.  
        I know it must be hard for men, who have to do most of the initiating online, to get no response, but if I were to compare the number of views my profile gets compared to the number of e-mails I get, the ratio is pretty dismal.
        Men and women both get rejected.  The form the rejection takes might differ due to the general roles of men as pursuers and women as the responders.  Men get rejected when someone doesn’t respond to their pursuit.  Women get rejected when a man she sent “you may approach me” signals to, doesn’t respond. 

        1. Wade

          Emerald Dust:

          I used to attend church very regularly, and mostly the only thing it did was produce an unhealthy attitude which isolated me more from normal people.

          Around 10 years ago, I was a member of a 1500member congregation, and not one woman in the entire place ever initiated conversation with me, because “regularly church attending” Christian women are definitely even worse about this sort of thing than average women. They absolutely demand that the guy do everything, and they absolutely demand that the guy Work all day long while she keeps house, because for some ungodly reason, that’s what “Pastors” teach young women they’re supposed to do, but any guy who’s read Proverbs would know that’s about the exact opposite of what it says for a “prudent woman”.

          At this time, I was not yet diagnosed with the social anxiety, though I had it my entire life. I tried and tried to meet people and make friends, and never got beyond this circle of 4, and the 2 girls in that circle got married to the 2 guys, and I was left alone, and then one day these idiots attacked me over something irrelevant involving my father’s death, and I left the church. I visited a few times after that, and said good riddance afterwards.

          I stood in the first couple’s wedding for God’s sake, and I had been permanently “friend zoned” by the other girl, who I was really interested in.

          Basically, the entire experience was a gigantic waste of a couple years of my life, as there came a point where the only reason I was attending any more as for them, and then when that argument happened, I was out.

          They had the audacity to claim that my dad died early because there was some kind fo “sin” in his life.

          Seriously. Christians.

          One of my uncles was like, “whoever said that doesn’t know anything about Christianity”.

          There were four little wolves that I spent my time trying to be good to, because they seemed on the surface to be so nice and “perfect”.

          Evil.

          Very Evil “Christians”.

          Gotta love ’em though, they’re “preaching everybody else into heaven,” and they’re on their way to hell.

          But I have it right, friend.

          Jesus said the Harlots and publicans enter into the Kingdom of Heaven before you. The Christians well know that verse, and yet they are worse for the wear.

          If you want to see a devil, go to church and talk to the pastor. “The Gospel can only go as far as a dollar bill can carry it,” he says. – I’ll leave that one anonymous. 

          Mission accomplished.

          Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, found out Church is about the worst place on Earth for two “Christians” to meet.

          I was there 5 days per week. I volunteered. I was, at one time, close to some pretty important people, and I confess that half the reason I was there was just as an excuse to be around this one girl. She was clueless though, and I was suffering from that anxiety problem and could never get over that approach anxiety thing to talk to her the way I’d like to, so it stayed “friend/acquaintance” zone for 2 years.

          In hind-sight, it’s a good thing I guess. I mean, given what happened in the end.

          Oh yeah, on the PUA thing, I’ve already tried that. I actually bought two different guy’s systems, trying to get help any way I could. It doesn’t help me because first of all, about half of it is actually illegal for one reason or another in the U.S. If a guy does that to a woman and she likes it, great. If he does it and she doesn’t like it, he gets a sexual harassment charge against him, or groping or inappropriate touching.

          Secondly I’m not good enough at conversation in person to even attempt to do the things he’s talking about. He makes it sound easy to go to the book store or coffee shop and get 10 women’s numbers in a day, and invite them to a club or whatever, and I’ve never gotten 5 women’s numbers in my life 

          I can’t help but laugh at myself.

          He’s doing this to manipulate people’s perceptions. He doesn’t care two whits about most of the girls he’s talking to. You know this and I know this, and the women on this blog would be disgusted if they saw how this works. He’s just getting a bunch of women in the club so he can suck up to the owner, then use his influence with the owner to suck up to someone else (a rich mark) which he uses the other guys money to attract one other girl he’s actually interested in so he can go sleep with her one time.

          That’s like everything that disgusts me…

          The other guy claims to be teaching a method of identifying what type a woman is in certain categories, which he’s using to try to predict certain things she’s likely to want/like or dislike, and so forth. Additonally physical escalation, which is very subtle manipulation of women’s physical, pscyhological barriers to touch, and if you read what he is describing, he is practically in the act fo raping a woman before she even knows it, assuming it works, she doesn’t even realize she’s having sex until she’s already having sex. Consent is never an issue, as she’s effectively being manipulated and hypnotized without conscious knowledge.

          Basically, it’s rape, and if the woman filed charges, she could potentially win.

          It’s basically a form of hypnosis or manipulation, which is exactly wht I don’t want to be. I quit reading his guide because of it. I can’t stand manipulating people like that.

          Take your typical “Christian” woman, and I mean a real believer. He would classify her “212” in his system (I’m not breaking his rules or revealing anything). His advice and dating strategy is literally to try to sleep with her as early as possible, preferably first date, because he knows that a Christian woman, is trying to live up to certain standards.

          His strategy then is to “break her”, so she is stuck with him psychologically, and he uses a subtle mind trick to do this to her over a period of 30 minutes to an hour, which I’ve seen the physical parts of what he was talking about, but I didn’t yet pay for the rest of it. Then he’s like, “She’ll be a great girlfriend if you can get this to work.” Oh really. Let’s just do exactly what she’s taught not to do with herself. Make a complete freaking mockery of everything we both believe in along the way too.

          Hey, maybe that’s what everyone else does anyway, and I’m just the idiot in the dark. Right?

          I didn’t get to some other parts yet, because he charges quite a lot of money for this, even if you do his cheap versions. He claims there are “code words” you can drop into a conversation which will instantly make a woman want to have sex with you, even if she doesn’t like you.

          Maybe I should get that part. If it works, no harm done I guess, because I don’t intend to use that to hurt anybody, but there is harm done, because I don’t want manipulation.

          I wanted “love”, but I’m learning that “love” is a lie. “Love” doesn’t work on dating sites, and it doesn’t work in real life. Maybe the guy is right. I don’t know. I don’t know what to think about the fact that he presents evidence and 800 interviews with women of all types who when put to the question admit they actually want what he’s doing, even if they wouldn’t admit it otherwise.

          but you can actually go to PRISON for doing some of this stuff, even with good intentions.

          But he proved they want it that way.

          Go figure.

          So the PUA advice is exactly what every Christian woman, or pretty much every woman, says they do not want, but he claims it works and it’s exactly what they want, and he gets it to work all the time, and so many of his group makes it work, and he had 800 individual documented interviews with women to prove it.

          If he’s telling the truth, then the lot of you on this thread are complete liars, and dating site women are all frauds, and the whole lot of everything I’ve ever thought I was doing to help myself was a waste.

          Look, that’s talking like step 20 anyway, and I can’t even get to step 2.

          My God, I don’t even know why I’m writing this any more. Every once in a while I end up on a blog complaining about how screwed up dating sites are, and also asking for a little, or a lot, of help in fixing myself.

          It’s not like there’s “fix a 33 year old virgin” classes at the local college or gym,you know.

          I don’t know what else to say.

          There’s several women I’ve written that God is my witness I’d die for. They seemed on their profile to be exactly what I needed, and they don’t know I exist. I’ve tried talking to every type of girl from “she’s really not what I’m interested in, but I’ll write her anyway,” to mildly attractive and seems to have interesting hobbies and such, to you know there’s the “one” that when you open the first page of a new search immediately catches your eye, and you know she’s not going to respond, but you write her anyway, because she’s the one you’re really interested in.

          Tried all that, and everything between.

          It’s disgusting to think that in a few cases I’ve actually had men, and even WOMEN, tell me I should lie in my profile.

          The younger woman tells me to “go older”.

          The older woman doesn’t want a 33 years old virgin.

          I do actually want a child or two some day, and “older” at this point is already getting out of the fertility range in some cases.

          My psychologist tells me I’m “normal”. That’ it is “normal” for people to have a hard time conversing.

          I call BS, because I’m currently attending a university. I see thousands of people around me talk to one another effortlessly. They laugh, they joke, they flirt with the girl, whatever. Me? I can be in an entire room and it’s like climbing up a muddy, steep bank of a river, with no hand-hold, to even get “Hello” to come out of my mouth, much less anything else.

          I told him that, I’ve told other people that, and it doesn’t get through their head that what I experience is far beyond normal “approach anxiety”.

          Church?

          I had a heart attack the first time I tried to introduce myself to a certain girl there. I mean heart attack, as in chest pain that stopped me dead in my tracks and brought tears, and scared the living hell out of me ten times worse than the original anxiety.

          As a Christian, for a while, I thought it was something “spiritual” that you could pray about or believe away.

          I used to go to the idiot pastor for help a time or two with this problem, and all they could say was pray harder, or some stupidity.

          Finally, a couple years ago, after a family member committed suicide, my sister was worried about me, so she insisted I go to a psychologist/psychiatrist, and that’s when they said I have severe generalized anxiety, severe social anxiety, primary depression.

          Going back to how bad the anxiety really is, I told my psychologist this stuff, and they don’t get it. I’m not exaggerating. He’s a good counselor and whatever, he’s simply never encountered someone with as big of a problem as I have, and it’s obvious to me, because his responses, his reactions to my descriptions of how hard this is, make it evident that he’s never dealt with anyone this closed off.

          Now of course, it’s a vicious cycle, and I know it, because it’s not just about me, it’s about the women too.

          They really don’t want a 33 yrs old virgin. Even if I could get over the anxiety and such, which I’m on a cocktail of meds for, they reject me anyway.

          I’ve tried talking to the girls at college, which I’m back attending at this age, and I’m surround by 19 to 25 yrs old girls, and they aren’t interested in a 33yrs old either, besides, I still have the same problem trying to talk to a 19 to 25 years old girl now as I did when I was 19 to 25 years old. Nothing’s changed, except now I’m less desirable than before, because I’m expected to be 10 years more successful or experienced in dating, and I’m not.

          I’ve watched my life just disappear like a piece of burning garbage, and I can’t even get a break from somebody on a dating site, where I thought it would be easier to introduce myself, and maybe some nice woman would like to meet, and the anxiety problem wouldn’t happen….

          And not one person has ever given me a chance.

          So what is supposed to be some form of help in finding someone or communicating is nothing more than another bondage to me.

        2. Wade

          The topic comes up, and it’s the truth. I don’t put it in every profile, but I have put it in there at times just to see how people responded, but the the difference between no responses and no responses is um….nothing.

          Look, here’s some other stuff about me.

          I don’t worship my car or 4-wheeler like other guys.
          I don’t watch NASCAR or rodeo. I think they are wasteful and stupid, and I don’t consider NASCAR a sport at all.

          I don’t go mud riding (I own a car) and I wouldn’t go mud riding if I had a truck.

          I don’t go to bars or clubs, because the places are horribly noisy. It’s bad enough to have anxiety, but worse when you try to talk to somebody and the damn music is so loud you can’t even hear their response, and I don’t like the types of music they play anyway. So it’s misery to me.

          I drank my first beer about 6 months ago, and realized I wasn’t missing anything, and can’t imagine why anyone would actually want to drink that. I don’t mean like the stupid movie “guy gags on his first drink” thing (It’s not like that). I mean it tastes like garbage. I can taste every element, wood, plastic, metal, rotten grain, everything, and it’s repulsive.

          Pathophysiology and anatomy course? Hmmm I got a higher score on both the male and the female anatomy than the women in my class, and they have kids, and I’m the single, never dated guy. Broke the curve I guess, so they threw my grade out. Books =/= life.

          Oh yeah, I don’t know what a “You may approach me” signal would be IRL. The few times I thought I was getting that, and tried to act on it somehow, I was clearly wrong. Never dated honey. I don’t know what you expect from me in terms of signals or body language or anything liek that. I just do not get that, unless it’s something just completely obvious like turning away or something, or verbal.

          If women’s views and expectations on dating behavior, or body language, etc, were in a large collection of books, and yours is a particular volume, let’s say it has your screen name, “Emerald Dust”. I never get to “read” any of hte books anyway, so I don’t know the language you speak beyond baby level literally, because I’ve never had the opportunity (at least since my deliverance from the stupidity of the first 2/3rds of my life).

          Now you expect me to know what your body language means:  Yes, you can come talk to me, no get the hell away, gee I’d like you to come closer, whatever it may be. I don’t get it usually. I’m quite often drawing the opposite conclusion of what you want. I don’t see those nuances, and I don’t have “girl friends” to help me understand how to get a “girlfriend” either.

          My inner thoughts are often clouded by alternative physics models, contemplation on how to explain mechanisms of the origin of the universe, memorizing Pi to 20 decimal places, nanotechnology and medicine, copper films on all  surfaces kill MRSA and VRSA for pennies on the dollar compared to antibiotics, but hospitals don’t use it because they actually want old people to die and get off medical programs, installing X number of money worth of solar power plants can pay off the Federal Debt in Y years and multiply the value of assets ten fold in the process, two orbiting objects have a larger sphere of gravitational influence than the same mass would have were it concentrated in one object at their barycenter, in a particular Real Time Strategy game, a certain race is over powered because they get ahead by 2 workers and a 100 resources within the first 3 minutes, and their economy is always stronger thereafter; Free will favors evil because “good” can only react. Preemption can’t stop evil because evil adapts faster. Murders can’t be prevented within the framework of our legal system, and they can’t be undone, they can only clean up the mess, The good guys always lose, regardless of what the score card says. Cain murdered Abel, and God didn’t lift a finger to help, he just watched it happen. A modern, “sinful” police officer would have stopped it had he been on the scene, Most random drunks would have tried to stop it had they been on the scene, but the “righteous, loving God” did absolutely nothing, and I don’t have an objective argument for how that can possibly be morally acceptable that an omnipotent being alleges to be “Love”, but stands by and watches a pointless murder and does nothing to help. So God did not protect Abel’s “good” free will, but he did protect Cain’s “evil” free will. And the same pattern has been repeated in the real world, over and over, whether or not the bible story is based on a true story.

          Understand?

          The lesson is, if you were doing something wrong, God would not step in and help, whether or not you wanted correction. If you were making a life decision that would hurt you or your children, whether or not you know it, or if you were accidentally hurting yourself or someone else, whether or not you know it, God doesn’t step in and correct you, even if it accidentally wrecks someone, even if someone ends up getting killed over it.

          There is no freedom in that. There is only evil.

          All of that and much more are things I think about all the time. Pretty well go in cycles on the moral and cosmological arguments.

          Dating is a matter of free will Hawking says, “is everything determined? yes, but it may as well not be, because you can’t tell the difference.” For example, you look both ways before crossing the street, even though you are either going to get hit, or not. If you don’t look both ways and you get hit, it’s your fault. on the other hand, if you look both ways and nothing’s coming, then looking was a waste of time, but it can’t be helped anyway.

          So anyway, if dating is a matter of free will, then since free will favors evil, which we can prove quite easily that it does, then it is impossible to love someone without inherently doing evil, ether directly or indirectly.

          Example:

          When  you love one person, you remove yourself from other people to spend time with them. Those other people “need” someone, and maybe they needed something you had to give and didn’t realize it, and now you didn’t “do” anything “wrong”, but you weren’t there to do something “right” that was needed either.  That person suffers for x number of years because they didn’t hear something they needed to hear at the right time to be encouraged, or make the right decision, or date the right person, or whatever.

          Somewhere in there are thoughts of that girl I like, or used to like, but never am where I’d like to be to date, or the one online who I’d like to talk to but won’t respond. Somewhere in there is a hope and a prayer of something resembling normalcy.

          When I lay down at night, all I feel is alone, and because I have nobody except myself and God, that’s all there is. If you don’t feel the lack of a mate any other time, I can guarantee you feel it when you lay down alone every night. So used to being alone that you don’t even really comprehend what it is not to be alone, even though you hope for it.

          I direct my thoughts to contemplative prayer, or just prayer in general, about being healed from the misery and loneliness, and someday being in some sort of loving relationship with a woman. I don’t know what that will look like, because I’m so far from “normal” that expecting a “normal” relationship is unreasonable at best.

          the woman in the photo is real, but the profile is a character someone made up. It may have been made by the woman in the photo, or by someone else, but it isn’t real.

      2. 31.2.2
        Adam

        As a person who used to be an older, compared to my peers, kiss-less virgin, I understand where you are coming from, but there comes a point where we all need to just accept the way women are and get over this.

        Once we accept women as they are, we know what behavior we need to adopt in order to attract women. Women are not turned on by nice guys. Nice guys finish last. Being nice and respectful doesn’t attract women. Religious men are mostly unattractive. Men who are close to their mothers are not sexy. Women like men who have slept with tons of other women. The more sex partners a man has had (within reason) the more attractive he is to other women. Women like guys who are already in relationships. We need to accept these facts. Don’t be angry at women for being this way. This is just the way they are. It is just like a woman being angry at men for liking women like Kim Kardashian or Pamela Anderson and not being attracted to obese 400 pound women. We are attracted to who we are attracted to. Women are attracted to who they are attracted to. There is nothing to be angry about. This is just the way men are. Women should accept this, just like men need to accept what attracts women.

        I have a lot of respect for Evan, and I admire what he has built in terms of this blog and his business, but with all due respect, men like him, who have dated hundreds of women, have absolutely no idea what it is like to deeply struggle with attracting women. To be an older kiss-less virgin. No clue. This can lead to misconceptions and miscommunication on both sides. It is essentially a communications breakdown. On that note, I don’t think that you are going to be a mass murderer, but I do think you are a deeply frustrated person, which I can understand. Therapists and psychiatrists are a complete waste of time, when it comes to these things, because what are they going to tell you that you don’t already know — nothing. So why waste your time and money.

        What I would do if I were you, is go to meetup.com and find some groups devoted to picking up women. I would join a few of these groups. In addition to studying this blog, I would also study pickup artists like Bobby Rio and Alan Roger Currie. Start approaching women, at least one or two every day to start and build up from there to the point where you are approaching several a day. As to the older male virgin thing, it is a mistake to ever mention this to a woman even if asked directly. This is ALWAYS a MISTAKE. ALWAYS. You get it? All women, including “good” Christian women are DEEPLY disgusted by virgins. ALL women. They are also turned off by guys who lost their virginity late in life. They all want the “stud” who has slept with tons of women, no matter WHAT THEY SAY. This is always the case. Women consider virgins and guys who are not virgins, but lost their virginity later in life super unattractive, so you need to lie about this if asked. No woman will EVER understand your situation, so letting her know at any point is a complete waste of time. Letting her know will cause her to leave. So unless you want her to leave and you want to become a social pariah, don’t tell.

        I had my first kiss and later lost my virginity after I started studying pickup. Instead of being honest and open, like I had been before, I LIED and DECEIVED the girl, and my problem was solved. What is funny about the whole scenario, besides the fact she never found out the truth, is one time, we were talking about sexual histories. I gave her a long imaginary sexual history that included dozens of partners. She went over her sexual history. She had NO idea at all that I lied to her. She never found out and she never noticed anything out of the ordinary when I kissed her, my first kiss or when we slept together for the first time and I lost my virginity to her. And she will never know.

        So all is not lost. Study pickup. Lie about your sexual history, exhibit bad boy traits, attract women. Problem solved.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          I feel sorry for you but I don’t like letting bad ideas stand uncorrected.

          “Nice guys finish last. Being nice and respectful doesn’t attract women. Religious men are mostly unattractive. Men who are close to their mothers are not sexy.”

          No. I’m nice. I’m respectful. I’m not religious but a lot of my women clients want religious men. Almost ALL women want men who are close with their mothers and like women. You are making a grievous error in believing these things. You are also conflating two things, which is the source of all of your confusion. In other words, don’t tell me I don’t understand guys like you. I do. You don’t understand guys like ME.

          I am a nice guy with BALLS. You are a nice guy without balls. You are the guy who is so insecure around women that you don’t carry yourself with confidence, you lose your cool, you bend over backwards to please her even when it doesn’t make you happy, etc. The reason she’s not attracted to you, therefore, is that you have no balls, no spine, no opinions. You figure you can “nice” your way into her heart.

          MY point is that while assholes (such as the man you want to become) do better with women than YOU do, they DON’T do as well with women as I did. Because women DO want a man who is nice, respectful, a good listener, a man who calls and pays and prioritizes her. She just has to RESPECT him to be attracted to him. You shouldn’t be reading PUA books, Adam. You should pick up a copy of Dr. Robert Glover’s “No More Mr. Nice Guy” to cure you of your pathology.

          You’ve created a black and white world where women clamor for studs who treat them like shit. That’s a teenager’s world view. You think success comes from lying and studying pickup. In fact, the only women who put up with PUAs are women with low self esteem because women with HIGH self esteem want a man to be consistent and kind. So I’m glad you’re finally getting laid. Just know that when PUA’s mature, they turn into men like me. I’m telling you to skip a step and just act with confidence and personal power… and you’ll never have to lie or be a bad boy again.

        2. SparklingEmerald

          Adam – I’m sorry you were a kissless virgin for so long and understand your frustration but . . .

          I belong to meet up. I found some local “pick up” artist meet ups and bookmarked it. Then when I was doing OLD, if I found someone I was thinking of responding to, I would check that site for his pic. Not 100% foolproof, because not everyone puts a pic in their MU profile, or they put up a picture of a cartoon character or their goldfish. I never found a potential OLD date on a pick up site, but if I did, I would NOT go out to meet him, because I don’t want to play games.

          Also, I don’t ask or tell when it comes to past partners. I don’t think women WANT promiscuous men, but they are willing to overlook it if a man has many past sexual partners. Whereas more men will hypocritically bang as many women as they want, and then look for a virgin or an almost virgin to settle down with.

          My boyfriend is a good man. He is nice and respectful and I never held that against him. In fact, it is PRECISELY how he won my heart. He just wasn’t a no-balls nice guy, nor was he an arrogant PUA jerk in a purple fedora throwing his mother under the bus.

          I’m glad neither one of us gave up on BEING OUR BEST SELVES. If he decided to act like a cocky jerk or if I decided to be some snooty games playing “Rules Girl” we wouldn’t be together.

        3. Adam

          “No. I’m nice. I’m respectful. I’m not religious but a lot of my women clients want religious men. Almost ALL women want men who are close with their mothers and like women. You are making a grievous error in believing these things. You are also conflating two things, which is the source of all of your confusion. In other words, don’t tell me I don’t understand guys like you. I do. You don’t understand guys like ME.”

          Well Evan, I certainly respect your point of view and your experience. I’m sure you have run into women that are like the ones you described. You are right, while I can try to understand where you are coming from, we fundamentally come from different places and have different experiences. I love women, but I am realistic. I understand that women are just fundamentally deeply turned off by the guy I used to be years and years ago. I am not angry about this, I accept it, just like women need to accept that men aren’t attracted to obese women. The obese woman needs to lose weight and the “nice guy” needs to change himself.

          “I am a nice guy with BALLS. You are a nice guy without balls. You are the guy who is so insecure around women that you don’t carry yourself with confidence, you lose your cool, you bend over backwards to please her even when it doesn’t make you happy, etc. The reason she’s not attracted to you, therefore, is that you have no balls, no spine, no opinions. You figure you can “nice” your way into her heart.”

          You are confusing me with other guys you have spoken to. I was always a nice guy. I listened to my female friends. I took advice from my family and female friends who always told me what a great catch I would make and what a great guy I was.

          When I met my first serious girlfriend, I had just started studying PUA. One of the ideas that stuck with me from this study was pre-selection. I decided that, unlike the other girls I had dated before and who had dumped me rapidly when I was honest with them, I would apply this concept. Be the same person, but continually give the girl the idea I was popular with other women. This naturally involved deception since when I first met her, I was a kiss-less virgin. It worked spectacularly. I was hooked. We broke up years ago, but whenever I see her, I can see she is still attracted to me.

          “MY point is that while assholes (such as the man you want to become) do better with women than YOU do, they DON’T do as well with women as I did. Because women DO want a man who is nice, respectful, a good listener, a man who calls and pays and prioritizes her. She just has to RESPECT him to be attracted to him. You shouldn’t be reading PUA books, Adam. You should pick up a copy of Dr. Robert Glover’s “No More Mr. Nice Guy” to cure you of your pathology.”

          Wow, now I have a “pathology.” Well, you have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. While you don’t appear to be understand my experience, I try to understand and respect your point of view while disagreeing with it. I have never found being a beta orbiter to be successful. Never. Embodying the traits that you outline above has never led to a woman becoming attracted to me. Of course, if she is ALREADY attracted to me, that is a different story. If she is in a relationship with me and we are together, of course the traits you describe, embody those of a good boyfriend. But the traits you describe in my experience, aren’t the primary ones that create attraction.

          “You think success comes from lying and studying pickup. In fact, the only women who put up with PUAs are women with low self esteem because women with HIGH self esteem want a man to be consistent and kind. So I’m glad you’re finally getting laid. Just know that when PUA’s mature, they turn into men like me. I’m telling you to skip a step and just act with confidence and personal power… and you’ll never have to lie or be a bad boy again.”

          I have never advocated physically mistreating women. But certainly I do advocate giving women the idea you are a player, in other words, you are a man that is successful with other women. This is key in attraction since women are attracted to men that other women are attracted to. With women, preselection is key. You need to give them the idea that other women consider you attractive. If this is not the case yet, because you are a virgin or relatively inexperienced, you need to deceive them and give them this idea. Fake it until you make it. There is certainly bad ideas in pickup as there are bad ideas in all subjects. But I have found that my success greatly increased after I started studying it, so I remain an advocate for it. Not every coach of course. Some of them are full of sh**. But some of them have good information.

          What I find so funny, is women are always hiding things in their sexual history from men. Yet, when I advocate that men do the same, suddenly I am the bad guy. What I say is what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Learning to be a PUA and generate attraction is no different than a woman learning to dress and put on makeup in a way that makes her look far more attractive.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          And really, read No More Mr. Nice Guy. You’ll see that being a “beta orbiter” IS a pathology. Except the corrective is not to pretend to be a player or a jerk. It’s too stop putting women on a pedestal and start doing what you want. That doesn’t make you an asshole. It just makes you a normal, healthy man who doesn’t act like the 40-year-old virgin, despite his previous insecurities.

        5. starthrower68

          It would appear that Adam may be right in that the women HE wants maybe susceptible to PUA tactics. He probably has no interest in average girls who PUA’s wouldn’t give the time of day to.

        6. Adam

          SparklingEmerald

          “Adam – I’m sorry you were a kissless virgin for so long and understand your frustration but . . .”

          Thank you. I appreciate this. Even though it was many years ago, I appreciate your compassion.

          “I belong to meet up. I found some local “pick up” artist meet ups and bookmarked it. Then when I was doing OLD, if I found someone I was thinking of responding to, I would check that site for his pic. Not 100% foolproof, because not everyone puts a pic in their MU profile, or they put up a picture of a cartoon character or their goldfish. I never found a potential OLD date on a pick up site, but if I did, I would NOT go out to meet him, because I don’t want to play games.”

          That is why I don’t put a profile picture on meetup. Too much trouble and too much judgement.

          “Also, I don’t ask or tell when it comes to past partners. I don’t think women WANT promiscuous men, but they are willing to overlook it if a man has many past sexual partners. Whereas more men will hypocritically bang as many women as they want, and then look for a virgin or an almost virgin to settle down with.”

          You make a great point. The situations are essentially reversed. It is good that you don’t ask about previous partners, but my experience has been that most women do. What I describe, being an older male virgin or having lost your virginity late is, the equivalent, in terms of attractiveness, to a woman who has slept with several hundred men. They are similar in terms of effect on the opposite sex. Men, don’t want to settle down and get married to women who are grossly promiscuous. Women get turned off by guys who are virgins or have only had a few partners. The reactions are similar even though both situations are opposite.

          The problem with society, is society teaches these guys that they should be proud to be virgins and that one day a woman will accept this. Nothing could be further from the truth. This will never happen. No woman will ever accept these guys if they are honest. Pickup taught me this, and it was a key piece of information that helped me turn my life around. I’m happy about that.

          “My boyfriend is a good man. He is nice and respectful and I never held that against him. In fact, it is PRECISELY how he won my heart. He just wasn’t a no-balls nice guy, nor was he an arrogant PUA jerk in a purple fedora throwing his mother under the bus.”

          That’s nice. Too bad more women are not like you. I don’t have a purple fedora hat, but I do appreciate the tips from men like Bobby Rio and Alan Roger Currie. I do appreciate that. Perhaps if I would have met a woman like you I would have never come to pickup. But I never did, and that past is the past. I only came to pickup after the advice of my female friends and all my relatives failed me. I love them dearly, but I took their advice and the advice of Hollywood and became a miserable failure.

          “I’m glad neither one of us gave up on BEING OUR BEST SELVES. If he decided to act like a cocky jerk or if I decided to be some snooty games playing “Rules Girl” we wouldn’t be together.”

          Well, OK, whatever works for you, works for you. Most guys who enter into PUA are not smooth players. Sure, some of them want to sleep with hundreds of girls. But most of the other guys I have met, are like me. They tried everything in an attempt to attract women and get girlfriends. But they have failed, failed and failed some more. Finally, they have come to the pickup community, after longer periods, in my case several years, of following bad advice and failing.

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          You’re getting good advice here. You’re just not listening. The key to doing well with women is confidence. Not being a jerk. Not lying. Not being unavailable. Not negging. Just being a guy with opinions, the ability to make decisions, to approach life with vigor, and the willingness to carry yourself like you’re worthy of any woman on the planet. If PUA stuff allows you to fake it ’til you make it, great. But my point – and every woman who categorically denies that she likes asshole players – is that being a nice guy with balls is the holy grail. Women PUT up with assholes over nice guys, but drop assholes for nice guys with balls any day.

        8. Karmic Equation

          Adam,

          I’m really fond of the saying “You get what you pay for.” It applies to a lot of life where money is not actually involved.

          You can’t equate LYING with a woman putting on makeup. You’re eventually going to see her without makeup. And unless you eventually disclose about your non-existent past, she’s none the wiser. But that is neither her or there.

          If all you want is to get laid, then PUA tactics often work. My ex-bf who was a player, slept with over 200 women in his 20s. I know he wasn’t lying. He was pursued by and picked up women left and right when I first met him. What attracted me to him wasn’t that he had slept with over 200 women (I didn’t know this until we convo’d about it 6 months or so after we became bf/gf). What attracted me to him was his confidence, particularly his confidence around women. He knew how to handle them. I think “handling women” is like herding cats. Pretty impossible for most men, but the fact that he knew how to do it was something I admired.

          Despite knowing that he was a player (and onboard with the “Once a player, always a player” adage) — I still dated him, for almost a year. But I dated him knowing there was an expiration date to our relationship. He was a bartender at a local joint. And after I broke up with him, eventually we became friends again. One of the nicest things he ever said to me after we re-friended each other was “I worked for over three years at that bar and never met a good woman until I met you.” He wasn’t giving a line. He was sincere.

          The point of that story is that MOST good women wouldn’t give a player the time of day. But he was an authentic player, not a make-believe one. And he was nice to his mother. He played board games with her every Saturday afternoon when we were dating. I thought that was sweet. He even made a funny meme about her for Thanksgiving that got a lot of his family and FB friends laughing. He was an authentic guy. He had as many enemies as friends.

          Don’t get me wrong, he lied about a whole lot of things, up to even denying he was a player (when I called him on it after we hooked up the first time). When we first met, he said that he worked two jobs and didn’t have a girlfriend. The 2nd part of which was important, because if he didn’t say that, I would never have hooked up with him at all. But a few things that he said over the course of the year we were together made me realize that he was dating someone else when we first hooked up. Perhaps he didn’t consider her his gf, but I’m pretty sure she must have considered him her bf, since he was driving one of her cars O_o

          Anyway, I guess this is the long way of saying that women of good character don’t date men with gfs or wives. Women who find that attractive are the kind that will lie (by omission) about being, what did you call it, a “cum train”?

          What a hypocrite you are. She slept with the number of partners that you can only fantasize about sleeping with. Why was your heart broken? Did she treat you like crap? It doesn’t sound like she did. You just didn’t like her past, which she was entitled to before she met you and had nothing to do with you. If you said she cheated on you with even one man after becoming your girlfriend, I would have more compassion for you. But before she met you, she could have slept with thousands and it would have been none of your business.

          I believe in Karma, that whatever goes around, comes around. Couple that with my belief about “You get what you pay for”, you’re not going to ever be happy, Adam.

          It’s better to be good and do good. And pay the price for that, than to lie to get what you want. Especially for something as cheap as easy sex with women who are attracted to you because of your lies. Ultimately, the price that comes due from your lying is going to be far higher than you ever expected to pay.

          Be the good guy that you are, Adam. Pretty p*ssies are not worth your soul.

        9. JennLee

          @Adam

          Two words.

          Tim Tebow.

          You can make as many excuses as you want to as to why he was so popular with women, but they will fail.

          He was a successful college football player? There were many successful players, and many were known to be bad boys, like you want to be. So why didn’t women flock to meet them like they did with Tim Tebow? There were even nice guys, and religious guys, but they did not have women lining up for a mile, just to get to meet him, and have a picture taken with him.

          I’ll help you out. He is honest. He is confident. He is unabashedly Christian, and a professed virgin. And, he is a totally sweet guy. So, according to you, women should loathe him. According to you, it is the many bad boys who should have had women lining up around the block to meet them. Even after his pro career failed, Tim is still very popular with women. They don’t just want to meet him. They dream of marrying him. They don’t dream of marrying the bad boys. Not like they do with Tim Tebow. They see the bad boy as a meal ticket. They see Tim Tebow as their Prince Charming.

        10. SparklingEmerald

          Adam said “What I find so funny, is women are always hiding things in their sexual history from men. Yet, when I advocate that men do the same, suddenly I am the bad guy.”

          You admit that you turned on a woman you were involved because of her past sexual history. So men are the problem in that equation. They study PUA, they encourage other men to study it, they teach men to bang every woman they can, then they get angry at women for being “sluts” when THEY are the ones that “slutted” up the female population with their deceit, manipulation and lies. HYPOCRITS. EMK doesn’t advocate that women lie about their sexual past, just that they don’t disclose. Same advice goes for men. My second husband wasn’t a virgin, but pretty darn close to it. He didn’t sleep with women unless he would consider MARRYING them. (OK, maybe except for his first girl, which was a set up by his buddies who felt it was their duty to relieve him of his virginity) I didn’t hold his relatively inexperienced past against him. I didn’t even think to hold it against him. I was EXTREMELY attracted to him (and for the record the divorce was HIS idea, not mine, so did give me that crap that I dumped 25 years later because of his sexual inexperience)

          The other hypocrisy about PUA, is they advocate banging all the American women, thus turning them into “sluts” in their own eyes, then going to a foreign country and finding a (supposedly) pure or demi-pure woman to marry. Not only is that BS, but it’s very unpatriotic. It’s bad enough that so many jobs are being outsourced to foreign countries, but now wives are being imported in from abroad, so a bunch of sexual spoiled brats can have their cake and eat it to ? (Act like a man-whore in his own country, than import a virgin or near virgin from a foreign country) Maybe men should go to other countries and sow their wild oats, then come home and find an American woman who is “pure” enough for him. At least he wouldn’t be betraying his own country.

          Adam said”
          “What I say is what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Learning to be a PUA and generate attraction is no different than a woman learning to dress and put on makeup in a way that makes her look far more attractive.”

          Oh good grief, this meme that women who wear make up are liars, so they deserve shabby treatment has been going around the internet for awhile. If we didn’t dress nice, wear makeup, etc. men would complain that we “let ourselves go”. When we do, we are liars who deserve to be played. Just another “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation, created by mysogynists and the PUA community.

          Seriously, when you see a woman with turquoise eyelids do you NOT know that is make up ? You do realize that our sweat isn’t naturally floral scented don’t you ? And that our legs and underarms aren’t naturally hairless, you realize that to don’t you ? Or have we been so successful at “lying” about our appearance, you really think we are like that naturally ?

          When girly magazines start showing, unwaxed, un-airbrushed, no make up, truly naked women, then maybe you can justify downright lies and deceit amoung men. But that make up and grooming that women do, is what most men DEMAND of women. So don’t use that as an excuse to be liars.

          Look Adam: I understand being a beta-orbiting nice guy didn’t serve you well in the past, and it is good that you looked for ways to change. But I suspect that you are out for revenge against women as payback for your lonely past. You claim that you wanted to marry and have a family, you claim now that being a lying asshole is causing women to fall all over you. But yet, you still aren’t married. You are still on a vengeful rampage against women. If it’s a REAL relationship you want (and I don’t think you do) then try dropping the asshole routine and take EMKs advice. But I suspect you no longer want a real relationship. You just want revenge against women because of your lonely past.

          You aren’t the first man to come to this board looking for revenge against women. And you probably won’t be the last.

        11. starthrower68

          The thread “Men look for sex and find love; women look for love and find sex” is full of justification for men not being completely up front about what they’re looking for because they want to get laid. Am I suggesting all men change? No. What I am suggesting is if men are going to insist on having g it both ways, that’s fine, but then don’t turn around and get mad at women because there are consequences to getting what you wanted. The culture believes that casual sex is a good thing, but then gets indignant when there are consequences. Sparkling Emeral is spot on.

        12. Adam

          JennLee: Tim Tebow is a rich, famous athlete which trumps everything. Tim Tebow is the EXCEPTION rather than the rule. Besides my own experiences I have spoken to countless other guys who were / are in the same situation. There are exceptions to every rule, but my statement stands for 98% of the guys in this situation. For example, one of my pretty female friends is totally OK with male virgins who are into study and aren’t smooth with women. I am not saying that one for one, every woman is disgusted with these men. The problem is, she is one of 100. That is the problem. For example, there are some rich celebrities that, while they have the choice of any and all beautiful women, are into obese women and end up marrying obese women. But just because some obese women “hit the lottery” and marry a wealthy famous guy, doesn’t mean that the majority of men are attracted to obese women — they are not.

          SparklingEmerald: I am not looking for revenge against women in the least. I love women. I am not angry like Wade, as you saw from my earlier comment, I actually encouraged him to calm down. I don’t subscribe to EVERY pickup artist out there. I suggest you look into the two names I mentioned, Bobby Rio and Alan Roger Currie. There ARE various schools of pickup, not all of them involve negs, revenge, hating women, wearing purple hats or calling women “sluts.” I don’t resent women, I accept them as they are, and as I said before, men need to adjust their behavior so they are more attractive to them. That is all. If anything, someone like Alan Roger Currie, a famous seduction coach, is helping women, since he is encouraging men to stop playing stupid games and instead be upfront and honest with what kind of relationships they really want and how they feel. In other words, if a man just wants a woman as a casual hookup partner, he encourages men to be completely honest and straightforward about this fact and not to lie about this. He calls this tactful honesty being “mode one.” Bobby Rio is the king of flirting, social game and making yourself into the playful, teasing (in a good way) cool, guy that every woman wants. All pickup artists are not assholes, some are, some aren’t. But you can say that they all, advocate not being the “nice guy” and making yourself into the kind of man that women want. And THAT I definitely advocate and support.

          I consider an inexperienced guy lying about his sexual past, necessary. It is a necessary lie. It is the same thing with giving women the idea that other women think you are attractive. It is a necessary lie if this is not already the case. Fake it until you make it. Outside of that, you should be confident and genuine to a degree. You need to adjust your behavior so you are the kind of dominant, alpha, attractive guy women want. You can’t be a pushover. At first this will be artificial, but as you practice it will become more and more natural. But you absolutely can’t forget those two things. I am not angry or resentful that women are attracted to men who have slept with many other women or at the very least, tons of other women are attracted to, it would be illogical to be so. It is just the way things are. Just like it would be irrational for a woman to be angry that men think models like Cindy Crawford are attractive. It is just the way we are programmed. Nobody should be angry or resentful about these things. Knowing these things are the case, in the case of men, we just need to adopt to this fact. It is like women know that men don’t like obese women. So if a woman is obese, she needs to lose the weight. It is the same thing with a man who is not attractive to women. He needs to learn the necessary behaviors and presentation so he attracts women. Attracting women is a skill like any other skill, like let’s say, for example, being a chef and being able to cook an incredible meal. From the point of view of a person dining at a fine restaurant, someone consuming a delicious meal. Everything is perfect. Someone might think — wow, this chef is talented. He must have been born this way. Perhaps, but more likely, he studied and practiced, practiced and practiced some more. He made mistakes and learned along the way. THEN he was perfect.

          As to my ex, it would be one thing if she had that history and sincerely repented her past actions. One of my close female friends, was involved in similar actions when she was young, but after several years of random hookups and sleeping with gang members, she sincerely repented and ceased this behavior. She got involved in Church and turned away from her previous life. She ended up meeting a decent guy and getting married. I love her (as a friend) and I don’t judge her for her mistakes in the past, we all make mistakes. But I am going to judge someone with that kind of history, who doesn’t repent, in fact continues to engage in this kind of behavior and doesn’t treat me with respect. I don’t see the mother of my child being someone who thinks it is completely OK to sleep with random guys all the time.

          At the end of the day, for every response to this article saying how inexperienced guys / male virgins are OK, there are tons of articles on how women are disgusted and repealed by these things. Which is again, totally OK. Men need to accept that women finds these things repulsive, just like men find smelly, grossly overweight women repulsive.

        13. Adam

          starthrower68: Good point. Alan Roger Currie makes a similar point. He advocates that men be upfront and honest about what their intentions are which is good advice.

          Don’t get me wrong. I don’t believe in telling a woman that I want to marry her and have five kids with her if this is not my plan. But as I have said time and time before, there are definitely certain things about yourself, if you are guy struggling with this area, that you need to hide from women. Sexual history is one of those things. Look, I can talk all day about this and debate it until the end of the time, but if a woman has to choose between the “nice guy virgin” and the confident, jock who has slept with many women, the man all her friends have crushes on, the jock is going to win almost every single time. I am saying adopt the successful traits of the jock. Hide your sexual history, give women the idea that you are just as exciting and attractive as this man. By all means do NOT “be yourself.” Obviously being who you are, a depressed, anxiety ridden virgin is not attractive to women. So you got to fake the attractive traits until they are actually part of you. Once you are successful with women, there is nothing wrong with “being yourself.”

        14. starthrower68

          I don’t get you young people.

        15. JennLee

          @Adam

          “Tim Tebow is a rich, famous athlete which trumps everything.”

          Wrong. There are many bad boys who were rich, famous athletes who did not get the same attention that Tim Tebow received from women. There are girls who enrolled at UF because they dreamed of marrying him. Women stood in very long lines just to get a picture with him.

          He received this attention because he was a rich, famous athlete who was also a very honest, person who wasn’t afraid to admit that he was a virgin. He was the exact opposite of what you say works.

  2. 32
    Tatiayna

    I would suspect 20% is closer to the truth, than 30%.  And I wouldn’t call that online dating site, success, per se. As meeting online is an inevitable part of life.  Through countless venues, other than online dating sites.. Which no doubt factor into those statistics..
    Online dating would far more of a success. If men emailed women they actually had some common ground with.. Unfortunately, most don’t.
     
     

    1. 32.1
      Wade Smith

      It’d also be a lot more success if women actually put what they really want in their profile, instead of lying and playing games with people’s heads, which they accuse guys of doing.

      Hey, guess what? I don’t know what you like, unless you say so.

      About half the women online get offended if you compliment them, and the other half get offended if you don’t.

      That’s not “women”. That’s a baby, especially if she doesn’t have the decency to write that sort of thing in her profile.

      Yet they’re like that about EVERYTHING.

      I’m trying to talk to some woman online, and there may be several things I really just don’t like about her, but I’m like, “Okay, it’s cool with me, but It’s probably not cool with her, but I can certainly try to at least converse with somebody.”

      You know, “little” stuff like smoking, or weird tatoos, or she wrote that she likes to get wasted sometimes, and I’m like, “I sort of don’t like any of that stuff, but I actually did like most of the rest of your profile,” So I write her anyway, because it’s not like my options are increasing.

      Look, my profile is like this, Typical right side, selection box stuff:

      5’9″
      A few extra pounds (190lbs now)
      Doesn’t smoke
      Doesn’t drink
      Doesn’t gamble
      Doesn’t sleep around
      Doesn’t lie or steal or do drugs.

      Background/history:
      I talk about life experiences or whatever I feel like the day I write it, and I may change it several times over the next few days or weeks.

      Interests:
      Let’s face it, I’m a nerd. I play Starcraft. I watch Star Trek. I’m re-watching “Seven Days” from the 1990’s. I have an I.Q. of 145. I’ve read the entire Bible several times and 66 Bible commentary volumes, and a couple hundred novels, science books, encyclopedias, etc. So what I write in here can be 10 pages long if I want it to be, and that’d be the tip of the iceberg….

      YOU won’t read it, and YOU won’t respond.

      And most of you will be interested in next to nothing of it, and I know that. There are a few exceptions. I ran into one woman the other night, and was shocked by her profile. I tried writing her, because her profile was like the female reciprocal of mine, and the woman won’t respond. they say not to write more than once or twice to a woman, so I gave up after two tries. Maybe I’ll let it alone for a month or two and try again, or maybe I’ll come to my senses and realize the woman doesn’t actually want a guy with the same interests as her, she was just writing a profile.

      I don’t just write anybody.

      I don’t write any woman I couldn’t conceive of myself marrying, at least at that point based on what was known about her from her profile. If there is some red flag that says I’d not marry her based on that knowledge, I do not message her.

      I don’t write any woman unless I feel some genuine ability to LOVE her. Period.

      What do I get out of it?

      Nothing.

      You can write me back and call me a lying son of a bitch if you want to, and You will have written more than any 10 women combined from OkCupid and Datehookup and Zoosk, Match, Christian singles, yahoo, and Eharmony COMBINED.

      Got it yet?

      You women really do not want what you claim you want, and you hold men to unfair and logistically, humanly impossible standards.

      Personally, I find it completely insulting and dehumanizing.

      1. 32.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Sorry, Wade. Don’t blame women because you have no game. No one is saying you’re a bad guy. But complaining that there’s something wrong with women because they don’t appreciate you is ass-backwards. Go on Gk2Gk.com. Buy http://www.findingtheoneonline.com (it’s for men, too). Use http://www.e-cyrano.com. Just stop complaining that women are wrong for not wanting you. Either find nerdy women who appreciate nice dorks who don’t know how to flirt, or learn how to be more successful with women. Those are your choices.

  3. 33
    Ren

    Guys were full-on spamming my inbox with multiple messages before I could reply to even one asking why I wasn’t responding and what was wrong. Guys would become hostile when I told them I wasn’t interested in NSA sex, or guys that had started normal and nice quickly turned the conversation into something explicitly sexual in nature. Seemingly nice dudes in quite esteemed careers asking to hook up in 24 hours and sending them naked pics of myself despite multiple times telling them that I didn’t want to.”

    All of this right here is why, as a single woman, I no longer date online.  
    In the beginning when I first started (this was before online dating became popular and the norm), I was able meet  guys, go out on dates, and had few relationships.  As the years progressed and I continued to try to meet men online, the quality of men has gotten worse and worse. It eventually got to a point that either men were just viewing my profile but not contacting me (whenever I’ve contacted men I’ve never gotten a response. Not ever), or the ones who did were only looking for NSA sex. It is so true that men online become belligerent when you don’t comply with their inappropriate requests, or if you don’t give them information you don’t feel comfortable sharing.

    A few years ago I finally came to the conclusion that online dating was a waste of time. Evan, I know you are a huge proponent of online dating, but I just can’t do it anymore. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.  No matter how many times I’ve tried online dating, the results have been the same–men not looking to date but only have sex.  Writing a great ad doesn’t matter when men skip over what you write and only respond to you based on your picture. And we women can tell when a man hasn’t taken the time to read our ads. 

    If I can’t meet a man organically in person, I don’t want to be bothered.  

    1. 33.1
      Traveller

      I have to agree with Ren. For perhaps different reasons.

      In my experience, the success rate in online dating for average-looking men is so low that it’s simply not worth the effort. You can spend 100 hours online and have one half-baked conversation to show for it. The same amount of time spent in nearly any real-life venue would probably have yielded 2 or 3 real dates.

      Online dating is a victim of its own success. It has become so overrun with people that only the highly attractive are able to stand out and have any success. And of course, those are precisely the people that would have the greatest success in any venue, online or otherwise.

      So for most, it’s not worth the time. And because of the constant attrition of good men (and women) the online sites are increasingly crowded with the ‘unacceptables’.

      Or at least that’s the impression i’ve gotten, after spending nearly five years at it.

    2. 33.2
      N

      I met my current beau online (OKC). I had just broken up with a boyfriend and was held hostage in my house for a week with a broken leg from a sporting accident. Without a boyfriend and unable to go to work for a week I decided to join OK Cupid.

      My expectation to meet someone let alone meet a potential boyfriend was ZERO to none. I posted 3 current photos, did some of the Q&As (I want to be specific I will only date a man who is within my age range 5 years give or take, non-smoker, non-drinker, athletic, educated, professional, over 5’10” and within 5 miles from where I live). I had no idea what to write on my profile so I wrote –Three words– Health.And.Fitness. with an intention to write something more at a later time. Within the next 24 hours I exchanged emails and met a man who is now my boyfriend for the past 9 months. He fits the specs and more.

      Albeit my time in online dating site was very short-lived, I remember it being fun and exciting! Utilize it in conjunction with other social activities i.e. sporting events, concerts, meet ups, yoga and meditation classes, etc. Have an open mind and don’t take it too serious. My yogi master always says– Don’t take life too cereal Cap’n Crunch! So corny but it never fails to make me laugh :))
      Nic~

  4. 34
    debbie

    Someone used that gorgeous guy’s pics with the baby blue shirt, blue jeans and curly black hair and scammed me.  There is one pic at the beginning of this blog.  His user name was JR Michaelson on WealthyMatch. Beware!!

    1. 34.1
      Karmic Equation

      How did you get scammed? I’m curious. You didn’t send money, did you? That is just nuts. I don’t even send money to friends or family. Whyever would you send money to a total stranger?

    2. 34.2
      Wade

      Hey,

      There is a data mining and money scam on all dating networks. In fact, I’m convinced Datehookup actively encourages scamming people, and the administrators may even be in on the scamming.

      Pretty photograph, just convincing enough, a half decent, just interesting enough profile. Wow. Let’s message her.

      Couple hours later:
      Check inbox, “Hey, a response! Let’s see what we got here.”

      Spends a few hours (or sometimes a day) exchangine texts with some bitch who claims to be in New Orlearns, but is really in Pennsylvannia, on a “business trip”, and after all this she “agrees” to meet for a date since she’ll be “back in NOLA” on such and such a day. So then when the day comes, she asks for some ridiculous amount of money to help get back home.

      It’s a human being who sits on the other side of the computer and spends her entire day talking to guys, trying to steal any information she can from you, or trying to convince you to buy airline tickets or send money.

      She’s really good at setting up “double pronged” attacks too: Make a profile, wait for the sucker (me or some other guy) to fall for it, etc. While you’re talking to her, you suddenly get a message from another person…who’s profile you probably visited, but didn’t respond to…get ready, they’re both in on it.

      Its the same person, the FBI knows about her, and can’t catch her anyway, and she runs that gimmick every day. 

      Yes, it happens to guys.

      Yes, it happens often.

      I get many, many more con-artist responses than real dating related responses. Probably 10 to 1 or worse. 

  5. 35
    Karmic Equation

    Maybe it’s because I’m Asian. While I get a few inappropriate messages, most are ok, and are more along the “You’re hot” short msgs. When I bother to send a thanks-but-no-thanks message, most guys are very polite, and reply “Thanks for your honest reply. Good luck to you too!”
     
    Once or twice I got blasted. But one time was because the guy was trying too hard and he seemed nice so I tried to tell him he shouldn’t try so hard to impress with his message (he wrote an essay, and it seemed cut & paste). He didn’t appreciate my advice and called me names. Lesson learned. After that, no more unsolicited advice or I don’t bother responding.

  6. 36
    starthrower68

    I just had an interesting e-mail exchange with a fellow who was upset because women block him when he turns the conversation sexual. He says we’re frigid.  I tried to conduct an exercise in empathy with him and explain to him, kindly and politely, why a woman might take umbrage.  His response was that he thought a woman would feel worse about not being noticed at all than being sexually objectified.  I really didn’t know where to go with that and just decided to let it alone and move on.

    1. 36.1
      Karl S

      He’s very naive if he thinks it’s a good idea to turn the conversation sexual at any point. Even if a meeting does result in a hook-up, you only get there by building a rapport and keeping everything strictly polite and G-rated until you get a read on the other person and what the vibe is between you face to face. I’ve only ever had one online conversation that got sexual and that was because she was much older than me, knew exactly what she was after and didn’t want to waste time.

    2. 36.2
      JennLee

      I agree with Karl. It is very naive, but it seems there are no shortage of naive men in this regard. Also, I had a friend who confided to me that there is some misguided PUA stuff out there that tells men to quickly make things sexual or they risk being put in the friend zone. There may be some truth to that but I would say two things in response. First, most men are clumsy at it. Second, making a flirty sexual innuendo and leaving it at that is sufficient, but most men go way way too far. I could also add a third point in that there are also men who are only interested in the sexual stuff and nothing else. So it is better for men to separate themselves from those types by not engaging in sexual talk at all. It is better to not say anything sexual than to say something clumsy.

      1. 36.2.1
        Traveller

        I think that a HUGE proportion of the people online are there precisely because they have few or no social skills. That certainly seems to be the case with the majority of the women I encounter and I can’t imagine it’s any better with the guys.

  7. 37
    GL

    I keep making jokes about running a prostitution ring on OK Cupid. The women who understand what I mean laugh, the ones who don’t understand react…we’ll not enthusiastically. LOL! It is BAD on the free sites, although there are some gents. Guys…you are not going to impress many women with your advances.  I shut my profile down after a ‘last straw,’ when ANOTHER poor sap emailed me saying he just got out of a relationship and wants a FWB. Gimme a break! I’m going to try a paid site down the road, I need a break!

  8. 38
    Misty Gilbert

    I began dating/online dating for the first time ever, April 2014.  Two weeks into it, I had 65 guys messaging me.  Overwhelming??? Absolutely!!!  To the point I wanted to quit?  More than.  But I didn’t. I set goals and expectations on myself to be different a create an experience that they would remember. I messaged every guy back, expressed to them a nice compliment or appreciation for what they wrote, even if it wasn’t one I wanted to proceed with, there is no reason to treat them ugly, rude, disrespectful, or harsh.  Yes, I have my criteria and deal breakers and I don’t plan to deviate from them, but you can still be sweet about it.  Be generous.  Be loving.  Be kind.  Everyone is in this to find their soul mate and it isn’t easy for either party.  Dating gets a bad rap because people don’t treat each other as they want to be treated.  Date intentionally.  Be open, authentic and real.  Don’t play games and you won’t have people playing games with you.  Communicate.  Be reasonable.  Trust that God will bring you the person you need in your life!

    1. 38.1
      Traveller

      Wow! You’re a gem, Misty! Good for you. And on behalf of the men, thank you for being so nice.

  9. 39
    Elizabeth

    I’m 61 and get the lot: dick photos, men wanting me to be a mother to their children (not interested), men wanting to be married (not interested), men wanting to emigrate and live with me (said in the opening email. Again, not interested), 20 and 30 year olds looking for a shag (what?!), men looking at my photos and not my profile, undereducated barely literate men (I have a doctorate and prefer to be able to converse with like minded people), men from across the ocean (my profile on okcupid states “nearby”), men wanting me to support them, and so on. It’s depressing and tedious. My profile says exactly what I’m after, yet few bother reading it. When I send  a short note say, “Thanks, but no thanks,” some will get nasty. Some will say to a comment such as “I’m only interested in considering local men,” that they are willing to migrate, and what’s the weather like in Australia. Gee wizzz. Words fail me.

  10. 40
    Christi

    I’ve been hit on several times by men far older than me, the most recent being in his early 50s.  I might mention that I’m 18.
    It’s absolutely disgusting and irritating and constantly I’m left wondering why I only seem to attract men who are far older than me and only have an interest in having relations with a young girl who isn’t even out of her parents’ house yet.  What I wouldn’t give to attract one nice guy who is around my age! 

  11. 41
    JustB

    I’m in my early 30’s, and have been doing online dating on and off for about 5 years. I find that I tend to get a particular kind of avalanche: 1. The older guy (55+) that is looking to show wife #1 he’s still got it;  2. The foreign guy who’s looking for a green card (a friend says I have the “perfect passport”: American with visas to live in a couple different countries.) ; and 3. The foreign guy who interprets my covered-up photos to mean that I’m socially, politically, or otherwise conservative, and therefore perfect to bring home to mother.  I figure this is because my professional photos (best advice ever, Evan!) were taken outdoors in winter and the seasonally-appropriate dressing is being mistaken for a particular moral code.  

    On the “that’s interesting” side of things, I received a proposition from someone who was married and was looking for someone to surrogate their child and avoid the “high costs” of dedicated agencies. I’ve also heard from a few cross-dressers; someone who sent me a long..fanfic…involving me, him, 2 other people, and PVC clothing; and someone who claimed to be a vampire and was looking to start a coven. I’ve also received a couple of messages from diaper fetishists, looking for an “adult figure” to join them. 

    I think what helps to have a bit of a zen attitude. It is what it is. The long-distance guys get a “local only, thanks anyway”, the creeps get ignored, the truly weird get a “Wow. Interesting. Not into that, but thanks for saying hello.” If someone normal-ish comes along, I’ll go out on a date or 2 with them and see what comes of it. 

  12. 42
    Wade

    “What’s it like to be me, trying to get a positive response from a woman on any dating site.”

    This is a bit of a rant, but there is no strong language, except where used in a hypothetical context. It’s a “rant” because “advice” whether by man or woman absolutely never works for me, even if I follow it to the letter every time, or if I try to follow it as a “general rule” doesn’t matter, doesn’t work.

    My online dating woes:

    Man repeatedly tries free dating sites, such as OkCupid and Datehookup, etc, has repeatedly tried eharmony and match and others, and never gets a positive response from a woman.

    Man is a perfect gentleman, and doesn’t talk trash to women, and does pretty much everything correctly, automatically, by nature that the WOMEN say they want a man to do in those complaints they write on their facebook page or another blog.

    When noticing an interesting woman’s profile, man spends 30 minutes to an hour deciding what he likes best about her and how best to communicate with her, and tries to compose a coherent message to her; Trying not to sound like a complete stick in the mud, while I also trying not to sound like the guy she claims not to want who just wants to get down her pants.

    I never use profanity or say stupid crap to women like “hey you want to get laid” or whatever, okay maybe sometimes some sort of innuendo if she started it first in her profile.

    I respond to her profile. The type of photo she has, the substance of her profile. That is my nature. I work with whatever she gave me.

    After several years of this off and on, man has had 1 neutral first response and 2 positive first responses to contacts. Among those, the “neutral” as I defined it, is she bothered to reply to me to tell me she wasn’t interested. Hey, that’s better than I got out of 99.99% of women, so she gets thanked for that.

    For the 2 positive first and second responses to contacts, absolutely nothing leading to any meaningful conversation, flirting, or real contact (except in cases where it later turned out to be a con artist). One of the women got upset when it took me too long to load an extra photo, and cut contact. The other woman, after the third contact or so, got upset over some minor misjudgment on my part about dining behavior on a first date.

    That’s what my “online dating” experience has been. I can take the “dating I.Q.” test and get a perfect score, and did that BY MY NORMAL DECENT NATURE, and never once get a positive response from any woman on the internet.

    Man wonders what he is doing wrong, checks “what not to do” from Okcupid itself. Turns out women don’t want to be complimented, according to them, but accoring to other sources they do. Check a very large rant from a WOMAN on okcupid and datehookup, and her biggest complaints were against everything wrong that I NEVER do.

    I wrote her a multi-page response telling her I already did everything she claimed women wanted, and didn’t do the things she claimed women didn’t want, and it never worked.

    It doesn’tmatter what site you go on:
    Christian site (Hey, I’d actually prefer that, but they turn out to be the worst actually, because everyone is a judgmental hypocrite.)

    Okcupid: Love the site in principle. Never get any responses though.

    Datehookup: The forum is more interesting and mor einteractive than the actual dating messaging. The women never respond to text messages. Asking some of the women about certain things on the forum leads to conflicting ideas, because I’d rather go to the source on “how to get a woman to respond,” but then the “source” contradicts itself.

    Match and Eharmony: A girl once said she might like to go out, so I suggest coffee, as it’s the safe, decent thing to do. She says, “I don’t like coffee,” I try something else, normal “decent” first meeting/dating ideas, and she shoots that down and doesn’t respond afterwards. Maybe she wanted me to take her to a 4 star restaurant on a first meeting, I don’t know.

    Man gives up on the “decent” sites because never get responses from them anyway, and tries “dirtier” places, contrary to my own convictions, so use your imagination. No luck there either, unless I wanted a prostitute, which I don’t. I’m not accusing everyone in those places of being that either, I’m just saying that’s the way it is.

    Man spends tens, scores, hundreds of dollars to get a membership on another “decent” paid site. Man discovers that after having paid, he can’t contact non-paying members, and there aren’t any paying members nearby. Site refuses to refund the money.

    Man spends money on Zoosk and discovers it has no favorites system, and you can’t even keep track of who you have and haven’t messaged, and when, or even how to send a second “refresher” message to the same person, if you can even find their profile again among the useless search criteria they have.

    Man ends up reading a 10 page rant by a female dater about how all the guys mistreat her, etc, etc, and I’m like, “I’ve never once done any of those things to a woman…”

    And when I wrote about a 10 page response to her publicly about it, she didn’t answer, because she knows what she was telling guys to do doesn’t “work” either.

    She could get a message from me, and as soon spit in my face as date me, and 30 minutes later she’ll get a message from one of the creeps she claims she doesn’t want to hear from, and she’s sold on him.

    Seriously, “want to fuck” usually is not the first thing that comes to my mind anyway, but maybe that really is what they want a guy to write to them, even though they claim they don’t, because they DO NOT respond to what they claim they will respond: “romance” or “talking nice” or “just being friends”. Okay, what guy has ever gone on a dating site “just looking for friends” anyway?

    If I said that in a vacuum, I’d be a LIAR, like her, and then she actually would have some excuse to accuse me of gaming her. Besides, I’ve tried that one, and it doesn’t work anyway. In some cases, someone lives 5 to 10 miles away, you could easily meet for coffee and have a few laughs, etc, and if nothing comes of it, not much lost, but you don’t even get a response from them, and you know they got your message because they were online 10 minutes after you wrote it.

    Now on the other hand, “non-scientific” studies have been done as a joke by media and comedians which showed women automatically rated a guy 3 to 5 points higher based on his income being higher than expected (hidden information) compared to when she was first introduced to his profile.

    I guess it really is true what they say. Money talks, and bullshit walks.

    I’ll find someone right for me eventually, but in all likelihood, it actually won’t be by taking the “female dating guru’s” advice either, because she doesn’t want what she says she wants either, and she’s writing a 10 page rant about guys not knowing how to talk to her.

    Like I told her, most female profiles look like they were composed by first grader. They can’t spell five letter words. They say things like:

    “I like having fun. I’m down to Earth and live life to the fullest.” *If has child Insert here* “I have x kids, they are my world….looking for “experienced” man.” 

    Anybody else notice the contradiction here? She doesn’t want a player (rant page, search google for it,) but in her profile she says she…wants a player…but doesn’t want a player…

    Hey guess what? Keep treating the guy knocking on your door worse than you would a stray DOG and he certainly doesn’t learn anything useful about whatever in the heck it is you expect from him, so whatever you THINK you want as “experience” you contradict yourself and prevent yourself from having. Then you turn around and go with the very guy you LIED to the other guy about, and date him, and marry and divorce him 2 years later.

    You think guys lie to women?

    Join a dating site, you poor fool. Women lie at least twice as much as men, and they do it for the same or worse reasons.

    I can predict 80% of what her profile will say before I read it, because most of it falls in that vein:

    Read between the lines of her profile:

    “Seemingly decent Female dating site user ACTUALLY doesn’t know what she really wants, but sure has fun mocking or ignoring any guy who tries to contact her.”

    Count yourself blessed, guy, whoever you are, who may have actually had a few positive experiences on dating sites.

    They are supposed to be to help people meet, and they seem to cause more strife than good.

    Oh yeah, I’m a Christian, and the 3 positive responses I’ve ever gotten actually came from atheists and agnostics….or little “good” christians who lie about their religion after having read the okcupid study showing people respond more favorably to the term “atheist” than to any other religious affiliated term.One lie is as good as another, it seems, for a woman.

    I don’t want to come off as being “bitter,” but it really does start to sting when you get kicked in the teeth by literally every person you try to contact.

    Oh, by the way, No I don’t just message the prettiest or the most fashionable, or the fittest or whatever. I have weird and varied tastes. I could just as easily love a “Goth” as a “Legally Blonde” Reese Witherspoon type, or whatever, and I’ve made that clear in the past.

    What they are looking for is a lie though. A while back, I messaged this girl who had a profile which was screaming, “I’m what you really need/want.” So I waited, and I waited. Then a few weeks later I messaged her again, and I waited. I know she was online the whole time, but no response. Why? She doesn’t want what she claims she wants. She wants something I’ll never be no matter what, if I bent over backwards trying, and ripped my eyes out and laid them at her feet, so what’s the point of it?

    The closest match I’ve found on the entire internet in terms of personality and interests, and the woman refuses to even respond to me. 

    This post does not reflect typical message length. When I write to somebody on a dating site it is usually between 4 sentences and 4 paragraphs, depending on how much she wrote in her profile, and how much I find her interesting.

    anyway, I’ve said enough, and I’m sure most of it is already known by other guys like me. I don’t know what women’s responses will be, but hey, you’re welcome to roast me or agree with me. I’ll listen and learn, or maybe you’ll respond with stuff I’ve already found out doesn’t really work, either way I guess spending a few minutes or hours debating it here is better than a lot of other things I could be doing with my time. 

  13. 43
    Wade

    I’m a 33 year old christian virgin guy, and I’ve been rejected by every allegedly “good” woman I have ever attempted contact with, because they want either more money, or a “more experienced” guy, paradoxically. Claims she doesn’t want a player, but actually does want a player.

    Well, if it could help me love you any better, or help you love me better, than I could certainly wish I had fucked around some. I’m quite sorry to have disappointed you. I was raised in an ultra-conservative family, and I had severe social anxiety on top of that, and it pretty well screwed me over for the first ~20 years of life in terms of normal dating experiences, and I’ve spent the next third of my life trying to fix the damage.

    Sorry to disappoint though. I’m not “experienced” and I have to read the “how to” guide for stimulating a woman, because I’ve never done it myself, and you’ll obviously laugh your ass off because a significant percentage of 15 year olds have infinitely more dating and sexual experience than a 33 years old guy.

    So be it.

    Some of you did your share to help create me.

    Sorry to disappoint that I had a medical problem causing me to be impossibly shy, and pretty much no woman ever figured that out and you know, tried to make a first move or anything, because you mostly expect the guy to know everything and do everything perfectly.  Obviously you do, because if that wasn’t the case, somebody, somewhere, would have given me a chance by now.

    Anyway…Women ONLY seem to date guys who sleep around, and they say so in their profile on the one hand, but then lie to themselves about it and bitch and complain at the guy when they realize he…sleeps around…wtf…

    But they don’t even respond to the guy who obviously doesn’t do the things they claim they don’t want a guy to do either.

    If that’s how you supposedly “good” women want to be, then hey, if one of you actually wanted a decent guy, I’ve tried to be that all my life, but since you never so much as acknowledge a person exists, screw it.

    If you allegedly “good” women want ME to do what YOU do to guys, fine.
    I’ve had that in my mind for a long time now, not likely something any of you will be familiar with, but the story goes in the Bible that “God” told “Hosea” to go buy a prostitute named “Gomer” off the auction block down town, and marry her.Oh this has been on my mind for quite a few years now, because it came to my attention that none of the “good” ones wanted me anyway. I thought about it, and I feared to think about it, and then I thought about it some more and prayed about it, and the more I think about it the more “right” it seems.
    You “ladies” get what you want: Guys like me who tried to follow the “true love waits” lie, and ended up stuck somewhere in no-man’s land get to leave you alone, while you pursue the very players you claim you don’t want…and end up with broken, screwed up marriages 2 years later every time.

    Guys like me don’t get what I really want, but I just might get what I obviously need, since none of you want me.

    What I wanted was love. I don’t know what the hell everyone else wanted. They use the same word, but they actually hate one another.

    Hey, win win I guess….If you change the definition of win quite a bit anyway.

    Why?

    I write the pristine virgin (apparently) but she doesn’t reply.
    I write the single mother, and she doesn’t reply.
    I write the goth, and she doesn’t reply.
    I write to the bi-sexual girl, and she replies (sometimes,) but isn’t interested.
    I write to the “Christian” on Christian mingle/single or whatever other site, and they don’t reply.
    I write the atheist, they don’t reply. Actually, a few do. I’ve never gotten a reply from a “Christian” unless she was claiming to set me up with someone else, and then that person never responded. Go figure.

    Okay, and I don’t think of them like that while I’m writing, I’m just making the point that I give everyone a chance, and they don’t give me a chance. I don’t just write anyone, I write people I genuinely seem to like, and genuinely have some things in common with, and they don’t give a damn and don’t reply.

    So really, really sinking in that women in America most certainly hold men to a much higher standard than they hold themselves, and impossible standard really. I mean hell, if I’m not your “pure and honest guy” or whatever it is you TELL YOURSELF you’re looking for, then lady you aren’t going to find one.

    Problem number one is I’m too honest about it, but if you want “me” then you have to deal with it, because I don’t lie for a job, and I don’t lie for a date, and I won’t lie to save a marriage either.

    You don’t want that anyway. You want a  guy who sleeps around, but you tell yourself you don’t because you somehow think that makes you feel better. If he and I message you under otherwise similar circumstances, you’ll take him every time, you’ll ignore me and not even respond, and then you’ll blame that poor fool when he messes up again, even though he is in fact EXACTLY what you wanted the whole time. I’ve been doing this little circle jerk my entire adult life now, so I get it. Whatever you say you want, it’s probably a lie. Whatever you think you want, it’s probably a lie.

    Evidence exhibit A: The “White Knight” lie.

    “I’m waiting for my prince charming/white knight to sweep me off my feet,” or some variant of it.

    Well, your first problem is that was a fairy tale, honey. A fantasy. You know, as in NOT REAL.

    Now I tried to be pretty damn much exactly that, but you know it just doesn’t work. It’s good for driving you crazy, but not much else.

    If you wanted some “white knight” you wouldn’t treat people like me the way you do.

    You want to get pissed on.
    You want to get a failed relationship and divorce.
    You go to it willingly, knowingly.
    You like abusive men. Sure you do, you date them 10 times over before you’d even speak to me.
    You like drug users and thugs. Then when the asshole punches you in the face and ruins your eye or your jaw, you go back to him, or some other jerk worse than him.

    Hey, I’ve actually seen some of you get married, get divorced, and back on the same dating site. I’ve been single that long, and God help you, you still have the same problem you did before the previous marriage!

    And you HURT ME worse than I have ever hurt any person in my life. One after another YOU HURT ME.

    You complain if a guy messages too many girls inside a week, but from HIS perspective, he has the experience of being rejected over and over to the point of being disgusted with even trying, after not one of you answers within a year anyway.

    So why the hell am I, or any other guy, beholden to limit myself to wait on your response? Hey, we all know the vast majority of the time is NOT coming, because you’ve already rejected and pre-judged me for 500 reasons I don’t even know about, and I don’t have the time to wait on 1 response that isn’t coming per day or per week, BUT you hold that against a guy if he message 5 or 10 people.

    So you and your “girlfriend” posted two profiles online (I happen to know some of you are even dirty and make several extra “bait” profiles,) and a guy responded to both of them, because you know, maybe you both live in the same area, and maybe you’re both interesting, and maybe he has a God given right to talk to whoever he damn well wants to, BUT you two got mad at him and neither of you responded because he spent his time and wrote to two “women” in the same day.

    Oh my God what a CRIME.

    You spiteful, jealous Evil Bitch, get a life.

    If there was an ounce of love between the two of you, then you might have done something, you know, rational and mature, like I don’t know, talk to one another and see whether one of you was a better fit for the guy than the other, and maybe, just maybe instead of being a spiteful evil bitch, one of you might have got to meet a decent guy, and the other would get their chance later…but noooo. Instead, you both falsely accused HIM of being a “Player” because he read two profiles and said “hello”.

    Piss off. Try hard enough to make somebody look bad, and guess what? you will.

    Congratulations. You got what you wanted.

    If that’s how all of you are, then no wonder online dating is so screwed up.

    You’re a GIRL he’s a GUY. You’re on a DATING SITE. If you don’t answer him, he’s messaging someone else. You’re wasting his time, and you don’t have a right to demand that he only talk to you, when there’s next to zero chance that you’re actually interested in him in the first place. It’s an unfair and unreasonable standard.

    So after seriously coming to grips that women really do not want a decent guy at all, and moreover, they go out of their way to ruin the good name of the guys who are decent, I said wtf, you know. Why bother?

    Now on a forum, or a blog, you “ladies” will respond with criticism, insults, mockery, bad advice, good advice (I know not which is which at this point), etc, etc. Blame the guy for admitting he visited such and such site, etc.

    Same guy sends you a simple, “Hello, would you like chat or get a coffee sometime,” followed by a few sentences or paragraphs explaining things I think are interesting about you, that we might have in common, and so on, and you ignore it. I know you’re online, because some of these sites alert you that the other person is online, so it’s not like, “oh, gee, she just didn’t get the message yet, she’s having a busy day.”

    Hey, you certainly don’t owe anyone a response either, but as a guy, it would be nice, from time to time, if you even bothered to acknowledge that I’m a human being who actually sat down, read your profile, and spent 30 minutes or an hour thinking about what I liked about you and how to best say it. Wasn’t that one of “women’s” complaints? That guys don’t know how to express themselves, or they can’t spell, or they can’t write a meaningful message, “he sent me dick picks,” or some other BS I’d never do…

    Honestly, I find some very, very uneducated women online all the time on all the most common sites. I’m typing this rather quickly so it may not be evident, but I have a clerical aptitude about 4 standard deviations above average,a nd quite frankly most of you women are terrible at writing and spelling and elucidating or articulating your feelings and interests.

    You want a guy to be honest right? Not really, but you say you do.

    So here it is:

    Most of your profiles suck horribly, and I find myself poring over scores of stuff like this:

    Lazy:
    “Message me and I’ll tell” *otherwise blank profile.

    When you foolishly bother to message her, you won’t get a response.

    Canned soup:
    This one lists 50 adjectives and pronouns which are nearly identical to the other girl, with no substance.

    I’m thoughtful, lovely, provocative, honest, sincere, loyal, flexible, dependable, intuitive, sensitive, full of life, outgoing, endearing, understanding, expectant, expeditious, adventurous, “God fearing” etc, etc, humble, and so on.

    Can you write a sentence? A paragraph?

    Do you seriously complain about guys not being able to hold a conversation, while your very sentience is in question, as you sound like an android?

    Half of these tend to be con-artists anyway. There seems to be some hypnotic effect that the “Nigerians” have figured out, so that guys fall for this crap anyway, and then find themselves messaging somebody who is about to ask for money.

    I don’t know what the other half are, maybe they really are just that lazy.

    Obviously a liar:
    Half the responses in her basic bio are contradicted by what she wrote in the paragraphs section of her profile.

    So I go join some pretty dark, and quite honestly disgusting “Adult” dating sites. I guess insert “most guys’ excuse to visit a porn site”, but I honestly started going to those places because nobody would respond to me on normal dating sites.

    I don’t get replies from very many people there, but I actually do get to talk to people once in a while, but nothing ever seems to come of it, but a lot more than “Christian mingle” or okcupid or the rest of them. I don’t really even want to go to those sites, but for some reason one day I did, and I’m still ashamed of it, but they treat guys better there than on the supposedly “christian” site.

    Whatever. I’m done with this for now. I’ll probably say something else in a bit, but I’ve got  two papers to write tonight, and some other stuff, which I have to find time to do.
     

    1. 43.1
      starthrower68

      While I am certainly not without sympathy for your frustration I don’t think either gender has anything on the other when it comes to this sort of behavior.  I’m not asserting that you haven’t experienced what you claim but it would appear that it might be useful not to take this stuff so personally.  If a woman is choosing mistreatment over a healthy relationship, then you have dodged a bullet.  I can’t say I’m a fan of the PUA thing but maybe you might look into it for the sake of learning if there’s something you can take away to make your approach more effective.  I can only speculate, of course, but anything would be an improvement over the anger and resentment.

    2. 43.2
      EmeraldDust

      Wade @ 43 – First, I am sorry you are feeling so despairing.  And I hope you have your anxiety disorder under control.  I know that the world judges mood disorders very harshly, but in reality it is a brain chemical imbalance, but it is not judged like having low blood sugar or a calcium deficiency.  (perhaps because the symptoms are more difficult to deal with) but there are various treatments to get the symptoms under control. 
       
      I couldn’t read your post in it’s entirety, but I am really puzzled that Christians have such a hard time pairing up.  This is not the first I’ve heard about this.  I used to envy people who belonged to a church, because I figure they have a regular pool of people with shared values, and opportunities to meet.  And usually several types of special interest groups.  (singles groups, hiking groups, charitable work groups, etc.)  In the early years of my marriage I belonged to a Religious Science church (not a Christian denomination) and later Unity, which calls itself a Christian denomination, but more mainstream Christians called the a heretical cult.  Anyway, I sometimes think about going back, to give me a chance at meeting a fairly like minded person.  However, there were quite a few things that I couldn’t quite believe in both of these churches, so I would feel like a hypocrit going to a church to couple up and socialize if I wasn’t more on board with their beliefs.  And I’m an agnostic to boot, which is basically a Heathen, so even a very liberal church like those 2, I just wouldn’t be quite right there.
      But it really astounds me that Christian folk have the same, and maybe even more struggles than other searching singles.  Isn’t Christianity all about marriage, fidelity,  & waiting ? (although I think very few Christians wait until marriage, most are at least in a serious relationship that has a very real possibility leading to marriage before becoming physically intimate) 
      I see many singles struggle to find a partner, that I just didn’t think it would be that hard for.  (I’m in the 50+ crowd and I know that a tough order to fill)  But when I see young, very beautiful, very sweet women struggle to find love, and young, chivilrous, attractive men who are lonely and say they can’t find someone, and now Christians can’t even find each other on a Christian dating site or a church, it really does make me wonder, what on earth is going on, and why do SO MANY good people seem to struggle to find love ?

      1. 43.2.1
        Traveller

        @EmeraldDust:

        Emerald, I have an honest question for you. You said:

        “when I see young, very beautiful, very sweet women struggle to find love…”

        WHERE, exactly, are these women? Most of my friends are married, and every time this kind of topic comes up, they swear that there are “lots” of available women, all around. Yet whenever I suggest that maybe they should introduce me to a few of them, suddenly they can’t remember the names of any of these hypothetical women.

        So just where would one go to FIND these single women? Where do they hang out? How do you locate them? They don’t seem to have names, addresses or phone numbers, indeed, they seem to be invisible.

        Obviously, I’m not asking you to send me an address book, but I _am_ curious to find out where single women go to meet guys, so that I can go there, too!

        Lest I be accused of not being fair, I can tell women EXACTLY where they need to go to meet tons of single, eligible well-employed men. So let’s hear it. Where are all the single gals hiding?

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          This is just as dumb a question as when women say, “Where are all the quality men?”

          They’re everywhere. They’re just mixed in with the rest of ’em. Instead of focusing on “where are they?” focus on who you’re being that is failing to attract quality women. Seems to me that your litany of complaints would indicate a high level of insecurity, a victim mentality, a pervasive sense of negativity, and a considerable amount of delusions about the nature of women, dating, and online dating.

          In other words, 50 million people are married in the U.S. 1/3 of all marriages start online in some form. Seems to me that maybe it’s not as difficult as you think to find a partner, and that your 70 comments on the blog in the past day are more indicative of your blind spots than anything that is “wrong” with women in general.

        2. Traveller

          @Evan:

          Your comments are getting increasingly nasty, Evan. I asked her for her opinion on the best places to meet these women. Your rejoinder is uncalled-for.

          But since you keep trotting out that study you so cherish, let’s examine some of the figures cited.

          According to the CDC, there are 2,162,000 marriages each year in the US. That’s 4,324,000 people. Now, eHarmony’s own study, which they conducted, claims that 35% of those people met online. That’s 1,513,400 people. EHarmony’s own figures, from their advertising splash page, say that eHarmony alone accounts for 86,140 of those. They also claim to account for more marriages than all other online services combined.

          Match.com, which is in second place, doesn’t do nearly as well. From Match’s press kit, they claim that they account for 4, 380 people a year getting married from their site.

          Now, 86,140 + 4,380 = 90,520. That sounds like a lot, but that’s only SIX PER CENT of the claimed 1.5 million couples that supposedly met online. Which means that ALL the other online services, none of which are anywhere close to Match in volume of marriages, let alone eHarmony, have to try to account for the other 94% of the claimed figure.

          Now, when you put this together with eHarmony’s claim that they alone are responsible for more than half of the online-generated marriages, that means that about 88% of those are completely unaccounted-for.

          Either that, or the study is simply bogus, a puff piece designed as advertising for eHarmony’s services.

          Evan, you seem like generally a nice guy. I don’t want to fight with you. Please stop calling me names any time I disagree with you and accusing me of things without any basis. If I say that I suspect something is wrong, it’s because I have good reason to. I’m not any more biased than you are, but there are a lot of things that are open to interpretation. I don’t mind discussing them, or even arguing a bit, but I don’t appreciate the ad hominem attacks. Come on, can we be nicer?

          Have a good night.

        3. SparklingEmerald

          Ok, I’m not going to give you their names and addresses, but here’s a synopsis of sweet young things:

          A co-worker. Absolutely beautiful (think if Courtney Cox had a 20 year old daughter) Gorgeous figure, ebony hair, sparkling blue eyes, colgate smile, VERY SMART, (but in a rather average career, so she is not the “intimidating bossy career woman category”. ) Very sweet personality, and yet for all her beauty and brains, a little on the shy side. Not to the point of seeming mousey & timid, but charmingly shy. Again, for all her brains, she wasted 2 years with the office player. Left her heart broken. As for the office player, he’s pretty much run out of co-workers to play, so I assume he’s playing elsewhere. Perhaps “player” is an unfair characterization. He seems to be more of a serial monogamist. He has had a string of beautiful women, and seems to last about 2 years each relationship, but can never quite pull the trigger and get married. And why should he ? He doesn’t seem to have any problem getting a gorgeous girlfriend every two years. Check around your office (after checking with your company policies on “fraternizing”.) Is there a desirable (not necessarily drop dead gorgeous woman) single in your office ? Are you OK with dating a co-worker ?

          Meet Up. Very pretty woman in my Meet Up group. Sweetest personality I have ever met. I wanted to set her up with my son, but I miscalculated her age BIG TIME. Turns out she is 40. Thought she was late 20’s. (She’s Asian & I don’t judge ages of other races very well. She also has never had children, and she has the figure of a 16 year old, very slim hips) She is also rather shy. I know that she lived with a man for several years, but they never married. She will not try online dating. Frankly, I’m not sure how she feels about men, dating, etc. nor what she wants in that regard. Our friendship is mainly through Meet Up. I do see extremely overweight, men 20 – 30 years older learing at her and hitting on her. She just looks uncomfortable. She doesn’t tell them to back off, but she doesn’t lead them on. I want to smack them, but obviously I don’t.

          Going into the way back machine, I had a friend in my younger years who all my single men were drooling over. Very pretty woman, very bubbly outgoing personality, very nice figure. They all wanted to meet her. But she got hung up on a guy who just wasn’t that into her, chased him, ended up in a 2 year “this is not a relationship, we don’t need to attach labels to this, you aren’t my girlfriend” type thing. I wanted to smack her. (obviously I didn’t) They broke up, she married someone else a few years after that and we lost touch. They eventually divorced, now she is a single senior mom with a teenager. We are back in touch again.

          Since you seem so averse to online dating, consider Meet Up. I have had a few dates and one “almost relationship” as a result. Meet Up is like a combination of online dating and dating in real life. There are tons of special interest groups that do activities. People sign up to go to said activities. Most people have a profile with a picture. You can check out who is going to particular events, read their profile, check out the picture. If you get to the event, strike up a conversation. You just never know . . .

          I must admit, I have 3 never married girlfriends. 2 of them, I would say their biggest mistake is wasting time on EU men. (and they aren’t even the stereotypical, tall gorgeous man, just average looking emotionally unavailable men) They’ve languished years in relationship with men who “weren’t looking for anything serious”. (I’ve told them to no avail not to waste time with such men, they always tell me I was right, after they get dumped, but then they go out and do it again) My other never married girlfriend, well let’s put it this way, she lives out of state now, and if we were in the same state, I would be backing off that friendship. I honestly think she is OCD, She’s fairly attractive, great figure, nice facial features, but her tense look doesn’t help. But she is so particular and fussy and precise about EVERYTHING that she drove me crazy last time we had a visit. She gave me her opinion that I spent to much money on grapefruit. She told me I poured too much cereal in my bowl. We had to call ahead to restaurants to be sure they had her brand of liquor. It takes her forever to order a meal, because she has exact specifications for every damnm morsel on the plate. So there is no mystery to me as to why she never married (but she has had some long term co-habitating relationships)

          So traveller, try meet up, try work, try bookstores, try art galleries, try online dating again.

          I too am mystified when men claim that women never reply to their e-mails. I can’t tell you how many times I thought I was having a good rapport in e-mail, and then they disappeared. I responded to plenty of e-mails, and mostly they were a dead end to nowhere. I don’t respond to EVERY e-mail, but I don’t ignore them all as you seem to think our gender does.

          And yes, I don’t respond to a well written e-mail, if after looking at the profile and pic, I either see a glaring incompatibility OR, if I don’t see myself ever being attracted to the guy. I can’t always tell if I will be attracted, but there are times when I can rule it out. I catch some heat on this board for admitting that I am not attracted to every man who shows interest in me, but tell me Traveller, would you rather be ignored online, or waste an evening at a wine bar, only to be told at the end of the meeting “I don’t think we are a match” ?

          The last “well crafted e-mail” that I responded to has resulted in a relationship. I had to kiss a lot of frogs, but I finally found my prince. I am almost 60, and I would say am considered a “7” to most men (but my BF thinks I am gorgeous) It took 3 years of wading through flakers, fakers, losers, users and catfishers, but I found my needle in a haystack.

          I would say that 2 out of 3 of my never married GF’s wasted time with the wrong men. EMK always says to dump the guys who won’t commit. (or who abuse, cheat, etc.) Perhaps men waste time on “meantime girls”. You know, girls who keep their bed warm in the meantime while they look for the right girl. Men seem to think this is OK, because at least they are getting laid, but if it’s a real relationship they are looking for, they are wasting years of their lives with a “meantime girl” too.

          Don’t know if any of this helps, but there are plenty of women out there who want real relationships. They all won’t want one with YOU, just as you won’t want a relationship with all of THEM, but it only takes one. Good luck in your search.

    3. 43.3
      Evan Marc Katz

      Sorry for you Wade, but complaining about the opposite sex solves nothing. Complaining about online dating solves nothing. Complaining about Christianity solves nothing. You are the common denominator in your own life. No one else is to blame. So the next time you feel like venting, instead of writing a 3000 word screed on a blog for women, do it in a journal, to a friend, or with your therapist. You sound like you’re two seconds away from being the next Eliot Rodger and I hope you get the help you need.

      1. 43.3.1
        Wade

        “game”.

        It’s not a “game” to me.

        You’re right, I am the common denominator in my life.

        But you are wrong about “game”.

        A “game” involves two people.

        I show up, and I get rejected. That’s not a “game” that’s a well, in sports the analogy falls short, because there’s typically not a case where one team simply gets to say the other doesn’t get to play at all.

        I don’t get allowed to “play”, if you want to use that disgusting terminology, so I don’t learn anything, then when I complain about it, I’m told it’s my own fault that I don’t know anything.

        Great reasoning there. Marvelous.

        That part is NOT my fault, because I can’t change you, and I can’t get “dating experience” if nobody dates me because I don’t have dating experience.

        There’s something you don’t know involved, and I had added it, but I removed it because it’s not appropriate here.

        To put it mildly I was sexually harassed by women, and kicked out of college because they falsely accused me of committing a sex crime against one of them, and I had proof on closed circuit camera at a Wendy’s that I was not where they said I was when they said I was.

        Six on one, who would you believe?

        Most people would belive the six.

        A court would believe the six.

        Judge Judy would believe the six.

        Six out of a room of roughly 20 gave false police reports against me, and nobody defended me.

        Nobody.

        If not for a camera in Wendy’s proving I wasn’t where they all said I was, I’d probably be in prison for a felony that never happened, all because of some evil girls “prank”.

        That was 4 years ago. I thought I was helping myself by going to this local community college, instead I’m out 7k and a tarnished reputation, and a ruined credit score.

        What do you think now?

        That’s the less embarrassing version, and that’s not the first time. 

    4. 43.4
      Traveller

      Wade,

      I can’t address everything you said, but most of it is indeed accurate. Online dating is an incredibly frustrating experience for most men, unless you are one of the lucky 5% that won the genetic lottery and are tall, handsome and, hopefully, rich.

      I hear the frustration and anger, and all I can say is that you need to find another outlet for it because expressing it in any kind of a dating situation will just make things worse.

      I sympathize, and honestly, my best suggestion would be to try something else, since obviously online seems to be a dead end. I can’t tell you exactly what that would be, but you’re sure not the first guy I know who has had to give up on OLD, and you probably won’t be the last.

      Sorry, I know that wasn’t much help.

      1. 43.4.2
        SparklingEmerald

        I met my BF on match.com. I think he is very sexy, but he is not tall and he is not rich.(He’s not an unemployed dwarf either) I know another couple who met on match. Both fairly attractive people, but the hubby is not particularly tall and I have no idea what his income is. But from what I can see they are very happy.

        Contrary to what you might think, my checklist is not tall, rich and looks like a model. My guy has everything on my checklist. However my “check list” consists of 1. Treats me well 2. Emotionally available/relationship oriented 3. Healthy lifestyle 4. I am DEFINITELY attracted to him, never had to talk myself into it, not even for a nano-second. 5. We feel HAPPY in each other’s presence. So yes, I had my “check list” but I think it’s a fairly reasonable one, and I don’t think I am the only woman on the planet.

        Happy trumps all in my book. I don’t give a rat’s eyelash about TALL or RICH. What good are they if the guy makes me feel miserable ?

  14. 44
    Wade

    On the dork/geek thing.

    I don’t tend to have any sexual chemistry with other people like that.

    It tends to divulge into a bunch of facts and figures, or theorycrafting about something, and I’m already too much in my own head regarding such things, so that’s not going to help me in all likelihood. It runs the risk of making my problem worse in fact.

    You know, I’ll take that part of your advice, but I’ve tried this sort of thing before. Not the same site, but whatever.

    The “activity” becomes a distraction from the intentions of being social.

    I solve N-body equations in my notebook between classes, by hand, because that’s what I felt like doing that day, and I might write a program to do it faster some day, or I might never explore it again. That’s just the way I am. This is in regards to galaxy merger simulation, for example.

    Yeah, not conducive to dating behavior.

    Maybe it won’t be lke that, I’m just not sure where the passion about people is going to be digging through all the pedantic knowledge in my head and hers.

    I’m worrying about that, but it’s true.

    1. 44.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      “I don’t tend to have any sexual chemistry with other people like that.”

      And women don’t have sexual chemistry with you for the same reason. N-body equations are not hot to most women, even if intellect itself is.

      Your issue is confidence/self-awareness, moreso than being a nerd. Thus, you can either remain nerdy/celibate/blaming women and narrow your search to women who are attracted to sad/frustrated/angry/socially insecure…OR you can take on the responsibility of being the kind of guy that more women would respond to. I actually think the answer is both. You can largely stay true to who you are and you can join MENSA and find more likeminded people. But getting angry at cheerleaders who aren’t attracted to nerds, when you’re not attracted to nerds either seems pretty futile, no?

      1. 44.1.1
        starthrower68

        Well, at least I don’t feel so odd now for being stoked about Ken Burns’ documentary on the Roosevelts. 😝

  15. 45
    Jackie

    I really enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. A lot of real truth here. I am 60. I am healthy, fairly nice looking and very down to earth. Have met some nice people online and even had some relationships. 

    OK- here is where I stand- tons of odd scammers-language is stilted, photos are fake, and not to offend Christians, their is usually some overbearing language about being a Good Christian Man wanting a Good Christian Woman. I am not sure what this is about… Also in my profile writing I state who I am and what my belief systems are- how do people that are the exact opposite of who I am and what I believe in send me a message. ( This is on top of the 95% of profiles having no description of who and what they are about. )
    My biggest issue- HEALTH. I find that a great amount of men over 50 are simply not healthy- there is no way that I am looking a very heavy man and he is telling me “loves to go to the gym 5 times a week”, “runs or bikes marathons” – whatever.
    And along with the health issue is the sex issue. If you are not healthy, you are not great sexually. 
    If there were some way beyond meeting people besides online dating sites I would . I do not want to hear join a club, look at church bla bla bla. It is not easy to find someone, and having been married, raised 3 children to great adulthood- I simply want someone to be a good friend and lover- not negotiate someone’s lack of money, poor sex and caretaking that is not reciprocal.  

  16. 46
    Rizerax

    Just reading through the comments, I see a lot of guys going “I’m doing everything right, why aren’t I getting any responses?”.  I understand, but at the same time, a lot of the same guys continue their complaint and it turns into a either a whine or how something’s wrong with the woman.  I would encourage those guys specifically to make sure that hasn’t bled into your online dating profile or any of your messages.  Maybe you are bitter because you are doing everything right, but if that mindset of exasperation oozes into any thing the woman can see or read, you’ve already lost the game.  Overall, women aren’t dumb and they can read between the lines.  They don’t care if you really are a nice guy who will treat them right, when they can pick up right away that you’re angry, tired, bitter, or frustrated.  

    Would you want to date a woman that came across as defensive or bitter in her profile or message?  If you wouldn’t, they why would she?  Always keep in mind that the new messages your are sending out don’t know anything about you, make sure you are really putting your best foot forward. 

  17. 47
    Andy

    A lot of women go on those sites for casual hookups but don’t want to admit it.
    Also ladies, If you want a serious committed relationship, don’t become a professional dater.  Guys don’t want to get serious with a woman who has been handled more than the fresh produce at your local grocery store.

    1. 47.1
      Clare

      Must be one of the most self-righteous comments I’ve seen on this blog in a long time.
       
      “Guys don’t want to get serious with a woman who has been handled more than the fresh produce at your local grocery store.”
       
      Maybe women wouldn’t want to get serious with someone so judgmental? How is it his business anyway, who she’s dated or how many guys she’s dated as long as she is being honest about the things he needs to know?
       
      Guys who want to marry a virgin, or close, better be sure that they are able to uphold this ridiculous standard themselves.

    2. 47.2
      starthrower68

      Yours and similar comments are tiresome and annoying. The majority of the culture supports and engages in casual sex. At the very least, everyone wants to “test drive” each other before they can decide if the other is at least commitment worthy. Which way do you want it?

  18. 48
    Jonesy

    Further to EmeraldDust’s comments – just had the same experience and it has happened before. You find a string of belligerent emails in the morning from a (supposedly) drunk, angry, bitter man who was compelled to lash out at 2 in the morning. My profile and pictures show that I’m clearly a polished, professional, career driven woman. The men that send such messages are usually intimidated by women like us.
    I think one has to keep in mind that online dating can mess with your head if you let it. Consider that it’s an excellent vehicle for those men who would normally not approach a woman in public, to contact whomever they want, and say whatever they want. The reverse is true of women.There are a lot of lonely people out there, and they are desperate for interraction. If you choose to date online you’re going to have to put up with a lot of nonsense.
    Match.com clearly does not screen all profiles, and I’m quite sure they don’t take disciplinary action against those that are reported. I’m also convinced the only matching criteria they adhere to is woman seeking man. I’ve received thousands of matches from men aged 18 to 70 from all over North America, even though I’m a 55 year old woman seeking men aged 50 to 60 within 50 miles of my location. Having said that, it is flattering to be contacted by a man 15 years my junior, and there are a few gems in the masses. As my daughter wisely said, you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find the prince.

  19. 49
    phill williams

    That makes sense i feel better, now and not so much like a prick when i did nothing wrong. But send a friend request on meet me..I didn’t even say anything, i wont till i see if they accept my request…But to just block me is kinda extreme..They don’t wanna accept then don’t! But don’t just block me until i least message again when they do not reply back to me .

  20. 50
    Al

    A woman’s best friend in online dating is the ability to filter who sees her profile. It sucks that it usually costs extra, but it is SO worth it. Match allows you to decide who you’d like to reveal yourself to. I’m sure others have this option as well. It’s really the only way to find the gems amidst all the muck and keep out those guys who spam every women who appears without even reading her profile.
     
    Of course, you won’t get the all the attention and validation some women seem to seek. Not every guy you message will write you back and you have to be willing to accept that, but it gives you a much more realistic idea as to who is really compatible with you. If you keep your expectations within reason it’s a very effective way around the typical problems women find online.

    1. 50.1
      JennLee

      I totally agree with you that filtering is a great tool, but like most tools, it van be used improperly.  I also disagree that it gives you a much more realistic idea as to who is really compatible with you.  What it can do is allow you to filter out those who are actually compatible with you.  For instance, suppose a woman is a 6 or 7 in looks, and she gets messages from guys all over the scale, including 5s thru 10s.  She may then feel that she is wasting time with messages with guys who are not an 8 or above.  This would be the sites that allow people to be rated for attractiveness.  However, she may have just filtered out the men who would actually marry her.
       
      Or, she may get messages from men who are many different ages, so she may decide that since man men 1 to 10 years younger than her, are also messaging her, she will only allow messages from that age range to make it to her inbox.  However, she may have filtered out all of the men who would actually marry her.  I have a friend who would have missed out on the love of her life if she were allowed to filter in the way she wanted to.  She had set her age preference to 28 to 35, and she was 36.  She certainly had the looks to attract guys all the way down to 18, so she was getting plenty of messages from guys in her preferred range.  However, she was also getting messages from guys who were 36 to 50.  The truth is that most of the men in all age ranges were not able to capture her attention enough to get a response from her.  However, a 41yo and a 43yo did.  After awhile, she went on dates with both and liked both so much that she continued dating both.  She was honest about continuing to date until she was mutually exclusive with someone.  Both ended up asking her to be exclusive, so she had to make a choice.  She ended up choosing the 43yo, and they are both very happy, going on 9 years together.  Had she been able to filter guys so that only those in her age preference could see her profile, she would have never met the love of her life.
       
      The truth is, we women are often the dating equivalent of Cousin Eddie from the vacation movies.  Remember the scene where he was asked what his job was.  He was unemployed, but his wife said that he was holding out for a management position.  The joke being that he wasn’t management material.  In the same way, we women often overestimate which men we can get.  I think our grandmothers had it easier, because casual sex was less prevalent, and so was casual dating.  In short, men weren’t leading women on like they are today.  They weren’t as able to get sex outside of marriage, and if you were dating somebody else, other women might not want to date you, especially if you were known as a serial dater.  So men were not as likely to date women they would never consider for marriage.  By not engaging in casual sex, a woman was able to get a better picture of which men were actually interested in marrying her. 
       
      One of the best tools is often not utilized, even though it is usually free, and that is account verification.  Things such as age, location, height, weight, and even education level can be verified.  Almost nobody uses this, and I must assume the reason is that most people are telling lies on their profile.
       
      As for the spamming, many men do this, even the good guys.  We women are partly to blame for this.  We are often so vague or politically correct in out profiles that men really have no idea whether we would be a good match.  Also, as one friend put it, he is paying for the service, and there is no guarantee that a women will return his interest.  Also, let’s face it, men experience the same thing we do, in that you may be talking to somebody, and think it is going good, but they suddenly disappear.  So men use the shotgun method to find out who is interested.  Then he will talk with several women who seem interested to find out who is compatible.  Is there anything wrong with this?  No.  Would you stop accepting dates with other men just because one man is talking to you, and taking you on an occasional date?  No, you will keep your options open until you reasonably feel the relationship is real and headed for mutual exclusivity.  I never assume there is exclusivity.  I make the man ask for it verbally.  Until he asks for it, there is no exclusivity.

      1. 50.1.1
        Al

        You have some very valid points. I think I was unclear though. When I use the “Privacy” setting on Match nobody can see my profile AT ALL unless I contact them first. I prefer to do my own screening and contact only those men who I have an interest in. Sure, it cuts way down on the options since I get zero unsolicited messages, but I’m OK with that. It makes the system manageable for me. 

        My method will not appeal to everyone for sure. Since I am the one making the initial contact I would have no one to blame but myself if I was being too picky and got no replies. That’s what I meant when I said this way “gives you a much more realistic idea as to who is really compatible with you.” If you aren’t being realistic about what kinds of people might return your interest you will simply receive no messages. So far, I seem to be keeping within an appropriate range and I’m very happy with the results.

  21. 51
    Michael Everett

    The opening premise of this article is wrong and it only gets worse from there.
    I know a man who has posed as a woman on a dating site, and he enjoyed it so much that he eventually decided to give it up because he’d made too many online male and female friends under false pretenses. While pretending to be a woman, he’d treat men so badly, ignore them, be brief with them, insist that “she” didn’t want any relationship, but ultimately the men were just desperately wanting a bit of human interaction because they’d been so starved by real women. And real women contacted this “woman” just for friendship. Constantly telling “her” how nice “she” was to talk to. As a man, you never get this kind of affirmation and support. Yet it was the same person down inside!! That just shows you, if you are a nice, friendly person, the way you are treated socially depends on which genitals you appear to be wearing.
    As a male he suffered the most crippling depressing neglect. Women would not even open the messages he had carefully and thoughtfully crafted after searching for hours and reading her profile fully. Contrast this to the almost zero profile views that he recieved, and absolutely zero approach messages he received.

    Women do not have it worse. They have it easy. They can easily ignore the distasteful messages (although this is exaggerated, and probably only with women who have highly sexualised photos) and reply to the good ones. Men don’t have this option. We still get the occasional distasteful message, ones asking for naked photos of us, treating us like sex objects, assuming that we automatically want sex and only sex, disregarding our intelligence and integrity by simply messaging “hi.” as if we’re so low on the food chain that we should thank her for her almighty generosity of three keystokes and zero acknowledgement of our unique person. And if a man tries to sit back and do nothing like women do, he will receive nothing. No matter how many university degrees he has, no matter how much he earns, no matter how many charities he has championed, no matter what level of self-enlightenment and improvement he has reached, he could be the Dalai Lama in Brad Pitt’s body and he’d be lucky to get one legitimate message a year.

  22. 52
    Jess

    Women are as comfortable doing online dating as men. I`m on https://kovla.com/datings/us/  trying to find my soulmate and feel ok. My intentions are honest and clear, why should I feel ashamed?

  23. 53
    Mona

    I date on-line often and I must admit that all types of crazy awful men send me messages and I hate it. I’m a 41 year old attractive single female with a good career and the on-line dating world is getting flooded with the horrible guys that I would avoid in any public place. I work a lot and my circle of friends is very small so it was hard meeting guys so I started dating on-line thinking it would help me meet someone easier but it only opened the door to a bunch of guys who think they can use the internet as a way to meet easy women for hook-ups , casual sex and cheating. My #1 red flag is the guy who has on sunglasses in all his picture or he takes picture so far away you cannot see his face. What is he hiding from??? I’m sure it’s his wife of girlfriend…LOL My#2 red flag is guy who want to direct you to emailing him on another site but will not give you any other ways to contact him…This should always be a scary red flag he could be a serial killer or he does not want things to be traced. Do not meet anyone who does not allow you to talk to them on the phone first. My #3 red flag is guys who have a lot of shirtless pictures he is only looking for women he can sleep with because this guy cannot wait to send you a picture of his penis ..LOL. My #4 red flag is the guy who want to meet without talking on the phone or he wants to only text…He does not care to know anything about you and he bad with conversation. Just stay way it will be the worst date of you life. My #5 is the guy who has pictures of hiking, vacations, dogs, his kids, vacations, his cars and hardly any pictures of himself. This guy is trying to use everything he can think of to attract a lady..LOL. My #6 is the guy with only bathroom or pictures in the car. He is probably married and he only alone on his way to work or when he is in the bathroom. My #7 is when a guy takes picture so close to the camera you only see pieces of his face so you need a puzzle to put him together. This guy is very fat and hates the way he looks so he will only take pictures up close. This guy is also very scary looking he might crazy but very insecure. My #8 is guys who want your number without asking you anything about yourself. They provide the phone number is the first email…he is sending his number to everyone he is desperate just leave him alone. I avoid the guys that do not take the time to ask me anything about myself….

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