Male vs. Female Sexual Market Value

Male vs. Female Sexual Market Value

As you may know, I’m really big on statistics, metrics, heuristics, anything data-driven that is going to bring objectivity to something as subjective and emotional as dating.

I think it’s important that you know that 95% of people eventually get married.

Or that 95% of the country practices premarital sex.

Or that only 14% of men are over 6 feet tall.

And 5% makes over 100k.

Numbers put reality into perspective, and, from there, we can make healthy and informed decisions about love.

Nowhere do things get messier than when discussing the “sexual market value” of men and women.

But nowhere do things get messier than when discussing the “sexual market value” of men and women. We’ve touched on it in many forms before. Why older men want younger women. Why older women want younger men. How many emails men and women get on dating sites. The availability and merits of 7s vs. 10s. Lori Gottlieb’s seminal book, “Marry Him: The Case for Settling For Mr. Good Enough” is pretty much a meditation on this very subject. Gottlieb discovered that while she was in her early 30′s, passing up on the 7′s and holding out for a 10, by the time she reached her late 30′s, the 10′s were only interested in women in their early 30′s. Furthermore, the quality of the men available to her as a 39-year-old who wanted her own biological children was closer to a 5 (in her mind). Yes, I know these numbers are gauche, but we’re trying to establish a pattern. Not based on our feelings about how things should be or what would be right and just and fair. But simply by observing the behaviors and desires of men and women.

Enter Susan Walsh at Hooking Up Smart. I haven’t met Ms. Walsh, but I feel like we’re probably kindred spirits, because she decided to post this long, wonky post with a number of charts and graphs.

The premise of her post was to establish which gender, if any, had greater sexual market value – which is to say, more enduring appeal to the opposite sex over time. The term market value seems crude, but it’s the best possible term because, like economic market forces of supply and demand, these are completely self-regulating. If a man thinks he can date a 10, but no 10′s want him, then, evidently, he’s overestimated his sexual market value. If a woman dates online and thinks she can date a man 10 years younger because she “looks good for her age”, but no men 10 years younger give her the time of day (apart from requests for NSA sex), then, well, she, too, has overestimated her sexual market value. Essentially, whether you’re a 3 or a 10 is not really your decision. The market will tell you what you can command. Just as it does with your own salary. Anyone who holds out for a 500K salary but finds that no one is willing to pay it will remain unemployed for a really, really long time. Anyway, back to the original premise:

I think we can agree in general that young women remain particularly appealing to men, even when it gets a bit creepy.

I think we can also agree that, for whatever reason, older men seem have more dating options than older women. There are exceptions, of course, but there are more 50-60-year-old men dating 5-10 years younger than women dating men 5-10 years younger.

I think we can agree in general that young women remain particularly appealing to men, even when it gets a bit creepy.

Based on this, there is a perception that men have greater sexual market value than women. This opinion is particularly espoused by hardcore men’s groups, because it’s an appealing narrative. They say something to the effect of: “American women are way too picky, way too masculine, way too selfish. But due to biology, I can be that 45-year-old guy who is hooking up with 27-year-old women while 45-year-old women turn into angry spinsters.” These are not my sentiments, but we do see them occasionally expressed in the comments section below, usually by dorky guys without much game who play the “biology” card early and often. Enter Susan Walsh. Using data from 200,000 people on OkCupid, Walsh takes on these men who overestimate their appeal to younger women and gives them a good old-fashioned scientific smackdown, concluding:

Mean male sexual value over 30 year period: 40.0

Mean female sexual value over 30 year period: 39.9

By this unbiased calculation of actual data, the male and female of the species exhibit the same sexual market value.

The OKCupid chart has good, reliable information for both sexes. Women need to understand that the male curve lags the female curve by about five years, is flatter and a little wider. That means you’ll have more competition from younger women as you age. You will never be hotter than you are at 22, so plan accordingly.

It’s important to recognize that some men display a motive for artificially elevating the SMV of aging males, so ignore any wisdom characterized as “red pill.”

In my own coaching materials, I always suggested that a woman’s peak was 27-30 in terms of her desirability to the most men, and that a man’s peak was 35-39. I’m going to stick with that premise, since I think OkCupid’s data skews young. In other words, while a 22-year-old may be hot, most 41-year-old quality men would never actually date or marry one. So to all of the readers in my core demographic: 35-55, have no fear. As long as most 22-year-olds are creeped out by 40-year-old guys, there are no shortage of men out there for you.

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Andrea

    Insightful post, Evan. I found it interesting that you are not a red pill supporter which is refreshing to a degree. A lot of the ‘manosphere’ is an advocate for the red pill including those commenting on Hooking Up Smart. Other well established advocates are Just For Guys, Married Man Sex Life, Dalrock just to name a few. What are your thoughts on the increasing red pill trend?

    1. 1.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I’m far from an expert on the “manosphere”, Andrea. But my perception of it is that while the concept of “red pill” wisdom is to teach reality, in practice, some of these guys are just bitter misogynists who disdain American women. What they have correct is that it is much more effective to lead with feminine energy than masculine energy in romantic relationships. Too bad that it’s hard to pay attention to the bigger message when they’re spewing such hatred. The only time I’ve ever been called a “mangina” was courtesy of a “red pill” blog, and that’s because I’m sympathetic to women and tell them to have more respect than to go out with men who treat them poorly.

      1. 1.1.1
        Andrea

        Calling you or anyone with petty names is stupid.
        Interesting to read your observations, Evan! I’ve noticed some disdain as well. As it turns out, some of these men stem from broken marriages which seems to have impacted their perceptions of women greatly. To be honest though I’ve noticed most contempt is geared towards modern feminism and against the recent raunchy culture (ex. Miley Cyrus).

      2. 1.1.2
        Frank

        I’m gonna have to look up “Red Pill”… OK all I got was a bunch of references to the Matrix…but I get the whole misogynist thing, totaly opposed to it, I have 5 sisters and a daughter, been around Women my whole life. And yes women STILL are a total mystery.  At 6’5″ 255lbs no one would ever accuse me of being a “Mangina” (at least not to my face, LOL!) And I speak 6 languages and have traveled more than most would dream…
        But let me make my Point (tongue in cheek)… I agree with the Feminists (I love them). What I have heartburn about and with is the Feminazi. A Feminist wants equality, fair treatment and respect. But they haven’t forgotten that “fēmina” means “woman” in latin in other words, they haven’t forgotten how to be a woman and be proud of that fact. 
        Unfortunately all the male sees is a Feminazi who yelled at him because he opened or held a door for her. And if he is a heterosexual male who even remotely (i say remotely because the media, pop-culture and new legislatures have been trying to kill us off or the gene for years) posses the “Alfa” gene (and he’s not as enlightened as I am to distinguish between the 2 camps) another male is on the path to becoming  a full fledged misogynist . And what does this misogynist do?  He gives up on American women, gets his Butt on a plane and flies to some country where he can find a woman who won’t be upset with him if he acts like a gentleman. But this action of course upsets American women. 
        Unfortunately he is either so far gone that he’s hard core misogynist. Or he’s borderline and after he brings her back she makes friends and he can’t handle it and goes hard core…  
        viscous circle… and no answer to end it. But my training doesn’t allow me to Gripe w/out offering SOME solution so I propose that 1ce a week all people (eh eh almost said men, there are a few women doing these jobs) all people working Manly Man jobs (your mechanics, constructors, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines) SWITCH with all the people working other jobs (your Day Care workers,  Nannies, Airmen and Cost Guards)  That way everyone gets a greater respect and understanding of everyone else’s position.  And one day a week can’t possibly cause un-reparable damage. 
        The list of jobs above was not in any way all encompassing nor was it meant to single any profession out it was however intended as a quasi satirical JOKE aimed at illustrating that PEOPLE choose their professions out of desire, want, necessity, and no choice. But they are chosen and we all play our rolls and we need to respect the “bit actors ” the “niche actors”, “extras” and “main actors” we all have our rolls to play, and we a ll need to realize this and respect everyone regardless of the roll. 
        Bottom line… No Woman or Man for that matter should be with someone who treats them poorly. 

        1. RustyLH

          Frank, this seems like a very thoughtful, fair post, and so, I am very surprised that it hasn’t received one reply.

        2. Jennifer

          I think your comment is insightful. I believe too that feminist was about equality of education, job availability and pay and decision making. Not about a woman acting like a man or being treated like a man as we should embrace femininity and being a woman. And I believe in men being at least a little the alpha male. Men are meant to be the physically stronger of the sex. And I for one love this 

      3. 1.1.3
        Red

        Hi, Evan, I’m the new girl.

        The guys in the manosphere are very straightforward. They say things like “Mangina” sometimes (although, I’m not sure who called you that) and that’s just how it rolls. We’re probably just different people, because I didn’t find being called names offensive. I also think that most people on there aren’t going to be name-calling (with the exception of standard internet protocol).

        I like that you go there, and there’s very little flattery and fake niceness. I like the general message of not waiting around for the weather to change. It’s very “seize the day.”

        I’ll say that value hyperinflation is equal in both sexes (based on a study that I read somewhere but don’t want to look up; both men and women think they’re two points hotter than they are, and can date two points even hotter). In the manosphere, however, this gets overlooked in terms of the men. As a woman, however, I get a lot of helpful information.

        The manosphere generally advocates acting more masculine to get women, not “leading with feminine energy.” There’s a reason that men have masculine energy, and wouldn’t ya know it, women like it. 

        There are a lot of really cool guys (and gals) on there. Not all of them are warm, but they’re generally honest and pretty open-minded.  

        Finally, no need for the generalization: this blog technically belongs to the manosphere, whether or not you like it. As do other blogs that you’d probably like better than the ones you’ve read. :)

  2. 2
    Jackie

    Evan I’m only 23 but I’m learning to accept the cold hard truth.
    If this wasn’t true you (or any of the other really solid L.A. based dating coaches) wouldn’t have a lucrative job.
     

  3. 3
    Jenna

    This is funny on multiple levels. I’m 29 and creeped out by most guys who are 35-39 for a long term relationship – what peak sexual market value? I’d put men’s more at 29-34. Also, I haven’t seen any negative difference in the quality and/or number of men I attract compared to when I was 22. I look young, dress well, have a much more active social life and more friends and interests than when I was younger, and as I’ve gotten older become much more confident and emotionally mature, so I feel pretty good about dating. I don’t see younger women having any advantage over me at this point – a lot of them are insecure, unstable, lack confidence and communication skills, and aren’t a realistic choice for a quality, commitment minded guy in his early 30s. Your beliefs say a lot about the kind of relationship you’re going to attract, so don’t succumb to a fear-based mentality.

    1. 3.1
      bronson

      So at 29 you find a 40 year old guy to be to old?
      I am 40 and my Ex is 29 we were happy for years.
      So you are saying I am old and unattractive because I am 40?

      1. 3.1.1
        tamara

        Everyone thinks differently and u just can’t take it personally. I’m 26 and recently dated a man 20 years older, I think he’s the hottest guy I’ve ever dated. Of course it doesn’t mean every guy in his late 40s is super-sexy, but getting older doesn’t stop a man from being sexy at all, as long as they don’t get too fat. :)

        1. Cathy

          Bronson? As in Charles Bronson? Sigh….That there says it all. @Tamara, I’ve dated much older guys, too. They just don’t look good at ALL. I know you’re trying to be nice but we need to face the facts. Most of them are not exactly “fat”, as you say, but they have a LOT of punch and have large male breasts, and stuff like that. It is NOT attractive to look at. Men that age chase after much younger women but they don’t seem to think they need to touch up their looks. they do need to. And also they should try to comb their hair and put some color in it. Jeez.

        2. Jason

          “getting older doesn’t stop a man from being sexy at all, as long as they don’t get too fat.”

          I tried dating women 40+. Can’t do it. I’m mid-30s. Not being fat isn’t enough for women. Better to be eating healthy and working out, doing squats to keep the but round and firm. Physically the 40+ women are not as a woman 10+ years younger. I’ve dated women as much as 8 years younger. If I can marry a woman younger than me, why would I want a woman whose good looks are on their last leg? Face it, we all get old, but I’ll marry the one that is going to give me several more years to enjoy her beauty.

          I want a woman who is beautiful, and whose company I enjoy. Why should I give up and half of what I want in a woman?

        3. tamara

          @Cathy: I disagree that they all don’t look good.  I don’t really know about male boobs cos I haven’t really seen many older guys unclothed. But that guy I dated earlier has a nice pleasant face, thick hair, and is slim, I consider that pretty gd, but maybe u’re fussier with looks. :) There are attractive older guys out there. 

          “Men that age chase after much younger women but they don’t seem to think they need to touch up their looks.” Firstly the guy I mentioned was not after much younger women, he wanted to meet women a bit younger. If a guy in his late 40s wrote on his profile that he wanted to meet women 25-30, I wouldn’t agree to date him; he’d sound too immature. Lots of older men who actually aim to date women just a bit younger than them. And I disagree that they all don’t think they need to work on their appearance. Lots of older guys work out, put effort into their dressing, etc. Probably more so than younger guys. Don’t be so hard on them. :p

          Plus look at the Advantages. Eg they would likely have slightly lower testosterone levels after a certain age, so they’re not as obsessed with sex. (Ok I guess to some women this is a disadvantage) 
           
          To some extent, I prefer dating guys at least 5 yrs older than me becos they’re more patient when I disappear cos of other problems/issues in my life. So the theory that women date much older men out of some deficiency might have some merit.

          I’m just saying there are some great older guys out there, not asking u to date an older guy who’s obese, immature, unsophisticated and shallow. :)

          @Jason: Well nobody insists tt u should date women 5+ yrs older than u. If u absolutely need a woman who’s fresh & beautiful for u to be happy, then I guess u shouldn’t compromise. I get why men prefer pretty women (who doesn’t? even I do), I just don’t understand why that preference is so strong, and at the cost of prizing other traits like character/intelligence. In 20 yr old guys, I get it; but once a guy is older and more mature? Maybe we need to grow up.
           

    2. 3.2
      Emily

      Tsk tsk tsk.
      I see a dissembler in thee.
      Whatever makes you feel better though…
       

    3. 3.3
      SpencerT

      Thats amusing a 29 year old woman creeped out by 35-39. This is why I like to stick to women 20-25.  Women 27-32 overestimate their power and attractiveness. Women 32-40 are feeling the shot clock and conduct dates like interviews not attempts to have fun and connect. To each his own. U do ur thing good luck 

      1. 3.3.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Stick to women 20-25, Spencer. Leave the adults to the rest of us.

  4. 4
    Dina Strange

    It’s always better to be healthy and rich, than sick and poor.

  5. 5
    Locutus

    Jenna,
    You’re creeped out by guys just 6 years older than you???  Then you go and put down girls who are younger than you calling them insecure and unstable.  Well aren’t you just the perfect princess??  You sound like a total suck up snob to me!!!  

    1. 5.1
      Kiki

      Why do you need to come here and insult women? If I were the host here, I would ban you again.

      1. 5.1.1
        Locutus

        Kiki,
        Really?  I’m sticking up for the women that Jenna just insulted!    Why are you angry at me for firing back at her, but you don’t get angry at her insulting comments??  Is it ok when women insult others, but not ok when men do it??  Is that it??  Hypocrisy at its best!!!  At least I had reason to be insulting- it was a response to someone who already made insulting comments!! 
        Are there any women here in their early to mid 20′s here because Jenna just said that most of you are insecure, unstable, and lack confidence.  If I was a 25 year old woman on here I’d be pissed at her ignorant comments and would fire right back at her!!!! 

        1. Elyse

          Honestly, Locutus?  You sound like an over-35 guy who’s bitter and angry that girls in their twenties are finding you creepy.  

        2. Elyse

          Also, I am under 25.  I’m 24.  And I definitely agree with her – guys in their thirties are creepy as heck.

          Evan is all about getting women to face up to reality, but I think men often need to swallow the bitter pill and consider the truth of their own attractiveness to women. The problem with a lot of “red-pill dating advice” is that there’s too much stroking of the male ego, and not enough stone-cold reality.  For the most part, women want men their own age – and I understand that the truth is often painful, but this is, nevertheless, the stone-cold reality that you are dealing with.  For the most part, no, women under 25 are not going to be interested in anything that a man in his thirties could potentially offer, and we do find it very creepy when older men express sexual interest in us.  Women value youthful good-looks to a far greater extent than many men realize.

        3. Seriously

          Jenna didn’t insult men or women. She said what she personally found creepy and how she personally felt about most younger women. Good lord, stating her personally feelings about the topic at hand shouldn’t open her up to your weak insults Locutus.

        4. Locutus

          To Seriously:
          Ok, then if I say to me most women over 40 are old bags you better not raise one finger to that because it is just my opinion and it’s not insulting to anyone.  You have no right to feel any ill feelings at all over my comment.  If you feel one bit insulted or irritated by my statement then you’re a total hypocrite!!!!!

        5. RustyLH

          @Locutus
          “To Seriously:
          Ok, then if I say to me most women over 40 are old bags you better not raise one finger to that because it is just my opinion and it’s not insulting to anyone.”
           
          Yes Locutus, you have to understand where you are at.  Evan’s clients are mostly women.  So yes it is not fair in the way things are sometimes viewed here.  We men often do get beat up for what we say and or how we say it, but many women will say some vitriolic things and nobody bats an eyelash.   So since it is OK for 20 or 30 something women to say what they want to say, I will ask something I have been biting my tongue on, because the fact is I am not as bad of a guy as many here want to believe, but now it seems it must be said.    I’ve seen this sentiment here, by women in there 20s, 30s, 40s, and even 50s..all women basically saying they are creeped out by men 5 to 10 years older hitting on them.
          If we posted that a woman older than ourselves hitting on us was creepy, would that fly, or would we be the targets of wrath for our insensitivity?
          The real truth and I will be the first to admit it, those comments should always be filtered out.  Who do they help?
          Either way, you and I both know that it is actually very rare for a woman in her mid 20′s to be creeped out by being approached by a man in his 30, so let it roll right off your back.   my 30′s, right before I got married were the best years of my life regarding woman.  And all of them were in their early to late 20′s.
           
          Edited it to be more politically correct.
          I use NoScript and was just authorizing several scripts related to this website, and noticed this.  I thought I had submitted it and yet here it sits in the reply window.

    2. 5.2
      SAL9000

      As a man in his early 40s who dates women in their 20s I’ve never been confronted with this “creeped out” stuff. Why? I surmise that women in their 20s that I approach are accustomed to being approached by men in their late (peak market value) 30s/early 40s . Don’t let the negativity bring you down.

      1. 5.2.1
        Elyse

        Yeah, I’m going to have to doubt that you’re actually dating many 20-somethings on any serious level.   The only way in which that’s true is if you’re extraordinarily youthful for your age. The vast majority of men in their early forties are not sexually appealing to women in their twenties.

        Now, make no mistake about us, women in our twenties are certainly “very accustomed” to being approached by men your age. It happens to us very often, and it’s certainly no secret to us that you’d ideally want to bone women our age.  And we’re going to be polite when you do approach us.  But most likely, no, we aren’t going to have any interest in pursuing anything serious with you.

        I’m sure you’ve approached women in their twenties who’ve been polite and perhaps even allowed you to buy them dinner. But I highly doubt that many women in their twenties have had any interest in you beyond that, unless you physically look like you could pass for 29.

        For the average guy, early forties is waaaay past prime.   A guy in his early forties who can get younger women to show *serious* sexual interest is going to be a very-far-above-average guy.  Are you sure that you aren’t mistaking politeness for genuine sexual interest?

        1. Shelly

          Sugar Daddy anyone??? :-)

        2. SAL9000

          Ever notice at any given time in history the hottest guys in Hollywood are in their late 30s to early 50s – today that’s Bradley Cooper, George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Matthew McConaughey (and many, many others)? They all date(d) or married women in their 20s or otherwise significantly younger. Are the girls they approach creeped out? Do these girls see these guys as way past prime? Nope and nope. Why? Like I said, the girls they target are used to being approached by high(est) value men at or near their peak (mid/late 30s – 40s).
           
          I use “date” euphemistically – that means I have sex and relationships with women in their 20s. However, I’d say less than 20% of the women I date are in their 20s. I see no badge of honor in it if I’m honest – the sex isn’t as good, there is drama, they’re generally not so good (or as good) at dating and relationships, and there can be generational differences in mutual interests, socio-political topics, and the like. FWIW the 20-somethings that I do end up having sex with and dating are generally doctors, lawyers and software/tech/MBA types.
           
          For some reason I can’t exactly define, IMO a woman reaches peak relationship value at 32-33, provided she keeps herself and her life together. I’ve always thought this, even when in my 20s, so that is where I spend the vast majority of my dating and relationship efforts.
           
          As to me? Am I youthful? Meh, everyone’s rich and hot on the Internet so I’ll spare the audience. If he keeps things together (like the aforementioned Hollywood hunks) a guy doesn’t start reaching peak market value till late 30s, and can plateau throughout his 40s. To put it bluntly, if you’re creeped out by the guys in the their 30s or 40s who are approaching you, you are not being approached by high market value guys at their peak (I intend this implication in the nicest way possible).
           

        3. Peter 51

          Elyse,
          Is it age that makes men creepy or attitude?  My fiancee is 24 years younger than me and everything feels perfectly natural.  However, I am sure that if I deliberately tried to seduce one of her friends or sisters for sex then I would come across as creepy.  I submit that any insincere attention is creepy.

        4. RustyLH

          @Elyse – Are you creeped out when you see a 40+ yo woman with a 20′s something guy?
          @Shelly – Is the 40 something woman with a 20 or 30 something man just a Sugar Momma?
           
          I will just ay this…if you are creeped out by older guys…fine…nobody says you have to date them or sleep with them.  Though, if you aren’t 40 something yet, you better hurry up and find a guy because soon, those creepy 40 somethings will be 50 or 60 somethings, and the creepy 40 somethings who are your peers will not want you.  Remember…40 somethings are creepy and want 20 and 30 something women.
          Also, it really is pointless to state how creeped out 20 something women are by creepy 40 something guys.  We know that some are creeped out by anyone more than 3 to 6 years older than they are.  We also know that not all 20 somethings think that way.  How do we know?  We’ve slept with them, and they rave about how good the sex is.
          Now if you said that the majority are not interested in marriage, I would agree, just as the majority of younger guys, even just a few years younger, are not interested in marriage.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          The majority of people want to date peers within 5 years. The only exception are guys who think that because they are attracted to younger women they deserve younger women. They don’t. Only 5% of marriages have a 10 year age span (off the top of my head). So please, stop beating the drum about how how foolish women are for passing you up. In fact, they have no shortage of options that they consider superior to you.

        6. RustyLH

          The majority of men want a woman that is a 9 or 10.  Isn’t going to happen for 80% of them.  Point is the same.  If what you are doing is working for you actually works, keep doing it.  If it isn’t, you might want to broaden your search.  Maybe when you open your mind to something, you also open your mind to other things.  Dr. Phil once had a show that showed just how insanely some women have closed minds.  One women could not date a man who wore sandals…or should I say, refused to date men who wore sandals.  Opening the mind, being open to new things is the point.
          Clearly, if a woman is not getting what she wants, the first thing to do is to find out if it is just something she is doing wrong.  Maybe she is sending out a bad vibe, or has a bad habit that is turning men away.  But then what does she do when the new strategies don’t work?
          Hey, a guy could go to a PUA to try to learn to pick up a 9 or 10, and even if he gets the strategy down perfectly, it doesn’t mean he will score a 9 or 10.  He might be unemployed, or very unattractive and no strategy is going to help.  Or there simply may not be enough to go around, and so he will have to accept a 7 or 8.  If he is so focused on never “settling” for anything but a 9 or 10, he may end up single for life.  The most obvious point is that if what you are doing isn’t working for you…something has to change.

        7. starthrower68

          For every 20-something female getting creeper out by a 40-something man hitting on her, there is a 40-something woman getting annoyed at the 20-something boy hitting on her.  Guess it all evens out in the wash. ;-)

        8. Den

          @Sal9000 – The hottest guys in Hollywood, speaking in terms do aesthetics, are Chris Hemsworth and Henry Cavill, aka Thor and new Superman (both are about 30/31).  I think you are confusing prestige and credibility with attractiveness.  Between the ages of 35-50, actors are given the chance to be taken more seriously, thus they get better roles, are more likely to earn awards, and make more money.  Are Pitt, Clooney, McConaghy good looking guys for their age?  Sure.  Are they the hottest, let alone in their prime?  Not really.  Those 3 guys were smoking in the 90s; not so much now.  However, like many men who increase in status with age, they trade boyish good looks and virile sex appeal for prestige and respect with age.  Hollywood is run by old men, so naturally they create a system that allows older actors to thrive.  

          In a decade or so, we will see if Thor and new Superman will be allowed to make that transition and hang up their red capes.  But even if they do get to trade virile, beefcake sex appeal for mature thespian credibility, women 16-60 will always prefer them in their cape wearing days.  

      2. 5.2.2
        Red

        I’d be impressed if you got one. What are you doing, dating hard-luck girls? Could you even get a date with someone your own age?

  6. 6
    Deb

    Evan
    Thank you for this…I’m 44 and have been a part of forwit mostly dominated by men who think the world is they’re oyster simply because their age compared to women their age.  TThese men tend to act like entitled adolescence who most quality women their age wouldn’t give the time of day.  So they go to the younger ones and never find anything fulfilling.  I’m so glad you and others are speaking the truth…especially for women who hear that stuff and think its true.  It’s been pointed out that all of the good roles in Hollywood are going to women over 40 now.  Times are changing I think.  

    1. 6.1
      Rebecca

      _I_ believed this.  At age 44 I got back in to the dating “market” and I really believed that the odds were stacked against me.  But really, even if the census data says that not ALL women my age can find a man our age to couple up with, LOTS of us can, and I feel lucky. 

  7. 7
    Sabine

    I’m 35 and prefer to date men my own age or older, 45 tops.  While friends tell me I look 28-29, that doesn’t mean I want to date younger men. Honestly, I think I would feel uncomfortable. It really is about what type of man or woman you are looking for. I have a friend who is 60, she thinks she acts and looks 50 but really behaves and has opinions like someone who is much older. Ironically, she also complains men want to date someone younger yet she does nothing to increase her sexual market value (which I feel is possible to a degree.)
     
    I do believe that your “spirit” (if I can say that without being rebutted b/c this is how I feel) is younger and fun, you can attract someone with a like quality of jovial sweetness that matches yours. Being honest with how you are on the inside and outside (ie don’t say you are a fitness enthusiast when you are more of a spectator than a participant) helps when you want to meet a true match instead of moulding yourself into something your are not. Play fair and you’ll increase your market value. :-) Oh btw, eating healthy is a great way to have an inner and outer glow regardless of your age. And, I am always reading something interesting (light reading, not “rag mags”) so I can chat about something interesting when I bump into people regardless of their age :-)

  8. 8
    Su

    I think that Evan is probably right when saying the woman’s peak is around 27-30 . I think men’s peak is probably more like 30-34.  Although at around age 22, I was still in college and dating guys my age… And so were my friends.  So from my experience I really doubt many 22 year old girls are dating 35-40 year old men! Many of my male friends even now date women their age as well. So, I think the men who think they can be 45 and date 20 year olds are delusional. This probably only happens if the man is insanely rich. 

    1. 8.1
      Ray

      Hi girls, Im 28y old male, and I easily date 17-23 year old girls. If you look fit enough, earn enough and have bals you can date 20 years old girls with no problem.
      If you ask me womans beauty peak is at 18-23 years in most cases. Offcourse there are always exceptions, I know 42 years old woman that looks better than a teenage girls. Its all about genetics and how well you take care of yourself.
      Cheers

      1. 8.1.1
        Steelheart

        “Easily” date 17-year-old girls, eh? 
        Thanks for confessing to statutory rape on a dating blog!

        1. Cupcake

          He didn’t say he slept with them .. so no.

  9. 9
    Chance

    Jenna said (#3):
    “I’m 29 and creeped out by most guys who are 35-39 for a long term relationship – what peak sexual market value? I’d put men’s more at 29-34.”
     
    What happens if a man is 34 years and 11 months old?  Does he go from being at peak SMV to creepy in a matter of a month?  I think people could benefit by being less rigid about age requirements and by approaching men/women on a case-by-case basis.  There may be some men out there in the 29-34 age bracket who may exhibit some the traits that creep you out, and there may be some men out there in the 35-39 age bracket who may be a good match.  Keep an open mind when considering your options :)
     
     
    Kiki said (#5.1):
    “Why do you need to come here and insult women? If I were the host here, I would ban you again.”
     
    Considering that you’ve said (on multiple occasions) that you wish all men would be banned from this site, it’s understood that you wish that Locutus be banned as well.  Duh.
     
    Elyse said (#5.1.1):
    “The problem with a lot of “red-pill dating advice” is that there’s too much stroking of the male ego, and not enough stone-cold reality.”
     
    I would agree with this assessment.  What it does for men is similar to what “Sex and the City” did for women – it inspires false confidence.  Another similarity SATC is that its followers spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing over attracting the opposite sex, while simultaneously trying to convince the world that they don’t need the opposite sex.
     
    Sabine said (#7):
    “I’m 35 and prefer to date men my own age or older…”
    Again, it’s in your best interest to not let age restrictions limit your options.  I’m pretty sure there are plenty of 31-35 y/o men out there that you are compatible with.  My girlfriend is your age, and I’m four years younger.
     
    “Oh btw, eating healthy is a great way to havean inner and outer glow regardless of your age. And, I am always reading something interesting (light reading, not “rag mags”) so I can chat about something interesting when I bump into people regardless of their age”
     
    Absolutely!
     
     

    1. 9.1
      Kiki

      Chance,
      I see here, on several occasions, men who jump at female posters, giving them derogative qualifications, or using a patronizing tone, or making derogatory implications by twisting their words, using them out of context, or creating straw-man arguments.
      This attitude not only does not contribute anything to the discussion, it repulses women.  Men in real life do not dare to act like this, and I would like to say to all women here – ladies, there are wonderful, normal men out there, who would not take advantage of you by misleading you to believe you will have a real relationship when they clearly have only a FWB in mind, and many normal, real life men would not think you are a stupid for having repeatedly suffered through heartbreak, but will realize it is only human, and most regular guys would not call you a “suck up snob” for wanting to date within your own age group.  The type of men who would dare to insult women are disporporationately represented on this blog, and I would leave it up to you to have your own explanation as to their motivations.  

      1. 9.1.1
        Chance

        Kiki,
         
        “I see here, on several occasions, men who jump at female posters, giving them derogative qualifications, or using a patronizing tone, or making derogatory implications by twisting their words, using them out of context, or creating straw-man arguments.”
         
        Women do these things just as often here.  You’re just choosing to ignore it.  Additionally, you often reach to be insulted by comments where the intent is not to insult. 
         
        “This attitude not only does not contribute anything to the discussion, it repulses women.  Men in real life do not dare to act like this”
         
        The beliefs/attitudes of most of the men here are a good representation of how most men think.  I’m guessing that many men on here are being more vocal than what they would be IRL because it’s not productive to freely express these opinions at work or in social circles.  The information they provide can be useful if women choose to use it.  I’m thinking of Lia as a good example:  she would make an effort to understand where men were coming from, and then use that info to her advantage.  I haven’t seen her post in a while…. Hopefully, that means she’s out there dating with much success. 
        What really isn’t useful is when women come on here telling other women what they want to hear:  that they are doing nothing wrong, that it ‘s always the man’s fault, or that men (as an entire sex) should change.  This affirmation certainly makes women feel better, but it is ultimately harmful because it doesn’t inspire the change necessary to be successful in relationships.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Either way, Locotus is gone. I got sick of having to edit his inflammatory and insulting posts. It’s not that he didn’t have somewhat of a point about the hypocrisy of some of our female readers. To wit: Women would go crazy if a man said that women over 40 were old hags, but men are not supposed to be offended if you say men over 40 hitting on younger women are creepy. The thing that he never figured out was that two wrongs don’t make a right. Life is too short to deal with relentless negativity and word-twisting, and so he will no longer be joining us in these parts.

          It’s funny to think that I’ve come under criticism in the past for banning dissenters from this blog or my Facebook fan page, especially when you look at the TREMENDOUS amount of dissent that has been posted over the years to my material. As always, you can disagree respectfully with facts and logic, but you can’t insult me or other commenters here. Sometimes, insults slip through the cracks, but we aim to create a safe community with a healthy dialogue. You can’t have that if you have to constantly fight off attacks. A man criticizing women isn’t inherently sexist – the problem is when he starts to make sexist remarks that undermine his objectivity.

    2. 9.2
      Sabine

      You’re right. I should not limit “range”. However, some men in their early thirties are not as “quick” to settle (though I cannot speak for all men). Also, many men who are 35 have a better idea of where their career is (or they are making plans to stabilize) and are less in the climbing mode. Likewise, if a man in his early 30′s met someone special he could be more apt to spend less time at the office. A friend of mine (he is 37, I think) is starting to value personal time more than work (I did point out he worked a lot and we chatted about ways he could improve income while working less) and is trying to work smarter instead of harder. Then again, this is not always possible. I don’t date someone based on salary btw. I really value intellect, wit and charm :-) Humor and personality is my weakness :-)

  10. 10
    J

    Well gee, Ray, then  I guess I’m in a lot of trouble, seeing as how I peaked at 23 and I’m now 32. Except, oh yeah, there was that really bad cystic acne problem I had way back then. Oh, and the fact that I’m now about 15 pounds lighter than I was then. Oh, and let’s not forget the braces I had to have for the second time (not to mention the veneers I got three years ago). 
    Needless to say, my point is that despite the fact that I may have a few wrinkles and stretch marks where previously there were none, my face is clear, my teeth are straight (and white!), I’m more fit and much more comfortable and confident with both who I am, and what I want out of life and love. 
    If this is how good I’ve gotten to be after all this time and effort, then I eagerly look forward to what I’ll look like at 42, even if the men at that age largely waste their time chasing young females who think they’re creepy. And thank you for acknowledging that not every older woman looks like a hag once she’s supposedly past her sell-by date. Plenty of older women do take the time to maintain their appearance. I just wish the same could be said for men. I can’t keep track of the number of overweight slobs who contact me on dating sites. Seriously guys, women like a hot body too! We shouldn’t be the only ones responsible for keeping ourselves looking good. 

  11. 11
    J

    I agree with the notion that keeping yourself fit is important (for looks as well as health). However, your assertion that women peak at 23 is incorrect, in my opinion. I am now 32 years old. At 23, I was not only at least 10-15 pounds heavier than I am now, but I suffered from cystic acne for many years. It started in my late teens and it took several years of treatment before it abated. I also needed braces again in my mid-twenties, along with the veneers I got a few years ago. 
    I’m no Jessica Alba but I flatter myself that even with a few wrinkles and stretch marks, I look a lot better than I did then. I’m also much more mature, self-assured and confident in myself than I was at that age. As far as I’m concerned, while there are many men who do worship at the Altar of Youth, let them chase their pipe dream. I want a man who wants a woman, not a twenty year old girl. 

    1. 11.1
      Joe

      J, note that the issues you mention were entirely under your control.  If you’d lost 15lb, gotten braces and acne meds at 23, your SMV would’ve been higher than it is now at 32.

      1. 11.1.1
        J

        Joe: Gee, why didn’t I think of that when I was being told by a girl I worked with that it looked like I had a tumor growing on my face?  Seriously, it’s not like I wasn’t fully aware of my appearance. I mean, what woman hasn’t spent the majority of her years after puberty lamenting how bad she looks? I went to the dermatologist for SIX YEARS during my twenties and all he was able to do for me at that time was prescribe antibiotics at progressively higher doses (which not only completely dried out my skin, but wreaked havoc on my digestive system). It wasn’t until my hormones leveled out after my twenties that my skin cleared. And I have been on and off diets ever since I turned 19. Ironically, it wasn’t until I swore off dieting two years ago that I really began to get in shape. And I didn’t realize I needed braces again until I was 25. I’d already had them in my teens, but two of my teeth started to shift after a number of years, plus they were inexplicably stained. Besides, it took me a year to save up for the braces (they cost $1800). It wasn’t like I wasn’t aware that there were things that could be made better. I did what I could but to say that those things were entirely under my control is incorrect. Thank you for your input but your assumption is way off.

        1. Cupcake

          What Joe is saying that if that was all taken care of your SMV would have been higher at 22. At 22 I had an ugly haircut and was way too skinny, but had I taken care of myself I would have been more attractive at 22 then I am now. I do think I’m much prettier now, but I know that I will never be as pretty as I could have been when I was younger, wasted my potential.

  12. 12
    Jenna

    I’m somewhat amused at the debate my comment inspired. For me personally — and it’s fine if others view this differently – marriage is a beautiful opportunity to grow throughout your life with someone and being roughly the same age, give or take five years, is part of that. I used to date men 10 years older in my early and mid 20s, but I wasn’t serious about them, even if we were exclusive. While I’ll sure have a fling with someone of any age, or a one night stand, that’s as far as it will go at this point in my life. And I wasn’t trying to bash all women under 25, but honestly, I was a mess then and so were/are many of the women I knew/know in that age group – not knowing who I was and what mattered in life, not understanding how to create my own happiness, not knowing how to be secure in myself. Since high value men marry women who are secure, love and respect themselves, and know what they want, many high value men in their 30s aren’t going to seriously go after women that young. Of course, as women age, they should keep a youthful, vibrant spirit rather than coming across as bitter and weighed down by life, and take care of themselves physically.

  13. 13
    morgan

    What happens to relative market values of each gender when having children is out of the equation for both sides?

  14. 14
    Still-Looking

    I find the various debates over SMV to be irrelevant.  Do women reach their peak at 22 or 32?  We only need to open a men’s magazine, such as Playboy, to reach the conclusion that the editors of those magazines have determined that the readers generally prefer younger women.  So what.
    What is relevant for dating is fishing in the right pond and having realistic expectations.  If I focus exclusively on women who are 10-15 years younger than me and are well above average in physical attractiveness then I’m going to have many lonely weekend nights.  If I had one more zero on my annual income and signed up on one of the sugar daddy websites it would be a different story (I’m not stating that every woman would be attracted by the increased wealth but some would).  
    Everyone is entitled to fish in whatever pond they prefer but if they are not getting any bites, it might be wise to head to a different pond.  It is incredibly easy to determine where one should be fishing – don’t message/wink/like/etc. anyone for a week.  After a week take a look at who has been contacting you.  Those are the people who will be interested.  

  15. 15
    MilkMae

    If you are in your thirties (woman or man) and you haven’t been in a relationship in a few years, your desirability is probably lower than you think.  Your value is illiquid.  If you work in a field that does not have many singles and/or most of your colleagues are of the same gender, then you have even more liquidity problems.  Attention on a free public dating website is not a metric of anything.  It’s almost like going to a bar and getting hit on by drunken men who got to bar by riding a bicycle.
     
     

    1. 15.1
      Sabine

      Your comment is interesting. Out of curiosity, do you feel this lack of desirability is apparent to someone that you meet for the first time (or is this appearance based)? I assume if you are not being pursued then you are not desirable, or need some tips on improvement since maybe it is something that is making you less appealing. What about someone who is recovering from divorce or someone who just breaks off a long relationship? I am curious. If a person took a six month “breather” to get their head straight, is this a bad thing? Can you tell if some one has not dated in years unless they say so? Thoughts please.  

  16. 16
    kathryn

    Wow… only 14% of Men are over 6 feet tall.   damn..   I may have to relocate to the Netherlands.
    I am new to this forum, newly back on the scene.   It’s interesting.   Please give me more stats.  They have a way of calming me down, and looking at things in a different way.  I am 42… I have decided statistically I should just chill out for the next 8 years, cause I have a feeling I have a great deal more selection at 50 than I do at 42. Because I have over estimated my Market Value, and so by the article, so have they.  At 50, we’ll both be smart enough to realize it :)))        

  17. 17
    Kiki

    “You never will be hotter than at 22, so plan accordingly”.
    I believe this to be true, now that I am 40, and having seen how my life, and the lives of female friends and relatives have developed, ever since our 20s. I used to hear the same statement from my late grandmother when I was in my early 20s, and I really hated her for that.  I could really not understand, how on earth I would be becoming less attractive with age (like 29 vs 22), and I thought she was getting senile or thinking in terms of what was true in her own youth, two generations ago.  But she was very particular that I need to meet the man I will eventually marry at the time I am at the university, because after that age the “choice of free men”  will dramatically shrink.  Now, looking back, I believe she was largely correct.   Among my friends, we all married eventually the boyfriends we dated at the last year at university.  The girls who did not have a boyfriend at the time, are still single, in our 40s.  Half of the women who married the then boyfriends are now divorced. Half of the women who divorced now have a new relationship and live-in boyfriends, but they failed to remarry (or they never wanted to, I am not sure about this one). And I am turning into my own grandmother, thinking what what advice I need to give to my now 10 year old daughter, about boys. It really is scary :-).

    1. 17.1
      Lau_ra

      Don’t agree – from what I see around is that those who married in their early 20s tend to divorce in their early 30s – as theres a lot of growing up to do while in your 20s, many couples simply grow apart. 

  18. 18
    Gina

    I don’t agree… am a47 year old female and very young men in their 20ies and 30ies want to date me and have dated me.. I have many more dates and fun then when I was dating online for the first time in my early 30ies before I married when I was 42 and am newly separated. Sorry for my english but I am german. I never expected sooooo many young men being into COUGAR’S!!!!

  19. 19
    Joe

    But how many of those men want a long term relationship with you, Gina?

  20. 20
    Cat5

    As a 50-year-old divorced female, I find this whole discussion…disheartening.

    1. 20.1
      starthrower68

      Well, God help us all when we feel lesser than because we cannot win the approval and desire of someone who reduces us down to an arbitrary ratings system.  While I understand the discouragment and frustration, I am never again going to be the 20-something ingenue (I was a 20-something, but never an ingenue).  I am at peace with myself, even while working for better things, and I think that’s how you have to approach it.  

  21. 21
    Morris

    I agree that in general men will peak later than women.  Men value traits that tend to skew younger.  Women value traits that tend to skew older.  But men shouldn’t fool themselves to think they will peak later in like simple because of age.  And women shouldn’t think they can’t peak older simple because of age.
     
    Men.  First you have to be climbing the food change as you age in order to be a better provider to even think this might apply to you.  If you aren’t smarter, richer and didn’t take care of yourself I don’t really think this applies to you.
     
    Women it’s true.  Physically a young 20 something is at the top of the beauty food chain.  But no serious man in his 30′s-40′s is going to want to marry a 20 year old.  And if you got fit and you weren’t fit in your early 20′s.  Or you had bad acne problems in your early 20′s and now you don’t.  Congratulation this probably doesn’t apply to you.

  22. 22
    Julia

    I personally think that at 32, I am more attractive than I was 5 years ago…but I digress…
    I never understood why people took so much offense to men peaking slightly later. I prefer men 4-10 years older than me so it works out fine. I am currently dating a man 7 years older than me, I find him very attractive and he thinks I am beautiful and youthful. I wouldn’t want to date men in their 20s, I tried to be open but I found interacting with men even 4 years younger than me to be a turnoff. I’ve grown accustomed to how a man in his mid-late 30s can treat me. He can take me out a few times a week or take me away for a weekend. I routinely got “date” offers from 27 year olds that involved going to his place to watch netflix. I think we all have room to date a few years up or down. However, to the men (and women) who think they can easily get a partner 15-20 years younger than them, unless you are exceptional and don’t minding dating less attractive as a trade off for much younger, you are probably going to find yourself striking out time and again.

  23. 23
    judy

    This article creeped me out.  I have seen men who are 8O and are very very sexually attractive.  It isn’t just about the body, although it helps.  And, although to be frank, I prefer men who are younger than that, sometimes it ain’t because you’ve got the body and the “power” to use it that you are still attractive.  I did  know a man of 60 who was well into body building but his mentality and general lack of courtesy put me off.
     

  24. 24
    Fusee

    Although I find this topic fun to read about once in a while, I believe the data to only be relevant to folks into the challenge of (briefly) dating the hottest or most successful person possible. Basically, for those folks into casual sex.
     
    For people who wish to develop a happy and healthy long-term relationship with a like-minded and compatible partner, I find pointless to worry about such data. Why? Because at the end of the day, people who are really looking for a serious relationship and who are mature enough to develop one will not care that much about “Sexual Market Value”. They will focus on how much they click, on their compatibility, on each other’s character, etc.
     
    Sure, SMV data explain trends and why people tick the boxes they tick on dating websites, but when two people meet and feel a connexion, all that stuff stop mattering. Those who can’t get pass their tick boxes and what they think they deserve according to their (perceived) SMV remain… what’s the word again? Oh, yes: single.
     
    So to women who worry that they have missed the boat because of such data: Stop the negative thinking! What matters for a successful long-term relationship is your Relationship Market Value, which we have a much larger amount of control upon.
     
    Although there was always a man willing to f*ck me when I was in my twenties, I was far, far, so far from my Sexual Market Value Peak. I actually reached my Relationship Market Value Peak first at age 30 and it looks like I just reached my Sexual Market Value Peak at 35. My husband finds me even more sexy and attractive now that when I was 32, go figure.
     
    So women reach their SMV peak at different ages/life stages, depending on many more factors than just their birth year. Same for men. People can reach (and plateau) at their Relationship Market Value Peak way past their Sexual Market Value one.

    1. 24.1
      Cat5

      That’s great Fusee that your husband finds you more sexy now than at 32.  Btw – I notice you didn’t say how old you are now.
      It’s also significantly different when you are married.  My now ex-husband thought that I was more sexy in m 30s and 40s than when he met me in my 20s.  But, we are divorced now.
      So unless you are divorced and in your 50s, I’m not sure you can appreciate the difference.  The difference between when I went on-line at age 45 (where I met my now ex-boyfriend) and now that I’m single again at 50…is significant.
      Do I attribute that soley to age? No.  But, it is a significant factor.  The other factor that I think is significant is the advent of texting and all the women willing to send partially naked and naked pictures to men they have never met.
      Texting rather than phone calls is also a problem.  It makes it hard to connect with a person, and many men use it as a way to weed through women.  Between texting and receiving naked pictures, it distracts men for taking the time to get to know the women who won’t.  It’s about instant gratification, instead of taking the time to find out who has character and class, and who doesn’t.
      Worst part is…I want to, and will have more sex with a guy I am in a committed relationship now then I did in my 20s, 30, or 40s (and most women I know did/do at those ages).  But, the only guys who seem to get that are guys in their 20s, 30s, 60s, and 70s…none of which do I find myself attracted to.  I wish guys in an appropriate age range understood that…and stopped only texting and asking for “pictures.”

  25. 25
    Tom10

     
    @ Sabine #15.1
    “If a person took a six month “breather” to get their head straight, is this a bad thing?”
     
    I would say no, it’s not a bad thing. It is probably more harmful than beneficial to date if your head is not straight. Rejection is always a possibility/probability when dating therefore one needs to be in a good place mentally to deal with this.
     
    “Can you tell if some one has not dated in years unless they so?” 
     
    It depends on the person you’re dating. I can often tell as people who haven’t dated in years can have naively unrealistic expectations early in the dating process. One great date and they think they’re on the path to a relationship. More seasoned daters tend to hold back a bit on the enthusiasm and ease in slowly, as they are more wary of being burned.
     
    @ Kiki #17
    “I am turning into my own grandmother, thinking what what advice I need to give to my now 10 year old daughter, about boys. It really is scary :-)”
     
    It’s not really. You just have to tell her to never confuse (sexual) interest from a guy with genuine interest (i.e. just because he’ll sleep with her doesn’t mean he would ever consider committing to her) – no matter how good-looking, charming, educated, funny or harmless he is.
     
    —————–
     
    Before there were any comments I had a suspicion that this discussion might involve:
     
    Men: I can get lots of young chicks; therefore women should stop having unrealistic expectations, should lower their standards and take the next guy who will have her before it’s too late.
     
    Women: We only want our peers; old guys are creepy and delusional therefore men should stop hitting on young women and concentrate on women their own age.
     
    I take all such comments with a grain of salt as their motives are quite transparent. It is in the interest of men to scare women into lowering their standards and “settle” (for guys just like them!), and it is in the interest of women to stigmatize the behavior of men (by calling them creepy) to prevent them following their instinctive attraction to youth and beauty (so that they will date women just like them!).
     
    I agree somewhat with Still-Looking and Fusee that discussing Sexual Market Value isn’t particularly relevant – what’s more important is discussing Sexual Market Value in conjunction with Commitment Market Value – and how these values change over time – as this is the where the crux in dating lies.
     
    It seems obvious to me that women will always have a higher Sexual Market Value than men – no matter her age. Even an average woman can walk into almost any bar, in any city, in any country, on any day of the week and get sex (not that they want to) – do women realize that they can do this? Very few men (if any) can pull this off. However, the flipside is that it doesn’t take a genius to work out that things work a little differently when it comes to Commitment Market Value.
     
    These two different Market Values change differently in time for both genders, and this is what makes the dating game so interesting.

  26. 26
    SparklingEmerald

    EMK said
    “Either way, Locotus is gone. I got sick of having to edit his inflammatory and insulting posts. It’s not that he didn’t have somewhat of a point about the hypocrisy of some of our female readers. To wit: Women would go crazy if a man said that women over 40 were old hags, but men are not supposed to be offended if you say men over 40 hitting on younger women are creepy.”
    ————————–
    I would not jump on a 20 year old guy who said women in their  40′s are old hags.  I don’t expect most men to be attracted to women old enough to be their mothers.  I also don’t think it’s particularly insulting that most women feel creeped out to be hit on by men old enough to be their dads.  I do however find it hypocrtitical when 40 year old men say 40 year women are old hags and will only go after women in their 20′s.  Why do I say this is hypocrisy ?  They refuse to date people their own age and simultaneosly expect 20 something women to find them attractive.
    In my younger days, I actually liked men 10-15 years older,  but I realize now that, that was a bit unusual. Now that I’m older myself, I like to cap it off at 10 years older MAX, but if the guy is in good health and shape, I look at the entire picture.
    I’ve been getting hit on a lot by young men in my online dating profile.  Today I had a 29 year old and two 30 year olds hit on me.  Of course, I look at their profile, and they all have some sort of casual relationship intention. Then I delete their e-mail with no response. (I would do this no matter what their profile says, I just peek out of curiosity)  It creeps me out to have guys young enough to be my son hitting on me.  It also creeps me out that they think because of my age that I must be so desparate for male attention that I’ll answer a booty call from a man young enough to be my son.  YUCK !  Or maybe they think I must have lots of money, so I’ll be their sugar mama.  Too bad for them, ‘cuz I’m not desperate, rich or interested.
     

    1. 26.1
      marymary

      I don’t think anyone calling anyone else an old hag or creepy is acceptable. 
      As for these younger men, I expect they’re hitting on women their own age or younger as well.  They cast a wide net. Do they think you’re desperate or  that there’s less drama with older women? Or think you’ll be like Samantha in SATC? But without going into the psyche of each one you’ll never know.  Just ignore em! There will always be all kinds of men giving us attention until … the attention stops.  So it could be worse! 
      I agree that it’s very weird to hear people slagging off their own age group as too old. 
      I read an article in allure citing a study where most women, if they could, would stop the clock at about age 33.  I agree with that.  I don’t think I would want to look as “bland” as I did in my 20s.  At 33 I in no way looked old.  As we count in base 10, 20, 30, 40 etc has great significance .  It can’t be that in the 365 days between 29 and 30 we all become markedly more aged!  Younger people will look young for longer though.  But I do think after a couple of years with someone you truly love, you just love them regardless of their “market value”. I find that my boyfriend is more attractive to me than he was when we met, but he’s probably the same. 
      “Transforming the world like the eye in love”  Craig Raine
       
       

      1. 26.1.1
        Julia

        That stopping the clock at age 33 thing is great. As I approach 33 (in 4 months :P ) I couldn’t agree more. I am finally at the point where I am happy with myself, everything about me. I also think I look a lot better than I did in my twenties (part of it about weight, though I was the same size in my late twenties. The other part is that I always had a round face and have lost some of my cheek fat with a bit of age, I think I look more elegant now)
         
        About calling men creepy, yes I will call a many creepy for many reasons. I call the men who holler about my body or ask me if I want a ride when I am walking down the street creepy. I also called the men in their mid-fifties to early sixties who used to message me on dating sites creepy. There are lots of creeps out there, this isn’t shocking.

        1. Karmic Equation

          Instead of feeling victimized or threatened by those men’s actions, try to feel sorry for them. They don’t know any better and you can be sure that for many, their love lives suffer because they’re so…unaware.
           
          One time at karaoke, a 50 yo man, heavy set, good voice, bad enunciator (I couldn’t ever tell what he was singing although he was on key) — he was trying to get the attention of this young woman, probably late 20′s. He sent her drinks. Sent over a flower. Generally hovered over her. It was mortifying for me to WATCH him do this. It was just so sad and it my skin crawl with discomfort. The girl was trying to be nice and not reject directly, because he was a nice man. But it was excruciating to see him behave like that. I was sad for him because he debased himself imo.

        2. Julia

          @KE I don’t feel victimized by old dude on the internet, however, I think the way some men approach me on the street is a way of them asserting themselves on me, to make me feel intimidated or to lose my power. I can’t even begin to describe the things men have said and done to me in the past several years. This includes slowly following with their car while I was walking home at night, literally following me home, screaming at me when I ignore them, etc. I am calling a spade a spade, some men really are creeps.

  27. 27
    henriette

    EMK wrote, “It’s not that he didn’t have somewhat of a point about the hypocrisy of some of our female readers. To wit: Women would go crazy if a man said that women over 40 were old hags, but men are not supposed to be offended if you say men over 40 hitting on younger women are creepy.”
    ———————————————————————-
    I have to agree with Sparkling Emerald in this case;  I don’t see any hypocrisy in these women’s responses.  If they were saying it’s creepy when 40-something men hit on 20-something women while chiding young men for finding significantly older women unappealing, I would see a disconnect.  
     
    I’m sorry to see Locutus go since he made some interesting points and often gave me pause for thought, even (especially) when I disagreed with him, but of course I respect EMK’s wishes to run this blog as he sees fit.
     
    As far as women hitting their attractiveness peak at 22, that might well be the case.  However, I agree whole-heartedly with EMK who stated, in another blog post, that he thinks people should really wait ’til their 30s to wed.  Sure, at 22 women might be lithe, smooth-skinned and very fertile; these qualities are sure to bring her heaps of attention.  But being at one’s most sexually alluring does not correlate with being at one’s most prepared for being a good spouse; just look at the divorce rate for people who marry under the age 0f 25!

  28. 28
    judy

    Kiki17 – I told my own daughter that she should only make love when there is love involved.  Can’t say that she always did that, but the advice did sink in eventually.  If a woman allows herself to be cheap sex, she’ll be it.

    1. 28.1
      Kiki

      @July 28,
      Judy, thanks for sharing your opinion, I appreciate it. The problem for me is that this is not how I think about sex in my heart of hearts. I have considered telling her this, because I think normal mothers should say that, but this is actually not my sincere opinion.
      I think sex can be a fantastic experience for a woman even without love, if she feels confident in her own attractiveness, motivations, and has taken care not to get pregnant and catch a STD.  Love would be great, but is not a requirement. Maybe I think like a man/ am like a man, we have had already had several discussions on this blog  on the topic.  I also do not think women bond through sex any more than men do.  I think educating a woman to think along the lines of “cheap sex” versus “sex with love” is insincere.  Now the problem is that she is only 10 years old, and whereas I can have an intellingent discussion on the topic with a grown up woman, I am not sure I can spell it out in a meaningful way to a child.  So I might stick to the “do not do it without love” for simplicity. Not that this has saved any woman any heartache :-).

    2. 28.2
      Karmic Equation

      How would you teach your girl the difference between having sex WITH love assured and having sex hoping FOR love? Even now too many women get them confused. There’s never any guarantees, unless the person you’re having sex with actually SAYS “I love you” before you both engage in sex. In this day and age, is that a possibility for non-Amish people? I think not.

      Teach her to judge a man’s character, not his words. Words are cheap. Actions speak louder. Problem is that most women rather believe what a man says than what a man does.

      Then teach her to have sex only because SHE wants it and for the RIGHT REASONS. Because SHE wants it is a good reason. Because HE wants it is not. Because SHE wants it because sex feels good; not because she needs to use sex in order to feel good about herself (e.g. valued). There’s a difference.

      Sex is a beautiful natural act. Tying sex to love keeps women chaste and “hoping for” love that may never be–or locked into unsatisfying relationships long after they’ve run their course, thus benefitting the patriarchy you’re trying to protect her from. You’re not helping her by telling her to tie sex to love. You’re helping sustain the patriarchy.

      Instead, empower her by teaching her the difference between the right reasons and the wrong reasons to have sex. Wanting sex and having sex does not make sex cheap. The REASONS for having sex determines whether sex is cheap or not. Sex is only cheap if a woman uses sex to get something else, whether that’s love, attention, trinkets, power, status…because then she’s bartering sex for something else and that’s what cheapens sex.

      1. 28.2.1
        Julia

        Exactly Karmic, because she WANTS it. For no other reason.Sex is not a contract, its not a bargaining chip, its an act. Sometimes its done between two people who love each other, sometimes its just done between two people who want to have sex with each other. Stop defining sex as an act of love for women and they will stop being so hurt when their bodies and minds don’t connect.

  29. 29
    Susan Walsh

    Thank you for the link, Evan! I only learned of this post via a new reader at Hooking Up Smart – not sure why I never got a pingback. In any case, you and I are indeed kindred spirits – I’ve admired your work for a long time and share your emphasis on relentlessly filtering out guys without relationship potential early and often.
    Like you, I believe it’s better to be armed with accurate information, and there is a great deal of data on age difference in couples. Only 8% of married couples have an age difference of 8 years or more. Age difference is also linked to lower physical attractiveness – the most attractive women are 2-4 years younger than their spouses. The least attractive are 5 or more years younger.
    For more wonky stats, here’s the link to my post about women and older men:
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/09/27/relationshipstrategies/women-like-older-men/

  30. 30
    CaliforniaGirl

    When my ex-husband and I went through a divorce and I was 35, a lot of people including him said that it will be much harder for me to find someone because I am not that young anymore and it will be much easier for him as he was only 37 ,good looking and making a lot of money . I almost believed them.. A year  later I moved in with my amazing 30 year old boyfriend who thinks I am hotter and smarter than all his 20 something female friends.  Men of all ages approach me all the time and ask out. Oh, and I just met my ex-husband with his very unattractive 28 year old girlfriend, he looked old, tired and sad…

    1. 30.1
      Wes

      All this sexual market stuff sounds like a whole lot of BS.   Nonsense really.  What I’ve learned over the years is that height, even more than being handsome matters the most  to women and it doesn’t always reflect a man’s sexual market value.  Nothing to do with age either unless we’re talking about the effects of aging on women.   Height defines a mans attractiveness  to most, if not all women as long as she maintains her good looks to pick and choose  from these men.  If a man is tall, decent looking  and his height contributes to her overall femininity, his sexual market value is high but really insignificant.  Height trumps all for most women really.  It doesn’t matter if the guy is the second or third coming of the Elephant Man or Quasimodo.  If he’s tall, that’s all that matters.
      I’m 5’5, still facially the same hot guy with a good body at 42 that I had at 21.  The difference now is that I don’t date all that much because there are too many hypocritical women.  I got tired of waiting for the hypocrites with fading looks to grow up and out of their heightist ways.    None of them offered me the love or attention when they were young and prime.  Only now they are interested in me coming with sagging body parts, advanced cellulite and heavy wrinkles.  There are plenty more women like this, slightly older and slightly younger than me who can’t use their fading looks to dictate their dating choices.  Tall hot guys don’t want them anymore yet some of these women are cradle robbing cougars.  A lot of these women come from broken relationships and some have kids attached to them.   I guess this means they have a lower sexual market value so guys like me are good enough LOL!   There are some ladies who have kept their looks and have avoided being punished by Father Time.   The attitude they still convey is one of self-entitlement, “me-first” self aggrandization feeling that her looks give her the right to choose who she wants out of the societal defined “top shelf” guys.  Women who lose their looks are forced to settle on a lesser attractive or lesser desired guy by popular vote, if they want to avoid being alone.  Now it’s my turn to be picky and choosy LOL.  Only thing is, a lot of these women don’t interest me because it’s not like they were interested in me in the first place so why should I be now?

      1. 30.1.1
        SparklingEmerald

        Wes @31 – I think now I understand why I get rejected by shorter guys.  Perhaps they are punishing me for every woman before me who rejected them.  I recently organized a meet up, and I noticed that an attractive man had signed up to go.  I was very pleased when as I was walking around the museum, someone came up behind me and said “Are you Emerald ?”  (Not my real name) I turned around, and there I was looking eye to eye literally, with a guy who was pretty much my exact height.  (I was wearing flats, I’m 5′ 3 1/2″) so he was probably 5″4 at the most.   I thought he was very attractive. Not just in the looks department, but his whole persona.  We talked and laughed a lot throughout the evening, the conversation was fun and easy, I felt like we really connected.  We went to a coffee shop and he wouldn’t let me pay for my coffee, he offered to also buy me a gellato but I declined  , and we sat and had a fun, flirty convo, that ended with him asking for my number and then  . . . Never heard from him again, but he is signed up for another meet up that I am going to.  I really was disappointed, and of course I went over the evening with a fine tooth comb, and really, I could not pin point one thing I did wrong, so I thought, “Oh well, maybe he has a girlfriend, maybe he was just practicing his approach and flirting skills, etc. ” Since he approached me, I didn’t think it was a case of him “being polite”, because it’s not like I went after him, cornered and gave him no way out.
         
          But believe me you are not the first man on this blog to express his desire to see ALL women punished for the rejection you faced.  So maybe, he was just another case of a short guy going for “revenge”.  I wasn’t “settling” for him because I’m some washed up hag (I look nice and fit for my age), I was delighted to meet him and give him my number because he is attractive, smart, artistic and enjoyed talking about rather abstract ideas that men rarely talk to or with me about.  Maybe he made assumptions that when I was younger, I was rejecting short men and emotionally tormenting them with glee. 
         
        Truth be told, I was a late bloomer.  I was the ugly duckling until about mid high school.  Boys that used to taunt me when I was that skinny bow legged girl with braces, were wowed when mother nature worked a little bit of magic, and the braces came off.  Even the bitchy mean girls started being a little nicer to me.  I did date a few guys from my HS, if they personally never taunted me, usually they went to a different Jr High so they didn’t know me during my ugly duckling days.  But I really did want to turn my back on my class and I really wanted to say “F—You” when any of the formerly mean to me girls or guys acted all friendly to me, but I really didn’t want to give them the satisfaction.  In my Sr. Year I went to school a half day and worked the other half. 
         
        I started hanging out with a local band in their mid 20′s.   I hung out with the band and their friends.  They treated ME like I was a rock star, and I lapped it up like the attention starved woman-child that I was.  I brought some of my ugly duck turned cute little duck girlfriends into this group. (I don’t think any of us were “swans” but we all turned out to be pretty cute little ducks.)   We all ended up with boyfriends from the group, my first LTR resulted from this, he was 24.  At first I thought we were “so cool” having “older men”, some of them local rock stars, some of them friends of the band.  Truth is, we were all rejects.  These 20 something rock star wanna be’s, although popular in our town, still had a  marginal “day job” because they sure as heck weren’t making a living with their “gigs”  So women their age were probably rejecting them in favor of guys with “real jobs”, and all of them seemed very eager to pluck up some teeny bopper virgin, who thought they were Greek Gods (I confess we did)  So really, what I thought was so cool at the time (especially since some of the HS girls were jealous of our “catch”) was really two sets of “rejects” filling each others needs (and probably borderline pedophelia)   My LTR was very dysFUNctional (he tried to be a total control freak with me) but it was probably the FUNNEST dysfunctional relationship I ever had.  Truth be told tho’, he was a reject in his own age group, I was just coming out of being a reject in mine, and that’s probably what brought us together. 
        I think (except for the extremely beautiful people, of which I am not) we have all been rejected and we have all rejected someone.  Maybe even rejected some one out of pure spite for what we IMAGINE their sins were in their youth towards whatever group of rejects you were in. 
        I really don’t want to punish anyone for my painful early adolescence.  I don’t take pleasure in seeing people lonely in love because they at some point rejected someone earlier in their life.
        But sometimes I DO wonder who is left for me ?  I’ll NEVER get that top tier group of uber beautiful people (not sure that I want them, they tend to be arrogant) because they think their too SMV is sooooo much higher than mine, and there are so many men in my “league” who are so bitter about their past rejections, that they want to punish all women for it. 
        As much as I am attracted to shorter attractive men, I might have to just give up with them. Not because they are short, but because they are very likely bitter and looking for a woman to take it out on.  I’m lucky now, so far the rejection has never gone further than taking my number and never calling, or one date and no repeat.  Maybe next time a short man who is still enraged over the rejection he has faced in his past will decide he really wants a pound of flesh, and will fake feelings of love for me, just so he can break my heart for revenge against every woman who has hurt him.  I really don’t want to be an emotional scape goat for anyone, at any height.
        I still remember the hurt being the 90 pound dorky girl in Jr. High, but seriously, I don’t want vengeance, I want healing.  Mutual love with a good man, perhaps another “low SMVer” would be very healing.
        But reading the bitter posts from the men who come to this blog, not to learn to understand women, but to give us all a piece of their mind, and basically tell us we deserve our lonliness, (total stranger, you don’t know our story, just pieces of it)  makes me think I should just stop trying.  Maybe EMK’s new slogan s/b “Men look for sex and get revenge, women look for love and get punished ” or “Women come to this blog to understand men;   men come to this blog to tell women that we all suck (and not in the fun way).”

      2. 30.1.2
        hydrabadchik

        What you say is confusing – are you saying that you’ve been choosing from exactly the same dating pool for over 20 years?  The very same women who rejected you in the past are the only women available to you now?
        Seems rather unusual.
         
        I’m also not understanding the comment that “a man’s height is all that matters to women but height doesn’t determine a man’s SMV”   Huh?  If height is what women want in men - then how does it not affect a man’s SMV??

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