# Dating And Divorce: Is It ‘Survival Of The Sluttiest’?

In a Huffington Post article, New York comedian Juliet Jeske lamented that after the end of a nine-year relationship, she no longer knows how to date. She describes her experiences this way:

“As a person who is by nature very direct and to the point, dating is a mystery trapped in a puzzle, tucked in a fireproof safe thrown down a mineshaft. I just can’t figure it out.”

She goes on to say that “It is just sort of expected by many that you start the physical part of the relationship first, and then see if either partner wants to continue after the fact, sort of a try before you buy situation. Sex before emotional attachment, sex before any form of relationship, sex before everything.”

Jeske is complaining specifically about dating in New York, but I think this phenomenon is universal. I mean, how many times have I said that “men look for sex and find love and women look for love and find sex”? What Jeske doesn’t seem to get is that it’s not an either/or.

You don’t have to sleep with a guy on Date 2 just because some other woman will. That other woman is most likely being used and is wondering why all the guys she sleeps with never amount to anything.

What women DO need to understand is that men are driven by attraction, sex and testosterone. And if you think it’s ridiculous that he’s going to want to have a little foreplay before you’re in a relationship, you’re going to be perpetually frustrated by reality.

Instead of complaining that men are interested in sex (duh), how about you figure out a way to better connect with him outside the bedroom during those first few formative weeks/months? And if all he wants is sex, just ditch him. It ain’t that hard.

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1. 1
Soul Sister

I wasw divorced within the last two years and I agree with the confusion around dating.  It’s like the girls all turned into women along the way between 20 and 50, and the boys are….well, the boys I recognized from college!  We’re both horny, no one in the room is a virgin, and the woman is suppose to “hold back”?  So he is thinking “God this feels good” and she is thinking “God this feels good, should I be doing this, will he still respect me, will he call me tomorrow, will he think I do this with everyone, but I haven’t been laid in six months and I NEED this, didn’t my friend Betsy have sex with her husband on the first date and they are happily married…blah, blah, blah.”  I am not looking for a husband, but I do want to know if the sex is good I can come back for more and maybe even have some consistency!  And maybe even find we care about each other a bit!

So I made some mistakes, I got laid by some guys who later said “no thanks” and I tried to not make it about me. And then it happened.  I played the numbers game on Match, did the circular dating, and on my 3rd date with this guy we both looked at each other and knew. Our 4th date was a weekend at a resort, our 5th date was an overnight at his house, and our 6th date we took our profiles off Match.  And the best part was there was no second guessing.  I kept in mind what Evan says “men will do what men want to do” so I was just open and receptive to his pursuit, it felt natural and right, and there were simply no games.

So I think the confusion and anxiety is when one of the people is either not that into the other or not ready for a real relationship.  We were both ready, the chemistry was there, and we are just riding the wave.  Being vulnerable is scary, but for once it was just easy and right!

2. 2
Gem

I love my heart, my body, and my soul too much to treat them casually like a ride at an amusement park. There HAS to be monogamy, and mutual strong feelings for me

As Soul Sister said, sometimes it can happen very quickly that a couple just click, and they know they both want something deeper and meaningful, so things progress quickly. Every situation different.

3. 3
david

EMK — I was dying for your response on this!!!!

4. 4
david

Look I lived in NYC for 11 years and I don’t know who this lady is dating, going after, etc. — to quote Millionaire Matchmaker (and I can’t believe I just wrote that), “Her pcker is broken.” There’s no nice, cute guys in NYC? No guy that just wants to use you a sex doll? Really? In 2011? New York is just full of sluts and that’s the reason she can’t find love? And this absurd theory is firing up the blogways and various news outlets? She makes it seem it’s the SWinging 70′s / Plato’s Retreat all over again…Perhaps her article should be called “My Picker Is Broken ‘Cause I can’t Find a Decent Guy in the most Populous city in the United States.” I read her article and didn’t really relate to the world / people she’s describing….(and I’ve been in LA for 11 years, NYC 11 years)

5. 5
Goldie

@ Soul Sister #1 , I love your comment!!

“We’re both horny, no one in the room is a virgin, and the woman is suppose to “hold back”?  So he is thinking “God this feels good” and she is thinking “God this feels good, should I be doing this, will he still respect me, will he call me tomorrow, will he think I do this with everyone, but I haven’t been laid in six months and I NEED this, didn’t my friend Betsy have sex with her husband on the first date and they are happily married…blah, blah, blah.”

Yep, that was exactly what went through my head in this situation. “God this feels good, I just broke every dating rule in the book, I’ve ruined all my chances of seeing him again, but OMG totally worth it…” blah, blah, blah.

And then he told me there’d never been an emotional connection anyway – so there had never been any chances of seeing him again to begin with – so, totally worth it, amirite?

I thought about it and thought about it and finally realized that there are no rules, no expectations, just live your life as it happens, one day at a time… and it’s probably for the better, too. I cannot imagine a situation when two people are perfect for each other, and it doesn’t work out for the only reason that they had sex too soon, or too late, or otherwise not by the book. I’m now doing what Soul Sister did, I’m meeting new people, I’m doing what I want to do and not doing what I don’t want to do, on my own time frame, I’m putting no pressure on myself or the others, and it feels absolutely great. The quality of the people I meet, by the way, has improved dramatically too, once I changed my attitude. Highly intelligent, intellectually curious, all around fun and nice people. If ten percent of the guys I go out with now, remain my friends after a year, my life will be so much richer because of that.

I had a conversation with a guy last night when he said, “I’ve only been on my own for six months, and I still don’t know what the dating protocol is”. I told him, “I spent a year and a half trying to figure out the protocol. And, just when I thought I finally knew the protocol, guess what I found out… there is no protocol.” Everyone is at their own stage in life anyway, everyone does their own thing, and it’s not like the dating police will come and get a guy or a woman for violating the dating code. Just take it easy, do whatever makes you happy, try not to attach too soon, learn from bad experiences and move on… easier said than done, of course

6. 6
melie

Right on, Evan!

7. 7
Michael17

Well, New York City is a special case in that there are a lot more single women there than single men. Women there will feel more pressure to go by what the men want, which yes, tends to mean sex early on.

It’s not like that the further south and west you go in the US. Most cities out west have more single men than women, so there women have more power and choice.

8. 8
NN

Why would I want to get emotionally attached to a man whom I don’t get sexual satisfaction from?

Sure I want to test drive HIM, before I have wasted too much time.. If he is no good, I don’t see any point of meeting him after a week of sex – which is the usual case, as I get bored easily.

9. 9
AQ

Okay. I think the confusion is the OPTIONS. There are more options for “dating styles” than ever before. And unfortunately for the “commitment-minded soul” the other options include friends with benefits, hookups and one night stands.

BUT I think if you can try to be all you can be, you also have more options for people who want to date you – thin down, make your wardrobe better, work on your past so you forget it and can be fun and fresh again.

Here is my take.

SLOW down. Date a bunch of people until you find the person who wants to be your BF. If you don’t put yourself on the couch (meaning going to a house) you are going to avoid being a hookup before he really knows you and wants you.

I think you can really have a lot of clues on the first date – how much effort does he put into trying to impress you, is he a bit shy and nervous, is it romantic and is he nice and respectful. And the 2nd date should not be his bed – it should be something fun and did he CALL to make it and want it right away and want to impress you somewhere in public? Or did he text to come over to his house for dinner – BIG difference.

I think we all have to take more time to find one who will want to be our exclusive boyfriend before we have sex sex. THIS takes time and patience and aloneness. Once you make the boyfriend/girlfriend and exclusive dating arrangement you are on a speed train to the bed.  You better hope he has some emotion or spark for you before that – i think once they start rockin they don’t notice anything else.

NYC sounds like it is a hard place to date.  I wish everyone better luck!! That is sad for sure – but the person above who said women are outnumbered probably makes a good statement.

10. 10
Saint Stephen

NN #8
Why would I want to get emotionally attached to a man whom I don’t get sexual satisfaction from?

Sure I want to test drive HIM, before I have wasted too much time.. If he is no good, I don’t see any point of meeting him after a week of sex – which is the usual case, as I get bored easily.

If this is the only foundation on which your relationships are built then is bound to be a failure in the long or short Run.

What about after finding out his good in bed you become emotionally attached and he dumps you for some other lady he considers better in bed?
It takes more than sex or good quality of sex for a relationship to suceed except what you want is a fling.

Any lady that i happen to have sex with too easily will never be a Good relationship material to me, She will always remain an occasional Booty call or nothing else.
This is where i think i’m different from from other Men (i don’t look for sex and find love).

The point i’m trying to make is when you have sex with a “guy” or vice versa, you become emotionally attached and this clouds your sex of judgement.. i guess you already where a relationship like this headed?

The reason why the divorce rate in America is sky-rocketing is because people more often get maried for Wrong reasons, like financial security, good quality of sex, good looks, too much spark or chemistry, etc.
So whenever there is deficiency in any of the aforemetioned reason the next good alternative for them is to go see a divorce lawyer.
In “America” people now abuse the Marriage institution by getting in and out whenever they deem it Neccesary.

Personally i see a scenario where women are getting more slutty by the day while sniveling that Men are studs, there is No more descent guy, blah blah blah.

What Women seem to forget is that it ”takes two to tango” so there can be No stud without a slut.

Bottom line- is more easy to get someone improve sexually than to change the person’s bad characters which you might not be able to put up with in the offing.

11. 11
Margo

The truth is that it’s best that as women we don’t have sex with a man until he has given us a commitment. Otherwise, and what is happening nowadays is these men go from women to women having free sex and not giving any of these women a relationship.

That’s how men get to sleep with many different women, as many women that will give it up for free. Also, all men know the playbook, they know exactly what they are doing. No promises and then once they get it, it’s goodbye and on to the next woman. It’s scummy, but it’s the reality. Ladies, you must stand your ground if you want a relationship. You have to look out for and protect yourselves.

12. 12
hunter

@Michael17, many women on the west coast, stay in their own little circles or they choose to stay home most of the time….

13. 13
Margo

Saint Steven, says: ”any lady I happen to have sex with too easily will never be a Good relationship material to me”?

You wanna explain that? What is your part in it?? Here is the stinking double standard in it’s finest glory! Steven, it’s okay for YOU to have sex easily with the woman, and it’s business as usual, but because she was a willing participant in your dirt, she’s now dirty and unworthy of a relationship.

There you have it ladies…The true nature of men.

14. 14
Callie

Often it seems like another no win situation to me: hop in bed too soon with the guy and he won’t take you seriously. Keep putting him off and he find someone who is perfectly willing to go there. And what exactly qualifies as ‘foreplay’ before a relationship?

15. 15
Gem

NN #8,

“Why would I want to get emotionally attached to a man whom I get no sexual satisfaction from?”

Why would I want to get emotionally attached to a man whom I DO get sexual satisfaction from but find after the fact that there’s not much else he has to offer, and so chance for a relationship. I would have risked pregnancy, a sexually transmitted disease, and my emotions for the weight of a man on top of me who means nothing to me, and (hopefully) orgasms. (which, btw, I know I can do better for myself than a stranger who doesn’t even know me or my body could.)

“I don’t see any point in meeting him after a week of sex – which is the usual case, as I get bored easily.”

Maybe you get bored because you’re having sex with people before they have a chance to mean anything to you. In any event, if you bore that easily, don’t get married, and if you do, don’t have children because you will most surely wind up divorcing their father.

16. 16
Marie

I told a guy on our first or second date (after he specifically asked) that I’m not ready for sex until I’m in a monogamous relationship. He was on board with that, and then a couple dates later he told me he needed sex before a commitment, in case the sex wasn’t good. Haha. I’m a very sexual, sensual and open-minded person, so the idea of not being satisfied by me is…well… ridiculous to say the least. But I know there are women who’ll let him test drive the merchandise so have fun with that:) Ciao!

17. 17
sharon

@ Saint Stephen

Do you tell the women you deem to easy that if they sleep with you know you won’t be able to take them seriously or do you take advantage of the opportunity? If that latter is true you’re a best a hypocrite at worst an opportunist jerk. Either way I’d say the women you blew off dodged a bullet.

18. 18
Ruby

St Stephen #10

<<Personally i see a scenario where women are getting more slutty by the day while sniveling that Men are studs, there is No more descent guy, blah blah blah. What Women seem to forget is that it ”takes two to tango” so there can be No stud without a slut. >>

So the man gets to be a “stud” in all his glory, while the woman is nothing but a shameless, ”sniveling slut”?

19. 19
Margo

Regarding “Saint” Stephen, Isn’t it ironic that he has “saint” in front of his name. By reading his post, it’s obvious he’s a lot of things, but “saint” definitely ain’t one of them…

20. 20
Goldie

@ St Stephen #10:

“The reason why the divorce rate in America is sky-rocketing is because people more often get maried for Wrong reasons, like financial security, good quality of sex, good looks, too much spark or chemistry, etc.
So whenever there is deficiency in any of the aforemetioned reason the next good alternative for them is to go see a divorce lawyer.”

Ohmigawd you nailed it! Um… not. Do you know how difficult and expensive it is to divorce? Do you realize how much more it costs to live as two households instead of one? You mention a divorce lawyer; do you know how much they charge? Please believe me when I say that in the overwhelming majority of cases, people get divorced for very very valid reasons that I, personally, would not take it upon myself to question.

Now why they get married is another story… I’d add pressure from the society to the list of wrong reasons you’ve listed.

Re: the test drive being debated here: I support it. I’ve had it happen on one occasion when the man was really good – smart, funny, nice, responsible, and the sex (which BTW we waited till fifth date/five weeks for) was something out of a horror movie. And yeah, I was emotionally attached to him by then, to the point where I considered putting up with the crappy, weird sex because he was such a great person. Fortunately, the great person messed it up for himself by telling me he was only interested in casual, no commitment (?? what he would have done with his freedom, I will never know. Did he mean he found more women willing to put up with that?) I told him, sorry, I want a serious LTR. Truth be told, I have nothing against casual, but it better be really really good, not the opposite.

@ Marie #16: This guy sounds odd. Bringing up sex on the first date, implying that you may suck in bed in your conversation a couple dates later… what a gentleman. I’d send him on his way for reasons not related to my chastity or whatever, just because he sounds like a selfish inconsiderate jerk.

21. 21
hunter

Saint Stephen!!!…Looks like you are getting hit from all sides!!!

22. 22
saint stephen

Margo said:
You wanna explain that? What is your part in it?? Here is the stinking double standard in it’s finest glory! Steven, it’s okay for YOU to have sex easily with the woman, and it’s business as usual, but because she was a willing participant in your dirt, she’s now dirty and unworthy of a relationship.
why did you run an incorrect conclusion to the comment i made? and thereby putting words into my mouth.
i said if i happen to have sex too easily with a lady, never meant i did (that’s a future tense with uncertainty).

@sharon
Do you tell the women you deem to easy that if they sleep with you know you won’t be able to take them seriously or do you take advantage of the opportunity? If that latter is true you’re a best a hypocrite at worst an opportunist jerk. Either way I’d say the women you blew off dodged a bullet.
Really!!.. Why would i want to tell her that? am i her father?
Sharon do you tell the men you have sex with that you are test-driving them, so that you can be sure before heading into a relationship with them? i bet if you do non of them would stick around for a LTR or marriage no matter how good the sex was. and sharon if you don’t tell them does that also make you a hypocrite or opportunist jerk? would i be wrong if i\to think (or infer) that the men who moved on from you also dodged a bullet? regardless of whether they were good in bed or not.

@Ruby
So the man gets to be a “stud” in all his glory, while the woman is nothing but a shameless, ”sniveling slut”?
Ruby i never  said or even thought about it that way… but if you are implying this, probably means you were thinking it that way, then so be it. is gonna be difficult for me changing your preconceived notion, so i wouldn’t even bother attempting.

@Goldie
Ohmigawd you nailed it! Um… not. Do you know how difficult and expensive it is to divorce? Do you realize how much more it costs to live as two households instead of one? You mention a divorce lawyer; do you know how much they charge? Please believe me when I say that in the overwhelming majority of cases, people get divorced for very very valid reasons that I, personally, would not take it upon myself to question.
Goldie why don’t start giving us some of the valid divorce reason’s that is not related to my aforementioned reasons why they get married?
Example: divorce due to incompatibility is often the end result of too much chemistry relationship… when the chemistry wears off they become incompatible.
divorce due to unfaithfulness- end result of a good quality sex started relationship. what do you think is going to happen when for some reason’s you are not able to provide the man/woman the good quality sex he craves for? a man or woman that can’t stick around long enough to want to know your partner before having sex to me lacks self discipline, and would always end up being unfaithful if for any reason (like spouse traveling or having a medical condition) the sex is hampered after getting married.
Goldie sorry but i can’t seem to relate your expensive divorce fee to the seemingly increase in divorce rate and reasons. and 90% of women i know never got married from societal pressure, rather they desired companionship.

@Margo
Regarding “Saint” Stephen, Isn’t it ironic that he has “saint” in front of his name. By reading his post, it’s obvious he’s a lot of things, but “saint” definitely ain’t one of them…Margo please don’t judge me if you don’t know me.
The reason i made those comment was because i have been meeting a lot of women like NN lately that can’t  be in a sexless relationship no matter how nice, caring and romantic the guy is. Women of our time are becoming like Men and sex is no big deal to them anymore. i am sexually active last long hours and can even have sex 5 times a day but  i like to know my woman very much (her characters)  (if possible get married) before having sex. even if my partner is  bad in bed i’ll be willing to allow her learn as far as we click in every other aspect.
I know don’t know what it is about women, since i’m good looking they quickly assume or conclude if i don’t wan’t to have sex then it means i must be horrible in bed or perhaps i should say our women of nowadays have a huge sexual appetite, so they end up moving on to a guy that is very much comfortable with sex arrangement, if the guy for any reason moves on, you see them running to their friends, blogs and forum whining all men are stud.
Women are also double standard… just ask these women complaining men are stud how many of them are ready to be in a sexless (before getting to know each other well) relationship and see an overwhelming majority of them say NO! sure few of them would say yes but when they fall in love or become emotionally attached things changes and they would want to test drive him.
This has been the case with some of my girl friend they initially agree with the *no sex* arrangement only for them to later tell me they think they are in love and is okay if we have sex now, and they wouldn’t feel bad even if it ended… but i know this is not true with most women, they initially think they won’t feel bad but when it ends you have them feeling suicidal.
I don’t like having sex with my girlfriend(s) so in case i should find some their characters not appealing (and i know i can’t put up or cope with it), then i can quit without them feeling used.
I am not ready to change my principle for any woman, i’d rather wait till i find a woman that fits into my ideal and wouldn’t have a problem in “Waiting” then i can assure you we are in for a lifetime relationship and marriage.
I know many of you will think me odd but the truth is Marriage to me is a very big deal because i don’t believe in divorce… that’s why i’d rather wait long to find my ideal partner rather than rush in and out of marriage. i also don’t get fooled by spark, chemistry, sex, beauty etc.
and GOD forbids my wife dies i am staying single for the rest of my life.. That is to tell you how sacrosanct i consider marriage to be.

23. 23
AQ

I have also learned in the dating process that while it is really easy to share a lot of details online and on the phone and by email, it really takes TIME to get to know someone in person and to see how they are going to react to YOU, too, as they get to know you the same way. I feel it is best not to answer texts because I don’t want a text message relationship. I think it is important to space the dates apart and date several people without having sex with them so I can evaluate clearly. There is no way you can know someone good enough by the 2nd or 3rd date to know if you want a relationship much less sex. I am finding that spacing the dates out slows the whole process down and I don’t get too attached – i can think much better.

24. 24
Margo

@Stephen #22- And I will not call you “Saint”. Please don’t explain to me what you have or have not done yet. It doesn’t matter if you did it or not, your position on the issue has been revealed.

It’s obvious that you are not from this country, but here in the U.S. we have a different mindset on romantic relationships between men and women. Any woman that marries a man without having sex with him, especially the older they both are, opens herself up to a can of worms.

By that, I mean they may not be sexually compatible. Some things can be worked on and be fixed, some things can’t… If the man is the one who is against having sex before marriage, chances are very high that he has something to hide in terms of his sexual functioning…Ladies, beware. I do believe that most women are smart enough to know this though. They can pretty much sense that something isn’t right with a man like that.

If one or both parties are against it for religious reasons, then that is different. In that event, both parties had be able to trust that the other party is being totally honest in that department.

Even then, I wouldn’t marry someone without having sex with them first. I wouldn’t even be in a long-term relationship with someone and put off sex for a significant amount of time.

25. 25
Goldie

@ St Stephen #22 (jeez, what’s with the bold font… hurts my eyes)

Goldie why don’t start giving us some of the valid divorce reason’s that is not related to my aforementioned reasons why they get married?

Sorry, I’ll pass on your offer, you know why? Because, when I look at a couple that has been together for 20-some years, raised kids together, and then decided to split up, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. I figure that two intelligent, rational adults wouldn’t put themselves and their family members through this unless they really had to. Divorce is a tough thing to go through, is on the list of major stress factors, and to assume that people decide to go through it because the spark wore off (what, after twenty years?) seems to me a little patronizing.

sorry but i can’t seem to relate your expensive divorce fee to the seemingly increase in divorce rate and reasons. and 90% of women i know never got married from societal pressure, rather they desired companionship.

I paid 5K for an amicable divorce that was settled outside of court. If to you that’s small change, I’m happy for you. Isn’t for me. The increase in divorce rates is due to the facts that divorce is more socially acceptable now (there is no stigma attached), and, more importantly, that the divorce laws have changed with more states allowing for no-fault divorce – i.e. you’re no longer required to air your dirty laundry in court in order to get permission to split up.

26. 26
Bettina

I find Saint Stephen’s point of view interesting. I suspect that he comes from another culture where the dating/mating code of conduct is different. He isn’t saying that he participates in the behavior we’re talking about. He is saying that he himself isn’t into what he sees as promiscuous behavior and that he wouldn’t be interested in a woman who is. He is also saying that women pay a higher price for this kind of behavior, in his observation. He knows that he could get away with it, but he is choosing not to. He would like to be respected for this position toward women. He is a realist.

What Saint Stephen might be discovering: Here in the US, the land of so-called “freedom,” people are less bound by one broad code of behavior, and there is a strong push to justify/explain/rationalize and make generalizations about all types of behavior. If you can throw some stats around, too, you can get your generalization to pass for an unassailable truth. Which lots of people here in the US want to do in support of the same cliched, unimaginative ideas about male/female relationships. These folks are obstructionists.

What’s missing: The understanding that we are much more than a hackneyed stereotype of our gender. Lots of men (perhaps Saint Stephen is one) is insulted by the suggestion that he is hoping to stumble upon love while in blind pursuit of physical release. And lots of women are  interested in men for only reasons of physical release. Further, our needs/wants from others change over the years, and so would our ways of relating. I am an idealist.

What shouldn’t surprise any of us, though: If a guy talks like a dog or hangs out with guys who act like dogs, he is giving his tacit approval of that behavior. He shouldn’t be surprised, then, if women condemn him by association. He needs to walk away from/stop talking like men like that, instead of trying to be one of the boys. Likewise, if a woman wants an equal relationship with a guy then she needs to put her feet where her mouth is and walk away from these cliches without looking back–not engage. Let’s be activists.

27. 27
Helen

To poor Juliet, I offer this advice: move out of New York. I don’t mean to cast aspersions upon that city… but it sucks in so many ways, and is overrated in almost every other.

For women, it’s especially hard, as what Michael #7 said is right: there are far more single women than single men. NYC women make themselves absolutely beautiful, fashionable, smart, and accomplished in every way imaginable. But in some ways, they have to. They have no other choice if they want a relationship, let alone a date. They also have to put up with hookups to a certain extent because of the skewed female-to-male ratio and the sheer competition. It’s sad, because these women are amazing and would be catches nearly anywhere else in the world.

I grew up and first entered the dating life in east-coast metropolises. Then I moved midwest (where I found hubby) and was shocked at first, in the sweetest and best way possible. Men were paying for dates. Men were polite and chivalrous. They were down to earth, manly, gentle. Not sophisticated and schmoozy, but I never cared for that type anyway. Hub is of the same stock.

I don’t mean that the men who grow up in the midwest are inherently superior to men living in NYC. I also don’t mean that dating is perfect here; it’s rife with problems no matter where you go. What I do mean is that there are different expectations surrounding relationships in different locales, and that it is a lot more comfortable for women out here. In turn, that level of comfort brings out our relaxed and feminine sides, which I think is also more appealing to men.

So, Juliet, if you come out here, you can find multiple quality men in a snap who would find you datable and matable. It’s not as exciting, “cultured,” and frenzied as the Big Apple, but life is pretty sweet. (If you want to keep your current job, though, that’s a whole different complication!)

28. 28
Goldie

@ Helen, as an immigrant, I’ve had the worst luck dating in the Midwest. (then again, I haven’t tried anywhere else). While I can connect pretty well with transplants from other states, I’ve had the absolute worst luck with the guys in my age group (40s) and up, who were born, grew up, and have lived all their lives in the same area they’re living now. They are so not used to being around “foreigners” that they see me, not even as a different class of person, but as different species. I find it pretty revolting. Oh well, from what I understand, Juliet won’t have that problem. Have to add, from what I’ve seen, guys in their 20s and 30s do not seem to have that attitude, which is good.

But, yeah, they all do pay for dates, that much is true.

29. 29
Soul Sister

@Saint Stephen, out of curiosity, would you mind telling us how old you are and how long you have been in America?  I am only asking to get a context of your perspective.  I know that my views have changed greatly through the years and that all of my feelings and thoughts at any time of my life were very valid for that time, but they may change with life experiences.

In my early 20′s (college) sex was for fun. In my later 20′s, I was husband hunting and I found a kind man who was similarly educated, similar background, similar core values, and most important, I knew he would be a great father. 20 years later we divorced but not because we married for chemistry and it disappeared but exactly the opposite!  We had some chemistry, but not enough to provide the kind of passion I hoped for and I missed it…greatly!

Today I am 50 and I am very self sufficient, therefore in a relationship I am looking for two things:  fun and passion.  Both of these are a requirement.  There is a very odd thing going on (my own experiences as well as stories from my girlfriends): men in their 40′s and 50′s are having issues getting erections or finishing.  WTF?  (Evan, any comment on this?  This is a hot topic among my friends and we are very confused…it cannot be age, they are too young!! And this is an attractive group of women, we know we can turn a man on).  And there is no way I am going to get I involved with a man who cannot physcially perform.  There is a big difference in doing “to” me vs. doing “with” me. It is simply not acceptable and I am absolutely going to make sure everything works before I get emotionally attached to any man.

And my experience has been that we may have all these rules and expectations that we say we want, but when you meet someone very special, lots of those rules fly out the window and sometimes you do just have to take a chance with your heart.  I know too many people who had sex very early on and stayed together, and too many people who waited and ended up splitting.  It is a bit like gambling, and sometimes you just have to go for it.

30. 30
Goldie

@ Soul Sister #29:

“There is a very odd thing going on (my own experiences as well as stories from my girlfriends)…”

Yes. Yes, there is an elephant in the room! Worse, some guys use it as a reason to push the woman into getting exclusive fast, because, you see, he performs so much worse with a condom on, the poor thing – so much worse, he just can’t deal. And by exclusive they mean, not a meaningful relationship, but getting together at his place or your place roughly once a week, depending upon whose kids are at the ex’s this weekend. How fun.

I cannot thank you enough for your comments on this thread, every one of them spot-on. If you were in my area, I’d buy you a drink

31. 31
Helen

Goldie, wow. I’m sorry. That strikes me as so strange: these midwesterners are all from immigrant stock themselves from just a few generations back, particularly Scandinavia and Eastern Europe. And clearly you’re whip-smart and funny, which they should love. Being Asian, I’ve had a few odd stares here and there (when venturing out into towns in the middle of nowhere), but mostly they take me for who I am.

Actually, why don’t you try dating in the 30s age group if you find they are more tolerant towards you? Maybe not just finding them online, but also finding them in person in the community. It never hurts to cast your net wide, and 30s men are not significantly less mature than 40s men.

32. 32
Sayanta

I’m not a man, but as for the erection issue, I imagine that the stress of modern times (unemployment, long working hours, broken marriages) coupled with the trauma of dysfunctional childhoods play a role. Add the fatty American health-destroying diet to that, and I’m surprised there would be any virile men at all.

33. 33
Soul Sister

@Goldie #30

Thank God we in the SW are not the only ones out here experiencing this….we think there is something in the water or the food!  I would love for some of the men on this blog to chime in on this and give us a male perspective on what might be happening?  It is obviously not something men want to talk about, but then maybe that is hijacking Evan’s blog??

The other problem this issue brings up is that if this happens the first time I am with a man, even if we have gone out on several dates, I know there is a 50/50 chance I will hear from him again. Even if I am understanding, the man is either embarrassed, or he does not want the issue to be about him so he makes it about me, I didn’t turn him on enough, whatever.

So guys, anyone feel like stepping up and telling us what is going on?  And I am 100% convinced it is not because we slept with him too fast and he thinks we are a “slut”!!!!

34. 34
Margo

@Helen 27, my experiences with dating in So. California have been similar to your experiences with dating in NYC. Unfortunately, the prevalent attitude among most men I’ve come across, or heard/read about in the dating arena is that they believe they are owed sex on some level.

35. 35
Margo

Goldie and Soul Sister, re sexual dysfunction among 40-50+ year old men. I can relate. I experienced this 3 years ago with a man and as recently as 3 months ago. One man was 52, and the other was 46. The younger one had mental issues and was undergoing a fair amount of stress at the time. If I was still seeing either of them, it would have been a problem. In fact, it already was a problem with the man I had been seeing the longest (older one).

The cold, hard truth is that if a man can’t get it and keep it up, I don’t want him.

36. 36
helene

The issue goes transaltantic! I live in the UK and have also recently dated a guy in his mid 40s with erectile problems…. its depressing! Especially as a lot of the guys who contact me on line are well into their 50s – don’t even want to go there!

37. 37
themodernfemme

I have never heard what what men and women look for explained so simply. I like simple! It makes sense too!

38. 38
nathan

This thread has some of the most depressingly bitter comments about men I have seen on this blog. I get it that you’ve had some rotten luck, or haven’t had many positive examples of men in your lives recently (or ever maybe), but my god, some of you make men sound like dumb, broken, sex crazed assholes. And some of you wonder why men don’t want to share how they think and feel with you.
Soul Sister, after the string of comments here, I’d bet the only kind of guy you’ll get commenting on an issue like erectile dysfunction is someone like Jack, who doesn’t really give jack about what most of the women think anyway. Notice that the rest of the men has vanished from the conversation, and I think I’ll save the few thoughts I have about ED for another, less hostile thread.

39. 39
Soul Sister

@Nathan 38

I am sorry if the topic is depressing to you, it is depressing to us too!  I honestly thought I might get some thoughtful answers from some of the men on this very perplexing issue as you would have the benefit of being anonymous.

But I guess men still don’t want to talk about it, even getting the opportunity to hide behind the internet!  I guess it is easier to talk about women being sluts and men being studs than to talk about women having healthy sexual appetites and wondering…where the hell did all the real men go?  And that doesn’t mean a man who doesn’t have ED, it means a man who is man enough to talk about it with a woman who is asking an honest question.  Is it us? Is it you?  Is it the water?

But hey, I guess we women don’t offend that easily, we’ve been called sluts and worse for centuries…..unfortunately, we are also very used to the Vanishing Act the next day from the male population, and I would be willing to bet after a night of hot sex not too many of you men are wondering “will she go out with me again”?  Cause trust me, if the sex was good, we’re usually in for round 2, we don’t spend a lot of time analyzing if you are still a “good boy” or a “slut”…..

40. 40
Margo

Correction in my no. 35 post: The younger of the two men was 43, not 46.

Soul Sister, you nailed it. I’ll bet you dollars to donuts that the men who are offended by the discussion turning to erectile dysfunction suffer from it themselves. Actually, that’s pretty obvious.

@Bettina #26, I’m not sure I understand your need to defend Stephen. You didn’t look closely enough. If you had, you would have seen the language of a man who hates women.

1. 40.1
Evan Marc Katz

What’s that line, Margo, about seeing things in others that apply to yourself?

41. 41
Moe D

I’m a 37 y/o male and I love women.
I’ve enjoyed the sexual freedom of today’s woman during my dating years. Made it easy to keep a team of women, with honestly & integrity. An honest ladies man.
No sexual dysfunction here, but Sayanta #32 made some good points. I believe a mans psychological state and testosterone levels are 99% of the erection game. And our American society has been aggressively emasculating males for the past 40 years or so.
Socio-political conspiracy? I don’t know…but it’s sure as hell is obvious.
Also, a domineering woman can have the effect of softening a “beta” male to dysfunction…but you didn’t want him anyway, right?
If you brought that bossy attitude with me to bed, I’d make you pay slow, fast, and multiple times.
Evolved and conscious, but it’s still hard not to think about a woman’s sexual history — when I got it on the second date with minimal effort. There are exceptions to every rule, but that’s not wife material, IMO. YMMV.

42. 42
Gem

Margo,

When I read Saint Stephen’s post #10, I wasn’t offended at all. I’ve re-read it and don’t see any language that shows that he “hates women.”

Wasn’t it you who said in another thread: “A man who tries to have sex with a woman on a first date…is tantamount to sleezy behavior/character?”

Why is it sleezy for a man to have/try for sex very early but not women? Stephen is saying he doesn’t engage in that behavior because he finds it wrong for his morals/goals of finding the right woman. And he’s not interested in a woman who does that either.

He doesnt’ expect higher standards for his future woman than he is has for himself. If you don’t like his use of the word “slut” in his example, I think he’s just using the word EVAN used in the post title.

I get that you don’t like the double standard some people have regarding men/women and the whole stud/slut thing….but again, if you think men who try to/have sex very early are scumbags and sleezy, why aren’t women sleezy in your opinion who do the same thing???????

43. 43
Goldie

@ nathan, I meant no offense, and apologize if I came off that way. I’m totally understanding of ED, along with other issues we all may have at our ripe old age. No one is perfect, definitely not anyone after 40, definitely not myself! I am completely willing to work around any problems together, and believe that a serious relationship is still possible with mild ED. What I dislike, though, is when people use their ED as leverage to push me into things I don’t want, or, like Soul Sister said, as an excuse to pull a disappearing act the next morning. Do not treat others like you don’t want to be treated, and all that. Reason with us. For crying out loud, we’re mothers, we’ve raised children, we’re used to dealing with people’s problems. We will understand!

My guess to “why this is happening” would be, too much damn stress in our lives. Multiply that stress by ten if a guy is recently divorced. Double that if his ex has never worked outside the home, and now his entire income goes towards alimony and paying for her house, his apartment, and the kids’ college. There, mystery solved.

44. 44
saint stephen

All you ladies can crucify me all you want… but what i want is what i want… i look for love with my head not with my heart.
If your romance and dating culture is not helping then is time to adopt a new approach.
So far the only thing it has succeeded in doing is raising up a lot of kids in broken homes and failed marriages which leaves the children (helpless victims) with a lot of psychological and traumatic effects.
and often this children grow up and continue this trend.

the feminist movement has also contributed a lot to it. i know from experience (origin and history) that marriage works when there is a dominant partner ( by dominant i don’t mean the man oppressing the woman), because two captains can’t be in a ship.
This is why societies where gender roles are clearly defined (especially in Marriages) have higher Marriage success rates.

@Margo
i once dated a suicidal girl out of sympathy because boyfriend dumped her, i had to stick long enough with her to make her feel validated enough to want to continue living, and all the while i imagined myself in her ex-boyfriends shoes who didn’t give a damn.
Margo- if this girl happened to be your daughter and she managed to pull through with the suicide because boyfriend used and dumped her, how would you feel? Just because you don’t get attached having string of “hyper-sex-crazed” relationships doesn’t mean every one can. and yes i’m very sexually active.

@Soul sister
i’m 24yo, though i don’t see how relevant that question was, at least i think i’m old enough to know what i want.
And i never said waiting or having sex is what determines the success of a relationship or marriage, rather i said it helps me get to know the lady *properly* without emotions conflicting, secondly if i don’t find her to be what i want, then i can move on without any party feeling hurt or used.

@Goldie
is obvious you still don’t get my point.
e.g. financial security- don’t marry someone because of his very good high income job he could easily get laid off, and when you become saddled with financial responsibility marriage could crumble.
Good quality sex- medical condition could develop and partner might not be able if at all have sex for a long while.
Good looks- husband can get disfigured by accident, wife could give birth and grow some serious extra pounds (i have seen this happen all the time).
if you want your marriage to succeed look for qualities in your life partner  ”to-be” like e.g,  hard-work, intelligence, witty, if you are quick tempered look for someone who is slow to anger and vice versa (a typical case in my family, my mum is quick tempered but my dad tolerates her temper tantrums cos he’s slow to anger), and make sure you share the same ideas and life goals.
Goldie- no marriage is made in heaven they all have problems but is how you handle it that determines the outcome.
My parents are happily married for 30something years now, sure they they had series of problems( many threatened the marriage), but they are happily together now because they decided suck it up and deal with it like matured adults. when i see all the love reigning in my family, i couldn’t wish for something better for myself.

Margo said
I’m not sure I understand your need to defend Stephen. You didn’t look closely enough. If you had, you would have seen the language of a man who hates women.
Margo i’m not sure how you are arrived at your deductions, but they are always misconstrued.
i’m not a misogynist. what i loathe is loosed women with huge sexual appetite (slut to be more precise), cos they tend to lack self discipline.

@Soul Sister
ladies (i mean the slutty ones) contributed to the erectile dysfunction men are now suffering from, so why complaining? what goes around comes around…. after this men have indulged in a huge quantity (for lack of another term) of no string attached sex, nature takes is course. probably lets say “law of diminishing returns”.

45. 45
Bettina

Margo@40: I’m not giving St. Stephen a pass. My comment about not talking like a dog if you don’t want to be perceived as one was directed at him (and others). I know a lot of guys who talk like dogs but don’t act like dogs. They want to be acknowledged for not being dogs, not realizing that their talk is an action, and that it is an action that reinforces these out-moded ideas, helping to keep them in place. I’m just not attacking him for it because that kind of exchange also reinforces the idea, and it doesn’t help him to understand. In other words, I don’t think he actively harms any woman–he seems to want to connect with someone. He talks trash about women in general, though, which won’t help him to that end.

EMK@41: Everyone is guilty of that. Anyone who thinks he/she isn’t is probably the worst offender.  :)

Nathan@38: Well, there are a lot of “dumb, broken, sex crazed assholes” out there. And they do a lot of damage–one bad apple and all that. Realizing that this behavior has a trickle-down effect in your life (you have to deal with “damaged” or “traumatized” women who “hate” men), you could be speaking out against that type of male behavior in a level way instead of trying to take on the women who are speaking of it in a more, uh, direct way. Their POV won’t change just because you call them names and tell them that they’ll never get a “relationship” if they talk like that. They want the same thing that you want–a lover of the opposite sex who accepts them as a person, warts and all, instead of looking at them as a thing to fill up some lack in their life.

That said, it goes the other way. We women need to call out our sisters who see men as objects to fill up the holes in the way that women do it. The position that many women take is somewhat illogical. We get our education and have good jobs, enough money, and don’t need a relationship to have children, and yet we still want a great outpouring of love and affection…from the very blokes we say aren’t capable of it. It’s some strange kind of princess fantasy: I am going to be so fantastic, so beautiful, so magical, that he will be overcome by emotions he’s never felt before and will step up to make my life meaningful. And he, of course, has to be a prince. Delusional.

46. 46
saint stephen

@Bettina #26
Thanks for having an insight… u’re great.

47. 47
Margo

I don’t hate men, Evan. I just won’t put up with unsavory character and behavior. I don’t have to.

48. 48
nathan

Soul sister – I have been commenting on blog posts here for months. You can look through the archive. Never once have I called women sluts and I frequently stand up again all stereotyping, regardless of gender. In fact, I don’t treat sex as a “slut” test, or a way to disappear on a woman. But you know what, I wonder if any of that matters to some of the women here. I’m damn well sure Margo doesn’t give a damn about any of that because she’s too busy hammering home her “men are pigs and jackasses” story to listen.

There have been plenty of men that come on this blog who offer fair, honest responses, and who don’t slump to blasting all women as X,Y, or Z. But I can imagine they grow, like me, tired of hearing the same old cliched, nasty generalizations over and over again tossed back at them.

Women are often wishing for men who will respond, share, and be open. And I support that wish. But in order for that wish to happen, you have to listen. Not assume what I or any other man thinks. But listen, and then do your best to respond without resorting to cliched, generalized statements about men.

49. 49
Helen

I don’t think Bettina was wrong to defend Stephen. Frankly, I would too (BTW, my guess is that he’s Asian). Not so much his specific words, some of which I don’t agree with, but the general notion he conveys that America as a whole has some batsh*t crazy attitudes when it comes to sex.

On the one hand, we have puritanical notions that we’re not supposed to talk about it, or if we do, it’s in giggles and hushed words and euphemisms, or else outright hostility. We treat sexting as though it were a crime, even though it doesn’t hurt anyone. We treat suggestive photographs as though they were a crime.  We shame others who have sexual appetites, even though, inherently, there is nothing wrong with sexual appetite.

On the other hand, we are probably far more insane than other cultures in expecting others to put out. We have all these silly rules about how many dates before sex. We talk about “test-driving” others, a notion I find abhorrent whether it comes from a male or a female; it is so dehumanizing. We believe politicians’ sex lives and co-workers’ sex lives are our personal business.

In short, we’re a nation obsessed with sex, for all we try to hush it up.

I would prefer the Canadian or European model: more open about everything sexual, just treating it as a normal part of human life without the need to either hide it or trumpet it.  There, you might find the conversations about ED that you want.  Not so much here.  It isn’t the fault of individual guys on the blog.  It’s the mess we’ve made of our sexual attitudes in general.

50. 50
Helen

…but after reading Stephen’s post #45, I’m taking back my vote of support. Too many of those statements are completely clueless and judgmental, especially about divorce and labeling women with sexual appetites as “sluts.”  In his defense, he’s only 24, so maybe with another decade or so of life, he’ll lose some of that cluelessness and arbitrary judgment.

51. 51
Goldie

@ St Stephen:

Ahh, 24… I see. Don’t you worry, it’s relevant.

if you want your marriage to succeed look for qualities in your life partner  ”to-be” like e.g,  hard-work, intelligence, witty, if you are quick tempered look for someone who is slow to anger and vice versa (…), and make sure you share the same ideas and life goals.

All these things can change. As people age, they change, sometimes in unexpected directions. Not to mention your life partner may con you into thinking he’s all those things, when in fact he’s not.

“Goldie- no marriage is made in heaven they all have problems but is how you handle it that determines the outcome.”

Sorry, but the rightwing talk about sucking it up and sticking it out in a marriage no matter what makes me see red. Here comes something I’m not very comfortable sharing on this blog – my FIL was an alcoholic. MIL, a smart, independent, hard-working woman, sucked it up and stayed with him for 40-some years, till he drank himself to death. Sometimes she would complain to the kids (us) about how she hated his guts, and then she’d go on living with him, I guess because she thought she didn’t have a choice. Way I see it, he robbed her of the only life she had. So don’t you dare tell people like her to “suck it up and deal with it”. You haven’t been in other people’s shoes, you cannot know the hell they may be living in

“ladies (i mean the slutty ones) contributed to the erectile dysfunction men are now suffering from, so why complaining?”

Um… okay. Would you mind posting links to medical/scientific data that substantiates this claim?

52. 52
Margo

@Helen #51, yup!

“Saint” Stephen says: “I’m not misogynist. What I loathe is loosed women whith huge sexual appetite (slut to be more precise) cos they tend to lack self-disipline.”

And there you have it! LMAO. Anyone else want to take a stab at defending “Saint” Stephen?…:D

53. 53
Bettina

Margo@48: Exactly. Walking is a lot more effective than talking. Glad to see that someone else is advocating this position on here.

Helen@50 and Margo@53: Yes, I think young and non-native English speaker. So he doesn’t understand how offensive the word “slut” is. He’s probably heard it in a particular context that means something else to him, and English words don’t carry the same emotional weight. You can swear all you want around non-native English speakers and it’s just sounds to them, even when they know the literal meaning of the words. I’ve had this discussion many times with my Eastern European or Asian friends: “Uh…you don’t want to use that word around anyone unless  you know them really, really well….”

Goldie@52: Well put.

54. 54
nathan

Bettina, “you could be speaking out against that type of male behavior in a level way instead of trying to take on the women who are speaking of it in a more, uh, direct way”

You’re a regular commenter here. Go back and read my comments from previous threads. I often call out generalizations and stereotypes, regardless of gender. And if that doesn’t cut it for proof, go read my blog. I stand behind what I have said. I’m not sure how I could be much more “level” in my comments than I already am.

BTW – making broad, sweeping statements about male (or female) behavior has nothing to do with being “direct” in my book.

55. 55
Margo

@#54, Are you kidding me?? Am I actually reading something this twisted??

“Saint” Stephen says:
ladies (I mean the slutty ones) contributed to erectile dysfunction men are now suffering from, so why complaining?”

This is good. This is soooo good.

Ok, I get it. It’s the “sluts’” fault. They contributed to ED. It’s their fault many men’s penises don’t work.

ROFLMAO!!!!!

56. 56
saint stephen

@Goldie #52
All these things can change. As people age, they change, sometimes in unexpected directions. Not to mention your life partner may con you into thinking he’s all those things, when in fact he’s not.
Goldie- From the best of my knowledge people don’t change, at least not the way you think they do. my grand mum is a workaholic while she was young, now she’s pretty much aged still a workaholic (although now she doesn’t work for money).
Goldie you really amaze me how possible could someone con you into believing he’s those things i mentioned? i mean i don’t know about you but i can smell a workaholic a mile away. i might not be intelligent but i’m intelligent enough to know someone who is, i have a good sense of humor to perceive someone who is funny and can make me laugh.

Goldie said
Sorry, but the rightwing talk about sucking it up and sticking it out in a marriage no matter what makes me see red. Here comes something I’m not very comfortable sharing on this blog – my FIL was an alcoholic. MIL, a smart, independent, hard-working woman, sucked it up and stayed with him for 40-some years, till he drank himself to death. Sometimes she would complain to the kids (us) about how she hated his guts, and then she’d go on living with him, I guess because she thought she didn’t have a choice. Way I see it, he robbed her of the only life she had. So don’t you dare tell people like her to “suck it up and deal with it”. You haven’t been in other people’s shoes, you cannot know the hell they may be living in

Goldie this is why people date. whatever red flags you see, might have seen it in the course of dating, but sometimes people tend to ignore it because they have become emotional bonded and head into marriage with a mindset that things will change for the better, but then it gets no better and as the bonding wears off the red flags becomes more conspicuous.
this is why i often advice ladies to date with their head clear (relationship void of sex) and you will see all the red flags too early to know if you can put up with those shitty attitude in the offing.
my dad is not a womanizer and has never noticed any woman other than my mum… can he turn into a flirt now? don’t think so. my dad doesn’t take alcohol, neither do i, can stress and marital problems make me develop a drinking habit? certainly not.
If your FIL is a drunkard then he must have been drinking while they were dating, that wasn’t an attitude he developed on a whim, nonetheless she went ahead to marry him. meaning she was fully prepared for the consequences of her decision… and that is why Marriage is for better for worse. I truly respect your MIL for respecting the marital vows she took… though most people might think her a loser for sticking it through.
If you know you ain’t ready for the marriage drama, then stick to and be contented with LTR, so whenever the soup gets sour you can easily opt out. but please don’t go take the *for better for worse* vow and when it gets to the worse part, you scram. if you do this you have broken your marital Vows, except Vow which is synonymous with oath, means little or nothing to you.
If your MIL has opt out of the marriage Is there any guarantee that she will be happier or find someone else great? Not likely… sometimes the devil you know is better than the angel you don’t know.

57. 57
saint stephen

Please i apologize for my incessant use of the Word ”Slut”.
I take them all back.. perhaps i wasn’t schooled enough in the *Vocabulary* department like you all are. It won’t happen again.

58. 58
Bettina

Margo@56: I am speaking to St. Stephen in a way that I believe will get through to him. Hitting him on the head with a baseball bat will not, I assure you, and will make him resistant to the message–meaning, he’ll just start tuning out. He is coming from a different world altogether. You have to be willing to step into his shoes to communicate with him (or with anyone, really).

Nathan@55: Point taken.

59. 59
saint stephen

@Margo
Why are you always finding faults in every comment i make? and not only that, you keep trying to twist everyone’s mind against me, as if i was here lobbying for a contest or grand price.
i’m only trying to get my message across, sometimes i might unintentionally get my message across in a blunt manner.

Margo- i wish you every bit of luck in finding the great love of your life.

60. 60
saint stephen

@Bettina
Thanks a lot for the clarification, u’re Awesome- and No i didn’t take advantage of the suicidal girl, i never had sex with her.
I dunno but maybe i shouldn’t have used the word *Date* (i used it for lack of proper term), and now i understand that in your context date goes in hand with sex. Blame it on my poor grammatical expression.

61. 61
Bettina

St. Stephen: Just put yourself in the other person’s shoes and think about how you are behaving toward them. Is it kind? You might find that you are using each other. That’s OK, but you aren’t better than they are if you’re both doing the same thing. If you think certain behaviors are wrong, they would be wrong for whoever does them, whether a man or a woman.

62. 62
saint stephen

@Helen
i’m no Asian.

63. 63
Lance

I read her article and thought it was a little naive. First off, what demographic is she talking about that is “whoring it up” and being the sluttiest? Singles in their early 20′s or 30-something divorcees? There’s going to be a big difference in the dating values between those two groups. Obviously, the younger demo who spends more time in bars and clubs will appear to be sluttier than what she’s used to…because those people are partying and quick sex is what the partiers do. And there’s nothing wrong with that. My guess is she just needs to spend more time among social groups with her same values.

Don’t look in bars and clubs for a mate if you don’t want the quick sex set of values that comes with it. When I’m in relationship mating mode, I look in the appropriate social circle or hit up match.com. It’s easy to find LTR minded guys and gals there.

64. 64
saint stephen

@Bettina
Could you care to be more constructive in your criticism? I never said certain types behaviors was wrong.. if i openly express my displeasure in something doesn’t make it wrong. it only means is not my kind of thing. if i detest gays does it make them wrong? at least not to them and others who care.
I never said dating was wrong, i never even said having sex was wrong, maybe you need to re-read my posts.
Should i have let the girl go through with the suicide when i know that by merely been with her for a period of time that could be averted?
Non of us used each other. To me i was only helping a friend go through a trying period of her life.

65. 65
Margo

@Lance #64, I agree with your last paragraph. I have a friend who just got played, she met the guy in a bar. Despite being told better, she continues to hang in and go to bars to meet men. Fact is, deep down she probably doesn’t think she can do much better.

Women please stay out of the bars if you want to meet quality men.

66. 66
Margo

Stephen, what Bettina is trying to tell you in post #62 is that you shouldn’t judge other people for doing things if you are doing the very same thing. For instance, your comment about not wanting a serious relationship with a woman that gives you sex too easily. Well, if she gives it up easy and early, you are participating in the act with her, so you are doing the same thing! Understand? That means if she’s a slut, so are you. So, why would she then be underserving of a serious relationship with you?? This is called the double-standard in dating, and it stinks.

You’re not the only man who think like this, there are others on this very blog who subscribe to the very same stinking, hypocritical thinking.

67. 68
Goldie

@ St Stephen #57:

See, this is why no one likes to share personal info. Never did I ever say she was “a loser”. And on that note, I’m going to end my part of this conversation.

Personally I think that marriage was born as a religious institution, when everyone planned on living forever, and whatever bad things happened in our brief life span on Earth, did not matter in the grand scheme of things. Hence the vows. Well it appears that we are, in fact, not going to live forever, that this is the only life we get, so I say each of us, for the most part of that life, deserves to be happy, and has an obligation to ensure he or she is not making anyone unhappy. But this goes beyond the scope of this thread.

68. 69
Still Looking

Is there a causal connection between having sex early in a relationship and a man losing interest in the woman?

- Some men have a double-standard and will lose respect for a woman he now considers “loose”
- Some men will have performance issues and are too embarrassed to see the woman again.
- Some men will lose interest because the sex wasn’t very good
- Some men will lose interest because they were only hanging around long enough to have sex and are now off to the next conquest.
- Some men will find the sex fantastic, want more, and develop a LTR assuming all the other criteria (personality, looks, compatibility, etc.) are met.
- Some men will find the sex fantastic, want more, and eventually the relationship fizzles.

EMK recommends no sex until in a committed relationship but the outcomes are similar:
- Some men will agree to a committed relationship, not because they want an LTR but because they are manipulating the women and really just want sex.
- Some men will agree to a committed relationship, they are truly interested in an LTR, the sex is fantastic and the relationship either continues or fizzles.
- Same as above but the sex is lousy and the relationship quickly fizzles.
- Some men will not want to hang around long enough without sex (too many other options) or are unwilling to agree to a committed relationship (commitment phobes, feeling pressured/manipulated, etc.) and the budding relationship fizzles as soon as the men realize no commitment means no sex.

I understand some men and women don’t want to rush into sex but I fail to see a causal link between the timing of the sex and the likelihood of establishing a long-term relationship.  An argument can be made that a “good man” will be willing wait.  An argument can also be made that many good men will head for the exit too early.  Furthermore, since the vast majority of relationships don’t lead to the altar, aren’t the women more likely to be hurt if the relationship ends later rather than sooner (because of sexual incompatibility or men manipulating women just to have sex)?

The various scenarios I presented were just the ones that popped into my head.  I’m sure there are many more.  My view is simple – a man will continue to see a woman as long as she is able to hold his interest.  For the right woman I’m willing to wait.  For others, maybe fantastic sex would keep me around until I fell in love.

EMK – One question if you don’t mind.  You dated for years and finally met your wife.  I have no idea, and don’t want to know when you first had sex with her, but let me toss a hypothetical your way — If you slept with your wife before you entered into a committed/exclusive relationship with her, wouldn’t you still have found her the most perfect woman in the world for you and you would still have married her??

1. 69.1
Evan Marc Katz

I usually don’t take questions here, but briefly, here’s the idea behind the sexual double standard.

Men don’t value something if it comes too easily.

If you sleep with us on Date 1, that’s a pretty strong indicator that you’ve slept with plenty of other people on Date 1. And most men don’t like to think of their future wives as “easy”, even though, intellectually, we can acknowledge that there’s nothing wrong with a woman who enjoys sex for sex’s sake.

Basically, men like a challenge – to pursue you, to win you over, to charm you, to work our way around the bases and accomplish what few men have accomplished before. And the more you slow us down and give us the opportunity to get to know you platonically, the more reasons we’ll discover that we want you to be our girlfriend.

If you sleep with me on Date 1, I’ve climbed the mountain too fast and haven’t discovered what makes you amazing personally. The thrill of the chase is gone.

I’m not talking about whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. I’m saying that it’s real and that your best bet to a relationship is to delay sex. If you can handle sleeping with perfect strangers and hoping it works out, go ahead. No judgment here.

Oh, and my wife and I? About four weeks. But I was the one who wouldn’t have sex, because that’s how I roll.

69. 70
Still Looking

EMK@71

Wow, great explanation!  The thrill of the chase for great sex, followed by great sex, could certainly keep both parties interested long enough to see if all the other factors line up.

I’m still not sure how the exclusive relationship requirement impacts this.  Seems like there’s a chance of X% of men heading for the door too early b/c of the time required (2 months?  3 months?) before most men are willing to enter into an exclusive relationship.  Then again, I don’t have any idea how leery most men are…..blog readers??

70. 71
Gem

As Evan said, “Men don’t value something that comes too easy.”

He’s basically saying (in a more gentle fashion) what other men feel about women willing to jump into bed too soon. Some men harshly judge them as ‘sluts’, some don’t label their character with a name, but still, on some psychological level, thier stock goes down. It’s still a judgement that lowers her value and the chances of him wanting to pursue her.

If women want to have easy and meaningless sex for fun, go for it. But if you want a LTR, and you KNOW that sex too soon can ruin the whole thing, what is the rush???

71. 72
Margo

I will remind Evan that he did say that if a man really likes a woman, it doesn’t matter how early they have sex.

1. 72.1
Evan Marc Katz

And I will remind Margo of all the men who’ve slept with women on the first date and never called them again. I personally work very hard NOT to be a hypocrite, to understand intellectually that if I am willing to slut around that I can’t judge her for doing the same thing. I am quite sure that the vast majority of men don’t work as hard. And it’s certainly a lot safer to make him wait before you hop into bed than if you hop into bed first and discover whether you like each other later.

72. 73
nathan

Oh man, I’m so on a different wavelength than Evan on this. Which is good because it offers the women here another male take to complicate things

First off, the the longest relationship I have been in included sex on the third date. It really never crossed my mind that she was “easy” or that she was someone who “slept” around. What happened happened naturally. There wasn’t any excessive flirting or enticing going on on either end because neither of us were like that.

Second, I despise chasing and pursuing. Absolutely despise it. Perhaps it works well for some men and women, but I also find that for a lot of others, it seems to be a series of games and push-pull challenges that create a lot of frustration if things don’t work out.

Third, if I start seeing someone (i.e. it’s gone beyond a few dates), I tend to stop looking at other “options.” In other words, even if we haven’t decided yet that we’re going to be exclusive, I treat it as exclusive so that I can get a clearer picture of who she is. This is probably not something many people do these days, given how much date juggling seems to go on. But I find it a hell of a lot easier, and I guess more respectful in my mind, to focus on one woman if we’ve made it past the intro. stage.

Now, with all that said, I actually have mostly chosen to delay sex beyond the first few dates. Not because I think it’s wrong, but because it just hasn’t felt right for me. And I also don’t find that I have enough of a connection after a single date, or even two usually, to even consider becoming that intimate with a woman. The few times I have rushed in were in situations where both of us basically weren’t in a position to have a committed relationship – i.e. were on the rebound and a bit desperate. However, with the Ex I mentioned above, we both commented on how it felt early to being sleeping together, but at the same time, it felt right.

I do think a lot of this comes down to intentions though. Evan and I might differ on approach to some degree, but we both have had the intent of finding a woman to stay with, grow with, develop a life together with. If you have that kind of intention driving you, then you’ll probably treat sex differently, regardless of when it ends up happening.

73. 74
Lance

EMK, I respectfully disagree with you in #71. Men value women, sex, and relationships exactly how they value them regardless of the speed of sex. It can come fast, it can come slow, but that won’t affect our long (or short) term perspective. The reason why men go for quick sex is BECAUSE they’re looking for quick sex and they’re in that mode. Don’t try to force an LTR on a guy who’s in quick sex mode. That doesn’t work. We don’t de-value women because she “allowed” us to sleep with her on the 4th date vs. the 1st. That’s silly.

Bottom line is, if you (women) want an LTR with a guy, look for a guy who’s looking for an LTR also. There’s a clear difference and if you ask the right questions, it’s easy to suss out.

What guys should do is examine what mode they’re in and honestly say if they’re in a quick sex phase or truly in an LTR phase. Once they embrace this, they can act accordingly and only go after chicks who are in the same mode.

When I’m in quick sex mode, I hit on chicks in bars and clubs because that’s where women are looking for the same. When I want an LTR, I go through my social circles and also do searches on match.

74. 75
Bettina

I saw a Latina comedienne in a club once. She said that every guy she knew was looking to marry a virgin. Even as he was doing everything he could to make sure that there were none left before he did.

75. 76
Helen

nathan and Lance, I am so glad to read your comments. Even if you may come from different perspectives, you’re united in not endorsing and not living by the double standard.  Thank you.

76. 77
Soul Sister

I have been enjoying reading this blog and where it has been going since I, ah, stirred up the pot a little bit with the help of the other ladies on here!

Here is the bottom line: we all know there is a double standard when it comes to sex in this country. We all also know it has been this way since the beginning of time and we are not going to change it. In 1983 I stood up in my sex ed class in college and started a debate on one night stands and “what is good for the goose is good for the gander”.  It was no different than how this blog went, but the professor gave me an A for having the guts to get up and argue it.   For the record, I don’t do one night stands, but only because I don’t get physcial satisfaction, NOT because I think it makes me a slut!

But for the men on here, if you try to walk in our shoes about this, yes, we know it is what it is, but it is still unfair. And every once in a while a woman is going to stomp her little foot and say “not fair dammit!”  and then when she calms down she will go back to being the gate keeper because it is what it is.  And once in a while she will just go for it because she wants to and if she screws up the opportunity for a relationship, hopefully she is mature and self confident enough to be ok with that.  Make note gentlemen, if she does have sex with you on the first date, there is a high chance she is telling you she does not see YOU as an LTR potential either!

@ saint stephen, please take this in the spirit it is intended.  When I was in my 20s the world was very black and white to me.  30 yrs later there is so much gray that I know judgement on others is a waste of time and energy. You are welcome to your beliefs, but I guarantee they will change over time.

@Moe D #42 – thank you for a thoughtful comment on why you think the men are experiencing ED issues.  I appreciate it and the next time it happens (it will!) I will try to not make it about me

@ Still Looking #70 – great comment and i agree in many ways with you. Judgement is often suspended when the right person is there, regardless of the timing. Or it doesn’t matter sometimes if the right person is there because of the bad timing.

@Evan #71 – point taken. Thanks for sharing personal information. I love your blog and did buy your eBook, and I think my “so far” success with my current boyfriend has a lot to do with you. I had no father, brothers, or male influence in my life, your information on what is going on in the male brain is invaluable to someone like me.

@all the women on this blog, thank you for picking up the banner.  Sometimes being a woman is very difficult in a man’s world, but I love being a woman and wouldn’t have it any other way.  And I love my sisters!!

@Nathan, Saint Stephen, and the other men, thank you for having the courage and interest to keep the debate going and give us some male perspective, even if we didn’t like some of it!

Fun topic!!  Now I gotta go get some of that sex…and I don’t give a shit what he thinks as long as he takes care of me, ha ha!!

77. 78
saint stephen

@Bettina or anyone who can.
Sorry this is completely off topic… could you please direct me how to insert emoticon. Couldn’t find it in the Menu.

78. 79
Karl R

Soul Sister said: (#29)
“men in their 40′s and 50′s are having issues getting erections or finishing. WTF?”

There are a lot of causes for erectile dysfunction. According to this link, there are 15 physical causes (including high blood pressure, obesity and diabetes) and four psychological causes (including depression, stress and fatigue).

There is a substantial overlap with the causes of delayed ejaculation (which includes inability to orgasm during sex), according to this link.

One cause of delayed ejaculation which I’ve personally experienced (though it’s not mentioned in that link) is condom use. I’m unwilling to have casual sex without a condom, so I simply put up with it until I was in a serious relationship.

“Is it us? Is it you?  Is it the water?”

It’s not the water. It might be the man. It might be the woman. It might be some combination.

If the woman isn’t particularly participating in the sex act (for example, lying on her back, trying to decide whether to paint the ceiling beige), it’s going to be a contributing factor. However, in my experience, it’s more likely that the issue is occuring on the man’s side.

Women aren’t much different than men in this regard. If a woman is mentally preoccupied worrying about other things, it’s going to take a lot longer for her to become aroused. If a man is preoccupied with other things, he’s unlikely to maintain an erection (until he starts focusing on sex again). It’s the same for both sexes … it’s just more externally obvious for men.

Goldie said: (#44)
“What I dislike, though, is when people use their ED [...] as an excuse to pull a disappearing act the next morning.”

Has any man actually verbally expressed that “excuse” to you?

If not, why are you convinced that ED was his reason for disappearing?

Seriously, that’s as ridiculous as me bailing on a woman because I don’t have a six-figure income. How would that be to my benefit? I still won’t have a six-figure income in my next relationship. I might bail because it’s clear that the woman wants a wealthier man. It’s more likely that I’ll bail for an entirely different reason.

If a man has a performance issue (even if it’s an occasional, situational issue), it’s likely to eventually occur in all of his relationships. He gains nothing by bailing when it happens.

Evan said: (#71)
“If you sleep with me on Date 1, [...] The thrill of the chase is gone”
“Basically, men like a challenge – to pursue you, to win you over, to charm you, to work our way around the bases and accomplish what few men have accomplished before.”

This may be a motivation for many men, but it’s certainly not universal.

If a woman starts playing hard-to-get, I’m more likely to assume that she wants someone else to get her.

Evan said: (#71)
“the more you slow us down and give us the opportunity to get to know you platonically, the more reasons we’ll discover that we want you to be our girlfriend.”

I agree with this statement, which is why I usually don’t rush into sex. I already know that I like sex. I’m dating the woman to find out whether I like her. Having sex delays the process of getting to know her better.

79. 80
Erinlee

@Soul Sister~
You make a good point about the one night stand thing.  Not only may it turn the guys away from a LTR, but the women as well.  However, if you are interested in one night stands you are probably not to keen on a LTR right now anyway.  If a LTR happens to come about from a one night stand or after sleeping w/ someone on the first date, it was probably chance and a whole lot of luck.  (I’ve been there)  My one night stand at the age of 22 turned into a 3 year relationship.  I had never met him before and we hit it off like I’ve never experienced before.  Even though it didn’t work out, we had 3 great years of fun and love together.  Too much chemistry here, not enough compatibility, we loved like crazy and fought like crazy.  One night stands are definitely a thing of the distant past now for me, I value myself too much to be giving that away.
In my twenties I have always found my boyfriend’s when I have told myself I’m NOT looking.  When I met the boyfriend at age 22, a girlfriend and myself had just promised each other a summer of being single and girl fun.  Now at the beginning of this year, after being single for a year, dating a guy for 6 months and then having him REJECT me (that’s for Jack), I decided I needed to sit out of the game for awhile.  Just date for fun, meet a lot of people and have a great funfilled year.
So in February I met a guy at the bar but through mutual friends.  He asked me out and I said yes, of course, great start to the dating game.  I told him on our first date that I was only interested in dating casually for now.  So after a couple dates and a couple nights hanging out with friends, I was getting to know him but didn’t think I liked him in a romantic way.  1 month later, he was still pursuing me, we were spending more time together, even though this was not initially what I had wanted.  I decided that there was a lot more to him then I had originally thought.  He said he was going to win my heart over by the end of the Summer and he had me hooked at the beginning of April.
He was too good of a potential partner to walk away from, just so I could ‘date around’.  So from personal experience, I know that meeting the right person can completely change what you want at the time.  Had I turned down the second or third or maybe even fourth date, I would not have gotten to know him well enough to see what a great person he was.  Now, only 5 months in, I’m realizing more and more everyday just how lucky I am to have found him, before some other lucky young lady did
My point is, when you first meet someone, everything is so delicate.  You can only see what they have shown you, so one small mistake could be taken as a much larger deal than it actually is, because you are building your perspective about this person as you go.  When we think about ourselves, and how we want other’s to view us, we have our whole life to look back on and say hey, this is who I am, this is what I have done, this is what I have to offer.  This new person, though, does not have that luxery, aside from what you tell/show them and what other’s who know you say, they only know who you are from today forward.  They do not have the in depth perspective that you have of yourself, or others close to you who have known you for years.  It’s amazing how different you can think about someone from date one compared to the end of year 1.
The BF and I have a lot to learn about each other, hopefully it will continue to enhance our relationship and love of one another.  I’m so thankful I stuck around long enough to see the ‘real’ person underneath what people initially ‘see’ when they look at him.  I know, I’ve found a diamond in the rough.  It’s so easy to make mistakes early on or miscontrue someone’s true intentions.  I think it’s worth avoiding the simple mistakes, LIKE, sleeping with someone on the first date.  It might not make or break it, but most likely, will decrease the chances of something greater developing.

80. 81
Erinlee

Saint Stephen:   just use these symbols(minus the spaces in between)  to form emoticons     smiley face  =   :  )
winking face  =   ;  )
those are the only ones I know!

81. 82
saint stephen

Evan said
I personally work very hard NOT to be a hypocrite, to understand intellectually that if I am willing to slut around that I can’t judge her for doing the same thing. I am quite sure that the vast majority of men don’t work as hard.

Evan Marc Katz
I Do not think Men are hypocritical for bailing on a woman if sex comes too easily, just as I wouldn’t think the same of women wanting equality while expecting Men to make the chase, initiate dates and still pay for them… is biological for a man not to want a promiscuous woman and absolutely nothing to do with hypocrisy or double standard.
Okay let’s call a spade a spade. if a Man is expected to make the chase, initiate dates ,pay for them and still be responsible for keeping contacts  is it not only fair if he wants lady who is worth the time effort and resources? And even though I don’t do that, still I do not hold it against a man who took to his heels after having his way too “easily” and probably assumes the lady is promiscuous. (Ladies don’t take it personal, I’m only shedding an insight of a Man’s Mentality). Believe me Most men would cringe at the idea of having a woman who had gone through so many men.
The Male brain is very imaginative and can frequently pictures things and events , that would explain why men can comfortably unclothe a fully clothed woman (in their brain), So the last thing a man would want running through his brain is the thought of many men previously fondling and banging his wife to be.
Evan no matter how hard you work not to view women who get down easily with you, for most Men it has been ingrained in them to view those women as easy *Lay* and unsuitable wife or LTR material.
I am sure many men share in this thought even though some won’t openly admit it.

@Erinlee
thanks!

82. 83
Bettina

SS@85: I think your info on human biology is incorrect, and you have completely left off the social reasons/conditioning that would lead to the differences in male/female mating and dating behavior. So you might do some thinking about that.

Also, I meant to add–about the suicide attempt. We should never try to intervene in a suicide attempt unless we are trained to do so. These are very challenging situations and the end result could have been the opposite of what you intended. If someone is threatening violence against him/herself or another person, the correct response is to call 911, security, or law enforcement.

83. 84
Goldie

Cool, Karl is back, now we’re going to finally get this cluster untangled

Goldie said: (#44)
“What I dislike, though, is when people use their ED [...] as an excuse to pull a disappearing act the next morning.”
Has any man actually verbally expressed that “excuse” to you?
If not, why are you convinced that ED was his reason for disappearing?

I am not. I said in #44 that it was a quote from Soul Sister (the little piece that you left out). I have no personal experience to back this statement up. The only man who pulled a disappearing act on me, has so much serious personal stuff going on, he probably couldn’t explain the reason for disappearing if he tried. (Actually, now that I think of it, he did try, and couldn’t.) What I personally experienced multiple times, was being pushed into a sort-of LTR (I cannot call that thing LTR) because the man couldn’t perform with a condom. People would actually come out and say “I can’t wear this thing, so let’s be exclusive… but I don’t want to complicate things, so no obligations” – as in, no plans on spending time together outside of the bedroom, none of the usual couples stuff except for being exclusive. First guy who offered me this, actually got away with it, because he was an old friend and I cut him a lot of slack… but not anymore. I didn’t like this arrangement, and am not going to have it with anyone again! Don’t care if they can “wear the thing” or not – I’ve got to look out for myself first – and I know I’ll be wasting my time in a relationship(?) like that.

If a man has a performance issue (even if it’s an occasional, situational issue), it’s likely to eventually occur in all of his relationships. He gains nothing by bailing when it happens.

Maybe he’s just embarrassed to look her in the eye the next day, and holding out hope (false or not) that things will go better with someone new.

84. 85
nathan

SS85 – “Evan no matter how hard you work not to view women who get down easily with you, for most Men it has been ingrained in them to view those women as easy *Lay* and unsuitable wife or LTR material.”

“Ingrained” as a result of hundreds of years of patriarchal social conditioning suggesting that men are free to have as many partners during a lifetime as they please, but women cannot (without being shamed and discarded).  Please go do some research on the history of social conditioning around gender.

And while you’re at it, perhaps also do some research into modern brain science, especially around brain plasticity. People can change their lives, drastically sometimes, because our brains are a hell of lot more flexible and changeable than we think they are. Those who repeat the same negative patterns over and over again just haven’t learned how to break though them, and/or don’t have the support to actually try and do something else.

The same thing goes for how we think about the world. Everyday, you choose to believe whatever it is you believe about men, women, relationships, and life in general. Those beliefs might be completely reinforced (or even forced upon you in some cases) by the people and culture around you, but they are not some final truth that can never change. If enough counter evidence appears before you, you might change you mind. Or that evidence might just make your current views stronger, depending upon how you see it. But in any case, how we think is probably more a matter of choice as it is how we are “wired.”

If I consider my own views around gender and relationships, they are greatly different today than when I was in my late teens and early 20s. Back then, I had a vague desire for equality in a relationship, but none of the specifics behind that really were present. Furthermore, I had next to no experience in actually taking care of a relationship, being that equal partner, and understanding, for example, that we all make mistakes, and that really loving someone means a lot more than some abstract notions about what’s right and wrong.

Stepping off the lecture podium now. Best of luck to you.

85. 86
sharon

@ 85
lol because women never picture men naked or with the ex girlfriends. I think the problem with too many and too soon is that there are no clear cut rules. Some guys would only be comfortable with a women that waited for marriage some its under 10 some its cool as long as its 50% of their tally.
Look it for our perspective, I could really be into you and feel it was right and except your offer only to have you reject me tomorrow because I was feeling something you weren’t. I’m not a mind reader I’m taking you at your word. if I woman dated for three months before having sex and had two relationships a year starting at 16 (the average age women have sex) she would have 28 partners by 30. If half of those guys were only around for a sex and bailed the next day her number could be closer to 42.
So in your expert opinion how many are too many how soon is too soon?

86. 87
Karl R

Goldie said: (#87)
“Cool, Karl is back, now we’re going to finally get this cluster untangled”

I don’t do miracles.

Goldie said: (#87)
“I said in #44 that it was a quote from Soul Sister (the little piece that you left out).”

Reread Soul Sister’s post. You weren’t quoting her or even accurately paraphrasing her. I left out that little piece because I was trying to avoid nitpicking the small stuff.

Goldie said: (#87)
“Maybe he’s just embarrassed to look her in the eye the next day, and holding out hope (false or not) that things will go better with someone new.”

Do you have a female friend who has a horribly negative body image? Does she leave a man because he’s seen her naked and she’s embarassed to look him in the eye again … or does she avoid the whole issue by not dating in the first place?

If the man is that humiliated, he’s not out repeating the experience with additional women.

s. stephen said: (#85)
“The Male brain is very imaginative and can frequently pictures things and events, [...] So the last thing a man would want running through his brain is the thought of many men previously fondling and banging his wife to be.”

I have an above-average ability to visualize things, and I’ve never had this supposed problem.

I don’t want to visualize my fiancée having sex with other men, so I don’t put in the effort to do so. I am aware of a number of her previous boyfriends, and I’ve even met some of them. But I’m not trapped in obsessive thoughts about what she’s done in the past.

s. stephen said: (#85)
“Most men would cringe at the idea of having a woman who had gone through so many men.”

“Most men”? How have you arrived at that conclusion?

I realize that we hang out in different social circles, but most men that I know don’t expect women to hold to a different sexual standard than they do.

When I’ve had sex with a woman (whether it was a brief fling, a longer fling, or a serious relationship), I don’t believe that I’ve “gone through” her.

Our words shape our thoughts. Perhaps the problem is how you choose to view sex (and sex partners).

I’m sure that there are other men who share your perspective. However, I have not seen any evidence that they represent a majority.

“Most men” are not still living in the 1950s.

87. 88
Bettina

Nathan@88: No, no!! Please!! Step back onto the lecture podium!! That was great. One of the best things I’ve ever read on here.

88. 89
saint stephen

Bettina said
I think your info on human biology is incorrect, and you have completely left off the social reasons/conditioning that would lead to the differences in male/female mating and dating behavior. So you might do some thinking about that.

Bettina- if that mentality (or Behavior) was due to social reasoning/conditioning, then i believe the western civilization ought to have completely eroded it.
Is it social reasons that conditioned women into having a preference for tall men? No! is because it makes them feel feminine, secured, even though we now live in era of guns and deadly weapons, yet they still held on to their beliefs of feeling safe and feminine with only tall men. that trait is to me biological not social.
It is in a man’s inherent nature to hop from one female to another (also evident in animals), definitely not the other way round. few women may possess this trait, still exception doesn’t change the rule.
Many women would get turned off dating a man who behaves like a woman, likewise men dating a woman who behaves like a man (sexually).

89. 90
Helen

Sheesh, you men are confusing us.

On the one side we have Evan and Stephen, who state that if women sleep with men too easily, they tend to be devalued in men’s eyes.  On the other side we have nathan, Lance, and Karl R, who imply that men do not devalue women even if they sleep with them on the 1st date as opposed to the nth (where n>1).  Or in any case, do not hold women to a different standard than themselves.

So which is it?  Or is there genuinely no consensus among men on this issue?

1. 90.1
Evan Marc Katz

Great point, Helen. There isn’t consensus on this issue, but there is this:

I don’t speak for myself when I write this blog; not necessarily, anyway. I try to speak for the majority of men, based on my observations about how the world works.

So if you want to know if men devalue you for sleeping with men on the first few dates, then sleep with a bunch of men on the first few dates and see how many stick around. I’m predicting it will be very few. And just because Karl, Nathan, Lance, or I would try not to judge you for it, it doesn’t mean that most men operate this way. I try to give you the perspective that works for the greatest number of people. Obviously, there will be many exceptions to any rule.

But I think it’s a good rule to make a guy wait until he’s your boyfriend, and I won’t back down from that.

90. 91
Helen

Thanks, Evan.  I won’t take your recommended course of action, as I’m married, but it is good advice for women who are searching for an LTR.

Gaining these perspectives makes me grateful to be married, because it’s clear that dating today is an absolute minefield.  So many rules, both self-imposed and imposed by society, and yet so many exceptions to the rules too.

91. 92
Sharon

@ 91

Actually primarily monogamous mammals both females and males stray.See mating pattern of wolves

In groups like apes its thought that while there is a alpha male females will mate with several males. It’s thought that this behavior encourages multiple males to assume the offspring is their thus if any shift in the power construct changes she’s covered. In humans its been suggested that the fickleness of female orgasm as well the tendency to vocalize more evolved from the tendency to mate with several males in rapid succession also to disguise parentage.

It’s frequently excuse sited my men that there is scientific evidence that men are more sexual. But there a limited studies that support this claim. But it is a convenient justification so despite the lack of evidence its widely held as truth.

92. 93
Lance

EMK and everyone else, I blogged a response to this if you care to read it:

Men don’t devalue women based on the speed that she gives it up (“she’s not a challenge”), they become disinterested because they KNOW the match isn’t a good one after the sex. Once you’ve slept with someone, you pretty much know if he/she is going to be a good LTR companion. Not 100%, but damned close. This is why, IMO, it’s better to have the sex early rather than invest 2-3 months into establishing a LTR, then have sex, then realize you’re a poor match. Huge waste of time.

There’s another way for guys to find out this info early, though, without actually having to sleep with the gal. That’s my next post.

1. 93.1
Evan Marc Katz

Thanks for the response, Lance. Naturally, I think you’re missing three important things:

1) Some men DO devalue women for having sex. Hell, commenters here were already saying that they did, so I’m not sure how you can say they don’t exist. I don’t necessarily agree with them, but they’re real men who account for a portion of the population.

2) You don’t know if a match is a good one based on second date sex. In fact, you don’t know SHIT about someone at that point. You don’t know how she is when you’re both more comfortable in bed. You don’t know how she is in times of crisis. You don’t know how she is with her family. Literally, the ONLY thing you know is whether you thought the sex was mindblowing the first time out. And if that is the primary criteria for whether a relationship proceeds – she puts out quickly and it’s INCREDIBLE – then, yes, you know if she’s a good LTR comparison. But frankly, that’s such a shallow worldview that my seven month old daughter couldn’t drown in it.

3) I don’t suggest that people wait 2-3 months to have sex. I suggest that people wait as long as it takes for each party to decide that the relationship is exclusive. So she doesn’t fuck you, Lance, and then go home to see you on Match.com. I think that’s fair, don’t you? The truth is, if a man is excited about a woman, he will have no trouble saying after 4 weeks (like I did), “I want to be exclusive with you”, and then they can start sleeping together. During those 4 weeks, they will be fooling around, doing everything BUT sleeping together, and have a decent sense of their physical chemistry.

Sorry dude. I love ya, but I think my way is far more female friendly – not to mention effective.

93. 94
Goldie

@ Karl #90:

Goldie said: (#87)
“I said in #44 that it was a quote from Soul Sister (the little piece that you left out).”
Reread Soul Sister’s post. You weren’t quoting her or even accurately paraphrasing her. I left out that little piece because I was trying to avoid nitpicking the small stuff.

OK I have gone and reread it… #33

“The other problem this issue brings up is that if this happens the first time I am with a man, even if we have gone out on several dates, I know there is a 50/50 chance I will hear from him again. Even if I am understanding, the man is either embarrassed, or he does not want the issue to be about him so he makes it about me, I didn’t turn him on enough, whatever. “

94. 95
saint stephen

@Karl R & Nathan
i think that the problem appears to be that the number of guys that tend to reason like you guys do are quite high in Minority and no amount of intellectual debate can change how men have been hard-wired to think.

News flash- things haven’t changed much since the 1950s and guess what Karl R, many women are still getting dumped for giving it up too early, so your claim that most men are evolved is a serious disservice to women looking to find love. yes men still pay for dates like the 1950s, and unlike men, women still feel insulted when called sluts. so whats the difference Karl R? what really changed?

I’m a realist, not an evolved man, hence i don’t like deceit…. telling ladies that they didn’t get blown away for giving it up too early thereby appearing cheap is like telling guys they wont get blown away for asking their date to partake or share in their first dating expense.
Just as women feel entitled for wanting their date pay for 1st and consecutive dates (even when not sure of the outcome).
So do men feel entitled for wanting a conservative woman even when they aren’t one.

Karl R Said
When I’ve had sex with a woman (whether it was a brief fling, a longer fling, or a serious relationship), I don’t believe that I’ve “gone through” her.
Good thing you don’t, but most men do and that certainly explains why they often disappear.
Karl R if you don’t, it only makes you one of the exceptions, not the rule.

95. 96
Sharon

So what is the number and how long?

96. 97
Bettina

97. 98
nathan

SS 100 – A few things. I didn’t say that my view is in the majority of men. All I know is that there is definitely not a consensus on the issue, as Evan pointed out. Some men totally believe in the “slut narrative” and others, like myself, don’t.

I think it’s fair to suggest to women that some men are going to treat them poorly, or consider them lesser, if they sleep with them early on. But you know what – they already know this. Many of the female commenters on here have already gone through such experiences, so they don’t need me or someone else telling them that it rarely happens. Because that’s not true. However, it’s very important, I think, to demonstrate that men aren’t a uniform bunch. That some of us think entirely differently about these kinds of issues.

As for things not having changed much since the 1950′s, a curious statement. Your examples don’t really constitute such a broad conclusion. And even the paying for initial dates has changed to some degree – just read the archives here for a few months.

One thing I will say is that the less people feel entitled, the better off our relationships tend to be. To me, it’s when your preferences turn into entitlements that all hell breaks loose.

Oh, and seriously, some of the statements you’re making sound like the kind of tripe that magazines like Psychology Today keep printing on dating and relationships. If I had a dollar for every article or study that basically uphold patriarchal models and oppressions as being “biologically supported,” I’d have been retired long ago.

98. 99
Lance

EMK, language buddy

For #1, there is a small percentage of guys who actually devalue women if she gives it up too fast, but I’d argue that there are just as many guys who devalue women because she waits too long. I also argue there are MORE guys who value women higher if she gives it up sooner rather than later. Also, what’s the emotional logic behind devaluing women based on how fast they give it up? She’s not a challenge? That makes no sense. Guys don’t care about challenging women. Even players like me find challenging women frustrating.

For #2, you gain an enormous amount of information based on 2 dates and spending the night with each other…I think easily enough to determine if it’s worth investing another couple of months. I can usually determine if someone is LTR worthy after a 2-3 hour conversation much less having sex, and I think a lot of your audience has at least as good an intuition as me.

Personally, I love chicks who are slutty, easy, and fast. Bring’em on!

99. 100
Sharon

@Nathan
You think we can broker a gender truce. I’ll gladly split the tab for dinner if I can be honest and open about my sex life without condescension! Lol In the mean time ladies keep the booty call numbers handy we gotta play coy with the next batch of potential bfs!

Seriously….I really don’t believe someone with such a hypocritical and misogynistic mindset if capable of loving or respecting any women. Evan I know you advocate working with what’s out there.If these guys truly are the majority we’re better off single. I just believe I owe to my sister and my cousins and the next generation of women to stick to my guns and no tolerate this kind of thinking.

100. 101
Still Looking

Like Lance, it doesn’t bother me at all if a woman has sex on the first or second date.  In fact, throughout my adult life the vast majority of women who became GFs were women I slept with on the first or second date.

While I enjoy the challenge & the chase, if it takes more than 2 or 3 dates I’ve usually lost interest.  One reason is the number of other fun/attractive women willing to go out.  The second reason is I don’t enjoy prudes.  If she is slow to hop in bed, it is likely that once there she is going to be more conservative than I prefer.  I’ve dated quite a bit and there has only been one who so captured my attention, that I would have waited months for.

1. 101.1
Evan Marc Katz

@Lance and Still: A woman is not a prude because she doesn’t sleep with you on Date 2. She’s not a prude because she doesn’t want you to be fucking another woman simultaneously. She’s merely practical.

101. 102
Margo

@105, what Sharon said. The truth of the matter is that any man who devalues a woman for doing what he does is a scumbag. Plain and simple.

Evan is right in that there are plenty of guys like that out there. As noted above, they’re scumbags.
Lance and Nathan are right in that there are more logical, decent, fair-minded guys out there as well. However, Evan is saying that women shouldn’t take the chance if they don’t want to get hurt as we don’t know ANYONE after 2 or 3 dates. You could have a conversation with the man on where he stands on the issue, but ladies be warned, he could also LIE to you. If you have known this person for some time that you are getting ready to sleep with, asking him up front should work better.

There is also a breed of men that will tell you they will view you as too easy if you sleep with them too soon, and they try and seduce you. Plying you with liquor, asking you to sleep in his bed and take off your clothes, kissing, and touching you. This is the type of man that is complete trash.

1. 102.1
Evan Marc Katz

Hey, Margo, for the umpteenth time, enough with the insults and slurs at men. A man isn’t a scumbag or trash for sleeping with a woman too soon and backing away afterwards.

If anything, he’s a hypocrite, a trait which is not altogether foreign to many women.

Essentially, you’re sensitive to the rhetoric of St. Stephen and Nathan and Michael, and yet you sound like the female version…but worse. Tone it down and people will take your statements more seriously.

102. 103
Margo

@Still Looking 106, if I were dating you and you weren’t willing to wait more than 3 dates for me us to have sex, then, yeah, you’d be what you are: Still Looking.

I fell prey to the seducer in my last paragraph in no. 8, but I was more volunteer than victim in that case because I had my own agenda and he did/does have severe mental issues. Having said that, it doesn’t discount the type of man he is. So the shady, seducer is out there!

103. 104
saint stephen

Bettina said #102

I suspect so too… like women initiating contacts and paying for our dates.

104. 105
Gem

Of the women who like to have sex early, if you are truly happy with your choice, and have no expectations for these guys (and why should you? They’re strangers), why do you care what they or anyone thinks of you?

Still Looking thinks a woman who doesn’t spread em’ by the third date is a prude. I don’t spread that fast and I’m not the least bit insulted or offended by him or any man who might bail when I don’t put out.

I don’t give anyone that much power over my emotions. I’m confident and secure with who I am and my choice not to have casual sex. If a man judges me because of that, all it means is he’s not my guy. It doesn’t hurt my feelings, nor does it make me want to stand up and defend myself and other women like me.

So why all the ‘up in arms’ for men who devalue easy women. Who cares?! If you are truly secure with your decisions, it wouldn’t matter what anyone thinks.

105. 106
saint stephen

@Margo #108
Men don’t care what you call or think of them… just as women equally don’t care when they want to be treated as equals… while compelling men to pay for dates and all the good packages that entails.

106. 107
Margo

“Saint” Stephen, only the chivalrous, honorable men enjoy taking a woman out for dinner and paying for a nice meal.
By the way, as far as I’ve read, there is nothing in the mail “biology” that dictates he find the female species undersirable based on the number of men she sleeps with. Would you like to show me different based on peer-reviewed research?

Evan, you have called men “jackasses” for indicating that they will sleep with a woman and not call her again. Similarly, if I a man’s behavior deems him a scumbag, that is what I’ll refer to him as. I will, however, respect your blog rules and not level names at your commenters.

107. 108
Gem

I think some men may behave slutty with some women and try to get them into bed fast because they know they don’t take the woman as potenial relationship material.

There are good-time girls, and there are relationship girls.

He screws the good-time girl (hey she’s willing), moves on, perhaps thinks her behavior was slutty but knows his was too. However, he owns it and doesn’t care that it was slutty, or care what the woman laying in the wet spot thinks of him. The both made the choice.

Same man meets woman whom he thinks could have potenial. He doesn’t even try to get her in bed on the first several dates because he doesn’t want her to think he’s only interested in sex. He wants to be a gentleman for this woman. He doesn’t want to blow his chances by looking like a creep.

So maybe there isn’t a double standard afterall for some men. They know and own when they are being slutty, because they just don’t care. And may behave differently with different women.

108. 109
Shouraku

Please excuse the crass language that I am about to use, but I have a very important point to make with it:

I wish that I could say that there aren’t women out there who sleep with a man early on because they have poor self control, are desperate, or cant say “no”, but unfortunately I am sure that there are. However, as a few other posters have mentioned, there are other reasons why a women may want to sleep with a man early on besides a lack of self discipline.

I am a third date sex person myself, and it is not because I just can’t stop myself from vigorously leaping upon every snake in the jungle. Honestly, like many grown women in this world, I own a vibrator and am more then capable of having the “self discipline” to hold off for many months/years if I had a good reason to do so. The reason that I choose not to is because I believe that sexual compatibility is a very important part of a LTR. Sex is so important to me that I have found it more helpful to discover in the first few weeks whether or not my partner and I will be able to develop sexual compatibility then wait months down the road when I have already become very attached (my personal experience, YMMV).

It always amazes me how people have no problem explaining to their date why they wont sleep with them, yet wont explain why they will. I don’t see the problem with saying to a man “I have been having an amazing time with you! We are compatible in so many ways. I would like to be intimate with you at some point and see if we are as compatible physically as we are in so many other wonderful areas. How do feel about this?”

So far, whenever I have polity explained this to a man, I have yet to hear “That can’t be it! It can’t be for a perfectly rational reason! It must be because you just can’t stop yourself from jumping my bones like a wild beast!”

I am actually rather curious to know if some of the men here have ever bothered to ask a women why she is interested in sleeping with them sooner then rather then later or if you just assume the worst and leave her because of her supposed lack of self discipline. Would it help clear things up if a woman gave you the explanation that I choose to give? (my question of course excludes instances where her reason would be unimportant to you either way, such as loss of “the chase”, or issues with visualizing her with many past partners, or wanting to wait for the initiation of a committed relationship).

109. 110
Margo

@Gem@115, Well, the man that recently deceived me did this with many women. and with him being as he is, trust me when I say that in choosing me, he would have chosen very well. He even informed me that I was relationship material, and was informed by me as well what I was looking for.

Any man who does what you describe in your post lacks character and is practicing deceit-just like what happened to me. That’s more than obvious.

I find Lance and Nathan’s perspective on the double-standard very refreshing and honorable.

110. 111
Karl R

s. stephen said: (#100)
“i think that the problem appears to be that the number of guys that tend to reason like you guys do are quite high in Minority”

You keep claiming that my attitude is a small minority, yet you have not offered one shred of proof to back up your claim.

Show me some factual evidence to back up your claim that “most men” agree with you.

s. stephen said: (#100)
“News flash- things haven’t changed much since the 1950s”

Interracial marriage is now socially acceptable.
Gay and lesbian relationships are becoming acceptable.
Women are expected to continue working after marriage.
Cohabitation has become commonplace.
It’s no longer shameful to have a child out of wedlock.
Shotgun weddings are a thing of the past.

Have you paid attention to what’s been happening for the last 60 years?

s. stephen said: (#100)
“many women are still getting dumped for giving it up too early, so your claim that most men are evolved is a serious disservice to women looking to find love.”

My brother proposed to his first wife 6 weeks after they met. Later that week, they discovered she was pregnant.

My brother is one of the least evolved men I know. He’s a bigot, a homophobe and a chauvanist.

In fact, if I believed that sleeping around on the first date would drive away the less evolved men, I would have to strongly recommend it as a dating strategy.

s. stephen said: (#100)
“So do men feel entitled for wanting a conservative woman even when they aren’t one.”

If a man is a sexually conservative man (like you), then he will be a poor match for a woman who is not sexually conservative. She loses nothing when he decides that she’s unacceptable.

If a man who is not sexually conservative believes that he deserves a woman who is sexually conservative (as you describe above), then he is a hypocrite. Do you really think women are sad to see those men go?

It’s not a question of whether women are getting blown off by some men because they had sex early. That’s clearly happening. The important question is whether they’re getting blown off (for that reason) by any men they would consider worthwhile.

However, I rarely hear men express a desire for sexually conservative women. More often, I more often hear men express a desire for “a lady in the streets, but a freak in the bed.” In other words, I want her to seem conservative when we’re at the office Christmas party. I want her to be a wild thing when we’re alone in the bedroom.

Evan Marc Katz said: (#94)
“So if you want to know if men devalue you for sleeping with men on the first few dates, then sleep with a bunch of men on the first few dates and see how many stick around. I’m predicting it will be very few.”

That’s hardly an informative test.

Regardless of what the women do (or avoid doing) sexually, very few first dates stick around for the long term. That’s just the nature of dating, regardless of whether you’re a man or a woman.

And as Gem (#115) so aptly pointed out, someone may hop into bed quickly because their date isn’t long-term relationship material. The sex didn’t cause the relationship to end. The lack of relationship potential caused the quickie sex.

Since I can’t tell whether having sex earlier or later will help/harm anyone’s long-term chances, I have always behaved in a way that was true to who I am. That’s also the advice that I’m inclined to give to others on this particular topic.

1. 111.1
Evan Marc Katz

Hey, Karl, appreciate your dissent, but I’m still not sold.

I think many men would be more likely to come back for a second date – and take her more seriously for a long-term relationship – if she didn’t sleep with him. I understand your point. I just disagree with it. Many first dates turn into second dates. The question is whether he’s got the incentive to get to learn about her platonically. If she sleeps with him right away, unfortunately, for many men, the answer is no. I still don’t think sleeping with someone because you feel like it is a good long-term strategy… UNLESS you can handle the consequences of sex without commitment. And from all the angry women, Margo, who talk about being DECEIVED by men, I would say it would behoove them to discover if he’s sincere and relationship oriented FIRST and take him out for a test-drive in bed SECOND.

111. 112
Still Looking

Margo @ 109

I think if you carefully read my post, you will see that I said I usually lose interest after 2 or 3 dates if we haven’t had sex and I listed two reasons.

IF a woman truly captures my heart/attention I’m willing to wait a long time.  That’s what I’m “still looking” for — a woman who truly captures my heart and my attention — with or without sex.

By definition, the majority of women I date will be average dates regardless of their attributes (if you only date men at least 6 feet tall, you’d probably consider a 6′ 2″ man an “average” date as far as height is concerned).

Since I’m looking for “the one” and dating is a numbers game, I’m not going on endless dates with the average date.  Instead the “average date” will have one date.

If a woman is above average in chemistry/compatibility, I’m going to ask her out again.  At the end of the second date I’m either more interested or less interested than I was at the end of the first date.

One of the many factors that will go into the gut-level decision (I don’t really analyze whether I’m going for a third date, I just know that I’d like to or I’m not really that interested) is the sexual attraction.

If I know sex is great or have reason to believe sex will be great, that is just another of many factors that would cause me to ask her out a 3rd or 4th time.  If I believe, based on her comments/actions, that she is a prude then I’m probably not going to feel that chemistry/compatibility is great and I will lose interest.  Then again, I could go out with you, find you the most beautiful and fascinating person I’ve ever met and would be quite willing to wait until you are ready to sleep with me.

EMK @ 107 – While there has been a sea change in what behavior would be considered prudish, “normal”, and promiscuous over the last 50 years, I do agree with you that a woman who doesn’t sleep with a man on a second date is not (necessarily) a prude.  I should have made it clear that “hopping into bed” includes some sexual activity, not necessarily a requirement for intercourse.

112. 113
saint stephen

@Margo
“Saint” Stephen, only the chivalrous, honorable men enjoy taking a woman out for dinner and paying for a nice meal.
Margo- just as only the conservative women enjoy preserving themselves to make sex (and their bodies) special for that special someone.

Margo said
By the way, as far as I’ve read, there is nothing in the mail “biology” that dictates he find the female species undesirable based on the number of men she sleeps with.
Sorry… you didn’t grasp my point- i said find her suitable for Marriage or LTR material.
Sure he’s gonna find her desirable if all he wants is to pull it off from where other guys stopped.

113. 114
saint stephen

@Gem #115
Spot on!!!… how did you know that? u’re such a rare Gem.

114. 115
Gem

Oh, goodie!! I do understand men a little.

I’m not an idiot, I swear, even though I spelled “potential’ wrong twice.

115. 116
saint stephen

Shouraku said
Sex is so important to me that I have found it more helpful to discover in the first few weeks whether or not my partner and I will be able to develop sexual compatibility then wait months down the road when I have already become very attached
What if all the Men you keep coming in contact with non of them is sexually compatible and your chase possibly ending up a mirage?…. Now i wouldn’t want to imagine what you must have probably gone through by then.

116. 117
Shouraku

@124 SS

I am sure that is possible for some people. However, of people that I have been intimate with in my life I would say that I have been compatible with or believed that I could develop compatibility with a little more then half. To be precise 7/12.

Are there women in this world who sleep with tons of men and never find someone hat they are compatible with? I am sure that there are some, but as people love to mention on this site, the exception does not disprove the rule.

117. 118
Margo

@ “Saint” Stephen no. 121, did you forget what you said below? And once again, biology has nothing to do with a hypocritical man’s mindset. The hypocritical man adopted this mindset by listening to and adopting the views of other hypocrits. Plain and simple.

“Saint” Stephen says in post. no 85….is biological for a man not to want a promiscuous woman and absolutely nothing to do with hypocrisy or double standard.

118. 119
saint stephen

@Karl R
You keep claiming that my attitude is a small minority, yet you have not offered one shred of proof to back up your claim.

Interracial marriage is now socially acceptable.
Show me some factual evidence to back up your claim that “most men” agree with you.
Karl R do you realize Evan is Dating coach and the stance he took was as result of what his female clients kept complaining about? and his judgement on men is based on the wealth of knowledge and experience he has gathered over the years?
Evan is someone who too often hears, knows and understand women’s plight, so his generalization about men would 100% be more reliable than yours.
If majority of this women kept whining about the men bailing after easily having their way with her, then our most safest, reliable, assumptions proves that men often don’t want loose women for a spouse, and they are often not evolved like you probably are.

Karl R said
Gay and lesbian relationships are becoming acceptable.
Women are expected to continue working after marriage.
Cohabitation has become commonplace.
It’s no longer shameful to have a child out of wedlock.
Shotgun weddings are a thing of the past.

I’m afraid Karl R that Non of those seemed to have militated against the male/female dating culture.
Men are still required to make the chase and pay for dates, women still feel insulted when labeled as sluts.
So Karl R you and others like you can keep living in your 21st century while the rest who account for a large portion of the society cling to their 1950s.

Karl R Said

What a Complete fallacy! Sexually conservative is never proportional to sexual inept. i bet you some sexually conservative ladies are more skillful than most promiscuous women in bed.some promiscuous men are equally lousy in bed, just as some sexually conservative guys who possesses
great sexuall prowess. the problem is would a sexually conservative guy want a promiscuous woman?…. but a sexually conservative woman might settle with a promiscuous man, if he’s willing to wait.

Karl R Said
If a man who is not sexually conservative believes that he deserves a woman who is sexually conservative (as you describe above), then he is a hypocrite. Do you really think women are sad to see those men go?
Karl R your question is it for real? is like you do live in dreamland and have refused to wake up to reality.
to answer your question yes they are sad… every where in real life, even right on this blog, on this topic, in this comment section you hear them whining and complaining…. you can also find out from Evan. i don’t even know why i’m answering, for all i know your question might just be rhetorical. And these men don’t care if they are labeled as hypocrites.. so long as they aren’t fighting against their innate pull.

It’s not a question of whether women are getting blown off by some men because they had sex early. That’s clearly happening. Theimportant question is whether they’re getting blown off (for that reason) by any men they would consider worthwhile.
yes these men were considered Worthwhile to these ladies, if not you won’t find these ladies sniveling.
This men are sometimes the Best-man when they meet a woman they consider worthwhile.

However, I rarely hear men express a desire for sexually conservative women. More often, I more often hear men express a desire for “a lady in the streets, but a freak in the bed.

Your statement might be true cos i do not know the world you live in…. however in my world Men do desire this conservative women, but wake up to reality-call that those desires are often elusive since this women don’t get down easily. so those desires you say they express are sometimes for consolatory purposes but not necessarily true.

119. 120
Gem

Margo #118,

If a man told me I was a quality woman, and that he was relationship minded and he could see me as a potential for that, THEN greased my gears with booze and got us into bed under the ‘we’ll just cuddle’ ruse, I’d think his words we’re meaningless, and he was interested in sex more than anything else. The actions didn’t follow the words.

You also said you were more the volunteer than victim so must have wanted/chosen the sex you had but your expectations were unrealistic.

This is why sex with a man early is a risk if you want a LTR. Women wind up feeling used, deceived, hurt, let down, dissapointed. They want the man to be honest, honorable, and have integrity but the fact is, having sex within a few dates time means you’re having sex with a stranger. Why would anyone assume this stranger is going to have your best interests at heart?!

So if someone gambles wtih their body, they better have zero expectations. I date men who tell me all kinds of wonderful things about themselves and build me up too. Okay, great! But I ain’t sleeping with them until I’ve known them long enough to know if their actions match their words. When things fizzle out after a few dates, I’ve lost nothing but time. I’ve maybe gained a friend and usually had a nice time even though it didn’t work out.

I didn’t invest my body, I don’t worry about disease or pregnancy, I don’t second guess my decsion to get naked, I don’t wonder if he thinks I’m a slut, I don’t feel used, or seduced, or deceived.

Don’t get me wrong – I love to kiss, I love to be affectionate and passionate, I show there is a sexy, sultry side to me. Making out is so underrated! But I know my limitations. I just wouldn’t feel good about myself if I slept with a string of dates and they didn’t work out. Frankly, I would feel sleezy about myself.

120. 121
Gem

Karl, #119

“The sex didn’t cause the relationship to end, the lack of relationship potential caused the quicky sex.”

Not necessarly. It seems like you want to argue that sex has no meaning whatsoever in determining LT potential but everything else about her does.

People are trying to figure out on the first few dates if there is any potential. The jury may still be out on a woman and then he finds her initiating sexual jokes/conversation, putting on the flirt heavily, very comfortable with his hands high up on her legs at dinner, inviting him in to make out on her couch, matches him, and even is the aggressor a bit….this info may take her from potential to good time girl very quickly.

It may not be the having sex that caused him to put her in good-time only category, but her attitudes and behaviors about sex that show him her values is what puts her there. Then if sex results quickly after that. She’s not going back in the potential category. Period.

There are many verbal and non-verbal ways in which a woman carries herself regarding sex that tells a man a lot about her. Just like every other thing we say and do. Same as we size up men to find out their character and who they are.

121. 122
Michael17

You know, as a guy I was going to disagree withe EMK, but thinking about this some more, I’m agreeing with him.

If I am into you, I probably won’t hold it against you if we sleep together on the first date. (And yes, I am speaking from experience.) But, the thing is I DEFINITELY won’t hold it against you if you want to wait.

You having sex with us is amazing for us not just for the experience of getting to enjoy your body, but for how we feel about ourselves as men. You’re paying us a huge huge compliment that there is something amazing about us that allowed us into your world like that while you gave other guys the brush-off. So with this in mind, unless we really connected during the date, I might, *might* wonder if you do this sort of thing all the time with other guys, which dilutes the compliment. Or if you’re just using us to get your needs met–which if we consent is definitely your right–but still takes away from that compliment.

Then again, you might not even really care. You women have needs just as much as we guys do.

122. 123
Goldie

You know, I tend to agree with what EMK, Michael and others said, but can I ask something? In every instance of a man and a woman having sex on their first, second etc. date, doesn’t it always start with the man asking? sometimes, with the man asking, hearing “no” and asking again five minutes later? I’ve never heard of a woman seducing an innocent, unwilling guy and having her way with him, have you? The guy is always always the first to ask.

So, if you know that our “yes” is going to make you feel an object, another notch in our bedpost, used, etc etc, i.e. all around negative, then why do you even ask us a yes or no question? Is that a test? Are you looking to see if we pass or fail? Because if it is, then I don’t think I want to be with you. If it isn’t, then we’re two consenting adults and in that case, what’s your problem with “our behavior”?

FTR, I prefer to wait, so let’s not get personal here.

123. 124
Karl R

Evan said: (#125)
“I still don’t think sleeping with someone because you feel like it is a good long-term strategy… UNLESS you can handle the consequences of sex without commitment.”

I agree completely with this statement, specifically for the reason stated in the second half. If you’re having sex early in a relationship, there’s a reasonable chance that it will be sex for the sake of sex.

The decision that she’s not compatable for a LTR may have been made prior to the sex. The decision may be made because the sexually compatability wasn’t there. The decision that she’s not compatable may be made after sex for completely unrelated reasons. For a few men, the decision may be made that she’s too promiscuous (even though it takes two to tango).

I don’t see sex as being a potential relationship-killer. I see it being a potentially risky activity (pregnancy, STDs, emotional attachment) where the only likely return on investment is immediate gratification (and even that’s not guaranteed).

So unless someone’s willing to accept those consequences, they definitely should be waiting.

Gem said: (#129)
“They want the man to be honest, honorable, and have integrity but the fact is, having sex within a few dates time means you’re having sex with a stranger. Why would anyone assume this stranger is going to have your best interests at heart?!”

More importantly, why would anyone assume he’s already interested in a long-term relationship with a woman who is a stranger to him?

Under these circumstances, I expect the woman (as an adult) to be fully capable of keeping her own best interests at heart. And if she doesn’t believe that sex (which may be one-time) is in her best interest, she should be honest with herself and act with integrity based upon that belief.

Gem said: (#130)
“It may not be the having sex that caused him to put her in good-time only category, but her attitudes and behaviors about sex that show him her values is what puts her there.”

In the example you gave, the woman was not mirroring the man (she initiated sexual jokes/conversation, “put on the flirt very heavily”, invited him to make out on the couch, was the aggressor a bit). That’s generally a poor plan.

Furthermore, if I were to act as aggressively as the woman you described, I would expect to get kicked to the curb for my behavior more often than not. Even though I am supposed to be the initiator, I need to proceed slowly and wait for the woman to mirror me in order to ensure that I’m not crossing any of her boundaries. If the woman doesn’t show similar awareness of the social niceties involving my boundaries, we’re probably not compatable. (And I say that as a man who won’t hold it against a woman if she has sex on a first date.)

But if her attitudes and behaviors diverge widely from mine, we’re probably not going to last in the long run. The woman could follow a “Rule” (no early sex) and still have things fall apart because we’re not compatable.

s. stephen said: (#128)
“If majority of this women kept whining about the men bailing after easily having their way with her, then our most safest, reliable, assumptions proves that men often don’t want loose women for a spouse”

You’re confusing correlation with causation.

Let’s say you get a nice suit and tie, then wear them to 10 job interviews. None of the job interviews results in a job. Did you fail to get the jobs because of your suit and tie? Was it a waste of money to buy the suit and tie?

At least 95% of women are poor matches for me. That means that I can easily date 10 women in a row where I do everything right, and she does everything right, and it still doesn’t work out in the long run. Those dates just happened to fall in the 95% that never would have worked.

Some of the same women mentioned above also complain that they don’t have sex with the men, and the men still end up bailing on them.

Men (and women) bail on relationships a high percentage of the time. That’s because compatability is less than 10%. Unless you can demonstrate that they bail more often when there’s early sex, you can’t even prove correlation, much less causation.

But if a woman is angry about how often men bail after sex, she can change the situation by giving them time to bail before sex. If a woman is becoming emotionally entangled with men because of the oxytocin release during sex, she can solve that problem by not having sex until a mutual bond has already formed. If a woman keeps allowing passionate sex to blind her to red flags in the relationship, she can keep a clearer perspective by avoiding the sex until she has a chance to find the red flags.

Evan’s advice (to wait before sex) is good and valid advice in a large number of situations. It prevents a lot of unnecessary pain, anger, resentment, confusion, etc.

s. stephen said: (#128)
“Sexually conservative is never proportional to sexual inept. i bet you some sexually conservative ladies are more skillful than most promiscuous women in bed.”

To paraphrase Susan Johanson (a sex educator who was a guest on the Tonight Show), being a good sex partner can be defined by the three Gs: be Giving, be Good, and be Game.

Being Game means being willing to try new things to see if they’re fun. That’s the opposite of being sexually conservative

Being Giving encompasses two things: 1) The frequency of sex, 2) The amount of effort you put into making your partner happy. If a person wants sex frequently, that will tend to make them less conservative. In addition, the people who are the most giving see sex as an equal exchange; I put effort into satisfying my partner’s needs because my partner is doing the same for me. Furthermore, based on reading this blog, it seems to be that the women who are most willing to postpone sex are the ones who view sex as an unequal exchange; if they have sex with a man, they believe the man owes them something in return (a commitment, a nice gift, etc). That is the opposite of being giving.

Being Good is synonymous with being skillful. Part of it is based on knowledge (which can be learned from books). The other part is based on attentiveness (being aware of how your partner is reacting to what you’re doing). It is possible for someone to have sex thousands of times while remaining ignorant and inattentive. However, both knowledge and attentiveness improve with practice. Therefore, the most skilled people will have a certain amount of experience.

Being sexually conservative doesn’t cause ineptness, but there is a correlation.

And when you take the other two Gs into account, the correlation becomes much stronger.

s. stephen said: (#128)
“to answer your question yes they are sad… every where in real life, even right on this blog, on this topic, in this comment section you hear them whining and complaining….”

You’re talking about the short-term. I’m talking about the long-term (though, to be fair, I didn’t explicitly state that earlier).

In April of 2009 a woman broke up with me after we dated for several weeks. At that time, I was unhappy with that outcome.

I still see that woman (and her current boyfriend) regularly. When I do, I am frequently thankful that I didn’t end up with her in the long run. She’s impatient, short-tempered and generally difficult to get along with.

Women frequently whine and complain about men going … and they also frequently state that the man did them a favor when he left. Women don’t spend years pining over the hypocrite who got away.

s. stephen said: (#128)
“the problem is would a sexually conservative guy want a promiscuous woman?…. but a sexually conservative woman might settle with a promiscuous man, if he’s willing to wait.”

I know some (relatively) conservative men who are in successful relationships with more promiscuous women. I also know some (relatively) conservative women who are in successful relationships with more promiscuous men. I know more couples where the partners are more evenly matched. (And for most couples, I have no clue about their personal life.)

You have stated that you’re a sexually conservative man. You prefer women who share your values. That’s normal. I suspect your male friends also tend to be sexually conservative men. I would expect them to share your attitudes.

My friends range from extremely conservative to promiscuous (and even deviant). The overwhelming trend is people look for those who share their sexual values. The minority is willing to accept a partner who is significantly different (in either direction).

Now there is a cultural trope (especially in popular culture) of the good girl falling for the bad boy and reforming him. But I wouldn’t call it acceptance if there’s an expectation (especially if it’s a false expectation) that the man is going to change to suit her preference.

124. 125
saint stephen

Micheal17 Said
You having sex with us is amazing for us not just for the experience of getting to enjoy your body, “but for how we feel about ourselves as men”. You’re paying us a huge huge compliment that there is something amazing about us that allowed us into your world like that while you gave other guys the brush-off. So with this in mind, unless we really connected during the date, I might, *might* wonder if you do this sort of thing all the time with other guys, which dilutes the compliment.
Thank you Micheal17 for expressing my point better… it is in a Man inherent nature to want to know that he means more than a World to you for you to have let him in…Bearing that in mind he’s definitely gonna kick a slut to the curbs.

125. 126
Sherell

Gem You are spot on!  Contrary to what ohers say there is a double standard.  I set my own standards and I am not an early/easy lay. It took me and my guy about 8 weeks before we agreed to be exclusive.  Now we didn’t go from 0-60 at the 8 week mark.  The intimacy was built over time.  Like a simmering pot!!!

I think some of the guys that say they never devalue woman who sleep with them quickly only date women that they are really interested in.  But many guys  date to have fun and are not always looking for a realtionship.  And often times they know right away if they are considering someone for a LTR or just sex.

And ladies you certainly can not go by what they “tell” you but rather by their actions!

126. 127
nathan

EMK@125 “Many first dates turn into second dates. The question is whether he’s got the incentive to get to learn about her platonically. If she sleeps with him right away, unfortunately, for many men, the answer is no.”

I actually see this as more complicated. There are the men who have a pattern of having sex and then disappearing if it wasn’t “good enough,” or if they didn’t want a relationship, or whatever. However, other patterns can play out. For example, the first date sex was great, and clouds both the guy’s and woman’s perception. They then over-estimate their compatibility and linger together for weeks, months, even years together, having a relationship that ultimately can’t last. Another example is that the guy actually likes her, enjoys sleeping with her, and wants to continue after the first date, but she has regrets about the sex, and is worried that the first example might happen if they stay together. Now, it might be that these two are actually a good match, but because of the first date sex, things get all confused. Is it the sex or is it something more?

None of this is to say that having sex on a first (or second) date means you’re “screwed” in terms of having a LTR. But I do believe that the odds are high that it will lead to some muddied thinking at the very least. Which is why I choose to hold off, at least for a little while.

127. 128
Stacy

I can’t believe people are arguing with “saint stephen”  – seriously, you’re trying to change the value system of a 24yo immigrant who quite possibly is from a part of the world where women are not allowed to drive about SEX? I mean c’mon, he will wise up eventually… as he acquires life experience… or not, but certainly on on this board

On the subject of sex on the 1st (2nd, 3rd, etc) dates, there’s no one size fits all answer. I know (in NYC) guys who would dump a girl like a hot potato if she doesn’t put out on date #3, and I also know guys who’re sexual hypocrites as Evan described – would push for sex very early and then hold it agains the girl later (happened to me). And then there’s a whole bunch of more or less normal attitudes between these 2 extremes, which I personally find equally disgusting.

How is a girl supposed to navigate this landscape with any integrity? My answer is close your legs ladies. If you must, have a vacation fling, get a (permanent) friend with benefits, buy a vibrator, but do NOT hop from a bed to bed on each and every date #3. This is just ridiculous. You’re much better off using sex and your (even if perseived) high moral standards as leverage when a relationship material guy comes along. Just my experienced. YMMV.

128. 129
Michael17

Now I’m going to say something that seemingly contradicts my last post: My MO as a guy on a date is to make physical moves on the girl. ESPECIALLY if I am into her. Why? It’s not a “test” to see if she can hold us off. It is instead because I am attracted to her and I am acting on it. AND just as much, if I do want this girl to become my girlfriend, I know I will have a lot more choice in the matter if we get physical than if I “respect” (in quotes because I don’t think it has anything to do with respect) her and hold off on making my moves.

Thing is, I am willing to wait for that special girl. But it won’t be due to my not going for it. What I don’t want is her sleeping with someone else while I am “properly courting” her. Especially if is the case where she was into me more but the other guy made his move and I did not.  Sex bonds a woman to a man, and if she is sleeping with another guy and not me, then she is probably going to go for him, no matter whether she was into me more before or not.

I agree with Shouraku #116 as well. First-time sex is often as much as “test”.

129. 130
Sharon

If a casanova falls in love its perceived as huge compliment because despite the limitless sexual options and extensive conquest he’s opened heart/ mind/ soul to a women.

If a women that has options and notches on her belt chooses to open herself emotionally to man somehow the compliment is lost all together.

Historically marriage was the social construct by which a man took possession of his wife as property. It used to be and in some places still is the case, that a raped women should kill herself because she has lost value in society.

Excuse me if I get a little miffed at the thought of potential lover estimating my milage as if I were a used car. Last time I checked having a vagina didn’t void my status as a person first.

130. 131
Bettina

Goldie@132: BRILLIANT point. Really. That’s why I posted that joke by the comedienne @77. I mean, talk about messed up.

131. 132
Bettina

Sharon@139: Also very good points.

Michael17@138: You’re talking some weird biology stuff. No hormone has the power to attach a woman to a guy over you because he got there first. It’s called “she’s just not that into you.”

132. 133
Jennifer

I find that when people know themselves well and are being honest about their preferences, they tend to mostly encounter and end up with like-minded people. So as a woman that has had sex on the first date (and gone on to have a relationship) and waited longer to have sex (and gone on to have a relationship) and isn’t ashamed of the first scenario, I don’t have to worry about the guys that would think ill of me because of my attitude. We just wouldn’t end up close enough to each other for it to even matter.

I do think there is a time when folks are figuring themselves out- can they handle casual sex without getting attached, do they even want to, etc. but the issue is once they figure out their preferences do they honor them or constantly work to be something they are not or behave in ways that aren’t comfortable to them?

When you are truly comfortable with your preferences and make choices based on them, the thoughts of those around you whose preferences don’t fall in line with what you want just don’t really matter.

133. 134
saint stephen

We have the two categories of Men posting on this Topic- 1)The dishonest Men who will tell the ladies the bitter truth they wouldn’t want to hear even though they know is true, and 2) the other type of Men that might say something else while their action speaks volumes of another.

Still looking said
For the right woman I’m willing to wait.  For others, maybe fantastic sex would keep me around until I fell in love. (i don’t know who these others are)
He seems not to share views with Evan on this topic but his action does.
I am sure a Man like Still Looking Would competently distinguish between sex and love which explains why he happens not to have falling in love with the OTHERS yet (in his above statement).
With so many beautiful and wonderful single ladies, i often wonder why Still looking is still looking, and Never finding.
he says While he’s willing to wait for the right woman, for the OTHERS is strictly FWB. i do not see much difference between his lifestyle and that of us who were labeled hypocritical.

134. 135
Fawn

For the record – I had sex with my guy on the first date.  Why?  Because he made me laugh, he was sweet, he was nonjudgemental and we both love sex.  He did not pressure me - he didn’t have to.  My expectations did not go beyond that night.  We are still together after 3 years and we are talking marriage.   Bottom line – we have like minds.  He would never think to penalize me for having sex with him early.  I’ve learned that some guys will mind and some won’t.  It’s up to you to decide whether or not the possible resulting outcome is in accordance with your own agenda.  Personally, I like living in the moment, and always have - the less rules the better.  I have never felt like I have been duped or taken advantage of.  I know my choices are my own and I know if I can’t live with those choices then I need to adjust my actions accordingly.

135. 136
saint stephen

Stacey said
and I also know guys who’re sexual hypocrites as Evan described – would push for sex very early and then hold it agains the girl later (happened to me).
Stacey- if you think my Values hinge on my pedigree then what would you say about the other Guys in your comment above. were they immigrants too? i do not my think values can be affiliated to where i’m coming from… if for one thing i know my values are shared by men universally.

136. 137
Margo

Off topic for a bit: How are you guys able to quote comments on this blog? When I try to select passages to copy, it ends up highlighting every single word on this page. I can’t just select the words or paragraphs I want to copy. Advise please.

137. 138
Goldie

@ Jennifer #141:

“I do think there is a time when folks are figuring themselves out- can they handle casual sex without getting attached, do they even want to, etc. but the issue is once they figure out their preferences do they honor them or constantly work to be something they are not or behave in ways that aren’t comfortable to them?”

For me, it depends on the guy. If I really like him (which only happens once in a blue moon), then yes I do stand the risk of getting attached as a result of becoming intimate, and need to slow down and be careful. If I’m feeling more or less indifferent, then I can have all the sex I want with him and not get attached. Then again, he may get attached to me and that will make me feel pretty low, like I’ve been leading him on. These things do happen, BTW. This whole thread, we’ve been talking about women and their vulnerability, but I’ve seen this happen to guys too – they get attached too soon, and then I’m racking my brain not knowing what to do with them

138. 139
Still Looking

Margo@146
You asked, “  How are you guys able to quote comments on this blog? ”

I just Left-Clicked, highlighted your question,  Right-Clicked, selected copy, Right-Clicked in the comment box, and selected paste.

Hope this helps.

139. 140
saint stephen

@Fawn #144
Having early sex before finding out if your guy is nonjudgmental or not, is a pool of risk i wouldn’t advice most women to take… because unlike you most women like living in the future.  cases like yours occurs once in every 50.

140. 141
Jennifer

Goldie- you are so correct about male attachment as well. I’ve had what I thought would be a fleeting encounter only to have the guy want much much more.

St. Stephen- if this blog teaches you anything it should be that your values and way of thinking is *not* universal. Far from. And when you pull random numbers out of your ass to justify your stance, ie ‘only 1 in 50 women is like you’ as you said to Fawn earlier, you just weaken your argument. Something to think about for the future.

People that are comfortable with (and truly see the validity of) their POV don’t need to try to pretend and convince themselves that it’s universal nor do they need to try to discredit those who feel differently. It’s just not necessary.

141. 142

149 But what if a woman only wants a man who’s proven himself to be non judgemental before she decides that she wants him to be hers? Values compatibility is a pretty important thing to discern.

142. 143
Margo

@Judafish 3151, so very true. It’s unfortunate that, all too often, we can let chemistry blind us to what really matters in regard to long-term relationships. Of course, we all know that the chemistry has to be there, but we are foolish to discount values and compatibility in choosing a mate.

@Still Looking #148, thanks, but that is what I have been doing. I’ve always done that when quoting something. It appears that perhaps this website is not compatible with my laptop.

143. 144
Sherell

I agree 100%

“So if someone gambles wtih their body, they better have zero expectations. I date men who tell me all kinds of wonderful things about themselves and build me up too. Okay, great!

But I ain’t sleeping with them until I’ve known them long enough to know if their actions match their words. When things fizzle out after a few dates, I’ve lost nothing but time. I’ve maybe gained a friend and usually had a nice time even though it didn’t work out.”I didn’t invest my body, I don’t worry about disease or pregnancy, I don’t second guess my decsion to get naked, I don’t wonder if he thinks I’m a slut, I don’t feel used, or seduced, or deceived.’

I love sex and I also put a high value on myself and who I share myself with.  No strangers

144. 145
Katarina Phang

Goldie #5, I’m glad you figured that out.  :)  Yes there is no hard and fast rule about dating, it should be about what makes you happy in the moment and following your intuition.

Saint Stephen #22, not really!!  My 2 LTRs (one marriage) of 17 years started sex on first date.  Yes, that’s true.  If you are a quality woman and he’s into you, when to have sex doesn’t matter.  I’m so a world apart in this regard compared to other dating coaches.  I advocate women to be so totally comfortable with their sexuality and don’t view it as something dirty or shameful if you “give away” too “easily” or “early.”

I’m not saying, go have sex with anyone because believe me most women don’t.  Wait if you’re not ready or not feeling it yet but don’t feel guilty just because you “give in” to the heat of the moment.

145. 146
Katarina Phang

Seriously, those who believe that sex on first dates kill the chance of 2nd dates: I have dozens of sexless first dates that don’t translate into 2nd dates.  And the opposites: a bunch guys I have sex early (first or second dates) and I would be still seeing them for many next dates months thereafter.

The only difference is whether or not the guys are into you or not and mutual attraction, of course.

It’s not the sex.  At least it’s not for me.  There has never been any reason for me to believe so. Most dates are only first dates anyway, with or without sex.  The only thing that will make men (and women) keep coming back to you is ATTRACTION.  Sex is just one of the pieces, it’s very important but often it doesn’t solely make or break a relationship (apart from when there is sexual incompatibility).

If there is chemistry, in fact great sex helps. I will never advocate women to treat sex like an enemy.  It’s a great communication tool for me.

146. 147
NN

“What about after finding out his good in bed you become emotionally attached and he dumps you for some other lady he considers better in bed?”

Sorry, I don’t come attached to him.. I never have.. not so far in 20 years.. I guess I have never had that good sex that it affects my judgement?
Nor has ever any man said no to sex with me, I have been the one to terminate that part.. I guess I’m pretty good? =D.. At least I am open to try about anything when I have sex (inc BDSM), and I don’t say no to play, unless I am ready to leave the relationship.

I know, I tend to think like a man.. sex is an appetite but I’m choosy because unless I like a man and his ethics, why would I want to give anything to him..? (even time)

Still..
if you have read what I have written before, this is how I look at men:

Only those who pass those, I might bed.. and I have met men who pass those, but sex has been boooooooring. =/

Those I call friends these days, as I see them more as brothers I have chosen for myself but you don’t have sex with brothers, as there is no chemistry.

If there is no chemistry, and if sex doesn’t work, then it is next!
I don’t see any point of wasting his time, nor mine.

I have met hot men who make me sizzle with chemistry (when I look at them) but who don’t pass my character judgment, and I still choose not to have sex with any of them since I believe in self-control.

Even if I don’t think one should wait for 6 months like the book recommends, I think the writer has a got it nailed why it is a mistake to settle, and why so few men are worth my time.

147. 148
Margo

I’m on the same page as Katarina Phang. The men she speaks of in her posts 154, and 155 are the kind of men I’m interested in dating. The mature, non-hypocritical men who don’t seduce you for sex and then blame you for giving it to them afterward.

148. 149
Katarina Phang

Yes Margo, you will attract the exact same kind people that you are.  If you are into chastity, the chastity-loving guys will stick around, the Karl and Nathan of the world will perhaps not bother (and don’t blame them for that, they have options!).  If you are sexually liberated like me, the sexual liberated guys find you extremely alluring.

Stick to your values.  Do what feels right to YOU, not because what norm/rules/ other people tell you.  Have faith in your own magnetism.  What you believe becomes….as simple as that and I have proven it myself.

And always remember, nobody owes you anything…before or after sex.  There is no guarantee of anything.  Even married people get divorced!  It’s solely your own responsibility as an adult whom you have sex with and how often.  So yeah, you might as well enjoy it while you’re at it, if he disappears at least you had great sex.  It’s healthy for you.  Many women who aren’t having sex are prone to depression.

That has always been my attitude, and most of the guys stick around ’cause I’m soooo fun and easy and uncomplicated to be with.  Not every guy I have sex with is suitable for me either in the long run so I get to choose too.  Sometimes it’s me who disappears.

149. 150
Margo

Katarina, I love your comments and advice. NN, thank you for those links. That book is really good! I was able to read a 26 page excerpt, and I’m definitely ordering it.

150. 151

158 Correlation isn’t causation. Prescription meds for depression are known to do a number on a person’s libido. Two of the symptoms of untreated depression are anhedonia and lethargy. People don’t have sex because they’re depressed, they’re not depressed because they don’t have sex.

Also, many women wouldn’t feel the way they do about casual sex with men if casual sex were often good/great for them. Sometimes constructing an emotional attachment serves to imbue an unsatisfying encounter with at least one redeeming quality (we experienced an intimate moment together, perhaps things are getting serious!), and/or vindicate a woman’s sense of moral rectitude. “I’m not one of ‘those kinds of girls’, I just thought he was my boyfriend for a month, starting from the day I met him, and he decieved me.”

151. 152
Katarina Phang

Mmmm…Jadafisk, it’s actually well documented that stresses and sex are correlated.  Women who haven’t had sex in a long time can be prone to stresses/depression and stresses/depression make you less sexual.  t’s vicious cycle.

Orgasm is good for your mental and physical well-being.  And sex begets sex, the more you do it, the more you want it.  That’s why those who are low-libido partners (especially women) in relationship should just do it anyway because once you start you can go on and on (especially if he is good in putting her in the mood).

Margo, thanks!

152. 153
Sherell

Having great sex!  Never been  depressed!  Not an early/easy lay, by choice.  Moved at my own rhythm.

On another note :exceptions do not cancel the rule!!!

153. 154
Helen

Disclaimer: I have no personal expertise in this area, having never slept with a man on a first date ever (then again, my last date with someone other than hubby was 13 years ago, so this is a dinosaur’s perspective).  But I’m inclined to agree with Katarina Phang #158.

Women are too obsessed with doing what we think will please the man, or what will get him to stick around. We would do better to focus on what WE want: what would give US pleasure. Most men are awesome in that they want us to be happy. So ladies, what would make you happy? If you want sex on the first date and feel adequately protected both physically and emotionally, go for it!  In all honesty, I think the guy is more likely to stay with you if he sees that you’re happy and fulfilled, rather than relying on some stupid rule about how long to wait.

Do what makes you happy, and you’ll likely see that everyone around you (including the man you want) is delighted to be with you.

154. 155
Margo

Go, Helen! I am very pleased to read such refreshing responses from such a mature group of men and women on here. Just confirms what I already knew, the shady scumbag who seduced me into early sex and blamed me for giving in to him, is just what he is: a shady scumbag! lol.

155. 156
Helen

Thanks, Margo. Yes, there are many other decent and kind men out there. Just be yourself and do what makes you happy. You’ll get a glow that will attract men like flies to honey.

I think it’s crippling to both men and women when women assume that men run the show, while we women are just the receptors. The truth is, men are very receptive too. They’re constantly taking their cues from us.  I’ve seen it again and again – I’ll give my husband or my colleagues a huge smile, and it doesn’t matter how gloomy they were before – they’ll smile back and act happier. So remember, ladies: our enjoyment is a gift to the men, too.

156. 157
Annie

@158

Why do you consider yourself sexually liberated? Did you try to hold back in the past, and now you don’t which makes you feel liberated?

157. 158
Saint Stephen

@Helen (#65)
Thanks, Margo. Yes, there are many other decent and kind men out there. Just be yourself and do what makes you happy. You’ll get a glow that will attract men like flies to honey.
Whats the definition of decent and kind in the context of your comment?
I didn’t know i needed someone to tell me ladies who gladly dismissed guys (for a second date) that wanted them to split their first dating tab were unkind and not decent, even though they had pretended to be fine with it.
That’s the implication of what you are trying to say, even if you haven’t realized it yet.
And i also found your advice to Margo to be bit retard.if being herself means sleeping with guys on a first date… Then sure the glow will definitely attract men like flies. but the problem is will the glow be enough to stick those men around for a LTR (especially if that’s what she is looking for)? however good luck to her living the advice. lets see how it works out in the long run.

Katarina Phang (#161)
Katarina Phang- you of all people should know that the assumed health benefits of sex are generally thought to accrue to people in loving, monogamous relationships. Risky sex with lots of partners will probably do more harm than good.
BTW what’s depression compared to other health risk factors such as STDS, HIV or unwanted pregnancy?

Katarina Phang: Said (#158)
Stick to your values.  Do what feels right to YOU, not because what norm/rules/ other people tell you.  Have faith in your own magnetism.  What you believe becomes….as simple as that and I have proven it myself.
I believe i can fly… would that make me fly? Hell No!!… there is law of gravity militating against that.
I’ll feel lucky to find a girl who feels no qualms in splitting our first dating tab and still proceeds to have a good relationship with me.
but i believe i’ll be doing a great disservice to other men by telling them just because i did it they too can do it.

158. 159
Katarina Phang

Annie, I am sex positive.  I don’t view sex in the context of so many people do: shameful, dirty (unless you are married/in relationship), and all the negative things assigned to it.  Sex is part of our humanity.  Embrace it.  Don’t be so conflicted about it.

Saint Stephen, there are ways to minimize STDs, pregnancy, etc….  People die everyday driving, should we also shun from it?  I never caught anything all my life…not even yeast infection (only once that I can remember many years ago).  We should stop all the hysteria around sex.  Have safe sex, get checked often.  There are ways to have a fulfilling sex life that enriches your life in the process.

Be reasonable.  Sex can be beautiful, sacred, and all the good stuff our idealized view wants to believe it is as long as it suits our preconceived notion of what is right and wrong but sex is also just sex.  It’s like eating and drinking, it’s a necessity.  Fight it and we’ll see the kind of perversion it brings about (priests molesting young boys, anyone?)

Sex has many layers, levels and dimensions.  I embrace them all.

The more you resist it, the more it persists.

And Stephen, I have told you what works for me.  It doesn’t work for you, fine…men your type won’t date women my type anyway.  I won’t find you attractive and perhaps vice versa.  To each their own.  And guys who want to split checks on first dates aren’t my type either but there are probably women who don’t mind.  You can certainly do that if you really feel so strongly about it.  You shouldn’t follow the norm if that really makes you unhappy.  You are a free human being.

159. 160
Annie

@168

So if some-one only prefers sex in a relationship, they are sex negative? Non-liberated? they think it’s shameful and dirty?

That’s why I asked you why you considered your choices sexually to be by default “liberated”. I was curious as to wether you used to want to do things but didn’t, and when you began to, you felt more liberated. IE you have something to compare against.

I find nothing more liberating than having sex with one person, over many years, where we can really know each other and learn how to give each other what we want. I do not find sex with strangers liberating, I find it boring, risky and empty which is why I haven’t done it in over 16 years.

Now people can view sex however they want, that’s not an issue.

But I don’t get why you put a label on the type of sex you have. One persons Liberation is another persons nightmare.

One of the most sex-positive organisations in the world, is the Catholic Church. They also believe sex should only be within a marriage. Default Labels can really confuse things.

160. 161
Saint Stephen

Katarina Phang: said (#168)
there are ways to minimize STDs, pregnancy, etc….  People die everyday driving, should we also shun from it?  I never caught anything all my life…not even yeast infection (only once that I can remember many years ago).  We should stop all the hysteria around sex.  Have safe sex, get checked often.  There are ways to have a fulfilling sex life that enriches your life in the process.
Point of correction- people die from reckless driving. hence you can shun driving recklessly.
BTW, Did you notice the complete irony in your comment above? How does performing an action (lots of casual sex) that requires you getting checked often in the hospital enriches your life?
you can’t fight your addictions? fine! you don’t have to delude those who have disciplined themselves into believing is keeps them healthy by simply pointing some trivial benefit.
Yes Sex is is good to those who are addicted to it,  and so is cigarette, so is taking coke. No matter how hard you keep hammering those involved in such risky activities you would probably be hitting a brick wall…. smoking coke makes you high, energetic and productive. but the problem is does the advantages outweigh the disadvantages?
There are a lots companies the world over manufacturing different brands and qualities of condoms yet STDS, HIV and unwanted pregnancies are still the order of the day.
So how exactly can someone have this safe Sex?
Research findings did also prove that human-immuno-defficiency virus is 10 times smaller than the hole in condom. the virus is 10 nano-meter while the holes on condoms are hundred nanometer. so it will take luck to save you if involved with someone who had contacted the virus.
I’m yet to see how indulging in lots of casual sex enriches life, in fact what i see is the complete opposite. women suffering from the negative side effects of contraceptives, suffering from one STD to another, unwanted pregnancies, complication sometimes arising from abortion, HIV, etc.
If your advice was true then i don’t see any reason why i should be much more healthier than my philandering guy friend who is constantly going from one Medication to the other.
Sometimes their are reactions when too many different blood mixes up together, and thanks a lot but i find no fun in mixing up my blood with too many (strangers) women.

Katarina Phang: Said
but sex is also just sex.  It’s like eating and drinking, it’s a necessity.
Even though their is pleasure involved in the act, I’m sure even animals view it as means of reproduction rather than food and water.
Lots of Nutritious food and water keeps me healthier… but lots of casual sex does the exact opposite.

Katarina Phang: Said
Fight it and we’ll see the kind of perversion it brings about (priests molesting young boys, anyone?)

I’m sure you should have realized by now that not only priests are pedophiles, and they are what they by nature. Pedophile is an act of sexual perversion such as Homosexuality, Bestiality and Sadomasochism, it has absolutely nothing to do with been sexually deprived. believe me it were i would have been doing the same molesting to little boys.

1. 161.1
Evan Marc Katz

St. Stephen – it’s not that what you have to say has no merit. But when you capitalize random words and say that homosexuality is an act of perversion, you’ve lost me and most of our readers. Tone it down and try to listen, okay?

161. 162
Margo

Annie, I’m curious: How is the Catholic Church sex-positive? I know they are anti-birth control, anti-abortion. Is that what you mean?

162. 163
Katarina Phang

Annie, I’m sex positive because unlike so many of you I don’t feel guilty because I happen to give in to the heat of passion every now and then and I don’t “stalk” or hate the guys because they don’t want a relationship with me after sex (never expected relationship just because I had sex with them).  Unlike so many of you, I don’t judge others (women) who choose to have casual sex every now and then because they want it (and believe me many women do that…”promiscuous” guys don’t have sex with the same women over and over).

Saint Stephen, you go overboard with the sex thing.  Having casual sex every now and then with guys you like isn’t as bad as reckless driving.  You make it sound much more awful than it actually is.

I love my sex life, I don’t need you to preach your moral values on me. It won’t work.  We’re just different people with different values/needs/priorities, deal with it.  No explanation will suffice to make you see your own prejudice.  I can’t choose celibate life, if you can…more power to you but you can’t enforce that value upon others.  That’s unrealistic.

163. 164
Katarina Phang

And I’m sex positive because I’m about CHOICE: if a woman wants to have sex in relationship only that’s fine by me, but if others want to choose different paths, that’s also fine by me.  No one rule suits all.

Sex is great either way: sex is as meaningful or meaningless you make it to be.  Every sexual encounter is meaningful to me.  Just because a person is a prude it doesn’t mean his/her value has universal hold upon others.

And excuse me the Catholic Church holds the most single dimensional view on sex: how can it be sex positive?

164. 165
Saint Stephen

EMK (#172)
I’m sorry if i appeared so. Homosexuality only came into the picture because i was trying to buttress my point. to me Perversion simply means a deviation from the Norm.

165. 166
Annie

#@171

Your question kind of makes my point. What is sex-positive?

What Katarina, is implying over and over wether she means to or not, is that if people dont’ have sex the way she does, they are not liberated, not positive about sex and prudish. That’s why I query comments such as “I’m liberated sexually, so therefore I have no issue with casual sex”. What is so liberating about casual sex?

These are words that are just flung out there and there is never really a rational reason given as to why they mean anything. It almost sounds like it’s more about rebellion than genuine pleasure.

I cannot tell you how many times men have called me a prude(And sometimes women), because I won’t give a random man, I’ve known for maybe 12 hours or so, what he wants. Are people really that easily manipulated. What is so positive about having very average casual sex with a rude and manipulative man?
The catholic church wants people to have the best sex possible. They have a very firm view on what makes the best possible sex.

Wether you agree with their particular view or not isn’t really the point.

But understand that they are very strong supporters of awesome and regular sex. Meaning, they are very positive about sex. IE sex-positive.

And to point out, I’m an atheist. I’m not preaching religious views here. Take away the “god” stuff, and the catholic church(along with other groups, such as those that follow judaism/christianity) still has some very sound and reasonable advice.

@170.

I agree with some of what you say, but I do have to query your comment that HIV molecules are smaller than the holes in condoms. That was a falsehood, told by the catholic church(I didn’t say they got everything right..lol). It is simply not true. InTact Condoms are impermeable to the virus.

Also disagree with your comments on homosexuality. It may not be the norm, but for those that are gay it is also not a choice. I didn’t choose to be hetero, any more than my uncle chose to be Gay.

The rest I tend to agree with.

166. 167
Goldie

@ Annie,

Doesn’t the Catholic Church prohibit birth control? How can you have “the best sex possible” when you’re either pregnant or breastfeeding, and taking care of multiple older children, at all times? My son goes to school with a kid from a devout Catholic family. When I met them seven years ago, the kid was the oldest of four and Mom was pg with kid number five. Any time I run into this family in public (which is about once a year), Mom always has an infant and a toddler with her. Don’t know how many she has in total, I lost count after seven and that was years ago. Now I respect her and her husband’s decision to raise a large family, but how in the world can they have the best sex possible in this situation?

Also, I do not see where Katarina tried to put a label on you, but you’ve been putting quite a few labels on her, “rebellion” being the mildest. Can we agree that everyone chooses what works best for their age group, social group, marital status (never married/divorced/planning to remarry/not planning to remarry) and their belief system or lack thereof? Personally, I have more in common with Katarina, so her approach would work better for me than yours would. I’m learning a lot from her comments on this thread.

167. 168
Ruby

I would describe the Catholic church as pregnancy-and-baby-making-positive, more than I would “sex-positive”. Yes, they are “positive” about sex, as long as it’s within the confines of heterosexual marriage, and the woman is willing to breed.

168. 169
Helen

Annie, I agree with Goldie. Katarina never tried to label you. You just started - well – steamrolling her, revealing more than anything your own discomfort about the topic rather than anything negative about her.

She seemed to be saying (and I agree) that there isn’t anything inherently evil about sex. It’s just a fact of life, at least, of sexual species; I’ll qualify it from a biological standpoint.  She stated outright that it doesn’t matter whether a woman likes or dislikes, wants or doesn’t want, sex with multiple partners, a single partner, etc. A person’s sexual preferences, whether male or female, does not make him or her evil.

Personally I am more like you; I never was drawn to casual sex and certainly won’t have it now with others, being married. But I’m fine with other women who want it frequently. Does that make me sexually liberated? A sexually liberated sex-positive prude?  Who the he** cares. Labels are boring and insignificant.

I do agree with you that stephen’s information was false about HIV penetrating condoms. Not only are the relative sizes incorrect, but it’s important to remember that semen-borne pathogens are embedded in a medium: the semen. If the semen itself cannot penetrate the condom, then the virus, bacterium, or protozoan certainly won’t.

169. 170
Katarina Phang

Goldie, thank you for seeing it as it is.  In the fashion so typical of a sex conservative, Annie manages to malign me and make presumptions of my character while ignoring altogether that I’m about whatever feels right -or works- for any particular woman.

I am liberated because sex to me is an inherent part of the human experience/condition, while you are so stuck in your view belittling those who don’t agree with your conservative view, Annie.

Where do I imply “having sex with a rude of manipulative or random man”?  Projecting much, are we?   I think you sound like a prude not because you don’t have casual sex, but because you look down on others who do.

Annie, I have had (some) sex in a marriage and it was lousy.  So I don’t get the exaltation as if sex in a relationship is the best anyone can get.  NO it’s not.  It can be ho-hum and uninspiring and soul-killing.  My sex life now is much better than when I was married, hence I’m happier.

The Catholic Church is all about procreation sex, hence no contraception.  If you agree with it, good for you, but please explain again how can it be sex-positive???  So If I want to have sex simply for recreation (even in relationship) and don’t want to get pregnant, it’s against their credo, is it?

Again, what’s so positive about limiting people’s sexuality in such a manner?

Happiness is what people should go for, it doesn’t matter what witch hunters/nay sayers say to stigmatize you/rain on your parade.

170. 171
Katarina Phang

Helen, thank you!

It seems very common that those who are against casual sex altogether or women choosing to express their sexuality project their unresolved issues/anger in their response to me/people like me.  You’re so right, it speaks more of them than of those they are scolding.

It perhaps proves my point that they need to loosen up by having more sex.  Orgasm works so wonderfully to our emotional/mental well-being other than bringing physical pleasure.

171. 172
Annie

@177 & 179

I never said Kat put a label on me, personally. She is however applying a label to certain behaviour that is simply innacruate, and yes Helen I’m sorry to say labels really do matter because of a human issue called peer pressure.

Now if a bloke wants to say to me, that I’m a prude, then I can easily walk away. I’m 37 years of age. But if you really think these attitudes aren’t affecting younger people, then okay, but I think you’d be wrong.

Even our friend Kat here, can’t even describe what “liberated” really is. It sounds like a catch-phrase and little more.

So I will ask you again Kat, what IS liberating to you about casual sex?

I haven’t belittled you, I haven’t once said there is “something wrong with you” for wanting casual sex, but it certainly comes across as though people who don’t hold your views, are unliberated, prudish and ‘stuck”, rather than having perfectly rational reasons for their own views.

And that’s why I’m responding to you.

Now let’s put some quotes in here.

“I am liberated because sex to me is an inherent part of the human experience/condition”" Okay. fine so far.

, while you are so stuck in your view belittling those who don’t agree with your conservative view, Annie.”

What belittling have I done?

172. 173
Annie

@177

About the Catholic church(or any other church)wether they are right or wrong isn’t the point that I’m trying to make.(Although we can discuss elements of their beliefs that you/I support/don’t support if you’d like…that’s a bit of a quagmire however..hehe).

The point is,  they’ve come up with their rules over a long period of time because through observation they BELIEVE if you follow those rules, you have the best chance of having a great, life-long emotionally and physically fullfilling relationship.

This is hardly a negative view of human sexuality. But it does suggest that if people choose to control their behaviour in the immediate sense, they get the best reward in the long term.

Now you don’t have to agree with their rules, again that’s not my point.

What we do hear in society is this constant view that anyone that dares to suggest that human beings might do well to control their more basic instincts, for a BETTER result in their love lives, are the “moralizing” fun police. We may actually just be representing an alternative option that is ultimately MORE fun and more successful.

It’s pretty hard to present that alternative option, when you get drowned out by false assumptions such as the ones that have been implied on this thread, and other’s I’ve heard over the years. Such as “Your a religious nut”, “You’re just a prude”, “you hate men”, “you hate sex”, “you are just an uptight conservative” yadda yadda yadda.

I’m an athiest for goodness sake, I don’t even ‘believe’ that morals exist . I do believe that there is a strong cause and effect in our sexual lives and it can have a negative impact on our capacity to have the “best possible sex” and the best possible relationship.

173. 174
Katarina Phang

Annie, read again your response to me.  Goldie and Helen sensed the condescending attitude.

What other explanation do you need about my sexually liberated stance?  I obviously feel comfortable about my sexuality and female sexual expression in any way, shape or form so long it doesn’t hurt anyone.  You see sex as having a place in a committed relationship only and view others who don’t share your values with nothing short of a “disgusted shock.”

I’m obviously, based on that alone, more sexually liberated than you (now I don’t know if you’re a prude or not but I would define a prude as anyone who feels guilty, dirty or shamed after having sex with someone she likes even when she wants/needs it deep down).

Controlling our basic instinct, though sounds noble on the surface, doesn’t always work in the long run as we have seen what happens with the sexually repressed people or sexually oppressive cultures. And the Catholic Church hasn’t been a fine example in that regard.  I’m surprised you still view it in such awe.

What they believe isn’t necessarily reality.  Far from it.  The Catholic Church penalizes those who view sex quite differently to theirs.  How can that be positive???

Human sexuality is complex.  Relationship is complex.  Combine the two, it’s even harder to draw a simple formula from.  Some people think by limiting it or putting a cage around it, then everything smells roses.  Those who have been married on in LTR in which sex didn’t work knows this. That’s a very naive view to hold.

174. 175
Katarina Phang

And what’s so liberating about casual sex?  It’s liberating when you can purely enjoy it and nourish your body and soul without the complex that so many people seem to have (conflicts between needs and guilt).  It’s liberating when it enriches your life.  You may not believe it but it does some people including myself.  Who says sex is only good/beneficial when you do it with someone you can’t live without?

You can still care for your sexual partners even when you are not in relationship with them.  You still can love each other as human beings/friends/fuckbuddies, whatever…   I don’t see anything wrong in that!!!  I’m sorry if some people are offended by that, but that’s really their problems.

175. 176
Goldie

@ #183

“The point is,  they’ve come up with their rules over a long period of time because through observation they BELIEVE if you follow those rules, you have the best chance of having a great, life-long emotionally and physically fullfilling relationship.”

Why would they have this end goal in mind?… That’s not why they put those rules in place at all. Why would a church that teaches things like “wife should fear her husband” teach the couples how to strive towards a great, emotionally and physically fullfilling relationship? as long as the two do not divorce, do not cheat on each other, and keep having kids, that’s all that matters to church. (I was a member of the Orthodox church for 20 years before I got out, so I’ve had some time to do some reading and research). That is what those rules are for. Nothing to do with anyone’s happiness, which from the church’s standpoint does not matter in the grand scheme of things.

# 182:

“Now if a bloke wants to say to me, that I’m a prude, then I can easily walk away. I’m 37 years of age. But if you really think these attitudes aren’t affecting younger people, then okay, but I think you’d be wrong.”

Pretty sure Katarina is not referring to teenage kids, or married couples, or people looking to get married. She does what works for her and people like her, which is I’m guessing people in their 40s, 50s and so on who do not want another family or more kids.

This is the first I’m hearing that a 40+-year-old is able to peer-pressure teenagers. Sorry, I’m laughing so hard at that one.

Let’s go easy on hasty generalizations, or else next we will be saying that “liberated sexually” means preschoolers should have all the sex they want.

176. 177
Katarina Phang

Yes, Goldie, I’m one of those who will advocate teenagers to wait to have sex.  I didn’t have sex in high school either.  When you’re young, you need a lot of growing up to do before being thrown in the wild bewildering sexual forrest.

But we, adults in our 30′s and above, do we really need such guidance?  We have seen the world enough at our age to know what works and what doesn’t work in our life and what to do about it.  At this age, in fact experimenting about sex is perhaps the safest.  We at least know what to expect.

The Catholic Church -like most institutionalized religions- is about control of the masses (and they want total control of the women’s bodies/reproduction rights), nothing to do with happiness.  You’re right on that too.

177. 179
AnnieC

@Kat

You said:

“You see sex as having a place in a committed relationship only and view others who don’t share your values with nothing short of a “disgusted shock.”

Lol..I knew this was your attitude which is why I’ve questioned you. What an assumption.!!

I do not, and nor have I ever stated, that I think sex ONLY has a place in a relationship. What I have said, is that the BEST sex, you can have is only in a committed relationship.

It is the stock standard response in society.I’ve heard it all before…although I must admit, “disgusted shock” is a new one. I am not ‘disgusted” or “shocked” over casual sex. It is 2 people rubbing their genitals together. Whoop-di-doo.

I am 100% sure however, that it is not the best sex possible, nor a good plan of attack, if you want the best physical and emotional relationship in the long term. And this is what religious groups, attempt to teach people. In this regard, they are spot on.

Once more time kat, I am not a prude, I am not “stuck” in a conservative place, I am not uncomfortable with sexuality and I do not view sex with disgusted shock.

The best possible sex, is simply not casual sex. I would never encourage people to believe this, anymore than Evan encourages women to go for the hot chemistry guy. It doesn’t work, and quite frankly, people are missing out.

@186

Goldie, You said “Why would they have this end goal in mind?… That’s not why they put those rules in place at all.

Why wold they NOT have that end goal in mind? What did you think their intention was, to create miserable human beings?

One of the defining qualities of Judaism is to protect and serve those that are weaker, meaning children first, women 2nd and men last. And when they say weakness, they mean vulnerability.

“Why would a church that teaches things like “wife should fear her husband””

Catholic men(and christians) who are taught the doctrine correctly, are taught to revere, protect and have a healthy does of fear over their wives.

@185

It is the complexity that makes the best possible sex. Having sex with a person you care about(only) and ensuring it is an emotional experience, makes you vulnerable. This creates far deeper intimacy and much greater and more powerful sexual connection as you learn how to understand and please each other.

It brings the “human relationship” into the masturbatory event of sex.

I suspect that people who no longer fear sex(Ie it’s emotional influence), fear intimacy instead.

178. 180
Katarina Phang

Annie, in the ideal world yes perhaps the best sex is in the one that takes place in relationship but that’s obviously not the case.  A lot of people are in relationship in which sex is dysfunctional.  Ever heard of sexless marriage?

I’m all for intimacy in relationship: it’s mighty important and I don’t want to get into another relationship without this part is taken care of first and foremost, I agree, but relationship makes the best sex?  Uh-uh…I don’t think so.  Marital sex, as we know, is something that goes out the window very quickly in so many couples.

The Catholic Church mainly cares about proliferation of their dogmas and followers (hence procreate….more of you, more money in our organization).  It’s about power.  It doesn’t care about your emotional well-being.  If your husband is impotent, you’re going to live with that for the rest of your life anyway…no exception.

179. 181
OriginalSin

Dating should be less about matching outward circumstances than meeting your inner necessity.

180. 182
Goldie

@ #189

“Why wold they NOT have that end goal in mind? What did you think their intention was, to create miserable human beings?”

Their intention was to shape human beings in the image of God, in order to prepare them for eternal life. 40-50 years of crappy marriage can serve as a character-building experience, it’s all part of a divine plan, nothing happens by accident, if your marriage is crappy, then it’s crappy for a reason, bla bla bla.

Why do you think I stayed married so long – because I believed that stuff.

Judaism is a completely different animal, BTW. As religions go, I like it better.

“The best possible sex, is simply not casual sex”

I cannot argue with this statement – a close, functional relationship with a person you care about, who cares about you, is indeed where the best possible sex lies. But, for middle-aged divorced people with kids in HS/college, what are the odds of finding that one special person for the rest of their lives? and what are they supposed to do while they wait for that special person, who may or may not turn up? support the vibrator industry? And isn’t it a tad ridiculous for two mature adults to act like they’re in high school – oh no, I can’t go to your place, I’m not supposed to, mom will kill me if she finds out… Please, we’re old enough and life is short.

That said, if a person knows he’s likely to get attached as a result of premature intimacy, I’m willing to respect that, and take things slow.

It’s all on a case-by-case basis, the end goal being that everyone has a good time, and not at each other’s expense

181. 183
Margo

Wow! I actually agree with St. Stephen on something: Homosexuality IS a perversion. It’s not normal according to to God or nature. That’s an indisputable fact.

1. 183.1
Evan Marc Katz

And I think this just goes to show that you and I, Margo, wouldn’t agree on very much in real life.

182. 185
Katarina Phang

Margo, homosexuality is actually part of nature.  There are gay genes in every species, believe it or not.  It is indeed natural ’cause these animals/people don’t choose to be gay, as we don’t choose to be heterosexual.

183. 186
Ms. Bee

Bettina says: If you can throw some stats around, too, you can get your generalization to pass for an unassailable truth. Which lots of people here in the US want to do in support of the same cliched, unimaginative ideas about male/female relationships. These folks are obstructionists.

100% agreed. As a feminist, this is what I’m working to deconstruct. I’m fighting the generalizations that people try to pass as unassailable truths. Too many people, though, have had dating experiences go sour for them, or aren’t getting what they want out of the opposite sex, so they prefer to stick to those same cliched, unimaginative ideas.

Saint Stephen says: “I’m not misogynist. What I loathe is loosed women whith huge sexual appetite (slut to be more precise) cos they tend to lack self-disipline.”

I have excellent self-discipline. But I don’t need to prove it to a young man on the Internet who’s got a lot of life ahead of him to learn and change. Here’s a better idea: Hold out for a woman with a small sexual appetite, and keep others’ fun in the bedroom none of your business, as it should be.

Saint Stephen says: ladies (I mean the slutty ones) contributed to erectile dysfunction men are now suffering from, so why complaining?”

I was sexually assaulted in college, and it caused me to desire sex less. Should I blame all men for that, too? That would be “fair,” right? Well, I think it would be silly, but that’s just me.

Saint Stephen says: @Karl R & Nathan i think that the problem appears to be that the number of guys that tend to reason like you guys do are quite high in Minority and no amount of intellectual debate can change how men have been hard-wired to think.

Oh, I agree that the problem is that reasonable people are in the minority. But it’s not about how people are “hard-wired to think,” it’s that intellectual debate is not valued in America – sloganeering and generalizations are much more fun, and are part and parcel of our media culture – so we stick with pat, quick generalizations like you’ve made.

Saint Stephen says: News flash- things haven’t changed much since the 1950s and guess what Karl R, many women are still getting dumped for giving it up too early, so your claim that most men are evolved is a serious disservice to women looking to find love. yes men still pay for dates like the 1950s, and unlike men, women still feel insulted when called sluts. so whats the difference Karl R? what really changed?

Well, women have outpaced men in college graduation rates, make up half of all medical students, and are catching up to men in earnings, too. More men are becoming custodial fathers – there’s one in my family – and more dads are becoming stay-at-homes, such as ladies’ husbands right here on this blog. Blacks don’t have to ride at the back of the bus or sit at separate lunch counters – in fact, a black man is currently the President of the United States. Gays can openly serve in the military, marry in several states, and are guaranteed domestic-partner benefits at top Fortune 500 companies in all 50 states. HIV is no longer a death sentence – in fact, the first wave of treated HIV patients are now senior citizens. Want more examples? I could go on all night.

Saint Stephen says: Research findings did also prove that human-immuno-defficiency virus is 10 times smaller than the hole in condom. the virus is 10 nano-meter while the holes on condoms are hundred nanometer. so it will take luck to save you if involved with someone who had contacted the virus.

The virus is too large to permeate condoms. Condoms need to be torn, or used incorrectly, for transmission to occur. Serodifferent couples have been using condoms for sex successfully for years with very low rates of seroconversion. HIV transmission is also related to viral load and the number of exposures. Nice try scaring people off from sex, but there was not one medically correct fact in what you wrote.

nathan says: “Ingrained” as a result of hundreds of years of patriarchal social conditioning suggesting that men are free to have as many partners during a lifetime as they please, but women cannot (without being shamed and discarded).  Please go do some research on the history of social conditioning around gender.

A refreshing comment if I’ve ever seen one. Totally agreed.

Margo says: Homosexuality IS a perversion. It’s not normal according to to God or nature. That’s an indisputable fact.

I don’t much care what people who structure their lives around a belief system I don’t share think of me. I was born attracted to all genders (there are more than two). I love people, and gender means nothing to me. Don’t like it? Don’t be around me, and only stick with people who won’t challenge your ideas of who people should love and associate with. In the meantime, I’ll work on winning the marriage fight and getting more rights for people like me.

184. 187
AnnieC

@190

Kat, one of my closest friends, is a man who is a Relationship counsellor. He is also a catholic professor of theology and philosophy and his passion is human relationships, particularly the sexual kind.

He’s taught me a lot.

He is also, in a sexless marriage.

He still supports his views. You think he would have changed his mind given his experiences. He hasn’t. The reason he still supports the views is because he didn’t follow the doctrine. He didn’t understand it at the time, hence he made his mistakes.

We had many discussions and although my former passionate hate of religion surely got to him, he continued to remain patient with me, be my friend and teach me. He got it wrong in his life, and he doesn’t want others to do the same.

So I know there are sexless marriages, but what people seem to think the cure for this is sexual liberation, Casual sex, porn, and non-monogamy. That isn’t the cure, it makes things worse in the long run.

I am sorry for every person that is in a sexless relationship. I pity any man and women who have forgotten how to make-love.

The fundamental principal that achieves good sex, is good communication. To achieve good communication, you restrict more basic desires(like immediate sex), to slowly see if you have a good friendship and compatibility and most importantly, genuine respect. This shows itself in conflict resolution also. Then you wait, and allow sex to be something you experience with the person you’ve committed to only, and you end up with very passionate love-making. In theory at least

And no the catholic churches rules around sex, are not “based’ on procreation. They do recognize that the end result of sex, is a child.

Believe it or not, their rules, were intended to protect women and children. That’s a whole other discussion which I’m willing to join into, but I’m not “pro-catholic” or “pro-religion”. I just realize that many people, like myself, have misunderstood their intentions and refuse to listen, when they actually have a lot to teach us.

@192

I’m very fond of judaism myself, even as an athiest. But I do agree with the catholic church on, “remaining together” is character building. But it comes with a Caveat that is also based on their relgion.

Agape love. To love, is to give. You gave, your spouse did not. The reason it didn’t work, is because 1 party, didn’t fullfill their duty.

So the failure, isn’t in the belief, it is the inability of your former partner to follow it.

Both partners in a marriage need to understand and believe in Agape love. Otherwise, you just end up unhappy.

I am sorry you went through that.

185. 188
Saint Stephen

@Noele (195)
And how exactly does posting an idiotic link to animals indulging in the act refutes the obvious?
Even most colleges during exams don’t allow for citing Wikipedia as a source of reference. Reason been that anyone can pretty much edit it to suit his/her claims.   for example- i could just click on Edit and add that those animals also worshiped Unicorn and that’s what the next viewer will likely be reading.
Furthermore, Except in organisms that can produce asexually, The normal mating code/ritual for every animal, is the male and female having coitus to produce off-springs to ensure continuity of their species. So pointing at animals who indulges in the act doesn’t make it normal… it only means they strayed. which still boils down to perversion.

186. 189
Goldie

As an aside, and I don’t mean anyone personally on this thread, every married guy that has ever hit on me in my life, swore up and down that he was in a sexless marriage. For some reason they love the number seven. It was always, “I haven’t had sex with my wife in seven years”. Oldest line in the book. Not to say that sexless marriages don’t exist, I just suspect that there are a lot less of them than we’re being told.

187. 190
Ruby

Homosexuality may not be the norm, but that doesn’t make it perverted. It has been around for thousands of years, and it’s not going away any time soon.

Oh, and many thanks to Ms. Bee!

188. 191
Helen

Margo wrote: “Homosexuality IS a perversion. It’s not normal according to to God or nature.”

Two things about this: first, I’m always amazed when people think they can read God’s mind, and claim to know what God wants, what God views as normal, what God considers evil, etc. It’s all the more proof to me that God is purely a human construct.

Second, I wonder if we polarize “homosexuality” vs. “heterosexuality” too much (just as we polarize alpha vs. beta males). Yes, the sex urge may have evolved because reproduction is how we propagate a species (or genes, as Richard Dawkins would say). But romantic love and companionship are quite different and do not necessarily follow the dictates of sex for reproduction. I would venture to say that most of us do not fall at just one end of the spectrum of hetero- vs. homo-; that in reality, we fall somewhere in the vast middle space along the spectrum.  As such, how can we define what is “normal”?  Only by what we see in society (mostly hetero couples), which is not really a reflection of the complexity of our preferences.

189. 192
Karl R

Stephen said: (#199)
“So pointing at animals who indulges in the act doesn’t make it normal… it only means they strayed. which still boils down to perversion.”

perversion: defined (in the dictionary) as “any abnormal means of obtaining sexual satisfaction.”

According to Nathan Bailey, an evolutionary biologist:
“Examples of same-sex behavior can be found in almost all species in the animal kingdom — from worms to frogs to birds — making the practice nearly universal among animals.”

If you’d like to read an academic paper on the evolutionary basis for it, there’s a paper published in Trends in Ecology & Evolution, Volume 23, Issue 12, 24 October 2008.

There are Darwinian benefits to same-sex behaviors, even if those behaviors don’t directly lead to reproduction. Dogs will mount each other as a method of demonstrating dominance. Dominant dogs get more breeding opportunities. Therfore, by engaging in same-sex behavior, the dog gets more opportunities to mate with the opposite sex.

Among dolphins the same-sex behavior builds intra-community bonds. Since the survival of the individual is heavily dependent upon the community, the same-sex behavior increases the survival of all members of the community.

Continuity of the species involves a lot more than the momentary act of males fertilizing the eggs of females.

Given that biologists believe the practice is nearly universal, and new research shows how the behavior serves an evolutionary purpose, that would indicate that it’s not abnormal, and therefore not a perversion … at least by any rational use of those terms.

Would you mind explaining what you think the animals strayed from, Stephen?

190. 193
Ms. Bee

Helen wrote: Second, I wonder if we polarize “homosexuality” vs. “heterosexuality” too much (just as we polarize alpha vs. beta males). Yes, the sex urge may have evolved because reproduction is how we propagate a species (or genes, as Richard Dawkins would say).

We definitely do, because polarizing everything makes for more efficient discussion. I identify as pansexual – or, gender is irrelevant to me, including gender outside the binary. On the Kinsey Scale, where 0 is “Exclusively Heterosexual,” and 6 is “Exclusively Homosexual,” I am between a 3 and a 4. That is, I have a slight preference for women, at least sexually. My life partner is male because that’s just how it worked out, but I am definitely slightly more sexually attracted to women. My partner is a 2, meaning he generally prefers women sexually, but is also attracted to men at times.

We socialize every weekend with tons of people who fall somewhere in the middle of the Kinsey Scale, just like us, and have dated plenty of people like that, too. Calling yourself “bisexual,” or “pansexual,” or “queer,” can be challenging. You struggle to be accepted by gays and straights. Many straight men are ok with my orientation – and just as many others are either threatened by it or think “Jackpot! Three-way!” (Sorry, buddy, never gonna happen.) Straight women sometimes worry I’m going to hit on them. Lesbians worry I’ll leave them for a man or bring infections into their community. Google “bisexual erasure,” and you’ll read some interesting new things.

Currently, it’s sort of trendy for women to flirt with other women and make out with them at clubs to snag men. I’m all for people having fun, but people make the mistake of lumping me in with those women (who are predominantly college-aged), and reality couldn’t be further from that. Though extroverted, I’m actually very reserved in terms of showing affection when I go out in public, so much so that people sometimes think I’m single even with my partner next to me! Because so many bi/pan/queer people aren’t out, and because it’s easy to mistake them for straight or gay, depending on who they partner with, I think many people aren’t aware of us.

I think the same reasoning applies to “alpha vs. beta” and “nice guy vs. bad boy,” and “introvert vs. extrovert,” and all of those other polar opposite archetypes we like to talk about. For example, my guy wears a leather jacket, has long hair, and has done edgy modeling (“bad boy”), but he also fusses over me and will drop anything for a friend or lover (“nice guy”). And I love to be the life of the party and meet new faces (extrovert), but sometimes feel overwhelmed by it all and hang out at home (introvert). We all have personas and behaviors we adopt at different times and in different situations, and there’s a little bit of every archetype in each of us at least once in a while.

1. 193.1
Evan Marc Katz

To Ms. Bee, Helen, and other women who provide for nuanced and intelligent discourse. I appreciate your input and insight, but to be clear, the reason that I make sweeping generalizations about men and women on here is because, a) they’re generally true, and b) I HAVE to.

Not every 1000 word blog post can acknowledge the exceptions to every rule. My job is to give the rules.

Which is why it gets pretty tiring when someone gets on here and says “I asked out my husband and it worked!” or “I held out for my George Clooney and it worked!” Good for you. A broken clock is right twice a day, too, but it doesn’t mean that we want to plan our schedules around it. You dig? Of COURSE there’s a spectrum between alpha and beta and hetero and homo. That doesn’t mean I can’t give advice that applies to the majority of women who are attracted to A-type males, for example, and generally be accurate.

191. 194
Helen

Evan, my comments definitely weren’t meant to target you.  Actually they weren’t meant to target anyone.  It was largely my reaction to the notion that homosexuality deviates from the norm and is therefore a perversion.  Perversion actually has a very negative definition according to the dictionary, and I do not believe it accurately applies to homosexuality.

192. 195
Ms. Bee

Evan wrote: to be clear, the reason that I make sweeping generalizations about men and women on here is because, a) they’re generally true, and b) I HAVE to.
Not every 1000 word blog post can acknowledge the exceptions to every rule. My job is to give the rules.
Which is why it gets pretty tiring when someone gets on here and says “I asked out my husband and it worked!” or “I held out for my George Clooney and it worked!” Good for you.

And since I’ve already acknowledged several times that I’m not someone you’d see as a client, I assumed that was understood, and that I could move ahead without further caveat.

We are aware we are presenting less common viewpoints. Since most people are straight, I’ve been reminded every day, for many years, that I’m in the minority. But just like your clients and the men who post on here, we’re sharing our stories and points of view, and discussing and debating the challenging, exciting, and sometimes harrowing world of dating because it interests us. Though I can’t speak for other women who hold minority viewpoints, I’m not here for the articles or the dating advice – I don’t even read most of that, since it doesn’t apply. I’m here for the discussion. I stop by, and read the threads, and sometimes, throw in my two cents, because talking about dating is fun.

193. 196
Greg

Been reading this blog for the last two months.  Excellent blog.  Very realistic advice.  This thread was very interesting before it was hijacked by a pointless debate on homosexuality.  I’ve noticed a few things over the weeks that have really made me shake my head.  One thing is that some people are obsessed with sex and expect it to bring them happiness.  An example is Goldie (#177)

How can you have “the best sex possible” when you’re either pregnant or breastfeeding, and taking care of multiple older children, at all times?…Now I respect her and her husband’s decision to raise a large family, but how in the world can they have the best sex possible in this situation?

Obviously this couple places greater emphasis on raising successful children than how great their sex life is.  I’m sure more people remember their kids first steps, words or graduation, than their last orgasm.  Even if kids are not involved there are much greater and lasting memories that couples share together and that bring happiness.  Giving and sharing has always brought the most meaning and joy to me. When you’re old and dying I sure hope you have much more meaningful memories than a few quick romps.

194. 197
Saint Stephen

@Karl R (#203)
And when did animals become the moral or standard compass to gauge human act as been normal or abnormal?
Animals have sex with their mum, father, brother, sister, older and younger without it been labeled as incest or pedophilia.
Nature designed the primary purpose of sex for reproduction and pleasure, therefore any act that is clearly aimed at usurping the other is solely dysfunctional.
This is not a matter of having it in genes or not, is a matter of being normal or abnormal. if i was born having the gene of a suicide bomber still doesn’t justify or make it right to become one.
as Humans we have the power to control of our lives, not what some fucking genes tells us.
During the debate in California that ensued the introduction of Gay subjects and lectures in school, one of the key testifier against it was a homosexual woman who happened to have been perfectly cured out of it, and the woman was there with facts and evidence to prove it, however what i noticed and took cognizance of while watching was the strict time adhering to the opposing team, while those in support where allowed to have all the time, then it immediately dawned on me that the debate was merely an eyewash- the verdict has already been determined prior to the debate.

A conference was held in the Detroit where some doctors seem to be coming out with some evidence to support pedophilia by those exhibiting it as part of their genetic makeup. while at this fresh stage it is very much in contention….  yet i won’t be surprised if further research is extensively done to prove it.
Nontheless if suddenly all evidences are produced… will it suddenly make a 360 degree turn to be regarded as normal sexual behavior?

Karl R, to answer you question, they strayed from the normal/basic mating theme.
Perhaps this link will shed more light why homosexuality in humans is perverted. http://www.personal.psu.edu/glm7/m160.htm

195. 198
Katarina Phang

Annie, it’s really your opinion what works in the long run or short run.

Are you suggesting that those who are looking for relationship but it just doesn’t happen as quickly as they hope (well, it’s not easy to find the right one you know and one shouldn’t settle just so one can have sex in a “committed relationship”) should remain celibate until they are in a committed relationship?

Wow….that sounds like the Sex Nazi (a spin off of the Soup Nazi).  How realistic can it be?

As I said, live a little.  Enjoy life.  It’s perfect if you are having sex with the one you will love forever and after now -it’s what most of us want- but if you aren’t it’s no skin off anybody’s nose!  Seriously.  You still can have a satisfying sexual and emotional life doing just that.  Even when naysayers with their psycho babbles will adamantly say otherwise without knowing the nuts or bolts of every one’s situation.

196. 199
Katarina Phang

Saint Stephen says: “I’m not misogynist. What I loathe is loosed women whith huge sexual appetite (slut to be more precise) cos they tend to lack self-disipline.”
Ms Bee #197
I have excellent self-discipline. But I don’t need to prove it to a young man on the Internet who’s got a lot of life ahead of him to learn and change. Here’s a better idea: Hold out for a woman with a small sexual appetite, and keep others’ fun in the bedroom none of your business, as it should be.

Exactly, to each their own.

And saint stephen, for Moses’s sake, now you hate God for making these women hypersexed?

The sex conservatives should just care about their own sex lives and stick to whatever values that suit them.  But maybe they should also ask, has this worked for me?  And if it hasn’t can they reflect on it without blaming it on others?

197. 200
Karl R

Stephen said: (#209)
“And when did animals become the moral or standard compass to gauge human act as been normal or abnormal?”

You’re clearly not using human behavior in order to determine whether a human act is normal or abnormal (there is documented evidence of homosexuality being practiced and accepted in multiple cultures for at least the last several millenia).

So if you’re not using human behavior as your standard for what is normal, and you’re not using animal behavior as your standard for what’s normal…

What are you using as your standard for what’s normal or abnormal? Your own opinion? The opinion of Rick Fitzgibbons? (He’s an adjunct professor at the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family at Catholic University and a consultant to the Congregation for Clergy at the Vatican … not exactly an unbiased source you chose to link to.)

Stephen said: (#209)
“This is not a matter of having it in genes or not, is a matter of being normal or abnormal.”

Are you saying that normal/abnormal is based upon the majority/minority regardless of genes?

Are left-handed people abnormal? Are blue-eyed people abnormal?

Stephen said: (#209)
“as Humans we have the power to control of our lives, not what some fucking genes tells us.”

By the way, are you acknowledging that there is a genetic component to same-sex attraction? Is it your position that people with homosexual desires shouldn’t act on that attraction because you believe those desires are abnormal?

Stephen said: (#209)
“if i was born having the gene of a suicide bomber still doesn’t justify or make it right to become one.”

Which gene or gene-sequence is associated with suicide bombers?

Is your arguement so weak that you have to make shit up in order to prove it?

Stephen said: (#209)
“Nature designed the primary purpose of sex for reproduction and pleasure, therefore any act that is clearly aimed at usurping the other is solely dysfunctional.”

My fiancée is post-menopausal. She is no longer capable of reproducing. Are you suggesting that by remaining sexually faithful to her (and not cheating with a fertile twenty-something) I’m being sexually dysfunctional?

We’re having sex for fun. We have no intention of reproducing. The same could be said of every couple that continues sexual activity into old age and every heterosexual couple that practices birth control.

Are we all abnormal? Just because we engage in sex for pleasure instead of for reproduction?

Is artificial insemination also dysfunctional? It usurps the pleasure “purpose” in order to accomplish reproduction.

If you believe that practices sex for pleasure without reproduction (or vice versa) is abnormal, then you’ve labeled the majority as being abnormal.

Are you using a different dictionary than the rest of us?

1. 200.1
Evan Marc Katz

Okay, everyone…stop beating up on St. Stephen, easy target though he may be. He stumbled onto a blog with more progressive ideals (not to mention a better grasp on logic) and he’s been handily taught a lesson. Back to our original programming.

198. 201
Ms. Bee

Stephen, there’s been evidence supporting genetic tendencies toward criminal behavior, such as murder, arson, and serial theft, for years. Adding pedophilia to the list would not indicate a groundbreaking scientific discovery. Homosexuality is not analogous to pedophilia, though, because two adults engaging in sex acts can give consent. Children, legally, cannot consent to sex, making pedophilia a crime. (This is also why rape is a crime – it’s a violation of the victim’s body, absent consent.)

As for your link, it should come as no surprise that if society treats a certain set of feelings or ways of being as deviant, people who feel those feelings will develop depression and anxiety, and may turn to substance abuse to deal with feeling rejected by society. You’ll see this in any minority group – the unemployed, the homeless, the people who can’t make ends meet in a country where money is king, the lone black or Asian child in an all-white school, and often, as is displayed in these comments, the single. Any time the way we are does not mimic the way dominant society says we should be, we’re at risk for developing mental health issues and other troubles. But dominant society continues to evolve as time marches on. Meanwhile, when people stop being alone in who they are or how they feel, and keep working toward constructive solutions to their troubles, they can frequently resolve their feelings of isolation, depression, and anxiety.

This is one reason dating services like this one exist, I imagine – to give women who feel lonely and powerless in a coupled-up world the tools they need to find the love they want. I’m sure that as women sign up for dating coaches or services, read other peoples’ stories, and bond over common experiences here in the comments, they learn that they’re not alone. That solutions exist. And perhaps most importantly, they discover that pretty much everyone feels like the reject, the loser, or the aberration sometimes.

199. 202
Goldie

@ Greg #208, now wait a minute.

“One thing is that some people are obsessed with sex and expect it to bring them happiness.  An example is Goldie (#177)”.

WHAT. THE. HELL? Who does this to people???

My comment, that you quoted, was in response to another commenter’s statement that a Catholic marriage is designed to provide the best sex possible. It was a counter-argument to that statement, not an invitation to discuss my obsessions, or my priorities in life, real or imaginary.

“When you’re old and dying I sure hope you have much more meaningful memories than a few quick romps.”

200. 203
Goldie

St. Stephen is doing an amazing job beating up on himself.

Personally, I’m kind of relieved that he came out with all the bizarre statements he did. His last comments pretty much invalidated all the things he’d posted previously, and some of those were incredibly vile and toxic. I gave him a break because I’m old enough to be his mother, but those “slut” posts made me cringe. Oh well, they have now lost what little credibility they had. Whew.

201. 204
Ruby

I’ve gotta say. between the sex-obsessed “sluts” with too-high sex-drives, the single women who engage in casual sex (sluts again), the single women who are too damned picky (doomed to lives of abject loneliness), and the deviant homosexuals, who is really being beaten up on here?

202. 205
AnnieC

@210

I’m certainly not going to suggest celibacy. That would drive a lot of people nuts.

But I do question the belief that it takes “forever” to find the “one”. Mainly because there is no “one”. People are looking for relationships that fullfill them and so they demand perfection.

The issue is ultimately not about sex, but about how we approach and realisticly view relationships. The sex is the iceing on the cake, and can be a very powerful bonding experience, if it is “contained”(willingly, but not through force)

So yes, whatever works for people go for it. I just strongly disagree with the messages permeating society telling people to just “go for it”..only for them to wind up hurt, because they’ve been sold a bill of goods.

I share a different voice, so that those in doubt, might gain something from it. And it has nothing to do ..with prudity

203. 206
AnnieC

@209

No-one here is saying that because something may be a natural inclination, it is by “Default” in society fine.

It is not okay, morally, for a 60 yr old man, to pursue a 14 year old girl. But I do believe there is a natural inclination toward this.

It is natural for people who are gay, to be attracted to each other, and since it does no damage, it is morally okay. It is also shown that it occurs in nature, and can be beneficial to social bonding from an evolutionary perspective.

On the other spectrum, it is also beneficial to humans to have very young females, to biologically pro-create as their bodies are very healthy.   But we do not allow it. Why?

It is not good for our society and our young people. So we restrict our nature using moral and ethical grounds for a greater good.

We need a rational reason as to why we stop humans from doing something, such as homosexuality. And so far, no good reasons have been given.  Saying “It’s just wrong…cause it’s abnormal” is meaningless. It’s a circular argument and not one that is rational.

204. 207
Goldie

@ AnnieC #218: “I just strongly disagree with the messages permeating society telling people to just “go for it”..only for them to wind up hurt, because they’ve been sold a bill of goods.”

But this is the problem, in a dating market, if people go in with the idea of holding out for when they’re in a committed relationship, they will end up getting hurt anyway, because everybody else is “going for it”. It’s a jungle out there. Either they will slip up and get intimate with their date because they’re only human, and proceed to beat themselves half to death with guilt. Or else they will get intimate on a false assumption that it means they are now in a relationship, when the other person meant nothing of the sort. IMO it’s just a wrong idea to have for a middle-aged person in a dating market, because it is so far removed from reality.

And, maybe, those “going for it” have a valid point, because life is short and none of us are planning on a new marriage and more kids anyway. When in Rome… etc etc

205. 208
Ruby

Annie #219

<<It is not okay, morally, for a 60 yr old man, to pursue a 14 year old girl. But I do believe there is a natural inclination toward this. >>

I’m not sure where are you getting the idea that 60 year old men are “naturally” interested in 14 year olds. I think most adult men are attracted to women who are adults. A 22 year old woman would garner much more interest than a 14 year old. But a 60 year old might equate a much younger woman with his daughter or granddaughter, and have no interest in pursuing someone that much younger.

<<On the other spectrum, it is also beneficial to humans to have very young females, to biologically pro-create as their bodies are very healthy.   But we do not allow it. Why?>>

Health risks to both mother and baby are higher for teenage pregnancies, so I would say that it is definitely not beneficial or healthier. There are many purely medical reasons to minimize teen pregnancies.

206. 209
Helen

Goldie 220, your comment brings us ALL THE WAY BACK to the original point of Evan’s post.  Kind of funny how far we sidetracked from it.

Juliet’s original complaint was that she doesn’t like having to put out on the first date.  But in a New York City dating market that appears, on the surface, to reward such behavior, she feels pressured to do so.

Way back in comment 27, I made the point that not every other place is as high-pressured as NYC.  So if she doesn’t want to compete in her current dating market but still wants to succeed in romance, she should consider moving to another part of the state, or country, or world.  On the other hand, if she has other things tying her to NYC such as a dream job or family or friends, which she values more than a relationship, then it makes sense to stay in NYC; in which case she needs to change her dating game or be okay with relatively lower success.

Pretty simple, no? Not easy, but simple.

207. 210
Goldie

@ Helen #222, If she moves, she’ll “have to” (?) put out on the second or third, which is almost just as bad as the first, and she won’t be in NYC anymore… sounds like a lose-lose situation to me… LOL

In reality of course, no one holds a gun to your head and tells you that you “have to” put out. (If they do, you might be dating in the wrong neighborhood!) What I’ve noticed instead is that, for a lot of people, sex comes way before commitment, and/or the two are not related in any way. IOW, you can sleep with a guy and never hear from him again, other than maybe getting a “we should be friends” text. This was hard to take, for me. I like to give people more follow-up than that if we’ve already gone that far, and was expecting the same towards myself. I’ve got a feeling that Juliet isn’t going to like that, either (so, no point in relocating). But what can you do? you cannot change reality, or the men you date. Only things you can change are your behavior and your attitude, so you 1)minimize the chances of someone pulling a disappearing act on you, and 2)don’t fall to pieces if someone still does. And I cannot give Juliet step-by-step instructions on how to do those things, as I am still working on them myself.

208. 211
Katarina Phang

Annie #218:

Not really forever, what about 2 years or more?  Are you suggesting us not to have sex at all in 2 years or more?

Anyone who isn’t happy being single won’t be happy in relationship anyway. So if sex makes some people’s lives more complete and makes them happy being single, can you blame them to engage in casual sex?

Goldie, yes life is short… people are in different stages in life. There really is NO one rule fits all. The advice for teenagers to wait for sex isn’t really realistic to many of us who have seen all.

Anne, getting hurt, as being happy or miserable, is a CHOICE. It baffles me for many women to think that sex will hurt them. It’s not the sex, it’s the expectation and ignorance. If you are aware that there is no guarantee one way or another, sex won’t do any harm. In fact you will only reap the benefits if you are smart and being adult -as I suppose most of us here are- about it. Sex helps older women grow new brain cells and fight dementia and other health benefits. Think about it.

I was in NY recently for 6 weeks and dating a bit. I didn’t see much difference to other places. I didn’t feel the pressure and the guys were very interested in me (some kept calling and texting asking for more dates -and no we didn’t have sex on first dates). I got hooked on two who are also interested in me and we’re still talking (I went on 5 dates with one of them in 2 weeks and grew to really like him).

I would say out of the 5 guys I saw, all 5 wanted to see me again. Not bad a statistics, huh?

I think it’s probably about attitude. What you believe becomes. I’m writing a book on this: on how to magnetize guys simply because you believe you’re a guy magnet.
To the sex-positive, the answer is obvious….go for it!  You don’t harm anyone doing that.  In fact if people have more sex there will be less war and violence in this world, really!

209. 212
Goldie

I guess the learning for all of us daters here might be this… never assume that the other person has the same take on intimacy as you do.

Here’s what I think should work. If, for you, intimacy does not equal commitment, then this needs to somehow enter the conversation before you two end up in the bedroom. (And yeah, I guess this means not going from zero to sex in ten seconds.) If, on the other hand, for you, intimacy is a big thing and you cannot do casual, then same thing, say it. In my a little over a year of dating, I’ve seen all kinds. I’ve dated guys who assumed sex meant we were now boyfriend and girlfriend, but they hadn’t said a word about it beforehand. They’d just start acting super clingy afterwards. I’ve dated guys (okay, just one guy… I’m generally pretty irresistible, I guess) who assumed sex meant about the same as a handshake. Again, he said nothing, I said nothing, he fell off the face of the earth the next day, and boy, was I surprised! And of course the reason I was surprised is that I had indulged in some assumptions myself (not that we’d be gf/bf, but that we would at least meet again and hang out), and I also hadn’t taken the time to talk to him about it. I just assumed we both shared this same view. Just like, with the clingy ones, I’d always assumed we were both on the same page. Probably hurt them a lot, poor guys

To this day, I have only met two people who came out, well before anything happened in the bedroom, and told me where they stood. (One is more of a “go for it” persuasion, the other one a “I don’t do casual” type.) This helped. A LOT. And I am sure it will also help me stay friends with them both long-term. (Heck, there may even be a relationship in the cards, who knows?) I realize it takes enormous emotional maturity to acknowledge and say something like this (more than I have!) But I found this approach really really helpful. Personally I’m going to try to do the same in the future – keep that communication channel open Maybe, by saying something about where I stand, I’ll even get the other person to open up and share his position with me too.

210. 213
JustMe

Annie

I heard every point you made. I understand and appreciate what you were saying.  I kept reading your words and thinking, “me too, me too”.  I also read Katarina’s comments about how she is “sex positive” and “liberated” to mean that someone with her views were progressive.  Those who didn’t have sex freely were “prudes”, “conservatives” and less evolved.

I am like you.  I have tried casual sex.  I found it empty.  I felt worse afterward, not because of GUILT, but because sex can be such an amazing, incredible experience when the emotional connection is present. Sex without the emotional component was just sad.

Somehow this will make me “sexually conservative” when in reality I love having sex with someone special, OFTEN!  I am very GGG and advertuous.

I am like Katarina in that I have sex when I want, and I want to wait for a exclusive relationship.  I used to say that I didn’t know what “ho-hum” sex was because I had never had it – until I experienced casual sex.  I’ll pass on that and wait for the real thing, thanks

211. 214
Katarina Phang

Justme, while your personal experience is as valid as mine, I don’t tell you guys that one should follow one way.  I am consistent that everyone is different, and they shouldn’t be judged for what works for them personally.

I’m not here to tell anyone what is right and moral for them.  I say THERE IS NO ONE RULE THAT FITS ALL. So you need commitment to have sex, good for you!  Stick to it but don’t enforce your values upon others who are wired differently to you.

Can we agree on that?

212. 215
Annie

@220

It does get back to the heart of the matter. If you do it “just because everyone else does”, you really are just competing with other women, and not having “sex” because you really want to. This is particularly prevalent on college campuses. Women are quickly losing interest in sex, because it is so terrible. They are having it(sometimes), because everyone else does or because they are supposed to. You can’t learn good sex, through a string of casual encounters. Not good, for their future relationships. And men, cannot learn to be good lovers. I really think this ultimately has the capacity to create long-term sexual dysfunction, but I guess we will see.

The right man for you, will wait. It is that simple.

@221

I was probably stretching it a bit when I compared 60 to 14(though I have no doubt those people are out there). My point to St Stephen, was more about morality. We can see something that is entirely natural, such as a much older male, desiring a young healthy(Post-pubescent) female, but we stop it because of the effect it has. It’s not unnatural, it’s just not good for society.

But when some-one say’s something is “unnatural” or bad such as homosexuality(like St Stephen is saying), I have not really read one good reason as to why this is bad for people who are gay/lesbian or society.

Morality(ethics) to me, has to be based on rational reasons and cause and effect, not just because some-one say’s so, or because it is a minority behaviour.

@227

Nobody has forced their values on you. This appears however, to be what you are doing to others.

Being told we are prudes, stuck in a conservative place, not positive about sex(obviously negative “values), you claim there is no one rule that fits all…but those without your rules are obviously not “mature”.(your newest “insult”)

It is never ending in this society. And on that, I rest my case

213. 216
Annie

@226

Thanks wading through all my posts and I appreciate your response. And I agree with you (obviously..hehe)

214. 217
Katarina Phang

Annie, anyone who judges others’ way of approaching sex is not particularly sex positive.  Not in my book, anyway.

And prudes do exist, so are sexual conservatives…and all are a relative term, of course.  And I didn’t start using those terms until you started stream rolling those (especially me) who didn’t see casual sex as negatively as you do.

And people learn about how to be good in bed in all different ways, so again you can’t generalize.  I didn’t have sex in college (not in the manner you depicted:sleeping around in campus or something), but my sexual experience in my 20′s though some were good and some were not so, before I went monogamous for 9 years in my early 20′s shaped who I am today.

215. 218
Katarina Phang

And Annie, just because you’re triggered by my usage of “sexually liberated” or “sex positive” and react to it defensively as if I was attacking you personally, it doesn’t mean I’m enforcing my values on you.  It’s your problem that you are triggered and interpreting it as you are the opposite of the above (which I never said or claimed in my original posts, but you inferred).  That’s something you have to resolve within yourself.

216. 219
Goldie

@ Annie: Thank you for your kind words.

“The right man for you, will wait. It is that simple.”

Yah the right man probably will (though not indefinitely). So will the creepy, the needy, the desperate, the one that hasn’t had any in ten years and I am his last chance. My point is, I don’t want to factor this variable into the equation at all. I don’t want to give the man extra points for waiting, especially since it’s not that critical to me that we wait. I’m really cool with whatever the guy is comfortable with. If he wants to wait to be sure, and if he’s fun to be around otherwise, I’ll be happy to wait with him (though probably, again, not indefinitely). If he doesn’t feel like waiting, that’s cool too – as long as none of us wakes up the next morning thinking that the other one owes him or her commitment now, it’s all in good fun.

It’s not about peer pressure, what peer pressure? I’m 44. It’s been at least 20 years since I last felt any kind of peer pressure. It’s about communication, making sure you’re on the same page, being aware of each other’s expectations, and respecting them as much as is physically possible.

217. 220
Katarina Phang

Goldie, love your post above and spot on.  I think we have beaten the horse to death.  Waiting is only important for those who think waiting is important and the right guys come in all shapes and forms depending on the people involved and the values they hold…there is no one single way to assess them over.  Those who don’t give so much weight on waiting as if it would make and break a courtship doesn’t give much thought about it, nor does it effect them in any adversarial way.

Just don’t understand why some people can’t grasp it.

218. 221
Annie

@232

Yeah I get what you are saying(I think). I won’t give a man points, simply for waiting.

I will give a man points, for waiting, if I’ve explained my reasons, and he’s thought about them and respects them.

I will give a man huge points if he’s come to the same conclusion that I have, and doesn’t want to dilute his sexual experiences. He restricts his behaviour, so that his future relationship (particularly sexually) is much more special due to self-restraint. This will help us to remain faithful and create a powerful bond.

Because of this some-what emotional quagmire we get into(particularly over sex), rules have helped us in the past. Most people don’t want to hurt others, and most of us are driven by strong desires that can make us selfish. That’s why ‘rules’ that you simply follow and accept no matter your desires often work out better in the long run.

Trying to figure it out on the fly, depending on emotions doesn’t work.

I like Evans advice around when men genuinely like women. It’s very clear cut. It’s a set of rules..where no matter what you may feel or believe, you can intellectually see what is going on and not let your immediate feelings run your life. It does take some self-restraint and belief to follow it.

219. 222
Sharon

“He restricts his behaviour, so that his future relationship (particularly sexually) is much more special due to self-restraint. This will help us to remain faithful and create a powerful bond.”

@ Annie
That is a HUGE assumption. And I think this is where you can come across as judgmental. Sometimes I have casual sex sometimes I have meaningful sex. Sometimes I have a causal quickie with someone I have a meaningful relationship with sometimes I have a sentimental tryst. The motivation varies with person an circumstance. But that doesn’t compromise my ability to be honest or faithful. I get that you believe abstaining will strengthen your resolve but it comes across backhanded the way you worded it.

220. 223
Saint Stephen

Karl R Said (#212)
So if you’re not using human behavior as your standard for what is normal, and you’re not using animal behavior as your standard for what’s normal…
If i understand you correctly You seem to be saying the standard of judging what’s normal or not, is if the act is performed by animals and humans- In other words  as we seem to have traces of some societies and animals performing incest, then the act becomes normal.

Karl R Said (#212)
The opinion of Rick Fitzgibbons? (He’s an adjunct professor at the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family at Catholic University and a consultant to the Congregation for Clergy at the Vatican … not exactly an unbiased source you chose to link to.)
And because he happens to be all you mentioned are you trying to say we should disregard everything he said regardless of if they are true/real or not? i think this is a paradigm of ignoring the message and shooting the messenger because of what he/she represents.

Karl R Said (#212)
Are you saying that normal/abnormal is based upon the majority/minority regardless of genes?

Are left-handed people abnormal? Are blue-eyed people abnormal?
That wasn’t what i was implying. BTW do left-handed people always suffer depression? do blue-eyed people have a shorter life span? Perhaps what you should have pointed out are the ones with numerous adverse consequences.

Karl R Said: (#212)
By the way, are you acknowledging that there is a genetic component to same-sex attraction? Is it your position that people with homosexual desires shouldn’t act on that attraction because youbelieve those desires are abnormal?
My point exactly.

Karl R Said: (#212)
Which gene or gene-sequence is associated with suicide bombers?

Is your arguement so weak that you have to make shit up in order to prove it?
That was hypothetical so you shouldn’t have picked up on it.

Karl R Said: (#212)
My fiancée is post-menopausal. She is no longer capable of reproducing. Are you suggesting that by remaining sexually faithful to her (and not cheating with a fertile twenty-something) I’m being sexually dysfunctional?
We’re having sex for fun. We have no intention of reproducing. The same could be said of every couple that continues sexual activity into old age and every heterosexual couple that practices birth control.                                                                                    There is a difference of when certain factors have prevented reproduction if you are a woman, than when is perfectly impossible to reproduce cos you are a Man.

Karl R Said: (#212)
Are you using a different dictionary than the rest of us?
No!!… I’m simply going by the dictionary definition of perversion, which means abnormal means of deriving sexual pleasure.

Ms Bee Said: (#214)
Homosexuality is not analogous to pedophilia, though, because two adults engaging in sex acts can give consent. Children, legally, cannot consent to sex.
I wasn’t looking from a perspective of consent. but if we should go by that same logic, i believe Sadomasochism wouldn’t be considered Perversion.

Ms Bee Said: (#214)
As for your link, it should come as no surprise that if society treats a certain set of feelings or ways of being as deviant, people who feel those feelings will develop depression and anxiety.

I do not think this is true…. Because Netherlands Had been used to disprove that logic. There Homosexuals were not discriminated.

For the fact that i mentioned Four types of perversion and almost everyone was quick to single out homosexuality, hence it has come to my notice that homosexuality is a topic that people are very passionate about and would rather go blind than see a ray of light that could show them the way. on that note i desist on commenting further on this issue….. So Karl R et al. please don’t write a rebuttal in other to forestall this thread from veering any further.
We disagree to agree… and one of the reasons i debate/argue is to learn.

221. 224
Katarina Phang

Sharon, I have had lots of meaningful casual sex and meaningless marital sex.  You can’t generalize just because you’re having sex in relationship it’s going to be meaningful, great, mind-boggling all the time.  It’s not for many people hence they look outside their relationship (sure you can attribute it to lack of communication, connection or whatever…but it still doesn’t invalidate the point.)

Things are just not black and white as some people insist.

222. 225
Saint Stephen

Goldie Said: (#186)
Why would they have this end goal in mind?… That’s not why they put those rules in place at all. Why would a church that teaches things like “wife should fear her husband” teach the couples how to strive towards a great, emotionally and physically fullfilling relationship?

That is a Complete Fallacy! Maybe you can tell that to those atheists out there, but not me. Catholic church simply go by the biblical teachings which states that a wife should be submissive to her husband and a Husband should love his wife just as Christ loves the church. Did you equate fear to submissive?…. i’m submissive to my dad yet i do not fear him, and i’m also sure soldiers are aren’t scared of their superiors.
I’m perfectly with Annie on this issue…… the Catholic church teaches or preaches abstinence because they believe that is the key to a healthy/successful lifetime Marriage. If you are a Virgin you do not have anyone to compare your spouse with and you also both have the option of improving simultaneously, which will be quite unlike a woman who had sufficiently sowed her oats.
1) She is likely to keep comparing her partner with her previous encounters.
2) She is far likely to keep wondering/imagining how many better sexual encounters will be out there.
3) As a result of the two previously mentioned  she gets bored easily and because she seldom believe in working things out she can quickly resort to divorce. A study that was published in 2002 confirmed that women who married as virgins had 80% marriage success rates, while the others who weren’t had 50%.
The reason why the Catholic church preaches abstinence is to see you have a happy/healthy/successful lifetime marriage, but definitely not to exert control over members.

223. 226
Saint Stephen

@Katarina Phang (#211)
Why must you go pick a quote of mine that is long past just to get at me?
I never had anyone on this thread in mind when using the “SLUT” word, so if the word got to you then that is entirely your own problem. besides you have labeled those of us commenting in this thread that are sexually conservative as “PRUDES” still we never picked offence because we know we aren’t one.
Hence If you feel insulted then it might just be your conscience pricking you- but definitely not me.
This isn’t the 1950s yet i wonder why many women still feel insulted whenever the Slut word is been used.
Perhaps any woman that feels insulted might want to present me with a better synonym (for a woman with many sexual partners) that isn’t demeaning.

224. 227
Katarina Phang

Saint Stephen, where did I say I took offense to the word “slut”?  FYI, each guy I have had sex with and digs me calls me a slut and I’m proud of it because it’s a compliment.  Sorry to burst your bubbles, but there is no conflict between the way I am and my conscience here.

I was just questioning your credo that you loath what your God creates.  Do you loath God too then?

I’m a slut alright, and I’m proud of it!

Next….

225. 228
AnnieC

@235

Sharon, I’ll try and make this as clear as possible, I know it can be a bit confusing, especially given the sometimes ridiculous moralistic standards some hold combating those that desire a bit of freedom without judgment.If there is no reason to restrain yourself, then why do it?

The reason, I like to be with some-one who has shown constraint, is NOT because I think people who do not, are not capable of it or are some-how “less” than me.

I like it, because of what happens in a sexual relationship WHEN a person has showed constraint.

It is actually quite simple. Our first and early sexual experiences condition us sexually. Our subsequent experiences also. The more partners you have and the more casual your sexual experiences, the more banal it becomes. There is now less of a interdependant bond between a man and a woman. Less vulnerability.

Men and women, who only experience sex with 1 person, can and often do form an incredibly strong bond.  Sex = their partner..not just lust. They therefore attach to their partner, and not the act of sex.(lust)

Sex doesn’t nessecarily have to create that bond in humans however. In free-for all sexual societies(usually matriachal) sex is quite Banal. They are dumbfounded over western worlds obsession with all things sexual since it is meaningless to them. It is not exciting.

My current partner has only been with women that he loved. And as such, because this is the summation of his sexual experiences and his conditioning, he gets very attatched to the woman that he sleeps with. He can’t help it.

And that is exactly the man I want.

As I’ve tried to say, My choice in a partner who shows contraint is not a judgment, it’s because I want a certain type of relationship and sexual experience. Sexuality based on love and not JUST “lust”.  That is something you need to condition yourself to do, through self-constraint by choice.

And that, is what makes Christians say “Sex is the closest one will come to heaven, on this earthly life”. How many people really feel that way these days? In the name of freedom, sex is actually becoming some-what meaningless. A fleeting connection, and recreational pleasure and fun. But no-where near as intense as it can be.

I think that is sad, which is why I suggest doing something different. Hard to go back though.

226. 229
AnnieC

@236

“That wasn’t what i was implying. BTW do left-handed people always suffer depression? do blue-eyed people have a shorter life span? Perhaps what you should have pointed out are the ones with numerous adverse consequences.”

What are the adverse consequences to homosexuality?

227. 230
Sharon

@ Katrina

RE-read post. That was my point.

228. 231
Sharon

@ Stephan

People that choose to not to have sex for religious reason generally choose to stay married for religious reasons whether or not the marriage is happy. Skews the statics.

229. 232
Goldie

@ #238

“If you are a Virgin you do not have anyone to compare your spouse with and you also both have the option of improving simultaneously, which will be quite unlike a woman who had sufficiently sowed her oats.
1) She is likely to keep comparing her partner with her previous encounters.
2) She is far likely to keep wondering/imagining how many better sexual encounters will be out there.”

Hmm, I remember reading these exact points in a religious booklet somewhere, sometime in the late 80s/early 90s. Pretty amazing that these things are still in circulation.

Naturally, these arguments have no ground in reality. No one does all this comparing and wondering in a committed relationship where things are good. People just enjoy what they have, because it is good.

And, if things are not good, both sides will wonder what else is out there anyway, regardless if they are each other’s first partners or not. FTR my ex and I were each other’s first. We didn’t work towards that goal on purpose, it just happened that way. I see nothing especially good or bad about that. Though, in retrospect, I probably wish we’d both been more experienced when we met. It is so much easier to be with a man who already knows how to make a woman feel good, and vice versa.

Also, the Greek version of Eph.5:33 says “the wife should fear her husband”: http://biblos.com/ephesians/5-33.htm Naturally, the newer translations changed it to “respect”, but it still said fear in both the English and the Russian versions that I grew up on. Basically the upshot of it is, the wife should treat the husband as if he is God, and she is the (human) church. There are so many ways to abuse this approach, it makes my head spin. Church cannot tell God what to do, church cannot tell God that he is wrong, the list goes on and on.

You know St.Stephen, after reading your posts, I’ve been thinking that it would behoove you to go out and live the life a little, meet new people from various walks of life, experience new things, get out of your comfort zone. This way, your arguments will be a result of your own thoughts and experiences, not just something you’ve copied and pasted from somewhere. It makes for a better argument.

230. 234
Sharon

@ Katrina

Whoops

231. 235
kimby

Saint Steven’s original comment hit the nail right on the head! That is the way most men think about getting sex too soon from woman. Like most people, they do not value what comes too easily. The woman commenting are getting so upset by his remarks because they do not want to hear the truth. They want things to be the way they want them and not the way they actually are. If Steven would have said “of course It’s possible to for most men to value and appreciate a women who shares her body with him early into the relationship,” every woman on this board would have agreed. Even though i’t's a blatant lie. It also proves my theory that woman love to be lied and pandored to and then when reality slaps them in the face it’s always the other persons fault. Grow up ladies, you can’t have your cake and eat it too… woman want to rewrite thousands of years of biology just to suit their own wants. The man will try to get as much out of you as possible, he will steer the relationship as fast as he can toward sex because men really like sex. It is the woman’s job to control the pace or how fast you get there.. give the man a chance to get to develop feelings for you before you are just another unchallenging notch on his belt. However if you are not looking for a committed or long term relationship with the guy, then by all means pound away. btw I am also a woman.

232. 236
Katarina Phang

Kimby, which part of my statements that you don’t understand that my only 2 LTRs (including a marriage) starts with sex on first dates?

Believe what you want to believe, fact is not all men are like you/saint stephen.  Not even the majority.   Guys I date are nothing like you two and there are a bunch of them.

I don’t say you have to jump to bed right away but early or later is very relative.

233. 238
justme

I have already said that I wait for a commitment.  However, if I had sex with a guy and he thought I had given it up too soon and “de-valued” me for it – I would be very happy to say good -bye to him.  That says a lot about him as a person.  WHY would i want to be with ANYONE who treated other people that way?

234. 239
Saint Stephen

@Justme (#251)
Why do you need to wait to for commitment?
you can go ahead and sleep with a bunch of men on first date and use it as a yardstick to test their character before getting married to them.

Jeez!!.. you ladies make it look like men who judge ladies for putting out too soon are awful. to you yes they maybe…. but to some other ladies they can be the best husbands in the world.

I have reiterated this point a lot on this particular thread- that just as women use non-chivalrous act displayed by Men to dismiss them as potential suitor, so do men use putting out on a first date to do the same. and just like Evan said you can always find exceptions to every rule, but still it doesn’t negate it.

Men and Women who behave as such aren’t bad… they are only letting their instinct guide them into selecting the best mate they feel they could obtain.

235. 240
justme

Stephen (252).

I wait for 2 reasons.  I was sexually abused as a child – for years.  So my first impression of sex was that it was harmful.  Probably because of this, I only have sex with people who I have an emotional connection with and lots of trust.  The second reason is because when I have that emotional connection to someone that only comes with knowing and trusting that other person, the sex is INCREDIBLE!!!!

A man who would have sex with me and then make a judgement that I “gave it up too early” and that this “de-values” me is ABSOLUTELY a guy I don’t want to have ANYTHING to do with.  HE is the guy who will have rules that apply to him and rules that apply to me.  He is a guy who thinks his behavior is fine while mine is less than when our behavior is the same – this attitude will manifest itself in other areas.   This is a guy who lacks the maturity and life experience to live and let other people live.  “When someone shows you who they are, believe them”.

Everyone has sex when its right for them.

I find it ironic that you judge women for giving it up too easily but are bristling at being judged by others for your hypocrisy.

236. 241
Saint Stephen

@Justme (#253)
Your idea about male and female dynamics as per dating/relationship culture appears to me as complete crass. and if you had grasp the logic behind my last comment you wouldn’t have followed suit with a smug response.

Men and women are not expected to behave exactly in the same manner- that’s why they aren’t the same gender.
You think men who judge women for giving it up too easily are hypocrites? fine i accept they are. but do you apply that same standard to yourself and other women who claim to be equals yet expect men to pay for dates even when you both have a job? because if you do, it will also make you a hypocrite.

That been said- A man who speedily had sex with you and disappeared or moved on, wouldn’t have to worry about you wanting someone like him or not. “period”.

237. 242
justme

@ 254

Being judgemental of others is a deal breaker for me.  Done

238. 243
Annie

@254

Your attitude of “I want to behave how I want” and “women must follow a different rule or I’ll judge them” is what is being called out.

I have no issue(obviously) with a man who wants a woman that will wait. I want a man that will wait also for what I feel are very good and personal reasons.

But if a man says ” I can fool around, sleep with who I want without repercussion, but those that sleep with me are sluts to be devalued” then this is a man who simply cannot be trusted.

I do not expect men and women to be the same, but if a man uses his so called difference as an excuse to make-up one rule for himself, that suits HIS own purposes, and one rule for everyone ELSE that also suits HIS own purposes, he is not only a hypocrite but a spoiled and narcissist man-child as well.

I will de-value any man as a potential partner who shows that behaviour and other women would do well to do the same. This type of man is a very high-maintenance man.

239. 244
justme

thank you Annie for so pointing that out so well.  That is what i was trying to say in 253

240. 245
Saint Stephen

@Justme&Annie
How would you be able to devalue this men if they had already devalued you first and moved on? This men do not fall from pink storks, neither are they found in goose berry bushes, they are probably all around you- even online.
You are only gonna get a chance at devaluing them if only they happen to come with labels, badges or added it on their dating profile on match.com.
Unfortunately they don’t come with badges so your chances are completely narrowed down to finding out after they must have hit and run.
For ages men have been the ones with the imperatives of spreading their genetic code while women have been the gate keepers seeking out the best hunters.                                                                             Therefore i or any other man who wants a healthy and successful marriage will naturally have to seek out a gate keeper when contemplating marriage, just as women will seek out a chivalrous men when contemplating marriage.

Annie Said:
I do not expect men and women to be the same, but if a man uses his so called difference as an excuse to make-up one rule for himself, that suits HIS own purposes, and one rule for everyone ELSE that also suits HIS own purposes, he is not only a hypocrite but a spoiled and narcissist man-child as well.
The women’s movement fought to address issues bothering gender equality (equal pay and equal opportunity), which gave rise to women outpacing men in education and workplace, but never did it sort to bother about men (who now suffer from redundancy) bearing the financial responsibility when it comes to dating. having that in mind one could assert that both genders makes rules to suit his/her own purpose. No?

Annie Said:
This type of man is a very high-maintenance man.
Agreed- and so are women who expect to be treated.
Men aren’t expected to judge or dismiss you for speedily having sex with him because you both partook in the act, but ladies would be right to judge and dismiss guys who strictly insist on splitting the dating tab when they both ate the food and drank the wine…. That to me is a greater double standard in it’s finest form.

241. 246
Katarina Phang

Saint Stephen, the reason women insist on not splitting the dating tab is because it’s not romantic.  It’s a friend zone.  Once you’re stuck there, it’s hard to get out of it.  It feels icky!  It doesn’t make us want to have sex with you, sorry to say.

But sex can be all: romantic, passionate, lustful, even when it’s just a short fling.  Women are so much more than just their willingness to spread their legs, if you bother to investigate or if she does show so many more other qualities.  Too bad for a man who just judges her on one trait and one trait alone.

At the end of the day women who just do things just because it’s expected of them aren’t particularly special now are they?  There is no authenticity in her.

Yes guys are expected to pay for dates, for reasons I have explained above.  We need to be wooed to fall for you.  If you don’t care to do the initial work, then be our guest, you get NADA: no date, no sex, no marriage.  Your choice.

242. 247
Greg

@Katarina Phang 259

You are just proving that you are a hypocrite.  Just as you don’t get turned on because someone doesn’t woo you, there are some men who don’t get turned on by a girl who is easy to sleep with. So if you think its fine to dump a guy who doesn’t try to woo you, then its perfectly OK for a man to dump a girl who is easy to sleep with.  Men and women are different.

243. 248
Katarina Phang

Greg, didn’t I say to each their own? How can I be a hypocrite?

I just don’t believe most guys believe in that. I haven’t see any proof to that claim personally though I have heard it quite often. Guys want sexual women, and most know how stupid it is to expect us to be “pure” and a whore at the same time.

And I have said, I just won’t date guys like you or Saint Stephen. You both are not my type.

I never say men and women are the same either. Some women don’t mind paying for dates. That’s perhaps the alpha women for you who complain about that. You won’t get all the feminine sides you want in a woman either.

But lots of guys have married women with whom they have had sex early in the courtship. Obviously it wasn’t a turn off for them, if quite the opposite.

It depends on how conservative you are. Most guys I date are liberal socially. And they never have an issue about when to have sex. So if, say, there are 50/50 social conservative and liberals, how can one generalize that this is what the norm is?

At the most, you can only say: pick those who match your values and there is 50% chance of you finding him.

The problem with the notion that women are the ones to be held responsible for wanting sex as much as guys do is, it does reek hypocrisy since you both are guilty of the act. Not so much about wanting a guy to show chivalry though, since he’s the one who asks you our for a date. How can the two be analogous??? Do pray tell.

244. 249
Annie

@258

How can I tell if he’s that kind of man? Pretty easily. I get to know him first. If he devalues a woman who shags around, but seems to think he’s quite the catch, he’s out the door. No if/buts about it. Any “But I’m a man so I’m allowed to because I’m different ” excuses either. He’s still a child in my eyes if he say’s that to me.

I’m glad you agree that people with double standards are high maintenance. Therefore, would it not be a logical conclusion that you should not have double standards yourself? IE..don’t devalue women for something you are willing to do yourself?

245. 250
Saint Stephen

@Katarina Phang (#259)
the reason women insist on not splitting the dating tab is because it’s not romantic.  It’s a friend zone.  Once you’re stuck there, it’s hard to get out of it.  It feels icky!  It doesn’t make us want to have sex with you, sorry to say.
And i would also say the same for men- the reason we devalue women for easily having sex with us, is because that’s a pretty strong indication that they had it with a bunch of other guys that same way, hence it doesn’t feel romantic anymore… and that’s why wouldn’t even consider having relationship with you.

Katarina Phang Said: (#259)
But sex can be all: romantic, passionate, lustful, even when it’s just a short fling.  Women are so much more than just their willingness to spread their legs, if you bother to investigate or if she does show so many more other qualities.  Too bad for a man who just judges her on one trait and one trait alone.
Katarina, allow me to flip it for you just for the sake of understanding- But dating can be all romantic, passionate and lustful even when it’s just for a short moment. Men are so much more than their willingness to be chivalrous, if only you bother to investigate- but you wont. hence you had already presumed this men don’t have other qualities by judging them on one trait alone- sorry but you aren’t any different.

Katarina Phang Said: (#259)
At the end of the day women who just do things just because it’s expected of them aren’t particularly special now are they?  There is no authenticity in her.
Katarina Phang Said: (#259)
Yes guys are expected to pay for dates. Women who do things that are expected of them aren’t special and authentic? but Men who do, are special and authentic? If i get you correctly then that should be the greatest hypocritical language/instinct at play, and that definitely sums it up.

Katarina Phang Said: (#259)
If you don’t care to do the initial work, then be our guest, you get NADA: no date, no sex, no marriage.  Your choice.
The implication of what you just said means the initial work is the payment for the sex… so if i happen to get the sex on my first or second date… why do i need to proceed to marriage? at least I have gotten a reasonable return for my investment, thereby given me every right to judge, dismiss or devalue you, just as you would have done to me, if i didn’t do the initial work.

If a man is supposed to bring his chivalrous act to the dating table and the woman is bringing nothing but her ordinary self, would he be asking for too much if he only wants to settle for a conservative lady?
As long as women keep expecting men to bring their generosity to the dating table, some men will continue to understand that they are been viewed as potential wallet, thereby given those men the same privilege to view women as commodities. thus any man who would want real value for his money wouldn’t want an over-used goods.
-This is just the hard reality that men and women are refusing to face.

246. 251
Annie

@260

Actually I think you are both showing that men and women are the same. They can both be hypocrites…lol. Just in a different way.

247. 252
Annie

@257 – Thanks

248. 253
Saint Stephen

Katarina Phang (#261)
And I have said, I just won’t date guys like you or Saint Stephen. You both are not my type.
For the very first and last time- may i ask why you keep making this comments, especially when both greg and i had never expressed any interest in dating someone like you?
And why is this so hard for you to grasp? If you understand the meaning of Conservative, you would certainly know that this aren’t the type of guys that go about looking for bunch of women to bang on a first or second date.
For Christ sake!! Conservative guys don’t pressure women into having early sex, meaning your liberal guys are definitely the culprits behind it.
greg and i; are only trying to point out the logic and motive behind Men who behave as such.

Katarina Phang Said: (#261)
It depends on how conservative you are. Most guys I date are liberal socially. And they never have an issue about when to have sex. So if, say, there are 50/50 social conservative and liberals, how can one generalize that this is what the norm is?
If all conservative guys and some liberal guys aren’t comfortable with the idea of settling with an easy lay, how possible can you present a 50/50 ratio and generally assert it to be correct?
I think you are just pulling out random numbers to buttress your
point/claim, and also to convince other women that is very much possible to meet guys who don’t devalue them for early sex.

Katarina Phang Said: (#261)
Not so much about wanting a guy to show chivalry though, since he’s the one who asks you our for a date. How can the two be analogous??? Do pray tell.
Hell!! why should a guy be penalized for wanting what you want just because he did the asking? He came to the dating table simply looking for love just like you were. you wanted love as much as he did, if not you wouldn’t show up- or would you?
If you feel is okay penalizing him for wanting what you want, he is likely to feel the same way.

249. 254
Saint Stephen

@Annie (#262)
It is nearly impossible to know. women only get a chance of finding out after he must have slept with them and dumped them.

Annie Said: (#262)
I’m glad you agree that people with double standards are high maintenance. Therefore, would it not be a logical conclusion that you should not have double standards yourself? IE..don’t devalue women for something you are willing to do yourself?
Annie- Completely agree, but i’m only trying to point out that the double standard apply both ways, and it can only be expunged when the equality is rightfully applied in all spheres of life.

250. 255
Katarina Phang

Saint Stephen, you can believe whatever you want to believe.  What you believe is your reality.  I don’t believe most guys are like you and my belief is my reality.  Believing is seeing.  And seeing is believing (I’ve seen enough to believe that your claim is false and exaggerated).

Everyone wears their own colored glasses based on your experience, values, upbringing, etc…

No one rule fits ALL.

Nuff said.

251. 256
Katarina Phang

And seriously, chivalry at the end of the day is the ultimate thing that women want in a guy.   That’s what keeps the romance and relationship alive and well.  If you show extreme cheapness very early, it’s a red flag and it tells us something very significant about your character.  So no the two are not analogous, sorry to say.

Men like you are conflicted about female sexuality (they want a virgin whore).  Women are NOT conflicted about our desire and respect for chivalrous guys.  That’s what makes guys like you a hypocrite for judging a woman for the very same act you are involved in.  A man with character won’t do that.

252. 257

267. It’s not impossible – you just have to know the guy and hear how he talks about the women he dates before you become a woman he’s dating.

253. 258
Katarina Phang

I have dated a liberal guy who told me that his first reaction when a woman had sex on first date with him was that she wasn’t serious about wanting a relationship. And I corrected him that wasn’t necessarily so.  You know what, he and I had sex on first date and he still pursued me after the fact (and he told me that after 5 dates or something) and it was only because he was so into me.

Moral of the story is guys (even liberal ones) might think what conservative guys think but as long as they’re into a gal, it won’t stop them from pursuing her.  They won’t know it though till they are violating their own belief with certain women.

Conclusion is, yes most guys will perhaps think so as a general rule and they will use it to justify why they won’t see those women again (whom they are not into to begin with).  But give him a gal he’s crazy about, when to have sex won’t matter one bit.

Again, it’s my personal observation. I have proven it time and again.

254. 259
Saint Stephen

Katarina Phang Said: (#268)
I’ve seen enough to believe that your claim is false and exaggerated).
And have every other women seen enough to believe your claim is actually true and not exaggerated? if they had, then i believe we wouldn’t be having this discourse- would we?  There is a proverbial saying, that a rattle snake which only one person saw, can easily change to python.

Katarina Phang Said: (#268)
I don’t believe most guys are like you and my belief is my reality.
I also don’t believe most women are like you and my belief is my reality. but too bad at the end of the day, what we believe wont matter- what matters is the reality that happens out there and we only blinded our eyes to it.

Katarina phang Said: (#269)
And seriously, chivalry at the end of the day is the ultimate thing that women want in a guy.   That’s what keeps the romance and relationship alive and well.  If you show extreme cheapness very early, it’s a red flag and it tells us something very significant about your character.
There you go again. Honestly the more you keep belaboring this issue, is the the more you keep bringing out the hypocrisy in you.
Who said chastity isn’t the ultimate thing that men want in a lady? That’s also what bonds women to us and keep the relationship alive as well. if you show your extreme cheapness very early, it certainly tells us a lot more about you.

Katarina Phang Said: (#269)
Men like you are conflicted about female sexuality (they want a virgin whore).
I see you suddenly resorted to ad hominem attack. go back and read the whole of my post and point point out where i ever mentioned wanting a virgin whore. i want a virgin virgin- not a virgin whore. Secondly what gave you the right to think you could speak for most men? I believe most men see a disparity between a virgin and a whore. Any man who wants a virgin, wants a virgin- not a whore. period.

Katarina Phang Said: (#269)
That’s what makes guys like you a hypocrite for judging a woman for the very same act you are involved in.  A man with character won’t do that.
That’s also what makes women like you a hypocrite for judging Men for the very act of generosity you don’t want to get involved in. Thank GOD!! there are some women with character who wont behave as such.

255. 260

But chastity isn’t the ultimate. Chaste women routinely get turned down by men who are only looking for casual sex and men who are looking for a commitment that includes frequent/engaging sex alike. Many guys want a woman who turns down every guy… except him. This is unrealistic, so they settle for an illusion – the woman who will refrain from intercourse until they’ve met three times and has probably spent less than a day of time in hours together, total. They often prefer this illusion to the reality of a woman who gets down to brass tacks about her sexual desires, AND they prefer it to the reality of a chaste woman who will refrain from sexual intercourse until she’s met the parents/moved in/gotten married.

256. 261
Katarina Phang

My claim is countering your absolute claim as if what you said was absolute truth.  You don’t know one way or another why guys stop seeing a woman.  So why do these men stop seeing these gals even when there is no sex involved?

Probably it has nothing to do with sex as most relationships end and most datings don’t become relationship.

The rest of your rant is a cheap shot that doesn’t deserve any further elaboration as they have been addressed so many times by so many different posters in so many different ways.

257. 262
Katarina Phang

And like others have said, you certainly sound young, inexperienced and naive.  Just because you want a virgin, it’s certainly not what most guys want in a woman.  Sex is vitally important in relationship.  Live some more and you will change your mind down the road.

258. 263
Annie

@267

A man who has double standards is a hypocrite. And these types, are often narcissistic. Therefore they will show this in many areas of life. I do not need to sleep with a man, OR remain a virgin to prove my worth to determine a mans character. I am also observing to see if HE has worth.

You want a woman who is a virgin, and yet seem not to be one yourself(though I may have made an assumption). What woman who believes in virginity till marriage, and has integrity as a person, would want you?

If you cannot discipline yourself sexually, and she has been able to, why would you be a good match for her?

259. 264
Greg

Women like Katarina Phang need to learn that men and women are different.  It takes zero effort for an average looking woman to have sex.  A large percentage of men would be willing to have sex with her. In fact an average woman can easily have sex with high status men (see Tiger Woods, Bill Clinton and other famous cheaters).  However, a average looking guy with no money or status has to put forth great effort to sleep with an attractive woman.  How many supermodels do you think would sleep with Joe the Plumber?  How many supermodels are married to average looking guys who make average money?  In fact most stuck up supermodels would act insulted if such an average man tried to ask them out on a date. Thus a woman who can turn down sex, and be selective is seen as having high value.
As a crude analogy a prostitute who charges $5000 and serves Elliot Spitzer would be expected to be better or more valuable than one who charges$30. The $30 one of course would have more customers, because only the rich could afford$5000.  By comparison men view women who are easy to have sex with as less valuable than women who are selective.

260. 265
Saint Stephen

But chastity isn’t the ultimate.
I think there is a bit of mixing up causation with correlation here. let me straighten it up a bit. If a generous guy gets dumped by a lady who didn’t dig him and by another lady who only wants to use him for ATM, would you say generosity isn’t the ultimate? The chastity and generosity desired trait in my opinion would be called ultimate as relative to a good long term bet. There are many PUA guys who hardly spend a penny in adding multiple notch on their bedpost per day.

@ Katarina Phang Said
My claim is countering your absolute claim as if what you said was absolute truth.  You don’t know one way or another why guys stop seeing a woman.  So why do these men stop seeing these gals even when there is no sex involved?
I’m afraid your claim ain’t countering nothing.
Is it every chivalrous guy that effectively woos a woman that they accept to date? If not, i suppose we could also say women don’t judge guys for being cheap. simply because we don’t know why they had refused to date this chivalrous guys in the first place, or perhaps because we have seen some non-chivalrous guys they accepted to date. issues like this can be ambiguous- but the rules remains the same.

Katarina Phang Said:
Just because you want a virgin, it’s certainly not what most guys want in a woman.
Again how do you know what most men want? if some men have resigned to fate by believing they wont be able to find virgin, how does it interpret they don’t want one. i often do hear men saying they desire virgins but can’t go after 14 aged herds of girls and they looking for the next best alternative- the conservative women. going by this current harsh economy, not every woman that desires a chivalrous man will find one. and i believe more women will be resigning to fate soon enough. a survey that was conducted in one the colleges proved most men desired virgins. though that wasn’t representative of the entire population, just a sample- but still it can be more reliable than the merely saying- most men.

Katarina Phang Said:                                                                    Live some more and you will change your mind down the road.
Did you had my mentality when you were my age? most of us live, age and die with our mindset.

Annie Said: (#276)
What woman who believes in virginity till marriage, and has integrity as a person, would want you?
Are you speaking for yourself, or for other women? i have some couple of friends who weren’t virgins but married one. women don’t impose it strictly on men, as much as men do. as long as you are able to respect her choice of waiting, and you are willing to wait, she will be fine. is more difficult to tell if a guy is a virgin- they don’t have hymens that needs to be broken.

Annie Said: (#276)
If you cannot discipline yourself sexually, and she has been able to, why would you be a good match for her?
Because i’ll be extremely generous to her and i’ll make sure my generosity certainly covers up for my sexual shortcomings.

261. 266
Saint Stephen

@Greg (#277)
Thanks for expounding my point more succinctly- i think you explain me much better than i do.

262. 267
justme

At St. Stephen

You stated:

“Women don’t impose it strictly on men, as much as med do.”

So you are saying women are more generous and tolerant of others.

263. 268
Katarina Phang

Greg, you are contradicting yourself.  If an average woman needs zero effort to get laid, can you imagine how many opportunities an attractive woman get to have sex?  And out of those hundreds or thousands of offers, she might take a few with men of her choice and yet you and Saint Stephen call her “easy”?

Gimme a break…that “easy/cheap” label comes from your low self-esteem because deep down you don’t believe you are worthy of having sex with her.  Self-confident guys or guys with options know deep down it’s not because she is cheap but because he’s desirable.

Big difference.

Obviously women turn down sex 90-99% of the time.  If not, we will be having sex five times a day with five different guys -as per your own statement.  So tell me again, where does the “cheap” charge come from?

Right, your low self-esteem: you just don’t believe you have that power over any woman.

264. 269
Greg

@Katarina

Something that anyone and everyone can have is not valuable.  Gems are valuable because they are rare.  So a girl who is easily accessible to everyone is seen as being cheap.  Men will of course have sex with a girl they feel is cheap.  But they will be more reluctant to have a relationship with her.  I’ve never heard a man say that he wants to marry a woman who has slept with a lot of different guys. Many men are willing to accept it, but that’s not what they prefer.  And it has nothing to do with self esteem.  The most confident guys in the world have the same ranking system.  How many groupies do you see professional athletes and actors marrying?  Not very many, because they view such women as being cheap and easy.

Accept that men and women are different when it comes to sex.  On another note, do you see female celebrities with groupies lined up, following around their tour bus trying to sleep with them?  Why not?  This happens to male pro athletes all the time?  Why the difference if men and women are supposed to be the same?  Face it and accept it.  Men and women are different.  And the sexual dynamics and values are completely different.

265. 270
Katarina Phang

“So a girl who is easily accessible to everyone is seen as being cheap.”

Everyone?  Again, where does that come from?  If 100 approaches me each week and, say, I have sex with one (not that I do), where does “everyone” come from?

It’s all relative, no matter what your narrow mind wants to believe.

Oh puhleeeasseee….stop preaching to the choir about how men and women are different.  I -like Evan here- often get blasted for saying that.  I write about it every single day!!!

Women who have sex occasionally with men they choose = groupies????

Gimme a break, you’re getting more and more ludicrous by every post.

Female celebrities don’t need male groupies…because as you said, we can have sex anytime during the day with zero effort.  I don’t see what the relevance of such analogy is.

It’s all a matter of degree.  I don’t have sex with everyone but I do have sex when I want to with guys I like and nothing you say will/can change my mind about my sexuality and how I embrace it so fully.  I have lived long enough to feel so totally secure/comfortable about it and life is too short not to enjoy sex.  I own it and am proud of it.  It works for me.  And I only attract the kind of guys who love and enjoy and embrace female sexuality without the double-standard nonsense.  There are enough of them around for me to choose from.

You stick with the prudes or sexual conservatives of your own choosing but don’t generalize most guys are as narrow-minded as you are.

266. 271
Greg

I’m not being narrow-minded. And I’m not here to change your mind.  I’m just telling you what guys are saying in the locker room, things they won’t tell you to your face.  And these guys are not sexual prudes trust me.  Girls like you are generally viewed as sex objects, a good time.  The go to girl for wild sex is usually not the go-to girl for a long term relationship. I’m not here to discuss whether that’s right or wrong.  I went to an all male rich prep school where we didn’t have to worry about gossip spreading so we said what we wanted.  And many of these guys had some of the wildest drug and alcohol fueled sex parties with girls you can think of. I know how these girls were viewed.  Tons of fun, but nothing serious. I’m just telling you what the majority of men I’ve met in life have to say when girls aren’t around.

267. 272
Goldie

Hate to tell you, boys, but women that “anyone and everyone can have” only exist in your dreams. Just because a woman isn’t saving herself till marriage, doesn’t mean she’s not incredibly selective.

And yeah, I have no problem believing that, not “the majority”, but some men will in fact say nasty things about women they cannot have. Oh well, their problem that they haven’t evolved past high school, not the women’s.

Speaking of high school, it’s over. Don’t know about you Greg, but I graduated from mine almost 30 years ago. It’s a different stage in our lives now. “No one will marry you” just doesn’t sound scary to a woman who does not want to get into another marriage.

I cannot believe what this thread has turned into. Katarina, you may want to walk away from this Promisekeepers rally. It’s too toxic. Let them chat amongst themselves.

268. 273
Katarina Phang

Goldie, tell ‘em!  They’re delusional!  If I have sex on 2nd date with a particular guy, it’s only because of him or I’m so horny I will fuck anything that moves (which is EXTREMELY rare).

That, however, doesn’t translate into I fuck EACH and EVERY guy on a 2nd date!  You perception is your OWN responsibility!!!  Jesus Christ!!!

I dated a conservative Republican many years ago and we had sex very early (FIRST DATE).  He voted for Bush TWICE, he is as conservative as it gets. When I became exclusive with my ex who is as liberal as you can possibly imagine, this is what he said, “Let me know if that doesn’t work.”

So that is exception too?  So 90% of guys whom I have sex early with is exception???

Seriously, it’s really about how desirable you are as a woman.  Those who get dumped after sex maybe it’s because they become insecure psychos after sex.  Which guy wants to deal with that BS?

Mind you I have 400 responses on POF each month, out of which I probably see 2 or three, and perhaps if I’m lucky one will translate into a physical relationship.  Optimistically, I have sex with 12/year (not really) out of 4800 potential suitors and you have the audacity to tell me I’m cheap and have sex with each and every one???

Go back to high school.  This kind of shit works with 18 year olds, not with seasoned women like me or Goldie who have seen all!!

269. 274
Katarina Phang

Greg, seriously you sound adolescent.  What are you?  19?

Let me say it again, I have only 2 LTRs lasting 17 years (if that means anything to you) both of which started with sex at first dates.

So where does this shit come from “Girls like you are generally viewed as sex objects, a good time. ”

Really?  I had to turn down guys who were so into me before my marriage with whom we had sex pretty early.  They were the ones who wanted to be serious with me!!  And I didn’t!!

So when they stick around, it’s because they want “to have a good time.”  And when they disappear it’s because “you are cheap.”

So which is it???  You can’t use both as arguments to support your view.  Are you that stupid?

Sorry to say, I’m very attractive because I’m a whole package.  My sexuality -and the fact that l love sex- only enhances my appeal.  I’m not gonna apologize for it because it’s PC to say it.

It is what it is.

Please, it’s nothing to do with conservatives or liberals, if a guy is into you, he’ll take you: warts and all and I have proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

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Helen

Katarina, there is no reason to become so angry. Goldie was right. You don’t have to waste your time defending yourself to a clueless 24-year-old who shoots randomly from the hip and spews random anger, and another guy who invokes “prep school” to try to prove his points. Seriously?  Prep school?  That had me literally laughing out loud. Who is so silly as to think high school anecdotes apply to anything in the adult world?

Go out and have a good time – it sounds as though you’re doing great and loving life (and men).

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Katarina Phang

Helen, I wasn’t angry. I was just bitch-slapping him to instill some sense into his head.

Prep-school? Indeed…LOL… These dudes are just off high school, that’s why talking to them is like talking to teenagers.

I didn’t party nor have sex in High School/college. And guys I’m dating are pretty much on their 2nd or 3rd round of life, in which they no longer use HS/college paradigm in assessing women. Nor do they find it useful anymore as both men and women evolve throughout the years.

So, boys….grow up some more and come back here 10-20 years from now. I bet, you will have become fully grown -and different- men by then.

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Greg

I don’t understand why you’re so angry.  You need to keep pointing out that your so attractive ect.  Secure people don’t need to constantly reassure themselves that they are great.  And I think most people love sex.  That doesn’t make you special.  In fact I don’t think I’ve met anyone who doesn’t love sex. Even women who wait until a relationship before having sex (who you call prudes) love sex.  They may even love it more than you.

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Katarina Phang

Greg, again I’m not angry but tired being told that my experience is an exception.  Truth is relationship can be approached from many different routes.  The dogmatic won’t accept that and would rather persist in their preconceived notions of whatever…

I know I’m attractive and there is nothing insecure about being honest about it.  And attraction is what makes guys/gals come back for more, not a set of rules.  When it feels right, it just feels right.  You’re not going to have this conversation in your head, “Oh I’m crazy attracted to her but we have sex early.  I don’t think she’s wife material.”

People tend to go with the flow, follow whatever feels right/good to them at the moment.  When you find that one person all rules go out of the window, fast.

As I have very clearly shown mathematically, I turn down 99.9999% offers for sex (and I bet the vast majority of women do too) and yet you still use a few examples of me having early sex as a judgment of my “easiness”?

I have waited and have had sex early.  Those who became my serious partners turned out to be those I have had sex early.  What do you call it?  An aberration?

Prudes are not those who wait to have sex (waiting can be an hour, a week or a year or more…so basically everyone waits…it’s all relative.  I’s not about the period but about how right you feel.  People should have sex when it feels right to do so and wait till it feels right, that’s the only rule I have).  Prudes are those with sexual hang ups, who have sex and then feel ashamed and guilty of it.  Those who view and judge others who don’t share their values as perverts or whatever names you call them.

Like some guys here say, if a guy wants a relationship -and he’s into you- when to have sex doesn’t matter one bit.  NOT ONE BIT.  He might/will wait till she’s ready but if she’s ready faster than the norm (whatever the supposed norm is), he will be okay with that too.  Because she’s worth it.

This culture is so obsessed about waiting for sex but all I know most people do have sex pretty early: within 3-5 dates usually.

I was very conservative in my teenaged years (didn’t believe in pre-marital sex), it changed through my 20′s.  My view changed and evolved as I grew older.  You boys will go through the same thing, no exception.  So don’t be so cocksure about whatever it is you hold sacred.  Life experience will change a lot of it.

274. 279
Greg

How do you realistically expect a guy to be into you after 1 date?  You’re still a stranger.  Just like you make judgments about a mans character based on whether or not he buys dinner, some men make judgments based on how easy it was to sleep with you.  I’m glad that in your experience this hasn’t happened to you.  And as they grow older, everyone is not going to come to the same realization as you, because everyone is not going to get divorced like you.  I hope to make my marriage last, and then I won’t have to worry about all the things you do.  And finally I hope women realize that its only in the last few years relatively speaking that contraceptives have allowed women to sleep with many men without risk of pregnancy.  Prior to that women were shamed for sleeping around because out-of-wedlock children can be a burden to society.  You can’t expect to change centuries worth of attitudes in a few years.  Women who have sex with lots of different people will still be looked down upon, even if you want to believe otherwise.

275. 280
Nicole

Actually Greg, opinions about female chastity and its important have been cyclic throughout history, as has women’s knowledge about how to prevent pregnancy…women in ancient Egypt and Rome knew how to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and being sexually “free” has not always been viewed the same way in our society or in others, nor have the “rules” even been consistent within the history of Christianity.

And if you’re talking about the availability of the pill, that goes back about 50 years in this country.

So I’m not going to argue that some men dislike women who have been around the block (and that definition is going to vary from man to man, and some men are at least not hypocrites about it), but your historical and medical facts just aren’t accurate, and even the reasons why people cared have varied throughout history.

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Katarina Phang

Greg, a guy can know he’s into a woman after 4 secs.  That’s all he needs to feel attraction (strong, super strong, medium, little or nada).  Sure he will have to know much more about her to really know if they are compatible.

But it all starts with physical attraction and any guy would need that strong desire to just take her and do her on the spot for him to want to marry her later on.

Women, otoh, don’t need that strong urge in the beginning.  It can develop through many other things.  That’s how different men and women are.

So no you don’t know if you two are compatible on first date or first sex but the chemistry and attraction will motivate you to get to know her better and vice versa.  That’s how it works.  I’m a believer sex can develop TOGETHER with other aspects of relationship at the same time.  I don’t want to waste time on guys I’m not sexually compatible with as others have said.  i don’t need to wait because emotionally I can handle this.  I’m not in the least needy and that’s very attractive to guys.  That’s why they keep coming back.

And your cheap shot about my divorce has nothing to do with when we first had sex.  In fact, my settling to the fact that we became sexually incompatible was the cause of it.  (We had great first sex but then he grew lazy and libido-wise we were incompatible).

You indeed sound young and naive, sorry to say.  But you will learn and grow.

Nicole, thank you.  This young dudes really need to live some more to be able to come here and preach to older broads like us.

277. 282
Annie

@284 – Greg.

Any man that has ever viewed a woman as a sex-object is out as far as I’m concerned. And more women would do well to see things the same way.(as they are doing on this thread)

Women like me realize that a man that who uses a woman as a object of achievement and a masturbatory device does not fundamentally respect women on any level. They are most likely still afraid of us.

And No @St Stephen, and man cannot and will not make up for his sexual shortcomings and disrespect of OTHER women by doing things for me.

If men have casual sex, and have respect for the woman? Okay. He’s a decent fellow, even if I do not engage in such matters myself, he has my respect.

Women do not want men with double standards. Why would any sane and wise woman, want such a man? Saying things are different between men and women sexually only goes so far. This is more about the way some men “want” it to be, rather than the way it is. Women can and do enjoy casual sex. As do men. What..is the issue for you personally if it’s something you both engage in?

If you hold this view you’re a hypocrite plain and simple, and no gender excuses change that. You can be that way, but don’t expect an emotionally mature woman to tolerate it.

278. 283
Greg

@Katarina,

I may be younger, but I am not naive.  I know that marriage takes work.  Peoples sex drives change over time, but if you made a commitment to love the other person then that means looking for a way to work things out.  Sex is not the most important thing in life.  And you say that he grew lazy.  How do you know that he didn’t want to sleep with you because your body was starting to get wrinkly or saggy?  Since you were getting older I’m sure it was, there’s nothing you can do about it. Many women on this blog think that they’re so amazing and flawless. People change over time, and so does desire.  That’s why marriage is a commitment to love the person through good times and bad.  Many people today don’t understand what commitment means.
And as for physical attraction goes, there are many women that a man would want to take on the spot.  But that doesn’t mean the man is into her.  You can go to any club to watch and hookup with plenty of hot women. But I don’t know any man who goes to the club looking for a decent wife.  Physical attraction is important, but its not as important to men as women think it is.  I see hot women get dumped left and right.  I think there’s even an article on the blog discussing that.
And you continue to talk about how great you are, and how men keep coming back.  That doesn’t mean they want to commit to you long term, or think you’re great. Its likely that they just want to enjoy your company on their own terms. And a woman being needy does not bother a man if he really loves the woman.  Men want to feel needed, it makes us feel like a powerful provider and can provide an ego boost.  A man who complains that a woman was needy, just wanted to have fun without the responsibilities of a relationship.

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Katarina Phang

Greg, I don’t care about your view on marriage (and sexless marriage for that matter) being just off prep-school yourself.  LIve some more and better still do marry and come back here later.

Stop preaching about sex and what sex (sexlessness) does to people/marriage.  You have no idea.  You’re like a kindergarten kid preaching to a college student about the virtue os personal hygiene.

And stop using opposite parameters to justify your position (either he disappears or not after sex doesn’t mean anything now ’cause you are just too “easy” for any guy to marry—again let me remind you again, I had TWO guys who committed to me, the first would have married me too only I didn’t want him to and a few others who would want to be my boyfriends but I didn’t like them enough).

And don’t preach to me about how physical importance isn’t everything. Again it’s like telling a college student she needs to brush her teeth twice.

And alluding I’m wrinkly and saggy is most hilarious.  Thanks for the laugh.

280. 285
Katarina Phang

And mind you, Greg, if physical attraction isn’t everything why do you even mention me being wrinkly and saggy as a good excuse for my husband getting lazy?

Again, you want to use all opposites to support your argument.  Sorry son, it’s either that or the other.

Here isa hint: when sex works, it’s only 10% of relationship.  When it doesn’t, it’s 90% of relationship.  You don’t understand now.  One day you will, though.

281. 286
Goldie

@ Greg #292:

“And as they grow older, everyone is not going to come to the same realization as you, because everyone is not going to get divorced like you.  I hope to make my marriage last, and then I won’t have to worry about all the things you do.”

Thank you for pointing out that your advice does not apply to the absolute majority of women on this blog. Finally, we’re on the same page.

How do you know that he didn’t want to sleep with you because your body was starting to get wrinkly or saggy?  Since you were getting older I’m sure it was, there’s nothing you can do about it. Many women on this blog think that they’re so amazing and flawless. People change over time, and so does desire.  That’s why marriage is a commitment to love the person through good times and bad.

Wow, you assume too much. But, even if this is right (which I doubt), it means that that he didn’t stick to his commitment to love his wife, even though a few wrinkles are hardly “bad times”. Which makes him a pretty awful husband IMO. Also, it would’ve taken that guy one look in the mirror to realize that his own body is starting to get just as wrinkly and saggy, if not more. Yah it would be a perfect world for some guys where they could dump their old wife and find themselves a hot 20yo anytime they want, till they’re 80. Doesn’t work that way.

“a woman being needy does not bother a man if he really loves the woman.  (…).  A man who complains that a woman was needy, just wanted to have fun without the responsibilities of a relationship.”

Oh my. Good luck with that one.

282. 287
Greg

Its too bad there are so many bitter women on here.  I’m not justifying a man not sleeping with his wife because she got older and less attractive.  I’m just pointing out that we all tend to see bad things in other people while ignoring our own flaws.  You complain about the lack of sex drive, while he could easily complain about you getting old and wrinkly. (But of course you’re perfect and look exactly like you did when you were 22) I hear women constantly complaining about getting bored or bad sex.  Instead of communicating and working to solve the problem they just quit and blame the other person. That attitude makes many women here come off as being very arrogant.
And Katarina I don’t need to wait until I’m as old as you to have any wisdom. My parents have been in a loving marriage for many years.  I listen to them and other happily married people like my grandparents and I’ve learned how to make things work.  Maybe you should listen to some successfully married people instead of other people in your same position.  Me taking advice from you is like a young business student taking advice from failed dot com CEOS. It would be better to learn from successful people like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs.
I’m not a kid.  I’m 27.  I know what love, teamwork, compromise and good communication is all about. Bad sex is only 90% of a relationship if you let it become 90% of a relationship.  And bad sex is usually a symptom of other problems in a relationship.

283. 288
Jennifer

Here’s the thing: i’ve known men that think like Greg and i’ve known men that think that way Katrina’s men think. They both exist. the problem is when people start saying ‘all, most, many’.

I agree completely with Katrina that your perception is your reality. So if most of the men she knows don’t think less of women for ‘early’ sex, that is her reality. If Greg knows the other type of man, that is his reality. Why try to impose your reality upon anyone else (while at the same time insulting them!). It shouldn’t matter, it doesn’t have any bearing on you, just do you and leave the other folks alone. The fact that someone is having a different life experience shouldn’t be a threat to your way of thinking. If you like what life is showing you, keep moving in the same direction. Trying to ‘prove them wrong’ is pointless and means absolutely nothing.

Katrina, a verbal ‘bitch slap’ seldom works in getting anyone to see another point of view, particularly one that they are just not inclined to see. It’s very possible that age, marriage and life circumstances won’t change Greg’s view…and really that’s alright. You two are living in seperate worlds and always will. (For what it’s worth…i’m much closer to your world than his!)

284. 289
Diana

Greg, the term “needy” to describe a woman usually refers to their being a constant emotional drain. This could be anything from a man having to deal with her low self-esteem issues, i.e. seeks validation or approval, needs to be catered to, is unable to stand on her own two feet, needs to make others responsible for her feelings, always looks for sympathy, creates drama, etc.

This is different from needing a man to fix a leaky sink, help raise the  children or pay the expenses. Men DO like to feel needed, to be that shoulder to cry on [sometimes ], to feel like they can provide, that their woman needs their love and presence in their life, but they don’t want to really saddle up with a “needy” woman. And if they do, there’s a deeper reason for that, such as their own neediness issues.

285. 290
Goldie

Greg, why are you trashing middle-aged, divorced women on a dating-advice site geared primarily towards middle-aged, divorced women? What purpose does it serve? We come here to learn how to date, not to hear how we are like “failed dot-com CEOs” because we had the nerve to leave our husbands (for reasons unknown to you, may I add). That information we can get pretty much anywhere else.

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Katarina Phang

Oh Greg, you and your generic marital advice doesn’t constitute wisdom, alright.  And it’s nothing bitter about us stating just how young and naive you are and you do indeed ASSUME too much.  You don’t know what happened with everyone’s marriage, please…please stop making yourself more ludicrous by saying that people just gave up without a fight, etc…

It sounds ludicrous, not wise.  OK?

And a 27 thinks he knows everything.  There is no such thing as failure in relationship, that alone shows how naive you are.  You always learn and grow.  You always gained something out of that relationship.

Listening to your parents doesn’t make you a marriage counselor.  Go marry and come back here when your wife refuses to have sex.  Unless you have low libido yourself so it doesn’t matter to you (from the sound of it you probably are, God bless you..hope you find the right women with the same level of libido like yours), you HAVE NO IDEA what it does to marriage.  Go to sexless marriage board and learn about the destruction sexlessness does to couples and stop being JUDGMENTAL.

Listen and learn from different people with different experiences, you might get something out of here to bring to your own future relationship.  You don’t know much being 27 and single/unmarried, I swear to God.

287. 292
Ruby

Greg #300

<<How do you know that he didn’t want to sleep with you because your body was starting to get wrinkly or saggy?  Since you were getting older I’m sure it was, there’s nothing you can do about it. Many women on this blog think that they’re so amazing and flawless. People change over time, and so does desire. >>

News flash, men get wrinkly and saggy too. And if you believe what you say, how can you be so certain that the same thing won’t happen to you in 20 or 30 years?

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Katarina Phang

Oh Jennifer, he will learn and grow and change, alright.  Everybody does.  He will at least be less judgmental and acting less like a-know-it-all when he has.  All 27′s think they have all the life’s secrets, then they get to 30′s, a few failed relationships, then their 40′s…they will see nothing is as simple as black and white as his youthful sunny generic marital advice no body will buy would try to make us believe (in vain).

289. 294
Greg

I never claimed to know everything.  I don’t think I know everything either.  I agree with Jennifer.  That your life experience creates your perception of the world, hence everyone’s perception is different.  An Katarina you make no sense when you talk about my marriage advice.    It comes from people who are still married, I didn’t make it up.  So obviously they buy it. You’re the one who sounds like a know-it-all.  Nothing guarantees a successful marriage, but people who do succeed at any endeavor usually have common principles.  For example, its impossible to succeed in business or athletics without working hard.  While this alone doesn’t guarantee success, it is essential. Obviously there are similar generic principles that make marriage work as well. I also love how you assume that I will have a few failed relationships.  Remember everyone is not like you.  Of course this also contradicts your previous statement that there are no such thing as a failed relationship.  I disagree with this too.  Continuing to date a known cheater or douche idiot and then being cheated on or hurt counts as a failure.  A failure in judgement.   Anyways keep doing what works for you.  I’m not dumb enough to think that I can try to change your views, and that’s not what I’m here to do.

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Katarina Phang

Greg, you assumed I didn’t want to work on my marriage.  You didn’t ask, you just made a blanket statement about people here.  You assume you know what happened with my marriage or anyone else’s here.  Everyone’s issue and circumstance -though may be prevalent in nature- is somewhat unique.  Every relationship has its own challenge.

You are the epitome of a kindergarten kid who thinks he knows it all.

A failed relationship doesn’t make someone a failure and there are always things to learn from people with failed relationships.  It’s not a judgment!  Most people go through that. Most relationships end.  There are few lucky ones whose first attempt at relationship works like my parents.  But this is not the norm.  Every great inventor has gone through so many failed experiments/attempts that make them wise and more knowledgeable in the process.

Saying sexual incompatibility doesn’t really exist is another example of your ignorance.  NO, kid, sexual incompatibility is REAL.  Ok? There are too many couples with incompatible libidos, for instance, not to mention other sexual dysfunctions.

I recently dated a great guy whom I realize sexually it will never work between us no matter how wonderful a person he is, how much we love each other, etc.

How many relationships have you been in?  I doubt you have been in any.

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Helen

Greg, what is astounding in some of your comments here is your lack of humility. There is nothing wrong with being 27 and clueless about life – we all go through that phase.  But to keep insisting that you know about something in which you have no personal experience (i.e., marriage) is ridiculous.  To claim that you have firsthand knowledge of marriage by observing your parents is foolish. And to attempt to lecture those who have been through it, when you haven’t, is insufferable.

I hope that someday, you will have the opportunity to experience marriage yourself. Then perhaps you may gain the wisdom and compassion that you are so obviously lacking now.

292. 297
Saint Stephen

I guess this post proves the theory that women like to be lied to. too bad as guys often harness it as an advantage to bed many women as possible.

The women who are getting miffed at our comments are the ones who seem not to enjoy hearing the bitter truth. they will appreciate me more if i had said men don’t devalue women for early sex. i’m a guy and i know how most of my guy friends think about girls who are easy to bed- this obviously are guys who will be getting married in the offing.
I observed that women who extremely love sex are often self centered, smug and less inclined to make relationships work. they hop from one marriage to the other, one relationship to the other, looking for what they may never find.
In this time and age when close to 60% of marriages end in divorce and single mum becoming the norm, some men might not care.
But I-like Greg- personally intend having a healthy and successful marriage, and wouldn’t want to spend resources on a woman who had been around. Call me insecure, young, and clueless- who cares? i prefer having a successful marriage than to be secure and matured. Men and Women are different.

@Just me
No- i mean Men and Women view sex differently.

@Annie
Some women understand that men and women are different as regards to sex and have come to terms with it. Your notion about such men are irrelevant,  just like my notion about women who wants to be liberals when it comes to sex but quickly revert to traditional when it gets to dating. Whatever we think of them wouldn’t change them.

@Katarina Phang
Not everyone in life will have to learn through experience. if i have to learn everything in life through experience, i might not survive to tell the story. My parents are marriage counselors who are happily married for 30something years. I have learnt a lot from them and divorced couples whom i know. Greg and i, consider it wiser learning from those who failed in marriage and others who succeeded.
Furthermore i still have my respect for a woman who got divorced once, i tend to view it as a mistake. But a woman who has gotten divorced twice appears to me as lacking a good sense of judgement. i’ll be more inclined to think the problems emanated from her- not the men.
Though i might be young, i like thinking 50 years ahead and make my decisions based on that.

Secondly, your assertion that a man will know if he is into a woman in 4 seconds is patently false. A man will only know he wants to bang a hot woman in 4 seconds.

@Greg
You are Right. Reasonable men don’t go much for looks when considering settling down. they go more for character (i’ve seen good looking men who got married to unattractive women). The type of men who go more after looks are the type who will drop a woman if she grows extra pounds, develop stretch marks, or becomes wrinkly and saggy.
I know when we are all old, sex and looks will be very much at the back of our mind. Then we would rather want to have a loving partner by our side.

293. 298

Stephen, it’s not just a correlation. I mean that I’ve seen men reject women for saying that they’re chaste and cite it as a reason themselves, and I’ve heard many of them say that virginity and/or the intent to maintain it until a commitment is procured totally bars a woman from consideration as a girlfriend (“test drive/try before you buy”), and is a sign that something’s wrong with them (especially after a certain age, which means that the more partners they’ve turned down, the less attractive they seem), they’re entirely too religious to be compatible with them, or both.

294. 299
Saint Stephen

Katarina Phang Said: (#308)
There are few lucky ones whose first attempt at relationship works like my parents.  But this is not the norm.
Katarina- what you call luck, i call it possessing a good sense of judgement. A wise philosopher defined Luck as “when opportunity meets preparation”. In the book called “the richest man in Babylon” the author said, the goddess of good luck meets those that are prepared to receive her.

I don’t know about others, i feel disgusted whenever i hear that people get divorced for reasons as lame as sex. Is completely understandable to get a divorce if your partner is an abuser or alcoholic addict, but sex doesn’t do it for me. I have a huge sex drive, yet i can’t imagine divorcing my future wife if she doesn’t want it as much as i do.
If you divorced due to incompatible sex drive, what happens when the next guy sex drive drops? then you move on to the next…. and next.
Most ladies do not seem to realize that men’s libido generally drop as they advance in age.

295. 300
Katarina Phang

Saint Stephen, it’s not lame that sex divides couples.  That is called sexual incompatibility.  Those who don’t view sex as important like yourself will belittle those who view it differently (usually low libido partners will treat is as unimportant like my hubby and told the high libido partners that they put  too much emphasis on sex).

There is no such thing as “too much emphasis on sex.”  You just have to find a partner who will see it as important as you do because if not a huge resentment will brew over the years.

What happens when his sex drive drops…well you know what, I can tell you this much, he should be open to alternatives on how to solve this issue because he can’t expect his wife to be celibate or be in sexless marriage and remain happy.  It’s no easy solution but it’s the reality of it.

And if you alluded me as having divorced twice…no I have only married once. I do have 2 LTRs.

And seriously you kids, please in the normal world people usually have more than one relationship and it doesn’t mean lack of judgment.  I can’t believe how naive, lacking in compassion and humility you boys are!!!

And please drop that BS about women being devalued after early sex, I have proven it to you that’s total baloney.

Only YOU can devalue yourself, ladies, don’t let men like Saint Stephen tell you otherwise.

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Katarina Phang

A man would know if he has chemistry with -attracted physically- a woman in 4 secs. And it’s unlikely that will change.  If a man doesn’t feel it in his gut within 4 secs, it means he’s not than into her.  It doesn’t mean he likes her as a person or knows that he’s the one, but if he doesn’t feel a strong (physical) attraction within 4 secs, it’s very unlikely he will pursue her.  Maybe he will see her once or twice and as soon as he gets the sex he stops pursuing her.

That is what being into someone is all about.   A guy needs to want a strong urge to have sex with a woman to want to marry her.  The two can’t be separated, kids. It doesn’t mean he would, but that’s a prerequisite.  He won’t pursue those he feel lukewarm about physically LET ALONE marrying her.  And attraction doesn’t mean she has to be a super model.  It’s all unconscious.  It’s physical but not all physical.

Men have their own types.  I’m the type for certain guys and when they feel strong attraction, they will pursue me no matter when we have sex. So women just have to fertilize the ground so they meet men who find them their types (hopefully the feeling is mutual).

And let me fix you, know-it-all smug, no usually high libido partners don’t just divorce low-libido partners.  If you know at all the dynamics within marriage, the resentment brewed over the years and leaked into other aspects of relationship.  So by the time they divorce (whoever files for it), the relationship has long been broken and issues have been piling up unresolved.  The sexlessness creates a vicious cycle.  Connection is lost and the more it’s lost, sex is more and more impossible.  You won’t understand any of this because you just assume you know relationship/marriage when you have never been in one yourself.

Again, I’m repulsed by the lack of humility and compassion.

297. 302
justme

At Stephen

Men and women dont’ ALWAYS view sex differently.   As someone who grew up with the same ideals about sex that you voice and as someone who has taught my kids the same - if I were a young woman who fit your qualifications exactly, I wouldn’t care about how many women you had sex with.  I would care about how you viewed sex and how you viewed women.  I would care more your attitude.  Your intolerance of others, your lack of allowing for other points of view, your hypocrasy, that those things would have me RUNNING FOR THE HILLS.   These traits are a much better predictor of long term potential than sexual history.  You better look for a stupid virgin.

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Katarina Phang

I would care about how you viewed sex and how you viewed women.  I would care more your attitude.  Your intolerance of others, your lack of allowing for other points of view, your hypocrasy, that those things would have me RUNNING FOR THE HILLS.  These traits are a much better predictor of long term potential than sexual history.  You better look for a stupid virgin.

Justme, you nailed it!

To add, sex is an expression of love and intimacy without which there is no much point of being in a relationship.  It carries so much more weight than just physical gratification in relationship. It amuses me when kids who are still wet behind the ears come and preach to us of what constitutes good marriage and so arrogant and intolerant of other views that are obviously more seasoned/tested than theirs.

The more a person knows, the more he knows how much he doesn’t know.  The ignorant thinks he knows best.

299. 304
Greg

I love how you call us know-it-alls then you come one here and tell us how men feel.  How can you do that when you’re not a man?  Or have you been a man before and just aren’t telling us?  I know more about being a man than you do. So maybe you should sit down.
And I have a very high libido.  But if I couldn’t have sex everyday I would find other ways to make myself happy.  And at the very least I would discuss the problem and how to make things work.  I don’t expect my partner to please me and cater to my needs all the time.  I have self-control.  I wouldn’t expect my wife to have sex on whenever I needed it.  Would it be OK for me to divorce her if she didn’t provide sex on demand?   Would it be OK for me to sleep with other women on nights she didn’t want to have sex? You may be a generous person, but you come off sounding very selfish.  And if you married a selfish man who doesn’t care about your needs then that’s a problem.  Selfishness leads to inevitable failure in relationships.

300. 305
Katarina Phang

Greg, again you and your foolish assumptions!!!  You don’t ask, you just assume.  And you keep coming back looking more and more ludicrous with your arrogance.

I at least have been married and have been in the position to tell you how men respond to me.  NOTHING at all like you claim here.  And you don’t know how other men think anymore than I do.  Karl, Nathan and Lance disagree with you!!  Three of them versus two of you.  It’s just men here, not to mention outside the board.

Men in their 40′s and 50′s have different priorities to men in in their 20′s.  They could care less about how women live their sexual lives, if anything they kinda expect us to be experienced and they want us to be experienced so they dn’t have to teach us new skills. So what you and your prep-school friends think of women are pretty irrelevant because we here don’t date prep-school students.  You are barking at the wrong tree, son.  Tell your prep-school female friends about how prep-school boys think about female sexuality, they might listen to you.  Not us, sorry.

And are you telling us that number one divorce reasons: sex and money can only mean these people are selfish assholes, huh?

Again, the clueless.  Sex is very important in marriage and when one partner is being denied over and over, it does damage to his/her self-esteem, and in time the relationship.  He/she will feel humiliated, rejected, unloved, unwanted, undesired.

Easy for you to say all the ridiculously idealistic advice from a vantage point of someone who’s just repeating “the 101 of great marriage” without experiencing it first hand.

Like Helen said, it’s okay to be clueless but to be intolerant, judgmental and arrogant is insufferable.

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Greg

I love how you get so angry, and continue to put words into my mouth.  I never said sex isn’t important.  I just said that its not the most important thing.  And I can repeat “101 of great marriage” if I want to.  I happen to believe in following fundamental principles, whether its playing football or marriage.  I didn’t accuse anyone of being selfish.  I said that you could be very generous, but that you sound selfish.  We are all selfish to a degree and its something we have to work at.  Selfishness is defined as caring primarily for ones own needs.  Selfishness will cause a relationship to fail.  I don’t need to be married to know that much.  While experience is the best teacher, you can avoid pitfalls and get things right the first time by learning from others.  Imagine if man had to fail a few times at reaching the moon?  Do you think that would have been acceptable?  No. Its something you have to get right the first time, and its possible to do so without prior experience.

302. 307
Helen

Greg, I say this without any rancor:

If you seriously believe that being married to someone else is something that can be precisely calculated for success, like the proper trajectory to land on the moon, then you genuinely have no clue.

303. 308
Goldie

Sigh. This was such a useful thread to me until the boyz turned it into a screaming match. I was actually getting excellent advice from Katarina, that I actually needed, after a horrible dating experience I’d had this summer that left me depressed for a month. Guys (Greg in particular), I don’t understand. The post is called Dating and Divorce. Which part of that sounded like a good start to a lecture on how to get married young and stay married for life? I’m pretty sure there are many other threads on this very blog that would have been more appropriate for that purpose. There was one about a 21yo getting married, for instance.

Imagine if man had to fail a few times at reaching the moon?  Do you think that would have been acceptable?  No.

Why??? Why??? I don’t understand. Why would it be unacceptable?

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Katarina Phang

I’m curious now that the boys not only view female sexuality in such a grim misogynistic fashion, but they also frown upon people going through several relationships in a lifetime as if it was such a shameful thing by labeling them “lacking in judgment” or other very derogatory and judgmental terms.

Goldie, I have enjoyed your posts too and how “motherly” you are to our resident cubs here.

So now marriage is akin to going to the moon and shouldn’t fail the first time according to one of our cub experts.  Perhaps he meant skydiving rather than going to the moon.  Because if you don’t succeed the first time, skydiving is definitely not for you.

LOL…

305. 310

… as an aside, Greg, it was entirely acceptable for man to fail a few times before putting a man on the moon. Otherwise, the space program would’ve ended with Apollo 1. *headdesk*

306. 311
Greg

For many women on here good advice=being told what what I want to hear.   I actually can’t believe some of the things supposedly older mature women can’t understand.  Why are there questions from women in there 40′s wondering whether or not they should dump a cheater.  Women in their 50′s still being used for sex. I thought experience should give you the obvious answer. Wisdom does not always come with age.

307. 312
Katarina Phang

Oh dear….  Honey, women in their 50′s probably want sex more -MUCH more- than guys in their 30′s.

You have no clue.  And you are still as arrogant as hell…

308. 313
Greg

Apollo 1 was not supposed to go to the moon genius.

309. 314
Saint Stephen

A virgin will get dumped by a man whose primary motive is sex, and that’s a good way to weed out all the sleazebags who comes to toy with a woman’s emotion. In my opinion such men are fools, if after test driving other women for sexual compatibility, they still wind up falling sexually incompatible in the middle of relationships or marriage.

@Justme
The virgin you call stupid i consider her much wiser for been able to swim against the tide and for having a better grasp as per male/female dynamics. you think men and women don’t view sex differently? will you be happy to have sex with 10 different men per day? because i’ll be very much happy to have sex with 10 different women per day.

@Katarina phang
If you equate marriage to invention, then i’ll consider myself and anyone else who consecutively fails in trying to invent what the likes of Thomas Edison, Wright brothers and other famous inventors had already invented. is totally funny to me how you were quick to point out Karl and Nathan who didn’t support our views, while you completely left out the women your age on this particular thread who confessed to been victims of such act. To me you are just scratching around for any little pin around you can pick which strengthens your views.

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Helen

Greg, at this point you are resorting to potshots in your willful ignorance.

Son, do you think there is a natural age after which – voila – you suddenly have no questions about anything, you suddenly have all the wisdom in the world, you suddenly know the exact right thing to do in every circumstance?  Since you seem not to know the answer, let me spell it out for you.  NO.  Such an age does not exist.  Even the oldest of old people make mistakes and question their judgment.  To assume they know the right answer to everything would be foolish even if they were 100, let alone 27.

A clear sign that a male lacks gentlemanliness is how he treats women older than himself.  I think we can all see by your behavior which direction you are headed.

1. 315.1
Evan Marc Katz

Enough, kids. I’m shutting down this thread unless both sides can stop with the insults.

311. 316
Saint Stephen

I now believe many women have this illusion that marriage is bound to remain with all the sparks and fireworks it had in the early phase. Most women can’t comprehend the fact that a relationship dynamics changes after much years of marriage from that of a boyfriend and girlfriend into that of brother and sister, and by then sex doesn’t factor much in the relationship, rather it becomes more of sharing and communication. That’s why the most successful relationships are often those which started with just little chemistry. There is even a post in this blog which discusses that. i can’t fathom how one’s desirability hinges mostly on sex. i’m bound to feel more desired by a girl who likes talking and indulging with other activities with me than a girl who likes having sex with me. Well… to me sex is just 10% of a relationship, and that’s why if i find a girl i click in every other aspect- sex certainly wont be a deal breaker. While is true lack of sex can build up resentment over time, but that’s only if a person allows it. This is a problem of women who feel they are attractive but yet always seeking constant validation from others.

Like someone said earlier- wisdom doesn’t always come with age. Forgive me if i can’t see what the wisdom of king Solomon had to do with the old age of Methuselah.

312. 317
Goldie

Yah well sex may well be 10% of a marriage, but to me it seems pretty heartless to deny it to your spouse, knowing full well they cannot get it anywhere else without cheating. We didn’t have this problem, but I’ve talked to people that did. In a good marriage, the person that’s lost the libido still tries to satisfy their spouse as best they can under the circumstances (I remember talking to a man many years ago, who lost his as side effect of prescription meds, but still tried his best to help his wife out.) There are ways.

“Most women can’t comprehend the fact that a relationship dynamics changes after much years of marriage from that of a boyfriend and girlfriend into that of brother and sister”

Seems to me that it’s most 20-somethings that cannot comprehend that people in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and (gasp) 70s and up are not content living “like brother and sister”. I know, right now to you we must seem like the walking dead, but I guarantee we’re pretty young at heart.

313. 318
Greg

Sorry for the insults.

Think of Apollo missions before Apollo 11 as dating.  These mission tested various parts of the rocket and lunar module that would eventually land on the moon.  If something went wrong during those missions it was forgivable, because the point of those missions was to learn what works and what doesn’t.  You had to learn from those missions, because failure when the stakes was highest and the whole world was watching was unacceptable.  Similarly dating is where we can make mistakes and learn, so that when we make a serious commitment high stakes commitment like marriage we will be successful.  That’s why during dating you try to screen out selfish people who want to only use you for sex, learn from other experienced people and also work on improving your own relationship skills.  Maybe I need to work on sounding less arrogant.  Either way if you don’t learn or make changes, you don’t become wise and you repeat the same mistakes.

314. 319
Diana

Greg, while it is true that dating provides an excellent way to weed out the incompatible, and serves as a valuable method for learning and growing toward a healthy and long lasting relationship, should you marry in the future, you will learn and experience things you haven’t even begun to comprehend. Not only will you learn, but you will be challenged. You will become a changed person from the one you were when you were dating, and your relationship will be tested. Not necessarily in the way you may be thinking. This isn’t intended to imply that your marriage wouldn’t survive or thrive. It’s intended to just share that sometimes when we think we have all of the answers that we need, or we are convinced we know what the road is like that lies before us, life has a way of sometimes proving us wrong, even when we don’t want to admit it.

So keep an open mind and an open heart. It will attract the most butterflies, too. And see where life takes you. It’s when we go into something with an ego-driven invincibility that we sometimes get stuck in our own mud.

315. 320
Saint Stephen

Katarina phang Said: (#314)
A man would know if he has chemistry with -attracted physically- a woman in 4 secs. And it’s unlikely that will change.
Are you sure? I have met some ladies i felt instant intense chemistry and physically attracted to, only to discover after a week that i didn’t want to see them anymore. I’m a man, so you have to believe me when i say that whatever a man feels in 4 seconds is pure Lust. Men don’t require chemistry to have sex with a woman.
I’ll only know i’m into a lady if i’m still happy to see her after 6 months.

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Saint Stephen

@Goldie (#331)
Don’t generalize, some folks are contented. Perhaps that’s the reason why they still stayed married. Though i know a lifetime marriage isn’t for everyone.

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Katarina Phang

Stephen, they may change their mind about not seeing her anymore but not the other way around.  He can’t be NOT attracted to her within 4 secs, and be attracted later on.  Rarely happens that way.

I thought I made myself clear.  Sigh.

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Katarina Phang

And please of course, no need to split hair.  Yes they basically can screw anything that moves and they will do it just to have sex, but they know if they’re into a gal pretty early.  My point is if they’re into you it doesn’t matter when you have sex.  They will stop seeing you if sex is the only thing they want with you or they’re not too sure about you but not if they are really attracted to you and find you their type, i.e. everything about you works for them; i.e. you two are chemically aligned.

And trust me that sort attraction exist for both men and women.

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Annie

@336 Katarina

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Yes, a man can feel no attraction for a woman, and end up wildly passionately in love with her and desire her more than any other.

Chemistry, is our evolutionary way of pro-creating. The rest of our grey matter, is what got us to the moon.

I prefer the grey matter myself Chemistry is overrated.

@Greg and St Stephen

There is no shame in wanting a woman who holds herself back for a special experience. The issue is again, with the hypocracy. She must hold herself back, but you do not need to.

If you think sex isn’t important then I think you really really miss the point of sex. It’s called making love. It’s an experience you can have, that is like no other. Where you desperately want to feel close to the other person, and love them with your body/mind/soul in a fully accepting way. It is not a mastubatory event, it makes you vulnerable.

This is why I do not date men that shag around and hold double standards. They seem to think that sex is so “not important” and they treat it like a recreational activity and masturbate inside a womans body, then disrespect her for allowing it.They do not know how to seduce nor have they ever learned how to  feel emotionally and physically intimate during sex. They tend to look for a replacement mother in their wives, than an equal partner. Then they blame their wives disappointment on their less than satisfactory love-making and call her a  ”slut” for wanting to feel loved physically.

Like I said before. Your hypocracy makes you a bad bet in a marriage.

Emotional and physical intimacy become combined in a marriage. If you will not end a marriage over a lack of physical intimacy, then you are not capable of intimacy in the first place imo. It is very important.

320. 325
Katarina Phang

Annie, how often does that happen?  Say one in a million?  That’s a total abberation.

The average guy would tell us he can’t be with a woman he feels little attraction for.  99.99999% of them will.

The boys have to realize that sex is much more emotional than physical in relationship.  When it doesn’t work, the emotional component of what make relationship works is missing.  And it’s a huge chunk, that’s why it’s 90% (mind you this is the assertion of experts who have counseled thousands of couples).

Their fear of sex for whatever reason (religious reason most likely) will really send most women with healthy sex appetite running to the hill.

321. 326

Stephen @ 327
http://www.salon.com/2006/09/06/virgins/

Say what you will about those guys, but that’s the prevailing mentality in American men under 60. They won’t marry a woman that they haven’t had sex with, and if she hasn’t had sex with anyone else, they assume that she doesn’t like sex and that there will be problems for the same reasons of sexual compatibility espoused by Katarina Phang and other women here. The vast majority of American men want a woman who occupies a happy medium between chastity and promiscuity. Fortunately, it’s a midpoint that most American women embody.

322. 327
JustMe

Stephen

Men and women view sex differently.   And as such your behavior of having sex with women and then looking down on them is acceptable because you are a men, and its ok for men to do this.  It’s ok for you to expect a different, higher standard for others than you have for yourself.  Gotcha.  To each their own. . .

On a different thought, you know what I think a lot of people don’t like?  The person out there advocating certain standards while living below that standard themselves.  I mean, it could be the parent who swears like a sailor but washes his/her kids mouth out with soap when they use the same language, or the public figure/politician/religious leader who talks about family values while cheating on their spouse, or the family therapist who counsels struggling families while he/she is abusive to his own family or the boss/company that expects the employees to have a higher standard than what they do.  Here is an example from my work; there are two managers, one tells his people that they have to be on time everyday while he himself is late every day.  the other one tells his people they have to be on time everyday – he himself is one time every day.  Both have employees who are on time but who do you think gets more respect, the man who leads by example or the man who says “do as I say, not as I do”?

No one likes to be judged but when you are being judged by someone who is looking down on you for behavior they do themselves, it just leaves an ICK, slimey feeling about that person. And it shows a lack of maturity by the person doing the judgement.  When I think of the public figures who make the news for their hyprocasy and the public sentiment that turns against them, I hardly think I am the only one doesn’t respect this type of person.

Honestly, when someone holds others to a higher standard than they have for themselves - well I just think “what a douchecanoe!”

323. 328
Annie

@399

Not an aberration at all I don’t think. It’s why you hear of people whove been friends for 7 years, give a relationship a go, and end up married. I’ve experienced it myself, with men about 5 times approximately in my life. And I know of plenty of men(some that have even posted on this blog) that have experienced the same thing.

Immediate chemistry is seriously overrated.

There was even a brilliant movie about this. yes I know movies are not real life but this one shows the dynamic I’m talking about. It’s called “The Painted Veil”. Beautiful movie.

Both men and women would do well to ignore at the start whatever “feelings” they have and pay attention to character. You can grow to love character, and desire to feel very close to some-one, both emotionally and physically, without any initial attraction at all.

324. 329
Greg

Katrina is 100% right that most men will not marry a woman they feel little attraction for.  But she is wrong in thinking that a man knows if he is into a woman within seconds.  All a man knows within 4 seconds is whether or not he would be willing to sleep with her.

And Annie, I already know that the emotional connection is a large part of sex.  That’s why I said earlier that bad sex is not the cause of marriage problems, but a symptom.  If you’re not communicating or connecting emotionally outside the bedroom, then you probably won’t connect too well emotionally inside the bedroom either.  I know for a fact that even if a girl is gorgeous, if I despise her than I won’t want to be in the same room with her much less be intimate with her.

And I’m not debating whether its right or wrong to judge a woman considered easy.  I’m just saying that many men do this.  I also know that many women expect me to pay for the first date, even if they make more money than me.  I do this without complaining even if it is just as hypocritical.

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Katarina Phang

Greg:  Read my previous posts again.  Let me quote what I said that you repeated above:

If a man doesn’t feel it in his gut within 4 secs, it means he’s not than into her.  It doesn’t mean he likes her as a person or knows that he’s the one, but if he doesn’t feel a strong (physical) attraction within 4 secs, it’s very unlikely he will pursue her.  Maybe he will see her once or twice and as soon as he gets the sex he stops pursuing her.
That is what being into someone is all about.   A guy needs to want a strong urge to have sex with a woman to want to marry her.  The two can’t be separated, kids. It doesn’t mean he would, but that’s a prerequisite.  He won’t pursue those he feel lukewarm about physically LET ALONE marrying her.  And attraction doesn’t mean she has to be a super model.  It’s all unconscious.  It’s physical but not all physical.

Granted, he has to learn about her personality, character, compatibility potential, etc…but that don’t happen unless he’s into her, i.e. feeling a strong physical attraction for her (and he knows if he does within 4 secs. I know it within that length too, usually).

An average looking guy will be so into a beautiful sexy woman who shows interest in him, more likely than not.  It all starts with physical/sexual attraction.  That’s what being into is all about.  And most guys know it within seconds.  It may decrease later if she acts like a psycho, but the other way around rarely happens (from no attraction to strong attraction).

And all this nonsense that guys will be turned off by early sex only happens when they’re not that into the women (and guys will have sex when it’s offered to them, more likely than not).

And no, sorry, bad sex isn’t necessarily only a symptom of bad relationship.  Bad sex can happen because of lack of sexual chemistry and sexual incompatibility.  It is real.  Some guys/gals are not great lovers and this fact alone affect the quality of sex a couple will have.  If a guy, for instance, doesn’t like oral sex, i can’t be with him no matter how much I am attracted to him or how much I love him and vice versa.  We’re just not compatible sexually and overtime this thing will kill our relationship.  And most of the time you can’t change someone’s sexual energy/preference.  It’s easier to find the one that matches you sexually.

326. 331
Katarina Phang

Annie, it may happen that way (friendship first and then relationship) but still without physical attraction most people won’t venture into relationship.  You can still be attracted to your friends physically.  Sometimes circumstances just don’t allow friends to be a couple until much later.  That doesn’t mean, however, the physical attraction wasn’t there.  This doesn’t invalidate my statement.

327. 332
Goldie

@ #345 & 342, I have a sneaky suspicion that most, if not all, guys are to some extent physically attracted to their “platonic” female friends, even if the female friend is not available at the moment. First thing that happened to me after my divorce was all my platonic guy friends calling and emailing to ask me out.

Apparently it’s different for women, from the way people talk about the dreaded friend zone. But at least some one-sided physical attraction is there.

328. 333
Greg

Katarina you are greatly overestimating how much physical attraction means to a guy.  A guy cannot tell if hes into you after one date.  You’re a stranger.  He can only tell if he wants to have sex with you.  And if he asked you out on the date the answer to that question is yes.  If takes time for you as a girl to know if the guy likes you for who you are or just views you as a piece of meat.  Sleeping with him on the first date greatly decreases the chance that you will know whether or not he sees you as a fun time, or as a real person.
It seems to me that many women think a guy has to “like” them to have sex with them, because women generally do not sleep with men they don’t like.  Men will willingly have sex with girls they don’t find to be very attractive, girls they would be embarrassed to be seen with.  Even famous, rich powerful men do that.  I hate trying to tell some of my female friends that a certain guy never ever loved them, because they refuse to believe it.
And finally guys are not turned off physically by early sex.  Some men are just turned off from seeking a serious relationship with such a woman.  I’m not justifying their actions, I’m just saying that’s how many men feel.  If it wasn’t true then this article wouldn’t have been written.

329. 334
Katarina Phang

Physical attraction means a lot to a guy.  Here’s a story of a guy I used to date (the liberal guy who thought if a woman had sex too soon it meant she wasn’t serious in wanting relationship).  I would say he was an average looking guy but we had fun and good sexual chemistry (physical chemistry doesn’t always translate into sexual chemistry, especially for women…you can enjoy sex more with less handsome guys) so we had sex early.

He was obviously so into me (between the two of us, I was the better looking).  So what’s the chance he would dump me after sex?  Zero.  Cause I was a great catch to him.  Why would he dump a fun, sexual, smart, pretty woman that gave him great company?

That would be stupid.  I bet if a supermodel beds you on first date, Greg, you won’t be able to resist her yourself.  So stop this nonsense about how that will affect how you feel about her.  It’s about who has more options.  It’s about the perception of “high value.”  Any guy will keep a woman he perceives as high value, no matter when the sex takes place.

He told me also how a black young model broke her heart.  They had sex on second date and she asked for exclusivity before they did to which he instantly said yes.  You know why?  Because again, she’s gorgeous to him.  He dated up.  She was a catch to him.  Why wouldn’t he want to be exclusive with a young stunning model?  It spares him from “work” (dating is work).

After 6 months she was losing interest and he was left broken hearted.

A guy I recently dated told me about her last girlfriend of 9 months, of whom he said looked like a “super model” so they also had sex on second date.  But then she got some “psycho” issues so he had to dump her.

Don’t tell me physical attraction isn’t paramount.  It is, especially for men.  Guys know within 4 seconds if they want to see a woman on a second date.  Just because they have sex, it won’t change how he feels about her unless she did something horrible after that.  Physical attraction is the magnet.

330. 335
Saint Stephen

@Justme (#341)
I agree men are hypocrites. i’m only trying to point put out that the hypocrisy apply to both genders. Is our biological imperatives which evolution couldn’t completely erode and as such we are often helpless victims to it. Men have the biological urge to spread our genetic code and seek out a gate keeper, while women have the same to seek out the best hunters- for comfort, status and security. In our modern days this has translated into men becoming studs and women gold diggers.

331. 336
Saint Stephen

@Katarina phang
You need to understand that Men and Women are different. Women are more complex than men. Men tend to be more Animalistic in nature and as such respond more to our impulses as regards to sex and violence. There is a great probability that a man who goes out with 10 different women on a date will end up feeling attracted to all of them, while a woman who goes out with 10 men may feel attracted to only one. And as such is extremely difficult for a man to distinguish between love and lust till after a week or month. Your laws of attraction (of feeling attracted in 4 seconds and remaining attracted) applies to women- not men.

332. 337
Annie

@346

I suspect that men tend to find women pleasing enough to sleep with, a lot of the time, even if the women aren’t “hawt”. It amazes me what arouses men sometimes. It can be the curve of a neck, the smallness of her hands, even her knobly knees

So yeah I think you are right, that a lot of men with plantonic female friends, would still be somewhat attracted to them.

@343

Thanks for the reply.In the long run of course we need attraction. My comment was more about how you may not be attracted to some-one initially but end up feeling immense passion for that person. I think this is possible and is something to think about when dating.(For both men and women).

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Goldie

I have a hard time believing this: “Men will willingly have sex with girls they don’t find to be very attractive, girls they would be embarrassed to be seen with. ” I’ve had these conversations with my guy friends, and with people I’ve dated, and they all pretty much repeat what Katarina says: if there is no physical attraction, then there isn’t going to be a second date. For anything at all to happen, there has to be a physical attraction. I remember being puzzled by that, because I’ve had guys that I’d originally found unattractive, “grow on me” if they were nice and fun enough. Apparently that’s not the case with men.

Not to play the age card, but yeah I can see how college kids, guys in their early 20s may be able and willing to hit anything that moves. Men in their 40s do not have that luxury, or that kind of time

With that said… Physical attraction and being able to sleep together do not equal being able to commit or have a relationship, much less love. Even for women like Katarina or myself, these are two different things. Even more so for men.

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Greg

Katarina you continue to confuse dating and relationships.  And a guy can be physically attracted to a girl and still not like her. Men will go on a second date with a hot girl.  But it doesn’t mean that they like her.  I think there’s even an article on this.  Women tend to go on dates only sleep with guys who they like.  Guys have no problem sleeping with women they don’t like.  No guy wants to embarrass himself on a date, so even if he’s not interested in the woman he will put his best foot forward and make sure she has a great time.
And no guy can really know enough about a stranger to realistically want to be exclusive with them after 2 dates.  Your friend just wanted the sex and he only got burned because it turned into a 6 month relationship.   If they slept together after the second date and she never called him again, I don’t think he would have cared too much.  Anyways your friend sounds very shallow .  Dating a hot girl doesn’t mean you’re dating up, unless you have low self esteem or are desperate.
I personally have never really cared if a girl I’ve known for only a month disappears. Why? Because she a stranger and means nothing to me.  So if a supermodel wanted to sleep with me on a first date, then great!  I would enjoy the experience and the ego boost.  I would ask her out again because shes hot.  But if she never returned my call, I wouldn’t care because she’s still a stranger who means nothing to me. I fall in love with who a person is, not what they look like.  And it takes time to discover who a person really is.
Many men have no problem viewing women as objects.  So it doesn’t matter if a woman is fun, smart and sexy as you claim you are.  Women who get dumped after sex aren’t dumped because they aren’t great women or because they were psycho. It’s because the guy never cared in the first place.  He saw the woman as an object, easily got what he wanted and was never even given the chance to view her as a human being.  If the best thing a woman has to offer is sex on a first date, then some men will probably still see her object and not bother to look further.  And for the last time, it has nothing to do with how hot, fun, great or psycho you are.

335. 340
Greg

@Goldie

Well maybe its seems its just young men that will bonk anything that moves.  But look at Bill Clinton, Tiger Woods, Governor Arnold S. and Steve Phillips from ESPN.  Monica Lewinsky was not attractive, and Tiger Woods was having sex with a very unattractive waitress from Denny’s.  And the governors mistress looked awful.  I’ve yet to talk to anyone who found these women attractive. So yes there are men who will have sex with women that they would never fathom being seen with in public.

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Katarina Phang

And no guy can really know enough about a stranger to realistically want to be exclusive with them after 2 dates.  Your friend just wanted the sex and he only got burned because it turned into a 6 month relationship.

And I’m tired of repeating myself because you obviously don’t read.

Please don’t generalize, some guys do know alright.  Or at least they think/feel they do know because they feel it in the gut.

And no, you don’t know him…he’s the mushy type and he likes being in relationship.  He wanted to be in relationship. Of course he wants the sex too but he was so into the gal the way he was so into me.  In his case it’s the women who weren’t so into him.  It works both ways, alright?

As I said, sometimes it’s the women who disappear.  I have done that a few times.

I was just explaining what “being into someone” means, then you go off the tangent about men who sleep with women they don’t find attractive nor like.  Alright, that happens, how does that DISPROVE the fact that guys will keep seeing women who they are into no matter when the sex takes place.

Being into is not about, I repeat, knowing if a person is right for you in the beginning.  It’s about that instant gut feeling that you want to see someone because you’re so attracted to him/her and it’s mostly about physical attraction first.  Everyone, except you perhaps, have experienced that (again, how many relationships have you been in?  I suspect none).

As usual, you are using opposite parameters to justify your position.  You always need to be right, don’t you?

I didn’t confuse dating with relationship (stop being patronizing, I know the difference…I’m a dating coach).  it’s about your repeated nonsense that guys will think differently after early sex about a girl.  I have proven it to you, that’s BS!!  I have shown you many times guys will keep coming back if they’re into a woman to which your excuse becomes they just come back for the sex.  Really?  For 6-9 months?  I thought your notion was they would just disappear and show no interest whatsoever???

And these people had exclusive relationship, and that was not relationship enough for you?

And then you said this:

Your friend just wanted the sex and he only got burned because it turned into a 6 month relationship.

DUH????

So they did become a couple of some kind, didn’t they?  Exactly what I said that the 2nd date sex didn’t ruin it?

Then why are you still insisting on your personal preference as a generalization of what all men think/feel?

And Goldie, you are right, I’m still asking for proof that “guys want sex all the time” or “guys just want easy sex” or “guys will want to have sex at a drop of a hat.”

I haven’t seen it that much.

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Katarina Phang

Many men have no problem viewing women as objects.  So it doesn’t matter if a woman is fun, smart and sexy as you claim you are.  Women who get dumped after sex aren’t dumped because they aren’t great women or because they were psycho. It’s because the guy never cared in the first place.

And, again, how does this disprove my assertion?

So basically you agree with me that guys who leave after sex is because they’re not into her and just want sex?

Thank you.  I rest my case.

If the best thing a woman has to offer is sex on a first date, then some men will probably still see her object and not bother to look further.

Yes, the key word is “some.”  Some men will keep seeing her and even marry her (as in my case and I’m sure many others’).

And, no, no the best thing she offered wasn’t sex but it was an incentive for them to explore further.  Don’t make sex your enemy.

And for the last time, it has nothing to do with how hot, fun, great or psycho you are.

You’re entitled to your unfounded belief.   Many guys flee because women become needy and clingy and worse yet stalkers.  I heard it so much from guys I date.

And it has everything to do with how fun, great and cool you are as a woman to make him want to explore further with you beyond sex.

I have proven it.  You have no experience to base your assertion/belief on.  Only dogmatic claims and generalization over and over.

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Saint Stephen

You linked us to an anecdotal post.
However i’ll quote a phrase from the link you provided.
Of course, in many cultures, including those in China, India, Indonesia and parts of our own country, a virgin is still a prize when it comes to finding a wife. Before the advent of birth control, having a virgin bride was the best way a man could make sure that any children she bore would be his own, especially since a virgin was considered less likely to stray later, Buss says.
According to the stats, is states that virgins were 7 to 11% by different age range and if we go by the stats, consequentially that small percentage will have abundance of men that would be more than happy to marry them. They may have a hard time in the dating world, but that will only ensure they have a happy/successful married life.

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Saint Stephen

@Katarina phang
My problem with you is that you keep making wrongful assumptions. What makes you believe a man can’t judge a woman on a first date just the way you do to men? It has nothing to do with if he was into her or not. virtually all men can be into a woman they go out on a first date with. Firstly a man who isn’t into a woman wouldn’t bother to ask her out on a date. Secondly how would the lady know if was only seeking sex or not?
A man who holds a certain standard he expects his future wife to attain, will judge and dismiss a woman who failed by having sex with him on a first date, regardless of if she’s hot or fun to be around with. Even a man who isn’t into a woman might stick around for further sex if they had it on a first date.
And please enough of your marriage which started with sex on a first date. That’s the only point u’ve been using to justify your assertions since this thread started. Truth is how many commentators in this thread can confidently say like you that their marriage started with sex on a first date? Including Evan, et al.

@Goldie (#352)
You amaze me. I mean did you expect the men to tell you they will sleep with virtually everything that moves in skirt? I believe they told you what you wanted to hear. Ask yourself how many men would ask out a lady they felt no physical attraction and if all actually translated to a second date.
Men whether old or young necessarily wouldn’t need to find a girl attractive to have sex with her.

340. 345

There’s a huge difference between “Most men want virgins and merely settle for non-virgins” and “Female virgins have a secure niche of admirers due to their own small population percentage, even though most men may evince a preference for their own experienced counterparts for marriage,” Stephen.

Also, there seems to be no non-anecdotal evidence to be found regarding this issue. If you have some pertaining to the attitudes of modern US males on the subject, I’d love to see it, but admittedly all I have to go on are the statements of men whenever this subject comes up, on and offline, as well as the stories of everyday female virgins about… not exactly being chased down in the streets by men with wedding rings.

341. 346
Helen

Maybe we need clarification from the men here, to get some of the percentages straight. Because otherwise, people will keep arguing in circles, not really getting the others’ viewpoint.

What it seems like you men are saying is that you would be fine with having sex with ANY woman, even if you don’t find her attractive. So, you would have sex with about 100% of women if they wanted it. Is this about right?

But sex and attraction are apparently not the same thing. So, roughly what percentage of women would you say you are attracted to? And would you NOT be attracted to her if she were fine with having sex the first time, or does attraction not depend on that at all?

Then, what percentage of women would you consider long term material?  And is this something you can tell pretty much right away, or does it require a large number of dates?

Clarification is appreciated.

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Goldie

@ St Stephen # 358

“I mean did you expect the men to tell you they will sleep with virtually everything that moves in skirt? I believe they told you what you wanted to hear.”

You seem to believe a lot of things that make no sense to me. What the heck is this one supposed to even mean?! I do not need to be told that I am physically attractive, if that’s what you’re implying. I already know I am. Geez. My friends and I were talking in the abstract. They were the ones to bring it up, usually. I have no problem believing them, as they have no reason to lie to me.

343. 348
Greg

@Helen

Great questions!  Sex is not all about attraction to men.  My friends used to group girls into crude categories.  ”Doable”, “not doable” and “doable when drunk or extra horny.”  I think 50% of women would be considered “doable” and maybe 65% are “doable when drunk/horny.”  By contrast only about 1/2to 2/3 of the “doable” women would be considered attractive, meaning that about 25% to 30% of women guys meet are considered attractive at first glance.
Guys tend to be a bit more rational with their feelings, and are not looking for crazy emotional chemistry on a first date.  We want the girl to like us, and we want to have a good time.  By getting to know the girl we can determine whether or not she has the qualities  of someone we can see ourselves with long-term. And it is easy to determine quickly someone who is NOT long term material.  One the first date I CAN rule someone out immediately, but I CAN’T determine whether someone will be a great fit.  Seeing if a woman has the qualities that make her long-term material requires a few dates.  Of course extreme good looks can cloud judgement!
Men can usually list the reasons why we like a certain woman.  By contrast many women who write to Evan, post on this site, and many of my female friends are in “love” or want relationships with guys who have no redeeming qualities that they can actually list or are complete douches by their own admission. Of course this can happen to guys too, but it happens to women much more.  Many women get involved with guys just because of “chemistry” and “excitement,” which is starting to sound more to me like “emotional roller coaster.”

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Greg

Sorry a clarification.  An additional 15% of women are “doable when drunk/horny.”  That raises the total of women a man might sleep with to 65% encompassing both doable(50%) and doable when drunk/horny (15%).

345. 350
Helen

Greg, thanks for the clarifications.  It sounds as though the bottom line is that if a single woman wants sex, she can fairly readily get it (as most women fall into the 65% of at least some men).  I’m more puzzled by the only 25-30% of women being considered attractive by men.  I’m not asking anyone for an explanation of that; just puzzled.

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Joe

Annie @ 295:

If you eliminate every male who has ever objectified a woman, you have an incredibly tiny dating pool.

Helen @ 364:

Greg says that 25-30% of women are considered attractive at first glance.  Haven’t you met people who you didn’t consider attractive when you first saw them (or their picture), but with subsequent looks or getting to know them, you could see that they had attractive qualities?  Or like the girl next door–you grow up around her and don’t really consider her attractive because she’s so ubiquitous, but then one day, BAM, she’s hot.

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Annie

@ Joe 365

I’ll rephrase. Any man that has ever “used” a woman as a sex-object, is out as far as I’m concerned.

I’m probably being a bit dishonest however, as I’ll make exceptions to that rule depending on the man.

I don’t agree with using another person for self-gratification. We lose our connection to our own humanity, and to the humanity of the other. They end up existing, to please us.

Most people have done this in one way or another to other humans and I can accept a person who has realized it’s incorrect and changed their ways. But ethical behaviour and emotional maturity will stop you from doing this and if a person doesn’t view the world this way, then he and I are fundamentally incompatible.

And yes, that reduces my dating pool, and that is one thing I really am okay with. To me, this is just too important. Thankfully, it appears that I’ve found just such a man.  We shall see I guess

348. 353
Kelly

This is the line I use when a guy wants to have sex and I am not ready… ” there are a million things to do between our first kiss and having sex and I don’t want to miss out on any of it!”
Usually they are so intrigued that they are very eager to take the time to see what the heck you are talking about. Once you begin, they realize you are definitely not their usual girl and they will LOVE going at your pace! At anytime you can move faster but for Petes sake slow down and enjoy the journey. Trust me, the guys will adore you!!!

349. 354
Lynnz

I’m guessing that Lance is older, as I am.  Things were nice when we were younger, in a lot of ways, and especially on the West Coast, where I grew up.  There were fewer people, feminism was still in a pleasantly naive stage, and we hadn’t all been Kardashian-ed to death.  Case in point, I have small breasts and was never given crap about it (although I’ve usually associated with nicer men).

At any rate, I slept with my husband on our first date, and have had a fulfilling relationship with him for 22 years.  I like him.

But things have changed.  I can tell.  I have kids who are 18 and 20, and they are dealing with dynamics I couldn’t have imagined or anticipated 25 years ago.  People in general aren’t as nice.  The world isn’t as nice.  The economy is in no way, shape, or form as “nice.”  Challenges and stresses are extreme.  Of course, male-female relationships have changed.  It just isn’t 1982, Lance.

And EMK is right.  It’s a new and uncomfortable rightness, maybe, but it’s rightness, nonetheless.

Thanks, Evan, and thanks for saying “shit,” as well.   :)

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Melina

I’m 28 and for the 3rd time I’ve been dumped because I wouldn’t put out.

First guy I dated, I didn’t put out for 3 months and got dumped. Second guy, there were loads of issues anyway, but he wouldn’t commit without me putting out first so I got dumped.

Third guy, he said he agreed with my stance on waiting and implied he will wait as long as we could “fool around “with each other. I thought ok I better compromise, I like him and I’m fast approaching 30 and I don’t tend to come across people who share my views. So anyway, we fooled around whilst discussing the subject of exclusivity for about 9 months. Eventually he said he’d love to commit but wants proper sex, and in any case he’s worried that since I haven’t had sex with anyone, if the relationship didn’t work out, I’d have a lot more to lose than him.  I walked away from him because I thought that after 9 months of seeing each other surely he should know what he wants. Again, I guess compatibility issues were one problem and lack of putting out on my behalf was another. I’m just so fed up because as a girl you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I just don’t get why I never come across any guy who is willing to commit without sex? :-s

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Susan61

@Lynnz #368.  Yes, the world was a nicer place, wasn’t it?  Before breast implants, Botox, internet porn, the “hooking up” culture, kids dumping each other on Facebook, the Kardashians.   The culture has gotten cruder, sluttier, people have gotten ruder, the economy has everyone stressed and I hate to say I think things are going to worse before they get better.

I’m 50.  My parents married in order to have sex, as did most of their generation (in their late 80′s now).  Now that sex is readily available outside of marriage, you have the current situation we are in.  My mother laments that “women took themselves off the pedestal”.  In a way, she is right.  She would be horrified to see some of the internet porn that is readily available to men (and women) in the privacy of their own homes.  When I was younger, men had to risk shame by going to video stores and standing in the adult section, buying Penthouse from behind the counter at the 7-11 or going to adult stores in the “bad” section of town.  Now, you have hardcore porn, full length movies, at your finger tips.  Who needs a real woman with real, perhaps slightly sagging breasts when you can have perky, implanted 25 year old tanned breasts?

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Shas P

Men should only marry virgins..But if they are not marriage minded they are free to indulge in dating, girlfriends,relationships,flings,one-night stands, escorts , massage parlours

353. 358
Paragon

@ 340.
BS.
If guys are reluctant to do female virgins, it is *only* where there is a negative correlation between female virginity and physical attractiveness.
Otherwise, men *universally* prefer females to be virgins.
And no amount of spurious media spinning, or embellished/fabricated anecdotes will change that.
But keep deluding yourselves, girls(by projecting your own biases onto men).

354. 359
Paragon

I think it should be pointed out, that the *vast* majority of males are not promiscuous, even if only because they don’t have the options(which makes them unlikely hypocrites in this regard).

But, like so many others, many of the women here are so *fixated* on the top %10-20 of the most attractive males who *have* those options, that they are blind to false generalizations(I have met very few western women who either had the intuitive faculty, or the integrity, to acknowledge this).

355. 360
Paragon

@ 119

I disagree.

Long term/short term mating(LTR vs casual sex) *are* different evolutionary strategies, with conflicting optima.

So, the more someone’s behavior enables one, the more it hinders the other.

And this applies to both sexes that are a *party* to casual sex – they are *both* hindering their prospects for a LTR, on average(again, evolution operates on general, not special cases).

356. 361
Juliet Jeske

I always find it hysterical when people piggy-back on my articles, especially the most popular one I have written to date.  Which by the way was the first thing I have ever attempted to get published.  Well I guess I don’t “get it” according to your perspective, but I am writing about my own experiences in New York dating post-divorce after the age of 35.  I don’t know if you are divorced or over 35 but you are a man, not a woman and as you probably know already our two experiences are quite different.  I haven’t found much of a balance to be honest.  It is either hook-up artists or wife-shoppers and not much in between.  A lot of broken and messed up people though in this age bracket.  I wish it was easier, but it isn’t and I got feedback from people all over the world who are going through the same thing.  In fact the most common phrase searched on my blog post is the following
“Why is it so difficult to date in your late thirties?”
I think that speaks volumes.  I am also not selling a service or trying to get anyone to sign up for any paid subscription or advice.  I am merely sharing my experience.  So yes, I guess I don’t “get it” but then again neither do a lot of other people.

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Juliet Jeske

And one more note, if you actually read my article, which I am beginning to suspect you didn’t.  I am talking about the first few MINUTES after meeting a man, not the first few dates, weeks or months.  That is something entirely different. You have no idea how aggressive this city is in terms of most men expecting they are going to get sex, immediately.  The experiences that I wrote about were in the moment…as in…right after I met someone, they were expecting a hookup that evening.  To quote myself
I didn’t think that in order to try to have a healthy sustained relationship with a person I am supposed to have sex with them hours or even minutes after meeting them. It seems more like long-term relationship suicide.
I go on a lot of first dates with men that I have no connection with, and then deal with this nonsense when out at night.  That is my reality.  But thanks for the link as it just drives more people to Huffington Post and my article.

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Paragon

@ Juliet Jeske

“And one more note, if you actually read my article, which I am beginning to suspect you didn’t. I am talking about the first few MINUTES after meeting a man, not the first few dates, weeks or months. That is something entirely different. You have no idea how aggressive this city is in terms of most men expecting they are going to get sex, immediately. The experiences that I wrote about were in the moment…as in…right after I met someone, they were expecting a hookup that evening. To quote myself I didn’t think that in order to try to have a healthy sustained relationship with a person I am supposed to have sex with them hours or even minutes after meeting them. It seems more like long-term relationship suicide.”

There is no shortage of men who are predisposed to monogamy, and commitment.

But what may be happening, is either there is something wrong with your selection process that is tending to promiscuous males, OR the behaviors you are observing is a consequence of ‘nice’ guys switching tactics, after a history of unsuccessful outcomes(being ignored by women), and after observing that high value males tend to be sexually aggressive.

In this sense, women are selecting for this kind of behavior(how else do you think ‘game’ has achieved such popular currency).

359. 364
john

Re: Helen #360

“What it seems like you men are saying is that you would be fine with having sex with ANY woman, even if you don’t find her attractive. So, you would have sex with about 100% of women if they wanted it. Is this about right?”

Um. HELL YES. Love women. Love sex. Very happy to have sex with a woman incredible hot, to not that attractive. Maybe even kinda ugly if it’s a one time thing, and my friends won’t find out.
Like Ron White said. “Once you see one woman naked. Well. You want to see all women naked.”  (there are many exceptions, of course)
Example: I’m walking in the mall. Accidently bump into a woman. She looks at me and says, “Lets have sex in the bathroom”. Ya know what? I am THERE! (normal caveats apply, of course – if she looks like Rosanne Barr, then HELL NO)
I am saying things honestly. The way most guys think. I know. I’m a guy.
The only problem is if you are DISHONEST with a woman. Tell her a lie to get into her pants. Yeah, thats wrong. But otherwise? Listen everyone, get over it already.

360. 365
john

Re: Melina  #369
“I just don’t get why I never come across any guy who is willing to commit without sex? ”

Melina – knowing what I know now, I absolutely will not commit to someone without sex. And lets say that hypothetically I did, and it was bad sex – indeed, I would leave . Which is worse?
Additionally, if the balance of desire is off, it could also lead to complications. What if you are a twice a month kinda gal? That wouldn’t work unless you were with a twice a month kinda guy. If you wanted it every day, and he thought Saturday was the special day, you will resent him.
Should this be figured out before or after the commitment? You figure out all kinds of everything else first about each other before commitmen- why is sex (more important then eating at times) something left to such a haphazard time for discovery?

361. 366
GG

Men who wait are very sexy.

I met a very sexy, athletic, articulate single father.

The chemistry was palpaple. I wanted it. He wanted it but he wanted to wait. He wanted to get to know me, take our time. Go nice and slow.

And we did…and it was intense, passionate, even a little kinky, and worth the wait for both of us, you can be intensely attracted to someone and be playful and flirtatious without giving access to the entire storefront too soon. You can give hints, subtlely.

What is too soon, dates 1-3.

Still together.

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GG

PS I find men who wait much more attractive and it only makes me want them more. So of course it would and should apply equally to both sexes.

363. 368
helen32

I understand and have experienced what the author describes.  What is not being considered is that there are serious sexual predatory men out there, many of them.  This is not just your everyday guy looking for a hookup or more.  Women are subjected to both and often it is hard to tell the difference.  Besides being ever-present, the predators are much more interesting, successful, and attractive by design.  Not all are obvious “do me right now” scumbags with prison tattoos.
Regarding the sex before commitment, lets remember that low libido is common when testosterone starts to wane around age 40.  Then there is the quality of the “interaction” and passive aggressive withholding tactics.  Compatibility is just as important for the woman as it is for the man.
Just my two cents..

364. 369
Highlander

I read these columns of where have all the good men gone and I have to laugh. Many of them were broken by wives who cheated on them with exciting bad boys. Once they discovered that marriage was hard work, boring old hubby gets kicked to the curb.
Close to 70% of marriages around middle age end by wives filing for divorce. Many of these divorced men are not willing to go through that again, and will play the field. Now knowing what the girls are attracted to they’ll use it to their advantage.
So the point is, if you are single post 35, not only do women have to deal with professional pickup artists, but now reformed “Nice Guys” who’ve been through the divorce mill are using the same methods.

365. 370
hespeler

Helen @ 364:

“Greg says that 25-30% of women are considered attractive at first glance.  Haven’t you met people who you didn’t consider attractive when you first saw them (or their picture), but with subsequent looks or getting to know them, you could see that they had attractive qualities?  Or like the girl next door–you grow up around her and don’t really consider her attractive because she’s so ubiquitous, but then one day, BAM, she’s hot.”

Not really, Helen.  Being a male; the gender most widely accepted to be the more visual of the sexes, I can tell you that I am either physically attracted to a girl or I’m not.  There’s no amount of “cool” or “sweet” that is going to make a girl attractive to me if I didn’t already think she was.  All that would do is make for a cool, sweet girl that I’m still not attracted to.

I wish it wasn’t like this.  I’ve dated many girls that I would have loved to have been attracted to because they had great personalities and were sweet and kind but I just couldn’t find myself developing a desire to jump their bones.

For me (and I think a lot of other men), physical attractiveness and personality are mutually exclusive.  On the other hand, I know plenty of guys who have developed an attraction to their GF or wife by getting to know them.  As hard as I try, I’m just not wired like that.

I also think that 25-30% of women being attractive on first sight is about right or a little high.

This is why you see things like guys not caring too much about what a women does for a living or the level of her intelligence.  It’s certainly nice to have but it’s not going to influence if I think she’s hot or not.  Mental stimulation is great but I can get that elsewhere if need be.

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Goldie

Question re #384

“This is why you see things like guys not caring too much about what a women does for a living or the level of her intelligence.  It’s certainly nice to have but it’s not going to influence if I think she’s hot or not.  Mental stimulation is great but I can get that elsewhere if need be.”

I agree that, with most men, if he doesn’t find you attractive at first sight, you can forget it. But, if he does, what else counts? From my experience, looks help a woman get a first date at most, but you cannot get a second, third date, or a LTR on looks alone. Since you mention a woman’s level of intelligence, I’m curious: for male commenters here, does it ever become a factor? All other things being equal, would you choose someone that’s more intelligent, less intelligent, closer to your own level of intelligence, other?

367. 372
elle

Agreed.  Don’t sleep with any man because you’re afraid some other woman will or he will leave you or any other fear based reason.  Your body, mind and emotions are precious, and if you don’t cherish them no one will.
Evan is right.  Find that connection outside of sex first.  If all the guy wants is sex, well NEXT! Simple.

368. 373
ugene

It seems that there is no use in being a nice girl.  i am educated, smart, good looking but a little overweight.  I am in my late 30′s in Miami and it seems all the viable prospects have dried up. Why would any man date a woman like me who is loyal, sincere and trustworthy, when he can go find a bimbo with fake triple D’s, fake tan, fake blond hair, and dressed like a cheap hooker?
They don’t need a relationship because they just move on to the next bimbo.  i am about to give up on dating.  i am so disappointed and disgusted with the whole scene.

369. 374
TaniaStar

Being a modern woman is difficult, but it can be an advantage too. I believe that there are real men out there, so do not sleep with some guy just because you want to keep  him! This is not healthy relationship, so be strong and move on.

370. 375
Still-Looking

Goldie @ 385
You  asked, “I’m curious: for male commenters here, does it ever become a factor? All other things being equal, would you choose someone that’s more intelligent, less intelligent, closer to your own level of intelligence, other?”
I might have an initial attraction to a woman based solely on her physical appearance but it is her personality and intelligence that will keep me around.  A bimbo I can tolerate for a few hours but after that I’d rather talk to myself in the mirror.
I’d much rather have a relationship with a woman who is at least as intelligent as I am.

371. 376
judy

SLUT
Sorry, I really hate that word which is highly offensive in the British language.
There are certain words that you just don’t use of a woman, thank you.
Would it be too much to ask, to use different vocabulary?

On the subject of sex, I think a woman has equal rights to men.  However, that does not mean that she’ll get equality (and neither will he necessarily).
If she wants a one-night stand, she’ll probably get it.
If she/he wants a relationship, she is far wiser for safety reasons (hell, there are some nutters out there!!!!) to know him better, and also, to see how compatible their ideas are.
Recent case in kind – I meet a man (rather lovely actually) and we don’t sleep together.  During the conversation, he says that he cannot sleep at night, and works until 5 a.m. in the morning (from 11 p.m ).  From this, and the rest of the conversation, I understand that, since he is rather the passive type, and has many girlfriends (of 20 years duration), SEX is not a high priority for him.
For me, it really is and we would not be a good match.
Imagine if we slept together on a first date???

372. 377
judy

Shas 371 – Bullshit, really.

373. 378
judy

Lance 104 – I missed your post and just read it.  The second part made me laugh out loud.
If you can learn a lot in a conversation about a woman, the reverse is true.  A man I know went on a date with me and literally talked himself out of my bed.  (From the very first sentence).  Sometimes, a man’s vocabulary in itself can do it.  I’m not necessarily talking about obscenity, but revealing that all he actually wants is sex.
An extract of his conversation – he travels a lot and is very, very often out of the country and this broke up his marriage and his second relationship.  Both women were sexually very demanding (!!!)
No way would I sleep with him.  If he’s around to sleep with I mean.  (But he put me off right from the start).