Dating And Divorce: Is It ‘Survival Of The Sluttiest’?

Dating And Divorce: Is It 'Survival Of The Sluttiest'?

In a Huffington Post article, New York comedian Juliet Jeske lamented that after the end of a nine-year relationship, she no longer knows how to date. She describes her experiences this way:

“As a person who is by nature very direct and to the point, dating is a mystery trapped in a puzzle, tucked in a fireproof safe thrown down a mineshaft. I just can’t figure it out.”

She goes on to say that “It is just sort of expected by many that you start the physical part of the relationship first, and then see if either partner wants to continue after the fact, sort of a try before you buy situation. Sex before emotional attachment, sex before any form of relationship, sex before everything.”

Jeske is complaining specifically about dating in New York, but I think this phenomenon is universal. I mean, how many times have I said that “men look for sex and find love and women look for love and find sex”? What Jeske doesn’t seem to get is that it’s not an either/or.

You don’t have to sleep with a guy on Date 2 just because some other woman will. That other woman is most likely being used and is wondering why all the guys she sleeps with never amount to anything.

What women DO need to understand is that men are driven by attraction, sex and testosterone. And if you think it’s ridiculous that he’s going to want to have a little foreplay before you’re in a relationship, you’re going to be perpetually frustrated by reality.

Instead of complaining that men are interested in sex (duh), how about you figure out a way to better connect with him outside the bedroom during those first few formative weeks/months? And if all he wants is sex, just ditch him. It ain’t that hard.

Read the article here and let me know your thoughts in the comments below.

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Comments:

  1. 331
    Katarina Phang

    Annie, it may happen that way (friendship first and then relationship) but still without physical attraction most people won’t venture into relationship.  You can still be attracted to your friends physically.  Sometimes circumstances just don’t allow friends to be a couple until much later.  That doesn’t mean, however, the physical attraction wasn’t there.  This doesn’t invalidate my statement.

  2. 332
    Goldie

    @ #345 & 342, I have a sneaky suspicion that most, if not all, guys are to some extent physically attracted to their “platonic” female friends, even if the female friend is not available at the moment. First thing that happened to me after my divorce was all my platonic guy friends calling and emailing to ask me out.
     
    Apparently it’s different for women, from the way people talk about the dreaded friend zone. But at least some one-sided physical attraction is there.

  3. 333
    Greg

    Katarina you are greatly overestimating how much physical attraction means to a guy.  A guy cannot tell if hes into you after one date.  You’re a stranger.  He can only tell if he wants to have sex with you.  And if he asked you out on the date the answer to that question is yes.  If takes time for you as a girl to know if the guy likes you for who you are or just views you as a piece of meat.  Sleeping with him on the first date greatly decreases the chance that you will know whether or not he sees you as a fun time, or as a real person.  
    It seems to me that many women think a guy has to “like” them to have sex with them, because women generally do not sleep with men they don’t like.  Men will willingly have sex with girls they don’t find to be very attractive, girls they would be embarrassed to be seen with.  Even famous, rich powerful men do that.  I hate trying to tell some of my female friends that a certain guy never ever loved them, because they refuse to believe it. 
    And finally guys are not turned off physically by early sex.  Some men are just turned off from seeking a serious relationship with such a woman.  I’m not justifying their actions, I’m just saying that’s how many men feel.  If it wasn’t true then this article wouldn’t have been written.

  4. 334
    Katarina Phang

    Physical attraction means a lot to a guy.  Here’s a story of a guy I used to date (the liberal guy who thought if a woman had sex too soon it meant she wasn’t serious in wanting relationship).  I would say he was an average looking guy but we had fun and good sexual chemistry (physical chemistry doesn’t always translate into sexual chemistry, especially for women…you can enjoy sex more with less handsome guys) so we had sex early.

    He was obviously so into me (between the two of us, I was the better looking).  So what’s the chance he would dump me after sex?  Zero.  Cause I was a great catch to him.  Why would he dump a fun, sexual, smart, pretty woman that gave him great company?

    That would be stupid.  I bet if a supermodel beds you on first date, Greg, you won’t be able to resist her yourself.  So stop this nonsense about how that will affect how you feel about her.  It’s about who has more options.  It’s about the perception of “high value.”  Any guy will keep a woman he perceives as high value, no matter when the sex takes place.

    He told me also how a black young model broke her heart.  They had sex on second date and she asked for exclusivity before they did to which he instantly said yes.  You know why?  Because again, she’s gorgeous to him.  He dated up.  She was a catch to him.  Why wouldn’t he want to be exclusive with a young stunning model?  It spares him from “work” (dating is work).

    After 6 months she was losing interest and he was left broken hearted. 

    A guy I recently dated told me about her last girlfriend of 9 months, of whom he said looked like a “super model” so they also had sex on second date.  But then she got some “psycho” issues so he had to dump her.

    Don’t tell me physical attraction isn’t paramount.  It is, especially for men.  Guys know within 4 seconds if they want to see a woman on a second date.  Just because they have sex, it won’t change how he feels about her unless she did something horrible after that.  Physical attraction is the magnet.

  5. 335
    Saint Stephen

    @Justme (#341)
    I agree men are hypocrites. i’m only trying to point put out that the hypocrisy apply to both genders. Is our biological imperatives which evolution couldn’t completely erode and as such we are often helpless victims to it. Men have the biological urge to spread our genetic code and seek out a gate keeper, while women have the same to seek out the best hunters- for comfort, status and security. In our modern days this has translated into men becoming studs and women gold diggers.

  6. 336
    Saint Stephen

    @Katarina phang
    You need to understand that Men and Women are different. Women are more complex than men. Men tend to be more Animalistic in nature and as such respond more to our impulses as regards to sex and violence. There is a great probability that a man who goes out with 10 different women on a date will end up feeling attracted to all of them, while a woman who goes out with 10 men may feel attracted to only one. And as such is extremely difficult for a man to distinguish between love and lust till after a week or month. Your laws of attraction (of feeling attracted in 4 seconds and remaining attracted) applies to women- not men.

  7. 337
    Annie

    @346

    I suspect that men tend to find women pleasing enough to sleep with, a lot of the time, even if the women aren’t “hawt”. It amazes me what arouses men sometimes. It can be the curve of a neck, the smallness of her hands, even her knobly knees :)

    So yeah I think you are right, that a lot of men with plantonic female friends, would still be somewhat attracted to them.

    @343

    Thanks for the reply.In the long run of course we need attraction. My comment was more about how you may not be attracted to some-one initially but end up feeling immense passion for that person. I think this is possible and is something to think about when dating.(For both men and women).

     

  8. 338
    Goldie

    I have a hard time believing this: “Men will willingly have sex with girls they don’t find to be very attractive, girls they would be embarrassed to be seen with. ” I’ve had these conversations with my guy friends, and with people I’ve dated, and they all pretty much repeat what Katarina says: if there is no physical attraction, then there isn’t going to be a second date. For anything at all to happen, there has to be a physical attraction. I remember being puzzled by that, because I’ve had guys that I’d originally found unattractive, “grow on me” if they were nice and fun enough. Apparently that’s not the case with men.
     
    Not to play the age card, but yeah I can see how college kids, guys in their early 20s may be able and willing to hit anything that moves. Men in their 40s do not have that luxury, or that kind of time ;) 
     
    With that said… Physical attraction and being able to sleep together do not equal being able to commit or have a relationship, much less love. Even for women like Katarina or myself, these are two different things. Even more so for men.

  9. 339
    Greg

    Katarina you continue to confuse dating and relationships.  And a guy can be physically attracted to a girl and still not like her. Men will go on a second date with a hot girl.  But it doesn’t mean that they like her.  I think there’s even an article on this.  Women tend to go on dates only sleep with guys who they like.  Guys have no problem sleeping with women they don’t like.  No guy wants to embarrass himself on a date, so even if he’s not interested in the woman he will put his best foot forward and make sure she has a great time.  
    And no guy can really know enough about a stranger to realistically want to be exclusive with them after 2 dates.  Your friend just wanted the sex and he only got burned because it turned into a 6 month relationship.   If they slept together after the second date and she never called him again, I don’t think he would have cared too much.  Anyways your friend sounds very shallow .  Dating a hot girl doesn’t mean you’re dating up, unless you have low self esteem or are desperate.
    I personally have never really cared if a girl I’ve known for only a month disappears. Why? Because she a stranger and means nothing to me.  So if a supermodel wanted to sleep with me on a first date, then great!  I would enjoy the experience and the ego boost.  I would ask her out again because shes hot.  But if she never returned my call, I wouldn’t care because she’s still a stranger who means nothing to me. I fall in love with who a person is, not what they look like.  And it takes time to discover who a person really is.  
    Many men have no problem viewing women as objects.  So it doesn’t matter if a woman is fun, smart and sexy as you claim you are.  Women who get dumped after sex aren’t dumped because they aren’t great women or because they were psycho. It’s because the guy never cared in the first place.  He saw the woman as an object, easily got what he wanted and was never even given the chance to view her as a human being.  If the best thing a woman has to offer is sex on a first date, then some men will probably still see her object and not bother to look further.  And for the last time, it has nothing to do with how hot, fun, great or psycho you are.  

  10. 340
    Greg

    @Goldie

    Well maybe its seems its just young men that will bonk anything that moves.  But look at Bill Clinton, Tiger Woods, Governor Arnold S. and Steve Phillips from ESPN.  Monica Lewinsky was not attractive, and Tiger Woods was having sex with a very unattractive waitress from Denny’s.  And the governors mistress looked awful.  I’ve yet to talk to anyone who found these women attractive. So yes there are men who will have sex with women that they would never fathom being seen with in public.    

  11. 341
    Katarina Phang

    And no guy can really know enough about a stranger to realistically want to be exclusive with them after 2 dates.  Your friend just wanted the sex and he only got burned because it turned into a 6 month relationship.   

    And I’m tired of repeating myself because you obviously don’t read. 

    Please don’t generalize, some guys do know alright.  Or at least they think/feel they do know because they feel it in the gut.  

    And no, you don’t know him…he’s the mushy type and he likes being in relationship.  He wanted to be in relationship. Of course he wants the sex too but he was so into the gal the way he was so into me.  In his case it’s the women who weren’t so into him.  It works both ways, alright?

    As I said, sometimes it’s the women who disappear.  I have done that a few times. 

    I was just explaining what “being into someone” means, then you go off the tangent about men who sleep with women they don’t find attractive nor like.  Alright, that happens, how does that DISPROVE the fact that guys will keep seeing women who they are into no matter when the sex takes place.

    Being into is not about, I repeat, knowing if a person is right for you in the beginning.  It’s about that instant gut feeling that you want to see someone because you’re so attracted to him/her and it’s mostly about physical attraction first.  Everyone, except you perhaps, have experienced that (again, how many relationships have you been in?  I suspect none).

    As usual, you are using opposite parameters to justify your position.  You always need to be right, don’t you? 

    I didn’t confuse dating with relationship (stop being patronizing, I know the difference…I’m a dating coach).  it’s about your repeated nonsense that guys will think differently after early sex about a girl.  I have proven it to you, that’s BS!!  I have shown you many times guys will keep coming back if they’re into a woman to which your excuse becomes they just come back for the sex.  Really?  For 6-9 months?  I thought your notion was they would just disappear and show no interest whatsoever???

    And these people had exclusive relationship, and that was not relationship enough for you? 

    And then you said this:

    Your friend just wanted the sex and he only got burned because it turned into a 6 month relationship.   

    DUH????

    So they did become a couple of some kind, didn’t they?  Exactly what I said that the 2nd date sex didn’t ruin it? 

    Then why are you still insisting on your personal preference as a generalization of what all men think/feel? 

    And Goldie, you are right, I’m still asking for proof that “guys want sex all the time” or “guys just want easy sex” or “guys will want to have sex at a drop of a hat.”

    I haven’t seen it that much.   

  12. 342
    Katarina Phang

    Many men have no problem viewing women as objects.  So it doesn’t matter if a woman is fun, smart and sexy as you claim you are.  Women who get dumped after sex aren’t dumped because they aren’t great women or because they were psycho. It’s because the guy never cared in the first place. 

    And, again, how does this disprove my assertion?

    So basically you agree with me that guys who leave after sex is because they’re not into her and just want sex?

    Thank you.  I rest my case. 

    If the best thing a woman has to offer is sex on a first date, then some men will probably still see her object and not bother to look further.  

    Yes, the key word is “some.”  Some men will keep seeing her and even marry her (as in my case and I’m sure many others’). 

    And, no, no the best thing she offered wasn’t sex but it was an incentive for them to explore further.  Don’t make sex your enemy. 

    And for the last time, it has nothing to do with how hot, fun, great or psycho you are.  

    You’re entitled to your unfounded belief.   Many guys flee because women become needy and clingy and worse yet stalkers.  I heard it so much from guys I date.

    And it has everything to do with how fun, great and cool you are as a woman to make him want to explore further with you beyond sex.

    I have proven it.  You have no experience to base your assertion/belief on.  Only dogmatic claims and generalization over and over. 

  13. 343
    Saint Stephen

    @Jadafisk (#340)
    You linked us to an anecdotal post.
    However i’ll quote a phrase from the link you provided. 
    Of course, in many cultures, including those in China, India, Indonesia and parts of our own country, a virgin is still a prize when it comes to finding a wife. Before the advent of birth control, having a virgin bride was the best way a man could make sure that any children she bore would be his own, especially since a virgin was considered less likely to stray later, Buss says.
    According to the stats, is states that virgins were 7 to 11% by different age range and if we go by the stats, consequentially that small percentage will have abundance of men that would be more than happy to marry them. They may have a hard time in the dating world, but that will only ensure they have a happy/successful married life.

      

  14. 344
    Saint Stephen

    @Katarina phang
    My problem with you is that you keep making wrongful assumptions. What makes you believe a man can’t judge a woman on a first date just the way you do to men? It has nothing to do with if he was into her or not. virtually all men can be into a woman they go out on a first date with. Firstly a man who isn’t into a woman wouldn’t bother to ask her out on a date. Secondly how would the lady know if was only seeking sex or not?
    A man who holds a certain standard he expects his future wife to attain, will judge and dismiss a woman who failed by having sex with him on a first date, regardless of if she’s hot or fun to be around with. Even a man who isn’t into a woman might stick around for further sex if they had it on a first date.
    And please enough of your marriage which started with sex on a first date. That’s the only point u’ve been using to justify your assertions since this thread started. Truth is how many commentators in this thread can confidently say like you that their marriage started with sex on a first date? Including Evan, et al.  

    @Goldie (#352)
    You amaze me. I mean did you expect the men to tell you they will sleep with virtually everything that moves in skirt? I believe they told you what you wanted to hear. Ask yourself how many men would ask out a lady they felt no physical attraction and if all actually translated to a second date.
    Men whether old or young necessarily wouldn’t need to find a girl attractive to have sex with her.  
     

  15. 345
    Jadafisk

    There’s a huge difference between “Most men want virgins and merely settle for non-virgins” and “Female virgins have a secure niche of admirers due to their own small population percentage, even though most men may evince a preference for their own experienced counterparts for marriage,” Stephen.  
     
    Also, there seems to be no non-anecdotal evidence to be found regarding this issue. If you have some pertaining to the attitudes of modern US males on the subject, I’d love to see it, but admittedly all I have to go on are the statements of men whenever this subject comes up, on and offline, as well as the stories of everyday female virgins about… not exactly being chased down in the streets by men with wedding rings.

  16. 346
    Helen

    Maybe we need clarification from the men here, to get some of the percentages straight. Because otherwise, people will keep arguing in circles, not really getting the others’ viewpoint.

    What it seems like you men are saying is that you would be fine with having sex with ANY woman, even if you don’t find her attractive. So, you would have sex with about 100% of women if they wanted it. Is this about right?

    But sex and attraction are apparently not the same thing. So, roughly what percentage of women would you say you are attracted to? And would you NOT be attracted to her if she were fine with having sex the first time, or does attraction not depend on that at all?

    Then, what percentage of women would you consider long term material?  And is this something you can tell pretty much right away, or does it require a large number of dates?

    Clarification is appreciated.

  17. 347
    Goldie

    @ St Stephen # 358
     
    “I mean did you expect the men to tell you they will sleep with virtually everything that moves in skirt? I believe they told you what you wanted to hear.”
     
    You seem to believe a lot of things that make no sense to me. What the heck is this one supposed to even mean?! I do not need to be told that I am physically attractive, if that’s what you’re implying. I already know I am. Geez. My friends and I were talking in the abstract. They were the ones to bring it up, usually. I have no problem believing them, as they have no reason to lie to me.

  18. 348
    Greg

    @Helen

    Great questions!  Sex is not all about attraction to men.  My friends used to group girls into crude categories.  “Doable”, “not doable” and “doable when drunk or extra horny.”  I think 50% of women would be considered “doable” and maybe 65% are “doable when drunk/horny.”  By contrast only about 1/2to 2/3 of the “doable” women would be considered attractive, meaning that about 25% to 30% of women guys meet are considered attractive at first glance.
    Guys tend to be a bit more rational with their feelings, and are not looking for crazy emotional chemistry on a first date.  We want the girl to like us, and we want to have a good time.  By getting to know the girl we can determine whether or not she has the qualities  of someone we can see ourselves with long-term. And it is easy to determine quickly someone who is NOT long term material.  One the first date I CAN rule someone out immediately, but I CAN’T determine whether someone will be a great fit.  Seeing if a woman has the qualities that make her long-term material requires a few dates.  Of course extreme good looks can cloud judgement!
    Men can usually list the reasons why we like a certain woman.  By contrast many women who write to Evan, post on this site, and many of my female friends are in “love” or want relationships with guys who have no redeeming qualities that they can actually list or are complete douches by their own admission. Of course this can happen to guys too, but it happens to women much more.  Many women get involved with guys just because of “chemistry” and “excitement,” which is starting to sound more to me like “emotional roller coaster.”

  19. 349
    Greg

    Sorry a clarification.  An additional 15% of women are “doable when drunk/horny.”  That raises the total of women a man might sleep with to 65% encompassing both doable(50%) and doable when drunk/horny (15%).  

  20. 350
    Helen

    Greg, thanks for the clarifications.  It sounds as though the bottom line is that if a single woman wants sex, she can fairly readily get it (as most women fall into the 65% of at least some men).  I’m more puzzled by the only 25-30% of women being considered attractive by men.  I’m not asking anyone for an explanation of that; just puzzled.

  21. 351
    Joe

    Annie @ 295:

    If you eliminate every male who has ever objectified a woman, you have an incredibly tiny dating pool.

    Helen @ 364:

    Greg says that 25-30% of women are considered attractive at first glance.  Haven’t you met people who you didn’t consider attractive when you first saw them (or their picture), but with subsequent looks or getting to know them, you could see that they had attractive qualities?  Or like the girl next door–you grow up around her and don’t really consider her attractive because she’s so ubiquitous, but then one day, BAM, she’s hot.

  22. 352
    Annie

    @ Joe 365

    I’ll rephrase. Any man that has ever “used” a woman as a sex-object, is out as far as I’m concerned.

    I’m probably being a bit dishonest however, as I’ll make exceptions to that rule depending on the man.

    I don’t agree with using another person for self-gratification. We lose our connection to our own humanity, and to the humanity of the other. They end up existing, to please us.

    Most people have done this in one way or another to other humans and I can accept a person who has realized it’s incorrect and changed their ways. But ethical behaviour and emotional maturity will stop you from doing this and if a person doesn’t view the world this way, then he and I are fundamentally incompatible.

    And yes, that reduces my dating pool, and that is one thing I really am okay with. To me, this is just too important. Thankfully, it appears that I’ve found just such a man.  We shall see I guess :) 

  23. 353
    Kelly

    This is the line I use when a guy wants to have sex and I am not ready… ” there are a million things to do between our first kiss and having sex and I don’t want to miss out on any of it!”
    Usually they are so intrigued that they are very eager to take the time to see what the heck you are talking about. Once you begin, they realize you are definitely not their usual girl and they will LOVE going at your pace! At anytime you can move faster but for Petes sake slow down and enjoy the journey. Trust me, the guys will adore you!!!

  24. 354
    Lynnz

    I’m guessing that Lance is older, as I am.  Things were nice when we were younger, in a lot of ways, and especially on the West Coast, where I grew up.  There were fewer people, feminism was still in a pleasantly naive stage, and we hadn’t all been Kardashian-ed to death.  Case in point, I have small breasts and was never given crap about it (although I’ve usually associated with nicer men).  :) 

    At any rate, I slept with my husband on our first date, and have had a fulfilling relationship with him for 22 years.  I like him.

    But things have changed.  I can tell.  I have kids who are 18 and 20, and they are dealing with dynamics I couldn’t have imagined or anticipated 25 years ago.  People in general aren’t as nice.  The world isn’t as nice.  The economy is in no way, shape, or form as “nice.”  Challenges and stresses are extreme.  Of course, male-female relationships have changed.  It just isn’t 1982, Lance.

    And EMK is right.  It’s a new and uncomfortable rightness, maybe, but it’s rightness, nonetheless. 

    Thanks, Evan, and thanks for saying “shit,” as well.   :)

  25. 355
    Melina

     
     
    I’m 28 and for the 3rd time I’ve been dumped because I wouldn’t put out.
     
    First guy I dated, I didn’t put out for 3 months and got dumped. Second guy, there were loads of issues anyway, but he wouldn’t commit without me putting out first so I got dumped.
     
    Third guy, he said he agreed with my stance on waiting and implied he will wait as long as we could “fool around “with each other. I thought ok I better compromise, I like him and I’m fast approaching 30 and I don’t tend to come across people who share my views. So anyway, we fooled around whilst discussing the subject of exclusivity for about 9 months. Eventually he said he’d love to commit but wants proper sex, and in any case he’s worried that since I haven’t had sex with anyone, if the relationship didn’t work out, I’d have a lot more to lose than him.  I walked away from him because I thought that after 9 months of seeing each other surely he should know what he wants. Again, I guess compatibility issues were one problem and lack of putting out on my behalf was another. I’m just so fed up because as a girl you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I just don’t get why I never come across any guy who is willing to commit without sex? :-s
     

  26. 356
    Susan61

    @Lynnz #368.  Yes, the world was a nicer place, wasn’t it?  Before breast implants, Botox, internet porn, the “hooking up” culture, kids dumping each other on Facebook, the Kardashians. :-)   The culture has gotten cruder, sluttier, people have gotten ruder, the economy has everyone stressed and I hate to say I think things are going to worse before they get better. 
     
    I’m 50.  My parents married in order to have sex, as did most of their generation (in their late 80′s now).  Now that sex is readily available outside of marriage, you have the current situation we are in.  My mother laments that “women took themselves off the pedestal”.  In a way, she is right.  She would be horrified to see some of the internet porn that is readily available to men (and women) in the privacy of their own homes.  When I was younger, men had to risk shame by going to video stores and standing in the adult section, buying Penthouse from behind the counter at the 7-11 or going to adult stores in the “bad” section of town.  Now, you have hardcore porn, full length movies, at your finger tips.  Who needs a real woman with real, perhaps slightly sagging breasts when you can have perky, implanted 25 year old tanned breasts?  
     
     
     
     

  27. 357
    Shas P

    Men should only marry virgins..But if they are not marriage minded they are free to indulge in dating, girlfriends,relationships,flings,one-night stands, escorts , massage parlours

  28. 358
    Paragon

    @ 340.
    BS.
    If guys are reluctant to do female virgins, it is *only* where there is a negative correlation between female virginity and physical attractiveness.
    Otherwise, men *universally* prefer females to be virgins.
    And no amount of spurious media spinning, or embellished/fabricated anecdotes will change that. 
    But keep deluding yourselves, girls(by projecting your own biases onto men).

  29. 359
    Paragon

    I think it should be pointed out, that the *vast* majority of males are not promiscuous, even if only because they don’t have the options(which makes them unlikely hypocrites in this regard).
     
    But, like so many others, many of the women here are so *fixated* on the top %10-20 of the most attractive males who *have* those options, that they are blind to false generalizations(I have met very few western women who either had the intuitive faculty, or the integrity, to acknowledge this).

  30. 360
    Paragon

    @ 119
     
    I disagree.
     
    Long term/short term mating(LTR vs casual sex) *are* different evolutionary strategies, with conflicting optima.
     
    So, the more someone’s behavior enables one, the more it hinders the other.
     
    And this applies to both sexes that are a *party* to casual sex – they are *both* hindering their prospects for a LTR, on average(again, evolution operates on general, not special cases).

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