How Fast Should Men Go Sexually?

LoveU-Podcast-Episode-17Men look for sex and find love. If we can agree on that, why is it so surprising to some women when men try to kiss (and more) on the first date? In this episode, I’m going to give you the lowdown on what men are really thinking and the definitive sexual pace you should move at if you want to keep your spark and get a boyfriend.


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Comments:

  1. 1
    Wendyshoefitz

    I have been agonizing about this topic for years – so this is extremely helpful.  Thank you!

  2. 2
    toddinhb

    Hi, Evan. Really enjoyed this podcast, and let me second your comments on giving a good BJ. I haven’t had many 🙁 but I definitely remember the good ones fondly. Not a deal-breaker, but a big check in the plus column.

  3. 3
    Katrina

    Ok – great conversation. A bit confusing tho. Evan can clarify- are you saying that a woman should find alternate ways to get a guy off?  (which to me IS sex). Otherwise – there is little gratification in the “bases”. In fact going there with no intention to proceed is often more frustrating than just kissing. What am I missing here?

    1. 3.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      On behalf of all men, good blow job skills will buy you a full month until you figure out if he’s boyfriend-worthy. If you don’t do that, don’t be too surprised that men choose not to stick around for a month to discover how delightful you are. You may choose not to do this – it’s not within your boundaries – and that’s fine. But remember, dating is a Venn Diagram. BOTH parties need to feel content with the progress. And if you think most confident, experienced men will be content with making out for 7 dates or whatever, I predict you’ll struggle to get to date 7.

      1. 3.1.1
        Katrina

        I think 7 dates with no sex  is pushing it, but to me a blowjob is equally as intimate as intercourse and in some ways more. I cannot imagine for two seconds giving every “maybe possible” boyfriend a blowjob! How about he courts her, provides evidence that  his intention is not just getting off – after all – you said yourself – men will have sex with anyone, and have even looser morals around who they accept a bj from! How do you know if a guy even likes you??? Ev – you’ve gone to far with the bj free for all!

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Fine. Do it your way. Stay on second base with a grown-up man for a month. See how well it works. I offered a compromise that I feel most men will be on board with. If you offer a compromise that he is NOT on board with – because it reminds him too much of 8th grade – that’s going to impact things, too. You may want courtship; he wants sexual satisfaction of some sort. He’s not “wrong” for feeling this way. Nor are you “wrong” for rejecting my solution. You will self-select from men who are content with above the waist fondling for a month after spending X hours and dollars on you. That’s a smaller pool than you might think.

        2. Adreana

          Stay on second base with a grown-up man for a month.

          Oh, boy! If I need to give a man a bj the first month or so to keep him then I’d rather stay single…it’s just feels so off and unsafe for me .I’m fairly young so you could say I had mixed experiences with the men my age…some left when I told them I wanted to wait and others stuck around.

          I’m glad you’re blunt about it though, Evan…it just gives me that extra push to find my man while he ( and I) are still young.At the end of the day, impressing other people at my own expense isn’t an option for me .)

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          “Impressing other people at my own expense” isn’t an option for me.” Imagine a man said that about paying for your first few dates. I have a funny feeling he might struggle if he didn’t care what the women he met thought.

        4. Adreana

          Except paying for a date isn’t the same as sharing your body with someone.

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Both are forms of giving and making your partner feel good.

          What do you do to make your date feel attractive and desired?

        6. Adreana

          Sexiness isn’t just about what a woman does in the bedroom but it’s about what she exudes out of it. I have my ways of making a man feel desired and melt when he’s with all while taking things slow 😉 If he cannot wait, then he’s free to go and find that woman who will satisfy him….

          That said, sucking on a guys’ lollipop is more intimate and personal to me than sex, and it’s reserved for a committed relationship with a special man.  It takes a great amount of vulnerability and surrender for a woman, and that takes time and a very trustworthy partner. Heck, even some hookers abstain from giving a bj because it’s far too intimate for them…

          I am curious however, if a woman pays for her own dates… do you still think she should give him head as a reward? And if the man paid for the date and she gives him a bj, should she expect him to return the favor,  or is that unnecessary since he already did his part earlier and it would be “unequal”now? 🙂

           

      2. 3.1.2
        OMG

        There’s another word for women who blow men they’re not interested in to keep them around and shelling out money.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          We’re talkkng about men they are interested in, so your meanspirited metaphor falls short.

      3. 3.1.3
        Thea

        Evan, I’m digging where you’re coming from, though I live in NY and as you probably know NY dating/hooking up scene is very active. I am looking for a serious relationship and am well aware I need to kiss a few frogs before meeting a prince. I wouldn’t mind checking out the level of chemistry I have with a potential partner and giving a blow job to someone I already feel I have established a good connection with, does make some sense. And it’s very hot, by the way. But here’s the catch, assuming my partner is sexually active and we are not yet at a point where it makes sense yet to negotiate exclusivity, than giving this guy a blow job would expose me to pretty much all range of STD’s there are. And as anyone should probably know, some of the STD’s can’t always be seen or active at certain times. How do I navigate these murky and dangerous waters? You make a point out of not making sexual boundaries an elaborate negociation and I agree. Yet, how to I tell someone I barely know and with whom I am supposed to let things flow, that I need him to wear a condom in order to get a BJ and also to be very specific that his semen can not be anywhere near mouth and all sort of other very specific details that are involved in keeping a sexual encounter safe? I would really appreciate your perspective here, because safe sex is a biggie, especially when you’re out there dating and trying to figure out how to keep a good guy interested, yet not at the expense of personal safety and peace of mind.

        P.S. On a funny side note, you make the point a BJ is not sex. Well, that’s what Bill Clinton though too, remember “I did not have sex with that woman”. As we all know, the prosecutor made it clear for all of us in America, a BJ is SEX. By the decision of Court none the less 😉

    2. 3.2
      Amy

      …”after spending X amount of dollars on you.”

      That’s just damn creepy. And why I pay for every other date or split the bill, buy rounds of drinks, what have you.

      If a guy would think he had sexual privilege because he spent money on me or would try to get in my pants that way that would be SUPER rapey. And it’s not on me if he feels that way or tries anything but I can at least assert my power and know that I don’t “owe” a guy anything physically because he threw his cash around (or in NZ, his EFTPOS card LOL).

      Maybe that exchange is more common in the US but where I live in NZ is very egalitarian and guys generally wouldn’t expect to pay for you except maybe the first date, if you got on well. On a first date the other night I bought one out of three rounds because after he paid for the first two I would have felt weird allowing him to buy the third. And I did like him and want to see him again.

      Of course giving a BJ lets you suss out the equipment and if it’s really small you can always just chuck him before you have intercourse and have to pretend you like it (I should have done that with my last BF!)

       

  4. 4
    Rachel

    Another great application of your fundamental premise that healthy relationships start with empathy and a willingness to understand another person’s wants and needs. I am a little confused, though, by this buying time with BJs business. It’s 2016 and we have this contraception thing pretty well figured out, so the idea that a blow job is a precursor to (and also a stall tactic to delay) sex is really strange. Who would blow a guy she wasn’t willing to sleep with? In what way is a woman protecting herself by putting off sex but still giving head? Sorry–I know this is not really the point of this episode, but adding yet another arbitrary step in the sexual hierarchy amounts to implementing more rules and more structure (and more unilateral gratification) to a process that really ought to unfold organically, to the mutual benefit and enjoyment of both parties, with the help of honest communication. If you’re going to get naked and roll around and exchange fluids with the fellow, you might as well just sleep with him and enjoy yourself instead of getting him off so you don’t lose him.

    1. 4.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Most women count their partners and are looking for ways to forestall intercourse without getting too attached. I offered one way. If you can have sex with him without commitment and not care if he ever calls you again, that’s your prerogative. Go on with your bad self.

      1. 4.1.1
        Adenine

        I’m with Rachel on this:  “Who would blow a guy she wasn’t willing to sleep with?” = exactly! In my dating practice, I assume that if I don’t have sexual/romantic feelings after six weeks, it’s time to cut the guy loose and focus on another guy – I’ve heard people say it should be more like two dates (opposite extremes). I also feel like if i’m not sleeping with him, he should be finding sexual gratification elsewhere because at this stage of dating, there has been no exclusivity agreement. Evan, I do things a little differently. I pay for my own dates. I love your whole perspective, generally speaking, but it seems like here you are directly equating the money exchange for sex, but once removed – ie, the tab. That’s kindof like prostitution and objectification, and I have had some bad relationships with men who can’t respect women because of their societal roles in these terms. I feel like women shouldn’t be looking for a “financial provider.”  We should be focused on our own careers, our own identities and our own financial security. When it comes to having babies, both parents are on the hook equally to balance parentage, social life, self-identity and career… I love your podcasts and blogs, though. I am a huge fan. Keep up the good work!!

        1. P is for _

          Adenine: “I pay for my own dates”

          I also pay for my own dates.

          Btw, what about some hand jobs? I feel like that would come before a bj in the whole progression of things. Or am I missing something?

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          Men can do their own hand-jobs better than you can, and thus, they are a rarely preferred method of climax from a date. Sorry to be the guy who speaks the ugly truth for what (many) men think, but if I’m not going to do it in this safe space for women, where else are you gonna hear it?

      2. 4.1.2
        Rachel

        Oh, Evan. So quick to bust out the snark. I’m not commenting to impugn your proposed compromise. I’m just pointing out that the hard line you see between oral sex and intercourse isn’t there for everyone. For many women, blow jobs are extremely intimate–even moreso than regular sex. If I go out on several dates with a guy and we hit it off, cultivate some affection, have sex in a way that we can both enjoy, and he doesn’t call me again, I’m going to be hurt and disappointed. But if I go down on him to make sure he gets his because I feel that it’s the price of admission to the next date and I don’t hear from him again, I’m really going to feel like a ho. Being dumped immediately after one-way sex horrifically amplifies the feeling of being used and discarded, which is probably the reason that so many women bristle at the idea that oral is a low-risk, casual enterprise–a great strategy for keeping him on the hook while keeping your heart safe. No. Just, no. I enjoy your work, I love your writing style, and I agree with >95% of what you say here, but can’t cotton to this thing. I get that going without sex in the first month or two of a burgeoning relationship sucks–and I have been the one waiting for a guy to be ready–but getting through that waiting period makes it that much sweeter when everyone is comfortable and totally on board with getting busy. When you wait until you really want it and then you get it, it’s like whoa.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          As long as you’re content doing things your way – and it’s working well for you – feel free to ignore anything I write.

        2. Diane

          I agree. with Rachel. If I have sex with a guy and he fades at least I’ve been honest with myself and done it for the right reasons. Because I’m attracted to him, because I want to have sex with him. Not because I feel pressured that he’ll think I’m fridgid if I don’t. Not because I think he spent a lot on dinner but because I desire him and I want to enjoy the experience with him. I don’t want to feel that I’ve given him pleasure and then he left it should be a mutual enjoyable experience. yes they are no guarantees, either one can leave at any time. So sex shouldn’t be a bargaining chip and I would feel worse if I gave him a blow job and got nothing in return. If we both had the full experience and it ends, well it was a two way thing and I wasn’t servicing him. I feel he would look down on me that I was putting him on a pedestal and not think I was worthy of having a full experience too. Or on the other hand he might feel that I was just doing it because I didn’t want him to get into my pants which I should imagine from a guys point of view could well be degrading too

      3. 4.1.3
        sophia

        And that is a very viable option for many women.

        Have any others to offer?

      4. 4.1.4
        Diane

        Men look for sex and find love…… Hmm most men have sex with numerous women whilst they are single and they don’t fall in love with them all – just saying

    2. 4.2
      Stacy2

      Who would blow a guy she wasn’t willing to sleep with?

      Agree completely.

      1. 4.2.1
        Not Jerry

        No one who is sane.
        I completely agree. Gee whiz.

        1. Lilyp

          Let’s not even bring up that unless you’re willing to blow him with a condom on, it’s not safe sex. Duh!!

  5. 5
    D_M

    Evan,

    I commend you for trying to tackle a difficult issue like courting intimacy, but it’s very nuanced. You mentioned that for most women, it’s about comfort. Wouldn’t arbitrarily moving their intimacy line inherently make them feel uncomfortable? It seems like that would be counterintuitive to your other points abount intimacy being fun and organic. I believe that a lack of comfort, leads to mediocrity, which I wouldn’t wish on anyone. I have no idea how women make the transition, but I assume it’s some biological organic feeling that allows them to lower their guards. I think on some level, our gut just takes over. Call it  intuition or our respective subconscious, but without that feeling of ease, it just seems like a bad idea to round any bases.

    1. 5.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I repeat: don’t round any bases. Let me know how that goes for you.

      You very much want men to compromise and do things they don’t want: call on the phone, plan in advance, pick up the check, stop wanting to move forward sexually. So how are you going to compromise? How are you going to give? How are you going to demonstrate your interest in him. A: your sparkling personality may not be seen as “giving” enough over the course of 4-6 weeks.

      Rounding the bases is the most effective compromise where he can get some gratification (so can you) and you can buy time to see if he is worthy of boyfriend status. This world where men are content with a month of kissing has a small male population.

      1. 5.1.1
        LilyP

        May I suggest jerking him off instead of a BJ if he can’t just wait? Much less uncomfortable for us women that don’t think putting a dick in our mouth on a first date is no big deal. Which is probably all of us. What do you think about that Evan?

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          No one said first date, LilyP. We talked about delaying intercourse until you have a boyfriend – and doing this by gradually moving around the bases – including having platonic dates to get to know him better outside the bedroom. So no one is advocating first date BJs. I’m advocating taking his progression and gratification into consideration, not just your own personal needs to kiss a guy who will then decide he wants to be your boyfriend after just kissing.

        2. Lilyp

          Evan, you’re failing to acknowledge how often sex and intimacy are intertwined for women — and that includes a BJ for men who didn’t get that memo– and it’s the whole reason we’re waiting in the first place.

          Oh that’s right! And also because those same guys won’t hesitate to slut shame us or get all neurotic about whether our partner count is too high for their liking. Are you telling me men don’t mind a woman with a high BJ count? You’re not thinking how many other men she has done this with after only a week?

          Im with Adreana. If I have to blow a guy to keep him around for a couple of weeks, I’d rather move on.

          please do not mistake this for dislike of blow jobs. Many of us — me included — LOVE giving them in a mutually giving and satisfying relationship.

      2. 5.1.2
        Rebecca

        I’m just piling on here, but

        I totally agree with Rachel that I wouldn’t blow a guy I wasn’t willing to have sex with (since oral sex is sex in my book)

        I totally agree with D_M that arbitrarily moving my intimacy line would make me feel really really uncomfortable

        And, honestly, I’d be worried if I started a sexual relationship with weeks of fellatio it would then be really hard to reset the sexual relationship later to operate as if sex should be good for me, too.

        I’m not saying any man is wrong to want sex before I’m ready to go there with him, I’m just saying I’m not ready. My prudishness hasn’t cost me a date yet, so I’m going to keep on refusing to share my body with any man until I actually _want_ to.

        I don’t think I’m failing to empathize with men’s wishes – I often bristle at the CEO metaphor on these boards because it seems too disinterested in the guy’s needs – but there sure as heck aren’t any CEO’s giving blow jobs as part of their hiring process.

        And my last, pointless, comment: it may not be pheromones, but if bleach smelled as good as my boyfriend’s body, I’d have little bowls of bleach filled with scent sticks all over my house.

      3. 5.1.3
        Evelyn

        I don’t want him to call me or pay or plan in advance if he doesn’t want to.  I want him to ENJOY doing those things willingly, otherwise forget it.  He will resent it. That’s not the kind of man I want-the kind who will expect sex early or feel he’s “earned” it.  I really wish you hadn’t brought up the money thing.  That makes it really seedy, and yes, one step from prostitution.  Oral sex is much more intimate than intercourse, and there is the risk of STD.  Experts always recommend using a condom.  What guy is going to be on board with that?  A man cannot understand what it’s like for a woman to do that.  At least with intercourse, I might get some enjoyment, too.

    2. 5.2
      Adreana

      Are you telling me men don’t mind a woman with a high BJ count?

      I would like to know the answer to this as well. The way I see it, if you blow a guy too soon just to keep him then you’re acting out of a very disempowered, insecure place. Right then and there he knows he has you where he wants, and he’ll start throwing hoops to see how far you’re willing to jump. You’re really not separating yourself from the other women he’s dating or doing anything special ( as you can bet they’re doing the same).

      Look at George Clooney for example. He had hundreds of women throwing themselves at him ( including gorgeous actresses and models) doing whatever they can to lock him down…and who does he fall in love with ? The woman who turned him down 3 times before agreeing to go out with him. No doubt she wasn’t too quick to hop in bed with him either. Now if a former player and a powerful celebrity at that is willing to wait, then why on earth would an average man be any different? lol

      If he lets her go just because she didn’t give him bj the first month, she must not have been his “dream woman” anyway.

       

       

       

      1. 5.2.1
        Stacy2

        You’re really not separating yourself from the other women he’s dating or doing anything special

        This ^^ I think is exactly the point.

        Personally I have no desire to be one of the women who blows this guy. First, it would really make me feel like a ho. Second, I present myself differently. I aim to set myself above the fray and set myself apart from the rest of his harem, as a woman of a higher caliber. He should think of me as a special prize he may get, which is worth pursuing. And getting a BJ from me would be an even more special experience – eventually. If he is hooked and is really into me – he’ll stay. If not – I am ok with him leaving. As they say, men are like trains – there will always be next.

        1. Jenn

          I heartily agree, Stacy2. I have always found that the longer a woman holds out, the crazier a man gets about her. They love the challenge no matter what they might say. So what if there are men who would drop out after the first mile? I’m looking for a guy who’s got his eye on the prize (me) and wants to finish the marathon!

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          That flips over when you say you’re holding out for marriage, Jenn. Most guys can run a sexless mile, but don’t really want a sexless marathon.

        3. Jenn

          Thanks for your input, Evan. As I’ve said before though, I don’t want most men. There can only be one winner in this race, don’t you agree? So why should those of us who hold that sex is more important than just “scratching an itch” compromise on our convictions? I’m asking that as a sincere question, I really want to know your take on it.

          What do you think that people like me should do?

          I know there aren’t a lot of guys who would see things my way. As you’ve said yourself in a post before, the traditional men I’m looking for “may fill a classroom but they won’t fill a stadium”. But why do I need to be concerned about that when it only takes one?

        4. Karmic Equation

          Hi Jenn,

          So are you currently in a committed relationship that is heading toward marriage?

          If you’re not, how long have you been dating the way you’ve been dating with the criteria you’ve been dating with?

          It’s true that you only need one. Let’s say there are 2000 men in the USA who will meet your criteria. How many of that 2000 men live a reasonable distance from you? What if those 2000 men are dispersed throughout the globe. How will you meet “The One”? Travel to every country?

          Yes, you only need one. But finding 1 in 2000, given global distances, is a whole lot different than finding 1 in 2,000,000. It’s pretty good bet that a good selection of 2,000,000 may be within a reasonable distance from where you reside. However, that would not be the case of 1 in 2000.

          It’s a numbers game, for (generic) you to find “The One”, you need a large selection to choose from.

        5. Jenn

          Hi Karmic,

          I understand what you’re saying. But that’s where my faith comes in. 😇😊 I will do the best I can with the tools God has provided me. Online dating, Meetups, the occasional conference or singles event, classes, etc. The rest is up to Him.

          I’ll admit I’m not currently dating anyone. I took myself out of the game, though I shouldn’t have. It’s just been a rough year, which I won’t go into, but I’m trying to psych myself up to start again.

          I haven’t been actively dating, like, ever. Except for about a year or so ago, when I spent maybe about a year and a half on online dating sites. It’s only too easy to not meet anyone when you don’t want to. Like I said, it’s been a rough year and I’m in no shape, physically or otherwise, to look for love actively. But I’m working on getting back out there, as I said.

          I think I went on dates with about 20-30 guys in that year and a half when I was dating. Most of them asked for second and third dates, and one did get to a fourth date with me before I nexted him. Usually, the chemistry just wasn’t there, or I got the feeling they weren’t that into me so I let them drop.

          I told one guy I really liked that I was a virgin. He seemed taken aback but was otherwise okay with it, at least at first. I didn’t get the chance to tell him I’m waiting until marriage because his interest waned after that. There were other mistakes I made with him too though, so I’m not sorry he faded on me. We weren’t right for each other anyway – aside from the chemistry, we had nothing in common and we grasped at straws for things to talk about.

          I do know now that the right time to talk about sex is when the guy brings it up. I blurted it out to this guy because I was gaga for him and I was worried about what he might think. I was insecure but I realize now that I have no real reason to be. There are men out there who wait for marriage willingly. I have read their stories and I know that if God has someone for me, I will meet him eventually. Not my will, but His be done (not that I don’t get antsy while I’m waiting, mind you).

          Like I said, to me sex is far more than just scratching an itch. If any guy I date can’t sacrifice a short time of waiting with me (when we’ll have a lifetime together to share a marital bed), he’s probably not the one I should be with anyway.

      2. 5.2.2
        Evan Marc Katz

        “No doubt she wasn’t too quick to hop in bed with him either.”

        You have literally NO IDEA if this is true.

        1. Adreana

          No I don’t. But it takes a very , and I mean very  confident woman to reject a man with all that status. If she has the “audacity” to do so, then more than likely she isn’t the type to do things she’s not ready for.

          I tell ya…this woman is my spirit animal! 🙂

           

           

           

           

        2. Diane

          So are you wanting us to believe that old adage of Bill Clinton’s that giving BJs isn’t really having sex? LOL

        3. Not Jerry

          Haha. Diane, you had to bring that up!

      3. 5.2.3
        Stacy

        Agreed on all points Adrian.

  6. 6
    Stacy2

    I have always assumed that men enjoy BJs more than regular sex and as a result considered it a “treat” when a guy has been particularly good, not a main course to dish out on a regular basis. I probably wouldn’t go there before regular sex… That is a rather uncomfortable idea.

    1. 6.1
      Lilyp

      I think it’s a “treat” because most men know that most women don’t just give out blow jobs casually. It’s because she really wants to blow you. But Stacy I don’t like the implication that it’s a reward.

    2. 6.2
      Diane

      I consider a BJ  to be a part of the whole sex act. Not a treat to be handed out for good behaviour

      1. 6.2.1
        Lynda

        Good answer. Good approach.

  7. 7
    SMC

    I can’t WAIT to watch this podcast because the comments are already very intriguing.  As for blow jobs, I am a HUGE fan.  First husband was sexually selfish (I never had a single orgasm in the 12 years we were married, and twice-weekly sex was always precluded with “Get a towel.”) and he expected blow jobs, and I hated doing it because he was big and he took forever to “finish,” by which time my jaws felt numb and I was beyond bored and frustrated.  Had a boyfriend post-divorce (17 years older) who showed me the nuances of doing it right (I was still pretty sexually naive). A couple of years later had a different boyfriend (13 years older) who at first had performance issues, so when he asked for one, I said sure, “Do you mind if I swallow?”  I swear I heard him fall in love right then and there.  And that was the moment when I discovered how powerful a blow job can be for a woman who knows how to give one.  I wouldn’t dream of giving one to someone for whom I’m not prepared to have sex, but you bet I’ll give one to someone about whom I’m getting serious.  It’s a bonus for him, and it makes ME feel good to give him that bonus, after which he would conquer the world for me.  Win/win in my book.

    1. 7.1
      ScottH

      You are a wise and pecious woman!

      1. 7.1.1
        ScottH

        precious

        1. SMC

          LOL, ScottH, I’ll take “pecious!”  🙂

  8. 8
    Stacy

    Well, I am of the camp that agrees that actual penetration is different from a BJ because one can probably bond a woman and the other will probably not. HOWEVER, it’s still a form of very, very, intimate sex and personally, if I am ‘blowing’ you, it’s because I am most likely willing to have penetrative sex with you (like now). I mean, who has that kind of sex control? It’s too risky to even go there if you’re not willing to go all the way (although theoretically I can see Evan’s point that it will buy you some time if you have the self control of Jesus himself). However, why would you want to ‘buy time’ if you’re willing to blow the guy?

    Personally, I think the best bet is to progress and make out like crazy (eventually) through enough dates to the point where you are confident (well, we’re neve 100% confident but hey, you gotta take a risk with that also) enough that the man has known enough of you as a person to not just want sex. If a man is genuinely enjoying you as a person, he should be able to last a couple of months without full penetrable sex if you are rounding some bases.  Personally, I feel that if he doesn’t stick around, he wasn’t that into you to begin with.

  9. 9
    C

    Evan,

    I find your blog very insightful, however I couldn’t disagree more with your opinion on this subject matter. So much that I felt compelled to leave a post for the fist time. Maybe it’s my Midwestern values (not religion based as I am an atheist) that contrast with your experience in LA, however I tend to think it’s just a basic level of self-respect.  In my experience you do not have to perform oral sex within the FIRST month (if sex is absence) for any man worthwhile.  Further it’s my experience that men respect women more who take things slower (to an extent). Those are the women they take home to meet their mothers. Oral sex is just as intimate if not more. Ditto Katrina, Andreana, Rachel, Adenine, Stacy, Stacy2, and D_M thoughts.

     

    -C

     

    1. 9.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Again, you are all entitled to your thoughts and feelings. My job is not to tell you what you feel, but rather educate you about what men (overall) think about sex. And if things aren’t progressing at a certain pace, men tend to be dissatisfied. My solution, rounding the bases, which I’ve talked about for years and mention in Why He Disappeared and Love U) has worked wonders for the women who choose to employ it. I don’t have a 3 date rule, a 5 date rule, a 1 month rule for having sex. I tell women the truth – men want sex before love – it’s in your best interest to give him some sort of sample of what’s to follow to keep him engaged.

      I can’t tell you how many women have told themselves this story: “I told him I only kiss and then I never heard from him again. That must mean he’s a bad guy who is just out to get laid.”

      Not true. He’s just a guy – like most of us – who are driven by testosterone and don’t need to have feelings to hook up. We will figure out later if we like you. First, we want to have sex. It’s YOUR job to a) slow him down and see if he’s a genuine guy who is worthy of your commitment and b) make it FUN for him to slow down instead of lecturing him about what an ogre he is for reaching for your belt buckle. My solution is something that can (theoretically) and has (in practice) please both women and men because it takes BOTH of their needs into account. She’s not having intercourse with a total stranger and hoping he calls. And he doesn’t feel like he’s 14 again where all of his action revolves around kissing on a couch.

      Your proposed solution is essentially all about what YOU want – disregarding the fact that men have needs and desires as well. And if you’ve learned anything here, failure to account for your man’s equally valid feelings is a recipe for friction and eventual breakups. Keep setting your rules in your head; watch as most guys who don’t play by that rulebook find somewhere else to go.

      And no, the exceptions don’t disprove the rule. I have a born-again client who has a boyfriend who also thinks that kissing for a year is cool. Let’s just say that they’re in the minority. Stop making men wrong for wanting to go fast. You want him to respect you and slow down. He wants you to care about his needs and speed up. Find a point on the graph where you BOTH feel good, not just YOU.

      1. 9.1.1
        Sabrina

        Evan I agree with you in this one completely.  In fact, I agree with you on all your advice.

  10. 10
    John

    If you thought men and women are the same sexually, the comments on this thread may change your mind.

    If your principle is no sex before exclusivity, then BJs are out. A BJ is sex. A man is putting his member in the women’s mouth, which to me is sex. Maybe Bill Clinton’s affair with Monica changed people’s minds into thinking a BJ isn’t sex. I would guess a woman would have to trust you and be comfortable to let you penetrate her in any way. I’m a guy and suffering from blue balls is painful. With that said, if I meet a quality woman and she isn’t ready, I’ve got to take care of myself. I agree with Evan though that many guys won’t hang around. Easy sex is available everywhere. I disagree though that smart, successful guys won’t give you some time to build trust. I’m one of those guys and if a woman said she is not ready yet, I respect that.

    1. 10.1
      Stacy2

      Easy sex is available everywhere

      Correct, which is another reason to not be a provider of said “easy sex”. In my experience, a guy may have a rotation of women who he calls/texts when he wants to get laid, but he will pursue the one that does not put out over those other women when he is really interested. So its not like he is not having sex at all for a month. Nobody expects “exclusive dating”, i don’t think.

      1. 10.1.1
        Adreana

        This is spot on!

        More than likely, he’s dating and sleeping with other women in the dating phase.

      2. 10.1.2
        Cara

        I agree with you Stacy2. If a guy won’t hang around for my “sparkling personality” then why on earth would I give him a BJ? In my experience, which at 47 is a good bit, it’s the guys that you don’t have to put out for that are worth keeping.

        If he wants easy, I’m soooo not it! To show him otherwise in the first month would be false advertising.

        1. theta

          I am also 47 and do concur.. Std’s are highest amongst our age group; in no way am I getting physical until trust and relationship potential are established.  Any pressure = bye bye!!

      3. 10.1.3
        Evelyn

        And she can do the same, to have her needs met.  The easy sex available everywhere is probably true. We have now taught men they should get it fast and easy, and now we can’t go back.

  11. 11
    Morris

    Although I understand women may lose out on some guys if they don’t ‘satisfy’ them. I don’t agree that one needs to put out so early in a relationship. I can’t recall a single woman, that I was smitten with, that I would have dumped just because she didn’t put out in a timely matter.

     

    Are the men that are going to leave really worth pursuing?(I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer to that.) Women are putting out more today than ever. And relationships are as fickle as ever. I’d almost argue women should be going the opposite direction.

     

    Also, I’d think it would just make it harder to filter out the ones that are just looking for a good time. And the potential for STD from all those bj’s! My goodness. Are people not up on how crazy scary HPV is?(Vaccine does not cure all forms of HPV and they are still finding new ones. And sorry fellas. No cure for you!)

    1. 11.1
      Morris

      And I’m saying all those bj’s while thinking of my friends. My female friends don’t seem to have a hard time finding men to date. They seem to find a hard time finding men to stick around.

       

      Maybe I’m old fashioned. But if they are ‘satisfying’ all those men that get to date 3-4. I’m going to have to rethink family-style dining when we’re all out together.

      1. 11.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Morris,

        You’re a man so I will ask you: Is 4 weeks really that long to wait for sex? In a month’s time, the couple has gone out, what, maybe 4 times? If the idea is to not have sex until exclusivity, can all that be arranged (that you really like each other, that you’re ditching the other people you may have been dating, that you are “on board” with starting a relationship) in only a month?

        1. Morris

          @Emily, the original – No. A month isn’t a big deal if I was genuinely interested in the person AND that person wasn’t casually dating other guys while ‘satisfying’ them. If it was casual. I’d say I probably wouldn’t wait that long though.

           

          That’s also why I don’t think there is a right answer. Sometimes casual turns into serious. A person might miss out on the casual daters if they insist on wait a month. Or however long.

          On the other hand. I think it’s a great way to weed out the men that aren’t really in it for the long haul.

          I think the best thing is wait until you’re comfortable. Period. If it takes a person longer so what. You might miss out on some casual turn serious relationships. On the other hand you’ll weed out some players.

           

        2. Morris

          On your second point. Yes. I don’t see why you couldn’t be in a exclusive ‘sexual’ relationship around the one month point. Personally I don’t like having multiple sexual partners. It feel unnatural and it’s most definitely unsafe.

           

          But I also would have gone out a bit more than 4 times. And after date 3-4(usually around week 2 for me) you should really be getting to know the person better. Talking daily even. By the time week 4 comes along. I don’t see why a person wouldn’t know if there is potential for a relationship.

           

          There are plenty of men that aren’t so short-sighted and can wait a little for something meaningful.

        3. Emily, the original

          Morris,

          It can be difficult for a woman to wait a month if the chemistry is at a level 10. But I thought the advice on this site was to look for a level 6 or 7 chemistry and then determine the level of compatibility. Determining that takes time.

        4. Emily, the original

          Hi Morris,

          Appreciate your responses.

          “Personally I don’t like having multiple sexual partners. It feel unnatural and it’s most definitely unsafe.”

          I agree. It’s not my thing, either, but when you are first dating someone, you can’t assume anything and demanding to know who else they are spending time with can come off as pushy.

          “But I also would have gone out a bit more than 4 times. And after date 3-4(usually around week 2 for me) you should really be getting to know the person better. Talking daily even.”

          You are talking daily after two weeks of dating? And after four weeks you are ready to say that you are in a relationship and exclusive? It’s not an indictment; just a genuine question. Do men move that quickly? (I ask because all you ever hear about is how men don’t want to commit.)

        5. Morris

          @Emily, the original – Maybe I’m different. I have a clean bill of health. Get checked at least yearly. And I don’t think I’d even sleep with someone who hasn’t had a checkup since their last sexual encounter. I’ve know too many people with STD’s and I don’t care to go down that road.

           

          So before I get intimate with someone. It can be 2 weeks in. 4 weeks. 6 weeks. It all depends.(Longest was 3 months just to give you context.) But before that happens I definitely let them know I only do exclusive sexual partners. And they better have a clean bill of health. It’s only been an issue once in my dating life.

           

          To your second question. Every relationship has been different. Some I’ve hit it off right away and it was exclusive barely 2 weeks in. One took 3 months before we had sex. I don’t mind going fast or slow. I just do what feels right with that person.

           

          But if I find someone that I’m really interested in. I’m not going to wait x weeks just because. I have to assume she’s on week 4 with some other guy. I’m going to have to step it up.

        6. Not Jerry

          I’m with Morris.

          If I am seeing someone new and I see her more than twice, she ought to be open with starting a relationship with me, one that’s exclusive.

          I will be exclusive pretty quickly, if she’s not I’ll say goodbye.

          I’m a one woman man, and if I cannot rule her in (or out) pretty quickly I will not take the time.  Three months while we date others?  That would never happen, not with me. If she’s seeing others I will just let her go on and see them, but not me.

          That said, I do know women who are dating several men at the same time, and I sometimes criticize them on it.  They have no idea what they want their future to look like.  What they want to see every day.

          They haven’t done the necessary self-examination. To set their goals, figure out what the end game is.  They have no goal.

          Some are just dating to have fun, and that’s fine but I don’t do that.

          If there’s no chance this person is whom I want to see every day I won’t see her again. Because I do have a goal in mind.

          Admittedly I am a lot older than most of you. That might come into it.

        7. Not Jerry

          BTW, none of what I said has much to do with sex.

        8. Tom10

          @ Not Jerry
          “That said, I do know women who are dating several men at the same time, and I sometimes criticize them on it
           
          That’s not cool dude; who are you to criticize them? How would you like it if others criticized you?
           
          How about you date in a way that suits you, and leave the women you know date in a way that suits them? Live and let live and all that…

        9. Not Jerry

          Tom10,

          This is blogging, right?

          The woman I said that to is one I talk to as friends about relationships often. She is always complaining to me about the men she meets that she doesn’t want to see again, or they clearly do not want to see her again.  I said she ought to try to rule them out before she meets them.  She said the other day talking to me has helped her to visualize what she is trying to achieve.

          So discussing her approach to dating is exactly what she calls me for. I am also in a singles group where men and women my age are often discussing such things. That is my opinion, so in the context it’s completely cool.  Just like here on the blog.

          If you are not having success in dating, you tell what you know, ask what you don’t.  Like on any blog.  Others will tell you what they think which you are free to ignore. But if you didn’t want to hear others’ views, why would you ask? Why would you come here at all?  There’s be no point.

        10. Emily, the original

          Morris and Not Jerry,

          Morris: “But if I find someone that I’m really interested in. I’m not going to wait x weeks just because.”

          Not Jerry: “If I am seeing someone new and I see her more than twice, she ought to be open with starting a relationship with me, one that’s exclusive.”

          I agree that there’s no set amount of time it takes to make it to exclusivity, and, like both of you, I’m not particularly interested in dating more than one person at a time. It takes too much energy, and I have never found 2 people I really liked at the same time who were what I call the 3 A’s: Available, Appealing and Actionable.

          Not Jerry: I agree with the idea that after date 2 things can pick up. I wouldn’t be amenable to going on a 3rd date with someone I didn’t really like. However, there are people (men and women) who will date someone up to 3 times to see if there is chemistry and compatibility. For some people, 3 dates is the trial period.

          With all that being said, I think you have to be careful how quickly you make your interest in the person and in an exclusive relationship known. Someone coming at me with like a freight train kills my interest. I don’t want to be handed the whole kit and caboodle in a matter of a couple of weeks.

           

        11. Evan Marc Katz

          “Not Jerry: “If I am seeing someone new and I see her more than twice, she ought to be open with starting a relationship with me, one that’s exclusive.”

          Yeah, that’s another made up rule that’s not going to work well. NotJerry is going to scare the shit out of a healthy woman who has plenty of dating options and doesn’t want to be forced to call someone a boyfriend after TWO dates. Sorry, NotJerry, you’re no different than the women who insist that everyone see things their way or else.

        12. Not Jerry

          If she’s got too many options she’s probably to busy for me.
          But as I said, I am older.

          Not like the 20 somethings who are maybe dating around more than I would.

          There has to be mutual interest in moving forward. If I don’t sense any from her I may just see if she pursues me at all. If not, no loss.

        13. Caroline

          Hi Not Jerry-I respect you wanting to be a “one woman man” but.. At least when I was dating online; it was feast or famine. I either had a bunch of guys interested or one I was definitely not interested in. Now don’t get me wrong-I’m not talking about sex. It was pretty common to have 3-5 guys interested at one time. It usually dwindled quickly from 1-3 dates. Only a couple of times was I dating two guys at once where I had gone beyond 3 dates with both. And funny, it probably was because I was on the fence with both of them . It dudnt work put with either.Seems like I knew pretty quickly if it was a guy I wanted to get to know. Honestly, if someone knew he wanted to be exclusive after 2 dates; it would scare me off. I’ve had my share of guys who wanted to get serious too fast and it was a turnoff. The men I have gotten serious with; it has happened very organically and it felt right. I guess everyone is different:)

      2. 11.1.2
        Tom10

         
        Fair enough Not Jerry; if she came and asked your opinion on what she’s doing wrong then it’s okay to proffer your opinion.
         
         
         
        However, even in this circumstance, I would shy away from the word “criticize” as I find it unhelpful. “Suggest” would be unhelpful.
         
         
         
        Maybe it’s just me but I find it almost impossible to actually help others with their dating lives; despite decrying to seek the help and advice of others I’ve found the vast majority of people are simply looking for a sounding board in which to vent their grievances, rather than actually make real changes based on the opinions of others.
         
         
         
        Therefore, with personal friends and acquaintances I usually just empathize, smile and nod, even if this isn’t very productive. It just gives them the shoulder to cry on that they were actually looking for.
         

        1. Tom10

          *”Suggest” would be more helpful.

        2. Not Jerry

          I have people ask my opinion all the time on dating and other life issues.  I guess because they know I will tell them the truth.  Not that I have all the answers. I don’t.

          I had a friend who called me up asking me about what she should do after she walked out on a man and went home after about 10 dates.  Because he had lied about his age.  She drove home, about 40 miles.

          I just said “If he’s a good guy, and he must have been if you saw him that many times, you have to decide whether that disqualifies him or not.”  She was dissatisfied with that answer.   But she went out with him 10x and had no vision for where that relationship was reasonably going.  A principle she and I have discussed many times.

          I think a vision for whether the person you are seeing is a potential keeper better be coming into focus by the third or fourth time you see them.

          If it’s not, time for self-examination.

    2. 11.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Morris,

      I never understood the attitude that oral sex was closer to French kissing than to intercourse on the escalating sexual activity scale even before a good friend of mine came down with HPV induced oral-pharyngeal cancer a few years back.  She had been widowed after being married for 20+ years to her college sweetheart.  They were each other’s firsts and were faithful to each other.  The first guy my friend had sex with a few years after her hubby died was a widower, who it turns out, had been wildly unfaithful during his marriage.  A year after they became a couple, my friend noticed an enlarged lymph node on the side of her neck and ten days later she underwent surgery and then had a six month course of radiation.  She survived but she has a huge scar from the base of her ear to her collarbone, and persistent issues with swallowing and a dry mouth.

      The problem with the mindset that engaging in oral sex is a no-biggie activity, is that it doesn’t take into account that STDs can be spread this way that can seriously impact pne’s health.  And in practice, people who will automatically practice safe with intercourse by using a condom never use a condom or dental dam when engaging in oral sex.

      Your take on the “risks” of family style dining made me laugh.  But, yes, one of the first thoughts that came to mind at the thought of adopting the tie-him-over-with-blowjobs strategy is that a woman is having NSA, one-sided oral sex, to try and achieve committed intercourse sex.  So during the NSA blow job phase, she is is sucking on a dick that may have been in any number of other mouths, vaginas, or rectums because it IS no-strings-attached sex.

      FYI, get your young sons vaccinated against HPV as well as your girls.  Men are more susceptible to HPV induced oral-pharyngeal cancer than wome are!

      1. 11.2.1
        Morris

        I’ve never understood it either. I think people need to be better educated. What we know about STD’s have changed a lot in the last decade or so. Especially in regards to HPV. Some of these might not even impact you until decades later. NSA bj’s at your own risk ladies.

        1. Lilyp

          I couldn’t agree more Morris.

        2. Shaukat

          Morris, the only way you can contract a serious STD from a BJ is if she has cuts or secretions in her gums. You can’t transfer HPV or HIV or most other STD’s through saliva. So if that’s what you’re worried about, then a BJ is similar to French kissing because the latter also only puts you at risk if both parties have cuts on their gums.

          Now, if you’re a woman performing oral sex and you swallow, that’s a different story.

        3. SMC

          Now, if you’re a woman performing oral sex and you swallow, that’s a different story.

          Shaukat, not sure if you were referring to my post above, but yes, if you swallow, it IS a different story. Like Morris, I have and insist on clean bills of health.  ON PAPER.  I don’t date multiple people at once, it’s exhausting and I can really on focus on one at a time.  But he gets my FULL focus.   I did an experiment once where I went out with three different guys in one week.  My best friend had men falling all over her and she routinely “circular dated,” but I did it just that once and I quite frankly didn’t care for it.  All were nice guys though none tripped my trigger, and I just didn’t feel as if I could really be myself while conducting the same small talk three separate times in a 5-day span.  It’s one-at-a-time for this gal.  It DID prove to me, though, that I couldn’t go on a second date with someone who had zero appeal to me after a first date.  The happy ending here is that we continued to be good dance partners, there were no hard feelings.  (I do love a happy ending.)

        4. Shaukat

          Morris, that site you link to doesn’t actually refute what I said; there is a risk, but not from saliva mixing with semen. This is from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC):

          Some studies suggest that oral HPV may be passed on during oral sex (from mouth-to-genital or mouth-to-anus contact) or open-mouthed (“French”) kissing, others have not. The likelihood of getting HPV from kissing or having oral sex with someone who has HPV is not known.

          http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/stdfact-hpvandoropharyngealcancer.htm

        5. JB

          There is no male test for HPV so a man would never know if he even has it and it’s dormant. The goofy Dr. Oz show told people they could get oral HPV from sharing a cup of water. Thus scaring everyone in his entire audience. If you don’t believe me Google it.

        6. Morris

          @Shaukat – How did you read that and come away with FK being basically the same as oral sex?

           

          It said more research needs to be done. We do know it’s transmitted sexually. And eventually one can get it in the mouth as well.(If one partner has it. Eventually both partners will have it.) I’m pretty sure there isn’t a lot of ways your mouth gets in contact with a vagina or anus except by oral sex.

           

          FYI, your link only talks about HPV. Interesting enough also on CDC site http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/common/ai/ai.pdf (You cannot get it(HPV) by: Kissing on the mouth, hugging, or holding hands.) Again, apparently more research need to be done. And again, we do know oral HPV exists so how does it get there???

           

          And if you read the first article in my original post. How exactly did you miss this “The proportion of newly-diagnosed college students with genital herpes infections attributed to HSV-1 increased from 31% in 1993 to 78% in 2001. Although HSV-1 infections were seen in both males and females, they were more common in females. Age was also a factor, with more HSV-1 infections occurring in persons 16-21 years old than in persons 22 or older.” Oral to Genital herpes increasing from 31% to 78%. That’s not FK. And we all know how common oral sex has become. Doesn’t take much to realize what’s contributing to this.

           

          And all the other STDs that can be transmitted orally. You do realize there is such a thing as pre-cum right? http://plannedparenthood.tumblr.com/post/79983614349/does-pre-cum-spread-stds

           

          I can go on but I think I’ve made my point.

        7. Shaukat

          Morris, note that the CDC states that more research needs to be done on both oral sex and French kissing in order to determine whether the risk of contracting HPV from each activity. You can obviously contact it through sexual activity, but the risk of contracting it from oral sex is currently thought to be extremely low. And my point, which still stands, is that it is transferred from one partner to another through blood, not saliva. This is the consensus within the medical and scientific community. And if an individual has cuts or sores in their gums, then it can be transferred through FK as well. Also, according to the San Francisco AIDS Foundation, the risk of contracting HIV from oral sex is extremely low even when the woman swallows, because enzymes in the stomach kill the virus.

          It is true that other stds, such as syphilis and chlamydia, can be contracted through oral sex, but again, there is also the risk of transmitting such diseases through deep kissing because of sores in the mouth.

        8. JB

          but the risk of contracting it from oral sex is currently thought to be extremely low.”

          It probably is low but that didn’t stop Michael Douglas & Bruce Dickinson from getting cancer from oral HPV from going down on women. Although I’m sure both have been with MANY women but all it takes is 1 …. the wrong 1.

        9. Nicole

          Morris, I don’t really want to mince words here but you should be aware that HPV is NOT an STD, it is an STI and that is a different beast.  Also, please be aware that 70% of actively dating folks in the US will have HPV at one point or another and the majority will never know it because most people who contract it will experience no symptoms and it will clear their system in about two years.  Lyme disease is actually also an STI and is potentially much more dangerous than a high-risk strain of HPV (defined as a strain that could possibly cause cervical cancer but does not present with warts).  Anyway, it’s not to say that I disagree with you, but HPV is highly contagious and since there’s no test for men, trying to avoid it is like trying to avoid aging if you plan on dating at all.

          I still agree with your point that with oral sex, you run a lot more risks for these sorts of issues than with protected intercourse, so yes, for me I hold off on it until I’m ready for sex.  Doesn’t mean you can’t have some fun using your hands until then, and then you can avoid most of those pesky STD’s!

      2. 11.2.2
        Adrian

        Morris,  GoWithTheFlow,  and SMC

         

        So how do each of you go about asking a new partner about being screened for STD’s before you have sex with them?

         

        I always organically brought up the topic with women weeks before I felt it was time to have sex and they have always agreed it’s a good thing to practice. But, once I actually said that I would like “both” of us to get tested and share our results before we had sex, from the look they usually give me, you would think I just accused them of having AIDS or having dirty genitals.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          The last two boyfriends it was pretty easy.  I had exited a relationship, then may yearly gym visit was scheduled.  My OB/gyn is a friend, so we were catch up chatting and she said are you still seeing X?  When I told her I wasn’t, she said well let’s get you tested today so you’ll be ready to go for the next one 😉

          So I had my test results when I met one guy at a party.  We started a long distance relationship so that put the brakes on sex for a little while, enough for me to mention that I had been tested.  He said, that’s a good idea, I’ll call my doctor’s office tomorrow to see what I need to do.

          About 7-8 months later be broke up.  A little bit later I was in again for my annual well woman exam, and got tested again.  A few months later I met my next boyfriend.  His marriage had ended because his wife had cheated on him, so he had been tested and I was his first relationship post divorce.

          If it’s something you do as a routine part of care after you exit a relationship, you’re ready to go and it’s easy to say, so I’ve been tested. . . and then it’s easy to go from there.  If you get resistance to the idea, walk away!

        2. Adrian

          GoWithTheFlow,

          Thanks. I will take your advice and try to be more nonchalant about the subject as you mentioned and wait to see if the women volunteer the exchange or results.

           

          I will never forget a story that I heard about a guy dating a women whom had STDs (I believe she got it from a ex partner who didn’t tell her). She told the guy she had a STD but was taking medication, so it was under control.

           

          The guy still wanted to date her even after he found out… long story shortened, he some how caught it from her and I just remember her words still echoing in my ears… “I feel guilty that he caught it from me but he knew the risk when he decided to continue dating me.”

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          My brother’s ex nut job, that I mentioned in another post had herpes and told my brother it was safe to have sex without a condom because she was on valtrex and she was only contagious if she had an obvious outbreak.  My brother never contracted the disease during the years he was with her, but he really freaked out when it came out in the news that a few infected people will still shed virus in their body fluid even when they are on antiviral therapy and don’t have an active outbreak.

          As for me, I fell into a way that works for me.  Get tested as part of my regular medical care, and then let my prospective partner know that I have clean results because I get yearly tests (I get exposed to blood and body fluids at work so my insurance covers some of the tests no questions asked).  People are afraid of offending when they ask about std status, so it removes that element somewhat.

        4. Morris

          @Adrian – I’m pretty open about it. Sex usually comes up in conversation before actually having it. I’ll just be very upfront about it. I’ll tell them my health is very important to me and that I only practice monogamous sex. And that we should both be tested before entering into such relationship. Hasn’t been a problem.

        5. SMC

          Adrian,

          I agree it’s somewhat awkward, but any reasonable person in this day and age should respect one’s wish for proof of good health.  The only person who insisted on it from me was the gentleman in my story above (who eventually married me), and I actually felt relieved that he asked for it because I didn’t know how to go about finding out if he was safe or not.  (I was in my early 30’s and very sexually naive at the time.)  He asked me just the way you ask your relationships – said we would both be tested and share our results.  I took no offense, and our relationship was wonderful.  If someone looks at you aghast, then…maybe she’s got something to hide.  Or maybe she doesn’t.  But NOBODY should be offended if asked to provide a clean bill of health.  It’s just stupid to NOT do so these days. My current relationship didn’t ask me because I’d been married for four years and hadn’t had sex in 3.5 of them.  He trusted me, but if he’d asked for a “doctor’s note,” I would have provided it with no fuss or bother.

  12. 12
    Malika

    Sex is fun! I don’t really see it as something to negotiate on, isn’t it just something that happens organically? You either want to have sex with him or you don’t. If you don’t, then that is more than fine. You can focus on meeting men you do want to have sex with. You don’t owe a man anything, it is also about your own sexual pleasure.

    I think it’s really good advice to go round the bases in the first (or first couple of) months. Having said that, I pretty much know within the first two dates (sometimes within the first two minutes!) whether i want to be sexually active with someone or not. The only reason I hold back is because i don’t want to seem like too easy a catch. I don’t want a man I date to bail because I took the mistery and excitement away from dating. I also want to figure out first what I exactly want from the specific man I am dating. Would I be fine if he never called me after we had gone to bed? Or should I wait a little while longer to see if he is as interested in me as I am in him? Every situation is different.

    This is from a very picky person. I have been on quite a few dates this year and felt sexually attracted to only one out of ten men. But I have had my share of adventures and I have calmed down a bit. I prefer quality over quantity in this period of my life.

    1. 12.1
      toddinhb

      I’m with you, Malika. I hope to find a mate who – like me – thinks sex is just plain fun. Why attach so much emotional baggage to it? There are very few sexual experiences that I can actually remember. I enjoy it, and want my partner to, as well.

  13. 13
    Callie

    Evan, I think there’s some confusion here and maybe it’s a question of definitions: do you not label oral sex as sex? Do you see it as a step up from petting possibly? As sort of an extension of casual making out?

    I ask because it would explain so much to me if that was the case. Because then it falls much more in line with your theories. Otherwise it doesn’t at all because you always say to women to wait before having sex. And for many, MANY, oral sex is precisely that, sex. For many who don’t even have penetrative sex, it is the only sex. It is as intimate as you can go, and for many many more is even more intimate than penetrative sex. Not just people who are slow to have sex, for people who will readily have a one night stand even. I’m pretty quick myself to get physical, and oral sex is pretty much the last thing that happens, not the first. Mouth on genitals is extremely intimate, and while it doesn’t result in pregnancy, it can result in the same spreading of STDs as penetrative. There is also a lot of baggage that comes specifically with the classic blow job. Teenage boys racking up points of how many girls they can get to blow them, men forcing women by holding their heads and not letting them breathe, not to mention an entire extremely popular form of porn where the man causes the woman to vomit through deep throating her. Then there’s the fact that there are many men happy to receive but not so happy to give. So a woman approaching giving someone a blow job must have a huge deal of trust in the man she is giving it to. A blow job isn’t just a casual experience for her, even if it might be for the man. Because, as you constantly point out, men and women are different and have different life experiences.

    I’m not sure this will change your mind on suggesting a woman just give a guy a blow job to keep him interested, but I do hope it’ll give you a sense of another perspective. One that isn’t “I don’t want to because I’m a prude” or “I take things slow” or ” I want him to just spoil me I don’t want to return in kind.”

  14. 14
    Adreana

    I’m going to have to rethink family-style dining when we’re all out together.

    LOL!

  15. 15
    John

    I tend to want to wait a bit for sex if I am dating a woman I really like. Sex tends to blind me to red flags. If the sex is good, I can find myself excusing all kinds of bad behavior. Instead of thinking my logic will trump the emotion of sex, I don’t put myself in that position.

  16. 16
    toddinhb

    This has been a perfect microcosm of the perils and misconceptions in dating. I have seen many of the viewpoints here in previous  relationships, and from losing my virginity in my 20s to a year working at Club Med to a near-marriage, occasional flings, and now in my 50s and on the dating marketplace, I understand that we are all products of our upbringing, insecurity, faith, self-image, inhibitions and core values.

    I have shed many of my inhibitions and hang-ups, but I also don’t hold them against anyone else. I say, live and let live, but I do know that I want to find someone who shares my passion for love, pleasure and wisdom.

    Ultimately, I just wish people were better at communicating what they like, dislike and tolerate. The misunderstandings and expectations of relationships can sabotage them, and our nature is to talk around them – or not at all – and remain mired in unhappiness and frustration.

    Then again, I could be completely wrong…

  17. 18
    30-Something Guy in NYC

    I get where Evan is coming from, but it doesn’t really work that way in my experience. Once you’re back at someone’s apartment, it’s pretty much on. Stopping at second or third base would be pretty weird at that point and would take an otherworldly level of self control. I don’t even drink and I would find that incredibly difficult. Personally, I’d be willing to wait until the second date to kiss and around date four to invite a girl back to my place (for sex). At date four, I think most people know whether they want to have sex or not. You’ll never know if the guy is there for the long term or not. There are no guarantees no matter how long you wait.

    And can we please stop counting partners. It’s 2016 and that is just ridiculous. I would never ask someone I’m dating how many people she’s been with and any guy who would ask that sounds inexperienced or insecure to me. Secure guys like girls that like sex. Girls that like sex, have sex. End of story.

    1. 18.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Once you’re back at someone’s apartment, it’s pretty much on. Stopping at second or third base would be pretty weird at that point and would take an otherworldly level of self control.”

      Then I must be otherworldly (as are most of my clients). Thanks for the compliment!

      1. 18.1.1
        Jenn

        Haha Evan, if you’re otherworldly then there must be another universe entirely for myself and my fellow WTMs!

  18. 19
    Nissa

    I have to admit that I was surprised at the idea that women still worry about their ‘number’. Doesn’t anything below 20 partners after the age of 35 count as low numbers? I don’t know any women who have specific rules for ‘do this on date one’ etc. I tend to not be physical, but it’s not because of a dogmatic rule, it’s just self knowledge of where I’m comfortable. Of course I could have a good time with just about anyone, I don’t have any doubts about that. I do have doubts about long term compatibility, so knowing if I can have fun and enjoy the man in question in a non physical way is what I’m exploring. When I like a man I do want to give my genuine self, something I value far more than sex. And once he knows me, and likes me enough to be exclusive, then I would consider including the physical.

    It’s a fair enough point to say that the woman should consider what a man wants. I just think men can get the lesser value of sex from many sources, whereas someone who the man considers long term material is something else. I have met many men that, while they enjoy sex, also deeply crave substance – unconditional love, acceptance of who they are instead of someone who wants to change them, appreciation for what they want to offer in a relationship, respect for their integrity and consistency. From the women I’ve seen, that’s a lot harder to find than someone who will have sex with you.

  19. 20
    S.

    I wrote a response.  Then I did something odd. I listened to the entire podcast. 🙂 Then I wrote this.

    Interesting stories.  I particularly recall the story guy who put his arm around a woman on the 2nd date and didn’t know that was too soon so he never tried again.  And then she was growing frustrated.  Don’t men know when it’s too soon and when it’s not? Don’t they establish some sort of rapport with a woman and try and get a sense what she’s feeling on every date? Maybe while women are trying to figure out how to keep a man they like interested somewhere between making out and a BJ, men could be learning to be a bit more intuitive. There is something between walking out naked and waiting seven dates to kiss a woman. (Examples from the podcast.) But, hey.  Evan’s a coach for women so men are on their own, I guess.

    So what’s a guy to do?  Try to get on the same page emotionally with the woman.  Read her body language.  Is it that difficult, especially once one is in their 40s?  Maybe it is for some men. I don’t have an answer what else to.

    As for women and arbitrary rules.  I don’t think it’s arbitrary. The guy who wants sex on date 1 or 2. He’s got there for a reason.  I don’t think he started out as a teenage boy there.  A woman who wants to wait until she gets to know a guy got there for a reason.  She didn’t just make that up in her head to be some “rule”.  People are doing what makes them feel safe. No one wants to feel taken advantage of.  I understand both parties.  I don’t know if there is an overlap in the venn diagram for these two types of people. And unfortunately, it seems like many men and women feel like this.

    Screw it.  Look for your overlapping circle.  Even if it’s a needle in a haystack. Burn the haystack. Stay single for a while if the burning burns you out.  Find the women who love to have sex on the first date and date them.  Evan makes it sound like a fate worse than death to be in the minority.  It’s not.  As long as it’s not just to be stubborn or out of fear or something.  I believe to thine own self be true. It may mean being alone for longer than most people.  But is that the worst thing in the world? Nope, it’s not.

    In the podcast Evan say it’s fine if you don’t want to give a guy a BJ/go to third base while you figure out if you want him to be your boyfriend. I didn’t get that from the comments here. He just said that women who will have a better chance of getting a man to stick around during that time.  I can’t disagree with that!  But men who want a woman to stick around have a better chance of that if they have a patience with whatever her timetable for sex is. Or find a woman who loves to move fast. Or wait for someone in the middle. Stay tuned in with your potential partner and see if you’re on the same page.  It’s kind of organic when it works. No discussion, people just . . . know.

    The more I listen to Evan’s podcasts I know in my bones the less confident men are the ones for me. It’s frustrating in a different way at times, but you pick your poison and that’s mine. Well, unless I find a middle ground guy in that haystack. 😉

    1. 20.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      “But men who want a woman to stick around have a better chance of that if they have a patience with whatever her timetable for sex is.”

      Sort of true. But not really. Any woman I met with a made up “rule” about X dates or weeks or months ALWAYS lost men. If you’re constantly losing men, you have yourself a self-selecting problem. You can justify it with “Well, the RIGHT guy would wait FOREVER,” and that’s okay. There’ll just be a much smaller pool of right guys. That holds true for ANY rule that EITHER gender makes.

      The guy who says, “I’m not paying for dates. It’s unfair, outdated, and I refuse to participate in courtship. The RIGHT woman will appreciate that and have an innate sense of fairness.” He will unintentionally – on principle – alienate most of his first dates. Eventually, he’ll find someone who is either very egalitarian and agrees than men shouldn’t pay, or, more likely, find a very insecure woman who will take whatever crumbs she can get from a man.

      My advice ALWAYS stems from what I believe is the most effective middle ground that works for the majority of both women AND men. If it’s only working for YOU; well, you may find yourself self-righteous and single – much like most of my most vociferous critics – who would rather be “right” than to be effective with the opposite sex.

      1. 20.1.1
        S.

        Thanks for replying to my comment.   I appreciate that.

        I don’t know any women who expect a man to wait forever, nor any woman who would want them to.  But I do think that people have to be on the same page about intimacy and pacing.

        My advice ALWAYS stems from what I believe is the most effective middle ground that works for the majority of both women AND men

        My only remaining question is “how”.  If men and women have gotten to certain places in their lives that may be less effective or reduce their dating pool, it’s not so easy to change what makes one feels safe.  Experiences get people where they are and one can’t just wake up one day and do something that every experience has taught them they ought not to do. Change is difficult and this isn’t a small, arbitrary thing to most men and women.

        I’m curious about the nuance of how someone would move one’s circle in the venn diagram over, if they feel very uncomfortable with it, but really want to try and move the circle.  A bit more detail on that would be helpful.

  20. 21
    SMC

    Excellent podcast, Evan.  Had never looked at kissing on the first date, which I don’t normally do, in the same light in which you shed it.  Interesting.  I’ll definitely be a little more receptive in the future, though to be honest, I’ve never had a man dump me or get mad at me for not doing it either.  There was always enough of a connection with the ones who eventually turned serious to stick around long enough for things to get physical.

    I have to smile when I think of my current guy’s strategy for getting physical: we had been dating semi-long distance for several weeks (a couple of months maybe?), seeing each other once a week on Wednesdays and texting, then talking and texting every day and evening before he invited me to spend a weekend with him.  “Don’t worry, we don’t have to have sex, I have a guest room you can use.  I’m patient and we can wait as long as you want.”  I was bowled over by this and went up to his place (an hour north) safe in the knowledge that we would take things at MY speed.  Well…we didn’t consummate things that first night but we weren’t far from it.  Sure, he tried but he respected my wishes not to.  By the second night, I myself was so turned on that we DID “do the deed” which cemented the relationship.  It was up to me and there was no way I was waiting any longer, and him saying he could be patient was just what I needed to relax and WANT to go forward all the way.  Great strategy.  If he had pushed, my innate stubbornness would have kicked in, but he let me control the speed which, because of his “patience,” propelled me into high gear.  We laugh about it to this day.

    Thanks for the podcast.  I’ve been pretty comfortable with the speed at which sexual relations have developed for me, but it’s never too late to gain more insight into the mind of men.  And isn’t that why we women are here in the first place?

    1. 21.1
      Cara

      SMC,

      Thanks for sharing your story.

      I have a similar story with my current boyfriend (6 months now) Granted, we are both in our late 40’s, and I’m rather glad to be above the dating age where guys seem to think that they need to be “tided over” with a BJ. My guy would be completely offended if I indicated that he needed to be compensated in some way for a date, or for spending time making sure I am comfortable.

      We were together exclusively a month before I spent the night, and he let me know that he was happy to hold me all night, with no sex.  ( I should say that we are actually both rather insatiable in that area, daily make’s us both happy) He let me know up front that he would wait as long as necessary.  Between those two things, I was comfortable quickly.

      I am not one to take advantage of a guy’s generosity or good nature, but I want a guy to date me for “me” not what is between my legs, and I need to like him for “him” , not what’s in his pants (wallet or penis).

      If he gives me the impression that sex is expected, he isn’t looking for me. There won’t be a second date.

      At 47, a single mom, with a minivan, and a size 12 to boot, I have no shortage of guys asking me out.  I haven’t had a single guy expect anything other than my company, and a few still hoping I will break up with my current bf.  Maybe that is because we aren’t in our 20’s, but even my daughters, 18 & almost 20, neither are sexually active, (*gasp* both virgins, and not religious, skinny and gorgeous) and no guy that asks them out expects tiding over. If he did, he wouldn’t get a second date, and they would label him a “dog”.

       

  21. 22
    Britt

    Wow, this advice has really shaken me to my core.  I can’t believe what I am reading.  I am extremely selective with my intimate partners, still in easy single digits at the age of 35 years old and not religious.  Haven’t spent a ton of time single, either.  The guys I really liked stuck around until I felt ready for sex of any kind.  My most recent boyfriend was a former Navy SEAL, so very high testosterone and obviously had many, many women before me.  He waited almost 2 months and it became a joke how many nights he was going to stay over and we fall asleep fully clothed talking in bed before caving in!  Unfortunately that kindness and sincerity about him that made me overlook other traits (emotional unavailability), but if HE was willing to be patient with little old me, certainly other more normal men can be patient and not resent it?

    I think I might be out of the dating pool forever if what Evan says here is true!  I’m just not wired to want physical intimacy with near-strangers.  And I’m worth the wait.

    1. 22.1
      SMC

      You’re not out of the dating pool, Britt.  Plenty of men are willing to let you take it at your own speed.  I know.  My partners have all let me call that particular shot, and I’ve rarely been single for long.  That’s not to say there’s no shenanigans, but at the end of the day (or night, as it were), when I managed to keep my clothes on, there were never any hard feelings.  Wait, yes there were, oops,.. 🙂  But none of my partners have EVER been left frustrated to the point of being angry with me.  We had a good enough connection that they thought I was worth the wait.  And you seem like the type who knows how to make that connection too.  I don’t hear Evan as saying “This is how you HAVE to do it,” it’s a guide into the male mindset, and it’s valuable stuff.  Adapt it to your comfort level.

      A Navy SEAL, huh?  I once breifly dated the head of a SWAT team and would have gladly “sped things along,” but alas, it wasn’t to be.  🙂

  22. 23
    PacNWLove

    No one said first date, LilyP.

    Evan, actually YOU are the one who said to give blow jobs on the first date. Give another listen to your podcast. You said “a woman who gives a great blow job also has a great chance of getting a second date. ”

    Maybe you meant a subsequent date, or additional dates before you become exclusive, or something else entirely, but what you said was that providing oral sex on the first date increases your chances of a second date. Directly after talking for twenty minutes about how kissing your date at the end of the first date was a reasonable reward. I’m guessing others were as confused and grossed out as I was when I heard this. I’m choosing to think you meant “subsequent”dates, and not actually suggesting that blow jobs are First Base. As you’re hearing from other women, blow jobs are widely considered to be part of the Home Run, or Third Base at the earliest. I would be really surprised if you truly think blow jobs are First Base and appropriate as a useful way to get to a second date, but maybe you do.

    I have bought three of your products  and written a couple of letters but I haven’t seen any tips on how to sweetly maneuver men who ask women out to go on a date outside their apartment instead of agreeing to wine on their couch on the first date. The Netlix and Chill date is epidemic, and my friends and I haven’t figured out a good response, just in case this is actually a good guy just being clueless or trying to save money. Your breakup scripts have been really useful for me and I use them often. I’d love to see a blog post on what you think an effective way to say “asking me to come over to essentially a stranger’s house and get drunk doesn’t make me feel safe or special” if he seems like a good guy. Or is any guy who suggests wine at his apartment on the first date not worth a response? How about a second date?

    1. 23.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I misspoke. I believe – as I’ve said repeatedly in this space – that taking a man “around the bases” over the course of 4-6 weeks gives a woman the best opportunity of slowing things down and seeing a man’s intentions clearly and simultaneously keeping the man pursuing and somewhat sexually gratified. I stand by that.

      As to how you “sweetly maneuver men,” via text I would be direct: “Hey, sweetie. I like what you’re thinking, but we’re not up to Netflix and chill quite yet. That’s for boyfriends. If you know what’s good for you, give me a call now and let’s figure out something fun for Friday night. XO” You maintain boundaries without making him “wrong” or shooting him down harshly. It’s the exact same philosophy for handling foreplay in the bedroom (as outlined in Why He Disappeared).

      All the women disagreeing with me here are entitled to your feelings, but the second you make him (or, by proxy, me) “wrong” for thinking that we want some physicality in our dating (as opposed to 6 weeks of paying for dinners/making out), you are hurting your own chances to find a comfortable middle ground that works for both parties.

      Logically, the more a man pleases you, the better chance he has with you. By the same extension, the more you do that makes him happy, the better chance you have with him. Let’s not forget that dating is a two way street, and it’s not just a man’s job to court you, but it’s your job to make him feel good about his courtship.

      1. 23.1.1
        Lilyp

        Quite a few of the men here are also agree with us. Face it Evan, you’re in the minority here. We love you but you’re never going to get a majority of women to see a blow job as less intimate than penetrative sex. No it doesn’t make him wrong to want sex anymore than it makes me wrong to want to wait. Is that not the point though, to screen out men who only want sex? I’m still not getting how waiting making him wait for penetrative sex but giving BJs is achieving that. We will have to agree to disagree, I am sure you’re tired of me at this point LOL

         

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          The majority is not always right. Go to a men’s blog and ask how fast things should move sexually and you’ll get a widely different answer. Which is my point: if you can’t find a middle ground between kissing and intercourse that is mutually satisfying, you may run into problems.

        2. Adreana

          “Go to a men’s blog and ask how fast things should move sexually and you’ll get a widely different answer”.

          Most everyday men can’t chalk up the confidence to ask a woman out let alone have heavy make out sessions. lol. I think they would be thrilled just to make out the first 1-2 months ( if she’s a great woman of course). If he isn’t cool with that then he probably just wanted casual sex anyways.

          I will say one thing though, the reason why I had success with this is because I was sexy regardless and I knew how to keep them on their toes ( most of them anyway). Had I acted like Mary Poppins,  I probably would’ve had a very different outcome.I am probably one of the horniest virgins my age so that so maybe that helped! haha 🙂

          Thanks for the script, btw! Very helpful.

        3. SMC

          I myself see bj’s as less intimate than penetrative sex, FAR less intimate.  I would only do it with an exclusive partner, but since it’s all about HIS pleasure and not, in particular, mine, it’s not nearly as intimate as when he and I are both getting off together.  I had no idea I was in the minority on this subject.  Makes me want to take an informal poll at my office, though I have a feeling the young ones (girls) would be shocked if I, an older gal, were to bring up the subject.

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          SMC,

          Yep, Evan’s podcast  opened up a huge Pandora’s box of questions.  What acts are considered SEX?  What sexual activities require you to include a partner in your total body count?  What activities should be reserved for exclusive partners?  When or with what activities do you risk getting emotionally attached?  Is x more intimate than Z?

          Evan, I assumed you misspoke in the podcast when you said a blow job would increase your chances of getting a second date.  It was the first post comment when you said good blowjob skills would buy a woman a month before boyfriend decision time came around that was the whoa! moment for me.  Since a reasonable time frame for an exclusivity agreement is deemed to be 4-6 weeks, instead of a trot around the bases, it sounded more like the guy hitting a triple on date 2 or 3 and then hanging out a 3rd base for a long time.

          I enjoy sex, and don’t have to be, nor do I expect to be in love when I first have it with a guy, but I do need to like him and feel comfortable with him.  Kissing on the first date isn’t an issue, so I have to figure out how to get my need for a base level of comfort met while giving him some satisfaction without making him feel like a boor or a blue-balled teenager.  I’ll  have to work on that 😉

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Yes, I misspoke. My point was that if a man is somewhat sexually gratified as he gets to know you/you get to know him/you both decide if a relationship is in store, you have a much stronger chance of things working out. From the comments here, you’d think there was only one side to the story:

          I go at my snail’s pace – keep things above the waist as long as I want – and the right guy will not only like that, respect it but also want to make me his girlfriend.

          Has that happened? Sure. But most adult men have a faster pace in mind and personally, I think it should be a pace that you control – that is EQUALLY agreeable to him.

      2. 23.1.2
        PacNWLove

        Thanks, Evan- I’m adding that to my long list of useful scripts you’ve provided! Expecting better treatment and asking for what I want in a relationship is very hard for me, truly because no one has ever taught me what to say. This really helps.

      3. 23.1.3
        Not Jerry

        Evan, I have met more than a few women who said essentially “I am surprised some man hasn’t snapped me up yet.”  One just last week.
        She talked about how great a cook she was and then said that. But ya know, my assessment of her is that her demeanor was obnoxious. We were at a singles happy hour! She really was not very nice!

        That is laughable. You have to make that snapping happen. This is the 21st century.

        No man is going to sweep in and make you happy!

        You need to make it happen, by being the best version of yourself you can manage. I’m working on that. It’s going to be a lifetime effort.

        Simple. It’s so simple.

        1. Emily, the original

          Not Jerry,

          I have met more than a few women who said essentially “I am surprised some man hasn’t snapped me up yet.”  

          And there’s nothing more unappealing (and painfully transparent) than someone having to point out how great she is. That’s for you to discover as you get to know her. A confident person doesn’t have to announce herself like that.

          I’ve spent time with men who do that: They have to tell you about all the other women who find them appealing. It’s a complete turn off.

    2. 23.2
      Adrian

      Hello PacNWLove,

      Could you either give me a few of those break-up scripts or at least direct me to those post by Evan?

       

      I find myself always at a lost on how to politely let my dates know I am not interested in them; I just find the thought of telling a woman who is obviously very attracted to me that she unattractive, boring, or a weight I’m not attracted to, etc.

       

       

      1. 23.2.1
        Olga

        I understand that if a woman’s really attracted to you, that means that you’ve gone out more than once, correct? I.e. it’s not like you’ve just met and only spent an hour or two together. Yet you can see that she’s overweight or unattractive practically right away. So I’m seeing a little bit of cognitive dissonance here: if she’s unattractive to you, how come you keep meeting/dating for her to fall in love/become very attractive? (Instead of, say, sending her an sms after the first date:”Thank you very much for the lovely evening, but I didn’t feel the nessary click between us. Good luck in your search!”) That just doesn’t make sense to me.

        1. Adrian

          Hello Olga,

           

          I am not sure of your dating experiences but for myself, I have had a plethora of first dates where the other was very attracted to me but I did not feel the same.

           

          Online, it’s more a reaction to how they look physically compared to their pictures; in offline dating it is usually more of a character or personality turn-off. But I have had times when I met women offline that looked one way in a mediumly lite room and differently on a bright day sitting outside. I think whenever you are on the fence about your attraction to a person, it is easy to be pushed to over completely to the left of the right about them.

        2. SMC

          Oh Adrian, I do have to laugh at your comment “But I have had times when I met women offline that looked one way in a mediumly lite [sic] room and differently on a bright day sitting outside.”
          I meet men when I go country dancing, and country bars are always pretty dimly lit.  I am VERY cognizant of the difference in one’s appearance from there to a brightly lit day.  In fact, I told my current man that he would NEVER see me in the light of day after he admitted he had thought I was in my 30’s until we got to talking about previous marriages, kids, etc. and he realized I had to be a lot older than that.  I laughed out loud and that’s when I told him he would only see me at the bar because bar lights are a lot kinder to women than daylight is.  That was 13 months ago.  My opinion is that if one meets in a dimly-lit room, one had better be forthcoming about the change there’s going to be when seen in the light of day.  It is no fun to have a guy do a double-take when the lights go up and say “You DO have lines.”  And yes, a guy once told me that.  🙁

      2. 23.2.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        Adrian,

        I’ve talked through break up scenarios with both my brother and son.  A few ideas:

        If you are on a first date and you’re not feeling it, don’t hint at future dates.  If she says something like, “We should do this again.”  You can either side step by changing the conversation or meet it head on:  “Jane, I’m glad we were able to spend time getting to know each other a little better.  You’re a wonderful woman, but I’m not feeling that spark between us, so it would only give false hope if I said yes, and I respect you too much to let you hang like that.”  If it’s at the end of the date, you part and go your own ways.  If it’s in the middle of a date, not answering the question, and changing the subject may be a more comfortable option.

        If you didn’t get put on the spot with a we should do this again, at the end of the date, do not hug or kiss her, simply say “Thank you for a nice evening.”  Leave it at that.  Don’t say “I’ll call you sometime,” or anything like it.  It might be a little awkward, but you haven’t said or implied that you want to spend more time with her.  If she is hurt when you don’t call a week later, it’s on her, you made no promises nor did anything to create her expectation.

        If it’s later on in a relationship with a woman, a version of the statement above will work.  Another way to do it is to say, “It’s not a matter of either of us being wrong in anything, I just don’t think we have the level of compatibility needed to move ahead”.  By doing this, you aren’t blaming her, “You’re just not_____ (insert adjective here) enough for me.”  But you are stating the truth of the matter:  You’re not comparable enough to go to the next level.

        Breakups will always involve someone being disappointed, sad, or hurt.  There’s no magic words to turn those feelings off.  Be honest and maintain your integrity.  Don’t give false hope or knowingly create expectations.  She might do that herself, but it’s not on you.  Some girls will still freak out, just like some guys freak out when women break up with them..  It’s a hazard that goes with the territory.  Be deliberate, honest, and kind and hopefully you will minimize any blowback.

        If there is something totally egregious going on with the woman, you may want to let her know, depending upon how long you’ve been with her, so that she gets the help she needs in her life.  If you love or care for her it could be the biggest gift she ever receives from you.

        For instance there is a woman in my circle of friends who is beautiful, intelligent, educated, a good cook, and likes to hike, camp, and do other outdoor activities.  Unbeknownst to us, she had a horrible temper and would scream, cuss, and kick doors and cars when she was angry.  She had an LTR over several years where they just didn’t make it to marriage.  Her boyfriend told her she needed counseling, but he never told her WHY.

        They broke up and she started dating again.  Several guys over a year or two. A bunch of us girls were on a weekend girls’ retreat.  We had been drinking, watching movies, and talking.  Z decided to call her new boyfriend.  When he didn’t answer, she repeatedly called and texted him, becoming more paranoid about what he was doing.  She left nasty messages and began swearing, screaming, and kicked the laundry room door of our friend’s parents’ lake house.  We finally got her to settle down and go to sleep.  The next morning everyone got up before Z.  We we’re all like WTF?  No wonder guys keep dumping her (that was actually said).

        When Z woke up, she immediately complained that D was such a jerk.  We all confronted her on her behavior.  She didn’t see what she did as being that bad.  Apparently her parents had spent their 40 years of marriage having knock down drag out fights, that included name calling, hitting walls and doors, and saying they hated each other.  This was actually “normal” for her.

        That boyfriend broke up with her too. But the incident led her into a year of therapy to deal with her anger issues.  A few years later she met a man and got married.  She never would have if us four women and her boyfriend at that time had not told her specifically that name calling, kicking doors, swearing, and screaming was abusive behavior any sane guy should walk away from.

        1. Caroline

          Hi GWTF-interesting story. Do you think on some level she knew it was wrong? And she thought she could get away with it because she was beautiful, intelligent, etc?  Could someone be so oblivious to not know that was bad behavior? Maybe she did really think that’s how folks behaved behind closed doors?

          funny story. My mom tells it on herself:). She actually called her mother sobbing because my dad “raised his voice” with her! Not yelled or ranted or hit walls. Ha Not so funny story-my ex rarely showed any temper  until after 15 years in when he began to drink. I pray my sons will not think all that’s normal. I took them to therapy after our divorce  but you gotta wonder how much of that is deeply instilled as with your girlfriend-sad and scary.

        2. Caroline

          Oh-why I asked if you thought she was aware it was bad behavior was because of how my ex reacted to it when you call him out on it! It was so bad that my attorney told me to file a restraining order because of how he acted outside the atty’s office. He always denies by insisting I’m either crazy or I’m blowing it out of proportion. I think that he does that so he can feel better about himself by not only lying to others but to himself. It worries me that my sons after hearing this denial they actually give him the benefit of a doubt. Like most bullies-it’s “she started it, she shouldn’t have done x, y or z”.  Makes you wonder what your girlfriends parents fed to her to excuse their actions:(

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Caroline,

          One of the women who was at the Lake house that weekend had met the boyfriend (Z self describes as the love of her life) who told Z she needed to go to counseling.  After the lake house weekend the friend ran into this ex of Z’s and they had a real frank discussion about it.  The big temper blow outs happened about twice a year, but Z was also quick to snap at things.  He wanted to marry Z, but the blowouts frightened him.  He wondered if they had kids if Z would snap and hurt them.  He told Z she needed to go to counseling for her temper, but never got specific about what concerned him.  Z didn’t think she had much of a temper and thought her ex was being too sensitive.  I think it was because these big arguments were far between, and they would part then see each other and nothing was ever said, so I think she thought it was forgiven and forgotten.

          Z really loved this guy and I wonder if she would have realized there was a problem if he said, “I love you, but I won’t marry you until you go to therapy and address your anger issues.  And by anger issues I mean how you explode, call me names, tell me you hate me, kick pieces of furniture, slam doors, storm out, and then the next day act like nothing happened.  This is not acceptable, and this is a relationship breaker.  I am afraid that if we have kids, you will explode at them like you do at me which will be very damaging to them.  I want to help you, but you have to want to change.”

          I think most other guys saw that she snapped at things and walked away.  Then she had the drunks text and phone rage at D.  He told her that it was verbal abuse and that no one had ever behaved that way towards him and he broke up with her.

          So I think it was the both denial on her part, and that the blow out stuff was well hidden.  Everyone on the weekend retreat had known her for years and some had travelled with her and never saw the extent of it.

          I do think that if your SO is potentially dangerous are too volatile to predict.  By all means put safety first by walking away!

      3. 23.2.3
        Nissa

        Adrian,

        Some of the things I have said to dates with whom either I was not attracted or I felt they ‘were not into’ me. At the end of the date I would say:

        – Thanks for such a creative / thoughtful / fun date! Take care, have a great night / weekend.  I can tell you are  ___ (a good daughter, a kind sister, patient, selfless, whatever I think he or she finds of value.  After all you do want to be kind, while not making any promise of further dates).

        -I don’t think __ is right for me, but I can see it’s worked really well for you.

        – I would never be able to do ___ (when something about them is something I know I’d never be willing to do, like babysit her sister’s kids or host the NRA group). It’s a subtle hint that you will never, ever be willing to join this person in that activity, lol.

        – I really love ___ (picking something they have said they don’t like, and revealing that I’m really into it. For example, if they are eating their body weight in dessert, I mention my deep love of riced cauliflower as my normal dinner. Kale, brussel sprouts, or vegan meals are almost guaranteed to turn off a potential suitor you are trying to avoid).

        – I know I’d never __ (have the patience to have three kids, be willing to stay home every Sat night, take care of her alcoholic brother, whatever thing she does that you know is a deal breaker).

        Trust me, after you say those things she’ll be running the other way. It’s always easier to have them self select out.

  23. 24
    KK

    I read the post and comments before I had a chance to watch the video and I was a little surprised by all the negative comments, wondering what exactly Evan said that had so many upset. After watching the video, I was more baffled because he mentioned the BJ thing ONCE as ONE POSSIBLE SOLUTION to keep things steadily progressing. You would have thought that was the entire premise of it, which it wasn’t. Geez.

    1. 24.1
      Adrian

      Hi KK,

      I did the samething. I actually went back and listened to it again thinking I missed a whole section.

      Interestingly enough, it seems many are also missing the part where he suggested the sexual stuff “after the man has already asked for commitment, and took down his dating profile.”

      The blowjob was just something he suggest women should do for a guy who wanted a relationship and she was not read for sex yet (because women can be ready to call a guy her boyfriend but still not be ready to have sex with him). I wasn’t getting that Evan was suggesting that women should just give blowjobs to some stranger she isn’t even sure she wants to date.

      …   …   …

      To paraphrase a quote from the movie Gladiator,

      “the mob is fickle, it’s as if everything he taught before this has been forgotten and the crowd now doubts him”

      1. 24.1.1
        Lilyp

        KK and Adrian, listen again and read Evans comments agains. He even admitted he misspoke.

         

        1. Adrian

          Hi Lilyp,

          I will re-read the comments and listen again.

          But the reason I quoted the line from the movie Gladiator is because it seems like just because Evan misspoke, some readers are now treating him like he is not the same man who wrote “women are the CEO’s of their companies (their dating lives) and should treat men as if they are applying (courting) to be her intern (boyfriend).”

           

          I guess my point is, if Evan ever slipped up and said that a guy who met a woman for the first time in person (first date) “deserves” a Great blowjob from her that night.

          I would not sweat it, because it is not consistent with what he has been saying over and over for the last 10 years!!! Evan is a straight man who loves sex, but that does not mean that he would ever put a random man’s sexual urges over a woman like his sister, his wife, his mother, or the commenters seeking his guidance.

        2. Adreana

          “Interestingly enough, it seems many are also missing the part where he suggested the sexual stuff “after the man has already asked for commitment, and took down his dating profile.”

          Yeah, but from my understanding the guy is likely to ask for a commitment after a few weeks to a month ,correct ? So in that case it’s ok to give him a bj .

          I don’t know about you, but I’m very wary of people who ask for a commitment after a few weeks of dating ( esp. if we only see each other once a week). I want a guy to make that decision from a grounded, secure place where he KNOWS he wants a relationship with me. The bj isn’t “special” to him if he still hasn’t reached that point….similary, if you took a woman to lets say, a very romantic date of dinner on a yacht. Yes, she will feel great , but she would appreciate it even more  if you did that after  you really got to know her. Now she feels really special, and doesn’t think you’re trying too hard too soon. And honestly, I don’t see a bj as a “reward ” for a guy who’s been taking you out for a few weeks and paying for dinner( at least first few dates)- I see those actions as the bare minimum to keep seeing a guy.

        3. Adreana

          lol I meant to say,  so in that case it’s ok to give him a bj according to podcast.

        4. Adreana

          GoWithTheFlow

          You wouldn’t believe how many times I heard my girlfriends express their frustations with this—they go down on their boyfriends after they’ve asked for it , but when they ask for the same they get excuses …”oh i’m too tired, maybe another time”. I’m shocked they continue to have sex with these selfish men.

        5. Adrian

          Hi Adreana,

           

          I’m curious, do you believe that the more a woman is attracted to a guy the quicker she wants him to commit? Or do you believe that a woman can be really attracted to a guy but still wants him to take months before he wants to be monogamous with her?

           

          Secondly, so if you are dating a guy with lots of options, and you want him to court you for months, do you feel that his reward for all his effort should just be your company and kissing you?

        6. Adreana

          Adrian,

          If I’m really into the guy, my emotions may want him to commit quickly, but my mind wants to take things slower. I am a romantic person at heart, but I’m also a logical/analytical  person. I’d rather get to know him and make smart decisions than rush into things and feel like a fool later.  I don’t want a commitment before one month  but I also don’t want to wait too long to be exclusive.

          As for your second question. I want to have sex too, but not before a committed relationship and  the right time. I don’t see having sex as a “reward ” for a guy that has been courting me…that implies I’m under an obligation to have sex when I’m not ready and that’s pretty insecure and unattractive. In this matter, I don’t treat the guys with options any different than the rest.

          I know this a stupid but bear with me.) Years ago, my girlfriends and I met a very popular singer after a concert. There were a bunch of fans there, and the women ( young and old) went crazy when he showed up! lol and I sure don’t blame him because he’s ever so gorgeous.) When my turn came, I had a normal playful conversation without throwing myself at him or squealing like the others. In other words, I didn’t treat him like a “celebrity”.

          The normal guys with options are a piece of cake compared to this. lol 🙂 Doesn’t mean I don’t get nervous or have butterflies in the stomach, I just try to be centered as best as possible.

      2. 24.1.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        Hi Adrian,

        A lot of the “disagreement” originated in the comments section.  It’s not because Evan said anything that is wrong it’s because people have differing definitions and value systems when it comes to sexual activity.

        The whole blow job debate centers around whether a person considers oral sex and intercourse to be equivalent activities or assigns a lower seriousness value to blowjobs.  Also coming into play is whether blow job only partners count towards a woman’s “number.”

        My personal view is that oral sex IS sex and I’m usually giving a man his first blowjob during the same session in which we’re having intercourse for the first time.  I also believe that if a woman has had intercourse with 2 men and given blowjobs, but not had intercourse with another 2, her total number of sexual partners is 4.  Not all people hold those same views.  I learned that the summer after high school graduation when two of us girls were at another friend’s house.  Her cousin, who was visiting, smugly informed us that even though she gave blow jobs and had butt sex, she had not had vaginal sex because she was a virgin saving herself for marriage.  (At this point the three non-virgins in the room broke into fits of hysterical laughter 😉 )

        So when Evan said in the comments section that good blowjob skills would buy a woman a month’s worth of time to find out whether or not she wanted the blow–ee to be her boyfriend, the oral sex = intercourse readers reacted negatively to that.  They also reacted negatively to Evan’s comment that, in his experience, women are concerned about their body count and looking for ways to postpone intercourse and emotional investment, so spending time on 3rd base was a way to accomplish that.

        Women readers who believe blowjobs are not as intimate as intercourse and who can give BJs without becoming emotionally vulnerable i.e., they don’t start assuming the guy has feelings for them because they are blowing him, can easily implement Evan’s suggestion.  He reports that many of his clients have had great success doing this.  I don’t doubt that.  For the women who risk becoming emotionally attached because they believe they are being intimate with a man when they give him oral sex, they may be setting themselves up for heartache if they spend a month giving a man blow jobs and then he doesn’t step up to the boyfriend plate.

        For women like this, myself included, we have to recognize that men want sex earlier than later.  Men don’t want to be viewed as disgusting animals for wanting sex.  They don’t enjoy feeling like a 14 year old who can only smooch his girlfriend on the living room couch while her parents are in the next room, when they are responsible adult men.  We have to integrate that knowledge with our own emotional safety needs to come up with a plan to round the bases with boyfriend eligible men.

        For me that might mean making sure dates 1 and 2 end with kisses but not in full body press, groping, make out sessions–thus starting the base trotting off with a sprint.  Then maybe adding blowjobs earlier than at a point where the guy would be getting everything, but at a point where I can reasonably manage my expectations and possible attachment feelings.  The middle I’ll have to figure out 😉

        As for the intensity that was displayed by many women commenters, be aware that the lack of reciprocity a lot of us experience in the oral sex department is a real sore spot.  Many women will wind up giving way more oral sex than we will receive.  It’s a damn shame for us because for many, it’s the most guaranteed way to get to an orgasm.  From what I hear, this imbalance is especially true for young and up and coming young women.  (Read Girls & Sex by Peggy Orenstein or listen to her NPR interview on YouTube). So the suggestion that we give blowjobs, as a way to delay mutually pleasureable intercourse, especially if our belief is to consider them to be equivalent in seriousness, really can grate the nerves.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          At no point did I say you shouldn’t be receiving pleasure, too. I don’t know why I have to say that out loud, but evidently, I have to. Going around the bases is mutually gratifying.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Evan,

          You have never said or implied that going around the bases shouldn’t be a pleasurable experience for women.

          I just wanted Adrian and the other male readers on the blog to know that the temperature setting on some of the responses may be higher than the issue seems to warrant because it hits some women in a sensitive spot that men generally aren’t aware of.  Callie references this type of “baggage” in comment #13

  24. 25
    Karmic Equation

    Here’s another woman that believes bjs are a treat that only bfs should get. Why are they treats? Because that’s the one sex act where the guy “just lays there” and doesn’t have to do anything. ZERO effort on his part. In fact, I’ve actually told guys who asked for bjs early, that “only bfs get bjs, hon” with a smile as I French kiss them out of their minds.

    And I don’t swallow (not after my first time where I nearly died gagging. lol). Swallowing cum is like swallowing someone else’s phlegm. NO THANKS! lmao

    But bfs have always asked for them anyway, cuz I make it very fun for them to watch. I start the bj, get them to the edge, then finish with a great handjob.

    With vaginal sex, the guy is more than happy to do the driving the first time. And BOTH partners can enjoy his efforts. So, I’d rather have sex early than give bjs early.

    1. 25.1
      Emily, the original

      Karmic,

      Here’s another woman that believes bjs are a treat that only bfs should get.

      I don’t think of them as a treat. They are just one part of the sexual experience. I don’t necessarily do them every time I hook up with a sex partner or boyfriend, but then again I don’t follow a script. I just go into it with one goal: to have a good time with someone I find appealing.

      1. 25.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        By treat, I meant that all there is is a bj. No sex before or after. I don’t expect reciprocity. Just the standalone bj. All give, no take.

        To me, mouth to genitals during foreplay is a reciprocal foreplay, not a treat.

        1. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          Oh, I got you. Yes, a stand-alone would be a treat!

    2. 25.2
      SMC

      LOL, KE, I always looked at it like swallowing “zinc pudding.”  I figure if a guy can swallow my “essence” and not feel the need to spit and rinse, then I should return the favor.  It’s always been a huge turn-on for them, I’ve never gagged because of it, and the appreciation from them has ALWAYS been through the roof, probably because most women DO gag and spit.  I think I’d feel a little put off if a guy gagged and spit after going down on me.

      Different strokes for different folks, I guess. 🙂

      1. 25.2.1
        Karmic Equation

        LOL. SMC, has your guy ever deep kissed you after going down on you?

        If a guy’s come tasted like my “essence”, I’d be swallowing without gagging 😉

        That said, I’ve been told women tasted differently. Some are sweet, some are salty, etc. I would imagine it depends on her diet and whether or not she smoked.

        Also, female pheremones are secreted “down there” – so he gets the benefit of that when he goes down, whereas men’s pheremones are NOT secreted near his genitals, but in his armpits, for example. (I’ve read this somewhere, but cannot find in Google search, sorry). So we don’t get doses of pheremones when we go down. Maybe it’s me, or maybe it’s the men I date, but I swear they smell like bleach down there.

        LMAO. It’s a wonder I do this at all given all the negatives I’ve just put down in writing. <smh>

        1. SMC

          OK, now I’M laughing out loud, KE.  Yes, I’ve been deep kissed after they’ve gone down on me, and it’s…interesting (tasted like lemons to me, though they said it was sweet).  LOL!  On the other hand, they’ve let me deep kiss THEM after a “completed” bj too – tit for tat – which always surprises me.  Guess they didn’t want to spoil the mood.  Despite my comments, I’ve only tasted a very, VERY select few, and admittedly they tasted as different from each other as men say women do, but none has ever tasted like bleach.  I’m laughing at this whole thread, but gee, it IS a protected site and we ARE on topic.  At any rate, bj’s to me aren’t so much a “treat” as they are an expression of deep and growing attraction, bordering on love before the feelings actually become love, per se.  We are well into the young stages of the relationship before I’ll do it, too – long past most base running except for home plate.  I don’t know, timewise, when I usually do a bj, it just has to feel right.  And it sure as heck isn’t to hang onto a guy, or give him a taste (no pun intended) of what’s to come, it’s just part of the overall Thanksgiving dinner that constitutes the relationship he’s having with me.  The cranberry sauce, maybe – not a full course, just an added bit of pizzazz.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          KE & SMC,

          LOL!

          For the record, many of my girlfriends say it’s not so much a taste issue as a texture issue. 😉

      2. 25.2.2
        Emily, the original

        SMC,

        I figure if a guy can swallow my “essence” and not feel the need to spit and rinse, then I should return the favor.

        I agree. Plus, it’s seems to be that sex comes with … noises, smells, liquids. If you go into the room with someone, it signals you are cool with the whole experience.

  25. 26
    Esther

    Evan, a guy who says”I don’t do that” when you try to kiss him at the end of an amazing date is just someone who isn’t attracted to you. It’s different for women (at least for me) because I can like a guy and think he’s attractive, but could not want to kiss him on a first date. This isn’t because of any arbitrary rules that I set for myself. It’s because someone I spent 2-3 hours with is still a stranger and kissing is something I consider intimate. It’s a sign of trust and it can take at least a few dates to get up to that stage. So the women who say “A guy has to go out with you on X number of dates in order to kiss you” say that because they want to reach a level of emotional intimacy before getting physical.

  26. 27
    Theo

    I get somewhat puzzled by reading this post because it does not entirely match my dating and relationship experience. I have had several relations since my youth some thirty years age of various quality and length, including an 18 years long marriage. They all started in a similar way: I met a girl/woman, we dated at at least once a week and very soon we fell in love with each other — typically within a month. While falling in love with each other we started our erotic relationship and soon had frequent intercourse. There was no need for an intermediate phase of bj’s. This may sound simple but from an overall perspective it was not, since I had difficulties finding the right person(s) — especially in my thenties I was rejected many times by women that I was into. It was a struggly to me, but when I met the “right” girl everything was easy.

    If it isn’t easy, smooth and rewarding, you haven’t found your match!

     

  27. 28
    Sheila

    I just started seeing a man that lives five hours away. I don’t have the time at my age (mid-fifties) to wait for a respectable amount of time to sleep with him. I could be dead tomorrow!  I think giving a great BJ is fine and it simmers him down. It’s not like you’re giving your whole self to him. Women need to chill out on giving BJ’s.  I actually love doing it.

    1. 28.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Shiela,

      Just no.  That’s great that you don’t feel like you are emotionally investing yourself  or “giving your whole self to him” when you blow a guy.  Some women do, and saying they need to “chill out” implies that their sexual need and values are wrong when in fact they are within the range of normal.

      I’m glad you love giving blowjobs.  I love giving them too.  I love doing it so much that I have spent time gathering and learning info on technique.  I made one boyfriend very happy when I told him I wanted to learn how to deep throat and needed to practice.

      You see Sheila, you seem to believe the stereotype that women who need to “chill out” because they put a high value on oral sex, are prudes.  We’re not.  We believe giving head is more than just a method to get a guy to “simmer down.”  We love and care for our guy and want to maximize his pleasure and make him happy.  Because our sex life is mutually pleasureable and he makes us happy.

  28. 29
    Adrian

    This post as well as the post I linked at the bottom are very similar to me, so my answer will be the same.

     

    I feel that both parties (Evan and his female commentators) are correct depending on a few variables. A man who is let’s say a 5 dating a woman who is a 7-7.5 will wait as long as she wants sexually until she is ready; it’s not PC but she holds more power in that relationship. But if both parties are 5s or 7s, then they need to come to a compromise to satisfies both equally.

     

    A woman who is a 5 dating a man who is a 7-7.5 will be most likely be okay to give the man sex earlier if he demanded it. Thought to be honest, I am still having trouble understanding the looks verse success thing in regards to female attraction (sorry Karmic Equation).

     

    So I am not sure if a woman who is a 5 in looks but she is a Lawyer, be willing to compromise sexually with a guy who is a 8 in looks but he works at Walmart; who holds more power in that dynamic? What if she was a 8 in looks but worked a walmart and he was a 5 in looks but was a CEO, would she compromise sexually, would he being willing to wait longer then?

    How Do I Let a Guy Know I’m Interested if I Don’t Kiss Until The 3rd Date?

    1. 29.1
      Stacy

      Adrian,

      I think it depends on what the 5 vs the 7 values. In general, I think men (in the beginning anyway) tend to put a higher value on looks  (not that women don’t also see looks as high value, but a woman would more often than a man, give a guy a chance who treats her well and may allow attraction to ‘grow’). So if the 5 considers finances a priority, she will still see the 7 in looks as a lower average.

      On the other hand, she may put the CEO as a 9 even if his looks are objectively a 5. My point is, looks are only one aspect-although a powerful one, it’s certainly far from the only thing that is taken into consideration.Personally, as long as the man is gainfully employed, it’s not an issue for me.BUT as non materialistic as I am, I probably won’t entertain a man working at Walmart at this point in my life (I am in my 30s) no matter his looks…Just being honest.

    2. 29.2
      Adreana

      Adrian,

      Very interesting! But what if both the man and woman are 8 lookwise, and both have equally decent careers?  On an emotional level, I say the person with the most power is the one who isn’t afraid of walking away.

      1. 29.2.1
        Stacy

        Adreana,

        No matter the ‘number’ (whether an 8, a 5, etc.) the person with the most ‘power’ (I still shudder a little when I use that word to illustrate a relationship dynamic) will always be the person who isn’t afraid to walk away.

        But I would argue that if you aren’t afraid to walk away in any relationship for whatever reason, you were settling in the first place.

        And the person who isn’t afraid to walk away is usually the one who has more options and has invested less.

        1. Adreana

          You have a point, but for me I don’t necessarily see it as settling for less in the 1st  place. You can very attracted to the person and have feelings for them, but if you’re not happy ( and they aren’t willing to try) you have to the strength to walk away. Yes it hurts, but it opens up the possibility of meeting someone more compatible.  I agree that having other options helps immensley.

          I cringe at the word “power” too, but unfortunately that’s often the way it is when dating someone new. Even in group situations with friends or amongst coworkers, there is always going to be that person who leads the group and gets their way, while the others nod their heads and go along to get along.

        2. Adreana

          and btw, I don’t  believe the better looking or richer person automatically has the “power”- it all comes down to confidence and how willing you are to find what you want.

        3. Adrian

          Hi Stacy,

          I agree with you 100%. It is not as romantic or even as nice as we all would like it to be, in context to a relationship, the person not as attached to a person who is attached has the power.

      2. 29.2.2
        Stacy

        Adreana,

        This comment is addressing your comment in response to mine below..

        But that’s the point, if you are not happy and you stayed, you WOULD be settling…so no matter how you slice it, if it’s easy to walk away or you have no qualms about leaving, then I think there is something about that relationship that does not inspire you enough to fight for it, hence, you would be settling otherwise.

        I think that’s the point of marriage (or at least the way it’s supposed to be)  where ideally you have found the person you can’t just walk away from.

        1. Karmic Equation

          A person should ALWAYS walk away from what they consider “bad conduct” (cheating, lying, abuse); bad manners, bad breath, bad wardrobe decisions, those are negotiable.

          Having power in a relationship doesn’t mean power over the other person, but rather power over one’s self while in a relationship. So being empowered in a relationship is not about options (or lack thereof), it’s about the individual’s ability to make a sound decision independent of their feelings.

          For example, if a person stays in a relationship with a verbal or physical abuser or alcoholic or with an incompatible person out of fear of not finding another person or out of fear of perceived as a failure, that person has disempowered him/herself. Because that person is allowing fear to make their relationship decision.

          Obviously, there are legitimate physical safety reasons for an abused person to stay in a physically abusive relationship (until they can leave it safely)…But other than that, women or men who stay in unhealthy relationships because “they just can’t walk away” from that person doesn’t mean that person is one’s soulmate.

          People have to remember that one of the requirements for being a person’s soulmate should be respect and a genuine aversion to treating their partner poorly.

          That said, people change as they age. Growing apart is sometimes an outcome. One person grows and the other stays the same. People who end relationships because of that aren’t doing it because of power. It’s because one or both parties are no longer the same person they started the relationship as. It’s not fair to ask the person who didn’t want to grow to grow to keep the relationship, any more than it is for the person who didn’t grow during the relationship to ask the other person to go back to being who they used to be.

          If a compromise can’t be made by accepting the partner as they have become (of have always been), then the only good outcome is to end it. “Fighting for” the other to change or to change back is to exercise the wrong kind of power, imo.

           

        2. Adreana

          “it’s about the individual’s ability to make a sound decision independent of their feelings”.

          Yes. Exactly.

        3. Stacy2

          So being empowered in a relationship is not about options (or lack thereof), it’s about the individual’s ability to make a sound decision independent of their feelings.

          I may print it and put it on my fridge. Well said KE!

           

        4. toddinhb

          This last comment about options reminded me of a Chris Rock bit when he says that a man is only as faithful as his options.

          BTW, this is turning into an epic thread!

    3. 29.3
      Emily, the original

      Adrian … Adrian … Oh, Adrian,

      A woman who is a 5 dating a man who is a 7-7.5 will be most likely be okay to give the man sex earlier if he demanded it. Thought to be honest, I am still having trouble understanding the looks verse success thing in regards to female attraction (sorry Karmic Equation).

      Can we please dispense with the numbers system? I think it’s distasteful, but I know a lot of people disagree. Just my opinion  …  but yuck.

      Secondly, you seem to think that attraction/interest can be reduced to some magic formula, so that why a woman finds one man appealing and not another will make sense. But attraction/interest is valued differently and defined differently by each person.

      1.) Some women will only date men who are aesthetically very good-looking. They will also only be attracted to those men.

      2.) Some women will only date men who are very successful. Maybe she looks at dating very practically and knows she wants to be lead a certain kind of life.

      3.) Some women will “give a guy a chance” who she initially feels lukewarm about if he keeps showing up and doesn’t set off any red flags. Or he’s got a good job and checks of some of the “must haves” on her list. The attraction will grow.

      4.) Some women will weigh attraction with compatibility in terms of shared interests and values.

      5.) Some women want to feel a powerful, intense physical attraction right off the bat and will reject anyone who doesn’t give her that feeling. And–READ THIS CAREFULLY–she may get that feeling from a 5 and not a 9. In other words, the 5 may wake up her who-ha, while the 9 puts it to sleep. AttracTION. AttracTIVENESS. Two different things for some people.

      1. 29.3.1
        Karmic Equation

        Numbers are just a shorthand to describe physical attractiveness, not all the intangibles that go into “attraction.”

        While YOUR 10 may be different than MY 10, we both have people we view as 10s 🙂 — And we all have people whom we view as 5s.

        So Adrian’s question can be answered by any person who understands relative comparisons, even using their own personal standard.

        For example, lookswise, I think Pierce Brosnan, Chris Hemsworth, and Gerard Butler are all 10s, but they are obviously handsome in very different ways. However, I think Bill Gates is “below average” and Mike Zuckerberg is “average”. Other women may believe the opposite. That’s ok.

        When Adrian and I ask or answer questions based on a person’s number, it assumes that the person uses their personal scale.

        And Adrian’s dilemma is that, as a man, it just does not compute for him how something that is not physically attractive, e.g., money or success, can make a man more attractive to women, since men ONLY rate on the physical (well, they do have a crazy scale, but crazy rating is independent of the physical and doesn’t increase or decrease a woman’s physical rating). The crazy rating DOES affect her relationship value though.

        Hey, maybe I’m onto something here, Adrian.

        Maybe that’s the answer. While a woman’s “craziness” rating may not affect how a man rates her physically, her craziness rating may affect his consideration of her as a long-term mate. For example, while most might be fine with a 10, crazy woman being his girlfriend (think stripper), but if he wants children someday, he may not ever consider marrying her since he doesn’t want a crazy wife or a crazy woman to be the mother of his children.

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          KE,

          After years of careful observation, I have concluded that when it comes to initially evaluating women, men have both a “Hotness” scale and a “Crazy” scale.  In general the more hot the woman is, the more crazy they will overlook or tolerate.

          When my older son was a senior in high school, he dated a crazy girl.  She was cute and thin, but not a 9 or 10.  They did a lot of stupid stuff together like ditching class and wild partying.  The girl’s mother was certifiable.  Those were not fun months when I learned that apparently a moderate amount of hot makes up for a crap load of crazy,

          My brother had a several year live in relationship with his nut job. She had a plain face, but a decent figure.  Shockingly (not) she also had a crazy mother.  For some reason she rated high on my brother’s hot scale so the crazy, along with a big dose of stupid, were excused.  If I had the proverbial dime for every time a family member or close friend of his said, “I don’t know what he sees in her,” I’d be rich.

          I’ve talked to both guys about those women, now safely years in the past.  They both self-rated their ex-girlfriends as having been extremely hot when they met them.  They overlooked bad behavior and signs of instability, and in my brother’s exes case, a total lack of common sense, because they were so thrilled to be with a hot woman.  It was a big learning experience for both of them.!

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          I should add:

          Both my son and brother said that at the time the relationships started, if they had the women lower on the hotness scale, they would have walked away once signs of craziness started emerging.

        3. Karmic Equation

          Hi GWTF,

          I was educated in that hot/crazy scale by this hilarious, and right on the money, video. LMAO

          The Hot/Crazy Matrix video

          All women should aim to become the Unicorn.

          However, if she knows she’s crazy, she’s got to become hot enough to offset it. lol

           

        4. Christine

          Do you think that’s the case for all men, or just younger ones–in willing to tolerate a ton of crazy for “hot”?

          I recall that in some comment somewhere, Evan stated that at a certain age, men want “easy” (or something to that effect–correct me if I’m misquoting you Evan).

          I wonder if that’s true, that after going through so many drama queens (and with age), men burn out from drama.

          Just anecdotally, my guy (early 40s), my brother-in-law (also early 40s) and my male friends (in their 30s) all dated “hot but crazy” women before.  However, I notice that these relationships occurred when they were younger, in their 20s to early 30s–but not in their more recent years.  In fact, my guy still marvels at how “easy” our relationship is and really appreciates it.

        5. Adrian

          Hi Karmic Equation,

          I completely agree with how we use numbers. Outside of physical attractiveness, it is useless (maybe that is why more men use it).

          And you are right, I am still struggling to understand the why women who are 7s and above would date a rich 5.

          …    …   …

          Yup! All men I know would sleep with a woman who is crazy but hot in a heartbeat (yes men would sleep with a unattractive women in a heartbeat also, but he wouldn’t be seen in public with her), but the higher her craziness level, the lower the chance he would officially date or commit to her.

        6. Karmic Equation

          Christine wrote:

          Do you think that’s the case for all men, or just younger ones–in willing to tolerate a ton of crazy for “hot”?

          Well, my un-politically correct hypothesis is that most hot women in their 20s are crazy. Because they can get away with it.

          If your guy and male friends and in-laws, now in their 40s, were still dating women in their 20s, you could say they’re willing to tolerate their crazy because they’re still infatuated with the kind of hotness only 20-somethings can provide.

          Even though many women in their 30s and 40s can be hot, they’re not as hot as they were in their 20s (excepting yours truly, lol. I was never ever ever called hot by anyone when I was in my 20s, but a lot men my age and older call me hot now, go figure).

          And I think some to a lot of craziness in women disappear when she ages/matures. A lot of craziness in women are brought about by insecurities. So as she ages, she either grows out of them or makes peace with them, and thus becomes less crazy.

          However, a woman in her 40s who’s not aging gracefully, and/or not gracefully accepting that she’s aging and no longer able to “control” men as she used to be able to control them when she was able to in her 20s–she’s probably going to be the kind of crazy that men in their 40s avoid. She’s not hot enough to justify her crazy. In other words, if men in their 40s wanted to deal with a woman’s crazy, he’d date a 20 yo hot/crazy, not a 40 yo not-as-hot/but just as crazy.

          In other words, all crazy being equal, date the younger crazy. lol

        7. Adrian

          Hi Christine,

          It could also be that as men age their sexual market value goes down. A man who could get the hot woman in his 20s now struggles to get a hot women in his 40s.

          So maybe as men age they become more realistic about the level of woman they can attract, plus most men don’t want to date crazy long term, just sleep with them. So maybe as guys age, they looking for more long-term women.

        8. Emily, the original

          KE,

          They overlooked bad behavior and signs of instability, and in my brother’s exes case, a total lack of common sense, because they were so thrilled to be with a hot woman.  It was a big learning experience for both of them.!

          But that ‘s my whole point. You described the woman your brother thought was hot as very average. But something about her lit him up. AND IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HER NUMBER. He felt something for her and he went for it. He didn’t analyze and dissect it to death and determine she was a 5 but .. wait … she has a good-paying job so that makes her a 6 … but wait … she has a kid so she’s really a 5.15 …

        9. Emily, the original

          Sorry. Meant that for GoWiththeFlow

        10. Emily, the original

          Christine,

          Do you think that’s the case for all men, or just younger ones–in willing to tolerate a ton of crazy for “hot”?

          The hot + crazy mix is supposed to be great in bed. There’s a whole 30 Rock episode dedicated to it.

        11. GoWiththeFlow

          Christine,

          I think younger men are more susceptible to excusing the crazy for hot dynamic.  Then they get burned and start modifying behavior. Usually in, she’s hot!  But I’m not going to lose my head or my heart until I see proof of saneness.

          Interestingly, my son’s subsequent long term girlfriend was not as pretty at the crazy one.  My son had friends comment to him that basically he was dating below himself in the looks department.  But he told me she was fun and sweet, and had a life plan (not just a plan to party).

          my brother is in his mid 40s and has been with his fiancé for about 3 years.  He has retained a higher SMV than his peers because he takes care of himself (6 pack abs) dresses well, has a really cool high paying job, and he’s financially stable.  His fiancé is 12 years younger than him is pretty and has a body to die for.  She would be a catch to guys her own age but she’s with my brother because she’s an old soul and doesn’t want kids so they align well.  She is better looking than the nut job.  I think my brother had low self esteem when he was with the crazy girl.  That relationship did a number on his head, and it took awhile for him to recover.  He was always cautious about crazy afterwards.

          Just a note on crazy:  Some people may be clinically crazy.  If you are involved with someone crazy, they may have untreated bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, or they could be sociopaths.  Cross cultural incidence of sociopaths is that they make up 2% of the population.  Not sure of the statistics on the others, but the idea is that some unsuspecting sane person is out on a date with a crazy one right now.  Borderline women have a tendency to get into relationships with narcissistic men, so at least that’s two crazies removing themselves from the dating pool.

          There’s an excellent book on everyday sociopaths by Martha Stoudt called The Sociopath Next Door.  It’s an eye opening short read, and it will recognize people you know!

        12. Karmic Equation

          GWTF’s brother was rating on HIS subjective scale. She was HIS type of hot, but other people didn’t see it on the objective scale.

          When I first met my bf, he told me about the crazy stuff his ex did. He kind of unloaded the first night we slept together. Some women would have been turned off by this. But I saw it as something he had kept bottled up for a long time and couldn’t tell other people, and he was relieved to finally tell someone of his ordeal.

          At the end of his unloading, I asked in a puzzled way. “Yeah that was pretty crazy behavior. The only way that it would make sense to me for you putting up with that kind of crazy is if she was really hot. Was she?”

          His reply was quite diplomatic, “To ME she was hot.” Which was an answer but not really an answer, right? But it pretty much aligns with what GWTF’s brother meant.

          BTW, I found out later from a mutual friend that my bf’s ex “looked like his sister.” And just for clarity, I asked this mutual friend, “So, was she hot though?” He said, “No. Your bf as woman is not a good looking woman.”

          I gave that friend a big kiss on the cheek.

        13. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          I think my assessment of my brother’s and son’s girlfriend’s hotness as being lower than the guys thought it was is because women judge looks more harshly than men do.

          Evan had a post about how OKCupid ran some data that showed women judged 80% of men to be below average in looks where men accurately assessed women’s looks.  I often tell men that the multi-billon dollar cosmetics and fashio industries are evidence of women trying to meet men’s beauty expectations.  The men usually counter that by saying that they don’t require all of the makeup and high fashion to find women attractive (they actually would like less makeup, and don’t give a damn about purses).  They say that’s what women do to impress other women.

          I think that people, in general, have universal beauty concepts, but they also have individual preferences.  Virtually all people would say that Beyoncé, Jennifer Lawrence, and Adriana Lima are extremely attractive.  But I think most men would prefer one over the other two with the caveat that they wouldn’t turn any of them down, LOL.

          As far as numbers go, for both my brother and my son, their girlfriend’s looks fell into their preferences, so while I (in my overly judgemental way) would say my brother’s ex was a 6, to him she was an 8+ because he has a preference for her body type and likes women with long hair who use minimal makeup.  It’s the whole love map concept.  But, now way in hell did my brother say she was a 6, but he was giving her extra personality or job points.

        14. Christine

          Thanks everyone for your responses!  I was just wondering about that, and you all have given me a lot of food for thought.  I think it may be some combination of all of these things. I personally (foolishly) went for hot bad boys when I was younger, but really did grow out of it when I got burned one too many times.  I like to think that with more life experience and maturity, people (both men and women) tend to learn that no amount of hot can compensate for crazy!  (at least not for anything long term)

          GoWithTheFlow, you’re preaching to the choir–I’ve read that book and it’s excellent!

           

        15. Emily, the original

          GoWithTheFlow,

          As far as numbers go, for both my brother and my son, their girlfriend’s looks fell into their preferences, so while I (in my overly judgmental way) would say my brother’s ex was a 6, to him she was an 8+

          But is that how went around thinking about her? I have never in my life meet someone I was interested in and thought, “Wow, he is sold 8.2!”

        16. Emily, the original

          Not “sold” but “solid”

        17. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          Guys rate girls on looks almost instantaneously.  It’s hard wired in to them or very strong very early socialization.

          I think you are falling into the trap where you have certain thought and behavioral patterns and want to assume others process and gather information and express it the same way you do.  So while you don’t make snap SMV decisions about men based on only one parameter, looks, most men do.

        18. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          When I first met my bf, he told me about the crazy stuff his ex did.  …  At the end of his unloading, I asked in a puzzled way. “Yeah that was pretty crazy behavior. The only way that it would make sense to me for you putting up with that kind of crazy is if she was really hot. Was she?”

          The problem with these kinds of crazy relationships is that they tend to hang in one’s psyche. Not because they are good or healthy but because they are intense or press all one’s psychological buttons. Most people grow up a bit and move on to something … I don’t want to say less exciting … but more adult.

        19. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow

          Guys rate girls on looks almost instantaneously.

          Yeah, I get that, and some women rate men on looks instantaneously, too. My point was that someone’s “objective” rating or SMV or rank in terms of how aesthetically attractive he/she is is only a small part of what makes up physical attraction. Physical attraction is an energy, a feeling, how drawn to someone you feel, and if people were only attracted to those who placed highest on the objective scale, the human race would die out.

        20. Caroline

          Ladies and Mr. Adrian- I really enjoyed all the input you’ve given especially the crazy hot scale:)

          @Christine- about the men wanting easier relationships as they age. It could be that as women age they finally assert what they want and need. I read somewhere that many ladies don’t know themselves and try to be the “perfect” girl in order to attract a man. She doesn’t speak up when something bothers her that her guy does or tells him what she really wants so as not to “rock the boat”. This ultimately ends up in bitterness and frustration so she blows up at him- labeling her as crazy. So many young girls are furiously trying to be something theyre not.

          Btw-my youngest has dated more than one hot/crazy girl. I cracked up when gwtf mentioned the crazy mom. My son’s crazy girlfriend came over in the wee hours of the morning to break up with him. She had put all the little mementos she had collected from their dating (ticket stubs, stuffed teddy bear, a pressed rose, etc) into a garbage bag. She rang the doorbell and I shuffled to the door in my robe half awake to have her storm in and throw it all at him in bed. It was so weird- I looked out the front door and saw her mother waiting for her behind the steering wheel. I asked his girlfriend why her mom had driven her incredulously- she answered because it was after 12 (driving restriction in our state when you’re 16). ?!?! What kinda parent helps with such craziness? Our whole family had to block her telephone number. My other son half kids that she and her family ought to have a reality show.

        21. Caroline

          I didn’t explain that well. I think women can be taught to be too amenable. I thought it was just those of us “older” ladies and our religious upbringing but it may still be pretty prevalent today.

        22. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          I agree with Theo and Caroline that the human race doesn’t die out because, outside of a desire to get physical with the most attractive people that we can, we have a concurrent drive to pair bond.  At some point, after dealing with the reality (for most of us 6.5 and below) that we’re NOT getting the highly desireables of the opposite sex, we adjust our expectations.  Looks are going to fade, and it’s the shared experiences and companionate love that glue people together into their old age.

          Doesn’t mean we go blind 😉   I still think Kit Harington, Sebastian Stan, and someone more age appropriate, Hugh Jackman, are super hot, but they’re fantasy.  Even the more real men around me that are 8s and above I disregard as potential partners.  Most 7s, too. I learned in high school (and relearned in my early 30s) that those men have so many women in their orbit, that just on the #s/probability line, it’s a waste of time.  It’s more fun to be with someone where there is reciprocal attraction.  It’s along the lines of a bird in the hand being worth more than two in a tree.

          @ Caroline,

          OMG on the mom enabling her daughter’s drama.  No way would I ever do that!

          I think the mom of my son’s crazy ex was a borderline personality (which is why I mentioned the clinically crazy stuff).  Her daughter was likely a BPD in training.

          My son was held back a year in elementary school, so he was an 18 year old senior.  The girl was a 15-16 year old sophomore.  Her mom would do stuff like call me if my son was 5 minutes late dropping her off at home and say, “I could have your son arrested right now.”

          Her repeated threats were scary enough that I asked our family attorney about it.  He assured me that our state law for statutory rape (yes, I assumed they were doing the deed) or contributing to a minor’s delinquency had a 3 year age span exemption for teens as well as a “close association” clause, that basically would cover him since he was a classmate of hers.  I certainly never wanted to test how those laws get applied IRL!  The day they broke up was a really good day for our family.

        23. GoWiththeFlow

          KK & Tom10,

          While I think some things like money and social status may compensate for less than great looks in a man, this can be very limited.

          Usually when people give an example where an old ugly guy winds up with a young gorgeous woman, the man is a rich celebrity or business tycoon.  They have an extreme amount of wealth and social cred that is way beyond what the masses will ever have, so I don’t think their experience is easily extropolated down to the more numerous “every day” high value men who have 6 figure jobs.

          Past a certain age, most single women can support themselves at a comfortable level.  Even if they’re not getting rich,  a future husband’s salary isn’t the only determining factor in what the couple’s financial status will be.  A man’s salary can’t compensate for physical attractiveness like it could 60-70 years ago.

          Also, compared to 60-70 years ago, women are putting a higher priority on sexual compatability, of which attraction to a partner is a key component.

          Not many highly attractive women with $65,000/year salaries are going to choose a much older, chubby plain guy with a $150,000 salary over a similar age, fit attractive man with a $72,0000 salary.

        24. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          It’s a hazard of life that people you don’t find attractive will be attracted to you 😉  It happens to all of us.  When I was in my mid-30s two different men in their mid to late 50s, who looked older than their age (one with a ginormous pot belly) with tons of personal baggage were interested in me.  Nope, nope, nope.

          Once you get past a certain age, you no longer are surrounded by single people and have to be creative and proactive to increase your chances of finding someone.  And you still may not meet anyone.

          It can be hard out there and you aren’t alone.  Christine, KArmic, SMC, and Sparkling Emerald all met someone despite the limitations of a small pool of potential partners.  I look to them for inspiration 🙂

        25. SparklingEmerald

          GWTF said somewhere in this long sub thread

          “It can be hard out there and you aren’t alone.  Christine, KArmic, SMC, and Sparkling Emerald all met someone despite the limitations of a small pool of potential partners.  I look to them for inspiration ”

          Hi Go with the Flow – Now that I am happily engaged,  I don’t come around this board much., but I do occasionally lurk here, or get an e-mail from this blog.  When ever I see a kind remark or sincere question thrown my way, I will respond though.

          I am glad you have found some inspiration in my comments.  I guess I am just a hopeless romantic, and I would like to see everyone in the whole world happily in love,  in truly wonderful relationships.  It makes me happy to hear that something  I shared here gives someone hope and inspiration.

          I was only looking for a boyfriend to fall in love with.  I went back and forth on marriage being out of the question, to marriage being a possible option but not a necessity.  I met the most wonderful man a year and a half ago, at age 59.   Much to my surprise and delight, we will be getting married early next year.  We have a very happy relationship, we treat each other well, and I just feel so cherished with him.  Now I can’t imagine my life without him, and I just want to spend the rest of my life making him as happy as he made me.

          So if a 61 year old, twice divorced woman, can look for a boyfriend and end up finding a husband than I guess anything is possible.  The search for the “needle in a haystack” can be tiresome and frustrating process, that’s for sure, but once you find that needle, it makes it all worthwhile.

        26. Evan Marc Katz

          Congratulations! That’s amazing news! We’ve been through a lot together, so I take a personal interest in your success. If you go back and look at your early posts, you will hear a VERY different woman than the one who is writing this today – much more cynical and quick to anger at me. I couldn’t be more thrilled that one of my most loyal readers/customers found a husband after so much trial and error. Mazel tov.

        27. GoWiththeFlow

          Sparkling Emerald,

          Congratulations!  I hope you and your hubby to be have many happy years together.

          BTW, I suspect we may live nearby.  I’m in the Phoenix area.

          I dropped out of the dating scene several years ago.  I was beyond frustrated and needed a break.  If someone would ask me why I’m not married, I would say, “When men look for a wife I’m not what they have in mind.”

          About a year ago, I decided than I didn’t want to give up on finding someone.  And frankly, I really miss sex 😉  In the meantime I wound up in discussions with my nieces and friends’ daughters, all in their 20s, and would advise them to get out of dead end relationships and dump men who mistreated them so they could find the right guy while they are still young and have lots of options.

          Among other sources on the Internet, I found Evan’s blog, and his is the one I keep  coming back to.  I’m in the crawl stage and have to learn to walk and then run.  Right now I want to date with the goal of having a nice boyfriend.  It’s very nice to hear that someone once had the same goals, met and even surpassed them!

        28. SparklingEmerald

          Thanks Evan ! 🙂

           

        29. GoWiththeFlow

          Evan,

          Just finished registration 🙂

        30. SparklingEmerald

          GoWiththeFlow said ” Sparkling Emerald, Congratulations!  I hope you and your hubby to be have many happy years together.”

          ___________________________________________

          Thank you too GWTF.  Have fun at Love U, hope you graduate with flying colors, a revived love life, and who knows, maybe even your M.R.S. degree.

      2. 29.3.2
        Adrian

        Hi Emily,

        Karmic Equation explained it best. Numbers just help us visualize. Plus humans like to brag. Maybe women can brag and say I am dating a doctor who graduated from Harvard and it would impress other women, but for all the men I know that would mean nothing.

        If I said I am dating a woman who is a 9! Guys wouldn’t care if she worked as a street sweeper, she is HOT!

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          The majority of people pair up with people who are similar in levels of attractiveness, near the same age, and have similar levels of education and social standing.  Assortive mating is the norm.  If you are seeing a very ugly man with a very beautiful woman, it may be an exchange of beauty for looks and status.  I would propose that the reason you notice it is because it does not happen very often.

        2. Emily, the original

          Adrian,

          If I said I am dating a woman who is a 9! Guys wouldn’t care if she worked as a street sweeper, she is HOT!

          Screw all that. Screw what your friends think and what society tells you is the right woman for you to date. You write a lot about how you go on dates with women who feel an attraction for you but the feeling is not mutual on your part. So find the woman who makes race cars burn rubber in your pants! (To borrow a Prince line). Then all this numbers crap won’t mean diddly …

        3. Adrian

          Hi GoWithTheFlow,

          When you mentioned you spilled sprite on your laptop it reminded me of the time mine fell into the bathroom sink under running water (I like to listen to music as I brush my teeth). I hate writing or typing on cell phones, so I feel your pain.

          …      …      …

          Do you think people in dating don’t see their own flaws or are just so use to getting attention from the opposite sex that they don’t see their flaws as a deal breaker?

          …   …   …

          In response to your other comment, why do you think women continue to date guys who are selfish in bed? After giving a guy oral sex, he fails to reciprocate, you talk to him about it. If he does it again, why not just dump him?

          Do you believe it is because society looks down upon women who dump “great” boyfriends whose only flaw is that they are bad in bed? Or do you believe it is because these women are victims of the scarcity mentality; they don’t believe they will find better.

           

          I remember a guy (he was the stereotypical popular frat boy jock with a lot of girls attracted to him) who once had a very attractive girl that was really into him, they had finally had sex and then he dumped her. When I asked why he said because she was a dead fish in bed. He did all the work and she just laid their receiving.

          I think people with lots of options don’t feel the need to wait for a partner to get better sexually when they can find someone new easier. I also believe that was the point of this podcast, if you are dating someone with many options, how long do women think he will wait before he gets tired of doing all the giving?

           

        4. CaliforniaGirl

          Women who stay with guys who are bad in bed, stay with them for other and usually materialistic reasons. Or she doesn’t care about sex and doesn’t enjoy it. That’s it. No other reasons.

           

        5. Caroline

          Adrian- I think Theo explained it best in an earlier comment. I think most of us learn with each relationship and it unfolds unnaturally. I think we instinctively know / are attracted to those with similar level of attractiveness and then our mutual upbringing, values, education cement it. It’s really easy to over think it when you’re online dating. It may just be seemingly “limitless” possibilities or the fact that most folks of course put their best pic up online and them not turning up resembling it. When you meet in person, it’s incredible how we are able to assess body language, openness, personality pretty quickly. Having a guy walk over and introduce himself is so powerful. You’ve pretty much passed the physical test if he’s done that. It’s so much easier to talk, open up and flirt. There’s so much pressure you’re gonna somehow disappoint when you first go offline.

        6. Tom10

           
          @ Caroline
           
          “I think we instinctively know / are attracted to those with similar level of attractiveness and then our mutual upbringing, values, education cement”
           
           
           
          I totally disagree Caroline; I think we all want a higher level attractiveness than ourselves, but life soon puts us in our place and forces us to be more realistic.
           
           
           
          For women read Christine’s comment above:
           
          “I personally (foolishly) went for hot bad boys when I was younger, but really did grow out of it when I got burned one too many times.”
           
           
           
          And for men, well, women who consider themselves more attractive than us won’t sleep with us. Therefore, we can either pine away for the hot women who won’t sleep with us, or we can focus on the women who will sleep with us.
           
           
           
          Of course, many people refuse to accept this reality, and many of those post on this blog!

        7. KK

          I disagree, Tom10. A man that has any number of things going for him can easily get a woman who is more attractive than he is.

        8. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          I think people don’t appreciate the extent of their flaws and the fact that they get some takers in the dating market keeps them in denial.  These takers don’t consider the flaw a deal killer even though a majority of people would.  For instance in Z’s case, her quickness to snap at things lost her guys.  Then she had a few takers that didn’t see that a a big deal.  But when a big eruption happened, and Z didn’t see where her “temper” was a serious issues because she had guys who accepted the milder form of it.

          Z is an extreme case.  I think the way it plays out in most people is that if they get a few boyfriends/girlfriends who deal with their  flaw–the quick temper–so they don’t realize many more are walking away because of it.  If they honestly assessed and dealt with their flaw, they would potentially get and keep many more partners.

          ________________________________

          As far as grown women putting up with lazy lovers who don’t reciprocate pleasure, I think it has to do with girls being conditioned to be pleasers when they first become sexually active.

          In my generation of women (coming of age in the mid to late 1980s) it was a common experience to be making out with a guy and then a hand would appear on the back of your head or neck and your head would wind up near the guy’s crotch.  I don’t know of any teen girl or young woman who similarity would guide a guy’s head down between her legs in that way.  A pretty blunt nonverbal,  “hey do this for me.”

          Almost always, girls wind up giving blow jobs before a guy ever goes down on them.  It sounds like this imbalance has gotten way worse sinceI was young.  My son is in his early 30s and said he has had twice as many blow job only partners as the-whole-enchilada partners, with most of the BJ only experiences being in high school and college.

          In Girls & Sex, the book I mentioned previously,  Orenstein theorizes that the number of teens engaging in intercourse (and resultant teen pregnancies) are going down because girls are blowing guys instead.  In interviews with young women, the girls said they were doing this to “improve the relationship” and because it was expected of them.  The dynamic they are learning is to please the guys first and then maybe they will please you.  Our atrocious shame based, plumbing lessons that we call sex education also doesn’t do anything to teach girls that sex can be mutually satisfying and that they deserve physical pleasure as well.

          Luckily young men grow and learn and the adult sex most women get is very pleasurable and satisfying.  But those, please him fist lessons and expectations can still be in place, and if other parts of a relationship are good enough, a woman will deal with a more guy sided sex life since it’s not an unfamiliar dynamic.

        9. Karmic Equation

          Emily wrote:

          “Screw all that. Screw what your friends think and what society tells you is the right woman for you to date.”

          I believe women suffer from this kind of peer pressure more than men. Men date whom they find attractive. Women date for a lot of other reasons, of which attractiveness is only one factor.

          Getting back to the numbers scale…

          I think the scale serves a useful purpose for women, if she’s self-aware…in that if she is very honest about her objective rating in men’s eyes, it’s more difficult for men to “use” her.

          What I mean by this is…

          Let’s say a woman is objectively a “5” but she believes she’s objectively an “8” — this woman is going to get burned by 8 and above guys whom she might manage to date.

          If we agree that most people want to date above their own league, and that most men will “slum” and sleep with, but rarely, if ever, commit to, a woman lower than his league, then this “5” woman is going to get pumped and dumped and get hurt quite often by the 8’s she manages to date.

          Now if this 5 woman knows she’s a 5, then when an 8 approaches her (or more likely when she approaches the 8), she knows she’s trying to punch above her weight class and that anything that results will not likely last. If she’s a confident 5, she knows before she does the deed that that no relationship will be the result, and she can make a rational decision if she wants to have sex or not with the 8 when he makes his move. But a 5 woman who deludes herself into believing she’s an 8, that woman is going to get hurt, embittered, etc., when things don’t work out.

          I’m not saying this to diss women. But I believe if women are unflinchingly honest with themselves about their objective rating, they will better understand dating and sex and the possible outcomes for sleeping with a man “above her league”. Additionally, once she accepts her objective rating, then instead of turning down dates with men in her own league, she might actually accept them…and be less likely to get hurt or used in the process…and more likely to find lasting love.

          In other words, she should proactively try to assortatively mate, instead being forced to do so because of bad dating outcomes. And knowing and accepting one’s objective rating facilitates assortative mating, imo.

           

        10. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow,

          At some point, after dealing with the reality (for most of us 6.5 and below) that we’re NOT getting the highly desireables of the opposite sex, we adjust our expectations.  

          Idk. Maybe I’m naive or a romantic or in denial or have unknowingly been practicing assortative mating, but I can think of 3 guys I spent time with who I was extremely attracted to, and I didn’t think of them as an adjustment to my expectations even though, for the most part, they were average to slightly above average looking. I’m not crazy. I’m not waiting for Johnny Depp to show up, but I don’t spend time with someone I am not really into.

          But I met those guys at 25, 28 and 34. One of the problems I’m having now that I am in my mid-40s is that a major compromise would be necessary if I accepted dates with the men who have recently asked me out. I’m talking about men 3 times my size. Or men who still live at home with their mothers. 

          It’s along the lines of a bird in the hand being worth more than two in a tree.

          I will have to respectfully disagree. I would rather go without.

        11. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          In other words, she should proactively try to assortatively mate, instead being forced to do so because of bad dating outcomes. And knowing and accepting one’s objective rating facilitates assortative mating, imo.

          I think another factor may be one’s environment. I live in a small time, and the pickins are slim. Sometimes (and I don’t mean for this to sound bitchy) the options are so bad, the only choice is not to choose. And then I guess the next step would be to get more proactive to locate more options.

           

        12. Caroline

          Hi Tom10-thAnks for the reply:).  I do believe you can be temporarily blinded at different times in your life so to speak.Christine noted that it was a journey and she learned the payoff to dating those hot guys wasn’t the relationship she desired. I think when one gets back into the dating pool after a divirce/breakup you can waaayy overestimate your smv .   I think the mere fact that some of us are on the blog points to the likelihood we may have experienced this. Not an insult- hey we are all on our own an little journey trying to learn:).  What I was referring to was the successfully married/long term relationships I know- the couples match. Look in the engagement announcements in the Sunday paper; rarely do you see a couple where their relative attractiveness is greatly separated by this scale of 1-10.  Also, I’ve been a little caught off guard when a guy has approached me who significantly more attractive. This happened to me in high school and I felt like I was being “punked”! Undoubtedly my insecurity showing. Which according to Evan’s little test; a good number of we ladies weren’t too confident at times in our lives. It’s not that I doubt that people overestimate their smv- in fact most of y s think we are 7s according to a study I’ve seen. I think it’s more what about who you in reality pair yourself off with.

        13. Karmic Equation

          Hi Emily,

          Yeah, if you live in a small town, then could definitely decrease your options.

          If you can’t (or won’t) move, you need to increase the distance you’re willing travel to date/have relationship…and hope that he is willing to do the same for a relationship. Men might travel a bit for dates and potential action. But one he’s gotten the action, the LDR thing may become his excuse to end (or not begin) a relationship.

        14. Christine

          Emily, just to give you some encouragement–I found love in a small town!  I know what you mean about the pickings being slim.  Hey, I live in a town where most people seem to be married (and somehow found a single guy compatible with me).  But just remember that you only need one (unless you want a whole harem of men LOL) Surely there might be one guy out there you might like.

          There are both advantages and downsides to small town dating.  On one hand, you do tend to have less selection, as you already know.  On the other hand, you will also have less competition as well.

          I know some people who moved to a large city, in part, to find love.  However, dating isn’t so easy in large cities either.  I’ve heard the competition can be fierce.  In fact, those people warned me to only move because I really liked the city itself (i.e. for its great restaurants, culture, etc.)–but not specifically to find love.  In hindsight, I’m glad I didn’t move because my love turned out to live in my town, just ten minutes away from me.

          If the pickings really are that slim it might be worth your while to move–but just be aware that big cities don’t guarantee love either.  Unfortunately, dating is just tough everywhere

        15. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow: Once you get past a certain age, you no longer are surrounded by single people and have to be creative and proactive to increase your chances of finding someone.

          Agreed. I have to get my butt out of the house more.

          GoWiththeFlow: It’s a hazard of life that people you don’t find attractive will be attracted to you  

          I don’t mind being approached and I try to be pleasant, but ONE attempt by a man to make his interest known should be enough, right? I don’t need pick up lines thrown out at me four or fives times in a short conversation if I don’t respond to the initial one. I want to say, “I got it the FIRST time, dude.”

           

          Karmic Equation: Yeah, if you live in a small town, then could definitely decrease your options.

          I am looking for a job and, so far, most of what I have applied for is in fairly big cities, so that may change.

           

          Christine: Just to give you some encouragement–I found love in a small town!

          Congrats! I’m glad you met someone. A bigger town, as you pointed out, has more options, but then …. those options have more options!

           

      3. 29.3.3
        Christine

        Emily, thanks for that comment.  It helps explain why me and my guy both had a difficult time getting over some toxic exes before, even while knowing on a rational level that they were no good for us at all.  But we recognize now, how unhealthy those relationships were and are ready to move on to a healthier future with one another.

        Caroline, maybe that can be part of it too.  I know that I have a tendency to repress things too much, but really am working on it and am getting better at asserting my needs.  Repressing just builds up the frustration and then, you really WILL feel crazy later!

        1. Christine

          BTW, thanks Tom10.  I’ve learned the hard way that sometimes, even when we can be with someone “hotter” than us–that doesn’t always mean we should!  I can only speak for myself but the bad boys I dated before were only “hot” because all of their good qualities were only on the outside.

          Now, they’re just anecdotes I tell my guy, to let him know how young and foolish I once was…and how lucky he is to have met a (relatively) wiser version of me now. 🙂

           

      4. 29.3.4
        Adrian

        Hi Emily,

        Everyone else has already given good explanations of the numbers thing.

        I would just like to add that  if a man who was a 3 in looks saw a woman who was a 5 he would think she was the hottest thing! When he would tell this to his other male friend who is maybe a 7 in looks, the guy would look at him like he is crazy (I have witnessed this more times than you can believe).

         

        The point is, they both know she is no supermodel, but each person’s individual level of attractiveness plays a part as well. I think this may be another reason to account for why we see people who we consider averagely attractive with people whom we think aren’t as attractive.

        1. KK

          Hi Adrian,  I agree with you in theory, but I wonder how often it’s true in reality. For instance, I don’t want to name names but… Obsidian (Lol) for example, has complained on here profusely about his low MV, yet insists he would rather be alone if he can’t get that elusive 9/10.

        2. Adrian

          Hi KK,

          You do realize that when you say certain names out loud those entities appear don’t you? (^_^)

          _____

          The one whose name you speak of is a rare case from my experience. Most people don’t like being alone, I believe that it was stated that “the person whom we shouldn’t mention” was about a 4 in looks, add in the fact that he is under 5’8 in height and he SMV goes down to about a 3.

          Most 3 would walk the 7 seas (or move to a 3rd world country) for a chance to date a quality 5 or 6 in looks.  Of course I do have a disclaimer. I know very little about MGTOW, red pills and the like, or their female equivalent.

          But I would guess that if you added the general bitterness of some of those men and women on top of their physical turn offs, their level would go down about a 1.

          I also think that because of all the media exposure, we focus too much on men and women who are 7 and above in looks. In real life, a banker who is a 3 in looks dating a woman who is an accountant and a 5 in looks happens often but is rarely spoken of because they are both below a 7.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          Their bitterness makes them undateable.  They’re no longer on the RMV scale because you can’t be on the scale when no one wants a relationship with you.

          The flip side would be a woman deemed unfu^€£able.  She’s no longer on the SMV scale because no one wants sex from her.

          I am on single mom forums, and talk to many women thinking about giving up on ever getting married and going ahead with adopting or having kids on there own. By and large, they’ve dropped out of the dating world to focus on their kids.  They may have regrets about never getting married, but they are’t posting angry diatribes about how men suck and “the game” is rigged, and how men will be sorry for causing it to happen.

          Yet here, intermittently, we get posters who’s posts can be summarized as:  “Im going to leave if you women don’t shape up and unrig the game!  Really you women will be sorry when I’m gone!  Society will fail without me!  Anyone going to stop me?  I’m seriously going to leave now!

    4. 29.4
      Emily, the original

      Adrian,

      Conclusion: When you see a 9 woman with a 5 man, you can’t assume she’s made some kind of compromise and he must, for example, have money. She could be wildly attracted to him and getting the best sex of her life.

      1. 29.4.1
        Karmic Equation

        Of course she compromised, Emily. She traded in good looks for great sex.

        1. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          Of course she compromised, Emily. She traded in good looks for great sex.

          I don’t agree. She could think the 5 man was the cutest thing she’d seen in years and she could be really attracted to him, even if the outside world thought he was pretty average. She’s got a man she finds hot and the sex is great. How has she compromised?

        2. Karmic Equation

          Then the 5 man isn’t a 5 to that woman. He’s a 7 or whatever…to her.

          However, if you can concede that a “cute” guy to YOU but a “5” to the world may be cute to you, then you understand the rating system. lol

          Look at it this way, most German Shepherds are just majestically gorgeous dogs. Most Old English Bulldogs…are not. But OEB are definitely cute even though they can’t compare to the objective “handsomeness” of the GSD 🙂 In the attractiveness scale, a GSD would be 10, but the OEB probably a 5 or below. Doesn’t mean one can’t love the OEB.

          Nothing wrong with that.

        3. Karmic Equation

          Let’s argue a different way.

          Let’s say your 5 guy was awful in bed.

          Would you rather have an Adonis who was awful in bed or a 5 who was awful in bed?

          And if you had a choice, wouldn’t you rather have an Adonis who was great in bed, than a 5 who was great in bed?

          But YOUR Adonis may be a blonde, while MY Adonis could never be a blonde (except Chris Hemsworth, of course). That’s the subjective scale we’re talking about.

        4. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          And if you had a choice, wouldn’t you rather have an Adonis who was great in bed, than a 5 who was great in bed?

          I’d rather have the guy I was most attracted to. Sex is good when the attraction is good. His number is irrelevant to me.

          I’ve had sex with an Adonis. It was perfectly … adequate. My attraction for him was a level 5. The two guys I’ve had the best sex with were very average-looking. My attraction for them was a level 10. It’s not to say I couldn’t be highly attracted to an Adonis; it just hasn’t happened.

        5. Karmic Equation

          But how were their voices, Emily?

          Maybe your scale is voice-dependent?

          That’s the subjective scale.

          Objectively, you recognize they were not conventionally (aka “objectively”) good looking. But something else about them made them good looking to YOU.

          Goldie doesn’t post here anymore. But once I dissed Bill Gates because I thought (still think) he’s a below-average looking, and she say she found him very attractive. Some my “4” was her “8”.

          No need to defend the subjective scale. We all have them.

          We women just need to find men for whom WE (at whatever) size/shape we are) are their 7-10, as opposed to being their 1-6.

          That’s why I don’t approach men. I believe when a man makes the effort to approach, he’s declaring that I’m in his subjective 7-10 range. I do not delude myself into thinking I’m anybody’s objective 7-10 🙂

        6. Emily, the original

          Karmic Equation,

          But how were their voices, Emily? LOL I don’t remember their voices, to be honest. Just how it felt to be around them. One I knew 20 years ago. The other 10 years ago. The one from 20 years ago … we were in college. I’d go to his dorm room and sit on his bed. He’d be animated, walking around, talking about his day … And I couldn’t hear a word he was saying! All I could think was … COME OVER HERE!  🙂

          I agree with you. Bill Gates is by no means a handsome man. Neither is Mark Zuckerberg. Neither was Steve Jobs.

          I’ll approach men, but I try to be cognizant of what I am getting back. If he’s friendly but by no means flirty or not throwing anything out at me, I’ll leave him alone.

           

  29. 30
    CaliforniaGirl

    I know someone who works in a big matchmaking company and it’s not a sugar daddy style but they accept only men with good jobs and careers. The stories she tells about all these women who blow them on a first dates in a car or invite the guys over and trying to sleep with them. One guy told her that if he meets a woman who doesn’t offer to blow him in his car on a first date, he would marry her. All my guy friends say that if they go out with someone younger than 30, 95% she would suggest a bj in the car at the end of the evening. It’s LA, I don’t know, maybe specific for the area but women are doing it and a lot.

    1. 30.1
      Adreana

      “It’s LA, I don’t know, maybe specific for the area but women are doing it and a lot”.

      Yes, I’ve heard a lot about that too. Many of these men are so used to accepting  instant gratification, that the of  idea of waiting longer seems so bizarre and unnecessary. I think it’s important to be honest about these things and be with someone who’s more willing to move at the same pace…. Someone who’s more resereved about this isn’t going to be happy with someone who expects a bj the first month and vice versa. Instead of resenting each other  just find someone more compatible.

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